From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Aug 3 00:44:15 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 16:44:15 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Anthropology of Youth and Childhood teaching resources In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102350A64@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks, Henry. We're trying to bring out "Between Lessons" in Korean, as a kind of pamphlet. As you can see, it's a little polemical: in South Korea one of the key problems we have in interpreting the Zone of Proximal Development is NOT the confusion with the "Zone of Proximal Learning" that we see in other countries (see especially Dynamic Assessment, and the whole tendency to confuse the ZPD with different forms of corrective feedback). What we get is really the confusion of the ZPD with a very generalized form of "collaboration" (some radical teachers even argue that any division of labor in the classroom at all is exploitative and defeats the purpose of internalization). So we have to worry a little about "Clever Hans", the horse that supposedly "counted" in the nineteenth century. You ask Hans what three plus one is, and the horse begins to pound its forehoof--one, two, three, four---and then you give Hans a big smile and say, "VERY good! CLEV-er Hans!" and not surprisingly Hans stops. But YOU are the one doing the counting, not Hans. In the same way, the kind of "child centred" education where the teacher essentially organizes the task from beginning to end without any obvious "division of labor" is really the most stark division of labor possible--a division which by making the organizer's role implicit makes it harder than ever for the child to internalize it. David Kellogg On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:29 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Greg and Rod, > I was reading through a nice, long article on the ZPD co-authored and > proferred for the chat by David Kellogg some weeks back: > > > http://www.academia.edu/13725202/Between_Lessons_The_Zone_of_Proximal_Development_in_Korean_Schools > < > http://www.academia.edu/13725202/Between_Lessons_The_Zone_of_Proximal_Development_in_Korean_Schools > > > > On page 11 of the article I found the following: > > "Vygotsky also uses two very different methods in his book on imagination > and creativity. In one, Vygotsky uses children?s drawings, songs by street > children, and their spontaneous literary productions in class theatre and > in class newspapers to try to understand what child imagination is like and > how adult intervention in the creative process can build on it rather than > substitute itself for it. In the other, he discusses Tolstoy?s experiments > with teaching children literary language. Despite Tolstoy?s claim that he > is ?learning? from the children, we actually learn a lot more about > Tolstoy?s expectations than we do about the children?s independent > capabilities.? > > As a parent, as a teacher, and as a teacher educator, I have struggled for > a long with how we can both respect creative youth and be knowledgeable > adults, The quote, for me, resonates with what Greg proffered from the > Anthropology of Youth and Childhood group. > > Henry > > > > On Jul 30, 2015, at 12:45 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > Many thanks Greg - some really useful films here. I am sure our students > will find much to discuss among them. > > Rod > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > > Sent: 30 July 2015 05:11 > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Anthropology of Youth and Childhood teaching resources > > > > Interesting stuff here: > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAJWMx-D8EYn3orNjsCy9k3F2atP31hrZ > > > > It is a youtube channel of teaching resources assembled by the > Anthropology of Youth and Childhood group. > > > > It includes some ethnographies of kids from around the globe as well as > a recent redo of the classic black/white doll study. > > > > Hopefully it will be of interest to some... > > > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Tue Aug 4 09:24:56 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 10:24:56 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Anthropology of Youth and Childhood teaching resources In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102350A64@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1DCC5005-576E-4999-A77E-4095D919614C@gmail.com> David, I just had an ahah moment that is probably obvious to most on this chat that it might be productive to connect the ZoPed to Boundary Object: In a general sense your article is not just about schooling, but all contexts with a potential for creative collaboration. So, the assymetry of power inherent in adult/child, for democracy?s sake, must be dealt with in ALL contexts where leadership is an issue. The video link from Greg invites one to have more respect for youth than for Clever Hans. Actually, it?s the gullibility of the human animal, at least some of it wrought by schooling, that never ceases to amaze. Hence, cooperation is so much easier than collaboration in the Zone. Development has been stunted in a real, tragic sense. Oy. Have a great day, everybody. I?m happy, because I am going to a feast at Santo Domingo Pueblo and get some that that good green and red New Mexico chile. Someday maybre some XMCA project will bring some of you here? There?s more to the place than green and red chile. Henry Here?s the ?child-centered? > On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:44 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Thanks, Henry. We're trying to bring out "Between Lessons" in Korean, as a > kind of pamphlet. As you can see, it's a little polemical: in South Korea > one of the key problems we have in interpreting the Zone of Proximal > Development is NOT the confusion with the "Zone of Proximal Learning" that > we see in other countries (see especially Dynamic Assessment, and the whole > tendency to confuse the ZPD with different forms of corrective feedback). > What we get is really the confusion of the ZPD with a very generalized form > of "collaboration" (some radical teachers even argue that any division of > labor in the classroom at all is exploitative and defeats the purpose of > internalization). > > So we have to worry a little about "Clever Hans", the horse that supposedly > "counted" in the nineteenth century. You ask Hans what three plus one is, > and the horse begins to pound its forehoof--one, two, three, four---and > then you give Hans a big smile and say, "VERY good! CLEV-er Hans!" and not > surprisingly Hans stops. But YOU are the one doing the counting, not Hans. > In the same way, the kind of "child centred" education where the teacher > essentially organizes the task from beginning to end without any obvious > "division of labor" is really the most stark division of labor possible--a > division which by making the organizer's role implicit makes it harder than > ever for the child to internalize it. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:29 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Greg and Rod, >> I was reading through a nice, long article on the ZPD co-authored and >> proferred for the chat by David Kellogg some weeks back: >> >> >> http://www.academia.edu/13725202/Between_Lessons_The_Zone_of_Proximal_Development_in_Korean_Schools >> < >> http://www.academia.edu/13725202/Between_Lessons_The_Zone_of_Proximal_Development_in_Korean_Schools >>> >> >> On page 11 of the article I found the following: >> >> "Vygotsky also uses two very different methods in his book on imagination >> and creativity. In one, Vygotsky uses children?s drawings, songs by street >> children, and their spontaneous literary productions in class theatre and >> in class newspapers to try to understand what child imagination is like and >> how adult intervention in the creative process can build on it rather than >> substitute itself for it. In the other, he discusses Tolstoy?s experiments >> with teaching children literary language. Despite Tolstoy?s claim that he >> is ?learning? from the children, we actually learn a lot more about >> Tolstoy?s expectations than we do about the children?s independent >> capabilities.? >> >> As a parent, as a teacher, and as a teacher educator, I have struggled for >> a long with how we can both respect creative youth and be knowledgeable >> adults, The quote, for me, resonates with what Greg proffered from the >> Anthropology of Youth and Childhood group. >> >> Henry >> >> >>> On Jul 30, 2015, at 12:45 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> Many thanks Greg - some really useful films here. I am sure our students >> will find much to discuss among them. >>> Rod >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> On Behalf Of Greg Thompson >>> Sent: 30 July 2015 05:11 >>> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Anthropology of Youth and Childhood teaching resources >>> >>> Interesting stuff here: >>> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAJWMx-D8EYn3orNjsCy9k3F2atP31hrZ >>> >>> It is a youtube channel of teaching resources assembled by the >> Anthropology of Youth and Childhood group. >>> >>> It includes some ethnographies of kids from around the globe as well as >> a recent redo of the classic black/white doll study. >>> >>> Hopefully it will be of interest to some... >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> ________________________________ >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< >> http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >>> >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely >> for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the >> intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the >> information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. >> If you have received this email in error please let the sender know >> immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not >> necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts >> no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails >> and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its >> attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied >> by an official order form. >>> >> >> From smago@uga.edu Wed Aug 5 03:15:51 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 10:15:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: [English ed] A call for manuscripts that might be relevant to... In-Reply-To: <936296709726709-160279383995116@groups.facebook.com> References: <936296709726709-160279383995116@groups.facebook.com> <936296709726709-160279383995116@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: From: Jory Brass [mailto:notification+5_-uvj_m@facebookmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 7:54 PM To: English ed Subject: [English ed] A call for manuscripts that might be relevant to... Jory Brass August 4 at 7:53pm A call for manuscripts that might be relevant to some researchers in this group: Unheard Learners: Children and Youth Experiences in Neoliberal Schools Call for Manuscripts The Journal of Critical Education Policy Studies Special Issue: December 2015 Guest Editors: Debbie Sonu, Hunter College, City University of New York & Julie Gorlewski, State University of New York at New Paltz Chief and Managing Editor: Professor Dave Hill, Research Professor of Education at Anglia Ruskin University, Chelmsford, England The Journal of Critical Education Policy Studies (JCEPS) and guest editors Debbie Sonu and Julie Gorlewski are seeking manuscripts for a special issue that is scheduled for publication in December 2015. This special issue, entitled ?Unheard Learners: Children and Youth Experiences in Neoliberal Schools,? aims to feature the work of established and emerging scholars from a variety of disciplines who explore school reform and schooling experiences from the standpoint of children and youth in public and private K-12 institutions from any socio-economic, cultural, or geographic location within the United States. We invite research articles that draw from empirical work, as well as conceptual or theoretical papers that use in some form the direct perspectives of children and youth as learners in the current context of neoliberal school cultures, including but not limited to issues of testing, discipline, relationships, authority, states of being, curriculum, and pedagogy. Contributors may take up a wide range of theoretical frameworks, including feminist, Marxist, postcolonial, poststructural, psychoanalytic, critical, and historical lenses to present divergent perspectives that link children and youth with the urgent and immediate changes that are impacting schools today. Full manuscripts of 6000-8000 words are expected for submission. Timeline: Submission Deadline: October 1, 2015 Notification by October 15 Reviews returned by October 15 Final Revisions due November 1 Publication date December 7 All submissions must strictly adhere to JCEPS style guidelines: www.jceps.com/submissions. Manuscripts must have a title, name of author(s), university/institutional affiliation including city, state (if USA), country, abstract (150 words), key words (5-7), main document, references, and at the end of the manuscript, author/writer details, and correspondence information. All inquiries can be made to either dsonu@hunter.cuny.edu or gorlewsj@newpaltz.edu Submissions and Style Guidelines www.jceps.com Thank you for making a submission to the Journal for Critical Education Policy Studies. It is the au... Like Comment Share [https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yk/r/_2faPUZhPI6.png] English ed [https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-1/p100x100/11427176_10153269350050399_1380522003700717979_n.jpg?oh=78d55e0cf31470a1bb09f241f7f7c6b9&oe=564D752E&__gda__=1448618270_3054d08c546a8bb3db78970011066685] Jory Brass August 4 at 7:53pm A call for manuscripts that might be relevant to some researchers in this group: Unheard Learners: Children and Youth Experiences in Neoliberal Schools Call for Manuscripts The Journal of Critical Education Policy Studies Special Issue: December 2015 Guest Editors: Debbie Sonu, Hunter College, City University of New York & Julie Gorlewski, State University of New York at New Paltz Chief and Managing Editor: Professor Dave Hill, Research Professor of Education at Anglia Ruskin University, Chelmsford, England The Journal of Critical Education Policy Studies (JCEPS) and guest editors Debbie Sonu and Julie Gorlewski are seeking manuscripts for a special issue that is scheduled for publication in December 2015. This special issue, entitled ?Unheard Learners: Children and Youth Experiences in Neoliberal Schools,? aims to feature the work of established and emerging scholars from a variety of disciplines who explore school reform and schooling experiences from the standpoint of children and youth in public and private K-12 institutions from any socio-economic, cultural, or geographic location within the United States. We invite research articles that draw from empirical work, as well as conceptual or theoretical papers that use in some form the direct perspectives of children and youth as learners in the current context of neoliberal school cultures, including but not limited to issues of testing, discipline, relationships, authority, states of being, curriculum, and pedagogy. Contributors may take up a wide range of theoretical frameworks, including feminist, Marxist, postcolonial, poststructural, psychoanalytic, critical, and historical lenses to present divergent perspectives that link children and youth with the urgent and immediate changes that are impacting schools today. Full manuscripts of 6000-8000 words are expected for submission. Timeline: Submission Deadline: October 1, 2015 Notification by October 15 Reviews returned by October 15 Final Revisions due November 1 Publication date December 7 All submissions must strictly adhere to JCEPS style guidelines: www.jceps.com/submissions. Manuscripts must have a title, name of author(s), university/institutional affiliation including city, state (if USA), country, abstract (150 words), key words (5-7), main document, references, and at the end of the manuscript, author/writer details, and correspondence information. All inquiries can be made to either dsonu@hunter.cuny.edu or gorlewsj@newpaltz.edu [https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCRHsi1OUGRYe_t&w=158&h=158&url=https%3A%2F%2Fs0.wp.com%2Fi%2Fblank.jpg] Submissions and Style Guidelines www.jceps.com Thank you for making a submission to the Journal for Critical Education Policy Studies. It is the au... [https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yM/r/aL-TjjYppK9.png] Like [https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yK/r/pydUbhpFodk.png] Comment [https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yU/r/1xTlxxl7Lck.png] Share View Post Edit Email Settings Reply to this email to comment on this post. This message was sent to smago@uga.edu. If you don't want to receive these emails from Facebook in the future, please unsubscribe. Facebook, Inc., Attention: Department 415, PO Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303 [https://www.facebook.com/email_open_log_pic.php?mid=c2b4db1G4b761bG51c7c7f945a22G96Gd3ec] From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 6 05:16:39 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us Message-ID: 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after about as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just before like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone days when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. Mike -- Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, Ecological Niche, 2008) From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 6 05:28:28 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 22:28:28 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Help with Russian translation Message-ID: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> Could some of our wonderful Russophiles criticise my translation of the following excerpt: *?*??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ??? ???????????? ?? ????? ??????? ????????? ? ????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????????, ? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????, ????????????? ??? ????????????? ?????????????. ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ??????? ? ???????? ????????? "?????????" ???????????????? ??????? ????????, ? ?? ????????, ?? ????????, ?? ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????; ????????? ????????????? ????????????, ? ?? ??????????????? ????????. which I have translated as: The real basis of a person?s personality is the totality of their life-projects, which are social by nature, but life-projects which are realised, and they are realised by their activity, or more precisely, by the totality of their various activities.Here we have in mind in particular the activities of the subject that are initial ?units? of the psychological analysis of personality ? not actions, not operations, not psychophysiological functions or the blocks of these functions, which characterise activity, but not directly personality. But there are parts of this which are really unclear to me, and perhaps a better translation would clear it up. The standard English translation does not help. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Aug 6 09:10:02 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 11:10:02 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please post this on XMCA: Message from Francine: Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary bombing) could kill 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six weeks to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to kill 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila and 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is from 3 million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). This figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the Japanese Army. This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Tokyo. When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day is the suffering any less? > Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > > 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after about > as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just before > like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone days > when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. > Mike > > > > -- > > Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, > Ecological Niche, 2008) From rsanto@indiana.edu Thu Aug 6 09:30:52 2015 From: rsanto@indiana.edu (Rafi Santo) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 12:30:52 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here is more disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans to engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know will result in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. The asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing campaigns of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both obscure in moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical record (at least in case of the Asian Holocaust). While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center one on hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and attendant loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar qualities in terms of the meanings that are linked to them. On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha wrote: > Please post this on XMCA: > > Message from Francine: > > Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary > bombing) could kill > 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six weeks > to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to kill > 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila and > 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of > civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is from 3 > million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). This > figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the > Japanese Army. > > This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in Hiroshima, > Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > > When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day is the > suffering any less? > > > > > > Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > > From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > > > > 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after > about > > as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just > before > > like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > > > It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone > days > > when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. > > Mike > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > > ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, > > Ecological Niche, 2008) > > -- Rafi Santo Project Lead Hive Research Lab hiveresearchlab.org A project of Indiana University and New York University Indiana University - Learning Sciences From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:51:10 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 15:51:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Rafi and Francine: Thank you. This from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, but there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking on: 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of prime minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the the ?Asian holocaust?, and 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among Japanese. Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the rape of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our peril, especially the history that puts us in a bad light. Henry > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo wrote: > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here is more > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans to > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know will result > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. The > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing campaigns > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both obscure in > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical record (at > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center one on > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and attendant > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar qualities in > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha > wrote: > >> Please post this on XMCA: >> >> Message from Francine: >> >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary >> bombing) could kill >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six weeks >> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to kill >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila and >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is from 3 >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). This >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the >> Japanese Army. >> >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in Hiroshima, >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. >> >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day is the >> suffering any less? >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us >>> >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after >> about >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just >> before >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. >>> >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone >> days >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) >> >> > > > > -- > > Rafi Santo > Project Lead > Hive Research Lab > hiveresearchlab.org > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Aug 6 15:01:53 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 16:01:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help with Russian translation In-Reply-To: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> References: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> Message-ID: <29F5F39D-5277-45E8-9EB3-DB10B1CD8D5A@gmail.com> Andy, Sorry, I am absolutely unqualified to translate this! But I am wondering if the ?life projects? Vygotsky had in mind were akin to what Vera John-Steiner has called in her book Creative Collaboration ?network of enterprises? and what you call ?life projects? in your intro the recent book on collaborative projects that you edited and to which Vera has contributed. I doubt this helps with the translation, but I am hoping that I am on the right path to understanding the passage. Henry > On Aug 6, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Could some of our wonderful Russophiles criticise my translation of the following excerpt: > > *?*??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? > ???????????? ??? ???????????? ?? ????? ??????? > ????????? ? ????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????????, > ? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????, > ????????????? ??? ????????????? ?????????????. > > ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ??????? > ? ???????? ????????? "?????????" ???????????????? > ??????? ????????, ? ?? ????????, ?? ????????, ?? > ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????; > ????????? ????????????? ????????????, ? ?? > ??????????????? ????????. > > which I have translated as: > > The real basis of a person?s personality is the > totality of their life-projects, which are social by > nature, but life-projects which are realised, and > they are realised by their activity, or more > precisely, by the totality of their various > activities.Here we have in mind in particular the > activities of the subject that are initial ?units? > of the psychological analysis of personality ? not > actions, not operations, not psychophysiological > functions or the blocks of these functions, which > characterise activity, but not directly personality. > > But there are parts of this which are really unclear to me, and perhaps a better translation would clear it up. The standard English translation does not help. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:04:37 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:04:37 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help with Russian translation In-Reply-To: <29F5F39D-5277-45E8-9EB3-DB10B1CD8D5A@gmail.com> References: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> <29F5F39D-5277-45E8-9EB3-DB10B1CD8D5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Andy: I think this somewhat over-literal translation might help: "The real (or the actual, factual--DK) basis of the human personality consists of the totality of its social-in-nature relations to the world; however, these are relations which are realized, and realized in their activeness, or more precisely, in the totality of their multi-formed activities. We have in view the subjective activeness which is the source of the "units" for the psychological analysis of the personality: not actions, not operations, and not psycho-physiological functions or building-blocks of these functions; the latter characterize activity and not directly personality." I'm cheating a little here, both by being over-literal and also by distinguishing between subjective activeness and the activities which realize it. But I think that is Vygotsky's intention. First of all, to identify the basis of human personality in relations with the world taken as a whole, and then to distinguish between the personality and the specific actions that apparently make it up but which cannot exhaust its potential. David Kellogg On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Andy, > Sorry, I am absolutely unqualified to translate this! But I am wondering > if the ?life projects? Vygotsky had in mind were akin to what Vera > John-Steiner has called in her book Creative Collaboration ?network of > enterprises? and what you call ?life projects? in your intro the recent > book on collaborative projects that you edited and to which Vera has > contributed. I doubt this helps with the translation, but I am hoping that > I am on the right path to understanding the passage. > Henry > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > Could some of our wonderful Russophiles criticise my translation of the > following excerpt: > > > > *?*??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? > > ???????????? ??? ???????????? ?? ????? ??????? > > ????????? ? ????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????????, > > ? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????, > > ????????????? ??? ????????????? ?????????????. > > > > ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ??????? > > ? ???????? ????????? "?????????" ???????????????? > > ??????? ????????, ? ?? ????????, ?? ????????, ?? > > ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????; > > ????????? ????????????? ????????????, ? ?? > > ??????????????? ????????. > > > > which I have translated as: > > > > The real basis of a person?s personality is the > > totality of their life-projects, which are social by > > nature, but life-projects which are realised, and > > they are realised by their activity, or more > > precisely, by the totality of their various > > activities.Here we have in mind in particular the > > activities of the subject that are initial ?units? > > of the psychological analysis of personality ? not > > actions, not operations, not psychophysiological > > functions or the blocks of these functions, which > > characterise activity, but not directly personality. > > > > But there are parts of this which are really unclear to me, and perhaps > a better translation would clear it up. The standard English translation > does not help. > > > > Andy > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:33:54 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. Unlike my generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just beginning to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also had a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics undergraduate inducted into the army. Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read John Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the majority of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb should be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but that somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert Oppenheimer. But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of Japan, and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it cost. When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by the fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like Luc, interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off from school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo had been. We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps some day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for similar horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's right: comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder of completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie president and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole city into six million degrees of heat. At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded the bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. David Kellogg the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the museum in the Peace Park, I learned that On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, Rafi and Francine: > > Thank you. This from the NY Times: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > < > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, but > there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking on: > 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of prime > minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the the > ?Asian holocaust?, and > 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among Japanese. > Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the rape > of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. > > This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our peril, > especially the history that puts us in a bad light. > > Henry > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo wrote: > > > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here is more > > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans to > > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know will > result > > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. The > > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing campaigns > > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both obscure in > > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical record (at > > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center one on > > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and > attendant > > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar qualities in > > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha > > wrote: > > > >> Please post this on XMCA: > >> > >> Message from Francine: > >> > >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary > >> bombing) could kill > >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six > weeks > >> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to kill > >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila and > >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of > >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is from 3 > >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). This > >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the > >> Japanese Army. > >> > >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in > Hiroshima, > >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > >> > >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day is the > >> suffering any less? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > >>> > >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after > >> about > >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just > >> before > >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > >>> > >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone > >> days > >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, > >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Rafi Santo > > Project Lead > > Hive Research Lab > > hiveresearchlab.org > > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:46:03 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 17:46:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help with Russian translation In-Reply-To: References: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> <29F5F39D-5277-45E8-9EB3-DB10B1CD8D5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CE8D739-7566-413A-87E9-F84EA9A5BA81@gmail.com> David, Would you agree that this ?subjective activeness? is likely to be connected to the network of enterprises and/or life projects that Vera and Andy, respectively, construe in documenting and reflecting on the work of highly creative people, especially in collaboration with others? Like this chat. Part of the network. Distributed cognition with active zones, attractors that play out on the stage. Forgive the blather. Henry > On Aug 6, 2015, at 5:04 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Andy: > > I think this somewhat over-literal translation might help: > > "The real (or the actual, factual--DK) basis of the human personality > consists of the totality of its social-in-nature relations to the world; > however, these are relations which are realized, and realized in their > activeness, or more precisely, in the totality of their multi-formed > activities. > > We have in view the subjective activeness which is the source of the > "units" for the psychological analysis of the personality: not actions, not > operations, and not psycho-physiological functions or building-blocks of > these functions; the latter characterize activity and not directly > personality." > > I'm cheating a little here, both by being over-literal and also by > distinguishing between subjective activeness and the activities which > realize it. But I think that is Vygotsky's intention. First of all, to > identify the basis of human personality in relations with the world taken > as a whole, and then to distinguish between the personality and the > specific actions that apparently make it up but which cannot exhaust its > potential. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Andy, >> Sorry, I am absolutely unqualified to translate this! But I am wondering >> if the ?life projects? Vygotsky had in mind were akin to what Vera >> John-Steiner has called in her book Creative Collaboration ?network of >> enterprises? and what you call ?life projects? in your intro the recent >> book on collaborative projects that you edited and to which Vera has >> contributed. I doubt this helps with the translation, but I am hoping that >> I am on the right path to understanding the passage. >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Could some of our wonderful Russophiles criticise my translation of the >> following excerpt: >>> >>> *?*??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? >>> ???????????? ??? ???????????? ?? ????? ??????? >>> ????????? ? ????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????????, >>> ? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????, >>> ????????????? ??? ????????????? ?????????????. >>> >>> ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ??????? >>> ? ???????? ????????? "?????????" ???????????????? >>> ??????? ????????, ? ?? ????????, ?? ????????, ?? >>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????; >>> ????????? ????????????? ????????????, ? ?? >>> ??????????????? ????????. >>> >>> which I have translated as: >>> >>> The real basis of a person?s personality is the >>> totality of their life-projects, which are social by >>> nature, but life-projects which are realised, and >>> they are realised by their activity, or more >>> precisely, by the totality of their various >>> activities.Here we have in mind in particular the >>> activities of the subject that are initial ?units? >>> of the psychological analysis of personality ? not >>> actions, not operations, not psychophysiological >>> functions or the blocks of these functions, which >>> characterise activity, but not directly personality. >>> >>> But there are parts of this which are really unclear to me, and perhaps >> a better translation would clear it up. The standard English translation >> does not help. >>> >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Aug 6 17:11:02 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 18:11:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55C33EB8-33E1-4AF1-8D50-31D80A34DB1B@gmail.com> David, So, what part do you think YOU play in helping Luc to reflect on Szilard and Oppenheimer? Do you take sides? And what orientation will he take from you regarding Enola Gay?s son? In the Navajo way, the uncle,, often the maternal uncle, is in some ways more father to the child than the father himself. I am thinking here about mentoring in the ZPD. Here's that balancing act you descibed in a passage from your article that I quoted from, a balancing act ideally suited for results that point to creativity, not compliance. Henry > On Aug 6, 2015, at 5:33 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. Unlike my > generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just beginning > to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also had > a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his > grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics undergraduate > inducted into the army. > > Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather > obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read John > Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the majority > of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb should > be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but that > somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert Oppenheimer. > But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of Japan, > and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it cost. > > When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by the > fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, > flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the > decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the > good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually > dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like Luc, > interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off from > school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo had > been. > > We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps some > day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for similar > horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's right: > comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder of > completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to > date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's > colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie president > and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole city > into six million degrees of heat. > > At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded the > bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. > supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. > > David Kellogg > > > > the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the museum > in the Peace Park, I learned that > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Mike, Rafi and Francine: >> >> Thank you. This from the NY Times: >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 >> < >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 >>> >> >> The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, but >> there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking on: >> 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of prime >> minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the the >> ?Asian holocaust?, and >> 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among Japanese. >> Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the rape >> of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. >> >> This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our peril, >> especially the history that puts us in a bad light. >> >> Henry >> >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo wrote: >>> >>> It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here is more >>> disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The >>> dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans to >>> engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know will >> result >>> in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. The >>> asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing campaigns >>> of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both obscure in >>> moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical record (at >>> least in case of the Asian Holocaust). >>> >>> While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center one on >>> hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and >> attendant >>> loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar qualities in >>> terms of the meanings that are linked to them. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Please post this on XMCA: >>>> >>>> Message from Francine: >>>> >>>> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary >>>> bombing) could kill >>>> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six >> weeks >>>> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to kill >>>> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila and >>>> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of >>>> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is from 3 >>>> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). This >>>> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the >>>> Japanese Army. >>>> >>>> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in >> Hiroshima, >>>> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. >>>> >>>> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day is the >>>> suffering any less? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 >>>>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us >>>>> >>>>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after >>>> about >>>>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just >>>> before >>>>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. >>>>> >>>>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone >>>> days >>>>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus >>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, >>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008) >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Rafi Santo >>> Project Lead >>> Hive Research Lab >>> hiveresearchlab.org >>> A project of Indiana University and New York University >>> >>> Indiana University - Learning Sciences >> >> From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 6 18:02:46 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2015 11:02:46 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help with Russian translation In-Reply-To: References: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> <29F5F39D-5277-45E8-9EB3-DB10B1CD8D5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55C403B6.4020708@mira.net> Your "over-literal" translation captures the grammatical structure of the excerpt in a way that makes a lot of sense, David. Thank you for that. I will definitely borrow from it. The word otnosheniyi, which I have translated as "life-projects" is usually translated as "relations" or "life-relationships" but as I understand it, it is the bolded word in statements like: "The Party's *orientation* to improvements in agriculture was affirmed." and "The Central Committee's *priorities* were outlined by the Secretary." I also have in mind that the otnosheniya are *realised as* activities, not even "realised by", so in a sense they are the inner form of activities. A "life-project" is both inner and outer really, but this seems appropriate to all the ways otnosheniyi is translated. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 7/08/2015 9:04 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Andy: > > I think this somewhat over-literal translation might help: > > "The real (or the actual, factual--DK) basis of the human personality > consists of the totality of its social-in-nature relations to the world; > however, these are relations which are realized, and realized in their > activeness, or more precisely, in the totality of their multi-formed > activities. > > We have in view the subjective activeness which is the source of the > "units" for the psychological analysis of the personality: not actions, not > operations, and not psycho-physiological functions or building-blocks of > these functions; the latter characterize activity and not directly > personality." > > I'm cheating a little here, both by being over-literal and also by > distinguishing between subjective activeness and the activities which > realize it. But I think that is Vygotsky's intention. First of all, to > identify the basis of human personality in relations with the world taken > as a whole, and then to distinguish between the personality and the > specific actions that apparently make it up but which cannot exhaust its > potential. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Andy, >> Sorry, I am absolutely unqualified to translate this! But I am wondering >> if the ?life projects? Vygotsky had in mind were akin to what Vera >> John-Steiner has called in her book Creative Collaboration ?network of >> enterprises? and what you call ?life projects? in your intro the recent >> book on collaborative projects that you edited and to which Vera has >> contributed. I doubt this helps with the translation, but I am hoping that >> I am on the right path to understanding the passage. >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Could some of our wonderful Russophiles criticise my translation of the >> following excerpt: >>> *?*??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? >>> ???????????? ??? ???????????? ?? ????? ??????? >>> ????????? ? ????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????????, >>> ? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????, >>> ????????????? ??? ????????????? ?????????????. >>> >>> ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ??????? >>> ? ???????? ????????? "?????????" ???????????????? >>> ??????? ????????, ? ?? ????????, ?? ????????, ?? >>> ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????; >>> ????????? ????????????? ????????????, ? ?? >>> ??????????????? ????????. >>> >>> which I have translated as: >>> >>> The real basis of a person?s personality is the >>> totality of their life-projects, which are social by >>> nature, but life-projects which are realised, and >>> they are realised by their activity, or more >>> precisely, by the totality of their various >>> activities.Here we have in mind in particular the >>> activities of the subject that are initial ?units? >>> of the psychological analysis of personality ? not >>> actions, not operations, not psychophysiological >>> functions or the blocks of these functions, which >>> characterise activity, but not directly personality. >>> >>> But there are parts of this which are really unclear to me, and perhaps >> a better translation would clear it up. The standard English translation >> does not help. >>> Andy >>> -- >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Thu Aug 6 22:43:06 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 00:43:06 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: In regard to David's remark regarding ". . . what American imperialism had done to Asia" I have to ask David, what are you referring to? Do you consider the American bombing of Japan as American Imperialism against the continent of Asia? The war in Vietnam did not affect the entire continent of Asia. Both the War in Vietnam and the Korean War were matters of Chinese and Russian Imperialism, as much as, American Imperialism. The Philippines were subjected to Spanish Imperialism, then American Imperialism (Philippine-American War of 1899-1902) and then Japanese Imperialism (1941-1945). There is the era of European colonial imperialism that subjugated India, Indochina, and the "Spice Islands." Albeit the memorable role of Charlton Heston in 55 Days in Peking, the USA was not a major world power at the time of the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901). And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Muslim Imperialism into India, and inter-Asian Imperialism (Mongols invading China, etc.); oh yes and there was that nasty business of Genghis Khan invading Europe. The real issue is how to prevent (as well as stop) the cycles of violence and the subjugation of 'other' people. Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to stop violence and subjugation, has been with a horrendous act (that breaks the will to continue fighting). There has to be a better way. But what is it? Should the Allies have negotiated a treaty with Japan after the Battle of Okinawa? - that would surely have left large areas of Asia under Japanese control (certainly Korea). Where did the brutality of Japanese Imperialism spring from? There are blood feuds that did not begin because of Western (whether American or European) actions - the enmity between different sects of Islam is the catalyst behind ISIL. The slaughter of infidels and apostates is not a response to any aggression on their part, it is because they exist. > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. Unlike my > generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just beginning > to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also had > a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his > grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics undergraduate > inducted into the army. > > Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather > obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read John > Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the majority > of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb should > be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but that > somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert Oppenheimer. > But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of Japan, > and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it cost. > > When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by the > fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, > flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the > decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the > good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually > dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like Luc, > interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off from > school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo had > been. > > We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps some > day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for similar > horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's right: > comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder of > completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to > date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's > colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie president > and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole city > into six million degrees of heat. > > At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded the > bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. > supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. > > David Kellogg > > > > the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the museum > in the Peace Park, I learned that > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > Mike, Rafi and Francine: > > > > Thank you. This from the NY Times: > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > < > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > > > The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, but > > there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking on: > > 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of prime > > minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the the > > ?Asian holocaust?, and > > 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among Japanese. > > Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the rape > > of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. > > > > This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our peril, > > especially the history that puts us in a bad light. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo wrote: > > > > > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here is more > > > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > > > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans to > > > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know will > > result > > > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. The > > > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing campaigns > > > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both obscure in > > > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical record (at > > > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > > > > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center one on > > > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and > > attendant > > > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar qualities in > > > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Please post this on XMCA: > > >> > > >> Message from Francine: > > >> > > >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary > > >> bombing) could kill > > >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six > > weeks > > >> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to kill > > >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila and > > >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of > > >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is from 3 > > >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). This > > >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the > > >> Japanese Army. > > >> > > >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in > > Hiroshima, > > >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > > >> > > >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day is the > > >> suffering any less? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > > >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > > >>> > > >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after > > >> about > > >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just > > >> before > > >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > >>> > > >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone > > >> days > > >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. > > >>> Mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > > >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, > > >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Rafi Santo > > > Project Lead > > > Hive Research Lab > > > hiveresearchlab.org > > > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > > > > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences > > > > From bella.kotik@gmail.com Fri Aug 7 07:51:25 2015 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 17:51:25 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help with Russian translation In-Reply-To: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> References: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy I feel that "totality" sounds somewhat different from ???????????? may be complex is closer and I agree with David about "relations" instead of "life-projects"; Is this from Leontjev's texts? Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut 2015-08-06 15:28 GMT+03:00 Andy Blunden : > Could some of our wonderful Russophiles criticise my translation of the > following excerpt: > > *?*??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? > ???????????? ??? ???????????? ?? ????? ??????? > ????????? ? ????, ?? ?????????, ??????? ???????????, > ? ??? ??????????? ??? ?????????????, ??????, > ????????????? ??? ????????????? ?????????????. > > ??????? ? ???? ?????? ???????????? ????????, ??????? > ? ???????? ????????? "?????????" ???????????????? > ??????? ????????, ? ?? ????????, ?? ????????, ?? > ???????????????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????; > ????????? ????????????? ????????????, ? ?? > ??????????????? ????????. > > which I have translated as: > > The real basis of a person?s personality is the > totality of their life-projects, which are social by > nature, but life-projects which are realised, and > they are realised by their activity, or more > precisely, by the totality of their various > activities.Here we have in mind in particular the > activities of the subject that are initial ?units? > of the psychological analysis of personality ? not > actions, not operations, not psychophysiological > functions or the blocks of these functions, which > characterise activity, but not directly personality. > > But there are parts of this which are really unclear to me, and perhaps a > better translation would clear it up. The standard English translation does > not help. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Aug 7 08:26:17 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 01:26:17 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Help with Russian translation In-Reply-To: References: <55C352EC.5070708@mira.net> <55C4C8F0.1040403@mira.net> Message-ID: <55C4CE19.1090807@mira.net> Motives - leading, typical or dominant - priorities, things you want to achieve in the world? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 8/08/2015 1:16 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > I think that > "personality is also a kind of structure of activities > like the objective world," > is not exactly what ANL meant because he always stressed > that motives, (leading or typical or dominant) > characterize personality > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Aug 7 12:56:50 2015 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 22:56:50 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my opinion (as an adhered atheist), the main catalyst behind ISIL is not the presence of historically formed sects of Islam prior to imperialism, but rather this main catalyst was imperialism, because imperialism recreates, manipulates these for its own interests, for its dominance. Another social order could and would provide another social, economic, political context for these historically formed enmities so that these would lose their hostilities and start to live as different religious sects, cultures, with complete respect to each other, in peace, just as different religious beliefs. Another social order could and would cease these enmities, hostilities, religious,racial and nationalistic, formed during the historical development of human society. The main problem is that humanity could seize this opportunity in the 20th century, but used this perhaps unique and final historical chance very badly; could not manage it properly to endure, Soviet Union and China used this opportunity for humanity very badly. Now it is obvious that this will have a very, very big cost for humanity and we are just at the beginning of this evil for humanity. But the unique truth is still there. There is still a unique exit from this evil: A society based on social justice and equality. Otherwise, we are already on the edge of the extinction of humanity. In Syria, in Ukraine, in Greece, in Europe... Ulvi On 7 August 2015 at 08:43, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine: > > In regard to David's remark regarding ". . . what American imperialism had > done to Asia" > > I have to ask David, what are you referring to? Do you consider the > American bombing of Japan > as American Imperialism against the continent of Asia? The war in Vietnam > did not affect the entire continent of Asia. Both the War in Vietnam and > the Korean War were matters of Chinese > and Russian Imperialism, as much as, American Imperialism. The Philippines > were subjected to Spanish Imperialism, then American Imperialism > (Philippine-American War of 1899-1902) and then Japanese Imperialism > (1941-1945). > > There is the era of European colonial imperialism that subjugated India, > Indochina, and the "Spice Islands." Albeit the memorable role of Charlton > Heston in 55 Days in Peking, > the USA was not a major world power at the time of the Boxer Rebellion > (1899-1901). > > And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Muslim Imperialism into India, > and inter-Asian > Imperialism (Mongols invading China, etc.); oh yes and there was that > nasty business of Genghis Khan invading Europe. > > The real issue is how to prevent (as well as stop) the cycles of violence > and the subjugation of 'other' people. Unfortunately, it seems that the > only way to stop violence and subjugation, has been with a horrendous act > (that breaks the will to continue fighting). > > There has to be a better way. But what is it? Should the Allies have > negotiated a treaty with Japan after the Battle of Okinawa? - that would > surely have left large areas of Asia under Japanese control (certainly > Korea). Where did the brutality of Japanese Imperialism spring from? > > There are blood feuds that did not begin because of Western (whether > American or European) > actions - the enmity between different sects of Islam is the catalyst > behind ISIL. The slaughter of infidels and apostates is not a response to > any aggression on their part, it is because they exist. > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 > > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > > > A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. Unlike > my > > generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just > beginning > > to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also > had > > a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his > > grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics > undergraduate > > inducted into the army. > > > > Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather > > obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read John > > Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the majority > > of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb > should > > be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but that > > somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert Oppenheimer. > > But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of > Japan, > > and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it > cost. > > > > When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by the > > fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, > > flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the > > decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the > > good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually > > dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like > Luc, > > interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off from > > school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo had > > been. > > > > We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps > some > > day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for similar > > horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's right: > > comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder of > > completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to > > date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's > > colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie president > > and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole city > > into six million degrees of heat. > > > > At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded the > > bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. > > supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the > museum > > in the Peace Park, I learned that > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > wrote: > > > > > Mike, Rafi and Francine: > > > > > > Thank you. This from the NY Times: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > < > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > > > > > > The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, but > > > there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking on: > > > 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of > prime > > > minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the the > > > ?Asian holocaust?, and > > > 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among Japanese. > > > Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the > rape > > > of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. > > > > > > This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our > peril, > > > especially the history that puts us in a bad light. > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo wrote: > > > > > > > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here is > more > > > > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > > > > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans > to > > > > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know will > > > result > > > > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. > The > > > > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing > campaigns > > > > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both > obscure in > > > > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical record > (at > > > > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > > > > > > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center > one on > > > > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and > > > attendant > > > > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar qualities > in > > > > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha < > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Please post this on XMCA: > > > >> > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > >> > > > >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or incendiary > > > >> bombing) could kill > > > >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII six > > > weeks > > > >> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to > kill > > > >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of Manila > and > > > >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate of > > > >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is > from 3 > > > >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). > This > > > >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting the > > > >> Japanese Army. > > > >> > > > >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in > > > Hiroshima, > > > >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > > > >> > > > >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day > is the > > > >> suffering any less? > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > > > >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > > > >>> > > > >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days > after > > > >> about > > > >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just > > > >> before > > > >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > > >>> > > > >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye > gone > > > >> days > > > >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are > now. > > > >>> Mike > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> > > > >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > > > >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & > Storch, > > > >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Rafi Santo > > > > Project Lead > > > > Hive Research Lab > > > > hiveresearchlab.org > > > > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > > > > > > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Aug 7 14:35:22 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 06:35:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ulvi: I agree with everything you say about imperialism and I think it's a very important corrective to a thread which risks going very severely off topic in a way that doesn't reflect much credit on our list (I think it's really not very creditable to take the seventieth anniversary of an unprecedented and unparalleled war crime for which the USA was uniquely responsible to "reflect" on the violence of one's present enemies instead). Imperialism should not be a word we just throw around to describe any form of international bullying except our own. It should be a very precise and well historicized description of how advanced capitalist countries export their capital in order to try, temporarily, to overcome the great contradiction under which capitalism has operated since its inception and under which it still must operate. If capitalism was going to expropriate the surplus labor of workers without compensation, the workers would, by definition, not be able to purchase the products of their own labor: a national market could not suffice. This meant that European capitalism, in order to expand, had to find markets abroad: where the Dutch had established a trade in silver and spices, the Americans established trade in slaves and sugar, the British had to market textiles to India to sell opium to China to pay for cups of tea back home. But of course imperialism only exported the contradiction, it didn't solve it. Faced with the choice of buying Manchester textiles or starving, the rajas and zamindars could opt for the former, but the Bengali opium growers were soon reduced to the latter. Even in England, workers began to consume opium because it was actually cheaper than food. The Second World War was fought by different countries for different reasons: in China and the USSR it was a war of national defense, but for the USA it was essentially an imperialist war fought for the world we enjoy today, a world where (with the exception of my former profession of English teaching) the movement of labor is severely restricted but the movement of American capital knows no bounds at all. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, they were not attacking an integral part of the USA but rather a territory which had been violently expropriated by American sugar and pineapple planters. The Americans did not bomb Hiroshima in order to liberate China; they committed this completely unique wartime atrocity in order to make sure that the Pacific Ocean would be an American lake today, and to enforce the dominance of American companies guarded and guaranteed by the military bases which remain even today in Korea and in Japan itself. When I read Shakespeare, I am always surprised at the emphasis he places on kings doing their own fighting (rather than getting their unwilling vassals, still less the common people). That is, after all, how Hamlet begins; with two kings fighting it out man to man for the lands they covet. I think what would have surprised and sickened Shakespeare is our own acceptance of the idea that in any military conflict it is overwhelmingly ordinary civilians who must die (modern technology ensured that for most of the men who "fought and died" in Iraq and Afrghanistan fought a kind of war game in which others had to die, and the "drone war" is only the most extreme development of this kind of "asymmetrical warfare"). Hiroshima was a milestone in the construction of that hideous and inhuman idea, and it is that idea, and not the careless use of "imperialism" as an empty epithet, which links us to Tamerlane and Genghis Khan. When Hirohito broadcast a statement accepting unconditional surrender almost exactly seventy years ago, what he stressed was the cruelty and barbarism of the enemy, which according to him was bent on the unchivalrous and random destruction of ordinary Japanese people. Hirohito said that surrender was the only way to continue to exist. For most of his people, it was the very first time they had ever heard his voice. It was also one of the first times their government had told them anything like the truth. David Kellogg On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:56 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > In my opinion (as an adhered atheist), the main catalyst behind ISIL is not > the presence of historically formed sects of Islam prior to imperialism, > but rather this main catalyst was imperialism, because imperialism > recreates, manipulates these for its own interests, for its dominance. > > Another social order could and would provide another social, economic, > political context for these historically formed enmities so that these > would lose their hostilities and start to live as different religious > sects, cultures, with complete respect to each other, in peace, just as > different religious beliefs. > > Another social order could and would cease these enmities, hostilities, > religious,racial and nationalistic, formed during the historical > development of human society. > > The main problem is that humanity could seize this opportunity in the 20th > century, but used this perhaps unique and final historical chance very > badly; could not manage it properly to endure, Soviet Union and China used > this opportunity for humanity very badly. > > Now it is obvious that this will have a very, very big cost for humanity > and we are just at the beginning of this evil for humanity. > > But the unique truth is still there. There is still a unique exit from this > evil: A society based on social justice and equality. > > Otherwise, we are already on the edge of the extinction of humanity. In > Syria, in Ukraine, in Greece, in Europe... > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > > > > On 7 August 2015 at 08:43, larry smolucha wrote: > > > Message from Francine: > > > > In regard to David's remark regarding ". . . what American imperialism > had > > done to Asia" > > > > I have to ask David, what are you referring to? Do you consider the > > American bombing of Japan > > as American Imperialism against the continent of Asia? The war in Vietnam > > did not affect the entire continent of Asia. Both the War in Vietnam and > > the Korean War were matters of Chinese > > and Russian Imperialism, as much as, American Imperialism. The > Philippines > > were subjected to Spanish Imperialism, then American Imperialism > > (Philippine-American War of 1899-1902) and then Japanese Imperialism > > (1941-1945). > > > > There is the era of European colonial imperialism that subjugated India, > > Indochina, and the "Spice Islands." Albeit the memorable role of Charlton > > Heston in 55 Days in Peking, > > the USA was not a major world power at the time of the Boxer Rebellion > > (1899-1901). > > > > And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Muslim Imperialism into India, > > and inter-Asian > > Imperialism (Mongols invading China, etc.); oh yes and there was that > > nasty business of Genghis Khan invading Europe. > > > > The real issue is how to prevent (as well as stop) the cycles of violence > > and the subjugation of 'other' people. Unfortunately, it seems that the > > only way to stop violence and subjugation, has been with a horrendous act > > (that breaks the will to continue fighting). > > > > There has to be a better way. But what is it? Should the Allies have > > negotiated a treaty with Japan after the Battle of Okinawa? - that would > > surely have left large areas of Asia under Japanese control (certainly > > Korea). Where did the brutality of Japanese Imperialism spring from? > > > > There are blood feuds that did not begin because of Western (whether > > American or European) > > actions - the enmity between different sects of Islam is the catalyst > > behind ISIL. The slaughter of infidels and apostates is not a response to > > any aggression on their part, it is because they exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 > > > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > > > > > A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. > Unlike > > my > > > generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just > > beginning > > > to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also > > had > > > a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his > > > grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics > > undergraduate > > > inducted into the army. > > > > > > Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather > > > obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read > John > > > Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the > majority > > > of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb > > should > > > be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but > that > > > somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert > Oppenheimer. > > > But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of > > Japan, > > > and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it > > cost. > > > > > > When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by > the > > > fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, > > > flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the > > > decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the > > > good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually > > > dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like > > Luc, > > > interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off > from > > > school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo > had > > > been. > > > > > > We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps > > some > > > day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for > similar > > > horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's > right: > > > comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder > of > > > completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to > > > date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's > > > colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie > president > > > and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole > city > > > into six million degrees of heat. > > > > > > At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded > the > > > bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. > > > supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the > > museum > > > in the Peace Park, I learned that > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, Rafi and Francine: > > > > > > > > Thank you. This from the NY Times: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > < > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, > but > > > > there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking > on: > > > > 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of > > prime > > > > minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the > the > > > > ?Asian holocaust?, and > > > > 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among > Japanese. > > > > Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the > > rape > > > > of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. > > > > > > > > This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our > > peril, > > > > especially the history that puts us in a bad light. > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here > is > > more > > > > > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > > > > > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans > > to > > > > > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know > will > > > > result > > > > > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. > > The > > > > > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing > > campaigns > > > > > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both > > obscure in > > > > > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical > record > > (at > > > > > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > > > > > > > > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center > > one on > > > > > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and > > > > attendant > > > > > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar > qualities > > in > > > > > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha < > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Please post this on XMCA: > > > > >> > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > > >> > > > > >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or > incendiary > > > > >> bombing) could kill > > > > >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII > six > > > > weeks > > > > >> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to > > kill > > > > >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of > Manila > > and > > > > >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate > of > > > > >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is > > from 3 > > > > >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). > > This > > > > >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting > the > > > > >> Japanese Army. > > > > >> > > > > >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in > > > > Hiroshima, > > > > >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > > > > >> > > > > >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day > > is the > > > > >> suffering any less? > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > > > > >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > > >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > > > > >>> > > > > >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days > > after > > > > >> about > > > > >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and > just > > > > >> before > > > > >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye > > gone > > > > >> days > > > > >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are > > now. > > > > >>> Mike > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -- > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and > thus > > > > >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & > > Storch, > > > > >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Rafi Santo > > > > > Project Lead > > > > > Hive Research Lab > > > > > hiveresearchlab.org > > > > > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > > > > > > > > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences > > > > > > > > > > > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:34:39 2015 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 18:34:39 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: This thread began with Michael's suggestion that we "reflect on the bye gone days when humans were not as skilled in mass destruction as we are now" - my comments are not off topic. XMCA discussions of political topics would benefit from an understanding that we 'agree to disagree' at times. Or is there only one party line for XMCA? And are XMCA discussions about atrocities to ignore the most glaring atrocities of the day (which just happen to be the activities of ISIL which have not involved nuclear weapons so far i.e., the methods of the "bye gone days")? David wants to restrict the definition of imperialism to only include the militaristic and economic expansionism of capitalist countries. That is David's personal definition not one that is found in any dictionary. The Japanese certainly had (have) the ability to level war crimes charges against the USA especially when the Japanese economy had begun to rival and even dominate that of the USA (1970's-1980's). The German economy has been thriving for fifty years, they could (have) filed war crime charges for the inhumane fire bombing of Dresden. And, au contriere, it is credible on the 70th Anniversary of Hiroshima to reflect on the very real possibility of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East (should Iran develop a nuclear weapon and other Arab nations, and perhaps Turkey, feel the need for nuclear deterrents). Some of us on XMCA grew up during the Cold War between the USA and the USSR, but other younger members of XMCA grew up after the Cold War. That we are on the eve of another nuclear arms race (this time in the Middle East) might seem only a vague and distant possibility. In regard to Ulvi's comments about the main catalyst behind ISIL being Western Imperialism, I disagree and reiterate my opinion that the animosity between different Islamic sects is not a response to Western Imperialism. In a power vacuum, as in post-war Iraq after the American troops left, there would be power plays by rival factions. The Ottoman Turks ruled the Middle East for 1,000 years suppressing any factional uprisings. The national boundary lines for countries in the Middle East were artificially drawn up by the British after WWI, and it is not surprising that factions would want to create new nation states (ISIL's caliphate) or extend the reach of established entities (like Iran formerly Persia). Ulvi remarks that in a different social order, the hostilities between different Islamic sects could be resolved peacefully. They never have been - but it is a good conceptual exercise to try to imagine what type of social order would bring about that 'utopian' situation. Theodul Ribot (1900) would refer to this as an activity involving a very specific type of creativity that he called the "Utopian Creative Imagination." I mention this for those XMCA members who have an interest in Vygotsky's theory of creativity (Vygotsky based his theory on Ribot's). Creativity is not just for artists and scientists. > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 06:35:22 +0900 > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > Ulvi: > > I agree with everything you say about imperialism and I think it's a very > important corrective to a thread which risks going very severely off topic > in a way that doesn't reflect much credit on our list (I think it's really > not very creditable to take the seventieth anniversary of an unprecedented > and unparalleled war crime for which the USA was uniquely responsible to > "reflect" on the violence of one's present enemies instead). > Imperialism should not be a word we just throw around to describe any form > of international bullying except our own. It should be a very precise and > well historicized description of how advanced capitalist countries export > their capital in order to try, temporarily, to overcome the great > contradiction under which capitalism has operated since its inception and > under which it still must operate. > > If capitalism was going to expropriate the surplus labor of workers without > compensation, the workers would, by definition, not be able to purchase the > products of their own labor: a national market could not suffice. > This meant that European capitalism, in order to expand, had to find > markets abroad: where the Dutch had established a trade in silver and > spices, the Americans established trade in slaves and sugar, the British > had to market textiles to India to sell opium to China to pay for cups of > tea back home. But of course imperialism only exported the contradiction, > it didn't solve it. Faced with the choice of buying Manchester textiles or > starving, the rajas and zamindars could opt for the former, but the > Bengali opium growers were soon reduced to the latter. Even in England, > workers began to consume opium because it was actually cheaper than food. > > The Second World War was fought by different countries for different > reasons: in China and the USSR it was a war of national defense, but for > the USA it was essentially an imperialist war fought for the world we enjoy > today, a world where (with the exception of my former profession of English > teaching) the movement of labor is severely restricted but the movement of > American capital knows no bounds at all. When the Japanese attacked Pearl > Harbor, they were not attacking an integral part of the USA but rather a > territory which had been violently expropriated by American sugar and > pineapple planters. The Americans did not bomb Hiroshima in order to > liberate China; they committed this completely unique wartime atrocity in > order to make sure that the Pacific Ocean would be an American lake today, > and to enforce the dominance of American companies guarded and guaranteed > by the military bases which remain even today in Korea and in Japan itself. > > When I read Shakespeare, I am always surprised at the emphasis he places on > kings doing their own fighting (rather than getting their unwilling > vassals, still less the common people). That is, after all, how Hamlet > begins; with two kings fighting it out man to man for the lands they covet. > I think what would have surprised and sickened Shakespeare is our own > acceptance of the idea that in any military conflict it is overwhelmingly > ordinary civilians who must die (modern technology ensured that for most of > the men who "fought and died" in Iraq and Afrghanistan fought a kind of war > game in which others had to die, and the "drone war" is only the most > extreme development of this kind of "asymmetrical warfare"). Hiroshima was > a milestone in the construction of that hideous and inhuman idea, and it > is that idea, and not the careless use of "imperialism" as an empty > epithet, which links us to Tamerlane and Genghis Khan. > > When Hirohito broadcast a statement accepting unconditional surrender > almost exactly seventy years ago, what he stressed was the cruelty and > barbarism of the enemy, which according to him was bent on the unchivalrous > and random destruction of ordinary Japanese people. Hirohito said that > surrender was the only way to continue to exist. For most of his people, it > was the very first time they had ever heard his voice. It was also one of > the first times their government had told them anything like the truth. > > David Kellogg > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:56 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > In my opinion (as an adhered atheist), the main catalyst behind ISIL is not > > the presence of historically formed sects of Islam prior to imperialism, > > but rather this main catalyst was imperialism, because imperialism > > recreates, manipulates these for its own interests, for its dominance. > > > > Another social order could and would provide another social, economic, > > political context for these historically formed enmities so that these > > would lose their hostilities and start to live as different religious > > sects, cultures, with complete respect to each other, in peace, just as > > different religious beliefs. > > > > Another social order could and would cease these enmities, hostilities, > > religious,racial and nationalistic, formed during the historical > > development of human society. > > > > The main problem is that humanity could seize this opportunity in the 20th > > century, but used this perhaps unique and final historical chance very > > badly; could not manage it properly to endure, Soviet Union and China used > > this opportunity for humanity very badly. > > > > Now it is obvious that this will have a very, very big cost for humanity > > and we are just at the beginning of this evil for humanity. > > > > But the unique truth is still there. There is still a unique exit from this > > evil: A society based on social justice and equality. > > > > Otherwise, we are already on the edge of the extinction of humanity. In > > Syria, in Ukraine, in Greece, in Europe... > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7 August 2015 at 08:43, larry smolucha wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine: > > > > > > In regard to David's remark regarding ". . . what American imperialism > > had > > > done to Asia" > > > > > > I have to ask David, what are you referring to? Do you consider the > > > American bombing of Japan > > > as American Imperialism against the continent of Asia? The war in Vietnam > > > did not affect the entire continent of Asia. Both the War in Vietnam and > > > the Korean War were matters of Chinese > > > and Russian Imperialism, as much as, American Imperialism. The > > Philippines > > > were subjected to Spanish Imperialism, then American Imperialism > > > (Philippine-American War of 1899-1902) and then Japanese Imperialism > > > (1941-1945). > > > > > > There is the era of European colonial imperialism that subjugated India, > > > Indochina, and the "Spice Islands." Albeit the memorable role of Charlton > > > Heston in 55 Days in Peking, > > > the USA was not a major world power at the time of the Boxer Rebellion > > > (1899-1901). > > > > > > And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Muslim Imperialism into India, > > > and inter-Asian > > > Imperialism (Mongols invading China, etc.); oh yes and there was that > > > nasty business of Genghis Khan invading Europe. > > > > > > The real issue is how to prevent (as well as stop) the cycles of violence > > > and the subjugation of 'other' people. Unfortunately, it seems that the > > > only way to stop violence and subjugation, has been with a horrendous act > > > (that breaks the will to continue fighting). > > > > > > There has to be a better way. But what is it? Should the Allies have > > > negotiated a treaty with Japan after the Battle of Okinawa? - that would > > > surely have left large areas of Asia under Japanese control (certainly > > > Korea). Where did the brutality of Japanese Imperialism spring from? > > > > > > There are blood feuds that did not begin because of Western (whether > > > American or European) > > > actions - the enmity between different sects of Islam is the catalyst > > > behind ISIL. The slaughter of infidels and apostates is not a response to > > > any aggression on their part, it is because they exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 > > > > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > > > > > > > A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. > > Unlike > > > my > > > > generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just > > > beginning > > > > to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also > > > had > > > > a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his > > > > grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics > > > undergraduate > > > > inducted into the army. > > > > > > > > Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather > > > > obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read > > John > > > > Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the > > majority > > > > of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb > > > should > > > > be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but > > that > > > > somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert > > Oppenheimer. > > > > But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of > > > Japan, > > > > and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it > > > cost. > > > > > > > > When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by > > the > > > > fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, > > > > flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the > > > > decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the > > > > good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually > > > > dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like > > > Luc, > > > > interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off > > from > > > > school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo > > had > > > > been. > > > > > > > > We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps > > > some > > > > day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for > > similar > > > > horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's > > right: > > > > comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder > > of > > > > completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to > > > > date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's > > > > colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie > > president > > > > and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole > > city > > > > into six million degrees of heat. > > > > > > > > At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded > > the > > > > bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. > > > > supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the > > > museum > > > > in the Peace Park, I learned that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, Rafi and Francine: > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. This from the NY Times: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, > > but > > > > > there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking > > on: > > > > > 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of > > > prime > > > > > minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the > > the > > > > > ?Asian holocaust?, and > > > > > 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among > > Japanese. > > > > > Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the > > > rape > > > > > of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. > > > > > > > > > > This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our > > > peril, > > > > > especially the history that puts us in a bad light. > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here > > is > > > more > > > > > > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > > > > > > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans > > > to > > > > > > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know > > will > > > > > result > > > > > > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. > > > The > > > > > > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing > > > campaigns > > > > > > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both > > > obscure in > > > > > > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical > > record > > > (at > > > > > > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > > > > > > > > > > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center > > > one on > > > > > > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and > > > > > attendant > > > > > > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar > > qualities > > > in > > > > > > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha < > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Please post this on XMCA: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or > > incendiary > > > > > >> bombing) could kill > > > > > >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII > > six > > > > > weeks > > > > > >> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to > > > kill > > > > > >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of > > Manila > > > and > > > > > >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate > > of > > > > > >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is > > > from 3 > > > > > >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). > > > This > > > > > >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting > > the > > > > > >> Japanese Army. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in > > > > > Hiroshima, > > > > > >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day > > > is the > > > > > >> suffering any less? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > > > > > >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > > > >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days > > > after > > > > > >> about > > > > > >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and > > just > > > > > >> before > > > > > >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye > > > gone > > > > > >> days > > > > > >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are > > > now. > > > > > >>> Mike > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> -- > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and > > thus > > > > > >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & > > > Storch, > > > > > >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Rafi Santo > > > > > > Project Lead > > > > > > Hive Research Lab > > > > > > hiveresearchlab.org > > > > > > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > > > > > > > > > > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Aug 7 18:02:59 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 01:02:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , Message-ID: The kind of discourse we are allowed to have, even if we disagree, is its own social gift and liberty. Hiroshima is without doubt a regrettable historical happening, commenced with bloodshot eyes after years and years of war ringing so powerfully about the world it still rings in our ears uninterpreted. Regret for misdeeds are found everywhere in every period and we can write many sentences, too, about them because we can. What I hope to do, as doing can be done by me, is to contemplate upon acts of love or truth or beauty, not because I want to deny the horror or the suffering or even the indignations so stated, but because I want to look to blue sky, where there is space and air to breathe and then to consider how to keep caring despite the horrors committed from a wrong belief in scarcity and too much otherness. We are not so different, really. Where is my sphere of influence? Wherever it is, I must act there where I can try to coax into bloom the flowers of love and friendship, and fraternity and sorority for humanity over tea, without ceremony. I could do that I'm sure, with my small hands digitally. And you? What can you do? Kind regards while considering the shards of Hiroshima? Annalisa From ablunden@mira.net Fri Aug 7 18:16:23 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 11:16:23 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , Message-ID: <55C55867.6060306@mira.net> I have been a participant on the volunteers' listserv of marxists.org for about 16 years. I don't know if people who are not Marxists realise this, but us Marxists disagree amongst ourselves with every bit as much passion, antipathy and cognitive dissonance as anyone else. We manage this discussion and our *joint work* by simply restricting discussion to "business," so to speak. Reflecting on the past 10 years of collaborative discussion it is unmistakeable that there not been a "battle" over anything during this time and at the same time political differences have also virtually disappeared, provided we don't talk about the past! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 8/08/2015 9:34 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > > > Message from Francine: > > This thread began with Michael's suggestion that we "reflect on the bye gone days when > humans were not as skilled in mass destruction as we are now" - my comments are not > off topic. > > XMCA discussions of political topics would benefit from an understanding that we 'agree to disagree' at times. Or is there only one party line for XMCA? And are XMCA discussions > about atrocities to ignore the most glaring atrocities of the day (which just happen to be the > activities of ISIL which have not involved nuclear weapons so far i.e., the methods of the "bye gone days")? > > David wants to restrict the definition of imperialism to only include the militaristic and > economic expansionism of capitalist countries. That is David's personal definition not one that is found in any dictionary. The Japanese certainly had (have) the ability to level war crimes charges against the USA especially when the Japanese economy had begun to rival and even dominate that of the USA (1970's-1980's). The German economy has been thriving for fifty years, they could (have) filed war crime charges for the inhumane fire bombing of Dresden. > > And, au contriere, it is credible on the 70th Anniversary of Hiroshima to reflect on the > very real possibility of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East (should Iran develop a nuclear > weapon and other Arab nations, and perhaps Turkey, feel the need for nuclear deterrents). > > Some of us on XMCA grew up during the Cold War between the USA and the USSR, but other > younger members of XMCA grew up after the Cold War. That we are on the eve of another > nuclear arms race (this time in the Middle East) might seem only a vague and distant possibility. > > > In regard to Ulvi's comments about the main catalyst behind ISIL being Western Imperialism, > I disagree and reiterate my opinion that the animosity between different Islamic sects > is not a response to Western Imperialism. In a power vacuum, as in post-war Iraq after the > American troops left, there would be power plays by rival factions. The Ottoman Turks ruled > the Middle East for 1,000 years suppressing any factional uprisings. The national boundary lines > for countries in the Middle East were artificially drawn up by the British after WWI, and it is not > surprising that factions would want to create new nation states (ISIL's caliphate) or extend the reach of established entities (like Iran formerly Persia). > > Ulvi remarks that in a different social order, the hostilities between different Islamic sects > could be resolved peacefully. They never have been - but it is a good conceptual exercise > to try to imagine what type of social order would bring about that 'utopian' situation. > > Theodul Ribot (1900) would refer to this as an activity involving a very specific type of creativity that he called the "Utopian Creative Imagination." I mention this for those XMCA members > who have an interest in Vygotsky's theory of creativity (Vygotsky based his theory on Ribot's). > Creativity is not just for artists and scientists. > > > > >> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 06:35:22 +0900 >> From: dkellogg60@gmail.com >> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us >> >> Ulvi: >> >> I agree with everything you say about imperialism and I think it's a very >> important corrective to a thread which risks going very severely off topic >> in a way that doesn't reflect much credit on our list (I think it's really >> not very creditable to take the seventieth anniversary of an unprecedented >> and unparalleled war crime for which the USA was uniquely responsible to >> "reflect" on the violence of one's present enemies instead). >> Imperialism should not be a word we just throw around to describe any form >> of international bullying except our own. It should be a very precise and >> well historicized description of how advanced capitalist countries export >> their capital in order to try, temporarily, to overcome the great >> contradiction under which capitalism has operated since its inception and >> under which it still must operate. >> >> If capitalism was going to expropriate the surplus labor of workers without >> compensation, the workers would, by definition, not be able to purchase the >> products of their own labor: a national market could not suffice. >> This meant that European capitalism, in order to expand, had to find >> markets abroad: where the Dutch had established a trade in silver and >> spices, the Americans established trade in slaves and sugar, the British >> had to market textiles to India to sell opium to China to pay for cups of >> tea back home. But of course imperialism only exported the contradiction, >> it didn't solve it. Faced with the choice of buying Manchester textiles or >> starving, the rajas and zamindars could opt for the former, but the >> Bengali opium growers were soon reduced to the latter. Even in England, >> workers began to consume opium because it was actually cheaper than food. >> >> The Second World War was fought by different countries for different >> reasons: in China and the USSR it was a war of national defense, but for >> the USA it was essentially an imperialist war fought for the world we enjoy >> today, a world where (with the exception of my former profession of English >> teaching) the movement of labor is severely restricted but the movement of >> American capital knows no bounds at all. When the Japanese attacked Pearl >> Harbor, they were not attacking an integral part of the USA but rather a >> territory which had been violently expropriated by American sugar and >> pineapple planters. The Americans did not bomb Hiroshima in order to >> liberate China; they committed this completely unique wartime atrocity in >> order to make sure that the Pacific Ocean would be an American lake today, >> and to enforce the dominance of American companies guarded and guaranteed >> by the military bases which remain even today in Korea and in Japan itself. >> >> When I read Shakespeare, I am always surprised at the emphasis he places on >> kings doing their own fighting (rather than getting their unwilling >> vassals, still less the common people). That is, after all, how Hamlet >> begins; with two kings fighting it out man to man for the lands they covet. >> I think what would have surprised and sickened Shakespeare is our own >> acceptance of the idea that in any military conflict it is overwhelmingly >> ordinary civilians who must die (modern technology ensured that for most of >> the men who "fought and died" in Iraq and Afrghanistan fought a kind of war >> game in which others had to die, and the "drone war" is only the most >> extreme development of this kind of "asymmetrical warfare"). Hiroshima was >> a milestone in the construction of that hideous and inhuman idea, and it >> is that idea, and not the careless use of "imperialism" as an empty >> epithet, which links us to Tamerlane and Genghis Khan. >> >> When Hirohito broadcast a statement accepting unconditional surrender >> almost exactly seventy years ago, what he stressed was the cruelty and >> barbarism of the enemy, which according to him was bent on the unchivalrous >> and random destruction of ordinary Japanese people. Hirohito said that >> surrender was the only way to continue to exist. For most of his people, it >> was the very first time they had ever heard his voice. It was also one of >> the first times their government had told them anything like the truth. >> >> David Kellogg >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:56 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: >> >>> In my opinion (as an adhered atheist), the main catalyst behind ISIL is not >>> the presence of historically formed sects of Islam prior to imperialism, >>> but rather this main catalyst was imperialism, because imperialism >>> recreates, manipulates these for its own interests, for its dominance. >>> >>> Another social order could and would provide another social, economic, >>> political context for these historically formed enmities so that these >>> would lose their hostilities and start to live as different religious >>> sects, cultures, with complete respect to each other, in peace, just as >>> different religious beliefs. >>> >>> Another social order could and would cease these enmities, hostilities, >>> religious,racial and nationalistic, formed during the historical >>> development of human society. >>> >>> The main problem is that humanity could seize this opportunity in the 20th >>> century, but used this perhaps unique and final historical chance very >>> badly; could not manage it properly to endure, Soviet Union and China used >>> this opportunity for humanity very badly. >>> >>> Now it is obvious that this will have a very, very big cost for humanity >>> and we are just at the beginning of this evil for humanity. >>> >>> But the unique truth is still there. There is still a unique exit from this >>> evil: A society based on social justice and equality. >>> >>> Otherwise, we are already on the edge of the extinction of humanity. In >>> Syria, in Ukraine, in Greece, in Europe... >>> >>> Ulvi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7 August 2015 at 08:43, larry smolucha wrote: >>> >>>> Message from Francine: >>>> >>>> In regard to David's remark regarding ". . . what American imperialism >>> had >>>> done to Asia" >>>> >>>> I have to ask David, what are you referring to? Do you consider the >>>> American bombing of Japan >>>> as American Imperialism against the continent of Asia? The war in Vietnam >>>> did not affect the entire continent of Asia. Both the War in Vietnam and >>>> the Korean War were matters of Chinese >>>> and Russian Imperialism, as much as, American Imperialism. The >>> Philippines >>>> were subjected to Spanish Imperialism, then American Imperialism >>>> (Philippine-American War of 1899-1902) and then Japanese Imperialism >>>> (1941-1945). >>>> >>>> There is the era of European colonial imperialism that subjugated India, >>>> Indochina, and the "Spice Islands." Albeit the memorable role of Charlton >>>> Heston in 55 Days in Peking, >>>> the USA was not a major world power at the time of the Boxer Rebellion >>>> (1899-1901). >>>> >>>> And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Muslim Imperialism into India, >>>> and inter-Asian >>>> Imperialism (Mongols invading China, etc.); oh yes and there was that >>>> nasty business of Genghis Khan invading Europe. >>>> >>>> The real issue is how to prevent (as well as stop) the cycles of violence >>>> and the subjugation of 'other' people. Unfortunately, it seems that the >>>> only way to stop violence and subjugation, has been with a horrendous act >>>> (that breaks the will to continue fighting). >>>> >>>> There has to be a better way. But what is it? Should the Allies have >>>> negotiated a treaty with Japan after the Battle of Okinawa? - that would >>>> surely have left large areas of Asia under Japanese control (certainly >>>> Korea). Where did the brutality of Japanese Imperialism spring from? >>>> >>>> There are blood feuds that did not begin because of Western (whether >>>> American or European) >>>> actions - the enmity between different sects of Islam is the catalyst >>>> behind ISIL. The slaughter of infidels and apostates is not a response to >>>> any aggression on their part, it is because they exist. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 >>>>> From: dkellogg60@gmail.com >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us >>>>> >>>>> A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. >>> Unlike >>>> my >>>>> generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just >>>> beginning >>>>> to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also >>>> had >>>>> a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his >>>>> grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics >>>> undergraduate >>>>> inducted into the army. >>>>> >>>>> Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather >>>>> obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read >>> John >>>>> Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the >>> majority >>>>> of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb >>>> should >>>>> be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but >>> that >>>>> somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert >>> Oppenheimer. >>>>> But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of >>>> Japan, >>>>> and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it >>>> cost. >>>>> When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by >>> the >>>>> fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, >>>>> flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the >>>>> decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the >>>>> good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually >>>>> dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like >>>> Luc, >>>>> interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off >>> from >>>>> school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo >>> had >>>>> been. >>>>> >>>>> We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps >>>> some >>>>> day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for >>> similar >>>>> horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's >>> right: >>>>> comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder >>> of >>>>> completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to >>>>> date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's >>>>> colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie >>> president >>>>> and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole >>> city >>>>> into six million degrees of heat. >>>>> >>>>> At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded >>> the >>>>> bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. >>>>> supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the >>>> museum >>>>> in the Peace Park, I learned that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Mike, Rafi and Francine: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you. This from the NY Times: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 >>>>>> The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, >>> but >>>>>> there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking >>> on: >>>>>> 1) the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of >>>> prime >>>>>> minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the >>> the >>>>>> ?Asian holocaust?, and >>>>>> 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among >>> Japanese. >>>>>> Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the >>>> rape >>>>>> of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. >>>>>> >>>>>> This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our >>>> peril, >>>>>> especially the history that puts us in a bad light. >>>>>> >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo >>> wrote: >>>>>>> It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here >>> is >>>> more >>>>>>> disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The >>>>>>> dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans >>>> to >>>>>>> engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know >>> will >>>>>> result >>>>>>> in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. >>>> The >>>>>>> asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing >>>> campaigns >>>>>>> of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both >>>> obscure in >>>>>>> moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical >>> record >>>> (at >>>>>>> least in case of the Asian Holocaust). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center >>>> one on >>>>>>> hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and >>>>>> attendant >>>>>>> loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar >>> qualities >>>> in >>>>>>> terms of the meanings that are linked to them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha < >>>> lsmolucha@hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please post this on XMCA: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Message from Francine: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or >>> incendiary >>>>>>>> bombing) could kill >>>>>>>> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII >>> six >>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>> to kill 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to >>>> kill >>>>>>>> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of >>> Manila >>>> and >>>>>>>> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate >>> of >>>>>>>> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is >>>> from 3 >>>>>>>> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). >>>> This >>>>>>>> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting >>> the >>>>>>>> Japanese Army. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in >>>>>> Hiroshima, >>>>>>>> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day >>>> is the >>>>>>>> suffering any less? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 >>>>>>>>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima and us >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days >>>> after >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and >>> just >>>>>>>> before >>>>>>>>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye >>>> gone >>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are >>>> now. >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and >>> thus >>>>>>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & >>>> Storch, >>>>>>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rafi Santo >>>>>>> Project Lead >>>>>>> Hive Research Lab >>>>>>> hiveresearchlab.org >>>>>>> A project of Indiana University and New York University >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indiana University - Learning Sciences >>>>>> >>>> > From annalisa@unm.edu Fri Aug 7 18:40:06 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 01:40:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: <55C55867.6060306@mira.net> References: , , , , , , , , <55C55867.6060306@mira.net> Message-ID: And thus... one is either with us or against us (or should I say with U.S. or against U.S.?)* *Please note the creaky iron knee of the subject line with the lack of capitalization. Poetry is where you find it. Thank you, mike. :) Kind regards, Annalisa From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Aug 8 10:37:53 2015 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=AAHaydi_Zulfei=E2=80=AC_=E2=80=AA?=) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 17:37:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2032846275.1328281.1439055473541.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello everybody -- There's an attachment . Quite free to delete ! One big request : Please don't go too far with Iran's case as far as I'm concerned . Thanks ! Best Haydi ? From: larry smolucha To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 8 August 2015, 4:04:39 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us Message from Francine: This thread began with Michael's suggestion that we "reflect on the bye gone days when humans were not as skilled in mass destruction as we are now" - my comments are not off topic. XMCA discussions of political topics would benefit from an understanding that we 'agree to disagree' at times. Or is there only? one party line for XMCA? And are XMCA discussions about atrocities to ignore the most glaring atrocities of the day (which just happen to be the activities of ISIL which have not involved nuclear weapons so far i.e., the methods of the "bye gone days")? David wants to restrict the definition of imperialism to only include the militaristic and economic expansionism of capitalist countries. That is David's personal definition not one that is found in any dictionary. The Japanese certainly had (have) the ability to level war crimes charges against the USA especially when the Japanese economy had begun to rival and even dominate that of the USA (1970's-1980's). The German economy has been thriving for fifty years, they could (have) filed war crime charges for the inhumane fire bombing of Dresden. And, au contriere, it is credible on the 70th Anniversary of Hiroshima to reflect on the very real possibility of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East (should Iran develop a nuclear weapon and other Arab nations, and perhaps Turkey, feel the need for nuclear deterrents). Some of us on XMCA grew up during the Cold War between the USA and the USSR, but other younger members of XMCA grew up after the Cold War. That we are on the eve of another nuclear arms race (this time in the Middle East) might seem only a vague and distant possibility. In regard to Ulvi's comments about the main catalyst behind ISIL being Western Imperialism, I disagree and reiterate my? opinion that the animosity between different Islamic sects is not a response to Western Imperialism.? In a power vacuum, as in post-war Iraq after the American troops left, there would be power plays by rival factions. The Ottoman Turks ruled the Middle East for 1,000 years suppressing any factional uprisings. The national boundary lines for countries in the Middle East were artificially drawn up by the British after WWI, and it is not surprising that factions would want to create new nation states (ISIL's caliphate) or extend the reach of established entities (like Iran formerly Persia). Ulvi remarks that in a different social order, the hostilities between different Islamic sects could be resolved peacefully. They never have been - but it is a good conceptual exercise to try to imagine what type of social order would bring about that 'utopian' situation. Theodul Ribot (1900) would refer to this as an activity involving a very specific type of creativity that he called the "Utopian Creative Imagination." I mention this for those XMCA members who have an interest in Vygotsky's theory of creativity (Vygotsky based his theory on Ribot's). Creativity is not just for artists and scientists. > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 06:35:22 +0900 > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > Ulvi: > > I agree with everything you say about imperialism and I think it's a very > important corrective to a thread which risks going very severely off topic > in a way that doesn't reflect much credit on our list (I think it's really > not very creditable to take the seventieth anniversary of an unprecedented > and unparalleled war crime for which the USA was uniquely responsible to > "reflect" on the violence of one's present enemies instead). > Imperialism should not be a word we just throw around to describe any form > of international bullying except our own. It should be a very precise and > well historicized description of how advanced capitalist countries export > their capital in order to try, temporarily, to overcome the great > contradiction under which capitalism has operated since its inception and > under which it still must operate. > > If capitalism was going to expropriate the surplus labor of workers without > compensation, the workers would, by definition, not be able to purchase the > products of their own labor: a national market could not suffice. > This meant that European capitalism, in order to expand, had to find > markets abroad: where the Dutch had established a trade in silver and > spices, the Americans established trade in slaves and sugar, the British > had to market textiles to India to sell opium to China to pay for cups of > tea back home. But of course imperialism only exported the contradiction, > it didn't solve it. Faced with the choice of buying Manchester textiles or > starving, the rajas and zamindars could opt for the former, but the > Bengali opium growers were soon reduced to the latter. Even in England, > workers began to consume opium because it was actually cheaper than food. > > The Second World War was fought by different countries for different > reasons: in China and the USSR it was a war of national defense, but for > the USA it was essentially an imperialist war fought for the world we enjoy > today, a world where (with the exception of my former profession of English > teaching) the movement of labor is severely restricted but the movement of > American capital knows no bounds at all. When the Japanese attacked Pearl > Harbor, they were not attacking an integral part of the USA but rather a > territory which had been violently expropriated by American sugar and > pineapple planters. The Americans did not bomb Hiroshima in order to > liberate China; they committed this completely unique wartime atrocity in > order to make sure that the Pacific Ocean would be an American lake today, > and to enforce the dominance of American companies guarded and guaranteed > by the military bases which remain even today in Korea and in Japan itself. > > When I read Shakespeare, I am always surprised at the emphasis he places on > kings doing their own fighting (rather than getting their unwilling > vassals, still less the common people). That is, after all, how Hamlet > begins; with two kings fighting it out man to man for the lands they covet. > I think what would have surprised and sickened Shakespeare is our own > acceptance of the idea that in any military conflict it is overwhelmingly > ordinary civilians who must die (modern technology ensured that for most of > the men who "fought and died" in Iraq and Afrghanistan fought a kind of war > game in which others had to die, and the "drone war" is only the most > extreme development of this kind of "asymmetrical warfare"). Hiroshima was > a milestone in the construction of that hideous and inhuman idea, and it > is that idea, and not the careless use of "imperialism" as an empty > epithet, which links us to Tamerlane and Genghis Khan. > > When Hirohito broadcast a statement accepting unconditional surrender > almost exactly seventy years ago, what he stressed was the cruelty and > barbarism of the enemy, which according to him was bent on the unchivalrous > and random destruction of ordinary Japanese people. Hirohito said that > surrender was the only way to continue to exist. For most of his people, it > was the very first time they had ever heard his voice. It was also one of > the first times their government had told them anything like the truth. > > David Kellogg > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:56 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > In my opinion (as an adhered atheist), the main catalyst behind ISIL is not > > the presence of historically formed sects of Islam prior to imperialism, > > but rather this main catalyst was imperialism, because imperialism > > recreates, manipulates these for its own interests, for its dominance. > > > > Another social order could and would provide another social, economic, > > political context for these historically formed enmities so that these > > would lose their hostilities and start to live as different religious > > sects, cultures, with complete respect to each other, in peace, just as > > different religious beliefs. > > > > Another social order could and would cease these enmities, hostilities, > > religious,racial and nationalistic, formed during the historical > > development of human society. > > > > The main problem is that humanity could seize this opportunity in the 20th > > century, but used this perhaps unique and final historical chance very > > badly; could not manage it properly to endure, Soviet Union and China used > > this opportunity for humanity very badly. > > > > Now it is obvious that this will have a very, very big cost for humanity > > and we are just at the? beginning of this evil for humanity. > > > > But the unique truth is still there. There is still a unique exit from this > > evil: A society based on social justice and equality. > > > > Otherwise, we are already on the edge of the extinction of humanity. In > > Syria, in Ukraine, in Greece, in Europe... > > > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7 August 2015 at 08:43, larry smolucha wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine: > > > > > > In regard to David's remark regarding ". . . what American imperialism > > had > > > done to Asia" > > > > > > I have to ask David, what are you referring to?? Do you consider the > > > American bombing of Japan > > > as American Imperialism against the continent of Asia? The war in Vietnam > > > did not affect the entire continent of Asia. Both the War in Vietnam and > > > the Korean War were matters of Chinese > > > and Russian Imperialism, as much as, American Imperialism. The > > Philippines > > > were subjected to Spanish Imperialism, then American Imperialism > > > (Philippine-American War of 1899-1902) and then Japanese Imperialism > > > (1941-1945). > > > > > > There is the era of European colonial imperialism that subjugated India, > > > Indochina, and the "Spice Islands." Albeit the memorable role of Charlton > > > Heston in 55 Days in Peking, > > > the USA was not a major world power at the time of the Boxer Rebellion > > > (1899-1901). > > > > > > And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Muslim Imperialism into India, > > > and inter-Asian > > > Imperialism (Mongols invading China, etc.); oh yes and there was that > > > nasty business of Genghis Khan invading Europe. > > > > > > The real issue is how to prevent (as well as stop) the cycles of violence > > > and the subjugation of 'other' people. Unfortunately, it seems that the > > > only way to stop violence and subjugation, has been with a horrendous act > > > (that breaks the will to continue fighting). > > > > > > There has to be a better way. But what is it? Should the Allies have > > > negotiated a treaty with Japan after the Battle of Okinawa? -? that would > > > surely have left large areas of Asia under Japanese control (certainly > > > Korea). Where did the brutality of Japanese Imperialism spring from? > > > > > > There are blood feuds that did not begin because of Western (whether > > > American or European) > > > actions - the enmity between different sects of Islam is the catalyst > > > behind ISIL. The slaughter of infidels and apostates is not a response to > > > any aggression on their part, it is because they exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2015 08:33:54 +0900 > > > > From: dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us > > > > > > > >? A few years ago, I took my sixteen year old nephew to Hiroshima. > > Unlike > > > my > > > > generation, Luc had no direct memory of Vietnam, but he was just > > > beginning > > > > to have a sense of what American imperialism had done to Asia. He also > > > had > > > > a vague sense that our own family was somehow involved: my father, his > > > > grandfather, had worked on the Manhattan Project as a physics > > > undergraduate > > > > inducted into the army. > > > > > > > > Dad didn't exactly defend the bombing. When I was sixteen, and rather > > > > obsessed with the uniqueness of the Nazi Holocaust, he made me read > > John > > > > Hersey's harrowing book "Hiroshima". Dad always claimed that the > > majority > > > > of physicists supported Leo Szilard, who had demanded that the bomb > > > should > > > > be used on an uninhabited island with the whole world watching, but > > that > > > > somehow they had been betrayed at the last minute by Robert > > Oppenheimer. > > > > But Dad did say more people would have died in a ground invasion of > > > Japan, > > > > and so in the end he believed that the bomb saved more lives than it > > > cost. > > > > > > > > When Luc and I toured the museum in the Peace Park, he was struck by > > the > > > > fact that the captain of the Enola Gay was only just thirty years old, > > > > flying a plane he'd named after his own mother, and that he made the > > > > decision to obliterate a whole city opportunistically, according to the > > > > good weather conditions, less than an hour before the bomb was actually > > > > dropped. A large number of those who died were sixteen year olds like > > > Luc, > > > > interested in the newly invented genre of manga, taking the day off > > from > > > > school to clear fire lanes in case the city were fire-bombed as Tokyo > > had > > > > been. > > > > > > > > We can, of course, discuss this or that comparison (who knows--perhaps > > > some > > > > day people will consider "old age" or "cancer" as responsible for > > similar > > > > horrors, albeit on a more extended time scale). But I think Mike's > > right: > > > > comparison is beside the point. This kind of opportunistic mass murder > > of > > > > completely innocent people on an hour's notice was unprecedented and to > > > > date unparalleled, and the reasons are technological. What my dad's > > > > colleagues at Los Alamos had really done was to enable a rookie > > president > > > > and a thirty-year-old colonel to throw one switch and plunge a whole > > city > > > > into six million degrees of heat. > > > > > > > > At the door of the museum, we saw a photograph of the men who loaded > > the > > > > bomb onto the Enola Gay at Tinian. In the centre was my father's Ph.D. > > > > supervisor, Phil Morrison. He wasn't smiling. > > > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the. I had grown up with John Hersey's marvWhile we were touring the > > > museum > > > > in the Peace Park, I learned that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, Rafi and Francine: > > > > > > > > > > Thank you. This from the NY Times: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/witnesses-to-hiroshima-atomic-bomb-pass-their-stories-to-a-new-generation.html?emc=edit_th_20150806&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=63154245 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The article profiles the commemoration of the victims of Hiroshima, > > but > > > > > there are two ?background? issues mentioned that are worth thinking > > on: > > > > > 1)? the efforts at remilitarization of Japan under the leadership of > > > prime > > > > > minister Shinzo Abe, something that must give pause in light of the > > the > > > > > ?Asian holocaust?, and > > > > > 2) the fact that the memory of Hiroshima is fading even among > > Japanese. > > > > > Shinzo Abe is probably counting on voters knowing even less about the > > > rape > > > > > of Nanking and the rest of what Japan did before Hiroshima. > > > > > > > > > > This CHAT is a constant reminder that we forget our history at our > > > peril, > > > > > especially the history that puts us in a bad light. > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Rafi Santo > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It's hard to know which of the two instances being discussed here > > is > > > more > > > > > > disturbing in terms of what they say about organized societies. The > > > > > > dropping of the atomic bomb(s) highlights the willingness of humans > > > to > > > > > > engage in specific decisions to engage in an act that they know > > will > > > > > result > > > > > > in instantly decimating 10s of thousands of people in a fell swoop. > > > The > > > > > > asian holocaust highlights the willingness to engage in ongoing > > > campaigns > > > > > > of destruction of human life, actions which are too often both > > > obscure in > > > > > > moment as well as not nearly as highlighted in the historical > > record > > > (at > > > > > > least in case of the Asian Holocaust). > > > > > > > > > > > > While not entirely parallel, the bombing of the World Trade Center > > > one on > > > > > > hand and resultant contemporary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and > > > > > attendant > > > > > > loss of life) come to mind in that the events have similar > > qualities > > > in > > > > > > terms of the meanings that are linked to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 12:10 PM, larry smolucha < > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Please post this on XMCA: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Message from Francine: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Reflecting on the bye gone days before an atomic bomb (or > > incendiary > > > > > >> bombing) could kill > > > > > >> 70,000 people at one day - yes it did take the Japanese in WWII > > six > > > > > weeks > > > > > >> to kill? 300,000 Chinese in 1937 in the Rape of Nanking, weeks to > > > kill > > > > > >> 100,000 civilian Philippine civilians in 1945 in the Rape of > > Manila > > > and > > > > > >> 100,000 civilian in 1942 in the Rape of Singapore. Total estimate > > of > > > > > >> civilians and prisoners of war killed by the Japanese in WWII is > > > from 3 > > > > > >> million to 10 million people (it is called the Asian Holocaust). > > > This > > > > > >> figure does not include those soldiers killed in combat fighting > > the > > > > > >> Japanese Army. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This does not diminish the tragic suffering and loss of life in > > > > > Hiroshima, > > > > > >> Nagasaki, and Tokyo. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> When entire cities are 'raped' for weeks not destroyed in one day > > > is the > > > > > >> suffering any less? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2015 08:16:39 -0400 > > > > > >>> From: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > > > >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l]? Hiroshima and us > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days > > > after > > > > > >> about > > > > > >>> as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and > > just > > > > > >> before > > > > > >>> like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye > > > gone > > > > > >> days > > > > > >>> when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are > > > now. > > > > > >>> Mike > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> -- > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and > > thus > > > > > >>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & > > > Storch, > > > > > >>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Rafi Santo > > > > > > Project Lead > > > > > > Hive Research Lab > > > > > > hiveresearchlab.org > > > > > > A project of Indiana University and New York University > > > > > > > > > > > > Indiana University - Learning Sciences > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Message from Francine-2.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 21718 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150808/e930f2ac/attachment.bin From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 8 10:48:03 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 11:48:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: <, > <, > <, > <, > <, > <, > <, > <, > <55C55867.6060306@mira.net> Message-ID: Nice! > On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > And thus... one is either with us or against us (or should I say with U.S. or against U.S.?)* > > *Please note the creaky iron knee of the subject line with the lack of capitalization. > > Poetry is where you find it. Thank you, mike. :) > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Aug 9 00:36:41 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 16:36:41 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: <55C55867.6060306@mira.net> Message-ID: Here's a bit of poetry I found in, of all places, Haydi's attachment. At first Haydi appears to be entirely off topic. But if you read it carefully and remember the story of Iran Air Flight 655, I think you will see that it is not. On the contrary, it is a poem in the spirit of Nazim Hikmet's great song "I come and stand at every door", something I remember and read every year at this time. https://www.marxists.org/subject/art/literature/nazim/icomeandstand.html Here's Haydi's version: I?m 72 Not among newer generations In our sky, too We see bright stars and American helicopters hovering over the sandy deserts of Tabass And a passenger plane flying over the Southern seas, Oman, Hit cruelly skilfully from an aircraft carrier, instantaneously powdered, converted to ashes Down to the surface of the great Ocean Memoirs of nears and dears silently, delicately, sleepily--still, very gracefully--finding their way to A doll singing and reflecting the remembrances of the owner a small child Recollecting with tears the interminable sea David Kellogg (with gratitude to Haydi) On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:48 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Nice! > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > And thus... one is either with us or against us (or should I say with > U.S. or against U.S.?)* > > > > *Please note the creaky iron knee of the subject line with the lack of > capitalization. > > > > Poetry is where you find it. Thank you, mike. :) > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From vygotsky@unm.edu Sun Aug 9 10:45:17 2015 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:45:17 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: <55C55867.6060306@mira.net> Message-ID: <000001d0d2cb$2aa7f9f0$7ff7edd0$@edu> Beautiful poem, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+vygotsky=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 1:37 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us Here's a bit of poetry I found in, of all places, Haydi's attachment. At first Haydi appears to be entirely off topic. But if you read it carefully and remember the story of Iran Air Flight 655, I think you will see that it is not. On the contrary, it is a poem in the spirit of Nazim Hikmet's great song "I come and stand at every door", something I remember and read every year at this time. https://www.marxists.org/subject/art/literature/nazim/icomeandstand.html Here's Haydi's version: I?m 72 Not among newer generations In our sky, too We see bright stars and American helicopters hovering over the sandy deserts of Tabass And a passenger plane flying over the Southern seas, Oman, Hit cruelly skilfully from an aircraft carrier, instantaneously powdered, converted to ashes Down to the surface of the great Ocean Memoirs of nears and dears silently, delicately, sleepily--still, very gracefully--finding their way to A doll singing and reflecting the remembrances of the owner a small child Recollecting with tears the interminable sea David Kellogg (with gratitude to Haydi) On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:48 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Nice! > > > On Aug 7, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > > > And thus... one is either with us or against us (or should I say > > with > U.S. or against U.S.?)* > > > > *Please note the creaky iron knee of the subject line with the lack > > of > capitalization. > > > > Poetry is where you find it. Thank you, mike. :) > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Annalisa > > > > > > > From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Aug 9 16:08:20 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 19:08:20 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These pictures from Hiroshima after the bombing are a reminder of why we don't need to make agreements about nuclear bombs or who has a right to possess them or who hasn't but ban them entirely across the world. None civilized nation should possess the ability to use one ever again. www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2015/08/06/history_of_hiroshima_panoramic_photographs_of_the_ruins_after_the_atomic.html?wpsrc=sh_all_dt_tw_top On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:16 AM, mike cole wrote: > 70 years ago 70,000 people evaporated in Hiroshima, a few days after about > as many were killed by Dresden-style fire bombing in Tokyo and just before > like numbers were killed in Nagasaki. > > It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bye gone days > when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. > Mike > > > > -- > > Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch, > Ecological Niche, 2008) > From annalisa@unm.edu Sun Aug 9 16:47:15 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 23:47:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi David, Seeing a black and white photo still captures the emotional content of the horror, I could almost hear the sound of an empty wind, they impact me so. Also, it's possible to see how painstaking it was for the photographers to take these photos and then stitch them together to make the panorama prints; something that is much easier to do today, even on an iPhone. I imagine they did these panoramic prints not because they wanted to show off their technical ability, but rather to make the point of how thorough the devastation was to people not physically present. They are more than historical documents. They are experiential. I know that seems quite obvious now (looking back), but we must imagine what we knew up to that time were the bombings of the great war and most of the second world war in which bombing was isolated to smaller targets, like buildings or bridges. Nothing had been imaginable like this! As I was looking at these photos on my computer, it even caught the eye of a fellow sitting next to me in the cafe, a stranger. This is proof (to me anyway) of how powerful these photos still are. Thank you for sharing the link of the photos. Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Sun Aug 9 17:54:13 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:54:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima and us In-Reply-To: References: <, > Message-ID: <958CD82B-D87F-46A8-ABF2-8FF84C17A5A3@gmail.com> Hi All, The same nation that produced and deployed the atomic bomb is also the birthplace of Michael Franti. I just went to one of his concerts yesterday evening in Santa Fe. I am finding more and more people, not least among my family, who find his songs, with their message of peace and justice, to be a tonic of hope and action in this crazy world. Any other Franti fans out there? Henry > On Aug 9, 2015, at 5:47 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Hi David, > > Seeing a black and white photo still captures the emotional content of the horror, I could almost hear the sound of an empty wind, they impact me so. > > Also, it's possible to see how painstaking it was for the photographers to take these photos and then stitch them together to make the panorama prints; something that is much easier to do today, even on an iPhone. > > I imagine they did these panoramic prints not because they wanted to show off their technical ability, but rather to make the point of how thorough the devastation was to people not physically present. They are more than historical documents. They are experiential. I know that seems quite obvious now (looking back), but we must imagine what we knew up to that time were the bombings of the great war and most of the second world war in which bombing was isolated to smaller targets, like buildings or bridges. Nothing had been imaginable like this! > > As I was looking at these photos on my computer, it even caught the eye of a fellow sitting next to me in the cafe, a stranger. This is proof (to me anyway) of how powerful these photos still are. > > Thank you for sharing the link of the photos. > > Kind regards, > > Annalisa From smago@uga.edu Mon Aug 10 03:17:47 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:17:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Recruit Reviewers In-Reply-To: <003701d0d30e$8d507e90$a7f17bb0$@org> References: <003701d0d30e$8d507e90$a7f17bb0$@org> Message-ID: For those of you interested in participating in the academic review process, here's an opportunity (tho just about any journal would love additional reviewers as well). p From: res@ccsenet.org [mailto:res@ccsenet.org] Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:44 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Recruit Reviewers Dear Peter Smagorinsky, I am Paige Dou, the editorial assistant of Review of European Studies. Review of European Studies is a peer-reviewed journal published by the Canadian Center of Science and Education and can be found both online and in print. The journal publishes research papers covering these subjects: culture, history, art, sociology, religion, politics, laws, education, psychology and economics, etc. Review of European Studies has been accepted by SciVerse Scopus. Recently, we receive more submissions than before, so we are recruiting reviewers for the journal now. If you are interested in becoming a reviewer, we welcome you to join us. Please find the application form and details at http://www.ccsenet.org/reviewer and e-mail the completed application form to res@ccsenet.org. We would appreciate it if you could share this information with your colleagues and associates. Thank you. Best Regards, Paige Dou Editorial Assistant Review of European Studies Canadian Center of Science and Education ************************************* Add: 1120 Finch Avenue West, Suite 701-309, Toronto, ON., M3J 3H7, Canada Tel: 1-416-642-2606 ext.230 Fax: 1-416-208-2608 E-mail: res@ccsenet.org Website: http://www.ccsenet.org/res From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Aug 10 05:21:01 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 12:21:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Recruit Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: <003701d0d30e$8d507e90$a7f17bb0$@org> Message-ID: Peter, This seems to be one of the many 'open-access' journals that charges authors a fee for publication. And despite the official-sounding title, "The Canadian Center of Science and Education (CCSE) is a private for-profit organization delivering support and services to educators and researchers in Canada and around the world." Private, and for profit. Martin On Aug 10, 2015, at 5:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > For those of you interested in participating in the academic review process, here's an opportunity (tho just about any journal would love additional reviewers as well). p > > From: res@ccsenet.org [mailto:res@ccsenet.org] > Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:44 PM > To: Peter Smagorinsky > Subject: Recruit Reviewers > > Dear Peter Smagorinsky, > > I am Paige Dou, the editorial assistant of Review of European Studies. Review of European Studies is a peer-reviewed journal published by the Canadian Center of Science and Education and can be found both online and in print. The journal publishes research papers covering these subjects: culture, history, art, sociology, religion, politics, laws, education, psychology and economics, etc. > > Review of European Studies has been accepted by SciVerse Scopus. Recently, we receive more submissions than before, so we are recruiting reviewers for the journal now. If you are interested in becoming a reviewer, we welcome you to join us. Please find the application form and details at http://www.ccsenet.org/reviewer and e-mail the completed application form to res@ccsenet.org. > > We would appreciate it if you could share this information with your colleagues and associates. > > Thank you. > > Best Regards, > > Paige Dou > Editorial Assistant > Review of European Studies > Canadian Center of Science and Education > ************************************* > Add: 1120 Finch Avenue West, Suite 701-309, Toronto, ON., M3J 3H7, Canada > Tel: 1-416-642-2606 ext.230 > Fax: 1-416-208-2608 > E-mail: res@ccsenet.org > Website: http://www.ccsenet.org/res > From smago@uga.edu Mon Aug 10 05:43:54 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 12:43:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Recruit Reviewers In-Reply-To: References: <003701d0d30e$8d507e90$a7f17bb0$@org> Message-ID: Oops, then sorry to interrupt the other conversations with this non-starter. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 8:21 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Recruit Reviewers Peter, This seems to be one of the many 'open-access' journals that charges authors a fee for publication. And despite the official-sounding title, "The Canadian Center of Science and Education (CCSE) is a private for-profit organization delivering support and services to educators and researchers in Canada and around the world." Private, and for profit. Martin On Aug 10, 2015, at 5:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > For those of you interested in participating in the academic review process, here's an opportunity (tho just about any journal would love additional reviewers as well). p > > From: res@ccsenet.org [mailto:res@ccsenet.org] > Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:44 PM > To: Peter Smagorinsky > Subject: Recruit Reviewers > > Dear Peter Smagorinsky, > > I am Paige Dou, the editorial assistant of Review of European Studies. Review of European Studies is a peer-reviewed journal published by the Canadian Center of Science and Education and can be found both online and in print. The journal publishes research papers covering these subjects: culture, history, art, sociology, religion, politics, laws, education, psychology and economics, etc. > > Review of European Studies has been accepted by SciVerse Scopus. Recently, we receive more submissions than before, so we are recruiting reviewers for the journal now. If you are interested in becoming a reviewer, we welcome you to join us. Please find the application form and details at http://www.ccsenet.org/reviewer and e-mail the completed application form to res@ccsenet.org. > > We would appreciate it if you could share this information with your colleagues and associates. > > Thank you. > > Best Regards, > > Paige Dou > Editorial Assistant > Review of European Studies > Canadian Center of Science and Education > ************************************* > Add: 1120 Finch Avenue West, Suite 701-309, Toronto, ON., M3J 3H7, Canada > Tel: 1-416-642-2606 ext.230 > Fax: 1-416-208-2608 > E-mail: res@ccsenet.org > Website: http://www.ccsenet.org/res > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Aug 10 06:09:31 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Message-ID: Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write Thought this article might interest this group of folks! Kind regards, Annalisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 08:02:48 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 08:02:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Annalisa Aguilar" Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write Thought this article might interest this group of folks! Kind regards, Annalisa From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Aug 10 08:20:35 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:20:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE2649@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Annalisa and Larry, This is an issue that has been very much on my mind recently, one that I think will help define "digital tools" going forward (digital tools seems too broad and too specific a sign at once and lately I have been wondering if it will begin to fade). The issue which we have only grappled with on the margins is does the Internet as a tool change the way we do things or is the way we do things changed because we have a new tool that is more sympathetic to our activities. The difference between what Andrew Feenberg terms seeing technology as substantive or seeing technology at instrumental. The stance we take has far reaching implications, and to not acknowledge and work through the stand that we take is both lazy and can cause difficulties. So Paul Mason takes very much a substantive view. It is the digital tools that are shortening our attention spans (remember when everybody was making the argument that Sesame Street television was changing our attention spans - now they are the good ones), making us read differently, making us write differently. In a sense he is saying who we are is being controlled by our technology. Well I guess that takes a hell of a lot of responsibility off of us. Humans love to off load responsibility I think. There is also a good deal of underlying yelling at those meddling kids to get off of his lawn. They don't know what great literature is because they have been CHANGED by their damned gadgets - and not for the better mind you. But let me suggest another possibility, counter point to Mason's. Most of the time when I read, even a good book, my mind wanders. Sometimes I am just pretending to read while thinking about something else. There are times when I am so consumed by a book that my mind becomes consumed by the narrative - but those are few and far between and I relish those memories (every time I recommend the book Shogun or Lonesome Dove to somebody I tell them I am jealous of the experience they are going to have). But the great majority of time my mind wanders into different caverns of my thinking. So maybe e-books aren't changing the way we read, but we are using e-books because they are better tools for the way we always read. I don't know, but I think the stance you take is important. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Annalisa Aguilar" Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write Thought this article might interest this group of folks! Kind regards, Annalisa From lspopov@bgsu.edu Mon Aug 10 08:42:44 2015 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:42:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hello everyone, I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. Best wishes, Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Annalisa Aguilar" Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write Thought this article might interest this group of folks! Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 08:47:41 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:47:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE2649@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE2649@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Annalisa, Larry, Michael, I have not been able to read a novel in years. But there have been times when I did. I remember with great pleasure Shogun. Doris Lessing. The Alexandrian Quartet. Lately, I only seem to get into novels through books on tape. But then, only when the reader is good. And I only listen to books on tape when I?m driving on a long trip. Much of my ?reading? is podcasts that I listen to when I?m riding to my local gym or working in the yard or riding to school (on my bike or in a bus). Sitting and reading a book, fiction or non-fiction, is not something I do very much. I hear that sitting is not good for you, probably an overdone rule of thumb, but I there is a health issue. I suspect that I contribute to this chat partly to keep moving! Larry?s connection to Dewey seems right on though. And Michael?s point makes me think of affordances and the Gibsons, as has been discussed on the chat. Henry > On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > Hi Annalisa and Larry, > > This is an issue that has been very much on my mind recently, one that I think will help define "digital tools" going forward (digital tools seems too broad and too specific a sign at once and lately I have been wondering if it will begin to fade). > > The issue which we have only grappled with on the margins is does the Internet as a tool change the way we do things or is the way we do things changed because we have a new tool that is more sympathetic to our activities. The difference between what Andrew Feenberg terms seeing technology as substantive or seeing technology at instrumental. The stance we take has far reaching implications, and to not acknowledge and work through the stand that we take is both lazy and can cause difficulties. > > So Paul Mason takes very much a substantive view. It is the digital tools that are shortening our attention spans (remember when everybody was making the argument that Sesame Street television was changing our attention spans - now they are the good ones), making us read differently, making us write differently. In a sense he is saying who we are is being controlled by our technology. Well I guess that takes a hell of a lot of responsibility off of us. Humans love to off load responsibility I think. There is also a good deal of underlying yelling at those meddling kids to get off of his lawn. They don't know what great literature is because they have been CHANGED by their damned gadgets - and not for the better mind you. > > But let me suggest another possibility, counter point to Mason's. Most of the time when I read, even a good book, my mind wanders. Sometimes I am just pretending to read while thinking about something else. There are times when I am so consumed by a book that my mind becomes consumed by the narrative - but those are few and far between and I relish those memories (every time I recommend the book Shogun or Lonesome Dove to somebody I tell them I am jealous of the experience they are going to have). But the great majority of time my mind wanders into different caverns of my thinking. So maybe e-books aren't changing the way we read, but we are using e-books because they are better tools for the way we always read. I don't know, but I think the stance you take is important. > > Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? > > Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. > > Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" > > Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". > > The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. > The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? > Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". > > I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". > > Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? > > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Annalisa Aguilar" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! > > > http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write > > > Thought this article might interest this group of folks! > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 08:49:47 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:49:47 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Lubomir, Another thing about TV and movies is that you just sit there! Henry > On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. > > > Best wishes, > > Lubomir > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? > > Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. > > Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" > > Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". > > The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. > The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? > Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". > > I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". > > Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? > > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Annalisa Aguilar" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! > > > http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write > > > Thought this article might interest this group of folks! > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 09:50:35 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:50:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55c8d6a4.2784460a.bd01.4724@mx.google.com> To stay with the notion of "provisional" as an adjective linking to "experiences". I wonder if Dewey was being prophetic, anticipating where our cultural meaning was trending. If "meaning" when germinated is actually transforming the "stream" of conscious appearances by ordering or structuring THIS stream IN ORDER TO generate meaning then this transformation as a germinating phenomena becomes our shared experiences. THEN the notion of life be/coming "provisional" is linked to a loss of "immersive" experiences that are undergone. The terms "instrumental" & "substantive" can also be explored through Dewey's understanding of experiences becoming "an" experience. It may be that the instruments or artifacts (including psychological tools) are useful for germinating "meaningful experiences". If life is tending to become more "provisional" than it may be a loss of what is "substantive" when we loose a sense of mutual "meaning". If Dewey is indicating that it is the quality of our experiences that must CONTAIN both doing/action & undergoing & the "interval" ( "/" ) then the loss of immersive experiences brought TO FORM (the human way of being using instruments) creates life that is felt as "provisional". A life of mutual undergoing is a life that is substantive, not provisional. Dewey also valued "inquiry" to germinate democratic "freedom" and understood the "shadow" side of immersive shared experience and the central place of our shared RESPONSIBILITY to contain the shadow side of becoming inclusive/exclusive. Eugene Gendlin's notion of "embodied" befindlichkeit as a notion of our "be finding" ourselves in "moods" as expressing the substantive quality of immersive experience has a place in how we understand life AS "provisional" or "substantive" Tools are instrumental in germinating "an" experience and as instruments facilitate (but do they also determine?) meaning?. This returns is to our shared responsibility. -----Original Message----- From: "HENRY SHONERD" Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 8:51 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing Lubomir, Another thing about TV and movies is that you just sit there! Henry > On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. > > > Best wishes, > > Lubomir > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? > > Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. > > Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" > > Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". > > The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. > The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? > Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". > > I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". > > Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? > > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Annalisa Aguilar" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! > > > http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write > > > Thought this article might interest this group of folks! > > > Kind regards, > > > Annalisa > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 12:53:04 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:53:04 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening In-Reply-To: <55c8d6a4.2784460a.bd01.4724@mx.google.com> References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> <55c8d6a4.2784460a.bd01.4724@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <842AB503-8930-4C60-9B58-AF64658BA771@gmail.com> Larry, I find so many points of resonance in your post that it ?blows my mind?, as the 60?s was fond of saying: You have discussed undergoing before, but in the context of your post it evokes movement and grounding as I had not sensed before. Movement is embodied in a dynamic way. Grounding is a humbling experience both intellectually and emotionally. I have added to the subject line, expanding it from just writing to reading, speaking and listening, because I think the thread is broader than writing alone. I would add also that reading and listening are potentially very humbling, especially when one reads and listens from the heart. I have attached an article from Gendlin. Have you read it? (I apologize that I haven?t, but time in an email chat really is of the essence.) Do you think it resonates with your post? Henry > On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Lplarry wrote: > > To stay with the notion of "provisional" as an adjective linking to "experiences". > > I wonder if Dewey was being prophetic, anticipating where our cultural meaning was trending. > > If "meaning" when germinated is actually transforming the "stream" of conscious appearances by ordering or structuring THIS stream IN ORDER TO generate meaning then this transformation as a germinating phenomena becomes our shared experiences. > > THEN the notion of life be/coming "provisional" is linked to a loss of "immersive" experiences that are undergone. > > The terms "instrumental" & "substantive" can also be explored through Dewey's understanding of experiences becoming "an" experience. > It may be that the instruments or artifacts (including psychological tools) are useful for germinating "meaningful experiences". > > If life is tending to become more "provisional" than it may be a loss of what is "substantive" when we loose a sense of mutual "meaning". > If Dewey is indicating that it is the quality of our experiences that must CONTAIN both doing/action & undergoing & the "interval" ( "/" ) then the loss of immersive experiences brought TO FORM (the human way of being using instruments) creates life that is felt as "provisional". > > A life of mutual undergoing is a life that is substantive, not provisional. > > Dewey also valued "inquiry" to germinate democratic "freedom" and understood the "shadow" side of immersive shared experience and the central place of our shared RESPONSIBILITY to contain the shadow side of becoming inclusive/exclusive. > > Eugene Gendlin's notion of "embodied" befindlichkeit as a notion of our "be finding" ourselves in "moods" as expressing the substantive quality of immersive experience has a place in how we understand life AS "provisional" or "substantive" > Tools are instrumental in germinating "an" experience and as instruments facilitate (but do they also determine?) meaning?. > This returns is to our shared responsibility. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 8:51 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing > > Lubomir, > Another thing about TV and movies is that you just sit there! > Henry > >> On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Lubomir >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >> >> Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? >> >> Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. >> >> Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" >> >> Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". >> >> The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. >> The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? >> Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". >> >> I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". >> >> Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? >> >> Larry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Annalisa Aguilar" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >> >> Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! >> >> >> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write >> >> >> Thought this article might interest this group of folks! >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> Annalisa >> >> > > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Aug 10 13:08:18 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:08:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing In-Reply-To: <55c8d6a4.2784460a.bd01.4724@mx.google.com> References: <55c8bd59.c41b460a.e4bf6.3b04@mx.google.com> , <55c8d6a4.2784460a.bd01.4724@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, Michael, Lubomir, and Henry, Thinking about what Larry said: I think life is simultaneously provisional and immersive, but perhaps what Mason is "complaining about" is that romantic notion he has of being literate, and that being literate is only constituted by immersive reading experiences. What Mason isn't quite on board about it seems is that literacy is not statically defined on high, which I think is what Lubomir means when he mentions the status of paperbacks. Weren't a lot of great authors generated by the form of the paperback? Why not with eBooks? When I was a teenager visiting my grandmother, I was reading Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogy that summer. She saw me reading it and she said, "Oh. You read paperbacks," as if I had committed a crime. I had no idea that paperbacks came from a lowbrow form of "literature," as this was the late 70's, so there you have it. Her comment truly confused me at the time because this was LeGuin!! I was enthralled by the world of Ged! :) It wasn't until I learned about pulp fiction that I was able to make sense of her disdain and not take it so personally. I suspect Mason is making a similar mental transaction as my grandmother. What I'm inclined to consider is that we adopt and adapt to technologies while we are developing our sense of self, and that these technologies are ones that we tend to hold on to and prefer not to let go of if we can help it into our older years. I think it's because of the way we've mapped the activity in our bodies and so we have facility with them. If we have to choose technologies we are unfamiliar compared to something familiar, we'll go with what is familiar because it is easier for us, to the degree if that experience might be uncomfortable we still will gravitate to it by habit. Not always of course. But for some people in which unfamiliar is too painful to learn about, makes even the familiarly uncomfortable more enjoyable! So what I think is that when "the kids" are using eBooks or iPads, who's to say that their experiences are not immersive for them? Even if not immersive for us older folks? Mason misses this point. I also agree with Henry that literacy can have many forms. I've never read Great Expectations, but I watched the two-part series aired on PBS recently and highly enjoyed it enough where I might actually read it. Of course, I also admire Henry's creative literacy to listen to books on tape, podcasts, and what-have-you, while doing other activities. I'd imagine that he's mapping his literacy throughout his nervous system! I can't imagine a more immersive way to read something. :) I'm not familiar enough with Dewey, though he's on my reading list, so I can't comment too much on Larry's contrast and comparisons concerning the depth of experiences. But Michael does make an observation about Mason that I agree very much with, that Mason believes technology is substantive, not instrumental. I see technology as instrumental, but in the act of using the instrument we can also be changed ourselves in the way we might think about an activity. I don't think that we are passive to the technology as Mason seems to believe, if that is what a substantive viewpoint means. Certainly having a Kindle will make it easier to bring the equivalent of two moving boxes of books with you on a summer trip. But it is true for me that reading on the screen will not bring that same experience of knowing "exactly" where a text is inside the stream of text in the same way of flipping to it in a book. But perhaps that's just our generation? Perhaps the younger ones will have an analogous sense of "place," but it is vertically mapped in two-dimensions rather than mapped by depth in three? For some reason this makes me think about chess, because I was remembering 3-D chess in Star Trek. It seems what is actually happening is not a development of complexity into 3D chess but 2D or 1D chess because it's flattened to the screen and becoming more abstract. Maybe all that is actually here is going into that singularity thang (written tongue in cheek). Who knows? Kind regards, Annalisa From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 13:14:07 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:14:07 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening References: <842AB503-8930-4C60-9B58-AF64658BA771@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A172EBA-7333-4CFA-A043-C9B8E83EF2A6@gmail.com> Whoops! The article, which I didn?t attach, The Edge of Awareness, is ABOUT Gendlin?s work BY Lyn Preston. Here it is. Henry > Begin forwarded message: > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening > From: HENRY SHONERD > Date: August 10, 2015 at 1:53:04 PM MDT > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Larry, > I find so many points of resonance in your post that it ?blows my mind?, as the 60?s was fond of saying: > You have discussed undergoing before, but in the context of your post it evokes movement and grounding as I had not sensed before. Movement is embodied in a dynamic way. Grounding is a humbling experience both intellectually and emotionally. I have added to the subject line, expanding it from just writing to reading, speaking and listening, because I think the thread is broader than writing alone. I would add also that reading and listening are potentially very humbling, especially when one reads and listens from the heart. I have attached an article from Gendlin. Have you read it? (I apologize that I haven?t, but time in an email chat really is of the essence.) Do you think it resonates with your post? > Henry > > >> On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Lplarry wrote: >> >> To stay with the notion of "provisional" as an adjective linking to "experiences". >> >> I wonder if Dewey was being prophetic, anticipating where our cultural meaning was trending. >> >> If "meaning" when germinated is actually transforming the "stream" of conscious appearances by ordering or structuring THIS stream IN ORDER TO generate meaning then this transformation as a germinating phenomena becomes our shared experiences. >> >> THEN the notion of life be/coming "provisional" is linked to a loss of "immersive" experiences that are undergone. >> >> The terms "instrumental" & "substantive" can also be explored through Dewey's understanding of experiences becoming "an" experience. >> It may be that the instruments or artifacts (including psychological tools) are useful for germinating "meaningful experiences". >> >> If life is tending to become more "provisional" than it may be a loss of what is "substantive" when we loose a sense of mutual "meaning". >> If Dewey is indicating that it is the quality of our experiences that must CONTAIN both doing/action & undergoing & the "interval" ( "/" ) then the loss of immersive experiences brought TO FORM (the human way of being using instruments) creates life that is felt as "provisional". >> >> A life of mutual undergoing is a life that is substantive, not provisional. >> >> Dewey also valued "inquiry" to germinate democratic "freedom" and understood the "shadow" side of immersive shared experience and the central place of our shared RESPONSIBILITY to contain the shadow side of becoming inclusive/exclusive. >> >> Eugene Gendlin's notion of "embodied" befindlichkeit as a notion of our "be finding" ourselves in "moods" as expressing the substantive quality of immersive experience has a place in how we understand life AS "provisional" or "substantive" >> Tools are instrumental in germinating "an" experience and as instruments facilitate (but do they also determine?) meaning?. >> This returns is to our shared responsibility. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "HENRY SHONERD" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 8:51 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >> >> Lubomir, >> Another thing about TV and movies is that you just sit there! >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>> >>> Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? >>> >>> Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. >>> >>> Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" >>> >>> Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". >>> >>> The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. >>> The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? >>> Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". >>> >>> I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". >>> >>> Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Annalisa Aguilar" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>> >>> Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! >>> >>> >>> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write >>> >>> >>> Thought this article might interest this group of folks! >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >> >> > From annalisa@unm.edu Mon Aug 10 13:17:08 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 20:17:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening In-Reply-To: <7A172EBA-7333-4CFA-A043-C9B8E83EF2A6@gmail.com> References: <842AB503-8930-4C60-9B58-AF64658BA771@gmail.com>, <7A172EBA-7333-4CFA-A043-C9B8E83EF2A6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Take three? ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 2:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening Whoops! The article, which I didn?t attach, The Edge of Awareness, is ABOUT Gendlin?s work BY Lyn Preston. Here it is. Henry > Begin forwarded message: > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening > From: HENRY SHONERD > Date: August 10, 2015 at 1:53:04 PM MDT > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Larry, > I find so many points of resonance in your post that it ?blows my mind?, as the 60?s was fond of saying: > You have discussed undergoing before, but in the context of your post it evokes movement and grounding as I had not sensed before. Movement is embodied in a dynamic way. Grounding is a humbling experience both intellectually and emotionally. I have added to the subject line, expanding it from just writing to reading, speaking and listening, because I think the thread is broader than writing alone. I would add also that reading and listening are potentially very humbling, especially when one reads and listens from the heart. I have attached an article from Gendlin. Have you read it? (I apologize that I haven?t, but time in an email chat really is of the essence.) Do you think it resonates with your post? > Henry > > >> On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Lplarry wrote: >> >> To stay with the notion of "provisional" as an adjective linking to "experiences". >> >> I wonder if Dewey was being prophetic, anticipating where our cultural meaning was trending. >> >> If "meaning" when germinated is actually transforming the "stream" of conscious appearances by ordering or structuring THIS stream IN ORDER TO generate meaning then this transformation as a germinating phenomena becomes our shared experiences. >> >> THEN the notion of life be/coming "provisional" is linked to a loss of "immersive" experiences that are undergone. >> >> The terms "instrumental" & "substantive" can also be explored through Dewey's understanding of experiences becoming "an" experience. >> It may be that the instruments or artifacts (including psychological tools) are useful for germinating "meaningful experiences". >> >> If life is tending to become more "provisional" than it may be a loss of what is "substantive" when we loose a sense of mutual "meaning". >> If Dewey is indicating that it is the quality of our experiences that must CONTAIN both doing/action & undergoing & the "interval" ( "/" ) then the loss of immersive experiences brought TO FORM (the human way of being using instruments) creates life that is felt as "provisional". >> >> A life of mutual undergoing is a life that is substantive, not provisional. >> >> Dewey also valued "inquiry" to germinate democratic "freedom" and understood the "shadow" side of immersive shared experience and the central place of our shared RESPONSIBILITY to contain the shadow side of becoming inclusive/exclusive. >> >> Eugene Gendlin's notion of "embodied" befindlichkeit as a notion of our "be finding" ourselves in "moods" as expressing the substantive quality of immersive experience has a place in how we understand life AS "provisional" or "substantive" >> Tools are instrumental in germinating "an" experience and as instruments facilitate (but do they also determine?) meaning?. >> This returns is to our shared responsibility. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "HENRY SHONERD" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 8:51 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >> >> Lubomir, >> Another thing about TV and movies is that you just sit there! >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. >>> >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>> >>> Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? >>> >>> Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. >>> >>> Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" >>> >>> Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". >>> >>> The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. >>> The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? >>> Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". >>> >>> I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". >>> >>> Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Annalisa Aguilar" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>> >>> Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! >>> >>> >>> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write >>> >>> >>> Thought this article might interest this group of folks! >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> >>> Annalisa >>> >>> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 10 13:23:31 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:23:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening In-Reply-To: References: <842AB503-8930-4C60-9B58-AF64658BA771@gmail.com> <, > <7A172EBA-7333-4CFA-A043-C9B8E83EF2A6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BEFE009-3458-4D49-A98C-085991CF5174@gmail.com> Really?!! Damn! So here?s take three. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The Edge fo awareness.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 188145 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150810/6325aacb/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- > On Aug 10, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Annalisa Aguilar wrote: > > Take three? > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+annalisa=unm.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of HENRY SHONERD > Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 2:14 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening > > Whoops! The article, which I didn?t attach, The Edge of Awareness, is ABOUT Gendlin?s work BY Lyn Preston. Here it is. > Henry > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing/reading/speaking/listening >> From: HENRY SHONERD >> Date: August 10, 2015 at 1:53:04 PM MDT >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> Larry, >> I find so many points of resonance in your post that it ?blows my mind?, as the 60?s was fond of saying: >> You have discussed undergoing before, but in the context of your post it evokes movement and grounding as I had not sensed before. Movement is embodied in a dynamic way. Grounding is a humbling experience both intellectually and emotionally. I have added to the subject line, expanding it from just writing to reading, speaking and listening, because I think the thread is broader than writing alone. I would add also that reading and listening are potentially very humbling, especially when one reads and listens from the heart. I have attached an article from Gendlin. Have you read it? (I apologize that I haven?t, but time in an email chat really is of the essence.) Do you think it resonates with your post? >> Henry >> >> >>> On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>> To stay with the notion of "provisional" as an adjective linking to "experiences". >>> >>> I wonder if Dewey was being prophetic, anticipating where our cultural meaning was trending. >>> >>> If "meaning" when germinated is actually transforming the "stream" of conscious appearances by ordering or structuring THIS stream IN ORDER TO generate meaning then this transformation as a germinating phenomena becomes our shared experiences. >>> >>> THEN the notion of life be/coming "provisional" is linked to a loss of "immersive" experiences that are undergone. >>> >>> The terms "instrumental" & "substantive" can also be explored through Dewey's understanding of experiences becoming "an" experience. >>> It may be that the instruments or artifacts (including psychological tools) are useful for germinating "meaningful experiences". >>> >>> If life is tending to become more "provisional" than it may be a loss of what is "substantive" when we loose a sense of mutual "meaning". >>> If Dewey is indicating that it is the quality of our experiences that must CONTAIN both doing/action & undergoing & the "interval" ( "/" ) then the loss of immersive experiences brought TO FORM (the human way of being using instruments) creates life that is felt as "provisional". >>> >>> A life of mutual undergoing is a life that is substantive, not provisional. >>> >>> Dewey also valued "inquiry" to germinate democratic "freedom" and understood the "shadow" side of immersive shared experience and the central place of our shared RESPONSIBILITY to contain the shadow side of becoming inclusive/exclusive. >>> >>> Eugene Gendlin's notion of "embodied" befindlichkeit as a notion of our "be finding" ourselves in "moods" as expressing the substantive quality of immersive experience has a place in how we understand life AS "provisional" or "substantive" >>> Tools are instrumental in germinating "an" experience and as instruments facilitate (but do they also determine?) meaning?. >>> This returns is to our shared responsibility. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "HENRY SHONERD" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 8:51 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>> >>> Lubomir, >>> Another thing about TV and movies is that you just sit there! >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:42 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> I don't see a big problem here. Book writing and publishing follows the history of film-making. Movies used to be pieces of art, just like theater plays. See what TV and commercialization by Hollywood did to the art of filmmaking. If you commercialize something, you have to play to the market, vast masses of people, semi-educated and not educated. So, authors start catering to them. We have had such books for decades -- the "paperbacks." The good news is that even reading such simplistic and simplified fiction is better than watching crime stories on TV. Still a step forward. The written word pushes the imagination, people develop their ability to imagine, to reconstruct images, to experience, to think abstractly. The TV/film industry offer everything ready and flowing in images, no need to make an effort, just use our prehistoric instincts and skills. Thinking with words is still better than thinking with images. Just a few thoughts. You can correct me for the details. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Lubomir >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>>> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:03 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>>> >>>> Paul Mason points up one relation that causes wonder? >>>> >>>> Novels that are memorable are "immersive" experiences (in Dewey's sense of undergoing experience. >>>> >>>> Today (contempory) types or kinds of reading are more "provisional" >>>> >>>> Annalisa, this linking to our lives becoming more "provisional" (less depth and lived more on the surface) is a phenomena that Dewey would explain as the stream of experiences not becoming "ordered" or "structured" as "having AN experience". >>>> >>>> The loss of memorable experiences when living within the ongoing flow of experiences (the stream of appearances) when we don't pause to incorporate the corpus as embodied "meaning" that has been lived through in depth. >>>> The metaphor of depth/surface as a way of locating ourselves in "spaces OF ....? >>>> Not space as geometric but space as places OF (upon which) meaning "forms". >>>> >>>> I wonder if the phenomena Paul Mason is reflecting on is an aspect of what Dewey more generally is exploring with his notion of "experiences" be/coming having "an" immersive experience that is "lived-in" and so not "provisional". >>>> >>>> Is life be/coming more "provisional" and therefore less "meaningful"? >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Annalisa Aguilar" >>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?10 6:10 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Paul Mason's comment on how ebooks are changing writing >>>> >>>> Not sure I agree exactly, but I do agree that tools change us! >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/10/ebooks-are-changing-the-way-we-read-and-the-way-novelists-write >>>> >>>> >>>> Thought this article might interest this group of folks! >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Annalisa >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 10 17:31:44 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 17:31:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Alamagordo, Bikini. A reflective experience Message-ID: While away this past week, I visited the Art Gallery of Toronto. Earlier in the day I had read through reflections about Hiroshima that followed my note on the subject of Aug 6/7. Recall that I had written "It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bygone days when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. ?I was thinking about the two poems that David/Haydi posted while walking over to the museum. I had no idea of "an experience" I was to have that day. Attached are two paintings that were parts of exhibits at the museum. One room had some extremely valuable, classical paintings, among which was Ruben's "Massacre of the Innocents." The other was an exhibition of photos about the dawn of the age of atomic warfare, which contained many of the kinds of photographs members of xmca have had a chance to see thanks to the discussion. Those I was prepared for, but the photo attached along with the Reubens painting I was not prepared for. I attach them side by side. The second one was a photo op created to assure worried US citizens that radiation was not a problem and/or as a demonstration of power, according to the explanatory text that accompanied it. The juxtaposition got me reflecting all over again. Maybe you will find it interesting. ?mike ? ? ? ? -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Peter_Paul_Rubens_Massacre_of_the_Innocents.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24561 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150810/f1bd7c55/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0336.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 375999 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150810/f1bd7c55/attachment-0001.jpe From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:23:07 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 08:23:07 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Alamagordo, Bikini. A reflective experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The picture of the cake reminded me of this article that displays how Hiroshima was picked up for destruction: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/08/hiroshima-nagasaki-atomic-bomb-anniversary/400448/ It reminded me of the notion of banality of evil. The phrase "the devil is in the details" apply awfully here. David On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:31 PM, mike cole wrote: > While away this past week, I visited the Art Gallery of Toronto. Earlier in > the day I had read through reflections about Hiroshima that followed my > note on the subject of Aug 6/7. Recall that I had written > > "It seems worthwhile pausing for a minute to think about those bygone days > > when we humans were not as skilled at mass extinction as we are now. > > > ?I was thinking about the two poems that David/Haydi posted while walking > over to the museum. I had no idea of "an experience" I was to have that > day. > > > Attached are two paintings that were parts of exhibits at the museum. One > room had some extremely valuable, classical paintings, among which was > Ruben's "Massacre of the Innocents." The other was an exhibition of photos > about the dawn of the age of atomic warfare, which contained many of the > kinds of > > photographs members of xmca have had a chance to see thanks to the > discussion. Those I was prepared for, but the photo attached along with the > Reubens painting I was not prepared for. I attach them side by side. The > second one was a photo op created to assure worried US citizens that > radiation was not a problem and/or as a demonstration of power, according > to the explanatory text that accompanied it. > > > The juxtaposition got me reflecting all over again. Maybe you will find it > interesting. > ?mike > ? > ? > > > > > ? > ? > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Aug 11 07:58:32 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:58:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Recent Russian research in English Message-ID: Folks might be interested in this publication out of Moscow State U. The article in question is on parent-child interaction, but there are others of potential interest in this volume. fyi mike http://psychologyinrussia.com/volumes/index.php?article=3689 == -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Wed Aug 12 03:10:42 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:10:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Job! Message-ID: From: Mi Song Kim [mailto:misong.kim@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 5:33 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Mi Song Dear Peter, I hope your summer is going well. Would you kindly share the attached Job ads to the Cultural and Historical Research SIG listserv? Best Regards, Mi Song. -- Mi Song Kim, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Faculty of Education University of Western Ontario 1137 Western Road London, ON, CANADA N6G 1G7 Telephone: (519) 661-2111 x 88601 Fax: (519) 661-3833 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: STEM.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 831837 bytes Desc: STEM.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150812/928d2a28/attachment-0003.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ECE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 910795 bytes Desc: ECE.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150812/928d2a28/attachment-0004.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Literacy.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 722162 bytes Desc: Literacy.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150812/928d2a28/attachment-0005.pdf From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Aug 12 10:58:09 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:58:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Alamagordo, Bikini. A reflective experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it worthy to quote something that Marie Antoinette never said about eating cake? Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Wed Aug 12 21:09:25 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 04:09:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Just learned about this Message-ID: Hi esteemed Xmcars! I just learned about this website: http://theelders.org/ It was founded by Nelson Mandela. Just thought you might like to know about it? Kind regards, Annalisa From annalisa@unm.edu Thu Aug 13 17:17:10 2015 From: annalisa@unm.edu (Annalisa Aguilar) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 00:17:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Is this really happening??? Message-ID: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/13/cuckservative-republicans-conservatives-jeb-bush For your reference! Kind regards, Annalisa From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Mon Aug 17 12:13:21 2015 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 19:13:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] UBC Position Announcements Message-ID: <58A29F9A-83F6-4172-B2B4-26673A724086@mail.ubc.ca> Dear XMCAers, A position announcement below for my Department in Inclusive Education. We are also seeking a Department Head, the search last year failed, and we have yet to see an updated description; last year's is included below. Oh, and a President. Lots going on here! Best to all, jen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ECPS Department Head, 2014-2015.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 131221 bytes Desc: ECPS Department Head, 2014-2015.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150817/1588f4a3/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecps-sped advertisement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 229926 bytes Desc: ecps-sped advertisement.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150817/1588f4a3/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:46:23 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:46:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Referential Realism and Gesture Message-ID: I am not sure how relevant this article may be but it does have overlaps with many themes discussed and Sinha's version of cognitive linguistics which has an intersubjective focus putting referential realism as foundational a clear presentation of this tradition -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AUGUST 17 2015 SINHA CHRIS Grounding Mappings and Acts Of Meaning.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 78859 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150817/8e765252/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 17 20:47:19 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 20:47:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fun &Games Message-ID: I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having fun and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are not reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd how the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. Mike -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 06:39:40 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 07:39:40 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, This is a very neat and smart paper. My one concern is that it seems to slide down the dualistic side of a Kantian view of the world that presumes the very mistakes that the author is trying to sidestep (e.g., that meaning is in the head). I think there is good reason to think of discursive (perhaps semiotic) objects as real. I don't think that they are just "maps" of reality (I'm not 100% certain that this is Sinha's point since I rushed through a bit, but it seemed like where it was headed). They ARE reality (or, at least we could say that they are "real" and "objective" in Hegel's sense). That's a big leap, I know, but I find the alternative to be equally problematic. -greg On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I am not sure how relevant this article may be but it does have overlaps > with many themes discussed and Sinha's version of cognitive > linguistics which has an intersubjective focus putting referential > realism as foundational a clear presentation of this tradition > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 06:52:07 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 06:52:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55d3388f.43bc420a.60565.0995@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: "Greg Thompson" Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:41 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture Larry, This is a very neat and smart paper. My one concern is that it seems to slide down the dualistic side of a Kantian view of the world that presumes the very mistakes that the author is trying to sidestep (e.g., that meaning is in the head). I think there is good reason to think of discursive (perhaps semiotic) objects as real. I don't think that they are just "maps" of reality (I'm not 100% certain that this is Sinha's point since I rushed through a bit, but it seemed like where it was headed). They ARE reality (or, at least we could say that they are "real" and "objective" in Hegel's sense). That's a big leap, I know, but I find the alternative to be equally problematic. -greg On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I am not sure how relevant this article may be but it does have overlaps > with many themes discussed and Sinha's version of cognitive > linguistics which has an intersubjective focus putting referential > realism as foundational a clear presentation of this tradition > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 07:14:41 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 07:14:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture In-Reply-To: <55d3388f.43bc420a.60565.0995@mx.google.com> References: <55d3388f.43bc420a.60565.0995@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55d33ddb.46eb420a.6a2ab.110e@mx.google.com> Greg, My impression is that meaning is in the "act". The act is referential and the meaning arises through these multiple characteristics which develop through a socio-naturalistic path of development. Sinha's focus is the 2nd person intersubjective realm. Greg he does say that "cognitive linguistics" as a field is grappling with where "mind" is located but I think he is taking "mind" into a socio-naturalistic arena beyond Kant. I am now going to read a book he wrote "language and representation" as it has a chapter on the historical origins of our notions of semiosis and reference. Greg, there seem to be two different notions of "intersubjevtivity" 1) belonging TOGETHER 2) BELONGING together. In the first the together is primary and then we each find our way to each other and find approaches to "belong" as the consummation. This holds Kantian themes. The secong posits the belonging as primordial and as we undergo shared mutual experiences becoming "an" experience the subject matter (the primordial source of belonging) undergoes a felt sense of our be/coming together. The belonging is primordial and the togetherness is derived. BOTH approaches are named " intersubjevtive but they highlight different characteristics of the character of the concept "intersubjevtivity" -----Original Message----- From: "Lplarry" Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:52 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture From: Greg Thompson Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:41 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture Larry, This is a very neat and smart paper. My one concern is that it seems to slide down the dualistic side of a Kantian view of the world that presumes the very mistakes that the author is trying to sidestep (e.g., that meaning is in the head). I think there is good reason to think of discursive (perhaps semiotic) objects as real. I don't think that they are just "maps" of reality (I'm not 100% certain that this is Sinha's point since I rushed through a bit, but it seemed like where it was headed). They ARE reality (or, at least we could say that they are "real" and "objective" in Hegel's sense). That's a big leap, I know, but I find the alternative to be equally problematic. -greg On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > I am not sure how relevant this article may be but it does have overlaps > with many themes discussed and Sinha's version of cognitive > linguistics which has an intersubjective focus putting referential > realism as foundational a clear presentation of this tradition > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 07:45:12 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:45:12 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture In-Reply-To: <55d33ddb.46eb420a.6a2ab.110e@mx.google.com> References: <55d3388f.43bc420a.60565.0995@mx.google.com> <55d33ddb.46eb420a.6a2ab.110e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, Yes, I think that "intersubjectivity" is nice, but it has it's limits. Latour had a nice article in MCA simply titled "On Interobjectivity" that pushed a bit beyond the limits of "intersubjectivity". I've attached it (figured it was "old" enough to share - hope nobody comes after me...). -greg On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Lplarry wrote: > Greg, > My impression is that meaning is in the "act". The act is referential and > the meaning arises through these multiple characteristics which develop > through a socio-naturalistic path of development. > Sinha's focus is the 2nd person intersubjective realm. > Greg he does say that "cognitive linguistics" as a field is grappling with > where "mind" is located but I think he is taking "mind" into a > socio-naturalistic arena beyond Kant. > > I am now going to read a book he wrote "language and representation" as it > has a chapter on the historical origins of our notions of semiosis and > reference. > Greg, there seem to be two different notions of "intersubjevtivity" > 1) belonging TOGETHER > 2) BELONGING together. > In the first the together is primary and then we each find our way to each > other and find approaches to "belong" as the consummation. This holds > Kantian themes. > The secong posits the belonging as primordial and as we undergo shared > mutual experiences becoming "an" experience the subject matter (the > primordial source of belonging) undergoes a felt sense of our be/coming > together. The belonging is primordial and the togetherness is derived. > BOTH approaches are named " intersubjevtive but they highlight different > characteristics of the character of the concept "intersubjevtivity" > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Lplarry" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:52 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture > > > > From: Greg Thompson > Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:41 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture > > > Larry, > This is a very neat and smart paper. > My one concern is that it seems to slide down the dualistic side of a > Kantian view of the world that presumes the very mistakes that the author > is trying to sidestep (e.g., that meaning is in the head). > > I think there is good reason to think of discursive (perhaps semiotic) > objects as real. I don't think that they are just "maps" of reality (I'm > not 100% certain that this is Sinha's point since I rushed through a bit, > but it seemed like where it was headed). They ARE reality (or, at least we > could say that they are "real" and "objective" in Hegel's sense). > > That's a big leap, I know, but I find the alternative to be equally > problematic. > -greg > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > I am not sure how relevant this article may be but it does have overlaps > > with many themes discussed and Sinha's version of cognitive > > linguistics which has an intersubjective focus putting referential > > realism as foundational a clear presentation of this tradition > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Latour, Bruno. (1996) On Interobjectivity. Mind, Culture, and Activity. 6, 3.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1384886 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150818/49a60c19/attachment-0001.pdf From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 14:24:56 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 06:24:56 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike: In our presentation over the summer in Kangwondo, we tried to consider various forms of the "next zone of development" as diagnostic rather than pedagogical devices. That is, we tried to take seriously the idea tha the Zoped is not a "zone of proximal development" or a "zone of pedogogical development" but rather a zone of pedalogical development, a way of diagnosing what the child's next zone of development. This seems like an important thing to do; without it, the tendency to reduce the Zoped to a teaching/learning device rather than a developmental diagnostic (as Vygotsky intended it) is hard to resist. When we read Vygotsky's unfinished papers on "Child Development" (Volume Four of the Russian Collected Works and also the 2001 "Lectures on Pedology" published in Izhevsk) we get the impression that the schedule of development that Vygotsky had in mind is both too delicate and not delicate enough. It's too delicate because, for example, you have the crisis at seventeen which occurs right in the middle of a stable age (puberty) after which the child apparently simply goes on with the stable age--we can only explain this by the circumstance, peculiar to the USSR of the time, that at seventeen youth were required to decide whether they were going to leave school and work or enter a preparatory school for higher education. It's not delicate enough because, for example, the Age of Infancy overlaps with the Crisis at One by at least two months (ten months to twelve months) during which time some very important changes are taking place in the child's semantics (according to Halliday, 2002, "The Language of Early Childhood"). There's a way out. Vygotsky also says that the critical periods have a three part structure (pre-peak, peak, and post-peak) and the stable periods a two part structure (early and late). In addition, the neoformation which defines each age period emerges at the END of the age period and not the beginning. So the next zone of development not only predicts the gross changes of child development which we now simply predict using the calendar (Infancy, Crisis at One, Early Childhood, Crisis at Three, Preschool, etc.) but also the next phase within each period. It can do this by tracing the child's progress along a main line of development (we called this a "central line of development" when you, me and Andy were working on Volume Four, but I notice in the pedalogical lectures that Vygotsky prefers the term "main line of development"). This means the diagnostic next zone of development (that diagnostic Zoped) actually predicts both the next age stage (the "objective" ZPD, to use Chaiklin's terminology) and the next step within each age period (what Chaiklin calls the "subjective" one). Speech is the main line of development only in early childhood. But after early childhood the main lines of development turn out to be various forms of verbal thinking (negation at three, play in preschool, "clowning around" at seven, and conscious awareness and mastery at school age, concept development in puberty). This really makes perfect sense: development is, at least at the beginning of each period, more about differentiation than about growth. So if we apply this little insight to the problem you name--the problem of having fun, play, and games--we obtain a process of differentiation: games are a form of play (but not all play is a game), play is a form of having fun (but not all fun is play). In our Kangwando presentation we used a rather course method to differentiate having fun, play, and games: rote, role, and rule. Rote play is "having fun", or what Vygotsky calls "quasi-play", that is, sensorimotor repetition, something which never goes away from play but which transfers its functions upward to role play. Role play is the creation of an imaginary situation, but it is an imaginary situation in which the rules are imaginary and not explicitly stated and objectively shared. Only rule play--that is, formal games--represents the final form of preschool play: rote play (having fun) and role play (imaginary play) are transitional forms which do not die out but which transfer their functions to higher forms as they arise. David Kellogg On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having fun > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are not > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd how > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > Mike > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Aug 18 14:47:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:47:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David-- I was just beginning to wonder if anyone had any interest in my question about play and fun. I found a lot interesting about your note, but I fear that, perhaps because of the specific framework you are using to interpret the question, the answer does not seem to help much. I was including preschoolers in my badly formed notion of an age range of humans. I had two 7 year olds over last weekend. They were adamently NOT interested in doing any household chores, but they sure had fun shucking corn for dinner and even want to wash the car, but drought conditions forbid it. My wife and I have fun trying to finish the Times crossword puzzle, congratulating outselves when we make it to Wednesday. And I often have fun cooking snacks for kids at the afterschool center where I used to have a presumably serious minded task at hand. Not play. Not a game. But fun. It can happen, I surmise, during any part of a stable developmental phase or at the beginning, middle, or end, of a crisis (despite the negative emotional connotations of the word). Maybe to vague a wondering to be useful. Happy to discuss the topics you raise, but how about a header change? mike On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:24 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike: > > In our presentation over the summer in Kangwondo, we tried to consider > various forms of the "next zone of development" as diagnostic rather than > pedagogical devices. That is, we tried to take seriously the idea tha the > Zoped is not a "zone of proximal development" or a "zone of pedogogical > development" but rather a zone of pedalogical development, a way of > diagnosing what the child's next zone of development. This seems like an > important thing to do; without it, the tendency to reduce the Zoped to a > teaching/learning device rather than a developmental diagnostic (as > Vygotsky intended it) is hard to resist. > > When we read Vygotsky's unfinished papers on "Child Development" (Volume > Four of the Russian Collected Works and also the 2001 "Lectures on > Pedology" published in Izhevsk) we get the impression that the schedule of > development that Vygotsky had in mind is both too delicate and not delicate > enough. It's too delicate because, for example, you have the crisis at > seventeen which occurs right in the middle of a stable age (puberty) after > which the child apparently simply goes on with the stable age--we can only > explain this by the circumstance, peculiar to the USSR of the time, that at > seventeen youth were required to decide whether they were going to leave > school and work or enter a preparatory school for higher education. It's > not delicate enough because, for example, the Age of Infancy overlaps with > the Crisis at One by at least two months (ten months to twelve months) > during which time some very important changes are taking place in the > child's semantics (according to Halliday, 2002, "The Language of Early > Childhood"). > > There's a way out. Vygotsky also says that the critical periods have a > three part structure (pre-peak, peak, and post-peak) and the stable periods > a two part structure (early and late). In addition, the neoformation which > defines each age period emerges at the END of the age period and not the > beginning. So the next zone of development not only predicts the gross > changes of child development which we now simply predict using the calendar > (Infancy, Crisis at One, Early Childhood, Crisis at Three, Preschool, > etc.) but also the next phase within each period. It can do this by tracing > the child's progress along a main line of development (we called this a > "central line of development" when you, me and Andy were working on Volume > Four, but I notice in the pedalogical lectures that Vygotsky prefers the > term "main line of development"). This means the diagnostic next zone of > development (that diagnostic Zoped) actually predicts both the next age > stage (the "objective" ZPD, to use Chaiklin's terminology) and the next > step within each age period (what Chaiklin calls the "subjective" one). > > Speech is the main line of development only in early childhood. But after > early childhood the main lines of development turn out to be various forms > of verbal thinking (negation at three, play in preschool, "clowning > around" at seven, and conscious awareness and mastery at school age, > concept development in puberty). This really makes perfect sense: > development is, at least at the beginning of each period, more about > differentiation than about growth. So if we apply this little insight to > the problem you name--the problem of having fun, play, and games--we obtain > a process of differentiation: games are a form of play (but not all play is > a game), play is a form of having fun (but not all fun is play). > > In our Kangwando presentation we used a rather course method to > differentiate having fun, play, and games: rote, role, and rule. Rote play > is "having fun", or what Vygotsky calls "quasi-play", that is, sensorimotor > repetition, something which never goes away from play but which transfers > its functions upward to role play. Role play is the creation of an > imaginary situation, but it is an imaginary situation in which the rules > are imaginary and not explicitly stated and objectively shared. Only rule > play--that is, formal games--represents the final form of preschool play: > rote play (having fun) and role play (imaginary play) are transitional > forms which do not die out but which transfer their functions to higher > forms as they arise. > > David Kellogg > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having fun > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are > not > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd > how > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > Mike > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From s.davis@cqu.edu.au Tue Aug 18 16:49:38 2015 From: s.davis@cqu.edu.au (Susan Davis) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:49:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience - perezhivanie and opyt Message-ID: Hi all, Sorry to return to this thread, but it is of ongoing interest to me. I was wondering if Dewey?s book ?Art as Experience? has ever been fully translated into Russian? Is the only the title that has and has it always been translated as opyt? Is that in fact an appropriate translation of what Dewey was writing about? Or is he really writing about both perezhivanie and opty? Does it matter? Also I was wondering in Vygotsky?s work work on Imagination and Creativity where he describes the interplay of art, imagination and experience, what words are used in the Russian texts and whether opyt or perezhivanie are used where it says experience in English.. I was thinking of sections Vygotsky, L. S. (2004). Imagination and Creativity in Childhood. Journal of Russian and East European Psychology, 42(1) such as? ?In this sense imagination takes on a very important function in human behaviour and human development. It becomes the means by which a person?s experience is broadened, because he can imagine what he has not seen, can conceptualise something from another person?s narration and description of what he himself has never directly experienced. He is not limited to the narrow circle and narrow boundaries of his own experience but can venture far beyond these boundaries, assimilating with the help of his imagination someone else?s historical or social experience. In this form, imagination is a completely essential condition for almost all human mental activity. ?.. (examples) in all these cases our imagination serves our experience. Thus there is a double, mutual dependence between imagination and experience. If, in the first case, imagination is based on experience, in the second case experience itself is based on imagination? p. 17 ?We have already said that the operation of the imagination depends on experience, on needs, and the interests in which these needs are expressed.? p. 29 Any further insights or opinions much appreciated. Sue Davis. On 19/07/2015 6:32 pm, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >Nice to hear your voice, Susan, rising up from the dark >world of lurkers! > >As to translation of Dewey's works into Russian. It seems, >though I am only going on a few glimpses, that Russians have >translated "experience" in Dewey's writing as opyt. If this >is the case, then obviously Dewey will seem to Russians as >just another Empiricist and the real novelty of American >Pragmatism will escape their attention. I raised the >possibility of translating "Having An Experience" into >Russian on the Facebook page, and the only response was that >Dewey reads so well in English why translate him into >Russian. :) But in my opinion a translator would be obliged >to translate "experience" sometimes as opit and sometimes as >perezhivanie, depending on the exact point and context. >Dewey has to struggle to bend the English language into >making this distinction which is provided ready-made in the >Russian language. But I think mainly if you follow the clue >as to whether he uses the word as a count noun or as a mass >noun, you can correctly translate him into Russians, >choosing perezhivanie or opit accordingly. Dewey's critique >of the Reflex Arc is an example far from the artist's trade >where he explicitly poses the "double-barrelled" nature of >acts/experiences. > >"Having An Experience" is presented by Dewey as part of his >work on Aesthetics, and aesthetic ideas play a big part in >his explanation of this idea. But can I suggest that in Art, >perezhivanie is particularly developed and stands out in >particular sharpness from opit, and this is great help in >understanding what "an experience" is, as opposed to that >general background of thoughtless doing and passive >undergoing. But perezhivanija are not limited to the work of >the artist. The artist is obliged to recognise a perzhivanie >and works at how to evoke it in others, at least >approximately, but it figures in all our lives even if we >never get to write our autobiography, reproduce them on >stage or express them on the canvass. But we do live through >them and change ourselves and the world in the process. > >Can I ask you: what in your opinion does Dewey mean when he >talks about the aesthetic quality of perezhivanija when he >is discussing ordinary life, not the work of an artist? > >Andy >------------------------------------------------------------ >*Andy Blunden* >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >On 19/07/2015 5:54 PM, Susan Davis wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I am an xmca lurker, but am particularly interested in some of the >>matters >> raised on this thread in relation to experience, the arts perezhivanie >>and >> learning so I will venture forth! My particular background has been >>drama >> (including process and improvised forms of drama) and teacher education >> but I have been involved in many projects working with children and >>young >> people. >> >> I would like to present a number of points for consideration that >>respond >> to some of the issue raised: >> >> >> It is important to note that Dewey was making a point that the >> art-making/creative experience was somewhat different from general >> experience per se. >> >> >> In relation to art and experience, art-making becomes a mediated, >> expressive and reflective process whereby experience is crystallised and >> ideas/emotions internalised and externalised in specific expressive >>modes. >> Through art and creative processes, experience and emotion is shaped >> through expressive 'forms', with the subjects or agents projecting and >> externalising their expression of emotion and ideas. >> >> >> Through art making these emotions and ideas are not just ?experienced? >>but >> selected, shaped and communicated socially in >> some material form. ?Selection and organization of material are at >>once a >> function and test of the quality of the >> emotion experienced? (p. 72). These forms (such as art, music, theatre >> and so on) are realised through reflection-in-action which involves >> processes of selection and the relationship of qualities (and here >> Eisner?s work on the quality of qualities is also >> pertinent) ? ?Only when the constituent parts of the whole have the >>unique >> end of contributing to the consummation of a conscious experience, do >> design and shape lose superimposed character and become form? (p. 122). >> Dewey?s work draws attention to the process >> and materiality of the making, and the embodiment of emotions and >> imagination through ?form? involving these processes of selection, >> organisation, elimination and resolution: ?In short, art, in its form, >> unites the very same relation of doing and undergoing, outgoing and >> incoming energy, that makes an experience to be an experience?. (Dewey, >> 1934:50) >> >> >> Therefore when it comes to possibilities to studying perezhivanie or >> children?s experience, while you can never get inside their >> personal experience, it is possible to record their external expressions >> of experience (through video/audio etc) and also their art-making >> (drawing, dance,dramatic play, songs etc) and also engage them in >> reflection-on-action about their experience. It is also possible to >>trace >> ongoing activity and expressions to trace their appropriation of >>concepts >> and tool use and the development of ideas in their externalised >> expressions. >> >> >> In relation to experience and reflection perhaps it is worth considering >> two different notions of reflection and two different Russian terms that >> relate to experience ? perezhivanie and opyt. At a Perezhivanie forum >> convened at Monash University earlier this year Nikolai Veresov noted >>that >> in Russian the title of Dewey?s book used another word ?opyt?.Opyt >>implies >> an experience that is in the past or is like the ?accumulated body of >> experience? (see Meshcheryakov in Blunden 2010). However, it could be >> argued that what Dewey was discussing was perezhivanie and a much more >> immediate, active process, as Dewey says ?Experience ?..it signals >>active >> and alert commerce with the world?(Dewey 1934, p. 18). >> >> >> I wonder if there has been any recent analysis of the Russian >>translations >> of Dewey?s ?Art as experience? to consider whether it really is >> appropriate to translate it as opyt or whether it should be perezhivanie >> (or perhaps both). >> >> >> Likewise in art making and criticism, two different types of reflection >> are involved, as proposed by Schon ? reflection-in-action and >> reflection-on-action. These inform the immediate experience but also >>the >> ongoing possibilities for the experience to be remade, reconceived and >> inform future experience (and perhaps as Beth suggestions chains of >> ideas/events/experience). Reflection-in-action is an active reflective >> process that is part of the art-making experience, where the artist is >> actually reflecting upon what is happening and being created, and >>drawing >> on their toolkit of skills and knowledge and weighing up the qualities >>of >> such to make moment by moment decisions about what to do next. This >> experience has a unity in itself, however there is also a provisionality >> about it. Reflection-on-action may then be engaged in after the >> event/experience, as the experience is interpreted and made sense of and >> other modes of expression and communication may be involved (eg. >> Reflecting on a visual arts or music experience using verbal or written >> language). This may be an act in itself or may inform further creative >> activity and experience that may even extend upon, reinvent or >>reinterpret >> the first. >> >> >> I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts about these points. >> Kind regards >> >> Sue Davis >> >> Dr Susan Davis >> Senior Lecturer | School of Education & the Arts/Higher Education >>Division >> CQUniversity Noosa, PO Box 1128, Noosaville Qld 4566 >> P +61 (0)7 5440 7007 | M +61 (0)418 763 428 | E s.davis@cqu.edu.au >> >> >> >> >> >> On 19/07/2015 3:43 pm, "Lplarry" wrote: >> >>> Greg, Beth, >>> How do we find a way to describe (in a way that is true) what the >>> preschool children are experiencing. >>> >>> The images of the video that Greg sent on the magic of synchronized >>>hand >>> clapping is one example of "showing" or "perceiving" Can this >>>experience >>> we see in the video be described in a way that expresses the truth of >>> the way the children are having this experience. >>> can we do this type of truthful describing as observers of the >>> experience? >>> Or must we undergo the experience (with) the children prior to >>>describing >>> the experience? >>> Is synchronized hand clapping which is transformative a matter of >>> describing "subjects" and "objects" or does the truth of this matter >>>as >>> lived experience exist in the undergoing the experienc of hand >>>clapping. >>> >>> Greg, I am reading the Gendlin article on (befindlichkeit) and this >>> concept seems relevant to this theme of having an experience and the >>> truth of describing synchronized hand clapping >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Greg Thompson" >>> Sent: 2015-07-18 8:37 PM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience >>> >>> Beth, >>> "a method of perezhivanie" sounds like a brilliant and important thing >>>to >>> develop. >>> >>> I wonder if you might be able to use it to get at that sentiment that >>>you >>> described earlier where, talking about children's experience of time, >>>you >>> said "time is so condensed for young children so it is happening all >>>the >>> time". How to translate that experience to adults for whom time has >>>slowed >>> and expanded and for whom it is difficult not to impose on those poor >>> children? >>> >>> (and I love the little gems you dropped throughout - "conserve the >>>effect" >>> (and perhaps the "affect" too!) is just one of many favorites...) >>> >>> Much appreciated. >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Beth Ferholt >>>wrote: >>> >>>> This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever felt to what interests >>>>me >>>> most. It covers all the interests that brought me first to play and >>>> then >>>> to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie. Before I went to LCHC I >>>> was a >>>> preschool teacher and this is a profession that I think can be >>>> described as >>>> being, in its first part, responsible for reflecting upon the 'having >>>>an >>>> experience' that is happening all around you every day (time is so >>>> condensed for young children so it is happening all the time) so that >>>> you >>>> can support the self-creation beings who are able to "have an >>>> experience''? >>>> >>>> Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher you find that what >>>>is >>>> most important is to describe what is happening in a way that is true >>>>to >>>> the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us how to do this. If >>>> you >>>> don;t do this you find dealing with the Golem who has had the words >>>>that >>>> give it life removed from its mouth: you just have dirt, nothing even >>>> remotely related to the Golem, not even weight. >>>> >>>> I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for us those properties >>>> that >>>> will characterize the experience as a whole. What Monica named >>>> 'preschool >>>> didactics from within' is a process of working with these people in >>>> research. This sounds like 5D. >>>> >>>> Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two purposes of art criticism. >>>> One >>>> is entirely in the domain of social life, he says, guiding what art >>>> creates >>>> in its audience in useful directions. The other is to 'conserve the >>>> effect >>>> of art as art'. He says we know this is needed, because art is a >>>>unity, >>>> and without the whole criticism is not related to art -- he calls what >>>> we >>>> have left, without the unity, a wound. But criticism of art treats >>>>art >>>> as >>>> a parliamentary speech -- often -- he says. Vygtosky shows how to >>>>avoid >>>> this in the chapter on Bunin's short story. >>>> >>>> As a preschool teacher you know that art is life because if you forget >>>> this >>>> then you have unhappy children and your job is impossible, or worse. >>>> As an >>>> researcher, every time you hit something hard you can revert to the >>>> first >>>> purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the part that does not >>>> conserve >>>> the effect, without any consequences on your livelihood. If we could >>>> have >>>> a system of science that makes it impossible to leave the hardest >>>> questions >>>> to the first purpose of criticism, then we could have so many people >>>> working on these hardest questions in a meaningful way, but I do not >>>> know >>>> how to do this even in my own work. >>>> >>>> Except one way is to place the desires of the teachers and children >>>> before >>>> your own. This is sort of a method of love or empathy. Kiyo >>>>suggested >>>> The >>>> Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I think) and this is related, >>>> also >>>> Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality that the people she is >>>> studying see. >>>> >>>> Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Mike, could you elaborate on that? >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> on behalf of >>>>> mike cole >>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40 >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience >>>>> >>>>> Alfredo-- >>>>> >>>>> a "method of organization" seems close to a synonym for design. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I like very much how Greg brings in a methodological issue here with >>>> his >>>>>> mention about ethnography and his reading of "fidelity"; that the >>>> latter >>>>> is >>>>>> not about representing exactly, but about describing events in >>>> terms of >>>>>> consequences for the participants, which they display for each >>>> other in >>>>>> their actual practice. >>>>>> >>>>>> This methodological aspect makes me think that the the notion of >>>> ANALYSIS >>>>>> BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca before, is useful here. >>>> Unit >>>>>> analysis reminds us that, as units, experiences, as concrete and >>>> real >>>>>> phenomena, have some form of organization that extends in time. >>>> That is >>>>>> why, if I understood the discussion below correctly, Beth is warned >>>> not >>>>> to >>>>>> think of the unit of experience as a unit "in itself". >>>>>> >>>>>> Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the differentiation between self-action >>>> and >>>>>> transaction. In self action, things are explained by their own >>>> powers. >>>>> This >>>>>> is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have referred to as analysis by >>>>>> elements. In transaction, they say, ?deal[s] with aspects and >>>> phases of >>>>>> action, without final attribution to ?elements? or other >>>> presumptively >>>>>> detachable ?entities,? ?essences,? or ?realities,? and without >>>> isolation >>>>> of >>>>>> presumptively detachable ?relations? from such detachable >>>> ?elements??. >>>> An >>>>>> experience can be studied precisely because it is not a thing in >>>> itself: >>>>> it >>>>>> is always a moving, gesture, a "method of organization" as Dewey & >>>>> Bentley >>>>>> write. >>>>>> >>>>>> I thought this my add something to your fascinating discussion, >>>>>> Alfredo >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> on behalf >>>> of >>>>>> mike cole >>>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23 >>>>>> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience >>>>>> >>>>>> Marx: It is only in a social context that subjectivism and >>>> objectivism, >>>>>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity, cease to be >>>>>> antinomies and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The >>>> resolution >>>> of >>>>>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical >>>> means, >>>>>> only through the practical energy of man. Their resolution is not by >>>> any >>>>>> means, therefore, only a problem of knowledge, but is a real >>>> problem of >>>>>> life which philosophy was unable to solve precisely because it saw >>>> there >>>>> a >>>>>> purely theoretical problem." >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> No, no, Beth. As Dewey says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor >>>>>>> intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that >>>>>>> reflection can make within it. In discourse//about//an >>>>>>> experience, we must make use of these adjectives of >>>>>>> interpretation. In going over an experience in >>>>>>> mind//after/ /its occurrence, we may find that one >>>>>>> property rather than another was sufficiently dominant >>>>>>> so that it characterizes the experience as a whole." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Isn't this beautiful scientific prose! We make these distinction >>>> when >>>>> we >>>>>>> *reflect* on an experience. And perhaps we include the experience >>>> in >>>>> our >>>>>>> autobiography, act it out on the stage, analyse it scientifically, >>>> all >>>>> of >>>>>>> which presupposes analysis and synthesis. But it is important to >>>>>> recognise >>>>>>> that the unity is prior. It is not only a unity of emotion and >>>>> cognition >>>>>>> (for example) but also of attention and will - and any other >>>> categories >>>>>> you >>>>>>> abstract from an experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or reproducing the part that represents the whole? Like a >>>> fractal? I >>>>>>>> think it is the similarity across scales that makes an experience >>>>>>>> proleptic, or gives that 'bliss conferred at the beginning of the >>>> road >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> redemption" that Vasilyuk refers to. You have an experience on >>>>> several >>>>>>>> timescales and so a sense of deja-vu is central to having an >>>>> experience. >>>>>>>> This is what I am thinking about after reading both the paper of >>>>> Dewey's >>>>>>>> and your recent piece on perezhivanie, Andy, although I am >>>> picking >>>> up >>>>>> on a >>>>>>>> small piece of the last email in this chain -- : If something is >>>> only >>>>>>>> itself in its whole then you can't study it, is what is bothering >>>> me. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not "getting at something", Michael. Just pursuing >>>>>>>> this question you raised about Dewey's saying that the >>>>>>>> aesthetic quality of medieval buildings arises from >>>>>>>> their not being "planned" like buildings are nowadays. >>>>>>>> He goes on to say "Every work of art follows the plan >>>>>>>> of, and pattern of, a complete experience." The puzzle >>>>>>>> he is raising here is the completeness of an >>>>>>>> experience which gives it its aesthetic quality, and >>>>>>>> this cannot be created by assembling together parts in >>>>>>>> the way a modern building is planned. An experience - >>>>>>>> the kind of thing which sticks in your mind - is an >>>>>>>> original or prior unity, not a combination, and this >>>>>>>> is what gives a work of art that ineffable quality, >>>>>>>> something which can only be transmitted by reproducing >>>>>>>> that whole of an experience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm still not sure about your question. Did I set >>>>>>>> out to have that experience, that morning...no, I >>>>>>>> don't think so (it was a long time ago, but I'm >>>>>>>> pretty sure no). Could I have just treated it as >>>>>>>> an indiscriminate activity, probably, I had done >>>>>>>> so before. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But I am guessing you're getting a something here >>>>>>>> Andy? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13 >>>>>>>> = >>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> ] On Behalf Of >>>>>>>> Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:21 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> YOu said: "... But that time I had the experience >>>>>>>> with the paintings..." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I mean that was an experience. Did you set out >>>>>>>> that morning to have that experience? >>>>>>>> RE, your question: "what does he mean when he says >>>>>>>> you can't do things indiscriminately and have >>>>>>>> vital experience, but you also can't plan things?" >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well I'm not sure I understand your question >>>>>>>> Andy, but perhaps it has >>>>>>>> something to do with my grandfather's favorite >>>>>>>> saying (translated from >>>>>>>> Yiddish), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Man plans, God laughs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+mglassman= >>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman >>>>>>>> = >>>>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> ] >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:04 PM >>>>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So Michael, there was just that one occasion, >>>>>>>> in all your museum-going, when you had an >>>>>>>> experience. Was that planned? >>>>>>>> (I don't mean to say you haven't had a number >>>>>>>> of such experiences, >>>>>>>> Michael ... just some number actually) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 1:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Larry and all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think this is one of the most complex >>>>>>>> aspects of experience, what does he mean >>>>>>>> when he says you can't do things >>>>>>>> indiscriminately and have vital >>>>>>>> experience, but you also can't plan >>>>>>>> things? I have discussed (argued) about >>>>>>>> this a lot with my students. I have >>>>>>>> especially seen him raise this point in at >>>>>>>> least two of his great works, Democracy >>>>>>>> and Education and Experience and Nature - >>>>>>>> and again of course in Art as Experience >>>>>>>> (notice he is not saying how Art enters >>>>>>>> into experience but how art is experience >>>>>>>> - I have come to notice these little >>>>>>>> things more and more in his writing). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The difficulty we have, at least in the >>>>>>>> United States because of the dominance of >>>>>>>> the idea of meta-cognition, is that we too >>>>>>>> often translate what individuals are >>>>>>>> bringing in to experience to organize it >>>>>>>> as a form of meta-cognition. It is kind >>>>>>>> of possible to make that interpretation >>>>>>>> from Democracy and Education, although >>>>>>>> what I think he is doing more is arguing >>>>>>>> against misinterpretations of his work as >>>>>>>> random, child centered activities. I >>>>>>>> think he is clearer in Experience and >>>>>>>> Nature that we bring in who we are at the >>>>>>>> moment into the activity, and use who we >>>>>>>> are (I don't want to say identity) as an >>>>>>>> organizing principle for what we do. It >>>>>>>> is perhaps one of the places where Dewey >>>>>>>> and Vygotsky are close. Perhaps I can use >>>>>>>> the same Jackson Pollock example. The >>>>>>>> first few times I saw his paintings I was >>>>>>>> trying to "apprecitate" them because I was >>>>>>>> told that was the best way to experience >>>>>>>> them. Dewey says no vital experience >>>>>>>> there because my activities become stilted >>>>>>>> and artificia >>>>>>>> l. Sometimes I went through the >>>>>>>> museum and just looked at pictures, one to >>>>>>>> the other. No vital experience there, >>>>>>>> just random threads. But that time I had >>>>>>>> the experience with the paintings I was >>>>>>>> allowing who I was, what had been built up >>>>>>>> in the trajectory of my life to enter into >>>>>>>> my experience with the painting, making it >>>>>>>> a vital experience. I think Dewey makes >>>>>>>> the argument in Experience and Nature that >>>>>>>> it is not just the experience the moment >>>>>>>> before, but the experiences leading to >>>>>>>> that experience, the context of my life, >>>>>>>> of my parent's life, of a long line of >>>>>>>> historical experiences. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, my take. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu> >>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus >>>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & >>>> Storch, >>>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus >>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & >>>>>Storch, >>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008) >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default[3].xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: default[3].xml Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150818/e88ba52a/attachment.rdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Tue Aug 18 17:09:08 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:09:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience - perezhivanie and opyt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great topic to bring around again, Susan. Your questions about russian to english and vice versa vis a vis perezhanie/opyit and experience. I can tell you without looking again that the term perezhivanie is translated in many ways by the translator such that the English reader has now idea of the shades of meaning involved. The difficulties have been so great that we have had to warning flags up to authors. Andy Blunden's article on Academia provide a good start on the tasks involved. For example, people seem to believe, perhaps because of the examples given the most prominence, that perezhivanie only applies when there are strong NEGATIVE emotions to "work through." But there can be positive perezhivanie as well it appears. And perezhivanie of the future, which ought to give Dewey some pause. Lets see what our Russian friends can tell us. mike On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Susan Davis wrote: > Hi all, > > Sorry to return to this thread, but it is of ongoing interest to me. I > was wondering if Dewey?s book ?Art as Experience? has ever been fully > translated into Russian? Is the only the title that has and has it always > been translated as opyt? Is that in fact an appropriate translation of > what Dewey was writing about? Or is he really writing about both > perezhivanie and opty? Does it matter? > > Also I was wondering in Vygotsky?s work work on Imagination and Creativity > where he describes the interplay of art, imagination and experience, what > words are used in the Russian texts and whether opyt or perezhivanie are > used where it says experience in English.. I was thinking of sections > Vygotsky, L. S. (2004). Imagination and Creativity in Childhood. Journal > of Russian and East European Psychology, 42(1) such as? > > > ?In this sense imagination takes on a very important function in human > behaviour and human development. It becomes the means by which a person?s > experience is broadened, because he can imagine what he has not seen, can > conceptualise something from another person?s narration and description of > what he himself has never directly experienced. He is not limited to the > narrow circle and narrow boundaries of his own experience but can venture > far beyond these boundaries, assimilating with the help of his imagination > someone else?s historical or social experience. In this form, imagination > is a completely essential condition for almost all human mental > activity. ?.. (examples) in all these cases our imagination serves our > experience. Thus there is a double, mutual dependence between imagination > and experience. If, in the first case, imagination is based on experience, > in the second case experience itself is based on imagination? p. 17 > > > ?We have already said that the operation of the imagination depends on > experience, on needs, and the interests in which these needs are > expressed.? p. 29 > > > Any further insights or opinions much appreciated. > > Sue Davis. > > > > On 19/07/2015 6:32 pm, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > >Nice to hear your voice, Susan, rising up from the dark > >world of lurkers! > > > >As to translation of Dewey's works into Russian. It seems, > >though I am only going on a few glimpses, that Russians have > >translated "experience" in Dewey's writing as opyt. If this > >is the case, then obviously Dewey will seem to Russians as > >just another Empiricist and the real novelty of American > >Pragmatism will escape their attention. I raised the > >possibility of translating "Having An Experience" into > >Russian on the Facebook page, and the only response was that > >Dewey reads so well in English why translate him into > >Russian. :) But in my opinion a translator would be obliged > >to translate "experience" sometimes as opit and sometimes as > >perezhivanie, depending on the exact point and context. > >Dewey has to struggle to bend the English language into > >making this distinction which is provided ready-made in the > >Russian language. But I think mainly if you follow the clue > >as to whether he uses the word as a count noun or as a mass > >noun, you can correctly translate him into Russians, > >choosing perezhivanie or opit accordingly. Dewey's critique > >of the Reflex Arc is an example far from the artist's trade > >where he explicitly poses the "double-barrelled" nature of > >acts/experiences. > > > >"Having An Experience" is presented by Dewey as part of his > >work on Aesthetics, and aesthetic ideas play a big part in > >his explanation of this idea. But can I suggest that in Art, > >perezhivanie is particularly developed and stands out in > >particular sharpness from opit, and this is great help in > >understanding what "an experience" is, as opposed to that > >general background of thoughtless doing and passive > >undergoing. But perezhivanija are not limited to the work of > >the artist. The artist is obliged to recognise a perzhivanie > >and works at how to evoke it in others, at least > >approximately, but it figures in all our lives even if we > >never get to write our autobiography, reproduce them on > >stage or express them on the canvass. But we do live through > >them and change ourselves and the world in the process. > > > >Can I ask you: what in your opinion does Dewey mean when he > >talks about the aesthetic quality of perezhivanija when he > >is discussing ordinary life, not the work of an artist? > > > >Andy > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >*Andy Blunden* > >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >On 19/07/2015 5:54 PM, Susan Davis wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I am an xmca lurker, but am particularly interested in some of the > >>matters > >> raised on this thread in relation to experience, the arts perezhivanie > >>and > >> learning so I will venture forth! My particular background has been > >>drama > >> (including process and improvised forms of drama) and teacher education > >> but I have been involved in many projects working with children and > >>young > >> people. > >> > >> I would like to present a number of points for consideration that > >>respond > >> to some of the issue raised: > >> > >> > >> It is important to note that Dewey was making a point that the > >> art-making/creative experience was somewhat different from general > >> experience per se. > >> > >> > >> In relation to art and experience, art-making becomes a mediated, > >> expressive and reflective process whereby experience is crystallised and > >> ideas/emotions internalised and externalised in specific expressive > >>modes. > >> Through art and creative processes, experience and emotion is shaped > >> through expressive 'forms', with the subjects or agents projecting and > >> externalising their expression of emotion and ideas. > >> > >> > >> Through art making these emotions and ideas are not just ?experienced? > >>but > >> selected, shaped and communicated socially in > >> some material form. ?Selection and organization of material are at > >>once a > >> function and test of the quality of the > >> emotion experienced? (p. 72). These forms (such as art, music, theatre > >> and so on) are realised through reflection-in-action which involves > >> processes of selection and the relationship of qualities (and here > >> Eisner?s work on the quality of qualities is also > >> pertinent) ? ?Only when the constituent parts of the whole have the > >>unique > >> end of contributing to the consummation of a conscious experience, do > >> design and shape lose superimposed character and become form? (p. 122). > >> Dewey?s work draws attention to the process > >> and materiality of the making, and the embodiment of emotions and > >> imagination through ?form? involving these processes of selection, > >> organisation, elimination and resolution: ?In short, art, in its form, > >> unites the very same relation of doing and undergoing, outgoing and > >> incoming energy, that makes an experience to be an experience?. (Dewey, > >> 1934:50) > >> > >> > >> Therefore when it comes to possibilities to studying perezhivanie or > >> children?s experience, while you can never get inside their > >> personal experience, it is possible to record their external expressions > >> of experience (through video/audio etc) and also their art-making > >> (drawing, dance,dramatic play, songs etc) and also engage them in > >> reflection-on-action about their experience. It is also possible to > >>trace > >> ongoing activity and expressions to trace their appropriation of > >>concepts > >> and tool use and the development of ideas in their externalised > >> expressions. > >> > >> > >> In relation to experience and reflection perhaps it is worth considering > >> two different notions of reflection and two different Russian terms that > >> relate to experience ? perezhivanie and opyt. At a Perezhivanie forum > >> convened at Monash University earlier this year Nikolai Veresov noted > >>that > >> in Russian the title of Dewey?s book used another word ?opyt?.Opyt > >>implies > >> an experience that is in the past or is like the ?accumulated body of > >> experience? (see Meshcheryakov in Blunden 2010). However, it could be > >> argued that what Dewey was discussing was perezhivanie and a much more > >> immediate, active process, as Dewey says ?Experience ?..it signals > >>active > >> and alert commerce with the world?(Dewey 1934, p. 18). > >> > >> > >> I wonder if there has been any recent analysis of the Russian > >>translations > >> of Dewey?s ?Art as experience? to consider whether it really is > >> appropriate to translate it as opyt or whether it should be perezhivanie > >> (or perhaps both). > >> > >> > >> Likewise in art making and criticism, two different types of reflection > >> are involved, as proposed by Schon ? reflection-in-action and > >> reflection-on-action. These inform the immediate experience but also > >>the > >> ongoing possibilities for the experience to be remade, reconceived and > >> inform future experience (and perhaps as Beth suggestions chains of > >> ideas/events/experience). Reflection-in-action is an active reflective > >> process that is part of the art-making experience, where the artist is > >> actually reflecting upon what is happening and being created, and > >>drawing > >> on their toolkit of skills and knowledge and weighing up the qualities > >>of > >> such to make moment by moment decisions about what to do next. This > >> experience has a unity in itself, however there is also a provisionality > >> about it. Reflection-on-action may then be engaged in after the > >> event/experience, as the experience is interpreted and made sense of and > >> other modes of expression and communication may be involved (eg. > >> Reflecting on a visual arts or music experience using verbal or written > >> language). This may be an act in itself or may inform further creative > >> activity and experience that may even extend upon, reinvent or > >>reinterpret > >> the first. > >> > >> > >> I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts about these points. > >> Kind regards > >> > >> Sue Davis > >> > >> Dr Susan Davis > >> Senior Lecturer | School of Education & the Arts/Higher Education > >>Division > >> CQUniversity Noosa, PO Box 1128, Noosaville Qld 4566 > >> P +61 (0)7 5440 7007 | M +61 (0)418 763 428 | E s.davis@cqu.edu.au > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 19/07/2015 3:43 pm, "Lplarry" wrote: > >> > >>> Greg, Beth, > >>> How do we find a way to describe (in a way that is true) what the > >>> preschool children are experiencing. > >>> > >>> The images of the video that Greg sent on the magic of synchronized > >>>hand > >>> clapping is one example of "showing" or "perceiving" Can this > >>>experience > >>> we see in the video be described in a way that expresses the truth of > >>> the way the children are having this experience. > >>> can we do this type of truthful describing as observers of the > >>> experience? > >>> Or must we undergo the experience (with) the children prior to > >>>describing > >>> the experience? > >>> Is synchronized hand clapping which is transformative a matter of > >>> describing "subjects" and "objects" or does the truth of this matter > >>>as > >>> lived experience exist in the undergoing the experienc of hand > >>>clapping. > >>> > >>> Greg, I am reading the Gendlin article on (befindlichkeit) and this > >>> concept seems relevant to this theme of having an experience and the > >>> truth of describing synchronized hand clapping > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: "Greg Thompson" > >>> Sent: 2015-07-18 8:37 PM > >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience > >>> > >>> Beth, > >>> "a method of perezhivanie" sounds like a brilliant and important thing > >>>to > >>> develop. > >>> > >>> I wonder if you might be able to use it to get at that sentiment that > >>>you > >>> described earlier where, talking about children's experience of time, > >>>you > >>> said "time is so condensed for young children so it is happening all > >>>the > >>> time". How to translate that experience to adults for whom time has > >>>slowed > >>> and expanded and for whom it is difficult not to impose on those poor > >>> children? > >>> > >>> (and I love the little gems you dropped throughout - "conserve the > >>>effect" > >>> (and perhaps the "affect" too!) is just one of many favorites...) > >>> > >>> Much appreciated. > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Beth Ferholt > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>>> This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever felt to what interests > >>>>me > >>>> most. It covers all the interests that brought me first to play and > >>>> then > >>>> to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie. Before I went to LCHC I > >>>> was a > >>>> preschool teacher and this is a profession that I think can be > >>>> described as > >>>> being, in its first part, responsible for reflecting upon the 'having > >>>>an > >>>> experience' that is happening all around you every day (time is so > >>>> condensed for young children so it is happening all the time) so that > >>>> you > >>>> can support the self-creation beings who are able to "have an > >>>> experience''? > >>>> > >>>> Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher you find that what > >>>>is > >>>> most important is to describe what is happening in a way that is true > >>>>to > >>>> the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us how to do this. If > >>>> you > >>>> don;t do this you find dealing with the Golem who has had the words > >>>>that > >>>> give it life removed from its mouth: you just have dirt, nothing even > >>>> remotely related to the Golem, not even weight. > >>>> > >>>> I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for us those properties > >>>> that > >>>> will characterize the experience as a whole. What Monica named > >>>> 'preschool > >>>> didactics from within' is a process of working with these people in > >>>> research. This sounds like 5D. > >>>> > >>>> Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two purposes of art criticism. > >>>> One > >>>> is entirely in the domain of social life, he says, guiding what art > >>>> creates > >>>> in its audience in useful directions. The other is to 'conserve the > >>>> effect > >>>> of art as art'. He says we know this is needed, because art is a > >>>>unity, > >>>> and without the whole criticism is not related to art -- he calls what > >>>> we > >>>> have left, without the unity, a wound. But criticism of art treats > >>>>art > >>>> as > >>>> a parliamentary speech -- often -- he says. Vygtosky shows how to > >>>>avoid > >>>> this in the chapter on Bunin's short story. > >>>> > >>>> As a preschool teacher you know that art is life because if you forget > >>>> this > >>>> then you have unhappy children and your job is impossible, or worse. > >>>> As an > >>>> researcher, every time you hit something hard you can revert to the > >>>> first > >>>> purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the part that does not > >>>> conserve > >>>> the effect, without any consequences on your livelihood. If we could > >>>> have > >>>> a system of science that makes it impossible to leave the hardest > >>>> questions > >>>> to the first purpose of criticism, then we could have so many people > >>>> working on these hardest questions in a meaningful way, but I do not > >>>> know > >>>> how to do this even in my own work. > >>>> > >>>> Except one way is to place the desires of the teachers and children > >>>> before > >>>> your own. This is sort of a method of love or empathy. Kiyo > >>>>suggested > >>>> The > >>>> Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I think) and this is related, > >>>> also > >>>> Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality that the people she is > >>>> studying see. > >>>> > >>>> Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie. > >>>> > >>>> Beth > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Mike, could you elaborate on that? > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>> on behalf > of > >>>>> mike cole > >>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40 > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience > >>>>> > >>>>> Alfredo-- > >>>>> > >>>>> a "method of organization" seems close to a synonym for design. > >>>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil > >>>> >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I like very much how Greg brings in a methodological issue here with > >>>> his > >>>>>> mention about ethnography and his reading of "fidelity"; that the > >>>> latter > >>>>> is > >>>>>> not about representing exactly, but about describing events in > >>>> terms of > >>>>>> consequences for the participants, which they display for each > >>>> other in > >>>>>> their actual practice. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This methodological aspect makes me think that the the notion of > >>>> ANALYSIS > >>>>>> BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca before, is useful here. > >>>> Unit > >>>>>> analysis reminds us that, as units, experiences, as concrete and > >>>> real > >>>>>> phenomena, have some form of organization that extends in time. > >>>> That is > >>>>>> why, if I understood the discussion below correctly, Beth is warned > >>>> not > >>>>> to > >>>>>> think of the unit of experience as a unit "in itself". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the differentiation between self-action > >>>> and > >>>>>> transaction. In self action, things are explained by their own > >>>> powers. > >>>>> This > >>>>>> is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have referred to as analysis by > >>>>>> elements. In transaction, they say, ?deal[s] with aspects and > >>>> phases of > >>>>>> action, without final attribution to ?elements? or other > >>>> presumptively > >>>>>> detachable ?entities,? ?essences,? or ?realities,? and without > >>>> isolation > >>>>> of > >>>>>> presumptively detachable ?relations? from such detachable > >>>> ?elements??. > >>>> An > >>>>>> experience can be studied precisely because it is not a thing in > >>>> itself: > >>>>> it > >>>>>> is always a moving, gesture, a "method of organization" as Dewey & > >>>>> Bentley > >>>>>> write. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I thought this my add something to your fascinating discussion, > >>>>>> Alfredo > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> on behalf > >>>> of > >>>>>> mike cole > >>>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23 > >>>>>> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Marx: It is only in a social context that subjectivism and > >>>> objectivism, > >>>>>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity, cease to be > >>>>>> antinomies and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The > >>>> resolution > >>>> of > >>>>>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical > >>>> means, > >>>>>> only through the practical energy of man. Their resolution is not by > >>>> any > >>>>>> means, therefore, only a problem of knowledge, but is a real > >>>> problem of > >>>>>> life which philosophy was unable to solve precisely because it saw > >>>> there > >>>>> a > >>>>>> purely theoretical problem." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy Blunden > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> No, no, Beth. As Dewey says: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor > >>>>>>> intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that > >>>>>>> reflection can make within it. In discourse//about//an > >>>>>>> experience, we must make use of these adjectives of > >>>>>>> interpretation. In going over an experience in > >>>>>>> mind//after/ /its occurrence, we may find that one > >>>>>>> property rather than another was sufficiently dominant > >>>>>>> so that it characterizes the experience as a whole." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Isn't this beautiful scientific prose! We make these distinction > >>>> when > >>>>> we > >>>>>>> *reflect* on an experience. And perhaps we include the experience > >>>> in > >>>>> our > >>>>>>> autobiography, act it out on the stage, analyse it scientifically, > >>>> all > >>>>> of > >>>>>>> which presupposes analysis and synthesis. But it is important to > >>>>>> recognise > >>>>>>> that the unity is prior. It is not only a unity of emotion and > >>>>> cognition > >>>>>>> (for example) but also of attention and will - and any other > >>>> categories > >>>>>> you > >>>>>>> abstract from an experience. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Or reproducing the part that represents the whole? Like a > >>>> fractal? I > >>>>>>>> think it is the similarity across scales that makes an experience > >>>>>>>> proleptic, or gives that 'bliss conferred at the beginning of the > >>>> road > >>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> redemption" that Vasilyuk refers to. You have an experience on > >>>>> several > >>>>>>>> timescales and so a sense of deja-vu is central to having an > >>>>> experience. > >>>>>>>> This is what I am thinking about after reading both the paper of > >>>>> Dewey's > >>>>>>>> and your recent piece on perezhivanie, Andy, although I am > >>>> picking > >>>> up > >>>>>> on a > >>>>>>>> small piece of the last email in this chain -- : If something is > >>>> only > >>>>>>>> itself in its whole then you can't study it, is what is bothering > >>>> me. > >>>>>> Beth > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Not "getting at something", Michael. Just pursuing > >>>>>>>> this question you raised about Dewey's saying that the > >>>>>>>> aesthetic quality of medieval buildings arises from > >>>>>>>> their not being "planned" like buildings are nowadays. > >>>>>>>> He goes on to say "Every work of art follows the plan > >>>>>>>> of, and pattern of, a complete experience." The puzzle > >>>>>>>> he is raising here is the completeness of an > >>>>>>>> experience which gives it its aesthetic quality, and > >>>>>>>> this cannot be created by assembling together parts in > >>>>>>>> the way a modern building is planned. An experience - > >>>>>>>> the kind of thing which sticks in your mind - is an > >>>>>>>> original or prior unity, not a combination, and this > >>>>>>>> is what gives a work of art that ineffable quality, > >>>>>>>> something which can only be transmitted by reproducing > >>>>>>>> that whole of an experience. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'm still not sure about your question. Did I set > >>>>>>>> out to have that experience, that morning...no, I > >>>>>>>> don't think so (it was a long time ago, but I'm > >>>>>>>> pretty sure no). Could I have just treated it as > >>>>>>>> an indiscriminate activity, probably, I had done > >>>>>>>> so before. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But I am guessing you're getting a something here > >>>>>>>> Andy? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Michael > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: > >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> >>>>>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13 > >>>>>>>> = > >>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>> ] On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>> Andy Blunden > >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:21 PM > >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> YOu said: "... But that time I had the experience > >>>>>>>> with the paintings..." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I mean that was an experience. Did you set out > >>>>>>>> that morning to have that experience? > >>>>>>>> RE, your question: "what does he mean when he says > >>>>>>>> you can't do things indiscriminately and have > >>>>>>>> vital experience, but you also can't plan things?" > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Well I'm not sure I understand your question > >>>>>>>> Andy, but perhaps it has > >>>>>>>> something to do with my grandfather's favorite > >>>>>>>> saying (translated from > >>>>>>>> Yiddish), > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Man plans, God laughs. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Michael > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: > >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+mglassman= > >>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman > >>>>>>>> = > >>>>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>> ] > >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:04 PM > >>>>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So Michael, there was just that one occasion, > >>>>>>>> in all your museum-going, when you had an > >>>>>>>> experience. Was that planned? > >>>>>>>> (I don't mean to say you haven't had a number > >>>>>>>> of such experiences, > >>>>>>>> Michael ... just some number actually) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 17/07/2015 1:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Larry and all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think this is one of the most complex > >>>>>>>> aspects of experience, what does he mean > >>>>>>>> when he says you can't do things > >>>>>>>> indiscriminately and have vital > >>>>>>>> experience, but you also can't plan > >>>>>>>> things? I have discussed (argued) about > >>>>>>>> this a lot with my students. I have > >>>>>>>> especially seen him raise this point in at > >>>>>>>> least two of his great works, Democracy > >>>>>>>> and Education and Experience and Nature - > >>>>>>>> and again of course in Art as Experience > >>>>>>>> (notice he is not saying how Art enters > >>>>>>>> into experience but how art is experience > >>>>>>>> - I have come to notice these little > >>>>>>>> things more and more in his writing). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The difficulty we have, at least in the > >>>>>>>> United States because of the dominance of > >>>>>>>> the idea of meta-cognition, is that we too > >>>>>>>> often translate what individuals are > >>>>>>>> bringing in to experience to organize it > >>>>>>>> as a form of meta-cognition. It is kind > >>>>>>>> of possible to make that interpretation > >>>>>>>> from Democracy and Education, although > >>>>>>>> what I think he is doing more is arguing > >>>>>>>> against misinterpretations of his work as > >>>>>>>> random, child centered activities. I > >>>>>>>> think he is clearer in Experience and > >>>>>>>> Nature that we bring in who we are at the > >>>>>>>> moment into the activity, and use who we > >>>>>>>> are (I don't want to say identity) as an > >>>>>>>> organizing principle for what we do. It > >>>>>>>> is perhaps one of the places where Dewey > >>>>>>>> and Vygotsky are close. Perhaps I can use > >>>>>>>> the same Jackson Pollock example. The > >>>>>>>> first few times I saw his paintings I was > >>>>>>>> trying to "apprecitate" them because I was > >>>>>>>> told that was the best way to experience > >>>>>>>> them. Dewey says no vital experience > >>>>>>>> there because my activities become stilted > >>>>>>>> and artificia > >>>>>>>> l. Sometimes I went through the > >>>>>>>> museum and just looked at pictures, one to > >>>>>>>> the other. No vital experience there, > >>>>>>>> just random threads. But that time I had > >>>>>>>> the experience with the paintings I was > >>>>>>>> allowing who I was, what had been built up > >>>>>>>> in the trajectory of my life to enter into > >>>>>>>> my experience with the painting, making it > >>>>>>>> a vital experience. I think Dewey makes > >>>>>>>> the argument in Experience and Nature that > >>>>>>>> it is not just the experience the moment > >>>>>>>> before, but the experiences leading to > >>>>>>>> that experience, the context of my life, > >>>>>>>> of my parent's life, of a long line of > >>>>>>>> historical experiences. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Anyway, my take. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Michael > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt > >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > >>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue > >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu> > >>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > >>>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & > >>>> Storch, > >>>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus > >>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & > >>>>>Storch, > >>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Beth Ferholt > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education > >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue > >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >>>> > >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 18 22:34:47 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:34:47 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I think David was just having a little fun with your post. But seriously (i.e., no fun ;-( ), I'm wondering a bit about what "fun" is? How do you define it? Are you defining it Justice Potter Stewart--pornography style? (Okay, now I'm having fun!). So what is it? And, more importantly, are we having fun (yet)? -greg On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi David-- > > I was just beginning to wonder if anyone had any interest in my question > about play and fun. > > I found a lot interesting about your note, but I fear that, perhaps because > of the specific framework you are using to interpret the question, the > answer does not seem to help much. I was including preschoolers in my badly > formed notion of an age range of humans. > > I had two 7 year olds over last weekend. They were adamently NOT interested > in doing any household chores, but they sure had fun shucking corn for > dinner and even want to wash the car, but drought conditions forbid > it. My wife and I have fun trying to finish the Times crossword puzzle, > congratulating outselves when we make it to Wednesday. And I often have fun > cooking snacks for kids at the afterschool center where I used to have a > presumably serious minded task at hand. Not play. Not a game. But fun. > > It can happen, I surmise, during any part of a stable developmental phase > or at the beginning, middle, or end, of a crisis (despite the negative > emotional connotations of the word). > > Maybe to vague a wondering to be useful. > Happy to discuss the topics you raise, but how about a header change? > > mike > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:24 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Mike: > > > > In our presentation over the summer in Kangwondo, we tried to consider > > various forms of the "next zone of development" as diagnostic rather than > > pedagogical devices. That is, we tried to take seriously the idea tha the > > Zoped is not a "zone of proximal development" or a "zone of pedogogical > > development" but rather a zone of pedalogical development, a way of > > diagnosing what the child's next zone of development. This seems like an > > important thing to do; without it, the tendency to reduce the Zoped to a > > teaching/learning device rather than a developmental diagnostic (as > > Vygotsky intended it) is hard to resist. > > > > When we read Vygotsky's unfinished papers on "Child Development" (Volume > > Four of the Russian Collected Works and also the 2001 "Lectures on > > Pedology" published in Izhevsk) we get the impression that the schedule > of > > development that Vygotsky had in mind is both too delicate and not > delicate > > enough. It's too delicate because, for example, you have the crisis at > > seventeen which occurs right in the middle of a stable age (puberty) > after > > which the child apparently simply goes on with the stable age--we can > only > > explain this by the circumstance, peculiar to the USSR of the time, that > at > > seventeen youth were required to decide whether they were going to leave > > school and work or enter a preparatory school for higher education. It's > > not delicate enough because, for example, the Age of Infancy overlaps > with > > the Crisis at One by at least two months (ten months to twelve months) > > during which time some very important changes are taking place in the > > child's semantics (according to Halliday, 2002, "The Language of Early > > Childhood"). > > > > There's a way out. Vygotsky also says that the critical periods have a > > three part structure (pre-peak, peak, and post-peak) and the stable > periods > > a two part structure (early and late). In addition, the neoformation > which > > defines each age period emerges at the END of the age period and not the > > beginning. So the next zone of development not only predicts the gross > > changes of child development which we now simply predict using the > calendar > > (Infancy, Crisis at One, Early Childhood, Crisis at Three, Preschool, > > etc.) but also the next phase within each period. It can do this by > tracing > > the child's progress along a main line of development (we called this a > > "central line of development" when you, me and Andy were working on > Volume > > Four, but I notice in the pedalogical lectures that Vygotsky prefers the > > term "main line of development"). This means the diagnostic next zone of > > development (that diagnostic Zoped) actually predicts both the next age > > stage (the "objective" ZPD, to use Chaiklin's terminology) and the next > > step within each age period (what Chaiklin calls the "subjective" one). > > > > Speech is the main line of development only in early childhood. But after > > early childhood the main lines of development turn out to be various > forms > > of verbal thinking (negation at three, play in preschool, "clowning > > around" at seven, and conscious awareness and mastery at school age, > > concept development in puberty). This really makes perfect sense: > > development is, at least at the beginning of each period, more about > > differentiation than about growth. So if we apply this little insight to > > the problem you name--the problem of having fun, play, and games--we > obtain > > a process of differentiation: games are a form of play (but not all play > is > > a game), play is a form of having fun (but not all fun is play). > > > > In our Kangwando presentation we used a rather course method to > > differentiate having fun, play, and games: rote, role, and rule. Rote > play > > is "having fun", or what Vygotsky calls "quasi-play", that is, > sensorimotor > > repetition, something which never goes away from play but which > transfers > > its functions upward to role play. Role play is the creation of an > > imaginary situation, but it is an imaginary situation in which the rules > > are imaginary and not explicitly stated and objectively shared. Only rule > > play--that is, formal games--represents the final form of preschool play: > > rote play (having fun) and role play (imaginary play) are transitional > > forms which do not die out but which transfer their functions to higher > > forms as they arise. > > > > David Kellogg > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having > fun > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are > > not > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd > > how > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Wed Aug 19 03:08:14 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:08:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: JoLLE Announcements In-Reply-To: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20150819013819@mail74.atl11.rsgsv.net> References: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20150819013819@mail74.atl11.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: What's new with JoLLE@UGA? View this email in your browser [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/image001.png] [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/4e8dfd3c-5d87-4d50-8b65-0be1ea2a1b56.jpg] Scholars Speak Out sj Miller is Associate Professor of Literacy at the University of Colorado Boulder, as well as co-editor of English Education and co-editor of the book series Social Justice Across Contexts in Education. Drawing on the Queer Literacy Framework, this SSO is a blend of chapters from sj Miller?s (forthcoming) Teaching, Affirming, and Recognizing Trans and Gender Creative Youth: A Queer Literacy Framework. You can read the full Scholars Speak Out feature here. JoLLE@UGA 2016 Winter Conference [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/6c84bb33-3b40-4ffb-b76d-765229449b1a.png] Don't forget to submit your proposals to the JoLLE@UGA 2016 Winter Conference, themed Lived Words and Worlds: Community Engaged Literacies. Submissions will be accepted until October 4th, 2015 and the conference will take place in Athens, GA on January 30th & 31st, 2016. Visit the conference webpage for more information regarding the theme, keynote speaker, and proposal submission guidelines. [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/f5583911-8583-4ebc-9bda-fab34dd4a0a1.jpg] Fall Issue Deadline The deadline for unthemed manuscript submissions that will be considered for the JoLLE Fall 2015 issue is August 31, 2015 at 11:59pm EST. Please submit your papers to jollesubmissions@uga.edu. For more information, please click here. [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/f38fd23d-0654-4eae-a9fc-bf31bf4ddab9.png] Call for JoLLE Reviewers! Do you love reading JoLLE? Consider serving as a manuscript reviewer! JoLLE accepts a variety of manuscripts from empirical research reports to field-based practitioner articles. If you are interested in reviewing or would just like more information about the review process email the Managing Editor, Stephanie Anne Shelton, at jollesubmissions@uga.edu. Copyright ? 2015 The University of Georgia, All rights reserved. The Journal of Language & Literacy Education is a peer-reviewed, open access journal based in the the Department of Language & Literacy Education in The College of Education at The University of Georgia. Our mailing address is: The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30606 Add us to your address book unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] From rolfsteier@gmail.com Wed Aug 19 03:54:36 2015 From: rolfsteier@gmail.com (Rolf Steier) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:54:36 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the distinction between play and fun is a really difficult one to pin down, but one that I am also interested in. Bateson presents play as a kind of metacommunicative frame for an activity. ( I may be mis-remembering, but I believe ?play? is actually the concept he uses to illustrate his perspective on framing). This view seems to treat play in opposition to reality. In your example - shucking corn could perhaps be viewed as ?play? if the object of the activity were something other than simply shucking corn (a competition, an act of pretend, etc). Fun, to me, seems to be more about one?s engagement with an activity and doesn?t necessarily depend on the activity?s status as ?play? or ?not play?. If play involves the meta-structure of an activity, then maybe ?fun? is more associated with emotion, motivation and engagement. Play and fun are often thrown around in museum contexts as ideals for engaging young visitors, but I?m not aware of any work to conceptualize or distinguish them. If anyone has some suggested readings, i would definitely be interested. Fun question! rolf On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > I think David was just having a little fun with your post. > > But seriously (i.e., no fun ;-( ), I'm wondering a bit about what "fun" is? > How do you define it? Are you defining it Justice Potter > Stewart--pornography style? (Okay, now I'm having fun!). > > So what is it? > > And, more importantly, are we having fun (yet)? > > -greg > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi David-- > > > > I was just beginning to wonder if anyone had any interest in my question > > about play and fun. > > > > I found a lot interesting about your note, but I fear that, perhaps > because > > of the specific framework you are using to interpret the question, the > > answer does not seem to help much. I was including preschoolers in my > badly > > formed notion of an age range of humans. > > > > I had two 7 year olds over last weekend. They were adamently NOT > interested > > in doing any household chores, but they sure had fun shucking corn for > > dinner and even want to wash the car, but drought conditions forbid > > it. My wife and I have fun trying to finish the Times crossword puzzle, > > congratulating outselves when we make it to Wednesday. And I often have > fun > > cooking snacks for kids at the afterschool center where I used to have a > > presumably serious minded task at hand. Not play. Not a game. But fun. > > > > It can happen, I surmise, during any part of a stable developmental phase > > or at the beginning, middle, or end, of a crisis (despite the negative > > emotional connotations of the word). > > > > Maybe to vague a wondering to be useful. > > Happy to discuss the topics you raise, but how about a header change? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:24 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > > Mike: > > > > > > In our presentation over the summer in Kangwondo, we tried to consider > > > various forms of the "next zone of development" as diagnostic rather > than > > > pedagogical devices. That is, we tried to take seriously the idea tha > the > > > Zoped is not a "zone of proximal development" or a "zone of pedogogical > > > development" but rather a zone of pedalogical development, a way of > > > diagnosing what the child's next zone of development. This seems like > an > > > important thing to do; without it, the tendency to reduce the Zoped to > a > > > teaching/learning device rather than a developmental diagnostic (as > > > Vygotsky intended it) is hard to resist. > > > > > > When we read Vygotsky's unfinished papers on "Child Development" > (Volume > > > Four of the Russian Collected Works and also the 2001 "Lectures on > > > Pedology" published in Izhevsk) we get the impression that the schedule > > of > > > development that Vygotsky had in mind is both too delicate and not > > delicate > > > enough. It's too delicate because, for example, you have the crisis at > > > seventeen which occurs right in the middle of a stable age (puberty) > > after > > > which the child apparently simply goes on with the stable age--we can > > only > > > explain this by the circumstance, peculiar to the USSR of the time, > that > > at > > > seventeen youth were required to decide whether they were going to > leave > > > school and work or enter a preparatory school for higher education. > It's > > > not delicate enough because, for example, the Age of Infancy overlaps > > with > > > the Crisis at One by at least two months (ten months to twelve months) > > > during which time some very important changes are taking place in the > > > child's semantics (according to Halliday, 2002, "The Language of Early > > > Childhood"). > > > > > > There's a way out. Vygotsky also says that the critical periods have a > > > three part structure (pre-peak, peak, and post-peak) and the stable > > periods > > > a two part structure (early and late). In addition, the neoformation > > which > > > defines each age period emerges at the END of the age period and not > the > > > beginning. So the next zone of development not only predicts the gross > > > changes of child development which we now simply predict using the > > calendar > > > (Infancy, Crisis at One, Early Childhood, Crisis at Three, Preschool, > > > etc.) but also the next phase within each period. It can do this by > > tracing > > > the child's progress along a main line of development (we called this a > > > "central line of development" when you, me and Andy were working on > > Volume > > > Four, but I notice in the pedalogical lectures that Vygotsky prefers > the > > > term "main line of development"). This means the diagnostic next zone > of > > > development (that diagnostic Zoped) actually predicts both the next age > > > stage (the "objective" ZPD, to use Chaiklin's terminology) and the next > > > step within each age period (what Chaiklin calls the "subjective" one). > > > > > > Speech is the main line of development only in early childhood. But > after > > > early childhood the main lines of development turn out to be various > > forms > > > of verbal thinking (negation at three, play in preschool, "clowning > > > around" at seven, and conscious awareness and mastery at school age, > > > concept development in puberty). This really makes perfect sense: > > > development is, at least at the beginning of each period, more about > > > differentiation than about growth. So if we apply this little insight > to > > > the problem you name--the problem of having fun, play, and games--we > > obtain > > > a process of differentiation: games are a form of play (but not all > play > > is > > > a game), play is a form of having fun (but not all fun is play). > > > > > > In our Kangwando presentation we used a rather course method to > > > differentiate having fun, play, and games: rote, role, and rule. Rote > > play > > > is "having fun", or what Vygotsky calls "quasi-play", that is, > > sensorimotor > > > repetition, something which never goes away from play but which > > transfers > > > its functions upward to role play. Role play is the creation of an > > > imaginary situation, but it is an imaginary situation in which the > rules > > > are imaginary and not explicitly stated and objectively shared. Only > rule > > > play--that is, formal games--represents the final form of preschool > play: > > > rote play (having fun) and role play (imaginary play) are transitional > > > forms which do not die out but which transfer their functions to higher > > > forms as they arise. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:47 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having > > fun > > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they > are > > > not > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? > Odd > > > how > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From helen.harper@bigpond.com Wed Aug 19 04:40:25 2015 From: helen.harper@bigpond.com (Helen Harper) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 21:40:25 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <221AB075-FF89-4885-8D9D-E1C451C975DA@bigpond.com> I wonder if the distinction between fun and play is really quite culturally and linguistically specific. Correct me if I?m wrong, but I don?t think the French really have ?fun?, although ?on peut s?amuser?. So the nearest French equivalent is a verb, not a noun, and it definitely has something to do with how they feel. Our word ?fun?, as a noun, is more of a ?thing', but it still seems to imply a joyful feeling. ?Play? may or may not imply this, but it refers more specifically to a form of activity - I like Rolf?s suggestion of Bateson?s ?metacommunicative frame?. There?s a fair bit of overlap in the meaning, but I wonder if the distinction in English serves to help us focus on the feeling versus the kind of activity. That?s probably why ?fun? lends itself better to advertising (at least, I think it does - I don?t have any evidence handy). Helen > On 19 Aug 2015, at 8:54 pm, Rolf Steier wrote: > > I think the distinction between play and fun is a really difficult one to > pin down, but one that I am also interested in. Bateson presents play as a > kind of metacommunicative frame for an activity. ( I may be > mis-remembering, but I believe ?play? is actually the concept he uses to > illustrate his perspective on framing). This view seems to treat play in > opposition to reality. In your example - shucking corn could perhaps be > viewed as ?play? if the object of the activity were something other than > simply shucking corn (a competition, an act of pretend, etc). > > Fun, to me, seems to be more about one?s engagement with an activity and > doesn?t necessarily depend on the activity?s status as ?play? or ?not > play?. If play involves the meta-structure of an activity, then maybe ?fun? > is more associated with emotion, motivation and engagement. Play and fun > are often thrown around in museum contexts as ideals for engaging young > visitors, but I?m not aware of any work to conceptualize or distinguish > them. If anyone has some suggested readings, i would definitely be > interested. Fun question! > > rolf > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >> Mike, >> I think David was just having a little fun with your post. >> >> But seriously (i.e., no fun ;-( ), I'm wondering a bit about what "fun" is? >> How do you define it? Are you defining it Justice Potter >> Stewart--pornography style? (Okay, now I'm having fun!). >> >> So what is it? >> >> And, more importantly, are we having fun (yet)? >> >> -greg >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:47 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Hi David-- >>> >>> I was just beginning to wonder if anyone had any interest in my question >>> about play and fun. >>> >>> I found a lot interesting about your note, but I fear that, perhaps >> because >>> of the specific framework you are using to interpret the question, the >>> answer does not seem to help much. I was including preschoolers in my >> badly >>> formed notion of an age range of humans. >>> >>> I had two 7 year olds over last weekend. They were adamently NOT >> interested >>> in doing any household chores, but they sure had fun shucking corn for >>> dinner and even want to wash the car, but drought conditions forbid >>> it. My wife and I have fun trying to finish the Times crossword puzzle, >>> congratulating outselves when we make it to Wednesday. And I often have >> fun >>> cooking snacks for kids at the afterschool center where I used to have a >>> presumably serious minded task at hand. Not play. Not a game. But fun. >>> >>> It can happen, I surmise, during any part of a stable developmental phase >>> or at the beginning, middle, or end, of a crisis (despite the negative >>> emotional connotations of the word). >>> >>> Maybe to vague a wondering to be useful. >>> Happy to discuss the topics you raise, but how about a header change? >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:24 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Mike: >>>> >>>> In our presentation over the summer in Kangwondo, we tried to consider >>>> various forms of the "next zone of development" as diagnostic rather >> than >>>> pedagogical devices. That is, we tried to take seriously the idea tha >> the >>>> Zoped is not a "zone of proximal development" or a "zone of pedogogical >>>> development" but rather a zone of pedalogical development, a way of >>>> diagnosing what the child's next zone of development. This seems like >> an >>>> important thing to do; without it, the tendency to reduce the Zoped to >> a >>>> teaching/learning device rather than a developmental diagnostic (as >>>> Vygotsky intended it) is hard to resist. >>>> >>>> When we read Vygotsky's unfinished papers on "Child Development" >> (Volume >>>> Four of the Russian Collected Works and also the 2001 "Lectures on >>>> Pedology" published in Izhevsk) we get the impression that the schedule >>> of >>>> development that Vygotsky had in mind is both too delicate and not >>> delicate >>>> enough. It's too delicate because, for example, you have the crisis at >>>> seventeen which occurs right in the middle of a stable age (puberty) >>> after >>>> which the child apparently simply goes on with the stable age--we can >>> only >>>> explain this by the circumstance, peculiar to the USSR of the time, >> that >>> at >>>> seventeen youth were required to decide whether they were going to >> leave >>>> school and work or enter a preparatory school for higher education. >> It's >>>> not delicate enough because, for example, the Age of Infancy overlaps >>> with >>>> the Crisis at One by at least two months (ten months to twelve months) >>>> during which time some very important changes are taking place in the >>>> child's semantics (according to Halliday, 2002, "The Language of Early >>>> Childhood"). >>>> >>>> There's a way out. Vygotsky also says that the critical periods have a >>>> three part structure (pre-peak, peak, and post-peak) and the stable >>> periods >>>> a two part structure (early and late). In addition, the neoformation >>> which >>>> defines each age period emerges at the END of the age period and not >> the >>>> beginning. So the next zone of development not only predicts the gross >>>> changes of child development which we now simply predict using the >>> calendar >>>> (Infancy, Crisis at One, Early Childhood, Crisis at Three, Preschool, >>>> etc.) but also the next phase within each period. It can do this by >>> tracing >>>> the child's progress along a main line of development (we called this a >>>> "central line of development" when you, me and Andy were working on >>> Volume >>>> Four, but I notice in the pedalogical lectures that Vygotsky prefers >> the >>>> term "main line of development"). This means the diagnostic next zone >> of >>>> development (that diagnostic Zoped) actually predicts both the next age >>>> stage (the "objective" ZPD, to use Chaiklin's terminology) and the next >>>> step within each age period (what Chaiklin calls the "subjective" one). >>>> >>>> Speech is the main line of development only in early childhood. But >> after >>>> early childhood the main lines of development turn out to be various >>> forms >>>> of verbal thinking (negation at three, play in preschool, "clowning >>>> around" at seven, and conscious awareness and mastery at school age, >>>> concept development in puberty). This really makes perfect sense: >>>> development is, at least at the beginning of each period, more about >>>> differentiation than about growth. So if we apply this little insight >> to >>>> the problem you name--the problem of having fun, play, and games--we >>> obtain >>>> a process of differentiation: games are a form of play (but not all >> play >>> is >>>> a game), play is a form of having fun (but not all fun is play). >>>> >>>> In our Kangwando presentation we used a rather course method to >>>> differentiate having fun, play, and games: rote, role, and rule. Rote >>> play >>>> is "having fun", or what Vygotsky calls "quasi-play", that is, >>> sensorimotor >>>> repetition, something which never goes away from play but which >>> transfers >>>> its functions upward to role play. Role play is the creation of an >>>> imaginary situation, but it is an imaginary situation in which the >> rules >>>> are imaginary and not explicitly stated and objectively shared. Only >> rule >>>> play--that is, formal games--represents the final form of preschool >> play: >>>> rote play (having fun) and role play (imaginary play) are transitional >>>> forms which do not die out but which transfer their functions to higher >>>> forms as they arise. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:47 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having >>> fun >>>>> and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they >> are >>>> not >>>>> reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? >> Odd >>>> how >>>>> the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> From ababson@umich.edu Wed Aug 19 07:17:40 2015 From: ababson@umich.edu (Andrew Babson) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:17:40 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got rejected, so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies of life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are different and similar culturally and historically. For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young adulthood. It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this conversation. As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely as we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or should carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the above! Andrew --------------- Andrew Babson, Ph.D. Lecturer Graduate School of Education University of Pennsylvania On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having fun > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are not > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd how > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > Mike > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- sent from my phone From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Aug 19 07:30:46 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:30:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. See below. *Robert* *Oxford English Dictionary* *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy her, And was not this a very good Fun. *2.* *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat familiar.) 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great Lover of what is called Fun. 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my Fun and Jokes. 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about him with much fun in his face. *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The mirth and fun grew fast and furious. 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a rather tall thin young man. 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it does not degenerate into ?fun?. 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for the fun and the fun alone. 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing when you have nothing to do. 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun of going to hotels of the first class. 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; it is enormous fun. 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to wear. *(Hide quotations)* *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to ridicule. *for or in fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* : a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have sexual intercourse. 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of myself. 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't make fun of me, will you? 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their hats on and began to laugh like fun. 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together like fun. 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away like fun. 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if your mamma was to..break it for fun. 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to like fun. 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that he has a bad memory. 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so obliging. 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) *a bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver was poking fun at him? 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial honesty. 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. *(Hide quotations)* *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with the Chinkies. 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share of ?the fun?. 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare fun by-and-by on the Nile. 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and games since I last saw you. 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to jolly fun and games?great notices. 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of brush with the enemy at sea. 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The boffin's going mad.? 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and games?. 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is going to be sorry. 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new legislation. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got rejected, > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies of > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are > different and similar culturally and historically. > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young > adulthood. > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this conversation. > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of > the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely as > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or should > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the above! > > Andrew > > --------------- > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > Lecturer > Graduate School of Education > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having fun > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are > not > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd > how > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > Mike > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- > sent from my phone > -- Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Aug 19 09:19:39 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:19:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists do not appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. A tangled web, me thinks. I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two domains, however they turn out to be constituted. mike That's great, Robert. I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian and English. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > See below. > *Robert* > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > *2.* > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat > familiar.) > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great > Lover of what is called Fun. > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my > Fun and Jokes. > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about > him with much fun in his face. > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a > rather tall thin young man. > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for > the fun and the fun alone. > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing > when you have nothing to do. > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun > of going to hotels of the first class. > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; > it is enormous fun. > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to > wear. > > *(Hide quotations)* > < > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > ridicule. *for or in > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* > : > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, > vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have > sexual intercourse. > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of > myself. > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't > make fun of me, will you? > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together > like fun. > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away > like fun. > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to > like fun. > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that > he has a bad memory. > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so > obliging. > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) > *a > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver > was poking fun at him? > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial > honesty. > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > *(Hide quotations)* > < > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with > the Chinkies. > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share > of ?the fun?. > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and > games since I last saw you. > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of > brush with the enemy at sea. > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The > boffin's going mad.? > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and > games?. > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is > going to be sorry. > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > legislation. > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got > rejected, > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies > of > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are > > different and similar culturally and historically. > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young > > adulthood. > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this > conversation. > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely > as > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or > should > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the > above! > > > > Andrew > > > > --------------- > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > > Lecturer > > Graduate School of Education > > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having > fun > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are > > not > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd > > how > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > sent from my phone > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > Bob Dylan (1964). > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Wed Aug 19 10:21:49 2015 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:21:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun are important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid rules and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a kind of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed in Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between the 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and 'making fun OF' someone. I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each other to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. All the best, Rod On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists do not appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. A tangled web, me thinks. I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two domains, however they turn out to be constituted. mike That's great, Robert. I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian and English. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > See below. > *Robert* > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > *2.* > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat > familiar.) > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great > Lover of what is called Fun. > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my > Fun and Jokes. > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about > him with much fun in his face. > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a > rather tall thin young man. > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for > the fun and the fun alone. > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing > when you have nothing to do. > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun > of going to hotels of the first class. > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; > it is enormous fun. > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to > wear. > > *(Hide quotations)* > < > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > ridicule. *for or in > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* > : > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, > vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have > sexual intercourse. > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of > myself. > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't > make fun of me, will you? > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together > like fun. > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away > like fun. > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to > like fun. > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that > he has a bad memory. > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so > obliging. > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) > *a > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver > was poking fun at him? > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial > honesty. > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > *(Hide quotations)* > < > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with > the Chinkies. > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share > of ?the fun?. > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and > games since I last saw you. > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of > brush with the enemy at sea. > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The > boffin's going mad.? > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and > games?. > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is > going to be sorry. > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > legislation. > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got > rejected, > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies > of > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are > > different and similar culturally and historically. > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young > > adulthood. > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this > conversation. > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely > as > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or > should > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the > above! > > > > Andrew > > > > --------------- > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > > Lecturer > > Graduate School of Education > > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having > fun > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are > > not > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd > > how > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > -- > > sent from my phone > > > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > Bob Dylan (1964). > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Aug 19 10:26:35 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:26:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: JoLLE Announcements In-Reply-To: References: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20150819013819@mail74.atl11.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: <8A262DE2-4A92-4463-9B6E-453E0C0F9DB1@gmail.com> Thank you, Peter! Here?s a PDF of sj Miller's article described in the link you sent out. Actually, I think it?s excerpts from a larger work. Anyway, great read, as far as I?ve gotten. Interestingly, the topic, that combines gender identity and justice, reminds me of Allison Bechtel?s Fun Home, a graphic novel focused on gender. Fun: another thread now going down on the chat. Henry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Scholars Speak Out ? Jolle@UGA.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 595382 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150819/765b4dd5/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- > On Aug 19, 2015, at 4:08 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > What's new with JoLLE@UGA? > > View this email in your browser > > > > > > [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/image001.png] > > > > [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/4e8dfd3c-5d87-4d50-8b65-0be1ea2a1b56.jpg] > > Scholars Speak Out > > sj Miller is Associate Professor of Literacy at the University of Colorado Boulder, as well as co-editor of English Education and co-editor of the book series Social Justice Across Contexts in Education. Drawing on the Queer Literacy Framework, this SSO is a blend of chapters from sj Miller?s (forthcoming) Teaching, Affirming, and Recognizing Trans and Gender Creative Youth: A Queer Literacy Framework. > > You can read the full Scholars Speak Out feature here. > > > > > > > > > > > JoLLE@UGA 2016 Winter Conference > [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/6c84bb33-3b40-4ffb-b76d-765229449b1a.png] > > Don't forget to submit your proposals to the JoLLE@UGA 2016 Winter Conference, themed Lived Words and Worlds: Community Engaged Literacies. Submissions will be accepted until October 4th, 2015 and the conference will take place in Athens, GA on January 30th & 31st, 2016. > > Visit the conference webpage for more information regarding the theme, keynote speaker, and proposal submission guidelines. > > > > > > > > [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/f5583911-8583-4ebc-9bda-fab34dd4a0a1.jpg] > > Fall Issue Deadline > > The deadline for unthemed manuscript submissions that will be considered for the JoLLE Fall 2015 issue is August 31, 2015 at 11:59pm EST. Please submit your papers to jollesubmissions@uga.edu. For more information, please click here. > > > > > > > [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/f38fd23d-0654-4eae-a9fc-bf31bf4ddab9.png] > > Call for JoLLE Reviewers! > > Do you love reading JoLLE? Consider serving as a manuscript reviewer! JoLLE accepts a variety of manuscripts from empirical research reports to field-based practitioner articles. > If you are interested in reviewing or would just like more information about the review process email the Managing Editor, Stephanie Anne Shelton, at jollesubmissions@uga.edu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Copyright ? 2015 The University of Georgia, All rights reserved. > The Journal of Language & Literacy Education is a peer-reviewed, open access journal based in the the Department of Language & Literacy Education in The College of Education at The University of Georgia. > > Our mailing address is: > The University of Georgia > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, GA 30606 > > Add us to your address book > > > unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences > > [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] > > > > > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Aug 19 10:47:22 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:47:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D9BF3CB-34E9-4AC4-A56F-C219BA6A91A7@gmail.com> Robert, Great! ?Fun? goes at least back to Middle English, and contrasts, for me, with ?amusement? of French/Latin origin. I find that the choice of ?fun? from Anglo-saxon, tribal, roots, as opposed to the ?amusement? from the snootier French (probably explained by the domination of French in the higher reaches of culture of England during the centuries after the Norman invasion), tells a lot about what we mean by ?fun? today. Henry > On Aug 19, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > See below. > *Robert* > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > *2.* > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat > familiar.) > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great > Lover of what is called Fun. > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my > Fun and Jokes. > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about > him with much fun in his face. > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a > rather tall thin young man. > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for > the fun and the fun alone. > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing > when you have nothing to do. > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun > of going to hotels of the first class. > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; > it is enormous fun. > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to > wear. > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > ridicule. *for or in > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* : > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, > vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have > sexual intercourse. > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of myself. > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't > make fun of me, will you? > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together > like fun. > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away > like fun. > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to > like fun. > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that > he has a bad memory. > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so obliging. > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) *a > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver > was poking fun at him? > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial > honesty. > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with > the Chinkies. > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share > of ?the fun?. > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and > games since I last saw you. > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of > brush with the enemy at sea. > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The > boffin's going mad.? > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and > games?. > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is > going to be sorry. > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > legislation. > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: > >> Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got rejected, >> so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? >> >> Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach >> I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On >> another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies of >> life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are >> expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are >> different and similar culturally and historically. >> >> For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant >> to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture >> across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of >> experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play >> and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young >> adulthood. >> >> It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this conversation. >> As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this >> conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of >> the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely as >> we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are >> physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or should >> carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like >> cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the above! >> >> Andrew >> >> --------------- >> >> Andrew Babson, Ph.D. >> Lecturer >> Graduate School of Education >> University of Pennsylvania >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: >> >>> I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having fun >>> and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are >> not >>> reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd >> how >>> the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >> >> >> -- >> sent from my phone >> > > > > -- > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > Bob Dylan (1964). From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Aug 19 11:15:34 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:15:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6CA42C6B-D88F-43F7-A314-7E5722120052@gmail.com> Rod, Linking fun and transgression make a whole lot of sense to me. Robert Lake?s etymologyical proffer confirms that. David Kellogg, in this thread, associated play with role and game with rule. I think someone who is having fun is ?playing the clown? by bending rules, which is risky for both the clown and someone trying to stick to the rules. Risky for the clown: ?Go to the office, you clown!? And for the teacher: ?Make me!? Classroom management is often a teacher?s bag of tricks for managing the clowns in class, so that s/he can get on with the lesson. When the clown tries to short circuit a game by breaking the rules, you get a clear idea how fun and games are different things. I am recalling right now stories of myself in both roles: clown and teacher, sometimes combining the roles, challenging the very rules, implicit mostly, for what typically goes on in the classroom. This is fun, Mike! Glad you wondered. Makes for great wandering. Henry > On Aug 19, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun are important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid rules and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a kind of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed in Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between the 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and 'making fun OF' someone. > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each other to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. > > All the best, > > Rod > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading > activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists > do not > appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still > have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in > different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. > > A tangled web, me thinks. > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two > domains, however they turn out to be constituted. > > mike > > > > That's great, Robert. > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian > and English. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > >> It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. >> which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. >> See below. >> *Robert* >> >> *Oxford English Dictionary* >> >> *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* >> >> >> >> >> ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. >> >> 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. >> >> 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy >> her, And was not this a very good Fun. >> >> >> >> *2.* >> >> >> >> *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, >> drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 >> stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat >> familiar.) >> >> 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his >> head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. >> >> 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great >> Lover of what is called Fun. >> >> 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my >> Fun and Jokes. >> >> 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about >> him with much fun in his face. >> >> *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is >> fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. >> >> 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The >> mirth and fun grew fast and furious. >> >> 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a >> rather tall thin young man. >> >> 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it >> does not degenerate into ?fun?. >> >> 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better >> mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. >> >> 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for >> the fun and the fun alone. >> >> 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing >> when you have nothing to do. >> >> 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun >> of going to hotels of the first class. >> >> 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. >> >> 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; >> it is enormous fun. >> >> 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to >> wear. >> >> *(Hide quotations)* >> < >> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to >> ridicule. *for or in >> fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* >> : >> a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, >> vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for >> amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have >> sexual intercourse. >> >> 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of >> myself. >> >> 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't >> make fun of me, will you? >> >> 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their >> hats on and began to laugh like fun. >> >> 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke >> his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. >> >> 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together >> like fun. >> >> 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away >> like fun. >> >> 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if >> your mamma was to..break it for fun. >> >> 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to >> like fun. >> >> 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but >> Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over >> the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? >> >> 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that >> he has a bad memory. >> >> 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. >> >> 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by >> Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. >> >> 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so >> obliging. >> >> 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) >> *a >> bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. >> >> 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver >> was poking fun at him? >> >> 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in >> for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. >> >> 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by >> unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial >> honesty. >> >> 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and >> the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. >> >> *(Hide quotations)* >> < >> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; >> *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* >> >> 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to >> Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken >> out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with >> the Chinkies. >> >> 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in >> carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share >> of ?the fun?. >> >> 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare >> fun by-and-by on the Nile. >> >> 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and >> games since I last saw you. >> >> 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to >> jolly fun and games?great notices. >> >> 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of >> brush with the enemy at sea. >> >> 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The >> boffin's going mad.? >> >> 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly >> conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and >> games?. >> >> 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because >> somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is >> going to be sorry. >> >> 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of >> the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. >> >> 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the >> fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new >> legislation. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: >> >>> Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got >> rejected, >>> so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? >>> >>> Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach >>> I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On >>> another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies >> of >>> life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are >>> expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are >>> different and similar culturally and historically. >>> >>> For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant >>> to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture >>> across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of >>> experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play >>> and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young >>> adulthood. >>> >>> It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this >> conversation. >>> As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this >>> conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of >>> the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely >> as >>> we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are >>> physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or >> should >>> carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like >>> cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the >> above! >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> --------------- >>> >>> Andrew Babson, Ph.D. >>> Lecturer >>> Graduate School of Education >>> University of Pennsylvania >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having >> fun >>>> and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are >>> not >>>> reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd >>> how >>>> the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> sent from my phone >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Robert Lake Ed.D. >> Associate Professor >> Social Foundations of Education >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> Georgia Southern University >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> P. O. Box 8144 >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* >> Bob Dylan (1964). >> > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Aug 19 14:10:13 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:10:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: <6CA42C6B-D88F-43F7-A314-7E5722120052@gmail.com> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <6CA42C6B-D88F-43F7-A314-7E5722120052@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55d4f0ce.a7dd440a.cfe79.482d@mx.google.com> Does this notion of fun also tie into the notion of the Greek meaning of "kanon meaning rule" . There are idealized codes or rules or regularities or canons that are expected to guide our participation. To transgress these moulds or modes we often do so in a spirit of fun or carnival or festival to introduce a different way of undergoing "an" experience. So the transgression is also a way of continuing to stay within the relation to the "kanon". Fun may have a serious side in learning the "kanon" Larry -----Original Message----- From: "HENRY SHONERD" Sent: ?2015-?08-?19 11:17 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games Rod, Linking fun and transgression make a whole lot of sense to me. Robert Lake?s etymologyical proffer confirms that. David Kellogg, in this thread, associated play with role and game with rule. I think someone who is having fun is ?playing the clown? by bending rules, which is risky for both the clown and someone trying to stick to the rules. Risky for the clown: ?Go to the office, you clown!? And for the teacher: ?Make me!? Classroom management is often a teacher?s bag of tricks for managing the clowns in class, so that s/he can get on with the lesson. When the clown tries to short circuit a game by breaking the rules, you get a clear idea how fun and games are different things. I am recalling right now stories of myself in both roles: clown and teacher, sometimes combining the roles, challenging the very rules, implicit mostly, for what typically goes on in the classroom. This is fun, Mike! Glad you wondered. Makes for great wandering. Henry > On Aug 19, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun are important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid rules and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a kind of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed in Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between the 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and 'making fun OF' someone. > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each other to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. > > All the best, > > Rod > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading > activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists > do not > appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still > have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in > different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. > > A tangled web, me thinks. > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two > domains, however they turn out to be constituted. > > mike > > > > That's great, Robert. > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian > and English. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > >> It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. >> which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. >> See below. >> *Robert* >> >> *Oxford English Dictionary* >> >> *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* >> >> >> >> >> ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. >> >> 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. >> >> 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy >> her, And was not this a very good Fun. >> >> >> >> *2.* >> >> >> >> *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, >> drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 >> stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat >> familiar.) >> >> 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his >> head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. >> >> 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great >> Lover of what is called Fun. >> >> 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my >> Fun and Jokes. >> >> 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about >> him with much fun in his face. >> >> *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is >> fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. >> >> 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The >> mirth and fun grew fast and furious. >> >> 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a >> rather tall thin young man. >> >> 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it >> does not degenerate into ?fun?. >> >> 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better >> mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. >> >> 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for >> the fun and the fun alone. >> >> 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing >> when you have nothing to do. >> >> 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun >> of going to hotels of the first class. >> >> 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. >> >> 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; >> it is enormous fun. >> >> 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to >> wear. >> >> *(Hide quotations)* >> < >> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to >> ridicule. *for or in >> fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* >> : >> a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, >> vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for >> amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have >> sexual intercourse. >> >> 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of >> myself. >> >> 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't >> make fun of me, will you? >> >> 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their >> hats on and began to laugh like fun. >> >> 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke >> his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. >> >> 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together >> like fun. >> >> 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away >> like fun. >> >> 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if >> your mamma was to..break it for fun. >> >> 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to >> like fun. >> >> 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but >> Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over >> the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? >> >> 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that >> he has a bad memory. >> >> 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. >> >> 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by >> Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. >> >> 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so >> obliging. >> >> 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) >> *a >> bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. >> >> 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver >> was poking fun at him? >> >> 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in >> for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. >> >> 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by >> unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial >> honesty. >> >> 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and >> the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. >> >> *(Hide quotations)* >> < >> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; >> *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* >> >> 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to >> Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken >> out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with >> the Chinkies. >> >> 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in >> carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share >> of ?the fun?. >> >> 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare >> fun by-and-by on the Nile. >> >> 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and >> games since I last saw you. >> >> 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to >> jolly fun and games?great notices. >> >> 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of >> brush with the enemy at sea. >> >> 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The >> boffin's going mad.? >> >> 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly >> conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and >> games?. >> >> 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because >> somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is >> going to be sorry. >> >> 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of >> the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. >> >> 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the >> fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new >> legislation. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: >> >>> Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got >> rejected, >>> so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? >>> >>> Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach >>> I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On >>> another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies >> of >>> life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are >>> expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are >>> different and similar culturally and historically. >>> >>> For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant >>> to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture >>> across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of >>> experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play >>> and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young >>> adulthood. >>> >>> It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this >> conversation. >>> As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this >>> conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of >>> the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely >> as >>> we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are >>> physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or >> should >>> carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like >>> cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the >> above! >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> --------------- >>> >>> Andrew Babson, Ph.D. >>> Lecturer >>> Graduate School of Education >>> University of Pennsylvania >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having >> fun >>>> and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are >>> not >>>> reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd >>> how >>>> the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> sent from my phone >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Robert Lake Ed.D. >> Associate Professor >> Social Foundations of Education >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> Georgia Southern University >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> P. O. Box 8144 >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* >> Bob Dylan (1964). >> > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From hshonerd@gmail.com Wed Aug 19 15:12:08 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:12:08 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: <55d4f0ce.a7dd440a.cfe79.482d@mx.google.com> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <6CA42C6B-D88F-43F7-A314-7E5722120052@gmail.com> <55d4f0ce.a7dd440a.cfe79.482d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Larry, I agree with you, even though I seem to be contradicting myself. I mean that play and games can be synergistic. I am sure I have seen this with kids. Bending the rules in childhood is not unlike the playing with concepts done as adults. It?s what creative people do. It?s what makes all language use creative to some extent, some uses (e.g. poetry) being more creative than others. One might even call the grammar of a language the ?kanon?, a structured inventory of conventional linguistic units, where unit status is the entrenchment of linguistic expression due to constant use. I can?t remember who proferred very recently the attached article (forgive my poor memory, forgive the highlights) by Vygotsky, Imagination and Creativity in Childhood, but it reminded me of Langacker?s take on grammar, which he calls Cognitive Grammar. Though Langacker, until now, has not devoted much ink to how discourse works, he has always been very clear that grammar is usage based. And all language ?stretches? the grammatical resources, some uses stretch those resources more than others. Henry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Vygotsky__Imag___Creat_in_Childhood.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 522026 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150819/31924dc0/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- > On Aug 19, 2015, at 3:10 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Does this notion of fun also tie into the notion of the Greek meaning of "kanon meaning rule" . > There are idealized codes or rules or regularities or canons that are expected to guide our participation. To transgress these moulds or modes we often do so in a spirit of fun or carnl or festival to introduce a different way of undergoing "an" experience. > So the transgression is also a way of continuing to stay within the relation to the "kanon". > Fun may have a serious side in learning the "kanon" > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "HENRY SHONERD" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?19 11:17 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games > > Rod, > Linking fun and transgression make a whole lot of sense to me. Robert Lake?s etymologyical proffer confirms that. David Kellogg, in this thread, associated play with role and game with rule. I think someone who is having fun is ?playing the clown? by bending rules, which is risky for both the clown and someone trying to stick to the rules. Risky for the clown: ?Go to the office, you clown!? And for the teacher: ?Make me!? Classroom management is often a teacher?s bag of tricks for managing the clowns in class, so that s/he can get on with the lesson. When the clown tries to short circuit a game by breaking the rules, you get a clear idea how fun and games are different things. I am recalling right now stories of myself in both roles: clown and teacher, sometimes combining the roles, challenging the very rules, implicit mostly, for what typically goes on in the classroom. > > This is fun, Mike! Glad you wondered. Makes for great wandering. > > Henry > > > >> On Aug 19, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: >> >> I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun are important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid rules and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a kind of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed in Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between the 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and 'making fun OF' someone. >> >> I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each other to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. >> >> All the best, >> >> Rod >> >> On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: >> My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading >> activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists >> do not >> appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. >> >> Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still >> have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. >> >> And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in >> different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with >> english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. >> >> A tangled web, me thinks. >> >> I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two >> domains, however they turn out to be constituted. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> That's great, Robert. >> >> I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian >> and English. >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >> >>> It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. >>> which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. >>> See below. >>> *Robert* >>> >>> *Oxford English Dictionary* >>> >>> *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. >>> >>> 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. >>> >>> 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy >>> her, And was not this a very good Fun. >>> >>> >>> >>> *2.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, >>> drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 >>> stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat >>> familiar.) >>> >>> 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his >>> head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. >>> >>> 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great >>> Lover of what is called Fun. >>> >>> 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all my >>> Fun and Jokes. >>> >>> 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about >>> him with much fun in his face. >>> >>> *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is >>> fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. >>> >>> 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The >>> mirth and fun grew fast and furious. >>> >>> 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a >>> rather tall thin young man. >>> >>> 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it >>> does not degenerate into ?fun?. >>> >>> 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better >>> mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun. >>> >>> 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for >>> the fun and the fun alone. >>> >>> 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing >>> when you have nothing to do. >>> >>> 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun >>> of going to hotels of the first class. >>> >>> 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun. >>> >>> 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction; >>> it is enormous fun. >>> >>> 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to >>> wear. >>> >>> *(Hide quotations)* >>> < >>> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to >>> ridicule. *for or in >>> fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun* >>> : >>> a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, >>> vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for >>> amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have >>> sexual intercourse. >>> >>> 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of >>> myself. >>> >>> 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't >>> make fun of me, will you? >>> >>> 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their >>> hats on and began to laugh like fun. >>> >>> 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke >>> his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. >>> >>> 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together >>> like fun. >>> >>> 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away >>> like fun. >>> >>> 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if >>> your mamma was to..break it for fun. >>> >>> 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to >>> like fun. >>> >>> 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but >>> Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over >>> the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? >>> >>> 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that >>> he has a bad memory. >>> >>> 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. >>> >>> 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by >>> Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. >>> >>> 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so >>> obliging. >>> >>> 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*) >>> *a >>> bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. >>> >>> 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver >>> was poking fun at him? >>> >>> 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in >>> for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. >>> >>> 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by >>> unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial >>> honesty. >>> >>> 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and >>> the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. >>> >>> *(Hide quotations)* >>> < >>> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; >>> *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* >>> >>> 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to >>> Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken >>> out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with >>> the Chinkies. >>> >>> 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in >>> carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share >>> of ?the fun?. >>> >>> 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare >>> fun by-and-by on the Nile. >>> >>> 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and >>> games since I last saw you. >>> >>> 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to >>> jolly fun and games?great notices. >>> >>> 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of >>> brush with the enemy at sea. >>> >>> 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The >>> boffin's going mad.? >>> >>> 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly >>> conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and >>> games?. >>> >>> 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because >>> somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is >>> going to be sorry. >>> >>> 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of >>> the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. >>> >>> 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the >>> fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new >>> legislation. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got >>> rejected, >>>> so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? >>>> >>>> Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach >>>> I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On >>>> another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies >>> of >>>> life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are >>>> expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are >>>> different and similar culturally and historically. >>>> >>>> For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant >>>> to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture >>>> across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of >>>> experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play >>>> and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young >>>> adulthood. >>>> >>>> It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this >>> conversation. >>>> As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this >>>> conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of >>>> the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely >>> as >>>> we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are >>>> physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or >>> should >>>> carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like >>>> cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the >>> above! >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> --------------- >>>> >>>> Andrew Babson, Ph.D. >>>> Lecturer >>>> Graduate School of Education >>>> University of Pennsylvania >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having >>> fun >>>>> and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are >>>> not >>>>> reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd >>>> how >>>>> the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> sent from my phone >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>> Georgia Southern University >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>> P. O. Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* >>> Bob Dylan (1964). >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Aug 20 05:05:44 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 21:05:44 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Wolfgang Koehler, the Gestalt psychologist whose work on chimpanzees so impressed Vygotsky (see, inter alia, Chapter Four of Thinking and Speech), remarked that contrary to what Mark Twain said humans are not the only species that laughs. Chimpanzees on Tenerife where he worked used to offer food to his hens, and then, when the hens tried to eat it, they would pull the food away and eat it themselves with a huffing sound, which Koehler interpreted as laughter. Anyone who watches elementary school children having fun notices almost right away that one of the most elementary forms of fun is not at all collusion between subversives against the higher powers but precisely the opposite: individualistic acts of aggression and aggrandizement precisely against children perceived to be more helpless, who offer "fun" with impunity. So I think the real question, as always, is how higher forms develop (and actually, Greg, I was quite serious when I said that I thought imaginary situations and abstract rules represented developmentally higher forms of play). One possibility that occurs to me is a kind of "self parody". That is, if you are looking for fun with impunity, one of the few really reliable sources might be making fun of yourself. Self-directed fun then becomes something like self-directed speech, something that is internalizable as a kind of imaginary situation or even an imaginary self. But there are always limits to impunity. Over the last few days I've been watching with horror the cell phone videos made from apartment windows in Tianjin, where twenty tons of TNT went up in a huge fireball that was both immediately lethal to over a hundred people and toxic to countless others in the long term. The cell phone videos always have sound tracks filled with laughter and obscenities (in both Chinese and English--some were made by locals and some by expatriates). And the sort of things that people exclaim when they are having fun. And then the shock wave shatters the apartment window and there is blood everywhere. David Kellogg On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun are > important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and > resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy > playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid rules > and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a kind > of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed in > Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people > recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful > interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' > of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to > each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to > exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between the > 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and > 'making fun OF' someone. > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in > the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People > who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY > together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each other > to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be > more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. > > All the best, > > Rod > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading > activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists > do not > appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still > have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in > different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. > > A tangled web, me thinks. > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two > domains, however they turn out to be constituted. > > mike > > > > That's great, Robert. > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian > and English. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > > See below. > > *Robert* > > > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick. > > > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy > > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > > > > > *2.* > > > > > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety, > > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755 > > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely somewhat > > familiar.) > > > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his > > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great > > Lover of what is called Fun. > > > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all > my > > Fun and Jokes. > > > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about > > him with much fun in his face. > > > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is > > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The > > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said a > > rather tall thin young man. > > > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it > > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the > fun. > > > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for > > the fun and the fun alone. > > > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing > > when you have nothing to do. > > > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the > fun > > of going to hotels of the first class. > > > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather > fun. > > > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science > fiction; > > it is enormous fun. > > > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to > > wear. > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > < > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > > ridicule. *for or in > > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great > fun* > > : > > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, > > vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for > > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have > > sexual intercourse. > > > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of > > myself. > > > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you > won't > > make fun of me, will you? > > > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their > > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ?poke > > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together > > like fun. > > > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing > away > > like fun. > > > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry > if > > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went > to > > like fun. > > > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows > but > > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard > over > > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun > that > > he has a bad memory. > > > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by > > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so > > obliging. > > > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or > *do*) > > *a > > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the > wood-carver > > was poking fun at him? > > > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in > > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back > by > > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French > commercial > > honesty. > > > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar > and > > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > < > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; > > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken > > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had > with > > the Chinkies. > > > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged > in > > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair > share > > of ?the fun?. > > > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare > > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and > > games since I last saw you. > > > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to > > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort > of > > brush with the enemy at sea. > > > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The > > boffin's going mad.? > > > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly > > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and > > games?. > > > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because > > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is > > going to be sorry. > > > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction > of > > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. > > > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects > the > > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > > legislation. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson > wrote: > > > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got > > rejected, > > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here? > > > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On > > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies > > of > > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are > > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are > > > different and similar culturally and historically. > > > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant > > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture > > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of > play > > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or > young > > > adulthood. > > > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this > > conversation. > > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of > this > > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution > of > > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, > namely > > as > > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who > are > > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or > > should > > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like > > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the > > above! > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > --------------- > > > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > > > Lecturer > > > Graduate School of Education > > > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having > > fun > > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they > are > > > not > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? > Odd > > > how > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > sent from my phone > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > > Bob Dylan (1964). > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From rolfsteier@gmail.com Thu Aug 20 07:06:34 2015 From: rolfsteier@gmail.com (Rolf Steier) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:06:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Some insight from Calvin and Hobbes (series of 3 strips)... [image: Inline image 1][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 4] On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:05 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Wolfgang Koehler, the Gestalt psychologist whose work on chimpanzees so > impressed Vygotsky (see, inter alia, Chapter Four of Thinking and Speech), > remarked that contrary to what Mark Twain said humans are not the only > species that laughs. Chimpanzees on Tenerife where he worked used to offer > food to his hens, and then, when the hens tried to eat it, they would pull > the food away and eat it themselves with a huffing sound, which Koehler > interpreted as laughter. Anyone who watches elementary school children > having fun notices almost right away that one of the most elementary forms > of fun is not at all collusion between subversives against the higher > powers but precisely the opposite: individualistic acts of aggression and > aggrandizement precisely against children perceived to be more helpless, > who offer "fun" with impunity. > > So I think the real question, as always, is how higher forms develop (and > actually, Greg, I was quite serious when I said that I thought imaginary > situations and abstract rules represented developmentally higher forms of > play). One possibility that occurs to me is a kind of "self parody". That > is, if you are looking for fun with impunity, one of the few really > reliable sources might be making fun of yourself. Self-directed fun then > becomes something like self-directed speech, something that is > internalizable as a kind of imaginary situation or even an imaginary self. > > But there are always limits to impunity. Over the last few days I've been > watching with horror the cell phone videos made from apartment windows in > Tianjin, where twenty tons of TNT went up in a huge fireball that was both > immediately lethal to over a hundred people and toxic to countless others > in the long term. The cell phone videos always have sound tracks filled > with laughter and obscenities (in both Chinese and English--some were made > by locals and some by expatriates). And the sort of things that people > exclaim when they are having fun. And then the shock wave shatters the > apartment window and there is blood everywhere. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun > are > > important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and > > resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy > > playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid > rules > > and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a > kind > > of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed > in > > Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people > > recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful > > interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' > > of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to > > each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to > > exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between > the > > 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and > > 'making fun OF' someone. > > > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in > > the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People > > who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY > > together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each > other > > to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be > > more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: > > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading > > activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists > > do not > > appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does. > > > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still > > have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. > > > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in > > different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with > > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. > > > > A tangled web, me thinks. > > > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two > > domains, however they turn out to be constituted. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > That's great, Robert. > > > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between > Russian > > and English. > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake < > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > > > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > > > See below. > > > *Robert* > > > > > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > > > > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > > > > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery > Trick. > > > > > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did > buy > > > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > *2.* > > > > > > > > > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or > gaiety, > > > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson > 1755 > > > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely > somewhat > > > familiar.) > > > > > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, > his > > > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > > > > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a > great > > > Lover of what is called Fun. > > > > > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all > > my > > > Fun and Jokes. > > > > > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly > about > > > him with much fun in his face. > > > > > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It > is > > > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > > > > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 > The > > > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > > > > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said > a > > > rather tall thin young man. > > > > > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when > it > > > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > > > > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > > > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the > > fun. > > > > > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play > for > > > the fun and the fun alone. > > > > > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing > nothing > > > when you have nothing to do. > > > > > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the > > fun > > > of going to hotels of the first class. > > > > > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather > > fun. > > > > > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science > > fiction; > > > it is enormous fun. > > > > > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun > to > > > wear. > > > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > < > > > > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > > > ridicule. *for or in > > > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great > > fun* > > > : > > > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly, > > > vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: > for > > > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have > > > sexual intercourse. > > > > > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of > > > myself. > > > > > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you > > won't > > > make fun of me, will you? > > > > > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their > > > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > > > > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to > ?poke > > > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > > > > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together > > > like fun. > > > > > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing > > away > > > like fun. > > > > > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very > sorry > > if > > > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > > > > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts > went > > to > > > like fun. > > > > > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows > > but > > > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard > > over > > > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > > > > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun > > that > > > he has a bad memory. > > > > > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > > > > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant > by > > > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > > > > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so > > > obliging. > > > > > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or > > *do*) > > > *a > > > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > > > > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the > > wood-carver > > > was poking fun at him? > > > > > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go > in > > > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > > > > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back > > by > > > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French > > commercial > > > honesty. > > > > > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar > > and > > > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > < > > > > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically; > > > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > > > > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > > > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had > broken > > > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had > > with > > > the Chinkies. > > > > > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are > engaged > > in > > > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair > > share > > > of ?the fun?. > > > > > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be > rare > > > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > > > > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and > > > games since I last saw you. > > > > > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come > to > > > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > > > > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any > sort > > of > > > brush with the enemy at sea. > > > > > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The > > > boffin's going mad.? > > > > > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the > orderly > > > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ?fun and > > > games?. > > > > > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because > > > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is > > > going to be sorry. > > > > > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the > direction > > of > > > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. > > > > > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects > > the > > > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > > > legislation. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got > > > rejected, > > > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active > here? > > > > > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > > > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. > On > > > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of > ideologies > > > of > > > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun > are > > > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies > are > > > > different and similar culturally and historically. > > > > > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more > relevant > > > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and > culture > > > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > > > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of > > play > > > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or > > young > > > > adulthood. > > > > > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this > > > conversation. > > > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of > > this > > > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the > constitution > > of > > > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, > > namely > > > as > > > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who > > are > > > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or > > > should > > > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit > like > > > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the > > > above! > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > --------------- > > > > > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > > > > Lecturer > > > > Graduate School of Education > > > > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between > having > > > fun > > > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they > > are > > > > not > > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? > > Odd > > > > how > > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with > an > > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > sent from my phone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > > Georgia Southern University > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > > P. O. Box 8144 > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > > > Bob Dylan (1964). > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > > by an official order form. > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1calvin-hobbes-have-fun-outside-not-tv.png Type: image/png Size: 40852 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150820/7fdb2274/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3calvin-hobbes-have-fun-outside-3.png Type: image/png Size: 44021 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150820/7fdb2274/attachment-0001.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2calvin-hobbes-have-fun-outside-2.png Type: image/png Size: 40587 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150820/7fdb2274/attachment-0002.png From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Aug 20 07:31:59 2015 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:31:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE3993@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Thanks Rolf - Calvin and Hobbes was a lot of fun, but not play. A little later I am going to go play basketball with a lot of people who are better than me - which is play but often not a whole lot of fun. And life goes on. Michael -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Rolf Steier Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:07 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games Some insight from Calvin and Hobbes (series of 3 strips)... [image: Inline image 1][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 4] On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:05 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Wolfgang Koehler, the Gestalt psychologist whose work on chimpanzees > so impressed Vygotsky (see, inter alia, Chapter Four of Thinking and > Speech), remarked that contrary to what Mark Twain said humans are not > the only species that laughs. Chimpanzees on Tenerife where he worked > used to offer food to his hens, and then, when the hens tried to eat > it, they would pull the food away and eat it themselves with a huffing > sound, which Koehler interpreted as laughter. Anyone who watches > elementary school children having fun notices almost right away that > one of the most elementary forms of fun is not at all collusion > between subversives against the higher powers but precisely the > opposite: individualistic acts of aggression and aggrandizement > precisely against children perceived to be more helpless, who offer "fun" with impunity. > > So I think the real question, as always, is how higher forms develop > (and actually, Greg, I was quite serious when I said that I thought > imaginary situations and abstract rules represented developmentally > higher forms of play). One possibility that occurs to me is a kind of > "self parody". That is, if you are looking for fun with impunity, one > of the few really reliable sources might be making fun of yourself. > Self-directed fun then becomes something like self-directed speech, > something that is internalizable as a kind of imaginary situation or even an imaginary self. > > But there are always limits to impunity. Over the last few days I've > been watching with horror the cell phone videos made from apartment > windows in Tianjin, where twenty tons of TNT went up in a huge > fireball that was both immediately lethal to over a hundred people and > toxic to countless others in the long term. The cell phone videos > always have sound tracks filled with laughter and obscenities (in both > Chinese and English--some were made by locals and some by > expatriates). And the sort of things that people exclaim when they are > having fun. And then the shock wave shatters the apartment window and there is blood everywhere. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and > > fun > are > > important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery > > and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we > > enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that > > seemingly rigid > rules > > and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is > > a > kind > > of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun > > listed > in > > Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people > > recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful > > interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' > > of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves > > to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can > > build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of > > trust between > the > > 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing > > and 'making fun OF' someone. > > > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part > > in the negative connotations usually now associated with > > 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially > > safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous > > because they encourage each > other > > to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may > > be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. > > > > All the best, > > > > Rod > > > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: > > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a > > leading activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental > > psychologists do not appear to make use of the term and I do not > > know who does. > > > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to > > still have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. > > > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized > > in different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with > > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. > > > > A tangled web, me thinks. > > > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the > > two domains, however they turn out to be constituted. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > That's great, Robert. > > > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between > Russian > > and English. > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake < > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > wrote: > > > > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > > > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > > > See below. > > > *Robert* > > > > > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > > > > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > > > > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery > Trick. > > > > > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did > buy > > > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > *2.* > > > > > > > > > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or > gaiety, > > > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or > > > pleasure.(Johnson > 1755 > > > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely > somewhat > > > familiar.) > > > > > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, > his > > > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > > > > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a > great > > > Lover of what is called Fun. > > > > > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For all > > my > > > Fun and Jokes. > > > > > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly > about > > > him with much fun in his face. > > > > > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It > is > > > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > > > > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 > The > > > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > > > > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? said > a > > > rather tall thin young man. > > > > > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when > it > > > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > > > > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > > > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of > > > the > > fun. > > > > > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play > for > > > the fun and the fun alone. > > > > > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing > nothing > > > when you have nothing to do. > > > > > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the > > fun > > > of going to hotels of the first class. > > > > > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather > > fun. > > > > > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science > > fiction; > > > it is enormous fun. > > > > > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun > to > > > wear. > > > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > < > > > > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f > alse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > > > ridicule. *for or in > > > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, > > > great > > fun* > > > : > > > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very > > > quickly, vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: > for > > > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to > > > have sexual intercourse. > > > > > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of > > > myself. > > > > > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you > > won't > > > make fun of me, will you? > > > > > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their > > > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > > > > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to > ?poke > > > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > > > > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together > > > like fun. > > > > > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing > > away > > > like fun. > > > > > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very > sorry > > if > > > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > > > > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts > went > > to > > > like fun. > > > > > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows > > but > > > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount > > > guard > > over > > > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > > > > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun > > that > > > he has a bad memory. > > > > > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > > > > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant > by > > > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > > > > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so > > > obliging. > > > > > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or > > *do*) > > > *a > > > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > > > > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the > > wood-carver > > > was poking fun at him? > > > > > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go > in > > > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > > > > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back > > by > > > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French > > commercial > > > honesty. > > > > > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar > > and > > > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > < > > > > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f > alse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used > > > ironically; > > > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > > > > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > > > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had > broken > > > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly > > > had > > with > > > the Chinkies. > > > > > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are > engaged > > in > > > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their > > > fair > > share > > > of ?the fun?. > > > > > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be > rare > > > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > > > > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and > > > games since I last saw you. > > > > > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come > to > > > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > > > > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any > sort > > of > > > brush with the enemy at sea. > > > > > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. ?The > > > boffin's going mad.? > > > > > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the > orderly > > > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of > > > ?fun and games?. > > > > > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because > > > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, > > > somebody is going to be sorry. > > > > > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the > direction > > of > > > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers. > > > > > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects > > the > > > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > > > legislation. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got > > > rejected, > > > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more > > > > active > here? > > > > > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > > > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. > On > > > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of > ideologies > > > of > > > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and > > > > fun > are > > > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those > > > > ideologies > are > > > > different and similar culturally and historically. > > > > > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more > relevant > > > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and > culture > > > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > > > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think > > > > of > > play > > > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood > > > > or > > young > > > > adulthood. > > > > > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this > > > conversation. > > > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the > > > > relation of > > this > > > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the > constitution > > of > > > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after > > > > life, > > namely > > > as > > > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors > > > > who > > are > > > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we > > > > can or > > > should > > > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young > > > > spirit > like > > > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to > > > > the > > > above! > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > --------------- > > > > > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > > > > Lecturer > > > > Graduate School of Education > > > > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between > having > > > fun > > > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if > > > > > they > > are > > > > not > > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? > > Odd > > > > how > > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > > > > > with > an > > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > sent from my phone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > University > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. > > > O. Box 8144 > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > ________________________________ > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > it. > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > emails > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > > by an official order form. > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Aug 20 09:42:36 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:42:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <55d3388f.43bc420a.60565.0995@mx.google.com> <55d33ddb.46eb420a.6a2ab.110e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Greg, The "spirit" of honouring the agency of artifacts is such a radical departure from our current notions of common sense. I am sending a long [90 minute conversation] that develops a profound deepening of this notion to go "beneath" notions of naturalism/ecology to embrace a multitude of agencies/spirits. It challenges the taken for granted notions of the "anthropology" as it "morphs" beyond its current borders. http://www.ikebarberlearningcentre.ubc.ca/latour/. Larry On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Greg Thompson < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > wrote: > Larry, > Yes, I think that "intersubjectivity" is nice, but it has it's limits. > Latour had a nice article in MCA simply titled "On Interobjectivity" that > pushed a bit beyond the limits of "intersubjectivity". > I've attached it (figured it was "old" enough to share - hope nobody comes > after me...). > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Lplarry wrote: > >> Greg, >> My impression is that meaning is in the "act". The act is referential and >> the meaning arises through these multiple characteristics which develop >> through a socio-naturalistic path of development. >> Sinha's focus is the 2nd person intersubjective realm. >> Greg he does say that "cognitive linguistics" as a field is grappling >> with where "mind" is located but I think he is taking "mind" into a >> socio-naturalistic arena beyond Kant. >> >> I am now going to read a book he wrote "language and representation" as >> it has a chapter on the historical origins of our notions of semiosis and >> reference. >> Greg, there seem to be two different notions of "intersubjevtivity" >> 1) belonging TOGETHER >> 2) BELONGING together. >> In the first the together is primary and then we each find our way to >> each other and find approaches to "belong" as the consummation. This holds >> Kantian themes. >> The secong posits the belonging as primordial and as we undergo shared >> mutual experiences becoming "an" experience the subject matter (the >> primordial source of belonging) undergoes a felt sense of our be/coming >> together. The belonging is primordial and the togetherness is derived. >> BOTH approaches are named " intersubjevtive but they highlight different >> characteristics of the character of the concept "intersubjevtivity" >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Lplarry" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:52 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture >> >> >> >> From: Greg Thompson >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?18 6:41 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Referential Realism and Gesture >> >> >> Larry, >> This is a very neat and smart paper. >> My one concern is that it seems to slide down the dualistic side of a >> Kantian view of the world that presumes the very mistakes that the author >> is trying to sidestep (e.g., that meaning is in the head). >> >> I think there is good reason to think of discursive (perhaps semiotic) >> objects as real. I don't think that they are just "maps" of reality (I'm >> not 100% certain that this is Sinha's point since I rushed through a bit, >> but it seemed like where it was headed). They ARE reality (or, at least we >> could say that they are "real" and "objective" in Hegel's sense). >> >> That's a big leap, I know, but I find the alternative to be equally >> problematic. >> -greg >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:46 PM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> >> > I am not sure how relevant this article may be but it does have overlaps >> > with many themes discussed and Sinha's version of cognitive >> > linguistics which has an intersubjective focus putting referential >> > realism as foundational a clear presentation of this tradition >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 20 09:57:22 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:57:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE3993@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE3993@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Laughter as an index of fun seems right, David. The origins of laughter are very early in human ontogeny.... not sure how early. The Calvin and Hobbes were very helpful -- as well as being fun. mike On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Thanks Rolf - Calvin and Hobbes was a lot of fun, but not play. A little > later I am going to go play basketball with a lot of people who are better > than me - which is play but often not a whole lot of fun. > > And life goes on. > > Michael > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of Rolf Steier > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:07 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games > > Some insight from Calvin and Hobbes (series of 3 strips)... > > [image: Inline image 1][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 4] > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:05 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > Wolfgang Koehler, the Gestalt psychologist whose work on chimpanzees > > so impressed Vygotsky (see, inter alia, Chapter Four of Thinking and > > Speech), remarked that contrary to what Mark Twain said humans are not > > the only species that laughs. Chimpanzees on Tenerife where he worked > > used to offer food to his hens, and then, when the hens tried to eat > > it, they would pull the food away and eat it themselves with a huffing > > sound, which Koehler interpreted as laughter. Anyone who watches > > elementary school children having fun notices almost right away that > > one of the most elementary forms of fun is not at all collusion > > between subversives against the higher powers but precisely the > > opposite: individualistic acts of aggression and aggrandizement > > precisely against children perceived to be more helpless, who offer > "fun" with impunity. > > > > So I think the real question, as always, is how higher forms develop > > (and actually, Greg, I was quite serious when I said that I thought > > imaginary situations and abstract rules represented developmentally > > higher forms of play). One possibility that occurs to me is a kind of > > "self parody". That is, if you are looking for fun with impunity, one > > of the few really reliable sources might be making fun of yourself. > > Self-directed fun then becomes something like self-directed speech, > > something that is internalizable as a kind of imaginary situation or > even an imaginary self. > > > > But there are always limits to impunity. Over the last few days I've > > been watching with horror the cell phone videos made from apartment > > windows in Tianjin, where twenty tons of TNT went up in a huge > > fireball that was both immediately lethal to over a hundred people and > > toxic to countless others in the long term. The cell phone videos > > always have sound tracks filled with laughter and obscenities (in both > > Chinese and English--some were made by locals and some by > > expatriates). And the sort of things that people exclaim when they are > > having fun. And then the shock wave shatters the apartment window and > there is blood everywhere. > > > > David Kellogg > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < > > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and > > > fun > > are > > > important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery > > > and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we > > > enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that > > > seemingly rigid > > rules > > > and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is > > > a > > kind > > > of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun > > > listed > > in > > > Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people > > > recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful > > > interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the > 'loosening' > > > of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves > > > to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can > > > build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of > > > trust between > > the > > > 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing > > > and 'making fun OF' someone. > > > > > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part > > > in the negative connotations usually now associated with > > > 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially > > > safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous > > > because they encourage each > > other > > > to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may > > > be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Rod > > > > > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole wrote: > > > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a > > > leading activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental > > > psychologists do not appear to make use of the term and I do not > > > know who does. > > > > > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to > > > still have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it. > > > > > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized > > > in different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with > > > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg. > > > > > > A tangled web, me thinks. > > > > > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the > > > two domains, however they turn out to be constituted. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > That's great, Robert. > > > > > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between > > Russian > > > and English. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake < > > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED. > > > > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution. > > > > See below. > > > > *Robert* > > > > > > > > *Oxford English Dictionary* > > > > > > > > *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke. > > > > > > > > 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery > > Trick. > > > > > > > > 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did > > buy > > > > her, And was not this a very good Fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *2.* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or > > gaiety, > > > > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or > > > > pleasure.(Johnson > > 1755 > > > > stigmatizes it as ?a low cant word?; in present use it is merely > > somewhat > > > > familiar.) > > > > > > > > 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, > > his > > > > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun. > > > > > > > > 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a > > great > > > > Lover of what is called Fun. > > > > > > > > 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'? For > all > > > my > > > > Fun and Jokes. > > > > > > > > 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly > > about > > > > him with much fun in his face. > > > > > > > > *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 > It > > is > > > > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue. > > > > > > > > 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 > > The > > > > mirth and fun grew fast and furious. > > > > > > > > 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ?What's the fun?? > said > > a > > > > rather tall thin young man. > > > > > > > > 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when > > it > > > > does not degenerate into ?fun?. > > > > > > > > 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better > > > > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of > > > > the > > > fun. > > > > > > > > 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play > > for > > > > the fun and the fun alone. > > > > > > > > 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing > > nothing > > > > when you have nothing to do. > > > > > > > > 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see > the > > > fun > > > > of going to hotels of the first class. > > > > > > > > 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is > rather > > > fun. > > > > > > > > 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science > > > fiction; > > > > it is enormous fun. > > > > > > > > 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun > > to > > > > wear. > > > > > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > > < > > > > > > > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f > > alse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to > > > > ridicule. *for or in > > > > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, > > > > great > > > fun* > > > > : > > > > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very > > > > quickly, vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of > the thing*: > > for > > > > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to > > > > have sexual intercourse. > > > > > > > > 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of > > > > myself. > > > > > > > > 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you > > > won't > > > > make fun of me, will you? > > > > > > > > 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put > their > > > > hats on and began to laugh like fun. > > > > > > > > 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to > > ?poke > > > > his fun? at the unfortunate traveller. > > > > > > > > 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' > together > > > > like fun. > > > > > > > > 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is > blazing > > > away > > > > like fun. > > > > > > > > 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very > > sorry > > > if > > > > your mamma was to..break it for fun. > > > > > > > > 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts > > went > > > to > > > > like fun. > > > > > > > > 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who > knows > > > but > > > > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount > > > > guard > > > over > > > > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ?What fun!? > > > > > > > > 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun > > > that > > > > he has a bad memory. > > > > > > > > 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun. > > > > > > > > 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned > lieutenant > > by > > > > Stanton, ?just for the fun of the thing?. > > > > > > > > 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so > > > > obliging. > > > > > > > > 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or > > > *do*) > > > > *a > > > > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour. > > > > > > > > 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the > > > wood-carver > > > > was poking fun at him? > > > > > > > > 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur > mimes..go > > in > > > > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing. > > > > > > > > 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own > back > > > by > > > > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French > > > commercial > > > > honesty. > > > > > > > > 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed > Edgar > > > and > > > > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears. > > > > > > > > *(Hide quotations)* > > > > < > > > > > > > > > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f > > alse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used > > > > ironically; > > > > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.* > > > > > > > > 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to > > > > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had > > broken > > > > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly > > > > had > > > with > > > > the Chinkies. > > > > > > > > 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are > > engaged > > > in > > > > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their > > > > fair > > > share > > > > of ?the fun?. > > > > > > > > 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be > > rare > > > > fun by-and-by on the Nile. > > > > > > > > 1920 ?Sapper? *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun > and > > > > games since I last saw you. > > > > > > > > 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you > come > > to > > > > jolly fun and games?great notices. > > > > > > > > 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any > > sort > > > of > > > > brush with the enemy at sea. > > > > > > > > 1948 ?N. Shute? *No Highway* iii. 70 ?Fun and games,? he said. > ?The > > > > boffin's going mad.? > > > > > > > > 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the > > orderly > > > > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of > > > > ?fun and games?. > > > > > > > > 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened > because > > > > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, > > > > somebody is going to be sorry. > > > > > > > > 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the > > direction > > > of > > > > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local > drivers. > > > > > > > > 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also > expects > > > the > > > > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new > > > > legislation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got > > > > rejected, > > > > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more > > > > > active > > here? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach > > > > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young > people. > > On > > > > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of > > ideologies > > > > of > > > > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and > > > > > fun > > are > > > > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those > > > > > ideologies > > are > > > > > different and similar culturally and historically. > > > > > > > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more > > relevant > > > > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and > > culture > > > > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of > > > > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think > > > > > of > > > play > > > > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood > > > > > or > > > young > > > > > adulthood. > > > > > > > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this > > > > conversation. > > > > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the > > > > > relation of > > > this > > > > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the > > constitution > > > of > > > > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after > > > > > life, > > > namely > > > > as > > > > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors > > > > > who > > > are > > > > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we > > > > > can or > > > > should > > > > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young > > > > > spirit > > like > > > > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to > > > > > the > > > > above! > > > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > --------------- > > > > > > > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D. > > > > > Lecturer > > > > > Graduate School of Education > > > > > University of Pennsylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between > > having > > > > fun > > > > > > and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if > > > > > > they > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of > development? > > > Odd > > > > > how > > > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science > > > > > > with > > an > > > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > sent from my phone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > > University > > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. > > > > O. Box 8144 > > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > ________________________________ > > > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > > > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > > > > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for > > > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > > > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > > > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on > > it. > > > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > > > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > > > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts > > > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan > > emails > > > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility > > > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > > > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless > accompanied > > > by an official order form. > > > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Aug 20 11:11:51 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 18:11:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE3993@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps the answer lies here: Martin From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 20 15:53:33 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:53:33 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE3993@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: That was no fun at all, Martin. And not a laughing matter either! The url would not connect! :-)) mike On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Martin John Packer < mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > Perhaps the answer lies here: > > > > Martin > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Aug 21 09:01:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:01:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: postdoc opportunity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hot Postdoc Mike -- Postdoctoral Researcher http://www.msichicago.org/about-the-museum/jobs/opportunities/ The Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago is searching for a Postdoctoral Researcher to support a new NSF-supported longitudinal study of an out-of-school time program?s impact on its participants, mostly from communities that are underrepresented in STEM careers. The project, From Community to Career, is an experimental, mixed-methods study aimed at following program participants for up to five years after their graduation. The Postdoctoral Researcher will be mostly responsible for qualitative data collection, analysis and dissemination along with acting as the principal project manager. This includes designing qualitative, case study and/or ethnographic research methods, analyzing data as part of a larger team and preparing publications and presentations. As project manager, the researcher will also oversee logistics, communication and coordination of the project. *Responsibilities* Responsibilities include, but are not limited to, the following: - Lead qualitative, case study and/or ethnographic research studies in support of the project?s core research questions. This includes methodological design, data collection, analysis and reporting. - Manage and coordinate documentation, budgets, timelines, reports, intra-team communication and other logistics related to a large, federally funded research project. - Represent the Museum at professional conferences. - Prepare scholarly publications as lead and supporting author. - Participate in the Museum?s Institutional Review Board. - Support the Museum?s evaluation and research team on other projects. - Participate as team member in assigned working groups and on various Museum teams. - Maintain departmental responsibilities (meetings, email, phone, etc.). - Maintain the highest ethical standards. - Contribute to a collaborative, positive, congenial and professional team environment. *Qualifications* - Doctoral degree (Ph.D.) or equivalent before 2016 in science education, learning sciences, educational psychology or similar field. - Experience and background in qualitative data collection, analysis and publication. - Experience working with populations that are diverse in ethnicity, cultural heritage, language, gender identity, educational background and socio-economic status. - Ability to currently work legally within the United States. - Assessment development. - Experience working in out-of-school environments. - Spanish fluency preferred. *Additional Requirements* As part of a highly collaborative evaluation and research team based within the Museum, the researcher will work with many other experts and needs to be able to give and receive positive criticism, take on a wide variety of roles, respect deadlines and support a friendly and jovial environment. Appreciation of diversity in both thought and experience is a must. This is a temporary full-time, 12-month position with full benefits and the Museum has the option to renew for up to two additional years. Conference travel and publication costs are supported. Relocation costs are not supported. *Application Materials* Interested applicants should apply and submit the following: - Cover letter addressing qualifications as well as how the postdoctoral position fits with your personal goals. - Curriculum vitae. Interested applicants should also submit the following to msiresearch@msichicago.org - Contact information of two professional references. - Two samples of your scholarly work that best represents what you can bring to the project. We prefer at least one to be a work that is published or has been submitted for publication. Review of applications will begin immediately and continue until the position is filled. The start date is flexible but preferably by the end of 2015. -- *Aaron Price, Ph.D.* *Manager, Evaluation & Research* Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago 5700 S Lake Shore Drive, Chicago, IL 60637 (773) 947-3101 | http://msichicago.org [image: http://www.msichicago.org/misc/sig_msi_75.png] -- Shirin Vossoughi Assistant Professor School of Education & Social Policy | Northwestern University http://www.sesp.northwestern.edu/profile/?p=22753&/ShirinVossoughi/ 424 298 7573 (cell) -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:01:52 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:01:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] A Continuation of Dewey's: Having an Experience in Mead's notion of the Imaginal Message-ID: I today read this article that overlaps with Dewey's "Having an Experience" that shows a strong family resemblance. Greg, in particular, I wanted to send this to you as a part of reflecting on notions exploring "intersubjectivity" and "interobjectivity". This article does seem to have a North American type emphasis on the "I" in relation to the "Me" but read in con/junction with the articles we have been exploring recently, I know others will be fascinated with Mead's notions of aesthetic. In particular I recommend the section where Mead contrasts action as "useful" and the experience that is "appreciative" and has a relation to use values. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AUGUST 21 2015 NEIDDU ANNAIntrasubjective and Intersubjective Creative Process in MEAD.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 351664 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150821/93811f5e/attachment-0001.pdf From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Fri Aug 21 13:19:58 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:19:58 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Kozol's writing place Message-ID: Hi Everyone, The first 12 minutes of th ?e program linked below? are worth watching ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal some of the sources of his inspiration to write. Langston Hughes sent Kozol an autographed photo ? of himself? ?after? ?Kozol? was fired ? from his first teaching job? for reading one of ?Hughes'? poems in a high school English class. ? ?Kozol? says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. Robert Lake Ed.D. Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Aug 21 21:08:05 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 22:08:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC3110236F723@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9BE3993@CIO-KRC-D1MBX04.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Mike, maybe you can link to this list. It is contraindications to laughter (no joke!): http://www.laughteronlineuniversity.com/laughter-contra-indications/ Most importantly, they write: " If in doubt first ask your doctor if it?s OK for you to laugh." So unless you asked your doctors, you all better stop it with the jokes! -greg On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > That was no fun at all, Martin. And not a laughing matter either! The url > would not connect! :-)) > > mike > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > > > Perhaps the answer lies here: > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:03:42 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:03:42 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Robert, The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! Henry > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > The first 12 minutes of th > ?e program linked below? > are worth watching > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal some > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > autographed > photo > ? of himself? > > ?after? > > ?Kozol? > was fired > ? from his first teaching job? > for reading one of > ?Hughes'? > poems in a high school English class. > ? > ?Kozol? > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo > ?d? and > ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > Bob Dylan (1964). From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sat Aug 22 10:08:38 2015 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 13:08:38 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. RL On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > Robert, > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things I > especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, and , of > course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared an article on > Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century America, who I > associate with the very kind of New England house where Kozol writes.) All > of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind > on the creative process. And the importance of lived experience Who > couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > Henry > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > The first 12 minutes of th > > ?e program linked below? > > are worth watching > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal > some > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > autographed > > photo > > ? of himself? > > > > ?after? > > > > ?Kozol? > > was fired > > ? from his first teaching job? > > for reading one of > > ?Hughes'? > > poems in a high school English class. > > ? > > ?Kozol? > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo > > ?d? and > > ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > > Bob Dylan (1964). > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:17:58 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:17:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55d8aeda.6861420a.1d35b.ffff9b0f@mx.google.com> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . -----Original Message----- From: "Robert Lake" Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. RL On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > Robert, > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things I > especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, and , of > course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared an article on > Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century America, who I > associate with the very kind of New England house where Kozol writes.) All > of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind > on the creative process. And the importance of lived experience Who > couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > Henry > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > The first 12 minutes of th > > ?e program linked below? > > are worth watching > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal > some > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > autographed > > photo > > ? of himself? > > > > ?after? > > > > ?Kozol? > > was fired > > ? from his first teaching job? > > for reading one of > > ?Hughes'? > > poems in a high school English class. > > ? > > ?Kozol? > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo > > ?d? and > > ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > > Bob Dylan (1964). > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:36:32 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 10:36:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place In-Reply-To: <55d8aeda.6861420a.1d35b.ffff9b0f@mx.google.com> References: <55d8aeda.6861420a.1d35b.ffff9b0f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55d8b335.0a00450a.263ad.fffff8ba@mx.google.com> What does it mean to "essay". Vygotsky wrote: The relation of thought to word is not a thing but a process, a continual MOVEMENT back and forth from thought to word and from word to thought. In that process the RELATION OF thought to word UNDERGOES changes which themselves may be regarded AS DEVELOPMENT in the functional sense. Thought is not merely expressed in words, it comes INTO EXISTENCE THROUGH THEM. ESSAY as art form ESSAY as thought coming into existence ESSAY as having "an" experience. -----Original Message----- From: "Lplarry" Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:18 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . From: Robert Lake Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. RL On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > Robert, > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things I > especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, and , of > course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared an article on > Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century America, who I > associate with the very kind of New England house where Kozol writes.) All > of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind > on the creative process. And the importance of lived experience Who > couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > Henry > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > The first 12 minutes of th > > ?e program linked below? > > are worth watching > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal > some > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > autographed > > photo > > ? of himself? > > > > ?after? > > > > ?Kozol? > > was fired > > ? from his first teaching job? > > for reading one of > > ?Hughes'? > > poems in a high school English class. > > ? > > ?Kozol? > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo > > ?d? and > > ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* > > Bob Dylan (1964). > > > From lspopov@bgsu.edu Sat Aug 22 10:49:47 2015 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:49:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again Message-ID: Hi Larry, Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too much of a stretch. By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, although I am not sure how close it is. Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best shape about that. Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . -----Original Message----- From: "Robert Lake" Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. RL On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > Robert, > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things > I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, > and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared > an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century > America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where > Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s > Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of > lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > Henry > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > The first 12 minutes of th > > ?e program linked below? > > are worth watching > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and > > reveal > some > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > autographed > > photo > > ? of himself? > > > > ?after? > > > > ?Kozol? > > was fired > > ? from his first teaching job? > > for reading one of > > ?Hughes'? > > poems in a high school English class. > > ? > > ?Kozol? > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he > > was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. > > Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Aug 22 11:25:34 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:25:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for bringing back perezhivanie. We are working on creating a kind of data base of uses of perezhivanie in english translations of Russian and russian translations of experience in English translation of people like Dewey. Concerning opyit. In my role as an experimental psychologist in the research that I participated in there during the 1960's in the laboratories of Luria, Sokolov, and Pressman&Varga (three very different lines of research) the word oypit was used in both print and everyday language to refer to an *experiment. *Hence the importance of Andy's observation that Dewey's "experience" had been translated in Russian works he searched, as opyit. To understand the absurdity of the result, think about the idea that Dewey was writing about experiments? It seems to me that if nothing else, these exercises in inter-cultural/linguistic communication make each of us more savvy about our own use of the terms. Too bad Russian-American relations are so lousy -- again. It makes an already difficult intellectual task more difficult. :-(( So its good that we know that the effort itself is educational. :-)) mike On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too > much of a stretch. > > By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for > life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of > thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, > although I am not sure how close it is. > > Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. > It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, > as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say > reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis > can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be > a required condition for perezhivanie. > > Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to > emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, > passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, > and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and > words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best > shape about that. > > Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is > very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the > translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the > Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English > word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can > just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember > that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national > assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. > > Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life > experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. > > Lubomir > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". > One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the > "creative" Process of art forms . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Robert Lake" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. > RL > On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > > > Robert, > > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things > > I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, > > and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared > > an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century > > America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where > > Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s > > Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of > > lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > > Henry > > > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > The first 12 minutes of th > > > ?e program linked below? > > > are worth watching > > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and > > > reveal > > some > > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > > autographed > > > photo > > > ? of himself? > > > > > > ?after? > > > > > > ?Kozol? > > > was fired > > > ? from his first teaching job? > > > for reading one of > > > ?Hughes'? > > > poems in a high school English class. > > > ? > > > ?Kozol? > > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he > > > was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > University > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. > > > Box 8144 > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 11:51:21 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:51:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> Lubomir, This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" to perezhivanie. With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the "character" of experience. Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a KEY concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of communication/consciousness. It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. -----Original Message----- From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again Hi Larry, Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too much of a stretch. By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, although I am not sure how close it is. Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best shape about that. Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . -----Original Message----- From: "Robert Lake" Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. RL On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > Robert, > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things > I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, > and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared > an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century > America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where > Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s > Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of > lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > Henry > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > The first 12 minutes of th > > ?e program linked below? > > are worth watching > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and > > reveal > some > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > autographed > > photo > > ? of himself? > > > > ?after? > > > > ?Kozol? > > was fired > > ? from his first teaching job? > > for reading one of > > ?Hughes'? > > poems in a high school English class. > > ? > > ?Kozol? > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he > > was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > University > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. > > Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Sat Aug 22 12:30:05 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:30:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All the main characters are there. pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by Anna Wierzbicka? mike On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: > Lubomir, > This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" to > perezhivanie. > With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the > "character" of experience. > > Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also > therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a KEY > concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of > communication/consciousness. > It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around > pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again > > Hi Larry, > > Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too > much of a stretch. > > By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for > life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of > thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, > although I am not sure how close it is. > > Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. > It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, > as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say > reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis > can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be > a required condition for perezhivanie. > > Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to > emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, > passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, > and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and > words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best > shape about that. > > Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is > very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the > translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the > Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English > word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can > just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember > that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national > assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. > > Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life > experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. > > Lubomir > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". > One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the > "creative" Process of art forms . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Robert Lake" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. > RL > On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > > > Robert, > > The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things > > I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, > > and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared > > an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century > > America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where > > Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s > > Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of > > lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! > > Henry > > > > > On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > The first 12 minutes of th > > > ?e program linked below? > > > are worth watching > > > ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and > > > reveal > > some > > > of the sources of his inspiration to write. > > > Langston Hughes sent Kozol an > > > autographed > > > photo > > > ? of himself? > > > > > > ?after? > > > > > > ?Kozol? > > > was fired > > > ? from his first teaching job? > > > for reading one of > > > ?Hughes'? > > > poems in a high school English class. > > > ? > > > ?Kozol? > > > says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he > > > was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* > > > http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. > > > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Social Foundations of Education > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern > > > University > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. > > > Box 8144 > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). > > > > > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 15:43:25 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:43:25 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After I sent you the email, it occurred to me that Kozol?s writing process involved the collaboration of others, so the interview resonated with Vera?s Creative Collaboration as well. > On Aug 22, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > > Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. > RL > On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Robert, >> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things I >> especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, and , of >> course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared an article on >> Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century America, who I >> associate with the very kind of New England house where Kozol writes.) All >> of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind >> on the creative process. And the importance of lived experience Who >> couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> The first 12 minutes of th >>> ?e program linked below? >>> are worth watching >>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal >> some >>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>> autographed >>> photo >>> ? of himself? >>> >>> ?after? >>> >>> ?Kozol? >>> was fired >>> ? from his first teaching job? >>> for reading one of >>> ?Hughes'? >>> poems in a high school English class. >>> ? >>> ?Kozol? >>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo >>> ?d? and >>> ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>> >>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>> Georgia Southern University >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>> P. O. Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* >>> Bob Dylan (1964). >> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 15:52:29 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 16:52:29 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place In-Reply-To: <55d8b335.0a00450a.263ad.fffff8ba@mx.google.com> References: <55d8aeda.6861420a.1d35b.ffff9b0f@mx.google.com> <55d8b335.0a00450a.263ad.fffff8ba@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <90288314-9191-4D44-BBA1-49281330B974@gmail.com> Larry, I love this quote from Vygotsky. Inner speech, inner dialog, as I understand it. It reminds me of: How do I know what I am going to say, until I have said it? In the interview, Kozol says that his books begin to write themselves. In an interview some years ago E.L. Doctorow said the same thing. But the books of both authors are years in the making. Vygotsky talks of incubation in his article Imagination and Creativity in Childhood. Henry > On Aug 22, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Lplarry wrote: > > What does it mean to "essay". > Vygotsky wrote: > The relation of thought to word is not a thing but a process, a continual MOVEMENT back and forth from thought to word and from word to thought. In that process the RELATION OF thought to word UNDERGOES changes which themselves may be regarded AS DEVELOPMENT in the functional sense. Thought is not merely expressed in words, it comes INTO EXISTENCE THROUGH THEM. > > ESSAY as art form > ESSAY as thought coming into existence > ESSAY as having "an" experience. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Lplarry" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:18 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". > One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . > > > > From: Robert Lake > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > > Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. > RL > On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Robert, >> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things I >> especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, and , of >> course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared an article on >> Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century America, who I >> associate with the very kind of New England house where Kozol writes.) All >> of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind >> on the creative process. And the importance of lived experience Who >> couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> The first 12 minutes of th >>> ?e program linked below? >>> are worth watching >>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and reveal >> some >>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>> autographed >>> photo >>> ? of himself? >>> >>> ?after? >>> >>> ?Kozol? >>> was fired >>> ? from his first teaching job? >>> for reading one of >>> ?Hughes'? >>> poems in a high school English class. >>> ? >>> ?Kozol? >>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo >>> ?d? and >>> ? he was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>> >>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>> Georgia Southern University >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>> P. O. Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* >>> Bob Dylan (1964). >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 16:09:58 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:09:58 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is both difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be a long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at different ?stages? of development. Henry > On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion > interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All the > main characters are there. > > pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by Anna > Wierzbicka? > mike > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: > >> Lubomir, >> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" to >> perezhivanie. >> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >> "character" of experience. >> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a KEY >> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >> communication/consciousness. >> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around >> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >> >> Hi Larry, >> >> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too >> much of a stretch. >> >> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >> although I am not sure how close it is. >> >> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. >> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, >> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis >> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be >> a required condition for perezhivanie. >> >> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, >> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, >> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and >> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best >> shape about that. >> >> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is >> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the >> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the >> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English >> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can >> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember >> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >> >> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. >> >> Lubomir >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >> >> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the >> "creative" Process of art forms . >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Robert Lake" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >> >> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. >> RL >> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >> >>> Robert, >>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>> ?e program linked below? >>>> are worth watching >>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>> reveal >>> some >>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>> autographed >>>> photo >>>> ? of himself? >>>> >>>> ?after? >>>> >>>> ?Kozol? >>>> was fired >>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>> for reading one of >>>> ?Hughes'? >>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>> ? >>>> ?Kozol? >>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>> >>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>> University >>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>> Box 8144 >>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From s.davis@cqu.edu.au Sat Aug 22 16:35:11 2015 From: s.davis@cqu.edu.au (Susan Davis) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 23:35:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised by fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously talked of a ?chain of experiences?. "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature and environing conditions is involved in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and conflict, aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in this interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious intent emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' experience. ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only is it integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience from other experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) Cheers Sue On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is both >difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be a >long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at different >?stages? of development. >Henry > >> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>the >> main characters are there. >> >> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by Anna >> Wierzbicka? >> mike >> >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: >> >>> Lubomir, >>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" >>>to >>> perezhivanie. >>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>> "character" of experience. >>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>KEY >>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>> communication/consciousness. >>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around >>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>> >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>>too >>> much of a stretch. >>> >>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>> >>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>experience. >>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>emotions, >>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>katarzis >>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>not be >>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>> >>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>something, >>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>something, >>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>and >>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best >>> shape about that. >>> >>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>is >>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>the >>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the >>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>English >>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>can >>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>remember >>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>> >>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>exactly. >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>>the >>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Robert Lake" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>it. >>> RL >>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Robert, >>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>> are worth watching >>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>> reveal >>>> some >>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>> autographed >>>>> photo >>>>> ? of himself? >>>>> >>>>> ?after? >>>>> >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> was fired >>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>> for reading one of >>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>> ? >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>> >>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>> University >>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>> Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: default.xml Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150822/2a7a168c/attachment.rdf From ablunden@mira.net Sat Aug 22 17:21:35 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 10:21:35 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Lubomir, recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between the series of social situations of development that the child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of connections with the development of the will and of personality. Can you fill in any gaps here? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too much of a stretch. > > By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, although I am not sure how close it is. > > Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. > > Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best shape about that. > > Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. > > Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. > > Lubomir > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". > One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Robert Lake" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. > RL > On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Robert, >> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>> >> wrote: >>> Hi Everyone, >>> The first 12 minutes of th >>> ?e program linked below? >>> are worth watching >>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>> reveal >> some >>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>> autographed >>> photo >>> ? of himself? >>> >>> ?after? >>> >>> ?Kozol? >>> was fired >>> ? from his first teaching job? >>> for reading one of >>> ?Hughes'? >>> poems in a high school English class. >>> ? >>> ?Kozol? >>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>> >>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>> University >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>> Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >> >> > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 17:38:14 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:38:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55d9160f.a50e460a.93970.1708@mx.google.com> Sue, To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration. I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality". Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic experiences are: *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went before and what comes after. *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what shall be organized into the "developing experience" * we drift *we yield, evade, compromise *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and concludings *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an" experience. * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction, proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one another *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be taken as norms of ALL experience. >From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience. Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its OWN CONSUMMATION. I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject matter" that is undergone. Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional? I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an anesthetic character. This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an" experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of lives of virtue. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Susan Davis" Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 4:36 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised by fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously talked of a ?chain of experiences?. "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature and environing conditions is involved in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and conflict, aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in this interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious intent emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' experience. ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only is it integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience from other experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) Cheers Sue On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is both >difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be a >long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at different >?stages? of development. >Henry > >> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>the >> main characters are there. >> >> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by Anna >> Wierzbicka? >> mike >> >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: >> >>> Lubomir, >>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" >>>to >>> perezhivanie. >>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>> "character" of experience. >>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>KEY >>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>> communication/consciousness. >>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around >>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>> >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>>too >>> much of a stretch. >>> >>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>> >>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>experience. >>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>emotions, >>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>katarzis >>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>not be >>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>> >>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>something, >>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>something, >>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>and >>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best >>> shape about that. >>> >>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>is >>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>the >>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the >>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>English >>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>can >>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>remember >>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>> >>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>exactly. >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>>the >>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Robert Lake" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>it. >>> RL >>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Robert, >>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>> are worth watching >>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>> reveal >>>> some >>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>> autographed >>>>> photo >>>>> ? of himself? >>>>> >>>>> ?after? >>>>> >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> was fired >>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>> for reading one of >>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>> ? >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>> >>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>> University >>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>> Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > From s.davis@cqu.edu.au Sat Aug 22 17:43:17 2015 From: s.davis@cqu.edu.au (Susan Davis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 00:43:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> Message-ID: There would also appear to be some similar features to be found in discussion around perezhivanie and Csikszentmihalyi?s description of ?flow? experiences. These are the experiences he identified as being common to the activity of creative people when they experience a form of intense engagement or ?flow?. He has elsewhere discussed how this not a state confined for arts/creative activity: "? it often involved painful, risky, difficult activities that stretched the person?s capacity and involved an element of novelty and discovery. This optimal experience is what I have called flow, because many of the respondents described the feeling when things were going well as an almost automatic, effortless, yet highly focused state of consciousness. (Csikszentmihalyi, 1996:110) Csikszentmihalyi, M. (1996). Creativity: Flow and the Psychology of Discovery and Invention. New York: HarperPerennial Other thoughts on this one? Sue On 23/08/2015 9:35 am, "Susan Davis" wrote: >Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of >?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised by >fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as >perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests >elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? > >Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and >then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental >trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she >talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously >talked of a ?chain of experiences?. > > >"Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature >and environing conditions is involved >in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and >conflict, >aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in this >interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious >intent >emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are >experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' >experience. >?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the >material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only is >it >integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience from >other >experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own >individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." >(Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) > > >Cheers >Sue > >On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >>Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is both >>difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >>obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be a >>long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at different >>?stages? of development. >>Henry >> >>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>>the >>> main characters are there. >>> >>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by >>>Anna >>> Wierzbicka? >>> mike >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>>> Lubomir, >>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" >>>>to >>>> perezhivanie. >>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>>> "character" of experience. >>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>>KEY >>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>>> communication/consciousness. >>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around >>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>>> >>>> Hi Larry, >>>> >>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>>>too >>>> much of a stretch. >>>> >>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root >>>>for >>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>> >>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>>experience. >>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>>emotions, >>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>>katarzis >>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>>not be >>>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>>something, >>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>>something, >>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>>and >>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my >>>>best >>>> shape about that. >>>> >>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>>is >>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>>the >>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the >>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>>English >>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>>can >>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>>remember >>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>>> >>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>>exactly. >>>> >>>> Lubomir >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>> >>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>>>the >>>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>> >>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>>it. >>>> RL >>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Robert, >>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house >>>>>where >>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John >>>>>Steiner?s >>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>> reveal >>>>> some >>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>> autographed >>>>>> photo >>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>> >>>>>> ?after? >>>>>> >>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>> was fired >>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>> ? >>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>> University >>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default[1].xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: default[1].xml Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150823/7293628d/attachment.rdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default[2].xml Type: application/xml Size: 3222 bytes Desc: default[2].xml Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150823/7293628d/attachment-0001.rdf From lspopov@bgsu.edu Sat Aug 22 17:49:55 2015 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 00:49:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> References: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy, The ideas of "building" human will and personality through perezhivanie is in line with the mainstream historical materialist psychology. Actually this is the activity principle in action. Perezhevanie happens in the process of activity. The idea that crises mark the passage between social situations and developmental stages is also a corner stone. However, I cannot fill more details--this is developmental psychology. My area is environmental psychology/person-environment interactions. Best, Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 8:22 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again Lubomir, recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between the series of social situations of development that the child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of connections with the development of the will and of personality. Can you fill in any gaps here? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is too much of a stretch. > > By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, although I am not sure how close it is. > > Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. > > Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best shape about that. > > Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. > > Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost exactly. > > Lubomir > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of > Lplarry > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". > One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into the "creative" Process of art forms . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Robert Lake" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place > > Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. > RL > On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Robert, >> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house >> where Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John >> Steiner?s Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the >> importance of lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>> >> wrote: >>> Hi Everyone, >>> The first 12 minutes of th >>> ?e program linked below? >>> are worth watching >>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>> reveal >> some >>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>> autographed >>> photo >>> ? of himself? >>> >>> ?after? >>> >>> ?Kozol? >>> was fired >>> ? from his first teaching job? >>> for reading one of >>> ?Hughes'? >>> poems in a high school English class. >>> ? >>> ?Kozol? >>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>> >>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>> University >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>> Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:04:28 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:04:28 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: <55d9160f.a50e460a.93970.1708@mx.google.com> References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> <55d9160f.a50e460a.93970.1708@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sue and Larry, Nice! ?Life trajectory?, as Sue puts it, so much better than ?stage of development?. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of ?resilence? in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending, undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts. It?s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month?s Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and Vygotsky. Henry > On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry wrote: > > Sue, > To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration. > I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality". > > Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic experiences are: > *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went before and what comes after. > *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what shall be organized into the "developing experience" > * we drift > *we yield, evade, compromise > *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and concludings > *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on > * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an" experience. > * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction, proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one another > *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be taken as norms of ALL experience. >> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience. > > Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its OWN CONSUMMATION. > > I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject matter" that is undergone. > > Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional? > I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an anesthetic character. > This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an" experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of lives of virtue. > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Susan Davis" > Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 4:36 PM > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again > > Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of > ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised by > fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as > perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests > elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? > > Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and > then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental > trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she > talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously > talked of a ?chain of experiences?. > > > "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature > and environing conditions is involved > in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and conflict, > aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in this > interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious > intent > emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are > experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' > experience. > ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the > material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only is > it > integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience from > other > experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own > individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." > (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) > > > Cheers > Sue > > On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is both >> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >> obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be a >> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at different >> ?stages? of development. >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>> the >>> main characters are there. >>> >>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by Anna >>> Wierzbicka? >>> mike >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>>> Lubomir, >>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" >>>> to >>>> perezhivanie. >>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>>> "character" of experience. >>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>> KEY >>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>>> communication/consciousness. >>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around >>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>>> >>>> Hi Larry, >>>> >>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>>> too >>>> much of a stretch. >>>> >>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>> >>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>> experience. >>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>> emotions, >>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>> katarzis >>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>> not be >>>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>> something, >>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>> something, >>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>> and >>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best >>>> shape about that. >>>> >>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>> is >>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>> the >>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the >>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>> English >>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>> can >>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>> remember >>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>>> >>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>> exactly. >>>> >>>> Lubomir >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>> >>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>>> the >>>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>> >>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>> it. >>>> RL >>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Robert, >>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>> reveal >>>>> some >>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>> autographed >>>>>> photo >>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>> >>>>>> ?after? >>>>>> >>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>> was fired >>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>> ? >>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>> University >>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> > From s.davis@cqu.edu.au Sat Aug 22 18:08:57 2015 From: s.davis@cqu.edu.au (Susan Davis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 01:08:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> References: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy If you haven?t yet you might want to take a look at Michael Michell?s PhD thesis ?Academic engagement and agency in multilingual middle year classrooms? as I think he may have done some of that work. I just found it online, https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/research/bitstream/handle/10453/21824/01front.p df?sequence=1 On 23/08/2015 10:21 am, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >Lubomir, >recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on >perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of >perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of >catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. >Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to >use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of >reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This >puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the >succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between >the series of social situations of development that the >child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific >qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links >that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, >Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary >forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of >connections with the development of the will and of personality. >Can you fill in any gaps here? >Andy >------------------------------------------------------------ >*Andy Blunden* >http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >> Hi Larry, >> >> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>too much of a stretch. >> >> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>although I am not sure how close it is. >> >> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings >>and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I >>would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The >>study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme >>case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. >> >> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level >>of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different >>situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am >>not in my best shape about that. >> >> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, >>than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in >>English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the >>Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like >>that. >> >> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>exactly. >> >> Lubomir >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>[mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>Lplarry >> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >> >> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>the "creative" Process of art forms . >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Robert Lake" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >> >> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. >> RL >> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >> >>> Robert, >>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Everyone, >>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>> ?e program linked below? >>>> are worth watching >>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>> reveal >>> some >>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>> autographed >>>> photo >>>> ? of himself? >>>> >>>> ?after? >>>> >>>> ?Kozol? >>>> was fired >>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>> for reading one of >>>> ?Hughes'? >>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>> ? >>>> ?Kozol? >>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>> >>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>> University >>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>> Box 8144 >>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>> >>> >> >> > From s.davis@cqu.edu.au Sat Aug 22 18:12:22 2015 From: s.davis@cqu.edu.au (Susan Davis) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 01:12:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> <55d9160f.a50e460a.93970.1708@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Final post for now? Csikszentmihalyi?s work with adolescents is also very interesting in terms of thinking about ?flow? experiences and relationship to motivation, life trajectories and so on. http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED395261 https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Being_Adolescent.html?id=8SKKPXimP0 AC&redir_esc=y https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UKcKqT4rgRUC&source=gbs_similarbooks On 23/08/2015 11:04 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >Sue and Larry, >Nice! ?Life trajectory?, as Sue puts it, so much better than ?stage of >development?. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of ?resilence? >in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending, >undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts. >It?s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month?s >Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi >Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the >streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black >body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his >light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite >the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and >Vygotsky. >Henry > >> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry wrote: >> >> Sue, >> To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration. >> I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of >>whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality". >> >> Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences >>which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic >>experiences are: >> *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went >>before and what comes after. >> *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what >>shall be organized into the "developing experience" >> * we drift >> *we yield, evade, compromise >> *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and >>concludings >> *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on >> * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an" >>experience. >> * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose >>succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no >>particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction, >>proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one >>another >> *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be >>taken as norms of ALL experience. >>> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its >>>qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal >>>anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in >>>opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience. >> >> Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's >>concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue >>and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics >>belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its >>OWN CONSUMMATION. >> >> I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject >>matter" that is undergone. >> >> Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads >>to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional? >> I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in >>a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an >>anesthetic character. >> This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our >>lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an" >>experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of >>lives of virtue. >> Larry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Susan Davis" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 4:36 PM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again >> >> Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of >> ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised >>by >> fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as >> perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests >> elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? >> >> Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and >> then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental >> trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she >> talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously >> talked of a ?chain of experiences?. >> >> >> "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature >> and environing conditions is involved >> in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and >>conflict, >> aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in >>this >> interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious >> intent >> emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are >> experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' >> experience. >> ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the >> material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only >>is >> it >> integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience >>from >> other >> experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own >> individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." >> (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) >> >> >> Cheers >> Sue >> >> On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >> >>> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is >>>both >>> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >>> obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be >>>a >>> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at >>>different >>> ?stages? of development. >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >>>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>>> the >>>> main characters are there. >>>> >>>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by >>>>Anna >>>> Wierzbicka? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lubomir, >>>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning >>>>>"again" >>>>> to >>>>> perezhivanie. >>>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>>>> "character" of experience. >>>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>>> KEY >>>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>>>> communication/consciousness. >>>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling >>>>>around >>>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>>>> >>>>> Hi Larry, >>>>> >>>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It >>>>>is >>>>> too >>>>> much of a stretch. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root >>>>>for >>>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>>> >>>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>>> experience. >>>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>>> emotions, >>>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>>> katarzis >>>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>>> not be >>>>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>>> >>>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>>> something, >>>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>>> something, >>>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>>> and >>>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my >>>>>best >>>>> shape about that. >>>>> >>>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>>> is >>>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>>> the >>>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>>>>the >>>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>>> English >>>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>>> can >>>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>>> remember >>>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>>>> >>>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>>> exactly. >>>>> >>>>> Lubomir >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>>>>Lplarry >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>> >>>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door >>>>>into >>>>> the >>>>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>>> it. >>>>> RL >>>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Robert, >>>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! >>>>>>Things >>>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just >>>>>>shared >>>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house >>>>>>where >>>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John >>>>>>Steiner?s >>>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>>> reveal >>>>>> some >>>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>>> autographed >>>>>>> photo >>>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?after? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>> was fired >>>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>>> University >>>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:14:05 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:14:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Perezhivanie, again References: Message-ID: <77094511-6009-4BF5-9A02-0421324649D4@gmail.com> Sorry, but I wanted to add to my impression of the Ta-Nahisi Coates essay that the author is telling his son to act both honorably and beautifully in confronting racism. An obvious nod to Dewey on undergoing an experience, in spirit, if not in name. Henry > Begin forwarded message: > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again > From: HENRY SHONERD > Date: August 22, 2015 at 7:04:28 PM MDT > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sue and Larry, > Nice! ?Life trajectory?, as Sue puts it, so much better than ?stage of development?. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of ?resilence? in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending, undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts. It?s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month?s Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and Vygotsky. > Henry > >> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry wrote: >> >> Sue, >> To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration. >> I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality". >> >> Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic experiences are: >> *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went before and what comes after. >> *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what shall be organized into the "developing experience" >> * we drift >> *we yield, evade, compromise >> *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and concludings >> *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on >> * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an" experience. >> * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction, proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one another >> *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be taken as norms of ALL experience. >>> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience. >> >> Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its OWN CONSUMMATION. >> >> I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject matter" that is undergone. >> >> Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional? >> I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an anesthetic character. >> This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an" experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of lives of virtue. >> Larry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Susan Davis" >> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 4:36 PM >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again >> >> Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of >> ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised by >> fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as >> perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests >> elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? >> >> Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and >> then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental >> trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she >> talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously >> talked of a ?chain of experiences?. >> >> >> "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature >> and environing conditions is involved >> in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and conflict, >> aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in this >> interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious >> intent >> emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are >> experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' >> experience. >> ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the >> material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only is >> it >> integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience from >> other >> experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own >> individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." >> (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) >> >> >> Cheers >> Sue >> >> On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >> >>> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is both >>> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >>> obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be a >>> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at different >>> ?stages? of development. >>> Henry >>> >>>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >>>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>>> the >>>> main characters are there. >>>> >>>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by Anna >>>> Wierzbicka? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry wrote: >>>> >>>>> Lubomir, >>>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning "again" >>>>> to >>>>> perezhivanie. >>>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>>>> "character" of experience. >>>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>>> KEY >>>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>>>> communication/consciousness. >>>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling around >>>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>>>> >>>>> Hi Larry, >>>>> >>>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>>>> too >>>>> much of a stretch. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>>> >>>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>>> experience. >>>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>>> emotions, >>>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>>> katarzis >>>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>>> not be >>>>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>>> >>>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>>> something, >>>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>>> something, >>>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>>> and >>>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my best >>>>> shape about that. >>>>> >>>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>>> is >>>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>>> the >>>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of the >>>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>>> English >>>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>>> can >>>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>>> remember >>>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>>>> >>>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>>> exactly. >>>>> >>>>> Lubomir >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Lplarry >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>> >>>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>>>> the >>>>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>> >>>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>>> it. >>>>> RL >>>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Robert, >>>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>>> Henry >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>>> reveal >>>>>> some >>>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>>> autographed >>>>>>> photo >>>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?after? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>> was fired >>>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>>> University >>>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Aug 22 18:24:48 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:24:48 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Message-ID: <55D920E0.1020307@mira.net> Link doesn't work, Sue. andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/08/2015 11:08 AM, Susan Davis wrote: > Andy > If you haven?t yet you might want to take a look at Michael Michell?s PhD > thesis ?Academic engagement and agency in multilingual middle year > classrooms? as I think he may have done some of that work. > > I just found it online, > https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/research/bitstream/handle/10453/21824/01front.p > df?sequence=1 > > > On 23/08/2015 10:21 am, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > >> Lubomir, >> recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on >> perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of >> perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of >> catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. >> Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to >> use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of >> reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This >> puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the >> succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between >> the series of social situations of development that the >> child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific >> qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links >> that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, >> Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary >> forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of >> connections with the development of the will and of personality. >> Can you fill in any gaps here? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>> too much of a stretch. >>> >>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>> >>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>> experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings >>> and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I >>> would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The >>> study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme >>> case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. >>> >>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>> something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level >>> of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different >>> situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am >>> not in my best shape about that. >>> >>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>> is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>> the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>> the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>> English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, >>> than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in >>> English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the >>> Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like >>> that. >>> >>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>> exactly. >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>> Lplarry >>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>> the "creative" Process of art forms . >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Robert Lake" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. >>> RL >>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Robert, >>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>> are worth watching >>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>> reveal >>>> some >>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>> autographed >>>>> photo >>>>> ? of himself? >>>>> >>>>> ?after? >>>>> >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> was fired >>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>> for reading one of >>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>> ? >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>> >>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>> University >>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>> Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>> >>> From ablunden@mira.net Sat Aug 22 18:25:40 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:25:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Message-ID: <55D92114.3050503@mira.net> Ooops! It works with the df?sequence=1 Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/08/2015 11:08 AM, Susan Davis wrote: > Andy > If you haven?t yet you might want to take a look at Michael Michell?s PhD > thesis ?Academic engagement and agency in multilingual middle year > classrooms? as I think he may have done some of that work. > > I just found it online, > https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/research/bitstream/handle/10453/21824/01front.p > df?sequence=1 > > > On 23/08/2015 10:21 am, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > >> Lubomir, >> recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on >> perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of >> perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of >> catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. >> Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to >> use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of >> reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This >> puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the >> succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between >> the series of social situations of development that the >> child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific >> qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links >> that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, >> Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary >> forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of >> connections with the development of the will and of personality. >> Can you fill in any gaps here? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>> too much of a stretch. >>> >>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>> >>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>> experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings >>> and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I >>> would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The >>> study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme >>> case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. >>> >>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>> something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level >>> of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different >>> situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am >>> not in my best shape about that. >>> >>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>> is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>> the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>> the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>> English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, >>> than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in >>> English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the >>> Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like >>> that. >>> >>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>> exactly. >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>> Lplarry >>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>> the "creative" Process of art forms . >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Robert Lake" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. >>> RL >>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Robert, >>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>> are worth watching >>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>> reveal >>>> some >>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>> autographed >>>>> photo >>>>> ? of himself? >>>>> >>>>> ?after? >>>>> >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> was fired >>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>> for reading one of >>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>> ? >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>> >>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>> University >>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>> Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>> >>> From ablunden@mira.net Sat Aug 22 18:32:29 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 11:32:29 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> <55d9160f.a50e460a.93970.1708@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55D922AD.3000904@mira.net> I can see that the "working over" of what one has done, the catharsis part of perezhivanie, is intuitively very much like "being in the flow of" something you're doing right now, a kind of out-of-body experience, I think. This looks interesting, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/08/2015 11:12 AM, Susan Davis wrote: > Final post for now? Csikszentmihalyi?s work with adolescents is also very > interesting in terms of thinking about ?flow? experiences and relationship > to motivation, life trajectories and so on. > > http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED395261 > https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Being_Adolescent.html?id=8SKKPXimP0 > AC&redir_esc=y > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UKcKqT4rgRUC&source=gbs_similarbooks > > On 23/08/2015 11:04 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Sue and Larry, >> Nice! ?Life trajectory?, as Sue puts it, so much better than ?stage of >> development?. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of ?resilence? >> in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending, >> undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts. >> It?s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month?s >> Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi >> Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the >> streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black >> body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his >> light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite >> the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and >> Vygotsky. >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>> Sue, >>> To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration. >>> I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of >>> whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality". >>> >>> Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences >>> which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic >>> experiences are: >>> *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went >>> before and what comes after. >>> *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what >>> shall be organized into the "developing experience" >>> * we drift >>> *we yield, evade, compromise >>> *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and >>> concludings >>> *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on >>> * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an" >>> experience. >>> * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose >>> succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no >>> particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction, >>> proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one >>> another >>> *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be >>> taken as norms of ALL experience. >>>> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its >>>> qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal >>>> anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in >>>> opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience. >>> Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's >>> concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue >>> and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics >>> belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its >>> OWN CONSUMMATION. >>> >>> I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject >>> matter" that is undergone. >>> >>> Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads >>> to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional? >>> I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in >>> a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an >>> anesthetic character. >>> This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our >>> lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an" >>> experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of >>> lives of virtue. >>> Larry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Susan Davis" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 4:36 PM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again >>> >>> Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of >>> ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised >>> by >>> fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as >>> perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests >>> elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? >>> >>> Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and >>> then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental >>> trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she >>> talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously >>> talked of a ?chain of experiences?. >>> >>> >>> "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature >>> and environing conditions is involved >>> in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and >>> conflict, >>> aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in >>> this >>> interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious >>> intent >>> emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are >>> experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' >>> experience. >>> ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the >>> material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only >>> is >>> it >>> integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience >>> from >>> other >>> experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own >>> individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." >>> (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> Sue >>> >>> On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is >>>> both >>>> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >>>> obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be >>>> a >>>> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at >>>> different >>>> ?stages? of development. >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >>>>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>>>> the >>>>> main characters are there. >>>>> >>>>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by >>>>> Anna >>>>> Wierzbicka? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lubomir, >>>>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning >>>>>> "again" >>>>>> to >>>>>> perezhivanie. >>>>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>>>>> "character" of experience. >>>>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>>>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>>>> KEY >>>>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>>>>> communication/consciousness. >>>>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling >>>>>> around >>>>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It >>>>>> is >>>>>> too >>>>>> much of a stretch. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root >>>>>> for >>>>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>>>> experience. >>>>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>>>> emotions, >>>>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>>>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>>>> katarzis >>>>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>>>> not be >>>>>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>>>> something, >>>>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>>>> something, >>>>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>>>> and >>>>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my >>>>>> best >>>>>> shape about that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>>>> is >>>>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>>>> the >>>>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>>>>> the >>>>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>>>> English >>>>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>>>> can >>>>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>>>> remember >>>>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>>>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>>>> exactly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lubomir >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Lplarry >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>>> >>>>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door >>>>>> into >>>>>> the >>>>>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>>>> it. >>>>>> RL >>>>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Robert, >>>>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! >>>>>>> Things >>>>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just >>>>>>> shared >>>>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house >>>>>>> where >>>>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John >>>>>>> Steiner?s >>>>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>>>> reveal >>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>>>> autographed >>>>>>>> photo >>>>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?after? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>>> was fired >>>>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>>>> University >>>>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >> > > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:33:18 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:33:18 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55d8c4be.ca1d450a.da7e7.fffff9c2@mx.google.com> <7070AAA9-C98B-4894-9DFB-68E19D50159C@gmail.com> <55d9160f.a50e460a.93970.1708@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Great, Sue! Sticking with the narrative of the plight of the African American within this Pere thread, Csikszentmihalyi?s flow is very much evident in the music of Black people in this country, most recently hip hop. One more musical crystallization available to ethical and aesthetic analysis. I would like to add that facing history here is not just the work of individuals, Black or not. Ta-Nahisi, at the outset, counsels loyalty and patience. Henry P.S. Last post?for now! :) > On Aug 22, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Susan Davis wrote: > > Final post for now? Csikszentmihalyi?s work with adolescents is also very > interesting in terms of thinking about ?flow? experiences and relationship > to motivation, life trajectories and so on. > > http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED395261 > https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Being_Adolescent.html?id=8SKKPXimP0 > AC&redir_esc=y > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UKcKqT4rgRUC&source=gbs_similarbooks > > On 23/08/2015 11:04 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: > >> Sue and Larry, >> Nice! ?Life trajectory?, as Sue puts it, so much better than ?stage of >> development?. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of ?resilence? >> in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending, >> undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts. >> It?s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month?s >> Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi >> Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the >> streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black >> body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his >> light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite >> the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and >> Vygotsky. >> Henry >> >>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry wrote: >>> >>> Sue, >>> To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration. >>> I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of >>> whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality". >>> >>> Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences >>> which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic >>> experiences are: >>> *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went >>> before and what comes after. >>> *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what >>> shall be organized into the "developing experience" >>> * we drift >>> *we yield, evade, compromise >>> *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and >>> concludings >>> *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on >>> * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an" >>> experience. >>> * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose >>> succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no >>> particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction, >>> proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one >>> another >>> *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be >>> taken as norms of ALL experience. >>>> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its >>>> qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal >>>> anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in >>>> opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience. >>> >>> Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's >>> concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue >>> and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics >>> belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its >>> OWN CONSUMMATION. >>> >>> I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject >>> matter" that is undergone. >>> >>> Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads >>> to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional? >>> I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in >>> a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an >>> anesthetic character. >>> This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our >>> lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an" >>> experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of >>> lives of virtue. >>> Larry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Susan Davis" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 4:36 PM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again >>> >>> Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey?s concept of >>> ?art as experience?- but this type of experience is also characterised >>> by >>> fulfilment and integration? although that may not be the same as >>> perezhivanie? see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests >>> elements of opit (work/life experience) as well? >>> >>> Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and >>> then may impact upon and gain significance in a person?s developmental >>> trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she >>> talked about a ?stream of experiences?. I think Beth F has previously >>> talked of a ?chain of experiences?. >>> >>> >>> "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature >>> and environing conditions is involved >>> in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and >>> conflict, >>> aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in >>> this >>> interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious >>> intent >>> emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are >>> experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ?an' >>> experience. >>> ?. In contrast with such experience,we have ?an' experience when the >>> material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only >>> is >>> it >>> integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience >>> from >>> other >>> experiences?Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own >>> individualizing quality and self-sufficiency." >>> (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37) >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> Sue >>> >>> On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is >>>> both >>>> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes, >>>> obliterates. I don?t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be >>>> a >>>> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at >>>> different >>>> ?stages? of development. >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion >>>>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All >>>>> the >>>>> main characters are there. >>>>> >>>>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by >>>>> Anna >>>>> Wierzbicka? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lubomir, >>>>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning >>>>>> "again" >>>>>> to >>>>>> perezhivanie. >>>>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the >>>>>> "character" of experience. >>>>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also >>>>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a >>>>>> KEY >>>>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of >>>>>> communication/consciousness. >>>>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling >>>>>> around >>>>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" >>>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:51 AM >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Perezhivanie, again >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Larry, >>>>>> >>>>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It >>>>>> is >>>>>> too >>>>>> much of a stretch. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root >>>>>> for >>>>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>>>> experience. >>>>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and >>>>>> emotions, >>>>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say >>>>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of >>>>>> katarzis >>>>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should >>>>>> not be >>>>>> a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>>>> something, >>>>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of >>>>>> something, >>>>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations >>>>>> and >>>>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my >>>>>> best >>>>>> shape about that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>>>> is >>>>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>>>> the >>>>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>>>>> the >>>>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>>>> English >>>>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we >>>>>> can >>>>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I >>>>>> remember >>>>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national >>>>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>>>> exactly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lubomir >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Lplarry >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>>> >>>>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door >>>>>> into >>>>>> the >>>>>> "creative" Process of art forms . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching >>>>>> it. >>>>>> RL >>>>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Robert, >>>>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! >>>>>>> Things >>>>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just >>>>>>> shared >>>>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house >>>>>>> where >>>>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John >>>>>>> Steiner?s >>>>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>>>> reveal >>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>>>> autographed >>>>>>>> photo >>>>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?after? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>>> was fired >>>>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>>>> ? >>>>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>>>> University >>>>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Aug 22 18:35:30 2015 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 01:35:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Message-ID: Sue's link leads to the abstract of Michell's dissertation. The whole text is at this address: Martin On Aug 22, 2015, at 8:08 PM, Susan Davis wrote: > Andy > If you haven?t yet you might want to take a look at Michael Michell?s PhD > thesis ?Academic engagement and agency in multilingual middle year > classrooms? as I think he may have done some of that work. > > I just found it online, > https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/research/bitstream/handle/10453/21824/01front.p > df?sequence=1 > > > On 23/08/2015 10:21 am, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > >> Lubomir, >> recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on >> perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of >> perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of >> catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. >> Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to >> use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of >> reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This >> puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the >> succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between >> the series of social situations of development that the >> child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific >> qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links >> that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, >> Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary >> forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of >> connections with the development of the will and of personality. >> Can you fill in any gaps here? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>> Hi Larry, >>> >>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>> too much of a stretch. >>> >>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>> >>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>> experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings >>> and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I >>> would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The >>> study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme >>> case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. >>> >>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>> something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level >>> of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different >>> situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am >>> not in my best shape about that. >>> >>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>> is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>> the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>> the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>> English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, >>> than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in >>> English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the >>> Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like >>> that. >>> >>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>> exactly. >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>> Lplarry >>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>> the "creative" Process of art forms . >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Robert Lake" >>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>> >>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. >>> RL >>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>> >>>> Robert, >>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>> Henry >>>> >>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>> are worth watching >>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>> reveal >>>> some >>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>> autographed >>>>> photo >>>>> ? of himself? >>>>> >>>>> ?after? >>>>> >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> was fired >>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>> for reading one of >>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>> ? >>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>> >>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>> University >>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>> Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Aug 22 22:54:44 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:54:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again In-Reply-To: References: <55D9120F.9080505@mira.net> Message-ID: <55D96024.5040602@mira.net> Thank you Martin for that "improved" link. :) In section 2.2.4 (not2.2.2.4), on Character and Personality, Michael suggests that Vygotsky's writings on "defectology" should be taken as more widely applicable, and provides a (to me) interesting observation on "character": "character can be defined as a dispositional psychological system of personal striving, or agency ... character then is a psychological outcome of striving behaviours and practices responding to goal stimuli formed in personally challenging environments. As such, character is also is a situated expression of individual personality, expressed through an acquired ?style? of adaption and struggle." Unfortunately, no discoveries of perezhivanie in Volume 2 on this topic, though it would seem that there ought to be some there. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 23/08/2015 11:35 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Sue's link leads to the abstract of Michell's dissertation. The whole text is at this address: > > > > Martin > > On Aug 22, 2015, at 8:08 PM, Susan Davis wrote: > >> Andy >> If you haven?t yet you might want to take a look at Michael Michell?s PhD >> thesis ?Academic engagement and agency in multilingual middle year >> classrooms? as I think he may have done some of that work. >> >> I just found it online, >> https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/research/bitstream/handle/10453/21824/01front.p >> df?sequence=1 >> >> >> On 23/08/2015 10:21 am, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >> >>> Lubomir, >>> recently I have been studying Vasilyuk's 1984/1988 book on >>> perezhivanie, where he has a typology of 4 types of >>> perezhivanie, based mainly on the extent and depth of >>> catharsis required by the traumatic past experience. >>> Vasilyuk says that the will is the central neoformation (to >>> use Vygotsky's novel term) which does the creative work of >>> reconstructing the personality through perezhivanija. This >>> puts me in mind of Vygotsky's claim that it is through the >>> succession of childhood crises that mark the passage between >>> the series of social situations of development that the >>> child's will is developed, each crisis entailing specific >>> qualities of will. This to me suggests a number of links >>> that I am not aware of having been filled out. Beth Ferholt, >>> Monica Nilsson and others have done work on the elementary >>> forms of perezhivanie in childhood, but I do not know of >>> connections with the development of the will and of personality. >>> Can you fill in any gaps here? >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> On 23/08/2015 3:49 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >>>> Hi Larry, >>>> >>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It is >>>> too much of a stretch. >>>> >>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root for >>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of >>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation, >>>> although I am not sure how close it is. >>>> >>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life >>>> experience. It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings >>>> and emotions, as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I >>>> would not say reflection because it is a much stronger category). The >>>> study of katarzis can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme >>>> case and should not be a required condition for perezhivanie. >>>> >>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to >>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming >>>> something, passing through something in space, indicating an extra level >>>> of something, and so on. It means too many different things in different >>>> situations and words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am >>>> not in my best shape about that. >>>> >>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it >>>> is very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides, >>>> the translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of >>>> the Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for >>>> English word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, >>>> than we can just use it as it is. There are many such examples in >>>> English. I remember that the mas media do not translate the word for the >>>> Afgan national assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like >>>> that. >>>> >>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life >>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost >>>> exactly. >>>> >>>> Lubomir >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of >>>> Lplarry >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>> >>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience". >>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which opens a door into >>>> the "creative" Process of art forms . >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Robert Lake" >>>> Sent: ?2015-?08-?22 10:10 AM >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place >>>> >>>> Thanks Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching it. >>>> RL >>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Robert, >>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you! Things >>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method, >>>>> and , of course, the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just shared >>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century >>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house where >>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John Steiner?s >>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of >>>>> lived experience Who couldn?t love the guy? And they fired him! >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hi Everyone, >>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th >>>>>> ?e program linked below? >>>>>> are worth watching >>>>>> ? because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and >>>>>> reveal >>>>> some >>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write. >>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an >>>>>> autographed >>>>>> photo >>>>>> ? of himself? >>>>>> >>>>>> ?after? >>>>>> >>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>> was fired >>>>>> ? from his first teaching job? >>>>>> for reading one of >>>>>> ?Hughes'? >>>>>> poems in a high school English class. >>>>>> ? >>>>>> ?Kozol? >>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ?d? and ? he >>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew??* >>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books. >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern >>>>>> University >>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. >>>>>> Box 8144 >>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964). >>>>> >>>> >> > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 23 07:51:15 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 00:51:15 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] help with Russian Message-ID: <55D9DDE3.6050500@mira.net> Can someone tell me Russian word(s) being translated into English as "lived-world" in Vasilyuk's "Psychology of Perezhivanie," please? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 24 04:09:37 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:09:37 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: <55D9DDE3.6050500@mira.net> References: <55D9DDE3.6050500@mira.net> Message-ID: <55DAFB71.9000708@mira.net> Thanks to Victor Kaptelinin I have my answer. Thank you, Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 24/08/2015 12:51 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Can someone tell me Russian word(s) being translated into > English as "lived-world" in Vasilyuk's "Psychology of > Perezhivanie," please? > Andy From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 24 06:14:49 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 06:14:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: <55DAFB71.9000708@mira.net> References: <55D9DDE3.6050500@mira.net> <55DAFB71.9000708@mira.net> Message-ID: What is the answer, Andy? Mike On Monday, August 24, 2015, Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks to Victor Kaptelinin I have my answer. > Thank you, > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 24/08/2015 12:51 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Can someone tell me Russian word(s) being translated into English as >> "lived-world" in Vasilyuk's "Psychology of Perezhivanie," please? >> Andy >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 24 06:39:01 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:39:01 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: help with Russian In-Reply-To: References: <55D9DDE3.6050500@mira.net> <55DAFB71.9000708@mira.net> Message-ID: <55DB1E75.5070702@mira.net> ????????????(/zhiznniyi mir/), literally ?life world.? ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 24/08/2015 11:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > What is the answer, Andy? > Mike > > On Monday, August 24, 2015, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Thanks to Victor Kaptelinin I have my answer. >> Thank you, >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> On 24/08/2015 12:51 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Can someone tell me Russian word(s) being translated into English as >>> "lived-world" in Vasilyuk's "Psychology of Perezhivanie," please? >>> Andy >>> >> From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 24 20:47:29 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:47:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Director, Center for Young Children, University of Maryland In-Reply-To: <96891AB5F78A964EA8DD7FCB6227C3A60A17A8E5@OITMX1005.AD.UMD.EDU> References: <96891AB5F78A964EA8DD7FCB6227C3A60A17A8E5@OITMX1005.AD.UMD.EDU> Message-ID: FYI Mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Nathan A. Fox* Date: Monday, August 24, 2015 Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Director, Center for Young Children, University of Maryland To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" The Department of Human Development and Quantitative Methodology (HDQM), in the College of Education at the University of Maryland, invites applications for the position of Director for the Center for Young Children (CYC). The CYC Director is a 12-month, exempt staff position. The Center for Young Children is a laboratory school established in 1948 with a threefold mission: educating preschool and kindergarten children, providing professional development opportunities for preservice and in-service teachers and supporting research on children?s development and learning. The CYC Director will be expected to: provide leadership, expertise, and vision in the ongoing development and administration of the CYC (curriculum, licensing and accreditation, staffing, budgeting, etc.); facilitate school, community, and teacher education program partnerships; manage public relations, communications, and marketing; collaborate with county school system personnel regarding the special education needs of young children; support research and grant projects undertaken by UMD faculty, as well as actively facilitate communication between teachers and staff at the CYC and faculty and students conducting research at the CYC; collaborate with the Early Childhood/Early Childhood Special Education (EC/ECSE) faculty to facilitate the integration of the CYC into the EC/ECSE teacher education program; and develop, oversee and implement a five-year strategic plan. *Minimum Qualifications* ? An earned doctorate in Early Childhood Education, Early Childhood Special Education, Human Development, Child Development or a related field ? Two years teaching experience at the early childhood level (birth through grade three) ? Proven leadership skills and experience in a school administrative role in accordance with NAEYC Criteria for Program Administrators ? Knowledge of Individualized Family Service Plans (IFSP)/Individualized Education Plans (IEP) ? Evidence of exemplary interpersonal and community involvement skills ? Evidence of excellent oral and written communication skills ? Evidence of the ability to provide management of the center The University of Maryland, College Park, actively subscribes to a policy of equal employment opportunity, and will not discriminate against any employee or applicant because of race, age, sex, color, sexual orientation, physical or mental disability, religion, ancestry or national origin, marital status, genetic information, or political affiliation. Minorities are encouraged to apply. The anticipated start date for the position is January 1, 2016. For fullest consideration, applicants should *submit the following materials electronically via the University of Maryland Jobs Portal- * https://ejobs.umd.edu/postings/34527* no later than October 1, 2015*: cover letter summarizing qualifications; a current curriculum vitae; and names, addresses, phone numbers, and e-mail addresses of three individuals who may be contacted by the committee as references. All inquiries and nominations should be sent to: Christy Tirrell-Corbin, PhD Chair, Search Committee 3304 Benjamin Building University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Email: ctc@umd.edu Nathan A. Fox Distinguished University Professor Interim Chair, Department of Human Development and Quantitative Methodology Ph: 301-405-2816 Fax: 301-405-2891 http://www.education.umd.edu/HDQM/labs/Fox/ http://www.bucharestearlyinterventionproject.org/ -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Wed Aug 26 10:01:21 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:01:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: open rank position in anthropology at Teachers College In-Reply-To: <55DC75FB.3060806@aim.com> References: <55DC75FB.3060806@aim.com> Message-ID: Looks to be a good job for the right person. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Herve Varenne Date: Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:04 AM Subject: open rank position in anthropology at Teachers College To: lchcmike@gmail.com Cc: "Daehlin, Lisa" Dear Mike, Our programs in anthropology at Teachers College, Columbia University are in the happy position of searching for a new faculty member to help us build our future. This is an ?open rank? position as we seek someone who will lead us over the long term. I attach the position advertisement. It is also found on our web site at: http://www.tc.columbia.edu/dean/index.asp?Id=Faculty+Searches&Info=Open+Rank+Professor%2C+Anthropology Since you may not be very familiar with our programs, here are a few details. First, our faculty are responsible for two Ph.D. granting programs: the Program in Anthropology and Education, and the Joint Program in Applied Anthropology. The programs share a general curriculum in anthropology but offer students, and faculty, different openings onto the worlds where anthropology has been found helpful, both for research and practice. Faculty and student research ranges from works on schools and classrooms, to education outside of schools, to medicine, the environment, development, the media, religion, engineering, etc. The faculty and students have worked in a diverse array of institutions globally. Our graduates find positions either in academia or beyond. Theoretically and methodologically, we have been, and expect to remain, eclectic. We do insist on one thing, we are anthropologists and we expect our students to be trained as professional anthropologists first. We remain convinced that, when anthropologists enter political worlds where their advice might directly lead to policy decisions, they must do so with the strongest disciplinary training that we, as faculty, can offer them. We are looking for someone who shares this conviction. I am contacting you in the hope that you might know someone who would be interested in exploring possibilities with us. As you can see from the advertisement, we have deliberately stated our expectations in broad terms. Please, do distribute this advertisement broadly to colleagues, students, and alumni of your programs. Do also consider it an invitation to apply, should the position be something you might be interested in exploring. With my best wishes, -- == HERVE VARENNE == Professor and Coordinator Programs in Anthropology Chair, Department of International and Transcultural Studies http://www.tc.columbia.edu/ITS/anthro/ -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2015 search-advertisement-final.150817.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 73557 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150826/0f0b28af/attachment.pdf From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 27 07:53:06 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 07:53:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Assistant/Associate Professor in Cognition, Technology, and Learning at Kent State University In-Reply-To: <4B34554D-965D-4316-A69C-E98A0530B23E@kent.edu> References: <4B34554D-965D-4316-A69C-E98A0530B23E@kent.edu> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Morris, Bradley* Date: Thursday, August 27, 2015 Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Assistant/Associate Professor in Cognition, Technology, and Learning at Kent State University To: "cogdevsoc@cogdevsoc.org" *Cognition, Technology, and Learning Assistant or Associate Professor* *Opportunity**:* The School of Lifespan Development and Educational Sciences at Kent State University invites applications for an Assistant or Associate Professor position in the Cognition, Technology, and Learning (Educational Psychology and Instructional Technology) program. This is a fulltime tenure-track position beginning in the Fall semester of 2016. Cognition, Technology, and Learning faculty ( http://www.kent.edu/ehhs/ldes/epsy) enjoy strong collaboration with many departments on campus, most notably the Department of Psychological Sciences (https://www.kent.edu/psychology/cognitive-psychology). In addition, the department is closely aligned with the Science of Learning and Education (SOLE) Center (http://www.kent.edu/sole/welcome-sole-center). *Qualifications**:* This position requires an earned doctorate in one of the following areas: Cognitive Science, Educational, Cognitive, or Developmental Psychology, Instructional or Educational Technology, or Learning Sciences. Candidates should be developing a strong program of theory-driven research relevant to improving and assessing student learning or education using technology or digital media. Research specializations in the following areas are of particular interest: cognition and instruction; STEM education; motivation; educational games; simulation and immersive environments; dynamic assessment; mobile teaching and learning, computer-supported collaboration; and online and blended instruction. Preference will be given to candidates with a strong commitment to research that focuses on the intersection of psychological theories of learning, cognition, and instructional technology and who have a strong record of publishing and receiving external funding. *Application**: *Review of applications will begin October 15, 2015. To apply, please complete an online application at http://jobs.kent.edu and attach a cover letter detailing research and teaching interests, a current curriculum vitae, and an academic transcript. Also arrange for three letters of recommendation and representative publications to be submitted. Questions related to the job or the application should be directed to the search chair, Dr. Bradley Morris, bmorri20@kent.edu Kent State University is an EO/AA employer and has a strong institutional commitment to diversity. Women, minorities, persons with disabilities, and veterans are encouraged to apply. All documents submitted to Kent State University for employment opportunities are public record and subject to disclosure under the Ohio Public Records law. Bradley J. Morris Dept. of Educational Psychology, Associate Professor http://bmorri20.ehhs.kent.edu/bmorri20/Home.html Science of Learning and Education Center (SOLE), Associate Director http://www.kent.edu/cas/SOLE/ 412A White Hall, Kent State University Kent, OH 44242 330-672-0590 email: bmorri20@kent.edu -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 27 09:04:30 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 09:04:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Open Rank Search in Human Development, Brown University In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Should be of interest to many. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sobel, David Date: Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 8:50 AM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Open Rank Search in Human Development, Brown University To: cogdevsoc@cogdevsoc.org Sent on behalf of the Department of Education at Brown University. Human Development - Open Rank Faculty Position The Department of Education at Brown University is conducting an open-rank faculty search in human development to begin July 1, 2016. We invite scholars whose research focuses on human development from birth to young adulthood and whose work is clearly germane to education. Areas of interest in this search include human development scholarship as applied to cultural/ethnic factors, racial/ethnic identity, bilingual/literacy development, socio-emotional processes, parental socialization, or cognitive and neurological processes of development, though we welcome scholarship in other areas relevant to education. We invite individuals with an earned doctorate from any discipline who study human development broadly construed, including psychology, anthropology, sociology, family studies, and public health, among others. Senior scholars must demonstrate a successful record of research funding and refereed journal publication, and demonstrated excellence in teaching and advising undergraduates. Junior candidates must show promise of an active research agenda, have a demonstrated record of and interest in teaching undergraduates, and have an earned doctorate by the position start date. Interested applicants are required to submit a letter of interest, curriculum vitae, and two writing samples. Junior applicants must submit three (3) confidential reference letters; Senior applicants must submit the names and contact information for at least five (5) referees, but should not submit letters at this time. Apply at http://apply.interfolio.com/30596. Review of applications will begin October 15, 2015 and continue until the position is filled or the search is closed. Questions about the positions can be addressed to Professor Tracy Steffes, Search Committee Co-Chair, at Tracy_Steffes@Brown.edu. Brown University is committed to fostering a diverse and inclusive academic global community; as an EEO/AA employer, Brown considers applicants for employment without regard to, and does not discriminate on the basis of, gender, race, protected veteran status, disability, or any other legally protected status. _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 27 21:39:29 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 21:39:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Junior and Senior Open-area positions in one of Australia's leading research-intensive Psychology Departments In-Reply-To: <2C1606180DE5C94091133EBBE275F2683EE7737B@INFPWXM012.ad.unsw.edu.au> References: <2C1606180DE5C94091133EBBE275F2683EE7737B@INFPWXM012.ad.unsw.edu.au> Message-ID: Of potential interest. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Brett Hayes Date: Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:16 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Junior and Senior Open-area positions in one of Australia's leading research-intensive Psychology Departments To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" Applicants in any area of Developmental Psychology welcome! http://www.jobs.unsw.edu.au/lecturerssenior-lecturersassociate-professors-psychology http://www.jobs.unsw.edu.au/professors-psychology *********************************************************************** Brett Hayes, PhD Professor School of Psychology University of New South Wales Sydney 2052 AUSTRALIA Ph: 61-2 9385 3713 Fax: 61-2 9385 3641 CRICOS Provider Code: 00098G *********************************************************************** _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 27 22:44:02 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:44:02 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] speed of political action Message-ID: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> I must share this with my xmca friends. This morning the government launched an operation which is to my mind the kind of thing which could only happen in Korea of the Southern states of the US: The newly created Border Force was to conduct a campaign of spot checks on people in the streets of central Melbourne, checking people's "papers". By morning rush hour time a demonstration had been mounted at the main railway station, and now in late afternoon is blocking off public transport in and our of the city, the move was soon all over social media and I am told the would-be police-state move had to be called off. It would have taken a month to get a counter demo. up over this in my days, but the opposition moved faster than the police! Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From s.franklin08@btinternet.com Fri Aug 28 01:18:33 2015 From: s.franklin08@btinternet.com (Shirley Franklin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 09:18:33 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: speed of political action In-Reply-To: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> References: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> Message-ID: Social media is now a powerful tool in supporting struggles against oppression. We successfully organise demos via email and Facebook and websites - look at the massive Stop the War demos across the world! And I love reading the breadth of opinions and articles people post on FB and on here! Shirley Sent from my iPhone > On 28 Aug 2015, at 06:44, Andy Blunden wrote: > > I must share this with my xmca friends. > This morning the government launched an operation which is to my mind the kind of thing which could only happen in Korea of the Southern states of the US: The newly created Border Force was to conduct a campaign of spot checks on people in the streets of central Melbourne, checking people's "papers". By morning rush hour time a demonstration had been mounted at the main railway station, and now in late afternoon is blocking off public transport in and our of the city, the move was soon all over social media and I am told the would-be police-state move had to be called off. > It would have taken a month to get a counter demo. up over this in my days, but the opposition moved faster than the police! > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Aug 28 08:19:11 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:19:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: speed of political action In-Reply-To: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> References: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> Message-ID: <004301d0e1a4$e5bb2e00$b1318a00$@att.net> Thanks for good news! -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 1:44 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] speed of political action I must share this with my xmca friends. This morning the government launched an operation which is to my mind the kind of thing which could only happen in Korea of the Southern states of the US: The newly created Border Force was to conduct a campaign of spot checks on people in the streets of central Melbourne, checking people's "papers". By morning rush hour time a demonstration had been mounted at the main railway station, and now in late afternoon is blocking off public transport in and our of the city, the move was soon all over social media and I am told the would-be police-state move had to be called off. It would have taken a month to get a counter demo. up over this in my days, but the opposition moved faster than the police! Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Aug 28 10:21:17 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 19:21:17 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Is this good news for us? Should we comment? Message-ID: *http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results * ?An interesting part is near the end where they refer to why the experiments don't always replicate. In fact, it's because the contexts aren't identical! Are we surprised? What could we tell them? Perhaps you should have a quick look because the site might not last - posted yesterday in the Guardian. Carol? -- Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researche ?r.? Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Aug 28 10:21:17 2015 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 19:21:17 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Is this good news for us? Should we comment? Message-ID: *http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results * ?An interesting part is near the end where they refer to why the experiments don't always replicate. In fact, it's because the contexts aren't identical! Are we surprised? What could we tell them? Perhaps you should have a quick look because the site might not last - posted yesterday in the Guardian. Carol? -- Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researche ?r.? Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Aug 28 11:01:32 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is this good news for us? Should we comment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, this article on non-replicability also appeared on the first page of the NY Times. And the failure of psychologists to take context seriously, and to use as "measures" indicators that have low-to-no ecological validity. Note also the topics included in the re-view. mike On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Carol Macdonald wrote: > * > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > < > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > > > * > > ?An interesting part is near the end where they refer to why the > experiments don't always replicate. In fact, it's because the contexts > aren't identical! > > Are we surprised? What could we tell them? > > Perhaps you should have a quick look because the site might not last - > posted yesterday in the Guardian. > > Carol? > > -- > Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researche > ?r.? > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From mcole@ucsd.edu Fri Aug 28 11:01:32 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:01:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is this good news for us? Should we comment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, this article on non-replicability also appeared on the first page of the NY Times. And the failure of psychologists to take context seriously, and to use as "measures" indicators that have low-to-no ecological validity. Note also the topics included in the re-view. mike On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Carol Macdonald wrote: > * > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > < > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > > > * > > ?An interesting part is near the end where they refer to why the > experiments don't always replicate. In fact, it's because the contexts > aren't identical! > > Are we surprised? What could we tell them? > > Perhaps you should have a quick look because the site might not last - > posted yesterday in the Guardian. > > Carol? > > -- > Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researche > ?r.? > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Aug 28 11:55:45 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:55:45 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is this good news for us? Should we comment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006e01d0e1c3$26de4e80$749aeb80$@att.net> It is also in the journal Science Science Vol. 349 no. 6251 DOI: 10.1126/science.aac4716 28 August 2015 Research Article: Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science Open Science Collaboration The collaboration is a huge international group (listed at the end of the full text) The full text is available free http://www.sciencemag.org/content/349/6251/aac4716.full -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 2:02 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is this good news for us? Should we comment? Yes, this article on non-replicability also appeared on the first page of the NY Times. And the failure of psychologists to take context seriously, and to use as "measures" indicators that have low-to-no ecological validity. Note also the topics included in the re-view. mike On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Carol Macdonald < carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote: > * > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-ve > rdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > < > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-ve > rdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > > > * > > ?An interesting part is near the end where they refer to why the > experiments don't always replicate. In fact, it's because the > contexts aren't identical! > > Are we surprised? What could we tell them? > > Perhaps you should have a quick look because the site might not last - > posted yesterday in the Guardian. > > Carol? > > -- > Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researche > ?r.? > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From Peg.Griffin@att.net Fri Aug 28 11:55:45 2015 From: Peg.Griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 14:55:45 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is this good news for us? Should we comment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006e01d0e1c3$26de4e80$749aeb80$@att.net> It is also in the journal Science Science Vol. 349 no. 6251 DOI: 10.1126/science.aac4716 28 August 2015 Research Article: Estimating the reproducibility of psychological science Open Science Collaboration The collaboration is a huge international group (listed at the end of the full text) The full text is available free http://www.sciencemag.org/content/349/6251/aac4716.full -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 2:02 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is this good news for us? Should we comment? Yes, this article on non-replicability also appeared on the first page of the NY Times. And the failure of psychologists to take context seriously, and to use as "measures" indicators that have low-to-no ecological validity. Note also the topics included in the re-view. mike On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Carol Macdonald < carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote: > * > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-ve > rdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > < > http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-ve > rdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results > > > * > > ?An interesting part is near the end where they refer to why the > experiments don't always replicate. In fact, it's because the > contexts aren't identical! > > Are we surprised? What could we tell them? > > Perhaps you should have a quick look because the site might not last - > posted yesterday in the Guardian. > > Carol? > > -- > Carol A Macdonald PhD (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researche > ?r.? > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Behind every gifted woman there is often a remarkable cat. > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Aug 28 15:24:50 2015 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:24:50 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: speed of political action In-Reply-To: <004301d0e1a4$e5bb2e00$b1318a00$@att.net> References: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> <004301d0e1a4$e5bb2e00$b1318a00$@att.net> Message-ID: http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2015/aug/28/protest-against-border-force-visa-crackdown-shuts-melbourne-streets-live In my limited experience and thinking, special ops police forces seem to have two distinct characteristics. The first is the focus on catching criminals in criminal activities rather than educating people against them. The second is a preference for militarised operations, rather than standardised policing. I would guess that (an argument for) the appropriate time to take such measures is when there are no other resources available to protect something of obvious felt importance that is also felt to be clearly at risk, that doesn't seem to be the case in this protest. I wonder whether such morality could be institutionalised into police practice, i.e. to legitimately boycott operations that do not meet those criteria. Huw On 28 August 2015 at 16:19, Peg Griffin wrote: > Thanks for good news! > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy > Blunden > Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 1:44 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] speed of political action > > I must share this with my xmca friends. > This morning the government launched an operation which is to my mind the > kind of thing which could only happen in Korea of the Southern states of > the US: The newly created Border Force was to conduct a campaign of spot > checks on people in the streets of central Melbourne, checking people's > "papers". By morning rush hour time a demonstration had been mounted at the > main railway station, and now in late afternoon is blocking off public > transport in and our of the city, the move was soon all over social media > and I am told the would-be police-state move had to be called off. > It would have taken a month to get a counter demo. up over this in my > days, but the opposition moved faster than the police! > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Aug 28 18:47:54 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:47:54 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: speed of political action In-Reply-To: References: <55DFF522.4030005@mira.net> <004301d0e1a4$e5bb2e00$b1318a00$@att.net> Message-ID: <55E10F4A.6050206@mira.net> Indeed, Huw. After the Operation had been cancelled and the Press Conference cancelled, the Union representing the "Border Force" was on the radio pleading for people to understand that the Border Force officers were just ordinary men and women who had gone to work in the Customs or Immigration Services and were not equipped to do this kind of work and would people please not treat them so badly. "Border Force" was created by the Abbott government soon after they got elected on a "Stop the Boats" slogan by amalgamating the Customs and Immigration services and putting them under an Army General, a transparent piece of militaristic posturing! Even Australian voters who can be easily fooled by this kind of charade have become tired by sabre rattling and "Commander in Chief" posturing which has gone on for 2 years now. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 29/08/2015 8:24 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2015/aug/28/protest-against-border-force-visa-crackdown-shuts-melbourne-streets-live > > In my limited experience and thinking, special ops police forces seem to > have two distinct characteristics. The first is the focus on catching > criminals in criminal activities rather than educating people against > them. The second is a preference for militarised operations, rather than > standardised policing. I would guess that (an argument for) the appropriate > time to take such measures is when there are no other resources available > to protect something of obvious felt importance that is also felt to be > clearly at risk, that doesn't seem to be the case in this protest. I > wonder whether such morality could be institutionalised into police > practice, i.e. to legitimately boycott operations that do not meet those > criteria. > > Huw > > > > > On 28 August 2015 at 16:19, Peg Griffin wrote: > >> Thanks for good news! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces+peg.griffin=att.net@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy >> Blunden >> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 1:44 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] speed of political action >> >> I must share this with my xmca friends. >> This morning the government launched an operation which is to my mind the >> kind of thing which could only happen in Korea of the Southern states of >> the US: The newly created Border Force was to conduct a campaign of spot >> checks on people in the streets of central Melbourne, checking people's >> "papers". By morning rush hour time a demonstration had been mounted at the >> main railway station, and now in late afternoon is blocking off public >> transport in and our of the city, the move was soon all over social media >> and I am told the would-be police-state move had to be called off. >> It would have taken a month to get a counter demo. up over this in my >> days, but the opposition moved faster than the police! >> >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> From smago@uga.edu Sat Aug 29 11:31:06 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:31:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Call for Language and Literacy Poetry Submissions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: JoLLE (Journal of Language and Literacy at UGA) is currently accepting submissions for poetry and art that relate to language and/or literacy. I have attached the call for submissions. Grazie mille! Rhia Rhia Moreno Kilpatrick Doctoral Student, World Language Education Department of Language & Literacy Education University of Georgia 301E Aderhold Hall rhia@uga.edu Review Board, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga [] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: JoLLE Fall 2015 Call for Submissions of Poetry and Art Final.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 166751 bytes Desc: JoLLE Fall 2015 Call for Submissions of Poetry and Art Final.docx Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150829/8d2f084e/attachment.bin From Garry.ODell@uon.edu.au Sat Aug 29 19:28:52 2015 From: Garry.ODell@uon.edu.au (Garry O'Dell) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:28:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] CHAT and Government Land use decision making In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Dear All, Dear All, I am trying to establish whether other academics have encountered my particular field of inquiry. This exploratory qualitative research focuses on the decision-making process of state and local government bureaucrats as it relates to temporary uses. Events, such as markets, community, sporting, music, art and agricultural shows can be one-off, intermittent or a regular user of vacant private or public land, water or the air. Anecdotal evidence notes that government, community and industry actors hold different interpretations, priorities and understandings and as a result events are inconsistently treated in the land use regulation process. There is uncertainty, conflicting organizational priorities and community expectations, and a lack of useful policies, practices or methodologies. The research applies Cultural Historical Activity Theory (CHAT) as a conceptual framework enhanced by a theoretical scaffold provided by Weber?s classic theory of rationality, Bozeman?s red tape theory, Lipsky?s work on street level bureaucracy and Ritzer?s McDonaldization. CHAT acts as a lens to understand the decision-making process drawing upon data collected from documents and semi-structured interviews of legislators, event organisers and government staff. I am particularly interested in exploring the decision-making process for events with following characteristics/dynamics: ? Land-, water- or air-based use/event ? Held on private or public spaces ? One-off, intermittent or a regular use/event ? Arranged with a commercial or not-for-profit focus ? Using temporary facilities such as marques, stages, car parks, amenities and food kiosks to make any public or private space usable ? On or in a space (building, land, water or air) not primarily intended for the use/event ? At the end of the temporary use/event the space is restored, as far as is practicable, to the pre-use condition ? Does not hinder the permanent development of the space ? Can be a mix of temporary uses, e.g. camping with a concert. If you are aware of any academic research or insights into events decision making processes. Regards, Garry O'Dell Ph. 0412439589 Doctoral Candidate Newcastle Business School Faculty of Business and Law University of Newcastle Auckland Street, NEWCASTLE NSW 2300 Australia ________________________________ From preiss.xmca@gmail.com Sun Aug 30 16:33:19 2015 From: preiss.xmca@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:33:19 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Oliver Sacks Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am deeply saddened by the death of Oliver Sacks. I never had the opportunity to interact with him but by his books and texts and even learnt of his portrait by R. Williams in Awakenings before even knowing it was about him. I have used that movie in my teaching many times to inspire my students not only about creativity in science but also to have them thinking about the relationship between brain and experience. When I taught Intro Psych I used his books as a complement to the boring but unavoidable handbook and catalogue of facts. It was thanks to Mike that I learnt of the Luria-Sacks connection. He was for me, as his humble reader, an expression of an unlike marriage, that of the literary and the scientific thanks to the template of narrative. He made me see the world in a way I would have been uncapable to grasp without the help of his ethical and beautiful prose. I will miss him in the same way I miss a poet whose writing marked me not only cognitively but also emotionally. Thanks, Mr. Sacks, for your legacy to us, your readers. David From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 30 16:42:11 2015 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 17:42:11 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Speaking of creativity, I just heard a radiolab episode that talks about how Sacks dealt with writer's block for his first book. He told himself that he would kill himself (literally) if he didn't finish the book within a week. Here is a link to the audio: http://www.radiolab.org/story/117294-me-myself-and-muse/ (btw, I'm not proposing this as a solution for anyone, although it seemed to work for him...) Sadly, greg On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:33 PM, David Preiss wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am deeply saddened by the death of Oliver Sacks. I never had the > opportunity to interact with him but by his books and texts and even learnt > of his portrait by R. Williams in Awakenings before even knowing it was > about him. I have used that movie in my teaching many times to inspire my > students not only about creativity in science but also to have them > thinking about the relationship between brain and experience. When I taught > Intro Psych I used his books as a complement to the boring but unavoidable > handbook and catalogue of facts. It was thanks to Mike that I learnt of > the Luria-Sacks connection. He was for me, as his humble reader, an > expression of an unlike marriage, that of the literary and the scientific > thanks to the template of narrative. He made me see the world in a way I > would have been uncapable to grasp without the help of his ethical and > beautiful prose. > I will miss him in the same way I miss a poet whose writing marked me not > only cognitively but also emotionally. Thanks, Mr. Sacks, for your legacy > to us, your readers. David > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mcole@ucsd.edu Sun Aug 30 18:02:41 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:02:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?=5BLchc-l=5D_Re=3A_Fwd=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_Oliver_S?= =?utf-8?q?acks_Dies_at_82=3B_Neurologist_and_Author_Explored_the_B?= =?utf-8?b?cmFpbuKAmXMgUXVpcmtz?= In-Reply-To: References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria and the fact that we independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a shy and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference between him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that someone pirated on to youtube. Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually all the while. mike On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin wrote: > Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an > evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol > Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - it was > an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from Bruner? I > wonder if he's still active. > > Laura > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues --- > > I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks has > succumbed to cancer. > Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM > Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author > Explored the Brain?s Quirks > To: lchcmike@gmail.com > > > Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist > and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks > By > GREGORY COWLES > > Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in best-selling > case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? achieving a > level of renown rare among scientists. > Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D > To > get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See > Subscription Options. > To > ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your > address book. Advertisement > > > Copyright 2015 > > | The New York Times Company > > | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From bealigorio@hotmail.com Sun Aug 30 23:35:40 2015 From: bealigorio@hotmail.com (Beatrice Ligorio) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:35:40 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?UjogIFJlOglbTGNoYy1sXSBSZTogRndkOiBOWVRpbWVzLmNvbTog?= =?utf-8?q?Oliver_Sacks_Dies_at_82=3B_Neurologist_and_Author_Explored_the_?= =?utf-8?q?Brain=E2=80=99s_Quirks?= Message-ID: The man that mistook science with poetry Bea ________________________________ Da: mike cole Inviato: ?31/?08/?2015 03.05 A: lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Oggetto: [Xmca-l] Re: [Lchc-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria and the fact that we independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a shy and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference between him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that someone pirated on to youtube. Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually all the while. mike On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin wrote: > Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an > evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol > Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - it was > an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from Bruner? I > wonder if he's still active. > > Laura > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Dear Colleagues --- > > I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks has > succumbed to cancer. > Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM > Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author > Explored the Brain?s Quirks > To: lchcmike@gmail.com > > > Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist > and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks > By > GREGORY COWLES > > Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in best-selling > case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? achieving a > level of renown rare among scientists. > Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D > To > get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See > Subscription Options. > To > ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your > address book. Advertisement > > > Copyright 2015 > > | The New York Times Company > > | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From smago@uga.edu Mon Aug 31 02:44:53 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:44:53 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Atlanta paper filed an obit today at Neurologist Oliver Sacks dies 'a sentient being' . What?s interesting is the closing line: He is survived by his partner, Bill Hayes. It?s good to see same-sex partners identified with no fanfare, in a matter of fact way, in a Southern daily newspaper. Speaks volumes of how far society has come in the last decade on respecting relationships (if not in political discourse designed to enlist ?the base? of conservative ideology). -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 7:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Oliver Sacks Dear colleagues, I am deeply saddened by the death of Oliver Sacks. I never had the opportunity to interact with him but by his books and texts and even learnt of his portrait by R. Williams in Awakenings before even knowing it was about him. I have used that movie in my teaching many times to inspire my students not only about creativity in science but also to have them thinking about the relationship between brain and experience. When I taught Intro Psych I used his books as a complement to the boring but unavoidable handbook and catalogue of facts. It was thanks to Mike that I learnt of the Luria-Sacks connection. He was for me, as his humble reader, an expression of an unlike marriage, that of the literary and the scientific thanks to the template of narrative. He made me see the world in a way I would have been uncapable to grasp without the help of his ethical and beautiful prose. I will miss him in the same way I miss a poet whose writing marked me not only cognitively but also emotionally. Thanks, Mr. Sacks, for your legacy to us, your readers. David From smago@uga.edu Mon Aug 31 02:58:43 2015 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:58:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From another list this morning: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/08/the-oliver-sacks-reading-list/401993/ -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 5:45 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks The Atlanta paper filed an obit today at Neurologist Oliver Sacks dies 'a sentient being' . What?s interesting is the closing line: He is survived by his partner, Bill Hayes. It?s good to see same-sex partners identified with no fanfare, in a matter of fact way, in a Southern daily newspaper. Speaks volumes of how far society has come in the last decade on respecting relationships (if not in political discourse designed to enlist ?the base? of conservative ideology). -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 7:33 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Oliver Sacks Dear colleagues, I am deeply saddened by the death of Oliver Sacks. I never had the opportunity to interact with him but by his books and texts and even learnt of his portrait by R. Williams in Awakenings before even knowing it was about him. I have used that movie in my teaching many times to inspire my students not only about creativity in science but also to have them thinking about the relationship between brain and experience. When I taught Intro Psych I used his books as a complement to the boring but unavoidable handbook and catalogue of facts. It was thanks to Mike that I learnt of the Luria-Sacks connection. He was for me, as his humble reader, an expression of an unlike marriage, that of the literary and the scientific thanks to the template of narrative. He made me see the world in a way I would have been uncapable to grasp without the help of his ethical and beautiful prose. I will miss him in the same way I miss a poet whose writing marked me not only cognitively but also emotionally. Thanks, Mr. Sacks, for your legacy to us, your readers. David From jwmuic@gmail.com Mon Aug 31 08:22:43 2015 From: jwmuic@gmail.com (Jose W. Melendez) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:22:43 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CHAT and Government Land use decision making In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Gary, It is good to hear that there are other's beginning to pay attention to public spaces and theorize how a CHAT approach can afford a framing of the activity happening in them. I am a doctoral candidate in the Learning Sciences with a co-discipline in Urban Planning and Policy at the University of Illinois, Chicago. My research focus is on how people learn in democratic activity. My research uses a Cultural Historical Activity Theory framework to analyze participatory planning processes as learning environments. The specific phenomenon of my dissertation is the Participatory Budgeting Process in Chicago's 49th Ward. When conducting my literature review there were indeed very few references of others using a CHAT framework in participatory planning processes. The following are individuals who have begun to to do so in a variety of ways and environments: Rogers Hall, Moira Zellner, Charles Hoch, Katherine Headrick Taylor, and Leilah Lyons, C. Hanny, K. O'Connor. K Quick and M. Feldman from the planning field have begun to use communities of practice framework to understand participation in these environments. There is also a dissertation by Raine M?ntysalo that Engestr?m shared with me. Besides these, you have to be creative in your literature review searches and framing. You can contact me to discuss further if you wish and I wish you best of luck. *Jos? W. Mel?ndez, M.Ed.* University of Illinois @ Chicago (UIC) Doctoral Candidate in the Learning Sciences & Research Assistant at the Learning Sciences Research Institute (LSRI) Email: jwmuic@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Garry O'Dell wrote: > > Dear All, > Dear All, > > I am trying to establish whether other academics have encountered my > particular field of inquiry. > > This exploratory qualitative research focuses on the decision-making > process of state and local government bureaucrats as it relates to > temporary uses. Events, such as markets, community, sporting, music, art > and agricultural shows can be one-off, intermittent or a regular user of > vacant private or public land, water or the air. Anecdotal evidence notes > that government, community and industry actors hold different > interpretations, priorities and understandings and as a result events are > inconsistently treated in the land use regulation process. There is > uncertainty, conflicting organizational priorities and community > expectations, and a lack of useful policies, practices or methodologies. > > The research applies Cultural Historical Activity Theory (CHAT) as a > conceptual framework enhanced by a theoretical scaffold provided by Weber?s > classic theory of rationality, Bozeman?s red tape theory, Lipsky?s work on > street level bureaucracy and Ritzer?s McDonaldization. CHAT acts as a lens > to understand the decision-making process drawing upon data collected from > documents and semi-structured interviews of legislators, event organisers > and government staff. > > I am particularly interested in exploring the decision-making process for > events with following characteristics/dynamics: > > ? Land-, water- or air-based use/event > ? Held on private or public spaces > ? One-off, intermittent or a regular use/event > ? Arranged with a commercial or not-for-profit focus > ? Using temporary facilities such as marques, stages, car parks, > amenities and food kiosks to make any public or private space usable > ? On or in a space (building, land, water or air) not primarily > intended for the use/event > ? At the end of the temporary use/event the space is restored, as far > as is practicable, to the pre-use condition > ? Does not hinder the permanent development of the space > ? Can be a mix of temporary uses, e.g. camping with a concert. > > If you are aware of any academic research or insights into events decision > making processes. > > Regards, > > > > Garry O'Dell > > Ph. 0412439589 > > Doctoral Candidate > Newcastle Business School > Faculty of Business and Law > University of Newcastle > Auckland Street, > NEWCASTLE NSW 2300 Australia > > ________________________________ > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Aug 31 09:29:53 2015 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Lplarry) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:29:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CHAT and Government Land use decision making In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55e48110.463f420a.f854.ffff9878@mx.google.com> A scholar in Buenos Aires (Ana Ines Heras) has a project focusing on a new governmental infrastructure to create new "neighborhoods". Her focus is how participants deciding who is included and excluded. Larry -----Original Message----- From: "Jose W. Melendez" Sent: ?2015-?08-?31 8:25 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CHAT and Government Land use decision making Hi Gary, It is good to hear that there are other's beginning to pay attention to public spaces and theorize how a CHAT approach can afford a framing of the activity happening in them. I am a doctoral candidate in the Learning Sciences with a co-discipline in Urban Planning and Policy at the University of Illinois, Chicago. My research focus is on how people learn in democratic activity. My research uses a Cultural Historical Activity Theory framework to analyze participatory planning processes as learning environments. The specific phenomenon of my dissertation is the Participatory Budgeting Process in Chicago's 49th Ward. When conducting my literature review there were indeed very few references of others using a CHAT framework in participatory planning processes. The following are individuals who have begun to to do so in a variety of ways and environments: Rogers Hall, Moira Zellner, Charles Hoch, Katherine Headrick Taylor, and Leilah Lyons, C. Hanny, K. O'Connor. K Quick and M. Feldman from the planning field have begun to use communities of practice framework to understand participation in these environments. There is also a dissertation by Raine M?ntysalo that Engestr?m shared with me. Besides these, you have to be creative in your literature review searches and framing. You can contact me to discuss further if you wish and I wish you best of luck. *Jos? W. Mel?ndez, M.Ed.* University of Illinois @ Chicago (UIC) Doctoral Candidate in the Learning Sciences & Research Assistant at the Learning Sciences Research Institute (LSRI) Email: jwmuic@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Garry O'Dell wrote: > > Dear All, > Dear All, > > I am trying to establish whether other academics have encountered my > particular field of inquiry. > > This exploratory qualitative research focuses on the decision-making > process of state and local government bureaucrats as it relates to > temporary uses. Events, such as markets, community, sporting, music, art > and agricultural shows can be one-off, intermittent or a regular user of > vacant private or public land, water or the air. Anecdotal evidence notes > that government, community and industry actors hold different > interpretations, priorities and understandings and as a result events are > inconsistently treated in the land use regulation process. There is > uncertainty, conflicting organizational priorities and community > expectations, and a lack of useful policies, practices or methodologies. > > The research applies Cultural Historical Activity Theory (CHAT) as a > conceptual framework enhanced by a theoretical scaffold provided by Weber?s > classic theory of rationality, Bozeman?s red tape theory, Lipsky?s work on > street level bureaucracy and Ritzer?s McDonaldization. CHAT acts as a lens > to understand the decision-making process drawing upon data collected from > documents and semi-structured interviews of legislators, event organisers > and government staff. > > I am particularly interested in exploring the decision-making process for > events with following characteristics/dynamics: > > ? Land-, water- or air-based use/event > ? Held on private or public spaces > ? One-off, intermittent or a regular use/event > ? Arranged with a commercial or not-for-profit focus > ? Using temporary facilities such as marques, stages, car parks, > amenities and food kiosks to make any public or private space usable > ? On or in a space (building, land, water or air) not primarily > intended for the use/event > ? At the end of the temporary use/event the space is restored, as far > as is practicable, to the pre-use condition > ? Does not hinder the permanent development of the space > ? Can be a mix of temporary uses, e.g. camping with a concert. > > If you are aware of any academic research or insights into events decision > making processes. > > Regards, > > > > Garry O'Dell > > Ph. 0412439589 > > Doctoral Candidate > Newcastle Business School > Faculty of Business and Law > University of Newcastle > Auckland Street, > NEWCASTLE NSW 2300 Australia > > ________________________________ > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 31 15:40:46 2015 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (HENRY SHONERD) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:40:46 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> Message-ID: <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> Mike, I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that naysayers were cited in reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering if some of that push back was related to his practice of romantic science, which, if I understand from things Andy has written, involves immersion in the phenomena of interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, for example, immersed himself in the phenomena of living things. His writing prefigures the cell as a unit of analysis, but the technology of microscopes could not confirm such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner and Sacks makes me wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at issue. Different styles of research bring different construals. This may be the bane of objectivist, empiricist science but does it really make Sacks less of a researcher and just a lowly clinician? Henry > On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria and > the fact that we > independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a shy > and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference between > him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that someone > pirated on > to youtube. > > Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually all > the while. > > mike > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin wrote: > >> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an >> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol >> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - it was >> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from Bruner? I >> wonder if he's still active. >> >> Laura >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues --- >> >> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks has >> succumbed to cancer. >> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. >> mike >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> >> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM >> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author >> Explored the Brain?s Quirks >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com >> >> >> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist >> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks >> By >> GREGORY COWLES >> >> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in best-selling >> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? achieving a >> level of renown rare among scientists. >> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D >> To >> get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See >> Subscription Options. >> To >> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your >> address book. Advertisement >> >> >> Copyright 2015 >> >> | The New York Times Company >> >> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 31 17:21:16 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:21:16 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' style of Romantic Science was his complete immersion in the individual case before him, and development of a science of complete persons. The paradigm of this type of science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative Science" I suppose. The opposite is the study of just one aspect of each case, e.g. facial recognition, and the attempt to formulate a "covering law" for just this aspect. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > Mike, > I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that naysayers were cited in reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering if some of that push back was related to his practice of romantic science, which, if I understand from things Andy has written, involves immersion in the phenomena of interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, for example, immersed himself in the phenomena of living things. His writing prefigures the cell as a unit of analysis, but the technology of microscopes could not confirm such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner and Sacks makes me wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at issue. Different styles of research bring different construals. This may be the bane of objectivist, empiricist science but does it really make Sacks less of a researcher and just a lowly clinician? > Henry > > >> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria and >> the fact that we >> independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a shy >> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference between >> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that someone >> pirated on >> to youtube. >> >> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually all >> the while. >> >> mike >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an >>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol >>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - it was >>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from Bruner? I >>> wonder if he's still active. >>> >>> Laura >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues --- >>> >>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks has >>> succumbed to cancer. >>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. >>> mike >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> >>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM >>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author >>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks >>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist >>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks >>> By >>> GREGORY COWLES >>> >>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in best-selling >>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? achieving a >>> level of renown rare among scientists. >>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D >>> To >>> get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See >>> Subscription Options. >>> To >>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your >>> address book. Advertisement >>> >>> >>> Copyright 2015 >>> >>> | The New York Times Company >>> >>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Aug 31 19:29:18 2015 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 11:29:18 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> Message-ID: I think the problem with this view of romantic science is that it completely precludes building a psychology on a sociology. In that sense (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't a romantic scientist at all. Vygotsky certainly did not believe in "total immersion in the individual case"; such an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of theory. I'm not sure Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man with a Shattered Mind" and "The Memory of Mnemonist" are really exceptions. Remember the main criticism of Luria's book "The Nature of Human Conflicts" was always that it was too quantitative. There are, of course, some areas of psychology that are well studied as case histories. Recently, I've been looking into suicidology, and in particular the work of Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered the linguistic analysis of suicide notes (and who appears to have been influenced, as early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work on schizophrinia). Now you would think that if ever there was a field that would benefit from total immersion in the individual case, this is one. But Shneidman says that suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal phrases, and as a consequence very easy to code--and treat quantiatively (one of his first studies was simply to sort a pile of real and imitation suicide notes and carefully note the criteria he had when he made correct judgements). And of course the whole point of Durkheim's work on suicide is that the individual case can be utterly disregarded, since the great variations are sociological and the psychological variables all seem trivial, transient, or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide at a large scale (as we must these days). Shneidman says he has never read a suicide note he would want to have written. David Kellogg On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' style of Romantic > Science was his complete immersion in the individual case before him, and > development of a science of complete persons. The paradigm of this type of > science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative Science" I suppose. The > opposite is the study of just one aspect of each case, e.g. facial > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a "covering law" for just this > aspect. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > >> Mike, >> I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that naysayers were cited in >> reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering if some of that push back >> was related to his practice of romantic science, which, if I understand >> from things Andy has written, involves immersion in the phenomena of >> interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, for example, immersed >> himself in the phenomena of living things. His writing prefigures the cell >> as a unit of analysis, but the technology of microscopes could not confirm >> such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner and Sacks makes me >> wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at issue. Different styles >> of research bring different construals. This may be the bane of >> objectivist, empiricist science but does it really make Sacks less of a >> researcher and just a lowly clinician? >> Henry >> >> >> >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria and >>> the fact that we >>> independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a >>> shy >>> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference >>> between >>> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that >>> someone >>> pirated on >>> to youtube. >>> >>> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually all >>> the while. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an >>>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol >>>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - it >>>> was >>>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from Bruner? I >>>> wonder if he's still active. >>>> >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues --- >>>> >>>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks has >>>> succumbed to cancer. >>>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. >>>> mike >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> >>>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM >>>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author >>>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist >>>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks >>>> < >>>> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> >>>> By >>>> GREGORY COWLES >>>> >>>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in >>>> best-selling >>>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? achieving >>>> a >>>> level of renown rare among scientists. >>>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D >>>> < >>>> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> >>>> To >>>> get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. >>>> See >>>> Subscription Options. >>>> < >>>> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> >>>> To >>>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your >>>> address book. Advertisement >>>> >>>> < >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=1071d68d/49278277&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977432-August-C&ad=MistressAmerica_336x90-NOW&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efandango%2Ecom%2Fmistressamerica%5F182432%2Fmovieoverview >>>> > >>>> Copyright 2015 >>>> < >>>> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >>>> > >>>> | The New York Times Company >>>> < >>>> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >>>> > >>>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >>> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 31 19:56:44 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:56:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> Message-ID: <55E513EC.7070602@mira.net> Sure David, and my comments on this topic carry all possible caveats. I referred to a "style of Romantic Science" particularly because Larry had correctly mentioned the idea of units of analysis (whole-in-the-part) as a "definition" of Romantic Science. I think it is clear that that style of Romantic Science was not what was meant in relation to Sacks. Mike can tell us what he meant. But so far as I know, the key attributes of Romantic Science are "delicate empiricism" and keeping the whole person/organism before you and eschewing analysis. There seem to be quite different ways of giving shape to these ideas. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 1/09/2015 12:29 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I think the problem with this view of romantic science is > that it completely precludes building a psychology on a > sociology. In that sense (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't > a romantic scientist at all. Vygotsky certainly did not > believe in "total immersion in the individual case"; such > an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of theory. > I'm not sure Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man > with a Shattered Mind" and "The Memory of Mnemonist" are > really exceptions. Remember the main criticism of Luria's > book "The Nature of Human Conflicts" was always that it > was too quantitative. > > There are, of course, some areas of psychology that are > well studied as case histories. Recently, I've been > looking into suicidology, and in particular the work of > Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered the linguistic analysis of > suicide notes (and who appears to have been influenced, as > early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work on > schizophrinia). Now you would think that if ever there was > a field that would benefit from total immersion in the > individual case, this is one. But Shneidman says that > suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal phrases, and > as a consequence very easy to code--and treat > quantiatively (one of his first studies was simply to sort > a pile of real and imitation suicide notes and carefully > note the criteria he had when he made correct judgements). > And of course the whole point of Durkheim's work on > suicide is that the individual case can be utterly > disregarded, since the great variations are sociological > and the psychological variables all seem trivial, > transient, or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide > at a large scale (as we must these days). Shneidman says > he has never read a suicide note he would want to have > written. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' > style of Romantic Science was his complete immersion > in the individual case before him, and development of > a science of complete persons. The paradigm of this > type of science was Luria. A limit case of > "Qualitative Science" I suppose. The opposite is the > study of just one aspect of each case, e.g. facial > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a "covering > law" for just this aspect. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > Mike, > I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that > naysayers were cited in reviewing Oliver Sacks? > life work. I am wondering if some of that push > back was related to his practice of romantic > science, which, if I understand from things Andy > has written, involves immersion in the phenomena > of interest in search of a unit of analysis. > Goethe, for example, immersed himself in the > phenomena of living things. His writing prefigures > the cell as a unit of analysis, but the technology > of microscopes could not confirm such a unit until > later on. Your contrasting Bruner and Sacks makes > me wonder if the subject, not just the object, is > at issue. Different styles of research bring > different construals. This may be the bane of > objectivist, empiricist science but does it really > make Sacks less of a researcher and just a lowly > clinician? > Henry > > > On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our > connections with Luria and > the fact that we > independently came to embrace the idea of a > romantic science. He was a shy > and diffident person. You can get that > feeling, and the difference between > him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the > interview with them that someone > pirated on > to youtube. > > Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, > engaging intellectually all > the while. > > mike > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin > > wrote: > > Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had > the privilege of spending an > evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was > visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol > Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who > couldn't make the dinner - it was > an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do > you ever hear from Bruner? I > wonder if he's still active. > > Laura > > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole > > > wrote: > > Dear Colleagues --- > > I am forwarding, with personal sadness, > the news that Oliver Sacks has > succumbed to cancer. > Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. > mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM > Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at > 82; Neurologist and Author > Explored the Brain?s Quirks > To: lchcmike@gmail.com > > > > Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com > : Oliver > Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist > and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks > > By > GREGORY COWLES > > Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s > strangest pathways in best-selling > case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook > His Wife for a Hat,? achieving a > level of renown rare among scientists. > Or, copy and paste this URL into your > browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D > > To > get unlimited access to all New York Times > articles, subscribe today. See > Subscription Options. > > To > ensure delivery to your inbox, please add > nytdirect@nytimes.com > to your > address book. Advertisement > > > Copyright 2015 > > | The New York Times Company > > | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, > NY 10018 > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as > a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a > natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > > From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 31 20:32:12 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:32:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> Message-ID: ?It might be helpful to this discussion if someone would post the chapter on Romantic Science from Luria's autobiography which MUST be somewhere public in pdf. It appears that I do not have one. After reading what the person said, then discussion of the ideas seems appropriate. Ditto Sacks, who has written a couple of extended essay's on his view of Romantic Science. It is true that the Russian psychologists, erudite as they were, were not sociologists. Nor were they anthropologists. The nature of their enterprise encompassed those fields and more. Doing Romantic Science and immersing oneself in the individual case in no way excludes inclusion of sociology, anthropology, in their work. Nor does Luria argue so. mike ? On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:29 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I think the problem with this view of romantic science is that it > completely precludes building a psychology on a sociology. In that sense > (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't a romantic scientist at all. Vygotsky > certainly did not believe in "total immersion in the individual case"; such > an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of theory. I'm not sure > Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man with a Shattered Mind" and > "The Memory of Mnemonist" are really exceptions. Remember the main > criticism of Luria's book "The Nature of Human Conflicts" was always that > it was too quantitative. > > There are, of course, some areas of psychology that are well studied as > case histories. Recently, I've been looking into suicidology, and in > particular the work of Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered the linguistic > analysis of suicide notes (and who appears to have been influenced, as > early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work on schizophrinia). > Now you would think that if ever there was a field that would benefit from > total immersion in the individual case, this is one. But Shneidman says > that suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal phrases, and as a > consequence very easy to code--and treat quantiatively (one of his first > studies was simply to sort a pile of real and imitation suicide notes and > carefully note the criteria he had when he made correct judgements). And of > course the whole point of Durkheim's work on suicide is that the individual > case can be utterly disregarded, since the great variations are > sociological and the psychological variables all seem trivial, transient, > or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide at a large scale (as we must > these days). Shneidman says he has never read a suicide note he would want > to have written. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' style of Romantic > > Science was his complete immersion in the individual case before him, and > > development of a science of complete persons. The paradigm of this type > of > > science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative Science" I suppose. The > > opposite is the study of just one aspect of each case, e.g. facial > > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a "covering law" for just this > > aspect. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > >> Mike, > >> I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that naysayers were cited in > >> reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering if some of that push > back > >> was related to his practice of romantic science, which, if I understand > >> from things Andy has written, involves immersion in the phenomena of > >> interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, for example, immersed > >> himself in the phenomena of living things. His writing prefigures the > cell > >> as a unit of analysis, but the technology of microscopes could not > confirm > >> such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner and Sacks makes me > >> wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at issue. Different > styles > >> of research bring different construals. This may be the bane of > >> objectivist, empiricist science but does it really make Sacks less of a > >> researcher and just a lowly clinician? > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria > and > >>> the fact that we > >>> independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a > >>> shy > >>> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference > >>> between > >>> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that > >>> someone > >>> pirated on > >>> to youtube. > >>> > >>> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually > all > >>> the while. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an > >>>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and Carol > >>>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - > it > >>>> was > >>>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from Bruner? > I > >>>> wonder if he's still active. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear Colleagues --- > >>>> > >>>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks has > >>>> succumbed to cancer. > >>>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. > >>>> mike > >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>> > >>>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM > >>>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author > >>>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; > Neurologist > >>>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > > > >>>> By > >>>> GREGORY COWLES > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in > >>>> best-selling > >>>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? > achieving > >>>> a > >>>> level of renown rare among scientists. > >>>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1LL040D > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > > > >>>> To > >>>> get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. > >>>> See > >>>> Subscription Options. > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > > > >>>> To > >>>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to > your > >>>> address book. Advertisement > >>>> > >>>> < > >>>> > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=1071d68d/49278277&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977432-August-C&ad=MistressAmerica_336x90-NOW&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efandango%2Ecom%2Fmistressamerica%5F182432%2Fmovieoverview > >>>> > > >>>> Copyright 2015 > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > >>>> > > >>>> | The New York Times Company > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > >>>> > > >>>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 31 20:56:17 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 13:56:17 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> Message-ID: <55E521E1.3030706@mira.net> "Romantic Science" by Luria, attached in HTML. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 1/09/2015 1:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > ?It might be helpful to this discussion if someone would > post the chapter on Romantic Science from Luria's > autobiography which MUST be somewhere public in pdf. It > appears that I do not have one. > > After reading what the person said, then discussion of the > ideas seems appropriate. Ditto Sacks, who has written a > couple of extended essay's on > his view of Romantic Science. > > It is true that the Russian psychologists, erudite as they > were, were not sociologists. Nor were they > anthropologists. The nature of their enterprise > encompassed those fields and more. > > Doing Romantic Science and immersing oneself in the > individual case in no way excludes inclusion of sociology, > anthropology, in their work. Nor does Luria argue so. > > mike > ? > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:29 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > I think the problem with this view of romantic science > is that it > completely precludes building a psychology on a > sociology. In that sense > (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't a romantic scientist > at all. Vygotsky > certainly did not believe in "total immersion in the > individual case"; such > an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of > theory. I'm not sure > Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man with a > Shattered Mind" and > "The Memory of Mnemonist" are really exceptions. > Remember the main > criticism of Luria's book "The Nature of Human > Conflicts" was always that > it was too quantitative. > > There are, of course, some areas of psychology that > are well studied as > case histories. Recently, I've been looking into > suicidology, and in > particular the work of Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered > the linguistic > analysis of suicide notes (and who appears to have > been influenced, as > early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work > on schizophrinia). > Now you would think that if ever there was a field > that would benefit from > total immersion in the individual case, this is one. > But Shneidman says > that suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal > phrases, and as a > consequence very easy to code--and treat quantiatively > (one of his first > studies was simply to sort a pile of real and > imitation suicide notes and > carefully note the criteria he had when he made > correct judgements). And of > course the whole point of Durkheim's work on suicide > is that the individual > case can be utterly disregarded, since the great > variations are > sociological and the psychological variables all seem > trivial, transient, > or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide at a > large scale (as we must > these days). Shneidman says he has never read a > suicide note he would want > to have written. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' > style of Romantic > > Science was his complete immersion in the individual > case before him, and > > development of a science of complete persons. The > paradigm of this type of > > science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative > Science" I suppose. The > > opposite is the study of just one aspect of each > case, e.g. facial > > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a > "covering law" for just this > > aspect. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > >> Mike, > >> I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that > naysayers were cited in > >> reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering > if some of that push back > >> was related to his practice of romantic science, > which, if I understand > >> from things Andy has written, involves immersion in > the phenomena of > >> interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, > for example, immersed > >> himself in the phenomena of living things. His > writing prefigures the cell > >> as a unit of analysis, but the technology of > microscopes could not confirm > >> such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner > and Sacks makes me > >> wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at > issue. Different styles > >> of research bring different construals. This may be > the bane of > >> objectivist, empiricist science but does it really > make Sacks less of a > >> researcher and just a lowly clinician? > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our > connections with Luria and > >>> the fact that we > >>> independently came to embrace the idea of a > romantic science. He was a > >>> shy > >>> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, > and the difference > >>> between > >>> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the > interview with them that > >>> someone > >>> pirated on > >>> to youtube. > >>> > >>> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, > engaging intellectually all > >>> the while. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the > privilege of spending an > >>>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting > Jerry Bruner and Carol > >>>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who > couldn't make the dinner - it > >>>> was > >>>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you > ever hear from Bruner? I > >>>> wonder if he's still active. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear Colleagues --- > >>>> > >>>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news > that Oliver Sacks has > >>>> succumbed to cancer. > >>>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. > >>>> mike > >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>> > >>>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM > >>>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; > Neurologist and Author > >>>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com > : Oliver Sacks Dies at > 82; Neurologist > >>>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> > >>>> By > >>>> GREGORY COWLES > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest > pathways in > >>>> best-selling > >>>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife > for a Hat,? achieving > >>>> a > >>>> level of renown rare among scientists. > >>>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://nyti.ms/1LL040D > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> > >>>> To > >>>> get unlimited access to all New York Times > articles, subscribe today. > >>>> See > >>>> Subscription Options. > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> > >>>> To > >>>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add > nytdirect@nytimes.com > to your > >>>> address book. Advertisement > >>>> > >>>> < > >>>> > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=1071d68d/49278277&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977432-August-C&ad=MistressAmerica_336x90-NOW&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efandango%2Ecom%2Fmistressamerica%5F182432%2Fmovieoverview > >>>> > > >>>> Copyright 2015 > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > >>>> > > >>>> | The New York Times Company > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > >>>> > > >>>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a > natural science with an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a > natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -------------- next part -------------- From mcole@ucsd.edu Mon Aug 31 20:59:48 2015 From: mcole@ucsd.edu (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:59:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: <55E521E1.3030706@mira.net> References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> <55E521E1.3030706@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy. Parts of the earlier sections of the book are at marxists.org for any who would seek the link between the view developed here and Luria's earlier career, including his connections with Eisenshtein. mike On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 8:56 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Romantic Science" by Luria, attached in HTML. > Andy > ------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 1/09/2015 1:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > > ?It might be helpful to this discussion if someone would post the chapter > on Romantic Science from Luria's autobiography which MUST be somewhere > public in pdf. It appears that I do not have one. > > After reading what the person said, then discussion of the ideas seems > appropriate. Ditto Sacks, who has written a couple of extended essay's on > his view of Romantic Science. > > It is true that the Russian psychologists, erudite as they were, were not > sociologists. Nor were they anthropologists. The nature of their enterprise > encompassed those fields and more. > > Doing Romantic Science and immersing oneself in the individual case in no > way excludes inclusion of sociology, anthropology, in their work. Nor does > Luria argue so. > > mike > ? > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:29 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > >> I think the problem with this view of romantic science is that it >> completely precludes building a psychology on a sociology. In that sense >> (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't a romantic scientist at all. Vygotsky >> certainly did not believe in "total immersion in the individual case"; >> such >> an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of theory. I'm not sure >> Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man with a Shattered Mind" and >> "The Memory of Mnemonist" are really exceptions. Remember the main >> criticism of Luria's book "The Nature of Human Conflicts" was always that >> it was too quantitative. >> >> There are, of course, some areas of psychology that are well studied as >> case histories. Recently, I've been looking into suicidology, and in >> particular the work of Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered the linguistic >> analysis of suicide notes (and who appears to have been influenced, as >> early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work on schizophrinia). >> Now you would think that if ever there was a field that would benefit from >> total immersion in the individual case, this is one. But Shneidman says >> that suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal phrases, and as a >> consequence very easy to code--and treat quantiatively (one of his first >> studies was simply to sort a pile of real and imitation suicide notes and >> carefully note the criteria he had when he made correct judgements). And >> of >> course the whole point of Durkheim's work on suicide is that the >> individual >> case can be utterly disregarded, since the great variations are >> sociological and the psychological variables all seem trivial, transient, >> or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide at a large scale (as we >> must >> these days). Shneidman says he has never read a suicide note he would want >> to have written. >> >> David Kellogg >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' style of Romantic >> > Science was his complete immersion in the individual case before him, >> and >> > development of a science of complete persons. The paradigm of this type >> of >> > science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative Science" I suppose. The >> > opposite is the study of just one aspect of each case, e.g. facial >> > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a "covering law" for just this >> > aspect. >> > Andy >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> > >> >> Mike, >> >> I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that naysayers were cited in >> >> reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering if some of that push >> back >> >> was related to his practice of romantic science, which, if I understand >> >> from things Andy has written, involves immersion in the phenomena of >> >> interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, for example, immersed >> >> himself in the phenomena of living things. His writing prefigures the >> cell >> >> as a unit of analysis, but the technology of microscopes could not >> confirm >> >> such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner and Sacks makes me >> >> wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at issue. Different >> styles >> >> of research bring different construals. This may be the bane of >> >> objectivist, empiricist science but does it really make Sacks less of a >> >> researcher and just a lowly clinician? >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our connections with Luria >> and >> >>> the fact that we >> >>> independently came to embrace the idea of a romantic science. He was a >> >>> shy >> >>> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, and the difference >> >>> between >> >>> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the interview with them that >> >>> someone >> >>> pirated on >> >>> to youtube. >> >>> >> >>> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, engaging intellectually >> all >> >>> the while. >> >>> >> >>> mike >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the privilege of spending an >> >>>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting Jerry Bruner and >> Carol >> >>>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who couldn't make the dinner - >> it >> >>>> was >> >>>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you ever hear from >> Bruner? I >> >>>> wonder if he's still active. >> >>>> >> >>>> Laura >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>> >> >>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear Colleagues --- >> >>>> >> >>>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news that Oliver Sacks >> has >> >>>> succumbed to cancer. >> >>>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. >> >>>> mike >> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> >>>> >> >>>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM >> >>>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; Neurologist and Author >> >>>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks >> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; >> Neurologist >> >>>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> > >> >>>> By >> >>>> GREGORY COWLES >> >>>> >> >>>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest pathways in >> >>>> best-selling >> >>>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat,? >> achieving >> >>>> a >> >>>> level of renown rare among scientists. >> >>>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: >> http://nyti.ms/1LL040D >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> > >> >>>> To >> >>>> get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. >> >>>> See >> >>>> Subscription Options. >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> > >> >>>> To >> >>>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to >> your >> >>>> address book. Advertisement >> >>>> >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=1071d68d/49278277&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977432-August-C&ad=MistressAmerica_336x90-NOW&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efandango%2Ecom%2Fmistressamerica%5F182432%2Fmovieoverview >> >>>> > >> >>>> Copyright 2015 >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> >>>> > >> >>>> | The New York Times Company >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> >>>> > >> >>>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an >> >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 31 21:14:42 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:14:42 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: <55E521E1.3030706@mira.net> References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> <55E521E1.3030706@mira.net> Message-ID: <55E52632.4080605@mira.net> There's a problem with this attachment. Let me try again. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 1/09/2015 1:56 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Romantic Science" by Luria, attached in HTML. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > On 1/09/2015 1:32 PM, mike cole wrote: >> ?It might be helpful to this discussion if someone would >> post the chapter on Romantic Science from Luria's >> autobiography which MUST be somewhere public in pdf. It >> appears that I do not have one. >> >> After reading what the person said, then discussion of >> the ideas seems appropriate. Ditto Sacks, who has written >> a couple of extended essay's on >> his view of Romantic Science. >> >> It is true that the Russian psychologists, erudite as >> they were, were not sociologists. Nor were they >> anthropologists. The nature of their enterprise >> encompassed those fields and more. >> >> Doing Romantic Science and immersing oneself in the >> individual case in no way excludes inclusion of >> sociology, anthropology, in their work. Nor does Luria >> argue so. >> >> mike >> ? >> >> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:29 PM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >> >> I think the problem with this view of romantic science >> is that it >> completely precludes building a psychology on a >> sociology. In that sense >> (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't a romantic scientist >> at all. Vygotsky >> certainly did not believe in "total immersion in the >> individual case"; such >> an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of >> theory. I'm not sure >> Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man with a >> Shattered Mind" and >> "The Memory of Mnemonist" are really exceptions. >> Remember the main >> criticism of Luria's book "The Nature of Human >> Conflicts" was always that >> it was too quantitative. >> >> There are, of course, some areas of psychology that >> are well studied as >> case histories. Recently, I've been looking into >> suicidology, and in >> particular the work of Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered >> the linguistic >> analysis of suicide notes (and who appears to have >> been influenced, as >> early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work >> on schizophrinia). >> Now you would think that if ever there was a field >> that would benefit from >> total immersion in the individual case, this is one. >> But Shneidman says >> that suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal >> phrases, and as a >> consequence very easy to code--and treat quantiatively >> (one of his first >> studies was simply to sort a pile of real and >> imitation suicide notes and >> carefully note the criteria he had when he made >> correct judgements). And of >> course the whole point of Durkheim's work on suicide >> is that the individual >> case can be utterly disregarded, since the great >> variations are >> sociological and the psychological variables all seem >> trivial, transient, >> or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide at a >> large scale (as we must >> these days). Shneidman says he has never read a >> suicide note he would want >> to have written. >> >> David Kellogg >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >> >> > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' >> style of Romantic >> > Science was his complete immersion in the individual >> case before him, and >> > development of a science of complete persons. The >> paradigm of this type of >> > science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative >> Science" I suppose. The >> > opposite is the study of just one aspect of each >> case, e.g. facial >> > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a >> "covering law" for just this >> > aspect. >> > Andy >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: >> > >> >> Mike, >> >> I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that >> naysayers were cited in >> >> reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering >> if some of that push back >> >> was related to his practice of romantic science, >> which, if I understand >> >> from things Andy has written, involves immersion in >> the phenomena of >> >> interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, >> for example, immersed >> >> himself in the phenomena of living things. His >> writing prefigures the cell >> >> as a unit of analysis, but the technology of >> microscopes could not confirm >> >> such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner >> and Sacks makes me >> >> wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at >> issue. Different styles >> >> of research bring different construals. This may be >> the bane of >> >> objectivist, empiricist science but does it really >> make Sacks less of a >> >> researcher and just a lowly clinician? >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole >> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our >> connections with Luria and >> >>> the fact that we >> >>> independently came to embrace the idea of a >> romantic science. He was a >> >>> shy >> >>> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, >> and the difference >> >>> between >> >>> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the >> interview with them that >> >>> someone >> >>> pirated on >> >>> to youtube. >> >>> >> >>> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, >> engaging intellectually all >> >>> the while. >> >>> >> >>> mike >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin >> > >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the >> privilege of spending an >> >>>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting >> Jerry Bruner and Carol >> >>>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who >> couldn't make the dinner - it >> >>>> was >> >>>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you >> ever hear from Bruner? I >> >>>> wonder if he's still active. >> >>>> >> >>>> Laura >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent from my iPad >> >>>> >> >>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole >> > wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear Colleagues --- >> >>>> >> >>>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news >> that Oliver Sacks has >> >>>> succumbed to cancer. >> >>>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. >> >>>> mike >> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> >>>> >> >>>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM >> >>>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; >> Neurologist and Author >> >>>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks >> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com >> : Oliver Sacks Dies at >> 82; Neurologist >> >>>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> >> >>>> By >> >>>> GREGORY COWLES >> >>>> >> >>>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest >> pathways in >> >>>> best-selling >> >>>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife >> for a Hat,? achieving >> >>>> a >> >>>> level of renown rare among scientists. >> >>>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: >> http://nyti.ms/1LL040D >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> >> >>>> To >> >>>> get unlimited access to all New York Times >> articles, subscribe today. >> >>>> See >> >>>> Subscription Options. >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> >> >>>> To >> >>>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add >> nytdirect@nytimes.com >> to your >> >>>> address book. Advertisement >> >>>> >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=1071d68d/49278277&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977432-August-C&ad=MistressAmerica_336x90-NOW&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efandango%2Ecom%2Fmistressamerica%5F182432%2Fmovieoverview >> >>>> > >> >>>> Copyright 2015 >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> >>>> > >> >>>> | The New York Times Company >> >>>> < >> >>>> >> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 >> >>>> > >> >>>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a >> natural science with an >> >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a >> natural science with an >> >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural >> science with an >> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 31 21:17:16 2015 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:17:16 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Oliver Sacks/Romantic Science In-Reply-To: References: <55E37E99.000004FA@pmta04.ewr1.nytimes.com> <12553216-10FA-4C70-8D8F-097266281640@gmail.com> <55E4EF7C.7090500@mira.net> Message-ID: <55E526CC.6080400@mira.net> Try this, in Word this time. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 1/09/2015 1:32 PM, mike cole wrote: > ?It might be helpful to this discussion if someone would > post the chapter on Romantic Science from Luria's > autobiography which MUST be somewhere public in pdf. It > appears that I do not have one. > > After reading what the person said, then discussion of the > ideas seems appropriate. Ditto Sacks, who has written a > couple of extended essay's on > his view of Romantic Science. > > It is true that the Russian psychologists, erudite as they > were, were not sociologists. Nor were they > anthropologists. The nature of their enterprise > encompassed those fields and more. > > Doing Romantic Science and immersing oneself in the > individual case in no way excludes inclusion of sociology, > anthropology, in their work. Nor does Luria argue so. > > mike > ? > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:29 PM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > I think the problem with this view of romantic science > is that it > completely precludes building a psychology on a > sociology. In that sense > (and in others), Vygotsky wasn't a romantic scientist > at all. Vygotsky > certainly did not believe in "total immersion in the > individual case"; such > an immersion is a refusal to rise to the level of > theory. I'm not sure > Luria was romantic that way either: "the Man with a > Shattered Mind" and > "The Memory of Mnemonist" are really exceptions. > Remember the main > criticism of Luria's book "The Nature of Human > Conflicts" was always that > it was too quantitative. > > There are, of course, some areas of psychology that > are well studied as > case histories. Recently, I've been looking into > suicidology, and in > particular the work of Edwin Shneidman, who pioneered > the linguistic > analysis of suicide notes (and who appears to have > been influenced, as > early as the 1970s, by Kasanin and by Vygotsky's work > on schizophrinia). > Now you would think that if ever there was a field > that would benefit from > total immersion in the individual case, this is one. > But Shneidman says > that suicide notes are mostly full of trite, banal > phrases, and as a > consequence very easy to code--and treat quantiatively > (one of his first > studies was simply to sort a pile of real and > imitation suicide notes and > carefully note the criteria he had when he made > correct judgements). And of > course the whole point of Durkheim's work on suicide > is that the individual > case can be utterly disregarded, since the great > variations are > sociological and the psychological variables all seem > trivial, transient, > or mutually cancelling when we look at suicide at a > large scale (as we must > these days). Shneidman says he has never read a > suicide note he would want > to have written. > > David Kellogg > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:21 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > As little as I understand it, Larry, Oliver Sacks' > style of Romantic > > Science was his complete immersion in the individual > case before him, and > > development of a science of complete persons. The > paradigm of this type of > > science was Luria. A limit case of "Qualitative > Science" I suppose. The > > opposite is the study of just one aspect of each > case, e.g. facial > > recognition, and the attempt to formulate a > "covering law" for just this > > aspect. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > On 1/09/2015 8:40 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote: > > > >> Mike, > >> I recall in an obituary in the NYTimes that > naysayers were cited in > >> reviewing Oliver Sacks? life work. I am wondering > if some of that push back > >> was related to his practice of romantic science, > which, if I understand > >> from things Andy has written, involves immersion in > the phenomena of > >> interest in search of a unit of analysis. Goethe, > for example, immersed > >> himself in the phenomena of living things. His > writing prefigures the cell > >> as a unit of analysis, but the technology of > microscopes could not confirm > >> such a unit until later on. Your contrasting Bruner > and Sacks makes me > >> wonder if the subject, not just the object, is at > issue. Different styles > >> of research bring different construals. This may be > the bane of > >> objectivist, empiricist science but does it really > make Sacks less of a > >> researcher and just a lowly clinician? > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 7:02 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Laura-- I knew Oliver primarily through our > connections with Luria and > >>> the fact that we > >>> independently came to embrace the idea of a > romantic science. He was a > >>> shy > >>> and diffident person. You can get that feeling, > and the difference > >>> between > >>> him and Jerry Bruner in this regard in the > interview with them that > >>> someone > >>> pirated on > >>> to youtube. > >>> > >>> Jerry is very old but last heard from by me, > engaging intellectually all > >>> the while. > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Laura Martin > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Thanks, Mike. A number of years ago I had the > privilege of spending an > >>>> evening with Sacks when Lena Luria was visiting > Jerry Bruner and Carol > >>>> Feldman in NY. I stood in for Sylvia who > couldn't make the dinner - it > >>>> was > >>>> an extraordinary evening in many ways. Do you > ever hear from Bruner? I > >>>> wonder if he's still active. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 30, 2015, at 3:29 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear Colleagues --- > >>>> > >>>> I am forwarding, with personal sadness, the news > that Oliver Sacks has > >>>> succumbed to cancer. > >>>> Its not a surprise, but a sad passing indeed. > >>>> mike > >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >>>> > >>>> Date: Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:07 PM > >>>> Subject: NYTimes.com: Oliver Sacks Dies at 82; > Neurologist and Author > >>>> Explored the Brain?s Quirks > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent by sashacole510@gmail.com > : Oliver Sacks Dies at > 82; Neurologist > >>>> and Author Explored the Brain?s Quirks > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> > >>>> By > >>>> GREGORY COWLES > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Sacks explored some of the brain?s strangest > pathways in > >>>> best-selling > >>>> case histories like ?The Man Who Mistook His Wife > for a Hat,? achieving > >>>> a > >>>> level of renown rare among scientists. > >>>> Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: > http://nyti.ms/1LL040D > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUieQKbejxL4a&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> > >>>> To > >>>> get unlimited access to all New York Times > articles, subscribe today. > >>>> See > >>>> Subscription Options. > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACDuqzkg7rwCIjbQiYyNWYJIW5drsCg04xD2q1X6bqVB/vYPHy+JP5GfoOOml3K0i6GaUY7fZ7jcK869mPAvEGfk=&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0> > >>>> To > >>>> ensure delivery to your inbox, please add > nytdirect@nytimes.com > to your > >>>> address book. Advertisement > >>>> > >>>> < > >>>> > http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=goto&opzn&page=secure.nytimes.com/mem/emailthis.html&pos=Frame6A&sn2=6da5bd5a/78e3a264&sn1=1071d68d/49278277&camp=FoxSearchlight_AT2015-1977432-August-C&ad=MistressAmerica_336x90-NOW&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efandango%2Ecom%2Fmistressamerica%5F182432%2Fmovieoverview > >>>> > > >>>> Copyright 2015 > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KVBjmEgFdYACMlEhIhWVuPIxganfKahJGpDcKtdpfztygRnz23j1z6nDpx4eAAqQbYRMMl5L56EeQ==&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > >>>> > > >>>> | The New York Times Company > >>>> < > >>>> > http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=4z5Q7LhI+KUv6vqdu/zT/DtUzLlQEcSh&user_id=bd31502e6eb851a9261827fdfbbcdf6d&email_type=eta&task_id=1440972441657668®i_id=0 > >>>> > > >>>> | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a > natural science with an > >>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a > natural science with an > >>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural > science with an > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ch10.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 28348 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20150901/f5a485f3/attachment.bin