From smago@uga.edu Sun Feb 1 05:01:25 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:01:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: North American Systemic Functional Linguistics Association (NASFLA) Emergent Scholar Award In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: THIS IS A FORWARDED MESSAGE. PLEASE READ ITS CONTENTS CAREFULLY AND REPLY TO THE ORIGINAL SENDER RATHER THAN TO ME See attachment North American Systemic Functional Linguistics Association (NASFLA) Emerging Scholar Award General Description This award is given by NASFLA in recognition of a pre-tenure scholar who is in the first five years of her his/her career and who has made outstanding contributions to applied linguistics through use of systemic functional linguistics as a theoretical framework, an analytical tool, or pedagogical resource. An American Educational Research Association List If you need assistance with this list, please send an email to listadmin@aera.net. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NAFSLA Emergent Scholar Call.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 63305 bytes Desc: NAFSLA Emergent Scholar Call.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150201/c064ee43/attachment.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Feb 1 11:22:06 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 11:22:06 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Third Spaces as places of possibility. Adding Ardent's Voice Message-ID: Some may be interested in this article that I read as exploring third spaces, but did not use this term. However the focus is on creating "public spaces" in which to express one's voice. I will send one copy that is without my highlighting and the same copy with my marginalized comments. The first copy is highlighted. Third places as spaces of hybridity [both subjective, intersubjective, and including material contexts] are being explored. This article explores the "ethic" of expression and connects art and life. This is a possible way to enact a life narrative but only a way [see Charles Taylor on other versions of living ethical lives] However, I believe the questions generated in this article are similar to Kris and Zinchenko's explorations of third spaces Larry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FEBRUARY 1 2015 TAMBOUKOU MARIA Narrative Entanglements and Microsociology.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 962405 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150201/1618e641/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FEBRUARY 1 2015 TAMBOUKOU MARIA Narrative Entanglements and Microsociology.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 173587 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150201/1618e641/attachment-0003.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Feb 1 12:08:29 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 20:08:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: You find the darndest things on Face book In-Reply-To: <1422758490615.47721@unm.edu> References: <1422758490615.47721@unm.edu> Message-ID: It's alfalsism. On 1 February 2015 at 02:41, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > And now we will: > > shave his belly with a rusty razor! Early in the morning! > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Feb 1 12:14:56 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 20:14:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: You find the darndest things on Face book In-Reply-To: References: <1422758490615.47721@unm.edu> Message-ID: Or maybe not, looks like the falsies on urban dictionaries got there first. Anyway thanks for warning us about this Mike. Huw On 1 February 2015 at 20:08, Huw Lloyd wrote: > It's alfalsism. > > On 1 February 2015 at 02:41, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > >> And now we will: >> >> shave his belly with a rusty razor! Early in the morning! >> >> >> >> > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Feb 1 13:32:19 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 16:32:19 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Global Studies Conf. Call for Papers Message-ID: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
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From: Jerry Harris
Date:02/01/2015 4:27 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Allison Witt' , 'Aniruddha Mitra' , 'Chudi Uwazurike' , 'Cosme Perez' , 'Faranak Miraftab' , 'Gail Presby' , 'Isaias Rivera' , 'John Otieno Ouko' , 'Jose Moreno' , "'Joy M. Hylton'" , 'Karina Schneider' , 'Kathryn fuller' , 'Ken Salo' , 'MANUEL FREIRE' , 'Maria Cook' , 'Michael Curtin' , 'Milan Kreuzzieger' , 'Orlando Albornoz' , 'Robert Torres' , 'Ronald Aronson' , 'Shannon Drysdale Walsh' , 'Shivali Tukdeo' , 'William Mello'
Subject: Global Studies Conf. Call for Papers
Global Studies Association, 14th Annual Conference GLOBALIZATION: THE URBAN CRISIS AND ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY The University of Toledo Toledo, OH June 12 - 14, 2015 Sponsored by: College of Languages, Literature, and Social Sciences, President's Commission on Global Initiative, and Center for International Studies and Programs To submit a 100-word abstract or a panel idea, send it in the body of an email to Jerry Harris at gharris234@comcast.net by May 10, 2015. Please include your full name and affiliation. All presentation topics will be considered. See more information at http://www.net4dem.org/mayglobal Keynote Panels FRIDAY Special Film Screening of Shift Change Following discussion with directors Mellissa Young and Mark Dworkin Race and Class in the Solidarity Economy Jessica Gordon Nembhard Michael Peck Rob Witherell SATURDAY Economic Democracy as Political Strategy Carl Davidson David Schweickart Francis Shor Globalization and the Urban Industrial Crisis: Detroit, Chicago and Gary Frank Hammer Ruth Needleman Dan Swinney (Keynote biographies listed on the web site) From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Feb 1 16:43:32 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 17:43:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77E4C660-F53B-45CE-84D5-4C7533596262@gmail.com> Mike, ?Entanglement? is a great construal of my mind most of the time. I so much appreciate the external scaffolding of my piece of intersubjectivity. I am grateful for what?s left of this fragile connection between ?my" subjectivity and ?my? objectivity. Hey I came up with an interesting blending/compound: Geriat-tickle: seniorly humorous. Henry > On Jan 31, 2015, at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote:. > > Thank you for the video and for the reference to Vera's use of the term > "enlacement" to describe the relation of phylogeny and cultural history, > Henry. I have been accustomed to thinking in terms of "entanglement." What > I like about enlacement is the that it provides an aesthetic quality to the > their mutual engagement, and culture is all about aesthetics. > > Separately on the mobious bach > mike > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Larry, >> I guess it was you who got the Mobius strip into this thread a few days >> ago, which I geriatically and vaguely reacalled after my wife showed me >> earlier today the attached from Vimeo. Until now, I have never really >> understood where Bach?s Crab Cannon got its name. I love how the video >> makes that clear. Some years back a musician friend of mine told me that he >> saw his guitar fretboard like a mobius stip, no top or bottom, an Eternal >> Golden Thread, as Hofstadter would have it. Many years ago I remember Vera >> John Steiner's writing and talking about the INTERLACEMENT of biological >> and cultural factors in human development. How beautiful this cluster of >> metaphors. How generative. How creative. It just occurred to me that the >> efforts on another thread to create an architecture for a data base seem to >> be working for a mobius kind of seamlessness. Don?t bother stop me. It will >> all pass by tomorrow night. >> Henry >> >> http://vimeo.com/69715960 >> >> >> >> >>> On Jan 25, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his >>> chats with Schpet and Vygotsky. >>> Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning >>> of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding, >> and >>> interpretation. His conversation is in the form of a rejoinder [or >>> joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out >> their >>> mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word. >>> Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have >>> "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and >>> central quality. >>> >>> Zinchenko wrote: >>> "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a >> Mobius >>> strip. In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter >>> oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving >>> meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed >> into >>> each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have >> a >>> common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a >>> Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is >>> transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this >>> *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful >>> sign to sense makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was >> highly >>> productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to >> sense. *Such >>> a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228] >>> >>> I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius >>> strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of >>> horizons" >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you, Martin! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This is the information I have, Henry. >>>>> >>>>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical >>>> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984 >> (pp. >>>> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Martin, >>>>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and >>>> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his >>>> context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of >>>> hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was >>>> written? >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer < >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry >>>> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little >>>> background: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet. >>>>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that >> Shpet >>>> and >>>>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation". >>>>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet >>>> disagreed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph >>>>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the >> Approaches >>>> of L. >>>>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I >>>>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind. Yet, there is a >>>>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion. And it is hard to >>>>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr >>>> Potebnya. >>>>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various >>>>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky gave their preference >>>> to the >>>>>>>> word, although they understood it differently. Let us start from >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in >> thought >>>> is >>>>>>>> successive in language.* It would be possible to compare a thought >>>> with a >>>>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words. This is why the transition from >>>>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment* >>>> of a >>>>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word. On the next page, Vygotsky >>>> wrote, >>>>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the >>>> motivation of >>>>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.' If something >>>> can *pour >>>>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists. Therefore we can >>>> understand the >>>>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is >> *expressed >>>> *in a >>>>>>>> word" [emphasis in the original] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation >>>> *behind the >>>>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and >>>> language as >>>>>>>> oscillating. Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the >>>>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them >> as >>>>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of >>>>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words. >>>>>>>> Polyphonic notions >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Feb 1 17:03:02 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 18:03:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not] In-Reply-To: <1422754783108.50208@unm.edu> References: <33CC90A7-28F0-4407-A07A-0BBE012665F5@gmail.com> <, > <1422754783108.50208@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, It resonates historically and geriatickly. OMT > On Jan 31, 2015, at 6:39 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Henry that video is just loopy! > > :) > > Annalisa > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Feb 1 20:09:10 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 23:09:10 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Journal of Education and Training Studies: Vol. 3, No. 1, January 2015 issue published Message-ID: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Journal of Education and Training Studies
Date:02/01/2015 11:06 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe"
Subject: Journal of Education and Training Studies: Vol. 3, No. 1, January 2015 issue published
Dear Reader: Journal of Education and Training Studies has just published its latest issue at http://redfame.com/journal/index.php/jets/issue/view/27. We invite you to visit our website for the newly published articles. Journal of Education and Training Studies is calling for submissions to the Vol. 3, No. 2, March 2015 issue. The submission deadline is February 5, 2015. You are cordially invited to submit manuscripts to coming issues of the journal. You may see the journal?s website at http://jets.redfame.com and submit online. You may also e-mail submissions to jets@redfame.com We would appreciate it if you could share this information with your colleagues and associates. Thank you very much. Best Regards, Robert Smith Editorial Assistant Journal of Education and Training Studies ------------------------------------------- Redfame Publishing 9450 SW Gemini Dr. #99416 Beaverton, OR 97008, USA Tel: 1-503-828-0536 ext. 503 Fax: 1-503-828-0537 E-mail: jets@redfame.com URL: http://jets.redfame.com From Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 3 04:36:34 2015 From: Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk (Tom Martin) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 12:36:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis Message-ID: Hello, Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently much of his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the Stylo suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in a number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth pursuing, I would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see what comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions of the texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google skills. Best, Tom Doctoral candidate, Oxford University From juanma.duarte@gmail.com Tue Feb 3 05:01:38 2015 From: juanma.duarte@gmail.com (Juan Duarte) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 10:01:38 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Tom, there has been recently edited this book, Bronckart, C. Bota, *Bakhtine d?masqu? ? Histoire d?un menteur, d?une escroquerie et d?un d?lire collectif*, Droz, Ginebra, 2011, where the authors state (and seem to probe) that there has been an ideological political operation in presenting two different authors (Voloshinov and Bakhtin), as the same (Bakhtin). They say that, in doing so, all the richness of the 20s marxism is obliterated and shadowed by the controversial figure of Bakhtine. I leave here an interesting article about the cuestion, by french philosopher Lucien Seve. I have just in french and spanish. http://marxismocritico.com/2013/12/30/del-caso-bajtin-al-caso-vigotsky/ http://www.contretemps.eu/interventions/laffaire-bakhtine-cas-vygotski-marx-penseur-lindividualit%C3%A9-humaine Best, Juan Duarte 2015-02-03 9:36 GMT-03:00 Tom Martin : > Hello, > > Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' > Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an > authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov > (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently much of > his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. > > This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the Stylo > suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in a > number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone > sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth pursuing, I > would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see what > comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions of the > texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google > skills. > > Best, > Tom > Doctoral candidate, Oxford University > -- Juan From rakahu@utu.fi Tue Feb 3 05:13:24 2015 From: rakahu@utu.fi (Rauno Huttunen) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 13:13:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, At least in Finland Bakhtin scholars are quite sure that Volonisov and Bakhtin were different persons. Volonisov belong to the Bakhtin circle and that is why Volonisov and Bakthin share some ideas and used same kind of expressions. Nevertheless Volonisov was clearly Marxian and Bakhtin was not. Bakhtin tries to confince officials (party elite) that he is a Marxian but his concept of history is not in accordance with so called historical materialism. Of course one could claim that Marx's Capital is not in accordance with so called historical materialism (e.g. Arto Noro makes this claim). Bakhtin could be counted as representative of some form of Marxism but not the representative of historical materialism (defined by early Marx or Soviet Marxism). Some valid info on Volonisov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Voloshinov https://www.marxists.org/archive/voloshinov/index.htm http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Mail/xmcamail.2009_03.dir/pdfECNR4Oa1nF.pdf http://books.google.co.in/books?id=fIPuRyFvDKIC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fi&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false (See translator's introduction on the question of authorship) https://www.isca.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/ISCA/JASO/Archive_1978/9_3_Shelton.pdf http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511755002&cid=CBO9780511755002A011&tabName=Chapter http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/30277244/dialogues_onbakhtin.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1422972733&Signature=z9hlpYr%2BDpo1ixvzQYy8xgjYfw8%3D&response-content-disposition=inline#page=51 (Excellent book of Volonisov, Bakhtin and Saussure by Mika L?hteenm?ki) Rauno Huttunen ________________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] käyttäjän Tom Martin [Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk] puolesta L?hetetty: 3. helmikuuta 2015 14:36 Vastaanottaja: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Aihe: [Xmca-l] Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis Hello, Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently much of his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the Stylo suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in a number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth pursuing, I would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see what comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions of the texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google skills. Best, Tom Doctoral candidate, Oxford University From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 3 06:44:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 06:44:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom As indicated in followup messages, there is a lot of controversy on this topic. David Kellogg reviewed the book on Bakhtin de masque in MCAIn 2012. Vol 19 no. 4. Mike On Tuesday, February 3, 2015, Tom Martin wrote: > Hello, > > Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' > Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an > authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov > (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently much of > his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. > > This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the Stylo > suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in a > number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone > sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth pursuing, I > would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see what > comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions of the > texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google > skills. > > Best, > Tom > Doctoral candidate, Oxford University > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Tue Feb 3 09:25:41 2015 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 09:25:41 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, If you want to convince yourself of the distinctiveness of the two authors, apart from macro issues of ideology and micro issues of style, as you read Marxism and the Philosophy of Language (in any translation in any language), ask yourself what would be the kind of evidence and argument that would be coming from a linguist and from a literary scholar. Further apparently, there is overlap between some of the topics in Marxism and the Philosophy of Language and Volosinov's Doctoral essay in Linguistics, though I believe the text of that is lost. This question not only will settle your mind on the authorship issue, it will open up clarity in the interpretation of the work of each, as well as the orientation of Bakhtin when he ventures onto linguistic terrain (as in the essay on Speech Genres). Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: mike cole Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2015 6:45 am Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Tom > > As indicated in followup messages, there is a lot of controversy on this > topic. David Kellogg reviewed the book on Bakhtin de masque in MCAIn 2012. > Vol 19 no. 4. > Mike > > On Tuesday, February 3, 2015, Tom Martin > wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' > > Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an > > authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov > > (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently > much of > > his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. > > > > This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the > Stylo > > suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in > a > > number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone > > sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth > pursuing, I > > would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see > what > > comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions > of the > > texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google > > skills. > > > > Best, > > Tom > > Doctoral candidate, Oxford University > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Feb 3 12:53:23 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 20:53:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: <1422657482784.19412@unm.edu> References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> <1422657482784.19412@unm.edu> Message-ID: I looked at the "defrosting" paper and I can't say I see anything additional being proffered. I'm sure there is still plenty to be gained in careful tagging, clustering of tags and sharing them, though I'd expect things to get rather messy once one begins to border upon conceptual relations. As I see it, the usefulness of a citation is also contingent upon the conceptual appreciations of the citer -- the useful of citations may change. I think the educational news has got more going for it, so will put some time into that. Huw On 30 January 2015 at 22:38, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello all, > > What seems problematic about these solutions in Martin's link (pun > intended there, as solutions and floodplains go) is that they are closely > coupled with sundry corporations. > > Is there an OpenSource solution for a refDB as we are thinking about? > Participating with corporate and closed code on these kinds of reference > DBs furnishes the opportunity for them an ability to "watch" what > researchers are searching for in their own stash of cold storage. That > seems problematic to me. (Maybe people are already thinking this?) > > But here's my question: Is it possible to hook on to Open Journal somehow? > > I was looking at Hau and found this: > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/about/aboutThisPublishingSystem > > which led me to this: > https://pkp.sfu.ca/about/history/ > > and this, which has some interesting costing information, fyi: > http://pkp.sfu.ca/files/Library_Hi_Tech_DRAFT.pdf > > I realize these are publishing systems, but doesn't it make sense to have > a refDB cooperate with the architecture of Open Journal? > > Given the great butter Huw will churn out, the skilled milkmaid that he is > :) it is entirely possible that lots of researchers and students would pile > high the butter on toast, muffins, bagels, and scones with much delight. > > Now, if that were to happen, this may be their intro to the Open Journal > system possibly inspiring more researchers to start new journals on said > platform, or to switch over to it. > > Such is my prefiguration attempt? > > Hope the dam didn't break there? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 3 13:29:57 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 13:29:57 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reference data bases In-Reply-To: References: <974007D9-7E6B-468C-89DB-FCA6E88832CF@uniandes.edu.co> <88F20455-F923-46EE-BD93-063F1581B548@uniandes.edu.co> <1422638632917.12571@unm.edu> <1422657482784.19412@unm.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for continuing to worry about the issue. It seems general. mike PS-- No one went for my money raising scheme? On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I looked at the "defrosting" paper and I can't say I see anything > additional being proffered. I'm sure there is still plenty to be gained in > careful tagging, clustering of tags and sharing them, though I'd expect > things to get rather messy once one begins to border upon conceptual > relations. As I see it, the usefulness of a citation is also contingent > upon the conceptual appreciations of the citer -- the useful of citations > may change. > > I think the educational news has got more going for it, so will put some > time into that. > > Huw > > On 30 January 2015 at 22:38, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > What seems problematic about these solutions in Martin's link (pun > > intended there, as solutions and floodplains go) is that they are closely > > coupled with sundry corporations. > > > > Is there an OpenSource solution for a refDB as we are thinking about? > > Participating with corporate and closed code on these kinds of reference > > DBs furnishes the opportunity for them an ability to "watch" what > > researchers are searching for in their own stash of cold storage. That > > seems problematic to me. (Maybe people are already thinking this?) > > > > But here's my question: Is it possible to hook on to Open Journal > somehow? > > > > I was looking at Hau and found this: > > http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/about/aboutThisPublishingSystem > > > > which led me to this: > > https://pkp.sfu.ca/about/history/ > > > > and this, which has some interesting costing information, fyi: > > http://pkp.sfu.ca/files/Library_Hi_Tech_DRAFT.pdf > > > > I realize these are publishing systems, but doesn't it make sense to have > > a refDB cooperate with the architecture of Open Journal? > > > > Given the great butter Huw will churn out, the skilled milkmaid that he > is > > :) it is entirely possible that lots of researchers and students would > pile > > high the butter on toast, muffins, bagels, and scones with much delight. > > > > Now, if that were to happen, this may be their intro to the Open Journal > > system possibly inspiring more researchers to start new journals on said > > platform, or to switch over to it. > > > > Such is my prefiguration attempt? > > > > Hope the dam didn't break there? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Feb 3 23:47:38 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 16:47:38 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Juan: Thanks for posting the piece by Lucien Seve; it's the most interesting thing I've read all morning (true, it's before breakfast here in France, but I've been up since five). In general, I agree completely with his evaluation of the Bronckhart and Bota book (as Mike says, I reviewed it favorably for MCA). I also think his response to Serge Zenkine is correct. Above all, I think he is right to point to the key document in the affair: it is indeed "Towards a Philosophy of the Act", which everyone agrees is the work of Bakhtin, which shows that the books in question cannot have had a single author. But I think that Seve's account errs in three places worth noting: a) I think he greatly exaggerates the extent to which Christianity and Bolshevism were ideologically incompatible: there was a whole group devoted to their reconciliation ("Rebirth" or "Vokresheniye"), which Stalinism had not yet stamped out. It is interesting that Bakhtin, a professional survivor, was NOT a member of this group. b) Seve considers "Mind in Society" responsible for what he calls an "Anglo-American distortion" of Vygotsky's work. Of course, any popularization is a "distortion"; we all know that Bowdler distorted Shakespeare by rewriting him for children. But as Swinburne says, no man ever did Shakespeare better service than the meddling priest who made it possible to place a "distortion" of his work in the hands of imaginative children. It is precisely through such "distortions" that thinkers are saved from limbo and granted eternal cultural-historical life. c) Seve seems a little too confident that Leontiev's version of Vygotsky is the one correct version! See Andy Blunden's excellent garbage disposal of Leontiev's critique of "The Problem of the Environment". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. On 3 February 2015 at 22:01, Juan Duarte wrote: > Hello Tom, > there has been recently edited this book, Bronckart, C. Bota, *Bakhtine > d?masqu? ? Histoire d?un menteur, d?une escroquerie et d?un d?lire > collectif*, Droz, Ginebra, 2011, where the authors state (and seem to > probe) that there has been an ideological political operation in presenting > two different authors (Voloshinov and Bakhtin), as the same (Bakhtin). They > say that, in doing so, all the richness of the 20s marxism is obliterated > and shadowed by the controversial figure of Bakhtine. > I leave here an interesting article about the cuestion, by french > philosopher Lucien Seve. I have just in french and spanish. > http://marxismocritico.com/2013/12/30/del-caso-bajtin-al-caso-vigotsky/ > > http://www.contretemps.eu/interventions/laffaire-bakhtine-cas-vygotski-marx-penseur-lindividualit%C3%A9-humaine > > Best, > Juan Duarte > > 2015-02-03 9:36 GMT-03:00 Tom Martin : > > > Hello, > > > > Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' > > Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an > > authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov > > (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently much > of > > his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. > > > > This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the Stylo > > suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in a > > number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone > > sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth pursuing, > I > > would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see what > > comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions of > the > > texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google > > skills. > > > > Best, > > Tom > > Doctoral candidate, Oxford University > > > > > > -- > Juan > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Feb 4 02:03:59 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 19:03:59 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One other comment on Seve. He's quite wrong to describe early Bakhtin as Slavophilic: Bakhtin was far more interested in the neo-Kantians and in Husserl, and later on Cassirer. These are not writers who occupy a central place for Slavophiles. This is important, because the epigones of Bakhtin--Gachev, and above all Kuzhinov--have tried to erect something quite Slavophilic around his name. Kuzinov in particular has espoused the anti-Semitic theory that the Kazhars, who converted to Judaism, were responsible for all deviations from the true path of Russian philosophy. This kind of idiocy is growing increasingly acceptable (Putin's religious adviser recently advised against gay marriage on the grounds that all good Russians know what happened when sexual minorities were tolerated in the twenties!) Bakhtin was never a Slavophile, and part of the struggle over Bakhtin has to be against those who would use the clear division which now must be drawn between his work and that of Volosinov and Medvedev to assimilate his work to that of Florensky and Loseev. Although I think that Bakhtin did not agree with Shpet's views on the novel (Shpet loathed novels), his phenomenology seems, to my ignorant eyes, to be remarkably similar. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 3 February 2015 at 22:01, Juan Duarte wrote: > Hello Tom, > there has been recently edited this book, Bronckart, C. Bota, *Bakhtine > d?masqu? ? Histoire d?un menteur, d?une escroquerie et d?un d?lire > collectif*, Droz, Ginebra, 2011, where the authors state (and seem to > probe) that there has been an ideological political operation in presenting > two different authors (Voloshinov and Bakhtin), as the same (Bakhtin). They > say that, in doing so, all the richness of the 20s marxism is obliterated > and shadowed by the controversial figure of Bakhtine. > I leave here an interesting article about the cuestion, by french > philosopher Lucien Seve. I have just in french and spanish. > http://marxismocritico.com/2013/12/30/del-caso-bajtin-al-caso-vigotsky/ > > http://www.contretemps.eu/interventions/laffaire-bakhtine-cas-vygotski-marx-penseur-lindividualit%C3%A9-humaine > > Best, > Juan Duarte > > 2015-02-03 9:36 GMT-03:00 Tom Martin : > > > Hello, > > > > Reading the "Social memory in Soviet thought" chapter in Harry Daniels' > > Introduction to Vygotsky, I was surprised to learn that there is an > > authorship debate around the work of the post-Vygotsky writer Voloshinov > > (whom, to be honest, I had never heard of before today). Apparently much > of > > his work was later attributed to Bakhtin. > > > > This caught my interest because I have been playing around with the Stylo > > suite for R, which does Stylometric analysis. Stylo is being used in a > > number of interesting projects to make claims about authorship. If anyone > > sees this Voloshinov/Bakhtin question as being valid and worth pursuing, > I > > would be happy to spend an evening plugging the texts into R to see what > > comes out. The only hurdle for me would be getting digital versions of > the > > texts in Russian - unfortunately that is beyond my linguistic and Google > > skills. > > > > Best, > > Tom > > Doctoral candidate, Oxford University > > > > > > -- > Juan > From Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 4 06:24:22 2015 From: Tom.Martin@education.ox.ac.uk (Tom Martin) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 14:24:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Voloshinov or Bakhtin? Stylometric analysis Message-ID: I see - so the authorship debate is not as real as I understood it to be. Thank you everyone for the clarification and materials. Best, Tom From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Feb 4 19:20:53 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 22:20:53 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Community Development | Call for Proposals Message-ID: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: molly.r.phillips@gmail.com
Date:02/03/2015 2:14 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com
Subject: Community Development | Call for Proposals
03-Feb-2015 Dear Dr Mocombe, Call for Proposals Editor for the Community Development Society?s Journal Community Development Position to start August 2015 Community Development is a well-respected interdisciplinary peer-reviewed journal on community development issues. The journal is internationally recognized as a high quality outlet for scholarly and applied research and practical applications. Community Development is published five times per year. This schedule incorporates two special issues on specific topics, edited by Guest Editors working with the Editor. The journal is published electronically and in print by Taylor & Francis, and the editorial process involves use of ScholarOne, an online management program. If you are interested in applying to serve as Editor of Community Development, please contact Abbie Gaffey, Chair of the Communications Committee. She can provide more information on the criteria and proposal process. Abbie Gaffey Community Development Society Secretary & Chair of the Communications Committee agaffey@iastate.edu (712) 539-1169 http://explore.tandfonline.com/page/pgas/rcod-call-for-editor From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Feb 4 20:06:03 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 20:06:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: Martin and others curious to explore "inner form", I wanted to return to the notion of "inner" form as the inner aspect of the unity of "word meaning" I do not have the background but do have the curiosity to invite further reflections An edited book [cultivating minds: identity as meaning making practice] has a chapter on Georg Simmel but mentions Vygotsky and Shpet's influence. on page 44 there is this paragraph: Overall, with his brilliant idea of synthesizing objectification and appropriation, Lazarus, for the first time, outlined a cultural historical theory which was then elaborated sixty years later by Lev Vygotsky and his socio-historical school. in fact, the possible influence of the Humboldtian scholar Gustav Shpet (1879-1937), on Vygotsky's thinking also remains largely unanalyzed (See Zinchenko 2000). As a student, Vygotsky followed a course given by Shpet and we may assume that he kept following Sept's theorizing with some interest. (Van der Veer 1996). what is interesting with regard to Shpet is his discussion of Lazarus and Steinthal's Volkerpsychologie in his 1927 "Introduction to Ethnic Psychology". In a similar vein, Simmel designated culture as that which the mind has deposited in language, institutions, art and, last but not least, technology. Frisky (1992) argues therefore, that Simmer is one of the first cultural psychologists to examine the inner (psychic) consequence for individual experiences of the domination of the cultural things in everyday experience as the culture of human beings." I share this paragraph in the hope of exploring further the notion of "inner form" as it played out in these various scholars. Zinchenko's hypothesis that in reflecting on "inner form" is the way of creating/realizing "inner form". I do not have the background to do more than gesture towards this "theme" but am attempting to keep the topic alive. larry On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:16 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word > "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others are > referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner aspect of a > word." > > Without wanting to get blokey, it seems to me that these paragraphs in > Chapter One of T&L are very clear: > > "However, what is such a unit, which cannot be further resolved and in > which are inherently contained the properties in verbal thinking as whole? > To us it seems that this unit can be found in the internal [inner, > interior] aspect [side] of the word [??????????? ??????? ?????], in its > meaning [????????]. > > "This inner side [?????????? ???????] of the word, until now, has hardly > undergone any special studies. Word meaning [???????? ?????] was dissolved > in the sea of all the other conceptions (??????????????, predstavlenii?) of > our consciousness or all other acts (?????, acts) of our thinking, just as > sound, torn from meaning [????????], was dissolved in the sea of all of > those remaining sounds existing in nature. Therefore in exactly the same > way that, with respect to the sound of human speech, contemporary > psychology cannot say anything which would be specific to the sound of > human speech as such, so too psychology in the field of the study of verbal > meaning [?????????? ????????] cannot say anything besides the facts that > characterize in identical measure verbal meaning [????????? ????????] and > all the other ideas and thoughts [????????????? ? ?????] of our > consciousness. > > "Thus the matter proceeded in associative psychology, and so, in general, > it proceeds in contemporary structural psychology. In the word we always > recognize only one side, that which is turned towards us. The other, the > inside, has ever remained and remains today unstudied and unknown as the > other side of the moon. Meanwhile it is precisely in this, the other side, > that the possibility lies of resolving the problems that interest us > concerning the relation of thinking and speech, for it is precisely here, > in word meaning [???????? ?????], that we find tied together the knot of > that unity [??????? ???? ???? ????????] that we call verbal thinking > [??????? ?????????]." > > > > Martin > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 09:11:33 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 10:11:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Work flow question: Gantt charts for writing Message-ID: Writers of the world, I'm looking for a better way to manage my writing workflow and wondering what other people use to accomplish this. When I worked in construction I found Gantt charts to be particularly useful for figuring out how long a project was going to take and for figuring out how to properly allocate time to it. My sense is that a gantt chart could be a very useful tool to help manage multiple writing projects and their deadlines, but I'm having difficulty finding ones that are well suited for writing. It seems like the majority are multi-user and are geared towards corporate team-based projects. I found one that seems like it might be a useful tool: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/smartsheet-project-manage/cindmhdfkimaeggbebfjkmkdfiohldbm?hl=en But I'm really looking for suggestions of how others manage their work flow. (and yes, I'm very familiar with the old fashioned calendar - as well as the new fangled Google calendar!). And if anyone has a program that they use that they feel is helpful, I'd much appreciate pointers. Thanks, greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Feb 5 09:27:52 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 17:27:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Work flow question: Gantt charts for writing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1423157271661.88817@unm.edu> Greg! How about Omniplan? https://www.omnigroup.com/omniplan or Omnioutliner? https://www.omnigroup.com/omnioutliner Cheers! Annalisa From wiobyrne@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 09:46:09 2015 From: wiobyrne@gmail.com (Ian O'Byrne) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 17:46:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Work flow question: Gantt charts for writing References: <1423157271661.88817@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi all, Great question Greg...and feedback from Annalisa. This might be more GTD than writing workflow, but it might work for you. I typically use my Inbox/gMail inbox as my "to do" list. This works until I get a slew of papers turned in by students. This also proves to be problematic to keep on track of writing. Lately I've been dogfooding HabitRPG to get ready to teach a class on gamification in education. This has been better, but not perfect to keep track of writing goals. I research & synthesize in Evernote, and write in Google Docs. I need a system that plays well with those. Lately (AKA as you emailed) I have been checking out how Clay Shirky , but most notably Doug Belshaw handles this. I'm thinking about testing out the use of Trello to keep track of what I need to/want to do. I also want to include writing goals in that workflow. I CC'ed Doug on this email in case he can give better insight into how he scaffolds and tracks writing progress in his books. -Ian On Thu Feb 05 2015 at 12:30:27 PM Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greg! > > How about Omniplan? > https://www.omnigroup.com/omniplan > > or Omnioutliner? > https://www.omnigroup.com/omnioutliner > > > Cheers! > > Annalisa > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 10:18:25 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 10:18:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello - I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. Thanks -- Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 10:18:25 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 10:18:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello - I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. Thanks -- Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 From drrussel@iastate.edu Thu Feb 5 12:28:59 2015 From: drrussel@iastate.edu (David Russell) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:28:59 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Helena, I edit the Journal of Business and Technical Communication, which includes people who do workplace studies and training. I'll pass your book along to our book review editor. See my details below. David On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Hello - > > I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The > Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to > labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor > Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I > am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes > where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to > protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends > on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. > > My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from > political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and > perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required > to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private > charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to > know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and > alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to > work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders > if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. > > It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, > although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the > reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of > short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have > enough stories in it to pull the reader along. > > If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not > everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. > > Thanks -- Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > 510-828-2745 > > > -- David R. Russell, Professor English Department Iowa State University Ames, IA 50011 USA (515) 294-4724 Fax (515) 294-6814 drrussel@iastate.edu http://www.public.iastate.edu/~drrussel/drresume.html From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 12:48:44 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 12:48:44 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 5, 2015, at 12:28 PM, David Russell wrote: > Helena, > I edit the Journal of Business and Technical Communication, which includes > people who do workplace studies and training. > I'll pass your book along to our book review editor. See my details below. > David > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> Hello - >> >> I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The >> Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to >> labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor >> Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I >> am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes >> where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to >> protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends >> on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. >> >> My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from >> political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and >> perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required >> to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private >> charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to >> know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and >> alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to >> work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders >> if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. >> >> It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, >> although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the >> reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of >> short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have >> enough stories in it to pull the reader along. >> >> If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not >> everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. >> >> Thanks -- Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> 21 San Mateo Road >> Berkeley, CA 94707 >> 510-828-2745 >> >> >> > > > -- > David R. Russell, Professor > English Department > Iowa State University > Ames, IA 50011 USA > (515) 294-4724 > Fax (515) 294-6814 > drrussel@iastate.edu > http://www.public.iastate.edu/~drrussel/drresume.html From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Thu Feb 5 13:59:25 2015 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 21:59:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> Congratulations Helena! ______________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] Sent: 05 February 2015 18:18 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators Hello - I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. Thanks -- Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 14:59:16 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:59:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> References: <, > <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> Message-ID: <036BEF88-1445-4D0E-B1C0-7AF74DEE7DF2@gmail.com> Hi Helen, Bravo! I would be interested in your pages from Vygotsky, for sure, though I don?t know if that entitles me to a desk copy. In my simplistic understanding of it, I have thought that the classroom is not the only learning environment, by far, and have thought that scaffolding and the ZPD is a great way to establish commonalities across learning environments. I have heard that corporations spend billions on in-house training. Also, I have read sporadically about how model ways of organizing manufacturing get down "on the floor". The current thread on software for work flow of academics has promos that emphasize PROJECTS, which connects to the book that Andy has edited on Collaborative Projects. All seems to connect. Henry > On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:59 PM, C Barker wrote: > > Congratulations Helena! > > ______________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] > Sent: 05 February 2015 18:18 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators > > Hello - > > I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. > > My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. > > It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. > > If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. > > Thanks -- Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > 510-828-2745 > > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 15:05:40 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:05:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: <036BEF88-1445-4D0E-B1C0-7AF74DEE7DF2@gmail.com> References: <, > <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> <036BEF88-1445-4D0E-B1C0-7AF74DEE7DF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry, send me your address!! It entitels you. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:59 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Hi Helen, > Bravo! I would be interested in your pages from Vygotsky, for sure, though I don?t know if that entitles me to a desk copy. In my simplistic understanding of it, I have thought that the classroom is not the only learning environment, by far, and have thought that scaffolding and the ZPD is a great way to establish commonalities across learning environments. I have heard that corporations spend billions on in-house training. Also, I have read sporadically about how model ways of organizing manufacturing get down "on the floor". The current thread on software for work flow of academics has promos that emphasize PROJECTS, which connects to the book that Andy has edited on Collaborative Projects. All seems to connect. > Henry > >> On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:59 PM, C Barker wrote: >> >> Congratulations Helena! >> >> ______________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] >> Sent: 05 February 2015 18:18 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators >> >> Hello - >> >> I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. >> >> My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. >> >> It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. >> >> If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. >> >> Thanks -- Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> 21 San Mateo Road >> Berkeley, CA 94707 >> 510-828-2745 >> >> >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " >> > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 15:08:38 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:08:38 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> References: , <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> Message-ID: Hello, Colin -- good to hear from you. Wish we were coming to your Social Movements conference this year. It has been a high point for us. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 5, 2015, at 1:59 PM, C Barker wrote: > Congratulations Helena! > > ______________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] > Sent: 05 February 2015 18:18 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators > > Hello - > > I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. > > My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. > > It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. > > If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. > > Thanks -- Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > 510-828-2745 > > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From g.evans@kialta.com.au Thu Feb 5 16:33:51 2015 From: g.evans@kialta.com.au (Gavan Evans) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 11:33:51 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Helena I'm both a doctoral student and a workplace trainer in health and safety to nurses, aged care and child care workers. If you're looking for an international perspective, I'd love to review your book. Cheers Gavan *Gavan Evans | *Director MAppSci (OHS), FSIA, FQIG, RSP (Aust), MACE, MAITD *Kialta Training Pty Ltd* On 6 February 2015 at 05:18, Helena Worthen wrote: > Hello - > > I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The > Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to > labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor > Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I > am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes > where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to > protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends > on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. > > My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from > political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and > perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required > to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private > charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to > know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and > alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to > work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders > if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. > > It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, > although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the > reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of > short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have > enough stories in it to pull the reader along. > > If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not > everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. > > Thanks -- Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > 510-828-2745 > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Feb 5 18:16:19 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 19:16:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators In-Reply-To: References: <, > <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880015D623EBC@exmb2> <036BEF88-1445-4D0E-B1C0-7AF74DEE7DF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Helena, So cool! 6603 Elwood Drive NW Los Ranchos de Albuquerque, NM 87107 Thank you very much. I am looking forward to getting the book. As a teacher educator for 25 years, I really have been interested for a long time in contexts of learning beyond the classroom, thinking that it would help teacher educators enormously. Again, kudos to you! Henry > On Feb 5, 2015, at 4:05 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > > Henry, send me your address!! It entitels you. > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:59 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Hi Helen, >> Bravo! I would be interested in your pages from Vygotsky, for sure, though I don?t know if that entitles me to a desk copy. In my simplistic understanding of it, I have thought that the classroom is not the only learning environment, by far, and have thought that scaffolding and the ZPD is a great way to establish commonalities across learning environments. I have heard that corporations spend billions on in-house training. Also, I have read sporadically about how model ways of organizing manufacturing get down "on the floor". The current thread on software for work flow of academics has promos that emphasize PROJECTS, which connects to the book that Andy has edited on Collaborative Projects. All seems to connect. >> Henry >> >>> On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:59 PM, C Barker wrote: >>> >>> Congratulations Helena! >>> >>> ______________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Helena Worthen [helenaworthen@gmail.com] >>> Sent: 05 February 2015 18:18 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Non-academic book learning theory for labor educators >>> >>> Hello - >>> >>> I've just found out that my book, "What Did You Learn at Work Today? The Forbidden Lessons of Labor Education," was awarded the Best Book related to labor education prize for 2014 by the United Association for Labor Education, my professional association. With this in hand, evidence that I am not completely nuts about trying to bring learning theory into classes where nurses and postal workers are trying to learn how to organize to protect and improve their jobs, I want to turn back to my long time friends on XMCA to see if I can get a reaction from someone on this list. >>> >>> My primary audience is other labor educators, who tend to come from political science and sociology, not education. But my secondary and perhaps more important audience is teacher trainers, who are being required to feed their students into the grinder of standardized testing, private charter schools an, in higher ed, student learning outcomes and who need to know that there is a theoretical framework out there that provides and alternative. The third audience would be any young kid who is trying to work at a bad job, while going to school and accumulate debt, who wonders if they are wasting their time and not learning anything. >>> >>> It's not an academic book and is short on references and footnotes, although I leave trail markers about how to get to richer stuff if the reader is interested. I try to explain what Vygotsky gave us in a couple of short pages. It's written at a level to be "readable," and it seems to have enough stories in it to pull the reader along. >>> >>> If someone wants a free copy, perhaps to review (if you like it; not everyone will), I'll get my publisher to send you one. >>> >>> Thanks -- Helena >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>> 21 San Mateo Road >>> Berkeley, CA 94707 >>> 510-828-2745 >>> >>> >>> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " >>> >> >> > > From smago@uga.edu Fri Feb 6 06:23:42 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 14:23:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Journal of Game-Supported Interactive Learning In-Reply-To: <6d638a41a4ea4ecfac146c8d230a9ed8@BL2FFO11FD033.protection.gbl> References: <6d638a41a4ea4ecfac146c8d230a9ed8@BL2FFO11FD033.protection.gbl> Message-ID: . If you cannot view this email properly, please click here. [http://macroworldpub.com/newsletter/logo.JPG] www.macroworldpub.com [http://macroworldpub.com/newsletter/jgsil.jpg] The journal is a peer-reviewed scholarly journal published by ILCS and MacroWorld Pub., in both print and online version for research on all aspects of the use of game in learning and teaching in all sectors of education. Journal of Game-Supported Interactive Learning is an international, refereed, multi-disciplinary, peer-refereed journal providing a platform for the publication of high quality and discussion of the latest scientific research, concepts, review papers and comparative analyses and exemplars that can deeply influence the role of game-supported technologies on learning, development, instruction and teaching. All manuscripts must be prepared in English and are subject to a rigorous and fair peer-review process. Articles submitted to this journal must be original and not have been published elsewhere. Topics may include, but are not limited to: learning theory, learning technologies, cognition and technology, new uses of technology in education, instructional design theory and application, integration of information resources, issue-or results-focused case studies, online learning, computer game applications in education, simulations and gaming, and other aspects of the use of technology in the learning process. JGSIL is an international journal devoted to the examination of the relationships between interactive learning and game studies across a wide range of perspectives and settings, theoretical, different methodological approaches and applied. The journal providing a platform for the researchers, academicians, professional and students to impart and share knowledge in the form of high quality empirical and theoretical research papers, case studies and book reviews. Submission and Publication Information: Submission deadline: March 20th, 2015 Final manuscript submissions to publisher: July, 2015 Number of papers: 5 to 7 papers For more information, visit the official website of the journal jgsil.macroworldpub.com If you would like to discuss your paper prior to submission, or seek advice on the submission process please contact the Journal of Game-Supported Interactive Learning, Editorial Office, at the following email address: jgsil@macroworldpub.com [http://www.macroworldpub.com/kutuphane/upload/resim/5d8bffd242d8373db47e307a040f9839.jpg] Manuscript Submission Editorial Board Publication Ethics Contact RELATED JOURNALS Social Media Studies Educational Policies and Current Practices Information and Audiovisual Policy Critical Photography Studies Eurasian Film Studies Computer Games and Communication Quantitative Analysis in Communication For more information, visit the official website of the journals: www.macroworldpub.com MacroWorld Publishing respect your privacy. This email is not automated email. If you wish not to receive emails please To unsubscribe from future announcements click on the following link and confirm: Unsubscribe by email [http://macroworldpub.com/newsletter/logo2.png] ? 2015 MacroWorld Publishing Co. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 6 10:16:00 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 18:16:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Cory Doctorow never said it better Message-ID: <1423246559539.38420@unm.edu> Hi all, This was in the Guardian today, and while he was discussing the marketization of archives, I thought his argument translates just as well to public and higher education. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/06/go-digital-by-all-means-but-dont-bring-the-venture-capitalists-in-to-do-it? From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 6 11:40:29 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 19:40:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Some info on Net Neutrality Message-ID: <1423251629491.94917@unm.edu> Hi xmcars, Thought I'd pass this on... http://www.wired.com/2015/02/fcc-chairman-wheeler-net-neutrality/ and look out for the final vote on Feb 26. https://www.battleforthenet.com/countdown/ This is one story in which the constituency won out over the corporations, at least for now... We can all use some good news! Best, Annalisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Fri Feb 6 15:19:27 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2015 18:19:27 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Community Development | Call for Abstracts Deadline Extended to February 15, 2015 Message-ID: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: molly.r.phillips@gmail.com
Date:02/06/2015 6:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: pmocombe@mocombeian.com
Subject: Community Development | Call for Abstracts Deadline Extended to February 15, 2015
06-Feb-2015 Dear Dr Mocombe, CDS 2015 Conference July 19-22, 2015 Hilton Lexington Downtown Hotel Lexington, Kentucky, USA Conference Theme: Creativity and Culture: Community Development Approaches for Strengthening Health, Environment, Economic Vibrancy, Social Justice and Democracy Call for Abstracts ? Deadline Extended Deadline for submissions: February 15, 2015 To submit go to this link: http://comm-dev.org/about-us/2015-conference/call-for-abstracts Community activists and developers are integrating the arts and culture into building vibrant communities. Increasingly, groups and organizations are leveraging the arts and imagination to engage citizens in community development. In doing so, they create places and organizations that support economic diversity and strengthen the aesthetics of communities. There is a growing awareness that the arts can serve as a vehicle to bring people together. There is interest in making places more intentionally open for diverse economic opportunities and fostering connections across cultures which makes communities more vibrant and welcoming. Culture is also gaining more attention in community development as society becomes more diverse through demographic shifts including greater concentrations of the elderly, immigrants, ethnic diversity, and counter-culture movements. As a result, it could be argued that there isn't a single public but multiple publics. Community developers are challenged to be culturally aware and sensitive as they weave these multiple publics together into a community of shared vision, interests and investment. The 2015 Community Development Society conference offers a platform for dialogue about community development with an emphasis on the roles of creativity and culture in framing community issues and responses. We invite you to join us July 19-22, 2015 in Lexington, Kentucky in the heart of the world's most avid horse culture, to share your research and learning about how the arts and creative expression are strengthening the bonds of communities around the world. The learning tracks will provide opportunities to explore community development approaches in depth from an urban, metropolitan and rural perspective. The program agenda includes many issues and areas of community development practice such as: ? Strengthening Health ? Strengthening the Environment ? Strengthening Economic Vibrancy ? Strengthening Social Justice ? Strengthening Democracy Please view the detailed Call for Abstracts that includes a detailed description of conference themes here: http://comm-dev.org/images/pdf/CDS_2015_Call_for_Abstracts_FINAL.pdf This venue provides opportunities for spirited and lively exchanges about community development practice, learning, and scholarship. We invite your presentations, workshops and discussions of successful and innovative approaches to solving development issues in communities, large and small, in the US or internationally to share with your colleagues, new and emerging scholars, students and others in Lexington. Won't you join us? Thank you, CDS From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Feb 7 17:14:11 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:14:11 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Unreading Althusser Message-ID: Although it is framed as a discussion of the Bakhtin "disputed texts" question, Seve's article in "Contretemps" (see Juan's posting) raises a much more important problem en passant. Seve would like us all to unread Althusser, and he sees Vygotsky as a key figure in doing this. Althusser argued that the early "humanist" Marx of the Manifesto and of the German Ideology was entirely supplanted by a mature, anti-humanist Marx of Capital and the Grundrisse. This anti-humanist Marx was essentially a structuralist: the commodity was a little like the "Selfish Gene" of Richard Dawkins, using the individual instrumentally to construct a society in its own image. As Seve points out, this kind of "Marxism" is particularly conducive to Stalinism and even post-Stalinist ideas of how activity can structure the human personality, but it is not at all conducive to understanding how language can structure a human personality. It's conducive to Bukharinist and even Foucaultian ideas of how society reproduces itself, virus-like, in the individual, but it's not at all conducive to understanding, contrariwise, a personality and even a whole socialist society as the result of human individuation. That's where Vygotsky comes in. I remarked earlier that Seve considers "Mind in Society" to be a "characteristically Anglo-American" distortion of Vygotsky's ideas about individuation. What I didn't mention was that Seve considers that this distortion was at least better than the situation that held in France until 1985, when his wife brought out the first (!) translation of Vygotsky's work into French (the French version of HDHMF is only now being brought out!). Distortion is, after all, always better than outright suppression; a careful reader can go along ways towards undistorting a text, but you can't undistort silence. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies PS: Seve also mentions, tantalizingly, that the heirs to the Vygotsky family archive have sold all rights to a prestigious Canadian publisher, and this publisher has yet to bring out a single volume. Does anyone know the publisher in question? dk From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 7 17:23:55 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 01:23:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1423358634462.25380@unm.edu> All I can say is WOW! David. I think your post is telepathically synchronistic beauty more clarified than ghee! Thanks for that and those! Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Sat Feb 7 17:27:41 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 12:27:41 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54D6BB8D.909@mira.net> I heartily agree with the view of Althusser that you ascribe to Seve, David, and I strongly believe that Vygotsky's Cultural Psychology is the key to meeting the various challenges which Althusser presents to a humanist Marxism. Perhaps a reflection on the word "distortion" is worthwhile in this context. "Distortion" differs from a range of concepts like "appropriation" by simply adding a derogatory connotation. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > Although it is framed as a discussion of the Bakhtin "disputed texts" > question, Seve's article in "Contretemps" (see Juan's posting) raises a > much more important problem en passant. Seve would like us all to unread > Althusser, and he sees Vygotsky as a key figure in doing this. > > Althusser argued that the early "humanist" Marx of the Manifesto and of the > German Ideology was entirely supplanted by a mature, anti-humanist Marx of > Capital and the Grundrisse. This anti-humanist Marx was essentially a > structuralist: the commodity was a little like the "Selfish Gene" of > Richard Dawkins, using the individual instrumentally to construct a society > in its own image. > > As Seve points out, this kind of "Marxism" is particularly conducive > to Stalinism and even post-Stalinist ideas of how activity can structure > the human personality, but it is not at all conducive to understanding how > language can structure a human personality. It's conducive to Bukharinist > and even Foucaultian ideas of how society reproduces itself, virus-like, in > the individual, but it's not at all conducive to understanding, > contrariwise, a personality and even a whole socialist society as the > result of human individuation. That's where Vygotsky comes in. > > I remarked earlier that Seve considers "Mind in Society" to be a > "characteristically Anglo-American" distortion of Vygotsky's ideas about > individuation. What I didn't mention was that Seve considers that this > distortion was at least better than the situation that held in France until > 1985, when his wife brought out the first (!) translation of Vygotsky's > work into French (the French version of HDHMF is only now being brought > out!). Distortion is, after all, always better than outright suppression; > a careful reader can go along ways towards undistorting a text, but you > can't undistort silence. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: > > Seve also mentions, tantalizingly, that the heirs to the Vygotsky family > archive have sold all rights to a prestigious Canadian publisher, and this > publisher has yet to bring out a single volume. Does anyone know the > publisher in question? > > dk > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 7 20:02:58 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 04:02:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <54D6BB8D.909@mira.net> References: , <54D6BB8D.909@mira.net> Message-ID: <1423368176504.29883@unm.edu> Andy, I am thrilled to see how much I agree with you on this! Appropriation without understanding is just no different than kitsch, unless perhaps someone is Jeff Koons! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Koons Check this out from the WSJ: Why Dictators Love Kitsch http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204908604574336383324209824#mod=article-outset-box I add this famous essay by Clement Greenberg on the Avant-garde and Kitsch (which will be nice to reread after a long while, so I'm quite glad for this to come up in my everyday consciousness!): http://www.sharecom.ca/greenberg/kitsch.html THEN for more immediate effect and connection, I also add this from the MOMA website with regard to The Definition of Kitsch: "Term used to identify spurious imitations of genuine artistic creations in the fine and applied arts, architecture, literature, fashion, photography, the theatre, cinema and music. Kitsch is sometimes used to refer to virtually any form of popular art or mass entertainment, especially when sentimental, but, although many popular art forms are cheap and somewhat crude, they are at least direct and unpretentious. On the other hand, a persistent theme in the history of the usage of ?kitsch?, going back to the word?s mid-European origins, is pretentiousness, especially in reference to objects that simulate whatever is conventionally viewed as high art. As Hauser (1974) remarked, kitsch differs from merely popular forms in its insistence on being taken seriously as art or as expressing ?civilized? taste. Kitsch can thus be defined as a kind of pseudo, parasitic art, whose essential function is to flatter, soothe and reassure its viewer and consumer. In his essay ?Of the Standard of Taste? (1757), David Hume remarked on ?A species of beauty, which, as it is florid and superficial, pleases at first; but ? soon palls upon the taste, and then is rejected with disdain, or at least rated at a much lower value.? Kitsch was a term unavailable to Hume in the 18th century, but he recognized the mediocrity inherent in what would now be termed kitsch objects. Kitsch properly begins with what has been called the bourgeois realism of Salon painting and sculpture in the 19th century. Some late Pre-Raphaelite work, with romantic fantasies of a medieval golden age, lies on the boundary of kitsch, while saccharine evocations of Classical themes by such painters as William-Adolphe Bouguereau and Lawrence Alma-Tadema often cross the line. Bell (1914) denied that Luke Fildes?s The Doctor (exh. RA 1891; London, Tate) was a work of art because its effect relies wholly on its sentimental subject-matter. Bell insisted that the painting is ?worse than nugatory because the emotion it suggests is false. What it suggests is not pity and admiration but a sense of complacency in our own pitifulness and generosity.? Bell?s objection is to an art that, rather than demanding or even examining virtue, congratulates the viewer for already possessing it. This same idea was stressed by the novelist Milan Kundera in his meditation on the concept of kitsch in The Unbearable Lightness of Being (trans., London, 1984). Kundera characterized kitsch as calling forth ?the second tear?. The first tear is shed out of pity; the second is shed in recognition of the feeling of pity. It is essentially self-congratulatory. According to Kulka (1988), the standard kitsch work must be instantly identifiable as depicting ?an object or theme which is generally considered to be beautiful or highly charged with stock emotions?, even though it ?does not substantially enrich our associations related to the depicted subject?. The impact of kitsch is therefore limited to reminding the viewer of great works of art, deep emotions or grand philosophic, religious or patriotic sentiments." One may read the rest of the entry here: http://www.moma.org/collection/theme.php?theme_id=10104 Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:27 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser I heartily agree with the view of Althusser that you ascribe to Seve, David, and I strongly believe that Vygotsky's Cultural Psychology is the key to meeting the various challenges which Althusser presents to a humanist Marxism. Perhaps a reflection on the word "distortion" is worthwhile in this context. "Distortion" differs from a range of concepts like "appropriation" by simply adding a derogatory connotation. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > Although it is framed as a discussion of the Bakhtin "disputed texts" > question, Seve's article in "Contretemps" (see Juan's posting) raises a > much more important problem en passant. Seve would like us all to unread > Althusser, and he sees Vygotsky as a key figure in doing this. > > Althusser argued that the early "humanist" Marx of the Manifesto and of the > German Ideology was entirely supplanted by a mature, anti-humanist Marx of > Capital and the Grundrisse. This anti-humanist Marx was essentially a > structuralist: the commodity was a little like the "Selfish Gene" of > Richard Dawkins, using the individual instrumentally to construct a society > in its own image. > > As Seve points out, this kind of "Marxism" is particularly conducive > to Stalinism and even post-Stalinist ideas of how activity can structure > the human personality, but it is not at all conducive to understanding how > language can structure a human personality. It's conducive to Bukharinist > and even Foucaultian ideas of how society reproduces itself, virus-like, in > the individual, but it's not at all conducive to understanding, > contrariwise, a personality and even a whole socialist society as the > result of human individuation. That's where Vygotsky comes in. > > I remarked earlier that Seve considers "Mind in Society" to be a > "characteristically Anglo-American" distortion of Vygotsky's ideas about > individuation. What I didn't mention was that Seve considers that this > distortion was at least better than the situation that held in France until > 1985, when his wife brought out the first (!) translation of Vygotsky's > work into French (the French version of HDHMF is only now being brought > out!). Distortion is, after all, always better than outright suppression; > a careful reader can go along ways towards undistorting a text, but you > can't undistort silence. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: > > Seve also mentions, tantalizingly, that the heirs to the Vygotsky family > archive have sold all rights to a prestigious Canadian publisher, and this > publisher has yet to bring out a single volume. Does anyone know the > publisher in question? > > dk > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 7 20:29:44 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:29:44 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David -- My French was more or less wiped out and supplanted by Russian. barbaric in either case, so I cannot comment properly on Seve. However, I believe that the same "early/late" Marx argument applies to the LSV-ANL controversy which it seems we went over pretty thoroughly a few months ago. There is an authoritarian, and in the Soviet case, Stalinist "affordance" to Leontiev's version of activity theory. That makes it, ironically, a neat tool for organizing all sorts of activities for "upbringing" the young. Might even sneak into the learning sciences and STEM research. Interestingly, Yrjo, for whom ANL was a major early inspiration, focuses on development as breaking away and uses clever methods of cheating in Finnish schools to illustrate principles of dual stimulation. mike On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 5:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Although it is framed as a discussion of the Bakhtin "disputed texts" > question, Seve's article in "Contretemps" (see Juan's posting) raises a > much more important problem en passant. Seve would like us all to unread > Althusser, and he sees Vygotsky as a key figure in doing this. > > Althusser argued that the early "humanist" Marx of the Manifesto and of the > German Ideology was entirely supplanted by a mature, anti-humanist Marx of > Capital and the Grundrisse. This anti-humanist Marx was essentially a > structuralist: the commodity was a little like the "Selfish Gene" of > Richard Dawkins, using the individual instrumentally to construct a society > in its own image. > > As Seve points out, this kind of "Marxism" is particularly conducive > to Stalinism and even post-Stalinist ideas of how activity can structure > the human personality, but it is not at all conducive to understanding how > language can structure a human personality. It's conducive to Bukharinist > and even Foucaultian ideas of how society reproduces itself, virus-like, in > the individual, but it's not at all conducive to understanding, > contrariwise, a personality and even a whole socialist society as the > result of human individuation. That's where Vygotsky comes in. > > I remarked earlier that Seve considers "Mind in Society" to be a > "characteristically Anglo-American" distortion of Vygotsky's ideas about > individuation. What I didn't mention was that Seve considers that this > distortion was at least better than the situation that held in France until > 1985, when his wife brought out the first (!) translation of Vygotsky's > work into French (the French version of HDHMF is only now being brought > out!). Distortion is, after all, always better than outright suppression; > a careful reader can go along ways towards undistorting a text, but you > can't undistort silence. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: > > Seve also mentions, tantalizingly, that the heirs to the Vygotsky family > archive have sold all rights to a prestigious Canadian publisher, and this > publisher has yet to bring out a single volume. Does anyone know the > publisher in question? > > dk > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 7 20:40:54 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 04:40:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> mike! Would you kindly say more about "the neat tool for organizing all sorts of activities for 'upbringing' the young"? Would you expand upon that concept? It does seem ironic, and I would appreciate to understand how Stalinist affordances could actually be useful in today's age. I am greatly provoked by such a concept, and that's why I ask. Please help me understand this!!! Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 7 20:53:45 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2015 20:53:45 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> Message-ID: I fear i cannot do as you ask, Annalisa. My plate overfloweth and leaveth garbage around as it is. Perhaps others are in a position to elaborate or perhaps I was just being obscure. I think its an important topic. This might be one of the places where some curating would help. A lot of that discussion is in the MCA archive . Important documents include Andy's defense of Vygotsky available on Academic .edu and probably in the XMCA mail archive and Morten Nissen's article in Andy's book on projects that I sent around recently but seems to have landed under eveyone's radar but Greg's. Morten specifically points out this problem in the writings of Scandanvian/Nordic activity theorists. Pulling that all together could be quite informative. mike On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > mike! > > Would you kindly say more about "the neat tool for organizing all sorts of > activities for 'upbringing' the young"? > > Would you expand upon that concept? It does seem ironic, and I would > appreciate to understand how Stalinist affordances could actually be useful > in today's age. > > I am greatly provoked by such a concept, and that's why I ask. Please help > me understand this!!! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 7 21:08:19 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 05:08:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> Alas! mike, you have in your own special way done as I have asked by leaving breadcrumbs to the path that I must take. And for THAT I thank you for your kindnesses. In addition! I am happy to hear from others as well, for we are a community! :) So if anyone else out there has another crumb for the path, please will you FESS UP???? It is a good idea, mike, thinking to pull the threads together. I shall in my small way INVESTIGATE!!!! Kind regards on a Saturday after a nice day of sunshine! Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Saturday, February 7, 2015 9:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser I fear i cannot do as you ask, Annalisa. My plate overfloweth and leaveth garbage around as it is. Perhaps others are in a position to elaborate or perhaps I was just being obscure. I think its an important topic. This might be one of the places where some curating would help. A lot of that discussion is in the MCA archive . Important documents include Andy's defense of Vygotsky available on Academic .edu and probably in the XMCA mail archive and Morten Nissen's article in Andy's book on projects that I sent around recently but seems to have landed under eveyone's radar but Greg's. Morten specifically points out this problem in the writings of Scandanvian/Nordic activity theorists. Pulling that all together could be quite informative. mike On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > mike! > > Would you kindly say more about "the neat tool for organizing all sorts of > activities for 'upbringing' the young"? > > Would you expand upon that concept? It does seem ironic, and I would > appreciate to understand how Stalinist affordances could actually be useful > in today's age. > > I am greatly provoked by such a concept, and that's why I ask. Please help > me understand this!!! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 7 23:41:57 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 07:41:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu>, , <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> Hello esteemed xmcars, I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for discussion with the best of intentions. Kind regards, Annalisa From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Feb 8 07:11:35 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 15:11:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu>, , <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Annalise, I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs and kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the establishment view of the videos on a number of levels, while still trying to suggest that they are a better method than the more individualistic, traditional therapies of motivational interviewing and cognitive behavioral therapy. I can really sympathize, having spent a number of years on a research project comparing motivational interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler alert, neither of the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is all we do. U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen fears it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the video as an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this case Birren - life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I think that is what Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something controlled by the therapy community rather than integrated into the larger life scheme of the user. But I see this as a really complex argument. Yes, the way that Nissen describes this - as an advanced form of video story telling with trained videographers it does easily become an object rather than part of the processes of life. Whose video is it, the user's, the videographer's, the therapist's, the social work community establishment. But I think much of this has to do with understanding the role of this type of video storytelling, which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers to as the collective than the individual (I think this point is kind of made at the end of the article). But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A student working on our research project did her dissertation within a participatory action research format in which she organized the homeless youth/users (the study was about addiction among homeless youth) into a performance truth. She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would lead to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a much more grass roots, genuine way. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser Hello esteemed xmcars, I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for discussion with the best of intentions. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 8 09:10:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 09:10:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: ?Hi Michael --- Glad my earlier query concerning "video gallery" facilities finally made sense. Would it be possible to see your student's video? Is it on Youtube? mike? On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Annalise, > > I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs and > kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the establishment view > of the videos on a number of levels, while still trying to suggest that > they are a better method than the more individualistic, traditional > therapies of motivational interviewing and cognitive behavioral therapy. I > can really sympathize, having spent a number of years on a research project > comparing motivational interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler > alert, neither of the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is > all we do. > > U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen fears > it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the video as > an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this case Birren - > life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I think that is what > Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something controlled by the > therapy community rather than integrated into the larger life scheme of the > user. But I see this as a really complex argument. Yes, the way that > Nissen describes this - as an advanced form of video story telling with > trained videographers it does easily become an object rather than part of > the processes of life. Whose video is it, the user's, the videographer's, > the therapist's, the social work community establishment. But I think much > of this has to do with understanding the role of this type of video > storytelling, which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers > to as the collective than the individual (I think this point is kind of > made at the end of the article). > > But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to > finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs > where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A student > working on our research project did her dissertation within a participatory > action research format in which she organized the homeless youth/users (the > study was about addiction among homeless youth) into a performance truth. > She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would lead > to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a much more > grass roots, genuine way. > > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would like to > proffer that what he describes with the video production as a form of > therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), does resemble > to me the very kind of interactions that happened to create the Kitsch in > Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the favorite art of dictators (see > my previous post in this thread, in particularly I suggest in this context > the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). > > It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered > therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the future > by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what is > meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this case, > hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, which ends up > becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? > > I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not be > walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the concrete > blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to label the original > as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. > > Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and notions > of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at this point > of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for discussion with the > best of intentions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 8 09:21:11 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:21:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu>, , <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu>, <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu> Hi Michael! Thanks for your reply! Truth be told I am not quite sure even I understand my correlation between the video programs and the production of kitsch! :) I am functioning completely on the ribbon of intuition, so in the writing that happens here with you and others who also read and write this thread, I hope to discover that which is making me make this connection. In other words, we are in this together! One of the observations I make in reading your reply and in Nissen's paper is the absence of the notion that the video is displayed on a website that reproduces around the world. (For those of you who are unfamiliar with Walther Benjamin and his essay The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction see: https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm) Then there is how we look at the video post-MTV (post-post-MTV?) of Birren the drug addict singing about hope (in Turkish?) like a rockstar, and how this is expected to assuage the pain of being an addict, as a therapeutic form. I'm not sure I am representing that properly and I invite others to correct me, I won't take offense. What resonated for me in Nissen's paper is how the addiction is not seen as a result of modern life, but on the life of the addict and her therapy. He does mention it but doesn't spend much time on it, does he? We are looking at her like a madonna (or is it Madonna?), rather than considering why does the addict exist in the first place. What made Birren who she is? How did her problems develop? It may be that the act of doing the video has therapeutic effects, and I'm not attempting to eschew that, because really that is for Birren and her community to decide, to me that is a private affair. But we are gazing upon the video project therapy and that gaze is done in a specific way as to make it easy upon us to iconify what we want it to mean, that addicts can be rehabilitated, but into what? Into rockstars? This is what Kitsch does, it doesn't make you work, it is pleasant at first and then as you look at it more there is something disturbing, queasy, and upsetting about it. As Greenberg explains Kitsch, fulfills our desire to relax, to have things made easy and recognizable, which in a way erases all that is difficult (to think about), and what can be more difficult than facing the pain of drug addicts attempting to rebuild their lives? Or better how did they end up that way in the first place? So that is one level I'm responding to. Another is the notion of what is sociocultural theory and what is represented as sociocultural theory. Vygotsky is enigmatic because of his individual manner of producing texts, but also because a minority of contemporaries understood him, and then the historical reality of his death in post revolutionary Russia, and all that that follows, etc. But also the way we have come to know his texts, which has been piecemeal, like a jigsaw, and archeology of knowledges, and in the way we are all in a sense still on pins and needles to hear the riddle from the Sphinx, so that we might garner a whole picture of Vygotsky's work which is really to get to the inner sanctum of his thinking. Yet another layer of complexity is the critics that have proliferated and chastised the work as being flawed, such as looking at Da Vinci's Adoration of the Magi, which will never be finished. This is far more complex than that, because at least with the painting we sense what it was going to look like, but with Vygotsky there are many different Vygotsky's and so it would be more like if the Adoration of the Magi had been torn up into parts and flung to different parts of the world, and the fate of fates would decide if the pieces come back to make a complete whole. To continue, I would say that the immediacy of a kids using video to create their own stories is what I will call "true" or "authentic" forms of interaction and play, they can discover themselves in the act of doing and doing with peers to produce something meaningful to themselves, as such the results of what they create are less likely to fall into preordained categories. They might, but it isn't preordained to fall into preordained categories. In the case of reproducing the MTV simulacra it is following a script of what it is to be a rockstar singing on a video (and what is the result of that? Adoration of the Magi? and the more professional this is, the better. But is this "authentic" sociocultural theory? That is what I'm not sure about. There is a whole lot more I might say, but I think that is good for this round. :) Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2015 8:11 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser Hi Annalise, I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs and kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the establishment view of the videos on a number of levels, while still trying to suggest that they are a better method than the more individualistic, traditional therapies of motivational interviewing and cognitive behavioral therapy. I can really sympathize, having spent a number of years on a research project comparing motivational interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler alert, neither of the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is all we do. U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen fears it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the video as an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this case Birren - life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I think that is what Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something controlled by the therapy community rather than integrated into the larger life scheme of the user. But I see this as a really complex argument. Yes, the way that Nissen describes this - as an advanced form of video story telling with trained videographers it does easily become an object rather than part of the processes of life. Whose video is it, the user's, the videographer's, the therapist's, the social work community establishment. But I think much of this has to do with understanding the role of this type of video storytelling, which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers to as the collective than the indiv idual (I think this point is kind of made at the end of the article). But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A student working on our research project did her dissertation within a participatory action research format in which she organized the homeless youth/users (the study was about addiction among homeless youth) into a performance truth. She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would lead to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a much more grass roots, genuine way. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser Hello esteemed xmcars, I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for discussion with the best of intentions. Kind regards, Annalisa From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Feb 8 09:21:36 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:21:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EE3D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> The student couldn't do videos even though that was her original intent because of IRB problems (it is based on a PAR study using videos in a small Canadian town). So she just developed a performance troupe. I don't feel comfortable putting up her work without her permission but if anybody is interested I can give you some information off-line. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 12:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser ?Hi Michael --- Glad my earlier query concerning "video gallery" facilities finally made sense. Would it be possible to see your student's video? Is it on Youtube? mike? On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Annalise, > > I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs > and kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the > establishment view of the videos on a number of levels, while still > trying to suggest that they are a better method than the more > individualistic, traditional therapies of motivational interviewing > and cognitive behavioral therapy. I can really sympathize, having > spent a number of years on a research project comparing motivational > interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler alert, neither of > the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is all we do. > > U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen > fears it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the > video as an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this > case Birren - life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I > think that is what Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something > controlled by the therapy community rather than integrated into the > larger life scheme of the user. But I see this as a really complex > argument. Yes, the way that Nissen describes this - as an advanced > form of video story telling with trained videographers it does easily > become an object rather than part of the processes of life. Whose > video is it, the user's, the videographer's, the therapist's, the > social work community establishment. But I think much of this has to > do with understanding the role of this type of video storytelling, > which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers to as > the collective than the individual (I think this point is kind of made at the end of the article). > > But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to > finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs > where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A > student working on our research project did her dissertation within a > participatory action research format in which she organized the > homeless youth/users (the study was about addiction among homeless youth) into a performance truth. > She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would > lead to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a > much more grass roots, genuine way. > > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would > like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a > form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), > does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to > create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the > favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in > particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). > > It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered > therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the > future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what > is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this > case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, > which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? > > I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not > be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the > concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to > label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. > > Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and > notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at > this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for > discussion with the best of intentions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 8 09:26:12 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 09:26:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EE3D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EE3D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: ?I am interested, Michael. lchcmike@gmail.com mike? On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > The student couldn't do videos even though that was her original intent > because of IRB problems (it is based on a PAR study using videos in a small > Canadian town). So she just developed a performance troupe. I don't feel > comfortable putting up her work without her permission but if anybody is > interested I can give you some information off-line. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 12:10 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > ?Hi Michael --- Glad my earlier query concerning "video gallery" > facilities finally made sense. > Would it be possible to see your student's video? Is it on Youtube? > mike? > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > > Hi Annalise, > > > > I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs > > and kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the > > establishment view of the videos on a number of levels, while still > > trying to suggest that they are a better method than the more > > individualistic, traditional therapies of motivational interviewing > > and cognitive behavioral therapy. I can really sympathize, having > > spent a number of years on a research project comparing motivational > > interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler alert, neither of > > the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is all we do. > > > > U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen > > fears it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the > > video as an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this > > case Birren - life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I > > think that is what Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something > > controlled by the therapy community rather than integrated into the > > larger life scheme of the user. But I see this as a really complex > > argument. Yes, the way that Nissen describes this - as an advanced > > form of video story telling with trained videographers it does easily > > become an object rather than part of the processes of life. Whose > > video is it, the user's, the videographer's, the therapist's, the > > social work community establishment. But I think much of this has to > > do with understanding the role of this type of video storytelling, > > which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers to as > > the collective than the individual (I think this point is kind of made > at the end of the article). > > > > But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to > > finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs > > where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A > > student working on our research project did her dissertation within a > > participatory action research format in which she organized the > > homeless youth/users (the study was about addiction among homeless > youth) into a performance truth. > > She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would > > lead to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a > > much more grass roots, genuine way. > > > > > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > > > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > > > I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would > > like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a > > form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), > > does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to > > create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the > > favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in > > particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as > the WSJ article). > > > > It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered > > therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the > > future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what > > is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this > > case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, > > which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? > > > > I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not > > be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the > > concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to > > label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I > am realizing. > > > > Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and > > notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at > > this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for > > discussion with the best of intentions. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Feb 8 09:59:02 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 12:59:02 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Activity theory Message-ID: Mike cole, Mike I am reading some of your work for a paper I am working on. ?It appears to be a parallel between your activity theory and the structurationist works of giddens, bourdieu, and Marshall sahlins. ?Although habermas's work is included in structuration theory I do not see so much of his work in yours. ?Do you a paper where you compare your activity theory with structurationists sociology? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info? From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Feb 8 10:15:19 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 10:15:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I want to repeat the question at the end of David's message, about the "prestigious Canadian publisher" who has bought all the rights to the Vygotsky archives. Does anyone know anything about that? Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 7, 2015, at 5:14 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Although it is framed as a discussion of the Bakhtin "disputed texts" > question, Seve's article in "Contretemps" (see Juan's posting) raises a > much more important problem en passant. Seve would like us all to unread > Althusser, and he sees Vygotsky as a key figure in doing this. > > Althusser argued that the early "humanist" Marx of the Manifesto and of the > German Ideology was entirely supplanted by a mature, anti-humanist Marx of > Capital and the Grundrisse. This anti-humanist Marx was essentially a > structuralist: the commodity was a little like the "Selfish Gene" of > Richard Dawkins, using the individual instrumentally to construct a society > in its own image. > > As Seve points out, this kind of "Marxism" is particularly conducive > to Stalinism and even post-Stalinist ideas of how activity can structure > the human personality, but it is not at all conducive to understanding how > language can structure a human personality. It's conducive to Bukharinist > and even Foucaultian ideas of how society reproduces itself, virus-like, in > the individual, but it's not at all conducive to understanding, > contrariwise, a personality and even a whole socialist society as the > result of human individuation. That's where Vygotsky comes in. > > I remarked earlier that Seve considers "Mind in Society" to be a > "characteristically Anglo-American" distortion of Vygotsky's ideas about > individuation. What I didn't mention was that Seve considers that this > distortion was at least better than the situation that held in France until > 1985, when his wife brought out the first (!) translation of Vygotsky's > work into French (the French version of HDHMF is only now being brought > out!). Distortion is, after all, always better than outright suppression; > a careful reader can go along ways towards undistorting a text, but you > can't undistort silence. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: > > Seve also mentions, tantalizingly, that the heirs to the Vygotsky family > archive have sold all rights to a prestigious Canadian publisher, and this > publisher has yet to bring out a single volume. Does anyone know the > publisher in question? > > dk From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Feb 8 15:47:18 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 16:47:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EE3D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EE3D@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <57D0579E-A6E3-4073-861B-CAD8CE9503B0@gmail.com> Hi Michael, Thank you very much! I would be interested. Henry > On Feb 8, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > The student couldn't do videos even though that was her original intent because of IRB problems (it is based on a PAR study using videos in a small Canadian town). So she just developed a performance troupe. I don't feel comfortable putting up her work without her permission but if anybody is interested I can give you some information off-line. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 12:10 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > ?Hi Michael --- Glad my earlier query concerning "video gallery" > facilities finally made sense. > Would it be possible to see your student's video? Is it on Youtube? > mike? > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 7:11 AM, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > >> Hi Annalise, >> >> I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs >> and kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the >> establishment view of the videos on a number of levels, while still >> trying to suggest that they are a better method than the more >> individualistic, traditional therapies of motivational interviewing >> and cognitive behavioral therapy. I can really sympathize, having >> spent a number of years on a research project comparing motivational >> interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler alert, neither of >> the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is all we do. >> >> U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen >> fears it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the >> video as an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this >> case Birren - life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I >> think that is what Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something >> controlled by the therapy community rather than integrated into the >> larger life scheme of the user. But I see this as a really complex >> argument. Yes, the way that Nissen describes this - as an advanced >> form of video story telling with trained videographers it does easily >> become an object rather than part of the processes of life. Whose >> video is it, the user's, the videographer's, the therapist's, the >> social work community establishment. But I think much of this has to >> do with understanding the role of this type of video storytelling, >> which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers to as >> the collective than the individual (I think this point is kind of made at the end of the article). >> >> But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to >> finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs >> where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A >> student working on our research project did her dissertation within a >> participatory action research format in which she organized the >> homeless youth/users (the study was about addiction among homeless youth) into a performance truth. >> She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would >> lead to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a >> much more grass roots, genuine way. >> >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser >> >> Hello esteemed xmcars, >> >> I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would >> like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a >> form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), >> does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to >> create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the >> favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in >> particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). >> >> It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered >> therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the >> future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what >> is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this >> case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, >> which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? >> >> I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not >> be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the >> concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to >> label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. >> >> Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and >> notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at >> this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for >> discussion with the best of intentions. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Feb 8 16:08:50 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 17:08:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <, > <, > <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <, > <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, Thank you! On a lazy Sunday afternoon where the weather is breaking good, I have read the Benjamin and Greenberg articles you proffered. Loved them. They read so NOW!!! Wonderful artefacts/tools. Henry > On Feb 8, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Michael! > > Thanks for your reply! > > Truth be told I am not quite sure even I understand my correlation between the video programs and the production of kitsch! :) I am functioning completely on the ribbon of intuition, so in the writing that happens here with you and others who also read and write this thread, I hope to discover that which is making me make this connection. In other words, we are in this together! > > One of the observations I make in reading your reply and in Nissen's paper is the absence of the notion that the video is displayed on a website that reproduces around the world. (For those of you who are unfamiliar with Walther Benjamin and his essay The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction see: https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm) > > Then there is how we look at the video post-MTV (post-post-MTV?) of Birren the drug addict singing about hope (in Turkish?) like a rockstar, and how this is expected to assuage the pain of being an addict, as a therapeutic form. I'm not sure I am representing that properly and I invite others to correct me, I won't take offense. > > What resonated for me in Nissen's paper is how the addiction is not seen as a result of modern life, but on the life of the addict and her therapy. He does mention it but doesn't spend much time on it, does he? We are looking at her like a madonna (or is it Madonna?), rather than considering why does the addict exist in the first place. What made Birren who she is? How did her problems develop? > > It may be that the act of doing the video has therapeutic effects, and I'm not attempting to eschew that, because really that is for Birren and her community to decide, to me that is a private affair. But we are gazing upon the video project therapy and that gaze is done in a specific way as to make it easy upon us to iconify what we want it to mean, that addicts can be rehabilitated, but into what? Into rockstars? This is what Kitsch does, it doesn't make you work, it is pleasant at first and then as you look at it more there is something disturbing, queasy, and upsetting about it. As Greenberg explains Kitsch, fulfills our desire to relax, to have things made easy and recognizable, which in a way erases all that is difficult (to think about), and what can be more difficult than facing the pain of drug addicts attempting to rebuild their lives? Or better how did they end up that way in the first place? > > So that is one level I'm responding to. > > Another is the notion of what is sociocultural theory and what is represented as sociocultural theory. Vygotsky is enigmatic because of his individual manner of producing texts, but also because a minority of contemporaries understood him, and then the historical reality of his death in post revolutionary Russia, and all that that follows, etc. But also the way we have come to know his texts, which has been piecemeal, like a jigsaw, and archeology of knowledges, and in the way we are all in a sense still on pins and needles to hear the riddle from the Sphinx, so that we might garner a whole picture of Vygotsky's work which is really to get to the inner sanctum of his thinking. Yet another layer of complexity is the critics that have proliferated and chastised the work as being flawed, such as looking at Da Vinci's Adoration of the Magi, which will never be finished. This is far more complex than that, because at least with the painting we sense what it was going to look like, but with Vygotsky there are many different Vygotsky's and so it would be more like if the Adoration of the Magi had been torn up into parts and flung to different parts of the world, and the fate of fates would decide if the pieces come back to make a complete whole. > > To continue, I would say that the immediacy of a kids using video to create their own stories is what I will call "true" or "authentic" forms of interaction and play, they can discover themselves in the act of doing and doing with peers to produce something meaningful to themselves, as such the results of what they create are less likely to fall into preordained categories. They might, but it isn't preordained to fall into preordained categories. In the case of reproducing the MTV simulacra it is following a script of what it is to be a rockstar singing on a video (and what is the result of that? Adoration of the Magi? and the more professional this is, the better. But is this "authentic" sociocultural theory? That is what I'm not sure about. > > There is a whole lot more I might say, but I think that is good for this round. :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Glassman, Michael > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2015 8:11 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > Hi Annalise, > > I am not sure I understand your correlation between the video programs and kitsch. It seems to me Morten Nissen is critiquing the establishment view of the videos on a number of levels, while still trying to suggest that they are a better method than the more individualistic, traditional therapies of motivational interviewing and cognitive behavioral therapy. I can really sympathize, having spent a number of years on a research project comparing motivational interviewing, CBT and treatment as usual (spoiler alert, neither of the interventions have any real impact). And yet that is all we do. > > U-turn suggests a new method, except at least it seems to me Nissen fears it falling into similar traps. One of the traps is treating the video as an object that forces reconsideration of the user's - in this case Birren - life structure leading to drug addiction - at least I think that is what Nissen is saying. That the video becomes something controlled by the therapy community rather than integrated into the larger life scheme of the user. But I see this as a really complex argument. Yes, the way that Nissen describes this - as an advanced form of video story telling with trained videographers it does easily become an object rather than part of the processes of life. Whose video is it, the user's, the videographer's, the therapist's, the social work community establishment. But I think much of this has to do with understanding the role of this type of video storytelling, which is more about the community, what Nissen I think refers to as the collective than the indiv > idual (I think this point is kind of made at the end of the article). > > But what if it could be a different type of video, made from start to finish by Birren and other users. Mike's earlier request for programs where individuals can easily make videos makes much more sense. A student working on our research project did her dissertation within a participatory action research format in which she organized the homeless youth/users (the study was about addiction among homeless youth) into a performance truth. She also was looking to create the performance as an object that would lead to reflection on the structure of their lives, but I think in a much more grass roots, genuine way. > > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2015 2:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser > > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > I have done a quick reading of Morten Nissen's chapter and I would like to proffer that what he describes with the video production as a form of therapy for the drug addict (as sponsored by state programs), does resemble to me the very kind of interactions that happened to create the Kitsch in Art and how it came to be that Kitsch is the favorite art of dictators (see my previous post in this thread, in particularly I suggest in this context the essay by Greenberg as well as the WSJ article). > > It is as if what is considered hopeful (helpful), what is considered therapeutic(empowering), which is done to transcend the past and the future by being in the present, all that is erased by collapsing what is meaningful into a formula of the unique or of sentiment (in this case, hope), a kind of M?bius strip of experience as possibility, which ends up becoming meaningless. Is the glass half full or half empty? > > I'm being a more than a little intuitive here, knowing that I may not be walking on terra firma, which may not be very smart as I risk the concrete blocks of "dogma" crashing around my head: It is easy to label the original as dogma if one has adopted the stance of kitsch, I am realizing. > > Despite that risk, I sense similar patterns to Nissen's paper and notions of kitsch (and how kitsch is created), and while I'm unsure at this point of time if this observation has merit, I offer it for discussion with the best of intentions. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 8 18:08:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 02:08:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <, > <, > <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <, > <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423447694660.46938@unm.edu> Hi Henry! Yes, the Greenberg and Benjamin essays are perennial! It is difficult to remember what the world was like before the Internet, and even harder to recall what the world was like when one had to stand in front of a work of art in order to know it. There are relationships to mechanical reproduction and the kitsch in art, but in terms of education and research, the collision of more texts to read and less time to work with texts to sufficiently understand them means that there is likely less going deeply into them, and more skimming than what may be already the case. It's almost an inversion of the difficulty of getting your hands on an article from a hard to find publication. (I'd be curious if any elders want to share what that world used to be like?) Just to get a book or a newspaper in the middle of nowhere, say Java or Timbuktu or Alaska, was a huge deal 150 years ago and one might read something several times, which was particularly the case when books were rare and expensive. People would love and care for the text by learning it by heart. Now it's about skimming or pumping up one's speed reading skills, and even if one acquires this ability there will never be enough time to read the entire Internet!!! Today, we must pick and chose what we let inside our heads. What I wonder if this practice of over-proliferation can cause the emergences of "bubbles of knowledge"? People think they know but in reality they do not; they possess an appearance of knowledge with no substance. I like the metaphor of the soap-bubble, as this was used in The Historical Meaning of the Crisis in Psychology (Chapter 3 The Development of the Sciences) but in a different way. In that case, it was real knowledge that developed from an idea into a discovery and how that discovery becomes integrated into the cultural scientific practice which it concerns and is eventually supplanted by subsequent ideas that in turn develop into new discoveries and so on. A huge, cooking stew of bubbling layers of understanding! But this is different: what happens when there is a high reproduction of pseudo-knowledge over authentic-knowledge? When simulacra gets mixed in with the originals? Consider the viability of the Huffington Post 15 years ago, no one would have thought it possible to be a valid organ of news. So if knowledge is considered merely interpretive, that we can vote upon based upon whether we like it or not, then it is only a matter of time that the inauthentic proliferates hiding the authentic from view. (Will the real Vygotsky please stand up?) There is a potential that education becomes a farce upon itself. These stories of knowledge aren't knowledge, but possess something like what Steven Colbert calls "truthiness". Hence, the Internet can be just as easily be a platform for distributing incorrect understanding over actual understanding. Meaning-making becomes meaningless. So that's what I'm thinking about as of late. How is it possible to ensure proper understanding? And who decides what is proper? How to tell the original from the kitsch, if you've never seen the original? In any case, I'm thrilled that you enjoyed the essays, I hope with a nice cup of tea! Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 8 18:08:17 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 18:08:17 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul. I am an autodidact in Activity Theory, Cultural-historical, theory, etc. I greatly admire the work of Sahlins and the others you mention as well. There are clear connections to ideas of Habermas as well as Foucault. I employ that at various places in my work, but mostly in the domain of instruction in the Communication Department, and rarely in writing. The thing about autodidacts is that they tend to appear outrageously eclectic to the cognisenti. Which provides many occasions for enlightenment! :-) At a another level of analysis, the work of Kenneth Burke seems important to me. mike On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Mike cole, > > Mike I am reading some of your work for a paper I am working on. It > appears to be a parallel between your activity theory and the > structurationist works of giddens, bourdieu, and Marshall sahlins. > Although habermas's work is included in structuration theory I do not see > so much of his work in yours. Do you a paper where you compare your > activity theory with structurationists sociology? > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Feb 8 18:25:20 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 21:25:20 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity theory Message-ID: Thanks mike...in the paper I refer to you as an activity/praxis theorists, which represents a neo-Marxist interpretation of vygotskyian psychology...i hope that is an adequate representation of your work... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole
Date:02/08/2015 9:08 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity theory
Paul. I am an autodidact in Activity Theory, Cultural-historical, theory, etc. I greatly admire the work of Sahlins and the others you mention as well. There are clear connections to ideas of Habermas as well as Foucault. I employ that at various places in my work, but mostly in the domain of instruction in the Communication Department, and rarely in writing. The thing about autodidacts is that they tend to appear outrageously eclectic to the cognisenti. Which provides many occasions for enlightenment! :-) At a another level of analysis, the work of Kenneth Burke seems important to me. mike On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Mike cole, > > Mike I am reading some of your work for a paper I am working on. It > appears to be a parallel between your activity theory and the > structurationist works of giddens, bourdieu, and Marshall sahlins. > Although habermas's work is included in structuration theory I do not see > so much of his work in yours. Do you a paper where you compare your > activity theory with structurationists sociology? > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 8 18:44:46 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 02:44:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <1423447694660.46938@unm.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <, > <, > <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <, > <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu>, , <1423447694660.46938@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1423449886075.26824@unm.edu> Hello esteemed xmcars, Interestingly, Marshall Sahlins has recently published a book called, "Confucius Institutes: Academic Malware." http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/C/bo20637267.html Seems as if my fear has materialized! Apparently, Sahlin's suggested solution is to shun those who proliferate academic malpractice, in this case the Confucious Institutes. I'd never heard of them before. Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Feb 8 20:22:22 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 20:22:22 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Could Life Be [exploring hope] Message-ID: I overlooked the invitation to read and discuss Morten Nissen's article which was sent recently. [I attached again] I am going to reference page 97 - 98 to once again return to the notion of meaning and sense. Morten refers to Drier drawing on social phenomenology [Schultz, Husserl, Heidegger]. Drier highlights spatio-temporality [here and now] AS A REACTION to the obvious alternative -structural-functional "versions" of Marxist social theory that have become part of the cultural-historical tradition. This structuralist "approach" derives "social units" from the "standard" intentional structure "as given" in a functional division of labour. The unit of an activity would be "defined" from within a notion of the "object" or "object-motive". Collectives in question are defined in an either/or version. In this article either the U-Turn is a therapy group with the object of cure OR the U-Turn is a film crew with the object of a music video. [a structural-functional way of defining the "events". The "structure of practice" which Ilyenkov called the "objective form of subjective activity" is thus declared "identical" with [this is the key point] that subjective activity "itself" Subjectivity is reduced to the objective "meaning". The "con-version" of meaning [objective] into "sense" [inner form] is no longer problematic. With this form of "reasoning" [as reduction] we now are prejudiced to "see" that we can now "know" [with this approach] "directly" about "subjectivity". I hope I have been faithful to what Morten was intending to make clear. These are alternative versions [and visions]. I would add they are enacting alternative "meta-phors" or images of the ideal but that is extending towards Zinchenko's notion of "inner form" and going beyond this paper. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FEBRUARY 8 2015 NISSEN MORTEN Could Life Be.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 564370 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150208/c79afbba/attachment-0001.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Feb 8 21:40:34 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 14:40:34 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: <1423449886075.26824@unm.edu> References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu> <1423447694660.46938@unm.edu> <1423449886075.26824@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa: Sahlins' attacks on the Confucius Institutes have been discussed in this space before. Some things to keep in mind. a) Sahlins is worried about the ideological purity of the University of Chicago, an institution whose links to terror regimes such as the Chilean junta under Pinochet, Israel under Menachem Begin...and Taiwan under Chiang Kai-shek. When I was studying there, the Taiwanese regime was allowed to carry on bitter anti-communist and even anti-Taiwanese propaganda in the Chinese department where I was studying; Professor Sahlins, who was in the UC anthropology department at the time, never to my knowledge objected. b) Chinese complaints about the so-called Tibetan government in exile have nothing to do with the demand for greater autonomy, a demand Beijing has always been ready to negotiate; they have everything to do with the fact that the former slave owners and serf-owners, after decades of terror attacks against the Chinese population of Tibet with CIA backing from bases in Nepal, now advocate a form of ethnic cleansing for Tibet under the rubric of "independence". c) Chinese is the first major pretender to a "global" language in our era to be taught by non-white people. No objections were EVER raised to the global teaching of French, Spanish, or English, even when the institutions teaching these languages were heavily involved in colonial and neocolonial enterprises (viz., the British Council, AID, Alliance Francaise). David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 9 February 2015 at 11:44, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello esteemed xmcars, > > Interestingly, Marshall Sahlins has recently published a book called, > "Confucius Institutes: Academic Malware." > http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/C/bo20637267.html > > Seems as if my fear has materialized! > > Apparently, Sahlin's suggested solution is to shun those who proliferate > academic malpractice, in this case the Confucious Institutes. I'd never > heard of them before. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Feb 8 22:05:27 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 15:05:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Verismo and Kitsch Message-ID: In Leoncavallo's opera "Pagliacci", there is a love triangle in a group of travelling Commedia del arte performers. They stage an performance for a group of villagers (in which the theme of a deceived husband is burlesqued). In the middle of the performance, the deceived husband murders his wife, and the opera ends with the famous line "La commedia e finita!" Leoncavallo tried hard to convince his audience that it was a true story based on a murder that happened in his own family, but he was sued for plagiarism by another author, and the suit was only dropped when still another author sued the plaintiff.. The evidence, actually, is that Leoncavallo wrote the opera out of jealousy of his colleague Mascagni's "Cavalleria Rusticana", which has a very similar triangle, an opera which is often paired with "Pagliacci" to this day. The idea of putting a play within a play and giving the real audience a frisson of wonder about the reality of the stage death is certainly part of art; it goes all the way back to Hamlet and even before (Shakespeare stole the idea of a play within a play with real murders from Kyd's "The Spanish Tragedy", which was showing while Hamlet was being composed.) But very few people would admit that snuff pornography--that is, pornography in which the actors are actually murdered--is a legitimate art form. So how to draw the line, and why? And does the line tell us anything about the difference between Kitsch and other forms of art. Vygotsky says that art is a social technique of emotion--real emotion brought about by unreal events. He also sees art as a process of indviduation, not socialization. Where Bukharin and his "Proletkult" movement saw art as being the "infection" of the masses by the emotions of a lone artist, Vygotsky sees exactly the opposite--the individuation of the emotion of an artwork by the viewer. Snuff pornography doesn't and cannot do this: it's not a real emotion brought about by unreal events but rather an unreal emotion (in relation to what we would really feel if we witnessed a murder) brought about by real events. But Hamlet can and does this: in fact, sensationalism is deliberately deferred throughout the four hours of tergiversation by the title character, and the sensationalist terror evoked by Kyd is brilliantly transformed into intra-mental horror. Kitsch cannot and doesn't do this: the emotions that Jeff Koons evokes are not real emotions at all, since his art is all about himself and his celebrity (and the same thing goes for Lady Gaga and a great deal of the "knowing, winking" kitsch that passes for art these days). it is not art, but rather a parody of art we are being given. As Adorno says, every form of art has to have some vision of the good life, even if it is only etched as a negative. But if the "good life" were simply is simply the commercial success of the artist which we are ordered to vicariously enjoy, then what we are given is a real situation with unreal emotions, as in snuff pornography, and not an unreal situation with real ones, as in verismo. Verismo--in Pagliacci, Cavalleria Rusticana--uses an unreal play within a play about an unreal play to create real emotions: "Actors have feelings too," as Tonio says. There is some dispute about whether Tonio or the murderer "Pagliacci" speaks the line "La commedia e finita". My own view is that Tonio should say it, because the show must go on. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Feb 9 08:46:18 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 08:46:18 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you say so, Paul. A lot of knowledgeable people would not be so kind. mike On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:25 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Thanks mike...in the paper I refer to you as an activity/praxis theorists, > which represents a neo-Marxist interpretation of vygotskyian psychology...i > hope that is an adequate representation of your work... > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole < > mcole@ucsd.edu>
Date:02/08/2015 9:08 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity theory
>
Paul. I am an autodidact in Activity Theory, Cultural-historical, > theory, > etc. I greatly admire the work of Sahlins and the others you mention as > well. There are clear connections to ideas of Habermas as well as Foucault. > I employ that at various places in my work, but mostly in the domain of > instruction in the Communication Department, and rarely in writing. > > The thing about autodidacts is that they tend to appear outrageously > eclectic to the cognisenti. Which provides many occasions for > enlightenment! :-) > > At a another level of analysis, the work of Kenneth Burke seems important > to me. > > mike > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > wrote: > > > Mike cole, > > > > Mike I am reading some of your work for a paper I am working on. It > > appears to be a parallel between your activity theory and the > > structurationist works of giddens, bourdieu, and Marshall sahlins. > > Although habermas's work is included in structuration theory I do not see > > so much of his work in yours. Do you a paper where you compare your > > activity theory with structurationists sociology? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From smago@uga.edu Mon Feb 9 08:54:18 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 16:54:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached Message-ID: The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Am Educ Res J-2015-Fallace-73-103 (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 169870 bytes Desc: Am Educ Res J-2015-Fallace-73-103 (1).pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150209/0e676f35/attachment.pdf From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Feb 9 09:19:24 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 17:19:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not Dewey. Just my take. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Cc: cori jakubiak Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 09:42:20 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 09:42:20 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Could Life Be [exploring hope] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am attaching a 2nd chapter from Andy's edited book "Collaborative Projects" This Chapter 2 by Vianna, Hougaard, and Stetsenko. [The Dialectics of Collective and Individual Transformation: Transformative Activist Research in a Collaborative Learning Community Project]. As I read the Morten Nissen article and this article I am reminded of our exploration of "third space" theory and "hybrid spaces". This article uses the notion of "collectividual spaces" which I propose is another instance of creating "third spaces". https://www.academia.edu/8208504/The_dialectics_of_collective_and_individual_transformation_Transformative_activist_research_in_a_collaborative_Learning_community_project._By_Vianna_E._Hougaard_N._and_Stetsenko_A._2014_._In_A._Blunden_ed._Collaborative_Projects_pp._59-87_._Leiden_the_Netherlands_Brille_Publishers I want to invite others to read page 62 which is describing aspects of Stetsenko's concept of TAS [Transformative Activist Stance]. This article is suggesting TAS is an "expansion" of the "broadly interpreted" Marxist and Vygotskian positions [dispositions??] The intentional expansion of these dispositions is expressed within this articles "re-fashioning" the Marxist and Vygotskian positions to more centrally focus on "synergies of individual AND collective subjectivity and agency" The central premise is that people come to know themselves and their world and ultimately come to "be human" *in and through* [not in addition to] the collectividualist processes transforming their world "in view of" their goals and purposes. Furthermore, TAS also is "expanding" Marxist and Vygotskian dispositions by *explicitly* integrating Bahktin's *approach* [in its focus on *postuplenie - transformative historical *and ideological Becoming through activist contributions to *historically unfolding *practices] TAS becomes instantiated in specific projects. This approach enacts "scenes" or "spaces" [third hybrid collectividualist spaces] AS [as if] a radically new *ontology and epistemology* that "unites" being, knowing, and doing as *aspects* of one unified process of human development. I am suggesting this radically new "scene" or "space" that "unfolds" can be envisioned [using the meta-phor] as "third space" which developmentally "comes into being" and this process offers "hope" as the "third space" of "could be ..." becoming "real" or actual. Meta-phor not as "mere" ornament to the "real" but more radically meta-phor as "real" and the image of "third spaces" I am pointing to this "expansion" as possibly "returning to" including "inner form" within TAS and "third spaces" and other meta-phorically imaged reality. Larry On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I overlooked the invitation to read and discuss Morten Nissen's article > which was sent recently. [I attached again] > > I am going to reference page 97 - 98 to once again return to the notion of > meaning and sense. > Morten refers to Drier drawing on social phenomenology [Schultz, Husserl, > Heidegger]. Drier highlights spatio-temporality [here and now] AS A > REACTION to the obvious alternative -structural-functional "versions" of > Marxist social theory that have become part of the cultural-historical > tradition. This structuralist "approach" derives "social units" from the > "standard" intentional structure "as given" in a functional division of > labour. The unit of an activity would be "defined" from within a notion of > the "object" or "object-motive". > Collectives in question are defined in an either/or version. In this > article either the U-Turn is a therapy group with the object of cure OR the > U-Turn is a film crew with the object of a music video. [a > structural-functional way of defining the "events". > > The "structure of practice" which Ilyenkov called the "objective form of > subjective activity" is thus declared "identical" with [this is the key > point] that subjective activity "itself" Subjectivity is reduced to the > objective "meaning". > > The "con-version" of meaning [objective] into "sense" [inner form] is no > longer problematic. With this form of "reasoning" [as reduction] we now are > prejudiced to "see" that we can now "know" [with this approach] "directly" > about "subjectivity". > > I hope I have been faithful to what Morten was intending to make clear. > These are alternative versions [and visions]. > I would add they are enacting alternative "meta-phors" or images of the > ideal but that is extending towards Zinchenko's notion of "inner form" and > going beyond this paper. > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Mon Feb 9 10:11:30 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 18:11:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I share your reservations, Michael. I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over the lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets at the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea that adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism would suggest). It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems wrongheaded to me. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not Dewey. Just my take. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Cc: cori jakubiak Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Feb 9 10:53:01 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 13:53:01 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: It is interesting to note that the Cherokee viewed white people as half baked in the great spirit's creation oven :-). And...while we are on the topic, it is important to distinguish between "student centered" and "learner centered" activity in a ZPD. Vygotsky is very clear on the role of the mentor/teacher?s role to lead in development even though the goal is the co-construction of knowledge. In this context it becomes necessary to distinguish between a ?student centered? approaches with a ?learner centered? one. In both approaches, what the student is able to internalize is more important than a ?top down? method which is characterized by a teacher centered delivery of instruction. But in a learner centered environment, the teacher or mentor is able to maintain certain parameters within the target subject matter in an environment of interaction and dialogue that enhances student voice and personal agency. *Zone of Proximal Development-*The developmental space between a learner?s actual and potential levels of, thinking, problem solving, acting and being. There are many similarities between Vygotsky?s view of learner centeredness and problem solving/problem posing education and that of the Brazilian educator, Paulo Freire (1921-1997) and although they obviously never knew each other they were both influenced similarly by Hegel and Marx. Joe Kincheloe had this to say about Freire?s approach to teaching. The parallels to Vygotsky?s views are striking. By promoting problem posing and student research, teachers do not simply relinquish their authority in the classroom. Over the last couple of decades several teachers and students have misunderstood the subtlety of the nature of teacher authority in a critical pedagogy. Freire in the last years of his life was very concerned with this issue and its misinterpretation by those operating in his name. Teachers, he told me, cannot deny their position of authority in such a classroom. It is the teacher, not the students, who evaluates student work, who is responsible for the health, safety, and learning of students. To deny the role of authority the teacher occupies is insincere at best, dishonest at worst. Critical teachers, therefore, must admit that they are in a position of authority and then demonstrate that authority [sic] in their actions in support of students. One of the actions involves the ability to conduct research/produce knowledge. The authority of the critical teacher is *dialectical*; as teachers relinquish the authority of truth providers, they assume the mature authority of facilitators of student inquiry and problem posing. In relation to such teacher authority, students gain their freedom--they gain the ability to become self-directed human beings capable of producing their own knowledge. (Kincheloe, 2008, p.17) This notion of the role of the teacher in the ZPD brings us to Vygotsky?s use of the Russian word for education, *obuchenie *which is translated as teaching but ?is interchangeable for the activity of the teachers and students. (Wink & Putney, 2003, p.xxiii). This means that Vygotsky viewed teaching as learning and therefore confirms what we said about the role of teachers in the progressive classroom. In the mind of Vygotsky, the zone of proximal development is environment out of which the teacher and the student co-construct and create knowledge together rather than just moving in the ?top down? approach that Freire calls the ?banking model? of education wherein the teacher makes ?deposits? of knowledge into the empty ?account? of the student and draws the information back out on test days in the exact form and manner in which it was deposited. On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I share your reservations, Michael. > > I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his > powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. > The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of > which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, > prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political > radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over the > lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets at > the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea that > adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism > would suggest). > > It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair > the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an > indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems wrongheaded > to me. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It > fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and > educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. > I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not > that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues > such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's > pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist > ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey > struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to > merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect > arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing > recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the > school and the teachers and not Dewey. > > Just my take. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Cc: cori jakubiak > Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > > The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace > William Paterson University of New Jersey > > Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, > the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical > study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from > the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White > child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation > was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at > the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators > uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a > major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently > ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental > endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically > less developed than their White counterparts. > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 11:14:07 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:14:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: <1423509246993.65267@unm.edu> Hello Robert, I would like to add to what you said, if I may, that in the ZPD, the teacher learns in equal measure as the student in your description (as well as others watching and listening). It may not be the same level of learning as for the student, it may be learning about learning, for example, in a lived-through experience of teaching, That is, if teaching is considered not as the sage on the stage, but the guide on the side. :) The ZPD is not a one-way dialectic, but a multiple-directional dialectics, depending upon who's present, who's speaking, and who's listening? As in the way listservs function, for example, it's own zoped extending over time and space into many people's lives. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 13:18:02 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 21:18:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unreading Althusser In-Reply-To: References: <1423370453709.61491@unm.edu> <1423372098756.58531@unm.edu> <1423381315096.47618@unm.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3EDDA@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1423416072393.11576@unm.edu> <1423447694660.46938@unm.edu> <1423449886075.26824@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423516682318.88248@unm.edu> David! Thank you for all this and those! For contextualizing Sahlins, as well as other contexts pertaining to the history of the list! I always learn so much from your posts! They are gifts! :) For me, the notion is: what is the genealogy ?to use the word as Foucault does, though not in the sense that there is flesh in a body of knowledge, with DNA and cells? of the words as containers to store and reveal the thought of the person who thought it, in order to hand down the meaning as faithfully as can be to posterity without the meaning (and the words as containers for that meaning) becoming kitschified? Is it possible? (How do we read the stars? vs. How do we read maps of stars?) A biological specimen is transient and when we look at it in a jar of formaldehyde we are looking at it through a filter of containment and preservation, it's not the real thing, even though it was once real, is it? It is not alive, but it is displayed as-if alive. I hope I've not put my foot in it by bringing up the Confucius Institute. I only looked Sahlins up out of curiosity and noticed his recent book, which caught my eye, largely because of the word "malware." I did not mean to raise a specter of political controversy concerning Sahlins and Confucius Institute as specific concerns of mine, or even specifically, but to consider the question of shunning as a possible method of control versus a method of faithfulness, and whether that can actually work? Is shunning just a Maginot Line? Is not speaking, actually, a dismissal, an erasure? Is that productive? is it effective? Or is it half-baked? :) What is intriguing is that Sahlins appropriates a term from software development, "malware," as if to conjure up dark web hackers (the anonymous kind who infiltrate computer networks and break the law by copying in a labyrinthian world where a copy is just as good as the original, as in software pirates) and creating spaces for illegal activity (as in Silk Road and the Dread Pirate Roberts, whoever that person might be). In other words, the name "academic malware" creates a strange narrative, constructing a picture of academic illness from a digital virus. It makes me feel queasy. Malware suggests poisoning. To poison is the deliverance of a substance that will destroy the host not at the point of entry, but past the point of entry. It is a kind of demonization, isn't it? juxtaposing these two words "academic" and "malware". Is the malware performed academically? or is the malware performed upon the academic? Is this title an avoidance? of seeing it for what it is, a collision of cultures, framing this as an opportunity for understanding to work it all out in a zoped, so to speak? It has an appearance of an invitation to a play for dominance between equals (a call to arms to raise antibodies), rather than a play for discovery between equals (a convocation of minds). I'd prefer the latter to the former. The essential ingredient to achieve the latter over the former has to do with building trust rather than creating fear. Is it about giving, rather than taking, as one's first step? What does shunning mean in this paradigm? I think about hau, a concept I was introduced to recently, which is a kind of belief in a force binding the receiver and giver, but also about reciprocity, that the act of giving is self-interested, but at the same time has a concern for others, which to me suggests there is a morality to it, a value that is binding in itself. One doesn't get out of the transaction of hau, is what I sense. I wouldn't call that malware?but something more like love and care, maybe perezhivanie??? Kind regards, Annalisa From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Feb 9 13:24:32 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 16:24:32 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: <1423509246993.65267@unm.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <1423509246993.65267@unm.edu> Message-ID: Right Annalisa, The reason for my last posting is because there is an error about "student centeredness" in both Freire and Vygotsky's work. In the case of Freire, some wrongly believe that there is no structured learning or that in the case of Vygotsky, just putting the chairs in a circle does not mean that a ZPD is created. RL On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello Robert, > > I would like to add to what you said, if I may, that in the ZPD, the > teacher learns in equal measure as the student in your description (as well > as others watching and listening). It may not be the same level of learning > as for the student, it may be learning about learning, for example, in a > lived-through experience of teaching, That is, if teaching is considered > not as the sage on the stage, but the guide on the side. :) > > The ZPD is not a one-way dialectic, but a multiple-directional dialectics, > depending upon who's present, who's speaking, and who's listening? > > As in the way listservs function, for example, it's own zoped extending > over time and space into many people's lives. :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk Mon Feb 9 13:25:32 2015 From: julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk (Julian Williams) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 21:25:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: <318AFFBC-A65B-4827-ACA3-D1703431B904@manchester.ac.uk> I agree with most of this, and it seems a pretty fair account of V.s view, with which I'm of course sympathetic. Yet it does seem to treat knowledge as neutral, as something to be acquired but in merely in need of an efficient obuchenie, whereas I think a critical approach requires something else, pace Bourdieu and Marx, a view of schooling as reproduction of class society, and as such as being in need of a more radical critical analysis. In such an account, a teacher may be not just more or less effective in development of learning, but aligns with different class interests in what they do, and helps in the conscientisation of learners ... Or maybe obscures such 'consciousness raising'. Freire thought that literacy was not just learning to read and write, but learning to interpret and resist authority, and what Bourdieu called the cultural arbitrary. I may be off on my own thing here... If so, sorry to be distracting. Julian On 9 Feb 2015, at 18:55, "Robert Lake" wrote: > It is interesting to note that the Cherokee viewed white people as half > baked in the great spirit's creation oven :-). > > And...while we are on the topic, it is important to distinguish between > "student centered" and "learner centered" activity in a ZPD. > > > Vygotsky is very clear on the role of the mentor/teacher?s role to lead in > development even though the goal is the co-construction of knowledge. In > this context it becomes necessary to distinguish between a ?student > centered? approaches with a ?learner centered? one. In both approaches, > what the student is able to internalize is more important than a ?top down? > method which is characterized by a teacher centered delivery of > instruction. But in a learner centered environment, the teacher or mentor > is able to maintain certain parameters within the target subject matter in > an environment of interaction and dialogue that enhances student voice and > personal agency. > > *Zone of Proximal Development-*The developmental space between a learner?s > actual and potential levels of, thinking, problem solving, acting and being. > > There are many similarities between Vygotsky?s view of learner > centeredness and problem solving/problem posing education and that of the > Brazilian educator, Paulo Freire (1921-1997) and although they obviously > never knew each other they were both influenced similarly by Hegel and > Marx. Joe Kincheloe had this to say about Freire?s approach to teaching. > The parallels to Vygotsky?s views are striking. > > By promoting problem posing and student research, teachers do not simply > relinquish their authority in the classroom. Over the last couple of > decades several teachers and students have misunderstood the subtlety of > the nature of teacher authority in a critical pedagogy. Freire in the last > years of his life was very concerned with this issue and its > misinterpretation by those operating in his name. Teachers, he told me, > cannot deny their position of authority in such a classroom. It is the > teacher, not the students, who evaluates student work, who is responsible > for the health, safety, and learning of students. To deny the role of > authority the teacher occupies is insincere at best, dishonest at worst. > Critical teachers, therefore, must admit that they are in a position of > authority and then demonstrate that authority [sic] in their actions in > support of students. One of the actions involves the ability to conduct > research/produce knowledge. The authority of the critical teacher is > *dialectical*; as teachers relinquish the authority of truth providers, > they assume the mature authority of facilitators of student inquiry and > problem posing. In relation to such teacher authority, students gain their > freedom--they gain the ability to become self-directed human beings capable > of producing their own knowledge. (Kincheloe, 2008, p.17) > > This notion of the role of the teacher in the ZPD brings us to Vygotsky?s > use of the Russian word for education, *obuchenie *which is translated as > teaching but ?is interchangeable for the activity of the teachers and > students. (Wink & Putney, 2003, p.xxiii). This means that Vygotsky viewed > teaching as learning and therefore confirms what we said about the role of > teachers in the progressive classroom. In the mind of Vygotsky, the zone of > proximal development is environment out of which the teacher and the > student co-construct and create knowledge together rather than just moving > in the ?top down? approach that Freire calls the ?banking model? of > education wherein the teacher makes ?deposits? of knowledge into the empty > ?account? of the student and draws the information back out on test days in > the exact form and manner in which it was deposited. > > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I share your reservations, Michael. >> >> I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist >> thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century >> educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that >> recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of >> childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the >> article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the >> hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his >> powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. >> The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of >> which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, >> prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political >> radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over the >> lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets at >> the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea that >> adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism >> would suggest). >> >> It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair >> the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an >> indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems wrongheaded >> to me. >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael >> Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached >> >> I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It >> fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education >> initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and >> educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. >> I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not >> that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues >> such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's >> pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist >> ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey >> struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to >> merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect >> arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing >> recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the >> school and the teachers and not Dewey. >> >> Just my take. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) >> Cc: cori jakubiak >> Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached >> >> The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace >> William Paterson University of New Jersey >> >> Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of >> progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the >> teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, >> the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical >> study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from >> the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White >> child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation >> was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at >> the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators >> uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a >> major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently >> ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental >> endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically >> less developed than their White counterparts. >> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >> by an official order form. >> >> > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Feb 9 13:35:51 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 16:35:51 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: <318AFFBC-A65B-4827-ACA3-D1703431B904@manchester.ac.uk> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <318AFFBC-A65B-4827-ACA3-D1703431B904@manchester.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi Julian, I absolutely agree with you. After all it is *critical* pedagogy we are talking about which requires personal understanding and the personal is always political. RL On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Julian Williams < julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > I agree with most of this, and it seems a pretty fair account of V.s > view, with which I'm of course sympathetic. > > Yet it does seem to treat knowledge as neutral, as something to be > acquired but in merely in need of an efficient obuchenie, whereas I think a > critical approach requires something else, pace Bourdieu and Marx, a view > of schooling as reproduction of class society, and as such as being in need > of a more radical critical analysis. > > In such an account, a teacher may be not just more or less effective in > development of learning, but aligns with different class interests in what > they do, and helps in the conscientisation of learners ... Or maybe > obscures such 'consciousness raising'. > > Freire thought that literacy was not just learning to read and write, but > learning to interpret and resist authority, and what Bourdieu called the > cultural arbitrary. > > I may be off on my own thing here... If so, sorry to be distracting. > > Julian > > On 9 Feb 2015, at 18:55, "Robert Lake" > wrote: > > > It is interesting to note that the Cherokee viewed white people as half > > baked in the great spirit's creation oven :-). > > > > And...while we are on the topic, it is important to distinguish between > > "student centered" and "learner centered" activity in a ZPD. > > > > > > Vygotsky is very clear on the role of the mentor/teacher?s role to lead > in > > development even though the goal is the co-construction of knowledge. In > > this context it becomes necessary to distinguish between a ?student > > centered? approaches with a ?learner centered? one. In both approaches, > > what the student is able to internalize is more important than a ?top > down? > > method which is characterized by a teacher centered delivery of > > instruction. But in a learner centered environment, the teacher or mentor > > is able to maintain certain parameters within the target subject matter > in > > an environment of interaction and dialogue that enhances student voice > and > > personal agency. > > > > *Zone of Proximal Development-*The developmental space between a > learner?s > > actual and potential levels of, thinking, problem solving, acting and > being. > > > > There are many similarities between Vygotsky?s view of learner > > centeredness and problem solving/problem posing education and that of the > > Brazilian educator, Paulo Freire (1921-1997) and although they obviously > > never knew each other they were both influenced similarly by Hegel and > > Marx. Joe Kincheloe had this to say about Freire?s approach to teaching. > > The parallels to Vygotsky?s views are striking. > > > > By promoting problem posing and student research, teachers do not simply > > relinquish their authority in the classroom. Over the last couple of > > decades several teachers and students have misunderstood the subtlety of > > the nature of teacher authority in a critical pedagogy. Freire in the > last > > years of his life was very concerned with this issue and its > > misinterpretation by those operating in his name. Teachers, he told me, > > cannot deny their position of authority in such a classroom. It is the > > teacher, not the students, who evaluates student work, who is responsible > > for the health, safety, and learning of students. To deny the role of > > authority the teacher occupies is insincere at best, dishonest at worst. > > Critical teachers, therefore, must admit that they are in a position of > > authority and then demonstrate that authority [sic] in their actions in > > support of students. One of the actions involves the ability to conduct > > research/produce knowledge. The authority of the critical teacher is > > *dialectical*; as teachers relinquish the authority of truth providers, > > they assume the mature authority of facilitators of student inquiry and > > problem posing. In relation to such teacher authority, students gain > their > > freedom--they gain the ability to become self-directed human beings > capable > > of producing their own knowledge. (Kincheloe, 2008, p.17) > > > > This notion of the role of the teacher in the ZPD brings us to Vygotsky?s > > use of the Russian word for education, *obuchenie *which is translated as > > teaching but ?is interchangeable for the activity of the teachers and > > students. (Wink & Putney, 2003, p.xxiii). This means that Vygotsky viewed > > teaching as learning and therefore confirms what we said about the role > of > > teachers in the progressive classroom. In the mind of Vygotsky, the zone > of > > proximal development is environment out of which the teacher and the > > student co-construct and create knowledge together rather than just > moving > > in the ?top down? approach that Freire calls the ?banking model? of > > education wherein the teacher makes ?deposits? of knowledge into the > empty > > ?account? of the student and draws the information back out on test days > in > > the exact form and manner in which it was deposited. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> I share your reservations, Michael. > >> > >> I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > >> thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > >> educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > >> recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > >> childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > >> article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > >> hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his > >> powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social > niceties. > >> The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of > >> which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, > >> prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political > >> radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over > the > >> lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets > at > >> the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea > that > >> adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism > >> would suggest). > >> > >> It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair > >> the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an > >> indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems > wrongheaded > >> to me. > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > >> Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > >> > >> I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. > It > >> fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > >> initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, > and > >> educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type > schools. > >> I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not > >> that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to > issues > >> such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's > >> pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist > >> ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey > >> struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to > >> merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see > reflect > >> arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing > >> recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from > the > >> school and the teachers and not Dewey. > >> > >> Just my take. > >> > >> Michael > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > >> on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > >> Cc: cori jakubiak > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > >> > >> The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace > >> William Paterson University of New Jersey > >> > >> Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > >> progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > >> teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, > perhaps, > >> the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical > >> study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly > from > >> the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White > >> child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of > recapitulation > >> was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology > at > >> the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators > >> uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a > >> major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was > inherently > >> ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the > developmental > >> endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically > >> less developed than their White counterparts. > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> > >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > >> by an official order form. > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk Mon Feb 9 14:04:21 2015 From: julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk (Julian Williams) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 22:04:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <318AFFBC-A65B-4827-ACA3-D1703431B904@manchester.ac.uk> Message-ID: RL again hi, Ok then: if this is not too off-beat, let me develop this point. Being critical it seems to me (in my sense, then) involves a certain contradiction within the notions of 'teacher authority' ( whether it is arbitrary or in some sense 'useful'?) and in fact many of the concepts that seem to be taken for granted in the classic Vygotskyan account - thus: Personal learning: does such learning intrinsically involve something developmental, or something 'good' because it is personal? Which way is 'development': did the Nazi youth league offer a ZPD for 1920s youth .. ? What is the 'target subject matter', and is it ever necessarily, intrinsically developmental, in any sense? When is an 'environment' developmental (e.g. treblinka: since we are im memorial now), was it developmental, or has it become so?; What does it mean for the learner to be 'centred', or 'free', and how can we know when this centre or freedom is in fact just the freedom to exploit and oppress others? All these questions seem to be largely obscured in the classic interpretation of Vygotksy's ZPD, see what I mean? My working hypothesis then: Vygotsky/AT plus a class analysis (e.g. Bourdieu) is a minimal requirement to deal with 'development' as process and 'telos'. Julian On 09/02/2015 21:35, "Robert Lake" wrote: >Hi Julian, >I absolutely agree with you. After all it is *critical* pedagogy we are >talking about which requires personal understanding and the >personal is always political. >RL > >On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Julian Williams < >julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > >> >> I agree with most of this, and it seems a pretty fair account of V.s >> view, with which I'm of course sympathetic. >> >> Yet it does seem to treat knowledge as neutral, as something to be >> acquired but in merely in need of an efficient obuchenie, whereas I >>think a >> critical approach requires something else, pace Bourdieu and Marx, a >>view >> of schooling as reproduction of class society, and as such as being in >>need >> of a more radical critical analysis. >> >> In such an account, a teacher may be not just more or less effective in >> development of learning, but aligns with different class interests in >>what >> they do, and helps in the conscientisation of learners ... Or maybe >> obscures such 'consciousness raising'. >> >> Freire thought that literacy was not just learning to read and write, >>but >> learning to interpret and resist authority, and what Bourdieu called the >> cultural arbitrary. >> >> I may be off on my own thing here... If so, sorry to be distracting. >> >> Julian >> >> On 9 Feb 2015, at 18:55, "Robert Lake" >> wrote: >> >> > It is interesting to note that the Cherokee viewed white people as >>half >> > baked in the great spirit's creation oven :-). >> > >> > And...while we are on the topic, it is important to distinguish >>between >> > "student centered" and "learner centered" activity in a ZPD. >> > >> > >> > Vygotsky is very clear on the role of the mentor/teacher?s role to >>lead >> in >> > development even though the goal is the co-construction of knowledge. >>In >> > this context it becomes necessary to distinguish between a ?student >> > centered? approaches with a ?learner centered? one. In both >>approaches, >> > what the student is able to internalize is more important than a ?top >> down? >> > method which is characterized by a teacher centered delivery of >> > instruction. But in a learner centered environment, the teacher or >>mentor >> > is able to maintain certain parameters within the target subject >>matter >> in >> > an environment of interaction and dialogue that enhances student voice >> and >> > personal agency. >> > >> > *Zone of Proximal Development-*The developmental space between a >> learner?s >> > actual and potential levels of, thinking, problem solving, acting and >> being. >> > >> > There are many similarities between Vygotsky?s view of learner >> > centeredness and problem solving/problem posing education and that of >>the >> > Brazilian educator, Paulo Freire (1921-1997) and although they >>obviously >> > never knew each other they were both influenced similarly by Hegel and >> > Marx. Joe Kincheloe had this to say about Freire?s approach to >>teaching. >> > The parallels to Vygotsky?s views are striking. >> > >> > By promoting problem posing and student research, teachers do not >>simply >> > relinquish their authority in the classroom. Over the last couple of >> > decades several teachers and students have misunderstood the subtlety >>of >> > the nature of teacher authority in a critical pedagogy. Freire in the >> last >> > years of his life was very concerned with this issue and its >> > misinterpretation by those operating in his name. Teachers, he told >>me, >> > cannot deny their position of authority in such a classroom. It is the >> > teacher, not the students, who evaluates student work, who is >>responsible >> > for the health, safety, and learning of students. To deny the role of >> > authority the teacher occupies is insincere at best, dishonest at >>worst. >> > Critical teachers, therefore, must admit that they are in a position >>of >> > authority and then demonstrate that authority [sic] in their actions >>in >> > support of students. One of the actions involves the ability to >>conduct >> > research/produce knowledge. The authority of the critical teacher is >> > *dialectical*; as teachers relinquish the authority of truth >>providers, >> > they assume the mature authority of facilitators of student inquiry >>and >> > problem posing. In relation to such teacher authority, students gain >> their >> > freedom--they gain the ability to become self-directed human beings >> capable >> > of producing their own knowledge. (Kincheloe, 2008, p.17) >> > >> > This notion of the role of the teacher in the ZPD brings us to >>Vygotsky?s >> > use of the Russian word for education, *obuchenie *which is >>translated as >> > teaching but ?is interchangeable for the activity of the teachers and >> > students. (Wink & Putney, 2003, p.xxiii). This means that Vygotsky >>viewed >> > teaching as learning and therefore confirms what we said about the >>role >> of >> > teachers in the progressive classroom. In the mind of Vygotsky, the >>zone >> of >> > proximal development is environment out of which the teacher and the >> > student co-construct and create knowledge together rather than just >> moving >> > in the ?top down? approach that Freire calls the ?banking model? of >> > education wherein the teacher makes ?deposits? of knowledge into the >> empty >> > ?account? of the student and draws the information back out on test >>days >> in >> > the exact form and manner in which it was deposited. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >> > >> >> I share your reservations, Michael. >> >> >> >> I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist >> >> thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century >> >> educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that >> >> recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of >> >> childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the >> >> article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the >> >> hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with >>his >> >> powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social >> niceties. >> >> The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage >>out of >> >> which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an >>exalted, >> >> prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political >> >> radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule >>over >> the >> >> lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic >>poets >> at >> >> the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea >> that >> >> adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as >>recapitulationism >> >> would suggest). >> >> >> >> It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously >>repair >> >> the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an >> >> indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems >> wrongheaded >> >> to me. >> >> >> >> Rod >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael >> >> Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached >> >> >> >> I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. >> It >> >> fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education >> >> initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, >> and >> >> educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type >> schools. >> >> I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really >>not >> >> that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to >> issues >> >> such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think >>it's >> >> pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his >>recapitulationist >> >> ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and >>Dewey >> >> struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire >>to >> >> merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see >> reflect >> >> arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing >> >> recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections >>from >> the >> >> school and the teachers and not Dewey. >> >> >> >> Just my take. >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> ________________________________________ >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>[xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> >> on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] >> >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) >> >> Cc: cori jakubiak >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached >> >> >> >> The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas >>Fallace >> >> William Paterson University of New Jersey >> >> >> >> Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of >> >> progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the >> >> teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, >> perhaps, >> >> the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this >>historical >> >> study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged >>directly >> from >> >> the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the >>White >> >> child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of >> recapitulation >> >> was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and >>psychology >> at >> >> the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators >> >> uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as >>a >> >> major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was >> inherently >> >> ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the >> developmental >> >> endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as >>ontologically >> >> less developed than their White counterparts. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >> for >> >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely >>on >> it. >> >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are >>not >> >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University >> accepts >> >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan >> emails >> >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept >> responsibility >> >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless >> accompanied >> >> by an official order form. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor >> > Social Foundations of Education >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> > Georgia Southern University >> > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> > P. O. Box 8144 >> > Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> > Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> > Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> > > >-- > >*Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor >Social Foundations of Education >Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >Georgia Southern University >Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >P. O. Box 8144 >Phone: (912) 478-0355 >Fax: (912) 478-5382 >Statesboro, GA 30460 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 14:59:53 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 15:59:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Care to offer your opinion on jazz? And then on Adorno's opinion on jazz? Just curious since I know he is often taken to task for his position on jazz (and I assume that this criticism is oversimplified at least a little but I don't quite know how). As for the rest, I wonder if Vygotsky has a Kantian notion of aesthetics or if you see significant differences there? And your post gave me a good smile (a real enough emotion) with all of its visions of the good life... -greg On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:05 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > In Leoncavallo's opera "Pagliacci", there is a love triangle in a group of > travelling Commedia del arte performers. They stage an performance for a > group of villagers (in which the theme of a deceived husband is > burlesqued). In the middle of the performance, the deceived husband murders > his wife, and the opera ends with the famous line "La commedia e finita!" > > Leoncavallo tried hard to convince his audience that it was a true story > based on a murder that happened in his own family, but he was sued for > plagiarism by another author, and the suit was only dropped when still > another author sued the plaintiff.. The evidence, actually, is that > Leoncavallo wrote the opera out of jealousy of his colleague Mascagni's > "Cavalleria Rusticana", which has a very similar triangle, an opera which > is often paired with "Pagliacci" to this day. > > The idea of putting a play within a play and giving the real audience a > frisson of wonder about the reality of the stage death is certainly part of > art; it goes all the way back to Hamlet and even before (Shakespeare stole > the idea of a play within a play with real murders from Kyd's "The Spanish > Tragedy", which was showing while Hamlet was being composed.) But very few > people would admit that snuff pornography--that is, pornography in which > the actors are actually murdered--is a legitimate art form. So how to draw > the line, and why? And does the line tell us anything about the difference > between Kitsch and other forms of art. > > Vygotsky says that art is a social technique of emotion--real emotion > brought about by unreal events. He also sees art as a process of > indviduation, not socialization. Where Bukharin and his "Proletkult" > movement saw art as being the "infection" of the masses by the emotions of > a lone artist, Vygotsky sees exactly the opposite--the individuation of the > emotion of an artwork by the viewer. > > Snuff pornography doesn't and cannot do this: it's not a real emotion > brought about by unreal events but rather an unreal emotion (in relation to > what we would really feel if we witnessed a murder) brought about by real > events. But Hamlet can and does this: in fact, sensationalism is > deliberately deferred throughout the four hours of tergiversation by the > title character, and the sensationalist terror evoked by Kyd is brilliantly > transformed into intra-mental horror. > > Kitsch cannot and doesn't do this: the emotions that Jeff Koons evokes are > not real emotions at all, since his art is all about himself and his > celebrity (and the same thing goes for Lady Gaga and a great deal of the > "knowing, winking" kitsch that passes for art these days). it is not art, > but rather a parody of art we are being given. As Adorno says, every form > of art has to have some vision of the good life, even if it is only etched > as a negative. But if the "good life" were simply is simply the commercial > success of the artist which we are ordered to vicariously enjoy, then what > we are given is a real situation with unreal emotions, as in snuff > pornography, and not an unreal situation with real ones, as in verismo. > > Verismo--in Pagliacci, Cavalleria Rusticana--uses an unreal play within a > play about an unreal play to create real emotions: "Actors have feelings > too," as Tonio says. There is some dispute about whether Tonio or > the murderer "Pagliacci" speaks the line "La commedia e finita". My own > view is that Tonio should say it, because the show must go on. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 16:27:58 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 16:27:58 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <318AFFBC-A65B-4827-ACA3-D1703431B904@manchester.ac.uk> Message-ID: This topic of student centered, or learner centered approaches overlaps with Morten Nissen's article when he discusses the place of "standards" in educational settings. On page 104 he suggests, "The point in standardization is to govern by descriptions of what works best as *judged* by effect studies. As simple as it sounds, that tends to veil political issues about what is the problem, for whom, in which situations, etc. In other words, each time a standard is defined, a particular intentional structure is *taken for granted and the question of its relevance is excluded* from awareness, in the interest of pragmatic simplicity." Do we need to engage in dialogue which "unveils" the taken for granted political issues about "standards" and explicitly question the approach of "pragmatic simplicity"? My question more specifically is addressing "public school" standards, since this is the place where most students are developing through standards based judgements [governed by descriptions] How especially to encourage this dialogue with the "best" schools where they have successfully risen to the top of the "standards" and so are achieving recognition. Is the only approach to create "alternative" third spaces [hybrid spaces] and try to have them be recognized as "models" and then try to "describe" the standards achieved in these alternate settings?? On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Julian Williams < julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > RL again hi, > > Ok then: if this is not too off-beat, let me develop this point. > > Being critical it seems to me (in my sense, then) involves a certain > contradiction within the notions of 'teacher authority' ( whether it is > arbitrary or in some sense 'useful'?) and in fact many of the concepts > that seem to be taken for granted in the classic Vygotskyan account - thus: > > Personal learning: does such learning intrinsically involve something > developmental, or something 'good' because it is personal? > > Which way is 'development': did the Nazi youth league offer a ZPD for > 1920s youth .. ? > > What is the 'target subject matter', and is it ever necessarily, > intrinsically developmental, in any sense? > > When is an 'environment' developmental (e.g. treblinka: since we are im > memorial now), was it developmental, or has it become so?; > > What does it mean for the learner to be 'centred', or 'free', and how can > we know when this centre or freedom is in fact just the freedom to exploit > and oppress others? > > All these questions seem to be largely obscured in the classic > interpretation of Vygotksy's ZPD, see what I mean? > > My working hypothesis then: Vygotsky/AT plus a class analysis (e.g. > Bourdieu) is a minimal requirement to deal with 'development' as process > and 'telos'. > > Julian > > On 09/02/2015 21:35, "Robert Lake" wrote: > > >Hi Julian, > >I absolutely agree with you. After all it is *critical* pedagogy we are > >talking about which requires personal understanding and the > >personal is always political. > >RL > > > >On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Julian Williams < > >julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > > > >> > >> I agree with most of this, and it seems a pretty fair account of V.s > >> view, with which I'm of course sympathetic. > >> > >> Yet it does seem to treat knowledge as neutral, as something to be > >> acquired but in merely in need of an efficient obuchenie, whereas I > >>think a > >> critical approach requires something else, pace Bourdieu and Marx, a > >>view > >> of schooling as reproduction of class society, and as such as being in > >>need > >> of a more radical critical analysis. > >> > >> In such an account, a teacher may be not just more or less effective in > >> development of learning, but aligns with different class interests in > >>what > >> they do, and helps in the conscientisation of learners ... Or maybe > >> obscures such 'consciousness raising'. > >> > >> Freire thought that literacy was not just learning to read and write, > >>but > >> learning to interpret and resist authority, and what Bourdieu called the > >> cultural arbitrary. > >> > >> I may be off on my own thing here... If so, sorry to be distracting. > >> > >> Julian > >> > >> On 9 Feb 2015, at 18:55, "Robert Lake" > >> wrote: > >> > >> > It is interesting to note that the Cherokee viewed white people as > >>half > >> > baked in the great spirit's creation oven :-). > >> > > >> > And...while we are on the topic, it is important to distinguish > >>between > >> > "student centered" and "learner centered" activity in a ZPD. > >> > > >> > > >> > Vygotsky is very clear on the role of the mentor/teacher?s role to > >>lead > >> in > >> > development even though the goal is the co-construction of knowledge. > >>In > >> > this context it becomes necessary to distinguish between a ?student > >> > centered? approaches with a ?learner centered? one. In both > >>approaches, > >> > what the student is able to internalize is more important than a ?top > >> down? > >> > method which is characterized by a teacher centered delivery of > >> > instruction. But in a learner centered environment, the teacher or > >>mentor > >> > is able to maintain certain parameters within the target subject > >>matter > >> in > >> > an environment of interaction and dialogue that enhances student voice > >> and > >> > personal agency. > >> > > >> > *Zone of Proximal Development-*The developmental space between a > >> learner?s > >> > actual and potential levels of, thinking, problem solving, acting and > >> being. > >> > > >> > There are many similarities between Vygotsky?s view of learner > >> > centeredness and problem solving/problem posing education and that of > >>the > >> > Brazilian educator, Paulo Freire (1921-1997) and although they > >>obviously > >> > never knew each other they were both influenced similarly by Hegel and > >> > Marx. Joe Kincheloe had this to say about Freire?s approach to > >>teaching. > >> > The parallels to Vygotsky?s views are striking. > >> > > >> > By promoting problem posing and student research, teachers do not > >>simply > >> > relinquish their authority in the classroom. Over the last couple of > >> > decades several teachers and students have misunderstood the subtlety > >>of > >> > the nature of teacher authority in a critical pedagogy. Freire in the > >> last > >> > years of his life was very concerned with this issue and its > >> > misinterpretation by those operating in his name. Teachers, he told > >>me, > >> > cannot deny their position of authority in such a classroom. It is the > >> > teacher, not the students, who evaluates student work, who is > >>responsible > >> > for the health, safety, and learning of students. To deny the role of > >> > authority the teacher occupies is insincere at best, dishonest at > >>worst. > >> > Critical teachers, therefore, must admit that they are in a position > >>of > >> > authority and then demonstrate that authority [sic] in their actions > >>in > >> > support of students. One of the actions involves the ability to > >>conduct > >> > research/produce knowledge. The authority of the critical teacher is > >> > *dialectical*; as teachers relinquish the authority of truth > >>providers, > >> > they assume the mature authority of facilitators of student inquiry > >>and > >> > problem posing. In relation to such teacher authority, students gain > >> their > >> > freedom--they gain the ability to become self-directed human beings > >> capable > >> > of producing their own knowledge. (Kincheloe, 2008, p.17) > >> > > >> > This notion of the role of the teacher in the ZPD brings us to > >>Vygotsky?s > >> > use of the Russian word for education, *obuchenie *which is > >>translated as > >> > teaching but ?is interchangeable for the activity of the teachers and > >> > students. (Wink & Putney, 2003, p.xxiii). This means that Vygotsky > >>viewed > >> > teaching as learning and therefore confirms what we said about the > >>role > >> of > >> > teachers in the progressive classroom. In the mind of Vygotsky, the > >>zone > >> of > >> > proximal development is environment out of which the teacher and the > >> > student co-construct and create knowledge together rather than just > >> moving > >> > in the ?top down? approach that Freire calls the ?banking model? of > >> > education wherein the teacher makes ?deposits? of knowledge into the > >> empty > >> > ?account? of the student and draws the information back out on test > >>days > >> in > >> > the exact form and manner in which it was deposited. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Rod Parker-Rees < > >> > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > > >> >> I share your reservations, Michael. > >> >> > >> >> I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > >> >> thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > >> >> educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > >> >> recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > >> >> childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > >> >> article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > >> >> hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with > >>his > >> >> powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social > >> niceties. > >> >> The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage > >>out of > >> >> which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an > >>exalted, > >> >> prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political > >> >> radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule > >>over > >> the > >> >> lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic > >>poets > >> at > >> >> the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea > >> that > >> >> adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as > >>recapitulationism > >> >> would suggest). > >> >> > >> >> It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously > >>repair > >> >> the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an > >> >> indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems > >> wrongheaded > >> >> to me. > >> >> > >> >> Rod > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > >> >> Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > >> >> > >> >> I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. > >> It > >> >> fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > >> >> initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, > >> and > >> >> educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type > >> schools. > >> >> I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really > >>not > >> >> that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to > >> issues > >> >> such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think > >>it's > >> >> pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his > >>recapitulationist > >> >> ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and > >>Dewey > >> >> struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire > >>to > >> >> merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see > >> reflect > >> >> arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing > >> >> recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections > >>from > >> the > >> >> school and the teachers and not Dewey. > >> >> > >> >> Just my take. > >> >> > >> >> Michael > >> >> ________________________________________ > >> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>[xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > >> >> on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > >> >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > >> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > >> >> Cc: cori jakubiak > >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > >> >> > >> >> The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas > >>Fallace > >> >> William Paterson University of New Jersey > >> >> > >> >> Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > >> >> progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > >> >> teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, > >> perhaps, > >> >> the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this > >>historical > >> >> study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged > >>directly > >> from > >> >> the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the > >>White > >> >> child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of > >> recapitulation > >> >> was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and > >>psychology > >> at > >> >> the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators > >> >> uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as > >>a > >> >> major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was > >> inherently > >> >> ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the > >> developmental > >> >> endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as > >>ontologically > >> >> less developed than their White counterparts. > >> >> > >> >> ________________________________ > >> >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > >> >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > >> >> > >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > >> for > >> >> the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > >> >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > >> >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely > >>on > >> it. > >> >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > >> >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are > >>not > >> >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > >> accepts > >> >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > >> emails > >> >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > >> responsibility > >> >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > >> >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > >> accompanied > >> >> by an official order form. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > >> > Social Foundations of Education > >> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> > Georgia Southern University > >> > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> > P. O. Box 8144 > >> > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> > Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > > > > > >-- > > > >*Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > >Social Foundations of Education > >Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >Georgia Southern University > >Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >P. O. Box 8144 > >Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 16:58:12 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 00:58:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <318AFFBC-A65B-4827-ACA3-D1703431B904@manchester.ac.uk> , Message-ID: <1423529892243.47220@unm.edu> Hi Julian, I appreciate the sentiment behind your questions. For the record, these are my interpretations, which are not authoritative, nor total(itarian). No matter what an environment is, it is going to have some kind of developmental learning potential in it. It may not be the kind of learning that is warranted by what is considered "the higher good." Furthermore, the content and contexts taught and taught in can create more suffering than nurturance, in reference to what is required for a liberated person. I am looking to the ideal of the liberated person as our orientation or reference point, because I believe it is a universal desire for all humans to want to be free, and if we all want to be free, then we should all want to be free together. There will likely be people who believe that only some people can be or deserve to be free. That kind of worldview/philosophy is going to influence the content and contexts created in environments for learning. Oddly, I can't imagine anyone wanting to self-select oneself to be undeserving of liberation if it is believed only some people deserve freedom. Thus, if a learning environment creates suffering (rather than prevent or reduce suffering), all possible learning, while personal ?since there is nothing more personal when feeling pain and being subject to suffering? is going to be antithetical to liberation, no matter what the intentions. The learning will not be "good learning" because it is conducted in an atmosphere of fear. In an environment that is focused upon liberation for all, teachers and students are empowered to think for themselves in the present moment. The key to understanding Vygotsky in my opinion is understanding this "present moment" of learning, as the instant of change, which is developmental. For me, this is referenced with the word and meaning of perezhivanie ?lived-through experience? which allows the student (and teacher) to learn through meaning-making. Meaning-making happens on many different levels in many different ways, but who decides what is meaningful? It would be the person learning, not the environment, nor the particular pedagogy. However, if what is taught is meaningless, it is likely to have either no effect or a negative effect in relation to the liberated student and liberated teacher. Meaning-making is not necessarily joyful, it can be evoked by negative experiences, but these can also stunt authentic learning, because a person who doesn't feel completely safe, isn't going to feel motivated to be curious, inquisitive, or take risks, all attitudes and emotional states that are required for a person to take possession of one's own learning. True learning involves joy in some way or another. I have noticed that the emotional component to Vygotsky's model frequently gets lost in the shuffle, as if ZPD is solely cognitive and behavioral. It can look that way if the emotional or affective aspects are removed or not considered essential (thank you Descartes!). In such cases, it would appear to be a reproductive system for an unchanging culture, but I wouldn't call that a Vygotskian model for learning. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 17:13:06 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 01:13:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1423530786208.50672@unm.edu> Excellent, David! The quality of art can never be decided definitively. It is to be determined by many factors of context, in which the art work emerges. There is no stock rule that determines what is art and what is kitsch, because... it depends. And yet! we seem to know kitsch when we see it. Some adore kitsch, some make it one's artistic sensibility as Jeff Koons has done, who doesn't even do the work to make the work, but hires others to do it for him. What I was responding to in the Nissen article is what I saw as a confusion of therapeutic activity with something else that may not actually be therapeutic activity, as seen from the outside. The act of making something "therapeutic" into a spectacle bothered me, even if it did have therapeutic intentions and effects on the subject, but what of the audience? Would Vygotsky have agreed, for example, to display the three children of the alcoholic mother, as described in The Problem with the Environment lecture, in front of the auditorium and question them in front of everyone and even give away their names, or publish all such details in a newspaper? The intention to make us (the viewers of the video hosted at the U-Turn website) feel better about the therapeutic quality of making Birren, a drug addict, feel like Madonna in an MTV video (my interpretation as a shorthand, to make my point) and posting this on a website, then labeling it a "prototype" of all possible therapies does not seem to based upon Vygotskian theory as I understand it, but rather a simulacra in shape and form of Vygotskian theory for the purpose to put it on display. Nissen himself states that he was moved to tears while watching the video, so clearly the video is there to evoke emotion. It almost doesn't matter if they are real emotions or not, based upon real events or not, it's just intended to make us feel a certain way, but not to look at the man behind the green curtain. It is feeling without thinking. As I read the Nissen paper, all this reminded me of what is kitsch and so I wandered to clear cobwebs from my memory to the Greenberg essay which tries to answer the question: What is the quality of art? (which is always up for debate and always will be) While rereading the essay, I saw that he pointed out that what makes kitsch kitsch is the way it accommodates us, satisfying our need for relaxation, is how I think Greenberg says it. Greenberg makes the distinction that avant-garde art, as it used to be known as, the work of artists who actually struggling with materials and themes of their time to produce something new in the present moment, in the way academics try to produce something new in their research in the present moment, this work, when viewed by an audience, makes us work too. That in an ideal sense, this is what art is supposed to do for us, to help us to see the world anew, to discover something new about ourselves. To challenge us. I agree with you that Vygotsky's sense of the function of art in society is one of individuation, as you so aptly put it. So we could I think juxtapose that nicely to what I said about how "high art" is meant to make us work, to battle with our individual sensibilities with the individual art work and thus make sense of it, individually. Also, knowing that this is where Vygotsky started his career, his analysis of Hamlet, is a wonderful tie in and mighty brilliant as well for you to point out! I don't think there is anything kitsch about Vygotsky, he's the original. This is why it really makes it hard for me to see Vygotsky as an advocate for reproducing social structures through the art work, because that is the goal of kitsch. Interestingly, we see that kitsch is the favored work of dictators BECAUSE it reproduces the social structures that are desired (by dictators). This is not to say kitsch doesn't exist in countries where there are no dictators, but that there seems to be a natural attraction to it by dictators and I believe that there is a reason: it provides a function of replication, it is propaganda. So we have on the one hand a gifted researcher attempting to show individuation and creativity and how that happens with mediation in the sociocultural environment one finds oneself, in the presence of the work of art, and on the other a reproduction, a copy, a simulacra, of his work attempting to show "prototypes" as the original research. Duchamp revealed how contemptible a practice this was with his "ready-mades", specifically his signed urinals. To show them as art was to invert the entire practice of showing the ready-mades as artwork (where they are not) by showing the ready-mades as artwork (where they are). Turning the work of art inward on itself, as commentary, which was to make us think, not to produce a predictable emotion "in a relaxed way." And yet! there are these urinals today in art museums, likely worth much money, not because they are urinals made or porcelain, but because they are urinals with a particular provenance, and... there is a video of recovering drug addict, which was slickly produced and labeled as a "preferred self-image" as selected by said recovering drug addict and that this is posted on a website, apparently to show the effect of the therapeutic activity of the drug addict upon herself in a community of (professional) others working with her. What I'm responding to is the posting this video on a website as a "proof of concept" for a state-sponsored treatment and calling that Vygotskian, or based upon sociocultural theory. Somehow the best I could call it or the best way I could describe what I was witnessing, was to call it kitsch. There is something nostalgic about it, but is there anything nostalgic about sociocultural theory? I hope not. So for me it had to do with understanding what is Vygotskian and what is represented as Vygotskian, but may not be Vygotskian at all. Plays within plays and how they circle outward into the world mirroring ourselves, what you called verisimo, is a cool format because it deals with the present moment. But should therapies within therapies circle outward into the world as if mirroring ourselves? There is the sense of surveillance in therapies within therapies that isn't there with plays within plays. I vote yes for plays, but no for therapies, because for therapies this seems to raise ethical issues, not aesthetic ones. Kind regards, Annalisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 17:47:04 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:47:04 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg: You are too generous; I'm afraid my last post wasn't very well written. But I think one of the great advantages of xmca is that it allows people to be inarticulate and then allows other people like you to step in and get them to straighten up their act. So what the devil does this babbling fool really mean when he burbles about what snuff pornography doesn't and cannot do, and what kitsch doesn't and cannot do, and what verismo does and can do? And does jazz do it or not? That's the question. To make a short answer long, I think that another great advantage of xmca is that the conversations are often "complexive". We can see very good examples of this in Annalisa's writing (e.g. her "gut responses" to terms like "malware", which are not really generalizations or abstractions but something like associations based on wordings). So let me take as a starting point Rob Lake's proposition that "the personal is political". It seems to me there are two ways to interpret this, that both, like any art form, have a vision of "the good life" centrally involved, and that the two ways do correspond, respectively, to kitsch and to a (distorted, even betrayed) form of verismo. The first way of interpreting "The personal is political" is the way it was originally meant in the 1960s: the oppression which we feel as inherent in personal relationships (e.g. domestic violence) does not have a personal answer, at least not on a societal level. That is, the oppression which feels personal to a woman can only have a political solution, viz. the organization of women as women, or as part of the working class, or perhaps as part of some more amorphous body, e.g. "the people". It seems to me that this is essentially a Bukharinist view--that is, an emotion is individually felt, and it has to be socialized by being generalized. Art, in this sense, a kind of social contagion: a virus which is spread from the artist to the audience. The second way of interpreting "The personal is political", however, is the way it was re-interpreted by bourgeois feminists (among others) starting in the 1970s (the "Me" decade, as Christopher Lasch put it), and expanding throughout the reactionary Reagan-Bush years (the "Greed is Good" decades) and culminating in our own extreme personalist politics: the oppression which we see as being social (e.g. pay inequality) does not have a political answer, at least not on a societal level. That is, the oppression which women undergo in the workplace has no political redress at all, because of the strength of the reaction to the (fairly mild-mannered) upheavals of the sixties: we can only engineer individual "escapes" from oppression (e.g. the "Supermom" phenomena which does, in individual cases, appear to flaunt pay inequality). It seems to me that this really is the Vygotskyan view of art, but in a distorted form (not, in Andy's sense, applied, but rather more in the sense of betrayed or even turned upside down)--that is, the sense of injustice is socially felt, but it has to be individualized. Art, like personality formation more generally, is essentially individuating, a process of turning a social emotion into a real, personal one. It's not a good social programme, but it's a fine aesthetic one. In the first case, we have a real emotion, that is, grounded in personal experience, which is then generalized and abstracted. In the second case, we have an unreal emotion, that is, one which is grounded in abstraction and generalization, which is then personalized and individuated. It seems to me that the first is kitsch, and the second verismo: the first involves using the real experience of the artist as a starting point and trying to make it into a social contagion; the second involves taking the esthetic understanding of the artist as a starting point and trying to make it real for individuals of the audience. Like you, I spent at least some of my formative years in Chicago, so I love jazz. But part of that love is certainly personal experience: I worked the graveyard shift at Electromotive Division of General Motors, and when I got off work, sometimes at two in the morning, I would haunt blues and jazz clubs with my mates Sugar Blue and Cecile Savage (who are still playing in the Chicago area, more than thirty years later). There is no question in my mind but that both tendencies are there in jazz, as in any art form: in jazz the personal is societal in both senses, in the sense that the artist's individual emotion can be generalized and also in the sense that the "feeling" of jazz is individuated in the audience. But as a young, highly unmusical, white kid trying to come to terms with the generalized emotions of my (mostly black) workmates, I was always more interested in the second sense. I know that Adorno didn't dig jazz. First of all, he approached jazz through popular music, not through real people the way that I did. Secondly, he was one of a class of grown up white kids who thought, as he put it, that the bourgeoisie teaches us to be austere in life and voluptuous only in art, but we'd all be better off doing just the opposite. But that doesn't make a lot of sense when you don't really have the wherewithal to be voluptuous in anything but art. But in the third place, it was his loss, as he probably recognized better than anyone; every genuine human art form that an individual just doesn't dig merely shows us how imperfect we all are as individuals. Isn't that another way of saying individuation? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 10 February 2015 at 07:59, Greg Thompson wrote: > David, > Care to offer your opinion on jazz? > And then on Adorno's opinion on jazz? > Just curious since I know he is often taken to task for his position on > jazz (and I assume that this criticism is oversimplified at least a little > but I don't quite know how). > As for the rest, I wonder if Vygotsky has a Kantian notion of aesthetics or > if you see significant differences there? > And your post gave me a good smile (a real enough emotion) with all of its > visions of the good life... > -greg > > On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:05 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > In Leoncavallo's opera "Pagliacci", there is a love triangle in a group > of > > travelling Commedia del arte performers. They stage an performance for a > > group of villagers (in which the theme of a deceived husband is > > burlesqued). In the middle of the performance, the deceived husband > murders > > his wife, and the opera ends with the famous line "La commedia e finita!" > > > > Leoncavallo tried hard to convince his audience that it was a true story > > based on a murder that happened in his own family, but he was sued for > > plagiarism by another author, and the suit was only dropped when still > > another author sued the plaintiff.. The evidence, actually, is that > > Leoncavallo wrote the opera out of jealousy of his colleague Mascagni's > > "Cavalleria Rusticana", which has a very similar triangle, an opera which > > is often paired with "Pagliacci" to this day. > > > > The idea of putting a play within a play and giving the real audience a > > frisson of wonder about the reality of the stage death is certainly part > of > > art; it goes all the way back to Hamlet and even before (Shakespeare > stole > > the idea of a play within a play with real murders from Kyd's "The > Spanish > > Tragedy", which was showing while Hamlet was being composed.) But very > few > > people would admit that snuff pornography--that is, pornography in which > > the actors are actually murdered--is a legitimate art form. So how to > draw > > the line, and why? And does the line tell us anything about the > difference > > between Kitsch and other forms of art. > > > > Vygotsky says that art is a social technique of emotion--real emotion > > brought about by unreal events. He also sees art as a process of > > indviduation, not socialization. Where Bukharin and his "Proletkult" > > movement saw art as being the "infection" of the masses by the emotions > of > > a lone artist, Vygotsky sees exactly the opposite--the individuation of > the > > emotion of an artwork by the viewer. > > > > Snuff pornography doesn't and cannot do this: it's not a real emotion > > brought about by unreal events but rather an unreal emotion (in relation > to > > what we would really feel if we witnessed a murder) brought about by real > > events. But Hamlet can and does this: in fact, sensationalism is > > deliberately deferred throughout the four hours of tergiversation by the > > title character, and the sensationalist terror evoked by Kyd is > brilliantly > > transformed into intra-mental horror. > > > > Kitsch cannot and doesn't do this: the emotions that Jeff Koons evokes > are > > not real emotions at all, since his art is all about himself and his > > celebrity (and the same thing goes for Lady Gaga and a great deal of the > > "knowing, winking" kitsch that passes for art these days). it is not art, > > but rather a parody of art we are being given. As Adorno says, every form > > of art has to have some vision of the good life, even if it is only > etched > > as a negative. But if the "good life" were simply is simply the > commercial > > success of the artist which we are ordered to vicariously enjoy, then > what > > we are given is a real situation with unreal emotions, as in snuff > > pornography, and not an unreal situation with real ones, as in verismo. > > > > Verismo--in Pagliacci, Cavalleria Rusticana--uses an unreal play within a > > play about an unreal play to create real emotions: "Actors have feelings > > too," as Tonio says. There is some dispute about whether Tonio or > > the murderer "Pagliacci" speaks the line "La commedia e finita". My own > > view is that Tonio should say it, because the show must go on. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 17:49:35 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 01:49:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty Message-ID: I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes "liberal relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and authority in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of culture as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the collective memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative absence of culture? Huw From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Mon Feb 9 18:01:11 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 21:01:11 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty Message-ID: Huw, If max weber is correct, in terms of the protestant ethic giving rise to the spirit of capitalism and the ever-increasing rationalization of western society, "it make sense to describe a dogmatic society, or a[n] institution run by administrators, as a [socioreligious] culture!" Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Huw Lloyd Date: 02/09/2015 8:49 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes "liberal relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and authority in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of culture as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the collective memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative absence of culture? Huw From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 18:20:13 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:20:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: <1423530786208.50672@unm.edu> References: <1423530786208.50672@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, So on this thread you question therapies, in favor of dramatic art. Are all therapies kitsch? On the other thread, Larry questions ?Standards?. Are all standards kitsch? Some standards? Put another way, what therapies, what standards satisfy the quality of verismo? Could this question fall within the domain of the ZPD? (I am thinking of the ZPD as Seth Chaiklin understands it, it?s complex.) I am interested in learning and development not just in the classroom, but in all contexts, including in therapy and in the theater. Henry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ZPD.doc Type: application/msword Size: 104448 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150209/8085e339/attachment.doc -------------- next part -------------- > On Feb 9, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Excellent, David! > > The quality of art can never be decided definitively. It is to be determined by many factors of context, in which the art work emerges. There is no stock rule that determines what is art and what is kitsch, because... it depends. And yet! we seem to know kitsch when we see it. Some adore kitsch, some make it one's artistic sensibility as Jeff Koons has done, who doesn't even do the work to make the work, but hires others to do it for him. > > What I was responding to in the Nissen article is what I saw as a confusion of therapeutic activity with something else that may not actually be therapeutic activity, as seen from the outside. The act of making something "therapeutic" into a spectacle bothered me, even if it did have therapeutic intentions and effects on the subject, but what of the audience? > > Would Vygotsky have agreed, for example, to display the three children of the alcoholic mother, as described in The Problem with the Environment lecture, in front of the auditorium and question them in front of everyone and even give away their names, or publish all such details in a newspaper? > > The intention to make us (the viewers of the video hosted at the U-Turn website) feel better about the therapeutic quality of making Birren, a drug addict, feel like Madonna in an MTV video (my interpretation as a shorthand, to make my point) and posting this on a website, then labeling it a "prototype" of all possible therapies does not seem to based upon Vygotskian theory as I understand it, but rather a simulacra in shape and form of Vygotskian theory for the purpose to put it on display. Nissen himself states that he was moved to tears while watching the video, so clearly the video is there to evoke emotion. It almost doesn't matter if they are real emotions or not, based upon real events or not, it's just intended to make us feel a certain way, but not to look at the man behind the green curtain. It is feeling without thinking. > > As I read the Nissen paper, all this reminded me of what is kitsch and so I wandered to clear cobwebs from my memory to the Greenberg essay which tries to answer the question: What is the quality of art? (which is always up for debate and always will be) While rereading the essay, I saw that he pointed out that what makes kitsch kitsch is the way it accommodates us, satisfying our need for relaxation, is how I think Greenberg says it. > > Greenberg makes the distinction that avant-garde art, as it used to be known as, the work of artists who actually struggling with materials and themes of their time to produce something new in the present moment, in the way academics try to produce something new in their research in the present moment, this work, when viewed by an audience, makes us work too. That in an ideal sense, this is what art is supposed to do for us, to help us to see the world anew, to discover something new about ourselves. To challenge us. > > I agree with you that Vygotsky's sense of the function of art in society is one of individuation, as you so aptly put it. So we could I think juxtapose that nicely to what I said about how "high art" is meant to make us work, to battle with our individual sensibilities with the individual art work and thus make sense of it, individually. Also, knowing that this is where Vygotsky started his career, his analysis of Hamlet, is a wonderful tie in and mighty brilliant as well for you to point out! > > I don't think there is anything kitsch about Vygotsky, he's the original. This is why it really makes it hard for me to see Vygotsky as an advocate for reproducing social structures through the art work, because that is the goal of kitsch. > > Interestingly, we see that kitsch is the favored work of dictators BECAUSE it reproduces the social structures that are desired (by dictators). This is not to say kitsch doesn't exist in countries where there are no dictators, but that there seems to be a natural attraction to it by dictators and I believe that there is a reason: it provides a function of replication, it is propaganda. > > So we have on the one hand a gifted researcher attempting to show individuation and creativity and how that happens with mediation in the sociocultural environment one finds oneself, in the presence of the work of art, and on the other a reproduction, a copy, a simulacra, of his work attempting to show "prototypes" as the original research. > > Duchamp revealed how contemptible a practice this was with his "ready-mades", specifically his signed urinals. To show them as art was to invert the entire practice of showing the ready-mades as artwork (where they are not) by showing the ready-mades as artwork (where they are). Turning the work of art inward on itself, as commentary, which was to make us think, not to produce a predictable emotion "in a relaxed way." > > And yet! there are these urinals today in art museums, likely worth much money, not because they are urinals made or porcelain, but because they are urinals with a particular provenance, and... there is a video of recovering drug addict, which was slickly produced and labeled as a "preferred self-image" as selected by said recovering drug addict and that this is posted on a website, apparently to show the effect of the therapeutic activity of the drug addict upon herself in a community of (professional) others working with her. > > What I'm responding to is the posting this video on a website as a "proof of concept" for a state-sponsored treatment and calling that Vygotskian, or based upon sociocultural theory. Somehow the best I could call it or the best way I could describe what I was witnessing, was to call it kitsch. There is something nostalgic about it, but is there anything nostalgic about sociocultural theory? I hope not. > > So for me it had to do with understanding what is Vygotskian and what is represented as Vygotskian, but may not be Vygotskian at all. > > Plays within plays and how they circle outward into the world mirroring ourselves, what you called verisimo, is a cool format because it deals with the present moment. But should therapies within therapies circle outward into the world as if mirroring ourselves? There is the sense of surveillance in therapies within therapies that isn't there with plays within plays. > > I vote yes for plays, but no for therapies, because for therapies this seems to raise ethical issues, not aesthetic ones. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 18:28:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 02:28:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1423535325005.71912@unm.edu> Hi, The thing about jazz is that there are aspects of it that are reproductive of other forms of music, and the mastery is not only the elaboration upon the original work, but its interpretative aspects as the jazz is played in the present moment. That's why I can see Ardorno not liking jazz and David liking it. Jazz is something to experience personally, not to just listen to, because of the improvisational aspects of its traditions, which includes high-tailing it to a club at 2 am after a long work shift. I did find Robert's use of "the personal is political" quite delightful, by the way, and I think more men should use it when speaking among themselves! I'm all for men's liberation! :) I'd say though, that the reason for inequalities has more to do with a lack of choices, than anything else, which is strange in a land where I can buy 50 different versions of a coffee, or an aisle full of difference in cereal. On second thought, is it really a choice when the cereal is just vitamin-fortified white flour and white sugar just in different brightly colored boxes? And coffee is just coffee with water, sometimes coffee and water and milk, and sometimes coffee and water and sugar, and sometimes coffee and water and milk and sugar. I will not talk about coffee flavorings like hazelnut, almond, mint, etc. It just really is too much choice that makes the original experience of a good cup of coffee quite elusive. So how is it possible to have a lack of choices when there are too many? (This ties into what I was thinking about real art and real kitsch.) The only way for change is when everyone can see clearly what is at stake and what can be gained. If we are convinced there is nothing at stake and nothing can be gained, then nothing will change, as nothingness goes. We'll continue as we have, reproducing what was before in a differently colored box, or a new flavor of sugar. I dont' see art as social contagion, however. I respect that view as a view, but for me art has become so commoditized it's difficult to see its value. So it's hard to see it as a contagion, at least not anymore. I'm still attempting to process this concept of real and unreal emotion, David. It is making me think about the recent Michael Keaton movie, Birdman. (I did adore the tribute to his grandfather by the way). The conversation continues! Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Mon Feb 9 18:31:59 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:31:59 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> Huw, I think there is an irreducible ambiguity and indeterminacy in the concept of "culture". There are some very sound but quite different meanings. For example, Franz Boas was the first person to use the word in the plural: "Cultures" and there can be no doubt that this concept, which designates a potentially self-contained whole of material resources, beliefs and forms of activity, is a useful and legitimate meaning. On the other hand, some of us CHAT people confine the word "culture" to indicate the sum of all artefacts, including ephemeral artefacts like spoken words. But I use the term "constellation" rather than "sum" to indicate that the the culture is not just a pile of objects such as an archaeologist finds when they first dig up a site, but the specific meaningful relations between them all which makes them constitute a whole, that is, a culture in Boas's sense. (Again this distinction between mass noun and count noun!) I think there could be reasonable definitions of culture in terms of activities only and in terms of beliefs only, but I think the concept of "culture" as something which one can have more or less of, is useful only in connection with individuals and their Bildung (i.e., a person's acquisition of and participation in the culture of their community). One could ascribe all sorts of adjectives to a culture, and maybe in an historical sense even the "loss" of culture - so I guess one just has to be open here. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes "liberal > relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and authority > in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for > possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of > interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of culture > as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the collective > memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a > dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > absence of culture? > > Huw > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 18:34:54 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 19:34:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, Can culture be like cancer? Growth, as opposed to development. How much of GNP is cancer? If the growth were benign, just sort of crowds other things out, that?s bad enough. But if it is toxic, cannibalistic? Henry > On Feb 9, 2015, at 6:49 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes "liberal > relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and authority > in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for > possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of > interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of culture > as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the collective > memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a > dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > absence of culture? > > Huw From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 18:58:20 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 02:58:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: References: <1423530786208.50672@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423537100879.12214@unm.edu> Henry! Thanks for your post. It's not that I question therapies. I question the display of therapies inside therapies, as a production of proof and represented as a prototype to legitimize therapy. The spectacle of it. The surveillance of it, as described by the Nissen paper. So to answer your question, therapies are not kitsch, though by my own definition they could be. For ethical reasons, I don't think therapies should ever be kitsch, just like I don't think abdominal surgeries should be kitsch, or legal representations for that matter. Perhaps I have not explained well enough. Kitsch is intended to produce a preordained result regardless of the reality at hand. It has been stripped bare of all improvisational aspects, and has a formulaic determination which starts out seeming authentic but then creates a separation from what is authentic, like eating cotton candy, that seems to take up space, but is just white sugar once it's in your mouth, and provides no nutritional value. There is nothing therapeutic about kitsch! It is death by puns! I actually find theater (in the theater) to be a great therapy because of it's ability to conjure, to cultivate, the always emerging present moment, even if you already know the story. Good art does this too. Kitsch refers to a moment that is never there, because it is always referencing the formula of itself, closed off from the rest of the world; it is solipsistic. Is that a better explanation? Thanks for sending the ZPD paper, I'll take a look at it! Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 9 20:11:17 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 04:11:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> References: , <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> Message-ID: <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Hi Andy, I very much enjoyed your use of the metaphor of constellation for culture, because there is an arrangement of all that constitutes culture, with spaces and distances in between. I also like the idea of thinking about culture as adjectives and adverbs, which you didn't say, but almost did! Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 20:12:07 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 21:12:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and Kitsch In-Reply-To: <1423537100879.12214@unm.edu> References: <1423530786208.50672@unm.edu> <, > <1423537100879.12214@unm.edu> Message-ID: <579174EE-6BF5-4411-92FD-AC5B31AD5D4F@gmail.com> Thank you, Annalisa, I think my focus should have been verismo, not kitsch. When does a therapy have depth? When does a standard, and how it?s taught, meet the criteria of being in the ZPD? I would be interested if you think Chaiklin?s article is useful in answering the question. Henry > On Feb 9, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Henry! > > Thanks for your post. It's not that I question therapies. I question the display of therapies inside therapies, as a production of proof and represented as a prototype to legitimize therapy. The spectacle of it. The surveillance of it, as described by the Nissen paper. > > So to answer your question, therapies are not kitsch, though by my own definition they could be. For ethical reasons, I don't think therapies should ever be kitsch, just like I don't think abdominal surgeries should be kitsch, or legal representations for that matter. > > Perhaps I have not explained well enough. Kitsch is intended to produce a preordained result regardless of the reality at hand. It has been stripped bare of all improvisational aspects, and has a formulaic determination which starts out seeming authentic but then creates a separation from what is authentic, like eating cotton candy, that seems to take up space, but is just white sugar once it's in your mouth, and provides no nutritional value. There is nothing therapeutic about kitsch! It is death by puns! > > I actually find theater (in the theater) to be a great therapy because of it's ability to conjure, to cultivate, the always emerging present moment, even if you already know the story. Good art does this too. Kitsch refers to a moment that is never there, because it is always referencing the formula of itself, closed off from the rest of the world; it is solipsistic. > > Is that a better explanation? > > Thanks for sending the ZPD paper, I'll take a look at it! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Feb 9 22:02:46 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 22:02:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: Andy, The notion of culture [as "bildung"] is a concept of learning that has a history of colonial and Eurocentric prejudices. However when I read Anna Stetsenko's notion of TAS [Transformative Activist Stance] or Kris's "third wave" and testimonio or the concept of "ZPD" is it possible to consider these enactments also participating in cultivating bildung as cultivating a particular "stance" or "position"? Cultivating a particular "approach" or "method"? Another example is "kobito theory" which can be considered a particular way of constellating interactions. Is the fact that the notion of bildung as "cultivation" historically has been Eurocentric in its enactments and used in processes of domination mean the concept of culture as cultivation is bankrupt? Or can this concept of "bildung" be transformed to re-imagine striving to cultivate new forms of collaboration [through "bildung"] In other words can the concept of "bildung" be expanded beyond its Eurocentric prejudices and "constellate" new ways of participating in collaborative projects which are "hybrid" forms that become actualized and then nurtured and cultivated? I recognize a "shadow side" to notions of "bildung" as pre-formed and static and "dead" [not living forms. I recognize there always exists a "gap" between the pre-formed and the emergent form and this gap must be continually negotiated, however, I still question if notions such as Stetsenko's TAS are ethically formed "dispositions" that through cultivation develop as particular ways to "approach" the "gap" in a spirit of openness and attentiveness to next steps. On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Andy, > > I very much enjoyed your use of the metaphor of constellation for culture, > because there is an arrangement of all that constitutes culture, with > spaces and distances in between. > > I also like the idea of thinking about culture as adjectives and adverbs, > which you didn't say, but almost did! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From smago@uga.edu Tue Feb 10 03:31:15 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:31:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: In memoriam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Elizabeth Moje > Dear Division G friends, Many of you may have already learned of the tragic passing of our colleague, Richard Ruiz. Richard served AERA in numerous ways over the years, and most recently as chair and co-chair of the Division G program for the AERA annual meeting. Please join me in expressing Division G?s deep sympathy for Richard?s family; colleagues at the University of Arizona; and his many friends, colleagues, and admirers throughout our field. Richard?s dear friend and colleague, Luis Moll, has prepared the following message of tribute to Richard, which I share with you and ask you to share with others not on our list. 8 February 2015 [cid:image001.jpg@01D0448C.24E0D910] It is with great sadness that I write these words informing the Division G membership of the passing of our colleague Richard Ruiz. Richard was a professor in the Department of Teaching, Learning and Sociocultural Studies (TLS) of the College of Education at the University of Arizona, where we were colleagues for the past 28 years. He had served as Head of the Teaching and Teacher Education Department, and the Language, Reading and Culture Department, both now programs within TLS. Since 2012 to the present Richard had been Head of the Mexican American Studies Department of the College of Social and Behavioral Sciences. Prior to arriving at the University of Arizona, he worked at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. Richard?s main areas of study included language planning and policy development, of which he was widely considered a top scholar in the field, bilingualism and education, and the education of English language learners. Richard was ?a professor?s professor,? a mentor to his junior colleagues, dedicated to his students? well being and development, and overall the most unselfish colleague one could imagine. He was admired and sought after by his colleagues for his administrative wisdom, skills and insights, especially as a leader and problem solver in many social justice struggles in the field in general, and more specifically, in the life of the institutions he inhabited. He served in several AERA activities, including Program Chair of Division G (2011-2013), AERA/ETS/AIR Postdoctoral Fellow Selection Committee (2011-2014), AERA?s Post-Doctoral Fellow Selection Committee (2002-2008), and AERA?s Undergraduate Training Program Selection Committee (2009-2014). He also served as Chair of the Standing Committee on the Role and Status of Minorities in Educational Research and Development and Chair of the Social Justice Action Committee of AERA (2001). Richard also served as Associate Editor of the Anthropology and Education Quarterly (2009-2013) and was on the Executive Committee, National Latino Education Research Agenda (2003-2014). The son of agricultural workers, Richard was born in Phoenix and also lived in California. As a Harvard undergraduate he majored in French literature, and as a Stanford Ph.D. student he majored in anthropology and philosophy of education. He is survived by Marie, his loving wife of 44 years, and his two sons, Zachary and Daniel. He will be deeply missed by his family, friends, and the many students whose lives he touched. We are all better persons from having known Richard. Un abrazo de despedidda, con todo el cari?o del mundo, mi amigo. Luis C. Moll, University of Arizona See also: https://www.coe.arizona.edu/faculty_profile/131 https://studentaffairs.arizona.edu/faculty/ruiz.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4725 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150210/bd7a50a3/attachment.jpg From smago@uga.edu Tue Feb 10 03:40:39 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:40:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: I didn't read it as a matter of fault. As I read the article, in the late 1800s, when colonialism was the rule of the day, its precepts were evident even in movements that would later discard it. That doesn't seem wrongheaded to me, although I would need to be about 130 years old to say for sure. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:12 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I share your reservations, Michael. I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over the lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets at the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea that adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism would suggest). It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems wrongheaded to me. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not Dewey. Just my take. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Cc: cori jakubiak Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From carolmacdon@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 03:48:57 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:48:57 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: I am not sure in this case whether we should view the beginning/origin and/or the outcome. Right now (or over the last three decades) progressive education-learner centredness has permeated vast areas of society. This is the case in South Africa, across all schools. Surely we should take that into account. Carol On 10 February 2015 at 13:40, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I didn't read it as a matter of fault. As I read the article, in the late > 1800s, when colonialism was the rule of the day, its precepts were evident > even in movements that would later discard it. That doesn't seem > wrongheaded to me, although I would need to be about 130 years old to say > for sure. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:12 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I share your reservations, Michael. > > I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his > powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. > The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of > which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, > prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political > radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over the > lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets at > the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea that > adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism > would suggest). > > It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair > the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an > indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems wrongheaded > to me. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It > fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and > educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. > I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not > that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues > such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's > pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist > ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey > struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to > merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect > arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing > recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the > school and the teachers and not Dewey. > > Just my take. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Cc: cori jakubiak > Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > > The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace > William Paterson University of New Jersey > > Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, > the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical > study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from > the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White > child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation > was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at > the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators > uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a > major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently > ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental > endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically > less developed than their White counterparts. > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From smago@uga.edu Tue Feb 10 03:54:04 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 11:54:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: And yet, that is the project of the historian, which the author appears to be. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Carol Macdonald Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 6:49 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I am not sure in this case whether we should view the beginning/origin and/or the outcome. Right now (or over the last three decades) progressive education-learner centredness has permeated vast areas of society. This is the case in South Africa, across all schools. Surely we should take that into account. Carol On 10 February 2015 at 13:40, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I didn't read it as a matter of fault. As I read the article, in the > late 1800s, when colonialism was the rule of the day, its precepts > were evident even in movements that would later discard it. That > doesn't seem wrongheaded to me, although I would need to be about 130 > years old to say for sure. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:12 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I share your reservations, Michael. > > I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his > powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. > The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out > of which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an > exalted, prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of > political radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to > rule over the lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by > romantic poets at the start of the nineteenth century specifically > challenged the idea that adulthood should supplant and displace > childhood (as recapitulationism would suggest). > > It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously > repair the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as > an indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems > wrongheaded to me. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. > It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, > and > educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. > I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really > not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came > to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I > think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his > recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of > remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this > arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were > more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think > was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author > relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not Dewey. > > Just my take. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky > [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Cc: cori jakubiak > Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > > The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas > Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey > > Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, > perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this > historical study, the author argues that childcentered education > emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the > development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. > The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of > anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th > century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the > basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for > child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and > racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of > history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Tue Feb 10 04:07:23 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:07:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A8225@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Hi Peter, I wasn't accusing the article of wrongheadedness, rather the assertion, referred to by Michael, that 'more progressive education initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and educationally) marginalized groups'. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: 10 February 2015 11:41 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I didn't read it as a matter of fault. As I read the article, in the late 1800s, when colonialism was the rule of the day, its precepts were evident even in movements that would later discard it. That doesn't seem wrongheaded to me, although I would need to be about 130 years old to say for sure. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:12 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I share your reservations, Michael. I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out of which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an exalted, prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of political radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to rule over the lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by romantic poets at the start of the nineteenth century specifically challenged the idea that adulthood should supplant and displace childhood (as recapitulationism would suggest). It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously repair the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as an indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems wrongheaded to me. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, and educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not Dewey. Just my take. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Cc: cori jakubiak Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this historical study, the author argues that childcentered education emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Feb 10 04:11:55 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:11:55 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: And as a historical piece it is excellent . Thank you for sharing it Peter. Robert L On Feb 10, 2015 6:55 AM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > And yet, that is the project of the historian, which the author appears to > be. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Carol Macdonald > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 6:49 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I am not sure in this case whether we should view the beginning/origin > and/or the outcome. Right now (or over the last three decades) progressive > education-learner centredness has permeated vast areas of society. This is > the case in South Africa, across all schools. Surely we should take that > into account. > > Carol > > > > On 10 February 2015 at 13:40, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I didn't read it as a matter of fault. As I read the article, in the > > late 1800s, when colonialism was the rule of the day, its precepts > > were evident even in movements that would later discard it. That > > doesn't seem wrongheaded to me, although I would need to be about 130 > > years old to say for sure. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:12 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > > > I share your reservations, Michael. > > > > I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > > thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > > educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > > recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > > childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > > article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > > hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his > > powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. > > The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out > > of which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an > > exalted, prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of > > political radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to > > rule over the lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by > > romantic poets at the start of the nineteenth century specifically > > challenged the idea that adulthood should supplant and displace > > childhood (as recapitulationism would suggest). > > > > It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously > > repair the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as > > an indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems > > wrongheaded to me. > > > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > > Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > > > I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. > > It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > > initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, > > and > > educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type > schools. > > I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really > > not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came > > to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I > > think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his > > recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of > > remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this > > arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were > > more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think > > was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author > > relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not > Dewey. > > > > Just my take. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky > > [smago@uga.edu] > > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > > Cc: cori jakubiak > > Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > > > > The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas > > Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey > > > > Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > > progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > > teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, > > perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this > > historical study, the author argues that childcentered education > > emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the > > development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. > > The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of > > anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th > > century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the > > basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for > > child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and > > racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of > > history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less > developed than their White counterparts. > > > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 04:14:46 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:14:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 February 2015 at 02:01, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Huw, > > If max weber is correct, in terms of the protestant ethic giving rise to > the spirit of capitalism and the ever-increasing rationalization of western > society, "it make sense to describe a > dogmatic society, or a[n] institution run by administrators, as a > [socioreligious] culture!" > > Do you mean the protestant work ethic, Paul? Perhaps you (or Weber) are conflating protestant with WASP? Huw > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Huw Lloyd > Date: 02/09/2015 8:49 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty > > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes "liberal > relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and authority > in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for > possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of > interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of culture > as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the collective > memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a > dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > absence of culture? > > Huw > > From smago@uga.edu Tue Feb 10 04:27:49 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:27:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would also be cautious about covering an entire society with the same blanket (dogmatic society). Surely it's not true of all, mainly those whose dogma is important for them to perpetuate. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 7:15 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty On 10 February 2015 at 02:01, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Huw, > > If max weber is correct, in terms of the protestant ethic giving rise > to the spirit of capitalism and the ever-increasing rationalization of > western society, "it make sense to describe a dogmatic society, or > a[n] institution run by administrators, as a [socioreligious] > culture!" > > Do you mean the protestant work ethic, Paul? Perhaps you (or Weber) are conflating protestant with WASP? Huw > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Huw Lloyd > Date: 02/09/2015 8:49 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty > > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes > "liberal relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility > and authority in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an > open regard for possibilities and encouragement for independent > thinking -- the sort of interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of > culture as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or > the collective memories of a society etc? For example, does it make > sense to describe a dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > absence of culture? > > Huw > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Feb 10 04:48:07 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:48:07 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty Message-ID: There is not a racial take in weber ' s conceptualization. ?Weber is looking at the sociohistorical evolution of how religious (cultural) ideas gave rise to capitalism in the west and not elsewhere. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Huw Lloyd
Date:02/10/2015 7:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty
On 10 February 2015 at 02:01, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Huw, > > If max weber is correct, in terms of the protestant ethic giving rise to > the spirit of capitalism and the ever-increasing rationalization of western > society, "it make sense to describe a > dogmatic society, or a[n] institution run by administrators, as a > [socioreligious] culture!" > > Do you mean the protestant work ethic, Paul? Perhaps you (or Weber) are conflating protestant with WASP? Huw > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Huw Lloyd > Date: 02/09/2015 8:49 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty > > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes "liberal > relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and authority > in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for > possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of > interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of culture > as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the collective > memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a > dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > absence of culture? > > Huw > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 05:05:59 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:05:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 February 2015 at 12:48, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > There is not a racial take in weber ' s conceptualization. Weber is > looking at the sociohistorical evolution of how religious (cultural) ideas > gave rise to capitalism in the west and not elsewhere. > Ok. My take would be that its not the ideas but their reduction to rules which are the problem. Huw > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
Date:02/10/2015 7:14 AM > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on > culture & liberty
>
On 10 February 2015 at 02:01, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> > wrote: > > > Huw, > > > > If max weber is correct, in terms of the protestant ethic giving rise to > > the spirit of capitalism and the ever-increasing rationalization of > western > > society, "it make sense to describe a > > dogmatic society, or a[n] institution run by administrators, as a > > [socioreligious] culture!" > > > > > Do you mean the protestant work ethic, Paul? Perhaps you (or Weber) are > conflating protestant with WASP? > > Huw > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Huw Lloyd > > Date: 02/09/2015 8:49 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty > > > > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes > "liberal > > relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and > authority > > in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for > > possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of > > interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of > culture > > as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the > collective > > memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a > > dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > > absence of culture? > > > > Huw > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 05:29:23 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:29:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: Compelling as the "liberal/ethical relations" notion is, it does seem to imply that there is an ideal form of personality constituting this (essentially psychodynamic) notion of culture (i.e. as the kind of ethical regard required to constitute a zpd). Is that justifiable I wonder? Personally, I tend to think that it is what constitutes civilization (in the sense Clive Bell used, as an attitude or state of mind). Yet it would be rather abhorrent to turn it into dogma. For those wondering what this is about, I'll attempt a brief analogy. To undertake science (to become a scientist) it is generally necessary to accommodate certain world views about objectivity etc. In a similar way, an ideal orientation to teaching/development (i.e. a zpd-like relation) implicates an interpersonal relation of a similar "world view" type magnitude, such as the considerate (agency-empowering) regard one has for one-self and others. Instead of thinking of this as some sort of skilful aspect of (or adjunct to) culture, it appears to be something much more central and, indeed, more culturally important than the particular technological (or mnemonic) form a society takes. It is more about relations of power and community (or its absence) than about artifacts etc. To the degree that people have power, they have the power to adopt egalitarian forms of conduct (though they may, presumably, lose that power in doing so). Power may be obtained through technical, mnemonic and linguistic forms, yet the relation to this power, the way it is wielded, seems to be influenced by cultural knowledge (or values) of a different order to that of artifacts etc. The etymological senses of caring and cultivating certainly seem to support this view. (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=culture). In this sense, the ZPD and similar relations are not imparting culture, they are doing it. Huw On 10 February 2015 at 06:02, Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > The notion of culture [as "bildung"] is a concept of learning that has a > history of colonial and Eurocentric prejudices. > However when I read Anna Stetsenko's notion of TAS [Transformative Activist > Stance] or Kris's "third wave" and testimonio or the concept of "ZPD" is it > possible to consider these enactments also participating in cultivating > bildung as cultivating a particular "stance" or "position"? Cultivating a > particular "approach" or "method"? Another example is "kobito theory" > which can be considered a particular way of constellating interactions. > > Is the fact that the notion of bildung as "cultivation" historically > has been Eurocentric in its enactments and used in processes of domination > mean the concept of culture as cultivation is bankrupt? Or can this concept > of "bildung" be transformed to re-imagine striving to cultivate new forms > of collaboration [through "bildung"] > > In other words can the concept of "bildung" be expanded beyond its > Eurocentric prejudices and "constellate" new ways of participating in > collaborative projects which are "hybrid" forms that become actualized and > then nurtured and cultivated? > > I recognize a "shadow side" to notions of "bildung" as pre-formed and > static and "dead" [not living forms. I recognize there always exists a > "gap" between the pre-formed and the emergent form and this gap must be > continually negotiated, however, I still question if notions such as > Stetsenko's TAS are ethically formed "dispositions" that through > cultivation develop as particular ways to "approach" the "gap" in a spirit > of openness and attentiveness to next steps. > > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi Andy, > > > > I very much enjoyed your use of the metaphor of constellation for > culture, > > because there is an arrangement of all that constitutes culture, with > > spaces and distances in between. > > > > I also like the idea of thinking about culture as adjectives and adverbs, > > which you didn't say, but almost did! > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Feb 10 05:33:18 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:33:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F194@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311022A7EB8@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F526@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> I'm not even sure how good it is as history. Maria Montessorri and as a matter of fact almost everybody he mentions other than Dewey had little or nothing to do with the progressive movement in the United States. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 6:54 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached And yet, that is the project of the historian, which the author appears to be. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Carol Macdonald Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 6:49 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached I am not sure in this case whether we should view the beginning/origin and/or the outcome. Right now (or over the last three decades) progressive education-learner centredness has permeated vast areas of society. This is the case in South Africa, across all schools. Surely we should take that into account. Carol On 10 February 2015 at 13:40, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I didn't read it as a matter of fault. As I read the article, in the > late 1800s, when colonialism was the rule of the day, its precepts > were evident even in movements that would later discard it. That > doesn't seem wrongheaded to me, although I would need to be about 130 > years old to say for sure. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Parker-Rees > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 1:12 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I share your reservations, Michael. > > I'm sure it is possible to trace elements of racist recapitulationist > thinking in the work of nineteenth and early twentieth century > educationalists but I don't think it is accurate to suggest that > recapitulationism was in any way at the heart of the romantic view of > childhood which fuelled arguments for child-centred pedagogy. As the > article points out, Rousseau put the 'noble savage' above the > hyper-civilised white European male of the eighteenth century with his > powdered wig, elaborate finery and obsessive concern for social niceties. > The cultural shift from thinking of childhood as a 'savage' stage out > of which children should be educated as quickly as possible to an > exalted, prelapsarian state of innocence coincided with a growth of > political radicalism which challenged the right of those with power to > rule over the lives of others. The celebration of the 'inner child' by > romantic poets at the start of the nineteenth century specifically > challenged the idea that adulthood should supplant and displace > childhood (as recapitulationism would suggest). > > It may be true that 'progressive' education does not miraculously > repair the manifold injustice of social structures but to take this as > an indication that the fault lies with progressive education seems > wrongheaded to me. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > Sent: 09 February 2015 17:19 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: good article attached > > I don't know Peter. This article strikes me as being very political. > It fits very much into the narrative that more progressive education > initiatives work against the interests of (economically, politically, > and > educationally) marginalized groups. That's why we need KIPP type schools. > I have just never brought into this. I think the article is really > not that fair to Dewey. Dewey had his warts, including when it came > to issues such as multiculturalism and he was called out on it. But I > think it's pretty clear that he did not like Hall at all or his > recapitulationist ideas - this may be too simplistic but I sort of > remember Hall and Dewey struggling for the soul of Franz Boas in this > arena. Dewey's desire to merge psychological factors - which were > more behavior related (see reflect arc article) and the social I think > was the opposite of embracing recapitualationism. And the author > relies mostly on recollections from the school and the teachers and not Dewey. > > Just my take. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky > [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 11:54 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) > Cc: cori jakubiak > Subject: [Xmca-l] good article attached > > The Savage Origins of Child-Centered Pedagogy, 1871-1913 Thomas > Fallace William Paterson University of New Jersey > > Abstract: Child-centered pedagogy is at the ideological core of > progressive education. The simple idea that the child rather than the > teacher or textbook should be the major focus of the classroom is, > perhaps, the single most enduring educational idea of the era. In this > historical study, the author argues that childcentered education > emerged directly from the theory of recapitulation, the idea that the > development of the White child retraced the history of the human race. > The theory of recapitulation was pervasive in the fields of > anthropology, sociology, and psychology at the turn of the 20th > century, and so early progressive educators uncritically adopted the > basic tenets of the theory, which served as a major rationale for > child-centered instruction. The theory was inherently ethnocentric and > racist because it pointed to the West as the developmental endpoint of > history, thereby depicting people of color as ontologically less developed than their White counterparts. > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Feb 10 06:14:59 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 09:14:59 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty Message-ID: Yes...that us weber ' s take...the ideas /rules become equated with the nature of reality as such. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Huw Lloyd
Date:02/10/2015 8:05 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty
On 10 February 2015 at 12:48, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > There is not a racial take in weber ' s conceptualization. Weber is > looking at the sociohistorical evolution of how religious (cultural) ideas > gave rise to capitalism in the west and not elsewhere. > Ok. My take would be that its not the ideas but their reduction to rules which are the problem. Huw > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
Date:02/10/2015 7:14 AM > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on > culture & liberty
>
On 10 February 2015 at 02:01, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> > wrote: > > > Huw, > > > > If max weber is correct, in terms of the protestant ethic giving rise to > > the spirit of capitalism and the ever-increasing rationalization of > western > > society, "it make sense to describe a > > dogmatic society, or a[n] institution run by administrators, as a > > [socioreligious] culture!" > > > > > Do you mean the protestant work ethic, Paul? Perhaps you (or Weber) are > conflating protestant with WASP? > > Huw > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Huw Lloyd > > Date: 02/09/2015 8:49 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Thoughts on culture & liberty > > > > I'm not sure if this is related to Paul's inquiry. > > > > I have been considering some of the fundamentals and prerequisites for > > developmental education and related issues. In his articles, Vladimir > > Zinchenko refers to culture as that which fosters (and stimulates) > > psychological development. It seems to me that Zinchenko includes > "liberal > > relations" within this remit, e.g. to delegate responsibility and > authority > > in equal measure, relations of trust, zpd dynamics, an open regard for > > possibilities and encouragement for independent thinking -- the sort of > > interpersonal regard that may be summed up as a regard for liberty. > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but are these relations not the essence of > culture > > as opposed to, say, the man made parts of the environment or the > collective > > memories of a society etc? For example, does it make sense to describe a > > dogmatic society, or a institution run by administrators, as a culture? > > Might it not, actually, be more correct to describe it by its relative > > absence of culture? > > > > Huw > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 07:43:29 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 07:43:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: Huw, Your insight, "In a similar way, an ideal orientation to teaching/development (i.e. a zpd-like relation) implicates an interpersonal relation of a similar "world view" type magnitude, such as the considerate (agency-empowering) regard one has for one-self and others. Instead of thinking of this as some sort of skilful aspect of (or adjunct to) culture, it appears to be something much more central" and your example from Weber that Protestant ideal orientations to "development" as world view underlies Capatilism [as analogous processes] opens up a place for "ethical notions". The "meta" relation of alternative "world views" and making the case for "care and cultivation" at the foundation [or at the founding moment from a phenomenological world view]. Then notions of "third spaces" and "ZPD" as sharing similar "places/spaces" [as met-phor] is a way of making a case for "caring/cultivating places" from which "emerge" learning "potential. It seems [from this particular ethical worldview perspective] that to make a "case" in order to be/become a certain kind of person is to create/discover/reveal or be implicated within a place of care and concern from which we act. But we can only act from "this" place" within an "interpretive community" that shares this "project" [as a projection of the possible or the "could be" Now what collapses this "third space" is the imposition of pre-ordained rules and standards which create a complimentary space of doer and done to. Is it the imposition of rules/standards that dissolve ethical third spaces [ZPD]?? That is the question your thread invites for consideration in my reading.? On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 5:29 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Compelling as the "liberal/ethical relations" notion is, it does seem to > imply that there is an ideal form of personality constituting this > (essentially psychodynamic) notion of culture (i.e. as the kind of ethical > regard required to constitute a zpd). Is that justifiable I wonder? > Personally, I tend to think that it is what constitutes civilization (in > the sense Clive Bell used, as an attitude or state of mind). Yet it would > be rather abhorrent to turn it into dogma. > > For those wondering what this is about, I'll attempt a brief analogy. To > undertake science (to become a scientist) it is generally necessary to > accommodate certain world views about objectivity etc. In a similar way, > an ideal orientation to teaching/development (i.e. a zpd-like relation) > implicates an interpersonal relation of a similar "world view" type > magnitude, such as the considerate (agency-empowering) regard one has for > one-self and others. Instead of thinking of this as some sort of skilful > aspect of (or adjunct to) culture, it appears to be something much more > central and, indeed, more culturally important than the particular > technological (or mnemonic) form a society takes. It is more about > relations of power and community (or its absence) than about artifacts etc. > > To the degree that people have power, they have the power to adopt > egalitarian forms of conduct (though they may, presumably, lose that power > in doing so). Power may be obtained through technical, mnemonic and > linguistic forms, yet the relation to this power, the way it is wielded, > seems to be influenced by cultural knowledge (or values) of a different > order to that of artifacts etc. > > The etymological senses of caring and cultivating certainly seem to support > this view. (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=culture). In this > sense, the ZPD and similar relations are not imparting culture, they are > doing it. > > Huw > > > > On 10 February 2015 at 06:02, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Andy, > > The notion of culture [as "bildung"] is a concept of learning that has a > > history of colonial and Eurocentric prejudices. > > However when I read Anna Stetsenko's notion of TAS [Transformative > Activist > > Stance] or Kris's "third wave" and testimonio or the concept of "ZPD" is > it > > possible to consider these enactments also participating in cultivating > > bildung as cultivating a particular "stance" or "position"? Cultivating > a > > particular "approach" or "method"? Another example is "kobito theory" > > which can be considered a particular way of constellating interactions. > > > > Is the fact that the notion of bildung as "cultivation" historically > > has been Eurocentric in its enactments and used in processes of > domination > > mean the concept of culture as cultivation is bankrupt? Or can this > concept > > of "bildung" be transformed to re-imagine striving to cultivate new > forms > > of collaboration [through "bildung"] > > > > In other words can the concept of "bildung" be expanded beyond its > > Eurocentric prejudices and "constellate" new ways of participating in > > collaborative projects which are "hybrid" forms that become actualized > and > > then nurtured and cultivated? > > > > I recognize a "shadow side" to notions of "bildung" as pre-formed and > > static and "dead" [not living forms. I recognize there always exists a > > "gap" between the pre-formed and the emergent form and this gap must be > > continually negotiated, however, I still question if notions such as > > Stetsenko's TAS are ethically formed "dispositions" that through > > cultivation develop as particular ways to "approach" the "gap" in a > spirit > > of openness and attentiveness to next steps. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > I very much enjoyed your use of the metaphor of constellation for > > culture, > > > because there is an arrangement of all that constitutes culture, with > > > spaces and distances in between. > > > > > > I also like the idea of thinking about culture as adjectives and > adverbs, > > > which you didn't say, but almost did! > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 10 08:17:56 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 08:17:56 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Nissen on working with youth Message-ID: Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in movement and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted before as part of the discussion. Apologies. mike PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I think. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: morten.jdp.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 628866 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150210/dce780c7/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 09:50:18 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:50:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on that other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across socio-cultural contexts, or as Nissen says: " the question whether and how standards of educational practice can be transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural distances is far from straightforward ? ? and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish experience, I was impelled to reconsider it." I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's issues of "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the "forming of persons". That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological imperialism? I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather approaches a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from one cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples everywhere care very much about "forming persons". No? -greg On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in movement > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted before as > part of the discussion. Apologies. > mike > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I think. > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 10:44:51 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 10:44:51 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming persons". So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also multiple standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological imperialism?? I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that are exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves ethical questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel formations [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using notions such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest they are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" that abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and ask questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we form hybrid cultural forms. Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an instantiation of the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and making "real"] Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? Is my question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to breath and come "to life"?? Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this "place". How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility of bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always situated, never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's ideological imperialism. Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. De-constructing the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid forms neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on that > other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across socio-cultural > contexts, or as Nissen says: > > " the question whether and how standards of educational practice can be > transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural distances is > far from straightforward > ? ? > and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish experience, I was > impelled to reconsider it." > > I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's issues of > "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the "forming of > persons". > > That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological imperialism? > > I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather approaches > a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from one > cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples everywhere > care very much about "forming persons". > > No? > > -greg > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in movement > > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted before as > > part of the discussion. Apologies. > > mike > > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I think. > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 11:23:39 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 19:23:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: > > > Is it the imposition of rules/standards that dissolve ethical third spaces > [ZPD]?? > > That is the question your thread invites for consideration in my reading.? > That is my understanding, Larry. Though I am not familiar with third space. Huw From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 12:14:59 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:14:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: I am posting a fragment that I think may be relevant. It comes from Robert Pippen's article titled "What is the question for which Hegel's Theory of Recognition is the Answer?". The question is the nature of freedom? Pippen states that Hegel is rejecting any causal account of freedom. However Pippen cautions we should not go too far in any "objective" or "social theory" of freedom. Why? Pippen's answer is that Hegel never looses focus on the *relation between *my individual views of what I will or should ethically do [my intentions and reasons] *and* the actual action. Hegel acknowledges a person can have various reflective "attitudes towards" what I should do or about the claims that others have on me that should lead me to do. Hegel grants that I sometimes act accordingly on such views and sometimes I do not act accordingly on such ethical views. But, and this is key, *this relation* is not a causal relation but an *expressive relation*. An action is an expression of subjective will. Hegel gives the example of the relation of the artist to his/her art work. In some "sense" the artist causes the work such as a statue to be made, but what makes the work "his" is that this work expresses "him" and his artistic intentions. AND what makes the the "him" From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 12:26:14 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 12:26:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: I accidently sent and will finish the fragment. AND what makes the him *"really" *him is what we are mainly focussing on discovering. For Hegel that has something to do with reason and thereby with the establishment of mutuality. We discover [on this expressive model] something about his intention *in acting* to express the work, or acting to alter the work *in the acting*. This expressive model posits something not possible "on" the reasons-functioning-as -causes model. Therefore as I understand Pippen, he is reading Hegel as situating freedom within mutual expression. Not standards or rules but places of mutual expression leading to recognition. On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I am posting a fragment that I think may be relevant. It comes from > Robert Pippen's article titled "What is the question for which Hegel's > Theory of Recognition is the Answer?". > > The question is the nature of freedom? > Pippen states that Hegel is rejecting any causal account of freedom. > However Pippen cautions we should not go too far in any "objective" or > "social theory" of freedom. Why? > Pippen's answer is that Hegel never looses focus on the *relation between > *my individual views of what I will or should ethically do [my intentions > and reasons] *and* the actual action. > Hegel acknowledges a person can have various reflective "attitudes > towards" what I should do or about the claims that others have on me > that should lead me to do. Hegel grants that I sometimes act accordingly > on such views and sometimes I do not act accordingly on such ethical views. > > But, and this is key, *this relation* is not a causal relation but an *expressive > relation*. An action is an expression of subjective will. Hegel gives > the example of the relation of the artist to his/her art work. In some > "sense" the artist causes the work such as a statue to be made, but what > makes the work "his" is that this work expresses "him" and his artistic > intentions. > > AND what makes the the "him" > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 14:02:38 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 15:02:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> Message-ID: Larry, Overly simplifying things, we might say that the Hegelian take is that we find our freedom through others. Love it. Seems to articulate with Morton Nissen's paper nicely (esp. the notion of recognition). But also with David's post about aesthetics. -greg On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I accidently sent and will finish the fragment. > > AND what makes the him *"really" *him is what we are mainly focussing on > discovering. For Hegel that has something to do with reason and thereby > with the establishment of mutuality. > > We discover [on this expressive model] something about his intention *in > acting* to express the work, or acting to alter the work *in the acting*. > This expressive model posits something not possible "on" the > reasons-functioning-as -causes model. > > Therefore as I understand Pippen, he is reading Hegel as situating freedom > within mutual expression. Not standards or rules but places of mutual > expression leading to recognition. > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > I am posting a fragment that I think may be relevant. It comes from > > Robert Pippen's article titled "What is the question for which Hegel's > > Theory of Recognition is the Answer?". > > > > The question is the nature of freedom? > > Pippen states that Hegel is rejecting any causal account of freedom. > > However Pippen cautions we should not go too far in any "objective" or > > "social theory" of freedom. Why? > > Pippen's answer is that Hegel never looses focus on the *relation between > > *my individual views of what I will or should ethically do [my intentions > > and reasons] *and* the actual action. > > Hegel acknowledges a person can have various reflective "attitudes > > towards" what I should do or about the claims that others have on me > > that should lead me to do. Hegel grants that I sometimes act accordingly > > on such views and sometimes I do not act accordingly on such ethical > views. > > > > But, and this is key, *this relation* is not a causal relation but an > *expressive > > relation*. An action is an expression of subjective will. Hegel gives > > the example of the relation of the artist to his/her art work. In some > > "sense" the artist causes the work such as a statue to be made, but what > > makes the work "his" is that this work expresses "him" and his artistic > > intentions. > > > > AND what makes the the "him" > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 16:16:20 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:16:20 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: The weird thing, Andy, is that Paulhan never said any such thing. Vygotsky's referring to Paulhan's essay "Qu'est-ce que le sens des mots?" where Paulhan, who is a Christian minister and not to be confused with his well known philosopher father, simply takes the banal view that words have connotations as well as denotations. Paulhan becomes extremely distressed when he tries to explain what the denotation of a phrase like "inexpressible in words" is, and gives up. When he tackles the whole question at book length, he uses completely different categories of analysis. I have always believed, and now I am quite sure, that this section of Thinking and Speech originally referred to Volosinov's distinction between "thema" and "meaning", from "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language". "Thema" is the concrete sense that a word has in a specific situation: it is what "you" means when I use it to refer to Andy Blundent. "Meaning" is all the potential meanings that a word might have, considered abstractly: it is what "you" means in the dictionary, in general, as a potential way of addressing every single or group of humans on earth. All words have both, but some have more of one and others have more of the other (e.g. proper nouns have more Theme and common nouns more meaning; verbs, which are all common verbs in the sense that we don't try to pretend that actions are once-occurent, are more Theme when they are tensed and more Meaning when they are infinitive). Lucien Seve confirms that Vygotsky was a close reader of Volosinov, particularly in the last few years when both were teaching at Herzen Pedagogical Institute in Leningrad (and both were dying of tuberculosis). Vygotsky's references to Volosinov were all edited out of his works. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 27 January 2015 at 14:16, Andy Blunden wrote: > Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, its > meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily answered. > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word > "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others are > referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner aspect of a > word." > The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan apparently > with approval, he says: > > "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense > over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological > analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s > sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the > psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of > the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has > several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of > these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of > speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones." > > So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological facts that > arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." > But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these zones" of > the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." > So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the > psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. > Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, and > precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there are all sorts > of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" but are part of the > sense nonetheless. > > ? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > >> Henry >> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to >> Vygotsky" >> Here is the link to google books >> >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= >> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated and >> includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would recommend >> getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. >> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir puts >> Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close reading of >> Vygotsky. >> >> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence >> "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to >> things >> but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) >> >> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" >> >> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the >> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and >> action. >> >> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that >> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. >> >> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others to >> correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity >> Larry >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Larry, >>> Please help me: >>> 1) What is ?inner form?? >>> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out or a >>> link to it? >>> Thanks for your help. >>> Henry >>> >>> >> >> > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 10 16:26:32 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:26:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry. Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra Mukerji, has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to imagine Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. mike On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg, > I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming > persons". > > So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also multiple > standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological imperialism?? > > I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that are > exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves ethical > questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel formations > [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using notions > such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely > objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest they > are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" that > abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] > > Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and ask > questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. > > The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we form > hybrid cultural forms. > Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible > places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an instantiation of > the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and making > "real"] > > Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? Is my > question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to breath > and come "to life"?? > > Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this "place". > > How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility of > bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a > different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always situated, > never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. > > Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's > ideological imperialism. > Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. De-constructing > the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid forms > neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on that > > other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across socio-cultural > > contexts, or as Nissen says: > > > > " the question whether and how standards of educational practice can be > > transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural distances is > > far from straightforward > > ? ? > > and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish experience, I was > > impelled to reconsider it." > > > > I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's issues > of > > "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the "forming of > > persons". > > > > That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological imperialism? > > > > I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather > approaches > > a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from one > > cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples everywhere > > care very much about "forming persons". > > > > No? > > > > -greg > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in > movement > > > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted before > as > > > part of the discussion. Apologies. > > > mike > > > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I think. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Feb 10 16:29:03 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 00:29:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thoughts on culture & liberty In-Reply-To: References: <54D96D9F.60409@mira.net> <1423541477361.45317@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1423614542949.53390@unm.edu> Hi! Am I missing something here? 1. "AND what makes the him *"really" *him is what we are mainly focussing on discovering." 2. "But also with David's post about aesthetics." My modesty prevents me from saying! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Tue Feb 10 16:49:50 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:49:50 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: <54DAA72E.303@mira.net> That makes sense to me (pardon the pun). "You" is a good way of explaining it. I *must* study "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language"! It makes a lot more sense to me that Vygotsky would be appropriating Voloshinov than Paulhan or Shpet, quite honestly. So, he was "edited out" was he?! https://www.marxists.org/archive/voloshinov/1929/marxism-language.htm Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > The weird thing, Andy, is that Paulhan never said any such thing. > Vygotsky's referring to Paulhan's essay "Qu'est-ce que le sens des > mots?" where Paulhan, who is a Christian minister and not to be > confused with his well known philosopher father, simply takes the > banal view that words have connotations as well as denotations. > Paulhan becomes extremely distressed when he tries to explain what the > denotation of a phrase like "inexpressible in words" is, and gives up. > When he tackles the whole question at book length, he uses completely > different categories of analysis. > > I have always believed, and now I am quite sure, that this section of > Thinking and Speech originally referred to Volosinov's distinction > between "thema" and "meaning", from "Marxism and the Philosophy of > Language". "Thema" is the concrete sense that a word has in a specific > situation: it is what "you" means when I use it to refer to Andy > Blundent. "Meaning" is all the potential meanings that a word might > have, considered abstractly: it is what "you" means in the dictionary, > in general, as a potential way of addressing every single or group of > humans on earth. All words have both, but some have more of one and > others have more of the other (e.g. proper nouns have more Theme and > common nouns more meaning; verbs, which are all common verbs in the > sense that we don't try to pretend that actions are once-occurent, are > more Theme when they are tensed and more Meaning when they are > infinitive). > > Lucien Seve confirms that Vygotsky was a close reader of Volosinov, > particularly in the last few years when both were teaching at Herzen > Pedagogical Institute in Leningrad (and both were dying of > tuberculosis). Vygotsky's references to Volosinov were all edited out > of his works. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 27 January 2015 at 14:16, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, > its meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily > answered. > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the > word "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all > the others are referring to mental or psychological, and then > there's "inner aspect of a word." > The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan > apparently with approval, he says: > > "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense > over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological > analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s > sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the > psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of > the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation > which has > several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of > these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of > speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these > zones." > > So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological > facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." > But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these > zones" of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." > So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the > psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. > Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, > and precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there > are all sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" > but are part of the sense nonetheless. > > ? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > Henry > I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge > Companion to > Vygotsky" > Here is the link to google books > > https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very > complicated and > includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II > would recommend > getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. > Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as > Vladimir puts > Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close > reading of > Vygotsky. > > Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence > "in other words, we are dealing with signs that do not only > refer to things > but also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) > > Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some > meaning" > > There is the external referring to things AND the "internal > form" the > aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, > image, and action. > > As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the > phenomena that > emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. > > This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite > others to > correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity > Larry > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > Larry, > Please help me: > 1) What is ?inner form?? > 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it > sent out or a > link to it? > Thanks for your help. > Henry > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Feb 10 17:23:22 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 01:23:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F781@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi David, It has been a long time since I did some exploration into Jean Paulhan. I had thought he was a very important literary/theater critic in Paris, actually more famous than his father at the time (I didn't know he was a Christian minister - hmmm). But I remember reading that his small magazine was very influential. I may be wrong about this, fog of philosophy and all that. I also remember that the section he wrote on sense and meaning was much more than a throw off. I remember reading a pretty intricate couple of pages. He was a really interesting fellow. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 7:16 PM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word The weird thing, Andy, is that Paulhan never said any such thing. Vygotsky's referring to Paulhan's essay "Qu'est-ce que le sens des mots?" where Paulhan, who is a Christian minister and not to be confused with his well known philosopher father, simply takes the banal view that words have connotations as well as denotations. Paulhan becomes extremely distressed when he tries to explain what the denotation of a phrase like "inexpressible in words" is, and gives up. When he tackles the whole question at book length, he uses completely different categories of analysis. I have always believed, and now I am quite sure, that this section of Thinking and Speech originally referred to Volosinov's distinction between "thema" and "meaning", from "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language". "Thema" is the concrete sense that a word has in a specific situation: it is what "you" means when I use it to refer to Andy Blundent. "Meaning" is all the potential meanings that a word might have, considered abstractly: it is what "you" means in the dictionary, in general, as a potential way of addressing every single or group of humans on earth. All words have both, but some have more of one and others have more of the other (e.g. proper nouns have more Theme and common nouns more meaning; verbs, which are all common verbs in the sense that we don't try to pretend that actions are once-occurent, are more Theme when they are tensed and more Meaning when they are infinitive). Lucien Seve confirms that Vygotsky was a close reader of Volosinov, particularly in the last few years when both were teaching at Herzen Pedagogical Institute in Leningrad (and both were dying of tuberculosis). Vygotsky's references to Volosinov were all edited out of his works. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 27 January 2015 at 14:16, Andy Blunden wrote: > Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, its > meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily answered. > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word > "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others > are referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner > aspect of a word." > The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan > apparently with approval, he says: > > "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense > over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological > analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s > sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the > psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of > the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has > several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of > these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of > speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones." > > So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological facts > that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." > But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these zones" > of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." > So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the > psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. > Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, and > precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there are all > sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" but are part > of the sense nonetheless. > > ? > > Andy > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > >> Henry >> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to >> Vygotsky" >> Here is the link to google books >> >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= >> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated >> and includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would >> recommend getting the book from a library as every chapter is interesting. >> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir >> puts Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close >> reading of Vygotsky. >> >> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence "in other >> words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to things but >> also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) >> >> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" >> >> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the >> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and >> action. >> >> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that >> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. >> >> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others >> to correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity Larry >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Larry, >>> Please help me: >>> 1) What is ?inner form?? >>> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out >>> or a link to it? >>> Thanks for your help. >>> Henry >>> >>> >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 10 21:20:29 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:20:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work. I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality] In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" comparing and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas. It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while Bahktin references "smysl" as "themes". I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" . He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through social experience ... realized through various significations .... Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In *this sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity... Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to create new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of activities they take part in throughout their lives. I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie and smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a zone of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form]. As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating sense and meaning. If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is only one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with the power of becoming within zones. On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > Larry. > > Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we > learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra Mukerji, > has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the > gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to imagine > Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot > what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, > ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. > > mike > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > Greg, > > I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming > > persons". > > > > So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also multiple > > standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological > imperialism?? > > > > I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that are > > exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves ethical > > questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel formations > > [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using notions > > such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely > > objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest they > > are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" that > > abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] > > > > Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and ask > > questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. > > > > The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we form > > hybrid cultural forms. > > Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible > > places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an instantiation > of > > the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and making > > "real"] > > > > Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? Is my > > question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to > breath > > and come "to life"?? > > > > Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this "place". > > > > How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility of > > bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a > > different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always situated, > > never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. > > > > Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's > > ideological imperialism. > > Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. > De-constructing > > the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid forms > > neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on > that > > > other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across > socio-cultural > > > contexts, or as Nissen says: > > > > > > " the question whether and how standards of educational practice can be > > > transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural distances > is > > > far from straightforward > > > ? ? > > > and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish experience, I > was > > > impelled to reconsider it." > > > > > > I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's > issues > > of > > > "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the "forming of > > > persons". > > > > > > That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological imperialism? > > > > > > I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather > > approaches > > > a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from one > > > cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples everywhere > > > care very much about "forming persons". > > > > > > No? > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in > > movement > > > > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted > before > > as > > > > part of the discussion. Apologies. > > > > mike > > > > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I think. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 10 21:45:01 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:45:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here. Concerning: He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part ways here? I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to these texts at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and doing my best to keep up. mike On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work. > > I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the > Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda > Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality] > In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" comparing > and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas. > It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while Bahktin > references "smysl" as "themes". > > I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" . > > He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is > the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. > > A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most > important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through social > experience ... realized through various significations .... > Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to > come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In *this > sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity... > Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings > within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to create > new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of > activities they take part in throughout their lives. > > I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of > imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this > "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie and > smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a zone > of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form]. > As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating sense and > meaning. > > If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is only > one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with > the power of becoming within zones. > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Larry. > > > > Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we > > learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra > Mukerji, > > has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the > > gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to > imagine > > Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot > > what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, > > ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. > > > > mike > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > Greg, > > > I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming > > > persons". > > > > > > So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also > multiple > > > standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological > > imperialism?? > > > > > > I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that > are > > > exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves ethical > > > questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel > formations > > > [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using > notions > > > such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely > > > objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest > they > > > are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" > that > > > abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] > > > > > > Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and ask > > > questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. > > > > > > The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we form > > > hybrid cultural forms. > > > Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible > > > places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an instantiation > > of > > > the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and > making > > > "real"] > > > > > > Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? Is > my > > > question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to > > breath > > > and come "to life"?? > > > > > > Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this > "place". > > > > > > How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility of > > > bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a > > > different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always > situated, > > > never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. > > > > > > Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's > > > ideological imperialism. > > > Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. > > De-constructing > > > the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid forms > > > neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on > > that > > > > other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across > > socio-cultural > > > > contexts, or as Nissen says: > > > > > > > > " the question whether and how standards of educational practice can > be > > > > transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural distances > > is > > > > far from straightforward > > > > ? ? > > > > and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish experience, I > > was > > > > impelled to reconsider it." > > > > > > > > I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's > > issues > > > of > > > > "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the "forming > of > > > > persons". > > > > > > > > That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological imperialism? > > > > > > > > I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather > > > approaches > > > > a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from one > > > > cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples > everywhere > > > > care very much about "forming persons". > > > > > > > > No? > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in > > > movement > > > > > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted > > before > > > as > > > > > part of the discussion. Apologies. > > > > > mike > > > > > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I > think. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > an > > > > object > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Feb 10 21:56:21 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 05:56:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fw: [xmca-l] Committing $75M to Reduce Over-Incarceration in America In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1423634179859.20949@unm.edu> Hi I saw this and thought to forward it! Cheers, Annalisa ________________________________ From: MacArthur Foundation Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 10:29 PM Subject: Committing $75M to Reduce Over-Incarceration in America View as web page > | Forward to a friend > [MacFound_401x85] February 2015 [main story banner] MacArthur today announced an initial five-year, $75 million investment that seeks to reduce over-incarceration by changing the way America thinks about and uses jails. The Safety and Justice Challenge will support cities and counties across the country seeking to create fairer, more effective local justice systems that improve public safety, save taxpayer money, and lead to better social outcomes. [LearnMore_Button] [open-gov] [open-gov] Foundations Partner to Build a Stronger Digital Society Storytelling Superheroes Five foundations will jointly address the challenges and opportunities of the digital age, including committing to help keep the Internet open, secure, accessible, and affordable to all. MacArthur and its NetGain partners - the Ford, Knight, Mozilla, and Open Society Foundations - will together seek to strengthen digital society, guided by a set of shared principles on the role of the Internet and technology in advancing the public interest. You are invited to a MacArthur-hosted discussion and reception at South by Southwest Interactive on March 13 in Austin. Graphic memoirist Alison Bechdel and documentary filmmaker Joshua Oppenheimer, both 2014 MacArthur Fellows, will join Maria Hinojosa, a broadcast journalist who has long practiced multimedia storytelling. Panelists will discuss their unique perspectives and methods for producing an authentic story. [LearnMore_Button] [LearnMore_Button] [Committed to building a more just, verdant, and peaceful world.] ?[MacArthur Foundation] FOLLOW US ON [YouTube-logo-full_color] [http://image.s6.exacttarget.com/lib/fe96127276650d7f77/m/1/verticalSeparator.png] [Twitter_logo_blue] This email was sent by: John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation 140 South Dearborn Street | Chicago | IL | 60603-5285 | UNITED STATES We respect your right to privacy. View our policy. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Feb 11 15:06:17 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 08:06:17 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F781@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F781@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael: You're right--Jean Paulhan was a very interesting fellow. He was editor of the lit crit journal founded by Cocteau and others, which first published Sartre and Camus. He was also a member of the resistance (but the journal wasn't; it was shut down for collaboration with the Nazis). For those who require a little more lively interest, he was apparently the "hero" of the "Story of O", which was the previous generation's version of "Fifty Shades of Grey". All that, AND a Christian minister (partly in rebellion against his father, who was a free-thinker). But Vygotsky's referring to an uninteresting 1929 article by this very interesting chap. Here's what our man actually says: p. 289: "Le sens d'un mot, dans son acceptation la plus large, c'est tout l'ensemble de faits psychologiques que ce mot e/veille dans un esprit, et que la re/action de cet esprit ne rejette pas, mais accueille et organise." (The sense of a word, in its broadest acceptance, is all the psychological facts which the word evokes in a mind which the reaction of the mind does not reject but instead accomodates and organizes.) On p. 293 he contradicts this with a story about an acquaintance of his for whom the name "Scipion" evokes a plate of scrambled eggs, not, according to Paulhan, part of either the sense or the meaning of the name. So we can see that right away Paulhan has some trouble with the distinction between private "sense" and social sense. But this distinction is really the key to the problem, because private sense is to social sense as actual meaning in use is to potential meaning in a language system. On p. 304 poor Paulhan is totally stumped by the expression "beyond words", or "beyond my power to express" or "inexpressible", because these expressions do very clearly evoke a psychological fact which many people share, and therefore, contrary to what the words actually say, they have both sense and meaning. But if they say something OTHER than what they mean...? On p. 305, he argues that the sense and also the meaning of "furious" stems from PAST experiences of fury. Presumably, then, the meaning of "death" stems from our past experiences of death? Moving right along (p. 318-319) , Paulhan decides that lies do not have any meaning. But if they do not evoke a stable, socially shared zone of sense how can they be effective as lies? Interestingly, when Paulhan sits down to write a whole book ("Les deux fonctions de language") he decides that the whole distinction between "sens" and "signifance" is nonsense and insignificant, and he ignores it! As A.A. Leontiev remarked, Paulhan just means the connotation and denotation of words, not the real meaning in use and the potential meaning in the dictionary. So here's the problem. Vygotsky clearly HAS read this article and DOES use it: the stuff on the world having the "sense" of the solar system--all of that stuff is here. But the key distinction that Vygotsky really needs--the distinction which is related to GENERALIZATION and to ABSTRACTION, which will allow him to show how word meanings can develop into true concepts--that's what's missing. And that's what is right there in Volosinov, alongside a social mechanism which will allow us to show how socialization into language is also individuation into free will. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 11 February 2015 at 10:23, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi David, > > It has been a long time since I did some exploration into Jean Paulhan. I > had thought he was a very important literary/theater critic in Paris, > actually more famous than his father at the time (I didn't know he was a > Christian minister - hmmm). But I remember reading that his small magazine > was very influential. I may be wrong about this, fog of philosophy and all > that. I also remember that the section he wrote on sense and meaning was > much more than a throw off. I remember reading a pretty intricate couple > of pages. He was a really interesting fellow. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 7:16 PM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word > > The weird thing, Andy, is that Paulhan never said any such thing. > Vygotsky's referring to Paulhan's essay "Qu'est-ce que le sens des mots?" > where Paulhan, who is a Christian minister and not to be confused with his > well known philosopher father, simply takes the banal view that words have > connotations as well as denotations. Paulhan becomes extremely distressed > when he tries to explain what the denotation of a phrase like > "inexpressible in words" is, and gives up. When he tackles the whole > question at book length, he uses completely different categories of > analysis. > > I have always believed, and now I am quite sure, that this section of > Thinking and Speech originally referred to Volosinov's distinction between > "thema" and "meaning", from "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language". > "Thema" is the concrete sense that a word has in a specific situation: it > is what "you" means when I use it to refer to Andy Blundent. "Meaning" is > all the potential meanings that a word might have, considered abstractly: > it is what "you" means in the dictionary, in general, as a potential way > of addressing every single or group of humans on earth. All words have > both, but some have more of one and others have more of the other (e.g. > proper nouns have more Theme and common nouns more meaning; verbs, which > are all common verbs in the sense that we don't try to pretend that actions > are once-occurent, are more Theme when they are tensed and more Meaning > when they are infinitive). > > Lucien Seve confirms that Vygotsky was a close reader of Volosinov, > particularly in the last few years when both were teaching at Herzen > Pedagogical Institute in Leningrad (and both were dying of tuberculosis). > Vygotsky's references to Volosinov were all edited out of his works. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 27 January 2015 at 14:16, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, its > > meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily answered. > > I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word > > "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others > > are referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner > > aspect of a word." > > The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan > > apparently with approval, he says: > > > > "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense > > over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological > > analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s > > sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the > > psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of > > the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has > > several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of > > these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of > > speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones." > > > > So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological facts > > that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." > > But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these zones" > > of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." > > So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the > > psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. > > Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, and > > precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there are all > > sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" but are part > > of the sense nonetheless. > > > > ? > > > > Andy > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > > >> Henry > >> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to > >> Vygotsky" > >> Here is the link to google books > >> > >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= > >> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false > >> > >> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated > >> and includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would > >> recommend getting the book from a library as every chapter is > interesting. > >> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir > >> puts Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close > >> reading of Vygotsky. > >> > >> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence "in other > >> words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to things but > >> also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) > >> > >> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" > >> > >> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the > >> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and > >> action. > >> > >> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that > >> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. > >> > >> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others > >> to correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity Larry > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Larry, > >>> Please help me: > >>> 1) What is ?inner form?? > >>> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out > >>> or a link to it? > >>> Thanks for your help. > >>> Henry > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Feb 11 15:39:52 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 10:39:52 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F781@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <54DBE848.9070004@mira.net> Fascinating David. One can recognise what Vygotsky has been reading and is alluding to because he gifts the critic these verbatim quotes. However, I do not agree that 'the distinction between private "sense" and social sense. ... is really the key to the problem'. It is true that there is a distinction between a private sense (the primary subject matter of psychology) and a social sense (the primary subject matter of social theory) and to deny such a distinction would be silliness. But I don't think it is the essential difference. The famed "genetic law of development" would tell us that "sense" can be found on the interpersonal plane before it appears on the psychological plane. This is the same difference I have with Leontyev when he frames the actions of individuals in terms of personal or subjective sense versus objective meaning. Both are social. I think you are actually indicating this in your comment: '... because private sense is to social sense as actual meaning in use is to potential meaning in a language system'. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > Michael: > > You're right--Jean Paulhan was a very interesting fellow. He was editor of > the lit crit journal founded by Cocteau and others, which first published > Sartre and Camus. He was also a member of the resistance (but the journal > wasn't; it was shut down for collaboration with the Nazis). For those who > require a little more lively interest, he was apparently the "hero" of the > "Story of O", which was the previous generation's version of "Fifty Shades > of Grey". All that, AND a Christian minister (partly in rebellion against > his father, who was a free-thinker). > > But Vygotsky's referring to an uninteresting 1929 article by this very > interesting chap. Here's what our man actually says: > > p. 289: "Le sens d'un mot, dans son acceptation la plus large, c'est tout > l'ensemble de faits psychologiques que ce mot e/veille dans un esprit, et > que la re/action de cet esprit ne rejette pas, mais accueille et organise." > (The sense of a word, in its broadest acceptance, is all the psychological > facts which the word evokes in a mind which the reaction of the mind does > not reject but instead accomodates and organizes.) > > On p. 293 he contradicts this with a story about an acquaintance of his > for whom the name "Scipion" evokes a plate of scrambled eggs, not, > according to Paulhan, part of either the sense or the meaning of the name. > So we can see that right away Paulhan has some trouble with the distinction > between private "sense" and social sense. But this distinction is really > the key to the problem, because private sense is to social sense as actual > meaning in use is to potential meaning in a language system. > > On p. 304 poor Paulhan is totally stumped by the expression "beyond > words", or "beyond my power to express" or "inexpressible", because these > expressions do very clearly evoke a psychological fact which many people > share, and therefore, contrary to what the words actually say, they have > both sense and meaning. But if they say something OTHER than what they > mean...? > > On p. 305, he argues that the sense and also the meaning of "furious" > stems from PAST experiences of fury. Presumably, then, the meaning of > "death" stems from our past experiences of death? > > Moving right along (p. 318-319) , Paulhan decides that lies do not have > any meaning. But if they do not evoke a stable, socially shared zone of > sense how can they be effective as lies? > > Interestingly, when Paulhan sits down to write a whole book ("Les deux > fonctions de language") he decides that the whole distinction between > "sens" and "signifance" is nonsense and insignificant, and he ignores it! > As A.A. Leontiev remarked, Paulhan just means the connotation and > denotation of words, not the real meaning in use and the potential meaning > in the dictionary. > > So here's the problem. Vygotsky clearly HAS read this article and DOES use > it: the stuff on the world having the "sense" of the solar system--all of > that stuff is here. But the key distinction that Vygotsky really needs--the > distinction which is related to GENERALIZATION and to ABSTRACTION, which > will allow him to show how word meanings can develop into true > concepts--that's what's missing. And that's what is right there in > Volosinov, alongside a social mechanism which will allow us to show how > socialization into language is also individuation into free will. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 11 February 2015 at 10:23, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > >> Hi David, >> >> It has been a long time since I did some exploration into Jean Paulhan. I >> had thought he was a very important literary/theater critic in Paris, >> actually more famous than his father at the time (I didn't know he was a >> Christian minister - hmmm). But I remember reading that his small magazine >> was very influential. I may be wrong about this, fog of philosophy and all >> that. I also remember that the section he wrote on sense and meaning was >> much more than a throw off. I remember reading a pretty intricate couple >> of pages. He was a really interesting fellow. >> >> Michael >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg >> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 7:16 PM >> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word >> >> The weird thing, Andy, is that Paulhan never said any such thing. >> Vygotsky's referring to Paulhan's essay "Qu'est-ce que le sens des mots?" >> where Paulhan, who is a Christian minister and not to be confused with his >> well known philosopher father, simply takes the banal view that words have >> connotations as well as denotations. Paulhan becomes extremely distressed >> when he tries to explain what the denotation of a phrase like >> "inexpressible in words" is, and gives up. When he tackles the whole >> question at book length, he uses completely different categories of >> analysis. >> >> I have always believed, and now I am quite sure, that this section of >> Thinking and Speech originally referred to Volosinov's distinction between >> "thema" and "meaning", from "Marxism and the Philosophy of Language". >> "Thema" is the concrete sense that a word has in a specific situation: it >> is what "you" means when I use it to refer to Andy Blundent. "Meaning" is >> all the potential meanings that a word might have, considered abstractly: >> it is what "you" means in the dictionary, in general, as a potential way >> of addressing every single or group of humans on earth. All words have >> both, but some have more of one and others have more of the other (e.g. >> proper nouns have more Theme and common nouns more meaning; verbs, which >> are all common verbs in the sense that we don't try to pretend that actions >> are once-occurent, are more Theme when they are tensed and more Meaning >> when they are infinitive). >> >> Lucien Seve confirms that Vygotsky was a close reader of Volosinov, >> particularly in the last few years when both were teaching at Herzen >> Pedagogical Institute in Leningrad (and both were dying of tuberculosis). >> Vygotsky's references to Volosinov were all edited out of his works. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 27 January 2015 at 14:16, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >>> Larry, this question (the meaning of "the inner aspect of a word, its >>> meaning" has come up before, and I think not satisfactorily answered. >>> I did a search on "Thinking and Speech" for all the uses of the word >>> "inner". 283 of the 329 of them are "inner speech" and all the others >>> are referring to mental or psychological, and then there's "inner >>> aspect of a word." >>> The related term is "sense," and in Chapter 7, citing Paulhan >>> apparently with approval, he says: >>> >>> "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word?s sense >>> over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the psychological >>> analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a word?s >>> sense and meaning. A word?s sense is the aggregate of all the >>> psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result of >>> the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which has >>> several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one of >>> these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of >>> speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these zones." >>> >>> So a word's sense is the *totality* of "*all* the psychological facts >>> that arise in our consciousness as a result of the word." >>> But meaning (i.e., I suggest, "sense") "is only *one of these zones" >>> of the sense that the word acquires in the context of speech." >>> So the inner aspect of the word is *part* of the totality of the >>> psychological facts that arise as a result of the word. >>> Specifically, it is what we intend, or "the most stable, unified, and >>> precise of these zones," whereas in uttering the word there are all >>> sorts of associated feelings etc., which are not "meant" but are part >>> of the sense nonetheless. >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Henry >>>> I am referring to chapter 9 in the book "The Cambridge Companion to >>>> Vygotsky" >>>> Here is the link to google books >>>> >>>> https://books.google.ca/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&printsec= >>>> frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> Henry, what is "inner form" ? The answer to this is very complicated >>>> and includes exploring the relation of "sense and meaning" II would >>>> recommend getting the book from a library as every chapter is >>>> >> interesting. >> >>>> Vladimir Zinchenko's chapter I found very informative as Vladimir >>>> puts Vygotsky and Shpet into dialogue in a way that offers a close >>>> reading of Vygotsky. >>>> >>>> Today Peter sent a page on this same topic. The sentence "in other >>>> words, we are dealing with signs that do not only refer to things but >>>> also express some MEANING." (Shpet, 1927) >>>> >>>> Inner form is the exploration of the "but also express some meaning" >>>> >>>> There is the external referring to things AND the "internal form" the >>>> aspect of sign that expresses the "living form" of word, image, and >>>> action. >>>> >>>> As Martin and Mike have mentioned we are exploring the phenomena that >>>> emerges from within the "gap" and does involve imaginal processes. >>>> >>>> This is my interpretation of "inner form" but I would invite others >>>> to correct my [mis]understanding on the way to more clarity Larry >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Larry, >>>>> Please help me: >>>>> 1) What is ?inner form?? >>>>> 2) I can?t find the Zinchenko article in my emails. Was it sent out >>>>> or a link to it? >>>>> Thanks for your help. >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 11 16:13:58 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 00:13:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: sense, meaning and inner aspect of word In-Reply-To: <54DBE848.9070004@mira.net> References: <3C0F17DA-78D7-48E5-B2C6-18795AE8E99A@umich.edu> <55E3E454-167D-4A6C-ACBF-55D5C319DF24@uniandes.edu.co> <1422155973918.74984@unm.edu> <5DDE3284-61E1-4C72-9302-736E15DDFB6D@uniandes.edu.co> <0A796E27-C88F-47FA-BAA2-7EB7D3AF263C@gmail.com> <54C71F43.1000903@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A3F781@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> , <54DBE848.9070004@mira.net> Message-ID: <1423700039409.72893@unm.edu> Respectfully Andy, I disagree with this.This being: "I do not agree that 'the distinction between private "sense" and social sense. ... is really the key to the problem'." I think there is a distinct line between the private and the social in terms of thought and reflection, if I am understanding you properly. There are commonalities and aspects that are shared or copied. An artist's or writer's interaction with one's medium is a private affair and pursed in isolation, so it is social in the sense that one is social with oneself, using the medium to reflect that relationship with self, as well as it generates from the experience of sharing in a social context with caregivers and teachers. Still this private "sense" is entirely different from the "sense" when working in a wider circle of others: the manner that concepts manifest and take form have a different process and flow because one isn't required to turn the thoughts into speech when one is alone and this is a requirement when one is with another person, since we are not yet beings who are reliably telepathic! :) I sometimes believe that I suffer from not being able to articulate myself as well because my experience is one that has involved great stretches of isolation, so my way of thinking is not so dependent upon social conventions but it is more affective or complex-based as David has pointed out. I don't think that that is a lessor form of thinking pattern, just different. It would be like privileging my liver over my heart. I need both organs but for different reasons. Of course, I do not see these processes like organs at all, because they are developed through social experience (even if that is a social experience of self alone) and not through genetic instruction (as in DNA). Furthermore, from my experience in a university setting and in an art school I can say fairly emphatically that there are different processes that come to different places from different places, or different places that end up in the same place. This experience may explain the wide array of diversity in thinking, because working in shape and color and symbols and tools as a means to communicate possesses a different quality than when employing speech and the written word. I am not saying that private speech is has no social component, but they operate differently because one doesn't have to make sense in the same way that one does when speaking to another or speaking to many others. One can look to the telegraphic writing of Virginia Woolf to see this in action. I believe that this is present in Vygotsky's notes to himself as well. What I appreciate so much about David's posts is that he recognizes this reality quite clearly and does not take t for granted. Likely because of all the different language playgrounds that he plays in. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Wed Feb 11 19:12:34 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 14:12:34 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Margaret Archer Message-ID: <54DC1A22.8060104@mira.net> Is there anyone on line who has read Margaret Archer and can give me an opinion on how her ideas fit with Vygotsky and Activity Theory and how her social theory stacks up? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Feb 11 19:39:28 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 19:39:28 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: IACCP 2015 Call for Papers -- Extended Deadline In-Reply-To: <63CFA5B9-69AE-4851-8B23-67E4D3684C90@hawaii.edu> References: <33B02510-91BA-4AA3-A5C6-D8924DC5A1CE@hawaii.edu> <63CFA5B9-69AE-4851-8B23-67E4D3684C90@hawaii.edu> Message-ID: Almost certainly this should prove an interesting meeting to attend and/or participate in. mike IACCP 2015 * Chiapas, Mexico * July 28-31 View this email in your >> browser >> *Helpful >> Information* IACCP 2015 Website >> >> *Questions* iaccp2015@gmail.com >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> We have extended the deadline for submissions for the IACCP 2015 regional >> meeting in San Crist?bal de las Casas, Mexico to March 15, 2015. >> >> We look forward to receiving your submissions and to seeing you in Mexico. >> >> All good wishes, >> Ashley Maynard >> >> *Copyright ? 2015 Ashley Maynard, All rights reserved.* >> You are receiving this email because you are a member of IACCP or >> attended IACCP LA 2013. >> >> *Our mailing address is:* >> Ashley Maynard >> University of Hawai'i at M?noa, Department of Psychology >> 2530 Dole Street, Sakamaki C 400 >> Honolulu, HI, HI 96822-2294 >> >> Add us to your address book >> >> >> >> unsubscribe from this list >> >> update subscription preferences >> >> >> >> [image: Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] >> >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Feb 11 19:45:19 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:45:19 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Margaret Archer Message-ID: I have andy...her work is a critique of anthony giddens' structurationists praxis theory. ?Giddens attempts to resolve the structure agency problematic through his notion of duality. ?Giddens argues that consciousness and social structure is a duality, the internalization of a social structure as recursively organized and reproduced as a social actor's practical consciousness. ?Margaret archer takes Giddens ' s structure-agency issue in another direction by demonstrating the linkage between agency and culture as proposed by activity theorists. ?So for archer, structure, culture, and agency can be distinguished for analytic purposes, although they are intertwined in social life. See her work (1988), Culture and agency: the place of culture in social theory Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden
Date:02/11/2015 10:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Margaret Archer
Is there anyone on line who has read Margaret Archer and can give me an opinion on how her ideas fit with Vygotsky and Activity Theory and how her social theory stacks up? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Feb 11 19:47:06 2015 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:47:06 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Margaret Archer Message-ID: <4n67q3kjymye5i9qvgxi1h33.1423712826093@email.android.com> Most of her reading of Giddens is on his 1980 work, "the constitution of society" Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden
Date:02/11/2015 10:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Margaret Archer
Is there anyone on line who has read Margaret Archer and can give me an opinion on how her ideas fit with Vygotsky and Activity Theory and how her social theory stacks up? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Feb 11 20:18:04 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:18:04 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Margaret Archer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds interesting, thanks for pointing to Archer's work. mike On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > I have andy...her work is a critique of anthony giddens' structurationists > praxis theory. Giddens attempts to resolve the structure agency > problematic through his notion of duality. Giddens argues that > consciousness and social structure is a duality, the internalization of a > social structure as recursively organized and reproduced as a social > actor's practical consciousness. Margaret archer takes Giddens ' s > structure-agency issue in another direction by demonstrating the linkage > between agency and culture as proposed by activity theorists. So for > archer, structure, culture, and agency can be distinguished for analytic > purposes, although they are intertwined in social life. > > See her work (1988), > > Culture and agency: the place of culture in social theory > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden < > ablunden@mira.net>
Date:02/11/2015 10:12 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Margaret Archer
>
Is there anyone on line who has read Margaret Archer and can give me > an > opinion on how her ideas fit with Vygotsky and Activity Theory and how > her social theory stacks up? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Wed Feb 11 20:21:23 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:21:23 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Margaret Archer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54DC2A43.6070904@mira.net> I have her "Structure, Agency and the Internal Conversation" which makes on think of Vygotsky. But I think I'll order the one Paul recommends too: " Culture and agency: the place of culture in social theory" Another question: does she have a specific approach to historical research? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Sounds interesting, thanks for pointing to Archer's work. > mike > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > wrote: > > I have andy...her work is a critique of anthony giddens' > structurationists praxis theory. Giddens attempts to resolve the > structure agency problematic through his notion of duality. > Giddens argues that consciousness and social structure is a > duality, the internalization of a social structure as recursively > organized and reproduced as a social actor's practical > consciousness. Margaret archer takes Giddens ' s structure-agency > issue in another direction by demonstrating the linkage between > agency and culture as proposed by activity theorists. So for > archer, structure, culture, and agency can be distinguished for > analytic purposes, although they are intertwined in social life. > > See her work (1988), > > Culture and agency: the place of culture in social theory > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy > Blunden > >
Date:02/11/2015 10:12 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] > Margaret Archer
>
Is there anyone on line who has read Margaret Archer and can > give me an > opinion on how her ideas fit with Vygotsky and Activity Theory and how > her social theory stacks up? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Feb 11 20:21:57 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 20:21:57 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Margaret Archer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The book looks interesting. here is a review for a closer glimpse. mike On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:18 PM, mike cole wrote: > Sounds interesting, thanks for pointing to Archer's work. > mike > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> I have andy...her work is a critique of anthony giddens' >> structurationists praxis theory. Giddens attempts to resolve the structure >> agency problematic through his notion of duality. Giddens argues that >> consciousness and social structure is a duality, the internalization of a >> social structure as recursively organized and reproduced as a social >> actor's practical consciousness. Margaret archer takes Giddens ' s >> structure-agency issue in another direction by demonstrating the linkage >> between agency and culture as proposed by activity theorists. So for >> archer, structure, culture, and agency can be distinguished for analytic >> purposes, although they are intertwined in social life. >> >> See her work (1988), >> >> Culture and agency: the place of culture in social theory >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden < >> ablunden@mira.net>
Date:02/11/2015 10:12 PM (GMT-05:00) >>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Margaret Archer >>
>>
Is there anyone on line who has read Margaret Archer and can give >> me an >> opinion on how her ideas fit with Vygotsky and Activity Theory and how >> her social theory stacks up? >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: archer.review.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 688251 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150211/2148d799/attachment-0001.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 11 21:58:27 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 05:58:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Margaret Archer In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1423720709171.78970@unm.edu> Hi, Some questions from the Archer review mike attached that came up for me while reading: 1. What is meant by "structure" when discussing morphogenesis/morphostasis 2. What is meant by a "holder" of an idea? Is this a person? Or some inert object, like a book? A container? 3. Is aesthetic interest a material interest? 4. How does play relate to "material interest"? Or enjoyments? 5. Archer's take on "well-ordered sociocultural conditions" and their suppression reminds me of Richard Wright's Non-Zero, but he sounds far more optimistic about it because he doesn't the see conditions as suppression but more like contagion that gains speed over time. 6. How is morphogenesis different from syncretism? 7. I wonder if it is correct to position history as an add-on, rather than a central position? I'm referencing this question to: "In her opinion, one should add analytical histories of emergence to this format." 8. The concept of conflations going upward or clustering in the middle or going downward is a little confusing to me. Is this in relation to class? Or individual to collectives? 9. The distinction of three worlds, physical, mental, and ideal seems Cartesian to me, albeit disguised, because there is a separation between mental and ideal. The notion of an idea being within a book means that the ideal world captured in objects, makes them physical, right? I'm not sure I follow this very well. Especially if the objective world (is that the first, second, or third world? or a fourth world?) is conceived as culture. How would a song be defined in this system? 10. AHA! This is all tied up and explained nicely in the critique here: (p 7) "By applying analytical dualism to both structure and culture, Archer turns cultural processes into a mirror of structural processes. When material interests determine the cultural domain, this implies that this domain is subsumed under the structural domain. The autonomous dynamism of culture, in which mental processes mediate the relationship between objective culture on its material foundation, as in Popper's theory, has been cut out of Archer's theory. Instead, she lets vested material interests be the connecting link between objective culture and its material foundation. Thinking, then, does not become decisive for the development of culture. On the contrary, the material advantages of thinking become decisive for this development. In this way culture is subsumed under structure." 11. The subsequent critique from there seems to also show the dangers of blending theories by cherry picking. What I make of this is that it is a dangerous practice, in the sense that it results in a theory with wide holes and gaps with a structure not supported by empiricism, in this case "analytical histories of emergence." This was a great critique! I learned a lot. Thanks mike! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Feb 11 22:03:20 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:03:20 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This thread is focusing on Nissen's work as presented in the two articles attached. I would like to return to the "journal of Dialogic Pedagogy" article on page A25. He describes his concept of *"collective" *as a term which brings together meaning and sense. He writes, "I suggest the concept of *collective* as a kind of *subject*. A community whose singular existence is no longer accidental, nor simply a function of a shared project, but self-constituted and self-conscious, mediated by its precarious relations to other subjects - including, importantly, participants - as these relations are formed *in and with* cultural standards under singular circumstances. Recognizing itself as recognized by these others. In the terms of Hegel's dialectics, it is a singular "we" that exists *in and for itself *as an "us". The implication is that empowerment involves recognition as participant of recognized collectives." I would suggest that Nissen's concept "collective" may be considered a "figural world" that in being seen "as such" becomes that which is imagined. Another central concept that Nissen uses is "prototypical" as indicating the way or approach of modelling practises as "embodying" concrete universals. Another world with similar quality would be "incarnating" concrete universals. Nissen is suggesting Freire's work on "conscientization" can be used as a "prototypical model" and in this way can be transported to other places and times such as Copenhagen and working with youth on the streets. Nissen is asking how concepts such as "collectives" and "prototypical" can be related to different traditions that carry what seem like different meanings but may potentially share a common sense. [theme] For example he asks, "How did *conscientization* develop from Christian *conscience* and Enlightenment *consciousness*, and how did it later transform into a psychologized empowerment?" This question is addressed as this movement is explored in the article. Prototypical concrete universals are *theoretical, but they do not easily translate* to an immediate common sense. They must be mediated within *collectives* and therefore do not lend themselves to simple and reductionist standardized concepts. [such as in dictionaries]. To understand prototypical concepts we need time and effort to first take the prototypes seriously, in their own right, and then time and effort [as models] to make them relevant as they are translated across space and time. I hope I have done justice to Morten Nissen's understanding of the concepts "collectives" and "prototypes" which found insightful and I hope to explore further. I would recommend reading the two articles. He has thought deeply on these "themes" On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:45 PM, mike cole wrote: > Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here. > > Concerning: > > He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is > the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. > > And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part ways > here? > I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to > these texts > at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and doing > my best to keep up. > mike > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work. > > > > I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the > > Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda > > Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality] > > In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" > comparing > > and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas. > > It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while > Bahktin > > references "smysl" as "themes". > > > > I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" . > > > > He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is > > the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. > > > > A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most > > important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through > social > > experience ... realized through various significations .... > > Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to > > come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In *this > > sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity... > > Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings > > within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to > create > > new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of > > activities they take part in throughout their lives. > > > > I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of > > imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this > > "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie and > > smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a > zone > > of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form]. > > As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating sense > and > > meaning. > > > > If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is > only > > one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with > > the power of becoming within zones. > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Larry. > > > > > > Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we > > > learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra > > Mukerji, > > > has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the > > > gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to > > imagine > > > Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot > > > what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, > > > ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming > > > > persons". > > > > > > > > So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also > > multiple > > > > standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological > > > imperialism?? > > > > > > > > I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that > > are > > > > exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves > ethical > > > > questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel > > formations > > > > [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using > > notions > > > > such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely > > > > objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest > > they > > > > are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" > > that > > > > abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] > > > > > > > > Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and > ask > > > > questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. > > > > > > > > The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we > form > > > > hybrid cultural forms. > > > > Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible > > > > places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an > instantiation > > > of > > > > the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and > > making > > > > "real"] > > > > > > > > Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? > Is > > my > > > > question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to > > > breath > > > > and come "to life"?? > > > > > > > > Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this > > "place". > > > > > > > > How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility > of > > > > bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a > > > > different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always > > situated, > > > > never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. > > > > > > > > Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's > > > > ideological imperialism. > > > > Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. > > > De-constructing > > > > the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid > forms > > > > neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on > > > that > > > > > other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across > > > socio-cultural > > > > > contexts, or as Nissen says: > > > > > > > > > > " the question whether and how standards of educational practice > can > > be > > > > > transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural > distances > > > is > > > > > far from straightforward > > > > > ? ? > > > > > and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish > experience, I > > > was > > > > > impelled to reconsider it." > > > > > > > > > > I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's > > > issues > > > > of > > > > > "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the > "forming > > of > > > > > persons". > > > > > > > > > > That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological > imperialism? > > > > > > > > > > I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather > > > > approaches > > > > > a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from > one > > > > > cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples > > everywhere > > > > > care very much about "forming persons". > > > > > > > > > > No? > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in > > > > movement > > > > > > and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted > > > before > > > > as > > > > > > part of the discussion. Apologies. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I > > think. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > > an > > > > > object > > > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Feb 11 22:09:28 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 17:09:28 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54DC4398.5020007@mira.net> In Nissen's theory a collective is a project, not something imagined. A project does entail a figured world a la Dot Holland, but a figured world lacks a collective motive which unites the collective. A figured world is just a field of individual competition for rewards. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > This thread is focusing on Nissen's work as presented in the two articles > attached. > > I would like to return to the "journal of Dialogic Pedagogy" article on > page A25. > > He describes his concept of *"collective" *as a term which brings together > meaning and sense. > He writes, > > "I suggest the concept of *collective* as a kind of *subject*. A community > whose singular existence is no longer accidental, nor simply a function of > a shared project, but self-constituted and self-conscious, mediated by its > precarious relations to other subjects - including, importantly, > participants - as these relations are formed *in and with* cultural > standards under singular circumstances. Recognizing itself as recognized > by these others. In the terms of Hegel's dialectics, it is a singular "we" > that exists *in and for itself *as an "us". The implication is that > empowerment involves recognition as participant of recognized > collectives." > > I would suggest that Nissen's concept "collective" may be considered a > "figural world" that in being seen "as such" becomes that which is > imagined. > > Another central concept that Nissen uses is "prototypical" as indicating > the way or approach of modelling practises as "embodying" concrete > universals. Another world with similar quality would be "incarnating" > concrete universals. Nissen is suggesting Freire's work on > "conscientization" can be used as a "prototypical model" and in this way > can be transported to other places and times such as Copenhagen and working > with youth on the streets. > Nissen is asking how concepts such as "collectives" and "prototypical" can > be related to different traditions that carry what seem like different > meanings but may potentially share a common sense. [theme] > > For example he asks, > > "How did *conscientization* develop from Christian *conscience* and > Enlightenment *consciousness*, and how did it later transform into a > psychologized empowerment?" This question is addressed as this movement is > explored in the article. > > Prototypical concrete universals are *theoretical, but they do not easily > translate* to an immediate common sense. They must be mediated within > *collectives* and therefore do not lend themselves to simple and > reductionist standardized concepts. [such as in dictionaries]. > To understand prototypical concepts we need time and effort to first take > the prototypes seriously, in their own right, and then time and effort [as > models] to make them relevant as they are translated across space and time. > > I hope I have done justice to Morten Nissen's understanding of the concepts > "collectives" and "prototypes" which found insightful and I hope to explore > further. I would recommend reading the two articles. He has thought deeply > on these "themes" > > > > On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:45 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >> Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here. >> >> Concerning: >> >> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is >> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. >> >> And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part ways >> here? >> I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to >> these texts >> at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and doing >> my best to keep up. >> mike >> >> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work. >>> >>> I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the >>> Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda >>> Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality] >>> In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" >>> >> comparing >> >>> and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas. >>> It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while >>> >> Bahktin >> >>> references "smysl" as "themes". >>> >>> I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" . >>> >>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is >>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. >>> >>> A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most >>> important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through >>> >> social >> >>> experience ... realized through various significations .... >>> Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to >>> come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In *this >>> sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity... >>> Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings >>> within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to >>> >> create >> >>> new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of >>> activities they take part in throughout their lives. >>> >>> I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of >>> imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this >>> "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie and >>> smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a >>> >> zone >> >>> of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form]. >>> As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating sense >>> >> and >> >>> meaning. >>> >>> If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is >>> >> only >> >>> one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with >>> the power of becoming within zones. >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Larry. >>>> >>>> Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we >>>> learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra >>>> >>> Mukerji, >>> >>>> has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the >>>> gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to >>>> >>> imagine >>> >>>> Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot >>>> what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, >>>> ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Greg, >>>>> I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming >>>>> persons". >>>>> >>>>> So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also >>>>> >>> multiple >>> >>>>> standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological >>>>> >>>> imperialism?? >>>> >>>>> I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that >>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>> exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves >>>>> >> ethical >> >>>>> questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel >>>>> >>> formations >>> >>>>> [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using >>>>> >>> notions >>> >>>>> such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely >>>>> objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest >>>>> >>> they >>> >>>>> are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" >>>>> >>> that >>> >>>>> abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] >>>>> >>>>> Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and >>>>> >> ask >> >>>>> questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. >>>>> >>>>> The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we >>>>> >> form >> >>>>> hybrid cultural forms. >>>>> Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible >>>>> places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an >>>>> >> instantiation >> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and >>>>> >>> making >>> >>>>> "real"] >>>>> >>>>> Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? >>>>> >> Is >> >>> my >>> >>>>> question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to >>>>> >>>> breath >>>> >>>>> and come "to life"?? >>>>> >>>>> Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this >>>>> >>> "place". >>> >>>>> How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility >>>>> >> of >> >>>>> bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a >>>>> different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always >>>>> >>> situated, >>> >>>>> never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. >>>>> >>>>> Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's >>>>> ideological imperialism. >>>>> Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. >>>>> >>>> De-constructing >>>> >>>>> the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid >>>>> >> forms >> >>>>> neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < >>>>> >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on >>>>>> >>>> that >>>> >>>>>> other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across >>>>>> >>>> socio-cultural >>>> >>>>>> contexts, or as Nissen says: >>>>>> >>>>>> " the question whether and how standards of educational practice >>>>>> >> can >> >>> be >>> >>>>>> transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural >>>>>> >> distances >> >>>> is >>>> >>>>>> far from straightforward >>>>>> ? ? >>>>>> and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish >>>>>> >> experience, I >> >>>> was >>>> >>>>>> impelled to reconsider it." >>>>>> >>>>>> I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's >>>>>> >>>> issues >>>> >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>> "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the >>>>>> >> "forming >> >>> of >>> >>>>>> persons". >>>>>> >>>>>> That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological >>>>>> >> imperialism? >> >>>>>> I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather >>>>>> >>>>> approaches >>>>> >>>>>> a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from >>>>>> >> one >> >>>>>> cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples >>>>>> >>> everywhere >>> >>>>>> care very much about "forming persons". >>>>>> >>>>>> No? >>>>>> >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in >>>>>>> >>>>> movement >>>>> >>>>>>> and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted >>>>>>> >>>> before >>>> >>>>> as >>>>> >>>>>>> part of the discussion. Apologies. >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I >>>>>>> >>> think. >>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>>> >>> an >>> >>>>>> object >>>>>> >>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> >>> object >>> >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Feb 11 22:39:53 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:39:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: <54DC4398.5020007@mira.net> References: <54DC4398.5020007@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, In the way Nissen asked about the transfer of meaning from conscience to consciousness to conscientization as modelled and travelling across traditions, I wonder if "a" collective motive may have a shared "image". Is it possible that "a" motive that is collective is also a motive that is "figured". The singularity of the collective motive as a project to be "embodied" is a metaphor and therefore an image. In bringing the shared motive to actuality [being embodied]this act must be envisioned as possible. Andy you wrote, "figured world is just a field of individual competition for rewards" and this may be the standard meaning of the concept "figured world". I was using the term "figured" [ personal sense] as being collectively imagined and therefore participating in collective motives actualizing "worlds". [personal sense] How this personal sense becomes "meaning" which is expressing collective motive is what I was attempting to indicate. This "place" of empowerment involving recognition as participating in recognized collectives. The main reason I posted to was acknowledge Nissen's understanding of "collectives" and "prototypical" as helping to expand my understanding beyond personal sense to shared meaning. Larry On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > In Nissen's theory a collective is a project, not something imagined. A > project does entail a figured world a la Dot Holland, but a figured world > lacks a collective motive which unites the collective. A figured world is > just a field of individual competition for rewards. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > >> This thread is focusing on Nissen's work as presented in the two articles >> attached. >> >> I would like to return to the "journal of Dialogic Pedagogy" article on >> page A25. >> >> He describes his concept of *"collective" *as a term which brings together >> meaning and sense. >> He writes, >> >> "I suggest the concept of *collective* as a kind of *subject*. A >> community >> whose singular existence is no longer accidental, nor simply a function of >> a shared project, but self-constituted and self-conscious, mediated by its >> precarious relations to other subjects - including, importantly, >> participants - as these relations are formed *in and with* cultural >> standards under singular circumstances. Recognizing itself as recognized >> by these others. In the terms of Hegel's dialectics, it is a singular >> "we" >> that exists *in and for itself *as an "us". The implication is that >> empowerment involves recognition as participant of recognized >> collectives." >> >> I would suggest that Nissen's concept "collective" may be considered a >> "figural world" that in being seen "as such" becomes that which is >> imagined. >> >> Another central concept that Nissen uses is "prototypical" as indicating >> the way or approach of modelling practises as "embodying" concrete >> universals. Another world with similar quality would be "incarnating" >> concrete universals. Nissen is suggesting Freire's work on >> "conscientization" can be used as a "prototypical model" and in this way >> can be transported to other places and times such as Copenhagen and >> working >> with youth on the streets. >> Nissen is asking how concepts such as "collectives" and "prototypical" can >> be related to different traditions that carry what seem like different >> meanings but may potentially share a common sense. [theme] >> >> For example he asks, >> >> "How did *conscientization* develop from Christian *conscience* and >> Enlightenment *consciousness*, and how did it later transform into a >> psychologized empowerment?" This question is addressed as this movement is >> explored in the article. >> >> Prototypical concrete universals are *theoretical, but they do not easily >> translate* to an immediate common sense. They must be mediated within >> *collectives* and therefore do not lend themselves to simple and >> >> reductionist standardized concepts. [such as in dictionaries]. >> To understand prototypical concepts we need time and effort to first take >> the prototypes seriously, in their own right, and then time and effort [as >> models] to make them relevant as they are translated across space and >> time. >> >> I hope I have done justice to Morten Nissen's understanding of the >> concepts >> "collectives" and "prototypes" which found insightful and I hope to >> explore >> further. I would recommend reading the two articles. He has thought deeply >> on these "themes" >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:45 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >> >>> Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here. >>> >>> Concerning: >>> >>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is >>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. >>> >>> And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part >>> ways >>> here? >>> I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to >>> these texts >>> at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and doing >>> my best to keep up. >>> mike >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work. >>>> >>>> I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the >>>> Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda >>>> Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality] >>>> In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" >>>> >>>> >>> comparing >>> >>> >>>> and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas. >>>> It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while >>>> >>>> >>> Bahktin >>> >>> >>>> references "smysl" as "themes". >>>> >>>> I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" . >>>> >>>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] >>>> is >>>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. >>>> >>>> A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most >>>> important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through >>>> >>>> >>> social >>> >>> >>>> experience ... realized through various significations .... >>>> Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to >>>> come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In >>>> *this >>>> sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity... >>>> Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings >>>> within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to >>>> >>>> >>> create >>> >>> >>>> new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of >>>> activities they take part in throughout their lives. >>>> >>>> I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of >>>> imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this >>>> "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie >>>> and >>>> smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a >>>> >>>> >>> zone >>> >>> >>>> of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form]. >>>> As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating sense >>>> >>>> >>> and >>> >>> >>>> meaning. >>>> >>>> If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is >>>> >>>> >>> only >>> >>> >>>> one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with >>>> the power of becoming within zones. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Larry. >>>>> >>>>> Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we >>>>> learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Mukerji, >>>> >>>> >>>>> has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the >>>>> gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to >>>>> >>>>> >>>> imagine >>>> >>>> >>>>> Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot >>>>> what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, >>>>> ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Greg, >>>>>> I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming >>>>>> persons". >>>>>> >>>>>> So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> multiple >>>> >>>> >>>>> standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> imperialism?? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> are >>>> >>>> >>>>> exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ethical >>> >>> >>>> questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> formations >>>> >>>> >>>>> [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> notions >>>> >>>> >>>>> such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely >>>>>> objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> they >>>> >>>> >>>>> are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> that >>>> >>>> >>>>> abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] >>>>>> >>>>>> Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ask >>> >>> >>>> questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> form >>> >>> >>>> hybrid cultural forms. >>>>>> Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible >>>>>> places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> instantiation >>> >>> >>>> of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> making >>>> >>>> >>>>> "real"] >>>>>> >>>>>> Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Is >>> >>> >>>> my >>>> >>>> >>>>> question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> breath >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and come "to life"?? >>>>>> >>>>>> Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> "place". >>>> >>>> >>>>> How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> of >>> >>> >>>> bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a >>>>>> different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> situated, >>>> >>>> >>>>> never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. >>>>>> >>>>>> Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's >>>>>> ideological imperialism. >>>>>> Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> De-constructing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> forms >>> >>> >>>> neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> socio-cultural >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> contexts, or as Nissen says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> " the question whether and how standards of educational practice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> can >>> >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>> >>>>> transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> distances >>> >>> >>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> far from straightforward >>>>>>> ? ? >>>>>>> and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> experience, I >>> >>> >>>> was >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> impelled to reconsider it." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> issues >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> "forming >>> >>> >>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>> persons". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> imperialism? >>> >>> >>>> I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> approaches >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> one >>> >>> >>>> cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> everywhere >>>> >>>> >>>>> care very much about "forming persons". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> movement >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> before >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> part of the discussion. Apologies. >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> think. >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> an >>>> >>>> >>>>> object >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> >>>>> >>>> object >>>> >>>> >>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Feb 12 05:47:53 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:47:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth In-Reply-To: References: <54DC4398.5020007@mira.net> Message-ID: The Nissen article is interesting, although I think functionalism is given rather short shrift. What the author seems to be omitting (Leontiev's motive, consciousness of a collective and the potential generative (or ongoing) life of the youth project) is a (functional) conception of autopoiesis. Other than this he seems to be bold, and I get the sense that he recognises that actively used theory has its own sources of objectivity. Where he ends up seems to be an almost impossible situation. But it looks like he is looking at the means and effects of institutional measurement ( http://substance.ku.dk/english/about/). What does one then do, I wonder, when one looks to abolish standards or to multiply them for each situation? With respect to third spaces, or circumstances for thinking and participating without coercion, I think it is worthwhile noting that these (in the sense of a ZPD like situation) are not power-free situations but situations that serve to reveal the objective circumstances being studied which has its own power, a power of logic and science which may fly in the face of institutionalised power (which, as I see it, is inevitably going to corrupt and stupefy). With respect to Archer, I get the impression she is undertaking a "two planes" like study, complete with a morphogenesis located at these two cross-sections. Personally, the way on from the 'two planes' for me was to recognised that these are merely two arbitrary cross-sections that can be usefully referenced. My (fleeting) impression is that she will be useful reading for those still stuck in a two-world view. Best, Huw On 12 February 2015 at 06:39, Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > In the way Nissen asked about the transfer of meaning from conscience to > consciousness to conscientization as modelled and travelling across > traditions, I wonder if "a" collective motive may have a shared "image". > Is it possible that "a" motive that is collective is also a motive that is > "figured". The singularity of the collective motive as a project to be > "embodied" is a metaphor and therefore an image. In bringing the > shared motive to actuality [being embodied]this act must be envisioned as > possible. > > Andy you wrote, "figured world is just a field of individual competition > for rewards" > > and this may be the standard meaning of the concept "figured world". > > I was using the term "figured" [ personal sense] as being collectively > imagined and therefore participating in collective motives actualizing > "worlds". [personal sense] How this personal sense becomes "meaning" which > is expressing collective motive is what I was attempting to indicate. This > "place" of empowerment involving recognition as participating in recognized > collectives. > > The main reason I posted to was acknowledge Nissen's understanding of > "collectives" and "prototypical" as helping to expand my understanding > beyond personal sense to shared meaning. > > Larry > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > In Nissen's theory a collective is a project, not something imagined. A > > project does entail a figured world a la Dot Holland, but a figured world > > lacks a collective motive which unites the collective. A figured world is > > just a field of individual competition for rewards. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > > >> This thread is focusing on Nissen's work as presented in the two > articles > >> attached. > >> > >> I would like to return to the "journal of Dialogic Pedagogy" article on > >> page A25. > >> > >> He describes his concept of *"collective" *as a term which brings > together > >> meaning and sense. > >> He writes, > >> > >> "I suggest the concept of *collective* as a kind of *subject*. A > >> community > >> whose singular existence is no longer accidental, nor simply a function > of > >> a shared project, but self-constituted and self-conscious, mediated by > its > >> precarious relations to other subjects - including, importantly, > >> participants - as these relations are formed *in and with* cultural > >> standards under singular circumstances. Recognizing itself as > recognized > >> by these others. In the terms of Hegel's dialectics, it is a singular > >> "we" > >> that exists *in and for itself *as an "us". The implication is that > >> empowerment involves recognition as participant of recognized > >> collectives." > >> > >> I would suggest that Nissen's concept "collective" may be considered a > >> "figural world" that in being seen "as such" becomes that which is > >> imagined. > >> > >> Another central concept that Nissen uses is "prototypical" as indicating > >> the way or approach of modelling practises as "embodying" concrete > >> universals. Another world with similar quality would be "incarnating" > >> concrete universals. Nissen is suggesting Freire's work on > >> "conscientization" can be used as a "prototypical model" and in this way > >> can be transported to other places and times such as Copenhagen and > >> working > >> with youth on the streets. > >> Nissen is asking how concepts such as "collectives" and "prototypical" > can > >> be related to different traditions that carry what seem like different > >> meanings but may potentially share a common sense. [theme] > >> > >> For example he asks, > >> > >> "How did *conscientization* develop from Christian *conscience* and > >> Enlightenment *consciousness*, and how did it later transform into a > >> psychologized empowerment?" This question is addressed as this movement > is > >> explored in the article. > >> > >> Prototypical concrete universals are *theoretical, but they do not > easily > >> translate* to an immediate common sense. They must be mediated within > >> *collectives* and therefore do not lend themselves to simple and > >> > >> reductionist standardized concepts. [such as in dictionaries]. > >> To understand prototypical concepts we need time and effort to first > take > >> the prototypes seriously, in their own right, and then time and effort > [as > >> models] to make them relevant as they are translated across space and > >> time. > >> > >> I hope I have done justice to Morten Nissen's understanding of the > >> concepts > >> "collectives" and "prototypes" which found insightful and I hope to > >> explore > >> further. I would recommend reading the two articles. He has thought > deeply > >> on these "themes" > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:45 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here. > >>> > >>> Concerning: > >>> > >>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] > is > >>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. > >>> > >>> And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part > >>> ways > >>> here? > >>> I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to > >>> these texts > >>> at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and > doing > >>> my best to keep up. > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work. > >>>> > >>>> I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the > >>>> Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda > >>>> Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality] > >>>> In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense" > >>>> > >>>> > >>> comparing > >>> > >>> > >>>> and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas. > >>>> It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while > >>>> > >>>> > >>> Bahktin > >>> > >>> > >>>> references "smysl" as "themes". > >>>> > >>>> I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" > . > >>>> > >>>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] > >>>> is > >>>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you. > >>>> > >>>> A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most > >>>> important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through > >>>> > >>>> > >>> social > >>> > >>> > >>>> experience ... realized through various significations .... > >>>> Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet > to > >>>> come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In > >>>> *this > >>>> sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of > creativity... > >>>> Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings > >>>> within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to > >>>> > >>>> > >>> create > >>> > >>> > >>>> new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of > >>>> activities they take part in throughout their lives. > >>>> > >>>> I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act > of > >>>> imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for > this > >>>> "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie > >>>> and > >>>> smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a > >>>> > >>>> > >>> zone > >>> > >>> > >>>> of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form]. > >>>> As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating > sense > >>>> > >>>> > >>> and > >>> > >>> > >>>> meaning. > >>>> > >>>> If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is > >>>> > >>>> > >>> only > >>> > >>> > >>>> one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging > with > >>>> the power of becoming within zones. > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Larry. > >>>>> > >>>>> Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which > we > >>>>> learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Mukerji, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the > >>>>> gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> imagine > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a > lot > >>>>> what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field, > >>>>> ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space. > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Greg, > >>>>>> I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming > >>>>>> persons". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> multiple > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> imperialism?? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> are > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> ethical > >>> > >>> > >>>> questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> formations > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> notions > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely > >>>>>> objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> they > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> that > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> abide within these formative "places" [or spaces] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> ask > >>> > >>> > >>>> questions of who decides, about what, in which situations. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> form > >>> > >>> > >>>> hybrid cultural forms. > >>>>>> Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible > >>>>>> places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> instantiation > >>> > >>> > >>>> of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> making > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> "real"] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle?? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Is > >>> > >>> > >>>> my > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> breath > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> and come "to life"?? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> "place". > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> of > >>> > >>> > >>>> bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a > >>>>>> different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> situated, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's > >>>>>> ideological imperialism. > >>>>>> Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> De-constructing > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> forms > >>> > >>> > >>>> neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson < > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> that > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> socio-cultural > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> contexts, or as Nissen says: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> " the question whether and how standards of educational practice > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> can > >>> > >>> > >>>> be > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> distances > >>> > >>> > >>>> is > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> far from straightforward > >>>>>>> ? ? > >>>>>>> and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> experience, I > >>> > >>> > >>>> was > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> impelled to reconsider it." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> issues > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> "forming > >>> > >>> > >>>> of > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> persons". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> imperialism? > >>> > >>> > >>>> I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> approaches > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> one > >>> > >>> > >>>> cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> everywhere > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> care very much about "forming persons". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> No? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -greg > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> movement > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> before > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> as > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> part of the discussion. Apologies. > >>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>> PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> think. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> an > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> object > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> object > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>> object > >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Feb 12 18:25:38 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 02:25:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... Message-ID: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> Hi everyone, So after doing a more careful reading, of the Nissen paper, which mike sent to the list last week, today I have a better grasp at what was bothering me about it. It is a carefully thought out paper, and informative. I like the way Nissen thinks about the problem. I don't think I'm crediting nor discrediting Nissen's observations, but offering a different way to look at the video project and how it is represented as therapy. Is this view informed by Foucault, or by Vygotsky, or by Lave, etc? I'm not certain. That is, my comments are not framed in a theoretical frame specifically, but rather something I'm responding to as in light of my own experiences about making artwork and activities that seek out the aesthetic, alongside the invisible narratives that we carry around in society to describe and theorize about those activities. Again, just t be clear, I am not against forms of therapy for drug addiction, if the work that is fantastic. Also, I don't presume to be informed about the difficulties facing the drug addict or the social workers that help her. I believe those are very private spaces, and we should do all we can to ensure that addicts can survive stigmatization, so they can successfully rebuild their lives. Instead, my commentary has more to do with questions of the spaces we have left for art making and aesthetic experiences and how we build narratives about them. And what is it that we are actually telling ourselves? So one of the things that I wondered upon my second reading is what would happen (as a thought sculpture) if instead of making a music video with a professional videographer, etc. that Berrin was given an entrepreneurial project to start a business? Say, to start a bakery, or a dog-walking service, or a yoga studio? I don't know, it doesn't matter what, but it's her choice. And let's say she had professional bankers and accountants and business coaches helping her to make this dream real, this business that she decided upon, that was 'user-directed.' Or let's say, she could be invited to go to college and she was given a kickass Vygotskian tutor and other academic advisors that were to help her negotiate through the experience of going through college and earning a degree and finding a vocation or career meaningful to her? With the idea she gets to direct her learning. Would these therapies work any different than the music video?? And how would these therapies measure up to a more faithful understanding of the ZPD? In terms of learning spaces? Learning zones with more capable others? Would the Nissen paper change? If so, how would it change? I'm not pushing the startup solution or the college solution as "the best of breed" in therapies, but if we were to swap that out from video production, we could see that she might have something after the activity was complete and it might provide the kind of external structure that might successfully empower her to pull herself out of a life of addiction. It might be successful because she was involved in creating that structure for herself (with help), something she may not have learned in her family of origin. Why might this be successful over making a video? Because she would have more options after the project is over, that's why. Compare this with what does she have after she creates the music video? There's a display around the web and her 15 minutes of fame, but then what?? I feel a sense of betrayal in this form of therapy, but then again, I don't know her entire situation. Still this bothered me. What else? Well, I already expounded upon the kitsch aspects of remake of the MTV Madonna video,and the hypocrisy we hold in watching this video feeling we have succeeded in rehabilitating the addict bringing her back into society. But on to a more poignant criticism, it has this narrative so cleanly maps on to (predictable) narratives about how artists are represented as drug addicts, as marginalized people who aren't fully functioning in society, and so we must give them crayons and paper so at least they are doing something meaningful with their bodies and minds. They are seen as children having temper tantrums and making art is like a straightjacket in a padded room where they won't hurt themselves. In fact at my school the last term I was there, I'd heard it was called "a finishing school for rich drug addicts," all of which I am not. Had I heard that when I applied, I would likely not have gone there. I did get a great education, but if that is what it was known as, that's pretty pathetic marketing. The narrative of the marginalized dysfunctional artist is particularly virulent, which the Nissen paper depicts quite well without meaning to do so. It is this that I find intriguing because the more I dig into that I can argue how art and the aesthetic are being systematically removed as devalued activities in our society, except for those who are marginalized or are somehow privileged to color with crayons and paper so they do not hurt themselves. Art is only for therapy for the mentally unstable or those who have lost control over their lives, so as to soothe them. What does this say about us? It is this coupling of aesthetic search activity as therapy was off-putting. It is true that doing these activities can be therapeutic, but any hobby can be therapeutic, or sports, or journaling, or talking to a dear friend: we find therapy in many different ways. That is a part of human experience. We are in constant need of therapy because of the fundamental human problem if existence and working it all out. Regardless, there is a valid argument to be made that making art that goes far far beyond catharsis. We frequently don't possess these kinds of observations or narratives about art, because the narrative of the marginalized artist tells us art-making is not considered real work. To bring this more to life to this audience, I'd like to make a juxtaposition to how frequently academic work is not seen as real work. There is nothing likely to upset you more and make you defensive, fellow xmcars, than to revisit that representation over and over again in social narratives. How do you fight that phantom, a phantom with no body, which has become more problematic with the advent of neoliberal depictions of "What is a University?" So I might not be commenting deeply about Nissen's critique of CHAT approaches to social work and healing drug addiction, but there is something problematic in the equating of art making (in the prototypical form of the music video as displayed on a website as verification of an effective form of therapy) with experiences for only marginalized members of society. Can the mimicry of celebrity (as I consider to be the effective produce of video project) really help the drug addict? Is this not similar to taking a homeless person out to get a nice meal at a fancy restaurant to verify my own charity, only to abandon the homeless person after I pay the bill? So I hope I've provided a more grounded critique on this, which may explain my initial, somewhat charged and perhaps inarticulate reactions. I suppose I needed time to consider the almost invisible narrative woven into the paper. ? Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 06:37:36 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 14:37:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> Message-ID: It looks like you're raising some of the same problems or conclusions, Annalisa. Note for anyone tracking this, there are presently two Nissen papers in circulation (could life be & meeting youth). A short while back, Annalisa, you were posing some questions related to Chomsky and other topics. It struck me that the introductory chapter from Losonsky's "Humboldt On Language" covered that ground in good ways (sorry I can't remember the specific questions). On a similar theme I watched one one of Chomsky's talks presented at Google (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3PwG4UoJ0Y) which covered some basic though still interesting points, it might be interesting to look at the papers he refers to with respect to the design bias of language for thinking over communication (if one was able to provide reasonable definitions of the two and also distinguish between them). My impression was that his points were much more aligned to the theories that I find reasonable (perhaps my older impression of him was conflated with Pinker), yet my sense (quite possibly completely wrong) is that he hasn't really come to terms with constructivist processes, he seem to focus on basic resources rather than how they can be transformed and used. Huw On 13 February 2015 at 02:25, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi everyone, > > > So after doing a more careful reading, of the Nissen paper, which mike > sent to the list last week, today I have a better grasp at what was > bothering me about it. > > > It is a carefully thought out paper, and informative. I like the way > Nissen thinks about the problem. I don't think I'm crediting nor > discrediting Nissen's observations, but offering a different way to look at > the video project and how it is represented as therapy. Is this view > informed by Foucault, or by Vygotsky, or by Lave, etc? I'm not certain. > > > That is, my comments are not framed in a theoretical frame specifically, > but rather something I'm responding to as in light of my own experiences > about making artwork and activities that seek out the aesthetic, alongside > the invisible narratives that we carry around in society to describe and > theorize about those activities. > > > Again, just t be clear, I am not against forms of therapy for drug > addiction, if the work that is fantastic. Also, I don't presume to be > informed about the difficulties facing the drug addict or the social > workers that help her. I believe those are very private spaces, and we > should do all we can to ensure that addicts can survive stigmatization, so > they can successfully rebuild their lives. > > > Instead, my commentary has more to do with questions of the spaces we have > left for art making and aesthetic experiences and how we build narratives > about them. And what is it that we are actually telling ourselves? > > > So one of the things that I wondered upon my second reading is what would > happen (as a thought sculpture) if instead of making a music video with a > professional videographer, etc. that Berrin was given an entrepreneurial > project to start a business? Say, to start a bakery, or a dog-walking > service, or a yoga studio? I don't know, it doesn't matter what, but it's > her choice. And let's say she had professional bankers and accountants and > business coaches helping her to make this dream real, this business that > she decided upon, that was 'user-directed.' > > > Or let's say, she could be invited to go to college and she was given a > kickass Vygotskian tutor and other academic advisors that were to help her > negotiate through the experience of going through college and earning a > degree and finding a vocation or career meaningful to her? With the idea > she gets to direct her learning. > > > Would these therapies work any different than the music video?? And how > would these therapies measure up to a more faithful understanding of the > ZPD? In terms of learning spaces? Learning zones with more capable others? > > > Would the Nissen paper change? If so, how would it change? > > > I'm not pushing the startup solution or the college solution as "the best > of breed" in therapies, but if we were to swap that out from video > production, we could see that she might have something after the activity > was complete and it might provide the kind of external structure that might > successfully empower her to pull herself out of a life of addiction. It > might be successful because she was involved in creating that structure for > herself (with help), something she may not have learned in her family of > origin. > > > Why might this be successful over making a video? Because she would have > more options after the project is over, that's why. Compare this with what > does she have after she creates the music video? There's a display around > the web and her 15 minutes of fame, but then what?? I feel a sense of > betrayal in this form of therapy, but then again, I don't know her entire > situation. > > > Still this bothered me. > > > What else? > > > Well, I already expounded upon the kitsch aspects of remake of the MTV > Madonna video,and the hypocrisy we hold in watching this video feeling we > have succeeded in rehabilitating the addict bringing her back into society. > But on to a more poignant criticism, it has this narrative so cleanly maps > on to (predictable) narratives about how artists are represented as drug > addicts, as marginalized people who aren't fully functioning in society, > and so we must give them crayons and paper so at least they are doing > something meaningful with their bodies and minds. They are seen as children > having temper tantrums and making art is like a straightjacket in a padded > room where they won't hurt themselves. > > > In fact at my school the last term I was there, I'd heard it was called "a > finishing school for rich drug addicts," all of which I am not. Had I heard > that when I applied, I would likely not have gone there. I did get a great > education, but if that is what it was known as, that's pretty pathetic > marketing. > > > The narrative of the marginalized dysfunctional artist is particularly > virulent, which the Nissen paper depicts quite well without meaning to do > so. It is this that I find intriguing because the more I dig into that I > can argue how art and the aesthetic are being systematically removed as > devalued activities in our society, except for those who are marginalized > or are somehow privileged to color with crayons and paper so they do not > hurt themselves. Art is only for therapy for the mentally unstable or those > who have lost control over their lives, so as to soothe them. > > > What does this say about us? > > > It is this coupling of aesthetic search activity as therapy was > off-putting. It is true that doing these activities can be therapeutic, but > any hobby can be therapeutic, or sports, or journaling, or talking to a > dear friend: we find therapy in many different ways. That is a part of > human experience. We are in constant need of therapy because of the > fundamental human problem if existence and working it all out. > > > Regardless, there is a valid argument to be made that making art that goes > far far beyond catharsis. We frequently don't possess these kinds of > observations or narratives about art, because the narrative of the > marginalized artist tells us art-making is not considered real work. > > > To bring this more to life to this audience, I'd like to make a > juxtaposition to how frequently academic work is not seen as real work. > There is nothing likely to upset you more and make you defensive, fellow > xmcars, than to revisit that representation over and over again in social > narratives. How do you fight that phantom, a phantom with no body, which > has become more problematic with the advent of neoliberal depictions of > "What is a University?" > > > So I might not be commenting deeply about Nissen's critique of CHAT > approaches to social work and healing drug addiction, but there is > something problematic in the equating of art making (in the prototypical > form of the music video as displayed on a website as verification of an > effective form of therapy) with experiences for only marginalized members > of society. > > > Can the mimicry of celebrity (as I consider to be the effective produce of > video project) really help the drug addict? Is this not similar to taking a > homeless person out to get a nice meal at a fancy restaurant to verify my > own charity, only to abandon the homeless person after I pay the bill? > > > So I hope I've provided a more grounded critique on this, which may > explain my initial, somewhat charged and perhaps inarticulate reactions. I > suppose I needed time to consider the almost invisible narrative woven into > the paper. ? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 11:56:00 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 19:56:00 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> Gee whiz, xmcars! my previous post had a lot of typos and I'm sorry for that! Thinking is faster than writing sometimes. Huw, Help me make your connections? I'm not following. I'm not sure what you've posted has to do with aesthetic experiences, the making of art, and the removal of these experiences and activities from public life. But I hope you'll let me know. After posting my thinking about this last night, I remembered how while I was in school, understanding from my own experiences, art was something anyone could learn, like learning history or math or chemistry. Yet it is marginalized even in the school. I don't think I was able to articulate that freely that at the time, because the marginalized artists seem to be the ones who were rewarded for living on the edge, in more ways than one. They would have been wasted words to which no one would have listened. The pressure to have to take on that cloak of marginalization as a young person can be intense, especially if the narrative is: to be considered any good, you have to shoot heroin and struggle with your addiction in order to make good art. What a great and effective way to systematically eradicate all the young artists in a society. Which controls the narrative as "making art is just breaking plates and putting that on a canvas." It's very different in Europe where artists are more valued members of society, and even loved, and there are means of sponsoring them interwoven into the society in different ways. Albeit not without flaws, but it's better than nothing. In the US there are diminishing contacts with art and aesthetic experiences in public spaces. The incidents for contact go up if you live in places like New York, but typically it's pretty barren. The only access for art is in an iPod or a laptop, or a movie theater, or a book or an art museum. All of these are mediated spaces that dictate our choices and how we are to experience them. Consider this recent article by Cory Doctorow: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/if-dishwashers-were-iphones Art as a part of everyday experience seems completely absent and diminishes each day. Unless, of course, I want to interpret sitting in commuter traffic as a kind of performance art of modern living. The only other means for aesthetic experiences is to go out in nature, and that can be difficult or at best inconvenient. Artists by their natures are sensitive and independent thinkers, likely because of the way they sense to world. That is not to say that the rest of us are insensitive or dependent thinkers, but that they are the first identifiable group of "people like that." If we remove the sensitive types and marginalize them, that is one way to remove some of those independent thinkers from the mainstream, so they do not spread that heretical contagion of independent thinking. It seems the next logical target if one were to have an objective to incrementally remove independent thinkers from spreading contagion is the university. So I would invite all of you to examine the narrative of artists in society and their removal or their channeling into "safe spaces" like 30 second videos, 3 minute songs, 30 minute sitcoms, 130 minute movies (because we have to put them somewhere, we can't just kill them). Then please consider if something similar is happening in the spaces of the university and independent thinking. I would not at all be surprised to see there are parallels. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 13:40:57 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 21:40:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The passing of David Carr Message-ID: <1423863657454.63716@unm.edu> I was sorry to learn of this today: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/13/david-carr-new-york-times-columnist-dies-suddenly-at-office? I really loved Mr. Carr's reporting on the media. I will miss him. Kind regards, Annalisa From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 14:36:43 2015 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:36:43 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> Message-ID: As an artist who was purposely marginalized in my urban US school for independent thinking, and now finds himself having a much better time teaching in Eastern Europe, I find these comments hauntingly on-target. Thank you, Annalisa. All best, Daniel On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Gee whiz, xmcars! my previous post had a lot of typos and I'm sorry for > that! Thinking is faster than writing sometimes. > > Huw, > > Help me make your connections? I'm not following. > > I'm not sure what you've posted has to do with aesthetic experiences, the > making of art, and the removal of these experiences and activities from > public life. But I hope you'll let me know. > > After posting my thinking about this last night, I remembered how while I > was in school, understanding from my own experiences, art was something > anyone could learn, like learning history or math or chemistry. Yet it is > marginalized even in the school. I don't think I was able to articulate > that freely that at the time, because the marginalized artists seem to be > the ones who were rewarded for living on the edge, in more ways than one. > They would have been wasted words to which no one would have listened. > > The pressure to have to take on that cloak of marginalization as a young > person can be intense, especially if the narrative is: to be considered any > good, you have to shoot heroin and struggle with your addiction in order to > make good art. > > What a great and effective way to systematically eradicate all the young > artists in a society. Which controls the narrative as "making art is just > breaking plates and putting that on a canvas." It's very different in > Europe where artists are more valued members of society, and even loved, > and there are means of sponsoring them interwoven into the society in > different ways. Albeit not without flaws, but it's better than nothing. > > In the US there are diminishing contacts with art and aesthetic > experiences in public spaces. The incidents for contact go up if you live > in places like New York, but typically it's pretty barren. The only access > for art is in an iPod or a laptop, or a movie theater, or a book or an art > museum. > > All of these are mediated spaces that dictate our choices and how we are > to experience them. Consider this recent article by Cory Doctorow: > > http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/if-dishwashers-were-iphones > > Art as a part of everyday experience seems completely absent and > diminishes each day. Unless, of course, I want to interpret sitting in > commuter traffic as a kind of performance art of modern living. The only > other means for aesthetic experiences is to go out in nature, and that can > be difficult or at best inconvenient. > > Artists by their natures are sensitive and independent thinkers, likely > because of the way they sense to world. That is not to say that the rest of > us are insensitive or dependent thinkers, but that they are the first > identifiable group of "people like that." If we remove the sensitive types > and marginalize them, that is one way to remove some of those independent > thinkers from the mainstream, so they do not spread that heretical > contagion of independent thinking. > > It seems the next logical target if one were to have an objective to > incrementally remove independent thinkers from spreading contagion is the > university. So I would invite all of you to examine the narrative of > artists in society and their removal or their channeling into "safe spaces" > like 30 second videos, 3 minute songs, 30 minute sitcoms, 130 minute movies > (because we have to put them somewhere, we can't just kill them). Then > please consider if something similar is happening in the spaces of the > university and independent thinking. > > I would not at all be surprised to see there are parallels. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 14:59:01 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 22:59:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> Message-ID: On 13 February 2015 at 19:56, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Gee whiz, xmcars! my previous post had a lot of typos and I'm sorry for > that! Thinking is faster than writing sometimes. > > Huw, > > Help me make your connections? I'm not following. > > I'm not sure what you've posted has to do with aesthetic experiences, the > making of art, and the removal of these experiences and activities from > public life. But I hope you'll let me know. > Annalisa, You mentioned a lack of support for self-sustaining ventures too. Re the dishwasher-brainwasher piece, actually I think you can see an intent to transfer the mentality of vertical design (apple's market) into social mannerisms -- a way of speaking that conveys the smoothing away of wrinkles (through design, of course). I personally own some mac products and am pleased with them, but it wasn't that mookiness that I was buying into. When I needed a backup device -- I really have no interest or recollection of what name their given -- I walked into a local store, up to a guy who was free, who happened to be the store manager, and asked for one of their "remote back up kits". To a technical guy this would have been perfectly reasonable, but the person I spoke to looked pretty affronted. Smoothness vanished and instead I got waspish comments about where to find it. On the other hand, whenever I venture into a starbucks the staff never seem to mind when I ask for a medium (sized) coffee. Anyway, with respect to the absence of art. I suspect this is more about fashions in the similitude of art. Which I suppose is equally problematic if the fashion is to consider the similitude of art as art. Best, Huw > After posting my thinking about this last night, I remembered how while I > was in school, understanding from my own experiences, art was something > anyone could learn, like learning history or math or chemistry. Yet it is > marginalized even in the school. I don't think I was able to articulate > that freely that at the time, because the marginalized artists seem to be > the ones who were rewarded for living on the edge, in more ways than one. > They would have been wasted words to which no one would have listened. > > The pressure to have to take on that cloak of marginalization as a young > person can be intense, especially if the narrative is: to be considered any > good, you have to shoot heroin and struggle with your addiction in order to > make good art. > > What a great and effective way to systematically eradicate all the young > artists in a society. Which controls the narrative as "making art is just > breaking plates and putting that on a canvas." It's very different in > Europe where artists are more valued members of society, and even loved, > and there are means of sponsoring them interwoven into the society in > different ways. Albeit not without flaws, but it's better than nothing. > > In the US there are diminishing contacts with art and aesthetic > experiences in public spaces. The incidents for contact go up if you live > in places like New York, but typically it's pretty barren. The only access > for art is in an iPod or a laptop, or a movie theater, or a book or an art > museum. > > All of these are mediated spaces that dictate our choices and how we are > to experience them. Consider this recent article by Cory Doctorow: > > http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/if-dishwashers-were-iphones > > Art as a part of everyday experience seems completely absent and > diminishes each day. Unless, of course, I want to interpret sitting in > commuter traffic as a kind of performance art of modern living. The only > other means for aesthetic experiences is to go out in nature, and that can > be difficult or at best inconvenient. > > Artists by their natures are sensitive and independent thinkers, likely > because of the way they sense to world. That is not to say that the rest of > us are insensitive or dependent thinkers, but that they are the first > identifiable group of "people like that." If we remove the sensitive types > and marginalize them, that is one way to remove some of those independent > thinkers from the mainstream, so they do not spread that heretical > contagion of independent thinking. > > It seems the next logical target if one were to have an objective to > incrementally remove independent thinkers from spreading contagion is the > university. So I would invite all of you to examine the narrative of > artists in society and their removal or their channeling into "safe spaces" > like 30 second videos, 3 minute songs, 30 minute sitcoms, 130 minute movies > (because we have to put them somewhere, we can't just kill them). Then > please consider if something similar is happening in the spaces of the > university and independent thinking. > > I would not at all be surprised to see there are parallels. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 15:10:19 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:10:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423869018786.96242@unm.edu> Hi Daniel, Maybe you would reflect back to us what is the reception of artists and the arts in everyday life in Europe, as you see it? as you live it? as you think about it? Thanks for your post, I hope it will not be your last! Let's keep talking! Kind regards, Annalisa On Friday, February 13, 2015 3:36 PM, Daniel Hyman wrote: As an artist who was purposely marginalized in my urban US school for independent thinking, and now finds himself having a much better time teaching in Eastern Europe, I find these comments hauntingly on-target. Thank you, Annalisa. All best, Daniel From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 15:27:12 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:27:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> Hi Huw, You know, I had the exact same experience at an Apple store when I asked how should I build a backup system that didn't involve putting my data in a cloud someplace owned by Apple? The fellow in the genius t-shirt told me he didn't know, but it sure was a good idea. I am under the distinct impression you are our resident technologist, and so I'm glad the dishwasher piece by Cory Doctorow had meaning for you. I've never heard the word "mookiness" in fact my autocorrect changed the word to "moodiness" just now! :) Talk about smoothing over! I'm guessing perhaps it is a word something like moodiness but with a "K" to sound like "crazy" or "cracked" ?? Please expand on this word for me? Anyhow, back to the matter at hand: I still am scratching my head to how this ties into the chapter on Humboldt? Have you a copy of this chapter available? As far as the absence of art being a fad, it's been a fad that has likely been around since the 60s when folk songs and their connection to protests were seen as dangerous thinking in operation. Or even farther back, from the Beat Generation, that first generation to deeply feel the nausea of post-war America. I welcome your take on this and how you might link this to Nissen's paper Life Could Be?, as our resident propellor head who offends Apple store managers, but is still welcomed by Starbucks baristas. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 3:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... On 13 February 2015 at 19:56, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Gee whiz, xmcars! my previous post had a lot of typos and I'm sorry for > that! Thinking is faster than writing sometimes. > > Huw, > > Help me make your connections? I'm not following. > > I'm not sure what you've posted has to do with aesthetic experiences, the > making of art, and the removal of these experiences and activities from > public life. But I hope you'll let me know. > Annalisa, You mentioned a lack of support for self-sustaining ventures too. Re the dishwasher-brainwasher piece, actually I think you can see an intent to transfer the mentality of vertical design (apple's market) into social mannerisms -- a way of speaking that conveys the smoothing away of wrinkles (through design, of course). I personally own some mac products and am pleased with them, but it wasn't that mookiness that I was buying into. When I needed a backup device -- I really have no interest or recollection of what name their given -- I walked into a local store, up to a guy who was free, who happened to be the store manager, and asked for one of their "remote back up kits". To a technical guy this would have been perfectly reasonable, but the person I spoke to looked pretty affronted. Smoothness vanished and instead I got waspish comments about where to find it. On the other hand, whenever I venture into a starbucks the staff never seem to mind when I ask for a medium (sized) coffee. Anyway, with respect to the absence of art. I suspect this is more about fashions in the similitude of art. Which I suppose is equally problematic if the fashion is to consider the similitude of art as art. Best, Huw > After posting my thinking about this last night, I remembered how while I > was in school, understanding from my own experiences, art was something > anyone could learn, like learning history or math or chemistry. Yet it is > marginalized even in the school. I don't think I was able to articulate > that freely that at the time, because the marginalized artists seem to be > the ones who were rewarded for living on the edge, in more ways than one. > They would have been wasted words to which no one would have listened. > > The pressure to have to take on that cloak of marginalization as a young > person can be intense, especially if the narrative is: to be considered any > good, you have to shoot heroin and struggle with your addiction in order to > make good art. > > What a great and effective way to systematically eradicate all the young > artists in a society. Which controls the narrative as "making art is just > breaking plates and putting that on a canvas." It's very different in > Europe where artists are more valued members of society, and even loved, > and there are means of sponsoring them interwoven into the society in > different ways. Albeit not without flaws, but it's better than nothing. > > In the US there are diminishing contacts with art and aesthetic > experiences in public spaces. The incidents for contact go up if you live > in places like New York, but typically it's pretty barren. The only access > for art is in an iPod or a laptop, or a movie theater, or a book or an art > museum. > > All of these are mediated spaces that dictate our choices and how we are > to experience them. Consider this recent article by Cory Doctorow: > > http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/if-dishwashers-were-iphones > > Art as a part of everyday experience seems completely absent and > diminishes each day. Unless, of course, I want to interpret sitting in > commuter traffic as a kind of performance art of modern living. The only > other means for aesthetic experiences is to go out in nature, and that can > be difficult or at best inconvenient. > > Artists by their natures are sensitive and independent thinkers, likely > because of the way they sense to world. That is not to say that the rest of > us are insensitive or dependent thinkers, but that they are the first > identifiable group of "people like that." If we remove the sensitive types > and marginalize them, that is one way to remove some of those independent > thinkers from the mainstream, so they do not spread that heretical > contagion of independent thinking. > > It seems the next logical target if one were to have an objective to > incrementally remove independent thinkers from spreading contagion is the > university. So I would invite all of you to examine the narrative of > artists in society and their removal or their channeling into "safe spaces" > like 30 second videos, 3 minute songs, 30 minute sitcoms, 130 minute movies > (because we have to put them somewhere, we can't just kill them). Then > please consider if something similar is happening in the spaces of the > university and independent thinking. > > I would not at all be surprised to see there are parallels. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 15:30:01 2015 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 01:30:01 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423869018786.96242@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423869018786.96242@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi, Annalisa - Being not that shy with my views, I will happily reflect on your richly simple questions, in fact sleep on them - it is past 1 AM in Kiev and the courtesy of a clearer answer than I can muster now, is due you. More, tomorrow, gladly. All best, thanks truly, Daniel On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > Maybe you would reflect back to us what is the reception of artists and > the arts in everyday life in Europe, as you see it? as you live it? as you > think about it? > > Thanks for your post, I hope it will not be your last! > > Let's keep talking! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > On Friday, February 13, 2015 3:36 PM, Daniel Hyman < > daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com> wrote: > > As an artist who was purposely marginalized in my urban US school for > independent thinking, and now finds himself having a much better time > teaching in Eastern Europe, I find these comments hauntingly on-target. > Thank you, Annalisa. > > All best, > > Daniel > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 15:34:35 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:34:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu>, , <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1423870474366.763@unm.edu> Hi again, I was wrong. First it was artists, then it was journalists, next will be universities, if it isn't already... Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 15:46:49 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 23:46:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> Message-ID: A bit like monkeys smooching, I figure. Its made up, by design. I figured I didn't need to find a real word. It reminds me of this little piece of art (In Paris with you): http://www.poetryarchive.org/poet/james-fenton It seems a very clean expression to me. Best, Huw On 13 February 2015 at 23:27, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Huw, > > You know, I had the exact same experience at an Apple store when I asked > how should I build a backup system that didn't involve putting my data in a > cloud someplace owned by Apple? The fellow in the genius t-shirt told me he > didn't know, but it sure was a good idea. > > I am under the distinct impression you are our resident technologist, and > so I'm glad the dishwasher piece by Cory Doctorow had meaning for you. > > I've never heard the word "mookiness" in fact my autocorrect changed the > word to "moodiness" just now! :) > > Talk about smoothing over! > > I'm guessing perhaps it is a word something like moodiness but with a "K" > to sound like "crazy" or "cracked" ?? Please expand on this word for me? > > Anyhow, back to the matter at hand: I still am scratching my head to how > this ties into the chapter on Humboldt? Have you a copy of this chapter > available? > > As far as the absence of art being a fad, it's been a fad that has likely > been around since the 60s when folk songs and their connection to protests > were seen as dangerous thinking in operation. Or even farther back, from > the Beat Generation, that first generation to deeply feel the nausea of > post-war America. > > I welcome your take on this and how you might link this to Nissen's paper > Life Could Be?, as our resident propellor head who offends Apple store > managers, but is still welcomed by Starbucks baristas. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 3:59 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... > > On 13 February 2015 at 19:56, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Gee whiz, xmcars! my previous post had a lot of typos and I'm sorry for > > that! Thinking is faster than writing sometimes. > > > > Huw, > > > > Help me make your connections? I'm not following. > > > > I'm not sure what you've posted has to do with aesthetic experiences, the > > making of art, and the removal of these experiences and activities from > > public life. But I hope you'll let me know. > > > > Annalisa, > > You mentioned a lack of support for self-sustaining ventures too. > > Re the dishwasher-brainwasher piece, actually I think you can see an intent > to transfer the mentality of vertical design (apple's market) into social > mannerisms -- a way of speaking that conveys the smoothing away of wrinkles > (through design, of course). > > I personally own some mac products and am pleased with them, but it wasn't > that mookiness that I was buying into. When I needed a backup device -- I > really have no interest or recollection of what name their given -- I > walked into a local store, up to a guy who was free, who happened to be the > store manager, and asked for one of their "remote back up kits". To a > technical guy this would have been perfectly reasonable, but the person I > spoke to looked pretty affronted. Smoothness vanished and instead I got > waspish comments about where to find it. On the other hand, whenever I > venture into a starbucks the staff never seem to mind when I ask for a > medium (sized) coffee. > > Anyway, with respect to the absence of art. I suspect this is more about > fashions in the similitude of art. Which I suppose is equally problematic > if the fashion is to consider the similitude of art as art. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > > After posting my thinking about this last night, I remembered how while I > > was in school, understanding from my own experiences, art was something > > anyone could learn, like learning history or math or chemistry. Yet it is > > marginalized even in the school. I don't think I was able to articulate > > that freely that at the time, because the marginalized artists seem to be > > the ones who were rewarded for living on the edge, in more ways than one. > > They would have been wasted words to which no one would have listened. > > > > The pressure to have to take on that cloak of marginalization as a young > > person can be intense, especially if the narrative is: to be considered > any > > good, you have to shoot heroin and struggle with your addiction in order > to > > make good art. > > > > What a great and effective way to systematically eradicate all the young > > artists in a society. Which controls the narrative as "making art is just > > breaking plates and putting that on a canvas." It's very different in > > Europe where artists are more valued members of society, and even loved, > > and there are means of sponsoring them interwoven into the society in > > different ways. Albeit not without flaws, but it's better than nothing. > > > > In the US there are diminishing contacts with art and aesthetic > > experiences in public spaces. The incidents for contact go up if you live > > in places like New York, but typically it's pretty barren. The only > access > > for art is in an iPod or a laptop, or a movie theater, or a book or an > art > > museum. > > > > All of these are mediated spaces that dictate our choices and how we are > > to experience them. Consider this recent article by Cory Doctorow: > > > > > http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/13/if-dishwashers-were-iphones > > > > Art as a part of everyday experience seems completely absent and > > diminishes each day. Unless, of course, I want to interpret sitting in > > commuter traffic as a kind of performance art of modern living. The only > > other means for aesthetic experiences is to go out in nature, and that > can > > be difficult or at best inconvenient. > > > > Artists by their natures are sensitive and independent thinkers, likely > > because of the way they sense to world. That is not to say that the rest > of > > us are insensitive or dependent thinkers, but that they are the first > > identifiable group of "people like that." If we remove the sensitive > types > > and marginalize them, that is one way to remove some of those independent > > thinkers from the mainstream, so they do not spread that heretical > > contagion of independent thinking. > > > > It seems the next logical target if one were to have an objective to > > incrementally remove independent thinkers from spreading contagion is the > > university. So I would invite all of you to examine the narrative of > > artists in society and their removal or their channeling into "safe > spaces" > > like 30 second videos, 3 minute songs, 30 minute sitcoms, 130 minute > movies > > (because we have to put them somewhere, we can't just kill them). Then > > please consider if something similar is happening in the spaces of the > > university and independent thinking. > > > > I would not at all be surprised to see there are parallels. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 16:00:40 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:00:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423872040311.90027@unm.edu> > It seems a very clean expression to me. Huw, The spaces of listservs can be quite imaginative! All talking and no doing. All doing and no being. All being and no talking. It's enough to make me dizzy. But what of Humboldt? Any chapter and verse there? Kind regards, Annalisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 16:10:12 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:10:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423872040311.90027@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> <1423872040311.90027@unm.edu> Message-ID: That'll be next week. Unless you find it online someplace. Huw On 14 February 2015 at 00:00, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > It seems a very clean expression to me. > > Huw, > > The spaces of listservs can be quite imaginative! > > All talking and no doing. All doing and no being. All being and no talking. > > It's enough to make me dizzy. > > But what of Humboldt? Any chapter and verse there? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 16:37:37 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:37:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> <1423872040311.90027@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423874256892.55502@unm.edu> Huw! Interestingly, there is an excerpt on Andy's website, which you likely knew. But it is an entire book, not a chapter. And enormously expensive? Oh well. Guess I won't be reading it. The connection will remain an enigma? apparently until next week. Kind regards, Annalisa ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Huw Lloyd Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 5:10 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... That'll be next week. Unless you find it online someplace. Huw On 14 February 2015 at 00:00, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > It seems a very clean expression to me. > > Huw, > > The spaces of listservs can be quite imaginative! > > All talking and no doing. All doing and no being. All being and no talking. > > It's enough to make me dizzy. > > But what of Humboldt? Any chapter and verse there? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Feb 13 17:35:09 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2015 17:35:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1423874256892.55502@unm.edu> References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> <1423872040311.90027@unm.edu> <1423874256892.55502@unm.edu> Message-ID: To return to Morten Nissen to explore the place of art "on" stage. Page A31 of the "Meeting Youth in Movement" article. morten is exploring the "performative "turn" in the social sciences [studies]. He asks, "What constitutes "making it"? as he is exploring "standards" or general notions of "making it". Remember he as a researcher is being paid to "evaluate" the performance activity. He further asks "How does performance achieve objectivity as a way to move "beyond" the stage and "beyond" performance? One particular answer he offers [which he suggests is valid in today's post-industrial societies - "lies in the sociomateriality of the stage *itself* [LP- the sociomateriality of the space] Resources, power, and recognition obviously concentrated in the The Crew [the stage] *itself *even as it *merely* staged social problems. The youth who might talk to a therapist *about *her lonliness could instead get new friends by participating in The Crew's staging of a performance *about* lonliness; rather than complain about being disenfranchised she might represent The Crew in negotiations with City officials an EU funded project for Youth Participation, or witness unskilled self-helpers ... giving interviews and lectures to respectfully listening social workers..... The stage *itself, as it were, goes far beyond the stage."* Morten then acknowledges that there are "limits" to this "kind" of answer. According to the performance literature [Turner, Goffman, Willis] reflexive performance is *generally a liminal* experience [beyond static standards and rules] that eventually gives way to a "normal state" [again standards and standardization] and the performance only marginally challenges the standards. *These *questions of how to go "beyond" standards when we require being within standards to exist within institutions which enact standards brings us back to "art" and "work" and there relation as they play out in our sense and meaning. It also is another instance of using the metaphor of "place" [as "stage".] within which we express ourselves in performances. Larry On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Huw! > > Interestingly, there is an excerpt on Andy's website, which you likely > knew. > > But it is an entire book, not a chapter. And enormously expensive? > > Oh well. Guess I won't be reading it. The connection will remain an > enigma? apparently until next week. > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 5:10 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... > > That'll be next week. Unless you find it online someplace. > > Huw > > > On 14 February 2015 at 00:00, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > It seems a very clean expression to me. > > > > Huw, > > > > The spaces of listservs can be quite imaginative! > > > > All talking and no doing. All doing and no being. All being and no > talking. > > > > It's enough to make me dizzy. > > > > But what of Humboldt? Any chapter and verse there? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 21:46:17 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 05:46:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <1423794337609.41381@unm.edu> <1423857359590.94983@unm.edu> <1423870031647.9471@unm.edu> <1423872040311.90027@unm.edu> <1423874256892.55502@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423892776805.34977@unm.edu> Larry. I did not read the other Nissen article, so I'm just responding off the cuff to your email. This thread here was responding to the other (article 1: Could Life Be?) and I turned the thread into considering narratives that explain aesthetic experience in everyday life. Specifically, I am examining how artists are correlated to marginalized people (such as drug addicts) and how it is that those sorts of narratives claim that making art is therapeutic, as if art is only therapeutic and serves no other purpose than to keep marginalized people busy from hurting themselves. But to respond to what you wrote (without having read the article): Another way to look at theater is how everyone these days is being turned into actors, but not if one thinks that being an actor is being a celebrity, the kitsch version of an actor. (Think of the recent movie Birdman). We have our branded selves, soundbyted, and packaged to render in elevator tests. Which is what actors must do to find work. They must audition constantly and compete fiercely for only a few available roles. We must tap dance ourselves into our next job. Another thought is that being an actor isn't actually living life but acting as if living a life. This removal of actually living life meaningfully is a little irksome to me. Eventually one comes to the point of understanding that there is no dress rehearsal anymore and one must live the life one wants to live. If that isn't possible, then it's about finding help or giving help to make that happen. Isn't that what being a social being is all about? This is how I see the ZPD (HENRY! I'm still reading that article, OK??), as acting out aspects of life with help of more-capable others until such time one can do it on one's own independently, when it isn't acting anymore. At which time, being more capable, I would in turn help others in need who are less capable, at least one would think. I suppose I'll have to read that other Nissen article (article 2 being: Meeting Youth in Movement and On Neutral Ground). Currently I'm thinking about an interesting one by Losonsky, but I'll start a new thread for that? Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 13 22:43:56 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 06:43:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The systemic perspective vs the use perspective vs the knowledge perspective Message-ID: <1423896235481.5904@unm.edu> ?Hi, In my snuffling about on Losonksy, I found this interesting proceeding from 2009, "What Can We Learn From Bad Arguments?" This article is very well written, nice and clear. Apparently Losonksy embraces the historical development of language, but as a series of bad arguments that are later corrected, which later are discovered as bad arguments that are later corrected, and so on, while keeping the dualistic positions of system and use perspectives of language intact. He uses the dialectic between the two positions as a pedagogical tool (which we learn at the end of the paper). What he misses, however, is the notion of the social as a location for all the things that go missing in these two positions on language, the systemic and the use arguments. That is, how we come to know these arguments. What I mean is this: A structure of a language can only exist from practicing the language and conventions forming over time. This might be classified as Historical as in Capital H. The more formal aspects of language over longer periods of time. A use of a language can only exist from practicing the language and conventions forming over time. ?This might be classified as historical as in Lower-case h. The more ephemeral aspects of language over spontaneous periods of time. None of these perspectives and what they offer us can occur at all without humans being in the world interacting with one another. They cannot exist without us there, knowing them and practicing and practicing our languages, in the sense I am right now practicing the language each time I make a post here on XMCA, for example. That is why I was baffled at his rejection of the third perspective, as indicated by Robert Stainton, called the knowledge perspective. Losonsky states: "In Linguistic Turns I ignored this perspective. I believe that this perspective is a subordinate issue that divides along lines that divide the system and use perspectives. On the one side is systematic knowledge of language and on the other side is practical knowledge, or knowhow, that is used in coming to know what? particular speakers say on a given occasion." (p 1-2) How can Losonsky even write that sentence if there is no knowledge perspective? What he doesn't see (which is clear as day to me) is that the knowledge perspective requires both system and use perspectives to function, and can only arise in a social setting of learning, specifically the ZPD!? Neither side wins because neither side considers the other side in a socio-historical reality. Is that fair to say? (Culture is also in there, but for simplicity I am setting that to the side, because by setting the social aside, he loses culture too). The knowledge perspective seems to me to say: We can only use the language that we know. Furthermore, we come to know that language from learning it from a capable other, who in turn learned from a capable other, and so on through an historical environment (or by using language with a capable peer in spontaneous circumstances of speech opportunities arising in any given moment). For me, this also involves the given and the new and how these combine to create meaning in a particular environment in space and time, i.e., meaning arising in a context. I will be ambulating over to Robert Stainton's work at some point... anyone care to join me? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Losonsky_What Can We Learn From Bad Arguments_2009.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 190590 bytes Desc: Losonsky_What Can We Learn From Bad Arguments_2009.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150214/df927ac9/attachment.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 14 00:30:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:30:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The systemic perspective vs the use perspective vs the knowledge perspective In-Reply-To: <1423896235481.5904@unm.edu> References: <1423896235481.5904@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, I quickly read the Losonsky article and it makes clear his approach that language by its nature divides dialectically into system and use. However, there is an approach to the "philosophy of language" that offers a "genealogical approach". Franson Manjali writes from this perspective and makes a case that the "oscillating" movement of the emergence of Modern Linguistics [its history] is a facet or face of the Eurocentric emergence of Colonialism and Nationalism and the search for standards and rules that showed the European languages as superior. Franson suggests to understand the philosophy of modern language theory is to understand the development of language studies as the companion of empire as the construction of a "system of rule". THIS history of language traces how the emergence of "linguistic science" was a facet of the emergence of nation states. Three examples are offered. 1] the creation of "standards" [unified fields of exchange] below Latin and above the vernaculars. 2] providing a new fixity to language which helped to build the "image" of antiquity so central to the idea of "nation". 3] the creation of new "languages" and disciplines of "power". The systematizing of languages into "complex" and "primitive" was a result of this Eurocentric movement and approach to language. I do not have a background in this area but I wonder if the understanding that there are two distinct "themes" in language studies might not be understood as version ignoring the power relationships enacted when approaching the history of languages "as an object of study" which can be traced to a particular situated historical event when Eurocentric power was emerging as dominant. This is an approach that views "ethics" as central to the study of language. Larry On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > ?Hi, > > > In my snuffling about on Losonksy, I found this interesting proceeding > from 2009, "What Can We Learn From Bad Arguments?" This article is very > well written, nice and clear. > > > Apparently Losonksy embraces the historical development of language, but > as a series of bad arguments that are later corrected, which later are > discovered as bad arguments that are later corrected, and so on, while > keeping the dualistic positions of system and use perspectives of language > intact. He uses the dialectic between the two positions as a pedagogical > tool (which we learn at the end of the paper). > > > What he misses, however, is the notion of the social as a location for all > the things that go missing in these two positions on language, the systemic > and the use arguments. That is, how we come to know these arguments. > > > What I mean is this: > > > A structure of a language can only exist from practicing the language and > conventions forming over time. This might be classified as Historical as in > Capital H. The more formal aspects of language over longer periods of time. > > > A use of a language can only exist from practicing the language and > conventions forming over time. ?This might be classified as historical as > in Lower-case h. The more ephemeral aspects of language over spontaneous > periods of time. > > > None of these perspectives and what they offer us can occur at all without > humans being in the world interacting with one another. They cannot exist > without us there, knowing them and practicing and practicing our languages, > in the sense I am right now practicing the language each time I make a post > here on XMCA, for example. > > > That is why I was baffled at his rejection of the third perspective, as > indicated by Robert Stainton, called the knowledge perspective. Losonsky > states: > > > "In Linguistic Turns I ignored this perspective. I believe that this > perspective is a subordinate issue that divides along lines that divide the > system and use perspectives. On the one side is systematic knowledge of > language and on the other side is practical knowledge, or knowhow, that is > used in coming to know what? particular speakers say on a given occasion." > (p 1-2) > > > How can Losonsky even write that sentence if there is no knowledge > perspective? > > > What he doesn't see (which is clear as day to me) is that the knowledge > perspective requires both system and use perspectives to function, and can > only arise in a social setting of learning, specifically the ZPD!? > > > Neither side wins because neither side considers the other side in a > socio-historical reality. Is that fair to say? (Culture is also in there, > but for simplicity I am setting that to the side, because by setting the > social aside, he loses culture too). > > > The knowledge perspective seems to me to say: We can only use the language > that we know. Furthermore, we come to know that language from learning it > from a capable other, who in turn learned from a capable other, and so on > through an historical environment (or by using language with a capable peer > in spontaneous circumstances of speech opportunities arising in any given > moment). > > > For me, this also involves the given and the new and how these combine to > create meaning in a particular environment in space and time, i.e., meaning > arising in a context. > > > I will be ambulating over to Robert Stainton's work at some point... > anyone care to join me? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 14 10:36:40 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:36:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype Message-ID: For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like to invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of access] Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, the deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term (2010) the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart despair [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a counterintuitive radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions of blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that it still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in Bloch's sense." I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently contestable open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's sense. I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page A38 that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical instantiation. He says, "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of proximal > development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space > metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- > incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS methods. The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as Prototypical Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning and relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope endlessly postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of "could be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" enacting and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted with "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. Larry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FEBRUARY 10 2015 NISSEN MORTEN Meeting Youth in Movement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 619307 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150214/5fbb5150/attachment-0001.pdf From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Feb 14 10:58:27 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 10:58:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, I noticed this too. Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc in Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological aura. Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." Good enough for me. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like to > invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his > article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of access] > > Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, > > "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, the > deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and > perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of > collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... > makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term (2010) > the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart despair > [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a counterintuitive > radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions of > blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that it > still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in Bloch's > sense." > > I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a > religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently contestable > open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple > meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's sense. > > I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page A38 > that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical > instantiation. He says, > > "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of proximal >> development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space >> metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- >> incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " > > > The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten > makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as > concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes > carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS methods. > The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as Prototypical > Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and > collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning and > relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. > Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope endlessly > postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of "could > be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. > > I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" > beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" enacting > and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted with > "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. > > Larry > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 14 12:26:09 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 12:26:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Helena, This "simple" suggestion "transposes" us into a radically different "constellation". I have an intuition that shifting from [object, purpose, goal, mission] towards hope as an "approach" will cause different "kinds" of objects to appear. Moving from "must" to "could be" seems to be what may be [possibly, potentially] emerging as an alternative "approach" . As you say less technical, mechanical and more humanistic. I hope others will participate in the direction you have opened with this "simple" move. Yes, fully acknowledging the reality also of despair and dread but the "answer" is hope. Morten also mentioned that we live in a time where the bi-polar" personality is the "standard". A hundred years ago the norm was "melancholy". We need a way of "answering" the despair and dread. I suggest it does require an imaginal moment also to enter the "could be" but "not yet". The answer "could be ..... hope" On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Larry, I noticed this too. > > Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc in > Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. > > Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to > spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological aura. > > Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, > so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." > > Good enough for me. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like to > > invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his > > article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of > access] > > > > Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, > > > > "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, > the > > deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and > > perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of > > collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... > > makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term (2010) > > the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart > despair > > [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a > counterintuitive > > radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions of > > blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that it > > still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in Bloch's > > sense." > > > > I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a > > religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently contestable > > open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple > > meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's > sense. > > > > I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page A38 > > that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical > > instantiation. He says, > > > > "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of > proximal > >> development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space > >> metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- > >> incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " > > > > > > The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten > > makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as > > concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes > > carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS > methods. > > The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as Prototypical > > Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and > > collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning and > > relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. > > Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope > endlessly > > postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of "could > > be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. > > > > I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" > > beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" > enacting > > and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted > with > > "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. > > > > Larry > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 14 14:26:09 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 22:26:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The systemic perspective vs the use perspective vs the knowledge perspective In-Reply-To: References: <1423896235481.5904@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1423952769147.3203@unm.edu> Hi Larry, Have you a text you recommend by Manjali? My reference to systemic was not to posit the Vienna Circle's view, say, as defining THE systemic structure, but that in the course of any language over time there are structures created that are then inherited over an historical period that extends many lifetimes; I don't think that this strays from a notion of a genealogy, but maybe I am wrong. But then at the same time the use of the language can alter the language incrementally, and so this would explain the shift of the language that we observe in the differences between Elizabethan English of Shakespearian plays, and today's American English of television broadcasters, which also doesn't stray from a notion of genealogy, I don't think. Manjali sounds to be listening to Foucault, is that right? The problem that you outline of the dialectic view of language, as represented by Losonsky, has an appearance of dictating structures a priori than learning what they are; i.e., prescription over description. This is why I agree with you about the complex/primitive designations and how this is problematic. I don't think my suggestion supposes primitive and complex designations of language structures, just that there are structures present in a given language, and this structure has basic apparent traits, but over time these traits may shift because of the use of the language in the present moment. If language is a tool, and a tool is a kind of technology, then language will develop in a similar way to technology development (although perhaps it is better to say that they share family resemblances in their processes of development, as I don't mean to privilege one over the other). There is no dispute here that power relations are woven into these dynamics. They certainly are! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 14 14:59:08 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 14:59:08 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The systemic perspective vs the use perspective vs the knowledge perspective In-Reply-To: <1423952769147.3203@unm.edu> References: <1423896235481.5904@unm.edu> <1423952769147.3203@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, I am not sure of copyright but will send a copy to individuals who email me at lpscholar2@gmail.com I find Franson offers a genealogical way of approaching the history of modern linguisticsthat is calling us to goes beyond the assumption that the academic disciplines as currently constituted can answer our questions. Larry On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Have you a text you recommend by Manjali? > > My reference to systemic was not to posit the Vienna Circle's view, say, > as defining THE systemic structure, but that in the course of any language > over time there are structures created that are then inherited over an > historical period that extends many lifetimes; I don't think that this > strays from a notion of a genealogy, but maybe I am wrong. > > But then at the same time the use of the language can alter the language > incrementally, and so this would explain the shift of the language that we > observe in the differences between Elizabethan English of Shakespearian > plays, and today's American English of television broadcasters, which also > doesn't stray from a notion of genealogy, I don't think. > > Manjali sounds to be listening to Foucault, is that right? > > The problem that you outline of the dialectic view of language, as > represented by Losonsky, has an appearance of dictating structures a priori > than learning what they are; i.e., prescription over description. This is > why I agree with you about the complex/primitive designations and how this > is problematic. > > I don't think my suggestion supposes primitive and complex designations of > language structures, just that there are structures present in a given > language, and this structure has basic apparent traits, but over time these > traits may shift because of the use of the language in the present moment. > > If language is a tool, and a tool is a kind of technology, then language > will develop in a similar way to technology development (although perhaps > it is better to say that they share family resemblances in their processes > of development, as I don't mean to privilege one over the other). > > There is no dispute here that power relations are woven into these > dynamics. They certainly are! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 14 15:10:57 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 16:10:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53B8775E-53AE-4C32-AC23-80E37C63D33A@gmail.com> Happy Valentines To All, Larry, Annalisa, Huw, Helena especially have heartened me. Let me start by thanking Helena for a copy of her book, What Did You Learn at Work Today: The Forbidden Lessons of Labot Education. I am reading it slow and easy and like it a lot. I like Helena?s cloze procedure with ?hope" (from Mattingly and Bloch via Larry) and ?project" (from Andy), filling in the third space so to speak. Very ZPD, with leading formations. I have a new construal of prototype now, thanks to Larry?s proffers of ?real? metaphor and ?concrete universal?, with this possibility (got to work on it, get grounded on it): thinking with prototypes taps into the fractal nature of mind. Resonances at different scales of mind and matter are entanglements at these different scales. Embodied and rhythmic. That resonance is the hopeful response to despair. In THAT third space. We?re minding the gap, gang. I was just wondering how many of you out there are into Valentine?s Day? And shout out to Annalisa for plugging away at Chaiklin on ZPD, great article, David Kellogg turned me on to Chaiklin, so shout out to David Ke. And yes, to you, Annalisa, am totally interested in Stainton, based on the Losonsky article, but I need more time to read Losonsky. So slow and easy. Otherwise I?ll just be faking it. Ha! Here we?re into Nissen. The political is personal. Yikes! I really like Larry?s reference to Manjali: 'Franson suggests to understand the philosophy of modern language theory is to understand the development of language studies as the companion of empire as the construction of a "system of rule". THIS history of language traces how the emergence of "linguistic science" was a facet of the emergence of nation states. Three examples are offered. 1] the creation of "standards" [unified fields of exchange] below Latin and above the vernaculars. 2] providing a new fixity to language which helped to build the "image" of antiquity so central to the idea of "nation". 3] the creation of new "languages" and disciplines of "power?.? This resonates for me with the idea of L2 learning as culture shock, a first language/culture already being in place and in time. Disrythmic. And it seems to me that first language/culture development seems to have its share of such perturbations. I am interested in the place of repair in development in general, but especially in second language. And, Huw, I would be interested in a few more words from you on ?basic resources? and ?constructivist? when you are talking about Chomsky?s April 4 (2014) interview with Google. You?d be a real pal. This has been a long Valentines Day message. I see that Larry just posted. Nice. All about hope. I wonder if I?m a hybrid melancholic and bipolar: :(( / :)) On Feb 14, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > Larry, I noticed this too. > > Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc in Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. > > Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological aura. > > Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." > > Good enough for me. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like to >> invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his >> article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of access] >> >> Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, >> >> "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, the >> deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and >> perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of >> collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... >> makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term (2010) >> the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart despair >> [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a counterintuitive >> radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions of >> blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that it >> still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in Bloch's >> sense." >> >> I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a >> religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently contestable >> open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple >> meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's sense. >> >> I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page A38 >> that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical >> instantiation. He says, >> >> "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of proximal >>> development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space >>> metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- >>> incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " >> >> >> The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten >> makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as >> concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes >> carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS methods. >> The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as Prototypical >> Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and >> collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning and >> relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. >> Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope endlessly >> postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of "could >> be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. >> >> I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" >> beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" enacting >> and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted with >> "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. >> >> Larry >> > > From mn@edu.au.dk Sat Feb 14 22:00:15 2015 From: mn@edu.au.dk (Morten Nissen) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 06:00:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... Message-ID: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> Dear xmca Wow! So much to engage with here! I'm in the middle of a conference in Barcelona, so for now ust briefly a few comments. First, for me it is an important point that I did not present the "aesthetic documentation" (the video etc.) as a method for treating drug addiction. On the contrary, the point is to go beyond that whole problematic, that set of standards. We can see in this discussion that when Berrin is framed as an addict, even the whole concept of art is stigmatized. Second, I am certain that the professionals and their young clients did not intentionally copy or mimic an already existing video - but it is interesting that the style and form of the genre seems to be inadvertedly reproduced - to some extent. Finally, there is a set of points about sense and meaning. I recount them briefly in my chapter, but it is long story which I unfold in my 2012 book. Basically, common sense is the immediate sense common to a collective, its ideological form; meaning is the objectification which transforms and overcomes that common sense. These are dialectical moments. (There is no such thing as a simple reproduction; even when a Madonna video seems to be copied, something else is produced). Finally, I wouldn't want to substitute hope for plans and goals. The concept of hope is at a different level, to do with why we would want to engage in an activity with certain (or not so certain) goals. Andy's use of "project" is also useful, if we do not think of it in too rationalistic terms. I used "hope" also to recommend taking up Ernst Bloch's work. I look forward to returning more deeply. Now back to "affectivity, embodiment and politics" in Barcelona... Best, Morten Morten Nissen PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor Department of Education Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ [Beskrivelse: cid:image004.png@01CC31B2.EB3C2970] From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Feb 15 08:13:34 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 08:13:34 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> References: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> Message-ID: Morten, I am writing to acknowledge how relevant I find your work. I come to your work as an elementary school counselor working in schools and your approach to ethical dilemmas and standards and power [as force] is close to how I experience school standards. You ended your paper referring to "Derrida" [the could be ...] and "blues hope". In this post you say: The concept of hope is at a different level, to do with why we would want to engage in an activity with certain (or not so certain) goals. Andy's use of "project" is also useful, if we do not think of it in too rationalistic terms. I used "hope" also to recommend taking up Ernst Bloch's work. The metaphor of "layers" and Helena's cloze technique of substituting "hope" for "plans" The question of the "relation" between "the layers" is an open question. Rather than "substitution" if the relation is one of "oscillation" [hope-plans-hope] in a non-linear Mobius strip would this clarify both "hope" and "plans"? The relation of movement [approaches] as both hope and plans but reflecting deeply on the level of hope. Maybe Ernst Bloch will offer guidance. The question of "why" IS AN ETHICAL QUESTION which I read as a question at the center of your work. This "level" seems to be a "founding" moment in the movements and approaches we decide to embark on On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Morten Nissen wrote: > Dear xmca > Wow! So much to engage with here! > I'm in the middle of a conference in Barcelona, so for now ust briefly a > few comments. > First, for me it is an important point that I did not present the > "aesthetic documentation" (the video etc.) as a method for treating drug > addiction. On the contrary, the point is to go beyond that whole > problematic, that set of standards. We can see in this discussion that when > Berrin is framed as an addict, even the whole concept of art is stigmatized. > Second, I am certain that the professionals and their young clients did > not intentionally copy or mimic an already existing video - but it is > interesting that the style and form of the genre seems to be inadvertedly > reproduced - to some extent. > Finally, there is a set of points about sense and meaning. I recount them > briefly in my chapter, but it is long story which I unfold in my 2012 book. > Basically, common sense is the immediate sense common to a collective, its > ideological form; meaning is the objectification which transforms and > overcomes that common sense. These are dialectical moments. (There is no > such thing as a simple reproduction; even when a Madonna video seems to be > copied, something else is produced). > Finally, I wouldn't want to substitute hope for plans and goals. The > concept of hope is at a different level, to do with why we would want to > engage in an activity with certain (or not so certain) goals. Andy's use of > "project" is also useful, if we do not think of it in too rationalistic > terms. I used "hope" also to recommend taking up Ernst Bloch's work. > I look forward to returning more deeply. Now back to "affectivity, > embodiment and politics" in Barcelona... > Best, > Morten > > Morten Nissen > PhD, Dr. Psych. > Professor > Department of Education > Aarhus University > Tuborgvej 164 > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > www.edu.au.dk/ www.edu.au.dk/> > [Beskrivelse: cid:image004.png@01CC31B2.EB3C2970] > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 15 08:55:05 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 08:55:05 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> Message-ID: For those of you who have not encountered it, here is a copy of Bloch's "The Principle of Hope." You can find various discussions of this book and these ideas via google. mike On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Morten, > I am writing to acknowledge how relevant I find your work. I come to your > work as an elementary school counselor working in schools and your approach > to ethical dilemmas and standards and power [as force] is close to how I > experience school standards. > > You ended your paper referring to "Derrida" [the could be ...] and "blues > hope". > In this post you say: > > The concept of hope is at a different level, to do with why we would want > to engage in an activity with certain (or not so certain) goals. Andy's use > of "project" is also useful, if we do not think of it in too rationalistic > terms. I used "hope" also to recommend taking up Ernst Bloch's work. > > The metaphor of "layers" and Helena's cloze technique of substituting > "hope" for "plans" > > The question of the "relation" between "the layers" is an open question. > Rather than "substitution" if the relation is one of "oscillation" > [hope-plans-hope] in a non-linear Mobius strip would this clarify both > "hope" and "plans"? > > The relation of movement [approaches] as both hope and plans but reflecting > deeply on the level of hope. Maybe Ernst Bloch will offer guidance. > > The question of "why" IS AN ETHICAL QUESTION which I read as a question at > the center of your work. This "level" seems to be a "founding" moment in > the movements and approaches we decide to embark on > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Morten Nissen wrote: > > > Dear xmca > > Wow! So much to engage with here! > > I'm in the middle of a conference in Barcelona, so for now ust briefly a > > few comments. > > First, for me it is an important point that I did not present the > > "aesthetic documentation" (the video etc.) as a method for treating drug > > addiction. On the contrary, the point is to go beyond that whole > > problematic, that set of standards. We can see in this discussion that > when > > Berrin is framed as an addict, even the whole concept of art is > stigmatized. > > Second, I am certain that the professionals and their young clients did > > not intentionally copy or mimic an already existing video - but it is > > interesting that the style and form of the genre seems to be inadvertedly > > reproduced - to some extent. > > Finally, there is a set of points about sense and meaning. I recount them > > briefly in my chapter, but it is long story which I unfold in my 2012 > book. > > Basically, common sense is the immediate sense common to a collective, > its > > ideological form; meaning is the objectification which transforms and > > overcomes that common sense. These are dialectical moments. (There is no > > such thing as a simple reproduction; even when a Madonna video seems to > be > > copied, something else is produced). > > Finally, I wouldn't want to substitute hope for plans and goals. The > > concept of hope is at a different level, to do with why we would want to > > engage in an activity with certain (or not so certain) goals. Andy's use > of > > "project" is also useful, if we do not think of it in too rationalistic > > terms. I used "hope" also to recommend taking up Ernst Bloch's work. > > I look forward to returning more deeply. Now back to "affectivity, > > embodiment and politics" in Barcelona... > > Best, > > Morten > > > > Morten Nissen > > PhD, Dr. Psych. > > Professor > > Department of Education > > Aarhus University > > Tuborgvej 164 > > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > > www.edu.au.dk/ > www.edu.au.dk/> > > [Beskrivelse: cid:image004.png@01CC31B2.EB3C2970] > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bloch - The Principle of Hope vol1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 8405822 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150215/9b5ee3ed/attachment-0001.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 15 14:11:48 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:11:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> , Message-ID: <1424038311128.4573@unm.edu> mike! I am truly impressed to know that the Principle of Hope is over 600 pages long! AND I see this is only Vol 1!!! Is the rest available as well? I am guessing there is a Vol 2, but it gave me pause to consider that The Principle of Hope could entail an infinite number of Volumes. :) I realize I can google for this as you indicated, but I wondered if there is in your mind a paper or chapter that provides an overview of this magnificent work? I just wondered if you could guide in a faster connection of the dots? Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 15 14:32:31 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 14:32:31 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: <1424038311128.4573@unm.edu> References: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> <1424038311128.4573@unm.edu> Message-ID: As you like, Annalisa. I was simply trying to clue people to the work of Bloch to whom Morten refers. mike On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > mike! > > I am truly impressed to know that the Principle of Hope is over 600 pages > long! AND I see this is only Vol 1!!! > > Is the rest available as well? I am guessing there is a Vol 2, but it gave > me pause to consider that The Principle of Hope could entail an infinite > number of Volumes. :) > > I realize I can google for this as you indicated, but I wondered if there > is in your mind a paper or chapter that provides an overview of this > magnificent work? I just wondered if you could guide in a faster connection > of the dots? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 15 14:38:23 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:38:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> <1424038311128.4573@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1424039901724.14644@unm.edu> Yes, mike! I did get that and I was just curious if you could recommend was an easier access, for the context of this thread, of a paper that orients a novice, such as myself, which would allow me an entry into Bloch's work? Is there one you recommend? If I were to read 600 pages on the screen it would likely take me a few months. So I was asking for a little map into the text, if that is OK. Kind regards, Annalisa From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sun Feb 15 17:02:20 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:02:20 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Elaborations on Nissen's Could Life Be... In-Reply-To: References: <89BBBDB8-7441-48BF-B430-2DBA4DA9753B@edu.au.dk> <1424038311128.4573@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I appreciate the emphasis on hope in this conversational thread. Thanks for the PDF of Bloch's book Mike! Annalisa, there is a book that we published in our series with Sense that shows Bloch and Fromm's work in the context of the Frankfurt School etc. If anyone on the list would like to review this book send me your address and I will mail you a copy. For a brief intro....... https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/imagination-and-praxis/erich-fromms-revolutionary-hope/ *Robert* On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 5:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > As you like, Annalisa. I was simply trying to clue people to the work of > Bloch to whom > Morten refers. > mike > > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > mike! > > > > I am truly impressed to know that the Principle of Hope is over 600 pages > > long! AND I see this is only Vol 1!!! > > > > Is the rest available as well? I am guessing there is a Vol 2, but it > gave > > me pause to consider that The Principle of Hope could entail an infinite > > number of Volumes. :) > > > > I realize I can google for this as you indicated, but I wondered if there > > is in your mind a paper or chapter that provides an overview of this > > magnificent work? I just wondered if you could guide in a faster > connection > > of the dots? > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 15 18:54:33 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 02:54:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Twenty-seventh Man Message-ID: <1424055273007.36770@unm.edu> Hi fellow XMCArs! I just learned of this play, The Twenty-seventh Man, by Nathan Englander, which is playing at the Old Globe in San Diego and is enjoying an extended run through Mar 22. This play arriving to my awareness seems to have relevancy to what we have been discussing on the list as of late... Consider: aesthetics, sense and meaning, Stalinism, hope, intellectual pursuit, ethics, the life of the heart in creativity and learning, ZPDs, and social justice against the odds, just to name a few!!! Here is a description of the current production: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/feb/13/old-globe-theatre-twenty-seventh-man-preview/ Here is a review of the play in Variety when it premiered in New York http://variety.com/2012/legit/reviews/the-twenty-seventh-man-1117948796/ I wouldn't mind to get my hands on the original short story, which appears in his book, "For the Relief of Unbearable Urges." I was able to find the beginning of the story on google books here: https://books.google.com/books?id=zc1PY7TScHIC&pg=PT3&dq=For+the+Relief+of+Unbearable+Urges&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false? There so many themes! Themes I sense xmcars care deeply about! Kind regards, Annalisa From mn@edu.au.dk Sun Feb 15 22:29:22 2015 From: mn@edu.au.dk (Morten Nissen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 06:29:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Twenty-seventh Man In-Reply-To: <1424055273007.36770@unm.edu> References: <1424055273007.36770@unm.edu> Message-ID: Dear xmca I do think that all 3 volumes of Bloch's book have now been translated into English. And I don't know of any easy way in. Perhaps SCHAT scholars can appreciate especially the chapters where he discusses Marx' theses on Feuerbach. But Bloch's form of writing is very special, poetic, and demanding. Best, Morten Morten Nissen PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor Department of Education Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ [Beskrivelse: cid:image004.png@01CC31B2.EB3C2970] Den 16/02/2015 kl. 03.55 skrev Annalisa Aguilar >: Hi fellow XMCArs! I just learned of this play, The Twenty-seventh Man, by Nathan Englander, which is playing at the Old Globe in San Diego and is enjoying an extended run through Mar 22. This play arriving to my awareness seems to have relevancy to what we have been discussing on the list as of late... Consider: aesthetics, sense and meaning, Stalinism, hope, intellectual pursuit, ethics, the life of the heart in creativity and learning, ZPDs, and social justice against the odds, just to name a few!!! Here is a description of the current production: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/feb/13/old-globe-theatre-twenty-seventh-man-preview/ Here is a review of the play in Variety when it premiered in New York http://variety.com/2012/legit/reviews/the-twenty-seventh-man-1117948796/ I wouldn't mind to get my hands on the original short story, which appears in his book, "For the Relief of Unbearable Urges." I was able to find the beginning of the story on google books here: https://books.google.com/books?id=zc1PY7TScHIC&pg=PT3&dq=For+the+Relief+of+Unbearable+Urges&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false? There so many themes! Themes I sense xmcars care deeply about! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Feb 16 07:51:03 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 07:51:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I have read the introduction of Bloch's book on hope. [PAGE xxviii] has a fascinating exploration as both the objective factor and the subjective factor developing each within the other to form a new possibility which is "not yet" formed. I find this way of understanding parelling Vygotsky's notion of the "unity" of word meaning as the germ cell. Can a case be made that at the micro level of "words" devoid of meaning are empty shells [dead forms] AND the micro level of "meaning" without thought cannot go "inner" That the same [possibly universal] human process applies to human being/becoming. Subjectivity without the objective factor is meaningless subjectivity but objectivity without the subjective factor is "dead" or lacks the "force" [power] of life-vitality and becomes "merely" objects. Human being therefor is a "unity" [a new form] that may become more or less "crystallized" human being which participates within the "gaps" which "exist" between the crystallized "unity" of the "self" and the "not yet" possibility. Can "human being" as a "unity" [subjective and objective factors which BOTH develop begin from different "roots" become, through development a new synthesis that is an "expansion" beyond either mere preconscious subjectivity [or a term that may reflect an embryo that must incubate] and also an expansion beyond "mere" preconscious objectivity [the always already thrown crystallized facet of objective form. To separate this "unity" of human being is "as if" separating the "unity" of word meaning into "words" and "meanings" destroying the unity and leaving merely "generalization" that looses the specificity of "concrete universals" [prototypes] [situated events]. Bloch is offering us a personal way of making "sense" [Bahktin's themes], emerging within German Idealism [Kant, etc] AND German Romanticism. Just speculating, going out on limb, playing with figurative worlds. Bloch seems to invite a close reading of his 3 volumes containing over 1000 pages. [17 volumes in total he wrote] I was fascinated to know who he was friends with [Simmel, Lukacs, Benjamin, Adorno] but incarnating "hope" The word incarnating seems appropriate to the way Bloch approached the unity of the human being and human nature. His personal autobiography through Europe and America also seems relevant Larry On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Larry, I noticed this too. > > Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc in > Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. > > Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to > spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological aura. > > Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, > so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." > > Good enough for me. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like to > > invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his > > article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of > access] > > > > Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, > > > > "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, > the > > deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and > > perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of > > collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... > > makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term (2010) > > the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart > despair > > [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a > counterintuitive > > radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions of > > blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that it > > still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in Bloch's > > sense." > > > > I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a > > religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently contestable > > open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple > > meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's > sense. > > > > I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page A38 > > that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical > > instantiation. He says, > > > > "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of > proximal > >> development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space > >> metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- > >> incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " > > > > > > The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten > > makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as > > concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes > > carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS > methods. > > The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as Prototypical > > Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and > > collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning and > > relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. > > Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope > endlessly > > postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of "could > > be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. > > > > I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" > > beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" > enacting > > and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted > with > > "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. > > > > Larry > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Feb 16 08:27:42 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:27:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also read only the preface as a kind of summary, and skimmed, Larry. Perhaps Morten will know of a particular essay that can provide the sort of "short form" that Annalisa was asking for. I do not know of such a summary by Bloch. 600 pages is a lot, never mind 1000. Others have provided synopses and the topic has apparently been rather widely debated. I am dealing with a number of simultaneous deadlines, one of which is the next issue of MCA so cannot be of much help here for now. mike On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > I have read the introduction of Bloch's book on hope. > [PAGE xxviii] has a fascinating exploration as both the objective factor > and the subjective factor developing each within the other to form a new > possibility which is "not yet" formed. > > I find this way of understanding parelling Vygotsky's notion of the "unity" > of word meaning as the germ cell. Can a case be made that at the micro > level of "words" devoid of meaning are empty shells [dead forms] AND the > micro level of "meaning" without thought cannot go "inner" > That the same [possibly universal] human process applies to human > being/becoming. > > Subjectivity without the objective factor is meaningless subjectivity but > objectivity without the subjective factor is "dead" or lacks the "force" > [power] of life-vitality and becomes "merely" objects. Human being > therefor is a "unity" [a new form] that may become more or less > "crystallized" human being which participates within the "gaps" which > "exist" between the crystallized "unity" of the "self" and the "not yet" > possibility. > > Can "human being" as a "unity" [subjective and objective factors which BOTH > develop begin from different "roots" become, through development a new > synthesis that is an "expansion" beyond either mere preconscious > subjectivity [or a term that may reflect an embryo that must incubate] and > also an expansion beyond "mere" preconscious objectivity [the always > already thrown crystallized facet of objective form. > To separate this "unity" of human being is "as if" separating the "unity" > of word meaning into "words" and "meanings" destroying the unity and > leaving merely "generalization" that looses the specificity of "concrete > universals" [prototypes] [situated events]. > > Bloch is offering us a personal way of making "sense" [Bahktin's themes], > emerging within German Idealism [Kant, etc] AND German Romanticism. > > Just speculating, going out on limb, playing with figurative worlds. > Bloch seems to invite a close reading of his 3 volumes containing over > 1000 pages. [17 volumes in total he wrote] > I was fascinated to know who he was friends with [Simmel, Lukacs, Benjamin, > Adorno] but incarnating "hope" The word incarnating seems appropriate to > the way Bloch approached the unity of the human being and human nature. > > His personal autobiography through Europe and America also seems relevant > Larry > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > Larry, I noticed this too. > > > > Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc > in > > Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. > > > > Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to > > spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological > aura. > > > > Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, > > so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." > > > > Good enough for me. > > > > H > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > > > For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like > to > > > invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his > > > article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of > > access] > > > > > > Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, > > > > > > "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, > > the > > > deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and > > > perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of > > > collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... > > > makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term > (2010) > > > the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart > > despair > > > [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a > > counterintuitive > > > radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions > of > > > blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that > it > > > still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in > Bloch's > > > sense." > > > > > > I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a > > > religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently > contestable > > > open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple > > > meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's > > sense. > > > > > > I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page > A38 > > > that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical > > > instantiation. He says, > > > > > > "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of > > proximal > > >> development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space > > >> metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- > > >> incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " > > > > > > > > > The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten > > > makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as > > > concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes > > > carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS > > methods. > > > The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as > Prototypical > > > Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and > > > collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning > and > > > relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. > > > Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope > > endlessly > > > postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of > "could > > > be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. > > > > > > I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" > > > beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" > > enacting > > > and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted > > with > > > "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mn@edu.au.dk Mon Feb 16 08:55:27 2015 From: mn@edu.au.dk (Morten Nissen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 16:55:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <10A0EF4E-FC22-4296-9AAA-1FCF52C3080A@edu.au.dk> Hi xmca Definitely SCHAT scholars should learn from Ernst Bloch, and even beyond his introduction. I was first introduced to Bloch by Athanasios Marvakis who wrote in his PhD in German about appropriating Bloch for the Berlin branch of Vygotskian critical psychology. He also wrote something in English. See https://www.academia.edu/attachments/4442791/download_file?st=MTQyNDEwNTM2Myw1LjEwMy4yMzEuNzUsMTUzMzk4MzU%3D&s=swp-toolbar Or if you are not logged in, try first http://www.academia.edu/763137/THE_UTOPIAN_SURPLUS_IN_HUMAN_AGENCY_USING_ERNST_BLOCH_S_PHILOSOPHY_FOR_PSYCHOLOGY Best, Morten Morten Nissen PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor Department of Education Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ [Beskrivelse: cid:image004.png@01CC31B2.EB3C2970] Den 16/02/2015 kl. 17.29 skrev mike cole >: I also read only the preface as a kind of summary, and skimmed, Larry. Perhaps Morten will know of a particular essay that can provide the sort of "short form" that Annalisa was asking for. I do not know of such a summary by Bloch. 600 pages is a lot, never mind 1000. Others have provided synopses and the topic has apparently been rather widely debated. I am dealing with a number of simultaneous deadlines, one of which is the next issue of MCA so cannot be of much help here for now. mike On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: Mike, I have read the introduction of Bloch's book on hope. [PAGE xxviii] has a fascinating exploration as both the objective factor and the subjective factor developing each within the other to form a new possibility which is "not yet" formed. I find this way of understanding parelling Vygotsky's notion of the "unity" of word meaning as the germ cell. Can a case be made that at the micro level of "words" devoid of meaning are empty shells [dead forms] AND the micro level of "meaning" without thought cannot go "inner" That the same [possibly universal] human process applies to human being/becoming. Subjectivity without the objective factor is meaningless subjectivity but objectivity without the subjective factor is "dead" or lacks the "force" [power] of life-vitality and becomes "merely" objects. Human being therefor is a "unity" [a new form] that may become more or less "crystallized" human being which participates within the "gaps" which "exist" between the crystallized "unity" of the "self" and the "not yet" possibility. Can "human being" as a "unity" [subjective and objective factors which BOTH develop begin from different "roots" become, through development a new synthesis that is an "expansion" beyond either mere preconscious subjectivity [or a term that may reflect an embryo that must incubate] and also an expansion beyond "mere" preconscious objectivity [the always already thrown crystallized facet of objective form. To separate this "unity" of human being is "as if" separating the "unity" of word meaning into "words" and "meanings" destroying the unity and leaving merely "generalization" that looses the specificity of "concrete universals" [prototypes] [situated events]. Bloch is offering us a personal way of making "sense" [Bahktin's themes], emerging within German Idealism [Kant, etc] AND German Romanticism. Just speculating, going out on limb, playing with figurative worlds. Bloch seems to invite a close reading of his 3 volumes containing over 1000 pages. [17 volumes in total he wrote] I was fascinated to know who he was friends with [Simmel, Lukacs, Benjamin, Adorno] but incarnating "hope" The word incarnating seems appropriate to the way Bloch approached the unity of the human being and human nature. His personal autobiography through Europe and America also seems relevant Larry On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: Larry, I noticed this too. Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc in Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological aura. Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." Good enough for me. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like to invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of access] Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, the deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term (2010) the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart despair [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a counterintuitive radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions of blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that it still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in Bloch's sense." I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently contestable open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's sense. I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page A38 that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical instantiation. He says, "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of proximal development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS methods. The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as Prototypical Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning and relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope endlessly postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of "could be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" enacting and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted with "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. Larry -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Feb 16 09:22:14 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:22:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: <10A0EF4E-FC22-4296-9AAA-1FCF52C3080A@edu.au.dk> References: <10A0EF4E-FC22-4296-9AAA-1FCF52C3080A@edu.au.dk> Message-ID: The title of the article is exciting, Martin. The idea of "the utopian surplus of human agency" (could we substitute action for agency) reinforces my belief, inspired by my Vygotskian habitations, that imagination is the central nexus of human experiencing. Look forward to reading it. mike On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Morten Nissen wrote: > Hi xmca > Definitely SCHAT scholars should learn from Ernst Bloch, and even beyond > his introduction. I was first introduced to Bloch by Athanasios Marvakis > who wrote in his PhD in German about appropriating Bloch for the Berlin > branch of Vygotskian critical psychology. He also wrote something in > English. > See > https://www.academia.edu/attachments/4442791/download_file?st=MTQyNDEwNTM2Myw1LjEwMy4yMzEuNzUsMTUzMzk4MzU%3D&s=swp-toolbar > Or if you are not logged in, try first > http://www.academia.edu/763137/THE_UTOPIAN_SURPLUS_IN_HUMAN_AGENCY_USING_ERNST_BLOCH_S_PHILOSOPHY_FOR_PSYCHOLOGY > > Best, > Morten > > Morten Nissen > PhD, Dr. Psych. > Professor > Department of Education > Aarhus University > Tuborgvej 164 > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > www.edu.au.dk/ www.edu.au.dk/> > [Beskrivelse: cid:image004.png@01CC31B2.EB3C2970] > > Den 16/02/2015 kl. 17.29 skrev mike cole mcole@ucsd.edu>>: > > I also read only the preface as a kind of summary, and skimmed, Larry. > Perhaps Morten will know of a particular essay that can provide the sort of > "short form" that Annalisa was asking for. I do not know of such a summary > by Bloch. 600 pages is a lot, never mind 1000. Others have provided > synopses and the topic has apparently been rather widely debated. > > I am dealing with a number of simultaneous deadlines, one of which is the > next issue of MCA so cannot be of much help here for now. > mike > > > > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Larry Purss lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Mike, > I have read the introduction of Bloch's book on hope. > [PAGE xxviii] has a fascinating exploration as both the objective factor > and the subjective factor developing each within the other to form a new > possibility which is "not yet" formed. > > I find this way of understanding parelling Vygotsky's notion of the "unity" > of word meaning as the germ cell. Can a case be made that at the micro > level of "words" devoid of meaning are empty shells [dead forms] AND the > micro level of "meaning" without thought cannot go "inner" > That the same [possibly universal] human process applies to human > being/becoming. > > Subjectivity without the objective factor is meaningless subjectivity but > objectivity without the subjective factor is "dead" or lacks the "force" > [power] of life-vitality and becomes "merely" objects. Human being > therefor is a "unity" [a new form] that may become more or less > "crystallized" human being which participates within the "gaps" which > "exist" between the crystallized "unity" of the "self" and the "not yet" > possibility. > > Can "human being" as a "unity" [subjective and objective factors which BOTH > develop begin from different "roots" become, through development a new > synthesis that is an "expansion" beyond either mere preconscious > subjectivity [or a term that may reflect an embryo that must incubate] and > also an expansion beyond "mere" preconscious objectivity [the always > already thrown crystallized facet of objective form. > To separate this "unity" of human being is "as if" separating the "unity" > of word meaning into "words" and "meanings" destroying the unity and > leaving merely "generalization" that looses the specificity of "concrete > universals" [prototypes] [situated events]. > > Bloch is offering us a personal way of making "sense" [Bahktin's themes], > emerging within German Idealism [Kant, etc] AND German Romanticism. > > Just speculating, going out on limb, playing with figurative worlds. > Bloch seems to invite a close reading of his 3 volumes containing over > 1000 pages. [17 volumes in total he wrote] > I was fascinated to know who he was friends with [Simmel, Lukacs, Benjamin, > Adorno] but incarnating "hope" The word incarnating seems appropriate to > the way Bloch approached the unity of the human being and human nature. > > His personal autobiography through Europe and America also seems relevant > Larry > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Helena Worthen > > wrote: > > Larry, I noticed this too. > > Try substituting "hope" for "mission", "goal", "purpose" ,"object", etc > in > Activity theory, as in, the system is defined by its purpose. > > Try "The system is defined by its hope." The meanings overlap enough to > spring Activity theory free of its rather mechanical and technological > aura. > > Andy uses "project" to give us another pespective on acitivity systems, > so-called, and now Nissen proposes "hope." > > Good enough for me. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 14, 2015, at 10:36 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > For those engaged with Morten Nissen's collective project I would like > to > invite a close reading the concluding section [pages A36 to A39] in his > article "Meeting Youth in Movement" [I have reattached for ease of > access] > > Morten frames his "approach" as an approach of "hope". He writes, > > "what I am doing here, then, is articulating the hope, the possibility, > the > deeply historical emergent narrative, still very much unfinished - and > perhaps temporarily halted - of a trans-pedagological tinkering of > collectives, as part of an expanding and responsive welfare state. .... > makes this a 'blues hope' in Cheryl Mattingly's sense of the term > (2010) > the kind of hope that remains close to its dialectical counterpart > despair > [LP and dread]. It shares with certain religious utopia a > counterintuitive > radicalism that calls forth doubt. But contrary to religious versions > of > blues hope, this is written as inherently contestable, in the way that > it > still claims to present a real possibility, a concrete utopia in > Bloch's > sense." > > I would add that some prototypical versions with an ethics based in a > religious ground could also include a hope that is inherently > contestable > open possibility that "could be". The term "religious" has multiple > meanings and sense and some protypes enact concrete utopia in Bloch's > sense. > > I also want to bring in Morten's understanding of "met-phor". On page > A38 > that a version such as Morten's brings in a spatial or geographical > instantiation. He says, > > "Although 'movement' and 'neutral ground' like Vygotsky's 'zone of > proximal > development' [and many other theoretical constructs], addresses space > metaphorically, it is at the same time quite *corporeal. [LP- > incorporated, embodied, incarnated]*. " > > > The section following elaborates on Morten's notion of "spaces" Morten > makes a case that how our understanding can become prototypical [as > concrete universals] is through the development of "models" [prototypes > carry models and possibly metaphors or figural worlds] Models AS > methods. > The concluding section of this article is titled "Theory: as > Prototypical > Narrative" Theory enacting hope and despair, hope and dread, and > collectives [third spaces] being/becoming embodied places of meaning > and > relevance *AS ETHICAL AND POLITICAL places of empowerment*. > Morten's concluding comment references Derrida as projecting hope > endlessly > postponed as the "places" of collective enactments, the places of > "could > be", and "yet to come" within a transformational participatory stance. > > I continue to search for ways to expand the understanding of "metaphor" > beyond "mere" meataphor to indicate that metaphor is deeply "real" > enacting > and embodying collectives. In other words "real" metaphor contrasted > with > "ornamental" metaphor which embellishes the literal. > > Larry > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 16 15:03:18 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 23:03:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hope and Despair as a "blues Hope In Morten Nissen's Ethical Prototype In-Reply-To: References: <10A0EF4E-FC22-4296-9AAA-1FCF52C3080A@edu.au.dk>, Message-ID: <1424127798034.56165@unm.edu> Dear Morton, This is exactly the antidote I was wishing for, thanks! Below I've posted the chapter summary to pique the curiosity of others! :) I would like to suggest that perhaps what is touched upon here possibly relates to BEING over action, especially when Marvakis says: "Agency is not only performing, executing, carrying out certain (given) ?tasks?". In my conception, BEING would be where agency derives, as a fountainhead of resources that promote one to act creatively, expressively. Not as material but perhaps energetically (the words are hard to pin down about this). By this I mean BEING is undifferentiated in the way water emerges from the fountain undifferentiated, as a force moving outward (to create). As in when Marvakis says: "Thus, human action can be understood only through always looking for and reflecting on its pre-figurative qualities and dimensions." For me this seems to say we must think about where action/agency comes from, what is their genesis? Isn't this BEING? Kind regards, Annalisa From: "The utopian surplus in human agency ? Using Ernst Bloch?s philosophy for psychology" Athanasios Marvakis, Department of Primary Education, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki/Greece [no date - link here: https://www.academia.edu/763137/THE_UTOPIAN_SURPLUS_IN_HUMAN_AGENCY_USING_ERNST_BLOCH_S_PHILOSOPHY_FOR_PSYCHOLOGY ] This chapter begins with what is called ?privileged? references to the past and the present as the only temporalities that constitute human existence. This is a position that insinuates that these are the only determinant temporalities of our agency and consciousness. The determination by the past and/or the present seems to be transcended theoretically usually only when it comes to specific forms of actions, such as radicalpolitical, feminist and so on (e.g., Parker, 2004). The argument to be deployed here is that we cannot account pre-figurative qualities only to particular kinds of actions. Human agency cannot, in general, be understood by the past determinants (e.g., the learning history of the subject/s) and/or through constraints on it by present ?problems? (waiting to be solved by the subjects). Agency is grounded on and creates images of possibilities, and by this, contains and refers to (implicit or explicit, overt or not, conscious or not) dimensions transcending past and present constraints. Agency is not only performing, executing, carrying out certain (given) ?tasks?. We have to discern also its anticipative and creative dimensions, its ability not only to answer (given) questions and to solve (existing) problems, but also to formulate questions and to indicate phenomena as being problematical for action. Human action is not only maintaining and sustaining, but also pioneering alternative (future) social relations ? and by this it is always political. Thus, human action can be understood only through always looking for and reflecting on its pre-figurative qualities and dimensions. In my argument here I apply the open and process philosophy of Ernst Bloch as a base for expanding our vision of human agency. For Bloch, human thinking and action anticipate the future and encroach upon the future. From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 16 17:55:19 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 01:55:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?_Marvakis=27s_Utopian_Surplus_=E1_la_Bloch?= Message-ID: <1424138119310.38118@unm.edu> Dear xmcars, Now that I'm a little into the Marvakis paper, I thought it was interesting how before I'd read it I made a reference to undifferentiated energy as deriving from Being, and then, once getting into the paper finding on page 5 there was a reference to "the volcano of productivity" ! I am recognizing that the concepts here are setting up to potentials of replicating patterns of thinking of the past to consider what has been, and instead place them into patterns of the future to consider what could be... :) There is a seductive quality of thinking that by projecting into the future we can eliminate patterns of thinking in the past, just by orienting those thoughts in time (to the future, instead). That may sound like I'm being a wet blanket here, but I'd like to ask how can we be sure that just by orienting to the timeline of the future that we can be safeguarded from replicating habitual (thought) patterns of the past? Particularly if those patterns have been destructive ones? (Thinking about Birren the drug addict for example). Do habits dissipate just by orienting to the future? I am not adverse to these conceptions but I'm not sure how it is possible to consider the past or the future without BEING in the present. The mind is always orienting FROM the present even if it may be orienting TO the past or TO the future. (Consider a directory map and the necessity for the YOU ARE HERE X in order to orient to the map) There is no difference in the act of orienting except the direction (of time). I'd like to know how I think about the future (or the past) without being in the present. I'm always in the present, even if I'm unconscious of it, by thinking (orienting) to the past or the future. Both realities of past and future are projections onto a Western construction of conceptual time, looking something like: [past] present [future] The orientation to hope is also interesting and I'm pleased to make an inquiry into it. So I shall read some more! I like the idea of conceiving of cognition and emotion as thinking and hoping because these seem to situate into the present moment rather than into an abstract space of -tion (aka shunning!) However, these experiences still suffer the Cartesian disease, as they are dual by being separated. Why is that the case? When I think and when I hope these are not divergent experiences, but unified. I would still like to offer that much of what is at issue in everyday living (for me anyway while relating socially) is the prevalence of an incapacity for being in the present moment. This seems to be something largely cultural. The malaise of modern living (my take) is largely because of the habitual tendency of whisking attention away from matters from the moment of now to moments of anything but now. There is a wealth of potential that arises not by orienting to the future (or the past) but by BEING in the present moment. In fact we cannot detect the change of time (to even sense a sense of becoming), without there being something constant, and that constant is the present moment. This would mean that the BEING of now is a different entity than the BECOMING of the mind. But that's a different conversation! :) Kind regards, Annalisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Feb 16 18:44:43 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:44:43 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Verismo and the Gothic Message-ID: Annalisa: When my wife is bored with what I say (usually when I am nattering on and she is trying to read) she sometimes uses a Chinese quotation from Mao Zedong, "mei you diao cha, mei you fa yan quan", which means something like "He who has not done the investigation has no right to speak". I was thinking about this, because sometimes the xmca list of texts to investigate gets so long (cf. eight hundred odd pages of Bloch!) that it's a wonder anyone has a right to write at all. I think that your solution of an "executive summary" is one possibility of keeping the (indispensible) dialogue alive. But of course executive summaries are a little like summary executions: I also understand why Bloch specialists would not consider the executive summary equivalent to the real thing and why them ight even retort with the German equivalent of "mei you diao cha, mei you fa yan quan". So it seems to me that there is another solution. A lot of xmca discussions are sufficiently abstract that other texts that I am in contact with for one reason or another seem quite related. I sometimes feel as if Larry's letters are a little bit like threatening letters one might receive from a kidnapper--that is, they are composed of quotations snipped from here and there--but I also feel that, juxtaposed in such a way, the most disparate quotes sometimes reveal completely new but not completely irrelevant meanings. All of which is preamble. You say that the PRESENT is the only conceivable "You are here" sticker we can use on the little floor plans we have to carry around of our lives (mine usually says something like "you are here and the men's room is way at the other end of the mall"). Bergson, the arch-idealist and dualist who had such a big influence on Proust and on "Recherche de Temps Perdu", stoutly denies this. According to the Catholic Bergson, we have two such deictic stickers: a brain, which functions like any animal brain in the present, and a mind, which functions like any other historical object, in the past--or perhaps, in the perfective, in the immediately relevant past, the past of "I have just...". You might think that Vygotsky utterly rejects the idealism and dualism in this view, and so he does. But Vygotsky is never wholly accepting and never wholly rejecting: his attitude towards other thinkers is never one of trust but always one of hope. So he DOES accept Bergson's distinction, though of course he re-interprets it so that it coincides with his own distinction between the visiographic lower psychological functions and the linguistically mediated higher ones. Now, this means that the distinction is no longer really about "memoire et matiere", or even past and present; it's now about the real (that is, sensually present) and the potential (the "hoped" if you like). And like most really profound distinctions, it doesn't really go away when we choose one end of the continuum or the other--we find that within the realm of linguistically mediated potential, the same distinction is reproduced, and within each part of that, re-reproduced. That is, some forms of verbal imagination--yea, verbal art--are more oriented towards the visiographic and others towards the purely verbal. Opera is an extreme example of this, because it necessarily includes both the immediately sensual and the verbally mediated. For most of the history of opera, the tendency has been away from speech making (e.g. recitatives, which have speech rhythms) and towards elaborate sets, exciting action, and visiographic sensation (e.g. arias, which have regular meter). But, as with many literary arts, this tendency took an "inward turn" after the French Revolution, and opera bifurcated: Realism on the one hand, and Gothicism (sentimentalism, extreme sensationalism, and above all introspection) on the other. You can think of the two lines as being social-realism and psychological realism. I was very conscious of this while in Chamonix, in the French Alps, about two weeks ago. It was a very poor area, and so in the nineteenth century it was a hotbed of verismo ("Linda di Chamounix", and all those alpine operas, like "La Fille du Regiment" and "La Wally"). But it was also a seedbed of the Gothic: the crucial scene in Frankenstein is set on the "mer de glaces" near Mont Blanc across from where I was skiing with my father, and the first vampire stories were set in nearby Geneva. Even the "verismo" operas cannot escape the inward turn. In the last scene of "La Wally", for example, Wally has given away all her lands, her house in the valley, and even her lover, Hagenbach, to the barmaid Afra, and sits up in the mountains freezing. Traditionally, the last part of the opera (notoriously difficult to stage, for reasons that will soon become apparent) involves the sudden appearance of her lover: they forgive each other (she forgives him for having stolen a kiss during a dance for a bet, and he forgives her for attempted murder in revenge). Then an avalanche kills them both, or first kills him and then her when she jumps in after, if you want to get technical. But in THIS version, which I actually think is the only correct version, the WHOLE of the last scene takes place ONLY in Wally's mind! That's the nature of the Gothic: Bergson's brain (matiere) becomes a prisoner of mind (memoire). And that is one reason why, although Vygotsky did acquiesce in Bergson's distinction between mind and brain (unlike, say, Chomsky) Vygotsky insisted on proplepsis--that is, on resituating the potential in the future rather than the past. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUzrXSOjOMg (The intra-psychological sequence begins at 1:40:00. Note that this version has a really very fine Korean tenor in the role of Hagenbach--at the very end, when he takes a bow, if you read his lips he is thanking the audience not in his singing language but in his thinking-and-feeling language--Korean!) David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 16 21:06:58 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 05:06:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> David! You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice present! What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list writ large! :) Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling executive summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the present moment! And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! Even Aesthetics and Politics (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and Adorno (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks quite intriguing? Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl Marx (1971)!!! Again there is nothing but bounty out there! I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or hypothetical? In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true about this concept of what is real, at all? In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms of mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological processes which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated rather than explicated. Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the neighborhood of lower psychological processes. I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." Or something to that effect. Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to kill off all the divas. Oh well?(feminist note-taking ?) But let's keep singing anyway. I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the times. In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on youtube, no less) . Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate the present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present moment, still! And now still! Kind regards, Annalisa From vygotsky@unm.edu Mon Feb 16 21:35:43 2015 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 22:35:43 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> Message-ID: <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? Michael Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an utterance. I have been thinking about it in terms of organic processes such as birthing and dying where each moment leads to a definitive outcome not just an anticipation but as close to certainty as we are capable of understanding. It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often feels like a pretty hopeless world. And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that while influenced by language are built on other modalities. Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic David! You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice present! What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list writ large! :) Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling executive summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the present moment! And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! Even Aesthetics and Politics (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and Adorno (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks quite intriguing Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl Marx (1971)!!! Again there is nothing but bounty out there! I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or hypothetical? In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true about this concept of what is real, at all? In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms of mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological processes which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated rather than explicated. Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the neighborhood of lower psychological processes. I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." Or something to that effect. Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to kill off all the divas. Oh well (feminist note-taking ) But let's keep singing anyway. I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the times. In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on youtube, no less) . Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate the present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present moment, still! And now still! Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 16 23:19:47 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 07:19:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu>,<002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> Message-ID: <1424157586561.92249@unm.edu> Dear Vera, David and esteemed others, The exact reason that the present moment cannot be divided or bounded is a distinct clue to understanding being, because being doesn't change, though the mind does change. Which is to say there is a distinction between being and mind, in the sense that being is a field of awareness which includes the world, and the mind is the instrument which takes it all in (via the present moment). That is why the being of the sky is no different than the being of the sun, or any other being in terms of existence. It is as if the sky is beingness in the shape of the sky, the sun is beingness in the shape of the sun, and so on. If being doesn't change, and the mind does, the mind is dependent upon being in order to change (which provides mind the sense of becoming, of the mind developing and maturing in time); like the sky is dependent upon being in order to change. Being, on the other hand, unlike the mind, is outside of time and of space, because it cannot be bounded nor divided. We can see this in our experience of the three states of mind: in the awake state, the dream state, and the deep sleep state. In all three states of mind we each are aware of that state, even if the mind has different qualities through these states (that change). The I AM of "I am awake," "I am dreaming," "I am in deep sleep" is the same, but the mind changes. This isn't a description of anything that is outside of anyone's experience, to see it for oneself. Just like the present moment is always available, it's like that. What can be a sticky point for some is when we take our being to be dependent upon the mind. That I am my mind and all my reality is based upon the changing states of my mind, when actually it is the mind that is dependent upon me. (That is why I say "my mind": my mind is me, I am not my mind (because I am more than my mind)). But reflection upon this can reveal this is the case, not because I say so or post it in words on the list! :) It is self-evident, meaning you can see it for yourself. Birthing and dying are experiences that come and go, but we could not experience them as coming and going without having some stationary point by which to know they are coming and going. That stationary point is being, as alive to us through awareness, which is always available in no other time other than the present moment. In fact it is so available to us that we take it for granted, like fish take the water for granted. I am suggesting most earnestly, that the notion of hope arises from a mind that longs for something better because that is always the nature of the mind. It is a sensing tool (called perception and feeling) with a built-in problem solver (called thinking) which combined is an "inner instrument" that we call mind (in a body)(in a history)(in a culture)(in a society)(in an environment)(sometimes, grasping tools) as united, in being, in the present moment. What I learn from Vygotsky is that the developing (changing) mind is motivated by meaning. I love this. Meaning cannot be preordained. It arises in the present moment for that person who experiences this meaning, and it can manifest in many different forms. So hope is to meaning like the bird flying to its nest. Though meaning can manifest even in hopelessness. I believe it possible that znachenie slova (word-meaning) is a unit to reference meaning but in relation to the word (or words as representing that meaning at that moment), while at the same time this same meaning could easily be attached to other modalities, perhaps intertwined with the other senses, seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching (and may explain why smells or songs conjure memories...meaningful to us). The are kinds of embodied meaning or meaning embodied. So meaning doesn't happen by words alone: we add meaning through the tone of our voice, how slowly or quickly we are speaking, if we are avoiding eye contact vs holding it, if we are speaking while moving our hands or with our backs to those we are speaking to, for example. Still, even though we rely upon the social conjurings of meaning through language in various contextual circumstances, language isn't all there is for meaning-making and sensing meaning. Artists, musicians, and writers are adept at creating meaning beyond the word, by recreating sensual moments we can live through in the present moment. But how to be scientific about these meanings, the "most precisely"? The only viable path is through verbal language, which is the only form of transmission (of meaning) from one mind to another, independent of perception (and independent of time and space, if we write it down). Perhaps this is also because language possesses more precision or granularity from its powers of description and abstraction. Yet it isn't exact because we have so many opportunities to misunderstand one another through language. Is it not amazing that we can even understand each other at all? It is magic! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 17 07:27:29 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 07:27:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Form, Function, and Hope Message-ID: The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, dread, and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this moment can we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" as cultural-historical embedded practices. Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent and separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future orientedness - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and fuzzy MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - coming into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within everyday life." I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" Larry From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Feb 17 08:38:00 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 11:38:00 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Form, Function, and Hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi again Everyone! I recognize that most of what I write here is redundant and part of the given history of XCMA, but I think we need to continually renew our metalanguage by spelling out key concepts for newcomers and of course our own students. Otherwise we could end up like the prisoners on Alcatraz that had been so long together that they knew all knew each other's jokes, so all they needed to say was "number 39 ha, ha ". "Well number 6 back to you". In terms of the praxis of hope and being within the zpd, I love Michael Cole's (1996) notion of prolepsis which is predicated on LSV's concept of budding .Prolepsis is the perception of an anticipated or future condition of development before it actually exists as an internalized state of being. "The zone of proximal development defines those functions that have not yet matured but are in the process of maturation, functions that will mature tomorrow but are currently in an embryonic state. These functions could be termed the ?buds? or ?flowers? of development rather than the ?fruits? of development.? (Vygotsky, 1978, p.86)" *So hope of further **development** is based on present "being".* For example at some point in life , probably all of us were told that we had real potential as a scholar or teacher . Prolepsis is a rare and extremely valuable tool in education if teachers and mentors can use it realistically as a means to help students move into spaces that are truly within their grasp through interaction with those who see can look at the bud and see the fruit until prolepsis becomes internalized by the student themselves. Boris Meshcheryakov (2007) calls this transition a process of moving from ?heteroprolepsis? to ?autoprolepsis? (p.166). An example of each would be when a parent hears their child humming on key or reproducing entire tunes in various levels of complexity, they will of course, under normal conditions, encourage their offspring toward some future musical activity by reporting their performance to them with something like ?when you were two, you could hum all the notes to that song and I know you will do quite well with piano lessons?.Meshcheryakov goes on to relate an example of autoprolepsis in children?s role playing when the child imagines ?him or herself in various adults? roles (hunter, mother, teacher, etc.), imitating the elements of cultural forms of behavior? (p. 167). Many future and present teachers for example can recall a time when they used to pretend teach their siblings or maybe even their stuffed animals. But this role-play does not cease as we grow out of childhood. Student teaching, apprenticeships, GA's could all be zpd spaces with the potential of moving from heteroprolepsis to autoprolepsis. Cole, M.,(1996). *Cultural psychology: A once and future* *discipline.* Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. Meshcheryakov, B. G. (2007). Terminology in L. S. Vygotsky?s writings. In Daniels, H., Cole, M., Wertsch, J. V. (Eds.) *The Cambridge companion to Vygotsky*. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. Vygotsky, L.S. (1978). *Mind in society*. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, dread, > and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". > The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this moment can > we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. > This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which > develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". > So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" as > cultural-historical embedded practices. > > Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: > > "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent and > separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future orientedness > - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, > recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and fuzzy > MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - coming > into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within > everyday life." > > I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to > Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" > > Larry > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue Feb 17 09:29:03 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:29:03 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> Message-ID: I love the idea of the present as "the length of an utterance." So, how long is an utterance? I remember from The Dialogic Imagination that an utterance is the unit of speech that occurs between two other links in a dialog (a quick google search on this got me here) "in any sphere." Bakhtin certainly views dialogs as spanning vast eras, and views the individual turns in a dialog as spanning more than just one person's contribution. So if we think of a bounded thread of cultural history -- like feminism, for example, or slavery, or terrorism - as one link in a continuing dialog about each of these, we can talk about the "present" of feminism, the "present" of slavery, the "present" of terorism. We are all (or many of us) talking about feminism in a certain way today, which is different from the way we talked about in the previous bounce, or turn, or whatever you want to call it, of the dialog. So starting with when the current meaning of feminism started, and bounded in the past by when the previous meaning began to shift, we can talk about the "present" of the utterance of the dialog of feminism. This gives us something that we can look at and think about. Too loose for only one cup of coffee? It's a nice foggy day in the Bay Area, not enough to count as rain but at least it's damp. Obviously, I've just seen "She's Beautiful When She's Angry," a really good movie. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:35 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the > boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? Michael > Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an utterance. I > have been thinking about it in terms of organic processes such as birthing > and dying where each moment leads to a definitive outcome not just an > anticipation but as close to certainty as we are capable of > understanding. > It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often feels > like a pretty hopeless world. > > And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that while > influenced by language are built on other modalities. > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > David! > > You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice > present! > > What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from youtube), > which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list writ large! :) > > Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by asking > for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling executive > summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the present > moment! > > And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! > > Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received the > second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like it please > email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even received the Principle > of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! Even Aesthetics and Politics > (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and Adorno > (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks quite > intriguing? Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl Marx (1971)!!! > Again there is nothing but bounty out there! > > I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other end > of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up with > distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be suspicious of > Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up unannounced in Monty > Python skits, stealing the show! > > Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is always > referencing the moment of change which can only be in the present moment, he > is always open to possibility that something new can happen. This is the > aesthetic experience. Some might interpret that anticipation as hope, I'm OK > with that. But you are the one who is saying (in the present moment -- that > is in relation to this xmca post as I am reading it now, which is a > different now than when you wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. > Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or hypothetical? > > In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; > anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it all > depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we label as > real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true about this concept > of what is real, at all? > > In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms of > mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am not > persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. Though there > may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates this mediation. I > believe there is plural room for other plural forms. > > Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher forms > and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. And these > were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, is it not > possible to have higher forms of psychological processes which are not > linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That seems like attempting to > prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass Destruction leading to a > Mission Accomplished). > > As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective > pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, and so > perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically mediated" higher > ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of concepts as derived > conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put them into words. But this > poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or lower), in fact it is the case that > the words just do not serve well enough to explain the form of thinking. The > meaning is implicated rather than explicated. > > Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might be > called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might want to > represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as well, I would > protest to describe his thinking as happening in the neighborhood of lower > psychological processes. > > I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry about > that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I sing you to > me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." Or something to > that effect. > > Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to kill off > all the divas. Oh well?(feminist note-taking ?) But let's keep singing > anyway. > > I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did contribute > to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these coincide with > Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art such a great > touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the times. > > In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and > situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is displayed > in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we can only imagine > in the present moment while watching the opera (on youtube, no less) . > Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or > premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, we can > never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel through > time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the means of > visiting other people's imaginations! :) > > If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for > imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate the > present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings *without* the > present involved? I welcome that explanation! > > However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present moment, > still! > > And now still! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue Feb 17 09:36:58 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:36:58 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Form, Function, and Hope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> Thanks for this, Robert. Good collection of thoughts and references about prolepsis. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 17, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi again Everyone! > I recognize that most of what I write here is redundant and part of the > given history of XCMA, but I think we need to continually renew our > metalanguage by spelling out key concepts for newcomers and of course our > own students. Otherwise we could end up like the prisoners on Alcatraz that > had been so long together that they knew all knew each other's jokes, so > all they needed to say was "number 39 ha, ha ". "Well number 6 back to you". > > In terms of the praxis of hope and being within the zpd, I love Michael > Cole's (1996) notion of prolepsis which is predicated on LSV's concept of > budding .Prolepsis is the perception of an anticipated or future condition > of development before it actually exists as an internalized state of being. > "The zone of proximal development defines those functions that have not yet > matured but are in the process of maturation, functions that will mature > tomorrow but are currently in an embryonic state. These functions could be > termed the ?buds? or ?flowers? of development rather than the ?fruits? of > development.? (Vygotsky, 1978, p.86)" *So hope of further **development** is > based on present "being".* For example at some point in life , probably > all of us were told that we had real potential as a scholar or teacher . > Prolepsis is a rare and extremely valuable tool in education if teachers > and mentors can use it realistically as a means to help students move into > spaces that are truly within their grasp through interaction with those who > see can look at the bud and see the fruit until prolepsis becomes > internalized by the student themselves. Boris Meshcheryakov (2007) calls > this transition a process of moving from ?heteroprolepsis? to > ?autoprolepsis? (p.166). > > An example of each would be when a parent hears their child humming on key > or reproducing entire tunes in various levels of complexity, they will of > course, under normal conditions, encourage their offspring toward some > future musical activity by reporting their performance to them with > something like ?when you were two, you could hum all the notes to that song > and I know you will do quite well with piano lessons?.Meshcheryakov goes on > to relate an example of autoprolepsis in children?s role playing when the > child imagines ?him or herself in various adults? roles (hunter, mother, > teacher, etc.), imitating the elements of cultural forms of behavior? (p. > 167). Many future and present teachers for example can recall a time when > they used to pretend teach their siblings or maybe even their stuffed > animals. But this role-play does not cease as we grow out of childhood. > Student teaching, apprenticeships, GA's could all be zpd spaces with the > potential of moving from heteroprolepsis to autoprolepsis. > > > Cole, M.,(1996). *Cultural psychology: A once and future* *discipline.* > Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. > > > Meshcheryakov, B. G. (2007). Terminology in L. S. Vygotsky?s writings. In > Daniels, H., Cole, M., Wertsch, J. V. (Eds.) *The Cambridge companion to > Vygotsky*. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. > > > Vygotsky, L.S. (1978). *Mind in society*. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University > Press. > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, dread, >> and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". >> The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this moment can >> we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. >> This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which >> develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". >> So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" as >> cultural-historical embedded practices. >> >> Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: >> >> "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent and >> separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future orientedness >> - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, >> recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and fuzzy >> MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - coming >> into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within >> everyday life." >> >> I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to >> Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" >> >> Larry >> > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Feb 17 09:38:06 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 17:38:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Perhaps it is just what I am reading right now (Heidegger and Marcuse on technology - Marcuse by the way was a close associate of Bloch and they shared a Utopian vision of hope as moving beyond a class based society). But to get back to my point - is present something we can take from the past? The idea of present as an utterance taken from Bhaktin? Is technology changing our understanding of what the present means. I read posts in the present such as those from David and Annalise but they then they fall into the past as I move on to other things. Then I read a post that brings their words back into the present, in concrete terms (as Huw so often does), or in reflection on the current thinking of the poster (as Larry so often does) or simply as an extension of the conversation as in the post below from Helena. Do technologies allow the past to keep circling back into the present - and what does that mean for our concept of time? Notes from a very, very cold day in Columbus - can't wait for winter to be in the past. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 12:29 PM To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic I love the idea of the present as "the length of an utterance." So, how long is an utterance? I remember from The Dialogic Imagination that an utterance is the unit of speech that occurs between two other links in a dialog (a quick google search on this got me here) "in any sphere." Bakhtin certainly views dialogs as spanning vast eras, and views the individual turns in a dialog as spanning more than just one person's contribution. So if we think of a bounded thread of cultural history -- like feminism, for example, or slavery, or terrorism - as one link in a continuing dialog about each of these, we can talk about the "present" of feminism, the "present" of slavery, the "present" of terorism. We are all (or many of us) talking about feminism in a certain way today, which is different from the way we talked about in the previous bounce, or turn, or whatever you want to call it, of the dialog. So starting with when the current meaning of feminism started, and bounded in the past by when the previous meaning began to shift, we can talk about the "present" of the utterance of the dialog of feminism. This gives us something that we can look at and think about. Too loose for only one cup of coffee? It's a nice foggy day in the Bay Area, not enough to count as rain but at least it's damp. Obviously, I've just seen "She's Beautiful When She's Angry," a really good movie. Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:35 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the > boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? > Michael Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an > utterance. I have been thinking about it in terms of organic processes > such as birthing and dying where each moment leads to a definitive > outcome not just an anticipation but as close to certainty as we are > capable of understanding. > It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often > feels like a pretty hopeless world. > > And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that > while influenced by language are built on other modalities. > > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > David! > > You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice > present! > > What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from > youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list > writ large! :) > > Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by > asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling > executive > summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the > present moment! > > And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! > > Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received > the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like > it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even > received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! > Even Aesthetics and Politics > (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and > Adorno > (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks > quite intriguing. Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl Marx (1971)!!! > Again there is nothing but bounty out there! > > I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other > end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up > with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be > suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up > unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! > > Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is > always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the > present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new > can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret > that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who > is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca > post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. > Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or hypothetical? > > In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; > anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it > all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we > label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true > about this concept of what is real, at all? > > In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms > of mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am > not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. > Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates > this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. > > Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher > forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. > And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, > is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological processes > which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That > seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass > Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). > > As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective > pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, > and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically > mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of > concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put > them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or > lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well > enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated rather than explicated. > > Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might > be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might > want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as > well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the > neighborhood of lower psychological processes. > > I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry > about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I > sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." > Or something to that effect. > > Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to > kill off all the divas. Oh well.(feminist note-taking .) But let's > keep singing anyway. > > I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did > contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these > coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art > such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the times. > > In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and > situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is > displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we > can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on youtube, no less) . > Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or > premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, > we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel > through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the > means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) > > If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for > imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate > the present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings > *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! > > However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present > moment, still! > > And now still! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 17 09:45:34 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:45:34 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Form, Function, and Hope In-Reply-To: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> References: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert, Very helpful reminder of the notions "heteroprolepsis and autoprolepsi. Also the metaphors of "buds" that are not yet "fruit. Yes, we need to continually return to common metaphors and then translate to other terms such as above. On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Thanks for this, Robert. Good collection of thoughts and references about > prolepsis. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 17, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > > > Hi again Everyone! > > I recognize that most of what I write here is redundant and part of the > > given history of XCMA, but I think we need to continually renew our > > metalanguage by spelling out key concepts for newcomers and of course > our > > own students. Otherwise we could end up like the prisoners on Alcatraz > that > > had been so long together that they knew all knew each other's jokes, so > > all they needed to say was "number 39 ha, ha ". "Well number 6 back to > you". > > > > In terms of the praxis of hope and being within the zpd, I love Michael > > Cole's (1996) notion of prolepsis which is predicated on LSV's concept > of > > budding .Prolepsis is the perception of an anticipated or future > condition > > of development before it actually exists as an internalized state of > being. > > "The zone of proximal development defines those functions that have not > yet > > matured but are in the process of maturation, functions that will mature > > tomorrow but are currently in an embryonic state. These functions could > be > > termed the ?buds? or ?flowers? of development rather than the ?fruits? of > > development.? (Vygotsky, 1978, p.86)" *So hope of further > **development** is > > based on present "being".* For example at some point in life , probably > > all of us were told that we had real potential as a scholar or teacher . > > Prolepsis is a rare and extremely valuable tool in education if teachers > > and mentors can use it realistically as a means to help students move > into > > spaces that are truly within their grasp through interaction with those > who > > see can look at the bud and see the fruit until prolepsis becomes > > internalized by the student themselves. Boris Meshcheryakov (2007) calls > > this transition a process of moving from ?heteroprolepsis? to > > ?autoprolepsis? (p.166). > > > > An example of each would be when a parent hears their child humming on > key > > or reproducing entire tunes in various levels of complexity, they will of > > course, under normal conditions, encourage their offspring toward some > > future musical activity by reporting their performance to them with > > something like ?when you were two, you could hum all the notes to that > song > > and I know you will do quite well with piano lessons?.Meshcheryakov goes > on > > to relate an example of autoprolepsis in children?s role playing when the > > child imagines ?him or herself in various adults? roles (hunter, mother, > > teacher, etc.), imitating the elements of cultural forms of behavior? (p. > > 167). Many future and present teachers for example can recall a time when > > they used to pretend teach their siblings or maybe even their stuffed > > animals. But this role-play does not cease as we grow out of childhood. > > Student teaching, apprenticeships, GA's could all be zpd spaces with the > > potential of moving from heteroprolepsis to autoprolepsis. > > > > > > Cole, M.,(1996). *Cultural psychology: A once and future* *discipline.* > > Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. > > > > > > Meshcheryakov, B. G. (2007). Terminology in L. S. Vygotsky?s writings. In > > Daniels, H., Cole, M., Wertsch, J. V. (Eds.) *The Cambridge companion to > > Vygotsky*. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. > > > > > > Vygotsky, L.S. (1978). *Mind in society*. Cambridge, MA: Harvard > University > > Press. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > >> The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, dread, > >> and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". > >> The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this moment > can > >> we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. > >> This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which > >> develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". > >> So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" as > >> cultural-historical embedded practices. > >> > >> Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: > >> > >> "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent and > >> separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future > orientedness > >> - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, > >> recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and fuzzy > >> MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - coming > >> into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within > >> everyday life." > >> > >> I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to > >> Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" > >> > >> Larry > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Feb 17 10:31:38 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 18:31:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. Message-ID: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> This article seems connected to a few recent thematic pathways: http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/02/13/our-lost-cousins-neanderthals/O2cSNRBhPjcJYl76EoDAxK/story.html Most poignant for me was the theory that Neanderthals died out because of their thin population structure. Also there is evidence that many Europeans and Asians are 4% Neanderthal in their DNA material. Then the relationship we have with dogs may have really changed the game of competition. Wouldn't it be strange if in the distant future there were another species that we interbred with and then we became extinct to only exist in DNA material of that newer humanoid species? Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Feb 17 11:05:16 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:05:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> Re: Past and Present: There?s a book by Gerald Edelman: The Remembered Present. It?s a book about consciousness by a biologist who shared the Nobel prize in 1972 for physiology in medicine. I think the title gets at the constructive nature of the present. I like to think that the present is the sweet spot between past and future that can be sensed, but never grasped. Dialog, when it ?works?, captures that on stage presence of actors when they respond to one another in the moment. It?s not just theater, though theater is a great metaphor for it. Henry > On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Perhaps it is just what I am reading right now (Heidegger and Marcuse on technology - Marcuse by the way was a close associate of Bloch and they shared a Utopian vision of hope as moving beyond a class based society). But to get back to my point - is present something we can take from the past? The idea of present as an utterance taken from Bhaktin? Is technology changing our understanding of what the present means. I read posts in the present such as those from David and Annalise but they then they fall into the past as I move on to other things. Then I read a post that brings their words back into the present, in concrete terms (as Huw so often does), or in reflection on the current thinking of the poster (as Larry so often does) or simply as an extension of the conversation as in the post below from Helena. Do technologies allow the past to keep circling back into the present - and what does that mean for our concept of time? > > Notes from a very, very cold day in Columbus - can't wait for winter to be in the past. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 12:29 PM > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > I love the idea of the present as "the length of an utterance." So, how long is an utterance? I remember from The Dialogic Imagination that an utterance is the unit of speech that occurs between two other links in a dialog (a quick google search on this got me here) "in any sphere." > > Bakhtin certainly views dialogs as spanning vast eras, and views the individual turns in a dialog as spanning more than just one person's contribution. > > So if we think of a bounded thread of cultural history -- like feminism, for example, or slavery, or terrorism - as one link in a continuing dialog about each of these, we can talk about the "present" of feminism, the "present" of slavery, the "present" of terorism. We are all (or many of us) talking about feminism in a certain way today, which is different from the way we talked about in the previous bounce, or turn, or whatever you want to call it, of the dialog. So starting with when the current meaning of feminism started, and bounded in the past by when the previous meaning began to shift, we can talk about the "present" of the utterance of the dialog of feminism. This gives us something that we can look at and think about. > > Too loose for only one cup of coffee? It's a nice foggy day in the Bay Area, not enough to count as rain but at least it's damp. > > Obviously, I've just seen "She's Beautiful When She's Angry," a really good movie. > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:35 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > >> Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the >> boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? >> Michael Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an >> utterance. I have been thinking about it in terms of organic processes >> such as birthing and dying where each moment leads to a definitive >> outcome not just an anticipation but as close to certainty as we are >> capable of understanding. >> It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often >> feels like a pretty hopeless world. >> >> And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that >> while influenced by language are built on other modalities. >> >> Vera >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic >> >> David! >> >> You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice >> present! >> >> What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from >> youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list >> writ large! :) >> >> Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by >> asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling >> executive >> summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the >> present moment! >> >> And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! >> >> Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received >> the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like >> it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even >> received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! >> Even Aesthetics and Politics >> (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and >> Adorno >> (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks >> quite intriguing. Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl Marx (1971)!!! >> Again there is nothing but bounty out there! >> >> I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other >> end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up >> with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be >> suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up >> unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! >> >> Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is >> always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the >> present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new >> can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret >> that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who >> is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca >> post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. >> Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or hypothetical? >> >> In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; >> anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it >> all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we >> label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true >> about this concept of what is real, at all? >> >> In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms >> of mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am >> not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. >> Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates >> this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. >> >> Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher >> forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. >> And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, >> is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological processes >> which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That >> seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass >> Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). >> >> As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective >> pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, >> and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically >> mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of >> concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put >> them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or >> lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well >> enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated rather than explicated. >> >> Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might >> be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might >> want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as >> well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the >> neighborhood of lower psychological processes. >> >> I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry >> about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I >> sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." >> Or something to that effect. >> >> Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to >> kill off all the divas. Oh well.(feminist note-taking .) But let's >> keep singing anyway. >> >> I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did >> contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these >> coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art >> such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the times. >> >> In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and >> situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is >> displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we >> can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on youtube, no less) . >> Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or >> premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, >> we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel >> through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the >> means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) >> >> If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for >> imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate >> the present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings >> *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! >> >> However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present >> moment, still! >> >> And now still! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 17 12:15:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:15:48 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Form, Function, and Hope In-Reply-To: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> References: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> Message-ID: ?Re prolepsis: ? Goethe (in one translation) *All truly wise thoughts have been thoughts already thousands of times; but to make them truly ours, we must think them over again honestly, till they take root in our personal experience* mike On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Thanks for this, Robert. Good collection of thoughts and references about > prolepsis. > > H > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 17, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > > > Hi again Everyone! > > I recognize that most of what I write here is redundant and part of the > > given history of XCMA, but I think we need to continually renew our > > metalanguage by spelling out key concepts for newcomers and of course > our > > own students. Otherwise we could end up like the prisoners on Alcatraz > that > > had been so long together that they knew all knew each other's jokes, so > > all they needed to say was "number 39 ha, ha ". "Well number 6 back to > you". > > > > In terms of the praxis of hope and being within the zpd, I love Michael > > Cole's (1996) notion of prolepsis which is predicated on LSV's concept > of > > budding .Prolepsis is the perception of an anticipated or future > condition > > of development before it actually exists as an internalized state of > being. > > "The zone of proximal development defines those functions that have not > yet > > matured but are in the process of maturation, functions that will mature > > tomorrow but are currently in an embryonic state. These functions could > be > > termed the ?buds? or ?flowers? of development rather than the ?fruits? of > > development.? (Vygotsky, 1978, p.86)" *So hope of further > **development** is > > based on present "being".* For example at some point in life , probably > > all of us were told that we had real potential as a scholar or teacher . > > Prolepsis is a rare and extremely valuable tool in education if teachers > > and mentors can use it realistically as a means to help students move > into > > spaces that are truly within their grasp through interaction with those > who > > see can look at the bud and see the fruit until prolepsis becomes > > internalized by the student themselves. Boris Meshcheryakov (2007) calls > > this transition a process of moving from ?heteroprolepsis? to > > ?autoprolepsis? (p.166). > > > > An example of each would be when a parent hears their child humming on > key > > or reproducing entire tunes in various levels of complexity, they will of > > course, under normal conditions, encourage their offspring toward some > > future musical activity by reporting their performance to them with > > something like ?when you were two, you could hum all the notes to that > song > > and I know you will do quite well with piano lessons?.Meshcheryakov goes > on > > to relate an example of autoprolepsis in children?s role playing when the > > child imagines ?him or herself in various adults? roles (hunter, mother, > > teacher, etc.), imitating the elements of cultural forms of behavior? (p. > > 167). Many future and present teachers for example can recall a time when > > they used to pretend teach their siblings or maybe even their stuffed > > animals. But this role-play does not cease as we grow out of childhood. > > Student teaching, apprenticeships, GA's could all be zpd spaces with the > > potential of moving from heteroprolepsis to autoprolepsis. > > > > > > Cole, M.,(1996). *Cultural psychology: A once and future* *discipline.* > > Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. > > > > > > Meshcheryakov, B. G. (2007). Terminology in L. S. Vygotsky?s writings. In > > Daniels, H., Cole, M., Wertsch, J. V. (Eds.) *The Cambridge companion to > > Vygotsky*. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. > > > > > > Vygotsky, L.S. (1978). *Mind in society*. Cambridge, MA: Harvard > University > > Press. > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > >> The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, dread, > >> and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". > >> The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this moment > can > >> we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. > >> This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which > >> develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". > >> So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" as > >> cultural-historical embedded practices. > >> > >> Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: > >> > >> "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent and > >> separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future > orientedness > >> - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, > >> recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and fuzzy > >> MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - coming > >> into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within > >> everyday life." > >> > >> I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to > >> Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" > >> > >> Larry > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 17 12:25:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 12:25:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems like a new thread on temporality is emerging. To continue Henry's line of thought: Edelman quotes E.G. Boring, early/mid-20th century American psychologist on this topic, which Boring conducted research on...... To be aware of a conscious datum is to be sure that it has passed. The nearest actual approach to immediate introspection is early retrospection. The experience described, if there be any such, is always just past; the descriptionREMEMBERING THE FUTURE 249 is present. However, if I ask myself how I know the description is present, I find myself describing the processes that made up the description; the original describing is past. . . . Experience itself is at the end of the introspective rainbow. The rainbow may have an end and the end may be somewhere; yet I seem never to get to it. (Boring, 1933/1963, p. 228). I wrote on this topic a while back linking it to the organization of reading instruction, in case that might be of interest: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/People/MCole/Cole_Remembering%20the%20Future0001.pdf mike On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Re: Past and Present: > There?s a book by Gerald Edelman: The Remembered Present. It?s a book > about consciousness by a biologist who shared the Nobel prize in 1972 for > physiology in medicine. I think the title gets at the constructive nature > of the present. I like to think that the present is the sweet spot between > past and future that can be sensed, but never grasped. Dialog, when it > ?works?, captures that on stage presence of actors when they respond to one > another in the moment. It?s not just theater, though theater is a great > metaphor for it. > Henry > > > On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > > > Perhaps it is just what I am reading right now (Heidegger and Marcuse on > technology - Marcuse by the way was a close associate of Bloch and they > shared a Utopian vision of hope as moving beyond a class based society). > But to get back to my point - is present something we can take from the > past? The idea of present as an utterance taken from Bhaktin? Is > technology changing our understanding of what the present means. I read > posts in the present such as those from David and Annalise but they then > they fall into the past as I move on to other things. Then I read a post > that brings their words back into the present, in concrete terms (as Huw so > often does), or in reflection on the current thinking of the poster (as > Larry so often does) or simply as an extension of the conversation as in > the post below from Helena. Do technologies allow the past to keep > circling back into the present - and what does that mean for our concept of > time? > > > > Notes from a very, very cold day in Columbus - can't wait for winter to > be in the past. > > > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 12:29 PM > > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > > > I love the idea of the present as "the length of an utterance." So, how > long is an utterance? I remember from The Dialogic Imagination that an > utterance is the unit of speech that occurs between two other links in a > dialog (a quick google search on this got me here) "in any sphere." > > > > Bakhtin certainly views dialogs as spanning vast eras, and views the > individual turns in a dialog as spanning more than just one person's > contribution. > > > > So if we think of a bounded thread of cultural history -- like feminism, > for example, or slavery, or terrorism - as one link in a continuing dialog > about each of these, we can talk about the "present" of feminism, the > "present" of slavery, the "present" of terorism. We are all (or many of us) > talking about feminism in a certain way today, which is different from the > way we talked about in the previous bounce, or turn, or whatever you want > to call it, of the dialog. So starting with when the current meaning of > feminism started, and bounded in the past by when the previous meaning > began to shift, we can talk about the "present" of the utterance of the > dialog of feminism. This gives us something that we can look at and think > about. > > > > Too loose for only one cup of coffee? It's a nice foggy day in the Bay > Area, not enough to count as rain but at least it's damp. > > > > Obviously, I've just seen "She's Beautiful When She's Angry," a really > good movie. > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:35 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > > >> Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the > >> boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? > >> Michael Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an > >> utterance. I have been thinking about it in terms of organic processes > >> such as birthing and dying where each moment leads to a definitive > >> outcome not just an anticipation but as close to certainty as we are > >> capable of understanding. > >> It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often > >> feels like a pretty hopeless world. > >> > >> And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that > >> while influenced by language are built on other modalities. > >> > >> Vera > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar > >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > >> > >> David! > >> > >> You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice > >> present! > >> > >> What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from > >> youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list > >> writ large! :) > >> > >> Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by > >> asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling > >> executive > >> summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the > >> present moment! > >> > >> And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! > >> > >> Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received > >> the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like > >> it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even > >> received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! > >> Even Aesthetics and Politics > >> (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and > >> Adorno > >> (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks > >> quite intriguing. Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl > Marx (1971)!!! > >> Again there is nothing but bounty out there! > >> > >> I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other > >> end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up > >> with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be > >> suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up > >> unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! > >> > >> Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is > >> always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the > >> present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new > >> can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret > >> that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who > >> is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca > >> post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you > wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. > >> Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or > hypothetical? > >> > >> In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; > >> anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it > >> all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we > >> label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true > >> about this concept of what is real, at all? > >> > >> In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms > >> of mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am > >> not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. > >> Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates > >> this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. > >> > >> Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher > >> forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. > >> And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, > >> is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological processes > >> which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That > >> seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass > >> Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). > >> > >> As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective > >> pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, > >> and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically > >> mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of > >> concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put > >> them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or > >> lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well > >> enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated > rather than explicated. > >> > >> Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might > >> be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might > >> want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as > >> well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the > >> neighborhood of lower psychological processes. > >> > >> I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry > >> about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I > >> sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." > >> Or something to that effect. > >> > >> Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to > >> kill off all the divas. Oh well.(feminist note-taking .) But let's > >> keep singing anyway. > >> > >> I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did > >> contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these > >> coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art > >> such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the > times. > >> > >> In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and > >> situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is > >> displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we > >> can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on > youtube, no less) . > >> Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or > >> premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, > >> we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel > >> through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the > >> means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) > >> > >> If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for > >> imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate > >> the present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings > >> *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! > >> > >> However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present > >> moment, still! > >> > >> And now still! > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Annalisa > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Feb 17 14:00:11 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:00:11 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> Message-ID: Annalisa: Sorry if I filled up your in-box with opera--I thought the link was external, and voluntary. I guess I find links like that useful, because it's something that I can put on in the background while I do other things (writing lectures these days). I then foreground it when it has something important to say, e.g. when La Wally turns from being an inter-mental bit of verismo melodrama to a relentlessly intra-mental Gothic tragedy. It seems to me that this backgrounding-and-foregrounding is one way to handle the intellectual overload that I sometimes feel with xmca. But I confess that opera is also a way of dealing with intellectual pollution: the plethora of psychological poisons we have to imbibe when we use the internet, or ride a subway in downtown Seoul packed with perfectly normal human beings and lined with publicity for plastic surgery clinics in Gangnam which make them look like the "before" photos in those invidious "before" and "after" comparisons. Seeing teenagers acted by middle-aged divas and on-stage starving waifs enacted by off-stage millionaires is a good antidote in many ways; the outrages of opera are distanced by history; they don't cling to your thought processes the way that earworms do when you're grocery shopping, and when the music does stay in your mind, the experience is rather more pleasant than otherwise. Marshall Brown has an important book on "The Gothic Text" (Stanford UP, 2005) which begins with this familiar trope that intellectuals use where you try to introduce your theme by saying that it's really not what you think it is, in exactly three ways. So for example Gothic novels are not actually exciting (they often contain literally hundreds of pages of descriptions of natural scenery, which is where Chamonix comes into the picture). They aren't, actually, an English or even a German mode of writing (they were mostly by and about non-Germans wishing they were). And they aren't exclusively by women (on the contrary, the really daring contributions to the genre, now forgotten because they are so tame by our own standards, were all by men). But then Brown has to explain what a Gothic text actually IS, and the answer will surprise you (though it won't surprise Andy too much). A Gothic text is one which has read Kant as fiction, i.e., the way that Hegel reads him. Kant, you see, has a kind of brooding, Goth side of him; it is this side that will eventually cause him to acknowledge that his early critique of Swedenborg (titled, Gothically, "Dreams of a Spirit-Seer") was wrong: the philosophers are, in fact, Spirit-seers. More generally, Kant is part of a very general post-(French)-revolutionary "inward turn" which I think was the direct counterpart of the "inward turn" from "the personal is political" that reaches outward to from personal problems to social solutions to "the personal is political" which shuns social solutions in favor of individual problems. Vygotsky takes Tolstoy to task (in Psychology of Art) for complaining about music which you just sit and listen to. Music, for Tolstoy, is made to make you do something (march or at least dance), just as children's literature is not just there to entertain children--it has to convey certain world views to them, e.g. prepare them for the afterlife, or at least the after-childhood-life. I don't really think that Vygotsky was a "romantic scientist" but I certainly do think that his attitude to art was much more romantic (and therefore anti-modernist, given his context) than that of Tolstoy or even those of the modernists Vygotsky frequented. Vygotsky did believe in music which you just sit and listen to (e.g. Mahler rather than Mozart). For this, you need to see the composer and musicians as fellow hearers and not as band-leaders and followers; you need to take consciousness itself as your hero. Mike's observation is that the true topic of this thread is something like temporality. I agree with this, with the proviso that we define temporality not in relation to minutes or hours but in relation to moments of atemporality: there are certain modes of being in language that are far more temporal (e.g. dialogue) and others that are far more atemporal (narrative), just as there are moments in music that are about the interaction between persons (recitatives) and others which are about reflections within them (arias). Vygotsky likes to use the word "moment" when he describes development, but it's clear that he uses the word in an atemporal (Andy would say Hegelian) sense, to refer to a logical stage rather than something longer than a minute and shorter than an hour. In the same way, the Zoped is logical and not temporal; it's a logical zone between a person and a potential self and not a temporal distinction between "before" and "after" images, let alone a gap between normal human beings and surgically mutilated ones. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 February 2015 at 05:25, mike cole wrote: > Seems like a new thread on temporality is emerging. To continue Henry's > line of thought: > > Edelman quotes E.G. Boring, early/mid-20th century American psychologist on > this topic, which Boring conducted research on...... > > To be aware of a conscious datum is to be sure that it has passed. The > nearest actual approach to immediate introspection is early retrospection. > The experience described, if there be any such, is always just past; the > descriptionREMEMBERING THE FUTURE 249 is present. However, if I ask myself > how I know the description is present, I find myself describing the > processes that made up the description; the original describing is past. . > . . Experience itself is at the end of the introspective rainbow. The > rainbow may have an end and the end may be somewhere; yet I seem never to > get to it. (Boring, 1933/1963, p. 228). > > > I wrote on this topic a while back linking it to the organization of > reading instruction, in case that might be of interest: > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/People/MCole/Cole_Remembering%20the%20Future0001.pdf > > > mike > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:05 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > Re: Past and Present: > > There?s a book by Gerald Edelman: The Remembered Present. It?s a book > > about consciousness by a biologist who shared the Nobel prize in 1972 for > > physiology in medicine. I think the title gets at the constructive nature > > of the present. I like to think that the present is the sweet spot > between > > past and future that can be sensed, but never grasped. Dialog, when it > > ?works?, captures that on stage presence of actors when they respond to > one > > another in the moment. It?s not just theater, though theater is a great > > metaphor for it. > > Henry > > > > > On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Glassman, Michael > > wrote: > > > > > > Perhaps it is just what I am reading right now (Heidegger and Marcuse > on > > technology - Marcuse by the way was a close associate of Bloch and they > > shared a Utopian vision of hope as moving beyond a class based society). > > But to get back to my point - is present something we can take from the > > past? The idea of present as an utterance taken from Bhaktin? Is > > technology changing our understanding of what the present means. I read > > posts in the present such as those from David and Annalise but they then > > they fall into the past as I move on to other things. Then I read a post > > that brings their words back into the present, in concrete terms (as Huw > so > > often does), or in reflection on the current thinking of the poster (as > > Larry so often does) or simply as an extension of the conversation as in > > the post below from Helena. Do technologies allow the past to keep > > circling back into the present - and what does that mean for our concept > of > > time? > > > > > > Notes from a very, very cold day in Columbus - can't wait for winter to > > be in the past. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 12:29 PM > > > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > > > > > I love the idea of the present as "the length of an utterance." So, how > > long is an utterance? I remember from The Dialogic Imagination that an > > utterance is the unit of speech that occurs between two other links in a > > dialog (a quick google search on this got me here) "in any sphere." > > > > > > Bakhtin certainly views dialogs as spanning vast eras, and views the > > individual turns in a dialog as spanning more than just one person's > > contribution. > > > > > > So if we think of a bounded thread of cultural history -- like > feminism, > > for example, or slavery, or terrorism - as one link in a continuing > dialog > > about each of these, we can talk about the "present" of feminism, the > > "present" of slavery, the "present" of terorism. We are all (or many of > us) > > talking about feminism in a certain way today, which is different from > the > > way we talked about in the previous bounce, or turn, or whatever you want > > to call it, of the dialog. So starting with when the current meaning of > > feminism started, and bounded in the past by when the previous meaning > > began to shift, we can talk about the "present" of the utterance of the > > dialog of feminism. This gives us something that we can look at and think > > about. > > > > > > Too loose for only one cup of coffee? It's a nice foggy day in the Bay > > Area, not enough to count as rain but at least it's damp. > > > > > > Obviously, I've just seen "She's Beautiful When She's Angry," a really > > good movie. > > > > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:35 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > > > > >> Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the > > >> boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? > > >> Michael Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an > > >> utterance. I have been thinking about it in terms of organic processes > > >> such as birthing and dying where each moment leads to a definitive > > >> outcome not just an anticipation but as close to certainty as we are > > >> capable of understanding. > > >> It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often > > >> feels like a pretty hopeless world. > > >> > > >> And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that > > >> while influenced by language are built on other modalities. > > >> > > >> Vera > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa > Aguilar > > >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM > > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > >> > > >> David! > > >> > > >> You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a nice > > >> present! > > >> > > >> What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from > > >> youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list > > >> writ large! :) > > >> > > >> Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by > > >> asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling > > >> executive > > >> summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the > > >> present moment! > > >> > > >> And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! > > >> > > >> Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received > > >> the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would like > > >> it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even > > >> received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! > > >> Even Aesthetics and Politics > > >> (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and > > >> Adorno > > >> (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks > > >> quite intriguing. Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl > > Marx (1971)!!! > > >> Again there is nothing but bounty out there! > > >> > > >> I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the other > > >> end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things up > > >> with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be > > >> suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up > > >> unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! > > >> > > >> Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is > > >> always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the > > >> present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new > > >> can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret > > >> that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who > > >> is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca > > >> post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you > > wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. > > >> Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or > > hypothetical? > > >> > > >> In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not real; > > >> anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. So it > > >> all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real what we > > >> label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything true > > >> about this concept of what is real, at all? > > >> > > >> In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different forms > > >> of mediating between lower psychological function and the higher. I am > > >> not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. > > >> Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates > > >> this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. > > >> > > >> Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher > > >> forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. > > >> And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But then, > > >> is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological processes > > >> which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why not? That > > >> seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la Weapons of Mass > > >> Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). > > >> > > >> As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective > > >> pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, > > >> and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically > > >> mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of > > >> concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put > > >> them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or > > >> lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well > > >> enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated > > rather than explicated. > > >> > > >> Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might > > >> be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might > > >> want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as > > >> well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the > > >> neighborhood of lower psychological processes. > > >> > > >> I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry > > >> about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of "I > > >> sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." > > >> Or something to that effect. > > >> > > >> Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to > > >> kill off all the divas. Oh well.(feminist note-taking .) But let's > > >> keep singing anyway. > > >> > > >> I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did > > >> contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these > > >> coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art > > >> such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the > > times. > > >> > > >> In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and > > >> situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is > > >> displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we > > >> can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on > > youtube, no less) . > > >> Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or > > >> premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, > > >> we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel > > >> through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the > > >> means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) > > >> > > >> If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for > > >> imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to eradicate > > >> the present moment to explain these different kind of imaginings > > >> *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! > > >> > > >> However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present > > >> moment, still! > > >> > > >> And now still! > > >> > > >> Kind regards, > > >> > > >> Annalisa > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From helen.harper@bigpond.com Tue Feb 17 15:03:36 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 08:33:36 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> Message-ID: <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> Thanks Annalisa - I enjoyed reading this with my breakfast! Except this sentence: 'Higher population density leads to ?.. the ability to... express abstract thought.? ? I think I know what she was probably meaning (did she mean that people living in complex dense social systems are more likely to develop systems for writing or coding ways of thinking and seeing the world, and that these get passed on intergenerationally?), but where?s the evidence that this has to do with the expression of abstract thought? I could get cranky at a silly example and leave it at that, but I think this is an excellent example of the dangers to crossing too many disciplinary boundaries (archaeology and genetics to semiotics and cognitive theory) without doing the necessary reality checks along the way. We have some nice reporting on what we can infer from genetic information, assuming the inferences are correct. But then we use evidence of population density to leap into unsubstantiated statements about relationships between social structure and thinking. I wonder if this isn?t pretty well right back to what people were doing in the nineteenth century. Anyway, thanks again for an interesting piece, Helen > On 18 Feb 2015, at 4:01 am, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > This article seems connected to a few recent thematic pathways: > > http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/02/13/our-lost-cousins-neanderthals/O2cSNRBhPjcJYl76EoDAxK/story.html > > > Most poignant for me was the theory that Neanderthals died out because of their thin population structure. > > > Also there is evidence that many Europeans and Asians are 4% Neanderthal in their DNA material. > > > Then the relationship we have with dogs may have really changed the game of competition. > > > Wouldn't it be strange if in the distant future there were another species that we interbred with and then we became extinct to only exist in DNA material of that newer humanoid species? > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Feb 17 19:37:23 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:37:23 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Harvard Psychology teaching positions for 2014-15 due March 15th In-Reply-To: <7C1C31AD283BBA429FC63FC0952CB0061E162CFA@HARVANDMBX03.fasmail.priv> References: <7C1C31AD283BBA429FC63FC0952CB0061E162CFA@HARVANDMBX03.fasmail.priv> Message-ID: Jobs n stuff ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Chivers, Laura Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 5:17 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Harvard Psychology teaching positions for 2014-15 due March 15th To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" The Harvard Psychology Department is currently accepting applications for teaching positions in Cambridge, MA for 2015-16: *FULL-TIME HARVARD COLLEGE FELLOWS* The Psychology Department participates in the Harvard College Fellows Program for *new or recent PhDs.* This position consists of approximately 75% teaching and 25% research under the supervision of a faculty member in the department. *Applications for this program are due by March 15th (review beginning Feb 15th),* and applications are handled centrally rather than through the department. Late applications will not be accepted unless positions remain open after an initial round. Please see program information (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~facaff/cfp/) as well as the Psychology description (posted under Social Sciences here: https://academicpositions.harvard.edu/postings/5954 for more information and application instructions. *PART-TIME LECTURERS* Part-time lecturers are sought for the upcoming 2015-2016 academic year in the Department of Psychology. The Department is particularly interested in candidates who could teach an undergraduate methods course or advanced undergraduate courses in Clinical Science/Abnormal Psychology, Social Psychology, or Developmental Psychology in one or both semesters. Applications for these positions must be submitted online; please see the full job description and application information at https://academicpositions.harvard.edu/postings/6002. Application review for these positions began February 15th and will continue through all applications submitted by March 15th. Applications submitted after this date will be considered if openings remain. If you have questions, please send them to: psychology@wjh.harvard.edu, with your *last name* *and position you are applying for* in the subject line. Harvard University is an equal opportunity employer and all qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability status, protected veteran status, or any other characteristic protected by law. ****************************** _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Feb 17 20:18:31 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 04:18:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu>, <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> Hi Helen! Actually, in the context of this list, it is that higher psychological processes are developed socially. That was the reason that I posted it to the list! :) It means that Vygotsky is getting out there! Glad you enjoyed it! Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Feb 17 21:54:04 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 05:54:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1424238843669.10299@unm.edu> Hi David! No apology necessary! I actually watched a little of your opera. But I thought it was funny that it was a 2 hour opera following a 600+ book. And also...we are long posters! And! And! And! This thread is about temporality! :) Unfortunately I am not a multi-tasker, I fail miserably at that. If I watch opera I must watch it with all five senses. Unless it's a recording then with all my ears, while perhaps drawing or journaling. Unless I decide to lip synch and my living room becomes my stage, then it's all five senses again. The most multitasking I can do is maybe read a few papers and a few pages in a few books in short spurts, to put one down and pick up another until eventually I've read all what I set out to read. This never happens that I read what I set out to read, however. [An aside: I wonder if others would share their reading habits? How do you read, paper or pixels? And when do you read? And how do you like to read?] But actually I cherish opera David, I have fallen away from it for the past several years, but would gladly return were I near an opera house. I really like your observation of opera for cleaning the mind, that sounds really fab, and I think you are right. I love the idea of Madame Butterfly as my ear worm! :) Silky ears! Pertaining to the Verisimo (and plastic surgery which I find somewhat gothic, actually), I have always considered the Gothic to be dark and brooding, yes, but because of a lack of hope in changing times where there is nothing but uncertainty, especially if one is an aristocrat. Heads rolling and all that. I don't know if it is possible for anything modern to be gothic, meaning 20th century. Is there? I can only think the of the Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, and Nosferatu. There's Film Noire which is dark, but that doesn't seem brooding or full of self loathing, like the silent pictures from Germany. Hitchcock maybe, but then again, he was German too! Is it possible though, that Vygotsky seemed romantic because when he wrote Psychology of Art he was at the beginning of his career and not the end? Intriguing idea to take consciousness as my hero! Say more on that? Atemporality vs temporality has to do with inability to measure versus ability to measure, in that something that is atemporal is neither an instant nor an eternity(though might be both) since within the atemporal nothing seems to change, time stands still. The present moment can have that aspect of complete stillness. Temporality, on the other metronome, is measurable, it has a rhythm perhaps. There is a beginning a middle and an end (narrative?), but that also can be in the present moment. What differs is there is a sense of time passing, like sitting in a train with the landscape scuttling by, or watching Koyaanisqatsi. Next: I'm thinking of an old-fashioned slide lantern that spins on its vertical axis with the picture is viewed through a slot which remains stationary. The animation occurs from the images spinning past the slot with the lantern projecting that image onto a far wall. We don't see the images coming or the images past, just the one projecting outward from the slot. My interpretation of The Vygotsky Moment is the moment of change, but this may not at all be instantaneous; it develops, it may be logical as you say. But how do we measure change if not from a stationary point in time? Yep, you guessed it, the present moment! I do not know any point in time that isn't stationary, except the present moment. If there is a sense of change in the present moment, that change is based upon attention, not upon time. So that's why I can be sitting here and then suddenly go to the Bahamas and then come back and realized I've burned my popcorn. Nothing happened to the present moment, just my attention shifted. See and this is the thing! In modern cultures, typically, the present moment passes us by because frequently we do not attend to it. However, it never leaves us, rather, we leave it with our attention even though we are in it (always), it is our minds that are thinking of the past or of the future, but rarely tending to in the present. In cultures that are more intertwined with nature or being in relationship with others without being in a hurry, I find the opposite is the case, that the present moment is all there is. There is a lot of leisure in this conception of time, or this attending to time. What is interesting about Verismo is that it is like a layering of concentric lanterns that provides a sort of psychedelic experience in which my attention is asking, "Will the real present moment please stand up?" And then all of them do (because there's only one). Kind regards, Annalisa From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Feb 17 23:05:47 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:05:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> Message-ID: >From a mathematical point of view, there are some interesting paradoxes associated with the notion of a moment in time. Here's a particularly nice one building on the race between Achilles and the tortoise, the latter having been given a head start. David The Trojan Fly: Achilles overtakes the tortoise and runs on into the sunset, exulting. As he does so, a fly leaves the tortoise's back, flies to Achilles, then returns to the tortoise, and continues to oscillate between the two as the distance between them grows, changing direction instantaneously each time. Suppose the tortoise travels at 1 mph, Achilles at 5 mph, and the fly at 10 mph. An hour later, where is the fly, and which way is it facing? We can find the answer by running the scenario backward, letting the three participants reverse their motions until all three are again abreast. The right answer is the one that returns the fly to the tortoise's back just as Achilles passes it. The paradox is that all solutions do this: Place the fly anywhere between Achilles and the tortoise, run the race backward, and the fly will arrive satisfactorily on the tortoise's back at just the right moment. [The reason this is so is because there are an infinite numbers of zigs and zags in the fly's path--you can get a sense of the infinite oscillation as you move the actors backward in your mind ever closer to the point at which the Achilles and the tortoise are abreast of one another.] This is puzzling. The conditions of the problem allow us to predict exactly where Achilles and the tortoise will be after an hour's running. But the fly's position admits of an infinite number of solutions. (From University of Arizona philosopher Wesley Salmon's Space, Time, and Motion, after an idea by A.K. Austin.) -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:05 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic Re: Past and Present: There's a book by Gerald Edelman: The Remembered Present. It's a book about consciousness by a biologist who shared the Nobel prize in 1972 for physiology in medicine. I think the title gets at the constructive nature of the present. I like to think that the present is the sweet spot between past and future that can be sensed, but never grasped. Dialog, when it "works", captures that on stage presence of actors when they respond to one another in the moment. It's not just theater, though theater is a great metaphor for it. Henry > On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:38 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Perhaps it is just what I am reading right now (Heidegger and Marcuse on technology - Marcuse by the way was a close associate of Bloch and they shared a Utopian vision of hope as moving beyond a class based society). But to get back to my point - is present something we can take from the past? The idea of present as an utterance taken from Bhaktin? Is technology changing our understanding of what the present means. I read posts in the present such as those from David and Annalise but they then they fall into the past as I move on to other things. Then I read a post that brings their words back into the present, in concrete terms (as Huw so often does), or in reflection on the current thinking of the poster (as Larry so often does) or simply as an extension of the conversation as in the post below from Helena. Do technologies allow the past to keep circling back into the present - and what does that mean for our concept of time? > > Notes from a very, very cold day in Columbus - can't wait for winter to be in the past. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 12:29 PM > To: vygotsky@unm.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic > > I love the idea of the present as "the length of an utterance." So, how long is an utterance? I remember from The Dialogic Imagination that an utterance is the unit of speech that occurs between two other links in a dialog (a quick google search on this got me here) "in any sphere." > > Bakhtin certainly views dialogs as spanning vast eras, and views the individual turns in a dialog as spanning more than just one person's contribution. > > So if we think of a bounded thread of cultural history -- like feminism, for example, or slavery, or terrorism - as one link in a continuing dialog about each of these, we can talk about the "present" of feminism, the "present" of slavery, the "present" of terorism. We are all (or many of us) talking about feminism in a certain way today, which is different from the way we talked about in the previous bounce, or turn, or whatever you want to call it, of the dialog. So starting with when the current meaning of feminism started, and bounded in the past by when the previous meaning began to shift, we can talk about the "present" of the utterance of the dialog of feminism. This gives us something that we can look at and think about. > > Too loose for only one cup of coffee? It's a nice foggy day in the Bay Area, not enough to count as rain but at least it's damp. > > Obviously, I've just seen "She's Beautiful When She's Angry," a really good movie. > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:35 PM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > >> Philosophers and related folks have great difficulty in defining the >> boundaries of the present; when does it start? when does it end? >> Michael Silverstein, a linguist, once defined it as the length of an >> utterance. I have been thinking about it in terms of organic >> processes such as birthing and dying where each moment leads to a >> definitive outcome not just an anticipation but as close to certainty >> as we are capable of understanding. >> It is pleasant to discuss the "principle of hope" in what so often >> feels like a pretty hopeless world. >> >> And I agree with Annalisa that there are higher mental processes that >> while influenced by language are built on other modalities. >> >> Vera >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa >> Aguilar >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 10:07 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic >> >> David! >> >> You made me chuckle in the presentation of your opera which was a >> nice present! >> >> What was also amusing is the posting of a 2+ hour opera (from >> youtube), which makes the trend of posting large objects to the list >> writ large! :) >> >> Of course I do not mean to substitute the kitsch for the original, by >> asking for an orientation to the work of Bloch (what you are calling >> executive >> summaries) Just access, as a starting point, a "you are here" in the >> present moment! >> >> And by the way I'm still reading the Marvakis paper! >> >> Also, I'll have you know that by solicitous magic carpets I received >> the second volume of Bloch in my email box and so if anyone would >> like it please email me. Technology can be magical after all! I even >> received the Principle of Hope in German (Das Prinzip Hoffnung)!!!! >> Even Aesthetics and Politics >> (1977) which includes essays by Bloch, Brecht, Benjamin, Luk?cs, and >> Adorno >> (111 pages) in a kind of dialogic presentation of writing which looks >> quite intriguing. Last, the piece de la resistance, Bloch's On Karl Marx (1971)!!! >> Again there is nothing but bounty out there! >> >> I am sorry that Bergson would bar you from the men's room at the >> other end of the mall! But it would be like a dualist to split things >> up with distances; dualists do that kind of long division. I would be >> suspicious of Catholics for the reason and that moment they spring up >> unannounced in Monty Python skits, stealing the show! >> >> Moi, I am still (perhaps naively) of the conception that Vygotsky is >> always referencing the moment of change which can only be in the >> present moment, he is always open to possibility that something new >> can happen. This is the aesthetic experience. Some might interpret >> that anticipation as hope, I'm OK with that. But you are the one who >> is saying (in the present moment -- that is in relation to this xmca >> post as I am reading it now, which is a different now than when you wrote it) that Bergson is accepted by Vygotsky. >> Now, for my edification, is this historical or theoretical or hypothetical? >> >> In Vedic thought, we would say that anything that changes is not >> real; anything that does not change is the only thing that is real. >> So it all depends upon how one defines what is real. Is what is real >> what we label as real? (Ceci n'est pas un pipe.) Or is there anything >> true about this concept of what is real, at all? >> >> In terms of individuation, apparently there are likely different >> forms of mediating between lower psychological function and the >> higher. I am not persuaded that higher ones are solely linguistically mediated. >> Though there may be a kind of language, or pattern which negotiates >> this mediation. I believe there is plural room for other plural forms. >> >> Vygotsky was exceptionally gifted in linguistically mediated higher >> forms and so he was sensitive to seeing that in the world, in others. >> And these were socially mediated, so I am not refuting that. But >> then, is it not possible to have higher forms of psychological >> processes which are not linguistically mediated? If not, then why >> not? That seems like attempting to prove a false positive (? la >> Weapons of Mass Destruction leading to a Mission Accomplished). >> >> As someone who thinks in metaphorical pictures, as well as "affective >> pictures," I don't experience these as lower psychological functions, >> and so perhaps there is too much privileging of "linguistically >> mediated" higher ones. Frequently I might have an immediacy of >> concepts as derived conclusions, but it is difficult to actually put >> them into words. But this poignancy isn't less potent thinking (or >> lower), in fact it is the case that the words just do not serve well >> enough to explain the form of thinking. The meaning is implicated rather than explicated. >> >> Mozart was not a genius of words, but perhaps a genius of what might >> be called "musical pictures" or "musical sentences" however one might >> want to represent that. We know that Einstein imagined in pictures as >> well, I would protest to describe his thinking as happening in the >> neighborhood of lower psychological processes. >> >> I always loved in the movie Australia, (OK it is Hollywood... sorry >> about that), the aboriginal notion (as represented in the movie) of >> "I sing you to me," or, "You are nothing if you do not have your song." >> Or something to that effect. >> >> Which definitely seems to apply to Opera, but in the West, tends to >> kill off all the divas. Oh well.(feminist note-taking .) But let's >> keep singing anyway. >> >> I have commented in the past that the scientific revolution did >> contribute to the dualism of the rational and the affective and these >> coincide with Realism and Gothicism in art. This is why I find art >> such a great touchstone, because it is the evidence of the MIND of the times. >> >> In terms of your analysis of Wally's mind, any of these positions and >> situations cannot but happen in the present moment, even if it is >> displayed in an opera (as the staging of an imagination), because we >> can only imagine in the present moment while watching the opera (on youtube, no less) . >> Imagination of the past is a memory, in the future an insight or >> premonition, in sleep a dream. Despite these mental states in motion, >> we can never leave the present moment even if our minds astro-travel >> through time-traveling machines called books, which offer to us the >> means of visiting other people's imaginations! :) >> >> If you disagree about the present moment being the only location for >> imagining (past or future), then please explain to me how to >> eradicate the present moment to explain these different kind of >> imaginings >> *without* the present involved? I welcome that explanation! >> >> However I cannot even imagine that because, here I am in the present >> moment, still! >> >> And now still! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From helen.harper@bigpond.com Wed Feb 18 04:16:43 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 21:46:43 +0930 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> <, > <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> Message-ID: Hi Annalisa, agreed. I was thinking about societies where I?ve worked and am a bit familiar with, such as those of the Australian central desert regions. They have been around for millennia, even though the landscape supports only numbers of people, and the population traditionally was spread very thinly over the landscape. But there?s no shortage of abstract thinking in those societies. I guess the idea that societies get bigger and denser, and this correlates with the development of higher psychological processes - this struck me as being somewhat Euro-centric. cheers, Helen > On 18 Feb 2015, at 1:48 pm, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi Helen! > > Actually, in the context of this list, it is that higher psychological processes are developed socially. That was the reason that I posted it to the list! :) > > It means that Vygotsky is getting out there! > > Glad you enjoyed it! > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Feb 18 09:57:32 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 10:57:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> <, > <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> Message-ID: Helen and Annalisa, If nothing else, the density, associated with cities (supported by agriculture), seems to be maximally ?disruptive?. The pace and the multitasking. Whew! Caffeinated. I associate it with turn TAKING amongst the jet sets of the cities, contrasted to the slow pace of dialog amongst my Navajo peeps with less overlapping of talk. I can?t decide how this maps on to basic and higher order processes cognizing, nor how this relates to normative (aesthetic and ethical) issues, though I think it?s important to think about. Henry > On Feb 18, 2015, at 5:16 AM, Helen Harper wrote: > > > > Hi Annalisa, > agreed. > > I was thinking about societies where I?ve worked and am a bit familiar with, such as those of the Australian central desert regions. They have been around for millennia, even though the landscape supports only numbers of people, and the population traditionally was spread very thinly over the landscape. But there?s no shortage of abstract thinking in those societies. > > I guess the idea that societies get bigger and denser, and this correlates with the development of higher psychological processes - this struck me as being somewhat Euro-centric. > > cheers, > Helen > > >> On 18 Feb 2015, at 1:48 pm, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Helen! >> >> Actually, in the context of this list, it is that higher psychological processes are developed socially. That was the reason that I posted it to the list! :) >> >> It means that Vygotsky is getting out there! >> >> Glad you enjoyed it! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Feb 18 10:06:18 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:06:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> <, > <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1F643CA2-1C10-490B-A000-A9D4D2DA8E3A@gmail.com> I should add that not all city dwellers are alike, anymore than all agricultural or hunt-and-gather societies are alike! So density is more determining than determinant. Henry > On Feb 18, 2015, at 5:16 AM, Helen Harper wrote: > > > > Hi Annalisa, > agreed. > > I was thinking about societies where I?ve worked and am a bit familiar with, such as those of the Australian central desert regions. They have been around for millennia, even though the landscape supports only numbers of people, and the population traditionally was spread very thinly over the landscape. But there?s no shortage of abstract thinking in those societies. > > I guess the idea that societies get bigger and denser, and this correlates with the development of higher psychological processes - this struck me as being somewhat Euro-centric. > > cheers, > Helen > > >> On 18 Feb 2015, at 1:48 pm, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Helen! >> >> Actually, in the context of this list, it is that higher psychological processes are developed socially. That was the reason that I posted it to the list! :) >> >> It means that Vygotsky is getting out there! >> >> Glad you enjoyed it! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 18 11:07:34 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:07:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: <1F643CA2-1C10-490B-A000-A9D4D2DA8E3A@gmail.com> References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> <, > <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> , <1F643CA2-1C10-490B-A000-A9D4D2DA8E3A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1424286453168.27167@unm.edu> Hi Helen, Henry, and esteemed others, I agree that many of us might easily to fall into Euro-centric thinking about this, and that should be resisted. But perhaps the point here is not about looking at one cause but a society of causes. :) For example, the socialization of dogs and humans appear to be one development as well. That is the society we have with another species. We can consider cats and cows and mules and horses and oxen and chickens and pigs too, even elephants and monkeys! I don't think the idea is to say that Neanderthals were stupid (that they couldn't think abstractly), which I think the article points out, but that the development of Homo Sapiens were more rapid because of population density *at that point in history* AND that the thin population structure of Neanderthals made them a more vulnerable group. All you have to do is think about Chris McCandless story Into The Wild to see how easy it is to be vulnerable and not survive the elements. Some people would call him stupid for doing that, but isn't it more from creating a thin population structure of one, albeit unprepared, individual, than wanting to be out in the wild? In a certain way we are all still out in the wild. What I liked about the article is that it gently asks us to consider our own vulnerabilities and their social causes. That we, like the Neanderthal, are not immune to dying out. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 18 11:22:08 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:22:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1424287328302.92621@unm.edu> Hi David, I am terrible at math word problems! As a result I got dizzy thinking about infinite trips by the Trojan Fly. Is the answer that the fly is facing up? In one hour the tortoise and Achilles are 4 miles apart. But I can't determine where the fly would be because it is flying back and forth at 10 mph. Knowing the life of flies, wouldn't it be likely to be dead from flying that fast for that long? Kind regards, Annalisa On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 12:05 AM David H Kirshner wrote: >From a mathematical point of view, there are some interesting paradoxes associated with the notion of a moment in time. Here's a particularly nice one building on the race between Achilles and the tortoise, the latter having been given a head start. David The Trojan Fly: Achilles overtakes the tortoise and runs on into the sunset, exulting. As he does so, a fly leaves the tortoise's back, flies to Achilles, then returns to the tortoise, and continues to oscillate between the two as the distance between them grows, changing direction instantaneously each time. Suppose the tortoise travels at 1 mph, Achilles at 5 mph, and the fly at 10 mph. An hour later, where is the fly, and which way is it facing? We can find the answer by running the scenario backward, letting the three participants reverse their motions until all three are again abreast. The right answer is the one that returns the fly to the tortoise's back just as Achilles passes it. The paradox is that all solutions do this: Place the fly anywhere between Achilles and the tortoise, run the race backward, and the fly will arrive satisfactorily on the tortoise's back at just the right moment. [The reason this is so is because there are an infinite numbers of zigs and zags in the fly's path--you can get a sense of the infinite oscillation as you move the actors backward in your mind ever closer to the point at which the Achilles and the tortoise are abreast of one another.] This is puzzling. The conditions of the problem allow us to predict exactly where Achilles and the tortoise will be after an hour's running. But the fly's position admits of an infinite number of solutions. (From University of Arizona philosopher Wesley Salmon's Space, Time, and Motion, after an idea by A.K. Austin.) From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Feb 18 11:53:06 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <1424287328302.92621@unm.edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> <, > <1424287328302.92621@unm.edu> Message-ID: <31C109CB-52BD-4853-B49A-5E2E5ABC5C16@gmail.com> David, I was going to hide my ignorance, but Annalisa has provided cover: I am assuming that the zigs and zags in the word problem indicate that the fly need NOT fly in a straight line between tortoise and hare. Is that what makes for an infinite number of solutions? Henry > On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi David, > > I am terrible at math word problems! As a result I got dizzy thinking about infinite trips by the Trojan Fly. > > Is the answer that the fly is facing up? > > In one hour the tortoise and Achilles are 4 miles apart. But I can't determine where the fly would be because it is flying back and forth at 10 mph. Knowing the life of flies, wouldn't it be likely to be dead from flying that fast for that long? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 12:05 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > >> From a mathematical point of view, there are some interesting paradoxes associated with the notion of a moment in time. Here's a particularly nice one building on the race between Achilles and the tortoise, the latter having been given a head start. > David > > The Trojan Fly: > > Achilles overtakes the tortoise and runs on into the sunset, exulting. As he does so, a fly leaves the tortoise's back, flies to Achilles, then returns to the tortoise, and continues to oscillate between the two as the distance between them grows, changing direction instantaneously each time. Suppose the tortoise travels at 1 mph, Achilles at 5 mph, and the fly at 10 mph. An hour later, where is the fly, and which way is it facing? > > We can find the answer by running the scenario backward, letting the three participants reverse their motions until all three are again abreast. The right answer is the one that returns the fly to the tortoise's back just as Achilles passes it. The paradox is that all solutions do this: Place the fly anywhere between Achilles and the tortoise, run the race backward, and the fly will arrive satisfactorily on the tortoise's back at just the right moment. [The reason this is so is because there are an infinite numbers of zigs and zags in the fly's path--you can get a sense of the infinite oscillation as you move the actors backward in your mind ever closer to the point at which the Achilles and the tortoise are abreast of one another.] > > This is puzzling. The conditions of the problem allow us to predict exactly where Achilles and the tortoise will be after an hour's running. But the fly's position admits of an infinite number of solutions. > (From University of Arizona philosopher Wesley Salmon's Space, Time, and Motion, after an idea by A.K. Austin.) > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Feb 18 12:23:36 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:23:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Every era seems to find the Neanderthal it needs. In-Reply-To: References: <1424197897315.67954@unm.edu> <, > <9E935471-B9B5-40AB-A664-B2030079C51D@bigpond.com> <1424233111561.40807@unm.edu> Message-ID: <73D21E65-23A1-45C5-B3DF-0677868C9A69@gmail.com> Peeps, And, at the risk of dwelling insufferably on this density thing (call me dense), I have to mention that I have been subbing today in classrooms of 6th graders here at Native American Community Academy in Albuquerque. (My retirement gig.) They?re all nutso, but one of the classes had 27, the rest only about 10. I spent all of my time in the densely populated classroom doing classroom management. The others I could actually enjoy the kiddos and engage them in a dialog about the topic: the ancient world, specifically of the Indian subcontinent. I am reminded of Mike?s article, Remembering the Future, in which he contrasts big Japanese and small American kindergartens. So, density is determining, but not determinant. Cultural psychology! Henry > On Feb 18, 2015, at 5:16 AM, Helen Harper wrote: > > > > Hi Annalisa, > agreed. > > I was thinking about societies where I?ve worked and am a bit familiar with, such as those of the Australian central desert regions. They have been around for millennia, even though the landscape supports only numbers of people, and the population traditionally was spread very thinly over the landscape. But there?s no shortage of abstract thinking in those societies. > > I guess the idea that societies get bigger and denser, and this correlates with the development of higher psychological processes - this struck me as being somewhat Euro-centric. > > cheers, > Helen > > >> On 18 Feb 2015, at 1:48 pm, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >> >> Hi Helen! >> >> Actually, in the context of this list, it is that higher psychological processes are developed socially. That was the reason that I posted it to the list! :) >> >> It means that Vygotsky is getting out there! >> >> Glad you enjoyed it! >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Feb 18 15:51:22 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:51:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <1424238843669.10299@unm.edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> <1424238843669.10299@unm.edu> Message-ID: There are a number of under-theorized areas in CHAT, and one way to recognize them is the way through subject lines on xmca. This method is not entirely fool-proof, because people rightly develop enthusiasms for odd topics that are actually pretty well theorized in Vygotsky's work (development itself being one of them). But when we have subject lines on imagination, on projects, on consciousness, on volition, and on ethics/politics that run and run and run, it seems to me that somebodies are trying to tell us something. It seems to me that the issue of temporality is excellently theorized in CHAT, at least compared to neighboring disciplines who are still struggling to distinguish microgenesis from ontogenesis, or micro and ontogenesis from sociogenesis, or all of the above from phylogenesis. However, there is a closely related issue which seems less so, and which does tend to run and run in our subject lines. Let me put it this way: when does a collaborative project shift from being interpersonal to being social, and what does this mean for the role of consciousness, volition, ethics/politics and whether we divide the latter with a slash or with a dash? I take it that when we look at a language as a whole--that is, the some total of all linguistic acts, whether they be inter-mental or intra-mental, whether they be past, present, or future, carried out by a given speech community during the rise and fall of a language--the difference between sense and significance (that is, between actual meaning-making and potential meaning-making) disappears, or at least recedes indefinitely. This is really just a way of saying that language use is always, in the final analysis, concrete and material, not speculative and hypothetical. Whether, for example, the ancient Aztecs could have written "Fifty Shades of Grey" if they had not been wiped out by Cortes and his men does not seem a line of enquiry worth pursuing. But when we look at literary genres--that is, text types and the registers of language that can be drawn from them, such as verismo, or the Gothic, or nineteenth century romaniticism in general--the distinction seems much more relevant, because playing the game changes the rules: particular acts of artistic sense-making expand or renew the meaning-making potential of the genre and leave a kind of meta-text to be carried on as a discourse by other artists. Catalani does something with verismo and with the Gothic that was really not done previously, and the step he takes is noticeably in our direction. The opera doesn't really have good guys or bad guys: La Wally loves Hagenbach in part because he beats her father, La Wally's attempt to murder her lover is both justified and not, La Wally's relationship with Walter is both sexual and chaste (on the crucial night of Hagenbach's murder, Walter asks her if he can spend the night). More, although the opera does have focal characters, we can easily imagine operas around almost any one of the other characters--even Afra, the bar-maid. If you have ten minutes to spare for some breathtakingly beautiful music, just take a moment to compare Wally's "Eh ben? Andro lontan " ("Well, I'm outta here") at 32:00 with Afra's "No, con l'amor" ("The heart wants what it wants") at 45:30. The former is a mega-hit that every ambitious soprano without exception has to sing and record; the latter is utterly ignored by the repertoire as far as I know. Perhaps that is just because Afra's song isn't an aria but a kind of collaborative project--Walter and Hagenbach turn it into a trio at 48:00, and the Old Toymaker comes in almost half a bar later, showing that it is inter-generational. At the same time, each member of the trio has a very different interpretation of the song: Afra is warning Hagenbach not to play with Wally's feelings, Hagenbach thinks Afra is flirting with him, the Old Toymaker is thinking nostalgic thoughts about a love-life now drowned in beer suds, and Walter just wants to have fun, which for the moment means singing a song whose concept he has not grasped at all (but then nobody else has fully grasped it yet, not even Afra). Collaborative projects, by definition, cannot have have a single guiding consciousness, or at least cannot have a single psychology, else they cease to be collaborative. But at a certain point they also cease to have several different consciousnesses, and attain a generalized, abstract consciousness (Andy calls this a consciousness a concept; I think of it as a potential culture). The problem is precisely a temporal one: when? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 February 2015 at 14:54, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi David! > > No apology necessary! I actually watched a little of your opera. But I > thought it was funny that it was a 2 hour opera following a 600+ book. And > also...we are long posters! And! And! And! This thread is about > temporality! :) > > Unfortunately I am not a multi-tasker, I fail miserably at that. If I > watch opera I must watch it with all five senses. Unless it's a recording > then with all my ears, while perhaps drawing or journaling. Unless I decide > to lip synch and my living room becomes my stage, then it's all five senses > again. > > The most multitasking I can do is maybe read a few papers and a few pages > in a few books in short spurts, to put one down and pick up another until > eventually I've read all what I set out to read. This never happens that I > read what I set out to read, however. > > [An aside: I wonder if others would share their reading habits? How do you > read, paper or pixels? And when do you read? And how do you like to read?] > > But actually I cherish opera David, I have fallen away from it for the > past several years, but would gladly return were I near an opera house. I > really like your observation of opera for cleaning the mind, that sounds > really fab, and I think you are right. > > I love the idea of Madame Butterfly as my ear worm! :) > > Silky ears! > > Pertaining to the Verisimo (and plastic surgery which I find somewhat > gothic, actually), I have always considered the Gothic to be dark and > brooding, yes, but because of a lack of hope in changing times where there > is nothing but uncertainty, especially if one is an aristocrat. Heads > rolling and all that. I don't know if it is possible for anything modern to > be gothic, meaning 20th century. Is there? I can only think the of the > Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Metropolis, and Nosferatu. There's Film Noire > which is dark, but that doesn't seem brooding or full of self loathing, > like the silent pictures from Germany. Hitchcock maybe, but then again, he > was German too! > > Is it possible though, that Vygotsky seemed romantic because when he wrote > Psychology of Art he was at the beginning of his career and not the end? > > Intriguing idea to take consciousness as my hero! Say more on that? > > Atemporality vs temporality has to do with inability to measure versus > ability to measure, in that something that is atemporal is neither an > instant nor an eternity(though might be both) since within the atemporal > nothing seems to change, time stands still. The present moment can have > that aspect of complete stillness. > > Temporality, on the other metronome, is measurable, it has a rhythm > perhaps. There is a beginning a middle and an end (narrative?), but that > also can be in the present moment. What differs is there is a sense of time > passing, like sitting in a train with the landscape scuttling by, or > watching Koyaanisqatsi. > > Next: I'm thinking of an old-fashioned slide lantern that spins on its > vertical axis with the picture is viewed through a slot which remains > stationary. The animation occurs from the images spinning past the slot > with the lantern projecting that image onto a far wall. We don't see the > images coming or the images past, just the one projecting outward from the > slot. > > My interpretation of The Vygotsky Moment is the moment of change, but this > may not at all be instantaneous; it develops, it may be logical as you say. > But how do we measure change if not from a stationary point in time? Yep, > you guessed it, the present moment! > > I do not know any point in time that isn't stationary, except the present > moment. If there is a sense of change in the present moment, that change is > based upon attention, not upon time. So that's why I can be sitting here > and then suddenly go to the Bahamas and then come back and realized I've > burned my popcorn. > > Nothing happened to the present moment, just my attention shifted. > > See and this is the thing! In modern cultures, typically, the present > moment passes us by because frequently we do not attend to it. However, it > never leaves us, rather, we leave it with our attention even though we are > in it (always), it is our minds that are thinking of the past or of the > future, but rarely tending to in the present. In cultures that are more > intertwined with nature or being in relationship with others without being > in a hurry, I find the opposite is the case, that the present moment is all > there is. There is a lot of leisure in this conception of time, or this > attending to time. > > What is interesting about Verismo is that it is like a layering of > concentric lanterns that provides a sort of psychedelic experience in which > my attention is asking, "Will the real present moment please stand up?" And > then all of them do (because there's only one). > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Wed Feb 18 15:54:26 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 23:54:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <31C109CB-52BD-4853-B49A-5E2E5ABC5C16@gmail.com> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> <, > <1424287328302.92621@unm.edu> <31C109CB-52BD-4853-B49A-5E2E5ABC5C16@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry and Annalisa, sorry for not providing more of an explanation. By zigs and zags, I was referring to the changes in direction of the fly as it travels in a straight line first from the tortoise to Achilles, then back to the tortoise, then to Achilles, etc. What we know about the fly's flight is that it lasted one hour, and at 10 mph amounted to exactly 10 miles. What's more obscure is that the beginning of the flight involves an infinite number of these zigs and zags. Partly, the difficulty of understanding comes from our physical intuitions which conflict with the mathematical idealization the problem needs. For instance, because flies have physical dimension, eventually, the fly would be touching both Achilles and the tortoise at the same time. So we have to idealize the fly as a point which has location, but no dimension. With this in mind, if we run the simulation backward over the course of that hour, then the dynamics of the infinite legs of the journey can come more into focus. At first, Achilles and tortoise are 9 miles apart (recall, the tortoise travelled 1 mile, and Achilles travelled 10 miles). So the fly has a long trip to make on the first leg of its journey. However, as the backward simulation continues, the distance between the characters shrinks, so each trip from one character to the next is shorter than previous one. To understand how this could result in an infinite number of zig zag legs of the journey, we need to come to terms with a somewhat paradoxical calculation--how could an infinite number of legs of the journey not require an eternity to accomplish? This is the very calculation that stymied the Greek philosopher Xeno, and inspired Plato's belief that the changing world we experience around us, is just an illusory image of the true, unchanging world of ideal forms. To simplify the numbers, let's assume each leg of the journey is 50% of the preceding leg in both time and distance, and that the first leg in the backward simulation takes 1/2 of an hour. Then the second leg would take 1/4 of an hour, then 1/8 of an hour, etc. So the total time T in hours would be given by: T = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ... and onward without end. Interestingly, the sum of all of these times onward to infinity is 1 hour. To see this, think of the unit as being a cake, instead of a unit of time. First eat half the cake; that leaves the other half on the cake tray. Then cut that half into two halves (each 1/4 of the original cake) and eat one of them. So you've eaten 1/2 + 1/4 of the cake and still have 1/4 cake left. Next cut that piece into two equal parts and eat one of them. You will now have eaten 1/2 + 1/4 1/8 of the cake and still have 1/8 cake left. As you can see at the infinite end of this process you will eaten exactly the whole cake. In the same way, traversing the infinite number of legs of the flies journey takes 1/2 of an hour plus 1/4 of an hour plus 1/8 of an hour, and onward through an infinite number of legs for a total journey of one hour. Bringing this back to the discussion of what is a moment, we can see the problematic nature of trying to make sense of a point in time in relation to a continuum of time. The infinite oscillation of the fly's path means the ending position of the fly after one hour is indeterminate. From a mathematical point of view, there's simply too much that goes on the level of the infinitesimal point to be able to relate it to our more familiar and comfortable continuous intervals. I hope this helps, a bit. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:53 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic David, I was going to hide my ignorance, but Annalisa has provided cover: I am assuming that the zigs and zags in the word problem indicate that the fly need NOT fly in a straight line between tortoise and hare. Is that what makes for an infinite number of solutions? Henry > On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi David, > > I am terrible at math word problems! As a result I got dizzy thinking about infinite trips by the Trojan Fly. > > Is the answer that the fly is facing up? > > In one hour the tortoise and Achilles are 4 miles apart. But I can't determine where the fly would be because it is flying back and forth at 10 mph. Knowing the life of flies, wouldn't it be likely to be dead from flying that fast for that long? > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 12:05 AM David H Kirshner wrote: > >> From a mathematical point of view, there are some interesting paradoxes associated with the notion of a moment in time. Here's a particularly nice one building on the race between Achilles and the tortoise, the latter having been given a head start. > David > > The Trojan Fly: > > Achilles overtakes the tortoise and runs on into the sunset, exulting. As he does so, a fly leaves the tortoise's back, flies to Achilles, then returns to the tortoise, and continues to oscillate between the two as the distance between them grows, changing direction instantaneously each time. Suppose the tortoise travels at 1 mph, Achilles at 5 mph, and the fly at 10 mph. An hour later, where is the fly, and which way is it facing? > > We can find the answer by running the scenario backward, letting the three participants reverse their motions until all three are again abreast. The right answer is the one that returns the fly to the tortoise's back just as Achilles passes it. The paradox is that all solutions do this: Place the fly anywhere between Achilles and the tortoise, run the race backward, and the fly will arrive satisfactorily on the tortoise's back at just the right moment. [The reason this is so is because there are an infinite numbers of zigs and zags in the fly's path--you can get a sense of the infinite oscillation as you move the actors backward in your mind ever closer to the point at which the Achilles and the tortoise are abreast of one another.] > > This is puzzling. The conditions of the problem allow us to predict exactly where Achilles and the tortoise will be after an hour's running. But the fly's position admits of an infinite number of solutions. > (From University of Arizona philosopher Wesley Salmon's Space, Time, and Motion, after an idea by A.K. Austin.) > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 18 17:22:24 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:22:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> <, > <1424287328302.92621@unm.edu> <31C109CB-52BD-4853-B49A-5E2E5ABC5C16@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1424308943676.15267@unm.edu> Wait a minute, David! I thought you said Achilles runs 5 mph. Doesn't that mean he's 4 miles ahead of the tortoise after an hour? Annalisa From dkirsh@lsu.edu Wed Feb 18 17:38:39 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:38:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic In-Reply-To: <1424308943676.15267@unm.edu> References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> <, > <1424287328302.92621@unm.edu> <31C109CB-52BD-4853-B49A-5E2E5ABC5C16@gmail.com>, <1424308943676.15267@unm.edu> Message-ID: You're right, Annalisa. But the principle is the same. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Annalisa Aguilar Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 7:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Verismo and the Gothic Wait a minute, David! I thought you said Achilles runs 5 mph. Doesn't that mean he's 4 miles ahead of the tortoise after an hour? Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Wed Feb 18 17:57:57 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:57:57 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] When does an apprentice become an inventor? In-Reply-To: References: <1424149617518.74909@unm.edu> <002e01d04a73$95faa3f0$c1efebd0$@edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A40979@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <1E629C70-76FE-41F8-85AA-974B1F5C9407@gmail.com> <1424238843669.10299@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54E54325.4040509@mira.net> David, collaborative projects are generally something people join rather than create, just like one usually learns rather than invents, the words of your native language, but sometimes a person does add a new word to their language. I wouldn't see any point in drawing a line between those two "types of word," so long as you recognise that the general idea of a language is that it exists independently of any individual. The same goes for projects. It is precisely the absence of any sharp line between something which is simply interpersonal, whose dynamics are easily grasped by anyone with life-experience, and those great social projects which are enscribed in our language, which makes the notion of collaborative project useful for analysis of social formations. It is rarely appropriate to ascribe psychological concepts to projects, but there are concepts which span the psychological and the cultural-historical domains which are useful in understanding projects. "Concept" is one of those concepts; we talk about the "Newtonian concept of momentum" without meaning to make any claim about the psychology of Isaac Newton, but rather refer to something implicit in certain well-established scientific forms of action. At the same time a teacher might say: "Johnny's concept of momentum still includes the friction acting against the object" - a concept manifested uniquely in Johnny's actions in Physics lessons. The "temporal" issue you pose, David, is one of development: projects have a life-course which passes through various recognisable phases just as does an individual human life. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ David Kellogg wrote: > ... when > does a collaborative project shift from being interpersonal to being > social, and what does this mean for the role of consciousness, volition, > ethics/politics and whether we divide the latter with a slash or with a > dash? > > ... > > Collaborative projects, by definition, cannot have have a single guiding > consciousness, or at least cannot have a single psychology, else they cease > to be collaborative. But at a certain point they also cease to have several > different consciousnesses, and attain a generalized, abstract consciousness > (Andy calls this a consciousness a concept; I think of it as a potential > culture). The problem is precisely a temporal one: when? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 18 18:30:55 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:30:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Losonsky's Introduction to Humboldt's 'On Language' Message-ID: <1424313054404.80681@unm.edu> ?Hello Esteemed xmcars. Thanks to a little help from my friends, I received this PDF of Losonsky's Introduction to Humboldt's On Language. Perhaps this will create more threads? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Losonsky_Introduction_to_Humboldt_on_Language_1999.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 908336 bytes Desc: Losonsky_Introduction_to_Humboldt_on_Language_1999.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150219/cf822cef/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Feb 19 09:02:54 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:02:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Why the Humanities? Conference: Answers from the Cognitive and Neurosciences Message-ID: Thought folks on the list might dig this: http://www.kent.edu/cas/why-humanities -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Thu Feb 19 11:07:29 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 19:07:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why the Humanities? Conference: Answers from the Cognitive and Neurosciences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interestingly enough, I recently answered the question of Why the Humanities? http://getschooled.blog.ajc.com/2015/02/09/opinion-issue-isnt-welding-vs-chaucer-its-how-to-remove-barriers-to-college/ -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:03 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Why the Humanities? Conference: Answers from the Cognitive and Neurosciences Thought folks on the list might dig this: http://www.kent.edu/cas/why-humanities -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Fri Feb 20 08:26:43 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 16:26:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Deepening Social Justice Teaching, by Dr. Christine Sleeter Message-ID: . What's new with JoLLE@UGA? View this email in your browser [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/image001.png] [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/b3238978-c591-4140-b749-622994a36600.jpg] Scholars Speak Out In her essay, Deepening Social Justice Teaching, Dr. Christine Sleeter reconsiders the term ?social justice? and offers principles that can be used to deepen social justice teaching, particularly in terms of literacy teaching. Dr. Sleeter is Professor Emerita in the College of Professional Studies at California State University Monterey Bay, where she was a founding faculty member. She has served as a visiting professor at several universities, most recently University of Colorado at Boulder and has published over 100 articles and 19 books. Visit JoLLE to read Dr. Sleeter's essay. Call for Journal Submissions! You have ONE MORE WEEK to submit manuscripts to be considered for the spring issue of JoLLE, themed Embodied and/or Participatory Literacies. Manuscript submissions should follow all guidelines posted on the JoLLE website and should be sent to jolle@uga.edu by February 27th. Poetry & Art submissions should be sent to jolleart@uga.edu by March 27th. [http://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/48b12e6c-d958-40d9-ab8a-20252a4f2dee.png] Thank You! The 2015 JoLLE@UGA Conference was a HUGE success and we are so grateful to those of you who attended, presented, and tweeted. For those of you unable to attend, we hope to see you next year! Copyright ? 2015 The University of Georgia, All rights reserved. The Journal of Language & Literacy Education is a peer-reviewed, open access journal based in the the Department of Language & Literacy Education in The College of Education at The University of Georgia. Our mailing address is: The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30606 Add us to your address book unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Feb 20 13:03:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:03:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [DCOG-HCI] live-stream of carta symposium in CSB 215 - friday 1-5:30pm In-Reply-To: <8A461FC4-E2A5-44F0-9EA7-53FB08A4AF69@ucsd.edu> References: <8A461FC4-E2A5-44F0-9EA7-53FB08A4AF69@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: Many talks here of potential interest that will be streamed. The time is pacific coast, US. so its on now mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: lera boroditsky Date: Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:43 AM Subject: [DCOG-HCI] live-stream of carta symposium in CSB 215 - friday 1-5:30pm To: talks@cogsci.ucsd.edu friends - we plan to play the live-stream from the CARTA symposium on 'How language evolves" in CSB 215, tomorrow (friday) 1pm-5:30pm. probably with tea and cookies. everyone is welcome to join. http://carta.anthropogeny.org/events/how-language-evolves --------------------- Lera Boroditsky Associate Professor of Cognitive Science UCSD on twitter: @leraboroditsky _______________________________________________ dcog-hci mailing list dcog-hci@hci.ucsd.edu http://hci.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/dcog-hci -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 20 21:17:13 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 05:17:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Erratic Marxists Message-ID: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> Hello esteemed xmcars! I saw this in the Guardian and thought I'd make an offering to the Marxist ideologues! http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist Cheers to the comrades! Kind regards, Annalisa From markchen@u.washington.edu Sat Feb 21 09:42:30 2015 From: markchen@u.washington.edu (Mark Chen) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 09:42:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Why the Humanities? Conference: Answers from the Cognitive and Neurosciences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: bam. mic drop. Great read, Peter. mark On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Interestingly enough, I recently answered the question of Why the > Humanities? > http://getschooled.blog.ajc.com/2015/02/09/opinion-issue-isnt-welding-vs-chaucer-its-how-to-remove-barriers-to-college/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:03 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Why the Humanities? Conference: Answers from the > Cognitive and Neurosciences > > Thought folks on the list might dig this: > http://www.kent.edu/cas/why-humanities > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > -- You see before you *Mark Chen, PhD*. Above his head appears the label "*Director, Pepperdine Gameful Design Lab*." Do you send him a tweet (*@mcdanger* ), check out his website (*markdangerchen.net* ), or respond to this email? He looks at you expectantly with a smile. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 21 10:14:53 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 10:14:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> Message-ID: I'll let the marxists ideologues, whoever they are, speak for themselves. I found Varolufakis's article interesting... both his (apparent) forthrightness in saying that tearing apart Europe with no plan is not a great plan for improving human life, and that is dangerous and especially this: *nothing succeeds in reproducing itself better than a false sense of entitlement* Every professor with tenure, a house, and the absence of war in his/her local neighborhood could do worse than to put that thought on their computer as a screensaver. mike On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello esteemed xmcars! > > > I saw this in the Guardian and thought I'd make an offering to the Marxist > ideologues! > > > http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist > > > Cheers to the comrades! > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 21 10:56:37 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 18:56:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> Hi mike and all and sundry types whether ideologues or nay! :) Yes, I found that quote that you pulled out to be a most poignant thought as well. What I respond to in Varolufakis's article, which I will have to learn how to pronounce properly (anyone know where the emphasis is?), is that he is transparent where he agrees and where he is critical with Marx. I find this to provide more access to what Marx said, and it enables me to engage a little better with the material because it removes the messiah from the man, even if his message may be listing to the prophetic. There is an apparent movement to completely erase progressive liberalism as ineffectual which is accomplished by grouping it all together with traditional conservatism and contain them all in an assorted box of chocolates called neo-liberalism, and from that containment there is a sway toward the fizzy pop of libertarianism, but there are, it seems, two kinds of libertarians ones who get there from the right (the tea party), and ones who get there from the left (Occupy). It is a fight for liberty, but not as we would think. It is a fight for The Brand of Liberty as the platform. The bizarre thing about this is, it is in every person's fiber to want liberty, so how the liberty-right and the liberty-left are to be distinguished is going to be an interesting debate. Who owns the word "libertarian" anyway? Oddly to try to create a new word out of liberty might be "libertine," but that has too fleshy a sensation for most people's political sensibilities! What about libertitian? libertanian? I've never heard of an erratic Marxist? Has anyone heard it before? When I search it, all that comes up is Varolufakis. Kind regards, Annalisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Feb 21 15:44:12 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:44:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> Message-ID: I often imagine people like Varolufakis skipping through the parts of Capital not devoted to economic models, the way that the rest of us skip through the economic modelling. On the evidence of his criticisms ("ommission" and "commission") of Marx, Varolufakis he has not seriously read Marx's non-economic work or studied his career as a political revolutionary. Only in that way could Varolufakis come up with his erratisms, which really only reflect his own erratic reading practices. How else could Varolufakis conclude that Marx did not take much interest in the effect that his ideas had on the leaders of the workers' movement? Marx saw bureaucratic practices in the working class movement and decried the International being taken over by bureaucrats, college professors and liberal do-gooders long before anyone else. The reason why nobody reads the section of the Manifesto where he and Engels did this is simply that they did it so effectively that hardly any of the people mentioned in it were ever mentioned again. Or consider his struggle over the "Gotha Programmae" or his fight with Lasalle, or (to take up Annalisa's notion of left wing libertarians) with the Bakuninists. The criticism that he did not personally take up the fight against Stalin himself is patently silly: when Marx died, Stalin was exactly four years old, and the Soviet Union was more than three decades in the future. Varolufakis' s account of Marx's "error of commission" is even more silly: it is simply a refusal to rise to the level of theory. Varolufakis deduces from the incompleteness of a mathematical model (something which is really inherent in the whole idea of a mathematical model) the futility of mathematical models of labor in general and of Capital in particular. Varolufakis really has to have a look at Andy's article on "Reading Capital". http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/reading-capital.htm Marx isn't in the business of explaining to capitalists how their own system works. He is in the business of explaining to workers why it is not true that strikes are just short term solutions bound to pull down the workers' standard of living in the long run and why it is also not true that strikes are permanent solutions that can lead to the elevation of workers into the middle class. He has precisely the economic model required to do this. It's worth noting, perhaps, that Marx was not a working-class intellectual himself. Even though he shared the conditions of life of some of the most wretched members of the working class (and the infant mortality rate in his family shows this), he also insisted on having servants and had his daughters taught French and piano rather than a trade. But Marx's work was one of the things that made working class intellectuals possible in the social sciences in the first place (previously there were working class intellectuals, but they were people like Michael Faraday, who got into the hard sciences through reflecting on physical phenomena encountered in manual labor). I think that is why people like Varolufakis are grateful to him. But the rest of us have non-erratic reasons for gratitude. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 22 February 2015 at 03:56, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hi mike and all and sundry types whether ideologues or nay! :) > > Yes, I found that quote that you pulled out to be a most poignant thought > as well. > > What I respond to in Varolufakis's article, which I will have to learn how > to pronounce properly (anyone know where the emphasis is?), is that he is > transparent where he agrees and where he is critical with Marx. I find this > to provide more access to what Marx said, and it enables me to engage a > little better with the material because it removes the messiah from the > man, even if his message may be listing to the prophetic. > > There is an apparent movement to completely erase progressive liberalism > as ineffectual which is accomplished by grouping it all together with > traditional conservatism and contain them all in an assorted box of > chocolates called neo-liberalism, and from that containment there is a sway > toward the fizzy pop of libertarianism, but there are, it seems, two kinds > of libertarians ones who get there from the right (the tea party), and ones > who get there from the left (Occupy). > > It is a fight for liberty, but not as we would think. It is a fight for > The Brand of Liberty as the platform. The bizarre thing about this is, it > is in every person's fiber to want liberty, so how the liberty-right and > the liberty-left are to be distinguished is going to be an interesting > debate. > > Who owns the word "libertarian" anyway? Oddly to try to create a new word > out of liberty might be "libertine," but that has too fleshy a sensation > for most people's political sensibilities! What about libertitian? > libertanian? > > I've never heard of an erratic Marxist? Has anyone heard it before? When I > search it, all that comes up is Varolufakis. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 21 16:33:59 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 16:33:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for an informed reading of Varolufakis through an informed reading of Marx, David. mike On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 3:44 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I often imagine people like Varolufakis skipping through the parts of > Capital not devoted to economic models, the way that the rest of us skip > through the economic modelling. On the evidence of his criticisms > ("ommission" and "commission") of Marx, Varolufakis he has not seriously > read Marx's non-economic work or studied his career as a political > revolutionary. Only in that way could Varolufakis come up with his > erratisms, which really only reflect his own erratic reading practices. > > How else could Varolufakis conclude that Marx did not take much interest in > the effect that his ideas had on the leaders of the workers' movement? Marx > saw bureaucratic practices in the working class movement and decried the > International being taken over by bureaucrats, college professors and > liberal do-gooders long before anyone else. The reason why nobody reads the > section of the Manifesto where he and Engels did this is simply that they > did it so effectively that hardly any of the people mentioned in it were > ever mentioned again. Or consider his struggle over the "Gotha Programmae" > or his fight with Lasalle, or (to take up Annalisa's notion of left wing > libertarians) with the Bakuninists. The criticism that he did not > personally take up the fight against Stalin himself is patently silly: when > Marx died, Stalin was exactly four years old, and the Soviet Union was more > than three decades in the future. > > Varolufakis' s account of Marx's "error of commission" is even more silly: > it is simply a refusal to rise to the level of theory. Varolufakis deduces > from the incompleteness of a mathematical model (something which is really > inherent in the whole idea of a mathematical model) the futility of > mathematical models of labor in general and of Capital in particular. > Varolufakis really has to have a look at Andy's article on "Reading > Capital". > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/reading-capital.htm > > Marx isn't in the business of explaining to capitalists how their own > system works. He is in the business of explaining to workers why it is not > true that strikes are just short term solutions bound to pull down the > workers' standard of living in the long run and why it is also not true > that strikes are permanent solutions that can lead to the elevation of > workers into the middle class. He has precisely the economic model required > to do this. > > It's worth noting, perhaps, that Marx was not a working-class intellectual > himself. Even though he shared the conditions of life of some of the most > wretched members of the working class (and the infant mortality rate in his > family shows this), he also insisted on having servants and had his > daughters taught French and piano rather than a trade. But Marx's work was > one of the things that made working class intellectuals possible in the > social sciences in the first place (previously there were working class > intellectuals, but they were people like Michael Faraday, who got into the > hard sciences through reflecting on physical phenomena encountered in > manual labor). I think that is why people like Varolufakis are grateful to > him. But the rest of us have non-erratic reasons for gratitude. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > On 22 February 2015 at 03:56, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > Hi mike and all and sundry types whether ideologues or nay! :) > > > > Yes, I found that quote that you pulled out to be a most poignant thought > > as well. > > > > What I respond to in Varolufakis's article, which I will have to learn > how > > to pronounce properly (anyone know where the emphasis is?), is that he is > > transparent where he agrees and where he is critical with Marx. I find > this > > to provide more access to what Marx said, and it enables me to engage a > > little better with the material because it removes the messiah from the > > man, even if his message may be listing to the prophetic. > > > > There is an apparent movement to completely erase progressive liberalism > > as ineffectual which is accomplished by grouping it all together with > > traditional conservatism and contain them all in an assorted box of > > chocolates called neo-liberalism, and from that containment there is a > sway > > toward the fizzy pop of libertarianism, but there are, it seems, two > kinds > > of libertarians ones who get there from the right (the tea party), and > ones > > who get there from the left (Occupy). > > > > It is a fight for liberty, but not as we would think. It is a fight for > > The Brand of Liberty as the platform. The bizarre thing about this is, it > > is in every person's fiber to want liberty, so how the liberty-right and > > the liberty-left are to be distinguished is going to be an interesting > > debate. > > > > Who owns the word "libertarian" anyway? Oddly to try to create a new word > > out of liberty might be "libertine," but that has too fleshy a sensation > > for most people's political sensibilities! What about libertitian? > > libertanian? > > > > I've never heard of an erratic Marxist? Has anyone heard it before? When > I > > search it, all that comes up is Varolufakis. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 21 16:58:26 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 00:58:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> , Message-ID: <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> Hi all, David, even if Varolufakis is not properly reading Marx (and even if I'm not reading Varolufarkis properly), I don't think he is alone in not properly reading Marx! What I was thinking and my reason for posting the link to the list is that this may be a blessing in disguise. What I find hopeful is that there is a discussion of Marxism without the immediate stampede to Stalinist interpretations of Marxism. He is creating a space for discourse without leaving room for McCarthyism. Or is that my not reading this properly? What I hope is that this causes people to actually go read Marx, for people to actually start discussing Marx, for people to actually start thinking about Marx with their own minds. The proof is in the pudding after all. And in that sense, the link to Andy's paper is totally apropos! Perfect timing, Andy! :) What I got from the article without a proper reading of Marx, is that Varolufarkis is mindful of "totalitarian affordances" and doesn't want to repeat that pattern ever again. Is this not a good concern to have when his country possesses a formal political group that abides in National Socialism? Also, it is not my notion that Occupy is a left-wing version of libertarianism. I got that from somewhere else, and I can't find that link. So this is just to say I can't take credit where credit isn't deserved. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 21 17:54:20 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 01:54:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> , , <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> Hello all, Here's something showing the merging of Occupy with Libertarianism, although this is not the first place I saw it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Occupy Also to read my posts properly, is not to assume that my posting of links means I subscribe to the content or not. It just means I'm sharing a link. Though it is more likely that I am sharing because I have found something interesting to think about, that perhaps others on the list will find interesting to think about too. :) What I value most is The Discussion because I learn from the great minds that are here and I'm grateful for that, truly. Kind regards, Annalisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 21 19:29:15 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 20:29:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, The historical event that happens to be the name of the biggest American conservative movement of the past 20 years is, it seems to me, also the closest thing to an Occupy movement in the 18th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party Considering this spectrum of American politics, it seems that the two political sides meet in the ends. (so to speak!) -greg On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello all, > > Here's something showing the merging of Occupy with Libertarianism, > although this is not the first place I saw it. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Occupy > > Also to read my posts properly, is not to assume that my posting of links > means I subscribe to the content or not. It just means I'm sharing a link. > Though it is more likely that I am sharing because I have found something > interesting to think about, that perhaps others on the list will find > interesting to think about too. :) > > What I value most is The Discussion because I learn from the great minds > that are here and I'm grateful for that, truly. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sat Feb 21 19:48:57 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 14:48:57 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> Message-ID: <54E951A9.6030204@mira.net> And isn't it ironic that two very small groups of libertarians both claim the right to speak "on behalf of" the 99%. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Annalisa, > The historical event that happens to be the name of the biggest American > conservative movement of the past 20 years is, it seems to me, also the > closest thing to an Occupy movement in the 18th century: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party > > Considering this spectrum of American politics, it seems that the two > political sides meet in the ends. (so to speak!) > > -greg > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Hello all, >> >> Here's something showing the merging of Occupy with Libertarianism, >> although this is not the first place I saw it. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Occupy >> >> Also to read my posts properly, is not to assume that my posting of links >> means I subscribe to the content or not. It just means I'm sharing a link. >> Though it is more likely that I am sharing because I have found something >> interesting to think about, that perhaps others on the list will find >> interesting to think about too. :) >> >> What I value most is The Discussion because I learn from the great minds >> that are here and I'm grateful for that, truly. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Annalisa >> >> >> >> > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 21 20:06:56 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:06:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <54E951A9.6030204@mira.net> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> , <54E951A9.6030204@mira.net> Message-ID: <1424578014051.8888@unm.edu> Hi Andy! I agree with you, that in the US, that is the case. Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 21 20:09:57 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:09:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu>, Message-ID: <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> Greg! Is this a different rendition of the ends justifies the means? or the meets? or the meats? :) Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 21 22:03:33 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:03:33 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> Message-ID: Mike, I also was struck by Varoufakis argument that everything is "pregnant" with its opposite and creating "joint productions" [such as labour's two quite different natures:{ 1] labour as a value creating activity that can never be "quantified" in advance AND 2] labour as a "quantity" }. Another "error" [as he sees it] was for the left to embrace "equality and justice" as rallying cries, thereby allowing the neo-liberals to "occupy" the "space" of "liberty, freedom,and rationality" which becomes the neo-liberal rallying cry. Does present a theme [a sense] inviting further reflection. Larry On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greg! > > Is this a different rendition of the ends justifies the means? or the > meets? or the meats? > > :) > > Annalisa > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 21 22:50:43 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:50:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Form, Function, and Hope In-Reply-To: References: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, further to your reflections on "wise thoughts" having been thought already thousands of times, but to make them our own, we must think them over again honestly, till they take root in our personal experience. I am reading more on Bloch's "theme" [his particular image of the category of hope]. The Markavis article which was posted to XMCA is exploring the question Bloch asks to open the second section of his major work "the PRINCIPLE of Hope". This is where he explores the "psychology" of hope. The question Markavis highlights in Bloch's work is: *"Who drives on within us?"* Following is Markavi's summary of Bloch's answer [ part two of his book elaborates this answer in depth]. Markavis on page 7 offers this fragment from Bloch" That we are alive cannot be felt. The THAT which posits us as living does not itself emerge. It lies deep down, where we begin to *be corporeal*. This push within us is what we mean when we say, man does not live in order to live, but 'because' he lives. Nobody has sought out this state of urging, it has been with us ever since we existed and in THAT we exist. The nature of our *immediate being IS empty *and hence greedy, striving, and hence restless.... [that] must go out of itself. THEN it senses itself AS an urge. No living thing can ever escape from THAT urging,... THIS thirst constantly announces itself but DOES NOT give its name." A further reflection on this theme of hope as the "not yet" formed that I found while exploring Ernst Bloch's notion of hope was contained in Bloch's last book, called "Experimentum Mundi" This book begins: "I am. But I do not have myself as yet. We still do not know in any way what we are and too much is full of something that is missing". This is another example of that "empty place" that needs to become corporeal. [the life force] Peter Thompson, another author who explores Bloch's "Philosophy of Hope" wrote an article titled: "The Privatization of Hope and the Crisis of Negation] "For Bloch there could be no end to history because history itself is the process of the arrival at an autopoietically constructed truth of what it is to be human in the world. Hope for Bloch, was the way in which our desire to fill in the *gaps* and to find something missing took shape." Again the theme of "blues hope" as the "empty place"/ "gaps" AND the life force as answer. Peter Thompson further adds: "The Whole of 'The Principle of Hope' is thus not just a listing of the ways in which we exercise hope but an analysis of the ways in which hope can be achieved in the real, material world so that our hunger can lead us back home via hope and belief. In this sense he borrowed his *categories* not only from Marx but also from Aristotle, Hegel, Avicenna, Kant, Spinoza, Schelling, and indeed all those philosophers dealing with the complex and dialectical relationship between the human being and the material world. For him the human being and the material world were one and the same thing." The question Bloch asked [and the question is vital today] is whether hope can still exist in anything other than an atomized, desocialized, and privatized form. Bloch is questioning if "late" capitalism has reduced human hope to the lowest common denominator in a neo-liberal atomized world where the "dream" of capitalism has lost its driving power and force? Have the dreams of a better "world" become merely dreams of a better world for oneself alone or one's family? [against the world]. This returns us to Varolufakis who cautions that if Europeans loose "hope" in the European Union, the alternative will likely be fascist nationalist return to "blood" and not a socialist uprising of equality and justice. Hope is cynical, if it merely waits for the collapse of capitalism, assuming a better world to come as wishful thinking. For Bloch it is a much deeper question of the "not-yet" that is a "hunger" within the dialect of the present AND the "not-yet" formed. Bloch's hope is not a notion of "repression" concealing what has previously been conscious, but is a revealing or coming into form that has never previously existed. Bloch and Georg Simmel were friends and Bloch's approach seems close to Simmel's theme of life [as vitality] expressed within a space of "as if" as a dialectical and reciprocal theme. I have read that when Simmel's work came to North America it was cleansed of its dialectical character, and only recently has the centrality of the dialectical nature of Simmel's notion of "interaction" been revisited. However that will be for another post on how Simmel's work opened up a space to understand what is "possible" or "potential" or "as if". Larry On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: > ?Re prolepsis: > > ? Goethe (in one translation) > *All truly wise thoughts have been thoughts already thousands of times; but > to make them truly ours, we must think them over again honestly, till they > take root in our personal experience* > > mike > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > Thanks for this, Robert. Good collection of thoughts and references about > > prolepsis. > > > > H > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > On Feb 17, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > > > > > Hi again Everyone! > > > I recognize that most of what I write here is redundant and part of the > > > given history of XCMA, but I think we need to continually renew our > > > metalanguage by spelling out key concepts for newcomers and of course > > our > > > own students. Otherwise we could end up like the prisoners on Alcatraz > > that > > > had been so long together that they knew all knew each other's jokes, > so > > > all they needed to say was "number 39 ha, ha ". "Well number 6 back to > > you". > > > > > > In terms of the praxis of hope and being within the zpd, I love Michael > > > Cole's (1996) notion of prolepsis which is predicated on LSV's concept > > of > > > budding .Prolepsis is the perception of an anticipated or future > > condition > > > of development before it actually exists as an internalized state of > > being. > > > "The zone of proximal development defines those functions that have not > > yet > > > matured but are in the process of maturation, functions that will > mature > > > tomorrow but are currently in an embryonic state. These functions could > > be > > > termed the ?buds? or ?flowers? of development rather than the ?fruits? > of > > > development.? (Vygotsky, 1978, p.86)" *So hope of further > > **development** is > > > based on present "being".* For example at some point in life , > probably > > > all of us were told that we had real potential as a scholar or > teacher . > > > Prolepsis is a rare and extremely valuable tool in education if > teachers > > > and mentors can use it realistically as a means to help students move > > into > > > spaces that are truly within their grasp through interaction with those > > who > > > see can look at the bud and see the fruit until prolepsis becomes > > > internalized by the student themselves. Boris Meshcheryakov (2007) > calls > > > this transition a process of moving from ?heteroprolepsis? to > > > ?autoprolepsis? (p.166). > > > > > > An example of each would be when a parent hears their child humming on > > key > > > or reproducing entire tunes in various levels of complexity, they will > of > > > course, under normal conditions, encourage their offspring toward some > > > future musical activity by reporting their performance to them with > > > something like ?when you were two, you could hum all the notes to that > > song > > > and I know you will do quite well with piano lessons?.Meshcheryakov > goes > > on > > > to relate an example of autoprolepsis in children?s role playing when > the > > > child imagines ?him or herself in various adults? roles (hunter, > mother, > > > teacher, etc.), imitating the elements of cultural forms of behavior? > (p. > > > 167). Many future and present teachers for example can recall a time > when > > > they used to pretend teach their siblings or maybe even their stuffed > > > animals. But this role-play does not cease as we grow out of childhood. > > > Student teaching, apprenticeships, GA's could all be zpd spaces with > the > > > potential of moving from heteroprolepsis to autoprolepsis. > > > > > > > > > Cole, M.,(1996). *Cultural psychology: A once and future* *discipline.* > > > Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. > > > > > > > > > Meshcheryakov, B. G. (2007). Terminology in L. S. Vygotsky?s writings. > In > > > Daniels, H., Cole, M., Wertsch, J. V. (Eds.) *The Cambridge companion > to > > > Vygotsky*. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky, L.S. (1978). *Mind in society*. Cambridge, MA: Harvard > > University > > > Press. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > >> The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, > dread, > > >> and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". > > >> The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this > moment > > can > > >> we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. > > >> This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which > > >> develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". > > >> So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" > as > > >> cultural-historical embedded practices. > > >> > > >> Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: > > >> > > >> "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent > and > > >> separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future > > orientedness > > >> - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, > > >> recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and > fuzzy > > >> MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - > coming > > >> into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within > > >> everyday life." > > >> > > >> I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to > > >> Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" > > >> > > >> Larry > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > Georgia Southern University > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > > P. O. Box 8144 > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mn@edu.au.dk Sun Feb 22 01:45:11 2015 From: mn@edu.au.dk (Morten Nissen) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 09:45:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> Dear xmca It is few who realize how central are the Greek and Spanish oppositions to European austerity politics for any hope for a change that might halt the glide toward increasing inequality and nationalist reactions. So, Varoufakis is my hero - even if some of his statements may be debatable. To me, he is one of those laudable economists who are able to look beyond economic formulae, like Piketty. He is brave in taking up Marx, no small thing for an economist. And he is right in his critique of Marx, too, if we read his text looking for truth rather than correctness. Marx did in fact sometimes substitute polemics for dialectics, and scold opponents for being wrong rather than engage in immanent critique. And behind this it does make sense to point to Marx' neglecting to address subjectivity in the epistemological sense, as the issue of we who think and act (instead taken up by Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Sartre, and later the poststructuralists). This is what has weakened the left most: Rather than trying to reflect and understand how we constitute ourselves as "us" (the revolutionary Party, the State, the Theory, etc.), we have split up and pointed fingers at each other for being wrong. Varoufakis' arguments for a liberal pluralism (and "erratic readings") combined with a collective social responsibility for not just a radical change, but also for how it may come about, are important truths, even if we can find a few unimportant incorrectnesses. Morten Nissen PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor Department of Education Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] P? vegne af Larry Purss Sendt: 22. februar 2015 07:04 Til: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Emne: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists Mike, I also was struck by Varoufakis argument that everything is "pregnant" with its opposite and creating "joint productions" [such as labour's two quite different natures:{ 1] labour as a value creating activity that can never be "quantified" in advance AND 2] labour as a "quantity" }. Another "error" [as he sees it] was for the left to embrace "equality and justice" as rallying cries, thereby allowing the neo-liberals to "occupy" the "space" of "liberty, freedom,and rationality" which becomes the neo-liberal rallying cry. Does present a theme [a sense] inviting further reflection. Larry On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Greg! > > Is this a different rendition of the ends justifies the means? or the > meets? or the meats? > > :) > > Annalisa > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Feb 22 02:31:50 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 21:31:50 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> Message-ID: <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> Thanks Morten. Probably the most important virtues at the moment for someone in Varoufakis's position are honesty and frankness. I really appreciate these qualities in him. All he can do at the moment is play for time while looking to the European workers to come to the aid of Greece. It is a political task, rather than a problem of economics. Let us all wish them well! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Morten Nissen wrote: > Dear xmca > > It is few who realize how central are the Greek and Spanish oppositions to European austerity politics for any hope for a change that might halt the glide toward increasing inequality and nationalist reactions. So, Varoufakis is my hero - even if some of his statements may be debatable. To me, he is one of those laudable economists who are able to look beyond economic formulae, like Piketty. > > He is brave in taking up Marx, no small thing for an economist. And he is right in his critique of Marx, too, if we read his text looking for truth rather than correctness. Marx did in fact sometimes substitute polemics for dialectics, and scold opponents for being wrong rather than engage in immanent critique. And behind this it does make sense to point to Marx' neglecting to address subjectivity in the epistemological sense, as the issue of we who think and act (instead taken up by Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Sartre, and later the poststructuralists). This is what has weakened the left most: Rather than trying to reflect and understand how we constitute ourselves as "us" (the revolutionary Party, the State, the Theory, etc.), we have split up and pointed fingers at each other for being wrong. > > Varoufakis' arguments for a liberal pluralism (and "erratic readings") combined with a collective social responsibility for not just a radical change, but also for how it may come about, are important truths, even if we can find a few unimportant incorrectnesses. > > Morten Nissen > PhD, Dr. Psych. > Professor > Department of Education > Aarhus University > Tuborgvej 164 > 2400 Copenhagen NV > > Tlf: +45 30282418 > www.edu.au.dk/ > > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] P? vegne af Larry Purss > Sendt: 22. februar 2015 07:04 > Til: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Emne: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists > > Mike, > I also was struck by Varoufakis argument that everything is "pregnant" with its opposite and creating "joint productions" [such as labour's two quite different natures:{ 1] labour as a value creating activity that can never be "quantified" in advance AND 2] labour as a "quantity" }. > > Another "error" [as he sees it] was for the left to embrace "equality and justice" as rallying cries, thereby allowing the neo-liberals to "occupy" > the "space" of "liberty, freedom,and rationality" which becomes the neo-liberal rallying cry. > > Does present a theme [a sense] inviting further reflection. > Larry > > > > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > >> Greg! >> >> Is this a different rendition of the ends justifies the means? or the >> meets? or the meats? >> >> :) >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 22 06:54:45 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 06:54:45 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks for your informed comments on this topic, as well, Morten and Andy. Its important for us to consider as all of us observe what is happening and wonder, again, what follows trends so marked, that it is possible for the notion of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer becomes a part of everyday American popular discourse. I can remember all too clearly when expressing such opinions was sufficient to have people loose jobs and, and if they engaged in political action to try to bring about change, ended them in jail. THAT has changed. Right or wrong, Varoufakis seems to be honestly confronting the issue.... perhaps a case of necessity being the mother or invention. If her is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly informed hunch. mike mike On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:31 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks Morten. > Probably the most important virtues at the moment for someone in > Varoufakis's position are honesty and frankness. I really appreciate these > qualities in him. > All he can do at the moment is play for time while looking to the European > workers to come to the aid of Greece. It is a political task, rather than a > problem of economics. > Let us all wish them well! > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Morten Nissen wrote: > >> Dear xmca >> >> It is few who realize how central are the Greek and Spanish oppositions >> to European austerity politics for any hope for a change that might halt >> the glide toward increasing inequality and nationalist reactions. So, >> Varoufakis is my hero - even if some of his statements may be debatable. To >> me, he is one of those laudable economists who are able to look beyond >> economic formulae, like Piketty. >> >> He is brave in taking up Marx, no small thing for an economist. And he is >> right in his critique of Marx, too, if we read his text looking for truth >> rather than correctness. Marx did in fact sometimes substitute polemics for >> dialectics, and scold opponents for being wrong rather than engage in >> immanent critique. And behind this it does make sense to point to Marx' >> neglecting to address subjectivity in the epistemological sense, as the >> issue of we who think and act (instead taken up by Kierkegaard, Heidegger, >> Sartre, and later the poststructuralists). This is what has weakened the >> left most: Rather than trying to reflect and understand how we constitute >> ourselves as "us" (the revolutionary Party, the State, the Theory, etc.), >> we have split up and pointed fingers at each other for being wrong. >> Varoufakis' arguments for a liberal pluralism (and "erratic readings") >> combined with a collective social responsibility for not just a radical >> change, but also for how it may come about, are important truths, even if >> we can find a few unimportant incorrectnesses. >> >> Morten Nissen >> PhD, Dr. Psych. >> Professor >> Department of Education Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 >> 2400 Copenhagen NV >> >> Tlf: +45 30282418 >> www.edu.au.dk/ >> >> >> -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- >> Fra: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >> mailman.ucsd.edu] P? vegne af Larry Purss >> Sendt: 22. februar 2015 07:04 >> Til: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Emne: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists >> >> Mike, >> I also was struck by Varoufakis argument that everything is "pregnant" >> with its opposite and creating "joint productions" [such as labour's two >> quite different natures:{ 1] labour as a value creating activity that can >> never be "quantified" in advance AND 2] labour as a "quantity" }. >> >> Another "error" [as he sees it] was for the left to embrace "equality and >> justice" as rallying cries, thereby allowing the neo-liberals to "occupy" >> the "space" of "liberty, freedom,and rationality" which becomes the >> neo-liberal rallying cry. >> >> Does present a theme [a sense] inviting further reflection. >> Larry >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Annalisa Aguilar >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Greg! >>> >>> Is this a different rendition of the ends justifies the means? or the >>> meets? or the meats? >>> >>> :) >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Sun Feb 22 07:01:39 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 02:01:39 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> Message-ID: <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> mike cole wrote: > ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of > Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly > informed hunch. > > mike > But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in the EU, but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's austerity program which has also devastated the economies of other countries. Their aim is to change EU policies, not to do something different in Greece, as I understand it. Andy From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 07:09:31 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 17:09:31 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> Message-ID: Now THAT would be an achievement - a laudable one. People to think that the Greeks simply don't like austerity, that it's just their termperament. In South Africa we have 60% of the young people who are unemployed living in the townships, and we think we are sitting on a powder keg. Perhaps they don't have these kegs in Europe anymore, but I think having 58% of one's young people unemployed is totally unacceptable. When that happened to Europe in the 1930s it led to the rise of Fascism. I think the Communists are right. On 22 February 2015 at 17:01, Andy Blunden wrote: > mike cole wrote: > >> ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of >> Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly >> informed hunch. >> mike >> >> But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the > beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in the EU, > but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's austerity program > which has also devastated the economies of other countries. Their aim is to > change EU policies, not to do something different in Greece, as I > understand it. > > Andy > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 22 07:08:59 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 07:08:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> Message-ID: You may be correct, Andy. I am not being in the slightest ironic about choosing the word, optimism. The record for the last 100 years has been a little dim on the score of European (and American and...) workers come to each other's rescues across national borders when being ripped off by the economic arrangements they are a part of. My ignorance is too vast to permit an informed opinion... except on the danger's of self delusional feelings of entitlement by the entitled. mike On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > mike cole wrote: > >> ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of >> Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly >> informed hunch. >> mike >> >> But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the > beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in the EU, > but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's austerity program > which has also devastated the economies of other countries. Their aim is to > change EU policies, not to do something different in Greece, as I > understand it. > > Andy > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 07:15:17 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 17:15:17 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> Message-ID: Mike And the Spanish civil war? Does that work as an example? Cx On 22 February 2015 at 17:08, mike cole wrote: > You may be correct, Andy. I am not being in the slightest ironic about > choosing the word, optimism. The record for the last 100 years has been a > little dim on the score of European (and American and...) workers come to > each other's rescues across national borders when being ripped off by the > economic arrangements they are a part of. > > My ignorance is too vast to permit an informed opinion... except on the > danger's of self delusional feelings of entitlement by the entitled. > mike > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > mike cole wrote: > > > >> ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of > >> Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly > >> informed hunch. > >> mike > >> > >> But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the > > beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in the > EU, > > but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's austerity > program > > which has also devastated the economies of other countries. Their aim is > to > > change EU policies, not to do something different in Greece, as I > > understand it. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Feb 22 07:33:20 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 15:33:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41B89@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> I wonder if we are seeing the first critical nexus of critical/participatory theory and the information age - at least the first serious one. I was really surprised to learn a couple of weeks ago that Ireland went through much the same thing as Greece a couple of years ago. The banks were looking to extort the Irish economic system by threatening to cut off all central bank loans. Ireland capitulated (at the time people thought that was what Ireland wanted to do to be good economic citizens) - but few people knew about the behind the scenes threat. Syriza has gone completely public with all negotiations almost immediately. In a way I think they are trying to make a social argument to combat the economic argument. Historically this would not work because the information flow within Germany and the Netherlands would be controlled so they could only see Greeks as spendthrifts who deserve to be punished. The new flows of information make it possible for arguments that counter the European Central Bank positions, that the position of austerity is inhuman. When Adorno, Horkheimer and Fromm were doing their research in German factories in the early 1930s they seemed frustrated that workers didn't seem to understand what was happening to them. Of course there was the Freudian argument that this fit in to their personalities, but there was also I think an information based argument, they just weren't provided with the types of information that challenged what they saw as inevitable in their lives. It seems to me with the extension that Syriza just got in negotiations they got exactly what they need, they are playing for time until they hope the dialogue across Europe about austerity changes, not for the bankers but for the workers even in the more powerful countries like Germany. One of the things I have been interested in is that we are not hearing at all about the Pirate Party in the Netherlands and Germany which is actually the strongest Occupy type political movement in the world right now (or at least was a couple of years ago, I haven't spoken to people about it in a few years and the U.S. media doesn't mention it). Syriza seems very savvy in this regard, hoping to hook up with other movements. If they can change the dialogue is strengthens their negotiating hand immeasurably - but if it is going to happen at all it is going to take time. It is a really difficult argument for Syriza to accomplish. This is all conjecture of course. But the politics of the past perhaps sparring with the politics of the future perhaps. Of course this is all conjecture. I could be completely off base. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 10:09 AM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists You may be correct, Andy. I am not being in the slightest ironic about choosing the word, optimism. The record for the last 100 years has been a little dim on the score of European (and American and...) workers come to each other's rescues across national borders when being ripped off by the economic arrangements they are a part of. My ignorance is too vast to permit an informed opinion... except on the danger's of self delusional feelings of entitlement by the entitled. mike On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > mike cole wrote: > >> ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of >> Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly >> informed hunch. >> mike >> >> But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the > beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in > the EU, but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's > austerity program which has also devastated the economies of other > countries. Their aim is to change EU policies, not to do something > different in Greece, as I understand it. > > Andy > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 11:57:29 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:57:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> Message-ID: Mike, A further reflection on your comment, *nothing succeeds in reproducing itself better than a false sense of entitlement* Every professor with tenure, a house, and the absence of war in his/her local neighborhood could do worse than to put that thought on their computer as a screensaver. I wonder if there is a further link to the urge or hunger for "standards" and the ostensible urge [hunger] to "specify" within professionalized "disciplines". In other words the way every professor with tenure and a house is "invested" in maintaining rigid disciplinary boundaries. What needs to be "laid bare" it seems is how often the voices of criticism emerge within specified "boundaries" as disciplinary "standards". Which returns us to Morten Nissen's work and his pointing to the "could be ...". Andy's urge to break out of rigid standards [such as psychology and sociology] through "projects" which bring something new into the world may need to see through standards and specifications as the way through Larry On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:14 AM, mike cole wrote: > I'll let the marxists ideologues, whoever they are, speak for themselves. > > I found Varolufakis's article interesting... both his (apparent) > forthrightness in > saying that tearing apart Europe with no plan is not a great plan for > improving > human life, and that is dangerous and especially this: > > *nothing succeeds in reproducing itself better than a false sense of > entitlement* > > Every professor with tenure, a house, and the absence of war in his/her > local neighborhood could do worse than to put that thought on their > computer as a screensaver. > mike > > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > > > Hello esteemed xmcars! > > > > > > I saw this in the Guardian and thought I'd make an offering to the > Marxist > > ideologues! > > > > > > > http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/18/yanis-varoufakis-how-i-became-an-erratic-marxist > > > > > > Cheers to the comrades! > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 12:09:44 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:09:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Form, Function, and Hope In-Reply-To: References: <9C8EB8F0-08A5-49BD-BD01-AB101AC3518A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40EBF530-FA85-43C1-BF3E-C71AF5D8A742@gmail.com> Larry, Thanks for this intro to Bloch. I'm looking forward to more on Simmels dialectic of interaction. Resonances with batesons feedback loops? Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 21, 2015, at 11:50 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Mike, > further to your reflections on "wise thoughts" having been thought already > thousands of times, but to make them our own, we must think them over again > honestly, till they take root in our personal experience. I am reading more > on Bloch's "theme" [his particular image of the category of hope]. > The Markavis article which was posted to XMCA is exploring the question > Bloch asks to open the second section of his major work "the PRINCIPLE of > Hope". This is where he explores the "psychology" of hope. > > The question Markavis highlights in Bloch's work is: *"Who drives on within > us?"* Following is Markavi's summary of Bloch's answer [ part two of his > book elaborates this answer in depth]. Markavis on page 7 offers this > fragment from Bloch" > > That we are alive cannot be felt. The THAT which posits us as living does > not itself emerge. It lies deep down, where we begin to *be corporeal*. > This push within us is what we mean when we say, man does not live in order > to live, but 'because' he lives. Nobody has sought out this state of > urging, it has been with us ever since we existed and in THAT we exist. The > nature of our *immediate being IS empty *and hence greedy, striving, and > hence restless.... [that] must go out of itself. THEN it senses itself AS > an urge. No living thing can ever escape from THAT urging,... THIS thirst > constantly announces itself but DOES NOT give its name." > > A further reflection on this theme of hope as the "not yet" formed that I > found while exploring Ernst Bloch's notion of hope was contained in Bloch's > last book, called "Experimentum Mundi" This book begins: > > "I am. But I do not have myself as yet. We still do not know in any way > what we are and too much is full of something that is missing". > This is another example of that "empty place" that needs to become > corporeal. [the life force] > > Peter Thompson, another author who explores Bloch's "Philosophy of > Hope" wrote an article titled: "The Privatization of Hope and the Crisis > of Negation] > > "For Bloch there could be no end to history because history itself is the > process of the arrival at an autopoietically constructed truth of what it > is to be human in the world. Hope for Bloch, was the way in which our > desire to fill in the *gaps* and to find something missing took shape." > > Again the theme of "blues hope" as the "empty place"/ "gaps" AND the life > force as answer. > > Peter Thompson further adds: > > "The Whole of 'The Principle of Hope' is thus not just a listing of the > ways in which we exercise hope but an analysis of the ways in which hope > can be achieved in the real, material world so that our hunger can lead us > back home via hope and belief. In this sense he borrowed his *categories* > not only from Marx but also from Aristotle, Hegel, Avicenna, Kant, Spinoza, > Schelling, and indeed all those philosophers dealing with the complex and > dialectical relationship between the human being and the material world. > For him the human being and the material world were one and the same > thing." > > The question Bloch asked [and the question is vital today] is whether hope > can still exist in anything other than an atomized, desocialized, and > privatized form. Bloch is questioning if "late" capitalism has reduced > human hope to the lowest common denominator in a neo-liberal atomized world > where the "dream" of capitalism has lost its driving power and force? Have > the dreams of a better "world" become merely dreams of a better world for > oneself alone or one's family? [against the world]. > > This returns us to Varolufakis who cautions that if Europeans loose "hope" > in the European Union, the alternative will likely be fascist nationalist > return to "blood" and not a socialist uprising of equality and justice. > Hope is cynical, if it merely waits for the collapse of capitalism, > assuming a better world to come as wishful thinking. For Bloch it is a > much deeper question of the "not-yet" that is a "hunger" within the dialect > of the present AND the "not-yet" formed. > Bloch's hope is not a notion of "repression" concealing what has previously > been conscious, but is a revealing or coming into form that has never > previously existed. > > Bloch and Georg Simmel were friends and Bloch's approach seems close to > Simmel's theme of life [as vitality] expressed within a space of "as if" as > a dialectical and reciprocal theme. > > I have read that when Simmel's work came to North America it was cleansed > of its dialectical character, and only recently has the centrality of the > dialectical nature of Simmel's notion of "interaction" been > revisited. However that will be for another post on how Simmel's work > opened up a space to understand what is "possible" or "potential" or "as > if". > Larry > > > >> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> ?Re prolepsis: >> >> ? Goethe (in one translation) >> *All truly wise thoughts have been thoughts already thousands of times; but >> to make them truly ours, we must think them over again honestly, till they >> take root in our personal experience* >> >> mike >> >> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for this, Robert. Good collection of thoughts and references about >>> prolepsis. >>> >>> H >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>>> On Feb 17, 2015, at 8:38 AM, Robert Lake wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi again Everyone! >>>> I recognize that most of what I write here is redundant and part of the >>>> given history of XCMA, but I think we need to continually renew our >>>> metalanguage by spelling out key concepts for newcomers and of course >>> our >>>> own students. Otherwise we could end up like the prisoners on Alcatraz >>> that >>>> had been so long together that they knew all knew each other's jokes, >> so >>>> all they needed to say was "number 39 ha, ha ". "Well number 6 back to >>> you". >>>> >>>> In terms of the praxis of hope and being within the zpd, I love Michael >>>> Cole's (1996) notion of prolepsis which is predicated on LSV's concept >>> of >>>> budding .Prolepsis is the perception of an anticipated or future >>> condition >>>> of development before it actually exists as an internalized state of >>> being. >>>> "The zone of proximal development defines those functions that have not >>> yet >>>> matured but are in the process of maturation, functions that will >> mature >>>> tomorrow but are currently in an embryonic state. These functions could >>> be >>>> termed the ?buds? or ?flowers? of development rather than the ?fruits? >> of >>>> development.? (Vygotsky, 1978, p.86)" *So hope of further >>> **development** is >>>> based on present "being".* For example at some point in life , >> probably >>>> all of us were told that we had real potential as a scholar or >> teacher . >>>> Prolepsis is a rare and extremely valuable tool in education if >> teachers >>>> and mentors can use it realistically as a means to help students move >>> into >>>> spaces that are truly within their grasp through interaction with those >>> who >>>> see can look at the bud and see the fruit until prolepsis becomes >>>> internalized by the student themselves. Boris Meshcheryakov (2007) >> calls >>>> this transition a process of moving from ?heteroprolepsis? to >>>> ?autoprolepsis? (p.166). >>>> >>>> An example of each would be when a parent hears their child humming on >>> key >>>> or reproducing entire tunes in various levels of complexity, they will >> of >>>> course, under normal conditions, encourage their offspring toward some >>>> future musical activity by reporting their performance to them with >>>> something like ?when you were two, you could hum all the notes to that >>> song >>>> and I know you will do quite well with piano lessons?.Meshcheryakov >> goes >>> on >>>> to relate an example of autoprolepsis in children?s role playing when >> the >>>> child imagines ?him or herself in various adults? roles (hunter, >> mother, >>>> teacher, etc.), imitating the elements of cultural forms of behavior? >> (p. >>>> 167). Many future and present teachers for example can recall a time >> when >>>> they used to pretend teach their siblings or maybe even their stuffed >>>> animals. But this role-play does not cease as we grow out of childhood. >>>> Student teaching, apprenticeships, GA's could all be zpd spaces with >> the >>>> potential of moving from heteroprolepsis to autoprolepsis. >>>> >>>> >>>> Cole, M.,(1996). *Cultural psychology: A once and future* *discipline.* >>>> Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> Meshcheryakov, B. G. (2007). Terminology in L. S. Vygotsky?s writings. >> In >>>> Daniels, H., Cole, M., Wertsch, J. V. (Eds.) *The Cambridge companion >> to >>>> Vygotsky*. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> Vygotsky, L.S. (1978). *Mind in society*. Cambridge, MA: Harvard >>> University >>>> Press. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Larry Purss >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The theme [sense] of hope within an atmosphere [mood] of despair, >> dread, >>>>> and cynicism has been referred to as "blues hope". >>>>> The question of "being" in the present moment and only from this >> moment >>> can >>>>> we act is presented as a relation with blues hope. >>>>> This "being" which sociocultural themes indicate "carries" form which >>>>> develop in particular practices of creating "collectives". >>>>> So where do we situate Bloch's notion of "hope" within these "forms" >> as >>>>> cultural-historical embedded practices. >>>>> >>>>> Athanasios Marvakis answer [page 2] is: >>>>> >>>>> "The 'utopian' is not located - as a speculation - in a transcendent >> and >>>>> separate realm else-where or else-when. Utopianism AS future >>> orientedness >>>>> - is immanent in the present, and the issue IS [LP - being] to detect, >>>>> recognize, and discern, rather than to criticise, the blurred and >> fuzzy >>>>> MANIFESTATIONS of hope - AS the emotional energizing ground [LP - >> coming >>>>> into form] of utopianism - that EXIST [LP - have their being] within >>>>> everyday life." >>>>> >>>>> I would say this is one "theme" or sense that can be "generated" to >>>>> Annalisa's question on only being in the present moment "exists" >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor >>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>>> Georgia Southern University >>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>>> P. O. Box 8144 >>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> From juanma.duarte@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 12:35:22 2015 From: juanma.duarte@gmail.com (Juan Duarte) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 17:35:22 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41B89@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41B89@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Varoufakis has anything to do with marxist tradition, obviously not with the "clasical" one (as Perry Anderson puts it, goes from Marx, Engels, Mehering, Lenin, Trotsky, and Gramsci), in which the theorical critic of capitalism and whit strategic revolutionary issues, practical ones, as constructing political organizations and make revolutionary politics (as well as theorisating them). But neither with the "occidental" tradition, which mantained -more or less- a critic of capitalism, although separating theory from revolutionary practice. In his article, Vaorufakis writes his own justifications of the reformist ( by any means revolutionary) politics he now is carrying on with Syriza, what implies, in the last days, acepting the austerity impositions of the troika. Well, i must leave it now, but at leas i wanted to give these impresions. Greets, Juan Duarte (Argentina) 2015-02-22 12:33 GMT-03:00 Glassman, Michael : > I wonder if we are seeing the first critical nexus of > critical/participatory theory and the information age - at least the first > serious one. I was really surprised to learn a couple of weeks ago that > Ireland went through much the same thing as Greece a couple of years ago. > The banks were looking to extort the Irish economic system by threatening > to cut off all central bank loans. Ireland capitulated (at the time people > thought that was what Ireland wanted to do to be good economic citizens) - > but few people knew about the behind the scenes threat. Syriza has gone > completely public with all negotiations almost immediately. In a way I > think they are trying to make a social argument to combat the economic > argument. Historically this would not work because the information flow > within Germany and the Netherlands would be controlled so they could only > see Greeks as spendthrifts who deserve to be punished. The new flows of > information make it possible for arguments that counter the European > Central Bank positions, that the position of austerity is inhuman. When > Adorno, Horkheimer and Fromm were doing their research in German factories > in the early 1930s they seemed frustrated that workers didn't seem to > understand what was happening to them. Of course there was the Freudian > argument that this fit in to their personalities, but there was also I > think an information based argument, they just weren't provided with the > types of information that challenged what they saw as inevitable in their > lives. > > It seems to me with the extension that Syriza just got in negotiations > they got exactly what they need, they are playing for time until they hope > the dialogue across Europe about austerity changes, not for the bankers but > for the workers even in the more powerful countries like Germany. One of > the things I have been interested in is that we are not hearing at all > about the Pirate Party in the Netherlands and Germany which is actually the > strongest Occupy type political movement in the world right now (or at > least was a couple of years ago, I haven't spoken to people about it in a > few years and the U.S. media doesn't mention it). Syriza seems very savvy > in this regard, hoping to hook up with other movements. If they can change > the dialogue is strengthens their negotiating hand immeasurably - but if it > is going to happen at all it is going to take time. It is a really > difficult argument for Syriza to accomplish. > > This is all conjecture of course. But the politics of the past perhaps > sparring with the politics of the future perhaps. Of course this is all > conjecture. I could be completely off base. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 10:09 AM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists > > You may be correct, Andy. I am not being in the slightest ironic about > choosing the word, optimism. The record for the last 100 years has been a > little dim on the score of European (and American and...) workers come to > each other's rescues across national borders when being ripped off by the > economic arrangements they are a part of. > > My ignorance is too vast to permit an informed opinion... except on the > danger's of self delusional feelings of entitlement by the entitled. > mike > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 7:01 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > mike cole wrote: > > > >> ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of > >> Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly > >> informed hunch. > >> mike > >> > >> But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the > > beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in > > the EU, but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's > > austerity program which has also devastated the economies of other > > countries. Their aim is to change EU policies, not to do something > > different in Greece, as I understand it. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- Juan From mn@edu.au.dk Sun Feb 22 12:37:31 2015 From: mn@edu.au.dk (Morten Nissen) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:37:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists In-Reply-To: References: <1424495833125.35469@unm.edu> <1424544997468.62414@unm.edu> <1424566704998.31262@unm.edu> <1424570058634.59742@unm.edu> <1424578195273.74900@unm.edu> <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA73B7F@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> <54E9B016.1060307@mira.net> <54E9EF53.9020803@mira.net> Message-ID: <1DBFC697F1B675469D2CE09A9B3FEE2A3DA74553@SRVUNIMBX07.uni.au.dk> Yes, it's really frustrating.... the Danish (and I'm sure most other) media present the situation by interviewing finance CEOs who say that the Greeks owe money to the Germans but are whining even though they have such privileged pension systems. Yes indeed, the Syriza and Podemos strategy is to push for a European reform - not impossible, recall that the present French administration was headed that way at first. Morten Nissen PhD, Dr. Psych. Professor Department of Education Aarhus University Tuborgvej 164 2400 Copenhagen NV Tlf: +45 30282418 www.edu.au.dk/ -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: xmca-l-bounces+mn=edu.au.dk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mn=edu.au.dk@mailman.ucsd.edu] P? vegne af Carol Macdonald Sendt: 22. februar 2015 16:10 Til: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Emne: [Xmca-l] Re: Erratic Marxists Now THAT would be an achievement - a laudable one. People to think that the Greeks simply don't like austerity, that it's just their termperament. In South Africa we have 60% of the young people who are unemployed living in the townships, and we think we are sitting on a powder keg. Perhaps they don't have these kegs in Europe anymore, but I think having 58% of one's young people unemployed is totally unacceptable. When that happened to Europe in the 1930s it led to the rise of Fascism. I think the Communists are right. On 22 February 2015 at 17:01, Andy Blunden wrote: > mike cole wrote: > >> ... If he is waiting for the European workers to come to the aid of >> Greece, Andy, he is more optimistic than I am. But that is my badly >> informed hunch. >> mike >> >> But that is the only way out. That has been Syriza's policy from the > beginning. I.e., they want to retain the Euro, they want to stay in > the EU, but they refuse to wreck their own economy with Germany's > austerity program which has also devastated the economies of other > countries. Their aim is to change EU policies, not to do something > different in Greece, as I understand it. > > Andy > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 14:06:52 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:06:52 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity Message-ID: CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has left undefined the depth and nature of interaction between disciplines and above all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on the other. There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. After Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of competence from performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of the "ideal native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows his language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world problems? in our linguistics instead, and this meant including the other disciplines which have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, lexicography, and discourse analysis. Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics applied?, where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like forensics or compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to problems must be mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in language teaching. For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term "applied linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather than a unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which begins with the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is product and the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something rather more conceptual than complexive. Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of activity?, still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a multi-disciplinary approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling various disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping of disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and highly diverse links. Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified perspective he calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have emerged at different moments in intellectual history. The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the various branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth century, while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the study of botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological enquiry, even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic approach. In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting all of the above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according to Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain very well how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But maybe an applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in this century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and perhaps even lead the transdisciplinary project. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Sun Feb 22 14:17:32 2015 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 22:17:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] YV, Marxism and revolution Message-ID: Xmca'ers all, esp. Annalisa Forgive me for a start - I cannot face reading through ALL the thread, but my reaction to the original UKGuardian 3-page article was very strong: I can summarise it this way: - YV has not understood Marx. - YV psychologises the capital-labour-power relation - the value of labour-power *can indeed* be determined - by the wage paid for it.that statement is *not* an emotionally or social reproduction-costs-*true* one, but that it not what Chapter One of Capital is telling us - Chapter One of Capital tells us that the 'truth' of our capitalist society is a social relation - the capitalist-labour-power relation, which appears *and IS*, a relation betweeen things when it *is* "the definite social relation between men themselves which assumes here, for them, the fantastic relation if a relation between things - YV turns this *solely *into a psycho-drama of the destruction of human dignity - which it is, but - that view avoids the economic, workplace and market- based realities - YV then suggests that a way can be found not too complete or exacerbate the chaos that capital/ism is in at present, an to give a global working class some time to regroup by 'saving capitalism from itself' - *IF* politics and resistance could work that way, YV would be correct, but what is the likelihood of the gravediggers being in a stronger position when they have resuscitated the dying body - - the extraction of surplus value from labour-power does not allow that sort of concession to the exploited as far as history tells us So, whatever moral or emotional exhortations may be derived from YV's article, appreciate them, but IMO, do not accept his analysis as Marxist,, nor characterise Marxist thinking as *ideological, *i.e. partisan; if Marxism is an ideology then we Marxists are all up a very tall and sticky gum tree, adn as Marx says in his 'Theses on Feuerbach', our fallacies will be proved such by the (powerful test of) sensuous human activity! Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 22 08:50:50 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 08:50:50 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_A_Deal_That_Preserves_Greece?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_Place_in_Eurozone=2C_and_Fiscal_Restraints?= In-Reply-To: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> References: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> Message-ID: One American assessment of what happened in Greece's efforts to break the grip of Germany and the Eurozone. Active involvement of European workers outside of Athens not particularly evident. mike Subject: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints To: lchcmike@gmail.com News Analysis A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints By ANDREW HIGGINS An agreement to extend Greece?s bailout for four months also committed the nation to fiscal targets and other conditions that its new leadership had vowed to scrap. Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17FHZib To get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See Subscription Options. To ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your address book. Advertisement Copyright 2015 | The New York Times Company | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From juanma.duarte@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 16:10:23 2015 From: juanma.duarte@gmail.com (Juan Duarte) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 21:10:23 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: YV, Marxism and revolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here I leave some marxists reflections about the Greek situation. Best Juan D. Reflections regarding Greece10/02/2015 [image: Reflections regarding Greece] AUTHORPAULA BACH GROUPPTS (PARTIDO DE LOS TRABAJADORES SOCIALISTAS/ SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY), FROM ARGENTINA TRANSLATORYOSEF M. TRADUCCIONESESPA?OL PORTUGU?S DO BRASIL - - - - *Reflections regarding Greece* Greece is a supreme example of the accumulated effects of the world economic crisis. As the editorial writer of the Financial Times, Martin Wolf, indicates, unemployment has reached 26%, and the GDP is also 26% below its peak before the crisis of 2008. The expenditure of Greek society on goods and services has shrunk by at least an accumulated 40%. According to Paul Krugman, the "domestic devaluation" that took place in the Hellenic country, as a result of the fall in wages, and therefore, of the unit labor costs, reaches 16%. Greece, in the first place, is, together with Spain, one of the countries of Europe that has most severely suffered the destruction of productive forces on its terrain. It is among the main victims of the "austerity" policies promoted and fundamentally defended by Germany. It is not by chance that Syriza ? in which large groups of the wearied masses put their hopes ? won the Greek elections, nor is the growth of the intention to vote for Podemos in the Spanish State, facing the collapse of the PSOE and the Partido Popular, accidental. *Creative destruction* In Europe and especially in the Eurozone, deflationary trends have been put into place, that, according a recent analysis of The Economist, could be making way for a lost decade even worse than that of Japan in the 1990?s. The recent QE (a plan of quantitative easing), approved by the European Central Bank, with German opposition, represents an attempt to counteract this scenario. The effect of the monetary stimulus plans is well-known. In the best of cases, they are capable of restraining an acute, precipitous economic fall, and they can ? under certain conditions, encourage weak recoveries. They are, however, powerless to induce powerful growth and reverse the critical structural conditions that impede more or less vigorous cycles of increased accumulation of capital. The destruction of productive forces, on the contrary, as neoclassical orthodoxy has historically affirmed, ? with an aura of bourgeois honesty and little political skill, is the essence of a system that, in order to revive, needs to destroy what has been built ? "creative destruction," Schumpeter called it. ? The problem, clearly, is that this "wonder" of consistent creation, principally in the formation of big industrial reserve armies and suffering masses, ends up producing ? in the best of cases for capital ? "Greeces" and perhaps "Spains." *The Devil?s tail* Whether the combination of QE in the Eurozone and the destruction ? essentially in the countries of southern Europe ? will be capable, together with the renewed policies of monetary stimulus in Japan and a possible delaying of the increase of interest rates in the United States and in Great Britain, of generating some type of interim recovery in Europe ? an unanswered question suggested in The tendencies of the crisis under debate ? remains to be seen. Here a more profound reflection is of interest. The friendliness of France, Italy, and Spain for the United States is well-known. Now the "Super Mario" ? as they say of the President of the BCE, Mario Draghi ? had promised, in the conference of Central Banks, at Jackson Hole, ? on the other side of the Atlantic, and before the accommodating look of his colleagues from the United States ? a possible monetary plan, in the American style, if it were needed. The QE that Germany opposed, although, probably from fear of the consequences of not implementing it, it let pass, seems to be a point that the United States is noting down in its influence on the area. The economic difficulties for the dollar that follow from the resulting devaluation of the euro, could be less than the risk of an open deflation in Europe. But the attempt at US interference appears to be being played twice. The nearly obvious campaign of the Anglo-Saxon media, The Economist, Financial Times, The New York Times, The Washington Post, putting pressure on Germany from the "left" and on Tsipras from the right, seems a big playing card. *Anglo-Saxons* The particularly unified editorial talk, including columnists like Martin Wolf, is attracting attention. As Josefina Mart?nez and Diego Lotito say well here, the policy of release from debt, combined with structural reforms, has been promoted for a while from the very heart of the United States. However, this time, it would appear to be a case of a stronger bet, to make Germany submit politically. In the first place, by wielding Tsipras like a type of "human bomb," forcing him at the same time to turn still more to the right (a matter that for now seems quite simple), placing Greece as a sword of Damocles, that hangs over the future of the Eurozone and that of the European Union, if Germany does not yield (which, certainly, does not cease to be part of reality). They are hoping that if pressure on Germany had an effect, Tsipras, in the words of the British weekly The Economist, "will throw his crazy socialism into the garbage and will accept the structural reforms in exchange for debt forgiveness." It should be remembered that Tsipras? "crazy socialism" consists, also in the words of The Economist, in "his plans to rehire 12,000 public-sector workers, give up privatization and introduce a big increase in the minimum wage." This "delirious madness," facing unemployment in Greece similar to that to which in the 1930?s, the US government responded with the New Deal, would have as a result, still in the words of The Economist, "undoing achievements made by Greece in the area of competitiveness" ... And this allows one to suspect a bigger bet of the United States and the Anglo-Saxon arch, on Greece. If they stop disciplining Tsipras and forcing Germany to submit, an understanding of QE with the destruction of productive forces prevailing there would be achieved; Greece could ? by virtue of the extraordinary increase of the profit obtained in terms relative to other countries ? begin a cycle of economic recovery, that would certainly be based on the domestic devaluation that Krugman is talking about. This "takeoff of the Greek economy" that the Anglo-Saxon arch (Head Office of neoliberalism) seems to be pursuing, is, in reality, a takeoff of the capitalist profits. That takeoff would logically be based on labor costs slashed by 16% and much more than that, since their market price is subject to an army of unemployed people equivalent to 26% of the Greek population. In addition, foreign capitals will be able to take advantage of the privatizations in a completely devalued Greece. A booming business. Now, of course, the key is to take advantage of the profits obtained from "competitiveness" that are not achieved so easily. It is also worth mentioning that The Economist considers that it is necessary to treat Greece like an African country in bankruptcy. *Syriza* Beginning with its alliance with the nationalist party of the xenophobic right wing, "Independent Greeks," and the appointment of the main leader of that party in the Ministry of Defense, Syriza has sent multiple messages. Among them, that, to implement a program increasingly washed in continual devaluation, it has no intention ? restating something that was already quite clear ? of relying on the mobilization of the workers? movement and of the masses. The latter is a limit to its ascription to the European Union, as is also explained here. The first aspect strengthens the Anglo-Saxon front?s illusions of converting Syriza into its own tool, seeking to transform Greece into an example of the possible recomposition of the coexistence between "democracy" and the "markets." The second aspect that opens the question about a possible turn of Greece towards Russia and how far it could go, is, for now, just that, a question. What is certain is that the United States and Great Britain are using it as another instrument of pressure on Germany, the alliance of which with Russia has been hit hard, beginning with the annexation of the Crimea and the continuation of the conflict over the future of the Ukraine. Still, nothing is said. The use of Greece as a setting for resolving inter-imperialist relationships of force could add even more fuel to the fire of a critical situation. The forces of the workers and the groups of the poor and oppressed of Greece, are complete. In the coming period, they will have their experience with this new government, as part of a process that has recently begun. 2015-02-22 19:17 GMT-03:00 Tom Richardson : > Xmca'ers all, esp. Annalisa > Forgive me for a start - I cannot face reading through ALL the thread, but > my reaction to the original UKGuardian 3-page article was very strong: I > can summarise it this way: > > - YV has not understood Marx. > - YV psychologises the capital-labour-power relation > - the value of labour-power *can indeed* be determined - by the wage > paid for it.that statement is *not* an emotionally or social > reproduction-costs-*true* one, but that it not what Chapter One of > Capital is telling us > - Chapter One of Capital tells us that the 'truth' of our capitalist > society is a social relation - the capitalist-labour-power relation, > which > appears *and IS*, a relation betweeen things when it *is* "the definite > social relation between men themselves which assumes here, for them, the > fantastic relation if a relation between things > - YV turns this *solely *into a psycho-drama of the destruction of human > dignity - which it is, but > - that view avoids the economic, workplace and market- based realities > - YV then suggests that a way can be found not too complete or > exacerbate the chaos that capital/ism is in at present, an to give a > global > working class some time to regroup by 'saving capitalism from itself' > - *IF* politics and resistance could work that way, YV would be correct, > but what is the likelihood of the gravediggers being in a stronger > position > when they have resuscitated the dying body - > - the extraction of surplus value from labour-power does not allow that > sort of concession to the exploited as far as history tells us > > So, whatever moral or emotional exhortations may be derived from YV's > article, appreciate them, but IMO, do not accept his analysis as Marxist,, > nor characterise Marxist thinking as *ideological, *i.e. partisan; if > Marxism is an ideology then we Marxists are all up a very tall and sticky > gum tree, adn as Marx says in his 'Theses on Feuerbach', our fallacies will > be proved such by the (powerful test of) sensuous human activity! > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough > UK > -- Juan From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 22 17:22:27 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 01:22:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: YV, Marxism and revolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1424654546683.58843@unm.edu> Hello Tom and esteemed others, First! I am delighted by everyone from their discussion who have participated. I learn something from everyone, and I'm grateful to you all for my learning, so thanks! We might forget how magical it is that we can all discuss this topic together despite being in various far-flung and not-so-farflung places on this dear and resplendent planet of ours! As might be seen from the NYC article that mike posted recently on the list, reporting is not always very clear about what is happening in Greece, about Greece, for Greece. The acceptance of markets as the normal medicine for deciding the fate of countries and economic well being can be hard to escape in our newspapers here, it can distort any given journalist from being "fair and balanced," as fair and balanced reporting goes. (May I remind you that this year apparently there are more journalists in jail than ever before, so getting good news is becoming a major event considering all the risk that is being taken out there by journalists of the world.) I freely admit that I am suited up in a onesie when it comes to understanding the intricacies to Marx. Regardless, I don't attempt to present myself in any other way than a curious person who is looking for understanding the issues. What I am interested here is to hear what people have to say, not so much about academic Marxism, but how it relates to the here and now, the present moment that we are living today, and how Marx is being internalized, practiced, referenced, practiced, argued, practiced, adulated, practiced, condemned, or otherwise grasped while practiced. This article by Varoufarkis (and I seem to have botched the spelling of his name so others take note), was meaningful because it was an entrance into the mainstream media (at least to this here American on the Left Coast) and whether Varoufakis is a demagogue or some other kind of dramatis personae on the world stage, he has appeared into my consciousness through this Guardian article. Subsequently, I am sitting up and taking note of him! If it was his objective to get people talking, then it has worked, and if it was to get people to argue what is Marxism and what is the proper understanding of Marxism, then that has worked too. Doesn't it behooves us to keep talking and thinking and being constructive, which is such a marvelous result from being a member of this list. What do you think about this? I can only guess Varoufakis's intentions, as a former academic, still I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt than showering him in aspersions, which is quite easy to do with today's politicians. I am guessing he is taking what he has studied, moving from the ivory tower into the world, to apply what he knows with the hope of making a difference. That takes great courage. As Andy has noted, Varoufarkis is being honest and putting himself out there, and I have to emphasize that that is what I found admirable about the contents of the article. I was reminded as well of David Graeber, another academic we've been inspired by lately, and his stance to do something out in the world. And his commentary about academia (http://www.haujournal.org/index.php/hau/article/view/hau4.3.007) In Graeber's case, it would be in his worldview pure hypocrisy to get involved in government, seeing as he is an anarchist. So he is following his moral imperative down a different path. Yet, here is another academic doing something in the world, attempting to make a difference. My, likely naive, response is that it seems counterproductive to argue how Varofarkis interprets Marx when he is in the line of fire. He is out there DOING something. I felt that Varoufakis's critique of Marx, came from feeling unprepared to apply the Marxism and that he was calling to the ghost of Marx to answer some questions that seem to frequently emerge in the space between theory and practice. This is my interpretation. Here is a chance for me to see practice in action, as discussed by this erratic Marxist, whatever this means, as I've never heard this before, and that seems new, the term erratic Marxist, that is. If all Marxists don't understand Marx does that make everyone an erratic Marxist? Just asking. So far, with my finger to the wind, a few people are saying, Varoufakis doesn't understand Marx. This seems to be a constant criticism I hear by most Marxists of others who call themselves Marxists, erratic or otherwise. This perplexes me, that few understand Marx. So this makes me ask, "Are there any other real Marxists besides Andy Blunden?" OK...that was a joke (just in case anyone was taking that seriously? and BTW I've frequently wondered if there is any humor sometimes in Marxism. But OK). Perhaps this is how one moves into Marxism, in fits and starts? Anyway, what is it about Marxism that makes it something that so few understand? Does there need to be a newcomers page to that too?? A user-friendly Marxism that doesn't defy the basic tenets? Or is it an all-or-nothing affair? In my remedial view of economic history, I seem to recall that Germany had heaped upon it great financial burdens in the 1930s, which were justifiable from one point of view, but maybe not from another. All it did was create a lot of inhuman distress that circled around the world until there was relief in 1945. Are there no parallels here today to that? If so what are these similarities? If not, how are they different (outside of being different European countries almost 100 years apart in time). What I find ironic is the Germany is in the place to make a difference for Greece, where Germany once was. Rather than get bogged down in the brick by brick and how they do or do not fit together, isn't more important to see the big picture and consider how this will affect us all? If this effects us more than an engaging discussion on this list, then what can we do? then what can we do? then what can we do? I hope you share with me this line of thought, because what we each can do may be extremely relevant in the present moment, our present moment. There is saying Marxism and there is doing Marxism, and perhaps I am learning, with your help, what that is by watching this play unfold in Greece. Kind regards on a Sunday, Annalisa From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Feb 22 17:44:52 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 01:44:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_A_Deal_That_Preserves_Greec?= =?utf-8?q?e=E2=80=99s_Place_in_Eurozone=2C_and_Fiscal_Restraints?= In-Reply-To: References: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41C80@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Paul Krugman has been really good on the Greek situation and his links are even better. He links to an economist who is stunned at the NYT position (Krugman has a twice a week column for the NYT). It is the third post down in the blog that convinced me that Syriza really knows what they're doing and they are looking to extend the discussion over months (the opposite of what Ireland did). This is not what Krugman exactly says, but it fits adding in a healthy does of critical thinking, a sprinkling of Marxism, and perhaps even a dash of cultural historical perspectives. Here is his blog in case anybody is interested. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?_r=0 Michale -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:51 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints One American assessment of what happened in Greece's efforts to break the grip of Germany and the Eurozone. Active involvement of European workers outside of Athens not particularly evident. mike Subject: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints To: lchcmike@gmail.com News Analysis A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints By ANDREW HIGGINS An agreement to extend Greece?s bailout for four months also committed the nation to fiscal targets and other conditions that its new leadership had vowed to scrap. Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17FHZib To get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See Subscription Options. To ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your address book. Advertisement Copyright 2015 | The New York Times Company | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Feb 22 18:52:09 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 02:52:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: YV, Marxism and revolution In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1424659929129.27855@unm.edu> Thank you Juan! It is a good article. Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Feb 22 20:50:20 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 20:50:20 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had similar thoughts, David. The Dept of Communication we set up after I came to UCSD is referred to as an "inter-disciplinary department." I much preferred to (and prefer to, although my day for influencing such matters is well past) refer to our task as building an "inter discipline." I thought that perhaps mediation could serve as a unifying concern. did you mean to say we should declare applied linguistics as the concept home of chat and focus on a natural language semantics? Or is there a trans disciplinary description that includes applied linguistics and natural language semantics but perhaps has other contributing streams of thought as well? right now cultural neurobiology seems to promoting itself as a transdiscipline that is treads on chat. ********************************* For fun I wondered about the following from your note: "culture and history (where I take one is product and the other process)." Which is which? Maybe a mobius strip? :-) mike On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or > ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has left > undefined the depth and nature of interaction between disciplines and above > all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on the other. > > There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. After > Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of competence from > performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of the "ideal > native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows his > language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world problems? in our > linguistics instead, and this meant including the other disciplines which > have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, > lexicography, and discourse analysis. > > Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics applied?, > where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like forensics or > compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied > linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to problems must be > mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in language > teaching. > > For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term "applied > linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather than a > unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which begins with > the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is product and > the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something rather > more conceptual than complexive. > > Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and > ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of activity?, > still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a multi-disciplinary > approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling various > disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping of > disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and highly diverse > links. > > Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified perspective he > calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards > discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards > discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have emerged > at different moments in intellectual history. > > The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the various > branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth century, > while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the study of > botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological enquiry, > even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic approach. > In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting all of the > above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according to > Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. > > It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain very well > how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But maybe an > applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in this > century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and perhaps even > lead the transdisciplinary project. > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 21:01:56 2015 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:01:56 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_A_Deal_That_Preserves_Greec?= =?utf-8?q?e=E2=80=99s_Place_in_Eurozone=2C_and_Fiscal_Restraints?= In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41C80@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41C80@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: I respect other people's views. But I can not understand how, not the working masses, but the educated and thinking people are so easily deceived by the rise of such pseudo-leftist movements like Syriza and Podemos in Spain. It is a well-known fact that capitalist system never tolerates, put aside encourages, a real working-class movement which truly represents the interests of the working people to rise so easily whereas in the case of Syriza it is just the opposite. Syriza's rise is facilitated by the capital because Syriza facilitates the management of capitalism's deep crisis. It promised to do so, primarily to the capitalist system. This is apparent, that it tries to ease the results of the crisis for the capitalist class, and not the working-class. Syriza is another of innombrable experiences whose main mission is to extend the life of this system which can give nothing anymore to working-classes, especially to younger generations. In capitalism, nobody opens your way so easily if you really question and act truly against the interests of its dominant class. I strongly propose to subscribe to www.solidnet.org in order to be able to be informed of the regular statements of kke, communist party of greece, which increased its votes under such deceiving conditions. Paul Krugman has been really good on the Greek situation and his links are even better. He links to an economist who is stunned at the NYT position (Krugman has a twice a week column for the NYT). It is the third post down in the blog that convinced me that Syriza really knows what they're doing and they are looking to extend the discussion over months (the opposite of what Ireland did). This is not what Krugman exactly says, but it fits adding in a healthy does of critical thinking, a sprinkling of Marxism, and perhaps even a dash of cultural historical perspectives. Here is his blog in case anybody is interested. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?_r=0 Michale -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:51 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints One American assessment of what happened in Greece's efforts to break the grip of Germany and the Eurozone. Active involvement of European workers outside of Athens not particularly evident. mike Subject: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints To: lchcmike@gmail.com News Analysis A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints < http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+6clxRg5&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > By ANDREW HIGGINS An agreement to extend Greece?s bailout for four months also committed the nation to fiscal targets and other conditions that its new leadership had vowed to scrap. Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17FHZib < http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+6clxRg5&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > To get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See Subscription Options. < http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > To ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your address book. Advertisement < http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=45feabdd/48129a8c&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977448-February-C&ad=2.3_MarigoldHotel_336x90&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fthesecondbestexoticmarigoldhotel%2Ecom%2F > Copyright 2015 < http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > | The New York Times Company < http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Sun Feb 22 21:30:01 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:30:01 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_A_Deal_That_Preserves_Greec?= =?utf-8?q?e=E2=80=99s_Place_in_Eurozone=2C_and_Fiscal_Restraints?= In-Reply-To: References: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41C80@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <54EABAD9.1070001@mira.net> Ulvi, "Communism is the riddle of history solved." https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#44CC4 I don't have the answer. Do you? :) Andy6 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Ulvi ??il wrote: > I respect other people's views. But I can not understand how, not the > working masses, but the educated and thinking people are so easily deceived > by the rise of such pseudo-leftist movements like Syriza and Podemos in > Spain. It is a well-known fact that capitalist system never tolerates, put > aside encourages, a real working-class movement which truly represents the > interests of the working people to rise so easily whereas in the case of > Syriza it is just the opposite. Syriza's rise is facilitated by the capital > because Syriza facilitates the management of capitalism's deep crisis. It > promised to do so, primarily to the capitalist system. This is apparent, > that it tries to ease the results of the crisis for the capitalist class, > and not the working-class. Syriza is another of innombrable experiences > whose main mission is to extend the life of this system which can give > nothing anymore to working-classes, especially to younger generations. > In capitalism, nobody opens your way so easily if you really question and > act truly against the interests of its dominant class. > I strongly propose to subscribe to www.solidnet.org in order to be able to > be informed of the regular statements of kke, communist party of greece, > which increased its votes under such deceiving conditions. > > Paul Krugman has been really good on the Greek situation and his links are > even better. He links to an economist who is stunned at the NYT position > (Krugman has a twice a week column for the NYT). It is the third post down > in the blog that convinced me that Syriza really knows what they're doing > and they are looking to extend the discussion over months (the opposite of > what Ireland did). This is not what Krugman exactly says, but it fits > adding in a healthy does of critical thinking, a sprinkling of Marxism, and > perhaps even a dash of cultural historical perspectives. > > Here is his blog in case anybody is interested. > > http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?_r=0 > > Michale > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of > mike cole > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:51 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in > Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints > > One American assessment of what happened in Greece's efforts to break the > grip of Germany and the Eurozone. Active involvement of European workers > outside of Athens not particularly evident. > mike > > > Subject: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and > Fiscal Restraints > To: lchcmike@gmail.com > > > > News Analysis A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and > Fiscal Restraints < > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+6clxRg5&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > > By > ANDREW HIGGINS > > An agreement to extend Greece?s bailout for four months also committed the > nation to fiscal targets and other conditions that its new leadership had > vowed to scrap. > Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17FHZib < > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+6clxRg5&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > > To > get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See > Subscription Options. > < > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > > To > ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your > address book. Advertisement > > < > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=45feabdd/48129a8c&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977448-February-C&ad=2.3_MarigoldHotel_336x90&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fthesecondbestexoticmarigoldhotel%2Ecom%2F > > Copyright 2015 > < > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > > | The New York Times Company > < > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 > > | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Sun Feb 22 21:32:37 2015 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 05:32:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_A_Deal_That_Preserves_Greec?= =?utf-8?q?e=C2=B9s_Place_in_Eurozone=2C_and_Fiscal_Restraints?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have heard this story many times, about struggle within capitalist economic systems, how any movement "Left" is either co-opted or "allowed" to flourish--hence reproducing the very system it purportedly attempts to undo. This is, in my limited view as a grassroots organizer working with Raza communities in Southern California, a rather limited and limiting view of social change and historical transformation. Take for example the Indigenous movements in Bolivia, where do these fit within the rather rigid schema: Socialist struggle is workers' struggle --> "authentic" struggle --> anti-capitalist "movement" I think there are other back doors and pathways; multiple her-stories playing out. While global capital is globalizing, workers' struggle itself needs to be repositioned within and understood as local. I believe, much against the dominant White Left narrative of the Indigenous struggle in Bolivia, that their's is an Indigenous struggle primarily--which later, as latent contradictions, manifests as a "workers'" movement. There is also the phenomenological question of transformation and her/historical change: how do the youth and people involved in Podemos make sense of their own participation? Is it that they lack a macro-critical-analysis/awareness? Why is it that often this macro-critical-analysis/awareness can be taken so readily by people not engaged in those concrete struggles? Warmly, Miguel Zavala On 2/22/15 9:01 PM, "Ulvi ??il" wrote: >I respect other people's views. But I can not understand how, not the >working masses, but the educated and thinking people are so easily >deceived >by the rise of such pseudo-leftist movements like Syriza and Podemos in >Spain. It is a well-known fact that capitalist system never tolerates, put >aside encourages, a real working-class movement which truly represents the >interests of the working people to rise so easily whereas in the case of >Syriza it is just the opposite. Syriza's rise is facilitated by the >capital >because Syriza facilitates the management of capitalism's deep crisis. It >promised to do so, primarily to the capitalist system. This is apparent, >that it tries to ease the results of the crisis for the capitalist class, >and not the working-class. Syriza is another of innombrable experiences >whose main mission is to extend the life of this system which can give >nothing anymore to working-classes, especially to younger generations. >In capitalism, nobody opens your way so easily if you really question and >act truly against the interests of its dominant class. >I strongly propose to subscribe to www.solidnet.org in order to be able to >be informed of the regular statements of kke, communist party of greece, >which increased its votes under such deceiving conditions. > >Paul Krugman has been really good on the Greek situation and his links are >even better. He links to an economist who is stunned at the NYT position >(Krugman has a twice a week column for the NYT). It is the third post >down >in the blog that convinced me that Syriza really knows what they're doing >and they are looking to extend the discussion over months (the opposite of >what Ireland did). This is not what Krugman exactly says, but it fits >adding in a healthy does of critical thinking, a sprinkling of Marxism, >and >perhaps even a dash of cultural historical perspectives. > >Here is his blog in case anybody is interested. > >http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?_r=0 > >Michale > >-----Original Message----- >From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >[mailto: >xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >mike cole >Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:51 AM >To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity >Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place >in >Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints > >One American assessment of what happened in Greece's efforts to break the >grip of Germany and the Eurozone. Active involvement of European workers >outside of Athens not particularly evident. >mike > > >Subject: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, >and >Fiscal Restraints >To: lchcmike@gmail.com > > > > News Analysis A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and >Fiscal Restraints < >http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+6clxRg5&us >er_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=142462039721 >6362®i_id=0 >> >By >ANDREW HIGGINS > >An agreement to extend Greece?s bailout for four months also committed the >nation to fiscal targets and other conditions that its new leadership had >vowed to scrap. > Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17FHZib >< >http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+6clxRg5&us >er_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=142462039721 >6362®i_id=0 >> > To >get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See >Subscription Options. >< >http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQ >iYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=& >user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397 >216362®i_id=0 >> > To >ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your >address book. Advertisement > >< >http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.n >ytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=45feab >dd/48129a8c&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977448-February-C&ad=2.3_MarigoldH >otel_336x90&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fthesecondbestexoticmarigoldhotel%2Ecom%2F >> > Copyright 2015 >< >http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxga >nfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb8 >51a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 >> >| The New York Times Company >< >http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&us >er_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=142462039721 >6362®i_id=0 >> >| NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > > > > > >-- >It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >object >that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 21:48:30 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 21:48:30 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Online teaching conditions survey, NA WD In-Reply-To: <54EABAD9.1070001@mira.net> References: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41C80@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <54EABAD9.1070001@mira.net> Message-ID: <60768A2E-D6BA-4E52-A885-0AA3C0D65E47@gmail.com> Hello -- Back about 2 years ago people on the XMCA list helped me distribute a survey sponsored by COCAL (Coalition on Contingent Academic Labor) and UALE (United Association for LAbor Education). That survey got written up and published in Academe, the AAUP magazine. Then I got an email from a woman in Australia, a member of NTEU, who wanted to run essentially the same survey there, and see how people felt about their working conditions. They did it, and here's the findings: > http://www.nteu.org.au/library/view/id/5813 It's actually a better survey (bigger sample) than we had, and their findings are very well written up and described. Aside from the fact that it's incredibly flattering to see something you've done repeated. But another kick was when she asked me about NAWD. I'd never heard it mentioned by initials; she meant National Adjunct Walkout Day, which is February 25, this coming Wednesday. Anybody heard about it? Apparently they know about it in Australia. Helena Worthen From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 22:03:33 2015 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 08:03:33 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_A_Deal_That_Preserves_Greec?= =?utf-8?q?e=E2=80=99s_Place_in_Eurozone=2C_and_Fiscal_Restraints?= In-Reply-To: <54EABAD9.1070001@mira.net> References: <54E9FB6D.000000CF@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9A41C80@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> <54EABAD9.1070001@mira.net> Message-ID: You are rigth Andy, a big riddle indeed! :) 2015-02-23 7:30 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > Ulvi, > "Communism is the riddle of history solved." > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/ > manuscripts/comm.htm#44CC4 > I don't have the answer. Do you? :) > Andy6 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> I respect other people's views. But I can not understand how, not the >> working masses, but the educated and thinking people are so easily >> deceived >> by the rise of such pseudo-leftist movements like Syriza and Podemos in >> Spain. It is a well-known fact that capitalist system never tolerates, put >> aside encourages, a real working-class movement which truly represents the >> interests of the working people to rise so easily whereas in the case of >> Syriza it is just the opposite. Syriza's rise is facilitated by the >> capital >> because Syriza facilitates the management of capitalism's deep crisis. It >> promised to do so, primarily to the capitalist system. This is apparent, >> that it tries to ease the results of the crisis for the capitalist class, >> and not the working-class. Syriza is another of innombrable experiences >> whose main mission is to extend the life of this system which can give >> nothing anymore to working-classes, especially to younger generations. >> In capitalism, nobody opens your way so easily if you really question and >> act truly against the interests of its dominant class. >> I strongly propose to subscribe to www.solidnet.org in order to be able >> to >> be informed of the regular statements of kke, communist party of greece, >> which increased its votes under such deceiving conditions. >> >> Paul Krugman has been really good on the Greek situation and his links are >> even better. He links to an economist who is stunned at the NYT position >> (Krugman has a twice a week column for the NYT). It is the third post >> down >> in the blog that convinced me that Syriza really knows what they're doing >> and they are looking to extend the discussion over months (the opposite of >> what Ireland did). This is not what Krugman exactly says, but it fits >> adding in a healthy does of critical thinking, a sprinkling of Marxism, >> and >> perhaps even a dash of cultural historical perspectives. >> >> Here is his blog in case anybody is interested. >> >> http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/?_r=0 >> >> Michale >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf >> Of >> mike cole >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 11:51 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place >> in >> Eurozone, and Fiscal Restraints >> >> One American assessment of what happened in Greece's efforts to break the >> grip of Germany and the Eurozone. Active involvement of European workers >> outside of Athens not particularly evident. >> mike >> >> >> Subject: NYTimes.com: A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, >> and >> Fiscal Restraints >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com >> >> >> >> News Analysis A Deal That Preserves Greece?s Place in Eurozone, and >> Fiscal Restraints < >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+ >> 6clxRg5&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id= >> 1424620397216362®i_id=0 >> By >> ANDREW HIGGINS >> >> An agreement to extend Greece?s bailout for four months also committed the >> nation to fiscal targets and other conditions that its new leadership had >> vowed to scrap. >> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/17FHZib >> < >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUvlv+ >> 6clxRg5&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id= >> 1424620397216362®i_id=0 >> To >> get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See >> Subscription Options. >> < >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+ >> KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+ >> JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id= >> bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id= >> 1424620397216362®i_id=0 >> To >> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your >> address book. Advertisement >> >> < >> http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto& >> opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos= >> Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=45feabdd/48129a8c&camp= >> FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977448-February-C&ad=2.3_ >> MarigoldHotel_336x90&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fthesecondbestexoticmarigoldh >> otel%2Ecom%2F >> Copyright 2015 >> < >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+ >> KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4e >> AAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf >> 6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 >> | The New York Times Company >> < >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/ >> DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf >> 6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1424620397216362®i_id=0 >> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> >> >> > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Feb 22 16:56:59 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:56:59 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed Message-ID: This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of Simmel's approach to being human, I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker and a hopeful thinker. It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th century. There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a tradition with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, and Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its further expansion. The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the dialectic. This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of interaction. This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" and on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological realms as dialectically related between nature and human social existence. This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great dualism [between subject and object within modernity] Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's abstract conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations of Simmel's work: 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from application of these general polarities. 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most general to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a well known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of thought. 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships introduces a related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, but this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his viewpoint goes beyond these comparisons. "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a fixed meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties of form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the unstructured wall. Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as "natural" and the other side as "humanly constructed". For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide all our activity. The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his cue from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a flaneur. Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the "movement" of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content and offered no final word. Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of 1] reciprocal effect 2] form and content Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model of modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to fit into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within his approach. Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] FOR LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off from the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the "as if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. But that also is for another post. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Feb 23 13:10:17 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 06:10:17 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the cart before the horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? Natural language semantics works this way too; you will find tht "because" is much more common than "as a result" or even "so" in spoken language. Because we live here, it is the present that needs to be accounted fo; that is why we have unruly perfective "aspects" like "past-in-the-present" (e.g. "The worst has been averted"). But of course today's culture is tomorrow's history. I don't think that a theme is a "concept area". Halliday's point is that ANY concept area can be measured and treated mathematically, ANY concept area can be treated historically, and so ANY concept area can be treated as meaning. Take, for example, such wildly disparate areas as computers on the one hand and consciousness on the other. It is possible to treat both as ways of processing meaning, so long as we have a definition of meaning that is broad enough (something like "information which is encoded within other information"). In 1954, my father and my mother published this paper together. http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1721584 As you can see, it's about the "odd ball" problem: you have twelve balls and and a balance, and you know that one of them is lighter or heavier than the others; what is the minimum number of balancings you have to do to find it? They treated the problem as "entropy of information", in other words, as an essentially semantic problem, although of course entropy can also be regarded as a purely physical phenomenon. I do not want to make exaggerated claims for applied linguistics. We are essentially a set of problems in search of a theory. But the way this state of affairs came about is that in the early sixties Chomsky divorced theoretical linguistics from real world problems, by creating an object of study that was purely imaginary: "competence" as opposed to performance, and the competence of a non-existent perfect native speaker in a homogenous speech community to boot. Part of the discussion of Chomsky's Cartesianism on the list is a discussion of that fundamental break, which, like Saussure's break, really did throw linguistics back to the pre-historical (i.e., thematically speaking, the pre-nineteenth century) age. Enrollment in linguistics departments cratered in response to this; nobody wanted to devote a career to studying arcane branches of X-bar syntax. Applied linguistics (and also perhaps Communication, since not everybody interested in language was willing to undertake a lifetime of exile) was a response to this. Applied ling begat TESOL, which in an effort to avoid becoming a nursing degree has become, alas, a kind of MBA for applied linguists. As you can see, the movement has been to move towards "real world problems" (and towards money) and away from theory. It has also been a flight from history: I am teaching a course in the history of TESOL this semester, and I am astonished at the number of books that claim that teaching English began in the twentieth century. We are going to start our course, next week, in 1413, when Henry Vth becomes King of England. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign STudies On 23 February 2015 at 13:50, mike cole wrote: > I have had similar thoughts, David. > The Dept of Communication we set up after I came to UCSD is referred to as > an "inter-disciplinary department." I much preferred to (and prefer to, > although my day for influencing > such matters is well past) refer to our task as building an "inter > discipline." I thought that perhaps mediation could serve as a unifying > concern. > > did you mean to say we should declare applied linguistics as the concept > home of chat and focus on a natural language semantics? Or is there a trans > disciplinary description that includes applied linguistics and natural > language semantics but perhaps has other contributing streams of thought as > well? > > right now cultural neurobiology seems to promoting itself as a > transdiscipline that is treads on chat. > ********************************* > > For fun I wondered about the following from your note: > > "culture and history (where I take one is product and > the other process)." > Which is which? > Maybe a mobius strip? > :-) > mike > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or > > ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has left > > undefined the depth and nature of interaction between disciplines and > above > > all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on the > other. > > > > There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. After > > Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of competence > from > > performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of the > "ideal > > native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows his > > language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world problems? in our > > linguistics instead, and this meant including the other disciplines which > > have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, > > lexicography, and discourse analysis. > > > > Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics > applied?, > > where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like forensics or > > compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied > > linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to problems must > be > > mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in language > > teaching. > > > > For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term > "applied > > linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather than a > > unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which begins > with > > the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is product > and > > the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something rather > > more conceptual than complexive. > > > > Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and > > ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of > activity?, > > still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a > multi-disciplinary > > approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling various > > disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping of > > disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and highly > diverse > > links. > > > > Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified perspective > he > > calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards > > discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards > > discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have emerged > > at different moments in intellectual history. > > > > The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the various > > branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth century, > > while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the study > of > > botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological enquiry, > > even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic approach. > > In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting all of > the > > above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according to > > Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. > > > > It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain very well > > how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But maybe an > > applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in this > > century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and perhaps > even > > lead the transdisciplinary project. > > > > David Kellogg > > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Feb 23 14:20:37 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 22:20:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Es geht seinen Gang. (It takes its course) Message-ID: <1424730036481.95229@unm.edu> Hello esteemed xmcars! Here is a very hopeful story to warm the cockles of your heart. http://www.thebigroundtable.com/stories/boys-loved-birds/#k5TbtfWyt7A33qBR.99 Kind regards, Annalisa From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Feb 23 17:32:40 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:32:40 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David- Good luck with the history of TESOL! On the issue of culture and history as product and process. I think there is some value in considering a complementary "other side" of your solution. A sort of why not: You write that: I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the cart before the horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? I get that. Artifacts are often thought of as products too. At a different level of analysis, or maybe from a different temporal perspective, culture is a process that spews out history as one of its products. In a domain I know better than linguistics, I think it is perhaps useful to think of Skinner's methods as also "defeating history" by creating an all encompassing relevant history for the orgaism in the box. So as a graduate student, curvers of particular reinforcement ratios for pigeons and sophomore looked just alike. There is a rumor this approach did not do so well for language, but if I understood you correctly, Chomsky had his own way of defeating history. mike On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:10 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the cart before the > horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? > Natural language semantics works this way too; you will find tht "because" > is much more common than "as a result" or even "so" in spoken language. > Because we live here, it is the present that needs to be accounted fo; that > is why we have unruly perfective "aspects" like "past-in-the-present" (e.g. > "The worst has been averted"). But of course today's culture is tomorrow's > history. > > I don't think that a theme is a "concept area". Halliday's point is that > ANY concept area can be measured and treated mathematically, ANY concept > area can be treated historically, and so ANY concept area can be treated as > meaning. Take, for example, such wildly disparate areas as computers on the > one hand and consciousness on the other. It is possible to treat both as > ways of processing meaning, so long as we have a definition of meaning that > is broad enough (something like "information which is encoded within other > information"). > > In 1954, my father and my mother published this paper together. > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1721584 > > As you can see, it's about the "odd ball" problem: you have twelve balls > and and a balance, and you know that one of them is lighter or heavier than > the others; what is the minimum number of balancings you have to do to find > it? They treated the problem as "entropy of information", in other words, > as an essentially semantic problem, although of course entropy can also be > regarded as a purely physical phenomenon. > > I do not want to make exaggerated claims for applied linguistics. We are > essentially a set of problems in search of a theory. But the way this state > of affairs came about is that in the early sixties Chomsky divorced > theoretical linguistics from real world problems, by creating an object of > study that was purely imaginary: "competence" as opposed to performance, > and the competence of a non-existent perfect native speaker in a homogenous > speech community to boot. Part of the discussion of Chomsky's Cartesianism > on the list is a discussion of that fundamental break, which, like > Saussure's break, really did throw linguistics back to the pre-historical > (i.e., thematically speaking, the pre-nineteenth century) age. > > Enrollment in linguistics departments cratered in response to this; nobody > wanted to devote a career to studying arcane branches of X-bar syntax. > Applied linguistics (and also perhaps Communication, since not everybody > interested in language was willing to undertake a lifetime of exile) was a > response to this. Applied ling begat TESOL, which in an effort to avoid > becoming a nursing degree has become, alas, a kind of MBA for applied > linguists. As you can see, the movement has been to move towards "real > world problems" (and towards money) and away from theory. It has also been > a flight from history: I am teaching a course in the history of TESOL this > semester, and I am astonished at the number of books that claim that > teaching English began in the twentieth century. We are going to start our > course, next week, in 1413, when Henry Vth becomes King of England. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign STudies > > > > > > > > On 23 February 2015 at 13:50, mike cole wrote: > > > I have had similar thoughts, David. > > The Dept of Communication we set up after I came to UCSD is referred to > as > > an "inter-disciplinary department." I much preferred to (and prefer to, > > although my day for influencing > > such matters is well past) refer to our task as building an "inter > > discipline." I thought that perhaps mediation could serve as a unifying > > concern. > > > > did you mean to say we should declare applied linguistics as the concept > > home of chat and focus on a natural language semantics? Or is there a > trans > > disciplinary description that includes applied linguistics and natural > > language semantics but perhaps has other contributing streams of thought > as > > well? > > > > right now cultural neurobiology seems to promoting itself as a > > transdiscipline that is treads on chat. > > ********************************* > > > > For fun I wondered about the following from your note: > > > > "culture and history (where I take one is product and > > the other process)." > > Which is which? > > Maybe a mobius strip? > > :-) > > mike > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or > > > ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has left > > > undefined the depth and nature of interaction between disciplines and > > above > > > all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on the > > other. > > > > > > There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. After > > > Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of competence > > from > > > performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of the > > "ideal > > > native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows his > > > language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world problems? in > our > > > linguistics instead, and this meant including the other disciplines > which > > > have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, > > > lexicography, and discourse analysis. > > > > > > Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics > > applied?, > > > where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like forensics or > > > compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied > > > linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to problems > must > > be > > > mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in language > > > teaching. > > > > > > For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term > > "applied > > > linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather than > a > > > unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which begins > > with > > > the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is product > > and > > > the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something > rather > > > more conceptual than complexive. > > > > > > Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and > > > ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of > > activity?, > > > still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a > > multi-disciplinary > > > approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling various > > > disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping of > > > disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and highly > > diverse > > > links. > > > > > > Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified perspective > > he > > > calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards > > > discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards > > > discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have > emerged > > > at different moments in intellectual history. > > > > > > The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the > various > > > branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth > century, > > > while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the study > > of > > > botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological > enquiry, > > > even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic > approach. > > > In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting all of > > the > > > above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according to > > > Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. > > > > > > It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain very > well > > > how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But maybe an > > > applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in this > > > century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and perhaps > > even > > > lead the transdisciplinary project. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Feb 23 19:32:37 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 19:32:37 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Mike, This question of the direction of interaction [or the approach] between history and culture and the potential to make a case in either direction [that history is the process OR history is the product] AND reciprocally to be able to make a case [that culture can be assumed to be either product OR process] is a fascinating observation on our ability to develop "theories" I would like to bring in Seth Chaiklin's article [The zone of proximal development in Vygotsky's analysis of learning and instruction] to explore "functions" and their psychological "formation" as historical "products" [or are the "functions" processes?] On page 7 Chaiklin writes: "Changes in historical *relations* would incline a researcher to predict changes in psychological functions.... Similarly, none of the psychological functions are 'pure' in the sense of a biologically-given *module or faculty*. Rather they were *formed, both historically* in the phylogenetic development of human societies and individually in the ontogenetic development of the persons within these societies." So, "functions" are not modules or faculties of biological organisms. They are "psychological" phenomena that develop within historical and cultural "interaction" I have been reading about Lazarus, whose pupils were Dilthey and Simmel . Lazarus (and Steinthal) had in the 1860's grounded *Volkerpsychologie - covering language, culture, and social forms - * [whose object was to be the psychology of societal human beings or human society] Society is theorized as not a mere *sum *of all individual minds but rather the *unity *of a plurality of individuals which exists in the "content or form" of their activity. I question whether the notion of "psychological functions" [perception, memory, will, thought] which intersect and affect one another within identifiable "periods" are actually an "outgrowth" of Lazarus volkerpsychologie? Are "functions" that are experienced "psychologically" historical "products" or historical "processes" or cultural "products", or cultural "processes"? Are the "periods" identified universal products/processes or are the "functions" which are experienced psychologically [inner sense] actually Euro-centric social situations of development? My question returns to Zinchenko's image of "oscillation" and Simmel's notion of "interaction" as reciprocal [each process/product existing within the orbit of the other as constellations] Lazarus, in 1860's insists that "within the large circle of society, smaller circles are formed ... These circles, however, do not stand side by side but *intersect and affect one another* in many ways. Thus within society, there emerges a highly varied ... relationship of connection and separation (Absonderung)" Does understanding "functions" which are experienced as "inner form" involve empirical "facts" or are they more like "principles and laws"? [or are they both?] I chose not to use the phrase "age periods" as the term "age" may not be necessary to answer my question trying to understand "functions" as "inner sense" In Bahktin's terms could "functions" be experienced as "inner themes"? I will return to Chaiklin and his thoughts on the object of "thought". On page 5 he writes: "From a psychological point of view the whole is described as an integrated structure *of relationships* among developed and developing higher mental functions acquired through material *interaction. *This psychological description of a child focuses on *interrelationships *between functions, rather than considering psychological functions in isolation. For example, two year old children tend to be "directed" more by reaction to what they can immediately perceive than by their willful formation of an *imagined possibility (i. e. a thought)*" And this definition of thought AS "imagined possibility" [described as "a function" experienced as "inner form"] returns us to the place of the "imaginal" within hope and the "not yet" formed" Hope as a function experienced as "thought" interrelated reciprocally with willful formation. Zinchenko's oscillation that haunts his thoughts/imagination/possibility. On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 5:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi David- > > Good luck with the history of TESOL! > > On the issue of culture and history as product and process. I think there > is some value > in considering a complementary "other side" of your solution. A sort of why > not: > > You write that: I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the > cart before the > horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? > > I get that. Artifacts are often thought of as products too. At a different > level of analysis, or maybe from a different temporal perspective, culture > is a process that spews out history as one of its products. > > In a domain I know better than linguistics, I think it is perhaps useful to > think of Skinner's methods as also "defeating history" by creating an all > encompassing relevant history for the orgaism in the box. So as a graduate > student, curvers of particular reinforcement ratios for pigeons and > sophomore looked just alike. There is a rumor this approach did not do so > well for language, but if I understood you correctly, Chomsky had his own > way of defeating history. > > mike > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:10 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the cart before > the > > horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? > > Natural language semantics works this way too; you will find tht > "because" > > is much more common than "as a result" or even "so" in spoken language. > > Because we live here, it is the present that needs to be accounted fo; > that > > is why we have unruly perfective "aspects" like "past-in-the-present" > (e.g. > > "The worst has been averted"). But of course today's culture is > tomorrow's > > history. > > > > I don't think that a theme is a "concept area". Halliday's point is that > > ANY concept area can be measured and treated mathematically, ANY concept > > area can be treated historically, and so ANY concept area can be treated > as > > meaning. Take, for example, such wildly disparate areas as computers on > the > > one hand and consciousness on the other. It is possible to treat both as > > ways of processing meaning, so long as we have a definition of meaning > that > > is broad enough (something like "information which is encoded within > other > > information"). > > > > In 1954, my father and my mother published this paper together. > > > > http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1721584 > > > > As you can see, it's about the "odd ball" problem: you have twelve balls > > and and a balance, and you know that one of them is lighter or heavier > than > > the others; what is the minimum number of balancings you have to do to > find > > it? They treated the problem as "entropy of information", in other words, > > as an essentially semantic problem, although of course entropy can also > be > > regarded as a purely physical phenomenon. > > > > I do not want to make exaggerated claims for applied linguistics. We are > > essentially a set of problems in search of a theory. But the way this > state > > of affairs came about is that in the early sixties Chomsky divorced > > theoretical linguistics from real world problems, by creating an object > of > > study that was purely imaginary: "competence" as opposed to performance, > > and the competence of a non-existent perfect native speaker in a > homogenous > > speech community to boot. Part of the discussion of Chomsky's > Cartesianism > > on the list is a discussion of that fundamental break, which, like > > Saussure's break, really did throw linguistics back to the pre-historical > > (i.e., thematically speaking, the pre-nineteenth century) age. > > > > Enrollment in linguistics departments cratered in response to this; > nobody > > wanted to devote a career to studying arcane branches of X-bar syntax. > > Applied linguistics (and also perhaps Communication, since not everybody > > interested in language was willing to undertake a lifetime of exile) was > a > > response to this. Applied ling begat TESOL, which in an effort to avoid > > becoming a nursing degree has become, alas, a kind of MBA for applied > > linguists. As you can see, the movement has been to move towards "real > > world problems" (and towards money) and away from theory. It has also > been > > a flight from history: I am teaching a course in the history of TESOL > this > > semester, and I am astonished at the number of books that claim that > > teaching English began in the twentieth century. We are going to start > our > > course, next week, in 1413, when Henry Vth becomes King of England. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign STudies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 23 February 2015 at 13:50, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I have had similar thoughts, David. > > > The Dept of Communication we set up after I came to UCSD is referred to > > as > > > an "inter-disciplinary department." I much preferred to (and prefer to, > > > although my day for influencing > > > such matters is well past) refer to our task as building an "inter > > > discipline." I thought that perhaps mediation could serve as a unifying > > > concern. > > > > > > did you mean to say we should declare applied linguistics as the > concept > > > home of chat and focus on a natural language semantics? Or is there a > > trans > > > disciplinary description that includes applied linguistics and natural > > > language semantics but perhaps has other contributing streams of > thought > > as > > > well? > > > > > > right now cultural neurobiology seems to promoting itself as a > > > transdiscipline that is treads on chat. > > > ********************************* > > > > > > For fun I wondered about the following from your note: > > > > > > "culture and history (where I take one is product and > > > the other process)." > > > Which is which? > > > Maybe a mobius strip? > > > :-) > > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Kellogg > > > wrote: > > > > > > > CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or > > > > ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has left > > > > undefined the depth and nature of interaction between disciplines and > > > above > > > > all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on the > > > other. > > > > > > > > There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. > After > > > > Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of competence > > > from > > > > performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of the > > > "ideal > > > > native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows his > > > > language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world problems? in > > our > > > > linguistics instead, and this meant including the other disciplines > > which > > > > have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, > > > > lexicography, and discourse analysis. > > > > > > > > Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics > > > applied?, > > > > where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like forensics > or > > > > compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied > > > > linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to problems > > must > > > be > > > > mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in language > > > > teaching. > > > > > > > > For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term > > > "applied > > > > linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather > than > > a > > > > unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which > begins > > > with > > > > the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is > product > > > and > > > > the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something > > rather > > > > more conceptual than complexive. > > > > > > > > Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and > > > > ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of > > > activity?, > > > > still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a > > > multi-disciplinary > > > > approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling > various > > > > disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping of > > > > disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and highly > > > diverse > > > > links. > > > > > > > > Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified > perspective > > > he > > > > calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards > > > > discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards > > > > discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have > > emerged > > > > at different moments in intellectual history. > > > > > > > > The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the > > various > > > > branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth > > century, > > > > while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the > study > > > of > > > > botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological > > enquiry, > > > > even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic > > approach. > > > > In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting all > of > > > the > > > > above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according to > > > > Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. > > > > > > > > It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain very > > well > > > > how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But maybe > an > > > > applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in this > > > > century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and perhaps > > > even > > > > lead the transdisciplinary project. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Feb 23 21:18:53 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:18:53 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> I have always thought that "culture" and "history" marked synchronic and diachronic difference. I don't think there is a firm difference between transdisciplinary and interdisciplinary, but I have always taken "transdisciplinary" to be a kind of discipline apart, that superficially skimmed over the top of the disciplinary silos. "Interdisciplinary" does connote disciplinary specialists cooperating with one another, each from their own silo, leaving little room for interdisciplinary theory as such, but it seemed to me that of the two, "interdisciplinary" was closer to what I wanted, because it does connote the continuing need for "serious" disciplinary research and education. And obviously, like David and Mike, I think CHAT is eminently suited to the role. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > David, Mike, > This question of the direction of interaction [or the approach] between > history and culture and the potential to make a case in either direction > [that history is the process OR history is the product] AND reciprocally > to be able to make a case [that culture can be assumed to be either > product OR process] is a fascinating observation on our ability to develop > "theories" > > I would like to bring in Seth Chaiklin's article [The zone of proximal > development in Vygotsky's analysis of learning and instruction] to explore > "functions" and their psychological "formation" as historical "products" > [or are the "functions" processes?] > > On page 7 Chaiklin writes: > > "Changes in historical *relations* would incline a researcher to predict > changes in psychological functions.... Similarly, none of the psychological > functions are 'pure' in the sense of a biologically-given *module or > faculty*. Rather they were *formed, both historically* in the phylogenetic > development of human societies and individually in the ontogenetic > development of the persons within these societies." > > So, "functions" are not modules or faculties of biological organisms. They > are "psychological" phenomena that develop within historical and cultural > "interaction" > > I have been reading about Lazarus, whose pupils were Dilthey and Simmel . > Lazarus (and Steinthal) had in the 1860's grounded *Volkerpsychologie - > covering language, culture, and social forms - * > [whose object was to be the psychology of societal human beings or human > society] > > Society is theorized as not a mere *sum *of all individual minds but rather > the *unity *of a plurality of individuals which exists in the "content or > form" of their activity. > > I question whether the notion of "psychological functions" [perception, > memory, will, thought] which intersect and affect one another within > identifiable "periods" are actually an "outgrowth" of Lazarus > volkerpsychologie? Are "functions" that are experienced "psychologically" > historical "products" or historical "processes" or cultural "products", or > cultural "processes"? > > Are the "periods" identified universal products/processes or are the > "functions" which are experienced psychologically [inner sense] actually > Euro-centric social situations of development? > > My question returns to Zinchenko's image of "oscillation" and Simmel's > notion of "interaction" as reciprocal [each process/product existing within > the orbit of the other as constellations] > > Lazarus, in 1860's insists that > > "within the large circle of society, smaller circles are formed ... These > circles, however, do not stand side by side but *intersect and affect one > another* in many ways. Thus within society, there emerges a highly > varied ... relationship of connection and separation (Absonderung)" > > Does understanding "functions" which are experienced as "inner form" > involve empirical "facts" or are they more like "principles and laws"? [or > are they both?] > > I chose not to use the phrase "age periods" as the term "age" may not be > necessary to answer my question trying to understand "functions" as "inner > sense" In Bahktin's terms could "functions" be experienced as "inner > themes"? > > I will return to Chaiklin and his thoughts on the object of "thought". On > page 5 he writes: > > "From a psychological point of view the whole is described as an integrated > structure *of relationships* among developed and developing higher mental > functions acquired through material *interaction. *This psychological > description of a child focuses on *interrelationships *between functions, > rather than considering psychological functions in isolation. For example, > two year old children tend to be "directed" more by reaction to what they > can immediately perceive than by their willful formation of an *imagined > possibility (i. e. a thought)*" > > And this definition of thought AS "imagined possibility" [described as "a > function" experienced as "inner form"] returns us to the place of the > "imaginal" within hope and the "not yet" formed" > > Hope as a function experienced as "thought" interrelated reciprocally with > willful formation. > Zinchenko's oscillation that haunts his thoughts/imagination/possibility. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 5:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >> Hi David- >> >> Good luck with the history of TESOL! >> >> On the issue of culture and history as product and process. I think there >> is some value >> in considering a complementary "other side" of your solution. A sort of why >> not: >> >> You write that: I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the >> cart before the >> horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? >> >> I get that. Artifacts are often thought of as products too. At a different >> level of analysis, or maybe from a different temporal perspective, culture >> is a process that spews out history as one of its products. >> >> In a domain I know better than linguistics, I think it is perhaps useful to >> think of Skinner's methods as also "defeating history" by creating an all >> encompassing relevant history for the orgaism in the box. So as a graduate >> student, curvers of particular reinforcement ratios for pigeons and >> sophomore looked just alike. There is a rumor this approach did not do so >> well for language, but if I understood you correctly, Chomsky had his own >> way of defeating history. >> >> mike >> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:10 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> >>> I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the cart before >>> >> the >> >>> horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? >>> Natural language semantics works this way too; you will find tht >>> >> "because" >> >>> is much more common than "as a result" or even "so" in spoken language. >>> Because we live here, it is the present that needs to be accounted fo; >>> >> that >> >>> is why we have unruly perfective "aspects" like "past-in-the-present" >>> >> (e.g. >> >>> "The worst has been averted"). But of course today's culture is >>> >> tomorrow's >> >>> history. >>> >>> I don't think that a theme is a "concept area". Halliday's point is that >>> ANY concept area can be measured and treated mathematically, ANY concept >>> area can be treated historically, and so ANY concept area can be treated >>> >> as >> >>> meaning. Take, for example, such wildly disparate areas as computers on >>> >> the >> >>> one hand and consciousness on the other. It is possible to treat both as >>> ways of processing meaning, so long as we have a definition of meaning >>> >> that >> >>> is broad enough (something like "information which is encoded within >>> >> other >> >>> information"). >>> >>> In 1954, my father and my mother published this paper together. >>> >>> http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1721584 >>> >>> As you can see, it's about the "odd ball" problem: you have twelve balls >>> and and a balance, and you know that one of them is lighter or heavier >>> >> than >> >>> the others; what is the minimum number of balancings you have to do to >>> >> find >> >>> it? They treated the problem as "entropy of information", in other words, >>> as an essentially semantic problem, although of course entropy can also >>> >> be >> >>> regarded as a purely physical phenomenon. >>> >>> I do not want to make exaggerated claims for applied linguistics. We are >>> essentially a set of problems in search of a theory. But the way this >>> >> state >> >>> of affairs came about is that in the early sixties Chomsky divorced >>> theoretical linguistics from real world problems, by creating an object >>> >> of >> >>> study that was purely imaginary: "competence" as opposed to performance, >>> and the competence of a non-existent perfect native speaker in a >>> >> homogenous >> >>> speech community to boot. Part of the discussion of Chomsky's >>> >> Cartesianism >> >>> on the list is a discussion of that fundamental break, which, like >>> Saussure's break, really did throw linguistics back to the pre-historical >>> (i.e., thematically speaking, the pre-nineteenth century) age. >>> >>> Enrollment in linguistics departments cratered in response to this; >>> >> nobody >> >>> wanted to devote a career to studying arcane branches of X-bar syntax. >>> Applied linguistics (and also perhaps Communication, since not everybody >>> interested in language was willing to undertake a lifetime of exile) was >>> >> a >> >>> response to this. Applied ling begat TESOL, which in an effort to avoid >>> becoming a nursing degree has become, alas, a kind of MBA for applied >>> linguists. As you can see, the movement has been to move towards "real >>> world problems" (and towards money) and away from theory. It has also >>> >> been >> >>> a flight from history: I am teaching a course in the history of TESOL >>> >> this >> >>> semester, and I am astonished at the number of books that claim that >>> teaching English began in the twentieth century. We are going to start >>> >> our >> >>> course, next week, in 1413, when Henry Vth becomes King of England. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign STudies >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 23 February 2015 at 13:50, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I have had similar thoughts, David. >>>> The Dept of Communication we set up after I came to UCSD is referred to >>>> >>> as >>> >>>> an "inter-disciplinary department." I much preferred to (and prefer to, >>>> although my day for influencing >>>> such matters is well past) refer to our task as building an "inter >>>> discipline." I thought that perhaps mediation could serve as a unifying >>>> concern. >>>> >>>> did you mean to say we should declare applied linguistics as the >>>> >> concept >> >>>> home of chat and focus on a natural language semantics? Or is there a >>>> >>> trans >>> >>>> disciplinary description that includes applied linguistics and natural >>>> language semantics but perhaps has other contributing streams of >>>> >> thought >> >>> as >>> >>>> well? >>>> >>>> right now cultural neurobiology seems to promoting itself as a >>>> transdiscipline that is treads on chat. >>>> ********************************* >>>> >>>> For fun I wondered about the following from your note: >>>> >>>> "culture and history (where I take one is product and >>>> the other process)." >>>> Which is which? >>>> Maybe a mobius strip? >>>> :-) >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or >>>>> ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has left >>>>> undefined the depth and nature of interaction between disciplines and >>>>> >>>> above >>>> >>>>> all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on the >>>>> >>>> other. >>>> >>>>> There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. >>>>> >> After >> >>>>> Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of competence >>>>> >>>> from >>>> >>>>> performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of the >>>>> >>>> "ideal >>>> >>>>> native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows his >>>>> language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world problems? in >>>>> >>> our >>> >>>>> linguistics instead, and this meant including the other disciplines >>>>> >>> which >>> >>>>> have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, >>>>> lexicography, and discourse analysis. >>>>> >>>>> Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics >>>>> >>>> applied?, >>>> >>>>> where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like forensics >>>>> >> or >> >>>>> compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied >>>>> linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to problems >>>>> >>> must >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>>> mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in language >>>>> teaching. >>>>> >>>>> For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term >>>>> >>>> "applied >>>> >>>>> linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather >>>>> >> than >> >>> a >>> >>>>> unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which >>>>> >> begins >> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is >>>>> >> product >> >>>> and >>>> >>>>> the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something >>>>> >>> rather >>> >>>>> more conceptual than complexive. >>>>> >>>>> Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and >>>>> ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of >>>>> >>>> activity?, >>>> >>>>> still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a >>>>> >>>> multi-disciplinary >>>> >>>>> approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling >>>>> >> various >> >>>>> disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping of >>>>> disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and highly >>>>> >>>> diverse >>>> >>>>> links. >>>>> >>>>> Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified >>>>> >> perspective >> >>>> he >>>> >>>>> calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards >>>>> discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards >>>>> discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have >>>>> >>> emerged >>> >>>>> at different moments in intellectual history. >>>>> >>>>> The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the >>>>> >>> various >>> >>>>> branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth >>>>> >>> century, >>> >>>>> while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the >>>>> >> study >> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological >>>>> >>> enquiry, >>> >>>>> even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic >>>>> >>> approach. >>> >>>>> In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting all >>>>> >> of >> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according to >>>>> Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain very >>>>> >>> well >>> >>>>> how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But maybe >>>>> >> an >> >>>>> applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in this >>>>> century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and perhaps >>>>> >>>> even >>>> >>>>> lead the transdisciplinary project. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> >>> object >>> >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> > > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Feb 24 12:38:56 2015 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:38:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> Message-ID: I think of interdisciplinary as integrative, creation of something new from the original disciplines (e.g., biochemistry), crossdisciplinary as coordinating, but not integrating, the disciplines (e.g., a World Health Organization study that coordinates epidemiology, anthropology, and geography), and transdisciplinary as somehow transcending disciplinary boundaries (but I can't think of an example). David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 11:19 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity I have always thought that "culture" and "history" marked synchronic and diachronic difference. I don't think there is a firm difference between transdisciplinary and interdisciplinary, but I have always taken "transdisciplinary" to be a kind of discipline apart, that superficially skimmed over the top of the disciplinary silos. "Interdisciplinary" does connote disciplinary specialists cooperating with one another, each from their own silo, leaving little room for interdisciplinary theory as such, but it seemed to me that of the two, "interdisciplinary" was closer to what I wanted, because it does connote the continuing need for "serious" disciplinary research and education. And obviously, like David and Mike, I think CHAT is eminently suited to the role. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > David, Mike, > This question of the direction of interaction [or the approach] > between history and culture and the potential to make a case in either > direction [that history is the process OR history is the product] AND > reciprocally to be able to make a case [that culture can be assumed to > be either product OR process] is a fascinating observation on our > ability to develop "theories" > > I would like to bring in Seth Chaiklin's article [The zone of proximal > development in Vygotsky's analysis of learning and instruction] to > explore "functions" and their psychological "formation" as historical "products" > [or are the "functions" processes?] > > On page 7 Chaiklin writes: > > "Changes in historical *relations* would incline a researcher to > predict changes in psychological functions.... Similarly, none of the > psychological functions are 'pure' in the sense of a > biologically-given *module or faculty*. Rather they were *formed, both > historically* in the phylogenetic development of human societies and > individually in the ontogenetic development of the persons within these societies." > > So, "functions" are not modules or faculties of biological organisms. > They are "psychological" phenomena that develop within historical and > cultural "interaction" > > I have been reading about Lazarus, whose pupils were Dilthey and Simmel . > Lazarus (and Steinthal) had in the 1860's grounded *Volkerpsychologie > - covering language, culture, and social forms - * [whose object was > to be the psychology of societal human beings or human society] > > Society is theorized as not a mere *sum *of all individual minds but > rather the *unity *of a plurality of individuals which exists in the > "content or form" of their activity. > > I question whether the notion of "psychological functions" > [perception, memory, will, thought] which intersect and affect one > another within identifiable "periods" are actually an "outgrowth" of > Lazarus volkerpsychologie? Are "functions" that are experienced "psychologically" > historical "products" or historical "processes" or cultural > "products", or cultural "processes"? > > Are the "periods" identified universal products/processes or are the > "functions" which are experienced psychologically [inner sense] > actually Euro-centric social situations of development? > > My question returns to Zinchenko's image of "oscillation" and Simmel's > notion of "interaction" as reciprocal [each process/product existing > within the orbit of the other as constellations] > > Lazarus, in 1860's insists that > > "within the large circle of society, smaller circles are formed ... > These circles, however, do not stand side by side but *intersect and > affect one > another* in many ways. Thus within society, there emerges a highly > varied ... relationship of connection and separation (Absonderung)" > > Does understanding "functions" which are experienced as "inner form" > involve empirical "facts" or are they more like "principles and laws"? > [or are they both?] > > I chose not to use the phrase "age periods" as the term "age" may not > be necessary to answer my question trying to understand "functions" as > "inner sense" In Bahktin's terms could "functions" be experienced as > "inner themes"? > > I will return to Chaiklin and his thoughts on the object of "thought". > On page 5 he writes: > > "From a psychological point of view the whole is described as an > integrated structure *of relationships* among developed and developing > higher mental functions acquired through material *interaction. *This > psychological description of a child focuses on *interrelationships > *between functions, rather than considering psychological functions in > isolation. For example, two year old children tend to be "directed" > more by reaction to what they can immediately perceive than by their > willful formation of an *imagined possibility (i. e. a thought)*" > > And this definition of thought AS "imagined possibility" [described as > "a function" experienced as "inner form"] returns us to the place of > the "imaginal" within hope and the "not yet" formed" > > Hope as a function experienced as "thought" interrelated reciprocally > with willful formation. > Zinchenko's oscillation that haunts his thoughts/imagination/possibility. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 5:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >> Hi David- >> >> Good luck with the history of TESOL! >> >> On the issue of culture and history as product and process. I think >> there is some value in considering a complementary "other side" of >> your solution. A sort of why >> not: >> >> You write that: I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately >> puts the cart before the >> horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? >> >> I get that. Artifacts are often thought of as products too. At a >> different level of analysis, or maybe from a different temporal >> perspective, culture is a process that spews out history as one of its products. >> >> In a domain I know better than linguistics, I think it is perhaps >> useful to think of Skinner's methods as also "defeating history" by >> creating an all encompassing relevant history for the orgaism in the >> box. So as a graduate student, curvers of particular reinforcement >> ratios for pigeons and sophomore looked just alike. There is a rumor >> this approach did not do so well for language, but if I understood >> you correctly, Chomsky had his own way of defeating history. >> >> mike >> >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:10 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> >>> I take it that "Cultural Historical" deliberately puts the cart >>> before >>> >> the >> >>> horse: history is the process, and culture is its product. And why not? >>> Natural language semantics works this way too; you will find tht >>> >> "because" >> >>> is much more common than "as a result" or even "so" in spoken language. >>> Because we live here, it is the present that needs to be accounted >>> fo; >>> >> that >> >>> is why we have unruly perfective "aspects" like "past-in-the-present" >>> >> (e.g. >> >>> "The worst has been averted"). But of course today's culture is >>> >> tomorrow's >> >>> history. >>> >>> I don't think that a theme is a "concept area". Halliday's point is >>> that ANY concept area can be measured and treated mathematically, >>> ANY concept area can be treated historically, and so ANY concept >>> area can be treated >>> >> as >> >>> meaning. Take, for example, such wildly disparate areas as computers >>> on >>> >> the >> >>> one hand and consciousness on the other. It is possible to treat >>> both as ways of processing meaning, so long as we have a definition >>> of meaning >>> >> that >> >>> is broad enough (something like "information which is encoded within >>> >> other >> >>> information"). >>> >>> In 1954, my father and my mother published this paper together. >>> >>> http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.1721584 >>> >>> As you can see, it's about the "odd ball" problem: you have twelve >>> balls and and a balance, and you know that one of them is lighter or >>> heavier >>> >> than >> >>> the others; what is the minimum number of balancings you have to do >>> to >>> >> find >> >>> it? They treated the problem as "entropy of information", in other >>> words, as an essentially semantic problem, although of course >>> entropy can also >>> >> be >> >>> regarded as a purely physical phenomenon. >>> >>> I do not want to make exaggerated claims for applied linguistics. We >>> are essentially a set of problems in search of a theory. But the way >>> this >>> >> state >> >>> of affairs came about is that in the early sixties Chomsky divorced >>> theoretical linguistics from real world problems, by creating an >>> object >>> >> of >> >>> study that was purely imaginary: "competence" as opposed to >>> performance, and the competence of a non-existent perfect native >>> speaker in a >>> >> homogenous >> >>> speech community to boot. Part of the discussion of Chomsky's >>> >> Cartesianism >> >>> on the list is a discussion of that fundamental break, which, like >>> Saussure's break, really did throw linguistics back to the >>> pre-historical (i.e., thematically speaking, the pre-nineteenth century) age. >>> >>> Enrollment in linguistics departments cratered in response to this; >>> >> nobody >> >>> wanted to devote a career to studying arcane branches of X-bar syntax. >>> Applied linguistics (and also perhaps Communication, since not >>> everybody interested in language was willing to undertake a lifetime >>> of exile) was >>> >> a >> >>> response to this. Applied ling begat TESOL, which in an effort to >>> avoid becoming a nursing degree has become, alas, a kind of MBA for >>> applied linguists. As you can see, the movement has been to move >>> towards "real world problems" (and towards money) and away from >>> theory. It has also >>> >> been >> >>> a flight from history: I am teaching a course in the history of >>> TESOL >>> >> this >> >>> semester, and I am astonished at the number of books that claim that >>> teaching English began in the twentieth century. We are going to >>> start >>> >> our >> >>> course, next week, in 1413, when Henry Vth becomes King of England. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign STudies >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 23 February 2015 at 13:50, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I have had similar thoughts, David. >>>> The Dept of Communication we set up after I came to UCSD is >>>> referred to >>>> >>> as >>> >>>> an "inter-disciplinary department." I much preferred to (and prefer >>>> to, although my day for influencing such matters is well past) >>>> refer to our task as building an "inter discipline." I thought that >>>> perhaps mediation could serve as a unifying concern. >>>> >>>> did you mean to say we should declare applied linguistics as the >>>> >> concept >> >>>> home of chat and focus on a natural language semantics? Or is there >>>> a >>>> >>> trans >>> >>>> disciplinary description that includes applied linguistics and >>>> natural language semantics but perhaps has other contributing >>>> streams of >>>> >> thought >> >>> as >>> >>>> well? >>>> >>>> right now cultural neurobiology seems to promoting itself as a >>>> transdiscipline that is treads on chat. >>>> ********************************* >>>> >>>> For fun I wondered about the following from your note: >>>> >>>> "culture and history (where I take one is product and the other >>>> process)." >>>> Which is which? >>>> Maybe a mobius strip? >>>> :-) >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> CHAT has been variously described as ?multi-disciplinary? or >>>>> ?inter-disciplinary?. It seems to me that this formulation has >>>>> left undefined the depth and nature of interaction between >>>>> disciplines and >>>>> >>>> above >>>> >>>>> all between CHAT on the one hand and discipline-based praxis on >>>>> the >>>>> >>>> other. >>>> >>>>> There's a similar problem in applied linguistics that might help. >>>>> >> After >> >>>>> Dell Hymes's critique of Chomsky, and of the separation of >>>>> competence >>>>> >>>> from >>>> >>>>> performance, applied linguists more or less rejected the idea of >>>>> the >>>>> >>>> "ideal >>>> >>>>> native speaker/hearer in a homogeneous speech community who knows >>>>> his language perfectly". We all tried to include ?real world >>>>> problems? in >>>>> >>> our >>> >>>>> linguistics instead, and this meant including the other >>>>> disciplines >>>>> >>> which >>> >>>>> have grown up around those problems: foreign language teaching, >>>>> lexicography, and discourse analysis. >>>>> >>>>> Then Widdowson distinguished between a disciplinary ?linguistics >>>>> >>>> applied?, >>>> >>>>> where linguistic theory is simply applied to problems like >>>>> forensics >>>>> >> or >> >>>>> compiling computer corpora, and a more multi-disciplinary ?applied >>>>> linguistics? where the relevance of linguistic insights to >>>>> problems >>>>> >>> must >>> >>>> be >>>> >>>>> mediated along with that of other disciplines, as we must in >>>>> language teaching. >>>>> >>>>> For some purposes, that may not be a bad thing. In fact, the term >>>>> >>>> "applied >>>> >>>>> linguistics" seems to suggest a many-splendored technology rather >>>>> >> than >> >>> a >>> >>>>> unified and unifying scientific theory. Not so with CHAT, which >>>>> >> begins >> >>>> with >>>> >>>>> the linked notions of culture and history (where I take one is >>>>> >> product >> >>>> and >>>> >>>>> the other process) and ends with theory. Theory suggests something >>>>> >>> rather >>> >>>>> more conceptual than complexive. >>>>> >>>>> Halliday argues that terms like ?multi-disciplinary? and >>>>> ?inter-disciplinary? imply that the real work, or the ?locus of >>>>> >>>> activity?, >>>> >>>>> still belongs in the disciplines themselves, and that a >>>>> >>>> multi-disciplinary >>>> >>>>> approach is essentially a matter of bridge-building, assembling >>>>> >> various >> >>>>> disciplines into what we might call a complex, that is, a grouping >>>>> of disciplines which is complex by virtue of its many parts and >>>>> highly >>>>> >>>> diverse >>>> >>>>> links. >>>>> >>>>> Instead, Halliday proposes a much more conceptually unified >>>>> >> perspective >> >>>> he >>>> >>>>> calls ?transdisciplinary?, with an orientation ?outwards? towards >>>>> discipline-transcendent themes rather than ?inwards? towards >>>>> discipline-specific content. These different unifying themes have >>>>> >>> emerged >>> >>>>> at different moments in intellectual history. >>>>> >>>>> The earliest to emerge was mathematics which helped to unite the >>>>> >>> various >>> >>>>> branches of ?natural philosophy? into physics in the seventeenth >>>>> >>> century, >>> >>>>> while in the nineteenth century the theme of evolution united the >>>>> >> study >> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> botany, zoology, economics and eventually, through cosmological >>>>> >>> enquiry, >>> >>>>> even geology, physics and chemistry were annexed to the genetic >>>>> >>> approach. >>> >>>>> In the twentieth century, ?structure? emerged as a theme uniting >>>>> all >>>>> >> of >> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> above to psychology, sociology, and anthropology. Today, according >>>>> to Halliday, the emerging theme seems to be the science of meaning. >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that the historical and cultural strands explain >>>>> very >>>>> >>> well >>> >>>>> how the strands of CHAT came together in the last century. But >>>>> maybe >>>>> >> an >> >>>>> applied linguistic engagement with natural language semantics in >>>>> this century can provide CHAT an opportunity to participate in and >>>>> perhaps >>>>> >>>> even >>>> >>>>> lead the transdisciplinary project. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with >>>> an >>>> >>> object >>> >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >> >> > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Tue Feb 24 14:10:30 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 22:10:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net>, Message-ID: <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> Hello all, I would agree with you David Ki, but for Transdisciplinary, I'd say it is a discipline that doesn't quite fit anywhere because it bisects many different disciplines. For example, in the arts we have painting, sculpture, photography, printmaking, video, film, then there is multimedia which borrows from all the others, such as with conceptual art, which is attempting to use the other mediums for a particular purpose alongside the other mediums. I'd say this is analogous to cross-disciplinary. However performance art is all and neither of these mediums because performance art transcends the others as it uses the human body along with the environment and it is time-based and usually temporary. Consider Joseph Beuys, for example, using a dead hare and himself. So this would be analogous to transdisciplinary. I'd not call opera transdisciplinary, but multimedia, because it's more about the music, most of all, one can enjoy the opera without the stage or knowing who the performers are. The opera is recast and repurposed but it is always interpretive of the original score. I'd suggest a discipline whose purpose is to eliminate itself would be possibly transdisciplinary. Or disciplines that incorporate activism, to take the knowledge out into the streets, possibly, perhaps peace studies. Kind regards, Annalisa From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Feb 24 15:49:40 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 08:49:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> Message-ID: As Mike points out, there is a way of looking at history that considers it as product, not process, and one way to look at an organ is as the product of phylogenetic activity over millions of years, not as a piece of meat that enables certain forms of activity in ontogenesis. (I think his analogy between Skinner and Chomsky--as both trying to cut history out of the picture by different means--is spot on: Skinner denies the linkedness of phylogenesis and Chomsky the distinctness thereof, and both do so by cutting the link of sociogenesis!) But does this really get us back to what was so terribly wrong with the way Varoufakis read Marx? (I leave aside, for the moment, the way in which he and his party have agreed to share power with an extreme right wing xenophobic party which wants to introduce Greek Orthodox religious training in public schools!). Larry says that functions are not to be considered as they are considered in biology, that is, as the forms of activity which are enabled by specific organs. The way you look at things, as Varoufakis teaches us by negative example, depends very much on what you propose to do about them. I think that what Chaiklin proposes to do is to make it very clear that there is a big difference between learning and development--he recognizes, correctly, that the "Western interpretation" of the Zoped has tended to disappear the distinction (this is Seve's criticism too), and he wants to put that right by suggesting that the two are quite distinct in Vygotsky. We are always running up against this distinction in applied ling too--you can teach vocabulary, which specifies highly local areas of meaning, but you have to let grammar develop. And yet they are linked too, of course. Not just in the obvious way--there is no vocabulary without grammar, and no grammar without vocabulary--they are linked because any description of any stretch of language can begin at the lexical end and proceed to generalize and abstract towards the grammatical end or we can do the opposite: begin at the grammatical end (with a statement, or a question, or a command) and analyze towards the lexical end. The limits that we come up against (e.g. trying to describe 'a" or "the" as lexis, or trying to describe "by hook and by crook" as grammar) reflect the kinds of discontinuities that Chaiklin was talking about. So what am I proposing to do about it, and what is MY model for? I'm trying to come up with a kind of "cladogram" of turning points in the growth and differentiation of TESOL--points where quantitative growth becomes qualitative. Caxton's use of the printing press in 1471 is undoubtedly one of these. But the problem is that in addition to differentiation there are moments of merging too--not only inter-disciplinary bridges, but actual transdisciplinary subsumptions, as Annalisa indicates. It's not true that ALL the methods that are differentiated in the course of TESOL persist; some of them really die the death. And...those are the ones we keep teaching our poor grads about (e.g. Suggestopedia, the Silent Method, and Community Language Learning, to take some recent examples nobody has ever heard of). Some methods are horse-shoe crabs and crocodiles, but a lot are just mammoths and mastodons. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 25 February 2015 at 07:10, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Hello all, > > I would agree with you David Ki, but for Transdisciplinary, I'd say it is > a discipline that doesn't quite fit anywhere because it bisects many > different disciplines. > > For example, in the arts we have painting, sculpture, photography, > printmaking, video, film, then there is multimedia which borrows from all > the others, such as with conceptual art, which is attempting to use the > other mediums for a particular purpose alongside the other mediums. I'd say > this is analogous to cross-disciplinary. > > However performance art is all and neither of these mediums because > performance art transcends the others as it uses the human body along with > the environment and it is time-based and usually temporary. Consider Joseph > Beuys, for example, using a dead hare and himself. So this would be > analogous to transdisciplinary. > > I'd not call opera transdisciplinary, but multimedia, because it's more > about the music, most of all, one can enjoy the opera without the stage or > knowing who the performers are. The opera is recast and repurposed but it > is always interpretive of the original score. > > I'd suggest a discipline whose purpose is to eliminate itself would be > possibly transdisciplinary. Or disciplines that incorporate activism, to > take the knowledge out into the streets, possibly, perhaps peace studies. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From peterfh46@gmail.com Tue Feb 24 16:03:29 2015 From: peterfh46@gmail.com (Peter) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:03:29 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> Message-ID: <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> Hello, I was thinking about this recently when writing a grant proposal on a"sustainability" project. Sustainability has replaced "green", "Eco" and other keywords as a catchall term for socially and environmentally responsible engagement with the world. Its a concept that can be integrated into any traditional discipline, but not necessarily emanating from one of them in particular, I think it truly does represent a transdisciplinary notion. Something like environmental studies is interdisciplinary in nature because it pulls from various disciplines and is integrated in a new one. Sustainability studies on the other hand can reside within disciplines such as history, geography, philosophy etc. Sustainability studies would also fit the definition you mention about a discipline that seeks to eliminate itself. I suppose globalization studies, which seem to be growing in popularity, would be another example of this type of transdisciplinary concept Best, Peter > On Feb 25, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hello all, > > I would agree with you David Ki, but for Transdisciplinary, I'd say it is a discipline that doesn't quite fit anywhere because it bisects many different disciplines. > > For example, in the arts we have painting, sculpture, photography, printmaking, video, film, then there is multimedia which borrows from all the others, such as with conceptual art, which is attempting to use the other mediums for a particular purpose alongside the other mediums. I'd say this is analogous to cross-disciplinary. > > However performance art is all and neither of these mediums because performance art transcends the others as it uses the human body along with the environment and it is time-based and usually temporary. Consider Joseph Beuys, for example, using a dead hare and himself. So this would be analogous to transdisciplinary. > > I'd not call opera transdisciplinary, but multimedia, because it's more about the music, most of all, one can enjoy the opera without the stage or knowing who the performers are. The opera is recast and repurposed but it is always interpretive of the original score. > > I'd suggest a discipline whose purpose is to eliminate itself would be possibly transdisciplinary. Or disciplines that incorporate activism, to take the knowledge out into the streets, possibly, perhaps peace studies. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Feb 24 20:35:26 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:35:26 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] BiPolar II Message-ID: <54ED510E.2040209@mira.net> If there is anyone on this list who know about an effective treatment of BiPolar II which does not involve drugs please contact me off line. No on-line discussion please. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Feb 24 21:08:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development Message-ID: Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of "functions". The article's concluding comment is: According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal development refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age period and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could not be achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in interaction, rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their existence and the extent to which they have developed." I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are "crystallized" or "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" structures. Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will subjectively move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern social situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the goal or desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in particular historical social situations of development, not universally applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts function within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), even though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on these natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological functions are 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." [page 7] In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] which Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of proximal development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it does not refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the psychological functions that need to be formed during a given age period of development [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts developed in school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts [which are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in order to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development [verbal thought]. Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this objective zone: "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the structural relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One can say that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it *reflects *[LP-mirrors] the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed historically in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example school age children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different intellectual structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of the new-formations for this age ... " [page7] In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative functions existing within particular social situations of development when the social situations that now exist become the object of deep questioning? This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of "what if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its "new" formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of inquiry? I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought clarity to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding the meaning and sense of ZPD. Larry From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Tue Feb 24 23:24:47 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 01:24:47 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Message from Francine Smolucha: Larry, Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone of proximal development), creates a developmental model that is very static. Vygotsky, however, is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary psychological functions develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions through the internalization of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher psychological (or mental) functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, such as scientific concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete and formal operational thinking. I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental model produces crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are preordained by a particular culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. By making the term 'higher' simply refer to the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all becomes culturally relative. Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously directing one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for creativity. Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such as imagination and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological systems. This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its brain-imaging studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled "Neuropsychological Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity. Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that Larry and I expand that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources including Vygotsky's works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of "functions". > > The article's concluding comment is: > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal development > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age period > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could not be > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in interaction, > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their existence and > the extent to which they have developed." > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are "crystallized" or > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" structures. > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will subjectively > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern social > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the goal or > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > particular historical social situations of development, not universally > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts function > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), even > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on these > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological functions are > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." [page 7] > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] which > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of proximal > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it does not > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the psychological > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of development > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts developed in > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts [which > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in order > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development [verbal > thought]. > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > objective zone: > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the structural > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One can say > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed historically > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example school age > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different intellectual > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of the > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > functions existing within particular social situations of development when > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep questioning? > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of "what > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its "new" > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > inquiry? > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought clarity > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding the > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > Larry From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Feb 25 07:54:25 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francine, Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of "reciprocal interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. Is it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can imagine the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your statement: "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously directing one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for creativity. Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such as imagination and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological systems" I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and reciprocally enrich each "other" ? I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] Larry On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > Larry, > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone of > proximal > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. Vygotsky, > however, > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > psychological functions > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions through > the internalization > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > psychological (or mental) > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, such > as scientific > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete and > formal operational > thinking. > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental model > produces > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are preordained > by a particular > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. By > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all becomes > culturally relative. > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > directing > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > creativity. > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > as imagination > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > systems. > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > brain-imaging > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > "Neuropsychological > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > Creativity. > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that Larry > and I expand > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources including > Vygotsky's > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of "functions". > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > development > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age period > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could not be > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > interaction, > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their existence > and > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are "crystallized" > or > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" structures. > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will subjectively > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern social > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the goal > or > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > particular historical social situations of development, not universally > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts function > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), even > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on these > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological functions > are > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." [page 7] > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] which > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of proximal > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it does > not > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the psychological > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of development > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts developed in > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts > [which > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in > order > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development [verbal > > thought]. > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > objective zone: > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > structural > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One can > say > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > historically > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example school age > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > intellectual > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of the > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > functions existing within particular social situations of development > when > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > questioning? > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of "what > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its "new" > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > > inquiry? > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > clarity > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding the > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > Larry > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 10:27:05 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 12:27:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Message from Francine" Hi Larry, Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and preschoolers) as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, and realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking (i.e., become higher functions). But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what Chaiklin calls functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several disciplines of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical thinking, mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question arises: Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously direct their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have acquired higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's use of the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive awareness of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically follows a procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher psychological functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the terms can be used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate when discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald Meichenbaum), that uses the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk to help the client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that different higher psychological functions can function together as psychological systems. I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction means that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the individual - I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues (dialectics) and external conversations new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative learning is that it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more than the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as individuals they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. For, example if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at metaphorical thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be very good at grammar and/or spelling. > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Francine, > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of "reciprocal > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. Is > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can imagine > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your > statement: > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > directing > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > creativity. > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > as imagination > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > systems" > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > Larry > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > Larry, > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone of > > proximal > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. Vygotsky, > > however, > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > psychological functions > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions through > > the internalization > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > psychological (or mental) > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, such > > as scientific > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete and > > formal operational > > thinking. > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental model > > produces > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are preordained > > by a particular > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. By > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all becomes > > culturally relative. > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > > directing > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > creativity. > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > > as imagination > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > systems. > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > brain-imaging > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > "Neuropsychological > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > Creativity. > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that Larry > > and I expand > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources including > > Vygotsky's > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of "functions". > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > development > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age period > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could not be > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > interaction, > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their existence > > and > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are "crystallized" > > or > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" structures. > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will subjectively > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern social > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the goal > > or > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > > particular historical social situations of development, not universally > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts function > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), even > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on these > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological functions > > are > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." [page 7] > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] which > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of proximal > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it does > > not > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the psychological > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of development > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts developed in > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts > > [which > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in > > order > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development [verbal > > > thought]. > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > > objective zone: > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > structural > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One can > > say > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > historically > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example school age > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > intellectual > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of the > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > > functions existing within particular social situations of development > > when > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > questioning? > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of "what > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its "new" > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > > > inquiry? > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > > clarity > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding the > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > Larry > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Feb 25 14:27:08 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:27:08 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> Message-ID: BBC Radio Three just did a short performance of Beethoven's Fifth. Whenever I hear it, I am reminded of E.M. Forster's "Howard's End", where Margaret, Helen, and Tuppy go to hear it, and meet the working class tragic hero of the novel Leonard Bast (Helen steals his umbrella after the concert). Margaret hears pure structure. Helen hears an elaborate narrative involving dancing elephants and evil goblins, and Tuppy only has ears for a particular moment when the drum links two themes. The great myth of epoch-changing works is that they always bomb on the first night. Now, in this relatively rare case, the myth is apparently quite true. A lot of the reasons are circumstantial; there was a Handel Oratorio competing for players and audience on opening night, but some of them are not. The critics complained, quite correctly, that the Fifth doesn't really have tunes, and where it does, the tunes don't unify in any way. Helen's narrative--and Tuppy's anxiousness to hear the drum--reflect this peculiarity of the sympony. I myself have always felt the Fifth repetitious and over-insistent; I much prefer the Sixth. But Margaret is right. What the Fifth has, and what explains ALL of these reactions, is what Davydov would call a "germ cell". It's a rhythmic unit which appears in every movement and every tune and which makes it possible to see the music as a Gestalt--a single structure. And of course structure is a theme. I don't mean that a structure is a theme; I simply mean that the idea that anything can be seen in terms of the "germ cells" that make it up is a theme, and it's actually quite an important theme in CHAT. I think that SOME of the things we are discussing on this thread do constitute themes in this way--that is, they are not aspects of content but ways of considering any content. Any content can be considered as quantity, and any content can be considered as history. Also, any content can be considered as structure, which is why Margaret does not have to translate the music into a narrative and why she doesn't need to pay attention to particular concrete links to see the unity of the music as a whole. Of course it is POSSIBLE to see any artwork as performance art, but it's a little like seeing any utterance as vocabulary: there are diminishing returns. If we consider paintings as performances, we get Jackson Pollock on film (a film which apparently led to a suicide-murder of three people). Science as mere performance is simply Republican anti-science in fashionable Judith Butler jargon (Ken Hyland's work on academic writing comes to mind here, and not at all in a favorable light). Nevertheless, I think Annalisa's comment is useful: it points to a serious gap in CHAT terminology. As Andy points out, tool use and sign use are both considered, from a purely logical, synoptic point of view, forms of mediating activity. We have good terms for the use of signs (language, verbal thinking, communication). But when we refer to tool use, we say things like "labor" (which necessarily involves sign use) or simply "activity" (which is the hypernym of activity, and so like "meaning" creates confusion, because it is both part and whole).So we need a term for kinds of mediating activity which involve tools but which do not involve any sign use at all. I not only do not know what to call it, I can't even think of a good example. (I tend to think of the distinction grammatically--as a distinction between transitivity, which involves a subject-object relation, and dialogue, which is always subject-to-subject). I think that "sustainability", in the form of "metastability" is an important concept in systemic-functional linguistics. One way to think about it is rather structuralist: things remain what they are by changing all the time (in China I had a bicycle like this, where every part had been replaced, some of them many times, and of course Otto Neurath raised the problem of whether a boat which had replaced every part was still the same boat). If you think of entities as decomposible into elements, this is not workable; if you think of them as "Gestalten" there is no problem at all. Another way to think about sustainability and metastability is as a form of development: it is the second phase, after genesis and before decay and death. I think the reason why sustainability has become a major theme in the 21st century has to do with the fact that as a species we are now entering this phase; we have to establish metastable relationships with our environment or face immediate decay and death. But a third way to think about metastability is as a form of meaning: a semiotic system like language is what it is not because "tout se tient" at every point but because each part is being replaced at every moment. Note that this view of metastability doesn't exclude the structuralist view--it simply sees it as an imaginary "snapshot" in a continuous movement. Nor does it exclude the theme of development: Halliday, in fact, describes the change of English from a more transitive grammar of doings ("I hunt aurochs", "I gather berries", "I raise goats", "I make commodities") to a more ergative grammar of happenings ("The animals run", "The berries grow", etc.). N.I. Marr, the big Soviet linguist iin Vygotsky's time, saw ergative grammar as the past; Halliday sees it as our future. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies They just played structures, there is no problem; if you think of them as matter, the I always think there are I think that in CHAT we think of sustainability as a kind of development. On 25 February 2015 at 09:03, Peter wrote: > Hello, > > I was thinking about this recently when writing a grant proposal on > a"sustainability" project. Sustainability has replaced "green", "Eco" and > other keywords as a catchall term for socially and environmentally > responsible engagement with the world. Its a concept that can be integrated > into any traditional discipline, but not necessarily emanating from one of > them in particular, I think it truly does represent a transdisciplinary > notion. Something like environmental studies is interdisciplinary in nature > because it pulls from various disciplines and is integrated in a new one. > Sustainability studies on the other hand can reside within disciplines such > as history, geography, philosophy etc. > > Sustainability studies would also fit the definition you mention about a > discipline that seeks to eliminate itself. > > I suppose globalization studies, which seem to be growing in popularity, > would be another example of this type of transdisciplinary concept > > Best, > > Peter > > > On Feb 25, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > I would agree with you David Ki, but for Transdisciplinary, I'd say it > is a discipline that doesn't quite fit anywhere because it bisects many > different disciplines. > > > > For example, in the arts we have painting, sculpture, photography, > printmaking, video, film, then there is multimedia which borrows from all > the others, such as with conceptual art, which is attempting to use the > other mediums for a particular purpose alongside the other mediums. I'd say > this is analogous to cross-disciplinary. > > > > However performance art is all and neither of these mediums because > performance art transcends the others as it uses the human body along with > the environment and it is time-based and usually temporary. Consider Joseph > Beuys, for example, using a dead hare and himself. So this would be > analogous to transdisciplinary. > > > > I'd not call opera transdisciplinary, but multimedia, because it's more > about the music, most of all, one can enjoy the opera without the stage or > knowing who the performers are. The opera is recast and repurposed but it > is always interpretive of the original score. > > > > I'd suggest a discipline whose purpose is to eliminate itself would be > possibly transdisciplinary. Or disciplines that incorporate activism, to > take the knowledge out into the streets, possibly, perhaps peace studies. > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 25 15:53:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:53:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1424908424143.6153@unm.edu> Larry, Would you mind to send to the list something by Gadamer that you find applicable to your points? I'm curious? Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Feb 25 16:19:48 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 00:19:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1424909988524.66825@unm.edu> Hi all, David, yes, of course when I said performance art, I meant the kind of performance art along the lines of John Cage, and Joseph Beuys. Not performance such as theater arts, opera, film, television, or music concerts. Not to diminish them as art, but to distinguish them from art that is performed, possibly never to be performed again. It is by its nature experimental, and suitably political, because performance art as I referenced it is art that seeks to avoid its commodification into an object that then becomes fetishized into a product. This art is, I hope, art that tends to The Original, rather than The Copy, in its search to help the viewer see Something New about the world. Jackson Pollack's performance of the abstract expressionist painting (as a verb) approaches this, but then doesn't because it was filmed, allowing the filmed version to become the one that is remembered as The Original, when it really is The Copy. I was wondering if you would mind making your thought-flights a little more connected about that to Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity? Only because I am unable to do that myself and could use some help. What are the gaps in CHAT exactly ? What do you mean that activity and labor are not sufficient ? What is wrong with the word, "creativity" as the word to describe mediating activity using tools? Of course this can be with signs or without signs. Or perhaps problem-solving vs problem-finding? Unfortunately these phrases have some history that may be undesired?. Also, I had also considered genocide studies to be a discipline that has the purpose to eliminate itself as well. A study of the nature of ignorance, and the nature of poverty, as well. Anything that is undesirable in human existence with the hope to eradicate it from existence might be such a transdiscipline, if it appeals as a definition to be a discipline it eliminates itself. Also, isn't the point about product vs. process to really show that there is no such thing as a product? That everything is a process, but the conception of a product is actually created through framing ? This framing is not done in the world per se, but done cognitively. Also, not all processes occur at the same speed, consider biological evolution and cultural evolution... Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Feb 25 19:19:41 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 19:19:41 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: <1424908424143.6153@unm.edu> References: <1424908424143.6153@unm.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, I recommend going to a special volume of the journal "Theory, Culture, and Society" 2006, volume. 23 (1): This volume presents 4 key essays by Gadamer, and also includes anintroduction by Richard Palmer [see Martin Packer's chapter on hermeneutics recently sent to XMCA for an introduction to Palmer]. There is also another article which is a conversation between Grondin and Gadamer on the impact of Gadamer's work for the social sciences. Gadamer's focus is on understanding "understanding" and understanding is the fact that "language and thinking" are inseparable. For Gadamer language is a "repository" of culture and reveals the "thought forms" of a culture. Gadamer views understanding as a "fabric", a network of understandings [verbal thought forms] out of which we understand what we understand that "resides" in previous understandings deposited in language. Gadamer's view of language is radically not like scientific views of language that approach language abstractly in terms of contextless assertions of logic. For Gadamer, language is constantly building up and bearing "within itself" the commonality of a "world orientation". It is this "fabric of shared meanings [this orientation, this approach] that creates a common social world that makes social "solidarity" possible. Gadamer's INCLUSION of this background of shared understandings [inseparable thought and language] which Gadamer says is lacking in the abstractness of "scientific" treatments of language. I believe Francine's and Seth's notions of "functions" can be seen as "approaching" the same themes as Gadamer. Accessing the special issue of the journal I mentioned is a way into Gadamer's approach to "philosophical" hermeneutics. Larry On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > Larry, > > Would you mind to send to the list something by Gadamer that you find > applicable to your points? > > I'm curious? > > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Feb 25 22:05:59 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 23:05:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> Message-ID: David and Anna: A video of Joseph Beuys performing and explaining his famous work, to which Anna was referring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HVOCay10m8 I liked it a lot. David: I have heard about transitivity vs. ergativity for a long time, but don?t get it yet. Does Halliday discuss it in either of the books I have of his: Explorations in the Functions of Lg or Learning How to Mean? I am convinced I can?t call myself a linguist unless I get this distinction right. I have been wondering if a transactional theory of reading is relevant to the thread: http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-926/theory.htm And I can?t help thinking about ?trannies?. I mean no disrespect here. Nor do I see transsexuals simply as a recent stage in the sexual revolution. My Navajo extended family is a goldmine of transgendering. I am convinced it is as much artistic expression as it is the expression of ?sexual orientation?. So this would be another golden thread for me. With some stretchability, so expansiveness to it. Henry > On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:27 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > BBC Radio Three just did a short performance of Beethoven's Fifth. Whenever > I hear it, I am reminded of E.M. Forster's "Howard's End", where Margaret, > Helen, and Tuppy go to hear it, and meet the working class tragic hero of > the novel Leonard Bast (Helen steals his umbrella after the concert). > Margaret hears pure structure. Helen hears an elaborate narrative involving > dancing elephants and evil goblins, and Tuppy only has ears for a > particular moment when the drum links two themes. > > The great myth of epoch-changing works is that they always bomb on the > first night. Now, in this relatively rare case, the myth is apparently > quite true. A lot of the reasons are circumstantial; there was a Handel > Oratorio competing for players and audience on opening night, but some of > them are not. The critics complained, quite correctly, that the Fifth > doesn't really have tunes, and where it does, the tunes don't unify in any > way. Helen's narrative--and Tuppy's anxiousness to hear the drum--reflect > this peculiarity of the sympony. I myself have always felt the Fifth > repetitious and over-insistent; I much prefer the Sixth. > > But Margaret is right. What the Fifth has, and what explains ALL of these > reactions, is what Davydov would call a "germ cell". It's a rhythmic unit > which appears in every movement and every tune and which makes it possible > to see the music as a Gestalt--a single structure. And of course structure > is a theme. I don't mean that a structure is a theme; I simply mean that > the idea that anything can be seen in terms of the "germ cells" that make > it up is a theme, and it's actually quite an important theme in CHAT. > > I think that SOME of the things we are discussing on this thread do > constitute themes in this way--that is, they are not aspects of content but > ways of considering any content. Any content can be considered as quantity, > and any content can be considered as history. Also, any content can be > considered as structure, which is why Margaret does not have to translate > the music into a narrative and why she doesn't need to pay attention to > particular concrete links to see the unity of the music as a whole. > > Of course it is POSSIBLE to see any artwork as performance art, but it's a > little like seeing any utterance as vocabulary: there are diminishing > returns. If we consider paintings as performances, we get Jackson Pollock > on film (a film which apparently led to a suicide-murder of three people). > Science as mere performance is simply Republican anti-science in > fashionable Judith Butler jargon (Ken Hyland's work on academic writing > comes to mind here, and not at all in a favorable light). Nevertheless, I > think Annalisa's comment is useful: it points to a serious gap in CHAT > terminology. > > As Andy points out, tool use and sign use are both considered, from a > purely logical, synoptic point of view, forms of mediating activity. We > have good terms for the use of signs (language, verbal thinking, > communication). But when we refer to tool use, we say things like "labor" > (which necessarily involves sign use) or simply "activity" (which is the > hypernym of activity, and so like "meaning" creates confusion, because it > is both part and whole).So we need a term for kinds of mediating activity > which involve tools but which do not involve any sign use at all. I not > only do not know what to call it, I can't even think of a good example. (I > tend to think of the distinction grammatically--as a distinction between > transitivity, which involves a subject-object relation, and dialogue, which > is always subject-to-subject). > > I think that "sustainability", in the form of "metastability" is an > important concept in systemic-functional linguistics. One way to think > about it is rather structuralist: things remain what they are by changing > all the time (in China I had a bicycle like this, where every part had been > replaced, some of them many times, and of course Otto Neurath raised the > problem of whether a boat which had replaced every part was still the same > boat). If you think of entities as decomposible into elements, this is not > workable; if you think of them as "Gestalten" there is no problem at all. > > Another way to think about sustainability and metastability is as a form of > development: it is the second phase, after genesis and before decay and > death. I think the reason why sustainability has become a major theme in > the 21st century has to do with the fact that as a species we are now > entering this phase; we have to establish metastable relationships with our > environment or face immediate decay and death. > > But a third way to think about metastability is as a form of meaning: a > semiotic system like language is what it is not because "tout se tient" at > every point but because each part is being replaced at every moment. Note > that this view of metastability doesn't exclude the structuralist view--it > simply sees it as an imaginary "snapshot" in a continuous movement. Nor > does it exclude the theme of development: Halliday, in fact, describes the > change of English from a more transitive grammar of doings ("I hunt > aurochs", "I gather berries", "I raise goats", "I make commodities") to a > more ergative grammar of happenings ("The animals run", "The berries grow", > etc.). N.I. Marr, the big Soviet linguist iin Vygotsky's time, saw ergative > grammar as the past; Halliday sees it as our future. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > They just played structures, there is no problem; if you think of them as > matter, the > > I always think there are I think that in CHAT we think of sustainability > as a kind of development. > > On 25 February 2015 at 09:03, Peter wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I was thinking about this recently when writing a grant proposal on >> a"sustainability" project. Sustainability has replaced "green", "Eco" and >> other keywords as a catchall term for socially and environmentally >> responsible engagement with the world. Its a concept that can be integrated >> into any traditional discipline, but not necessarily emanating from one of >> them in particular, I think it truly does represent a transdisciplinary >> notion. Something like environmental studies is interdisciplinary in nature >> because it pulls from various disciplines and is integrated in a new one. >> Sustainability studies on the other hand can reside within disciplines such >> as history, geography, philosophy etc. >> >> Sustainability studies would also fit the definition you mention about a >> discipline that seeks to eliminate itself. >> >> I suppose globalization studies, which seem to be growing in popularity, >> would be another example of this type of transdisciplinary concept >> >> Best, >> >> Peter >> >>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I would agree with you David Ki, but for Transdisciplinary, I'd say it >> is a discipline that doesn't quite fit anywhere because it bisects many >> different disciplines. >>> >>> For example, in the arts we have painting, sculpture, photography, >> printmaking, video, film, then there is multimedia which borrows from all >> the others, such as with conceptual art, which is attempting to use the >> other mediums for a particular purpose alongside the other mediums. I'd say >> this is analogous to cross-disciplinary. >>> >>> However performance art is all and neither of these mediums because >> performance art transcends the others as it uses the human body along with >> the environment and it is time-based and usually temporary. Consider Joseph >> Beuys, for example, using a dead hare and himself. So this would be >> analogous to transdisciplinary. >>> >>> I'd not call opera transdisciplinary, but multimedia, because it's more >> about the music, most of all, one can enjoy the opera without the stage or >> knowing who the performers are. The opera is recast and repurposed but it >> is always interpretive of the original score. >>> >>> I'd suggest a discipline whose purpose is to eliminate itself would be >> possibly transdisciplinary. Or disciplines that incorporate activism, to >> take the knowledge out into the streets, possibly, perhaps peace studies. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Feb 26 08:38:45 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 09:38:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Hyper-text Message-ID: People, I found this in the NY Times this morning: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of Alice in Wonderland. Henry From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Feb 26 09:16:53 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:16:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Hyper-text: A correction References: Message-ID: <526A0B81-4688-43C5-81EB-94B962ADCF91@gmail.com> Apparently Alice was published on July 4, 1865 by McMillan! Hmmm?Yet, I?ve been listening to a podcast of the Diane Rehm show (wonderful radio!) today commemorating the 150th anniversary of Alice?s publication. Go figure. H > Begin forwarded message: > > From: HENRY SHONERD > Subject: Hyper-text > Date: February 26, 2015 at 9:38:45 AM MST > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > People, > I found this in the NY Times this morning: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > > Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of Alice in Wonderland. > > Henry > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Feb 26 09:26:53 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:26:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Hyper-text: A correction In-Reply-To: <526A0B81-4688-43C5-81EB-94B962ADCF91@gmail.com> References: <526A0B81-4688-43C5-81EB-94B962ADCF91@gmail.com> Message-ID: ?Henry, seems like you've dropped down the rabbit hole... And for that errata: "'Off with your head!' said the Queen" -greg? On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:16 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Apparently Alice was published on July 4, 1865 by McMillan! Hmmm?Yet, I?ve > been listening to a podcast of the Diane Rehm show (wonderful radio!) > today commemorating the 150th anniversary of Alice?s publication. Go figure. > H > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: HENRY SHONERD > > Subject: Hyper-text > > Date: February 26, 2015 at 9:38:45 AM MST > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > People, > > I found this in the NY Times this morning: > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > < > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > > > > > > Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of > Alice in Wonderland. > > > > Henry > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Feb 26 09:45:51 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:45:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text: A correction In-Reply-To: References: <526A0B81-4688-43C5-81EB-94B962ADCF91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <38EE66C9-0418-4738-A69C-A1B6C69D0503@gmail.com> Greg, The Queen then, ISIS now! Plus ca change. It all makes no more sense today than it did then. Any less? H > On Feb 26, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > ?Henry, seems like you've dropped down the rabbit hole... > > And for that errata: "'Off with your head!' said the Queen" > > -greg? > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:16 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Apparently Alice was published on July 4, 1865 by McMillan! Hmmm?Yet, I?ve >> been listening to a podcast of the Diane Rehm show (wonderful radio!) >> today commemorating the 150th anniversary of Alice?s publication. Go figure. >> H >> >> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: HENRY SHONERD >>> Subject: Hyper-text >>> Date: February 26, 2015 at 9:38:45 AM MST >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> People, >>> I found this in the NY Times this morning: >>> >>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >> < >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >>> >>> >>> Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of >> Alice in Wonderland. >>> >>> Henry >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Feb 26 13:54:03 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 06:54:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anna & Henry: When Vygotsky speaks of "meaning", he distinguishes two kinds. In English, these two kinds are "sense" and "significance", but this is just borrowed from French (from Paulhan). In Russian the terms he uses are "sense" and..."meaning"! When Volosinov speaks of "meaning", he also distinguishes two kinds. In English these are translated as "theme" and "meaning", but in Russian the terms are "tema" and...once again, meaning You can see that there's a terminological problem: if you say "meaning" we don't know if you mean the overall, general, hypernym--the meaning that includes both kinds of meaning--or the more concrete, specific, hyponym--the meaning which, alongside "theme" or "sense", is only one kind of meaning. When we translated Thinking and Speech, we solved the problem by using "value" for general meaning and then "sense-value" and "significance-value" for the two types of meaning. This translation problem is what led one of our members to the insight that what Vygotsky really has in mind is the difference between value on the one hand and use-value and exchange-vaule on the other which Marx makes in the first volume of Capital. Now, in the second chapter of Vygotsky's "History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions", when Vygotsky speaks of mediating activity, he distinguishes two kinds: tool-mediation and sign-mediation. He warns that the precise genetic relationship of these terms has to be worked out--that is, someone needs to write a Capital or a Thinking and Speech that will explain how one of them emerges from the other. He says that people who confuse or collapse the difference between them fall into three types: psychologists using sloppy metaphors that have no content (e.g. "Geistestechnik", or "Tools of the Mind"), pragmatists who ignore the distinction (John Dewey is mentioned), and enthusiasts of technology making hyperbolic and over-literal claims for the psychological effects of technology use (Ernst Kapp, Wilhelm Wundt, and William Dwight Whitney)...see Eng. Collected Works, Vol. 2, p. 60-61). Obviously, we have the same problem today. The most commonly used neo-Vygotskyan book in early education is undoubtedly "Tools of the Mind", by Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong. The most widely read biography of Vygotsky is Kozulin's book "Psychological Tools". Any version of the Engestrom triangle will show that tools/signs are conflated at the apex of the triangle. In order to write a "Capital" or a "Thinking and Speech" of mediating activity (that is, in order to determine genetically, functionally, and then structurally the precise linkedness-but-distinctness that we find between the two kinds of mediating activity), we need to do some terminological work. In particular, we need to make sure that we do not use the term 'activity" to refer to both person-to-environment interaction (where there is a subject-to-object relationship since our days as hunter gatherers) and person-to-person interaction (where there is a subject-to-subject relationship since language was first invented). If we do this, we fall into the same confusion as if we use "meaning" to refer to both the hypernym and the hyponym. The same thing happens if we use the term creativity or performance or process--if we really care about these things, we'll develop a terminology that shows that we appreciate the fine distinctions. And in fact in this case the difference is not that fine at all--it's a difference between treating your interactional partner as an acorn tree, an berry bush or a wild auroch and treating them as another human being who can and will in good time be able to act on you the way you have just acted upon him/her. Compare: a) "I cut down the forest." b) "The forest grew." c) "The forest saw/felt/thought/spoke of many changes happening." The first, transitive, relationship is straight SVO--subject, verb, object. It's a manly relationship that expresses human action on objects, and it's the core of grammar for most of what Whorf called the Standard Average European languages, including English. The second, ergative, one is actually more common in languages like Urdu, Korean, Chinese. It's (S)V or sometimes SOV--you introduce the participants and then you describe the process link between them. English does this too, of course--I just did it when I said the forest grew. According to N.I. Marr, a Soviet linguist who apparently attended the seminars that Vygotsky and Luria attended along with Eisenstien,this is a more ancient way of talking about the world which corresponds to hunter-gatherer and pastoral societies and it falls away when people begin to farm and produce commodities in factories. But Halliday says this is actually a vulgar Marxist simplification--the truth is that scientific English, if anything, prefers the ergative b) to the transitive a). Ergative expressions are also common in processes like cooking ("I boil the water"-->"the water boils"), physical changes of state ("the prism refracts the light"-->the light refracts"), movement ("I shut the door"-->"The door shut") and, in recent times, motor vehicles ("I fly the plane"-->"The plane flies"). What both Marr and Halliday agree on is that very few languages tend to c)--that is, very few languages are willing to treat the environment as subject, and in particular as a subject that is capable of projecting (verbs of cognition, verbs of verbal communication). See: Halliday, M.A.K. (1990). New Ways of Meaning: The Challenge to Applied Linguistics. Journal of Applied Linguistics 6, 7-36. Also anthologized in the Ecolinguistics Reader, Fill and Mulhausler (Eds). London: Continuum, and in vol. 3 of Halliday's Collected Works, "On Language and Linguistics", London: Continuum. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 26 February 2015 at 15:05, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > David and Anna: > > A video of Joseph Beuys performing and explaining his famous work, to > which Anna was referring. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HVOCay10m8 < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HVOCay10m8> > > I liked it a lot. > > David: I have heard about transitivity vs. ergativity for a long time, but > don?t get it yet. Does Halliday discuss it in either of the books I have of > his: Explorations in the Functions of Lg or Learning How to Mean? I am > convinced I can?t call myself a linguist unless I get this distinction > right. > > I have been wondering if a transactional theory of reading is relevant to > the thread: > > http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-926/theory.htm < > http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-926/theory.htm> > > And I can?t help thinking about ?trannies?. I mean no disrespect here. Nor > do I see transsexuals simply as a recent stage in the sexual revolution. My > Navajo extended family is a goldmine of transgendering. I am convinced it > is as much artistic expression as it is the expression of ?sexual > orientation?. > > So this would be another golden thread for me. With some stretchability, > so expansiveness to it. > > Henry > > > > > > On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:27 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > BBC Radio Three just did a short performance of Beethoven's Fifth. > Whenever > > I hear it, I am reminded of E.M. Forster's "Howard's End", where > Margaret, > > Helen, and Tuppy go to hear it, and meet the working class tragic hero of > > the novel Leonard Bast (Helen steals his umbrella after the concert). > > Margaret hears pure structure. Helen hears an elaborate narrative > involving > > dancing elephants and evil goblins, and Tuppy only has ears for a > > particular moment when the drum links two themes. > > > > The great myth of epoch-changing works is that they always bomb on the > > first night. Now, in this relatively rare case, the myth is apparently > > quite true. A lot of the reasons are circumstantial; there was a Handel > > Oratorio competing for players and audience on opening night, but some of > > them are not. The critics complained, quite correctly, that the Fifth > > doesn't really have tunes, and where it does, the tunes don't unify in > any > > way. Helen's narrative--and Tuppy's anxiousness to hear the drum--reflect > > this peculiarity of the sympony. I myself have always felt the Fifth > > repetitious and over-insistent; I much prefer the Sixth. > > > > But Margaret is right. What the Fifth has, and what explains ALL of these > > reactions, is what Davydov would call a "germ cell". It's a rhythmic unit > > which appears in every movement and every tune and which makes it > possible > > to see the music as a Gestalt--a single structure. And of course > structure > > is a theme. I don't mean that a structure is a theme; I simply mean that > > the idea that anything can be seen in terms of the "germ cells" that make > > it up is a theme, and it's actually quite an important theme in CHAT. > > > > I think that SOME of the things we are discussing on this thread do > > constitute themes in this way--that is, they are not aspects of content > but > > ways of considering any content. Any content can be considered as > quantity, > > and any content can be considered as history. Also, any content can be > > considered as structure, which is why Margaret does not have to translate > > the music into a narrative and why she doesn't need to pay attention to > > particular concrete links to see the unity of the music as a whole. > > > > Of course it is POSSIBLE to see any artwork as performance art, but it's > a > > little like seeing any utterance as vocabulary: there are diminishing > > returns. If we consider paintings as performances, we get Jackson Pollock > > on film (a film which apparently led to a suicide-murder of three > people). > > Science as mere performance is simply Republican anti-science in > > fashionable Judith Butler jargon (Ken Hyland's work on academic writing > > comes to mind here, and not at all in a favorable light). Nevertheless, I > > think Annalisa's comment is useful: it points to a serious gap in CHAT > > terminology. > > > > As Andy points out, tool use and sign use are both considered, from a > > purely logical, synoptic point of view, forms of mediating activity. We > > have good terms for the use of signs (language, verbal thinking, > > communication). But when we refer to tool use, we say things like "labor" > > (which necessarily involves sign use) or simply "activity" (which is the > > hypernym of activity, and so like "meaning" creates confusion, because it > > is both part and whole).So we need a term for kinds of mediating activity > > which involve tools but which do not involve any sign use at all. I not > > only do not know what to call it, I can't even think of a good example. > (I > > tend to think of the distinction grammatically--as a distinction between > > transitivity, which involves a subject-object relation, and dialogue, > which > > is always subject-to-subject). > > > > I think that "sustainability", in the form of "metastability" is an > > important concept in systemic-functional linguistics. One way to think > > about it is rather structuralist: things remain what they are by changing > > all the time (in China I had a bicycle like this, where every part had > been > > replaced, some of them many times, and of course Otto Neurath raised the > > problem of whether a boat which had replaced every part was still the > same > > boat). If you think of entities as decomposible into elements, this is > not > > workable; if you think of them as "Gestalten" there is no problem at all. > > > > Another way to think about sustainability and metastability is as a form > of > > development: it is the second phase, after genesis and before decay and > > death. I think the reason why sustainability has become a major theme in > > the 21st century has to do with the fact that as a species we are now > > entering this phase; we have to establish metastable relationships with > our > > environment or face immediate decay and death. > > > > But a third way to think about metastability is as a form of meaning: a > > semiotic system like language is what it is not because "tout se tient" > at > > every point but because each part is being replaced at every moment. Note > > that this view of metastability doesn't exclude the structuralist > view--it > > simply sees it as an imaginary "snapshot" in a continuous movement. Nor > > does it exclude the theme of development: Halliday, in fact, describes > the > > change of English from a more transitive grammar of doings ("I hunt > > aurochs", "I gather berries", "I raise goats", "I make commodities") to a > > more ergative grammar of happenings ("The animals run", "The berries > grow", > > etc.). N.I. Marr, the big Soviet linguist iin Vygotsky's time, saw > ergative > > grammar as the past; Halliday sees it as our future. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > They just played structures, there is no problem; if you think of them > as > > matter, the > > > > I always think there are I think that in CHAT we think of > sustainability > > as a kind of development. > > > > On 25 February 2015 at 09:03, Peter wrote: > > > >> Hello, > >> > >> I was thinking about this recently when writing a grant proposal on > >> a"sustainability" project. Sustainability has replaced "green", "Eco" > and > >> other keywords as a catchall term for socially and environmentally > >> responsible engagement with the world. Its a concept that can be > integrated > >> into any traditional discipline, but not necessarily emanating from one > of > >> them in particular, I think it truly does represent a transdisciplinary > >> notion. Something like environmental studies is interdisciplinary in > nature > >> because it pulls from various disciplines and is integrated in a new > one. > >> Sustainability studies on the other hand can reside within disciplines > such > >> as history, geography, philosophy etc. > >> > >> Sustainability studies would also fit the definition you mention about a > >> discipline that seeks to eliminate itself. > >> > >> I suppose globalization studies, which seem to be growing in popularity, > >> would be another example of this type of transdisciplinary concept > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Peter > >> > >>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Annalisa Aguilar > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hello all, > >>> > >>> I would agree with you David Ki, but for Transdisciplinary, I'd say it > >> is a discipline that doesn't quite fit anywhere because it bisects many > >> different disciplines. > >>> > >>> For example, in the arts we have painting, sculpture, photography, > >> printmaking, video, film, then there is multimedia which borrows from > all > >> the others, such as with conceptual art, which is attempting to use the > >> other mediums for a particular purpose alongside the other mediums. I'd > say > >> this is analogous to cross-disciplinary. > >>> > >>> However performance art is all and neither of these mediums because > >> performance art transcends the others as it uses the human body along > with > >> the environment and it is time-based and usually temporary. Consider > Joseph > >> Beuys, for example, using a dead hare and himself. So this would be > >> analogous to transdisciplinary. > >>> > >>> I'd not call opera transdisciplinary, but multimedia, because it's more > >> about the music, most of all, one can enjoy the opera without the stage > or > >> knowing who the performers are. The opera is recast and repurposed but > it > >> is always interpretive of the original score. > >>> > >>> I'd suggest a discipline whose purpose is to eliminate itself would be > >> possibly transdisciplinary. Or disciplines that incorporate activism, to > >> take the knowledge out into the streets, possibly, perhaps peace > studies. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> > >>> Annalisa > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Feb 26 14:03:45 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 22:03:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <1424988225046.33152@unm.edu> Who is Anna? From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Fri Feb 27 08:07:51 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:07:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Francine ! This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . Think of this please : "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees separate?objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of effects. It develops?that if one and the same picture (let us say, the prisoner in jail) is ?shown to ?a?three-year-old, he will say, "a man, another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but?for a preschool child it would be: '~ man is ?sitting, another is ?looking out the?window and a mug is ?on the bench," We know that the opposite is ?true: both the?three-year-old and the very young child resolve all the separate objects according?to their functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, it is?[actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary word, then we find?that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; the child names a word that?signifies an [action], then a word that signifies an object."? "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction has?arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story with the picture and everything that we know about the development of thinking from life. In?both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is curious that all of these notions?can be confirmed by experiments and facts. We can take a thousand children and?show yet again that this is the case ?with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact,?but it must be interpreted differently." "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a definitive?answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me to be extremely?clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we will try to get responses?to the picture by some other means and not through words. If the proposition is?true that the child does not think of the world as separate things but can say only?separate words and cannot form their connections, then we will try to get along?without words. We will ask two ?children not to tell a story, but to perform what?the picture shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture sometimes?lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in ?the play, those relations?are captured that are in the picture. To put it more simply, if the child is ?asked to?dramatize the picture and not to tell its story, then, according to the experiments?of Stern, the four- or five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a?twelve-year-old tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail:?here the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they were?taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is added. Here?a very complex narration is ?added about how the nanny was fined for not having?a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical portrayal of what we see in the?story of the twelve-year-old." The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators themselves . However , I end this portion here . ?? From: larry smolucha To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development Message from Francine" Hi Larry, Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and preschoolers) as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, and realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking (i.e., become higher functions). But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what Chaiklin calls functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several disciplines of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical thinking, mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question arises: Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously direct their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have acquired higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's use of the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive awareness of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically follows a procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher psychological functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the terms can be used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate when discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald Meichenbaum), that uses the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk to help the client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that different higher psychological functions can function together as psychological systems. I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction means that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the individual - I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of? Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues (dialectics) and external conversations new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative learning is that it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more than the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as individuals they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. For, example if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at metaphorical thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be very good at grammar and/or spelling. > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Francine, > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of "reciprocal > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics.? Is > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can imagine > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended]? The term "reciprocal > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term.? Francine, your > statement: > >? "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > directing > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors? allows for > creativity. > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > as imagination > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > systems" > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > Larry > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > Larry, > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone of > > proximal > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. Vygotsky, > > however, > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > psychological functions > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions through > > the internalization > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > psychological (or mental) > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, such > > as scientific > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete and > > formal operational > > thinking. > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental model > > produces > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are preordained > > by a particular > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. By > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all becomes > > culturally relative. > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > > directing > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors? allows for > > creativity. > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > > as imagination > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > systems. > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > brain-imaging > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > "Neuropsychological > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > Creativity. > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that Larry > > and I expand > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources including > > Vygotsky's > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal? ? development > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of "functions". > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > development > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age period > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could not be > > > achieved independently.? These *functions* are not created in > > interaction, > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their existence > > and > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are "crystallized" > > or > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" structures. > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will subjectively > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods".? Within modern social > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the goal > > or > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > > particular historical social situations of development, not universally > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts function > > > within school situations of development. As? Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), even > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on these > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological functions > > are > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty."? [page 7] > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] which > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > > "maturing function", and "next age"? AS "the objective zone of proximal > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it does > > not > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the psychological > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of development > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts developed in > > > school situations.]? In order to approach the more abstract concepts > > [which > > > are going "higher"]? psychological functions need to develop first in > > order > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development [verbal > > > thought]. > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > > objective zone: > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > structural > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One can > > say > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > historically > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*.? For example school age > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > intellectual > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of the > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > > functions existing within particular social situations of development > > when > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > questioning? > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of "what > > > if".? What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its "new" > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > > > inquiry? > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > > clarity > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding the > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > Larry > > > > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Fri Feb 27 08:57:48 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <1899674103.2057547.1425056268952.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are not things which might escape your good attention .? Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted .? Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" .? In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda .? I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs .? Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written files therefrom , either .? The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward another big disaster !! and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a crowned one ! Cheers ? ? From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 09:57:56 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 10:57:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interdisciplinarity and Transdisciplinarity In-Reply-To: <1424988225046.33152@unm.edu> References: <54EC09BD.3050402@mira.net> <1424815830027.78961@unm.edu> <133C3523-F510-4F28-A0A3-1CD25E59F455@gmail.com> <, > <1424988225046.33152@unm.edu> Message-ID: Dear Annalisa, Let me apologize publicly for not getting your name right! I was feeling so pleased with the Joseph Beuys video, which I found because of you, and thinking so deeply (oh so deeply) about the issues that you and David had raised in the thread that I ride roughshod over your YOU. What?s in a name? A lot. Again, sorry about that. Henry > On Feb 26, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Who is Anna? > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 10:25:20 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 10:25:20 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] The world of freedom AND historical Ontology Message-ID: Haydi and Francine have continued the conversation on the understanding of functions and the origin in actions and activity. Haydi commented, Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . I want to introduce a book by Robert Nichols titled "The World of Freedom: Heidegger, Foucault and the Politics of Historical Ontology". [2014] I got this book from Kindle for around $10. I bought it because of his clear statement on shifting to "ethical questions" [to have ideals that PENETRATE cycles of activities]. Robert is making a case that freedom can be "thought" through notions of "ontology" and "situated freedom" This way of formulating "freedom" critiques notions of freedom as understood in terms of "a property OF the individual subject. Robert is making the case that freedom is a "mode of being-in-the-world". He states that as a mode this "kind" of reciprocal interrelationship [as Simmel understands reciprocal] AND "stylized mode" of being. This being-in-the-world seeks to "disclose" the mutual interrelatedness of 3 aspects of being. 1] the acquisition of knowledge 2] the appearance of a domain of entities about which knowledge claims can be made and most centrally 3] the "ethical transformation" of the "subject" [matter] of knowledge. [see Gadamer for a notion of subject matter as such] Robert's book is an attempt to disclose this 3 part reciprocal interrelatedness through a "working out" of the possibilities and potential "projected" [ideally] within the worldly activities "of" disclosure. THIS activity "makes" a horizon of intelligibility possible and thus [as subject matter] the "field" or "clearing" ON WHICH self-recognition and self-formation take "place" To "be free" is NOT to detach oneself from this [subject matter] this "field" or "clearing" THROUGH an act of cognitive reflection. Robert Nichols is making a claim that the reciprocal interrelation of freedom and historical ontology does not disclose the subject matter by an act of "cognitive reflection" but to "be free" is to be in a "mode" of relation TO the "field" or "clearing". This means to "cultivate" a certain *ethical attitude of awareness WITHIN the activities of disclosure that constitute the ontological ground of the field or clearing ITSELF" * In other words, this ethical "style" or "mode" IS to "take care" of the "field or clearing" and through the care of this field one takes care of the "self" Haydi mentioned action and activity as primary. Robert's approach to these questions of "situated freedom" as occurring as activity and action "of disclosure" within "fields or clearings". I will circle back to the centrality of the imaginal in imagining these fields and clearings as coming into formation that enact fundamental "ethical styles or stances or positions" This is a kind of "third space" which honours activity that is fundamentally ethical enactments existing by "being-in-the-world" Robert Nichols, by bringing Heidegger and Foucault into conversation, believes he can offer clarity the activity of disclosing the interrelation of freedom and historical ontology as "acts of care" of the "field or clearing" which nurtures or cultivates this "subject matter" as such. I chose this book as I try to get clarity on the multiple notions of "third spaces" that require ethical stances or styles or modes to bring into potential being the ideal forms that have the "power" to change the pre-reflective crystliized sedimented formations we are born into.This is a "genre" within the theme of "situated freedom" brought into awareness through the reciprocal interrelation of having Heidegger and Foucault in conversation with Robert Nichols [as an act of disclosure] Larry From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Fri Feb 27 12:09:38 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:09:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <776065615.2216007.1425067778921.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Francine, I quite agree that it's the development of the word meaning and its influence upon the organic , natural functions that causes them to be conscious and get running on the right appropriate most helpful track , that is , when they are , as Vygotsky says , crowned . What causes me to go further is that this is not the end of a process which life requires . When functions become conscious , rich with benevolence of speech , there appears the domain of acts ; acts which formerly were carried out blindly because of the natural organic instincts but now are being carried out correspondingly as conscious , willful , volitional ones for which reason could be erected to transform . Words and broader conceptions , as in their nature , are defective to transform the world ; they could transform the mind and the psyche . Dialectics and interactions between the two are due , too . ? Regards ? ? From: larry smolucha To: Haydi Zulfei Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:19:33 Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development #yiv2080325588 #yiv2080325588 --.yiv2080325588hmmessage P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv2080325588 body.yiv2080325588hmmessage{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}#yiv2080325588 Message from Francine: Haydi, Are you saying that the central concept in Vygotsky's theory is the development of word meaning, and not the development of higher psychological functions? My understanding of Vygotsky's writings does not exclude the importance of the development of word meaning. Does you perspective disregard the development of consciously directed higher psychological functions? > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:07:51 +0000 > From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Hi Francine ! > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > Think of this please : > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees separate?objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of effects. It develops?that if one and the same picture (let us say, the prisoner in jail) is ?shown to ?a?three-year-old, he will say, "a man, another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but?for a preschool child it would be: '~ man is ?sitting, another is ?looking out the?window and a mug is ?on the bench," We know that the opposite is ?true: both the?three-year-old and the very young child resolve all the separate objects according?to their functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, it is?[actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary word, then we find?that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; the child names a word that?signifies an [action], then a word that signifies an object."? > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction has?arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story with the picture and everything that we know about the development of thinking from life. In?both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is curious that all of these notions?can be confirmed by experiments and facts. We can take a thousand children and?show yet again that this is the case ?with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact,?but it must be interpreted differently." > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a definitive?answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me to be extremely?clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we will try to get responses?to the picture by some other means and not through words. If the proposition is?true that the child does not think of the world as separate things but can say only?separate words and cannot form their connections, then we will try to get along?without words. We will ask two ?children not to tell a story, but to perform what?the picture shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture sometimes?lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in ?the play, those relations?are captured that are in the picture. To put it more simply, if the child is ?asked to?dramatize the picture and not to tell its story, then, according to the experiments?of Stern, the four- or five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a?twelve-year-old tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail:?here the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they were?taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is added. Here?a very complex narration is ?added about how the nanny was fined for not having?a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical portrayal of what we see in the?story of the twelve-year-old." > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators themselves . However , I end this portion here . ?? > From: larry smolucha > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Message from Francine" > > Hi Larry, > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and preschoolers) > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, and > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the verbal guidance > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking (i.e., become > higher functions). > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what Chaiklin calls > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several disciplines > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical thinking, > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question arises: > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously direct > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have acquired > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's use of > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive awareness > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically follows a > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher psychological > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the terms can be > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate when > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald Meichenbaum), that uses > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk to help the > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that different > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological systems. > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction means > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the individual - > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of? Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues (dialectics) and external conversations > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative learning is that > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more than > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as individuals > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. For, example > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at metaphorical > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > > > Francine, > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of "reciprocal > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics.? Is > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can imagine > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended]? The term "reciprocal > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term.? Francine, your > > statement: > > > >? "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > > directing > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors? allows for > > creativity. > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > > as imagination > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > systems" > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha > > wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone of > > > proximal > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. Vygotsky, > > > however, > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > psychological functions > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions through > > > the internalization > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > psychological (or mental) > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, such > > > as scientific > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete and > > > formal operational > > > thinking. > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental model > > > produces > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are preordained > > > by a particular > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. By > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all becomes > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of consciously > > > directing > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors? allows for > > > creativity. > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions (such > > > as imagination > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > systems. > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > brain-imaging > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > "Neuropsychological > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > Creativity. > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that Larry > > > and I expand > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources including > > > Vygotsky's > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > proximal? ? development > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of "functions". > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > development > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age period > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could not be > > > > achieved independently.? These *functions* are not created in > > > interaction, > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their existence > > > and > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are "crystallized" > > > or > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" structures. > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will subjectively > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods".? Within modern social > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the goal > > > or > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not universally > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts function > > > > within school situations of development. As? Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), even > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on these > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological functions > > > are > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty."? [page 7] > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] which > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > > > "maturing function", and "next age"? AS "the objective zone of proximal > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it does > > > not > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the psychological > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of development > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts developed in > > > > school situations.]? In order to approach the more abstract concepts > > > [which > > > > are going "higher"]? psychological functions need to develop first in > > > order > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development [verbal > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > structural > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One can > > > say > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > historically > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*.? For example school age > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > intellectual > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of the > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of development > > > when > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > questioning? > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of "what > > > > if".? What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its "new" > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > > > clarity > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding the > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Feb 27 12:35:14 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:35:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Polls are Open Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a week or so when people have had a chance to check out the abstracts and to make a choice. Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as often as you can. :-) mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Fri Feb 27 12:40:04 2015 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:40:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?NJ_Parents_and_Teachers_Say_=C2=B3NO!=C2=B2_to_PARCC_C?= =?utf-8?q?ommon_Core_Tests_=C2=AD?= Message-ID: NJ Parents and Teachers Say ?NO!? to PARCC Common Core Tests ? Alan Singer?s Latest Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-singer/nj-parents-and-teachers-s_b_6768926.html New Jersey parents and teachers are up in arms in a campaign against new statePearson designed PARCC exams supposedly aligned with the national Common Core standards. NJ Kids and Families, a coalition that includes NJEA, the New Jersey Education Association, is sponsoring a television advertising campaign and an onlinepetition to stop the Pearson PARCC exams. Testing begins this spring, unless parents and teachers can stop them. But the anti-PARCC anti-Common Core coalition may have an unlikely ally. Who thought pro-business Republicans would take on the school testing industry? Now that he is running for governor of Iowa (or maybe just for Iowan votes for the Republican presidential nomination), New Jersey's own Chris Christie, the governor who brags he "tells it like it is" and "speaks from the heart" has made a calculated flip-flop and turned against Common Core and PARCC. Who would have thought? We either have a Common Core Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde or even more scary, maybe there are really two Chris Christies. At a KIPP Public Charter Schools conference in 2013, pro-Common Core Dr. Jekyll Chris Christie argued America needs Common Core. "We are doing Common Core in New Jersey and we're going to continue. And this is one of those areas where I have agreed more with the President than not." But in Iowa while trying to raise support for his sagging presidential campaign, anti-Common Core Mr. Hyde Chris Christie told an audience about his "grave concerns" about Common Core. According to this Chris Christie, "we're in the midst of re-examination of it in New Jersey . . . It is something I'm very concerned about, because in the end education needs to be a local issue." Up until now, New Jersey has been an important ally of the Pearson PARCC Common Core exams. According to the PARCC website, New Jersey signed up with the Partnership for Assessment of Readiness for College and Careers in spring 2010, became a "Governing State" in 2011, and participated in shaping PARCC's "next-generation assessment system." In addition, State Education Commissioner David Hespe serves on the PARCC Governing Board, the Director of Student Learning Assessments at the New Jersey Department of Education is on the PARCC K-12 team, and the Secretary of Higher Education for the State of New Jersey serves on the PARCC Advisory Committee on College Readiness. The New Jersey Assembly responded a bit to the parent-teacher campaign by approving a bill that would prevent the results of PARCC test from being used to measure student achievement for three years and from influencing student placement in a gifted and talented program. The bill must still be passed by the State Senate and signed by Governor Christie. At its best, this is a partial response because the tests themselves are still scheduled to take place as planned. One of the things parents and teachers are outraged about is the poor design of the tests which seem intentionally organized to cause frustration and failure. A well-designed test eases students into the exam and has a range of questions on different academic performance levels. This helps to keep students relaxed so they perform their best and gives teachers and parents information about what a student is actually having difficulty with. But a sample math test shown to parents and teachers at a PARCC event at Montclair State University started with third graders being asked to answer difficult two-part questions and multiple-choice questions where the 3rd graders had identify multiple correct answers. Russ Walsh of Rider University analyzed sample PARCC English Language Arts items and concluded that the samples were as much as two grade levels above the grades for which they were selected. While parents technically have the right to have their children opt-out of the tests, there will be penalties. But the New Jersey Department of Education is warning that schools and districts that fall below 95 percent of their students taking the PARCC tests risk losing state funds. According to Daniel Katz, director of secondary and secondary-special education at Seton Hall University, "If experiences of other states that have already implemented PARCC- and CCSS-aligned exams are illustrative, New Jersey's teachers, students and parents can expect steep declines in the percentage of students scoring in the higher levels of achievement. Neighboring New York, for example, has its own Pearson-designed CCSS-aligned exam, and the percentage of students scoring proficient or highly proficient was cut essentially in half to roughly 35 percent for both math and English." Katz argues that a "decrease in scores will not indicate anything specifically wrong with education in New Jersey. The National Assessment of Education Progress has been a consistent measure of education in the country without high stakes attached to it. New Jersey has been a high-performing state in NAEP for years." PARCC claims its "assessment measures real world skills that colleges value" and that New Jersey's public two- and four-year colleges and universities "helped develop the assessments to ensure that it measures college readiness." New Jersey parents and teachers beg to differ. They are lobby the New Jersey legislature state education governing board to say "NO!" to PARCC Common Core Tests. Below is a sample middle school level reading passage from the online New Jersey PARCC preparation booklet. On the whole, I do not find the difficulty of the text unreasonable. The problem is its length. The passage has eleven paragraphs and over 1,500 words. Skill level can be ascertained with a much shorter selection. For many 12-years old, this is really testing their endurance ability to sustain attention in a reading passage with a topic that does not interest them. To test yourself, try reading a longish article in the newspaper that you find boring. My other problem is with the standard Pearson "best choice" question. The test designers act as if their "best choice" is a fact, but "best choice" is an opinion. The reading passage is originally from the official Amelia Earhart website. Pearson PARCC notes the name Amelia Earhart is trademarked, but there is no article citation. Is Pearson PARCC encouraging plagiarism? The sample reading passage and questions also appear in the Louisiana PARCC test guide for 7th graders. Is Pearson PARCC double-dipping by charging both New Jersey and Louisiana for the same material? Read the website entry "The Biography of Amelia Earhart." Then answer the questions. The Biography of Amelia Earhart (1) When 10-year-old Amelia Mary Earhart saw her first plane at a state fair, she was not impressed. "It was a thing of rusty wire and wood and looked not at all interesting,' she said. It wasn't until Earhart attended a stunt-flying exhibition, almost a decade later, that she became seriously interested in aviation. A pilot spotted Earhart and her friend, who were watching from an isolated clearing, and dove at them. "I am sure he said to himself, 'Watch me make them scamper,'" she said. Earhart, who felt a mixture of fear and pleasure, stood her ground. As the plane swooped by, something inside her awakened. "I did not understand it at the time," she said, "but I believe that little red airplane said something to me as it swished by." On December 28, 1920 pilot Frank Hawks gave her a ride that would forever change her life." By the time I had got two or three hundred feet off the ground," she said, "I knew I had to fly." (2) Although Earhart's convictions were strong, challenging prejudicial and financial obstacles awaited her. But the former tomboy was no stranger to disapproval or doubt. Defying conventional feminine behavior, the young Earhart climbed trees, "belly-slammed" her sled to start it downhill and hunted rats with a .22 rifle. She also kept a scrapbook of newspaper clippings about successful women in predominantly male-oriented fields, including film direction and productions, law, advertising, management, and mechanical engineering. (3) After graduating from Hyde Park High School in 1915, Earhart attended Ogontz, a girl's finishing school in the suburbs of Philadelphia. She left in the middle of her second year to work as a nurse's aide in a military hospital in Canada during WWI, attended college, and later became a social worker at Denison House, a settlement house in Boston. Earhart took her first flying lesson on January 3, 1921, and in six months managed to save enough money to buy her first plane. The second-hand Kinner Airster was a two-seater biplane painted bright yellow. Earhart named the plane "Canary,' and used it to set her first women's record by rising to an altitude of 14,000 feet. (4) One afternoon in April 1928, a phone call came for Earhart at work. "I'm too busy to answer just now," she said. After hearing that it was important, Earhart relented though at first she thought it was a prank. It wasn't until the caller supplied excellent references that she realized the man was serious. "How would you like to be the first woman to fly the Atlantic?" he asked, to which Earhart promptly replied, "Yes!" After an interview in New York with the project coordinators, including book publisher and publicist George P. Putnam, she was asked to join pilot Wilmer "Bill" Stultz and co-pilot/mechanic Louis E. "Slim" Gordon. The team left Trepassey harbor, Newfoundland, in a Fokker F7 named Friendship on June 17, 1928, and arrived at Burry Port, Wales, approximately 21 hours later. Their landmark flight made headlines worldwide, because three women had died within the year trying to be that first woman. When the crew returned to the United States they were greeted with a ticker-tape parade in New York and a reception held by President Calvin Coolidge at the White House. (5) From then on, Earhart's life revolved around flying. She placed third at the Cleveland Women's Air Derby, later nicknamed the "Powder Puff Derby" by Will Rogers. As fate would have it, her life also began to include George Putnam. The two developed a friendship during preparation for the Atlantic crossing and were married February 7, 1931. Intent on retaining her independence, she referred to the marriage as a "partnership" with "dual control." (6) Together they worked on secret plans for Earhart to become the first woman and the second person to solo the Atlantic. On May 20, 1932, five years to the day after Lindbergh, she took off from Harbor Grace, Newfoundland, to Paris. Strong north winds, icy conditions and mechanical problems plagued the flight and forced her to land in a pasture near Londonderry, Ireland. "After scaring most of the cows in the neighborhood," she said, "I pulled up in a farmer's back yard." As word of her flight spread, the media surrounded her, both overseas and in the United States. President Herbert Hoover presented Earhart with a gold medal from the National Geographic Society. Congress awarded her the Distinguished Flying Cross- the first ever given to a woman. At the ceremony, Vice President Charles Curtis praised her courage, saying she displayed "heroic courage and skill as a navigator at the risk of her life." Earhart felt the flight proved that men and women were equal in "jobs requiring intelligence, coordination, speed, coolness and willpower." (7) In the years that followed, Earhart continued to break records. She set an altitude record for autogyros of 18,415 feet that stood for years. On January 11, 1935, she became the first person to fly solo across the Pacific from Honolulu to Oakland, California. Chilled during the 2,408-mile flight, she unpacked a thermos of hot chocolate. "Indeed," she said, "that was the most interesting cup of chocolate I have ever had, sitting up eight thousand feet over the middle of the Pacific Ocean, quite alone." Later that year she was the first to solo from Mexico City to Newark. A large crowd "overflowed the field," and rushed Earhart's plane. "I was rescued from my plane by husky policemen," she said, "one of whom in the ensuing melee took possession of my right arm and another of my left leg." The officers headed for a police car, but chose different routes. "The arm-holder started to go one way, while he who clasped my leg set out in the opposite direction. The result provided the victim with a fleeting taste of the tortures of the rack. But, at that," she said good-naturedly, "It was fine to be home again." (8) In 1937, as Earhart neared her 40th birthday, she was ready for a monumental, and final, challenge. She wanted to be the first woman to fly around the world. Despite a botched attempt in March that severely damaged her plan, a determined Earhart had the twin engine Lockheed Electra rebuilt. "I have a feeling that there is just about one more good flight left in my system, and I hope this trip is it," she said. On June 1st, Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan departed from Miami and began the 29,000-mile journey. By June 29, when they landed in Lae, New Guinea, all but 7,000 miles had been completed. Frequently inaccurate maps had made navigation difficult for Noonan, and their next hop- to Howland Island- was by far the most challenging. Located 2,556 miles from Lae in the mid-Pacific, Howland Island is a mile and a half long and a half mile wide. Every unessential item was removed from the plane to make room for additional fuel, which gave Earhart approximately 274 extra miles. The U.S. Coast Guard cutter Itasca, their radio contact, was stationed just offshore of Howland Island. Two other U.S. ships, ordered to burn every light on board, were positioned along the flight route as markers. "Howland is such a small spot in the Pacific that every aid to locating it must be available," Earhart said. (9) At 10 am local time, zero Greenwich time on July 2, the pair took off. Despite favorable weather reports, they flew into overcast skies and intermittent rain showers. This made Noonan's premier method of tracking, celestial navigation difficult. As dawn neared, Earhart called the ITASCA, reporting "cloudy, weather cloudy." In later transmissions Earhart asked the ITASCA to take bearings on her. The ITASCA sent her a steady stream on transmissions but she could not hear them. Her radio transmissions, irregular through most of the flight, were faint or interrupted with static. At 7:42 A.M. the Itasca picked up the message, "We must be on you, but we cannot see you. Fuel is running low. Been unable to reach you by radio. We are flying at 1,000 feet." The ship tried to reply, but the plane seemed not to hear. At 8:45 Earhart reported, "We are running north and south." Nothing further was heard from Earhart. (10) A rescue attempt commenced immediately and became the most extensive air and sea search in naval history thus far. On July 19, after spending $4 million and scouring 250,000 square miles of ocean, the United States government reluctantly called off the operation. In 1938, a lighthouse was constructed on Howland Island in her memory. Across the United States there are streets, schools, and airports named after her. Her birthplace, Atchison, Kansas, has been turned into a virtual shrine to her memory. Amelia Earhart awards and scholarships are given out every year. (11) Today, though many theories exist, there is no proof of her fate. There is no doubt, however, that the word will always remember Amelia Earhart for her courage, vision, and groundbreaking achievement, both in aviation and for women. In a letter to her husband, written in case a dangerous flight proved to be her last, this brave spirit was evident. "Please know I am quite aware of the hazards," she said. "I want to do it because I want to do it. Women must try to do things as men have tried. When they fail, their failure must be but a challenge to others." Questions In paragraph 6 of "The Biography of Amelia Earhart," Earhart is quoted as saying, After scaring most of the cows in the neighborhood...I pulled up in a farmer's back yard. How does the quotation contribute to the meaning of the paragraph? A. It demonstrates Earhart's calm sense of humor when describing a potentially frightening situation. B. It shows that Earhart loved taking risks but regretted when her action is put others in danger. C. It suggests that Earhart was humble about her accomplishments and able to admit mistakes. D. It illustrates Earhart's awareness of her responsibility as a role model for other women In which other paragraph in the article does a quotation from Earhart contribute to the reader's understanding of her character in a similar way as does the quotation in Part A? A. paragraph 7 B. paragraph 8 C. paragraph 9 D. paragraph 11 According to the "Biography of Amelia Earhart," which events had the most significant impact on Earhart's life? From the List of Events, create a summary by dragging the four most significant events and dropping them in the boxes in chronological order. List of Events Earhart becomes the first woman to fly across the Atlantic Ocean by herself. Earhart attends a finishing school in Philadelphia. Earhart purchases her first plane Earhart works as a nurse's aide in Canada. Earhart attends an air show, where a stunt pilot flies close to her. Earhart sets off on a flight around the world. Earhart places third at the Cleveland Women's Air Derby. Which sentence explains how paragraph 4 is important to the development of the ideas in "The Biography of Amelia Earhart"? A. Paragraph 4 provides details that explain why Earhart chose flying as a career. B. Paragraph 4 relates Earhart's love of hard work to her success in flying. C. Paragraph 4 illustrates how Earhart's enjoyment of flying changed her personal life. D. Paragraph 4 retells a key event that enabled Earhart to become a celebrity pilot. What quotation from paragraph 4 best supports the answer in Part A? A. "I'm too busy to answer just now, she said" B. "It wasn't until the caller supplied excellent references that she realized the man was serious." C. "How would you like to be the first woman to fly the Atlantic? he asked, to which Earhart promptly replied, "Yes !" D. "... she was asked to join pilot Wilmer 'Bill' Stultz and co-pilot mechanic Louis E. 'Slim' Gordon." You have read a website entry and an article, and watched a video describing Amelia Earhart. All three include information that supports the claim that Earhart was a brave, courageous person. The three titles are: "The Biography of Amelia Earhart" "Earhart's Final Resting Place Believed Found" "Amelia Earhart's Life and Disappearance" (video) Consider the argument each author uses to demonstrate Earhart's bravery. Write an essay that analyzes the strength of the arguments related to Amelia Earhart's bravery in at least two of the three supporting materials. Remember to use textual evidence to support your ideas.? Alan Singer, Director, Secondary Education Social Studies Teacher Education Programs 128 Hagedorn Hall / 119 Hofstra University / Hempstead, NY 11549 (P) 516-463-5853 (F) 516-463-6196 Blogs, essays, interviews, and e-blasts present my views and not those of Hofstra University. From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Feb 27 14:35:29 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:35:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry---- a delayed thank you for the comments on Simmel. A very accessible and thoughtful account of his work, *Cultivating Minds: Identity as meaning making practice,* might interest XMCAers because of its emphasis the centrality of culture in human nature formulated in a way that is comfortable ground for developmentally oriented scholars. The chapter on "Behavior settings as media for children's development" is particularly close to the interests of those xmca-ers for whom intervention/design research is important. mike On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of Simmel's > approach to being human, > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > and a hopeful thinker. > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > century. > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a tradition > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, and > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its further > expansion. > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the dialectic. > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > interaction. > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" and > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social existence. > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great dualism > [between subject and object within modernity] > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's abstract > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > of Simmel's work: > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > application of these general polarities. > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most general > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a well > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > thought. > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships introduces a > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, but > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his viewpoint > goes beyond these comparisons. > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a fixed > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties of > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > unstructured wall. > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as "natural" > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide all > our activity. > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his cue > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a flaneur. > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the "movement" > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > and offered no final word. > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > 1] reciprocal effect > 2] form and content > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model of > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to fit > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within his > approach. > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] FOR > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off from > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the "as > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > But that also is for another post. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Feb 27 14:35:29 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:35:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry---- a delayed thank you for the comments on Simmel. A very accessible and thoughtful account of his work, *Cultivating Minds: Identity as meaning making practice,* might interest XMCAers because of its emphasis the centrality of culture in human nature formulated in a way that is comfortable ground for developmentally oriented scholars. The chapter on "Behavior settings as media for children's development" is particularly close to the interests of those xmca-ers for whom intervention/design research is important. mike On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of Simmel's > approach to being human, > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > and a hopeful thinker. > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > century. > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a tradition > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, and > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its further > expansion. > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the dialectic. > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > interaction. > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" and > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social existence. > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great dualism > [between subject and object within modernity] > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's abstract > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > of Simmel's work: > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > application of these general polarities. > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most general > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a well > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > thought. > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships introduces a > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, but > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his viewpoint > goes beyond these comparisons. > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a fixed > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties of > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > unstructured wall. > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as "natural" > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide all > our activity. > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his cue > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a flaneur. > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the "movement" > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > and offered no final word. > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > 1] reciprocal effect > 2] form and content > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model of > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to fit > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within his > approach. > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] FOR > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off from > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the "as > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > But that also is for another post. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Feb 27 15:04:52 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:04:52 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1899674103.2057547.1425056268952.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1899674103.2057547.1425056268952.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do not understand the central message of this note, Haydi. mike On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > > I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through > his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" > : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are > not things which might escape your good attention . > > Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted . > > Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in > general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did > not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . > > In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an > environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools > even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence > of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies > that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of > speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then > the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for > transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear > advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . > > I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with > rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was > finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had > to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them > penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because > the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . > > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and > wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive > arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they > won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written > files therefrom , either . > > The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward > another big disaster !! > and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a > crowned one ! > Cheers > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 16:51:56 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:51:56 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Activity as Hyponym Message-ID: Some of the confusion is mine, I'm afraid. It began with a very confusing note I wrote yesterday. I was trying to explain a terminological problem in CHAT. In Vygotsky and Volosinov, "meaning" is a superordinate term (a hypernym) but it also a subordinate type of meaning (a hyponym): MEANING (znachenie) meaning (znachenie) sense (smysl) It seemed to me that the same thing has happened with activity: MEDIATING ACTIVITY tool use (orudnie) sign use (znak) The problem is that we use "activity" for both tool use and sign use, or, worse, we use "tools/signs" as a superordinate term (a hypernym) and as a subordinate term (a hyponym). Now you can see that these are two different mistakes. Conflating tools and signs is one mistake, and using "activity" for both mediating activity and for tool-bearing activity is a different mistake. But I confused them. Haydi sometimes communicates with me off list (and in fact it's entirely possible that this message was mostly intended for me) and I understand what he says very well, because it is part of a longstanding discussion we have been having about what Vygotsky means when he says "In the beginning was the act". To me, this means that the act is really only the beginning, and we need to move on in our theorization. But to Haydi it really means that the act is the basis of everything (and in particular the basis of social activism, where counts is deeds and not words). So here's how I read Haydi. But Haydi should correct me if I have him wrong. HAYDI SAYS: I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through > his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" > : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are > not things which might escape your good attention . I READ: The reason why Vygotsky reiterates words like action, behavior, activity, work and labor is that this is the basis of everything, including language. HAYDI SAYS: Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted . I READ: To try to dissolve the action component of sign use is to deny the important role of action and to deny what is always there implicit in Vygotsky's treatment of sign use: communicative action is not simply communication (as it is in Habermas). More importantly, communicative action is a form of action (as it is in Marx). HAYDI SAYS: Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in > general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did > not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . > I READ: It is true that Vygotsky is fascinated by the word, most viisible in Psychology of Art and other texts on the arts (e.g. the essay on the dramatic art of the actor). But in all of these action is taken for granted (see especially the dramatic art of the actor). HAYDI SAYS: In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an > environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools > even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence > of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies > that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of > speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then > the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for > transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear > advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . > I READ: The main message of HDHPF is that the higher psychological functions are only RELATIVELY higher; they are still very much linked to lower functions, and the link is of a genetic nature. But that doesn't simply mean that the higher functions arise out of the lower functions; it also means that they can transform the lower functions in their own image. That is what happens: it's not the case that action just takes up where words fail us, any more than it is the case that man's physical evolution stopped when his cultural evolution began. HAYDI SAYS I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with > rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was > finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had > to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them > penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because > the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . > I READ: Nor is it the case that physical evolution is there as a kind of "Plan B" when our cultural Plan A fails us. On the contrary: what language does is to allow potential action to become real. But even the richest, ripest talk does not satisfy life's needs; it must be completed by action. HAYDI SAYS: > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and > wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive > arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they > won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written > files therefrom , either . I READ: Capitalists are aware of this: they would like very much to relegate the forces of progress to pure talk. HAYDI SAYS: The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward > another big disaster !! > and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a > crowned one ! I READ: Oppressed people everywhere must understand that although phylogenetically the deed is crowned with the word, sociohistorically, things are the other way around: the words that have only been able to provide a sketch of "the good life" in art must be crowned with the deed. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Feb 27 16:53:42 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:53:42 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fascinating, Henry. thanks. Its difficult for us to remember that reading, even after the printing press,was not an individual, isolatable, activity. Interesting that we use reading aloud as a gateway activity for reading silently "for oneself" almost as if the ontogeny is recapitulating history. mike On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:38 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > People, > I found this in the NY Times this morning: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > < > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > > > > Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of > Alice in Wonderland. > > Henry > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ablunden@mira.net Fri Feb 27 18:11:05 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:11:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F123B9.2060709@mira.net> In the late 1830s-1840s, only 1/6 of the adult male population of Britain - those who owned property - had the vote, and the mass of the working people of the country organised themselves into a movement known as the Chartists. Everything was illegal. It was illegal to have meetings of more than 49 people, illegal to elect representatives or to correspond with other groups, and in particular, newspapers were subject to a "stamp duty" which would make any paper too expensive for an ordinary working joe to buy. There were dozens of illegal, unstamped papers in circulation, and the prisons filled with people convicted of writing for or selling them. What succeeded despite all this in uniting the Chartists into a powerful national movement was the paper "The Northern Star," which registered itself and paid the stamp duty which meant that individual workers could not afford to buy it, so.... they clubbed together and one would read while others worked, or inn-keepers bought a copy and workers came to their inn to read it together, or people would come to someone's house on a Sunday and read together and in a dozen different ways, by poor people reading together to overcome the high cost of the paper, the Northern Star became the chief organising instrument of the movement. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Fascinating, Henry. thanks. Its difficult for us to remember that reading, > even after the printing press,was not an individual, isolatable, activity. > Interesting that we use reading aloud as a gateway activity for reading > silently "for oneself" almost as if the ontogeny is recapitulating history. > mike > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:38 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > >> People, >> I found this in the NY Times this morning: >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >> < >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >> >> Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of >> Alice in Wonderland. >> >> Henry >> >> >> > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 19:40:30 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:40:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <446AB650-F5DE-4ACF-B934-D2F0997D6C2E@gmail.com> Mike, It took me more than a minute to see what you mean. Nice! In listening to the podcast on how Alice in Wonderland came to be, I was reminded that Carroll (aka Dodgson) first told the story to a young girl, then wrote it up for her! Your metaphor reinforces my sense of the fractal nature of life and how it seems to us. Turtles all the way down. Deep. Henry > On Feb 27, 2015, at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Fascinating, Henry. thanks. Its difficult for us to remember that reading, > even after the printing press,was not an individual, isolatable, activity. > Interesting that we use reading aloud as a gateway activity for reading > silently "for oneself" almost as if the ontogeny is recapitulating history. > mike > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:38 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> People, >> I found this in the NY Times this morning: >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >> < >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >>> >> >> Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of >> Alice in Wonderland. >> >> Henry >> >> > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 19:42:33 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:42:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: <54F123B9.2060709@mira.net> References: <54F123B9.2060709@mira.net> Message-ID: <97802E2F-2AEB-4327-B443-7D0B720B00E1@gmail.com> Whamo! That?s literacy as a collaborative project! > On Feb 27, 2015, at 7:11 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > In the late 1830s-1840s, only 1/6 of the adult male population of Britain - those who owned property - had the vote, and the mass of the working people of the country organised themselves into a movement known as the Chartists. Everything was illegal. It was illegal to have meetings of more than 49 people, illegal to elect representatives or to correspond with other groups, and in particular, newspapers were subject to a "stamp duty" which would make any paper too expensive for an ordinary working joe to buy. There were dozens of illegal, unstamped papers in circulation, and the prisons filled with people convicted of writing for or selling them. > What succeeded despite all this in uniting the Chartists into a powerful national movement was the paper "The Northern Star," which registered itself and paid the stamp duty which meant that individual workers could not afford to buy it, so.... they clubbed together and one would read while others worked, or inn-keepers bought a copy and workers came to their inn to read it together, or people would come to someone's house on a Sunday and read together and in a dozen different ways, by poor people reading together to overcome the high cost of the paper, the Northern Star became the chief organising instrument of the movement. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> Fascinating, Henry. thanks. Its difficult for us to remember that reading, >> even after the printing press,was not an individual, isolatable, activity. >> Interesting that we use reading aloud as a gateway activity for reading >> silently "for oneself" almost as if the ontogeny is recapitulating history. >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:38 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >> >>> People, >>> I found this in the NY Times this morning: >>> >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >>> < >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# >>> Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of >>> Alice in Wonderland. >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Fri Feb 27 19:52:25 2015 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 03:52:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1045916698.56805.1425095545942.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi-- OK I will drop a thought into the mix to see what happens, in the hope that a few sparks here might ignite volatile minds elsewhere. For while I'm as much a partisan of paperbacks as anyone, I don't think the paperback novel is the dominant instrument today of social dialectic. Vygotsky in The Psychology of Art focuses on the shared worlds of experience created through literature, and shared among readers; he defines fables and poetry and literature as the core means of mediating experience. But isn't it really the shared aspect of an object to think with that is important? It is the fact of a shared external object that enables the coordination of experience, the shaping of beliefs and perceptions, and ultimately the creation of behavior. It is the interaction around shared objects that make them the instruments of oppression and consensus, and the revolutionary things that they are.? Is the word the only means of shared experience? The object as a symbolic representation of the real world, subject to manipulation, to retelling, to reinterpreting, and especially to reusing, is as common to cinematic and artistic media as it is to word-based media. These may even be more powerful mediums of coordination initially (though less subject to capture through reuse), in that they appeal to the imagistic core of memory and behavioral regulation that we share with all mammals. The appeal of images and narrative, whether through illustrations mixed among the words in Alison in Wonderland, or through the cinematic popular media narratives of our era, are a link between the ritual world whose bones we see in the Lascaux cave paintings, and the games that politicians play today, with their multimedia narratives of identity-formation and symbolic evocation. These things often make little sense on the page, in part because they capture, like the Lascaux paintings, only part of the performance. The past is never dead, as Faulkner so accurately observed. It's not even past. It's showing on Sunday night on AMC, or in the theater around the corner. And what is one to make of music? The first audience of George Anthiel's "Ballet M?canique" in minutes divided into two violently antagonistic parties, even as the music played, and rioted in the street outside the theater when it ended. Surely they shared something as an object of conflict, beyond words (but capable of being captured in them) that was uniquely human, cultural, and for them, worth fighting for (or against). Anyway, there it is, and I'll go away now. Cheers,Doug From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 4:53 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text Fascinating, Henry. thanks. Its difficult for us to remember that reading, even after the printing press,was not an individual, isolatable, activity. Interesting that we use reading aloud as a gateway activity for? reading silently "for oneself" almost as if the ontogeny is recapitulating history. mike On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 8:38 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > People, > I found this in the NY Times this morning: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > < > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/arts/design/a-grolier-club-tribute-to-the-printer-aldus-manutius.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=photo-spot-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0# > > > > Also, this week we celebrate the 150th anniversary of the publication of > Alice in Wonderland. > > Henry > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 20:02:57 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:02:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity as Hyponym In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22864486-9506-4E71-BBF9-89A3A12C4824@gmail.com> David, I would call the posts of you and Haydi performance art, as you and Annalisa have been discussing it. Is that weird? There is certainly art to it. You?re on stage. I assume it is happening all the time in the chat, and I usually miss it. But this interchange hit me in a sweet spot. The unshackled Haydi followed by David?s readings was great reading! Why is that so? It?s like reading an article in the Atlantic and being able to read the letters to the editor right away! Seriously here. Synchronicity informed diachronically, since both Haydi and David are Vygotskian translators and interpreters. For those of us who haven?t learned to swim in Russian. Henry > On Feb 27, 2015, at 5:51 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Some of the confusion is mine, I'm afraid. It began with a very confusing > note I wrote yesterday. I was trying to explain a terminological problem in > CHAT. In Vygotsky and Volosinov, "meaning" is a superordinate term (a > hypernym) but it also a subordinate type of meaning (a hyponym): > > MEANING (znachenie) > > meaning (znachenie) sense (smysl) > > It seemed to me that the same thing has happened with activity: > > > MEDIATING ACTIVITY > > tool use (orudnie) sign use (znak) > > > The problem is that we use "activity" for both tool use and sign use, or, > worse, we use "tools/signs" as a superordinate term (a hypernym) and as a > subordinate term (a hyponym). > > Now you can see that these are two different mistakes. Conflating tools and > signs is one mistake, and using "activity" for both mediating activity and > for tool-bearing activity is a different mistake. But I confused them. > > Haydi sometimes communicates with me off list (and in fact it's entirely > possible that this message was mostly intended for me) and I understand > what he says very well, because it is part of a longstanding discussion we > have been having about what Vygotsky means when he says "In the beginning > was the act". To me, this means that the act is really only the beginning, > and we need to move on in our theorization. But to Haydi it really means > that the act is the basis of everything (and in particular the basis of > social activism, where counts is deeds and not words). > > So here's how I read Haydi. But Haydi should correct me if I have him wrong. > > HAYDI SAYS: > > I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through >> his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" >> : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are >> not things which might escape your good attention . > > I READ: The reason why Vygotsky reiterates words like action, behavior, > activity, work and labor is that this is the basis of everything, including > language. > > HAYDI SAYS: Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for > granted . > > > I READ: To try to dissolve the action component of sign use is to deny the > important role of action and to deny what is always there implicit in > Vygotsky's treatment of sign use: communicative action is not simply > communication (as it is in Habermas). More importantly, communicative > action is a form of action (as it is in Marx). > > HAYDI SAYS: Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , > art in >> general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either > did >> not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . >> > > I READ: It is true that Vygotsky is fascinated by the word, most viisible > in Psychology of Art and other texts on the arts (e.g. the essay on the > dramatic art of the actor). But in all of these action is taken for granted > (see especially the dramatic art of the actor). > > HAYDI SAYS: In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about > an >> environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools >> even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the > influence >> of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies >> that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of >> speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , > then >> the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for >> transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear >> advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . >> > > I READ: The main message of HDHPF is that the higher psychological > functions are only RELATIVELY higher; they are still very much linked to > lower functions, and the link is of a genetic nature. But that doesn't > simply mean that the higher functions arise out of the lower functions; it > also means that they can transform the lower functions in their own image. > That is what happens: it's not the case that action just takes up where > words fail us, any more than it is the case that man's physical evolution > stopped when his cultural evolution began. > > HAYDI SAYS I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought > that with >> rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was >> finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now > had >> to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them >> penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs > because >> the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . >> > > I READ: Nor is it the case that physical evolution is there as a kind of > "Plan B" when our cultural Plan A fails us. On the contrary: what language > does is to allow potential action to become real. But even the richest, > ripest talk does not satisfy life's needs; it must be completed by action. > > HAYDI SAYS: > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous > deeds and >> wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive >> arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they >> won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written >> files therefrom , either . > > I READ: Capitalists are aware of this: they would like very much to > relegate the forces of progress to pure talk. > > > HAYDI SAYS: The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world > may wayward >> another big disaster !! >> and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a >> crowned one ! > > I READ: Oppressed people everywhere must understand that although > phylogenetically the deed is crowned with the word, sociohistorically, > things are the other way around: the words that have only been able to > provide a sketch of "the good life" in art must be crowned with the deed. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Feb 27 20:13:22 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 04:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: <1045916698.56805.1425095545942.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <1045916698.56805.1425095545942.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1425096801709.32213@unm.edu> In response to Doug, I'm thinking of the question (? la Jeopardy) What is a talking stick? :) From hshonerd@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 20:25:56 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:25:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> Mike, Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not full articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. Anyway it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I did vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. Free! Henry > On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the > abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner > is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a week > or so when people have had a chance to check out the > abstracts and to make a choice. > > Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as often > as you can. :-) > > mike > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 21:11:46 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:11:46 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I followed your lead and searched on line for this book and found it is out of print. However by searching on google books I was able to read a chapter tracing Simmel's work back to his and Dilthey's teacher Lazarus in the 1860's. I would recommend reading this chapter if interested in the context of the themes of German scholarship in the 1860's. Tracing how a scholar of Simmel's stature, who was widely read at the turn of the 20th century, became a relatively marginal figure, in human studies is also fascinating reading. There now seems to be a revival of interest in Simmel's work a hundred years after he was writing.. This ebb and flow in ideas is itself a fascinating phenomena to witness. Conversations as living forms that traverse generations. Today Simmel is read as a "sociologist" but in the "salon culture" existing in places such as Berlin or Vienna at the turn of the 20th century reading "Simmel" was not so constrained within disciplinary boundaries. Simmel saw himself primarily as a philosopher and sociology was only one aspect of his broader philosophical interest. Larry On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 2:35 PM, mike cole wrote: > Larry---- a delayed thank you for the comments on Simmel. A very accessible > and thoughtful account of his work, *Cultivating Minds: Identity as meaning > making practice,* > might interest XMCAers because of its emphasis the centrality of culture in > human nature formulated in a way that is comfortable ground for > developmentally oriented scholars. > > The chapter on "Behavior settings as media for children's development" is > particularly close to the interests of those xmca-ers for whom > intervention/design research is important. > > mike > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > Simmel's > > approach to being human, > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > > and a hopeful thinker. > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > century. > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > tradition > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > and > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > further > > expansion. > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > dialectic. > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > interaction. > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > and > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > existence. > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > dualism > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > abstract > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > > of Simmel's work: > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > > application of these general polarities. > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > general > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > well > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > > thought. > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > introduces a > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > but > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > viewpoint > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > fixed > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties > of > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > unstructured wall. > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > "natural" > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > all > > our activity. > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > cue > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > flaneur. > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > "movement" > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > > and offered no final word. > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > 1] reciprocal effect > > 2] form and content > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model > of > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > fit > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > his > > approach. > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > FOR > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > from > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > "as > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Sat Feb 28 02:03:37 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 10:03:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an understudied field. Oncology? Really? Rob On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not full articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. Anyway it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I did vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. Free! > Henry > > >> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the >> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a week >> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >> abstracts and to make a choice. >> >> Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as often >> as you can. :-) >> >> mike >> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Feb 28 03:13:50 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:13:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556258544.180801.1425122030247.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Larry, Truly speaking , I see nothing in the piece to disagree with . Just it's a matter of "jargon" which complicates a take for concepts as I read in Vygotsky's works . I fear being warned if I take it paragraph by paragraph . I can take your being in the world and your "historical ontology" as man wishing to live enthusiastically with hope and conscious behaviour and perseverance in removing obstacles in the way . Francine also clarified the difference between the two types of conscious behaviour. I became very happy when Francine exposed her view on Vygotsky . By "ideals" , I didn't mean the highly desired ; I meant the reflection of the real world onto the mind ; here it's a matter of drives and motives to life . Ethics come from social norms and what if alienation becomes the social indispensable norm . By "situated freedom" , I take it not something given , innate . But something you should fight for . I wouldn't like being in the world as Sartre and Camus liked to be . You ARE and you want to remain the so-called independent individual you have been and you're to be . What befalls the "stranger" , the "Outsider" is catastrophic . What might come from a human being who's been metamorphosed into an instinct because of social pressures , disasters , calamities , ... ?. What might come from a decrepit mutilated outcast who has to talk to his own shadow in solitude as our Hedaayat narrates in his "The Blind Owl" .? "Stylized Mode of Being" comes to my rescue , however . 1. Thinking and Speech and the formation of concepts , the crowning of the word .2. True ! Man's wrestling with Nature , with the entities in the world through what comes out of dialogues and negotiations .3. We have a saying "The action-free knowledgeable man is a tree unyielding" . The true scholar finds the core problem in social life , resolves contradictions if any , builds up the personality according to the personal sense he gets from the society via hereditary temperaments . I cannot think of ethics as something additive or detached . Teach me the genetics of ethics , please .? A good friend of ours , knowledgeable as he is , told me now it's not a matter of the beginnings . It's a matter of whether we are in the middle or the end . He is quite right . Now what is due is reciprocity , interaction and if you please , dialectics between the two . Each enriches the other , no linear movement .? The finishing paragraphs give me clue to what I could take from what you wrote purposefully . Larry ! You write so much and so long and I have always tried to understand you ; now more comfortable with your script . Thank you so much ! Best Wishes ? From: Larry Purss To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:55:20 Subject: [Xmca-l] The world of freedom AND historical Ontology Haydi and Francine have continued the conversation on the understanding of functions and the origin in actions and activity. Haydi commented, Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . I want to introduce a book by Robert Nichols titled "The World of Freedom: Heidegger, Foucault and the Politics of Historical Ontology". [2014] I got this book from Kindle for around $10. I bought it because of his clear statement on shifting to "ethical questions" [to have ideals that PENETRATE cycles of activities]. Robert is making a case that freedom can be "thought" through notions of "ontology" and "situated freedom" This way of formulating "freedom" critiques notions of freedom as understood in terms of "a property OF the individual subject. Robert is making the case that freedom is a "mode of being-in-the-world". He states that as a mode this "kind" of reciprocal interrelationship [as Simmel understands reciprocal] AND "stylized mode" of being. This being-in-the-world seeks to "disclose" the mutual interrelatedness of 3 aspects of being. 1] the acquisition of knowledge 2] the appearance of a domain of entities about which knowledge claims can be made and most centrally 3] the "ethical transformation" of the "subject" [matter] of knowledge. [see Gadamer for a notion of subject matter as such] Robert's book is an attempt to disclose this 3 part reciprocal interrelatedness through a "working out" of the possibilities and potential "projected" [ideally] within the worldly activities "of" disclosure. THIS activity "makes" a horizon of intelligibility possible and thus [as subject matter] the "field" or "clearing" ON WHICH self-recognition and self-formation take "place" To "be free" is NOT to detach oneself from this [subject matter] this "field" or "clearing" THROUGH an act of cognitive reflection. Robert Nichols is making a claim that the reciprocal interrelation of freedom and historical ontology does not disclose the subject matter by an act of "cognitive reflection" but to "be free" is to be in a "mode" of relation TO the "field" or "clearing". This means to "cultivate" a certain *ethical attitude of awareness WITHIN the activities of disclosure that constitute the ontological ground of the field or clearing ITSELF" * In other words, this ethical "style" or "mode" IS to "take care" of the "field or clearing" and through the care of this field one takes care of the "self" Haydi mentioned action and activity as primary. Robert's approach to these questions of "situated freedom" as occurring as activity and action "of disclosure" within "fields or clearings".? I will circle back to the centrality of the imaginal in imagining these fields and clearings as coming into formation that enact fundamental "ethical styles or stances or positions" This is a kind of "third space" which honours activity that is fundamentally ethical enactments existing by "being-in-the-world" Robert Nichols, by bringing Heidegger and Foucault into conversation, believes he can offer clarity the activity of disclosing the interrelation of freedom and historical ontology as "acts of care" of the "field or clearing" which nurtures or cultivates this "subject matter" as such. I chose this book as I try to get clarity on the multiple notions of "third spaces" that require ethical stances or styles or modes to bring into potential being the ideal forms that have the "power" to change the pre-reflective crystliized sedimented formations we are born into.This is a "genre" within the theme of "situated freedom" brought into awareness through the reciprocal interrelation of having Heidegger and Foucault in conversation with Robert Nichols [as an act of disclosure] Larry From smago@uga.edu Sat Feb 28 03:59:47 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:59:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] AERA online program is now available! Message-ID: [cid:image001.png@01D05324.2A9FACE0] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 303082 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150228/8435ec3c/attachment-0001.png From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 06:37:14 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 06:37:14 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Rob-- Perhaps the the author meant understudied by social scientists of the type who publish in MCA? mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology > one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an > understudied field. Oncology? Really? > > Rob > > > On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Mike, >> Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not full >> articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. Anyway >> it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I did >> vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. Free! >> Henry >> >> >> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the >>> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >>> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a >>> week >>> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >>> abstracts and to make a choice. >>> >>> Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as >>> often >>> as you can. :-) >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Feb 28 07:09:37 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:09:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1641448845.334890.1425136177636.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Mike, Maybe I've been speaking about something which is crystal-clear to you . I thought you and the majority of good colleagues here think of Vygotsky as ignoring the act altogether . It's always been my problem when reading Vygotsky . At times , while reading , I reach a point where I can see quite clearly , transparently that , as I said , Vygotsky took deed for granted . His favorite province was to do research on how child's development finds its way through conversion of functions a la benevolence of word and broader conceptions plus nuances and interplay with deed . As Francine talks so fluently and understandably about what Vygotsky intends to say about each problem , I decided to see how she thinks about this point . I think she came up with brilliant words in this respect .? And the tying with politics of the Day , I think , is the task before each of us . Prior to your message , I read Miguel's invitation for an act of social fibre . That , too , comes from the infiltration of capitalist rule within even the tiniest corner of people's social life . Macro-social anti-popular plannings of global transnational Capitalism requires our collective talk and deed , union and unison so that life might traverse more smoothly upon the path . Asia , Africa , Australia , Americas , far from dealing with the dim points which are to be found in each nation's history , should be on the alert against the threats which knows no boundary and no interruptions . Thanks so much !? From: mike cole To: Haydi Zulfei ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 2:34:52 Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] (no subject) I do not understand the central message of this note, Haydi.mike On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are not things which might escape your good attention .? Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted .? Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" .? In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda .? I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs .? Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written files therefrom , either .? The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward another big disaster !! and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a crowned one ! Cheers ? ? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Feb 28 07:29:54 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:29:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity as Hyponym In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1062674820.366976.1425137394637.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Terribly excellent , Kellog !! ... doesn't matter what might come next . You're brilliant even when you disagree . I promise to read the collected works many more times !? Truly From: David Kellogg To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 4:21:56 Subject: [Xmca-l] Activity as Hyponym Some of the confusion is mine, I'm afraid. It began with a very confusing note I wrote yesterday. I was trying to explain a terminological problem in CHAT. In Vygotsky and Volosinov, "meaning" is a superordinate term (a hypernym) but it also a subordinate type of meaning (a hyponym): ? ? ? ? ? ? MEANING (znachenie) meaning (znachenie)? ? sense? (smysl) It seemed to me that the same thing has happened with activity: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? MEDIATING ACTIVITY tool use (orudnie)? ? ? ? ? ? sign use (znak) The problem is that we use "activity" for both tool use and sign use, or, worse, we use "tools/signs" as a superordinate term (a hypernym) and as a subordinate term (a hyponym). Now you can see that these are two different mistakes. Conflating tools and signs is one mistake, and using "activity" for both mediating activity and for tool-bearing activity is a different mistake. But I confused them. Haydi sometimes communicates with me off list (and in fact it's entirely possible that this message was mostly intended for me) and I understand what he says very well, because it is part of a longstanding discussion we have been having about what Vygotsky means when he says "In the beginning was the act".? To me, this means that the act is really only the beginning, and we need to move on in our theorization. But to Haydi it really means that the act is the basis of everything (and in particular the basis of social activism, where counts is deeds and not words). So here's how I read Haydi. But Haydi should correct me if I have him wrong. HAYDI SAYS: I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through > his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" > : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are > not things which might escape your good attention . I READ: The reason why Vygotsky reiterates words like action, behavior, activity, work and labor is that this is the basis of everything, including language. HAYDI SAYS: Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted . I READ: To try to dissolve the action component of sign use is to deny the important role of action and to deny what is always there implicit in Vygotsky's treatment of sign use: communicative action is not simply communication (as it is in Habermas). More importantly, communicative action is a form of action (as it is in Marx). HAYDI SAYS: Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in > general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did > not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . > I READ: It is true that Vygotsky is fascinated by the word, most viisible in Psychology of Art and other texts on the arts (e.g. the essay on the dramatic art of the actor). But in all of these action is taken for granted (see especially the dramatic art of the actor). HAYDI SAYS: In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an > environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools > even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence > of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies > that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of > speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then > the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for > transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear > advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . > I READ: The main message of HDHPF is that the higher psychological functions are only RELATIVELY higher; they are still very much linked to lower functions, and the link is of a genetic nature. But that doesn't simply mean that the higher functions arise out of the lower functions; it also means that they can transform the lower functions in their own image. That is what happens: it's not the case that action just takes up where words fail us, any more than it is the case that man's physical evolution stopped when his cultural evolution began. HAYDI SAYS I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with > rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was > finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had > to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them > penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because > the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . > I READ: Nor is it the case that physical evolution is there as a kind of "Plan B" when our cultural Plan A fails us. On the contrary: what language does is to allow potential action to become real. But even the richest, ripest talk does not satisfy life's needs; it must be completed by action. HAYDI SAYS: > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and > wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive > arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they > won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written > files therefrom , either . I READ: Capitalists are aware of this: they would like very much to relegate the forces of progress to pure talk. HAYDI SAYS:? The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward > another big disaster !! > and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a > crowned one ! I READ: Oppressed people everywhere must understand that although phylogenetically the deed is crowned with the word, sociohistorically, things are the other way around: the words that have only been able to provide a sketch of "the good life" in art must be crowned with the deed. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 07:40:15 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:40:15 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity as Hyponym In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, thank you for this!!! I was trying to interpret what Haydi wrote, because it seems packed with meaning. I got stuck on some of the statements that you expound, such as "And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear > >> advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda." I hope to hear what Haydi says about your interpretation. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 27, 2015, at 4:51 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Some of the confusion is mine, I'm afraid. It began with a very confusing > note I wrote yesterday. I was trying to explain a terminological problem in > CHAT. In Vygotsky and Volosinov, "meaning" is a superordinate term (a > hypernym) but it also a subordinate type of meaning (a hyponym): > > MEANING (znachenie) > > meaning (znachenie) sense (smysl) > > It seemed to me that the same thing has happened with activity: > > > MEDIATING ACTIVITY > > tool use (orudnie) sign use (znak) > > > The problem is that we use "activity" for both tool use and sign use, or, > worse, we use "tools/signs" as a superordinate term (a hypernym) and as a > subordinate term (a hyponym). > > Now you can see that these are two different mistakes. Conflating tools and > signs is one mistake, and using "activity" for both mediating activity and > for tool-bearing activity is a different mistake. But I confused them. > > Haydi sometimes communicates with me off list (and in fact it's entirely > possible that this message was mostly intended for me) and I understand > what he says very well, because it is part of a longstanding discussion we > have been having about what Vygotsky means when he says "In the beginning > was the act". To me, this means that the act is really only the beginning, > and we need to move on in our theorization. But to Haydi it really means > that the act is the basis of everything (and in particular the basis of > social activism, where counts is deeds and not words). > > So here's how I read Haydi. But Haydi should correct me if I have him wrong. > > HAYDI SAYS: > > I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through >> his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" >> : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are >> not things which might escape your good attention . > > I READ: The reason why Vygotsky reiterates words like action, behavior, > activity, work and labor is that this is the basis of everything, including > language. > > HAYDI SAYS: Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for > granted . > > > I READ: To try to dissolve the action component of sign use is to deny the > important role of action and to deny what is always there implicit in > Vygotsky's treatment of sign use: communicative action is not simply > communication (as it is in Habermas). More importantly, communicative > action is a form of action (as it is in Marx). > > HAYDI SAYS: Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , > art in >> general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either > did >> not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . >> > > I READ: It is true that Vygotsky is fascinated by the word, most viisible > in Psychology of Art and other texts on the arts (e.g. the essay on the > dramatic art of the actor). But in all of these action is taken for granted > (see especially the dramatic art of the actor). > > HAYDI SAYS: In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about > an >> environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools >> even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the > influence >> of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies >> that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of >> speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , > then >> the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for >> transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear >> advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . >> > > I READ: The main message of HDHPF is that the higher psychological > functions are only RELATIVELY higher; they are still very much linked to > lower functions, and the link is of a genetic nature. But that doesn't > simply mean that the higher functions arise out of the lower functions; it > also means that they can transform the lower functions in their own image. > That is what happens: it's not the case that action just takes up where > words fail us, any more than it is the case that man's physical evolution > stopped when his cultural evolution began. > > HAYDI SAYS I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought > that with >> rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was >> finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now > had >> to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them >> penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs > because >> the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . >> > > I READ: Nor is it the case that physical evolution is there as a kind of > "Plan B" when our cultural Plan A fails us. On the contrary: what language > does is to allow potential action to become real. But even the richest, > ripest talk does not satisfy life's needs; it must be completed by action. > > HAYDI SAYS: > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous > deeds and >> wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive >> arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they >> won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written >> files therefrom , either . > > I READ: Capitalists are aware of this: they would like very much to > relegate the forces of progress to pure talk. > > > HAYDI SAYS: The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world > may wayward >> another big disaster !! >> and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a >> crowned one ! > > I READ: Oppressed people everywhere must understand that although > phylogenetically the deed is crowned with the word, sociohistorically, > things are the other way around: the words that have only been able to > provide a sketch of "the good life" in art must be crowned with the deed. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Feb 28 07:57:11 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:57:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity as Hyponym In-Reply-To: <22864486-9506-4E71-BBF9-89A3A12C4824@gmail.com> References: <22864486-9506-4E71-BBF9-89A3A12C4824@gmail.com> Message-ID: <230218258.358178.1425139031713.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> You're so welcome , Henry Jaan ! Please don't compare me with David !! ?Regards ! From: HENRY SHONERD To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 7:32:57 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Activity as Hyponym David, I would call the posts of you and Haydi performance art, as you and Annalisa have been discussing it. Is that weird? There is certainly art to it. You?re on stage. I assume it is happening all the time in the chat, and I usually miss it. But this interchange hit me in a sweet spot. The unshackled Haydi followed by David?s readings was great reading! Why is that so? It?s like reading an article in the Atlantic and being able to read the letters to the editor right away! Seriously here. Synchronicity informed diachronically, since both Haydi and David are Vygotskian translators and interpreters. For those of us who haven?t learned to swim in Russian. Henry ? > On Feb 27, 2015, at 5:51 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Some of the confusion is mine, I'm afraid. It began with a very confusing > note I wrote yesterday. I was trying to explain a terminological problem in > CHAT. In Vygotsky and Volosinov, "meaning" is a superordinate term (a > hypernym) but it also a subordinate type of meaning (a hyponym): > >? ? ? ? ? ? MEANING (znachenie) > > meaning (znachenie)? ? sense? (smysl) > > It seemed to me that the same thing has happened with activity: > > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? MEDIATING ACTIVITY > > tool use (orudnie)? ? ? ? ? ? sign use (znak) > > > The problem is that we use "activity" for both tool use and sign use, or, > worse, we use "tools/signs" as a superordinate term (a hypernym) and as a > subordinate term (a hyponym). > > Now you can see that these are two different mistakes. Conflating tools and > signs is one mistake, and using "activity" for both mediating activity and > for tool-bearing activity is a different mistake. But I confused them. > > Haydi sometimes communicates with me off list (and in fact it's entirely > possible that this message was mostly intended for me) and I understand > what he says very well, because it is part of a longstanding discussion we > have been having about what Vygotsky means when he says "In the beginning > was the act".? To me, this means that the act is really only the beginning, > and we need to move on in our theorization. But to Haydi it really means > that the act is the basis of everything (and in particular the basis of > social activism, where counts is deeds and not words). > > So here's how I read Haydi. But Haydi should correct me if I have him wrong. > > HAYDI SAYS: > > I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through >> his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" >> : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are >> not things which might escape your good attention . > > I READ: The reason why Vygotsky reiterates words like action, behavior, > activity, work and labor is that this is the basis of everything, including > language. > > HAYDI SAYS: Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for > granted . > > > I READ: To try to dissolve the action component of sign use is to deny the > important role of action and to deny what is always there implicit in > Vygotsky's treatment of sign use: communicative action is not simply > communication (as it is in Habermas). More importantly, communicative > action is a form of action (as it is in Marx). > > HAYDI SAYS: Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , > art in >> general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either > did >> not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . >> > > I READ: It is true that Vygotsky is fascinated by the word, most viisible > in Psychology of Art and other texts on the arts (e.g. the essay on the > dramatic art of the actor). But in all of these action is taken for granted > (see especially the dramatic art of the actor). > > HAYDI SAYS: In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about > an >> environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools >> even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the > influence >> of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies >> that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of >> speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , > then >> the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for >> transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear >> advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . >> > > I READ: The main message of HDHPF is that the higher psychological > functions are only RELATIVELY higher; they are still very much linked to > lower functions, and the link is of a genetic nature. But that doesn't > simply mean that the higher functions arise out of the lower functions; it > also means that they can transform the lower functions in their own image. > That is what happens: it's not the case that action just takes up where > words fail us, any more than it is the case that man's physical evolution > stopped when his cultural evolution began. > > HAYDI SAYS I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought > that with >> rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was >> finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now > had >> to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them >> penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs > because >> the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . >> > > I READ: Nor is it the case that physical evolution is there as a kind of > "Plan B" when our cultural Plan A fails us. On the contrary: what language > does is to allow potential action to become real. But even the richest, > ripest talk does not satisfy life's needs; it must be completed by action. > > HAYDI SAYS: > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous > deeds and >> wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive >> arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they >> won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written >> files therefrom , either . > > I READ: Capitalists are aware of this: they would like very much to > relegate the forces of progress to pure talk. > > > HAYDI SAYS:? The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world > may wayward >> another big disaster !! >> and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a >> crowned one ! > > I READ: Oppressed people everywhere must understand that although > phylogenetically the deed is crowned with the word, sociohistorically, > things are the other way around: the words that have only been able to > provide a sketch of "the good life" in art must be crowned with the deed. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Sat Feb 28 08:01:59 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:01:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> I considered that, but it seems an odd way to put it. On 28/02/2015 14:37, mike cole wrote: > Rob-- Perhaps the the author meant understudied by social scientists of the > type > who publish in MCA? > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology >> one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an >> understudied field. Oncology? Really? >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not full >>> articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. Anyway >>> it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I did >>> vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. Free! >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the >>>> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >>>> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a >>>> week >>>> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >>>> abstracts and to make a choice. >>>> >>>> Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as >>>> often >>>> as you can. :-) >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object >>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC >> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >> Conduct Authority. >> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Feb 28 08:06:44 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:06:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Fw: Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology In-Reply-To: <556258544.180801.1425122030247.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <556258544.180801.1425122030247.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <160860912.357814.1425139604097.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Sorry ! ... metamorphosed into an insect ... a la Koffka's "Metamorphasis" ! ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Haydi Zulfei To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 28 February 2015, 14:43:50 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology Larry, Truly speaking , I see nothing in the piece to disagree with . Just it's a matter of "jargon" which complicates a take for concepts as I read in Vygotsky's works . I fear being warned if I take it paragraph by paragraph . I can take your being in the world and your "historical ontology" as man wishing to live enthusiastically with hope and conscious behaviour and perseverance in removing obstacles in the way . Francine also clarified the difference between the two types of conscious behaviour. I became very happy when Francine exposed her view on Vygotsky . By "ideals" , I didn't mean the highly desired ; I meant the reflection of the real world onto the mind ; here it's a matter of drives and motives to life . Ethics come from social norms and what if alienation becomes the social indispensable norm . By "situated freedom" , I take it not something given , innate . But something you should fight for . I wouldn't like being in the world as Sartre and Camus liked to be . You ARE and you want to remain the so-called independent individual you have been and you're to be . What befalls the "stranger" , the "Outsider" is catastrophic . What might come from a human being who's been metamorphosed into an instinct because of social pressures , disasters , calamities , ... ?. What might come from a decrepit mutilated outcast who has to talk to his own shadow in solitude as our Hedaayat narrates in his "The Blind Owl" .? "Stylized Mode of Being" comes to my rescue , however . 1. Thinking and Speech and the formation of concepts , the crowning of the word .2. True ! Man's wrestling with Nature , with the entities in the world through what comes out of dialogues and negotiations .3. We have a saying "The action-free knowledgeable man is a tree unyielding" . The true scholar finds the core problem in social life , resolves contradictions if any , builds up the personality according to the personal sense he gets from the society via hereditary temperaments . I cannot think of ethics as something additive or detached . Teach me the genetics of ethics , please .? A good friend of ours , knowledgeable as he is , told me now it's not a matter of the beginnings . It's a matter of whether we are in the middle or the end . He is quite right . Now what is due is reciprocity , interaction and if you please , dialectics between the two . Each enriches the other , no linear movement .? The finishing paragraphs give me clue to what I could take from what you wrote purposefully . Larry ! You write so much and so long and I have always tried to understand you ; now more comfortable with your script . Thank you so much ! Best Wishes ? ? ? ? From: Larry Purss To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:55:20 Subject: [Xmca-l] The world of freedom AND historical Ontology ? Haydi and Francine have continued the conversation on the understanding of functions and the origin in actions and activity. Haydi commented, Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . I want to introduce a book by Robert Nichols titled "The World of Freedom: Heidegger, Foucault and the Politics of Historical Ontology". [2014] I got this book from Kindle for around $10. I bought it because of his clear statement on shifting to "ethical questions" [to have ideals that PENETRATE cycles of activities]. Robert is making a case that freedom can be "thought" through notions of "ontology" and "situated freedom" This way of formulating "freedom" critiques notions of freedom as understood in terms of "a property OF the individual subject. Robert is making the case that freedom is a "mode of being-in-the-world". He states that as a mode this "kind" of reciprocal interrelationship [as Simmel understands reciprocal] AND "stylized mode" of being. This being-in-the-world seeks to "disclose" the mutual interrelatedness of 3 aspects of being. 1] the acquisition of knowledge 2] the appearance of a domain of entities about which knowledge claims can be made and most centrally 3] the "ethical transformation" of the "subject" [matter] of knowledge. [see Gadamer for a notion of subject matter as such] Robert's book is an attempt to disclose this 3 part reciprocal interrelatedness through a "working out" of the possibilities and potential "projected" [ideally] within the worldly activities "of" disclosure. THIS activity "makes" a horizon of intelligibility possible and thus [as subject matter] the "field" or "clearing" ON WHICH self-recognition and self-formation take "place" To "be free" is NOT to detach oneself from this [subject matter] this "field" or "clearing" THROUGH an act of cognitive reflection. Robert Nichols is making a claim that the reciprocal interrelation of freedom and historical ontology does not disclose the subject matter by an act of "cognitive reflection" but to "be free" is to be in a "mode" of relation TO the "field" or "clearing". This means to "cultivate" a certain *ethical attitude of awareness WITHIN the activities of disclosure that constitute the ontological ground of the field or clearing ITSELF" * In other words, this ethical "style" or "mode" IS to "take care" of the "field or clearing" and through the care of this field one takes care of the "self" Haydi mentioned action and activity as primary. Robert's approach to these questions of "situated freedom" as occurring as activity and action "of disclosure" within "fields or clearings".? I will circle back to the centrality of the imaginal in imagining these fields and clearings as coming into formation that enact fundamental "ethical styles or stances or positions" This is a kind of "third space" which honours activity that is fundamentally ethical enactments existing by "being-in-the-world" Robert Nichols, by bringing Heidegger and Foucault into conversation, believes he can offer clarity the activity of disclosing the interrelation of freedom and historical ontology as "acts of care" of the "field or clearing" which nurtures or cultivates this "subject matter" as such. I chose this book as I try to get clarity on the multiple notions of "third spaces" that require ethical stances or styles or modes to bring into potential being the ideal forms that have the "power" to change the pre-reflective crystliized sedimented formations we are born into.This is a "genre" within the theme of "situated freedom" brought into awareness through the reciprocal interrelation of having Heidegger and Foucault in conversation with Robert Nichols [as an act of disclosure] Larry From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 08:23:19 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 08:23:19 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps, Rob, like many contributors to this list and the journal, the authors are not native speakers of English and the editors and copy editors who worked on the ms thought that the abstract made it was clear that this was a paper about decision making. Residual misunderstandings are the editors' responsibility of course. Mea 1/4 culpa. I believe all the articles are worth discussion. Voting is the easy part, discussion a little more time consuming! :-) mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:01 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > I considered that, but it seems an odd way to put it. > > > > On 28/02/2015 14:37, mike cole wrote: > >> Rob-- Perhaps the the author meant understudied by social scientists of >> the >> type >> who publish in MCA? >> mike >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> >> I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology >>> one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an >>> understudied field. Oncology? Really? >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>> >>> Mike, >>>> Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not >>>> full >>>> articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. >>>> Anyway >>>> it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I did >>>> vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. >>>> Free! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the >>>>> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >>>>> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a >>>>> week >>>>> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >>>>> abstracts and to make a choice. >>>>> >>>>> Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as >>>>> often >>>>> as you can. :-) >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object >>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>> (SC >>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >>> Conduct Authority. >>> >>> >>> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 08:31:50 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:31:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hyper-text In-Reply-To: <1425096801709.32213@unm.edu> References: <, > <1045916698.56805.1425095545942.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <1425096801709.32213@unm.edu> Message-ID: <8E0BA9EA-52BA-450C-87B9-2837BAD13563@gmail.com> Annalisa, I couldn?t find the turns between you and Doug regarding the ?talking stick?. Be that as it may, I was thinking that such an object would be like the one described in this little grad paper written by a Navajo teacher enrolled in a course on ESL methodology I taught for the Unversity of New Mexico a few years back. Henry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ramona-grad-d.doc Type: application/msword Size: 7850 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150228/9ae3f1f4/attachment.doc -------------- next part -------------- > On Feb 27, 2015, at 9:13 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > In response to Doug, I'm thinking of the question (? la Jeopardy) > > What is a talking stick? > > :) From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 08:38:13 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 08:38:13 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 10:09:49 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 10:09:49 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology In-Reply-To: <160860912.357814.1425139604097.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <556258544.180801.1425122030247.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <160860912.357814.1425139604097.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Haydi, Yes, I also sense a convergence between my jargon which is a hybrid mixing up of traditions traditions and what you have expressed as ways of acting in the world. I gave a rather long preamble because the notion of "freedom" seems central to where we are heading potentially. I wanted to situate the two dominant notions of freedom [negative freedom AS autonomy] and [positive freedom as expression of authentic self] as contrasted with the third alternative [freedom as situated]. Then I introduced what seems central for "situated freedom" is "spaces" or "places" and showed how Heidegger's language of "fields" and "clearings" are ways of describing this key concept of "metaphorically" imagined spaces/places which have the possibility or potential to "come into form". The ethical indicates the way or approach of orienting towards these not yet but could be places as places of "situated freedom". It is in the act of bringing "to life" [to actuality] these "living forms" that the subject attains "freedom". Freedom is immanent within the crystallized and sedimented forms as normative [Gadamer's prejudices or prejudgements] which each of us "brings" to our conversations [spoken and written]. However, though our prejudices is where we begin, [the always already existing] it is through expanding our "horizons" within the already given and the application of this expanded awareness through bringing into form potential could be places/spaces that freedom emerges within these emerging third spaces. If this commentary is read as "jargon" or "wordy"I am trying to understand the relation of Vygotskian concepts as emerging situated concepts [living thoughts] which were emerging in a historically situated time at the opening of the 20th century and how these notions of being-in-the-world were "conditioned" by multiple streams of thought [crystalized, normative, and open-ended] which influenced the way scholars asked and answered questions at that time and are now the current "conditions" [as living words] for getting our bearings as we ask new questions about how we "ought" to proceed AND what types or kinds of spaces/places to create in which to be free. [and become certain "kinds" of persons. This way of questioning our "subject matter" is ALWAYS an ethical question and returns us to our shared living world and how we are to "act" with "ethical guidance" and with others in our expanding "horizons" of possibility [the could be] On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Sorry ! ... metamorphosed into an insect ... a la Koffka's "Metamorphasis" > ! > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > *From:* Haydi Zulfei > *To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > *Sent:* Saturday, 28 February 2015, 14:43:50 > *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology > > Larry, > Truly speaking , I see nothing in the piece to disagree with . Just it's a > matter of "jargon" which complicates a take for concepts as I read in > Vygotsky's works . > I fear being warned if I take it paragraph by paragraph . > > I can take your being in the world and your "historical ontology" as man > wishing to live enthusiastically with hope and conscious behaviour and > perseverance in removing obstacles in the way . Francine also clarified the > difference between the two types of conscious behaviour. I became very > happy when Francine exposed her view on Vygotsky . > > By "ideals" , I didn't mean the highly desired ; I meant the reflection of > the real world onto the mind ; here it's a matter of drives and motives to > life . Ethics come from social norms and what if alienation becomes the > social indispensable norm . > > By "situated freedom" , I take it not something given , innate . But > something you should fight for . I wouldn't like being in the world as > Sartre and Camus liked to be . You ARE and you want to remain the so-called > independent individual you have been and you're to be . What befalls the > "stranger" , the "Outsider" is catastrophic . What might come from a human > being who's been metamorphosed into an instinct because of social pressures > , disasters , calamities , ... . What might come from a decrepit mutilated > outcast who has to talk to his own shadow in solitude as our Hedaayat > narrates in his "The Blind Owl" . > > "Stylized Mode of Being" comes to my rescue , however . > > 1. Thinking and Speech and the formation of concepts , the crowning of the > word .2. True ! Man's wrestling with Nature , with the entities in the > world through what comes out of dialogues and negotiations .3. We have a > saying "The action-free knowledgeable man is a tree unyielding" . The true > scholar finds the core problem in social life , resolves contradictions if > any , builds up the personality according to the personal sense he gets > from the society via hereditary temperaments . I cannot think of ethics as > something additive or detached . Teach me the genetics of ethics , please . > > A good friend of ours , knowledgeable as he is , told me now it's not a > matter of the beginnings . It's a matter of whether we are in the middle or > the end . He is quite right . Now what is due is reciprocity , interaction > and if you please , dialectics between the two . Each enriches the other , > no linear movement . > > The finishing paragraphs give me clue to what I could take from what you > wrote purposefully . Larry ! You write so much and so long and I have > always tried to understand you ; now more comfortable with your script . > Thank you so much ! > Best Wishes > From: Larry Purss > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:55:20 > Subject: [Xmca-l] The world of freedom AND historical Ontology > > Haydi and Francine have continued the conversation on the understanding of > functions and the origin in actions and activity. > Haydi commented, > > Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , > to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy > needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . > > I want to introduce a book by Robert Nichols titled "The World of Freedom: > Heidegger, Foucault and the Politics of Historical Ontology". [2014] I got > this book from Kindle for around $10. I bought it because of his clear > statement on shifting to "ethical questions" [to have ideals that PENETRATE > cycles of activities]. > > Robert is making a case that freedom can be "thought" through notions of > "ontology" and "situated freedom" This way of formulating "freedom" > critiques notions of freedom as understood in terms of "a property OF the > individual subject. Robert is making the case that freedom is a "mode of > being-in-the-world". He states that as a mode this "kind" of reciprocal > interrelationship [as Simmel understands reciprocal] AND "stylized mode" of > being. > > This being-in-the-world seeks to "disclose" the mutual interrelatedness of > 3 aspects of being. > 1] the acquisition of knowledge > 2] the appearance of a domain of entities about which knowledge claims can > be made > and most centrally > 3] the "ethical transformation" of the "subject" [matter] of knowledge. > [see Gadamer for a notion of subject matter as such] > > Robert's book is an attempt to disclose this 3 part reciprocal > interrelatedness through a "working out" of the possibilities and potential > "projected" [ideally] within the worldly activities "of" disclosure. THIS > activity "makes" a horizon of intelligibility possible and thus [as subject > matter] the "field" or "clearing" ON WHICH self-recognition and > self-formation take "place" > > To "be free" is NOT to detach oneself from this [subject matter] this > "field" or "clearing" THROUGH an act of cognitive reflection. Robert > Nichols is making a claim that the reciprocal interrelation of freedom and > historical ontology does not disclose the subject matter by an act of > "cognitive reflection" but to "be free" is to be in a "mode" of relation TO > the "field" or "clearing". This means to "cultivate" a certain *ethical > attitude of awareness WITHIN the activities of disclosure that constitute > the ontological ground of the field or clearing ITSELF" * > > In other words, this ethical "style" or "mode" IS to "take care" of the > "field or clearing" and through the care of this field one takes care of > the "self" > > Haydi mentioned action and activity as primary. Robert's approach to these > questions of "situated freedom" as occurring as activity and action "of > disclosure" within "fields or clearings". I will circle back to the > centrality of the imaginal in imagining these fields and clearings as > coming into formation that enact fundamental "ethical styles or stances or > positions" > > This is a kind of "third space" which honours activity that is > fundamentally ethical enactments existing by "being-in-the-world" > > Robert Nichols, by bringing Heidegger and Foucault into conversation, > believes he can offer clarity the activity of disclosing the interrelation > of freedom and historical ontology as "acts of care" of the "field or > clearing" which nurtures or cultivates this "subject matter" as such. > > I chose this book as I try to get clarity on the multiple notions of "third > spaces" that require ethical stances or styles or modes to bring into > potential being the ideal forms that have the "power" to change the > pre-reflective crystliized sedimented formations we are born into.This is a > "genre" within the theme of "situated freedom" brought into awareness > through the reciprocal interrelation of having Heidegger and Foucault in > conversation with Robert Nichols [as an act of disclosure] > > Larry > > > > > From shirinvossoughi@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 10:16:22 2015 From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com (Shirin Vossoughi) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:16:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Helena, What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as all the more democratic and free. I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the brutal wars that led to this mess. Shirin On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen wrote: > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Sat Feb 28 10:27:23 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:27:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <54F2088B.8050407@open.ac.uk> I knew that I was jumping to conclusions on the basis of one word, and I'm quite sure it was tua non culpa, Mike; I shall have to read it now, but my impression is that there is more than a little work on the skill and art of medical diagnosis, and a continuing and healthy debate about how it can be taught to would be doctors. Rob On 28/02/2015 16:23, mike cole wrote: > Perhaps, Rob, like many contributors to this list and the journal, the > authors are not native speakers of English and the editors and copy editors > who worked on the ms thought that the abstract made it was clear that this > was a paper about decision making. Residual misunderstandings are the > editors' responsibility of course. Mea 1/4 culpa. > > I believe all the articles are worth discussion. Voting is the easy part, > discussion a little more time consuming! :-) > mike > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:01 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> I considered that, but it seems an odd way to put it. >> >> >> >> On 28/02/2015 14:37, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Rob-- Perhaps the the author meant understudied by social scientists of >>> the >>> type >>> who publish in MCA? >>> mike >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >>> >>> I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology >>>> one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an >>>> understudied field. Oncology? Really? >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>> On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>>> Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not >>>>> full >>>>> articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. >>>>> Anyway >>>>> it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I did >>>>> vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. >>>>> Free! >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>> >>>>>> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check the >>>>>> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >>>>>> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a >>>>>> week >>>>>> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >>>>>> abstracts and to make a choice. >>>>>> >>>>>> Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as >>>>>> often >>>>>> as you can. :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>> object >>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >>>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>>> (SC >>>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >>>> Conduct Authority. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC >> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >> Conduct Authority. >> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 11:00:29 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:00:29 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are Open In-Reply-To: <54F2088B.8050407@open.ac.uk> References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> <54F2088B.8050407@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: With all of the demands on everyone's time, Rob, knowing what and how to read as a means of pursuing one's projects is tough. Reviewers make judgment calls. Sometimes there is news there to excite you, sometimes to bore you, sometimes to irritate you. Hopefully there is something of use there for everyone. Lets see what the wisdom of the crowd tell us regarding choice of article and hope that the crowd will be interested enough in the results to join in the discussion! Hopefully the author can be talked into participating as well; providing authors with feedback in a hurry is our anachronistic form of social media. :-) Meantime, there's that interesting discussion about the precedence of deed and word which is always interesting to think about. Hoping for a spot of your English rain here. mike mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:27 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > I knew that I was jumping to conclusions on the basis of one word, and > I'm quite sure it was tua non culpa, Mike; I shall have to read it now, > but my impression is that there is more than a little work on the skill > and art of medical diagnosis, and a continuing and healthy debate about > how it can be taught to would be doctors. > > Rob > > > On 28/02/2015 16:23, mike cole wrote: > >> Perhaps, Rob, like many contributors to this list and the journal, the >> authors are not native speakers of English and the editors and copy >> editors >> who worked on the ms thought that the abstract made it was clear that this >> was a paper about decision making. Residual misunderstandings are the >> editors' responsibility of course. Mea 1/4 culpa. >> >> I believe all the articles are worth discussion. Voting is the easy part, >> discussion a little more time consuming! :-) >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:01 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> >> I considered that, but it seems an odd way to put it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 28/02/2015 14:37, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Rob-- Perhaps the the author meant understudied by social scientists of >>>> the >>>> type >>>> who publish in MCA? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:03 AM, rjsp2 >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I won't say which one I voted for, but I didn't vote for the oncology >>>> >>>>> one - I couldn't get past the authors' description of it as an >>>>> understudied field. Oncology? Really? >>>>> >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 28/02/2015 04:25, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you. I thought this would be tedious, but then: abstracts, not >>>>>> full >>>>>> articles! Then it got game-like. That of course is your intention. >>>>>> Anyway >>>>>> it all looks like expansion and third spaces. Fractally speaking. I >>>>>> did >>>>>> vote for the Dakota incident but all four of them look interesting. >>>>>> Free! >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:35 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The polls are now open for the first number of MCA for 2015. Check >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> abstracts and see what you would like to discuss. The winner >>>>>>> is made available free at the publishers. We'll arrange for that in a >>>>>>> week >>>>>>> or so when people have had a chance to check out the >>>>>>> abstracts and to make a choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Click here http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/poll.html and vote as >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> as you can. :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>>>> object >>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC >>>>>> 000391), an >>>>>> >>>>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>>>> (SC >>>>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the >>>>> Financial >>>>> Conduct Authority. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >>> an >>> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland >>> (SC >>> 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial >>> Conduct Authority. >>> >>> >>> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial > Conduct Authority. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 11:04:38 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:04:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fw: Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology In-Reply-To: References: <556258544.180801.1425122030247.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <160860912.357814.1425139604097.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6A6C9D4E-398C-438D-A0CF-BDB14DDD3E63@gmail.com> Larry, Would it be fair to say that the following astract from one of the four articles Mike recently had us vote on describes an example of finding that third space?: The Rise and Fall of the U.S.-Dakota War Hanging Monument: Mediating Old-Settler Identity Through Two Expansive Cycles of Social Change Author: Rick Lybeck This article compares outcomes of two activity systems formed to memorialize the mass hanging of 38 Dakota men during the U.S.-Dakota War of 1862. Operating in 1911-1912, the first system failed to address tensions between its old-settler subject and progressive values taking shape in the community, especially regarding capital punishment. Informed by the first system's nonexpansive outcome and by native activism expressed during the Vietnam War era, the second system incorporated multiple community voices, resulting in an expansive commemorative outcome that continues today. Special attention is paid to the identity work one monument performed in both eras, mediating old-settler ideology through a violent local chronotope. The narrative of this dialog of contested narratives is hopeful, though, not having read the article, I sense blue hope. I probably got the term wrong, but you know what I mean. I hope. Henry I like mapping scenes in one context to analogous scenes in another. It?s line with fractal coherence. > On Feb 28, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > Haydi, > Yes, I also sense a convergence between my jargon which is a hybrid mixing > up of traditions traditions and what you have expressed as ways of acting > in the world. > I gave a rather long preamble because the notion of "freedom" seems central > to where we are heading potentially. I wanted to situate the two dominant > notions of freedom [negative freedom AS autonomy] and [positive freedom as > expression of authentic self] as contrasted with the third alternative > [freedom as situated]. > > Then I introduced what seems central for "situated freedom" is "spaces" or > "places" and showed how Heidegger's language of "fields" and "clearings" > are ways of describing this key concept of "metaphorically" imagined > spaces/places which have the possibility or potential to "come into form". > The ethical indicates the way or approach of orienting towards these not > yet but could be places as places of "situated freedom". It is in the act > of bringing "to life" [to actuality] these "living forms" that the subject > attains "freedom". Freedom is immanent within the crystallized and > sedimented forms as normative [Gadamer's prejudices or prejudgements] which > each of us "brings" to our conversations [spoken and written]. However, > though our prejudices is where we begin, [the always already existing] it > is through expanding our "horizons" within the already given and the > application of this expanded awareness through bringing into form potential > could be places/spaces that freedom emerges within these emerging third > spaces. > > If this commentary is read as "jargon" or "wordy"I am trying to understand > the relation of Vygotskian concepts as emerging situated concepts [living > thoughts] which were emerging in a historically situated time at the > opening of the 20th century and how these notions > of being-in-the-world were "conditioned" by multiple streams of thought > [crystalized, normative, and open-ended] which influenced the way scholars > asked and answered questions at that time and are now the > current "conditions" [as living words] for getting our bearings as we ask > new questions about how we "ought" to proceed AND what types or kinds of > spaces/places to create in which to be free. [and become certain "kinds" of > persons. > This way of questioning our "subject matter" is ALWAYS an ethical question > and returns us to our shared living world and how we are to "act" with > "ethical guidance" and with others in our expanding "horizons" of > possibility [the could be] > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > >> Sorry ! ... metamorphosed into an insect ... a la Koffka's "Metamorphasis" >> ! >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> *From:* Haydi Zulfei >> *To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> *Sent:* Saturday, 28 February 2015, 14:43:50 >> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: The world of freedom AND historical Ontology >> >> Larry, >> Truly speaking , I see nothing in the piece to disagree with . Just it's a >> matter of "jargon" which complicates a take for concepts as I read in >> Vygotsky's works . >> I fear being warned if I take it paragraph by paragraph . >> >> I can take your being in the world and your "historical ontology" as man >> wishing to live enthusiastically with hope and conscious behaviour and >> perseverance in removing obstacles in the way . Francine also clarified the >> difference between the two types of conscious behaviour. I became very >> happy when Francine exposed her view on Vygotsky . >> >> By "ideals" , I didn't mean the highly desired ; I meant the reflection of >> the real world onto the mind ; here it's a matter of drives and motives to >> life . Ethics come from social norms and what if alienation becomes the >> social indispensable norm . >> >> By "situated freedom" , I take it not something given , innate . But >> something you should fight for . I wouldn't like being in the world as >> Sartre and Camus liked to be . You ARE and you want to remain the so-called >> independent individual you have been and you're to be . What befalls the >> "stranger" , the "Outsider" is catastrophic . What might come from a human >> being who's been metamorphosed into an instinct because of social pressures >> , disasters , calamities , ... . What might come from a decrepit mutilated >> outcast who has to talk to his own shadow in solitude as our Hedaayat >> narrates in his "The Blind Owl" . >> >> "Stylized Mode of Being" comes to my rescue , however . >> >> 1. Thinking and Speech and the formation of concepts , the crowning of the >> word .2. True ! Man's wrestling with Nature , with the entities in the >> world through what comes out of dialogues and negotiations .3. We have a >> saying "The action-free knowledgeable man is a tree unyielding" . The true >> scholar finds the core problem in social life , resolves contradictions if >> any , builds up the personality according to the personal sense he gets >> from the society via hereditary temperaments . I cannot think of ethics as >> something additive or detached . Teach me the genetics of ethics , please . >> >> A good friend of ours , knowledgeable as he is , told me now it's not a >> matter of the beginnings . It's a matter of whether we are in the middle or >> the end . He is quite right . Now what is due is reciprocity , interaction >> and if you please , dialectics between the two . Each enriches the other , >> no linear movement . >> >> The finishing paragraphs give me clue to what I could take from what you >> wrote purposefully . Larry ! You write so much and so long and I have >> always tried to understand you ; now more comfortable with your script . >> Thank you so much ! >> Best Wishes >> From: Larry Purss >> >> >> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:55:20 >> Subject: [Xmca-l] The world of freedom AND historical Ontology >> >> Haydi and Francine have continued the conversation on the understanding of >> functions and the origin in actions and activity. >> Haydi commented, >> >> Man now had to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , >> to let them penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy >> needs because the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . >> >> I want to introduce a book by Robert Nichols titled "The World of Freedom: >> Heidegger, Foucault and the Politics of Historical Ontology". [2014] I got >> this book from Kindle for around $10. I bought it because of his clear >> statement on shifting to "ethical questions" [to have ideals that PENETRATE >> cycles of activities]. >> >> Robert is making a case that freedom can be "thought" through notions of >> "ontology" and "situated freedom" This way of formulating "freedom" >> critiques notions of freedom as understood in terms of "a property OF the >> individual subject. Robert is making the case that freedom is a "mode of >> being-in-the-world". He states that as a mode this "kind" of reciprocal >> interrelationship [as Simmel understands reciprocal] AND "stylized mode" of >> being. >> >> This being-in-the-world seeks to "disclose" the mutual interrelatedness of >> 3 aspects of being. >> 1] the acquisition of knowledge >> 2] the appearance of a domain of entities about which knowledge claims can >> be made >> and most centrally >> 3] the "ethical transformation" of the "subject" [matter] of knowledge. >> [see Gadamer for a notion of subject matter as such] >> >> Robert's book is an attempt to disclose this 3 part reciprocal >> interrelatedness through a "working out" of the possibilities and potential >> "projected" [ideally] within the worldly activities "of" disclosure. THIS >> activity "makes" a horizon of intelligibility possible and thus [as subject >> matter] the "field" or "clearing" ON WHICH self-recognition and >> self-formation take "place" >> >> To "be free" is NOT to detach oneself from this [subject matter] this >> "field" or "clearing" THROUGH an act of cognitive reflection. Robert >> Nichols is making a claim that the reciprocal interrelation of freedom and >> historical ontology does not disclose the subject matter by an act of >> "cognitive reflection" but to "be free" is to be in a "mode" of relation TO >> the "field" or "clearing". This means to "cultivate" a certain *ethical >> attitude of awareness WITHIN the activities of disclosure that constitute >> the ontological ground of the field or clearing ITSELF" * >> >> In other words, this ethical "style" or "mode" IS to "take care" of the >> "field or clearing" and through the care of this field one takes care of >> the "self" >> >> Haydi mentioned action and activity as primary. Robert's approach to these >> questions of "situated freedom" as occurring as activity and action "of >> disclosure" within "fields or clearings". I will circle back to the >> centrality of the imaginal in imagining these fields and clearings as >> coming into formation that enact fundamental "ethical styles or stances or >> positions" >> >> This is a kind of "third space" which honours activity that is >> fundamentally ethical enactments existing by "being-in-the-world" >> >> Robert Nichols, by bringing Heidegger and Foucault into conversation, >> believes he can offer clarity the activity of disclosing the interrelation >> of freedom and historical ontology as "acts of care" of the "field or >> clearing" which nurtures or cultivates this "subject matter" as such. >> >> I chose this book as I try to get clarity on the multiple notions of "third >> spaces" that require ethical stances or styles or modes to bring into >> potential being the ideal forms that have the "power" to change the >> pre-reflective crystliized sedimented formations we are born into.This is a >> "genre" within the theme of "situated freedom" brought into awareness >> through the reciprocal interrelation of having Heidegger and Foucault in >> conversation with Robert Nichols [as an act of disclosure] >> >> Larry >> >> >> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 11:11:43 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:11:43 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Shirin and Helen - Both of your remarks resonate with issues we are all thinking about. It resonates strongly with the Haydi/David interchange that David has summarized for us. I have been having similar thoughts regarding the destruction of the Eastern Ukraine. Is the task to reconcile Haydi and David's views of what is to be done? Both appear to require a lot of cooperative work if they are to be accomplished. mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Shirin Vossoughi < shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > Helena, > What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it > say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and > other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has > played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret > such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such > practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as > all the more democratic and free. > I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this > clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > brutal wars that led to this mess. > Shirin > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 11:22:15 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them soon. A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics involved considering that we were all male!). Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only matters that seem to matter today are making money. But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already have tenure...). -greg On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of Simmel's > approach to being human, > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > and a hopeful thinker. > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > century. > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a tradition > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, and > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its further > expansion. > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the dialectic. > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > interaction. > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" and > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social existence. > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great dualism > [between subject and object within modernity] > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's abstract > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > of Simmel's work: > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > application of these general polarities. > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most general > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a well > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > thought. > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships introduces a > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, but > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his viewpoint > goes beyond these comparisons. > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a fixed > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties of > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > unstructured wall. > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as "natural" > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide all > our activity. > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his cue > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a flaneur. > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the "movement" > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > and offered no final word. > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > 1] reciprocal effect > 2] form and content > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model of > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to fit > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within his > approach. > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] FOR > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off from > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the "as > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > But that also is for another post. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 11:22:15 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:22:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them soon. A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics involved considering that we were all male!). Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only matters that seem to matter today are making money. But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already have tenure...). -greg On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of Simmel's > approach to being human, > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > and a hopeful thinker. > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > century. > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a tradition > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, and > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its further > expansion. > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the dialectic. > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > interaction. > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" and > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social existence. > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great dualism > [between subject and object within modernity] > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's abstract > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > of Simmel's work: > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > application of these general polarities. > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most general > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a well > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > thought. > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships introduces a > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, but > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his viewpoint > goes beyond these comparisons. > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a fixed > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties of > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > unstructured wall. > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as "natural" > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide all > our activity. > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his cue > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a flaneur. > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the "movement" > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > and offered no final word. > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > 1] reciprocal effect > 2] form and content > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model of > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to fit > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within his > approach. > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] FOR > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off from > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the "as > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > But that also is for another post. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 11:36:09 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:36:09 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1641448845.334890.1425136177636.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1641448845.334890.1425136177636.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Haydi- This note has been followed by a long thread of productive exchanges arising from your discussion with David, so I will be brief, and be responsive in a more relevant way as questions arise. For me, the issue of "in the beginning of was the deed" arose first in connection with Dewey's critical analysis of the reflex arc concept (my university training is as a mid-20th century American behaviorist learning theorist - I am literally a third generation Skinnerian). That this critique came from as far back as Goethe for reasons broader than I could glimpse earlier in my life. So I really have no idea where you get the idea that " I thought you and the majority of good colleagues here think of Vygotsky as ignoring the act altogether." In the first declaration of the idea of what it is now acceptable to call a cultural-historical theory of activity in English, Luria declared that the ur act of human beings was to act upon the world in a manner that that incorporates resources inherited extrasomatically, what I thinking of as culture, our second nature. In that early statement, in THAT beginning, it was clearly that "in the beginning is the deed." The "cultural form of behavior" was the DEformation of "natural" direct reaching for the object(ive) by inclusion of extrasomatic stuff into an always hybrid act. Your discussion with David is so full or things to think about, and the annotations by Larry and others equally so, that I am left with more than enough to keep me absent minded! thanks. mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 7:09 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Mike, > > Maybe I've been speaking about something which is crystal-clear to you . I > thought you and the majority of good colleagues here think of Vygotsky as > ignoring the act altogether . It's always been my problem when reading > Vygotsky . At times , while reading , I reach a point where I can see quite > clearly , transparently that , as I said , Vygotsky took deed for granted . > His favorite province was to do research on how child's development finds > its way through conversion of functions a la benevolence of word and > broader conceptions plus nuances and interplay with deed . As Francine > talks so fluently and understandably about what Vygotsky intends to say > about each problem , I decided to see how she thinks about this point . I > think she came up with brilliant words in this respect . > > > And the tying with politics of the Day , I think , is the task before each > of us . Prior to your message , I read Miguel's invitation for an act of > social fibre . That , too , comes from the infiltration of capitalist rule > within even the tiniest corner of people's social life . Macro-social > anti-popular plannings of global transnational Capitalism requires our > collective talk and deed , union and unison so that life might traverse > more smoothly upon the path . Asia , Africa , Australia , Americas , far > from dealing with the dim points which are to be found in each nation's > history , should be on the alert against the threats which knows no > boundary and no interruptions . Thanks so much ! > > ------------------------------ > *From:* mike cole > *To:* Haydi Zulfei ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity" > *Sent:* Saturday, 28 February 2015, 2:34:52 > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] (no subject) > > I do not understand the central message of this note, Haydi. > mike > > > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > > > I said the dominant province of Vygotsky's work ; that means all through > his works , he uses terms and expressions which denote or connote "action" > : behaviour , operation , activity , work as labour proper and these are > not things which might escape your good attention . > > Then denial of action is denial of what Vygotsky has taken for granted . > > Vygotsky does have an unending love for word and literature , art in > general ; Then we should not take him as being guilty because he either did > not have time or he did not want to deal with the analysis of "action" . > > In his "Higher Psychological Functions" , he first talks about an > environment , he stresses that the environment necessitates use of tools > even for the months-old child , then he elucidates in details the influence > of speech upon each function . It's my assumption that Vygotsky implies > that when everything is in place , that is , when by the blessings of > speech , all functions are ripe and rich and replete with influences , then > the gown-up , adolescent , adult , man becomes ready to go fully for > transformations . And I don't mean : word ends , action begins ; no linear > advancement . through zigs and zags , heading towards will be the agenda . > > I ask : is that the case that you think that Vygotsky thought that with > rich , ripe psychological functions a la speech influence , man was > finished with everything to continue living ?? I'm afraid not ! Man now had > to take one very big step further , farther . To have ideals , to let them > penetrate cycles of activities to provide products to satisfy needs because > the richest , ripest talk will not satisfy life needs . > > Capitalism today though decaying , has opted for horrendous deeds and > wants to go ahead with these deeds through futile talks . Destructive > arsenals are not for defense as coming from rich beneficial talks ; they > won't wait for the United Nations' benevolent tribunes nor for the written > files therefrom , either . > > The United Actions of all the oppressed peoples of the world may wayward > another big disaster !! > and that requires already agreed upon talks ; otherwise no deed will be a > crowned one ! > Cheers > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 11:37:27 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:37:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This isn't a salon? We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! :-) mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Larry, > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > soon. > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > involved considering that we were all male!). > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already > have tenure...). > > -greg > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > Simmel's > > approach to being human, > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > > and a hopeful thinker. > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > century. > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > tradition > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > and > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > further > > expansion. > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > dialectic. > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > interaction. > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > and > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > existence. > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > dualism > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > abstract > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > > of Simmel's work: > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > > application of these general polarities. > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > general > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > well > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > > thought. > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > introduces a > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > but > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > viewpoint > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > fixed > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties > of > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > unstructured wall. > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > "natural" > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > all > > our activity. > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > cue > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > flaneur. > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > "movement" > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > > and offered no final word. > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > 1] reciprocal effect > > 2] form and content > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model > of > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > fit > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > his > > approach. > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > FOR > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > from > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > "as > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 11:37:27 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:37:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This isn't a salon? We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! :-) mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Larry, > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > soon. > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > involved considering that we were all male!). > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already > have tenure...). > > -greg > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > Simmel's > > approach to being human, > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker > > and a hopeful thinker. > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > century. > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > tradition > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > and > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > further > > expansion. > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > dialectic. > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > interaction. > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > and > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > existence. > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > dualism > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > abstract > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations > > of Simmel's work: > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from > > application of these general polarities. > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > general > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > well > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of > > thought. > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > introduces a > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > but > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > viewpoint > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > fixed > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties > of > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > unstructured wall. > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > "natural" > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > all > > our activity. > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > cue > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > flaneur. > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > "movement" > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content > > and offered no final word. > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > 1] reciprocal effect > > 2] form and content > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model > of > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > fit > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > his > > approach. > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > FOR > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > from > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > "as > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 11:48:49 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But my first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This should be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort we might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" that has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a brain scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is ongoing. mike On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Hi Francine ! > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > Think of this please : > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it would > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug is on > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the three-year-old and > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to their > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > signifies an object." > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is the > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > interpreted differently." > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not think of > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the picture > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it more > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to tell its > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a twelve-year-old > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: here > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > From: larry smolucha > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > Message from Francine" > > Hi Larry, > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > preschoolers) > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, > and > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > verbal guidance > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > (i.e., become > higher functions). > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > Chaiklin calls > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > disciplines > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > thinking, > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question > arises: > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > direct > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > acquired > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's > use of > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > awareness > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > follows a > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > psychological > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > terms can be > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate > when > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is > a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > Meichenbaum), that uses > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk > to help the > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that > different > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > systems. > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction > means > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > individual - > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > (dialectics) and external conversations > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > learning is that > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more > than > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > individuals > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. > For, example > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > metaphorical > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > > > Francine, > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > "reciprocal > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. Is > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > imagine > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your > > statement: > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > consciously > > directing > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > creativity. > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > (such > > as imagination > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > systems" > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha > > wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone > of > > > proximal > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > Vygotsky, > > > however, > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > psychological functions > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > through > > > the internalization > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > psychological (or mental) > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, > such > > > as scientific > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete > and > > > formal operational > > > thinking. > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental > model > > > produces > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > preordained > > > by a particular > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. > By > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > becomes > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > consciously > > > directing > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > creativity. > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > (such > > > as imagination > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > systems. > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > brain-imaging > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > "Neuropsychological > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > Creativity. > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > Larry > > > and I expand > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > including > > > Vygotsky's > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > "functions". > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > development > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age > period > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could > not be > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > interaction, > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > existence > > > and > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > "crystallized" > > > or > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > structures. > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > subjectively > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > social > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the > goal > > > or > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > universally > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > function > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), > even > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > these > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > functions > > > are > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > [page 7] > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > which > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > proximal > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > does > > > not > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > psychological > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > development > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > developed in > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts > > > [which > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in > > > order > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > [verbal > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > structural > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One > can > > > say > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > historically > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > school age > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > intellectual > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of > the > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of development > > > when > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > questioning? > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > "what > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its > "new" > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > > > clarity > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding > the > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:04:02 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes Mike, excellent point! But I feel that the affordances of the medium in which this salon exists are quite different from those of salons that involve bodily co-presence. I think mood is the missing factor. Yes, there is mood here. (and where is "here"?). But it is muted. And the mood of a listserve is never quite so coherent as the mood of an actual room. (and there I should simply have said that the mood of an actual room is "relatively less incoherent" - since there is seldom, if ever, perfect coherence of mood across actors in a room). -greg On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > This isn't a salon? > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > :-) > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > Larry, > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > > soon. > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > already > > have tenure...). > > > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > Simmel's > > > approach to being human, > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > thinker > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > century. > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > "Form > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > tradition > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > > and > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > reception > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > of > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > the > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > further > > > expansion. > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > dialectic. > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > approach > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > theory. > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > interaction. > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > > and > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > world > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > existence. > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > dualism > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > abstract > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > formulations > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > limited > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > from > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > general > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such > as > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > > well > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > dualities, > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > of > > > thought. > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > introduces a > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between > on > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > > but > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > are > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > viewpoint > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > > fixed > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > properties > > of > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > distances - > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > dualities > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > Simmel > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > in a > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > representing > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > > unstructured wall. > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > "natural" > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > This > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > > all > > > our activity. > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > > cue > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > roving > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > flaneur. > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > Simmel's > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > "movement" > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > content > > > and offered no final word. > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > model > > of > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > enactments. > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > > fit > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than > a > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > context. > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > > his > > > approach. > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > > FOR > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > > from > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > > "as > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:04:02 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes Mike, excellent point! But I feel that the affordances of the medium in which this salon exists are quite different from those of salons that involve bodily co-presence. I think mood is the missing factor. Yes, there is mood here. (and where is "here"?). But it is muted. And the mood of a listserve is never quite so coherent as the mood of an actual room. (and there I should simply have said that the mood of an actual room is "relatively less incoherent" - since there is seldom, if ever, perfect coherence of mood across actors in a room). -greg On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > This isn't a salon? > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > :-) > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > Larry, > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > > soon. > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > already > > have tenure...). > > > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > Simmel's > > > approach to being human, > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > thinker > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > century. > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > "Form > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > tradition > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > > and > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > reception > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > of > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > the > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > further > > > expansion. > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > dialectic. > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > approach > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > theory. > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > interaction. > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > > and > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > world > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > existence. > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > dualism > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > abstract > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > formulations > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > limited > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > from > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > general > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such > as > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > > well > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > dualities, > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > of > > > thought. > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > introduces a > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between > on > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > > but > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > are > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > viewpoint > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > > fixed > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > properties > > of > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > distances - > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > dualities > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > Simmel > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > in a > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > representing > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > > unstructured wall. > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > "natural" > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > This > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > > all > > > our activity. > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > > cue > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > roving > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > flaneur. > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > Simmel's > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > "movement" > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > content > > > and offered no final word. > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > model > > of > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > enactments. > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > > fit > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than > a > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > context. > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > > his > > > approach. > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > > FOR > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > > from > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > > "as > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:04:29 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:04:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5983910C-4E9E-49FD-A757-F80806F29F2C@gmail.com> At the risk of misconstruing the issue or of boring you all, I wonder if the Dakota hanging narrative, from among the four abstracts Mike asked us to vote on is relevant here. Henry > On Feb 28, 2015, at 12:11 PM, mike cole wrote:, > > Shirin and Helen - Both of your remarks resonate with issues we are all > thinking about. It resonates strongly with the Haydi/David interchange that > David has summarized for us. > > I have been having similar thoughts regarding the destruction of the > Eastern Ukraine. > > Is the task to reconcile Haydi and David's views of what is to be done? > Both appear to require a lot of cooperative work if they are to be > accomplished. > > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Shirin Vossoughi < > shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Helena, >> What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it >> say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and >> other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has >> played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this >> story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east >> narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret >> such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such >> practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech >> tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as >> all the more democratic and free. >> I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this >> clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the >> brutal wars that led to this mess. >> Shirin >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen >> wrote: >> >>> http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From helenaworthen@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:10:21 2015 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:10:21 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6D724E5C-5B20-4378-822A-C260092F2624@gmail.com> Shirin, I put this link up on xmca because I trust this list, which is made up of people from all over the world who speak many languages, and who manage to understand each other in spite of that (or because of that, perhaps), to be able to interpret what it portrays. I would expect there to be many different responses to it, but that the sum of the responses would be as good as I could read anywhere. It's like a whole lot of things that have happened in the last 15 (actually, 50 plus) years in that I am not up to interpreting it by myself. H Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Feb 28, 2015, at 10:16 AM, Shirin Vossoughi wrote: > Helena, > What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it > say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and > other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has > played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret > such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such > practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as > all the more democratic and free. > I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this > clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > brutal wars that led to this mess. > Shirin > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > >> http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 12:07:53 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:07:53 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: <776065615.2216007.1425067778921.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <776065615.2216007.1425067778921.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Below is a brief passage from Luria's *Making of mind* that is perhaps relevant to the discussion of function. Easies to hand, if not most comprehensive. mike ------------------------------- Most investigators who have examined the problem of cortical localization have understood the term function to mean the "function of a particular tissue." For example, it is perfectly natural to consider that the secretion of bile is a function of the liver and the secretion of insulin is a function of the pancreas. It is equally logical to regard the perception of light as a function of the photosensitive elements of the retina and the highly specialized neurons of the visual cortex connected with them. However, this definition does not meet every use of the term function. When we speak of the "function of respiration," this clearly cannot be understood as a function of a particular tissue. The ultimate object of respiration is to supply oxygen to the alveoli of the lungs to diffuse it through the walls of the alveoli into the blood. The whole of this process is carried out, not as a simple function of a particular tissue, but rather as a complete functional system, embodying many components belonging to different levels of the secretory, motor, and nervous apparatus. Such a "functional system," the term introduced and developed by P. K. Anokhln in 1935, differs not only in the complexity of its structure but also in the mobility of its component parts. The original task of respiration_restoration of the disturbed homeostasis_and its final result_transportation of oxygen to the alveoli of the lung, followed by its absorption into the blood stream_obviously remain invariant. However, the way in which this task is performed may vary considerably. For instance, if the diaphragm, the principal group of muscles working during respiration, ceases to act, the intercostal muscles are brought into play, but if for some reason those muscles are impaired, the muscles of the larynx are mobilized and the animal or person begins to swallow air, which then reaches the alveoli of the lung by a completely different route. The presence of an invariant task, performed by variable mechanisms, which bring the process to a constant invariant conclusion, is one of the basic features distinguishing the work of every "functional system." The second distinguishing feature is the complex composition of the functional system, which always includes a series of afferent (adjusting) and efferent (effector) impulses. This combination can be illustrated with reference to the function of movement, which has been analyzed in detail by the Soviet physiologist_mathematician N. A. Bernshtein. The movements of a person intending to change his position in space, to strike at a certain point, or to perform a certain action can never take place simply by means of efferent, motor impulses. Since the locomotor apparatus, with its movable joints, has many degrees of freedom because different groups of articulations participate in the movement, and since every stage of the movement changes the initial tonus of the muscles, movement is in principle uncontrollable simply by efferent impulses. For a movement to take place, there must be constant correction of the initiated movement by afferent impulses, which give information about the position of the moving limb in space and the change in muscle tone. This complex structure of locomotion is required to satisfy the fundamental conditions preserving the invariance of the task and its performance by variable means. The fact that every movement has the character of a complex functional system and that the elements performing it may be interchangeable in character is clear because the same result can be achieved by totally different methods. (p. 123-124 of the 2010 re-issue of the *Making of mind*) On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Haydi Zulfei wrote: > Francine, > I quite agree that it's the development of the word meaning and its > influence upon the organic , natural functions that causes them to be > conscious and get running on the right appropriate most helpful track , > that is , when they are , as Vygotsky says , crowned . What causes me to go > further is that this is not the end of a process which life requires . When > functions become conscious , rich with benevolence of speech , there > appears the domain of acts ; acts which formerly were carried out blindly > because of the natural organic instincts but now are being carried out > correspondingly as conscious , willful , volitional ones for which reason > could be erected to transform . Words and broader conceptions , as in their > nature , are defective to transform the world ; they could transform the > mind and the psyche . Dialectics and interactions between the two are due , > too . > Regards > From: larry smolucha > To: Haydi Zulfei > Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:19:33 > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > #yiv2080325588 #yiv2080325588 --.yiv2080325588hmmessage > P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv2080325588 > body.yiv2080325588hmmessage{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}#yiv2080325588 > Message from Francine: > > Haydi, > > Are you saying that the central concept in Vygotsky's theory is the > development > of word meaning, and not the development of higher psychological functions? > > My understanding of Vygotsky's writings does not exclude the importance of > the > development of word meaning. Does you perspective disregard the > development of > consciously directed higher psychological functions? > > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:07:51 +0000 > > From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > > > Hi Francine ! > > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > > Think of this please : > > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it would > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug is on > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the three-year-old and > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to their > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > signifies an object." > > > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is the > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > interpreted differently." > > > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not think of > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the picture > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it more > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to tell its > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a twelve-year-old > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: here > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > > From: larry smolucha > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > > > Message from Francine" > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions > are > > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. > > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > preschoolers) > > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, > and > > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > verbal guidance > > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously > directed > > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > (i.e., become > > higher functions). > > > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > Chaiklin calls > > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > disciplines > > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > thinking, > > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting > question arises: > > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > direct > > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > acquired > > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in > Vygotsky's use of > > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > awareness > > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > follows a > > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > psychological > > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > terms can be > > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate > when > > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy > is a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > Meichenbaum), that uses > > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's > self-talk to help the > > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that > different > > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > systems. > > > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal > interaction means > > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > individual - > > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > (dialectics) and external conversations > > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > learning is that > > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more > than > > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal > > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > individuals > > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others > acquire. For, example > > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > metaphorical > > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > > > > > Francine, > > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > "reciprocal > > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. > Is > > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > imagine > > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both > understandings > > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your > > > statement: > > > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > consciously > > > directing > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > creativity. > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > (such > > > as imagination > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > systems" > > > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha < > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and > zone of > > > > proximal > > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > Vygotsky, > > > > however, > > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > > psychological functions > > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > through > > > > the internalization > > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > > psychological (or mental) > > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, > such > > > > as scientific > > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete > and > > > > formal operational > > > > thinking. > > > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental > model > > > > produces > > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > preordained > > > > by a particular > > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in > which > > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain > ages]. By > > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > becomes > > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > consciously > > > > directing > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > > creativity. > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > (such > > > > as imagination > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > > systems. > > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > > brain-imaging > > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > > "Neuropsychological > > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > > Creativity. > > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > Larry > > > > and I expand > > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > including > > > > Vygotsky's > > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > "functions". > > > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > > development > > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age > period > > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could > not be > > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > > interaction, > > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > existence > > > > and > > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > "crystallized" > > > > or > > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > structures. > > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > subjectively > > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > social > > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is > the goal > > > > or > > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > universally > > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > function > > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not > reflecting a > > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic > sources), even > > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > these > > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > functions > > > > are > > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > [page 7] > > > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > which > > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > proximal > > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > does > > > > not > > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > psychological > > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > development > > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > developed in > > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract > concepts > > > > [which > > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first > in > > > > order > > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > [verbal > > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > > structural > > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. > One can > > > > say > > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > > historically > > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > school age > > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with > academic > > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > > intellectual > > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation > of the > > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which > are > > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of > development > > > > when > > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > > questioning? > > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > "what > > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its > "new" > > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" > of > > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > > > > clarity > > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for > understanding the > > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 12:10:13 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:10:13 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm. have to go back and look at the people blasting Simmel for his salon- ness. Import people like Adorno and Benjamin. At least most xmc-ites can claim to be petty bourgeois and prattling, can't we? mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Yes Mike, excellent point! > But I feel that the affordances of the medium in which this salon exists > are quite different from those of salons that involve bodily co-presence. > I think mood is the missing factor. > Yes, there is mood here. (and where is "here"?). But it is muted. And the > mood of a listserve is never quite so coherent as the mood of an actual > room. > > (and there I should simply have said that the mood of an actual room is > "relatively less incoherent" - since there is seldom, if ever, perfect > coherence of mood across actors in a room). > > -greg > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > This isn't a salon? > > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > > :-) > > mike > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Larry, > > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to > them > > > soon. > > > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder > about > > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as > "Madam > > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender > politics > > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to > give > > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > > already > > > have tenure...). > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > > Simmel's > > > > approach to being human, > > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > > thinker > > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding > of > > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > > century. > > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within > Simmel's > > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > > "Form > > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. > The > > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis > located > > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > > tradition > > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, > Hegel, > > > and > > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > > reception > > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > > of > > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > > the > > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > > further > > > > expansion. > > > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > > dialectic. > > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > > approach > > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > > theory. > > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > > interaction. > > > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on > "interrelations" > > > and > > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of > dialectical > > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > > world > > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational > assumptions > > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > > existence. > > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > > dualism > > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > > abstract > > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > > formulations > > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > > limited > > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > > from > > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > > general > > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - > such > > as > > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > > > well > > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal > the > > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and > by > > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" > and > > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns > of > > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > > dualities, > > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > > of > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > > introduces a > > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension > between > > on > > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other > hand a > > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is > present, > > > but > > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of > hope. > > > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > > are > > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can > be > > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified > in > > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, > though > > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > > viewpoint > > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > > > fixed > > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > > properties > > > of > > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > > distances - > > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > > dualities > > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > > Simmel > > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > > in a > > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > > representing > > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does > the > > > > unstructured wall. > > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > > "natural" > > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > > This > > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can > guide > > > all > > > > our activity. > > > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and > not > > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking > his > > > cue > > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > > roving > > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > > flaneur. > > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > > Simmel's > > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > > "movement" > > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > > content > > > > and offered no final word. > > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > > model > > > of > > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > > enactments. > > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized > to > > > fit > > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more > than > > a > > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. > His > > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > > context. > > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure > within > > > his > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further > Simmel's > > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a > hunger] > > > FOR > > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > > > from > > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of > the > > > "as > > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:11:11 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:11:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Greg, Alan Janik and Stephen Toulmin have written a book "Wittgenstein's Vienna" which is there approach to historical ontology. They wrote this book as an attempt to get "behind" the stangle hold of "disciplinary" silos recently discussed here. They are trying to re-create the "atmosphere" or "style" where scholars, journalists, scientists, artists were all reading and discussing the same topics and expanding each others horizons. And yes, this site does offer that "spaces" for multiple perspectives to challenge and liberate our prejudices. The book on Simmel with the title "Cultivating Minds" I believe "captures" the approach of salon culture to generating "rich complex developing "themes" which may morph into "meanings" [as they become crystalized] Larry On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:37 AM, mike cole wrote: > This isn't a salon? > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > :-) > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > Larry, > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > > soon. > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > already > > have tenure...). > > > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > Simmel's > > > approach to being human, > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > thinker > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > century. > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > "Form > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > tradition > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > > and > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > reception > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > of > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > the > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > further > > > expansion. > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > dialectic. > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > approach > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > theory. > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > interaction. > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > > and > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > world > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > existence. > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > dualism > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > abstract > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > formulations > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > limited > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > from > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > general > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such > as > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > > well > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > dualities, > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > of > > > thought. > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > introduces a > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between > on > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > > but > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > are > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > viewpoint > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > > fixed > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > properties > > of > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > distances - > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > dualities > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > Simmel > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > in a > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > representing > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > > unstructured wall. > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > "natural" > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > This > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > > all > > > our activity. > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > > cue > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > roving > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > flaneur. > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > Simmel's > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > "movement" > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > content > > > and offered no final word. > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > model > > of > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > enactments. > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > > fit > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than > a > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > context. > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > > his > > > approach. > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > > FOR > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > > from > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > > "as > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:11:11 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:11:11 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Greg, Alan Janik and Stephen Toulmin have written a book "Wittgenstein's Vienna" which is there approach to historical ontology. They wrote this book as an attempt to get "behind" the stangle hold of "disciplinary" silos recently discussed here. They are trying to re-create the "atmosphere" or "style" where scholars, journalists, scientists, artists were all reading and discussing the same topics and expanding each others horizons. And yes, this site does offer that "spaces" for multiple perspectives to challenge and liberate our prejudices. The book on Simmel with the title "Cultivating Minds" I believe "captures" the approach of salon culture to generating "rich complex developing "themes" which may morph into "meanings" [as they become crystalized] Larry On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:37 AM, mike cole wrote: > This isn't a salon? > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > :-) > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > Larry, > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > > soon. > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > already > > have tenure...). > > > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > Simmel's > > > approach to being human, > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > thinker > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > century. > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > "Form > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > tradition > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > > and > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > reception > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > of > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > the > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > further > > > expansion. > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > dialectic. > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > approach > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > theory. > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > interaction. > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > > and > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > world > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > existence. > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > dualism > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > abstract > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > formulations > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > limited > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > from > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > general > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such > as > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > > well > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > dualities, > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > of > > > thought. > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > introduces a > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between > on > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > > but > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > are > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > viewpoint > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > > fixed > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > properties > > of > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > distances - > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > dualities > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > Simmel > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > in a > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > representing > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > > unstructured wall. > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > "natural" > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > This > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > > all > > > our activity. > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > > cue > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > roving > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > flaneur. > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > Simmel's > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > "movement" > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > content > > > and offered no final word. > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > model > > of > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > enactments. > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > > fit > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than > a > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > context. > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > > his > > > approach. > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > > FOR > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > > from > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > > "as > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:15:16 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:15:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, And we don?t have to dress up. I?m still in my jammies (pajamas) here in snowy Albuquerque. Shall I send some snow your way, or would you rather have Rob?s rain? Henbry > On Feb 28, 2015, at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > This isn't a salon? > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > :-) > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Larry, >> Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the >> Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them >> soon. >> >> A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about >> the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an >> impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because >> when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam >> Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics >> involved considering that we were all male!). >> >> Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give >> an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only >> matters that seem to matter today are making money. >> >> But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already >> have tenure...). >> >> -greg >> >> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of >> Simmel's >>> approach to being human, >>> I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker >>> and a hopeful thinker. >>> It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of >>> "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th >>> century. >>> There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are >>> re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's >>> scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form >>> and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The >>> authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. >>> >>> They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located >>> within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a >> tradition >>> with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, >> and >>> Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception >>> and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of >>> the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the >>> authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its >> further >>> expansion. >>> >>> The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the >> dialectic. >>> This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". >>> Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach >>> and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. >>> Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of >>> interaction. >>> >>> This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" >> and >>> on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical >>> "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND >>> unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world >>> as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions >>> include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". >>> Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological >>> realms as dialectically related between nature and human social >> existence. >>> This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great >> dualism >>> [between subject and object within modernity] >>> >>> Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's >> abstract >>> conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations >>> of Simmel's work: >>> >>> 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited >>> number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a >>> potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from >>> application of these general polarities. >>> >>> 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most >> general >>> to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as >>> space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a >> well >>> known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the >>> fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by >>> presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. >>> >>> 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that >>> operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as >>> syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and >>> "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of >>> interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the >>> reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, >>> or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, >>> according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of >>> thought. >>> >>> 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships >> introduces a >>> related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on >>> the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a >>> potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human >>> "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly >>> dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, >> but >>> this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. >>> >>> For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from >>> polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are >>> "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be >>> summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no >>> endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in >>> myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though >>> sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his >> viewpoint >>> goes beyond these comparisons. >>> >>> "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a >> fixed >>> meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The >>> subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] >>> Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties >> of >>> form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - >>> and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities >>> of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and >>> separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel >>> uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For >>> example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a >>> decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing >>> the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger >>> feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the >>> unstructured wall. >>> Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate >>> within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as >> "natural" >>> and the other side as "humanly constructed". >>> For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This >>> notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide >> all >>> our activity. >>> >>> The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not >>> systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. >>> Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his >> cue >>> from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving >>> sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a >> flaneur. >>> Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" >>> Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's >>> participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. >>> >>> What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the >> "movement" >>> of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and >>> relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content >>> and offered no final word. >>> Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of >>> 1] reciprocal effect >>> 2] form and content >>> >>> Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model >> of >>> modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. >>> Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to >> fit >>> into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a >>> sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His >>> context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. >>> [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] >>> His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a >>> dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within >> his >>> approach. >>> >>> Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's >>> notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] >> FOR >>> LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off >> from >>> the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the >> "as >>> if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. >>> >>> But that also is for another post. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 12:15:12 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:15:12 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: <5983910C-4E9E-49FD-A757-F80806F29F2C@gmail.com> References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> <5983910C-4E9E-49FD-A757-F80806F29F2C@gmail.com> Message-ID: There certainly are relevant connections between that article and the media-ized representations of the Other, Henry. There is a book review of Ilyenkov by David Bakhurst that speaks directly to the discussion of the ideal, and others of relevance to xmca concerns. Which brings up the topic of zero-cost hi impact number academic journals that would provide broader access to MCA contents. A topic I am happty to leave to the next generation to solve. mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > At the risk of misconstruing the issue or of boring you all, I wonder if > the Dakota hanging narrative, from among the four abstracts Mike asked us > to vote on is relevant here. > Henry > > > On Feb 28, 2015, at 12:11 PM, mike cole wrote:, > > > > Shirin and Helen - Both of your remarks resonate with issues we are all > > thinking about. It resonates strongly with the Haydi/David interchange > that > > David has summarized for us. > > > > I have been having similar thoughts regarding the destruction of the > > Eastern Ukraine. > > > > Is the task to reconcile Haydi and David's views of what is to be done? > > Both appear to require a lot of cooperative work if they are to be > > accomplished. > > > > mike > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Shirin Vossoughi < > > shirinvossoughi@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Helena, > >> What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does > it > >> say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq > and > >> other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US > has > >> played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > >> story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > >> narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to > interpret > >> such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, > such > >> practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > >> tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted > as > >> all the more democratic and free. > >> I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in > this > >> clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > >> brutal wars that led to this mess. > >> Shirin > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen < > helenaworthen@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > >>> > >>> > >>> Helena Worthen > >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:20:58 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:20:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: <776065615.2216007.1425067778921.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, Speaking to your other post, it seems that this quote from Luria resonates quite well with Dewey's "there is no such thing as 'the eye', there is only the seeing". no? (full quote below). -greg "In the act of vision, for example, the thing that seems nearest to us, that which claims continuously our attention, is the eye itself. We thus come to abstract the eye from all special acts of seeing; we make the eye the essential thing in sight, and conceive of the circumstances of vision as indeed circumstances; as more or less accidental concomitants of the permanent eye. Of course, there is no such thing as the eye in general; in reality, the actual fact is always an act of seeing, and the 'circumstances' are just as 'necessary' and 'essential' parts of the activity as is the eye itself. Or more truly, there is no such thing as this 'eye'; there is only the seeing" (p. 47 - The early works, 1882-1898: 1893-1894. Early essays. from Self-realization as the Moral Ideal.) On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 1:07 PM, mike cole wrote: > Below is a brief passage from Luria's *Making of mind* that is perhaps > relevant to the discussion of function. Easies to hand, if not most > comprehensive. > mike > ------------------------------- > > Most investigators who have examined the problem of cortical localization > have understood the term function to mean the "function of a particular > tissue." For example, it is perfectly natural to consider that the > secretion of bile is a function of the liver and the secretion of insulin > is a function of the pancreas. It is equally logical to regard the > perception of light as a function of the photosensitive elements of the > retina and the highly specialized neurons of the visual cortex connected > with them. However, this definition does not meet every use of the term > function. > > > > When we speak of the "function of respiration," this clearly cannot be > understood as a function of a particular tissue. The ultimate object of > respiration is to supply oxygen to the alveoli of the lungs to diffuse it > through the walls of the alveoli into the blood. The whole of this process > is carried out, not as a simple function of a particular tissue, but rather > as a complete functional system, embodying many components belonging to > different levels of the secretory, motor, and nervous apparatus. Such a > "functional system," the term introduced and developed by P. K. Anokhln in > 1935, differs not only in the complexity of its structure but also in the > mobility of its component parts. The original task of > respiration_restoration of the disturbed homeostasis_and its final > result_transportation of oxygen to the alveoli of the lung, followed by its > absorption into the blood stream_obviously remain invariant. However, the > way in which this task is performed may vary considerably. For instance, if > the diaphragm, the principal group of muscles working during respiration, > ceases to act, the intercostal muscles are brought into play, but if for > some reason those muscles are impaired, the muscles of the larynx are > mobilized and the animal or person begins to swallow air, which then > reaches the alveoli of the lung by a completely different route. The > presence of an invariant task, performed by variable mechanisms, which > bring the process to a constant invariant conclusion, is one of the basic > features distinguishing the work of every "functional system." > > > > The second distinguishing feature is the complex composition of the > functional system, which always includes a series of afferent (adjusting) > and efferent (effector) impulses. This combination can be illustrated with > reference to the function of movement, which has been analyzed in detail by > the Soviet physiologist_mathematician N. A. Bernshtein. The movements of a > person intending to change his position in space, to strike at a certain > point, or to perform a certain action can never take place simply by means > of efferent, motor impulses. Since the locomotor apparatus, with its > movable joints, has many degrees of freedom because different groups of > articulations participate in the movement, and since every stage of the > movement changes the initial tonus of the muscles, movement is in principle > uncontrollable simply by efferent impulses. For a movement to take place, > there must be constant correction of the initiated movement by afferent > impulses, which give information about the position of the moving limb in > space and the change in muscle tone. This complex structure of locomotion > is required to satisfy the fundamental conditions preserving the invariance > of the task and its performance by variable means. The fact that every > movement has the character of a complex functional system and that the > elements performing it may be interchangeable in character is clear because > the same result can be achieved by totally different methods. > > (p. 123-124 of the 2010 re-issue of the *Making of mind*) > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Haydi Zulfei > > wrote: > > > Francine, > > I quite agree that it's the development of the word meaning and its > > influence upon the organic , natural functions that causes them to be > > conscious and get running on the right appropriate most helpful track , > > that is , when they are , as Vygotsky says , crowned . What causes me to > go > > further is that this is not the end of a process which life requires . > When > > functions become conscious , rich with benevolence of speech , there > > appears the domain of acts ; acts which formerly were carried out blindly > > because of the natural organic instincts but now are being carried out > > correspondingly as conscious , willful , volitional ones for which reason > > could be erected to transform . Words and broader conceptions , as in > their > > nature , are defective to transform the world ; they could transform the > > mind and the psyche . Dialectics and interactions between the two are > due , > > too . > > Regards > > From: larry smolucha > > To: Haydi Zulfei > > Sent: Friday, 27 February 2015, 21:19:33 > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > #yiv2080325588 #yiv2080325588 --.yiv2080325588hmmessage > > P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}#yiv2080325588 > > > body.yiv2080325588hmmessage{font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;}#yiv2080325588 > > Message from Francine: > > > > Haydi, > > > > Are you saying that the central concept in Vygotsky's theory is the > > development > > of word meaning, and not the development of higher psychological > functions? > > > > My understanding of Vygotsky's writings does not exclude the importance > of > > the > > development of word meaning. Does you perspective disregard the > > development of > > consciously directed higher psychological functions? > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:07:51 +0000 > > > From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > Hi Francine ! > > > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > > > Think of this please : > > > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it > would > > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug is > on > > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the three-year-old > and > > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to their > > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, > > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary > > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an > object; > > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > > signifies an object." > > > > > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal > contradiction > > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story > > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It > is > > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is > the > > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > > interpreted differently." > > > > > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to > me > > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we > > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not think > of > > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the > picture > > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it > more > > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to tell > its > > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a > twelve-year-old > > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: > here > > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free > is > > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical > > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > > > > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > > > From: larry smolucha > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > Message from Francine" > > > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > > > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions > > are > > > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are > spontaneous. > > > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > > preschoolers) > > > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, > imagination, > > and > > > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > > verbal guidance > > > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously > > directed > > > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > > (i.e., become > > > higher functions). > > > > > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > > Chaiklin calls > > > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > > disciplines > > > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > > thinking, > > > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting > > question arises: > > > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > > direct > > > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > > acquired > > > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in > > Vygotsky's use of > > > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > > awareness > > > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > > > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > > follows a > > > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > > > > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > > psychological > > > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > > terms can be > > > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more > appropriate > > when > > > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy > > is a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > > Meichenbaum), that uses > > > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's > > self-talk to help the > > > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say > that > > different > > > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > > systems. > > > > > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal > > interaction means > > > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > > individual - > > > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > > (dialectics) and external conversations > > > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > > > > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > > learning is that > > > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something > more > > than > > > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of > proximal > > > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > > individuals > > > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others > > acquire. For, example > > > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > > metaphorical > > > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might > be > > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > > > Francine, > > > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > > "reciprocal > > > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. > > Is > > > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as > expressing > > > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > > imagine > > > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both > > understandings > > > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, > your > > > > statement: > > > > > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > consciously > > > > directing > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > > creativity. > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > > (such > > > > as imagination > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > > systems" > > > > > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a > "zone" > > > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha < > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and > > zone of > > > > > proximal > > > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > > Vygotsky, > > > > > however, > > > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > > > psychological functions > > > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > > through > > > > > the internalization > > > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > > > psychological (or mental) > > > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract > thinking, > > such > > > > > as scientific > > > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian > concrete > > and > > > > > formal operational > > > > > thinking. > > > > > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's > developmental > > model > > > > > produces > > > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > > preordained > > > > > by a particular > > > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in > > which > > > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain > > ages]. By > > > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > > becomes > > > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > consciously > > > > > directing > > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows > for > > > > > creativity. > > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental > functions > > (such > > > > > as imagination > > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as > psychological > > > > > systems. > > > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > > > brain-imaging > > > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > > > "Neuropsychological > > > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > > > Creativity. > > > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > > Larry > > > > > and I expand > > > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > > including > > > > > Vygotsky's > > > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > > "functions". > > > > > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > > > development > > > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next > age > > period > > > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that > could > > not be > > > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > > > interaction, > > > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > > existence > > > > > and > > > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > > "crystallized" > > > > > or > > > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > > structures. > > > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > > subjectively > > > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > > social > > > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is > > the goal > > > > > or > > > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist > in > > > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > > universally > > > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > > function > > > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not > > reflecting a > > > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic > > sources), even > > > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > > these > > > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > > functions > > > > > are > > > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > > [page 7] > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > > which > > > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present > age", > > > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > > proximal > > > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > > does > > > > > not > > > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > > psychological > > > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > > development > > > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > > developed in > > > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract > > concepts > > > > > [which > > > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop > first > > in > > > > > order > > > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > > [verbal > > > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of > this > > > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > > > structural > > > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. > > One can > > > > > say > > > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > > > historically > > > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > > school age > > > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with > > academic > > > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation > > of the > > > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which > > are > > > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these > normative > > > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of > > development > > > > > when > > > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > > > questioning? > > > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > > "what > > > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and > its > > "new" > > > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" > > of > > > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article > brought > > > > > clarity > > > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for > > understanding the > > > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Sat Feb 28 12:22:02 2015 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 20:22:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F2236A.40006@open.ac.uk> He's welcome to the rain. We've had more than enough of it today :-( On 28/02/2015 20:15, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > And we don?t have to dress up. I?m still in my jammies (pajamas) here in snowy Albuquerque. Shall I send some snow your way, or would you rather have Rob?s rain? > Henbry > >> On Feb 28, 2015, at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> This isn't a salon? >> We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! >> :-) >> mike >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> Larry, >>> Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the >>> Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them >>> soon. >>> >>> A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about >>> the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an >>> impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because >>> when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam >>> Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics >>> involved considering that we were all male!). >>> >>> Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give >>> an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only >>> matters that seem to matter today are making money. >>> >>> But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already >>> have tenure...). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>>> This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of >>> Simmel's >>>> approach to being human, >>>> I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker >>>> and a hopeful thinker. >>>> It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of >>>> "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th >>>> century. >>>> There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are >>>> re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's >>>> scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form >>>> and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The >>>> authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. >>>> >>>> They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located >>>> within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a >>> tradition >>>> with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, >>> and >>>> Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception >>>> and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of >>>> the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the >>>> authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its >>> further >>>> expansion. >>>> >>>> The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the >>> dialectic. >>>> This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". >>>> Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach >>>> and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. >>>> Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of >>>> interaction. >>>> >>>> This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" >>> and >>>> on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical >>>> "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND >>>> unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world >>>> as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions >>>> include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". >>>> Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological >>>> realms as dialectically related between nature and human social >>> existence. >>>> This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great >>> dualism >>>> [between subject and object within modernity] >>>> >>>> Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's >>> abstract >>>> conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations >>>> of Simmel's work: >>>> >>>> 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited >>>> number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a >>>> potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from >>>> application of these general polarities. >>>> >>>> 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most >>> general >>>> to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as >>>> space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a >>> well >>>> known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the >>>> fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by >>>> presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. >>>> >>>> 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that >>>> operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as >>>> syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and >>>> "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of >>>> interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the >>>> reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, >>>> or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, >>>> according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of >>>> thought. >>>> >>>> 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships >>> introduces a >>>> related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on >>>> the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a >>>> potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human >>>> "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly >>>> dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, >>> but >>>> this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. >>>> >>>> For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from >>>> polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are >>>> "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be >>>> summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no >>>> endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in >>>> myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though >>>> sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his >>> viewpoint >>>> goes beyond these comparisons. >>>> >>>> "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a >>> fixed >>>> meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The >>>> subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] >>>> Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties >>> of >>>> form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - >>>> and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities >>>> of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and >>>> separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel >>>> uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For >>>> example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a >>>> decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing >>>> the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger >>>> feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the >>>> unstructured wall. >>>> Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate >>>> within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as >>> "natural" >>>> and the other side as "humanly constructed". >>>> For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This >>>> notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide >>> all >>>> our activity. >>>> >>>> The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not >>>> systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. >>>> Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his >>> cue >>>> from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving >>>> sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a >>> flaneur. >>>> Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" >>>> Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's >>>> participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. >>>> >>>> What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the >>> "movement" >>>> of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and >>>> relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content >>>> and offered no final word. >>>> Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of >>>> 1] reciprocal effect >>>> 2] form and content >>>> >>>> Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model >>> of >>>> modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. >>>> Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to >>> fit >>>> into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a >>>> sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His >>>> context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. >>>> [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] >>>> His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a >>>> dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within >>> his >>>> approach. >>>> >>>> Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's >>>> notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] >>> FOR >>>> LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off >>> from >>>> the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the >>> "as >>>> if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. >>>> >>>> But that also is for another post. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). The Open University is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 12:59:37 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:59:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry, Haven't showered yet here in Highland. So, yes, these distributed salons have certain affordances that bodily co-present salons lack! -greg On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 1:15 PM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > And we don?t have to dress up. I?m still in my jammies (pajamas) here in > snowy Albuquerque. Shall I send some snow your way, or would you rather > have Rob?s rain? > Henbry > > > On Feb 28, 2015, at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > This isn't a salon? > > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > > :-) > > mike > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > >> Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to > them > >> soon. > >> > >> A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder > about > >> the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > >> impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > >> when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > >> Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > >> involved considering that we were all male!). > >> > >> Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to > give > >> an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > >> matters that seem to matter today are making money. > >> > >> But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > already > >> have tenure...). > >> > >> -greg > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > wrote: > >> > >>> This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > >> Simmel's > >>> approach to being human, > >>> I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > thinker > >>> and a hopeful thinker. > >>> It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > >>> "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > >>> century. > >>> There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > >>> re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > >>> scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > "Form > >>> and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > >>> authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > >>> > >>> They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > >>> within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > >> tradition > >>> with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > >> and > >>> Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > reception > >>> and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > of > >>> the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > the > >>> authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > >> further > >>> expansion. > >>> > >>> The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > >> dialectic. > >>> This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > >>> Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach > >>> and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > theory. > >>> Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > >>> interaction. > >>> > >>> This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > >> and > >>> on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > >>> "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > >>> unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > world > >>> as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > >>> include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > >>> Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > >>> realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > >> existence. > >>> This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > >> dualism > >>> [between subject and object within modernity] > >>> > >>> Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > >> abstract > >>> conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > formulations > >>> of Simmel's work: > >>> > >>> 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > limited > >>> number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > >>> potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > from > >>> application of these general polarities. > >>> > >>> 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > >> general > >>> to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such > as > >>> space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > >> well > >>> known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > >>> fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > >>> presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > >>> > >>> 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > >>> operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > >>> syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > >>> "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > >>> interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > >>> reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > dualities, > >>> or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > >>> according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > of > >>> thought. > >>> > >>> 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > >> introduces a > >>> related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between > on > >>> the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > >>> potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > >>> "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > >>> dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > >> but > >>> this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > >>> > >>> For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > >>> polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > are > >>> "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > >>> summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > >>> endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > >>> myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > >>> sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > >> viewpoint > >>> goes beyond these comparisons. > >>> > >>> "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > >> fixed > >>> meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > >>> subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > >>> Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > properties > >> of > >>> form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > distances - > >>> and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > dualities > >>> of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > >>> separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > Simmel > >>> uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > >>> example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > in a > >>> decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > representing > >>> the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > >>> feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > >>> unstructured wall. > >>> Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > >>> within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > >> "natural" > >>> and the other side as "humanly constructed". > >>> For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > This > >>> notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > >> all > >>> our activity. > >>> > >>> The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > >>> systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > >>> Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > >> cue > >>> from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > roving > >>> sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > >> flaneur. > >>> Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > >>> Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > Simmel's > >>> participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > >>> > >>> What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > >> "movement" > >>> of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > >>> relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > content > >>> and offered no final word. > >>> Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > >>> 1] reciprocal effect > >>> 2] form and content > >>> > >>> Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > model > >> of > >>> modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > enactments. > >>> Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > >> fit > >>> into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than > a > >>> sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > >>> context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > context. > >>> [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > >>> His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > >>> dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > >> his > >>> approach. > >>> > >>> Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > >>> notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > >> FOR > >>> LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > >> from > >>> the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > >> "as > >>> if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > >>> > >>> But that also is for another post. > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 14:42:47 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:42:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is it about those alliterating bilabials, those Ps and that B, that stings so much! Henry > On Feb 28, 2015, at 1:10 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Hmmm. have to go back and look at the people blasting Simmel for his salon- > ness. > Import people like Adorno and Benjamin. At least most xmc-ites can claim to > be petty bourgeois and prattling, can't we? > > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Yes Mike, excellent point! >> But I feel that the affordances of the medium in which this salon exists >> are quite different from those of salons that involve bodily co-presence. >> I think mood is the missing factor. >> Yes, there is mood here. (and where is "here"?). But it is muted. And the >> mood of a listserve is never quite so coherent as the mood of an actual >> room. >> >> (and there I should simply have said that the mood of an actual room is >> "relatively less incoherent" - since there is seldom, if ever, perfect >> coherence of mood across actors in a room). >> >> -greg >> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:37 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> This isn't a salon? >>> We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! >>> :-) >>> mike >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry, >>>> Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the >>>> Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to >> them >>>> soon. >>>> >>>> A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder >> about >>>> the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an >>>> impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because >>>> when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as >> "Madam >>>> Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender >> politics >>>> involved considering that we were all male!). >>>> >>>> Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to >> give >>>> an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only >>>> matters that seem to matter today are making money. >>>> >>>> But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you >>> already >>>> have tenure...). >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of >>>> Simmel's >>>>> approach to being human, >>>>> I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical >>> thinker >>>>> and a hopeful thinker. >>>>> It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding >> of >>>>> "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th >>>>> century. >>>>> There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are >>>>> re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within >> Simmel's >>>>> scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: >>> "Form >>>>> and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. >> The >>>>> authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. >>>>> >>>>> They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis >> located >>>>> within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a >>>> tradition >>>>> with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, >> Hegel, >>>> and >>>>> Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American >>> reception >>>>> and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination >>> of >>>>> the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what >>> the >>>>> authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its >>>> further >>>>> expansion. >>>>> >>>>> The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the >>>> dialectic. >>>>> This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". >>>>> Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's >>> approach >>>>> and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical >>> theory. >>>>> Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of >>>>> interaction. >>>>> >>>>> This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on >> "interrelations" >>>> and >>>>> on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of >> dialectical >>>>> "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND >>>>> unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the >>> world >>>>> as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational >> assumptions >>>>> include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". >>>>> Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological >>>>> realms as dialectically related between nature and human social >>>> existence. >>>>> This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great >>>> dualism >>>>> [between subject and object within modernity] >>>>> >>>>> Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's >>>> abstract >>>>> conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key >>> formulations >>>>> of Simmel's work: >>>>> >>>>> 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a >>> limited >>>>> number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a >>>>> potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived >>> from >>>>> application of these general polarities. >>>>> >>>>> 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most >>>> general >>>>> to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - >> such >>> as >>>>> space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a >>>> well >>>>> known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal >> the >>>>> fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and >> by >>>>> presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. >>>>> >>>>> 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that >>>>> operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as >>>>> syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" >> and >>>>> "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns >> of >>>>> interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the >>>>> reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, >>> dualities, >>>>> or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, >>>>> according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories >>> of >>>>> thought. >>>>> >>>>> 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships >>>> introduces a >>>>> related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension >> between >>> on >>>>> the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other >> hand a >>>>> potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human >>>>> "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly >>>>> dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is >> present, >>>> but >>>>> this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of >> hope. >>>>> >>>>> For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from >>>>> polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities >>> are >>>>> "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can >> be >>>>> summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no >>>>> endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified >> in >>>>> myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, >> though >>>>> sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his >>>> viewpoint >>>>> goes beyond these comparisons. >>>>> >>>>> "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a >>>> fixed >>>>> meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The >>>>> subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] >>>>> Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the >>> properties >>>> of >>>>> form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative >>> distances - >>>>> and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the >>> dualities >>>>> of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and >>>>> separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. >>> Simmel >>>>> uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For >>>>> example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" >>> in a >>>>> decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" >>> representing >>>>> the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger >>>>> feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does >> the >>>>> unstructured wall. >>>>> Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate >>>>> within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as >>>> "natural" >>>>> and the other side as "humanly constructed". >>>>> For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. >>> This >>>>> notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can >> guide >>>> all >>>>> our activity. >>>>> >>>>> The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and >> not >>>>> systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. >>>>> Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking >> his >>>> cue >>>>> from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a >>> roving >>>>> sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a >>>> flaneur. >>>>> Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" >>>>> Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to >>> Simmel's >>>>> participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. >>>>> >>>>> What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the >>>> "movement" >>>>> of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and >>>>> relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and >>> content >>>>> and offered no final word. >>>>> Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of >>>>> 1] reciprocal effect >>>>> 2] form and content >>>>> >>>>> Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a >>> model >>>> of >>>>> modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal >>> enactments. >>>>> Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized >> to >>>> fit >>>>> into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more >> than >>> a >>>>> sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. >> His >>>>> context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this >>> context. >>>>> [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] >>>>> His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a >>>>> dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure >> within >>>> his >>>>> approach. >>>>> >>>>> Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further >> Simmel's >>>>> notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a >> hunger] >>>> FOR >>>>> LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off >>>> from >>>>> the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of >> the >>>> "as >>>>> if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. >>>>> >>>>> But that also is for another post. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object >>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 14:46:20 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:46:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: , <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com>, <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk>, , <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk>, , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Shirin, The polemic that such violence in the name of Islam is a response to European colonialism, capitalism, and the war in Iraq totally lacks credibility. There is no doubt that the war in Iraq created the opportunity for the rise of ISIS. But everyone knows that the animosity between Sunni and Shiite predates European and U.S. presence in the Middle East. The pillaging of Constantinople and the Basilica of Hagia Sophia was carried out by Turks in the name of Islam (in 1453). While many Muslims demand that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the land of Israel be returned to them, using the same logic how about returning Constantinople to the Europeans? This is now a post-Said world, thanks to ISIS. > From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:16:22 -0600 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul > > Helena, > What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it > say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and > other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US has > played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret > such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such > practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as > all the more democratic and free. > I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this > clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > brutal wars that led to this mess. > Shirin > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen > wrote: > > > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 15:01:13 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:01:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: , <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: Message from Francine: Mike, While it would be interesting to read Luria's writings on functional systems, his formulations have been greatly enhanced by contemporary neuroscience's use of the fMRI for brain imaging. I will look for something by a contemporary neurologist, as well. If my memory is correct, the first draft of the chapter that Larry Smolucha and I are writing for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity is due March 15th. We will write the section on neuropsychological systems now and I will look for a reference that XMCARs would be able to access now. > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 > To: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com; xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But my > first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This should > be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort we > might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" that > has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a brain > scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is ongoing. > mike > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei > wrote: > > > Hi Francine ! > > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > > Think of this please : > > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it would > > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug is on > > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the three-year-old and > > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to their > > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, > > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary > > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; > > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > > signifies an object." > > > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction > > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story > > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is > > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is the > > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > > interpreted differently." > > > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me > > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we > > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not think of > > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the picture > > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it more > > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to tell its > > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a twelve-year-old > > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: here > > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is > > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical > > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > > From: larry smolucha > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > Message from Francine" > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are > > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. > > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > > preschoolers) > > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, > > and > > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > > verbal guidance > > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed > > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > > (i.e., become > > higher functions). > > > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > > Chaiklin calls > > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > > disciplines > > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > > thinking, > > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question > > arises: > > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > > direct > > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > > acquired > > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's > > use of > > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > > awareness > > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > > follows a > > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > > psychological > > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > > terms can be > > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate > > when > > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is > > a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > > Meichenbaum), that uses > > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk > > to help the > > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that > > different > > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > > systems. > > > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction > > means > > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > > individual - > > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > > (dialectics) and external conversations > > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > > learning is that > > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more > > than > > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal > > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > > individuals > > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. > > For, example > > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > > metaphorical > > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be > > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > Francine, > > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > > "reciprocal > > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. Is > > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > > imagine > > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings > > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your > > > statement: > > > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > consciously > > > directing > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > creativity. > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > > (such > > > as imagination > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > systems" > > > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone > > of > > > > proximal > > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > > Vygotsky, > > > > however, > > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > > psychological functions > > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > > through > > > > the internalization > > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > > psychological (or mental) > > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, > > such > > > > as scientific > > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete > > and > > > > formal operational > > > > thinking. > > > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental > > model > > > > produces > > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > > preordained > > > > by a particular > > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. > > By > > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > > becomes > > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > consciously > > > > directing > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > > creativity. > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > > (such > > > > as imagination > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > > systems. > > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > > brain-imaging > > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > > "Neuropsychological > > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > > Creativity. > > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > > Larry > > > > and I expand > > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > > including > > > > Vygotsky's > > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > > "functions". > > > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > > development > > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age > > period > > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could > > not be > > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > > interaction, > > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > > existence > > > > and > > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > > "crystallized" > > > > or > > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > > structures. > > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > > subjectively > > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > > social > > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the > > goal > > > > or > > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > > universally > > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > > function > > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), > > even > > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > > these > > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > > functions > > > > are > > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > > [page 7] > > > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > > which > > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > > proximal > > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > > does > > > > not > > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > > psychological > > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > > development > > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > > developed in > > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts > > > > [which > > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in > > > > order > > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > > [verbal > > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > > structural > > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One > > can > > > > say > > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > > historically > > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > > school age > > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > > intellectual > > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of > > the > > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of development > > > > when > > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > > questioning? > > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > > "what > > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its > > "new" > > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > > > > clarity > > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding > > the > > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 15:19:11 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: <, > <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <, > Message-ID: <12ABB499-43A3-4142-9F24-60A6573F60F8@gmail.com> Mike and Francine, Would I be wrong in thinking that Mike?s use of Luria and your new book relate to Hutto and embodied cognition? As well, the whole notion of the localization of functions in the brain? For example, is language an organ, as Chomsky seems to describe it, or as a vastly distributed plasticticizing potential? Either way, is it a black box? I am also interested in the possibility that Hutto, with radically embodied cognition, comes into play. Was it you Francine who, some weeks ago, asserted that Hutto is too radical? I gravitate to radicals, like Na to Cl. But, these are real, serious questions of mine, though I often fool myself into thinking I know the answers. Looking for a 3rd space here probably. Disclose! I want to learn! Henry > On Feb 28, 2015, at 4:01 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > > Message from Francine: > > Mike, > > While it would be interesting to read Luria's writings on functional > systems, his formulations have been greatly enhanced by contemporary > neuroscience's use of the fMRI for brain imaging. I will look for something > by a contemporary neurologist, as well. > > If my memory is correct, the first draft of the chapter that Larry Smolucha and I > are writing for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity is due March 15th. > We will write the section on neuropsychological systems now and I will look > for a reference that XMCARs would be able to access now. > > >> From: mcole@ucsd.edu >> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 >> To: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com; xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development >> >> I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But my >> first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This should >> be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort we >> might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" that >> has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a brain >> scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is ongoing. >> mike >> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Francine ! >>> This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant >>> province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That >>> dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . >>> Think of this please : >>> "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees >>> separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of >>> effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the >>> prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, >>> another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it would >>> be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug is on >>> the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the three-year-old and >>> the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to their >>> functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, >>> it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary >>> word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; >>> the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that >>> signifies an object." >>> >>> "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction >>> has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story >>> with the picture and everything that we know about the development of >>> thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is >>> curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and >>> facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is the >>> case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be >>> interpreted differently." >>> >>> "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a >>> definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me >>> to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we >>> will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not >>> through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not think of >>> the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot >>> form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We >>> will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the picture >>> shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture >>> sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the >>> play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it more >>> simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to tell its >>> story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or >>> five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a twelve-year-old >>> tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: here >>> the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they >>> were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is >>> added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was >>> fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical >>> portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." >>> >>> The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators >>> themselves . However , I end this portion here . >>> From: larry smolucha >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of >>> proximal development >>> >>> Message from Francine" >>> >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can >>> be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are >>> consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. >>> For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and >>> preschoolers) >>> as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, >>> and >>> realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the >>> verbal guidance >>> of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed >>> attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking >>> (i.e., become >>> higher functions). >>> >>> But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what >>> Chaiklin calls >>> functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several >>> disciplines >>> of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical >>> thinking, >>> mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question >>> arises: >>> Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously >>> direct >>> their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have >>> acquired >>> higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's >>> use of >>> the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive >>> awareness >>> of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level >>> practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically >>> follows a >>> procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. >>> >>> A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher >>> psychological >>> functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the >>> terms can be >>> used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate >>> when >>> discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is >>> a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald >>> Meichenbaum), that uses >>> the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk >>> to help the >>> client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that >>> different >>> higher psychological functions can function together as psychological >>> systems. >>> >>> I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction >>> means >>> that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the >>> individual - >>> I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of >>> Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues >>> (dialectics) and external conversations >>> new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. >>> >>> Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative >>> learning is that >>> it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more >>> than >>> the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal >>> development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as >>> individuals >>> they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. >>> For, example >>> if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at >>> metaphorical >>> thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be >>> very good at grammar and/or spelling. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 >>>> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of >>> proximal development >>>> >>>> Francine, >>>> Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of >>> "reciprocal >>>> interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. Is >>>> it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing >>>> "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as >>>> "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can >>> imagine >>>> the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings >>>> of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal >>>> interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your >>>> statement: >>>> >>>> "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of >>> consciously >>>> directing >>>> one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for >>>> creativity. >>>> Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions >>> (such >>>> as imagination >>>> and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological >>>> systems" >>>> >>>> I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" >>>> where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and >>>> reciprocally enrich each "other" ? >>>> >>>> I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha: >>>>> >>>>> Larry, >>>>> >>>>> Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone >>> of >>>>> proximal >>>>> development), creates a developmental model that is very static. >>> Vygotsky, >>>>> however, >>>>> is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary >>>>> psychological functions >>>>> develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions >>> through >>>>> the internalization >>>>> of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher >>>>> psychological (or mental) >>>>> functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, >>> such >>>>> as scientific >>>>> concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete >>> and >>>>> formal operational >>>>> thinking. >>>>> >>>>> I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental >>> model >>>>> produces >>>>> crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are >>> preordained >>>>> by a particular >>>>> culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which >>>>> reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. >>> By >>>>> making the term 'higher' simply refer to >>>>> the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all >>> becomes >>>>> culturally relative. >>>>> >>>>> Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of >>> consciously >>>>> directing >>>>> one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for >>>>> creativity. >>>>> Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions >>> (such >>>>> as imagination >>>>> and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological >>>>> systems. >>>>> This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its >>>>> brain-imaging >>>>> studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. >>>>> >>>>> My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled >>>>> "Neuropsychological >>>>> Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and >>>>> Creativity. >>>>> Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that >>> Larry >>>>> and I expand >>>>> that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources >>> including >>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>> works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 >>>>>> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com >>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of >>>>> proximal development >>>>>> >>>>>> Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of >>> "functions". >>>>>> >>>>>> The article's concluding comment is: >>>>>> >>>>>> According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal >>>>> development >>>>>> refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age >>> period >>>>>> and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could >>> not be >>>>>> achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in >>>>> interaction, >>>>>> rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their >>> existence >>>>> and >>>>>> the extent to which they have developed." >>>>>> >>>>>> I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are >>> "crystallized" >>>>> or >>>>>> "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" >>> structures. >>>>>> Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will >>> subjectively >>>>>> move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern >>> social >>>>>> situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the >>> goal >>>>> or >>>>>> desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in >>>>>> particular historical social situations of development, not >>> universally >>>>>> applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts >>> function >>>>>> within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a >>>>>> biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), >>> even >>>>>> though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , >>>>>> perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on >>> these >>>>>> natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological >>> functions >>>>> are >>>>>> 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." >>> [page 7] >>>>>> >>>>>> In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] >>> which >>>>>> Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", >>>>>> "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of >>> proximal >>>>>> development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it >>> does >>>>> not >>>>>> refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the >>> psychological >>>>>> functions that need to be formed during a given age period of >>> development >>>>>> [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts >>> developed in >>>>>> school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts >>>>> [which >>>>>> are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in >>>>> order >>>>>> to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development >>> [verbal >>>>>> thought]. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this >>>>>> objective zone: >>>>>> >>>>>> "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the >>>>> structural >>>>>> relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively >>>>>> constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One >>> can >>>>> say >>>>>> that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it >>>>>> *reflects *[LP-mirrors] >>>>>> the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed >>>>> historically >>>>>> in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example >>> school age >>>>>> children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic >>>>>> (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this >>>>>> *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different >>>>> intellectual >>>>>> structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of >>> the >>>>>> new-formations for this age ... " [page7] >>>>>> >>>>>> In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are >>>>>> normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. >>>>>> >>>>>> The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative >>>>>> functions existing within particular social situations of development >>>>> when >>>>>> the social situations that now exist become the object of deep >>>>> questioning? >>>>>> This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of >>> "what >>>>>> if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its >>> "new" >>>>>> formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of >>>>>> inquiry? >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought >>>>> clarity >>>>>> to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding >>> the >>>>>> meaning and sense of ZPD. >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 15:28:27 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:28:27 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Francine--- I am certain you are correct about the importance of contemporary work on functional systems. But in so far as we are discussing these ideas in light of Vygotsky's, I thought the Luria fragment relevant. I have Luria's copy of LSV's "Development of higher psychological functions" from 1960 and on every page of the article contained therein on the study of localization of psychological functions, where a lot of discussion of functional systems arises, there are the extensive notes of someone who took the ideas very seriously. Given ARL's dim view of the way American neuropsychology went about thinking about such matters, perhaps such archania might prove useful. Certainly it would be fascinating to see a critical account of these ideas. Perhaps in Elkhonin Goldberg's writings? mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 3:01 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine: > > Mike, > > While it would be interesting to read Luria's writings on functional > systems, his formulations have been greatly enhanced by contemporary > neuroscience's use of the fMRI for brain imaging. I will look for something > by a contemporary neurologist, as well. > > If my memory is correct, the first draft of the chapter that Larry > Smolucha and I > are writing for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity is due March > 15th. > We will write the section on neuropsychological systems now and I will look > for a reference that XMCARs would be able to access now. > > > > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 > > To: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com; xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > proximal development > > > > I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But > my > > first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This > should > > be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort > we > > might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" > that > > has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a > brain > > scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is > ongoing. > > mike > > > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei < > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Francine ! > > > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > > > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > > > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > > > Think of this please : > > > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > > > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > > > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > > > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > > > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it > would > > > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug > is on > > > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the > three-year-old and > > > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to > their > > > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the > child, > > > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, > primary > > > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an > object; > > > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > > > signifies an object." > > > > > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal > contradiction > > > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the > story > > > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > > > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. > It is > > > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > > > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is > the > > > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > > > interpreted differently." > > > > > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > > > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem > to me > > > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and > we > > > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > > > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not > think of > > > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > > > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > > > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the > picture > > > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > > > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > > > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it > more > > > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to > tell its > > > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > > > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a > twelve-year-old > > > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: > here > > > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > > > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be > free is > > > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > > > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a > typical > > > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > > > > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > > > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > > > From: larry smolucha > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > proximal development > > > > > > Message from Francine" > > > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > > > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions > are > > > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are > spontaneous. > > > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > > > preschoolers) > > > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, > imagination, > > > and > > > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > > > verbal guidance > > > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously > directed > > > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > > > (i.e., become > > > higher functions). > > > > > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > > > Chaiklin calls > > > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > > > disciplines > > > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > > > thinking, > > > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting > question > > > arises: > > > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > > > direct > > > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > > > acquired > > > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in > Vygotsky's > > > use of > > > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > > > awareness > > > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > > > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > > > follows a > > > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > > > > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > > > psychological > > > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > > > terms can be > > > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more > appropriate > > > when > > > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy > is > > > a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > > > Meichenbaum), that uses > > > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's > self-talk > > > to help the > > > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say > that > > > different > > > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > > > systems. > > > > > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal > interaction > > > means > > > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > > > individual - > > > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > > > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > > > (dialectics) and external conversations > > > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > > > > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > > > learning is that > > > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something > more > > > than > > > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of > proximal > > > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > > > individuals > > > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others > acquire. > > > For, example > > > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > > > metaphorical > > > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might > be > > > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > Francine, > > > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > > > "reciprocal > > > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical > hermeneutics. Is > > > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as > expressing > > > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > > > imagine > > > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both > understandings > > > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, > your > > > > statement: > > > > > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > > consciously > > > > directing > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > > creativity. > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > > > (such > > > > as imagination > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > > systems" > > > > > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a > "zone" > > > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha < > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and > zone > > > of > > > > > proximal > > > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > > > Vygotsky, > > > > > however, > > > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > > > psychological functions > > > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > > > through > > > > > the internalization > > > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > > > psychological (or mental) > > > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract > thinking, > > > such > > > > > as scientific > > > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian > concrete > > > and > > > > > formal operational > > > > > thinking. > > > > > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's > developmental > > > model > > > > > produces > > > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > > > preordained > > > > > by a particular > > > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in > which > > > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain > ages]. > > > By > > > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > > > becomes > > > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > > consciously > > > > > directing > > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows > for > > > > > creativity. > > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental > functions > > > (such > > > > > as imagination > > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as > psychological > > > > > systems. > > > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > > > brain-imaging > > > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > > > "Neuropsychological > > > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > > > Creativity. > > > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > > > Larry > > > > > and I expand > > > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > > > including > > > > > Vygotsky's > > > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > > > "functions". > > > > > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > > > development > > > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next > age > > > period > > > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that > could > > > not be > > > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > > > interaction, > > > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > > > existence > > > > > and > > > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > > > "crystallized" > > > > > or > > > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > > > structures. > > > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > > > subjectively > > > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > > > social > > > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is > the > > > goal > > > > > or > > > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist > in > > > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > > > universally > > > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > > > function > > > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not > reflecting a > > > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic > sources), > > > even > > > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > > > these > > > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > > > functions > > > > > are > > > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > > > [page 7] > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > > > which > > > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present > age", > > > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > > > proximal > > > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > > > does > > > > > not > > > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > > > psychological > > > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > > > development > > > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > > > developed in > > > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract > concepts > > > > > [which > > > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop > first in > > > > > order > > > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > > > [verbal > > > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of > this > > > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > > > structural > > > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. > One > > > can > > > > > say > > > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > > > historically > > > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > > > school age > > > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with > academic > > > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific > manifestation of > > > the > > > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations > which are > > > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these > normative > > > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of > development > > > > > when > > > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > > > questioning? > > > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > > > "what > > > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and > its > > > "new" > > > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the > "object" of > > > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article > brought > > > > > clarity > > > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for > understanding > > > the > > > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 15:54:53 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 17:54:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Message from Francine Toulmin's book Human Understanding (1972) is a good read, as well. He discusses how world views and scientific theories evolve, in contrast, to the revolutionary change described by Thomas Kuhn (1967 The Structure of Scientific Revolutions). For both Toulmin and Kuhn, some problem has to arise that is serious enough to warrant reconsidering, revising, or replacing a preexisting world view or scientific theory. A crisis will also do that. Theodore Ribot (1900) regarded utopian thinking as an important area of creativity, along with the arts, sciences, etc. Under utopian thinking he included the designing of political ideologies and governmental systems. Larry Smolucha and I will address this as well in our upcoming chapter. I mention it here because the appearance of the 'Sledgehammer thread' on XMCA has finally brought the topic of ISIS into our discussion. It is interesting that it was the topic of the desecration of archaeological antiquities that sparked the first discussion on XMCA of the ISIS crisis in the Middle East, and not the burning, beheading, and crucifixion of men, women, and children whether Muslim, Jew, or Christian. In an earlier post, I said the old polemic of blaming every problem in the world today on Europe and the USA was not credible anymore. People certainly can keep quoting Edward Said and that line of thinking, but the gruesome reality of what ISIS and similar groups are doing has rendered that paradigm out of date. The actions of ISIS and similar groups, are drowning out the talking points of Said. By the way, Stephen Toulmin was my master's degree thesis sponsor in 1974, at the University of Chicago. > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:11:11 -0800 > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > CC: xmca@potpourri.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed > > Mike, Greg, > Alan Janik and Stephen Toulmin have written a book "Wittgenstein's Vienna" > which is there approach to historical ontology. They wrote this book as an > attempt to get "behind" the stangle hold of "disciplinary" silos recently > discussed here. They are trying to re-create the "atmosphere" or "style" > where scholars, journalists, scientists, artists were all reading and > discussing the same topics and expanding each others horizons. > And yes, this site does offer that "spaces" for multiple perspectives to > challenge and liberate our prejudices. > The book on Simmel with the title "Cultivating Minds" I believe "captures" > the approach of salon culture to generating "rich complex developing > "themes" which may morph into "meanings" [as they become crystalized] > Larry > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:37 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > This isn't a salon? > > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > > :-) > > mike > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > wrote: > > > > > Larry, > > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > > > soon. > > > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > > already > > > have tenure...). > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > > Simmel's > > > > approach to being human, > > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > > thinker > > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of > > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > > century. > > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's > > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > > "Form > > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The > > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located > > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > > tradition > > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, > > > and > > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > > reception > > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination > > of > > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what > > the > > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > > further > > > > expansion. > > > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > > dialectic. > > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > > approach > > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > > theory. > > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > > interaction. > > > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" > > > and > > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical > > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > > world > > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions > > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological > > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > > existence. > > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > > dualism > > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > > abstract > > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > > formulations > > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > > limited > > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > > from > > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > > general > > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such > > as > > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a > > > well > > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the > > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by > > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that > > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as > > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and > > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of > > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the > > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > > dualities, > > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories > > of > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > > introduces a > > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between > > on > > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a > > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, > > > but > > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. > > > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities > > are > > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be > > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no > > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in > > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though > > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > > viewpoint > > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a > > > fixed > > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] > > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > > properties > > > of > > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > > distances - > > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > > dualities > > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and > > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > > Simmel > > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" > > in a > > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > > representing > > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger > > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the > > > > unstructured wall. > > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate > > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > > "natural" > > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > > This > > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide > > > all > > > > our activity. > > > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not > > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his > > > cue > > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > > roving > > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > > flaneur. > > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > > Simmel's > > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > > "movement" > > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > > content > > > > and offered no final word. > > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > > model > > > of > > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > > enactments. > > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to > > > fit > > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than > > a > > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His > > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > > context. > > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within > > > his > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's > > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] > > > FOR > > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off > > > from > > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the > > > "as > > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 16:02:08 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:02:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: <12ABB499-43A3-4142-9F24-60A6573F60F8@gmail.com> References: <,,> <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>,<,,> , , <12ABB499-43A3-4142-9F24-60A6573F60F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Message from Francine: Henry, I didn't say Hutto was too radical - I do not know anything about his ideas. However, I just Googled 'Hutto embodied cognition" and a paper he wrote on the E-words came up. I remember the earlier discussion on this. The E-word trend does not fit what I have been reading and working on. I will take a good look at embodied cognition to see how it fits. > From: hshonerd@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:19:11 -0700 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Mike and Francine, > Would I be wrong in thinking that Mike?s use of Luria and your new book relate to Hutto and embodied cognition? As well, the whole notion of the localization of functions in the brain? For example, is language an organ, as Chomsky seems to describe it, or as a vastly distributed plasticticizing potential? Either way, is it a black box? I am also interested in the possibility that Hutto, with radically embodied cognition, comes into play. Was it you Francine who, some weeks ago, asserted that Hutto is too radical? I gravitate to radicals, like Na to Cl. But, these are real, serious questions of mine, though I often fool myself into thinking I know the answers. Looking for a 3rd space here probably. Disclose! I want to learn! > Henry > > > On Feb 28, 2015, at 4:01 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > > > > Message from Francine: > > > > Mike, > > > > While it would be interesting to read Luria's writings on functional > > systems, his formulations have been greatly enhanced by contemporary > > neuroscience's use of the fMRI for brain imaging. I will look for something > > by a contemporary neurologist, as well. > > > > If my memory is correct, the first draft of the chapter that Larry Smolucha and I > > are writing for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity is due March 15th. > > We will write the section on neuropsychological systems now and I will look > > for a reference that XMCARs would be able to access now. > > > > > >> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > >> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 > >> To: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com; xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > >> > >> I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But my > >> first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This should > >> be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort we > >> might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" that > >> has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a brain > >> scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is ongoing. > >> mike > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Francine ! > >>> This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > >>> province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > >>> dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > >>> Think of this please : > >>> "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > >>> separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > >>> effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > >>> prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > >>> another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it would > >>> be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug is on > >>> the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the three-year-old and > >>> the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to their > >>> functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the child, > >>> it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, primary > >>> word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an object; > >>> the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > >>> signifies an object." > >>> > >>> "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal contradiction > >>> has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the story > >>> with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > >>> thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. It is > >>> curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > >>> facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is the > >>> case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > >>> interpreted differently." > >>> > >>> "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > >>> definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem to me > >>> to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and we > >>> will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > >>> through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not think of > >>> the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > >>> form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > >>> will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the picture > >>> shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > >>> sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > >>> play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it more > >>> simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to tell its > >>> story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > >>> five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a twelve-year-old > >>> tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: here > >>> the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > >>> were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be free is > >>> added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > >>> fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a typical > >>> portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > >>> > >>> The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > >>> themselves . However , I end this portion here . > >>> From: larry smolucha > >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > >>> proximal development > >>> > >>> Message from Francine" > >>> > >>> Hi Larry, > >>> > >>> Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > >>> be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions are > >>> consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are spontaneous. > >>> For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > >>> preschoolers) > >>> as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, imagination, > >>> and > >>> realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > >>> verbal guidance > >>> of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously directed > >>> attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > >>> (i.e., become > >>> higher functions). > >>> > >>> But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > >>> Chaiklin calls > >>> functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > >>> disciplines > >>> of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > >>> thinking, > >>> mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting question > >>> arises: > >>> Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > >>> direct > >>> their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > >>> acquired > >>> higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in Vygotsky's > >>> use of > >>> the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > >>> awareness > >>> of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > >>> practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > >>> follows a > >>> procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > >>> > >>> A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > >>> psychological > >>> functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > >>> terms can be > >>> used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more appropriate > >>> when > >>> discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy is > >>> a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > >>> Meichenbaum), that uses > >>> the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's self-talk > >>> to help the > >>> client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say that > >>> different > >>> higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > >>> systems. > >>> > >>> I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal interaction > >>> means > >>> that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > >>> individual - > >>> I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > >>> Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > >>> (dialectics) and external conversations > >>> new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > >>> > >>> Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > >>> learning is that > >>> it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something more > >>> than > >>> the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of proximal > >>> development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > >>> individuals > >>> they might have higher level skills that they can help the others acquire. > >>> For, example > >>> if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > >>> metaphorical > >>> thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might be > >>> very good at grammar and/or spelling. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > >>>> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > >>> proximal development > >>>> > >>>> Francine, > >>>> Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > >>> "reciprocal > >>>> interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical hermeneutics. Is > >>>> it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as expressing > >>>> "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > >>>> "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > >>> imagine > >>>> the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both understandings > >>>> of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > >>>> interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, your > >>>> statement: > >>>> > >>>> "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > >>> consciously > >>>> directing > >>>> one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > >>>> creativity. > >>>> Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > >>> (such > >>>> as imagination > >>>> and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > >>>> systems" > >>>> > >>>> I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a "zone" > >>>> where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > >>>> reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > >>>> > >>>> I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > >>>> > >>>> Larry > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha: > >>>>> > >>>>> Larry, > >>>>> > >>>>> Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and zone > >>> of > >>>>> proximal > >>>>> development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > >>> Vygotsky, > >>>>> however, > >>>>> is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > >>>>> psychological functions > >>>>> develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > >>> through > >>>>> the internalization > >>>>> of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > >>>>> psychological (or mental) > >>>>> functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract thinking, > >>> such > >>>>> as scientific > >>>>> concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian concrete > >>> and > >>>>> formal operational > >>>>> thinking. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's developmental > >>> model > >>>>> produces > >>>>> crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > >>> preordained > >>>>> by a particular > >>>>> culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in which > >>>>> reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain ages]. > >>> By > >>>>> making the term 'higher' simply refer to > >>>>> the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > >>> becomes > >>>>> culturally relative. > >>>>> > >>>>> Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > >>> consciously > >>>>> directing > >>>>> one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > >>>>> creativity. > >>>>> Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > >>> (such > >>>>> as imagination > >>>>> and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > >>>>> systems. > >>>>> This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > >>>>> brain-imaging > >>>>> studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > >>>>> > >>>>> My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > >>>>> "Neuropsychological > >>>>> Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > >>>>> Creativity. > >>>>> Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > >>> Larry > >>>>> and I expand > >>>>> that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > >>> including > >>>>> Vygotsky's > >>>>> works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > >>>>>> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > >>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > >>>>> proximal development > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > >>> "functions". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The article's concluding comment is: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > >>>>> development > >>>>>> refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next age > >>> period > >>>>>> and that enable performance in collaborative situations that could > >>> not be > >>>>>> achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > >>>>> interaction, > >>>>>> rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > >>> existence > >>>>> and > >>>>>> the extent to which they have developed." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > >>> "crystallized" > >>>>> or > >>>>>> "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > >>> structures. > >>>>>> Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > >>> subjectively > >>>>>> move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > >>> social > >>>>>> situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is the > >>> goal > >>>>> or > >>>>>> desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist in > >>>>>> particular historical social situations of development, not > >>> universally > >>>>>> applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > >>> function > >>>>>> within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "It is important to recognize that these periods are not reflecting a > >>>>>> biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic sources), > >>> even > >>>>>> though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > >>>>>> perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > >>> these > >>>>>> natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > >>> functions > >>>>> are > >>>>>> 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > >>> [page 7] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > >>> which > >>>>>> Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present age", > >>>>>> "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > >>> proximal > >>>>>> development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > >>> does > >>>>> not > >>>>>> refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > >>> psychological > >>>>>> functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > >>> development > >>>>>> [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > >>> developed in > >>>>>> school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract concepts > >>>>> [which > >>>>>> are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop first in > >>>>> order > >>>>>> to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > >>> [verbal > >>>>>> thought]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of this > >>>>>> objective zone: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > >>>>> structural > >>>>>> relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > >>>>>> constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. One > >>> can > >>>>> say > >>>>>> that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > >>>>>> *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > >>>>>> the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > >>>>> historically > >>>>>> in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > >>> school age > >>>>>> children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with academic > >>>>>> (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > >>>>>> *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > >>>>> intellectual > >>>>>> structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific manifestation of > >>> the > >>>>>> new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In other words functions which develop are "new" formations which are > >>>>>> normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The question that I am left with is the relation of these normative > >>>>>> functions existing within particular social situations of development > >>>>> when > >>>>>> the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > >>>>> questioning? > >>>>>> This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > >>> "what > >>>>>> if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and its > >>> "new" > >>>>>> formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the "object" of > >>>>>> inquiry? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article brought > >>>>> clarity > >>>>>> to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for understanding > >>> the > >>>>>> meaning and sense of ZPD. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Larry > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > >> that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 16:19:21 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:19:21 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development In-Reply-To: References: , <1023440842.2077149.1425053271508.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>, , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Mike, This is wonderful! It provides the provenance for the theory of neuropsychological systems from Vygotsky to Luria to the brain-imaging research of contemporary neuroscience. I did not find Goldberg's book The Executive Brain useful because that book did not discusses the neurological systems in any detail. Goldberg certainly has other publications providing this neurological evidence. At present, I am really a fan of Joaquin Fuster's book The Prefrontal Cortex. Fuster is very explicit in citing both Vygotsky and Luria's writings as the basis for contemporary neuroscience's focus on the neurological systems of the prefrontal cortex. At some point it would be worthwhile to translate some of Luria's handwritten comments in the margins of the 1960 publication of Vygotsky's article (or is it his book?) The Development of Higher Psychological Functions. > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:28:27 -0800 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of proximal development > > Hi Francine--- I am certain you are correct about the importance of > contemporary work > on functional systems. But in so far as we are discussing these ideas in > light of Vygotsky's, > I thought the Luria fragment relevant. > > I have Luria's copy of LSV's "Development of higher psychological > functions" from 1960 and on every page of the article contained therein on > the study of localization of psychological functions, where a lot of > discussion of functional systems arises, there are the extensive notes of > someone who took the ideas very seriously. Given ARL's dim view of the way > American neuropsychology went about thinking about such matters, perhaps > such archania might prove useful. > > Certainly it would be fascinating to see a critical account of these ideas. > Perhaps in Elkhonin Goldberg's writings? > > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 3:01 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine: > > > > Mike, > > > > While it would be interesting to read Luria's writings on functional > > systems, his formulations have been greatly enhanced by contemporary > > neuroscience's use of the fMRI for brain imaging. I will look for something > > by a contemporary neurologist, as well. > > > > If my memory is correct, the first draft of the chapter that Larry > > Smolucha and I > > are writing for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and Creativity is due March > > 15th. > > We will write the section on neuropsychological systems now and I will look > > for a reference that XMCARs would be able to access now. > > > > > > > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:48:49 -0800 > > > To: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com; xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > proximal development > > > > > > I am way behind on this discussion and will not try to join it yet. But > > my > > > first step is to go back and read Luria on functional systems. This > > should > > > be your specialty, Francine. Do you have a summary chapter of some sort > > we > > > might read? Another great entry point is "Man with a Shattered World" > > that > > > has, in addition to Luria's own account, a set of mini-lectures by a > > brain > > > scientists who worked with Luria. That is, if this discussion is > > ongoing. > > > mike > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Haydi Zulfei < > > haydizulfei@rocketmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Francine ! > > > > This is all brilliant , fantastic but just expressing the dominant > > > > province of Vygotsky's work the way I think which might be wrong . That > > > > dominant province is "word' and broader conceptions of "word" . > > > > Think of this please : > > > > "The experiment with the pictures indicates that a child of three sees > > > > separate objects and an older child thinks of the world as a system of > > > > effects. It develops that if one and the same picture (let us say, the > > > > prisoner in jail) is shown to a three-year-old, he will say, "a man, > > > > another man, a window, a mug, a bench," but for a preschool child it > > would > > > > be: '~ man is sitting, another is looking out the window and a mug > > is on > > > > the bench," We know that the opposite is true: both the > > three-year-old and > > > > the very young child resolve all the separate objects according to > > their > > > > functions, that is, they determine them through [actions]. For the > > child, > > > > it is [actions] that are primary. When we try to find the first, > > primary > > > > word, then we find that this is the name of an [action] and not an > > object; > > > > the child names a word that signifies an [action], then a word that > > > > signifies an object." > > > > > > > > "Summarizing the data, we come to this conclusion: a fatal > > contradiction > > > > has arisen between the development of thinking as presented by the > > story > > > > with the picture and everything that we know about the development of > > > > thinking from life. In both cases, the relations seem to be inverted. > > It is > > > > curious that all of these notions can be confirmed by experiments and > > > > facts. We can take a thousand children and show yet again that this is > > the > > > > case with the picture. It is an incontrovertible fact, but it must be > > > > interpreted differently." > > > > > > > > "Let us conduct an experiment because only experiments can give a > > > > definitive answer. There are several simple ways to do this that seem > > to me > > > > to be extremely clever. We will try to exclude the child's speech and > > we > > > > will try to get responses to the picture by some other means and not > > > > through words. If the proposition is true that the child does not > > think of > > > > the world as separate things but can say only separate words and cannot > > > > form their connections, then we will try to get along without words. We > > > > will ask two children not to tell a story, but to perform what the > > picture > > > > shows. It develops that the children's play about the picture > > > > sometimes lasts 20 or 30 minutes, and primarily and most of all in the > > > > play, those relations are captured that are in the picture. To put it > > more > > > > simply, if the child is asked to dramatize the picture and not to > > tell its > > > > story, then, according to the experiments of Stern, the four- or > > > > five-year-old child dramatizes the prison picture the way a > > twelve-year-old > > > > tells it. The child understands very well that the people are in jail: > > here > > > > the complex narration about how the people were caught, how they > > > > were taken, that one looks out the window, and that he wants to be > > free is > > > > added. Here a very complex narration is added about how the nanny was > > > > fined for not having a ticket on the trolley. In a word, we get a > > typical > > > > portrayal of what we see in the story of the twelve-year-old." > > > > > > > > The one screen rule has been breaking down many times by the initiators > > > > themselves . However , I end this portion here . > > > > From: larry smolucha > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2015, 10:27:05 > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > Message from Francine" > > > > > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree there is an way in which my perspective and Chaiklin's can > > > > be intertwined. First, my reading of Vygotsky is that higher functions > > are > > > > consciously directed, unlike elementary functions which are > > spontaneous. > > > > For Vygotsky all functions first exist (in animals, and in infants and > > > > preschoolers) > > > > as spontaneous processes of attention, perception, emotion, > > imagination, > > > > and > > > > realistic thinking. Through the process of the internalization of the > > > > verbal guidance > > > > of a more knowledgeable person, these functions become consciously > > directed > > > > attention, perception, emotions, imagination, and realistic thinking > > > > (i.e., become > > > > higher functions). > > > > > > > > But, there is also a training in cultural traditions of thinking (what > > > > Chaiklin calls > > > > functions) - in particular, realistic thinking can develop into several > > > > disciplines > > > > of logical/ analytical thinking such as Aristotelian logic, dialectical > > > > thinking, > > > > mathematics, and thinking in scientific concepts. An interesting > > question > > > > arises: > > > > Can someone think in scientific concepts but not be able to consciously > > > > direct > > > > their own thinking in scientific concepts? Such a person would have > > > > acquired > > > > higher level thinking in Chaiklin's use of the term but not in > > Vygotsky's > > > > use of > > > > the term 'higher functions'. Such a person would lack metacogntive > > > > awareness > > > > of how their own thought processes proceed. This would be a high level > > > > practitioner in a form of disciplinary thinking, who just robotically > > > > follows a > > > > procedural way of thinking. I think there are people like that. > > > > > > > > A second point to keep in mind, is that Vygotsky used the term higher > > > > psychological > > > > functions rather than higher mental functions. For the most part, the > > > > terms can be > > > > used inter-changeably. Higher psychological function is more > > appropriate > > > > when > > > > discussing consciously directed emotions. Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy > > is > > > > a practical application of Vygotsky and Luria's writings (by Donald > > > > Meichenbaum), that uses > > > > the verbal guidance of the therapist as a model for the client's > > self-talk > > > > to help the > > > > client control their own emotions and moods. Also, Vygotsky did say > > that > > > > different > > > > higher psychological functions can function together as psychological > > > > systems. > > > > > > > > I will look more closely at Gadamer's writings. If reciprocal > > interaction > > > > means > > > > that the cultural traditions are both internalized and changed by the > > > > individual - > > > > I agree. The latter part is the central point in my understanding of > > > > Vygotsky's theory of creativity. Through both internal dialogues > > > > (dialectics) and external conversations > > > > new ideas, art forms, inventions,emerge. > > > > > > > > Oh, one more point my understanding of the research on collaborative > > > > learning is that > > > > it is most effective when someone in the peer group knows something > > more > > > > than > > > > the others. That something more moves the group into the zone of > > proximal > > > > development. Peers might be at the same level in many areas, but as > > > > individuals > > > > they might have higher level skills that they can help the others > > acquire. > > > > For, example > > > > if a group is working on an original story, someone might be good at > > > > metaphorical > > > > thinking but not the best in grammar and spelling. Other people might > > be > > > > very good at grammar and/or spelling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 07:54:25 -0800 > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > Francine, > > > > > Your answer to my question moves me to return to the notion of > > > > "reciprocal > > > > > interaction" and my interest in Gadamer's philosophical > > hermeneutics. Is > > > > > it possible that Chaiklin's understanding of "functions" [as > > expressing > > > > > "traditions"] and your elaboration of Vygotsky's "functions" such as > > > > > "imagination and analytic thinking" are intertwined and that we can > > > > imagine > > > > > the person " a if" a weaver of tapesties that INCLUDE both > > understandings > > > > > of "functions" [crystallized and open-ended] The term "reciprocal > > > > > interaction" I am approaching as Simmel used this term. Francine, > > your > > > > > statement: > > > > > > > > > > "Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > > > consciously > > > > > directing > > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows for > > > > > creativity. > > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental functions > > > > (such > > > > > as imagination > > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as psychological > > > > > systems" > > > > > > > > > > I am asking if there is "space" or the possibility of opening a > > "zone" > > > > > where yours and Chaiklin's notions of "function" can mutually and > > > > > reciprocally enrich each "other" ? > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to reading your chapter [and book] > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 11:24 PM, larry smolucha < > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin in redefining Vygotsky's terminology (functions and > > zone > > > > of > > > > > > proximal > > > > > > development), creates a developmental model that is very static. > > > > Vygotsky, > > > > > > however, > > > > > > is very clear in describing a dynamic model of how elementary > > > > > > psychological functions > > > > > > develop into consciously directed higher psychological functions > > > > through > > > > > > the internalization > > > > > > of speech. This is very different from Chaiklin defining higher > > > > > > psychological (or mental) > > > > > > functions as higher level concepts involving more abstract > > thinking, > > > > such > > > > > > as scientific > > > > > > concepts - this is more like an cultural model of Piagetian > > concrete > > > > and > > > > > > formal operational > > > > > > thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you hit the mark when you said that Chaiklin's > > developmental > > > > model > > > > > > produces > > > > > > crystallized and sedimented psychological functions that are > > > > preordained > > > > > > by a particular > > > > > > culture. [This is different from Piaget's structuralist theory in > > which > > > > > > reasoning with scientific concepts naturally emerges at certain > > ages]. > > > > By > > > > > > making the term 'higher' simply refer to > > > > > > the higher skill level designated by a particular culture - it all > > > > becomes > > > > > > culturally relative. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky introduced something very different. The dynamics of > > > > consciously > > > > > > directing > > > > > > one's own thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and behaviors allows > > for > > > > > > creativity. > > > > > > Vygotsky also said that consciously directed higher mental > > functions > > > > (such > > > > > > as imagination > > > > > > and analytic thinking) can be used in collaboration as > > psychological > > > > > > systems. > > > > > > This is exactly what contemporary neuroscience has found in its > > > > > > brain-imaging > > > > > > studies (fMRI) of the prefrontal neocortex. > > > > > > > > > > > > My husband (Larry Smolucha) and I are writing a chapter titled > > > > > > "Neuropsychological > > > > > > Systems of Cultural Creativity" for the 2nd edition of Vygotsky and > > > > > > Creativity. > > > > > > Cathrene, Vera, and Ana suggested to their acquisitions editor that > > > > Larry > > > > > > and I expand > > > > > > that chapter into a book. (So yes indeed, I can cite my sources > > > > including > > > > > > Vygotsky's > > > > > > works in Russian or contemporary neuroscience.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:08:35 -0800 > > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Understanding "functions" within the "zone" of > > > > > > proximal development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seth Chaiklin's article has me reflecting on the meaning of > > > > "functions". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article's concluding comment is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the analysis presented here, the zone of proximal > > > > > > development > > > > > > > refers to the maturing functions that are relevant to the next > > age > > > > period > > > > > > > and that enable performance in collaborative situations that > > could > > > > not be > > > > > > > achieved independently. These *functions* are not created in > > > > > > interaction, > > > > > > > rather interaction provides conditions for identifying their > > > > existence > > > > > > and > > > > > > > the extent to which they have developed." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read this as indicating that the functions analyzed are > > > > "crystallized" > > > > > > or > > > > > > > "sedimented" forms that "objectively" exist as "generalized" > > > > structures. > > > > > > > Within "socially situated" settings individual persons will > > > > subjectively > > > > > > > move through a sequence of predictable "periods". Within modern > > > > social > > > > > > > situations "school" is a predictable social situation and it is > > the > > > > goal > > > > > > or > > > > > > > desire to develop "scientific concepts" in school settings. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore functions described as "higher mental functions" exist > > in > > > > > > > particular historical social situations of development, not > > > > universally > > > > > > > applicable situations. To be more specific "scientific concepts > > > > function > > > > > > > within school situations of development. As Chaiklin writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It is important to recognize that these periods are not > > reflecting a > > > > > > > biological necessity (because of genetic or other organic > > sources), > > > > even > > > > > > > though the development of higher psychological functions (e.g. , > > > > > > > perception, voluntary memory, speech, thinking) are dependent on > > > > these > > > > > > > natural conditions. .... Similarly, none of the psychological > > > > functions > > > > > > are > > > > > > > 'pure' in the sense of a biologically given module or faculty." > > > > [page 7] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words there exists an "objective" zone [a general zone] > > > > which > > > > > > > Chaiklin clarifies as a tripartite constellation of "present > > age", > > > > > > > "maturing function", and "next age" AS "the objective zone of > > > > proximal > > > > > > > development" [page 7] This zone is objective in the sense that it > > > > does > > > > > > not > > > > > > > refer to any individual child, but reflects [mirrors] the > > > > psychological > > > > > > > functions that need to be formed during a given age period of > > > > development > > > > > > > [and in particular the higher scientific or school concepts > > > > developed in > > > > > > > school situations.] In order to approach the more abstract > > concepts > > > > > > [which > > > > > > > are going "higher"] psychological functions need to develop > > first in > > > > > > order > > > > > > > to move to the next "period" or situation of concept development > > > > [verbal > > > > > > > thought]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaiklin then makes a clear statement of the characteristic of > > this > > > > > > > objective zone: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The 'objective' zone is not defined a priori, but reflects the > > > > > > structural > > > > > > > relationships that are *historically-constructed and objectively > > > > > > > constituted* in the historical period in which the child lives. > > One > > > > can > > > > > > say > > > > > > > that the zone for a given age period is normative, in that it > > > > > > > *reflects *[LP-mirrors] > > > > > > > the institutionalized demands and expectations that developed > > > > > > historically > > > > > > > in a particular societal *tradition of practice*. For example > > > > school age > > > > > > > children are expected to develop capabilities to reason with > > academic > > > > > > > (i.e., scientific) concepts. Individuals who do not develop this > > > > > > > *capability* can be said to *have* [LP - possess] a different > > > > > > intellectual > > > > > > > structure.... Reasoning with concepts is a specific > > manifestation of > > > > the > > > > > > > new-formations for this age ... " [page7] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words functions which develop are "new" formations > > which are > > > > > > > normative [ "crystallized" or "sedimented"]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question that I am left with is the relation of these > > normative > > > > > > > functions existing within particular social situations of > > development > > > > > > when > > > > > > > the social situations that now exist become the object of deep > > > > > > questioning? > > > > > > > This type of reflection and speculation is entering the realm of > > > > "what > > > > > > > if". What if the "objective" zone of proximal development and > > its > > > > "new" > > > > > > > formations [crystallized, sedimented] itself becomes the > > "object" of > > > > > > > inquiry? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope my train of thought is coherent? Chaiklin's article > > brought > > > > > > clarity > > > > > > > to my understanding of "functions" as key concepts for > > understanding > > > > the > > > > > > > meaning and sense of ZPD. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Feb 28 16:32:07 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:32:07 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Toulmin is always interesting, Francine. So "the West" is not the only bad guy in town? I am on with that. What is so disturbing is the national hallucination, whipped up by Fox News/Muroch,Koch etc. that "the west" is the only GOOD guy in town! The upcoming review of Medin and Bang's new book, *Who's Asking*, in* MCA*, might provide material for discussion that links up well with issues of culture variation, its "measurement," and the ability of an-other to prescribe the nature of the correct answers for purposes of social practice, such as contemporary academic science.... east. west.north.south. The article on a monument to mass murder/execution, as Henry noted, provides a window the issues as well. Again, resonances of Ukraine, and the inability to see bidirectionally. mike mike On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 3:54 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine > > Toulmin's book Human Understanding (1972) is a good read, as well. > He discusses how world views and scientific theories evolve, in contrast, > to the revolutionary change described by Thomas Kuhn (1967 The Structure > of Scientific > Revolutions). For both Toulmin and Kuhn, some problem has to arise that is > serious enough to warrant reconsidering, revising, or replacing a > preexisting > world view or scientific theory. A crisis will also do that. > > Theodore Ribot (1900) regarded utopian thinking as an important area of > creativity, > along with the arts, sciences, etc. Under utopian thinking he included the > designing > of political ideologies and governmental systems. Larry Smolucha and I > will address > this as well in our upcoming chapter. > > I mention it here because the appearance of the 'Sledgehammer thread' on > XMCA > has finally brought the topic of ISIS into our discussion. It is > interesting that it was > the topic of the desecration of archaeological antiquities that sparked > the first > discussion on XMCA of the ISIS crisis in the Middle East, and not the > burning, beheading, > and crucifixion of men, women, and children whether Muslim, Jew, or > Christian. > > In an earlier post, I said the old polemic of blaming every problem in the > world > today on Europe and the USA was not credible anymore. People certainly can > keep > quoting Edward Said and that line of thinking, but the gruesome reality of > what > ISIS and similar groups are doing has rendered that paradigm out of date. > The actions of ISIS and similar groups, are drowning out the talking > points of Said. > > By the way, Stephen Toulmin was my master's degree thesis sponsor in 1974, > at the University of Chicago. > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:11:11 -0800 > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > CC: xmca@potpourri.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed > > > > Mike, Greg, > > Alan Janik and Stephen Toulmin have written a book "Wittgenstein's > Vienna" > > which is there approach to historical ontology. They wrote this book as > an > > attempt to get "behind" the stangle hold of "disciplinary" silos recently > > discussed here. They are trying to re-create the "atmosphere" or "style" > > where scholars, journalists, scientists, artists were all reading and > > discussing the same topics and expanding each others horizons. > > And yes, this site does offer that "spaces" for multiple perspectives to > > challenge and liberate our prejudices. > > The book on Simmel with the title "Cultivating Minds" I believe > "captures" > > the approach of salon culture to generating "rich complex developing > > "themes" which may morph into "meanings" [as they become crystalized] > > Larry > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:37 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > This isn't a salon? > > > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > > > :-) > > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to > them > > > > soon. > > > > > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder > about > > > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" > because > > > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as > "Madam > > > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender > politics > > > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to > give > > > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > > > already > > > > have tenure...). > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > > > Simmel's > > > > > approach to being human, > > > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > > > thinker > > > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to > understanding of > > > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > > > century. > > > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within > Simmel's > > > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > > > "Form > > > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" > [2013]. The > > > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis > located > > > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > > > tradition > > > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, > Hegel, > > > > and > > > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > > > reception > > > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the > contamination > > > of > > > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey > what > > > the > > > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > > > further > > > > > expansion. > > > > > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > > > dialectic. > > > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > > > approach > > > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > > > theory. > > > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > > > interaction. > > > > > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on > "interrelations" > > > > and > > > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of > dialectical > > > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > > > world > > > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational > assumptions > > > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and > sociological > > > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > > > existence. > > > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > > > dualism > > > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > > > abstract > > > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > > > formulations > > > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > > > limited > > > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > > > from > > > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > > > general > > > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - > such > > > as > > > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel > draws a > > > > well > > > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms > reveal the > > > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena > and by > > > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts > that > > > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms > as > > > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" > and > > > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are > patterns of > > > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, > [the > > > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > > > dualities, > > > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous > categories > > > of > > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > > > introduces a > > > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension > between > > > on > > > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other > hand a > > > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is > present, > > > > but > > > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of > hope. > > > > > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but > polarities/dualities > > > are > > > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach > can be > > > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is > no > > > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are > identified in > > > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, > though > > > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > > > viewpoint > > > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has > a > > > > fixed > > > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in > dualism] > > > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > > > properties > > > > of > > > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > > > distances - > > > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > > > dualities > > > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary > and > > > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > > > Simmel > > > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The > "door" > > > in a > > > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > > > representing > > > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a > stronger > > > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than > does the > > > > > unstructured wall. > > > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything > separate > > > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > > > "natural" > > > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > > > This > > > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can > guide > > > > all > > > > > our activity. > > > > > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" > and not > > > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, > taking his > > > > cue > > > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > > > roving > > > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > > > flaneur. > > > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > > > Simmel's > > > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > > > "movement" > > > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > > > content > > > > > and offered no final word. > > > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > > > model > > > > of > > > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > > > enactments. > > > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and > standardized to > > > > fit > > > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more > than > > > a > > > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that > discipline. His > > > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > > > context. > > > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure > within > > > > his > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further > Simmel's > > > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a > hunger] > > > > FOR > > > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed > off > > > > from > > > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm > of the > > > > "as > > > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From ewall@umich.edu Sat Feb 28 17:54:56 2015 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:54:56 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referenced Gadamer special issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <834A72C4-291C-4DE8-A1CB-5AEFAAE7553E@umich.edu> For those that don't have easy access to this special issue, all the articles by Gadamer and more!! (smile) can be found in The Gadamer Reader edited by Palmer. Ed On Feb 28, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Larry, > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to them > soon. > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder about > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" because > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as "Madam > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender politics > involved considering that we were all male!). > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to give > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you already > have tenure...). > > -greg > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of Simmel's >> approach to being human, >> I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical thinker >> and a hopeful thinker. >> It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to understanding of >> "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th >> century. >> There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are >> re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within Simmel's >> scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: "Form >> and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" [2013]. The >> authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. >> >> They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis located >> within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a tradition >> with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, Hegel, and >> Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American reception >> and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the contamination of >> the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey what the >> authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its further >> expansion. >> >> The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the dialectic. >> This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". >> Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's approach >> and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical theory. >> Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of >> interaction. >> >> This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on "interrelations" and >> on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of dialectical >> "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND >> unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the world >> as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational assumptions >> include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". >> Simmel does make a connection between the biological and sociological >> realms as dialectically related between nature and human social existence. >> This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great dualism >> [between subject and object within modernity] >> >> Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's abstract >> conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key formulations >> of Simmel's work: >> >> 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a limited >> number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a >> potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived from >> application of these general polarities. >> >> 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most general >> to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - such as >> space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel draws a well >> known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms reveal the >> fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena and by >> presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. >> >> 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts that >> operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms as >> syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" and >> "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are patterns of >> interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, [the >> reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, dualities, >> or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, >> according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous categories of >> thought. >> >> 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships introduces a >> related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension between on >> the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other hand a >> potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human >> "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly >> dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is present, but >> this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of hope. >> >> For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from >> polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but polarities/dualities are >> "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach can be >> summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is no >> endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are identified in >> myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, though >> sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his viewpoint >> goes beyond these comparisons. >> >> "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has a fixed >> meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The >> subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in dualism] >> Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the properties of >> form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative distances - >> and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the dualities >> of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary and >> separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. Simmel >> uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For >> example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The "door" in a >> decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" representing >> the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a stronger >> feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than does the >> unstructured wall. >> Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything separate >> within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as "natural" >> and the other side as "humanly constructed". >> For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. This >> notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can guide all >> our activity. >> >> The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" and not >> systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. >> Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, taking his cue >> from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a roving >> sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a flaneur. >> Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" >> Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to Simmel's >> participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. >> >> What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the "movement" >> of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and >> relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and content >> and offered no final word. >> Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of >> 1] reciprocal effect >> 2] form and content >> >> Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a model of >> modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal enactments. >> Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and standardized to fit >> into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more than a >> sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that discipline. His >> context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this context. >> [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] >> His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a >> dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure within his >> approach. >> >> Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further Simmel's >> notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a hunger] FOR >> LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed off from >> the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm of the "as >> if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. >> >> But that also is for another post. >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 19:12:25 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 12:12:25 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul In-Reply-To: References: <0E48385C-9B7B-42A4-8B87-483F22ED26D5@gmail.com> <54F19279.1000706@open.ac.uk> <54F1E677.7050203@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: I urge people to actually look at the video clip that Helena uploaded. Highlights: a) An archaeologist from UCL who points out that at least some of the works are plaster casts (with rim bars sticking out in places!). The real stuff is undoubtedly being unloaded for cash on the black market. b) An art expert from the British Museum who points out that the Winged Lion of Ninevah is probably the real thing--and one of the very few pieces of North Iraq's heritage which was not taken either to Baghdad (where the Americans allowed very similar looting and vandalism after Saddam fell) or to London, Paris and Berlin. She says that this is "wonderful" for us, but "pretty rotten" for the locals. I had an old girlfriend who curated the Iranian art collection at the British Librarary for a few years. Shortly after Khomeini came to power, an Iranian student asked to see a priceless Persian manuscript, and my friend allowed her to take it off to a cubicle. After she left, my friend discovered that most of the pages of the work were missing; they later resurfaced in a museum in Teheran. We had a furious argument about what the student had done; my friend insisted that the BL was holding works "in trust" for the peoples of the world. That's all very well, but the British government is witholding the visas, and the costs of living in London ensure that the only way that a poor Iranian student can share her country's patrimony with brothers and sisters back home is to do what that Iranian student did. But...my friend argued...the stuff may be destroyed. The Iranian mullahs weren't iconoclasts, but they were already pretty careless and corrupt. True--but consider the fate of the Dunhuang manuscripts, stolen from the caves at Mogao in China by Aurel Stein and Paul Perriot. Some of them form the core of the British Library collection today. Others were bombed to smithereens in Dresden during the war. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 1 March 2015 at 07:46, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine: > > Shirin, > > The polemic that such violence in the name of Islam is a response > to European colonialism, capitalism, and the war in Iraq totally lacks > credibility. > There is no doubt that the war in Iraq created the opportunity for the > rise of ISIS. But everyone knows that the animosity between Sunni and > Shiite > predates European and U.S. presence in the Middle East. > > The pillaging of Constantinople and the Basilica of Hagia Sophia was > carried out by > Turks in the name of Islam (in 1453). While many Muslims demand that the > Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the land of Israel be returned to them, > using the > same logic how about returning Constantinople to the Europeans? > > This is now a post-Said world, thanks to ISIS. > > > From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:16:22 -0600 > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sledgehammers in Mosul > > > > Helena, > > What is the message here? Does the link speak for itself and what does it > > say? I am thinking about the "cultural vandalism" of the west in Iraq and > > other parts of the region, and of the complex history (in which the US > has > > played a central role) that has led to what is being depicted in this > > story. I do not mean to re-inscribe simplified west vs. middle east > > narratives, but I do want to question how we are being asked to interpret > > such acts. In this clip, as in so much media coverage of the region, such > > practices are rooted in the uniquely anti-democratic or anti-free speech > > tendencies of Islam. As Said famously argued, "we" are thereby exalted as > > all the more democratic and free. > > I wish the Western experts lamenting the destruction of artifacts in this > > clip had as loudly and boldly lamented the destruction of life in the > > brutal wars that led to this mess. > > Shirin > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Helena Worthen < > helenaworthen@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > http://bcove.me/1yo9t5x9 > > > > > > > > > Helena Worthen > > > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 28 23:11:34 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 07:11:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The moment represented as the present Message-ID: <1425193894332.40221@unm.edu> Hi all, I have sequestered this essay by Bloch (1956) "On the Present in Literature," which appeared to me as we were discussing the present moment a fortnight ago. Which sounds as strange to me as saying, "It was a long time ago that I read One Hundred Years of Solitude." But there you go, list-mates! This was particularly intriguing from the Bloch essay: "The specific premises in regard to art have apparently not been sufficiently worked out in Marxism, and vulgar Marxism often obstructs these premises completely. But the Western world, as long as it remains barred from the future, regards only the grand hotel called sadness as the field mostly for its muse, be it a frivolous or a comfortable one. Thus the present time, which is currently in an extreme transitional period, is reduced in its perspective, the latter being its most genuine poetical feature." With the subsequent poignant phrase: "The mere means turn out to be reified ends in itself and are thus praised, even those means that are not always unavoidable or still necessary." This reminded me about notions of prefiguration which has been in the conversations of taking action in the present moment. Also, by coincidences, there is much physical-contact relevancy to the recent Radiolab podcast, "La Mancha Screwjob" and its discussion of the meta-narrative. Hint: Confusion abounds. Again, for me anyway, this is all about Right Now, The Present Moment and how it slips through our fingers even if we might (try) place it in a pretzel hold. http://www.radiolab.org/story/la-mancha-screwjob/ What I found interesting is that it isn't the actual present moment Bloch is discussing, but the _portrayal_ of what he calls, "now-time." Which is the original Now and which is the copy Now? Kind regards, Annalisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Bloch_On The Present In Literature_1956.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 128176 bytes Desc: Bloch_On The Present In Literature_1956.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150301/421ed2fa/attachment.pdf From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Feb 28 23:31:43 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 01:31:43 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Mike Fox News has been praising the King of Jordan and the President of Egypt for their swift actions against ISIS. If someone tries to make the case that Muslim countries that fight ISIS are just Western pawns, that belies the fact that ISIS is a direct threat to all Middle Eastern countries (Sunni or Shia). I heard that one of their goals is to destroy the Kaba in Mecca. This is not the first time that an army waging war in the name of Islam wanted to conquer Mecca - the Maddi in the Sudan whose army beheaded Gordon at Khartoum planned to take Mecca. And here is another take on Putin's land grab in the Ukraine to build a land bridge from Russia to the Crimea: After the coup that occurred in the Ukraine (when the current government in Kiev came to power), I think that Putin was concerned that the Crimean peninsula was vulnerable to a hostile take over by Chechens or others acting in the name of Islam. Since the Black Sea ports are as important to Russia as the Panama Canal is to the USA, decisive action was taken.[In 1989, the USA invaded Panama to remove Noriega.] After the fall of the Kievan empire to the Ghengis Khan in the 1100's, Western Ukraine became part of Poland. It was called Red Ruthenia and the people were Ruthenians. The Cossack uprising in the 1600's was an attempt to unify the eastern Ukraine with Ruthenia. The Cossack's made an alliance with the Muslim Tartars and the Turkish Sultan. Stalin drew new national boundaries for Eastern Europe creating the Ukraine as we now know it. People have been fighting over this region for centuries. Sienkiewicz's historical novel With Fire and Sword is a vivid portrayal of the Cossack uprising in the 1600's - there is a terrific film version in Polish. One last point, it seems to me that sometimes the world goes nuts (or a region goes nuts). Tolstoy's War and Peace - Gone With the Wind - and King Arthur's comment at the end of Camelot about how those mad, crazy times have come back again. Freud tried to warn us about 'monsters from the Id' (terminology from Forbidden Planet - a great 1950's sci-fi movie). There is a point were violence becomes more than religious zeal or economic imperialism, when violence becomes blood lust. > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:32:07 -0800 > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed > > Toulmin is always interesting, Francine. > > So "the West" is not the only bad guy in town? I am on with that. > What is so disturbing is the national hallucination, whipped up by Fox > News/Muroch,Koch etc. that "the west" is the only GOOD guy in town! > > The upcoming review of Medin and Bang's new book, *Who's Asking*, in* MCA*, > might provide material for discussion that links up well with issues of > culture variation, its "measurement," and the ability of an-other to > prescribe the nature of the correct answers for purposes of social > practice, such as contemporary academic science.... east. west.north.south. > The article on a monument to mass murder/execution, as Henry noted, > provides a window the issues > as well. > > Again, resonances of Ukraine, and the inability to see bidirectionally. > mike > > > mike > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 3:54 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > > > Message from Francine > > > > Toulmin's book Human Understanding (1972) is a good read, as well. > > He discusses how world views and scientific theories evolve, in contrast, > > to the revolutionary change described by Thomas Kuhn (1967 The Structure > > of Scientific > > Revolutions). For both Toulmin and Kuhn, some problem has to arise that is > > serious enough to warrant reconsidering, revising, or replacing a > > preexisting > > world view or scientific theory. A crisis will also do that. > > > > Theodore Ribot (1900) regarded utopian thinking as an important area of > > creativity, > > along with the arts, sciences, etc. Under utopian thinking he included the > > designing > > of political ideologies and governmental systems. Larry Smolucha and I > > will address > > this as well in our upcoming chapter. > > > > I mention it here because the appearance of the 'Sledgehammer thread' on > > XMCA > > has finally brought the topic of ISIS into our discussion. It is > > interesting that it was > > the topic of the desecration of archaeological antiquities that sparked > > the first > > discussion on XMCA of the ISIS crisis in the Middle East, and not the > > burning, beheading, > > and crucifixion of men, women, and children whether Muslim, Jew, or > > Christian. > > > > In an earlier post, I said the old polemic of blaming every problem in the > > world > > today on Europe and the USA was not credible anymore. People certainly can > > keep > > quoting Edward Said and that line of thinking, but the gruesome reality of > > what > > ISIS and similar groups are doing has rendered that paradigm out of date. > > The actions of ISIS and similar groups, are drowning out the talking > > points of Said. > > > > By the way, Stephen Toulmin was my master's degree thesis sponsor in 1974, > > at the University of Chicago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:11:11 -0800 > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > CC: xmca@potpourri.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Further reflections on hope as the not yet formed > > > > > > Mike, Greg, > > > Alan Janik and Stephen Toulmin have written a book "Wittgenstein's > > Vienna" > > > which is there approach to historical ontology. They wrote this book as > > an > > > attempt to get "behind" the stangle hold of "disciplinary" silos recently > > > discussed here. They are trying to re-create the "atmosphere" or "style" > > > where scholars, journalists, scientists, artists were all reading and > > > discussing the same topics and expanding each others horizons. > > > And yes, this site does offer that "spaces" for multiple perspectives to > > > challenge and liberate our prejudices. > > > The book on Simmel with the title "Cultivating Minds" I believe > > "captures" > > > the approach of salon culture to generating "rich complex developing > > > "themes" which may morph into "meanings" [as they become crystalized] > > > Larry > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:37 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > This isn't a salon? > > > > We lack class I guess, along with inadequate tastes and intellects! > > > > :-) > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Larry, > > > > > Again, this is a fantastic redux, so thanks. And also thanks for the > > > > > Gadamer special issue. I've downloaded and hope to be able to get to > > them > > > > > soon. > > > > > > > > > > A somewhat sideways comment on the Simmel post - it makes me wonder > > about > > > > > the possibility of a "salon culture" in the U.S. today. It seems an > > > > > impossibility among adults for too many reasons (I say "adults" > > because > > > > > when I was in high school, a group of us referred to ourselves as > > "Madam > > > > > Geoffrin's Salon" - apparently entirely oblivious to the gender > > politics > > > > > involved considering that we were all male!). > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, it is difficult to imagine any group of people being able to > > give > > > > > an afternoon once a week to discussion of important matters. The only > > > > > matters that seem to matter today are making money. > > > > > > > > > > But maybe there are spaces for this in academic life? (esp. if you > > > > already > > > > > have tenure...). > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Larry Purss > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > This is an extended commentary introducing a few key concepts of > > > > > Simmel's > > > > > > approach to being human, > > > > > > I thought I would post this reflection on Simmel as a dialectical > > > > thinker > > > > > > and a hopeful thinker. > > > > > > It may be of interest to a few on this site to add to > > understanding of > > > > > > "salon culture" in the Germanic cities at the beginning of the 20th > > > > > > century. > > > > > > There is a re-emerging interest by Simmel scholars who are > > > > > > re-searching the centrality of the theme of dialectic within > > Simmel's > > > > > > scholarly explorations. This is the subject of a new book, titled: > > > > "Form > > > > > > and Dialectic in Simmel's Sociology. A New Interpretation" > > [2013]. The > > > > > > authors are Henry Schermer and David Jury. > > > > > > > > > > > > They make a case that what Simmel offers is a mode of analysis > > located > > > > > > within the dialectical tradition within German social thought, a > > > > > tradition > > > > > > with roots extending from Heraclitus and Paramedes through Kant, > > Hegel, > > > > > and > > > > > > Marx. This dialectical thread has been hidden in Anglo-American > > > > reception > > > > > > and rendering a Simmel cleansed of what was seen as the > > contamination > > > > of > > > > > > the dialectic within his work. The aim of this book is to convey > > what > > > > the > > > > > > authors see as the core of Simmel's method and the potential of its > > > > > further > > > > > > expansion. > > > > > > > > > > > > The core concept is "Wechselwirkung" [reciprocal effect] and the > > > > > dialectic. > > > > > > This has a similar sense to Zinchenko's concept of "oscillation". > > > > > > Wechselwirkung or recirocal effect is ever present in Simmel's > > > > approach > > > > > > and the movement at the core of his "relational" and "dialectical > > > > theory. > > > > > > Wechselwirkung AS "social interaction" is his central concept of > > > > > > interaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > This overarching conception is a Spinozian emphasis on > > "interrelations" > > > > > and > > > > > > on "process" rather than discrete "things". This notion of > > dialectical > > > > > > "truth" as neither absolute nor relative. Both separations AND > > > > > > unifications are significant aspects of his conceptual truth of the > > > > world > > > > > > as mediated by a plurality of concepts. All such relational > > assumptions > > > > > > include an open-endedness of human "possibilities". > > > > > > Simmel does make a connection between the biological and > > sociological > > > > > > realms as dialectically related between nature and human social > > > > > existence. > > > > > > This is Simmel's first great dualism, within which the second great > > > > > dualism > > > > > > [between subject and object within modernity] > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry Schermer and David Jury elaborate what they see as Simmel's > > > > > abstract > > > > > > conceptual model and method. In outline they make these key > > > > formulations > > > > > > of Simmel's work: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1] Simmel proceeds dialectically with two sets of concepts: i] a > > > > limited > > > > > > number of GENERAL polarities or dualities. ii ] identification of a > > > > > > potentially unlimited number of social and cultural 'forms' derived > > > > from > > > > > > application of these general polarities. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2] The former general categories are seen as a hierarchy from most > > > > > general > > > > > > to least general dualities, including modalities and categories - > > such > > > > as > > > > > > space and time - drawn from Kant and Hegel and others. Simmel > > draws a > > > > > well > > > > > > known distinction between "form" and "contents". These forms > > reveal the > > > > > > fundamental patterns, and causes, and implications, of phenomena > > and by > > > > > > presenting examples of these forms he elaborates his method. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3] the polarities consist of pairs of "contradictory" concepts > > that > > > > > > operate dialectically, with outcomes in cultural and social forms > > as > > > > > > syntheses. For Simmel, recurring "social forms" such as "conflict" > > and > > > > > > "co-operation" or "superordination" and "subordination" are > > patterns of > > > > > > interaction analyzable as the dialectical outcome and synthesis, > > [the > > > > > > reciprocal effects] of the combination of numerous polarities, > > > > dualities, > > > > > > or "continua" [these related terms reflect variations in emphasis, > > > > > > according to context, of rejection of previous dichotomous > > categories > > > > of > > > > > > thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4] This relational epistemology emphasizing interrelationships > > > > > introduces a > > > > > > related dialectical operation of dualities such as the tension > > between > > > > on > > > > > > the one hand "human fulfillment and creativity" and on the other > > hand a > > > > > > potentially oppressive "objective culture"- which leads to human > > > > > > "estrangement" and "alienation" - which for Simmel is thoroughly > > > > > > dialectical implying an open-endedness of human capacities is > > present, > > > > > but > > > > > > this has more of a "blues hope" than the Enlightenment concept of > > hope. > > > > > > > > > > > > For Simmel it is crucial we differentiate "dualism" from > > > > > > polarities/dualities. Dualism is dichotomies but > > polarities/dualities > > > > are > > > > > > "continua". Simmel opposes "fixed" categories. Simmel's approach > > can be > > > > > > summed up as involving "a unity of opposites". For Simmel there is > > no > > > > > > endpoint or a final synthesis. Fusions of polarities are > > identified in > > > > > > myriad social forms, without a fixed or final synthesis. Simmel, > > though > > > > > > sometimes linked with Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Bergson, his > > > > > viewpoint > > > > > > goes beyond these comparisons. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Reciprocity" the core concept for Simmel implies that nothing has > > a > > > > > fixed > > > > > > meaning and that meaning arises only through interaction. The > > > > > > subjective-objective duality [not pre-determined sides as in > > dualism] > > > > > > Simmel sees as inherent in all social forms. Simmel sees the > > > > properties > > > > > of > > > > > > form and the meanings of things AS a function of the relative > > > > distances - > > > > > > and the routes taken - between things. Life as the play of the > > > > dualities > > > > > > of [distance and proximity] [separation and connection] [boundary > > and > > > > > > separation] as hungers of the life force drives Simmel's analysis. > > > > Simmel > > > > > > uses metaphor as a basic GENERAL TOOL in his analysis of forms. For > > > > > > example the "bridge" correlates "separateness and unity" The > > "door" > > > > in a > > > > > > decisive manner reciprocally imagines "opening and closing" > > > > representing > > > > > > the boundary between spaces. The doors "closure" provides a > > stronger > > > > > > feeling of isolation against everything outside the space than > > does the > > > > > > unstructured wall. > > > > > > Hmanity can both imagine everything connected and everything > > separate > > > > > > within reciprocal oscillation.Most often one side is imagined as > > > > > "natural" > > > > > > and the other side as "humanly constructed". > > > > > > For Simmel, humans are BOTH "connecting" AND "bordering" creatures. > > > > This > > > > > > notion of human beings suggests Simmel's general method which can > > guide > > > > > all > > > > > > our activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > The criticism of Simmel's work is that it was "impressionistic" > > and not > > > > > > systematized but these may be caricatures of his work. > > > > > > Lukac's belittledSimmel's work as "impressionistic". Frisby, > > taking his > > > > > cue > > > > > > from Walter Benjamin calling Baudelaire as a "flaneur" [merely a > > > > roving > > > > > > sketcher of city life as he wandered the streets] called Simmel a > > > > > flaneur. > > > > > > Randall Collins called Simmel a "salon entertainer" > > > > > > Theodor Adorno saw Simmel as "a bourgeois aesthete" alluding to > > > > Simmel's > > > > > > participation in artistic and literary salons in Berlin. > > > > > > > > > > > > What this actually shows is that Simmel was most focused on the > > > > > "movement" > > > > > > of thought itself characterized by paradox, duality, dialectic, and > > > > > > relationism. Simmel was always revising his concepts of form and > > > > content > > > > > > and offered no final word. > > > > > > Simmel's work presents a "unity" using the twin notions of > > > > > > 1] reciprocal effect > > > > > > 2] form and content > > > > > > > > > > > > Simmel is presenting a particular form of sociocultural order as a > > > > model > > > > > of > > > > > > modernity centered around "differentiation" within reciprocal > > > > enactments. > > > > > > Simmel's work was not as systematic and disciplined and > > standardized to > > > > > fit > > > > > > into the emerging academy with its closed boundaries. He was more > > than > > > > a > > > > > > sociologist. and cannot be "housed" or enclosed in that > > discipline. His > > > > > > context was the "salon culture" and he must be read within this > > > > context. > > > > > > [see Wittgenstein's Vienna for a picture into salon culture] > > > > > > His informality is deceptive. and the new re-search on Simmel as a > > > > > > dialectical scholar shows how blind others are to the structure > > within > > > > > his > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > Simmel's last book [1918] "The View of Life" develops further > > Simmel's > > > > > > notion of "life" as the vital force that moves us as an urge [a > > hunger] > > > > > FOR > > > > > > LIFE and the reciprocal life as a sense of "deadness" when closed > > off > > > > > from > > > > > > the vitality of life as open ended. This for Simmel is the realm > > of the > > > > > "as > > > > > > if" [similar to Bloch's Philosophy of Hope]. > > > > > > > > > > > > But that also is for another post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object > > > > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object > that creates history. Ernst Boesch. From annalisa@unm.edu Sat Feb 28 23:58:37 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 07:58:37 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The moment represented as the present In-Reply-To: <1425193894332.40221@unm.edu> References: <1425193894332.40221@unm.edu> Message-ID: <1425196716703.1956@unm.edu> Yes, so? perhaps I should have titled my subject header "On the Present in Wrestling" with regards to representing the present moment?