[Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory
Huw Lloyd
huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
Mon Mar 31 11:46:57 PDT 2014
Its not clear to me that the sub-group, itself, is colluding in excluding
Mitchell's work. Rather, it seems to me that the sub-group are conforming
to a motive that places a priority on literally obeying the teacher rather
than exploring the subject matter itself, which may be more of a
class/school phenomenon of collusion: to guarantee approval one must do as
one is told. Actions that go beyond this (Mitchell's cube) do not serve
this activity, hence Mitchell appears to be addressing a different motive.
An interesting point, for me, is the tensions between the desirability for
a creative orientation to each subject and its obstruction by following an
instruction to the letter. It seems to me that students' desire to conform
inhibits their more profound orientation to the subject matter. I think
this "obedience anxiety" may be perfectly justified when the students do
not know how to be creative in this way, which also places a different
emphasis on valuation of students' contributions.
Best,
Huw
On 31 March 2014 09:51, Donna Kotsopoulos <dkotsopo@wlu.ca> wrote:
> Very interesting substitution!
>
>
>
> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor
> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics
> Wilfrid Laurier University
> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K
> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5
> (519) 884-0710 x 3953
> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos
> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended
> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any
> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited.
> >>> On 3/31/2014 at 1:26 AM, in message <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net>, Andy
> Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> Now that you mention it, Mike, I'd say "collusion" is just a way of
> characterising collaboration in the case of there being something
> illegitimate about the object of the collaboration.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>
>
> mike cole wrote:
> > Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word
> > collaboration,
> > Andy?
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Donna,
> > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of
> > theories here. Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study
> > of how people are positioned by and for collaboration, taken
> > together with Vygotsky's cultural psychology and the tradition of
> > acivity theory, seems quite enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an
> > approach to how concepts are formed, through the collaborative use
> > of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that self-concept is an
> > important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to see every
> > collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we
> > are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of
> > actions by different individuals, and "different points of view."
> >
> > Andy
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >
> >
> > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote:
> >
> > The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration
> > has taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one
> > storyline infecting another - both at the group level and at
> > the individual level. I believe that an individual can rewrite
> > those storylines or make conscious choices to adopt a
> > different version. I'm not fully familiar with this literature
> > but I think the theory of mind research and "theory of self"
> > here would be a useful.
> > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D.
> > Associate Professor
> > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of
> > Mathematics
> > Wilfrid Laurier University
> > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K
> > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5
> > (519) 884-0710 x 3953
> > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos
> > <http://www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos>
> > <http://www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos>
> > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains <http://www.wlu.ca/mathbrains>
> > <http://www.wlu.ca/mathbrains>
> > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it,
> > is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned
> > above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying
> > or other use is strictly prohibited.
> > >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message
> > <53376899.7060408@mira.net
> > <mailto:53376899.7060408@mira.net>>, Andy Blunden
> > <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > I'm learning a lot from all this! :)
> > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were
> > to ask "How
> > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the
> artist
> > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has
> > acquired the
> > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they
> are
> > somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles"
> > (?) are
> > meaningful.
> > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place
> > to a great
> > extent before the collaborators meet.
> > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected
> > modes of
> > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the
> > classroom.
> > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which
> > pre-exist
> > their instantiation in any collaborative act.
> > Andy
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >
> >
> > Greg Thompson wrote:
> > > Lynda,
> > > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is
> > at the center
> > > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note
> > that
> > > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly)
> > inevitable. On the
> > > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to
> > collaborate, and
> > > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional
> > education
> > > (which is, by implication, not collaborative).
> > >
> > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is
> > collaborative
> > > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in
> a
> > > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we
> > find in
> > > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of
> > collaboration for
> > > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna
> > describes appear
> > > not to be good for everyone.
> > >
> > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which
> > "collaboration" is
> > > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in
> > which it must
> > > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means -
> "collaborative
> > > classrooms".
> > >
> > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between
> > folks discussing
> > > on the listserve.
> > >
> > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work
> > still to be
> > > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of
> > "collaboration"
> > > and notions of "classroom collaboration".
> > >
> > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected
> > places (e.g.
> > > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different
> > configurations of
> > > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different
> > children. And
> > > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom
> > > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?!
> > >
> > > So then with this distinction, we might say that
> > "collaborative classrooms"
> > > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the
> > many problems
> > > that confront us without some form of "collaboration."
> > >
> > > That's just my two nickels worth.
> > > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation).
> > > -greg
> > >
> > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an
> > activity which I can
> > > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my
> > activity is
> > > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the
> > material of my
> > > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the
> > language in which
> > > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity,
> > and therefore
> > > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society
> > and with the
> > > consciousness of myself as a social being."
> > > Marx, 1844, p. 298
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda
> > <lstone@skymail.csus.edu <mailto:lstone@skymail.csus.edu>>wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi Greg!
> > >>
> > >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but
> > I'm dropping in
> > >> to make
> > >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help.
> > >>
> > >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory
> > of the
> > >> conversation
> > >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded
> > in a Marxist
> > >> angle, equally
> > >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to
> > collaborate---we come
> > >> with the
> > >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally
> > collaborative
> > >> process. So, each
> > >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to
> > some relatively
> > >> shared
> > >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an
> > identity, and so
> > >> forth, they are engaged
> > >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child
> > taking part in an
> > >> event/activity. And,
> > >> because events/activities come into existence through
> > discourse practices
> > >> and are influenced
> > >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to
> > the larger
> > >> culture), to understand
> > >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an
> > understanding
> > >> of the situation
> > >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so,
> > collaboration
> > >> in educational settings
> > >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement
> > in contrast to
> > >> traditional educational
> > >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a
> > developmental process, just
> > >> as infants learn how over
> > >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures.
> > >>
> > >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are
> > needed at this
> > >> moment? And, "how
> > >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many
> > other contextual
> > >> questions that can
> > >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should
> > collaboration be
> > >> configured. For example,
> > >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right)
> > >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under
> > >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each
> > other and how is
> > >> this related to the social
> > >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context
> > shapes what
> > >> collaboration means and as a
> > >> consequence influences the social processes that enable
> > children to
> > >> cooperate (or not) with each other.
> > >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points
> > out, is a
> > >> positioning process---one that is also
> > >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of
> > engaging in
> > >> learning activity with others.
> > >>
> > >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out
> > >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings
> > >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper
> > has certainly
> > >> pushed my thinking--
> > >>
> > >> An appreciative lurker!
> > >> -lynda
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> What KINDS of
> > >>
> > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they
> > be configured.
> > >>>
> > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a
> > definitional
> > >>>
> > >> problem
> > >>
> > >>> here: What is collaboration?
> > >>>
> > >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that
> > to be human is
> > >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are
> > collaborative all the
> > >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all
> > classrooms are
> > >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed
> > researchers think.
> > >>>
> > >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much
> > theorizing about
> > >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says
> > that students
> > >>>
> > >> begin
> > >>
> > >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an
> > activity that one must
> > >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else
> > for that matter).
> > >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen
> > as exceptions to
> > >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the
> > norm. And in
> > >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has
> > a very
> > >>>
> > >> particular
> > >>
> > >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather
> > this is true
> > >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper).
> > >>>
> > >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world
> > that follows
> > >>>
> > >> this
> > >>
> > >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams."
> > Again, this
> > >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something
> > different from
> > >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have
> > them work
> > >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of
> > interaction.
> > >>>
> > >> Some
> > >>
> > >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of
> > Donna's points).
> > >>>
> > >> But
> > >>
> > >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is
> > something
> > >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going
> > after. And in
> > >>>
> > >> the
> > >>
> > >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of
> > "collaborative
> > >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in
> > education is
> > >>>
> > >> sold
> > >>
> > >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak
> > view of
> > >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has
> > done).
> > >>>
> > >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction
> > to pursue the
> > >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is
> > this discourse
> > >>>
> > >> about
> > >>
> > >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the
> fundamental
> > >>>
> > >> assumptions
> > >>
> > >>> that serve as the starting point against which
> > "collaborative classrooms"
> > >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's
> > thinking, isn't
> > >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in
> > the class
> > >>>
> > >> clown's
> > >>
> > >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the
> > conspiring against the
> > >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another
> > class or the
> > >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd
> > find that even
> > >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive
> > collaborations in this
> > >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during
> > those times that
> > >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work").
> > >>>
> > >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question
> > of "to
> > >>>
> > >> collaborate
> > >>
> > >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What
> > KINDS of
> > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they
> > be configured.
> > >>>
> > >>> Collaboration anyone?
> > >>> -greg
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos
> > <dkotsopo@wlu.ca <mailto:dkotsopo@wlu.ca>>
> > >>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this
> > >>>>
> > >> invitation. I
> > >>
> > >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched
> > my thinking
> > >>>>
> > >> in a
> > >>
> > >>>> number of ways.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their
> > best interest
> > >>>>
> > >> to
> > >>
> > >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them
> > collaborate, may
> > >>>>
> > >> not
> > >>
> > >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful.
> > That student
> > >>>>
> > >> that
> > >>
> > >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise
> > something in such
> > >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual
> well
> > >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any
> > collaborative
> > >>>>
> > >> effort
> > >>
> > >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very
> > essence of
> > >>>>
> > >> human
> > >>
> > >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the
> > compromise that
> > >>>>
> > >> must
> > >>
> > >>>> be weighted.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work
> > with if given
> > >>>>
> > >> the
> > >>
> > >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small
> > group. I would
> > >>>>
> > >> surmise
> > >>
> > >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have
> > been "nice"
> > >>>>
> > >> students,
> > >>
> > >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She
> > would have
> > >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her
> > standards, and
> > >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another
> > interesting
> > >>>>
> > >> case.
> > >>
> > >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in
> > regardless of the group
> > >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year.
> > She would
> > >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to
> > her end.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have
> > done the work for
> > >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of
> > the context.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> d.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D.
> > >>>> Associate Professor
> > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of
> > Mathematics
> > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University
> > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K
> > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5
> > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953
> > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos
> > <http://www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos>
> > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains <http://www.wlu.ca/mathbrains>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with
> > it, is intended
> > >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as
> > recipient(s).
> > >>>>
> > >> Any
> > >>
> > >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is
> > strictly prohibited.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message
> > <53357F22.1070109@mira.net <mailto:53357F22.1070109@mira.net>>,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >>>> Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time
> > and energy to
> > >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make
> > sense to say
> > >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in
> > their best
> > >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this
> > question must be
> > >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best
> > interest of this
> > >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What
> > types of
> > >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the
> > detailed mechanisms
> > >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which
> > may be damaging
> > >>>> to them.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Andy
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> *Andy Blunden*
> > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human
> > relationship is an
> > >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more
> > realistic
> > >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in
> > order. There is
> > >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is
> > true in
> > >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework
> > for these types
> > >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions
> > in a school
> > >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to
> > include the
> > >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to
> > productive
> > >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts
> > as productive
> > >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical
> > evaluation of
> > >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > >>> Assistant Professor
> > >>> Department of Anthropology
> > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > >>> Brigham Young University
> > >>> Provo, UT 84602
> > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
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