From smago@uga.edu Sun Mar 2 10:55:03 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 18:55:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?windows-1252?q?What_Faces_Can=92t_Tell_Us?= Message-ID: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> The following essay appeared in today?s New York Times Week in Review. I began reading it out of interest but in the short time it took to read it, had rolled my eyes in disbelief enough to make me dizzy. The author makes a reference to Darwin in a manner that appears made up. The interpretation of data reminds me of Luria?s interactions with Rakmat and difficulty in understanding his cultural approaches to organizing materials and ideas. The reference to autism as an ?illness? is bizarrely dated. Lab experiments ares viewed as definitive in interpreting real social interactions. And yet, this is the sort of research that gets heavily funded; and the researchers are then valued institutionally, because they bring in money, for what I consider to be superficial work that would fall apart in a real setting with real emotions on the line. It takes a stab at being cultural by claiming to have found evidence against universals, but the conclusions strike me as reverting back to individualistic, acultural accounts of human activity. I?d be interested in hearing from others to see if my response is in agreement with cultural-historical principles or not. p What Faces Can?t Tell Us FEB. 28, 2014 By LISA FELDMAN BARRETT CAN you detect someone?s emotional state just by looking at his face? It sure seems like it. In everyday life, you can often ?read? what someone is feeling with the quickest of glances. Hundreds of scientific studies support the idea that the face is a kind of emotional beacon, clearly and universally signaling the full array of human sentiments, from fear and anger to joy and surprise. Increasingly, companies like Apple and government agencies like the Transportation Security Administration are banking on this transparency, developing software to identify consumers? moods or training programs to gauge the intent of airline passengers. The same assumption is at work in the field of mental health, where illnesses like autism and schizophrenia are often treated in part by training patients to distinguish emotions by facial expression. But this assumption is wrong. Several recent and forthcoming research papers from the Interdisciplinary Affective Science Laboratory, which I direct, suggest that human facial expressions, viewed on their own, are not universally understood. The pioneering work in the field of ?emotion recognition? was conducted in the 1960s by a team of scientists led by the psychologist Paul Ekman. Research subjects were asked to look at photographs of facial expressions (smiling, scowling and so on) and match them to a limited set of emotion words (happiness, anger and so on) or to stories with phrases like ?Her husband recently died.? Most subjects, even those from faraway cultures with little contact with Western civilization, were extremely good at this task, successfully matching the photos most of the time. Over the following decades, this method of studying emotion recognition has been replicated by other scientists hundreds of times. In recent years, however, at my laboratory we began to worry that this research method was flawed. In particular, we suspected that by providing subjects with a preselected set of emotion words, these experiments had inadvertently ?primed? the subjects ? in effect, hinting at the answers ? and thus skewed the results. To test this hypothesis, we ran some preliminary studies, some of which were later published in the journal Emotion, in which subjects were not given any clues and instead were asked to freely describe the emotion on a face (or to view two faces and answer yes or no as to whether they expressed the same emotion). The subjects? performance plummeted. In additional studies, also published or soon to be published in Emotion, we took steps to further prevent our subjects from being primed, and their performance plummeted even more ? indeed, their performance was comparable to that of people suffering from semantic dementia, who can distinguish positive from negative emotion in faces, but nothing finer. We even tested non-Western subjects, sending an expedition to Namibia to work with a remote tribe called the Himba. In this experiment, we presented Himba subjects with 36 photographs of six actors each making six facial expressions: smiling, scowling, pouting, wide-eyed and so on. When we asked the subjects to sort the faces by how the actors were feeling, the Himba placed all the smiling faces into a single pile, most of the wide-eyed faces into a second pile, and the remaining piles were mixed. When asked to label their piles, the Himba subjects did not use words like ?happy? and ?afraid? but rather words like ?laughing? and ?looking.? If the emotional content of facial expressions were in fact universal, the Himba subjects would have sorted the photographs into six piles by expression, but they did not. These findings strongly suggest that emotions are not universally recognized in facial expressions, challenging the theory, attributed to Charles Darwin, that facial movements might be evolved behaviors for expressing emotion. If faces do not ?speak for themselves,? how do we manage to ?read? other people? The answer is that we don?t passively recognize emotions but actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide variety of contextual clues ? a body position, a hand gesture, a vocalization, the social setting and so on. The psychologist Hillel Aviezer has done experiments in which he grafted together face and body photos from people portraying different emotions. When research subjects were asked to judge the feeling being communicated, the emotion associated with the body nearly always trumped the one associated with the face. For example, when shown a scowling (angry) face attached to a body holding a soiled object (disgust), subjects nearly always identified the emotion as disgust, not anger. You can certainly be expert at ?reading? other people. But you ? and Apple, and the Transportation Security Administration ? should know that the face isn?t telling the whole story. Lisa Feldman Barrett is a professor of psychology at Northeastern University and the director of the Interdisciplinary Affective Science Laboratory. A version of this op-ed appears in print on March 2, 2014, on page SR12 of the New York edition with the headline: What Faces Can?t Tell Us. Order Reprints|Today's Paper|Subscribe From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 2 16:16:45 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 00:16:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?windows-1252?q?What_Faces_Can=92t_Tell_Us?= In-Reply-To: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > If faces do not ?speak for themselves,? how do we manage to ?read? other people? The answer is that we don?t passively recognize emotions but actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide variety of contextual clues ? a body position, a hand gesture, a vocalization, the social setting and so on. Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's laboratory research, but personally I find these conclusions more convincing than the notion that there is a universal code of facial muscle movements. Martin From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 2 23:17:01 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 23:17:01 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Martin, Peter, How do we *read* facial expressions? I recently read an article by John Shotter in the January 2014 Theory & Psychology Journal. The article explores the concept of *agential realism* I wrote to John asking if it was possible to access any writings that covered similar themes and he sent an earlier copy of the article with errors. However, he did say that this 1st draft was ok to email to others. Therefore I'm attaching the paper and hoping it may generate some commentary. I want to emphasize the theme of this paper exploring an *aspect* of our human nature and therefore acknowledging that other *aspects* are moved to the background when *wayfinding* [see Ingold] is elevated to the foreground. In the article even the notion of *foreground* and *background* are put in question as stable concepts. *agential realism* posits a fluidity between what we consider AS an 'object' and what we consider 'subject. On page 7 of this article John writes: "But it is when we turn to events happening within our immersion in the process of speech communication that Polanyi's terminology comes especially into its own. For here we find the operation of something like a 'prosthetic-tool-text ambiguity', a dynamic shifting occurring within a fraction of a second, within which ASPECTS of utterances which are at one moment between being treated as agential, as *doing* something, as performatives, as a *saying* are treated the next as an objective *done thing*, as something *said* " The way we *read faces* within our dynamic wayfinding [orienting] is explored as INTRA-active in contrast to INTER-active ways of finding our way. I am cautious when putting this article forward to recognize that by drawing attention to wayfinding as orienting does not imply that other *aspects* [sedimented rituals for example] are not also critical as *aspects* of our human nature. However, John is re-directing our *attention* to realms such as *reading* facial expressions and *reading* speech acts that are operating in plain view but go unnoticed. I wonder how others respond to his exploration of the concept of *agential realism*? Larry Purss On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > If faces do not "speak for themselves," how do we manage to "read" other > people? The answer is that we don't passively recognize emotions but > actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide variety > of contextual clues -- a body position, a hand gesture, a vocalization, the > social setting and so on. > > Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's laboratory > research, but personally I find these conclusions more convincing than the > notion that there is a universal code of facial muscle movements. > > Martin > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MARCH 1 2014 SHOTTER JOHN On Relational Things and Performative Understandings.doc Type: application/msword Size: 101888 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140302/03ba21f2/attachment.doc From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 3 03:03:40 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:03:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?windows-1252?q?What_Faces_Can=92t_Tell_Us?= In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I don't think the only alternative to universals is a different form of individualized, acontextual inferencing. There's no effort to understand how the "subjects" from tribal societies came to form their responses. I don't see the lab as having any potential for a cultural-historical approach. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can?t Tell Us On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > If faces do not ?speak for themselves,? how do we manage to ?read? other people? The answer is that we don?t passively recognize emotions but actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide variety of contextual clues ? a body position, a hand gesture, a vocalization, the social setting and so on. Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's laboratory research, but personally I find these conclusions more convincing than the notion that there is a universal code of facial muscle movements. Martin From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 3 08:34:32 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:34:32 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] WAYFINDING Message-ID: I sent an attachment yesterday from John Shotter. However, it was not the article I intended to send but rather another article he sent on the same theme of wayfinding. Here is the link to the intended article. I hope it is able to open as I sent as a goggle document but saved to Microsoft's Onedrive cloud service I appreciated John sending me these articles to share with others Larry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MARCH 1 2014 SHOTTER JOHN Agential Realism Social Constructionism.doc Type: application/msword Size: 153088 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140303/43d01adf/attachment.doc From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 3 08:47:17 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 16:47:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WAYFINDING In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 March 2014 16:34, Larry Purss wrote: > I sent an attachment yesterday from John Shotter. > However, it was not the article I intended to send but rather another > article he sent on the same theme of wayfinding. > Here is the link to the intended article. > I hope it is able to open as I sent as a goggle document but saved to > Microsoft's Onedrive cloud service > That came through fine, Larry. Best, Huw > > I appreciated John sending me these articles to share with others > Larry > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 3 11:56:17 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:56:17 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: WAYFINDING In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a moment to reflect further on a key theme of John's article [Agential Realism, Performative Understandings, and Social Construction: Giving Our Living Relations to Our Surroundings Their Due] I would like to draw attention to the section titled [Resolving Ambiguities, Indeterminacies and Fluidities in Understanding Speech] On page 8 John refers to a *prosthetic-tool-text AMBIGUITY* which in a few paragraphs opens up 3 *aspects* of wayfinding as a fluid dynamic emerging phenomena. Each of these aspects is NOT pre-existing *things* or *essences* or *states* which are THEN brought into INTER-action. These 3 *aspects* emerge WITHIN our INTRA-actions. The shift from inter-actions TO intra-actions as involving all 3 *aspects* within a fluid phenomenology is the theme of this sub-section of the paper. Now the concepts *prosthetics* *tools* and *text* each have critical significance in our wayfinding orienting, each becoming visible according to the different directions of our view. and the *modes* enacted. Here is John's reflections from page 8 on the different *modes* of being. *prosthetics* Our words [wordings] may reside on the side of the agent, on the subjective side of the subjective/objective CUT and from our *dwelling* in our wordings over time, we can LEARN how to EXTEND our bodily movements and sensitivities THROUGH the instrumental MEANS they provide to *reach into* spheres of experience otherwise unavailable to us. In THIS mode, wordings become *transparent* [blind people using a prosthetic device do not need to *infer* AS IF solving a problem that the path is rough. They experience it directly AS a rough path]. In a similar WAY by acting prosthetically THROUGH our words we can also discover the *inner landscape* within which we and others live our lives. *tools* When the flow of activities MEDIATED by our wordings breaks down [interrupted in some way] or our wordings are separated out from our wayfinding in some WAY [just as when a tool is damaged to use Heidegger's example] we become aware of our wordings AS *nameable instruments AS SUCH. But becoming *tools* these wordings become unsuitable AS *ready-to-hand* equipment and become CONSPICUOUS AS *present-to-hand* things, objects, tools. [i.e. FROM being transparent in their use the wordings become *opaque* and AS SUCH only have meaning IF placed within an *interpretive schema*, a conceptual or theoretical *framework*] But in being cut from the flow of activity WITHIN which the wordings have their *life* the wordings will loose what unique *performative* functions they had in that unique flow AND SIMPLY TAKE ON one size fits all *conventional* meanings and definitions *texts* Texts are the retrospective sedimented *traditions*, the cultural-historical formations that we are born into. THIS textual RETROSPECTIVE *mode* is as critical within the prosthetic-tool-text AMBIGUITY as the prosthetic-tool modes WITHIN the fluid dynamic wayfinding of our human nature. John Shotter draws our attention to this AMBIGUITY AS *intra* not *inter* activity. I found this way of exploring wayfinding inspirational Larry On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > I sent an attachment yesterday from John Shotter. > However, it was not the article I intended to send but rather another > article he sent on the same theme of wayfinding. > Here is the link to the intended article. > I hope it is able to open as I sent as a goggle document but saved to > Microsoft's Onedrive cloud service > > I appreciated John sending me these articles to share with others > Larry > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 4 06:22:49 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:22:49 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Question on Developing Empathy Message-ID: A further response to John Shotter's exploration on subjective/objective cuts as fluid dynamic wayfinding [orienting] John concludes the paper on agential realism on page 19 with a question, in which he is inviting our answer-ability. In re-stating this question on the theme of *empathy* I hope this concrete question may generate responses which are relevant for how we go on together. The last paragraph on page 19 in which he leads up to the question is re-stated: All this is quite revolutionary. Much of what we have taken as *basic* to our inquiries, e.g., the variables whose effects in social life we seek to understand, such as race, ethnicity, culture, age, social class; processes such as motivation, perception, cognition; things such as emotions, excuses, justifications, and so on, and so on, we come to realize are all, in fact, AFTER THE FACT outcomes of our inquiries. Further, when in cognitive neuroscience in particular we read such sentences as: "Empathy draws on these bodily and limbic shifts in a process called 'interoception' in which we perceive inward ... [where] interoception, interpretation, and attribution are the proposed steps of empathy carried out by the pre-frontal region [of the brain]"(Seigal, 2007, p.168) we must ASK OURSELVES whether anything in this account actually relates to phenomena in people's everyday activities we call empathic [Frankfurt, 1998]? Also, could we ever possibly apply these supposed 'elements' in actually helping someone deficient in empathy to come to SHOW empathy more in their daily practice, say, in nursing elderly patients - or is it the case that the empathic conduct of an everyday practice needs to be LEARNED by quite some other means than by building it up, piece by piece, from objective elements according to PRE-ESTABLISHED principles? To repeat the point made above, all these nominalized 'things' are FORESHADOWED in the very WAY in which we, prior to the conduct of our investigations, commit ourselves to a particular way of LOOKING AT the matter - "the decisive movement of the conjuring trick has been made," says Wittgenstein (1953), "and it was the very one that we thought quite innocent." I, at work in schools, ask similar questions about *developing* empathy and believe John Shotter in this article offers an answer which invites further commentary. His central insight is that by enacting agential cuts AS performances we divide ourselves into ASPECTS which DO the sensing AND ASPECTS of ourselves that are subjected to what is sensed. In other words our *findings* cannot be taken AS *basic* but are actually developed WITHIN our practices John's conclusion is hermeneutical, inviting further answer-ability. I believe his questions and answers are relevant to *developing* empathy WITHIN our WAYS of orienting each in the other. Larry From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Mar 4 18:00:39 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 18:00:39 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Peter. "The lab" ? Ruled out? I read Martin as saying that context and interpretation would be central. Is it this particular study you are apparently disagreeing about? He says its better than universalism (a la Ekman, I assume). No 'round here more sensitive to issues of experimental (laboratory?) studies and cross cultural research so I am a little lost. I have not had a chance to read John Shotter's piece that Larry sent and wants to discuss. I am assuming they are part of the same discussion.Is that supposition correct? I am a little confused. What is at issue here? Help gratefully accepted. mike On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I don't think the only alternative to universals is a different form of > individualized, acontextual inferencing. There's no effort to understand > how the "subjects" from tribal societies came to form their responses. I > don't see the lab as having any potential for a cultural-historical > approach. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John > Packer > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:17 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > If faces do not "speak for themselves," how do we manage to "read" other > people? The answer is that we don't passively recognize emotions but > actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide variety > of contextual clues -- a body position, a hand gesture, a vocalization, the > social setting and so on. > > Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's laboratory > research, but personally I find these conclusions more convincing than the > notion that there is a universal code of facial muscle movements. > > Martin > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Mar 4 19:17:18 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 19:17:18 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Developing Empathy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing with email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of the rain we asked for. Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join the discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too little interaction, speaking personally. So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I believe that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories about how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, it is retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that construction are, in the aggregate, human culture. Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences of vicious circles and spirals of development. As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with undergraduates at a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the development of others. Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in how fragile and pre- occupying they are. mike On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > A further response to John Shotter's exploration on subjective/objective > cuts as fluid dynamic wayfinding [orienting] > > John concludes the paper on agential realism on page 19 with a question, in > which he is inviting our answer-ability. In re-stating this question on the > theme of *empathy* I hope this concrete question may generate responses > which are relevant for how we go on together. > > The last paragraph on page 19 in which he leads up to the question is > re-stated: > > All this is quite revolutionary. Much of what we have taken as *basic* to > our inquiries, e.g., the variables whose effects in social life we seek to > understand, such as race, ethnicity, culture, age, social class; processes > such as motivation, perception, cognition; things such as emotions, > excuses, justifications, and so on, and so on, we come to realize are all, > in fact, AFTER THE FACT outcomes of our inquiries. Further, when in > cognitive neuroscience in particular we read such sentences as: "Empathy > draws on these bodily and limbic shifts in a process called 'interoception' > in which we perceive inward ... [where] interoception, interpretation, and > attribution are the proposed steps of empathy carried out by the > pre-frontal region [of the brain]"(Seigal, 2007, p.168) we must ASK > OURSELVES whether anything in this account actually relates to phenomena in > people's everyday activities we call empathic [Frankfurt, 1998]? > Also, could we ever possibly apply these supposed 'elements' in actually > helping someone deficient in empathy to come to SHOW empathy more in their > daily practice, say, in nursing elderly patients - or is it the case that > the empathic conduct of an everyday practice needs to be LEARNED by quite > some other means than by building it up, piece by piece, from objective > elements according to PRE-ESTABLISHED principles? To repeat the point made > above, all these nominalized 'things' are FORESHADOWED in the very WAY in > which we, prior to the conduct of our investigations, commit ourselves to a > particular way of LOOKING AT the matter - "the decisive movement of the > conjuring trick has been made," says Wittgenstein (1953), "and it was the > very one that we thought quite innocent." > > I, at work in schools, ask similar questions about *developing* empathy and > believe John Shotter in this article offers an answer which invites further > commentary. His central insight is that by enacting agential cuts AS > performances we divide ourselves into ASPECTS which DO the sensing > AND ASPECTS of ourselves that are subjected to what is sensed. In other > words our *findings* cannot be taken AS *basic* but are actually developed > WITHIN our practices > > John's conclusion is hermeneutical, inviting further answer-ability. I > believe his questions and answers are relevant to *developing* empathy > WITHIN our WAYS of orienting each in the other. > Larry > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 4 20:05:08 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:05:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Developing Empathy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My two favorite quotes I've come across today: 1. "The end of all education should surely be service to others." - Cesar Chavez 2. "There the students engaged in a variety of mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the development of others." - Mike Cole -greg On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing with > email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of the > rain > we asked for. > > Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join the > discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too little > interaction, speaking personally. > > So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I believe > that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a > foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories about > how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the > limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, it is > retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that construction > are, in the aggregate, human culture. > > Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences of > vicious circles and spirals of development. > > As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with undergraduates at > a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of > mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through > empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the > development of others. > > Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be > sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in how > fragile and pre- occupying they are. > > mike > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > A further response to John Shotter's exploration on subjective/objective > > cuts as fluid dynamic wayfinding [orienting] > > > > John concludes the paper on agential realism on page 19 with a question, > in > > which he is inviting our answer-ability. In re-stating this question on > the > > theme of *empathy* I hope this concrete question may generate responses > > which are relevant for how we go on together. > > > > The last paragraph on page 19 in which he leads up to the question is > > re-stated: > > > > All this is quite revolutionary. Much of what we have taken as *basic* to > > our inquiries, e.g., the variables whose effects in social life we seek > to > > understand, such as race, ethnicity, culture, age, social class; > processes > > such as motivation, perception, cognition; things such as emotions, > > excuses, justifications, and so on, and so on, we come to realize are > all, > > in fact, AFTER THE FACT outcomes of our inquiries. Further, when in > > cognitive neuroscience in particular we read such sentences as: "Empathy > > draws on these bodily and limbic shifts in a process called > 'interoception' > > in which we perceive inward ... [where] interoception, interpretation, > and > > attribution are the proposed steps of empathy carried out by the > > pre-frontal region [of the brain]"(Seigal, 2007, p.168) we must ASK > > OURSELVES whether anything in this account actually relates to phenomena > in > > people's everyday activities we call empathic [Frankfurt, 1998]? > > Also, could we ever possibly apply these supposed 'elements' in actually > > helping someone deficient in empathy to come to SHOW empathy more in > their > > daily practice, say, in nursing elderly patients - or is it the case that > > the empathic conduct of an everyday practice needs to be LEARNED by quite > > some other means than by building it up, piece by piece, from objective > > elements according to PRE-ESTABLISHED principles? To repeat the point > made > > above, all these nominalized 'things' are FORESHADOWED in the very WAY > in > > which we, prior to the conduct of our investigations, commit ourselves > to a > > particular way of LOOKING AT the matter - "the decisive movement of the > > conjuring trick has been made," says Wittgenstein (1953), "and it was the > > very one that we thought quite innocent." > > > > I, at work in schools, ask similar questions about *developing* empathy > and > > believe John Shotter in this article offers an answer which invites > further > > commentary. His central insight is that by enacting agential cuts AS > > performances we divide ourselves into ASPECTS which DO the sensing > > AND ASPECTS of ourselves that are subjected to what is sensed. In other > > words our *findings* cannot be taken AS *basic* but are actually > developed > > WITHIN our practices > > > > John's conclusion is hermeneutical, inviting further answer-ability. I > > believe his questions and answers are relevant to *developing* empathy > > WITHIN our WAYS of orienting each in the other. > > Larry > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:26:57 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 21:26:57 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE Message-ID: Mike, Thanks for the suggestion to invite john to respond. I am including him using an address different from the one you used. John, Here is Mike's response which included you in the address: Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing with email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of the rain we asked for. Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join the discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too little interaction, speaking personally. So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I believe that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories about how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, it is retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that construction are, in the aggregate, human culture. Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences of vicious circles and spirals of development. As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with undergraduates at a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the development of others. Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in how fragile and pre- occupying they are.o you and myself: Mike, Yes, I understand John indicating that an ASPECT of performative practices [always emotive] is the *mode* of retrospective constructions. I understand THIS mode as captured by John using the concept *text* Mike you in quotes mention THIS mode as using *tools* of that retrospective construction. I believe John is using the concept *tools* in a more limited sense as existing as *relata* [in relation to *prosthetics*] When performative practices use *prosthetics* our experience is EXTENDED but AS prosthetics the use is transparent and our performances are expressed THROUGH the use of the prosthetics from the subjective side of performative practices. However, when the use of the prosthetics is disrupted in use THEN we become aware [conscious] that we are using prosthetics and in this awareness the prosthetics BECOME opaque [and become conscious AS *tools*. If I have read John as he intended then *texts* *prosthetics* and *tools* are various ASPECTS [not parts] of a dynamic FLUID *intra*-action which is always AMBIGUOUS and moving within our performative practices. In other words AS retrospective constructions we are foregrounding the *text aspect* within the *prosthetic-tool-text* ambiguity. In other words the multiple *aspects* of our orienting [wayfinding] to our surroundings express fluidly flowing *modes* of awareness which cannot be pre-determined AS pre-existing subjective and objective aspects of performative practices. The differentiation into prosthetics, tools, and texts come into existence WITHIN our practices. [NOT prior to which is an *inter*-action picture] The radical phenomena John is asking us to focus on is the *felt tendency* PRIOR TO differentiating this fluid *intra*-action AS INVOLVING *prosthetics*, tools*, or *texts*. THIS fluidity is always in fact *ambiguous* and cannot ever be finalized. Mike, I hope John will add his voice to my *reading* and elaborate on the *text* aspect which is so prominent in Gadamer's project of philosophical hermeneutics. John is exploring *wayfinding* within our *intra*-actions and discusses *prosthetics* *tools* and *texts* AS moments within our WAYS of orienting. ALWAYS fluid, flowing dynamic phenomena, ALWAYS ambiguous, ALWAYS partially open, and involving multiple *aspects* including prosthetics, tools, and texts. John, if I have mis-read your intent I ask others to read your article. This article is participating in [and extending using text] a tradition which also includes James, Dewey, Gadamer, Merleau-Ponty, Gibson, Wittgenstein, and Karen Barard. XMCA incarnates this *spirit* and I hope we generate further participation within this textual tradition. Larry From yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi Wed Mar 5 00:30:26 2014 From: yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Engestr=F6m=2C_Yrj=F6_H_M=22?=) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 10:30:26 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Developing Empathy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BF19C8F-8061-41F5-B9BE-A66ADF570D0A@helsinki.fi> Mike, I am completing a paper on vicious and expansive circles and their interplay. In your message below, the sentence marked in red is so much right on the money that I would like to use it as a motto in the paper (with the source appropriately acknowledged). Will you give permission? Take care, Yrj? On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing with > email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of the > rain > we asked for. > > Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join the > discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too little > interaction, speaking personally. > > So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I believe > that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a > foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories about > how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the > limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, it is > retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that construction > are, in the aggregate, human culture. > > Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences of > vicious circles and spirals of development. > > As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with undergraduates at > a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of > mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through > empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the > development of others. > > Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be > sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in how > fragile and pre- occupying they are. > > mike > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> A further response to John Shotter's exploration on subjective/objective >> cuts as fluid dynamic wayfinding [orienting] >> >> John concludes the paper on agential realism on page 19 with a question, in >> which he is inviting our answer-ability. In re-stating this question on the >> theme of *empathy* I hope this concrete question may generate responses >> which are relevant for how we go on together. >> >> The last paragraph on page 19 in which he leads up to the question is >> re-stated: >> >> All this is quite revolutionary. Much of what we have taken as *basic* to >> our inquiries, e.g., the variables whose effects in social life we seek to >> understand, such as race, ethnicity, culture, age, social class; processes >> such as motivation, perception, cognition; things such as emotions, >> excuses, justifications, and so on, and so on, we come to realize are all, >> in fact, AFTER THE FACT outcomes of our inquiries. Further, when in >> cognitive neuroscience in particular we read such sentences as: "Empathy >> draws on these bodily and limbic shifts in a process called 'interoception' >> in which we perceive inward ... [where] interoception, interpretation, and >> attribution are the proposed steps of empathy carried out by the >> pre-frontal region [of the brain]"(Seigal, 2007, p.168) we must ASK >> OURSELVES whether anything in this account actually relates to phenomena in >> people's everyday activities we call empathic [Frankfurt, 1998]? >> Also, could we ever possibly apply these supposed 'elements' in actually >> helping someone deficient in empathy to come to SHOW empathy more in their >> daily practice, say, in nursing elderly patients - or is it the case that >> the empathic conduct of an everyday practice needs to be LEARNED by quite >> some other means than by building it up, piece by piece, from objective >> elements according to PRE-ESTABLISHED principles? To repeat the point made >> above, all these nominalized 'things' are FORESHADOWED in the very WAY in >> which we, prior to the conduct of our investigations, commit ourselves to a >> particular way of LOOKING AT the matter - "the decisive movement of the >> conjuring trick has been made," says Wittgenstein (1953), "and it was the >> very one that we thought quite innocent." >> >> I, at work in schools, ask similar questions about *developing* empathy and >> believe John Shotter in this article offers an answer which invites further >> commentary. His central insight is that by enacting agential cuts AS >> performances we divide ourselves into ASPECTS which DO the sensing >> AND ASPECTS of ourselves that are subjected to what is sensed. In other >> words our *findings* cannot be taken AS *basic* but are actually developed >> WITHIN our practices >> >> John's conclusion is hermeneutical, inviting further answer-ability. I >> believe his questions and answers are relevant to *developing* empathy >> WITHIN our WAYS of orienting each in the other. >> Larry >> From smago@uga.edu Wed Mar 5 03:50:01 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:50:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Briefly, my beef comes from the interpretation of a response to a facial expression outside the context of how such an expression might authentically be generated in response to something real. Maybe it's just my own difficulty in reading social cues as a high-functioning Asperger's case, and the problems that are exacerbated by the decontextualization of the expressions in a lab setting. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:01 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us Peter. "The lab" ? Ruled out? I read Martin as saying that context and interpretation would be central. Is it this particular study you are apparently disagreeing about? He says its better than universalism (a la Ekman, I assume). No 'round here more sensitive to issues of experimental (laboratory?) studies and cross cultural research so I am a little lost. I have not had a chance to read John Shotter's piece that Larry sent and wants to discuss. I am assuming they are part of the same discussion.Is that supposition correct? I am a little confused. What is at issue here? Help gratefully accepted. mike On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I don't think the only alternative to universals is a different form > of individualized, acontextual inferencing. There's no effort to > understand how the "subjects" from tribal societies came to form their > responses. I don't see the lab as having any potential for a > cultural-historical approach. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin > xmca-l-bounces+John > Packer > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:17 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > If faces do not "speak for themselves," how do we manage to "read" > > other > people? The answer is that we don't passively recognize emotions but > actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide > variety of contextual clues -- a body position, a hand gesture, a > vocalization, the social setting and so on. > > Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's > laboratory research, but personally I find these conclusions more > convincing than the notion that there is a universal code of facial muscle movements. > > Martin > > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Mar 5 06:23:21 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:23:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Peter, i agree with your sense of hesitation in accepting the research of facial expressions - i've been thinking about how police interrogation techniques have depended up on theories of eye behavior. Twenty-three out of 24 peer-reviewed studies published in scientific journals reporting experiments on eye behavior as an indicator of lying have rejected this hypothesis.1 No scientific evidence exists to suggest that eye behavior or gaze aversion can gauge truthfulness reliably. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:50 AM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us Briefly, my beef comes from the interpretation of a response to a facial expression outside the context of how such an expression might authentically be generated in response to something real. Maybe it's just my own difficulty in reading social cues as a high-functioning Asperger's case, and the problems that are exacerbated by the decontextualization of the expressions in a lab setting. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Wed Mar 5 06:42:22 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:42:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Philip, What you've written sounds to me like a critique not of the paper that Peter posted, but of Ekman's approach (The TV show "Lie to me" was based on his work). Lisa Barrett's research apparently reaches the same conclusion as you: we don't read people's emotions on the basis of a single, decontextualized feature such as gaze aversion. Martin On Mar 5, 2014, at 9:23 AM, White, Phillip wrote: > > Peter, i agree with your sense of hesitation in accepting the research of facial expressions - i've been thinking about how police interrogation techniques have depended up on theories of eye behavior. Twenty-three out of 24 peer-reviewed studies published in scientific journals reporting experiments on eye behavior as an indicator of lying have rejected this hypothesis.1 No scientific evidence exists to suggest that eye behavior or gaze aversion can gauge truthfulness reliably. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:50 AM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > Briefly, my beef comes from the interpretation of a response to a facial expression outside the context of how such an expression might authentically be generated in response to something real. Maybe it's just my own difficulty in reading social cues as a high-functioning Asperger's case, and the problems that are exacerbated by the decontextualization of the expressions in a lab setting. > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Mar 5 08:17:15 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:17:15 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Developing Empathy In-Reply-To: <8BF19C8F-8061-41F5-B9BE-A66ADF570D0A@helsinki.fi> References: <8BF19C8F-8061-41F5-B9BE-A66ADF570D0A@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: Hi Yrj? and Mike, I am really excited about this thread and want to point to another interesting "socio-cultural niche" for this kind of work originated in Canada in 1996 called *The Roots of Empathy,* a curriculum that is slowly catching on several other countries. In this program a baby and mother visit a classroom once a month for the first year of the child?s life. This relationship was chosen because as founder Mary Gordon believes ?is best example of emotional attunement there is which is why I chose it as a model of empathy for children to experience?. She goes on to describe what happens during the monthly sessions in a way that provides another fascinating example of Vygotsky?s notion of a leading activity within the ZPD. In Roots of Empathy, children become scientists who explore the inner consciousness of a baby through a curriculum led by a certified instructor, who guides them to describe what the baby is feeling and how the parent is paying attention to the baby's needs. This powerful learning is then extended outwards so children identify and reflect on their own thoughts and feelings and those of others (empathy). For many children, this is the only time where we actually attend to their emotional needs as well as their academic development. (Gordon, 2010, n.p.) There have been several mixed method studies of the effects of this curriculum over the last ten years in an ongoing longitudinal study that show a decrease in aggression, and increase in emotional understanding and care. These results certainly support the idea that perezhivanie can certainly increase through leading activities. One of the most dramatic stories comes from Gordon?s (2009) book. *Darren was the oldest child I ever saw in a Roots of Empathy class. He was in Grade 8 and had been held back twice. He was two years older than everyone else and already starting to grow a beard. I knew his story: his mother had been murdered in front of his eyes when he was four years old, and he had lived in a succession of foster homes ever since. Darren looked menacing because he wanted us to know he was tough: his head was shaved except for a ponytail at the top and he had a tattoo on the back of his head.* *The instructor of the Roots of Empathy program was explaining to the class about differences in temperament that day. She invited the young mother who was visiting the class with Evan, her six-month-old baby, to share her thoughts about her baby?s temperament. Joining in the discussion, the mother told the class how Evan liked to face outwards when he was in the Snugli and didn?t want to cuddle into her, and how she would have preferred to have a more cuddly baby. As the class ended, the mother asked if anyone wanted to try on the Snugli, which was green and trimmed with pink brocade. To everyone?s surprise, Darren offered to try it, and as the other students scrambled to get ready for lunch, he strapped it on. Then he asked if he could put Evan in. The mother was a little apprehensive, but she handed him the baby, and he put Evan in, facing towards his chest. That wise little baby snuggled right in, and Darren took him into a quiet corner and rocked back and forth with the baby in his arms for several minutes. Finally, he came back to where the mother and the Roots of Empathy instructor were waiting and he asked: ?If nobody has ever loved you, do you think you could still be a good father?? *( pp. 5?6) Through this experience (perezhivanie?) Darren began to imagine himself differently and perhaps he experienced a small shift in his sense of personal agency. It would be interesting to follow up on Darren to see how these learning experiences may have shaped his development. Like all areas of development in Vygotsky?s work,. imagination, cognition and emotion all unite with our own experience in ways that break the crusts of the given. Gordon, M. (2009). *The roots of empathy : Changing the world child by child. *New York: The Experiment Publishers. Gordon, M. (2010, Feb. 18). 'Empathic Civilization': Building a New World One Child at A Time. *Huffington Post* Retrieved from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-gordon/empathic-civilization-bui_b_464359.html On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:30 AM, "Engestr?m, Yrj? H M" < yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi> wrote: > Mike, I am completing a paper on vicious and expansive circles and their > interplay. In your message below, the sentence marked in red is so much > right on the money that I would like to use it as a motto in the paper > (with the source appropriately acknowledged). Will you give permission? > > Take care, > > Yrj? > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing with > > email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of > the > > rain > > we asked for. > > > > Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join the > > discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too > little > > interaction, speaking personally. > > > > So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I believe > > that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a > > foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories > about > > how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the > > limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, it > is > > retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that construction > > are, in the aggregate, human culture. > > > > Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences of > > vicious circles and spirals of development. > > > > As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with undergraduates > at > > a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of > > mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through > > empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the > > development of others. > > > > Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be > > sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in > how > > fragile and pre- occupying they are. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > >> A further response to John Shotter's exploration on subjective/objective > >> cuts as fluid dynamic wayfinding [orienting] > >> > >> John concludes the paper on agential realism on page 19 with a > question, in > >> which he is inviting our answer-ability. In re-stating this question on > the > >> theme of *empathy* I hope this concrete question may generate responses > >> which are relevant for how we go on together. > >> > >> The last paragraph on page 19 in which he leads up to the question is > >> re-stated: > >> > >> All this is quite revolutionary. Much of what we have taken as *basic* > to > >> our inquiries, e.g., the variables whose effects in social life we seek > to > >> understand, such as race, ethnicity, culture, age, social class; > processes > >> such as motivation, perception, cognition; things such as emotions, > >> excuses, justifications, and so on, and so on, we come to realize are > all, > >> in fact, AFTER THE FACT outcomes of our inquiries. Further, when in > >> cognitive neuroscience in particular we read such sentences as: "Empathy > >> draws on these bodily and limbic shifts in a process called > 'interoception' > >> in which we perceive inward ... [where] interoception, interpretation, > and > >> attribution are the proposed steps of empathy carried out by the > >> pre-frontal region [of the brain]"(Seigal, 2007, p.168) we must ASK > >> OURSELVES whether anything in this account actually relates to > phenomena in > >> people's everyday activities we call empathic [Frankfurt, 1998]? > >> Also, could we ever possibly apply these supposed 'elements' in actually > >> helping someone deficient in empathy to come to SHOW empathy more in > their > >> daily practice, say, in nursing elderly patients - or is it the case > that > >> the empathic conduct of an everyday practice needs to be LEARNED by > quite > >> some other means than by building it up, piece by piece, from objective > >> elements according to PRE-ESTABLISHED principles? To repeat the point > made > >> above, all these nominalized 'things' are FORESHADOWED in the very WAY > in > >> which we, prior to the conduct of our investigations, commit ourselves > to a > >> particular way of LOOKING AT the matter - "the decisive movement of the > >> conjuring trick has been made," says Wittgenstein (1953), "and it was > the > >> very one that we thought quite innocent." > >> > >> I, at work in schools, ask similar questions about *developing* empathy > and > >> believe John Shotter in this article offers an answer which invites > further > >> commentary. His central insight is that by enacting agential cuts AS > >> performances we divide ourselves into ASPECTS which DO the sensing > >> AND ASPECTS of ourselves that are subjected to what is sensed. In other > >> words our *findings* cannot be taken AS *basic* but are actually > developed > >> WITHIN our practices > >> > >> John's conclusion is hermeneutical, inviting further answer-ability. I > >> believe his questions and answers are relevant to *developing* empathy > >> WITHIN our WAYS of orienting each in the other. > >> Larry > >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Mar 5 09:24:35 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:24:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: ACLS Public Fellows Competition for Recent Ph.D.s - Apply by March 19, 2014 In-Reply-To: <1116711418396.1103773562422.1653.0.91200JL.1002@scheduler.constantcontact.com> References: <1116711418396.1103773562422.1653.0.91200JL.1002@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *UC Humanities Research Institute* Date: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 Subject: ACLS Public Fellows Competition for Recent Ph.D.s - Apply by March 19, 2014 To: mcole@ucsd.edu Having trouble viewing this email? Click here * ACLS Public Fellows Competition * * for Recent Ph.D.s * The American Council of Learned Societies invites applications for the fourth competition of the ACLS Public Fellows program. This year, the program will place 20 recent PhDs from the humanities and humanistic social sciences in two-year staff positions at partnering organizations in government and the nonprofit sector. Fellows will participate in the substantive work of these organizations and receive professional mentoring. Fellows receive a stipend of $65,000 per year, as well as individual health insurance. Positions open for the 2014 competition are located in NYC, DC, Philadelphia, Boston, New Orleans, Madison, Minneapolis, San Francisco, and Santa Monica. A full list of opportunities is available at www.acls.org/programs/publicfellowscomp. Questions may be directed to publicfellows@acls.org . Deadline for applications is March 19, 2014. View flyer here. Forward email This email was sent to mcole@ucsd.eduby communications@hri.uci.edu | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(tm) | Privacy Policy . University of California Humanities Research Institute | 4000 Humanities Gateway | Irvine | CA | 92697-3350 From carolmacdon@gmail.com Wed Mar 5 10:42:15 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:42:15 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Question on Developing Empathy In-Reply-To: References: <8BF19C8F-8061-41F5-B9BE-A66ADF570D0A@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: Hello Robert That was a truly moving episode. Thank you for sharing that. That was definitely an epiphany for Darren. The young mother opened up the possibilities for self-discovery and a chance to make explicit a profound insight about his own situation. I am working in Namibia at the moment, and there was an article in the paper about a similar situation. Yesterday a man (stepfather) killed his wife in front of her son (4). While he was stabbing her (head, eyes, neck)with two knives, the little boy was trying to get him to stop by stabbing the murderer with a kitchen knife in his thigh, shouting "stop killing my mother !". I wonder what life will deliver this little boy in the future. Carol On 5 March 2014 18:17, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi Yrj? and Mike, > > I am really excited about this thread and want to point to another > interesting "socio-cultural niche" for this kind of work originated in > Canada in 1996 called *The Roots of Empathy,* a curriculum that is slowly > catching on several other countries. In this program a baby and mother > visit a classroom once a month for the first year of the child's life. This > relationship was chosen because as founder Mary Gordon believes "is best > example of emotional attunement there is which is why I chose it as a model > of empathy for children to experience'. She goes on to describe what > happens during the monthly sessions in a way that provides another > fascinating example of Vygotsky's notion of a leading activity within the > ZPD. > > > In Roots of Empathy, children become scientists who explore the inner > consciousness of a baby through a curriculum led by a certified instructor, > who guides them to describe what the baby is feeling and how the parent is > paying attention to the baby's needs. This powerful learning is then > extended outwards so children identify and reflect on their own thoughts > and feelings and those of others (empathy). For many children, this is the > only time where we actually attend to their emotional needs as well as > their academic development. (Gordon, 2010, n.p.) > > There have been several mixed method studies of the effects of this > curriculum over the last ten years in an ongoing longitudinal study that > show a decrease in aggression, and increase in emotional understanding and > care. These results certainly support the idea that perezhivanie can > certainly increase through leading activities. One of the most dramatic > stories comes from Gordon's (2009) book. > > > > *Darren was the oldest child I ever saw in a Roots of Empathy class. He was > in Grade 8 and had been held back twice. He was two years older than > everyone else and already starting to grow a beard. I knew his story: his > mother had been murdered in front of his eyes when he was four years old, > and he had lived in a succession of foster homes ever since. Darren looked > menacing because he wanted us to know he was tough: his head was shaved > except for a ponytail at the top and he had a tattoo on the back of his > head.* > > *The instructor of the Roots of Empathy program was explaining to the class > about differences in temperament that day. She invited the young mother who > was visiting the class with Evan, her six-month-old baby, to share her > thoughts about her baby's temperament. Joining in the discussion, the > mother told the class how Evan liked to face outwards when he was in the > Snugli and didn't want to cuddle into her, and how she would have preferred > to have a more cuddly baby. As the class ended, the mother asked if anyone > wanted to try on the Snugli, which was green and trimmed with pink brocade. > To everyone's surprise, Darren offered to try it, and as the other students > scrambled to get ready for lunch, he strapped it on. Then he asked if he > could put Evan in. The mother was a little apprehensive, but she handed him > the baby, and he put Evan in, facing towards his chest. That wise little > baby snuggled right in, and Darren took him into a quiet corner and rocked > back and forth with the baby in his arms for several minutes. Finally, he > came back to where the mother and the Roots of Empathy instructor were > waiting and he asked: "If nobody has ever loved you, do you think you could > still be a good father?" *( pp. 5-6) > > > > Through this experience (perezhivanie?) Darren began to imagine himself > differently and perhaps he experienced a small shift in his sense of > personal agency. It would be interesting to follow up on Darren to see how > these learning experiences may have shaped his development. Like all areas > of development in Vygotsky's work,. imagination, cognition and emotion all > unite with our own experience in ways that break the crusts of the given. > > > Gordon, M. (2009). *The roots of empathy : Changing the world child by > child. *New York: The Experiment Publishers. > > > Gordon, M. (2010, Feb. 18). 'Empathic Civilization': Building a New World > One Child at A Time. *Huffington Post* > > Retrieved from: > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-gordon/empathic-civilization-bui_b_464359.html > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:30 AM, "Engestr?m, Yrj? H M" < > yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi> wrote: > > > Mike, I am completing a paper on vicious and expansive circles and their > > interplay. In your message below, the sentence marked in red is so much > > right on the money that I would like to use it as a motto in the paper > > (with the source appropriately acknowledged). Will you give permission? > > > > Take care, > > > > Yrj? > > > > > > On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing > with > > > email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of > > the > > > rain > > > we asked for. > > > > > > Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join > the > > > discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too > > little > > > interaction, speaking personally. > > > > > > So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I > believe > > > that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a > > > foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories > > about > > > how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the > > > limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, > it > > is > > > retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that > construction > > > are, in the aggregate, human culture. > > > > > > Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences > of > > > vicious circles and spirals of development. > > > > > > As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with > undergraduates > > at > > > a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of > > > mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through > > > empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the > > > development of others. > > > > > > Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be > > > sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in > > how > > > fragile and pre- occupying they are. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > > > >> A further response to John Shotter's exploration on > subjective/objective > > >> cuts as fluid dynamic wayfinding [orienting] > > >> > > >> John concludes the paper on agential realism on page 19 with a > > question, in > > >> which he is inviting our answer-ability. In re-stating this question > on > > the > > >> theme of *empathy* I hope this concrete question may generate > responses > > >> which are relevant for how we go on together. > > >> > > >> The last paragraph on page 19 in which he leads up to the question is > > >> re-stated: > > >> > > >> All this is quite revolutionary. Much of what we have taken as *basic* > > to > > >> our inquiries, e.g., the variables whose effects in social life we > seek > > to > > >> understand, such as race, ethnicity, culture, age, social class; > > processes > > >> such as motivation, perception, cognition; things such as emotions, > > >> excuses, justifications, and so on, and so on, we come to realize are > > all, > > >> in fact, AFTER THE FACT outcomes of our inquiries. Further, when in > > >> cognitive neuroscience in particular we read such sentences as: > "Empathy > > >> draws on these bodily and limbic shifts in a process called > > 'interoception' > > >> in which we perceive inward ... [where] interoception, interpretation, > > and > > >> attribution are the proposed steps of empathy carried out by the > > >> pre-frontal region [of the brain]"(Seigal, 2007, p.168) we must ASK > > >> OURSELVES whether anything in this account actually relates to > > phenomena in > > >> people's everyday activities we call empathic [Frankfurt, 1998]? > > >> Also, could we ever possibly apply these supposed 'elements' in > actually > > >> helping someone deficient in empathy to come to SHOW empathy more in > > their > > >> daily practice, say, in nursing elderly patients - or is it the case > > that > > >> the empathic conduct of an everyday practice needs to be LEARNED by > > quite > > >> some other means than by building it up, piece by piece, from > objective > > >> elements according to PRE-ESTABLISHED principles? To repeat the point > > made > > >> above, all these nominalized 'things' are FORESHADOWED in the very > WAY > > in > > >> which we, prior to the conduct of our investigations, commit ourselves > > to a > > >> particular way of LOOKING AT the matter - "the decisive movement of > the > > >> conjuring trick has been made," says Wittgenstein (1953), "and it was > > the > > >> very one that we thought quite innocent." > > >> > > >> I, at work in schools, ask similar questions about *developing* > empathy > > and > > >> believe John Shotter in this article offers an answer which invites > > further > > >> commentary. His central insight is that by enacting agential cuts AS > > >> performances we divide ourselves into ASPECTS which DO the sensing > > >> AND ASPECTS of ourselves that are subjected to what is sensed. In > other > > >> words our *findings* cannot be taken AS *basic* but are actually > > developed > > >> WITHIN our practices > > >> > > >> John's conclusion is hermeneutical, inviting further answer-ability. I > > >> believe his questions and answers are relevant to *developing* empathy > > >> WITHIN our WAYS of orienting each in the other. > > >> Larry > > >> > > > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:11:55 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:11:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Peter, Your concern here reminds me of the issue that John Lucy raises with the use of Munsell color chips to determine whether one's language affects one's perception of color. In his essay "The Linguistics of 'color'", John argues that using Munsell chips is problematic because it inscribes "color" as THE domain to be perceived when, in fact, many of the languages of the world include other qualia in their color terms. Thus, by limiting the respondents' options to just the Munsell array, one is categorically ruling out possible relativity effects of languages that are different from our own in the way that they slice up the world. Here are John's words (better than mine but also a bit longer): "This array consisted of a selection from a set of Munsell color samples which varied on hue, saturation, and brightness. As a representative of everyday contexts, the array was very restricted, both in its exclusive focus on color and in the kinds of colors presented (e.g., including no variation in luster, luminosity, or reflectance). In a sense, the stimulus array dictated in advance the possible meanings the terms could have since no other meanings were embodied in the samples. Although restricted in this way, the stimulus array was also very complex, and the labeling task performed with it forced informants to make referential microcomparisons and judgments of a sort rarely encountered in daily life. The task assumed that speech is about labeling accuracy rather than situational intelligibility..." (p. 323) It is possible that these lab studies of emotion are onto something, but it seems that one would want to see ethnographic work that explores what terms people in these cultures use and, more importantly, how they actually USE these terms as they go about their daily lives. But that is a much bigger project... -greg On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Briefly, my beef comes from the interpretation of a response to a facial > expression outside the context of how such an expression might > authentically be generated in response to something real. Maybe it's just > my own difficulty in reading social cues as a high-functioning Asperger's > case, and the problems that are exacerbated by the decontextualization of > the expressions in a lab setting. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:01 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > Peter. "The lab" ? Ruled out? > > I read Martin as saying that context and interpretation would be central. > Is it this particular study you are apparently disagreeing about? He says > its better than universalism (a la Ekman, I assume). No 'round here more > sensitive to issues of experimental (laboratory?) studies and cross > cultural research so I am a little lost. > I have not had a chance to read John Shotter's piece that Larry sent and > wants to discuss. I am assuming they are part of the same discussion.Is > that supposition correct? > > I am a little confused. What is at issue here? > > Help gratefully accepted. > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I don't think the only alternative to universals is a different form > > of individualized, acontextual inferencing. There's no effort to > > understand how the "subjects" from tribal societies came to form their > > responses. I don't see the lab as having any potential for a > > cultural-historical approach. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin > > xmca-l-bounces+John > > Packer > > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:17 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > > > On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > If faces do not "speak for themselves," how do we manage to "read" > > > other > > people? The answer is that we don't passively recognize emotions but > > actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide > > variety of contextual clues -- a body position, a hand gesture, a > > vocalization, the social setting and so on. > > > > Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's > > laboratory research, but personally I find these conclusions more > > convincing than the notion that there is a universal code of facial > muscle movements. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Wed Mar 5 16:42:17 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 00:42:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Greg, Yes, this parallel came to my mind too, and I think this is the core of Barrett's critique of Ekman: > In recent years, however, at my laboratory we began to worry that this research method was flawed. In particular, we suspected that by providing subjects with a preselected set of emotion words, these experiments had inadvertently ?primed? the subjects ? in effect, hinting at the answers ? and thus skewed the results. Martin On Mar 5, 2014, at 5:11 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Peter, > > Your concern here reminds me of the issue that John Lucy raises with the > use of Munsell color chips to determine whether one's language affects > one's perception of color. In his essay "The Linguistics of 'color'", John > argues that using Munsell chips is problematic because it inscribes "color" > as THE domain to be perceived when, in fact, many of the languages of the > world include other qualia in their color terms. Thus, by limiting the > respondents' options to just the Munsell array, one is categorically ruling > out possible relativity effects of languages that are different from our > own in the way that they slice up the world. > > Here are John's words (better than mine but also a bit longer): > "This array consisted of a selection from a set of Munsell color samples > which varied on hue, saturation, and brightness. As a representative of > everyday contexts, the array was very restricted, both in its exclusive > focus on color and in the kinds of colors presented (e.g., including no > variation in luster, luminosity, or reflectance). In a sense, the stimulus > array dictated in advance the possible meanings the terms could have since > no other meanings were embodied in the samples. Although restricted in this > way, the stimulus array was also very complex, and the labeling task > performed with it forced informants to make referential microcomparisons > and judgments of a sort rarely encountered in daily life. The task assumed > that speech is about labeling accuracy rather than situational > intelligibility..." (p. 323) > > It is possible that these lab studies of emotion are onto something, but it > seems that one would want to see ethnographic work that explores what terms > people in these cultures use and, more importantly, how they actually USE > these terms as they go about their daily lives. But that is a much bigger > project... > > -greg > > > > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> Briefly, my beef comes from the interpretation of a response to a facial >> expression outside the context of how such an expression might >> authentically be generated in response to something real. Maybe it's just >> my own difficulty in reading social cues as a high-functioning Asperger's >> case, and the problems that are exacerbated by the decontextualization of >> the expressions in a lab setting. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:01 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us >> >> Peter. "The lab" ? Ruled out? >> >> I read Martin as saying that context and interpretation would be central. >> Is it this particular study you are apparently disagreeing about? He says >> its better than universalism (a la Ekman, I assume). No 'round here more >> sensitive to issues of experimental (laboratory?) studies and cross >> cultural research so I am a little lost. >> I have not had a chance to read John Shotter's piece that Larry sent and >> wants to discuss. I am assuming they are part of the same discussion.Is >> that supposition correct? >> >> I am a little confused. What is at issue here? >> >> Help gratefully accepted. >> mike >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >>> I don't think the only alternative to universals is a different form >>> of individualized, acontextual inferencing. There's no effort to >>> understand how the "subjects" from tribal societies came to form their >>> responses. I don't see the lab as having any potential for a >>> cultural-historical approach. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin >>> xmca-l-bounces+John >>> Packer >>> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:17 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us >>> >>> On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >>> >>>> If faces do not "speak for themselves," how do we manage to "read" >>>> other >>> people? The answer is that we don't passively recognize emotions but >>> actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide >>> variety of contextual clues -- a body position, a hand gesture, a >>> vocalization, the social setting and so on. >>> >>> Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's >>> laboratory research, but personally I find these conclusions more >>> convincing than the notion that there is a universal code of facial >> muscle movements. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Mar 5 18:39:17 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:39:17 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , Message-ID: yes, you're correct, Martin - yet at the same time, i'm hesitant just now to accept this research about how accurate we are in the accurate identification of emotions based on facial expressions - it strikes me as akin to identifying, say, native americans as preferring cooperative group activities as opposed to anglos americans preferring individual competition. i would say that i'm needing more definitive research. internal contradictions here, perhaps. phillip ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer [mpacker@uniandes.edu.co] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:42 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us Hi Philip, What you've written sounds to me like a critique not of the paper that Peter posted, but of Ekman's approach (The TV show "Lie to me" was based on his work). Lisa Barrett's research apparently reaches the same conclusion as you: we don't read people's emotions on the basis of a single, decontextualized feature such as gaze aversion. Martin From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 6 03:15:10 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:15:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks Greg--you're making my point much better than I have. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 5:12 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us Peter, Your concern here reminds me of the issue that John Lucy raises with the use of Munsell color chips to determine whether one's language affects one's perception of color. In his essay "The Linguistics of 'color'", John argues that using Munsell chips is problematic because it inscribes "color" as THE domain to be perceived when, in fact, many of the languages of the world include other qualia in their color terms. Thus, by limiting the respondents' options to just the Munsell array, one is categorically ruling out possible relativity effects of languages that are different from our own in the way that they slice up the world. Here are John's words (better than mine but also a bit longer): "This array consisted of a selection from a set of Munsell color samples which varied on hue, saturation, and brightness. As a representative of everyday contexts, the array was very restricted, both in its exclusive focus on color and in the kinds of colors presented (e.g., including no variation in luster, luminosity, or reflectance). In a sense, the stimulus array dictated in advance the possible meanings the terms could have since no other meanings were embodied in the samples. Although restricted in this way, the stimulus array was also very complex, and the labeling task performed with it forced informants to make referential microcomparisons and judgments of a sort rarely encountered in daily life. The task assumed that speech is about labeling accuracy rather than situational intelligibility..." (p. 323) It is possible that these lab studies of emotion are onto something, but it seems that one would want to see ethnographic work that explores what terms people in these cultures use and, more importantly, how they actually USE these terms as they go about their daily lives. But that is a much bigger project... -greg On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Briefly, my beef comes from the interpretation of a response to a > facial expression outside the context of how such an expression might > authentically be generated in response to something real. Maybe it's > just my own difficulty in reading social cues as a high-functioning > Asperger's case, and the problems that are exacerbated by the > decontextualization of the expressions in a lab setting. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:01 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > Peter. "The lab" ? Ruled out? > > I read Martin as saying that context and interpretation would be central. > Is it this particular study you are apparently disagreeing about? He > says its better than universalism (a la Ekman, I assume). No 'round > here more sensitive to issues of experimental (laboratory?) studies > and cross cultural research so I am a little lost. > I have not had a chance to read John Shotter's piece that Larry sent > and wants to discuss. I am assuming they are part of the same > discussion.Is that supposition correct? > > I am a little confused. What is at issue here? > > Help gratefully accepted. > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I don't think the only alternative to universals is a different form > > of individualized, acontextual inferencing. There's no effort to > > understand how the "subjects" from tribal societies came to form > > their responses. I don't see the lab as having any potential for a > > cultural-historical approach. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin > > xmca-l-bounces+John > > Packer > > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:17 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > > > On Mar 2, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > > > If faces do not "speak for themselves," how do we manage to "read" > > > other > > people? The answer is that we don't passively recognize emotions but > > actively perceive them, drawing heavily (if unwittingly) on a wide > > variety of contextual clues -- a body position, a hand gesture, a > > vocalization, the social setting and so on. > > > > Peter, can you say more about why this bothered you? Yes, it's > > laboratory research, but personally I find these conclusions more > > convincing than the notion that there is a universal code of facial > muscle movements. > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Mar 6 04:10:29 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 12:10:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , Message-ID: But Phillip, this research is saying that we are *not* accurate in recognizing emotions from someone's facial expression! The focus of the article is how poor people's performance was once Ekman's task was modified. The last line, for example, says it all: "the face isn?t telling the whole story." Martin On Mar 5, 2014, at 9:39 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > > yes, you're correct, Martin - yet at the same time, i'm hesitant just now to accept this research about how accurate we are in the accurate identification of emotions based on facial expressions - it strikes me as akin to identifying, say, native americans as preferring cooperative group activities as opposed to anglos americans preferring individual competition. i would say that i'm needing more definitive research. > internal contradictions here, perhaps. > > phillip > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer [mpacker@uniandes.edu.co] > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > Hi Philip, > > What you've written sounds to me like a critique not of the paper that Peter posted, but of Ekman's approach (The TV show "Lie to me" was based on his work). Lisa Barrett's research apparently reaches the same conclusion as you: we don't read people's emotions on the basis of a single, decontextualized feature such as gaze aversion. > > Martin From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Mar 6 06:12:48 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:12:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , , Message-ID: Martin, i think i just experienced my first Roseanne Roseannadanna moment. what can i say, but, "Never mind." while i go wipe egg off my face. and thank you. phillip ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer [mpacker@uniandes.edu.co] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 5:10 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us But Phillip, this research is saying that we are *not* accurate in recognizing emotions from someone's facial expression! The focus of the article is how poor people's performance was once Ekman's task was modified. The last line, for example, says it all: "the face isn?t telling the whole story." Martin From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Mar 6 06:54:05 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 14:54:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us In-Reply-To: References: <74bd632fccc548df951359b473c97448@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , <09fe5d89b9264977b99784435c66fd61@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> , , Message-ID: Phillip, I am unable to interpret the egg on your face without also taking into account your posture, and your current circumstances. For instance, perhaps you a merely a messy eater of your breakfast. ;) Martin On Mar 6, 2014, at 9:12 AM, White, Phillip wrote: > Martin, i think i just experienced my first Roseanne Roseannadanna moment. > > what can i say, but, "Never mind." while i go wipe egg off my face. > > and thank you. > > phillip > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer [mpacker@uniandes.edu.co] > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 5:10 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > But Phillip, this research is saying that we are *not* accurate in recognizing emotions from someone's facial expression! The focus of the article is how poor people's performance was once Ekman's task was modified. The last line, for example, says it all: "the face isn?t telling the whole story." > > Martin From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Mar 6 07:38:51 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 10:38:51 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us Message-ID: Off topic...does anyone have any experience paying journals to publish their work. ?I have had several journals reach out to me. ?They claim to be peer-reviewed journals, willing to publish my work for $200. ?How legitimate and respected are these journals. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Martin John Packer Date:03/06/2014 7:10 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us But Phillip, this research is saying that we are *not* accurate in recognizing emotions from someone's facial expression! The focus of the article is how poor people's performance was once Ekman's task was modified. The last line, for example, says it all:? "the face isn?t telling the whole story." Martin On Mar 5, 2014, at 9:39 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > > yes, you're correct, Martin? -? yet at the same time, i'm hesitant just now to accept this research about how accurate we are in the accurate identification of emotions based on facial expressions? -? it strikes me as akin to identifying, say, native americans as preferring cooperative group activities as opposed to anglos americans preferring individual competition.? i would say that i'm needing more definitive research. > internal contradictions here, perhaps. > > phillip > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer [mpacker@uniandes.edu.co] > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 7:42 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: What Faces Can't Tell Us > > Hi Philip, > > What you've written sounds to me like a critique not of the paper that Peter posted, but of Ekman's approach (The TV show "Lie to me" was based on his work). Lisa Barrett's research apparently reaches the same conclusion as you: we don't read people's emotions on the basis of a single, decontextualized feature such as gaze aversion. > > Martin From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 6 11:23:55 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 19:23:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] blurb for Van der Veer's Lev Vygotsky Message-ID: <90096ee5b64e4c8f982fc4234ed35789@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I was asked to provide a blurb to promote Bloomsbury's paperback republication of Lev Vygotsky, which is Van der Veer's contribution to the Continuum Library of Educational Thought. For those interested, here's what I wrote: In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer provides an outstanding career overview for beginners and experts alike. For those seeking an introduction to Vygotsky, Van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major periods of Vygotsky's career. He reviews the development of Vygotsky thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable importance given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' sensibilities. Experts as well will benefit from this refresher course and the inevitable new historical facts and insights available through Van der Veer's encyclopedic and ever-growing knowledge of Vygotsky's life and career. Van der Veer does an outstanding job of situating Vygotsky's youth and his adult work in a historical context that helps Vygotsky emerge as a man of his times and-as Vygotsky himself might appreciate-a scholar whose own intellectual development was a product of his innate brilliance in relation to the mediating context of his era. This development occurred historically during the region's transition between Tsarist Russia's collapse and Soviet society's first decade, during which Vygotsky undertook his brief, mercurial career. Of particular service is Van der Veer's attention to Vygotsky's early, foundational, and neglected work in literary criticism-his master's degree and doctoral theses focused on Shakespeare's Hamlet and Vygotsky's ensuing investigations into the psychology of art-defectology (the study of children whose physical and mental trauma during the overthrow of the Tsar and resulting internecine power struggle placed them on alternative developmental tracks), and educational psychology, an interest he pursued as a teacher educator at the outset of the Soviet era. These formative views, whose maturation Van der Veer documents in relation to the social, political, and intellectual environment of the time, served in turn to provide the basis for Vygotsky's more famous work of the late 1920s and early 1930s. Van der Veer reviews this later research with special attention to Vygotsky's cultural-historical psychology and its implications for such key constructs as the development of higher mental functions, the formulation of the zone of proximal development, and his role in cross-cultural education and social analysis. This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who, like me, have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades. From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 6 11:52:26 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:52:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: blurb for Van der Veer's Lev Vygotsky In-Reply-To: <90096ee5b64e4c8f982fc4234ed35789@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <90096ee5b64e4c8f982fc4234ed35789@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: If we had a copy, it might even get reviewed in MCA! mike On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I was asked to provide a blurb to promote Bloomsbury's paperback > republication of Lev Vygotsky, which is Van der Veer's contribution to the > Continuum Library of Educational Thought. For those interested, here's what > I wrote: > > > > > In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent > Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer provides an outstanding career > overview for beginners and experts alike. For those seeking an introduction > to Vygotsky, Van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major > periods of Vygotsky's career. He reviews the development of Vygotsky > thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable > importance given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' > sensibilities. Experts as well will benefit from this refresher course and > the inevitable new historical facts and insights available through Van der > Veer's encyclopedic and ever-growing knowledge of Vygotsky's life and > career. Van der Veer does an outstanding job of situating Vygotsky's youth > and his adult work in a historical context that helps Vygotsky emerge as a > man of his times and-as Vygotsky himself might appreciate-a scholar whose > own intellectual development was a product of his innate brilliance in > relation to the mediating context of his era. This development occurred > historically during the region's transition between Tsarist Russia's > collapse and Soviet society's first decade, during which Vygotsky undertook > his brief, mercurial career. Of particular service is Van der Veer's > attention to Vygotsky's early, foundational, and neglected work in literary > criticism-his master's degree and doctoral theses focused on Shakespeare's > Hamlet and Vygotsky's ensuing investigations into the psychology of > art-defectology (the study of children whose physical and mental trauma > during the overthrow of the Tsar and resulting internecine power struggle > placed them on alternative developmental tracks), and educational > psychology, an interest he pursued as a teacher educator at the outset of > the Soviet era. These formative views, whose maturation Van der Veer > documents in relation to the social, political, and intellectual > environment of the time, served in turn to provide the basis for Vygotsky's > more famous work of the late 1920s and early 1930s. Van der Veer reviews > this later research with special attention to Vygotsky's > cultural-historical psychology and its implications for such key constructs > as the development of higher mental functions, the formulation of the zone > of proximal development, and his role in cross-cultural education and > social analysis. This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for > undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who, like > me, have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades. > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 6 11:52:26 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 11:52:26 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: blurb for Van der Veer's Lev Vygotsky In-Reply-To: <90096ee5b64e4c8f982fc4234ed35789@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <90096ee5b64e4c8f982fc4234ed35789@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: If we had a copy, it might even get reviewed in MCA! mike On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I was asked to provide a blurb to promote Bloomsbury's paperback > republication of Lev Vygotsky, which is Van der Veer's contribution to the > Continuum Library of Educational Thought. For those interested, here's what > I wrote: > > > > > In this concise intellectual biography of L. S. Vygotsky, eminent > Vygotskian authority Ren? van der Veer provides an outstanding career > overview for beginners and experts alike. For those seeking an introduction > to Vygotsky, Van der Veer has written an accessible account of the major > periods of Vygotsky's career. He reviews the development of Vygotsky > thinking in plain and often witty language, a service of immeasurable > importance given Vygotsky's notorious indifference to his readers' > sensibilities. Experts as well will benefit from this refresher course and > the inevitable new historical facts and insights available through Van der > Veer's encyclopedic and ever-growing knowledge of Vygotsky's life and > career. Van der Veer does an outstanding job of situating Vygotsky's youth > and his adult work in a historical context that helps Vygotsky emerge as a > man of his times and-as Vygotsky himself might appreciate-a scholar whose > own intellectual development was a product of his innate brilliance in > relation to the mediating context of his era. This development occurred > historically during the region's transition between Tsarist Russia's > collapse and Soviet society's first decade, during which Vygotsky undertook > his brief, mercurial career. Of particular service is Van der Veer's > attention to Vygotsky's early, foundational, and neglected work in literary > criticism-his master's degree and doctoral theses focused on Shakespeare's > Hamlet and Vygotsky's ensuing investigations into the psychology of > art-defectology (the study of children whose physical and mental trauma > during the overthrow of the Tsar and resulting internecine power struggle > placed them on alternative developmental tracks), and educational > psychology, an interest he pursued as a teacher educator at the outset of > the Soviet era. These formative views, whose maturation Van der Veer > documents in relation to the social, political, and intellectual > environment of the time, served in turn to provide the basis for Vygotsky's > more famous work of the late 1920s and early 1930s. Van der Veer reviews > this later research with special attention to Vygotsky's > cultural-historical psychology and its implications for such key constructs > as the development of higher mental functions, the formulation of the zone > of proximal development, and his role in cross-cultural education and > social analysis. This volume is straightforward and edifying enough for > undergraduates, and stimulating and informative enough for those who, like > me, have been immersed in Vygotskian scholarship for many decades. > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Mar 6 14:45:03 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:45:03 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] paying journals to publish your work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5318FA6F.8090402@mira.net> Paul, I think that once your name and email address gets captured by spiders crawling around the internet looking for the names of aspiring academic authors, you will find that you get swamped every day with offers to publish your articles and attend "World Congresses" on various hot topics as well. I have no real iea if anyone reads these journals in addition to the great excess of legitimate, peer-reviewed journals that already exist, but I suspect very few. As most universities nowadays require publication as a condition for having an academic job, I suspect the authors don't care. But with millions of aspiring authors and the option of vey cheap short run printing today, its an opportunity for someone to earn a living. But perhaps I am wrong. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Off topic...does anyone have any experience paying journals to publish their work. I have had several journals reach out to me. They claim to be peer-reviewed journals, willing to publish my work for $200. How legitimate and respected are these journals. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > - > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Mar 6 15:44:47 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:44:47 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paying journals to publish your work Message-ID: <8lo1o2o3jpre87ek53jo8x06.1394149487065@email.android.com> Thanks andy...i appreciate the advice... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden
Date:03/06/2014 5:45 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] paying journals to publish your work
Paul, I think that once your name and email address gets captured by spiders crawling around the internet looking for the names of aspiring academic authors, you will find that you get swamped every day with offers to publish your articles and attend "World Congresses" on various hot topics as well. I have no real iea if anyone reads these journals in addition to the great excess of legitimate, peer-reviewed journals that already exist, but I suspect very few. As most universities nowadays require publication as a condition for having an academic job, I suspect the authors don't care. But with millions of aspiring authors and the option of vey cheap short run printing today, its an opportunity for someone to earn a living. But perhaps I am wrong. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Off topic...does anyone have any experience paying journals to publish their work.? I have had several journals reach out to me.? They claim to be peer-reviewed journals, willing to publish my work for $200.? How legitimate and respected are these journals. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > - > From smago@uga.edu Fri Mar 7 03:12:28 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 11:12:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paying journals to publish your work In-Reply-To: <5318FA6F.8090402@mira.net> References: <5318FA6F.8090402@mira.net> Message-ID: <3a3f74c800c844af9f81dc629f8a8494@BN1PR02MB166.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> "As most universities nowadays require publication as a condition for having an academic job, I suspect the authors don't care." Most universities are more discriminating than simply counting all publications as being of equal value. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 5:45 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] paying journals to publish your work Paul, I think that once your name and email address gets captured by spiders crawling around the internet looking for the names of aspiring academic authors, you will find that you get swamped every day with offers to publish your articles and attend "World Congresses" on various hot topics as well. I have no real iea if anyone reads these journals in addition to the great excess of legitimate, peer-reviewed journals that already exist, but I suspect very few. As most universities nowadays require publication as a condition for having an academic job, I suspect the authors don't care. But with millions of aspiring authors and the option of vey cheap short run printing today, its an opportunity for someone to earn a living. But perhaps I am wrong. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Off topic...does anyone have any experience paying journals to publish their work. I have had several journals reach out to me. They claim to be peer-reviewed journals, willing to publish my work for $200. How legitimate and respected are these journals. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > - > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Fri Mar 7 03:27:37 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 08:27:37 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: paying journals to publish your work In-Reply-To: <3a3f74c800c844af9f81dc629f8a8494@BN1PR02MB166.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <5318FA6F.8090402@mira.net> <3a3f74c800c844af9f81dc629f8a8494@BN1PR02MB166.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Indeed. It is not random publication but specially the merit of your ideas and their social and scientific relevance. And I know lots of people that really care, specially here at XMCA. David Enviado desde mi iPhone El 07-03-2014, a las 8:12, Peter Smagorinsky escribi?: > "As most universities nowadays require publication as a condition for having an academic job, I suspect the authors don't care." > Most universities are more discriminating than simply counting all publications as being of equal value. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 5:45 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] paying journals to publish your work > > Paul, I think that once your name and email address gets captured by spiders crawling around the internet looking for the names of aspiring academic authors, you will find that you get swamped every day with offers to publish your articles and attend "World Congresses" on various hot topics as well. I have no real iea if anyone reads these journals in addition to the great excess of legitimate, peer-reviewed journals that already exist, but I suspect very few. As most universities nowadays require publication as a condition for having an academic job, I suspect the authors don't care. But with millions of aspiring authors and the option of vey cheap short run printing today, its an opportunity for someone to earn a living. But perhaps I am wrong. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: >> Off topic...does anyone have any experience paying journals to publish their work. I have had several journals reach out to me. They claim to be peer-reviewed journals, willing to publish my work for $200. How legitimate and respected are these journals. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >> Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >> www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >> >> - > > From smago@uga.edu Fri Mar 7 11:43:01 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 19:43:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: [DPJ] New section: "Scholarship beyond essayistic texts" -- 2 Interviews with Alexander Lobok In-Reply-To: <5c4f4ade72bf244750340d45856f433a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c4f4ade72bf244750340d45856f433a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <520965a5e22241c19199f807afbc502f@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> From: Eugene Matusov [mailto:ematusov@udel.edu] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 2:18 PM Subject: [DPJ] New section: "Scholarship beyond essayistic texts" -- 2 Interviews with Alexander Lobok Dear Dialogic Pedagogy Journal members- We are happy to announce an opening of a new section of the journal with a tentative title "Scholarship Beyond Essayistic Texts". This is NOT peer-reviewed section of the journal will be reserved for some interesting interviews (video and text-based) and other possible forms of non-essayistic scholarship on Dialogic Pedagogy. Similar to the Book Review section, the Editors will select submitted scholarship for this section - we may consider electing special Editors for this section as all these issues related to the new section will be moved to the DPJ Editorial Board. Feel free to submit your non-essayistic scholarship to this new section of our journal: http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/information/authors (please, select the "Scholarship Beyond Essayistic Texts" section during you submission). The first publication to the section "Scholarship Beyond Essayistic Texts" is "Education/obrazovanie as an experience of an encounter" by Russian scholar of Dialogic Pedagogy Alexander Lobok - his theses and 2 video conferences that he conducted in January and February 2014 with international audience at the 4th Bakhtinian conference in New Zealand and afterwards. The conferences and theses are in Russian and English in synchronous translation by Eugene Matusov with support of other Russian-English participants of the conference. You can access this publication here: http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/article/view/84 Also, please feel free to participate in discussion of Alexander Lobok's scholarship - the discussion has been started already - see below the publication! To post by "Add Comment" or "Reply to Comment", you need to login first. Sincerely, Eugene and Ana _____________________________________________________________ Eugene Matusov Ana Marjanovic-Shane Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal Professor of Education Assistant Professor of Education University of Delaware, USA Chestnut Hill College, USA ematusov@udel.edu anamshane@gmail.com DPJ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dialogic-Pedagogy-Journal/581685735176063 ______________________________________________________________ From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Mar 8 06:51:35 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 06:51:35 -0800 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am going to add some further *commentary* to John's particular exploration of aspects of wayfinding. I do this in the spirit of hermeneutics AS an open circle. I notice a famiy *resemblance* between John's writings and the preface to Hegel's "Phenomenology of Spirit" exploring similar themes. Hegel wrote: "The spirit however BECOMES an object, for the spirit IS this movement of becoming something OTHER for itself i.e. and object for its self, AND THEN to sublimate THIS otherhood. And EXPERIENCE is the NAME we give to this MOVEMENT in which the immediate, the unexperienced, i.e. the astract, whether of sensible BEING or of a bare, simple THOUGHT, becomes estranged and then RETURNS to itself FROM estrangement, and is only then PRESENTED in its actuality and truth and BECOMES the property of consciousness." I *read* John as offering further commentary on THIS movement within fluid dynamic open circles AS *intra*-actions in contrast to *inter*-actions. As an aside, Alex Kozulin wrote this reflection on the GENRE of commentary: "The genre of this book [Vygotsky's Psychology A Biography of Ideas] can be defined as that of a commentary. If not the only acceptable form of scholary trestise, the genre of commentary in the last century fell into disrepute and was pushed aside by experimental monographs and SYSTEMATIC surveys of literature. There is a good reason for such a fate. To start with a good commentary always takes as its subject a corpus of writings of a superior quality, and there are not many of those nowadays. Second, the very idea of commentary is incompatible with the popular view of human knowledge AS a temporalized progression from inaccurate facts to accurate ones. Commentary always aims [orients] as a DIALOGUE, with a superior text, the outcome of which is a NEW READING of this text and thus, by implication, a conception of the NEW one." I hope John's article will be *read* in the spirit of commentary AS *wayfinding*. Larry On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > Thanks for the suggestion to invite john to respond. I am including him > using an address different from the one you used. > > John, > Here is Mike's response which included you in the address: > > Hi Larry-- I still have not read John's paper. But at least dealing with > email I could not answer owing to local consequences of getting some of the > rain > we asked for. > > Firstly, here we have a clear case where John should be asked to join the > discussion. He is a long-admired colleague with whom we have far too little > interaction, speaking personally. > > So, here is a part of answering. Perhaps off topic. I hope not. I believe > that the principle of the retrospective construction of meaning is a > foundational part of the problem under discussion and fictive stories about > how cognition and emotion are a dance between the frontal lobe and the > limbic system. In so far as emotion is effected AT ALL by experience, it is > retrospective, and hence, constructive. the "tools" of that construction > are, in the aggregate, human culture. > > Cultural cognition is always, in principle, non-linear -- a sequences of > vicious circles and spirals of development. > > As a routine practice, I used to spend a lot of time with undergraduates at > a local housing project. There the students engaged in a variety of > mutually valued practices -- a hybrid idioculture-- and learned through > empathy. It was all about growing ourselves by participating in the > development of others. > > Finding socio-cultural-historical niches where such settings can be > sustained is quite a different matter. I am particularly interested in how > fragile and pre- occupying they are.o you and myself: > > > Mike, > > Yes, I understand John indicating that an ASPECT of performative practices > [always emotive] is the *mode* of retrospective constructions. I understand > THIS mode as captured by John using the concept *text* Mike you in quotes > mention THIS mode as using *tools* of that retrospective construction. I > believe John is using the concept *tools* in a more limited sense as > existing as *relata* [in relation to *prosthetics*] When > performative practices use *prosthetics* our experience is EXTENDED but AS > prosthetics the use is transparent and our performances are expressed > THROUGH the use of the prosthetics from the subjective side of performative > practices. However, when the use of the prosthetics is disrupted in use > THEN we become aware [conscious] that we are using prosthetics and in this > awareness the prosthetics BECOME opaque [and become conscious AS *tools*. > > If I have read John as he intended then *texts* *prosthetics* and *tools* > are various ASPECTS [not parts] of a dynamic FLUID *intra*-action which is > always AMBIGUOUS and moving within our performative practices. In other > words AS retrospective constructions we are foregrounding the *text aspect* > within the *prosthetic-tool-text* ambiguity. > > In other words the multiple *aspects* of our orienting [wayfinding] to our > surroundings express fluidly flowing *modes* of awareness which cannot be > pre-determined AS pre-existing subjective and objective aspects of > performative practices. The differentiation into prosthetics, tools, and > texts come into existence WITHIN our practices. [NOT prior to which is an > *inter*-action picture] The radical phenomena John is asking us to focus on > is the *felt tendency* PRIOR TO differentiating this fluid *intra*-action > AS INVOLVING *prosthetics*, tools*, or *texts*. THIS fluidity is always in > fact *ambiguous* and cannot ever be finalized. > > Mike, I hope John will add his voice to my *reading* and elaborate on the > *text* aspect which is so prominent in Gadamer's project of philosophical > hermeneutics. John is exploring *wayfinding* within our *intra*-actions > and discusses *prosthetics* *tools* and *texts* AS moments within our WAYS > of orienting. ALWAYS fluid, flowing dynamic phenomena, ALWAYS > ambiguous, ALWAYS partially open, and involving multiple *aspects* > including prosthetics, tools, and texts. > > John, if I have mis-read your intent I ask others to read your > article. This article is participating in [and extending using text] a > tradition which also includes James, Dewey, Gadamer, Merleau-Ponty, Gibson, > Wittgenstein, and Karen Barard. XMCA incarnates this *spirit* and I hope > we generate further participation within this textual tradition. > > Larry > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Mar 14 18:56:31 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 18:56:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: DBIR web site + DBIR at AERA? In-Reply-To: <76113A50-71D2-4614-9225-BA13768EBDE5@colorado.edu> References: <76113A50-71D2-4614-9225-BA13768EBDE5@colorado.edu> Message-ID: Bill has an article on this general topic in the upcoming MCA with a commentary by some folks from Helsinki. If you count your self in some version of design research, you might want to attend to this note. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: William Penuel Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:59 PM Subject: DBIR web site + DBIR at AERA? To: DBIR Workshop Hi all: I wanted to announce the launch of the DBIR web site here: http://learndbir.org There, we've organized a range of resources related to DBIR, including chapter abstracts from our NSSE book and some practical tools for organizing DBIR research and development projects. Please send us your suggestions for what to add, especially from your own work, that you'd like to see represented there. Also, you can follow DBIR on Twitter at @LearnDBIR. I also wanted to send out a request to folks presenting DBIR-related work at AERA. I am compiling a list and will add a list to the news page on the DBIR web site. Bill and Barry From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 14 21:56:07 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 15:56:07 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: DBIR web site + DBIR at AERA? In-Reply-To: References: <76113A50-71D2-4614-9225-BA13768EBDE5@colorado.edu> Message-ID: <5323DD67.8040009@mira.net> Sounds like a call for mesogenetic methodology in Education to me. And if one brackets the word "education" everywhere, it is a call to adopt "project" as a unit of analysis, I wish them all success! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Bill has an article on this general topic in the upcoming MCA with a > commentary by some folks from Helsinki. If you count your self in some > version of design research, you might want to attend to this note. > mike > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: William Penuel > Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:59 PM > Subject: DBIR web site + DBIR at AERA? > To: DBIR Workshop > > > Hi all: > > I wanted to announce the launch of the DBIR web site here: > http://learndbir.org > > There, we've organized a range of resources related to DBIR, including > chapter abstracts from our NSSE book and some practical tools for > organizing DBIR research and development projects. > Please send us your suggestions for what to add, especially from your own > work, that you'd like to see represented there. > > Also, you can follow DBIR on Twitter at @LearnDBIR. > > I also wanted to send out a request to folks presenting DBIR-related work > at AERA. I am compiling a list and will add a list to the news page on the > DBIR web site. > > Bill and Barry > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Mar 16 11:46:09 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:46:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Public Academics and its risks Message-ID: This article seems relevant to prior discussion on the topic of public engagement by academics. The issue is especially tricky when working on soft money, but....... mike http://www.thenation.com/article/178821/columbia-university-fired-two-eminent-public-intellectuals-heres-why-it-matters# From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 16 14:17:13 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 14:17:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding Message-ID: Mike, thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public intellectual. Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in their publications. I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago [Vygotsky's Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by his contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West in the 1960's . In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. What in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social mediation, and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND cultural mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. Alex writes: "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the deep questions of life and existence. How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the audience for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions and Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary discourse. Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography of Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to Vygotsky's later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and tragedy? Larry From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Mar 16 16:41:08 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 23:41:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Public Academics and its risks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB1687A4@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> How extraordinarily painful. The fact that one of the richest universities in the world fired the found of the National Coalition for the Homeless because he couldn't bring in 80% of his salary from grants suggests something has gone very wrong with our collective enterprise. There was a time when people used to say we must support cynicism in going after money because it can support nobler endeavors. Now..... Buy a writer a beer on a hot day and he or she will tell you the three unalterable rules of the universe without much prodding. Never eat at a place called moms. Never play cards with a guy named Doc and Never get into a relationship with somebody who has more problems that you. Perhaps we need to add a fourth. Never make a deal with the devil because in the end the devil always comes out ahead. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Public Academics and its risks This article seems relevant to prior discussion on the topic of public engagement by academics. The issue is especially tricky when working on soft money, but....... mike http://www.thenation.com/article/178821/columbia-university-fired-two-eminent-public-intellectuals-heres-why-it-matters# From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Mar 16 18:24:37 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 18:24:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting set of ideas, thanks a lot Larry. I would prefer to defer, first, to Alex himself. Both of us are, so speak, hybrid people, but from different home grounds. And besides, he is the author. So I'll cc Alex and hope that he will help us out here. mike On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public intellectual. > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in > their publications. > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago [Vygotsky's > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by his > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West > in the 1960's . > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. What > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social mediation, > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND cultural > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > > Alex writes: > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the deep > questions of life and existence. > > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the audience > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions and > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > discourse. > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography of > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to Vygotsky's > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > tragedy? > Larry > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 16 19:58:09 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 20:58:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Public Academics and its risks In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB1687A4@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB1687A4@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: and there is another story that runs somewhat parallel to this that involves academics at the front end of their careers: http://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2014/03/10/essay-about-inability-find-tenure-track-job-academe the author, Patrick Iber, doesn't explicitly mention a failure to bring in big money, but one suspects that this might have been one of the big knocks against him considering that he teaches courses like "Artists, Intellectuals, and Social Change in Latin America" (see his blog at: http://patrickiber.blogspot.com/). Not likely to bring in the big grants with that... It is a nasty world out there. Anyone have any ideas how to make it better? -greg On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > How extraordinarily painful. The fact that one of the richest > universities in the world fired the found of the National Coalition for the > Homeless because he couldn't bring in 80% of his salary from grants > suggests something has gone very wrong with our collective enterprise. > There was a time when people used to say we must support cynicism in going > after money because it can support nobler endeavors. Now..... > > Buy a writer a beer on a hot day and he or she will tell you the three > unalterable rules of the universe without much prodding. > > Never eat at a place called moms. > > Never play cards with a guy named Doc > > and Never get into a relationship with somebody who has more problems that > you. > > Perhaps we need to add a fourth. > > Never make a deal with the devil because in the end the devil always comes > out ahead. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:46 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Public Academics and its risks > > This article seems relevant to prior discussion on the topic of public > engagement by academics. The issue is especially tricky when working on > soft money, but....... > > mike > > > http://www.thenation.com/article/178821/columbia-university-fired-two-eminent-public-intellectuals-heres-why-it-matters# > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 16 23:17:24 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 23:17:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Public Academics and its risks In-Reply-To: References: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB1687A4@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Greg An idea that I share may be utopian [ it is an ideal] which comes from reading an article by John Shotter where he offers commentary on Voloshinov's dialogical approach to academic advancement of knowledge This approach sees academic practices as dialogically responding & informing each other as each perspective adds [aspects] to our ongoing shared conversations. Here is a link to the article http://www.johnshotter.com/papers/voloshinov%20instead%20of%20theory%20final.pdf What I found intriguing is Volohinov proposes a *way* of reading and engaging our differences in theories in a spirit of dialogical question and answer. If this model was more prevalent in our re-search then our differences could be embraced as sharing common questions. Very utopian, but Vygotsky, Gadamer, Bahktin, Voloshinov seemed to show this style of engagement it fits into a particular TYPE or STYLE of scholarship that puts questions into circulation for further elaboration. Is this approach to advancing knowledge money is probably scarce, so I'm not sure how to sustain this way of orienting our practices? Larry On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > and there is another story that runs somewhat parallel to this that > involves academics at the front end of their careers: > > http://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2014/03/10/essay-about-inability-find-tenure-track-job-academe > > the author, Patrick Iber, doesn't explicitly mention a failure to bring in > big money, but one suspects that this might have been one of the big knocks > against him considering that he teaches courses like "Artists, > Intellectuals, and Social Change in Latin America" (see his blog at: > http://patrickiber.blogspot.com/). Not likely to bring in the big grants > with that... > > It is a nasty world out there. Anyone have any ideas how to make it better? > > -greg > > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Glassman, Michael >wrote: > > > How extraordinarily painful. The fact that one of the richest > > universities in the world fired the found of the National Coalition for > the > > Homeless because he couldn't bring in 80% of his salary from grants > > suggests something has gone very wrong with our collective enterprise. > > There was a time when people used to say we must support cynicism in > going > > after money because it can support nobler endeavors. Now..... > > > > Buy a writer a beer on a hot day and he or she will tell you the three > > unalterable rules of the universe without much prodding. > > > > Never eat at a place called moms. > > > > Never play cards with a guy named Doc > > > > and Never get into a relationship with somebody who has more problems > that > > you. > > > > Perhaps we need to add a fourth. > > > > Never make a deal with the devil because in the end the devil always > comes > > out ahead. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:46 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Public Academics and its risks > > > > This article seems relevant to prior discussion on the topic of public > > engagement by academics. The issue is especially tricky when working on > > soft money, but....... > > > > mike > > > > > > > http://www.thenation.com/article/178821/columbia-university-fired-two-eminent-public-intellectuals-heres-why-it-matters# > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 17 03:10:58 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 10:10:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] the risks of being a public intellectual Message-ID: <680a3f210fc84c30a3047ddc96ad9565@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I think it's important to note that the people let go by Columbia were on grant-funded jobs, and so not getting grants should lead to termination. That was the condition of employment. I don't see it affecting those on conventional job tracks that involve security (tenure or its equivalent). People who have tenure and don't get grants in fields that require them might become pariahs, but unless a post-tenure review is in place that may remove them, it's probably not an issue. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 5:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding Mike, thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public intellectual. Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in their publications. I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago [Vygotsky's Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by his contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West in the 1960's . In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. What in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social mediation, and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND cultural mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. Alex writes: "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the deep questions of life and existence. How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the audience for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions and Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary discourse. Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography of Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to Vygotsky's later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and tragedy? Larry From dkirsh@lsu.edu Mon Mar 17 07:09:52 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:09:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Is Sociocultural Theory Psychology? Message-ID: Larry, Thanks for posting this comment of Kozulin: "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [1999, p. 278-279] Is the Vygotskyan tradition psychological? Sub-questions: ...As viewed from the outside? (I've noticed that later editions of ed psych texts often include Vygotsky, whereas earlier editions didn't.) ...As viewed from the inside (is there a consensus, collectively)? Has the answer changed (e.g., used to be psychology but that label no longer fits)? Are there methodological requirements? (We rarely discuss data in this list; most psychology lists discuss little else) Does the scientific status of being a branch of psychology matter to the future of sociocultural theory? Does the psychological designation matter to individual theorists? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 5:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding Mike, thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public intellectual. Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in their publications. I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago [Vygotsky's Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by his contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West in the 1960's . In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. What in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social mediation, and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND cultural mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. Alex writes: "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the deep questions of life and existence. How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the audience for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions and Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary discourse. Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography of Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to Vygotsky's later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and tragedy? Larry From joe.glick@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 09:03:22 2014 From: joe.glick@gmail.com (JAG) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:03:22 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Public Academics and its risks In-Reply-To: References: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB1687A4@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: The Shotter article is labeled a "first draft" dated 2006. Has it been published to anyone's knowledge? If so, where? Although this seems of a piece with his other writings the latest bibliographic reference in this paper to Shotter's other writings is 1997 - and this is, indeed, the latest dated reference to anyone - except for a reference to Shotter (in press) in the notes - note 31 - but no bibliographic clue to its whereabouts. On his website an article which might be the one referenced is indicated as to appear in the "Journal of Collaborative Practices" - no date.* * (tracked it down - Issue 3 of that journal - 2012). On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:17 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg > An idea that I share may be utopian [ it is an ideal] which comes from > reading an article by John Shotter where he offers commentary on > Voloshinov's dialogical approach to academic advancement of knowledge > This approach sees academic practices as dialogically responding & > informing each other as each perspective adds [aspects] to our ongoing > shared conversations. > Here is a link to the article > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/papers/voloshinov%20instead%20of%20theory%20final.pdf > > What I found intriguing is Volohinov proposes a *way* of reading and > engaging our differences in theories in a spirit of dialogical question and > answer. > If this model was more prevalent in our re-search then our differences > could be embraced as sharing common questions. Very utopian, but Vygotsky, > Gadamer, Bahktin, Voloshinov seemed to show this style of engagement it > fits into a particular TYPE or STYLE of scholarship that puts questions > into circulation for further elaboration. > > Is this approach to advancing knowledge money is probably scarce, so I'm > not sure how to sustain this way of orienting our practices? > Larry > > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > and there is another story that runs somewhat parallel to this that > > involves academics at the front end of their careers: > > > > > http://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2014/03/10/essay-about-inability-find-tenure-track-job-academe > > > > the author, Patrick Iber, doesn't explicitly mention a failure to bring > in > > big money, but one suspects that this might have been one of the big > knocks > > against him considering that he teaches courses like "Artists, > > Intellectuals, and Social Change in Latin America" (see his blog at: > > http://patrickiber.blogspot.com/). Not likely to bring in the big grants > > with that... > > > > It is a nasty world out there. Anyone have any ideas how to make it > better? > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Glassman, Michael > >wrote: > > > > > How extraordinarily painful. The fact that one of the richest > > > universities in the world fired the found of the National Coalition for > > the > > > Homeless because he couldn't bring in 80% of his salary from grants > > > suggests something has gone very wrong with our collective enterprise. > > > There was a time when people used to say we must support cynicism in > > going > > > after money because it can support nobler endeavors. Now..... > > > > > > Buy a writer a beer on a hot day and he or she will tell you the three > > > unalterable rules of the universe without much prodding. > > > > > > Never eat at a place called moms. > > > > > > Never play cards with a guy named Doc > > > > > > and Never get into a relationship with somebody who has more problems > > that > > > you. > > > > > > Perhaps we need to add a fourth. > > > > > > Never make a deal with the devil because in the end the devil always > > comes > > > out ahead. > > > > > > Michael > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:46 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Public Academics and its risks > > > > > > This article seems relevant to prior discussion on the topic of public > > > engagement by academics. The issue is especially tricky when working on > > > soft money, but....... > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thenation.com/article/178821/columbia-university-fired-two-eminent-public-intellectuals-heres-why-it-matters# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Mon Mar 17 09:17:21 2014 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:17:21 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Is Sociocultural Theory Psychology? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Message from Francine: Metatheories in psychology typically are just as humanistic and /or philosophical as they are psychological science. Among these are Piaget's theory based on French Structuralism, Psychoanalytic theory, the American Humanistic psychology of Rogers and Maslow, and Vygotsky's theory. Never-the-less much empirical research has been generated from these theories and their disagreements with opposing theories. In contrast, reductionist theories like Behaviorism generate a lot of research but ignore the complicated interplay of obvious factors like culture or neural functioning. Even contemporary neuroscience, which generates tons of data from ever increasing technological innovations, is essentially reductionist. When asked to answer the tough questions about cultural and environmental influences the typical replay from neuroscience will be a conflicting review of research, and a summary of the functions of various neurological systems. Neuroscience and its customary psychopharmacological interventions has unseated psychotherapies as explanations for human behavior, but this has a lot to do with the economic profits derived from prescription drugs. Crime rates, rates of psychological disorders, and educational achievement rates have not improved. Perhaps, there will be a 21st century Revivalism in psychology to once again examine the synergistic interplay of cultural, social, cognitive, emotional, and neurological factors affecting human behavior. After all, even Wilhelm Wundt recognized the two fold nature of psychological investigations, Cultural Psychology and Experimental Psychology. > From: dkirsh@lsu.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:09:52 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Is Sociocultural Theory Psychology? > > Larry, > Thanks for posting this comment of Kozulin: > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [1999, p. 278-279] > > Is the Vygotskyan tradition psychological? > > Sub-questions: > ...As viewed from the outside? (I've noticed that later editions of ed psych texts often include Vygotsky, whereas earlier editions didn't.) > ...As viewed from the inside (is there a consensus, collectively)? > Has the answer changed (e.g., used to be psychology but that label no longer fits)? > Are there methodological requirements? (We rarely discuss data in this list; most psychology lists discuss little else) > Does the scientific status of being a branch of psychology matter to the future of sociocultural theory? > Does the psychological designation matter to individual theorists? > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 5:17 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding > > Mike, > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public intellectual. > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in their publications. > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago [Vygotsky's > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by his contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West in the 1960's . > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. What in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social mediation, and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND cultural mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > > Alex writes: > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the deep questions of life and existence. > > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the audience for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions and Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary discourse. > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography of Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to Vygotsky's later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and tragedy? > Larry > > From ben.devane@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 12:08:04 2014 From: ben.devane@gmail.com (Ben DeVane) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:08:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [gls] GLS Doctoral Consortium applications due in a week! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For doctoral students interested in the field of games and learning. Please contact me at benjamin-devane@uiowa.edu with any questions. On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Caro Williams wrote: > The Games+Learning+Society Doctoral Consortium offers select graduate > students the opportunity for valuable career advice and critical feedback > on their scholarship. Graduate students working on their dissertations will > receive feedback on their research trajectories, publishing advice from > successful authors and journal editors, and timely information about the > job search from early career scholars who have recently been on the market. > They will also have the opportunity to build new peer relationships and > potential collaborations with other graduate students who are part of the > consortium. > > THE APPLICATION PROCESS > To apply, please send a 2-page CV and a 1000-word prospectus (excluding > references) describing the (1) goals of your research project, (2) research > question(s), (3) background & theoretical frame, (4) methodology, (5) > current status of your project, and a (6) description of the topics that > you would like to address at the doctoral consortium. > > This prospectus should be saved in PDF format and emailed to > chair@glsconference.org. > > APPLICATIONS ARE DUE ON MARCH 22, 2014. > Notification emails will be sent April 15, 2014. > The Doctoral Consortium will take place immediately prior to the GLS > Conference, on June 10, 2014, in Madison, Wisconsin. > http://glsconference.org/2014/doctoral-consortium > > The GLS Doctoral Consortium is free to accepted participants, and we are > delighted to announce that accepted participants will also have their GLS > Conference registration fees comped! > > Good luck to you all! > > Questions about the DC or the application process? Contact the DC > Co-Chairs, Alecia Magnifico, at alecia.magnifico@unh.edu and Ben Devane, > at benjamin-devane@uiowa.edu. > > Caro > > Caroline C. Williams > Co-Chair - Games+Learning+Society Conference > University of Wisconsin - Madison > Conference: www.glsconference.org > Center: www.gameslearningsociety.org > Twitter: @GLScenter > ---
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To unsubscribe click here: https://lists.wisc.edu/u?id=40153250.f1d612f08dea3c98261a53d363b2a108&n=T&l=gls&o=34636876orsend a blank email to leave-34636876-40153250.f1d612f08dea3c98261a53d363b2a108@lists.wisc.edu -- *********************** Ben DeVane, Ph.D Assistant Professor Psychological & Quantitative Foundations University of Iowa *********************** From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 14:34:04 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 06:34:04 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry: I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on Hamlet. I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish it from the way things are. But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst men. You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on board. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > Mike, > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public intellectual. > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in > their publications. > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago [Vygotsky's > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by his > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West > in the 1960's . > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. What > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social mediation, > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND cultural > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > > Alex writes: > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a new > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's contribution > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the deep > questions of life and existence. > > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the audience > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions and > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > discourse. > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography of > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to Vygotsky's > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > tragedy? > Larry From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 20:11:51 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:11:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Public Academics and its risks In-Reply-To: References: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB1687A4@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, I first read the article in the january 2014 journal which I believe is called [Theory of Psychology] I am on a public commuter so cannot confirm the exact title. I wrote John Shotter to see if it was possible to share this article on line. He said that it was not possible but he did send this draft which he said could be distributed. The article is available for access for people with academic accounts I do believe this article is *of a piece* with his other writings but in my reading I also saw an extension in the theme of *ways of orienting* AS multiple [the prosthetic-tool-text aspects OF agential realism] and very rapidly shifting ways of orienting BETWEEN these multiple ways. We perceive THROUGH tools when intentionally acting and the tools are opaque. In John's conception, prosthetics become visible when they are not functioning as expected and thus become *tools*. The third aspect of ways of orienting is expressed in the concept *text* which I read as implicating cultural historical ways of orienting. What is *of a piece* is the way Shotter questions notions of *representations* as prior to our ways of orienting. He is drawing attention to the aspect of *felt tendencies* within our ways of orienting AS intra-actions. This is in contrast to *inter*-actions which presuppose things or entities that EXIST prior to their coming into relation. I read this current article as *extending* the dialogue with social construction and going BEYOND these earlier *readings* which foreground language John is even questioning the assumptions of *foreground* and *background* as pre-existing concepts. Foreground and backgeround *emerge* within *agential realism*. The terms *extension* and *beyond* indicate a coherent theme but also adding further commentary [and depth??] to John's *project* That is what I as a particular reader understand when reading this article Larry On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:03 AM, JAG wrote: > The Shotter article is labeled a "first draft" dated 2006. Has it been > published to anyone's knowledge? If so, where? > > Although this seems of a piece with his other writings the latest > bibliographic reference in this paper to Shotter's other writings is 1997 - > and this is, indeed, the latest dated reference to anyone - except for a > reference to Shotter (in press) in the notes - note 31 - but no > bibliographic clue to its whereabouts. > > On his website an article which might be the one referenced is indicated as > to appear in the "Journal of Collaborative Practices" - no date.* > > * (tracked it down - Issue 3 of that journal - 2012). > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:17 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Greg > > An idea that I share may be utopian [ it is an ideal] which comes from > > reading an article by John Shotter where he offers commentary on > > Voloshinov's dialogical approach to academic advancement of knowledge > > This approach sees academic practices as dialogically responding & > > informing each other as each perspective adds [aspects] to our ongoing > > shared conversations. > > Here is a link to the article > > > > > > > http://www.johnshotter.com/papers/voloshinov%20instead%20of%20theory%20final.pdf > > > > What I found intriguing is Volohinov proposes a *way* of reading and > > engaging our differences in theories in a spirit of dialogical question > and > > answer. > > If this model was more prevalent in our re-search then our differences > > could be embraced as sharing common questions. Very utopian, but > Vygotsky, > > Gadamer, Bahktin, Voloshinov seemed to show this style of engagement it > > fits into a particular TYPE or STYLE of scholarship that puts questions > > into circulation for further elaboration. > > > > Is this approach to advancing knowledge money is probably scarce, so I'm > > not sure how to sustain this way of orienting our practices? > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 7:58 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > and there is another story that runs somewhat parallel to this that > > > involves academics at the front end of their careers: > > > > > > > > > http://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2014/03/10/essay-about-inability-find-tenure-track-job-academe > > > > > > the author, Patrick Iber, doesn't explicitly mention a failure to bring > > in > > > big money, but one suspects that this might have been one of the big > > knocks > > > against him considering that he teaches courses like "Artists, > > > Intellectuals, and Social Change in Latin America" (see his blog at: > > > http://patrickiber.blogspot.com/). Not likely to bring in the big > grants > > > with that... > > > > > > It is a nasty world out there. Anyone have any ideas how to make it > > better? > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Glassman, Michael < > glassman.13@osu.edu > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > How extraordinarily painful. The fact that one of the richest > > > > universities in the world fired the found of the National Coalition > for > > > the > > > > Homeless because he couldn't bring in 80% of his salary from grants > > > > suggests something has gone very wrong with our collective > enterprise. > > > > There was a time when people used to say we must support cynicism in > > > going > > > > after money because it can support nobler endeavors. Now..... > > > > > > > > Buy a writer a beer on a hot day and he or she will tell you the > three > > > > unalterable rules of the universe without much prodding. > > > > > > > > Never eat at a place called moms. > > > > > > > > Never play cards with a guy named Doc > > > > > > > > and Never get into a relationship with somebody who has more problems > > > that > > > > you. > > > > > > > > Perhaps we need to add a fourth. > > > > > > > > Never make a deal with the devil because in the end the devil always > > > comes > > > > out ahead. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > ] > > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:46 PM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Public Academics and its risks > > > > > > > > This article seems relevant to prior discussion on the topic of > public > > > > engagement by academics. The issue is especially tricky when working > on > > > > soft money, but....... > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thenation.com/article/178821/columbia-university-fired-two-eminent-public-intellectuals-heres-why-it-matters# > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 20:14:39 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:14:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic Science. I missed it! mike On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Larry: > > I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of > our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of > the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan > theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on > Hamlet. > > I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a > romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam > said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in > the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST > the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read > Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the > nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an > inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's > depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others > in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives > himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is > he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish > it from the way things are. > > But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or > not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence > on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the > revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). > Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version > was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before > opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in > the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). > Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people > whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst > men. > > You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted > for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which > Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the > way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual > psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the > third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think > that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I > am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on > board. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > > Mike, > > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public > intellectual. > > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in > > their publications. > > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago > [Vygotsky's > > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > > > > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in > > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by > his > > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West > > in the 1960's . > > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. > What > > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social > mediation, > > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND > cultural > > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > > > > Alex writes: > > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a > new > > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget > comes > > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative > > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's > contribution > > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND > > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the > > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > > > > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years > > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In > > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored > > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of > > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a > > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the > deep > > questions of life and existence. > > > > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the > audience > > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the > > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions > and > > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of > > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > > discourse. > > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic > > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography > of > > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to > Vygotsky's > > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > > tragedy? > > Larry > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 20:58:08 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:58:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, I often feel *in over my head* in these conversations without enough background to comment. However, I will comment on what I found intriquing in Kozulin's commentary on Vygotsky's exploration of art and Hamlet and the *mythological* trans-disciplinary theme of tragedy Kozulin's *reading* of Vygotsky's early work on esthetics and tragedy shows Vygotsky engaged with similar themes which were emerging in Marburg with Heidegger and Gadamer at this same time. [the 1920's &30's]. Chapter one and two of Kozulin's book bring to awareness that Vygotsky was deeply immersed in exploring this *mythological realm* questioning the supra-psychological aspect BEYOND the merely subjective. Kozulin shows that the book Doctor Zhivago was also a genre of writing exploring the way we are *called* and that there are *forces* calling BEYOND the personal which however are historical. Kozulin for example says neither Doctor Zhivago or Vygotsky's writings [which Kozulin reads as sharing a family resemblance] could have been written in any other epoch except within this historical epoch. THIS is because of the shared questions which they were attempting to answer THIS *3rd plane* which Kozulin is *illuminating* [his book is developing this theme] is pointing to this trans-disciplinary supra-psychological [but effected within history] reality. David, I hope Alex Kozulin will respond and share his current reflections on your question. I was amazed how deeply Vygotsky as a young man could engage with these themes and I came away with a new appreciation for the vitality and depth of engagement Vygotsky *incarnated* in his writings at this *liminal* time in his own development within this historical epoch. As I say, I am in over my head, but through these *canonical* texts the notion of the *romantic* AND the *supra-psychological* in DIALOGUE seems to me the way to play with these themes. Everybody except Hamlet AS *ghosts* brings in the awareness of a realm BEYOND the personal which is expressed THROUGH the personal. David, I don't have answers but I find these questions have a vitality which I sense Kozulin was expressing in his book. Larry On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Larry: > > I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of > our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of > the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan > theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on > Hamlet. > > I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a > romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam > said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in > the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST > the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read > Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the > nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an > inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's > depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others > in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives > himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is > he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish > it from the way things are. > > But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or > not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence > on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the > revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). > Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version > was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before > opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in > the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). > Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people > whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst > men. > > You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted > for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which > Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the > way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual > psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the > third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think > that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I > am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on > board. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > > Mike, > > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public > intellectual. > > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in > > their publications. > > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago > [Vygotsky's > > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > > > > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in > > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by > his > > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West > > in the 1960's . > > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. > What > > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social > mediation, > > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND > cultural > > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > > > > Alex writes: > > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a > new > > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget > comes > > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative > > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's > contribution > > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND > > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the > > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > > > > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years > > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In > > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored > > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of > > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a > > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the > deep > > questions of life and existence. > > > > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the > audience > > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the > > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions > and > > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of > > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > > discourse. > > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic > > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography > of > > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to > Vygotsky's > > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > > tragedy? > > Larry > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 22:18:24 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:18:24 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and they aspire to a science that retains this richness." Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: > David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic Science. > I missed it! > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Larry: >> >> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >> Hamlet. >> >> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >> it from the way things are. >> >> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >> men. >> >> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >> board. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: >> > Mike, >> > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >> intellectual. >> > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in >> > their publications. >> > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >> [Vygotsky's >> > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >> > >> > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in >> > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >> > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by >> his >> > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >> > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West >> > in the 1960's . >> > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >> > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >> What >> > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >> mediation, >> > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >> > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >> > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >> cultural >> > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >> > >> > Alex writes: >> > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a >> new >> > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >> comes >> > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative >> > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >> contribution >> > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND >> > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the >> > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >> > >> > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years >> > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In >> > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored >> > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of >> > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a >> > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >> deep >> > questions of life and existence. >> > >> > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >> > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >> audience >> > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the >> > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions >> and >> > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of >> > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >> > discourse. >> > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic >> > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography >> of >> > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >> Vygotsky's >> > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >> > tragedy? >> > Larry >> From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 17 22:31:01 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:31:01 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, but the comment that Vygotsky could only have been written within a particular historical epoch always seems trite, banal, and therefore basically wrong to me. It is, of course, objectively true that every historical moment is different from every other historical moment, if only by virtue of the fact that the other historical moments precede it and each historical moment therefore includes their trace. It is also true that if you try to write like Vygotsky in our own day people will laugh (Martin once accused me of trying, and in my defense I had to plead, naively, that I thought that's what a translator did). Professor Glick says, in his preface to the History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions in Volume Four of the Collected Works, that Vygotsky really has TWO salient characteristics which rather contradict each other. One is that he is intensely engaged in virtually all of the major psychological and even philosophical disputes of his time--very frustrating for the translator because it mires you in footnotes, but of really an essential part of Vygotsky the public intellectual. The other, which I think is really more important, is that he always manages to seem like his writing about YOUR time as well as his own. Marx remarks that the thing we need to explain about the ancient Greeks is not what they meant to themselves; they didn't even know that they were ANCIENT Greeks. What we really need to explain is why they still mean anything to us today at all. But that's my wife's job--she's teaching World Lit these days, and they have to spend weeks and weeks getting Odysseus home to Ithaca. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 March 2014 12:58, Larry Purss wrote: > David, > I often feel *in over my head* in these conversations > without enough background to comment. > However, I will comment on what I found intriquing in Kozulin's commentary > on Vygotsky's exploration of art and Hamlet and the *mythological* > trans-disciplinary theme of tragedy > Kozulin's *reading* of Vygotsky's early work on esthetics and tragedy shows > Vygotsky engaged with similar themes which were emerging in Marburg with > Heidegger and Gadamer at this same time. [the 1920's &30's]. > > Chapter one and two of Kozulin's book bring to awareness that Vygotsky was > deeply immersed in exploring this *mythological realm* questioning the > supra-psychological aspect BEYOND the merely subjective. > Kozulin shows that the book Doctor Zhivago was also a genre of writing > exploring the way we are *called* and that there are *forces* calling > BEYOND the personal which however are historical. Kozulin for example says > neither Doctor Zhivago or Vygotsky's writings [which Kozulin reads as > sharing a family resemblance] could have been written in any other > epoch except within this historical epoch. THIS is because of the shared > questions which they were attempting to answer > THIS *3rd plane* which Kozulin is *illuminating* [his book is developing > this theme] is pointing to this trans-disciplinary supra-psychological [but > effected within history] reality. > > David, I hope Alex Kozulin will respond and share his current reflections > on your question. I was amazed how deeply Vygotsky as a young man could > engage with these themes and I came away with a new appreciation for the > vitality and depth of engagement Vygotsky *incarnated* in his writings at > this *liminal* time in his own development within this historical epoch. > > As I say, I am in over my head, but through these *canonical* texts the > notion of the *romantic* AND the *supra-psychological* in DIALOGUE seems to > me the way to play with these themes. > > Everybody except Hamlet AS *ghosts* brings in the awareness of a > realm BEYOND the personal which is expressed THROUGH the personal. > > David, I don't have answers but I find these questions have a vitality > which I sense Kozulin was expressing in his book. > > Larry > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Larry: >> >> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >> Hamlet. >> >> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >> it from the way things are. >> >> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >> men. >> >> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >> board. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: >> > Mike, >> > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >> intellectual. >> > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* in >> > their publications. >> > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >> [Vygotsky's >> > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >> > >> > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends in >> > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >> > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by >> his >> > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >> > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the West >> > in the 1960's . >> > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >> > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >> What >> > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >> mediation, >> > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >> > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >> > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >> cultural >> > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >> > >> > Alex writes: >> > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in a >> new >> > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >> comes >> > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of communicative >> > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >> contribution >> > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least BEYOND >> > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on the >> > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >> > >> > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 years >> > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. In >> > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings explored >> > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the theme of >> > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written by a >> > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >> deep >> > questions of life and existence. >> > >> > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >> > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >> audience >> > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of the >> > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions >> and >> > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the concept of >> > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >> > discourse. >> > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these humanistic >> > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his biography >> of >> > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >> Vygotsky's >> > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >> > tragedy? >> > Larry >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Mar 18 05:59:54 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 05:59:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought you had an actual example, David. So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did not claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. Hence my question. mike On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and > Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is > not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on > p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, > with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. > > "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their > constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and > elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws > are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field > under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living > reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The > roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, > 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." > > "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the > opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the > leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want > neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to > represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that > lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost > importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and > they aspire to a science that retains this richness." > > Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? > > On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky > was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", > meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and > romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of > reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: > > David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic > Science. > > I missed it! > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > >> Larry: > >> > >> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of > >> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of > >> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan > >> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on > >> Hamlet. > >> > >> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a > >> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam > >> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in > >> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST > >> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read > >> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the > >> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an > >> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's > >> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others > >> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives > >> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is > >> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish > >> it from the way things are. > >> > >> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > >> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or > >> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence > >> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the > >> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). > >> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version > >> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before > >> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in > >> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). > >> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people > >> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst > >> men. > >> > >> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted > >> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which > >> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the > >> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual > >> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the > >> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think > >> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I > >> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on > >> board. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > >> > Mike, > >> > thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public > >> intellectual. > >> > Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* > in > >> > their publications. > >> > I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago > >> [Vygotsky's > >> > Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > >> > > >> > Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends > in > >> > Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > >> > The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by > >> his > >> > contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > >> > The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the > West > >> > in the 1960's . > >> > In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > >> > scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. > >> What > >> > in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social > >> mediation, > >> > and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > >> > approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > >> > question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND > >> cultural > >> > mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > >> > > >> > Alex writes: > >> > "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in > a > >> new > >> > light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget > >> comes > >> > the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of > communicative > >> > action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's > >> contribution > >> > TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least > BEYOND > >> > traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on > the > >> > humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > >> > > >> > I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 > years > >> > later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. > In > >> > particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings > explored > >> > in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the > theme of > >> > Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written > by a > >> > young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the > >> deep > >> > questions of life and existence. > >> > > >> > How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > >> > The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the > >> audience > >> > for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of > the > >> > role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions > >> and > >> > Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the > concept of > >> > Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > >> > discourse. > >> > Will the university as an institution remain a place for these > humanistic > >> > studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his > biography > >> of > >> > Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to > >> Vygotsky's > >> > later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > >> > tragedy? > >> > Larry > >> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Tue Mar 18 07:30:39 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 14:30:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? Martin On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > I thought you had an actual example, David. > > So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, > with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did not > claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it > made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. > > Hence my question. > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and >> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is >> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on >> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, >> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. >> >> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their >> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and >> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws >> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field >> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living >> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The >> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, >> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." >> >> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the >> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the >> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want >> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to >> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that >> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost >> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and >> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." >> >> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? >> >> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky >> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", >> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and >> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of >> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: >>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic >> Science. >>> I missed it! >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry: >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >>>> Hamlet. >>>> >>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >>>> it from the way things are. >>>> >>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >>>> men. >>>> >>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >>>> board. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>> Mike, >>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >>>> intellectual. >>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* >> in >>>>> their publications. >>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >>>> [Vygotsky's >>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >>>>> >>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends >> in >>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by >>>> his >>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the >> West >>>>> in the 1960's . >>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >>>> What >>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >>>> mediation, >>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >>>> cultural >>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >>>>> >>>>> Alex writes: >>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in >> a >>>> new >>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >>>> comes >>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of >> communicative >>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >>>> contribution >>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least >> BEYOND >>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on >> the >>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >>>>> >>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 >> years >>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. >> In >>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings >> explored >>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the >> theme of >>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written >> by a >>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >>>> deep >>>>> questions of life and existence. >>>>> >>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >>>> audience >>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of >> the >>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions >>>> and >>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the >> concept of >>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >>>>> discourse. >>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these >> humanistic >>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his >> biography >>>> of >>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >>>> Vygotsky's >>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >>>>> tragedy? >>>>> Larry >>>> >> From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 18 10:01:22 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:01:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I want to share a quote from Louis O Mink who is reflecting on this historical epoch of the 1920's in his commentary on the philosophy of R.G. Collingwood. "like the eve in vision, ones own Weltanschauung is an instrument, not an object of thought. Only in historical perspective, AFTER it has done its work, can it be seen how it has done its work. We do not have a name to describe or an articulated theory to explain the MOVEMENT of thought which transformed, after the First World War, what we call, in its earlier forms, *Romanticism*. But I think it is likely that the future historian of our time will see Collingwood along with pragmatists and existentialists as TRIBUTARIES OF A COMMON STREAM. " Is this notion of an *implicit* stream which becomes clarified afterwards and becomes more *explicit* also implicating Vygotsky in this emerging way of life?? This epoch where *Romanticism* is trans-forming [and is supra-personal in David K's notion] seems relevant to the psychology of art and commentary on Hamlet which Kozulin is gesturing towards in his book Larry On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Mike, > > Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra > the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading > that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? > > Martin > > On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > I thought you had an actual example, David. > > > > So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, > > with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did > not > > claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it > > made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. > > > > Hence my question. > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >wrote: > > > >> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and > >> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is > >> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on > >> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, > >> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. > >> > >> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their > >> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and > >> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws > >> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field > >> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living > >> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The > >> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, > >> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." > >> > >> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the > >> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the > >> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want > >> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to > >> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that > >> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost > >> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and > >> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." > >> > >> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? > >> > >> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky > >> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", > >> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and > >> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of > >> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: > >>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic > >> Science. > >>> I missed it! > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Larry: > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of > >>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of > >>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan > >>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on > >>>> Hamlet. > >>>> > >>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a > >>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam > >>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in > >>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST > >>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read > >>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the > >>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an > >>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's > >>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others > >>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives > >>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is > >>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish > >>>> it from the way things are. > >>>> > >>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > >>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or > >>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence > >>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the > >>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). > >>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version > >>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before > >>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in > >>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). > >>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people > >>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst > >>>> men. > >>>> > >>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted > >>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which > >>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the > >>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual > >>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the > >>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think > >>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I > >>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on > >>>> board. > >>>> > >>>> David Kellogg > >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public > >>>> intellectual. > >>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* > >> in > >>>>> their publications. > >>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago > >>>> [Vygotsky's > >>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > >>>>> > >>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends > >> in > >>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > >>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory > by > >>>> his > >>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > >>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the > >> West > >>>>> in the 1960's . > >>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > >>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. > >>>> What > >>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social > >>>> mediation, > >>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > >>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > >>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND > >>>> cultural > >>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > >>>>> > >>>>> Alex writes: > >>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in > >> a > >>>> new > >>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget > >>>> comes > >>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of > >> communicative > >>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's > >>>> contribution > >>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least > >> BEYOND > >>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on > >> the > >>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 > >> years > >>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. > >> In > >>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings > >> explored > >>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the > >> theme of > >>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written > >> by a > >>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the > >>>> deep > >>>>> questions of life and existence. > >>>>> > >>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > >>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the > >>>> audience > >>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of > >> the > >>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic > questions > >>>> and > >>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the > >> concept of > >>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > >>>>> discourse. > >>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these > >> humanistic > >>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his > >> biography > >>>> of > >>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to > >>>> Vygotsky's > >>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > >>>>> tragedy? > >>>>> Larry > >>>> > >> > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Mar 18 17:21:14 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 17:21:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and too literally. I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak of LSV in those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together with explanatory/descriptive. Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line that David points to: "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic tendencies." My failure was that I have long thought of the split being confronted as between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred to me to equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to think of Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of overcoming the nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps make sense of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have used the term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. mike On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Mike, > > Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra > the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading > that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? > > Martin > > On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > I thought you had an actual example, David. > > > > So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, > > with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did > not > > claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it > > made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. > > > > Hence my question. > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >wrote: > > > >> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and > >> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is > >> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on > >> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, > >> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. > >> > >> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their > >> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and > >> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws > >> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field > >> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living > >> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The > >> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, > >> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." > >> > >> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the > >> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the > >> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want > >> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to > >> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that > >> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost > >> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and > >> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." > >> > >> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? > >> > >> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky > >> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", > >> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and > >> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of > >> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: > >>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic > >> Science. > >>> I missed it! > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Larry: > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of > >>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of > >>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan > >>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on > >>>> Hamlet. > >>>> > >>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a > >>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam > >>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in > >>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST > >>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read > >>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the > >>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an > >>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's > >>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others > >>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives > >>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is > >>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish > >>>> it from the way things are. > >>>> > >>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > >>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or > >>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence > >>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the > >>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). > >>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version > >>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before > >>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in > >>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). > >>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people > >>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst > >>>> men. > >>>> > >>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted > >>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which > >>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the > >>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual > >>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the > >>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think > >>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I > >>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on > >>>> board. > >>>> > >>>> David Kellogg > >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public > >>>> intellectual. > >>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* > >> in > >>>>> their publications. > >>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago > >>>> [Vygotsky's > >>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > >>>>> > >>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends > >> in > >>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > >>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory > by > >>>> his > >>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > >>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the > >> West > >>>>> in the 1960's . > >>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > >>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. > >>>> What > >>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social > >>>> mediation, > >>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > >>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new > >>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND > >>>> cultural > >>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > >>>>> > >>>>> Alex writes: > >>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in > >> a > >>>> new > >>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget > >>>> comes > >>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of > >> communicative > >>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's > >>>> contribution > >>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least > >> BEYOND > >>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on > >> the > >>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > >>>>> > >>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 > >> years > >>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. > >> In > >>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings > >> explored > >>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the > >> theme of > >>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written > >> by a > >>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the > >>>> deep > >>>>> questions of life and existence. > >>>>> > >>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > >>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the > >>>> audience > >>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of > >> the > >>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic > questions > >>>> and > >>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the > >> concept of > >>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary > >>>>> discourse. > >>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these > >> humanistic > >>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his > >> biography > >>>> of > >>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to > >>>> Vygotsky's > >>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and > >>>>> tragedy? > >>>>> Larry > >>>> > >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Tue Mar 18 18:03:56 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 01:03:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, So LSV, in Crisis for example, was keen to resolve the dualism of material/idealism (also causal/descriptive), by opting for a materialist psychology that adopted (some of the aspects of) 'analysis' from phenomenology (and Gestalt psychology). The result, an idiographic science that provided explanation not in the form of general laws but through the examination of specific genetic processes. Or did Luria transcend the idiographic/nomothetic dichotomy rather than opting for one? Martin On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:21 PM, mike cole > wrote: David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and too literally. I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak of LSV in those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together with explanatory/descriptive. Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line that David points to: "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic tendencies." My failure was that I have long thought of the split being confronted as between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred to me to equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to think of Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of overcoming the nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps make sense of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have used the term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. mike On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: Mike, Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? Martin On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole > wrote: > I thought you had an actual example, David. > > So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, > with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did not > claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it > made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. > > Hence my question. > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >wrote: > >> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and >> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is >> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on >> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, >> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. >> >> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their >> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and >> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws >> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field >> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living >> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The >> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, >> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." >> >> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the >> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the >> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want >> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to >> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that >> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost >> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and >> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." >> >> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? >> >> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky >> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", >> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and >> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of >> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole > wrote: >>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic >> Science. >>> I missed it! >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg > >> wrote: >>> >>>> Larry: >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >>>> Hamlet. >>>> >>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >>>> it from the way things are. >>>> >>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >>>> men. >>>> >>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >>>> board. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss > wrote: >>>>> Mike, >>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >>>> intellectual. >>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* >> in >>>>> their publications. >>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >>>> [Vygotsky's >>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >>>>> >>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends >> in >>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory by >>>> his >>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the >> West >>>>> in the 1960's . >>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >>>> What >>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >>>> mediation, >>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >>>> cultural >>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >>>>> >>>>> Alex writes: >>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in >> a >>>> new >>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >>>> comes >>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of >> communicative >>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >>>> contribution >>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least >> BEYOND >>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on >> the >>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >>>>> >>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 >> years >>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. >> In >>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings >> explored >>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the >> theme of >>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written >> by a >>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >>>> deep >>>>> questions of life and existence. >>>>> >>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >>>> audience >>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of >> the >>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic questions >>>> and >>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the >> concept of >>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >>>>> discourse. >>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these >> humanistic >>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his >> biography >>>> of >>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >>>> Vygotsky's >>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >>>>> tragedy? >>>>> Larry >>>> >> From ablunden@mira.net Tue Mar 18 18:12:48 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 12:12:48 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5328EF10.3010501@mira.net> My reading is this. "Romantic Science" I associate with Goethe, and the fragile thread of scientists which followed him. Goethe himself insisted that his ideas about science were no to be seen as exclusive or antagonistic to positivist approaches. He used the diversity of Christian sects active in the New York of his day as a metaphor for how he saw science as developing, as against the homeogeneity of a state religion. So far as I know, it was only Luria who self-identified with "romantic science", but I think it is fair to say that Vygotsky was also, but Vygotsky identified himself as a Marxist, not a Romantic. I do not see the Romantic/Positivist difference as descriptive/explanatory, though I can see the basis for that. Romantic science prefers to use what is given in experience as the foundation for explanation, rather than postulating metaphysical "forces" which are beyond sensation as explanations for what is given in experience, which is what positivism does. For Goethe, Newton was the archetype of this. I think the nomothetic/ideographic distinction is also another valid rendering of the Romantic/Positivist difference, but I think it is only partial. It is one possible way of implementing the conviction that we must resist, so far as possible, abstracting from experience. But for Goethe, it was always a question of resisting that for as long as possible, never a rejection of the necessity of abstracting altogether. That's why he called Romantic Science a "delicate empiricism." It is true that it is very fashionable nowadays (and for at least a generation) to claim holism and various similar ideas. The point with Romanticism is not so much the aim of holistic synthesis rather than positivist analysis, but Romanticism shows *how* it is possible to "begin from the whole." Positivist efforts at "holistic analysis" are usually, in my view, forms of words alone, beginning by gathering a whole bunch of abstractions together and calling them the whole, and then re-discovering the abstractions again. But as Hegel said, "there is nothing on Earth, in Heaven or anywhere else, that is not both mediated and immediate." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and too > literally. > > I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian characterization > of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak of LSV > in those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together with > explanatory/descriptive. > > > Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line that > David points to: > > "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky was > his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the > crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic > tendencies." > > My failure was that I have long thought of the split being confronted as > between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred to me > to equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to think of > Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of overcoming > the nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. > > Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps make sense > of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have used > the term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. > > mike > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> > > >> Mike, >> >> Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra >> the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading >> that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? >> >> Martin >> >> On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> I thought you had an actual example, David. >>> >>> So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, >>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did >>> >> not >> >>> claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it >>> made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. >>> >>> Hence my question. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and >>>> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is >>>> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on >>>> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, >>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. >>>> >>>> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their >>>> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and >>>> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws >>>> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field >>>> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living >>>> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The >>>> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, >>>> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." >>>> >>>> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the >>>> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the >>>> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want >>>> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to >>>> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that >>>> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost >>>> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and >>>> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." >>>> >>>> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? >>>> >>>> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky >>>> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", >>>> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and >>>> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of >>>> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic >>>>> >>>> Science. >>>> >>>>> I missed it! >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Larry: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >>>>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >>>>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >>>>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >>>>>> Hamlet. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >>>>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >>>>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >>>>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >>>>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >>>>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >>>>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >>>>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >>>>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >>>>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >>>>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >>>>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >>>>>> it from the way things are. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >>>>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >>>>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >>>>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >>>>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >>>>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >>>>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >>>>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >>>>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >>>>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >>>>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >>>>>> men. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >>>>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >>>>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >>>>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >>>>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >>>>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >>>>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >>>>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >>>>>> board. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >>>>>>> >>>>>> intellectual. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* >>>>>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>>>>> their publications. >>>>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >>>>>>> >>>>>> [Vygotsky's >>>>>> >>>>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends >>>>>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >>>>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory >>>>>>> >> by >> >>>>>> his >>>>>> >>>>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the >>>>>>> >>>> West >>>> >>>>>>> in the 1960's . >>>>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >>>>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >>>>>>> >>>>>> What >>>>>> >>>>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >>>>>>> >>>>>> mediation, >>>>>> >>>>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >>>>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >>>>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >>>>>>> >>>>>> cultural >>>>>> >>>>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alex writes: >>>>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in >>>>>>> >>>> a >>>> >>>>>> new >>>>>> >>>>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >>>>>>> >>>>>> comes >>>>>> >>>>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of >>>>>>> >>>> communicative >>>> >>>>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >>>>>>> >>>>>> contribution >>>>>> >>>>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least >>>>>>> >>>> BEYOND >>>> >>>>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on >>>>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 >>>>>>> >>>> years >>>> >>>>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. >>>>>>> >>>> In >>>> >>>>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings >>>>>>> >>>> explored >>>> >>>>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the >>>>>>> >>>> theme of >>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written >>>>>>> >>>> by a >>>> >>>>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >>>>>>> >>>>>> deep >>>>>> >>>>>>> questions of life and existence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >>>>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >>>>>>> >>>>>> audience >>>>>> >>>>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of >>>>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic >>>>>>> >> questions >> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the >>>>>>> >>>> concept of >>>> >>>>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >>>>>>> discourse. >>>>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these >>>>>>> >>>> humanistic >>>> >>>>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his >>>>>>> >>>> biography >>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >>>>>>> >>>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>>> >>>>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >>>>>>> tragedy? >>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>> >> > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Mar 18 18:30:43 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 10:30:43 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Mike's right (if we bar his "idiocyncratic" spellings and his tendency to say LSV when he actually means ARL). Luria DOES see LSV has overcoming the explanatory/descriptive divide; that is certainly the gist of the passage that I cited, and to the extent that this divide reflects in a direct way the classical/romantic split, LSV is not, in the eyes of Luria, or Mike, or even me, a romantic scientist at all. He transcends romantic and classical science by "setting aside" the dispute. But of course the divide between descriptivists like Dilthey and Husserl on the one hand and explanationists like Bekhterev, Pavlov (and why not Watson and Thorndike) on the other doesn't directly reflect the divide between romantic and classical science. This is a point that Mike also makes with great aplomb when he says that the former is a trace of German romanticism (and the latter, I might add, has more than a whiff of merciless French rationalism). First of all, the great divide is much older. we already see it in the split between Vico's principle of "verum factum" (that is, man only knows what he creates, so the social is more describable and more knowable than the natural) and in merciless Cartesian reductionism. Secondly, it is younger: we still see it in the split between "learner-centred" and "learning-centred" pedagogics in language education (just for example). The point I want to make is similar to the one that Martin made in his MCA article on the relevance of Vygotsky and the Historical Meaning of the Crisis in Psychology, when Martin points out that Vygotsky's initial solution to the crisis is to cut idealism from materialism and throw out the former entirely. When we overcome a split in the struggle of ideas, we don't always go about it impartially, the way that a parent mediates between two quarreling siblings. When Vygotsky set out to overcome the split between idealism and materialism in psychology, he set out as a dedicated partisan of one side, namely the latter. It was only through a process of struggle with idealism that he came to recognize that the idealists were just as right about the triviality of the results of materialist psychology as the materialists were right about the purely speculative and ultimately non-explanatory nature of idealism. From there it was a hop, skip, and a jump to the momentous realization that the so-called "materialists" too suffered from atomism--that is, from an individualistic psychology centred on the human body. So I think Luria was right--that Vygotsky set out to overcome the divide between romantic and classical psychology as a militant partisan of the romantic side. Somebody like Vygotsky would be no more "neutral" in the struggle between Gestaltism and reductionism than he was in the struggle between communism and fascism. But I also think that even before the struggle began, Vygotsky was steeped in classical, explanatory, and even atomistic ideas (after all, he was trained in the school of Bekhterev, and "Psychology of Art" is essentially an attempt to EXPLAIN the "aesthetic reaction"), and, far earlier than anybody else, Vygotsky realized that romantic and classical approaches were essentially right about each other--they were both inadequate--and that they would have to be combined by transcending individualistic psychology altogether. That's what I see in LSV's work on Hamlet. The romantic view of Hamlet is Goethe's; Hamlet as Goethe, as Coleridge, as hero-poet. Gordon gives this view artistic form when he makes the play a monodrama. The classical view of Hamlet is almost Aristotelian: Hamlet is morally blameless, but marked by a fatal flaw, which is one that we all share, and whose contemplation is therefore terrifying, the way that watching your own corpse rotting away would be terrifying. Stanislavski gives this view shape when he makes it a historical drama. The problem is that both are profoundly individualistic views; neither can show us how Shakespeare tweaked the "aside" into the soliloquy, and how this allowed him to transcend the "Revenge" play by re-inventing inter-psychological terror becomes intra-psychological horror. Only a social-historical view of Hamlet can really do that. I've also been re-reading Halliday's wonderful volume on the language of early childhood (The Language of Early Childhood, London: Continuum, 2004). He begins by rejecting the big split that made the whole twentieth century one big "lost decade" for linguistics: naturalism versus empiricism. Both are atomistic, individualistic, and both argue that language is "out there" to be acquired or "constructed" rather than construed ("figured out"). He argues that learning the mother tongue is figuring out a SECOND language--that is, the child has a language system "for himself" worked out, and must abandon it in order to learn a language "for others", the result of which is a language "for myself". Yes, there is some Hegel in there, but also some Spinoza. And, although he only cites him occasionally, Halliday is a very assiduous reader of Vygotsky! David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Mar 18 19:58:30 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 19:58:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Job Opportunity: Postdoctoral Scholar - please circulate widely! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mimi Ito Date: Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:17 AM Subject: Job Opportunity: Postdoctoral Scholar - please circulate widely! To: Mimi Ito Having trouble viewing this email? Click here * Job Opportunity: Postdoctoral Scholar, Digital Media & Learning Research Hub, Connected Learning Research Network * UCHRI announces a Postdoctoral Scholar position for the Digital Media & Learning Research Hub, Connected Learning Research Network. One postdoctoral position is available in the Digital Media & Learning Research Hub, at the UC Humanities Research Institute, based on the Irvine campus. The postdoctoral scholar will collaborate in a MacArthur Foundation-funded research network on Connected Learning, investigating how new digital and networked media can support interest-driven and socially connected forms of learning. The postdoctoral scholar will be responsible for conducting ethnographic research on interest-driven learning with digital media, with a focus on parental involvement, analyzing research findings and working collaboratively with principle investigators and others involved in the research network. *Requirements* - Candidates should have a Ph.D. in a relevant discipline and research experience with contemporary developments concerning youth, digital media and learning. Preference will be given to candidates with experience in ethnographic and online research with families and youth and expertise in learning theory, Internet research, game studies, and design research. Evidence of collaborative and mixed methods research will also be valued. Travel may be required in this position to perform research and meet with collaborators. Position is dependent on extramural funding. Initial appointment is for one year and renewal is based on performance and is contingent on receipt of project funding. Review of applications will begin immediately and will continue through application deadline of April 11, 2014. The appointment may begin as early as August 1, 2014 and would continue until July 31, 2015, renewable pending review and available funding. Annual salary ranges from $52,000 to $56,243 depending on experience. *Application Procedure:* Applications should be submitted online at https://recruit.ap.uci.edu/apply/JPF02242 and must include: 1. Letter of Interest (including research skills) 2. Curriculum Vitae 3. Three Letters of Reference More information about the Connected Learning Research Network can be found at http://clrn.dmlhub.net . Please contact Courtney Santos at dmlhub@hri.uci.edu with any questions about the application process. The University of California, Irvine is an equal opportunity employer committed to excellence through diversity. Forward email This email was sent to mito@hri.uci.edu by communications@hri.uci.edu | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe(tm) | Privacy Policy . University of California Humanities Research Institute | 4000 Humanities Gateway | Irvine | CA | 92697-3350 From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Wed Mar 19 09:12:45 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:12:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: <5328EF10.3010501@mira.net> References: <5328EF10.3010501@mira.net> Message-ID: <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> Andy, I find your comments very helpful. The Social Studies of Science people have, in my view, been very successful in showing that science, all science, seeks ways to make new phenomena visible - in other words, to expand 'what is given in experience' - in order to expand the range of explanation. Ironically, the positivists were also opposed to building scientific knowledge on anything other than experience, but they had a narrow view of what experience consists of, limiting it basically to atomic sensations. In the social sciences is not positivism but what has been called "Formal science" that has insisted on trying to explain what is visible in terms of structures or functions that are abstractions, putting the cart before the horse. It seems to me that LSV was wise in finding something of value in the phenomenology of his time (Husserl and Shpet), because since then phenomenologists - such as Merleau-Ponty and Garfinkel - have continued to insist the inquiry must be based on experience, and have demonstrated the power of this approach. Martin On Mar 18, 2014, at 8:12 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > My reading is this. > "Romantic Science" I associate with Goethe, and the fragile thread of scientists which followed him. > Goethe himself insisted that his ideas about science were no to be seen as exclusive or antagonistic to positivist approaches. He used the diversity of Christian sects active in the New York of his day as a metaphor for how he saw science as developing, as against the homeogeneity of a state religion. > So far as I know, it was only Luria who self-identified with "romantic science", but I think it is fair to say that Vygotsky was also, but Vygotsky identified himself as a Marxist, not a Romantic. > I do not see the Romantic/Positivist difference as descriptive/explanatory, though I can see the basis for that. Romantic science prefers to use what is given in experience as the foundation for explanation, rather than postulating metaphysical "forces" which are beyond sensation as explanations for what is given in experience, which is what positivism does. For Goethe, Newton was the archetype of this. > I think the nomothetic/ideographic distinction is also another valid rendering of the Romantic/Positivist difference, but I think it is only partial. It is one possible way of implementing the conviction that we must resist, so far as possible, abstracting from experience. But for Goethe, it was always a question of resisting that for as long as possible, never a rejection of the necessity of abstracting altogether. That's why he called Romantic Science a "delicate empiricism." > It is true that it is very fashionable nowadays (and for at least a generation) to claim holism and various similar ideas. The point with Romanticism is not so much the aim of holistic synthesis rather than positivist analysis, but Romanticism shows *how* it is possible to "begin from the whole." Positivist efforts at "holistic analysis" are usually, in my view, forms of words alone, beginning by gathering a whole bunch of abstractions together and calling them the whole, and then re-discovering the abstractions again. > But as Hegel said, "there is nothing on Earth, in Heaven or anywhere else, that is not both mediated and immediate." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and too >> literally. >> >> I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian characterization >> of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak of LSV >> in those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together with >> explanatory/descriptive. >> >> >> Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line that >> David points to: >> >> "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky was >> his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the >> crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic >> tendencies." >> >> My failure was that I have long thought of the split being confronted as >> between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred to me >> to equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to think of >> Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of overcoming >> the nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. >> >> Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps make sense >> of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have used >> the term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer > >>> wrote: >>> >> >> >>> Mike, >>> >>> Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra >>> the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading >>> that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I thought you had an actual example, David. >>>> >>>> So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, >>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did >>>> >>> not >>> >>>> claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it >>>> made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. >>>> >>>> Hence my question. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and >>>>> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is >>>>> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on >>>>> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, >>>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. >>>>> >>>>> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their >>>>> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and >>>>> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws >>>>> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field >>>>> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living >>>>> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The >>>>> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, >>>>> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." >>>>> >>>>> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the >>>>> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the >>>>> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want >>>>> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to >>>>> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that >>>>> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost >>>>> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and >>>>> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." >>>>> >>>>> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? >>>>> >>>>> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky >>>>> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", >>>>> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and >>>>> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of >>>>> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic >>>>>> >>>>> Science. >>>>> >>>>>> I missed it! >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> Larry: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >>>>>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >>>>>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >>>>>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >>>>>>> Hamlet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >>>>>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >>>>>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >>>>>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >>>>>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >>>>>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >>>>>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >>>>>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >>>>>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >>>>>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >>>>>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >>>>>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >>>>>>> it from the way things are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >>>>>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >>>>>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >>>>>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >>>>>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >>>>>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >>>>>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >>>>>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >>>>>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >>>>>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >>>>>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >>>>>>> men. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >>>>>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >>>>>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >>>>>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >>>>>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >>>>>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >>>>>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >>>>>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >>>>>>> board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> intellectual. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* >>>>>>>> >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>> their publications. >>>>>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Vygotsky's >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends >>>>>>>> >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >>>>>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory >>>>>>>> >>> by >>> >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the >>>>>>>> >>>>> West >>>>> >>>>>>>> in the 1960's . >>>>>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >>>>>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> What >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> mediation, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >>>>>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >>>>>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> cultural >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alex writes: >>>>>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in >>>>>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> comes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of >>>>>>>> >>>>> communicative >>>>> >>>>>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> contribution >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least >>>>>>>> >>>>> BEYOND >>>>> >>>>>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on >>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 >>>>>>>> >>>>> years >>>>> >>>>>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. >>>>>>>> >>>>> In >>>>> >>>>>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings >>>>>>>> >>>>> explored >>>>> >>>>>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the >>>>>>>> >>>>> theme of >>>>> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written >>>>>>>> >>>>> by a >>>>> >>>>>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> deep >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> questions of life and existence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >>>>>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> audience >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of >>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic >>>>>>>> >>> questions >>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the >>>>>>>> >>>>> concept of >>>>> >>>>>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >>>>>>>> discourse. >>>>>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these >>>>>>>> >>>>> humanistic >>>>> >>>>>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his >>>>>>>> >>>>> biography >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >>>>>>>> tragedy? >>>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>>> >>> >> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 19 14:20:02 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 21:20:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5328EF10.3010501@mira.net> <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: This is all seems to boil down to the acknowledging the contingencies in any classificatory divisions. Note that this is not done in the "two types of scientists" description [1], which suggests that its used as a heuristic device. Huw [1] http://www.marxists.org/archive/luria/works/1979/mind/ch10.htm On 19 March 2014 16:12, Martin John Packer wrote: > Andy, > > I find your comments very helpful. The Social Studies of Science people > have, in my view, been very successful in showing that science, all > science, seeks ways to make new phenomena visible - in other words, to > expand 'what is given in experience' - in order to expand the range of > explanation. Ironically, the positivists were also opposed to building > scientific knowledge on anything other than experience, but they had a > narrow view of what experience consists of, limiting it basically to atomic > sensations. In the social sciences is not positivism but what has been > called "Formal science" that has insisted on trying to explain what is > visible in terms of structures or functions that are abstractions, putting > the cart before the horse. It seems to me that LSV was wise in finding > something of value in the phenomenology of his time (Husserl and Shpet), > because since then phenomenologists - such as Merleau-Ponty and Garfinkel - > have continued to insist the inquiry must be based on experience, and have > demonstrated the power of this approach. > > Martin > > > On Mar 18, 2014, at 8:12 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > My reading is this. > > "Romantic Science" I associate with Goethe, and the fragile thread of > scientists which followed him. > > Goethe himself insisted that his ideas about science were no to be seen > as exclusive or antagonistic to positivist approaches. He used the > diversity of Christian sects active in the New York of his day as a > metaphor for how he saw science as developing, as against the homeogeneity > of a state religion. > > So far as I know, it was only Luria who self-identified with "romantic > science", but I think it is fair to say that Vygotsky was also, but > Vygotsky identified himself as a Marxist, not a Romantic. > > I do not see the Romantic/Positivist difference as > descriptive/explanatory, though I can see the basis for that. Romantic > science prefers to use what is given in experience as the foundation for > explanation, rather than postulating metaphysical "forces" which are beyond > sensation as explanations for what is given in experience, which is what > positivism does. For Goethe, Newton was the archetype of this. > > I think the nomothetic/ideographic distinction is also another valid > rendering of the Romantic/Positivist difference, but I think it is only > partial. It is one possible way of implementing the conviction that we must > resist, so far as possible, abstracting from experience. But for Goethe, it > was always a question of resisting that for as long as possible, never a > rejection of the necessity of abstracting altogether. That's why he called > Romantic Science a "delicate empiricism." > > It is true that it is very fashionable nowadays (and for at least a > generation) to claim holism and various similar ideas. The point with > Romanticism is not so much the aim of holistic synthesis rather than > positivist analysis, but Romanticism shows *how* it is possible to "begin > from the whole." Positivist efforts at "holistic analysis" are usually, in > my view, forms of words alone, beginning by gathering a whole bunch of > abstractions together and calling them the whole, and then re-discovering > the abstractions again. > > But as Hegel said, "there is nothing on Earth, in Heaven or anywhere > else, that is not both mediated and immediate." > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and too > >> literally. > >> > >> I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian > characterization > >> of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak of > LSV > >> in those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together with > >> explanatory/descriptive. > >> > >> > >> Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line that > >> David points to: > >> > >> "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky > was > >> his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the > >> crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic > >> tendencies." > >> > >> My failure was that I have long thought of the split being confronted as > >> between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred to > me > >> to equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to > think of > >> Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of overcoming > >> the nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. > >> > >> Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps make > sense > >> of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have used > >> the term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. > >> > >> mike > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >> > >> > >>> Mike, > >>> > >>> Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science > contra > >>> the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading > >>> that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> I thought you had an actual example, David. > >>>> > >>>> So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, > >>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who > did > >>>> > >>> not > >>> > >>>> claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote > it > >>>> made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. > >>>> > >>>> Hence my question. > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and > >>>>> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is > >>>>> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But > on > >>>>> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, > >>>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. > >>>>> > >>>>> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their > >>>>> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and > >>>>> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws > >>>>> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field > >>>>> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living > >>>>> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The > >>>>> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, > >>>>> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." > >>>>> > >>>>> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the > >>>>> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the > >>>>> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want > >>>>> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to > >>>>> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models > that > >>>>> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost > >>>>> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and > >>>>> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." > >>>>> > >>>>> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? > >>>>> > >>>>> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky > >>>>> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", > >>>>> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and > >>>>> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of > >>>>> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. > >>>>> > >>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>>> > >>>>> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic > >>>>>> > >>>>> Science. > >>>>> > >>>>>> I missed it! > >>>>>> mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com> > >>>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> Larry: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand > of > >>>>>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of > >>>>>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan > >>>>>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on > >>>>>>> Hamlet. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a > >>>>>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam > >>>>>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's > Demons" in > >>>>>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST > >>>>>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I > read > >>>>>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the > >>>>>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an > >>>>>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. > Hamlet's > >>>>>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the > others > >>>>>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he > perceives > >>>>>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor > is > >>>>>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to > distinguish > >>>>>>> it from the way things are. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > >>>>>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it > or > >>>>>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge > influence > >>>>>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the > >>>>>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). > >>>>>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's > version > >>>>>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before > >>>>>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody > in > >>>>>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). > >>>>>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real > people > >>>>>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man > amongst > >>>>>>> men. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted > >>>>>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in > which > >>>>>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to > the > >>>>>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of > individual > >>>>>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And > the > >>>>>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think > >>>>>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, > I > >>>>>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on > >>>>>>> board. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Mike, > >>>>>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> intellectual. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars > *address* > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> in > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> their publications. > >>>>>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> [Vygotsky's > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three > trends > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> in > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > >>>>>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's > theory > >>>>>>>> > >>> by > >>> > >>>>>>> his > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > >>>>>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in > the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> West > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> in the 1960's . > >>>>>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky > >>>>>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the > 1920's. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> mediation, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic > >>>>>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically > new > >>>>>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> cultural > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Alex writes: > >>>>>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being > seen in > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> a > >>>>> > >>>>>>> new > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and > Piaget > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> comes > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> communicative > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> contribution > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> BEYOND > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED > on > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> years > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and > relevant. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> In > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> explored > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> theme of > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were > written > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> by a > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in > the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> deep > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> questions of life and existence. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > >>>>>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> audience > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the > question of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic > >>>>>>>> > >>> questions > >>> > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> concept of > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic > disciplinary > >>>>>>>> discourse. > >>>>>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> humanistic > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> biography > >>>>> > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Vygotsky's > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art > and > >>>>>>>> tragedy? > >>>>>>>> Larry > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 19 16:54:28 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 10:54:28 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5328EF10.3010501@mira.net> <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <532A2E34.3010107@mira.net> Yes, and LSV's appropriation of the Behaviourists is complex, too. I am of the view that right from the beginning (I mean 1924) he rejected Behaviourism, but he shows by means of immanent critique, how what is true in Behaviourism has to be appropriated by a Psychology which is worthy of the name, and takes consciousness to be the foundation of understanding behaviour. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Martin John Packer wrote: > Andy, > > I find your comments very helpful. The Social Studies of Science people have, in my view, been very successful in showing that science, all science, seeks ways to make new phenomena visible - in other words, to expand 'what is given in experience' - in order to expand the range of explanation. Ironically, the positivists were also opposed to building scientific knowledge on anything other than experience, but they had a narrow view of what experience consists of, limiting it basically to atomic sensations. In the social sciences is not positivism but what has been called "Formal science" that has insisted on trying to explain what is visible in terms of structures or functions that are abstractions, putting the cart before the horse. It seems to me that LSV was wise in finding something of value in the phenomenology of his time (Husserl and Shpet), because since then phenomenologists - such as Merleau-Ponty and Garfinkel - have continued to insist the inquiry must be based on experience, and have demonstrated the power of this approach. > > Martin > > > On Mar 18, 2014, at 8:12 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> My reading is this. >> "Romantic Science" I associate with Goethe, and the fragile thread of scientists which followed him. >> Goethe himself insisted that his ideas about science were no to be seen as exclusive or antagonistic to positivist approaches. He used the diversity of Christian sects active in the New York of his day as a metaphor for how he saw science as developing, as against the homeogeneity of a state religion. >> So far as I know, it was only Luria who self-identified with "romantic science", but I think it is fair to say that Vygotsky was also, but Vygotsky identified himself as a Marxist, not a Romantic. >> I do not see the Romantic/Positivist difference as descriptive/explanatory, though I can see the basis for that. Romantic science prefers to use what is given in experience as the foundation for explanation, rather than postulating metaphysical "forces" which are beyond sensation as explanations for what is given in experience, which is what positivism does. For Goethe, Newton was the archetype of this. >> I think the nomothetic/ideographic distinction is also another valid rendering of the Romantic/Positivist difference, but I think it is only partial. It is one possible way of implementing the conviction that we must resist, so far as possible, abstracting from experience. But for Goethe, it was always a question of resisting that for as long as possible, never a rejection of the necessity of abstracting altogether. That's why he called Romantic Science a "delicate empiricism." >> It is true that it is very fashionable nowadays (and for at least a generation) to claim holism and various similar ideas. The point with Romanticism is not so much the aim of holistic synthesis rather than positivist analysis, but Romanticism shows *how* it is possible to "begin from the whole." Positivist efforts at "holistic analysis" are usually, in my view, forms of words alone, beginning by gathering a whole bunch of abstractions together and calling them the whole, and then re-discovering the abstractions again. >> But as Hegel said, "there is nothing on Earth, in Heaven or anywhere else, that is not both mediated and immediate." >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and too >>> literally. >>> >>> I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian characterization >>> of Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak of LSV >>> in those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together with >>> explanatory/descriptive. >>> >>> >>> Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line that >>> David points to: >>> >>> "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky was >>> his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", meaning the >>> crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic >>> tendencies." >>> >>> My failure was that I have long thought of the split being confronted as >>> between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred to me >>> to equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to think of >>> Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of overcoming >>> the nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. >>> >>> Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps make sense >>> of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have used >>> the term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer >> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science contra >>>> the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your reading >>>> that Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I thought you had an actual example, David. >>>>> >>>>> So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " holism, >>>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many who did >>>>> >>>>> >>>> not >>>> >>>> >>>>> claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you wrote it >>>>> made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific individual. >>>>> >>>>> Hence my question. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael and >>>>>> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic scientist" is >>>>>> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. But on >>>>>> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with holism, >>>>>> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite quotes. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of their >>>>>> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units and >>>>>> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These laws >>>>>> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the field >>>>>> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of living >>>>>> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. The >>>>>> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to pen, >>>>>> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." >>>>>> >>>>>> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just the >>>>>> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is the >>>>>> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science want >>>>>> neither to split living reality into its elementary components nor to >>>>>> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract models that >>>>>> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the utmost >>>>>> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living reality, and >>>>>> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." >>>>>> >>>>>> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? >>>>>> >>>>>> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to Vygotsky >>>>>> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", >>>>>> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical and >>>>>> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after wave of >>>>>> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in Romantic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Science. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I missed it! >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Larry: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a strand of >>>>>>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that part of >>>>>>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of Vygotskyan >>>>>>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically on >>>>>>>> Hamlet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of Vygotsky as a >>>>>>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda Mandelstam >>>>>>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's Demons" in >>>>>>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas AGAINST >>>>>>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. When I read >>>>>>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected the >>>>>>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, an >>>>>>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. Hamlet's >>>>>>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And the others >>>>>>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he perceives >>>>>>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own body, nor is >>>>>>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to distinguish >>>>>>>> it from the way things are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin >>>>>>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he saw it or >>>>>>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge influence >>>>>>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky saw the >>>>>>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of it). >>>>>>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's version >>>>>>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart before >>>>>>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, everybody in >>>>>>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of Hamlet). >>>>>>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of real people >>>>>>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man amongst >>>>>>>> men. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and accounted >>>>>>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way in which >>>>>>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much closer to the >>>>>>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of individual >>>>>>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. And the >>>>>>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I think >>>>>>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we find, I >>>>>>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and sound on >>>>>>>> board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike, >>>>>>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a public >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> intellectual. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars *address* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> their publications. >>>>>>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years ago >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Vygotsky's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing three trends >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. >>>>>>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's theory >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> by >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. >>>>>>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's theory in the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> West >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in the 1960's . >>>>>>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of Vygotsky >>>>>>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of the 1920's. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of social >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mediation, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the individualistic >>>>>>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a radically new >>>>>>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory social AND >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cultural >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alex writes: >>>>>>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now being seen in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> comes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> communicative >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like Vygotsky's >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> contribution >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> BEYOND >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies BASED on >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to others 25 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and relevant. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> In >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic writings >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> explored >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> theme of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were written >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> by a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through engaging in the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> deep >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> questions of life and existence. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? >>>>>>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to be the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> audience >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the question of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> questions >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> concept of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic disciplinary >>>>>>>>> discourse. >>>>>>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for these >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> humanistic >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in his >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> biography >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How central to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on art and >>>>>>>>> tragedy? >>>>>>>>> Larry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Mar 19 18:04:12 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:04:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Alex Kozulin's notion of three planes of understanding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darn. As you point out, David, so many translations are problematic. But yes, with exception of new material I have access to all you mention. Thanks. Good luck with the translation. There is now a whole new Palgrave series on Culture and Creativity. My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to explosion of concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in American discourse). mike On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 3:12 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike-- > > The publisher asked us to do a book on imagination and creativity. So > we re-translated three works that have all appeared--more or less--in > English. > > About half the book is Vygotsky 2004, which appeared in JREEP. Then > there is "imagination and creativity in the adolescent", which appears > in Van der Veer and Valsiner's Vygotsky Reader (it was part of > Pedology of the Adolescent) and finally there is the lecture > "Imagination and its Development in Childhood", which appears in an > abridged form in Volume One of the English Collected Works (after > Thinking and Speech). > > We were so taken with the lecture (LATE Vygotsky for beginners!) that > we decided to translate the whole volume of lectures that Galina > Korotaeva published in Russian in 2001 at the Udmurt University in > Izhevsk (you can find it in the Russian section on Andy's website). > > It's quite remarkable--in the second lecture, which we're translating > now, he basically tells these young teachers from various walks of > life (mostly workers and peasants, like Korotaeva's father) that he's > going to teach them his latest, unfinished work on age periods. These > are young people who are taking a course that has no future (pedology > has already been denounced at the level of the Russian Federation > though not yet at the all-Union level). I think when we're done (in a > year or so) we'll have something pretty clear to say about Vygotsky's > periodization scheme. > > Best, > David > > > > On 19 March 2014 13:22, mike cole wrote: > > Always glad to blame my failures of understanding on mistranslation. > > > > Is the book on imagination and creativity in English? I could not tell > from > > the web page. > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 8:30 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > >> > >> Thanks, Mike. There's nothing quite like the range you can read on > >> xmca, except maybe history itself. And of course Mike Cole, territory > >> and all, is a big part of that. > >> > >> On Psych of Art: The translation's excreable, even by the lamentable > >> standards of English translations of Vygotsky. Large parts are simply > >> incoherent. But it makes good sense in Russian. > >> > >> So we're applying for a big grant to retranslate it. If we get it > >> (unlikely), we'll do it next year, and I'll slip a pdf of the English > >> version to Anton for public distribution. If not, we're doing the > >> "Lectures on Pedology" instead, because it's more relevant to what we > >> do here in Korea (and also because it's late Vygotsky for absolute > >> beginners). > >> > >> We might do both at the same time, just for fun. We did two volumes > >> last year (HDHMF and Imagination and Creativity) and we had a great > >> old time. See? > >> > >> > >> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/common/wseriesitem.aspx?SRID=25565 > >> > >> dk > >> > >> PS: Thanks for the post-doc announcements too: Yongho (now Dr. Kim) > >> keeps hoping! > >> > >> d > >> > >> On 19 March 2014 10:41, mike cole wrote: > >> > See, that is what I mean about historical depth, both Andy's tracing > >> > back to > >> > Goethe and you going further back to Vico. Its been 30 years since I > >> > read > >> > Berlin's Vico and Herder and I am pretty sure I did not tie it back to > >> > Goethe! > >> > (My modular mind). > >> > > >> > I think you are right about Vygotsky. Your interpretation fits with > Jim > >> > Wertsch's ideas about the ambivalence in Vygotsky and adds a temporal > >> > dimension that is useful. Perhaps its the form of attribution > combined > >> > with > >> > my lack of knowledge that made me question the attribution and odd > entry > >> > into the issues in a neuropsychological clinic. I had a very difficult > >> > time, > >> > and still do, reading and understanding Psychology of Art. > >> > > >> > A comment on the following: > >> > "Vygotsky realized that romantic and classical approaches were > >> > essentially > >> > right about each other--they were both inadequate--and that they would > >> > have > >> > to be combined by transcending individualistic psychology altogether." > >> > > >> > This seems right to me because Luria's form of romantic science is not > >> > either or, but both/and, a result achieved through his deep > involvement > >> > over > >> > a long period of time with specific other human beings. During all of > >> > this > >> > time he also worked using the methods of experimental psychology. The > >> > two > >> > are mixed together in different ways/textures in different concrete > >> > instantiations. > >> > > >> > Anyway, great to be able to engage in this kind of learning > experience. > >> > > >> > Sorry about my lousy typing/memory, never mind spelling. It comes with > >> > the > >> > territory. > >> > mike > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 6:27 PM, David Kellogg > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I think Mike's right (if we bar his "idiocyncratic" spellings and his > >> >> tendency to say LSV when he actually means ARL). Luria DOES see LSV > >> >> has overcoming the explanatory/descriptive divide; that is certainly > >> >> the gist of the passage that I cited, and to the extent that this > >> >> divide reflects in a direct way the classical/romantic split, LSV is > >> >> not, in the eyes of Luria, or Mike, or even me, a romantic scientist > >> >> at all. He transcends romantic and classical science by "setting > >> >> aside" the dispute. > >> >> > >> >> But of course the divide between descriptivists like Dilthey and > >> >> Husserl on the one hand and explanationists like Bekhterev, Pavlov > >> >> (and why not Watson and Thorndike) on the other doesn't directly > >> >> reflect the divide between romantic and classical science. This is a > >> >> point that Mike also makes with great aplomb when he says that the > >> >> former is a trace of German romanticism (and the latter, I might add, > >> >> has more than a whiff of merciless French rationalism). First of all, > >> >> the great divide is much older. we already see it in the split > between > >> >> Vico's principle of "verum factum" (that is, man only knows what he > >> >> creates, so the social is more describable and more knowable than the > >> >> natural) and in merciless Cartesian reductionism. Secondly, it is > >> >> younger: we still see it in the split between "learner-centred" and > >> >> "learning-centred" pedagogics in language education (just for > >> >> example). > >> >> > >> >> The point I want to make is similar to the one that Martin made in > his > >> >> MCA article on the relevance of Vygotsky and the Historical Meaning > of > >> >> the Crisis in Psychology, when Martin points out that Vygotsky's > >> >> initial solution to the crisis is to cut idealism from materialism > and > >> >> throw out the former entirely. When we overcome a split in the > >> >> struggle of ideas, we don't always go about it impartially, the way > >> >> that a parent mediates between two quarreling siblings. When Vygotsky > >> >> set out to overcome the split between idealism and materialism in > >> >> psychology, he set out as a dedicated partisan of one side, namely > the > >> >> latter. It was only through a process of struggle with idealism that > >> >> he came to recognize that the idealists were just as right about the > >> >> triviality of the results of materialist psychology as the > >> >> materialists were right about the purely speculative and ultimately > >> >> non-explanatory nature of idealism. From there it was a hop, skip, > and > >> >> a jump to the momentous realization that the so-called "materialists" > >> >> too suffered from atomism--that is, from an individualistic > psychology > >> >> centred on the human body. > >> >> > >> >> So I think Luria was right--that Vygotsky set out to overcome the > >> >> divide between romantic and classical psychology as a militant > >> >> partisan of the romantic side. Somebody like Vygotsky would be no > more > >> >> "neutral" in the struggle between Gestaltism and reductionism than he > >> >> was in the struggle between communism and fascism. But I also think > >> >> that even before the struggle began, Vygotsky was steeped in > >> >> classical, explanatory, and even atomistic ideas (after all, he was > >> >> trained in the school of Bekhterev, and "Psychology of Art" is > >> >> essentially an attempt to EXPLAIN the "aesthetic reaction"), and, far > >> >> earlier than anybody else, Vygotsky realized that romantic and > >> >> classical approaches were essentially right about each other--they > >> >> were both inadequate--and that they would have to be combined by > >> >> transcending individualistic psychology altogether. > >> >> > >> >> That's what I see in LSV's work on Hamlet. The romantic view of > Hamlet > >> >> is Goethe's; Hamlet as Goethe, as Coleridge, as hero-poet. Gordon > >> >> gives this view artistic form when he makes the play a monodrama. The > >> >> classical view of Hamlet is almost Aristotelian: Hamlet is morally > >> >> blameless, but marked by a fatal flaw, which is one that we all > share, > >> >> and whose contemplation is therefore terrifying, the way that > watching > >> >> your own corpse rotting away would be terrifying. Stanislavski gives > >> >> this view shape when he makes it a historical drama. The problem is > >> >> that both are profoundly individualistic views; neither can show us > >> >> how Shakespeare tweaked the "aside" into the soliloquy, and how this > >> >> allowed him to transcend the "Revenge" play by re-inventing > >> >> inter-psychological terror becomes intra-psychological horror. Only a > >> >> social-historical view of Hamlet can really do that. > >> >> > >> >> I've also been re-reading Halliday's wonderful volume on the language > >> >> of early childhood (The Language of Early Childhood, London: > >> >> Continuum, 2004). He begins by rejecting the big split that made the > >> >> whole twentieth century one big "lost decade" for linguistics: > >> >> naturalism versus empiricism. Both are atomistic, individualistic, > and > >> >> both argue that language is "out there" to be acquired or > >> >> "constructed" rather than construed ("figured out"). He argues that > >> >> learning the mother tongue is figuring out a SECOND language--that > is, > >> >> the child has a language system "for himself" worked out, and must > >> >> abandon it in order to learn a language "for others", the result of > >> >> which is a language "for myself". > >> >> > >> >> Yes, there is some Hegel in there, but also some Spinoza. And, > >> >> although he only cites him occasionally, Halliday is a very assiduous > >> >> reader of Vygotsky! > >> >> > >> >> David Kellogg > >> >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> >> > >> >> On 19 March 2014 09:21, mike cole wrote: > >> >> > David, Martin. My apologies if I was reading idiocyncratically and > >> >> > too > >> >> > literally. > >> >> > > >> >> > I stumbled when I read I have always resisted the Lurian > >> >> > characterization of > >> >> > Vygotsky as a romantic scientist, because I never heard ARL speak > of > >> >> > LSV > >> >> > in > >> >> > those terms, nor did I put his idea of romantic science together > with > >> >> > explanatory/descriptive. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Perhaps the problem is that I had not properly appreciated the line > >> >> > that > >> >> > David points to: > >> >> > > >> >> > "On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to > Vygotsky > >> >> > was > >> >> > his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this crisis", > meaning > >> >> > the > >> >> > crisis brought about by the split between classical and romantic > >> >> > tendencies." > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > My failure was that I have long thought of the split being > confronted > >> >> > as > >> >> > between explanatory and descriptive psychology. It had not occurred > >> >> > to > >> >> > me to > >> >> > equate descriptive with romantic. I also have, and continue, to > think > >> >> > of > >> >> > Luria's particular approach to romantic science as a means of > >> >> > overcoming > >> >> > the > >> >> > nomoethetic/idiographic dichotomy that is also at play here. > >> >> > > >> >> > Your way of putting this together with German romanticism helps > make > >> >> > sense > >> >> > of the way that more contemporary cultural historical scholars have > >> >> > used > >> >> > the > >> >> > term "non-classical" to refer to the Vygotskian tradition. > >> >> > > >> >> > mike > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Martin John Packer > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Mike, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Like David, I too have read Luria as arguing for romantic science > >> >> >> contra > >> >> >> the classical alternative, and attributing this to LSV. Is your > >> >> >> reading > >> >> >> that > >> >> >> Luria wants to combine the two, and this is what he saw LSV doing? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Martin > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2014, at 7:59 AM, mike cole > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I thought you had an actual example, David. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > So far as I know, LSV never used the term, and the terms " > holism, > >> >> >> > with anti-reductionism and Gestalt" were characteristic of many > >> >> >> > who > >> >> >> > did > >> >> >> > not > >> >> >> > claim romantic science as an organizing framework. The way you > >> >> >> > wrote > >> >> >> > it > >> >> >> > made it sound like a direct attribution to a specific > individual. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Hence my question. > >> >> >> > mike > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:18 PM, David Kellogg > >> >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> Oh, I got it from a wonderful book by Luria edited by Michael > and > >> >> >> >> Sheila Cole, "The Making of Mind". The phrase "romantic > >> >> >> >> scientist" > >> >> >> >> is > >> >> >> >> not really Luria's to begin with; he took it from Max Verwoern. > >> >> >> >> But > >> >> >> >> on > >> >> >> >> p. 174 of "The Making of Mind", he associates "romantic" with > >> >> >> >> holism, > >> >> >> >> with anti-reductionism and Gestalt, using Vygotsky's favorite > >> >> >> >> quotes. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "Classical scholars are those who look upon events in terms of > >> >> >> >> their > >> >> >> >> constituent parts. Step by step they single out important units > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> elements until they can formulate abstract general laws. These > >> >> >> >> laws > >> >> >> >> are then seen as the governing agents of the phenomena of the > >> >> >> >> field > >> >> >> >> under study. One outcoem of this approach is the reduction of > >> >> >> >> living > >> >> >> >> reality with all its richenss of detail to abstract schemas. > The > >> >> >> >> roperties ofhte iving whole are lost, which provoked Goethe to > >> >> >> >> pen, > >> >> >> >> 'Gray is eery theory, but ever green is the tree of life." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> "Romantic scholars traits, attitudes and strategies are just > the > >> >> >> >> opposite. They do not follow the path of reductionism, which is > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >> leading philosophy of the classical group. Romantics in science > >> >> >> >> want > >> >> >> >> neither to split living reality into its elementary components > >> >> >> >> nor > >> >> >> >> to > >> >> >> >> represent the wealth of life's concrete events in abstract > models > >> >> >> >> that > >> >> >> >> lose the properties of the phenomena themselves. It is of the > >> >> >> >> utmost > >> >> >> >> importance to romantics to preserve the wealth of living > reality, > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> they aspire to a science that retains this richness." > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Don't you think that sounds like a thumbnail of Vygotsky? > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On p. 175 he says "One of the major factors that drew me to > >> >> >> >> Vygotsky > >> >> >> >> was his emphasis on the necessity to resolve (sic) this > crisis", > >> >> >> >> meaning the crisis brought about by the split between classical > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> romantic tendencies. He then describes the rise of wave after > >> >> >> >> wave > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> reductionism in psychology in the twentieth century. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> David Kellogg > >> >> >> >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On 18 March 2014 12:14, mike cole wrote: > >> >> >> >>> David-- Where did luria say that Vygotsky was engaged in > >> >> >> >>> Romantic > >> >> >> >> Science. > >> >> >> >>> I missed it! > >> >> >> >>> mike > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>>> Larry: > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but I'd like to pick up a > >> >> >> >>>> strand > >> >> >> >>>> of > >> >> >> >>>> our thread that nobody else has touched. It's the idea that > >> >> >> >>>> part > >> >> >> >>>> of > >> >> >> >>>> the trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological element of > >> >> >> >>>> Vygotskyan > >> >> >> >>>> theory lies in his early work on esthetics, and specifically > on > >> >> >> >>>> Hamlet. > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> I have always resisted the Lurian characterization of > Vygotsky > >> >> >> >>>> as > >> >> >> >>>> a > >> >> >> >>>> romantic scientist, because I think he was, as Nadezhda > >> >> >> >>>> Mandelstam > >> >> >> >>>> said and as Bakhurst confirmed (in his piece on "Vygotsky's > >> >> >> >>>> Demons" > >> >> >> >>>> in > >> >> >> >>>> the Cambridge Companion), a defender of Enlightenment ideas > >> >> >> >>>> AGAINST > >> >> >> >>>> the Romantic counter-revolution of the nineteenth century. > When > >> >> >> >>>> I > >> >> >> >>>> read > >> >> >> >>>> Vygotsky on Hamlet, I can see that he has completely rejected > >> >> >> >>>> the > >> >> >> >>>> nineteenth century idea of Hamlet as romantic hero--that is, > an > >> >> >> >>>> inspired individual hero among lesser breeds without the law. > >> >> >> >>>> Hamlet's > >> >> >> >>>> depressed, not inspired. He's divided, not individual. And > the > >> >> >> >>>> others > >> >> >> >>>> in the play actually perceive Hamlet more accurately than he > >> >> >> >>>> perceives > >> >> >> >>>> himself; Hamlet simply cannot feel the weight of his own > body, > >> >> >> >>>> nor > >> >> >> >>>> is > >> >> >> >>>> he sufficiently aware of his own awareness to be able to > >> >> >> >>>> distinguish > >> >> >> >>>> it from the way things are. > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> But I recently read a lot about Gordon Craig and Konstantin > >> >> >> >>>> Stanislavski's 1912 Moscow production of Hamlet. Whether he > saw > >> >> >> >>>> it > >> >> >> >>>> or > >> >> >> >>>> not (and there is some debate on this point), it had a huge > >> >> >> >>>> influence > >> >> >> >>>> on the way that Vygotsky read Hamlet (we know that Vygotsky > saw > >> >> >> >>>> the > >> >> >> >>>> revival of the 1912 production and that he disapproved of > it). > >> >> >> >>>> Perversely true to the play text, Craig's and Stanislavski's > >> >> >> >>>> version > >> >> >> >>>> was a completely divided production that almost fell apart > >> >> >> >>>> before > >> >> >> >>>> opening night: Craig saw the play as monodrama (that is, > >> >> >> >>>> everybody > >> >> >> >>>> in > >> >> >> >>>> the play except Hamlet himself is a "ghost" in the mind of > >> >> >> >>>> Hamlet). > >> >> >> >>>> Stanislavski, of course, insisted on a historical drama of > real > >> >> >> >>>> people > >> >> >> >>>> whose motivations were all too human; Hamlet was simply a man > >> >> >> >>>> amongst > >> >> >> >>>> men. > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> You can see that all of Kozulin's planes are present and > >> >> >> >>>> accounted > >> >> >> >>>> for. Stanislavski, the social realist, accounts for the way > in > >> >> >> >>>> which > >> >> >> >>>> Vygotsky made sense to his contemporaries. Craig is much > closer > >> >> >> >>>> to > >> >> >> >>>> the > >> >> >> >>>> way we interpret Vygotsky today: a way of making sense of > >> >> >> >>>> individual > >> >> >> >>>> psychology, alongside the work of Freud, Piaget, and others. > >> >> >> >>>> And > >> >> >> >>>> the > >> >> >> >>>> third, trans-disciplinary, supra-psychological plane? Well, I > >> >> >> >>>> think > >> >> >> >>>> that is yet another plane that has gone missing. But when we > >> >> >> >>>> find, > >> >> >> >>>> I > >> >> >> >>>> am sure that we will see that Vygotsky himself is safe and > >> >> >> >>>> sound > >> >> >> >>>> on > >> >> >> >>>> board. > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> David Kellogg > >> >> >> >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> On 17 March 2014 06:17, Larry Purss > >> >> >> >>>> wrote: > >> >> >> >>>>> Mike, > >> >> >> >>>>> thanks for sending the article on the risks of being a > public > >> >> >> >>>> intellectual. > >> >> >> >>>>> Anna Sfard also recently posted on who university scholars > >> >> >> >>>>> *address* > >> >> >> >> in > >> >> >> >>>>> their publications. > >> >> >> >>>>> I have been re-reading Alex Kozulin's book written 25 years > >> >> >> >>>>> ago > >> >> >> >>>> [Vygotsky's > >> >> >> >>>>> Psychology: A Biography of Ideas.] > >> >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >> >>>>> Alex, in the epilogue to that book summed up by positing > three > >> >> >> >>>>> trends > >> >> >> >> in > >> >> >> >>>>> Vygotsky scholarship which he called three *planes*. > >> >> >> >>>>> The 1st plane corresponds to the understanding of Vygotsky's > >> >> >> >>>>> theory > >> >> >> >>>>> by > >> >> >> >>>> his > >> >> >> >>>>> contemporaries in the 1920's and 1930's. > >> >> >> >>>>> The 2nd plane emerges with the discovery of Vygotsky's > theory > >> >> >> >>>>> in > >> >> >> >>>>> the > >> >> >> >> West > >> >> >> >>>>> in the 1960's . > >> >> >> >>>>> In 1990 Kozulin perceived the emergence of a 3rd plane of > >> >> >> >>>>> Vygotsky > >> >> >> >>>>> scholarship which is re-evaluating the presuppositions of > the > >> >> >> >>>>> 1920's. > >> >> >> >>>> What > >> >> >> >>>>> in the 1920's appeared to be a straight forward thesis of > >> >> >> >>>>> social > >> >> >> >>>> mediation, > >> >> >> >>>>> and in the 1960's as a necessary corrective to the > >> >> >> >>>>> individualistic > >> >> >> >>>>> approaches of Western Psychology, in 1990 emerges as a > >> >> >> >>>>> radically > >> >> >> >>>>> new > >> >> >> >>>>> question. The realization that within Vygotsky's theory > social > >> >> >> >>>>> AND > >> >> >> >>>> cultural > >> >> >> >>>>> mediatory mechanisms do NOT coincide. > >> >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >> >>>>> Alex writes: > >> >> >> >>>>> "The origins and context of Vygotsky's theories are now > being > >> >> >> >>>>> seen > >> >> >> >>>>> in > >> >> >> >> a > >> >> >> >>>> new > >> >> >> >>>>> light; in place of comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists > and > >> >> >> >>>>> Piaget > >> >> >> >>>> comes > >> >> >> >>>>> the context of philosophical hermeneutics and the theory of > >> >> >> >> communicative > >> >> >> >>>>> action. In an even broader sense, what looked like > Vygotsky's > >> >> >> >>>> contribution > >> >> >> >>>>> TO psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at > >> >> >> >>>>> least > >> >> >> >> BEYOND > >> >> >> >>>>> traditional psychology and into the sphere of human studies > >> >> >> >>>>> BASED > >> >> >> >>>>> on > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >>>>> humanistic, rather than the scientific model." [p. 278-279]. > >> >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >> >>>>> I am not sure how relevant Kozulin's epilogue seems to > others > >> >> >> >>>>> 25 > >> >> >> >> years > >> >> >> >>>>> later, but I found the themes in this book very current and > >> >> >> >>>>> relevant. > >> >> >> >> In > >> >> >> >>>>> particular his analysis of Vygotsky's early humanistic > >> >> >> >>>>> writings > >> >> >> >> explored > >> >> >> >>>>> in chapter one on *The Psychology of Art* and chapter two on > >> >> >> >>>>> the > >> >> >> >> theme of > >> >> >> >>>>> Vygotsky's book on the tragedy of Hamlet. These works were > >> >> >> >>>>> written > >> >> >> >> by a > >> >> >> >>>>> young public scholar developing his identity through > engaging > >> >> >> >>>>> in > >> >> >> >>>>> the > >> >> >> >>>> deep > >> >> >> >>>>> questions of life and existence. > >> >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >> >>>>> How does this relate to Anna and Mike's postings? > >> >> >> >>>>> The discussion of corporate *money* controlling who gets to > be > >> >> >> >>>>> the > >> >> >> >>>> audience > >> >> >> >>>>> for researcher's articles [Anna Sfard's question] and the > >> >> >> >>>>> question > >> >> >> >>>>> of > >> >> >> >> the > >> >> >> >>>>> role of *public* intellectuals who are addressing humanistic > >> >> >> >>>>> questions > >> >> >> >>>> and > >> >> >> >>>>> Vygotsky's writings as a humanistic writer seem related to > the > >> >> >> >> concept of > >> >> >> >>>>> Kozulin's 3rd plane of engagement BEYOND narrow academic > >> >> >> >>>>> disciplinary > >> >> >> >>>>> discourse. > >> >> >> >>>>> Will the university as an institution remain a place for > these > >> >> >> >> humanistic > >> >> >> >>>>> studies and the type of scholarship which Alex captures in > his > >> >> >> >> biography > >> >> >> >>>> of > >> >> >> >>>>> Vygotsky's ideas, based on the humanistic model?. How > central > >> >> >> >>>>> to > >> >> >> >>>> Vygotsky's > >> >> >> >>>>> later psychological theories were his earlier reflections on > >> >> >> >>>>> art > >> >> >> >>>>> and > >> >> >> >>>>> tragedy? > >> >> >> >>>>> Larry > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 19 18:14:54 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:14:54 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to explosion of concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in American > discourse). > > mike > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 20 02:51:35 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 09:51:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Journal of Language and Literacy Education In-Reply-To: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20140320020426@mail180.us4.mcsv.net> References: <6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41bc061549e9b.20140320020426@mail180.us4.mcsv.net> Message-ID: For those interested in the Public Intellectual debate: From: JoLLE [mailto:jolle=uga.edu@mail180.us4.mcsv.net] On Behalf Of JoLLE Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:05 PM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: Journal of Language and Literacy Education What's new with JoLLE@UGA? View this email in your browser [https://gallery.mailchimp.com/6ca17b5328ae0c93191ece41b/images/image001.png] [Victor Malo-Juvera] Scholars Speak Out Visit the JoLLE Scholars Speak Out page to read Cultural Hegemony & Censorship: A Call-to-Action by assistant professor of English education (University of North Carolina Wilmington), Victor Malo-Juvera. Malo-Juvera taught English Language Arts at a Title I middle school in Miami, FL before moving to teacher education. During that time, he was a union delegate for United Teachers of Dade to the American Federation of Teachers, the National Education Association, and the Florida Education Association. Interested in Reviewing? JoLLE is seeking volunteers to serve as peer reviewers for journal submissions. If you are interested in reviewing, contact managing editor Meghan Thornton at thornton@uga.edu with your areas of interest and/or expertise. Call for Fall 2014 Submissions JoLLE is accepting submissions for our unthemed fall issue. All submissions will undergo a masked review process and should be submitted according to the guidelines found here. Deadline: August 1, 2014 Copyright ? 2014 The University of Georgia, All rights reserved. The Journal of Language & Literacy Education is a peer-reviewed, open access journal based in the the Department of Language & Literacy Education in The College of Education at The University of Georgia. Our mailing address is: The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30606 Add us to your address book unsubscribe from this list update subscription preferences [Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp] From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Thu Mar 20 09:12:54 2014 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:12:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] a paper for discussion In-Reply-To: <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> References: <5328EF10.3010501@mira.net> <674AE30C-A546-4F4D-A576-F6239685AE1C@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <25E14FD4-0978-4A45-BE14-96B6EC8722A2@mail.ubc.ca> Dear XMCA, In the spirit of creating a space for dialogue, Mike, Artin, and I thought we'd identify a paper for discussion coupled with an author willing and available to discuss it and organize this for XMCA. Donna Kotsopoulos has graciously agreed to discuss her paper in the recent issue of MCA, entitled The case of Mitchell's cube: Interactive and reflexive positioning during collaborative learning in mathematics. The paper highlights a number of relational factors that can interfere with learning in collaborative settings and identifies implications. The abstract is below and we'll make the paper available to everyone, then wait a few days to allow for reading and thinking through, then we'll be set for a discussion. As always, welcome to all who decide to and have the time to engage in this space and special thanks to Donna for being ready to jump in when we are ready!! Best - jen The Case of Mitchell's Cube: Interactive and Reflexive Positioning During Collaborative Learning in Mathematics DOI: 10.1080/10749039.2013.790905 Donna Kotsopoulosa* pages 34-52 Abstract Using positioning theory as a guiding framework, this qualitative research examined the experiences of students who appeared to be marginalized from collaborative learning in mathematics in a middle school setting. Positioning theory describes the discursive process whereby people are located in conversations as observably and subjectively coherent participants in jointly produced story lines. Interactive positioning describes when one or more persons position another individual. Reflexive positioning describes the positioning of oneself. In this research, I examined instances of (mis)alignment between interactive and reflexive positioning during collaborative learning. Factors potentially contributing to (mis)alignment are considered as well as implications for students, learning, and instruction. From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 20 19:33:27 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 19:33:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C In-Reply-To: <9C5B746B-C90F-40DF-87C7-7047F72C33DC@gmail.com> References: <532B16F3.9000201@uchicago.edu> <9C5B746B-C90F-40DF-87C7-7047F72C33DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am passing along a note from a colleague at the University of Chicago that it seems people might find useful to know about. mike Begin forwarded message: *From:* Marshall Sahlins *Date:* March 20, 2014 at 12:27:31 PM EDT *To:* "cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu" < cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu> *Subject:* *[cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C* *Reply-To:* cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu Dear Colleagues: This memorandum is meant to follow Bruce Lincoln's call to action on the matter of the Confucius Institute at the University of Chicago. I have written two rather long papers detailing my own and colleagues' concerns regarding Confucius Institutes at the U of C and many other universities and colleges the world around--not to mention hundreds of Confucius Classrooms in secondary and primary schools. An edited version of one of these papers was published in The Nation late last year under the title :China U" (http://www.thenation.com/article/176888/china-u). Another, "On the Defense of Confucius Institutes: At the University of Chicago, For Example," will soon appear on an internet blog. The latter piece includes a summary of the compromises to the University's intellectual and moral values occasioned by our participation in the global CI project--with regrettable effects on our academic standing and reputation. I append that summary below,as excerpted from the longer text. Note that "Hanban" here refers to the the Office of the Chinese Council International, which runs the Confucius Institutes world wide. The kinds and number of compromises of its own intellectual and pedagogical principles entailed by the participation of the University of Chicago in Confucius Institutes must have regrettable effects on its academic integrity as an institution, let alone its general academic standing and reputation. Here in summary are several of the most evident of such breaches of principle, as manifest in the statements or actions of responsible University of Chicago parties: --The University in 2009 committed itself to a contract with the Confucius Institutes which included clauses on the teaching of Chinese language and culture. By these provisions, Hanban was given the right to train, supply, and pay the teachers, as well as providetextbooks and teaching materials, of courses within the University's own Chinese language program. The University signed the agreement in bad faith, as it never intended to give Hanban control of the texts and class materials, and thereby of the course curriculum. This added an element of hypocrisy to the problematic provisions of the agreement with the Confucius Institutes, several of which are noted in the following. --The University violated its own statutes by not submitting this contract, inasmuch as it included teaching provisions, for approval by the representatives of the faculty in the Council of the Senate. Instead the University claimed that a vote by the China scholars of the Center for East Asian Studies constituted faculty approval. --The University repeated this violation of faculty governance by appointing a Confucius Institute in-house Committee of three professors, all of whom are China specialists, to hold hearings and make recommendations on the renewal of the CI contract. --The University falsely claimed to be "fully engaged" in the hiring process of teachers supplied by Hanban. At most it now claims a right of refusal it has never exercised. --The University ignored the fact that Hanban is guided by Chinese law in selecting the teachers it sends, including laws that criminalize forms of belief and free speech protected in the US. As a result, the University becomes complicit in discriminatory hiring practices. --The University ignored the fact that the teachers sent by Hanban to host institutions abroad are trained to avoid or divert discussions in class of subjects that are potentially politically embarrassing to the PRC . --The University admitted that " a certain amount of self-censorship" is involved in the activities of its Confucius Institute. It offered the compensation that politically controversial topics could be sponsored by other units of the University, thus sanctioning the principle that censorship is permissible in any academic unit so long as it does not apply somewhere else in the University. --The University, affirming in official statements that its CI, like all others, was "affiliated" through Hanban with the Chinese Ministry of Education, thus failed to take or give notice that the Governing Council of the Confucius Institutes, which sets the agenda of Hanban and receives its reports, is chaired by a member of the Politburo and composed by high officials of the PRC, including members of the State Council and the Ministers or Vice-Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Education, National Development, Culture, Commerce, and Finance. --The University accordingly considered it inconsequential that research projects on Chinese development proposed by Chicago faculty and students are submitted through its CI to Hanban, which makes the final decisions on approval and funding for approval and funding. --Indeed, the University also ignored--perhaps because it was considered impractical and unenforceable--that according to its own Constitution and By-laws (Chapter 6, Article 36b), Hanban reserves the right to take punitive legal action for any activity sponsored by a local Confucius Institute without its approval. These dubious aspects of Chicago's Confucius Institute notwithstanding, many affiliated faculty as well as University officials are quite content with it, citing the freedom in practice from the contractual restraints on teaching Chinese, the quality of the Hanban teachers, the conferences on family economics undertaken with our Department of Economics, and the research opportunities the CI opens in China. This local satisfaction, however, involves the University in compromises of its own academic principles on a much greater scale. I noted this in /The Nation /article, but as the editing necessarily compressed it, I spell out the point here. For it needs to be considered that the interests of Hanban and particular American universities are different in scale and character. As an instrument of the Chinese government policy, Hanban's interests are global and real-political. Its mission is to spread the influence of the Chinese state worldwide, particularly in strategically consequential regions, and above all the United States. Accordingly, with this larger objective in mind, the Beijing Head Office is ready to make case-by-case accommodations to American academic sensibilities: especially to prestigious universities--/pour encourager les autres/. The apparent loss Hanban takes in one local engagement may be an overall gain for the program world-wide. By contrast, the American universities for their part are concerned only with their own parochial welfare as academic institutions. Interested in the short-term economic, teaching, or research benefits, they are inclined to ignore or dismiss the unsavory political aspects of Confucius Institutes, which is to say the larger implication of their own participation, so long as they get a good deal. The larger implication is that their participation lends support to a project that is inimical to the academic integrity of other institutions even as it compromises their own. When the establishment the CI at the University of Chicago was announced, one distinguished professor emeritus objected in a communication to the executive body (Committee of the Council) of the faculty legislature (Council of the Senate): "I do not doubt that, regardless of its own statutes on these matters, the Confucius Institute has given broad assurances of academic integrity and freedom to the University of Chicago officials and teachers. I do not doubt it because the value of enlisting the prestige of the University of Chicago in the cause of the international success of the CI initiative would make any such concessions worthwhile, even if they were more than nominal. This, then, is the ultimate concern: that we are lending our good name to a political project that by its own by-laws infringes on our traditions of academic freedom at the same time it transgresses on our ideals of human rights, and in so doing we help spread these effects to other institutions that are less able to refuse the financial inducements that accompany them." In a few words: no matter how liberal or beneficial the terms of its own participation, the University of Chicago, by hosting a Confucius Institute, becomes engaged in a world-political struggle in a way that contradicts the intellectual and moral values on which it is founded. In the event, there is a direct relationship between the global development of Confucius Institutes and the impairment of the University of Chicago's good name. Judging from the adverse comments reported from many universities in the US and a number in other countries, the damages to the reputation of the University attendant on its establishment of a Confucius Institute are tracking the spread of the Hanban project. In the shadow of Hanban's success come expressions of disappointment, dismay, and incredulity that an institution so well regarded for its intellectual quality and academic probity should become involved in such a dubious initiative of such an illiberal regime. Marshall Sahlins 20 March 2014 -- Charles F. Grey Distinguished Service Professor of Anthropology Emeritus; University of Chicago. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 20 20:29:55 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:29:55 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C In-Reply-To: References: <532B16F3.9000201@uchicago.edu> <9C5B746B-C90F-40DF-87C7-7047F72C33DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: How quaint that the University of Chicago, which trained torturers, quartermasters, and tamed intellectuals for Chiang Kaishek, for Pinochet and then for Menachem Begin, is now concerned about lending its non-existent liberal credentials to anti-liberal regimes. How inconventient that there are also forms of free speech and association which are barred from the USA but at least nominally acceptable in China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1952 David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 21 March 2014 11:33, mike cole wrote: > I am passing along a note from a colleague at the University of Chicago > that it seems people might find useful to know about. > mike > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From:* Marshall Sahlins > *Date:* March 20, 2014 at 12:27:31 PM EDT > *To:* "cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu" < > cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu> > *Subject:* *[cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C* > *Reply-To:* cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu > > Dear Colleagues: > This memorandum is meant to follow Bruce Lincoln's call to action on the > matter of the Confucius Institute at the University of Chicago. > I have written two rather long papers detailing my own and colleagues' > concerns regarding Confucius Institutes at the U of C and many other > universities and colleges the world around--not to mention hundreds of > Confucius Classrooms in secondary and primary schools. An edited version of > one of these papers was published in The Nation late last year under the > title :China U" (http://www.thenation.com/article/176888/china-u). Another, > "On the Defense of Confucius Institutes: At the University of Chicago, For > Example," will soon appear on an internet blog. The latter piece includes a > summary of the compromises to the University's intellectual and moral > values occasioned by our participation in the global CI project--with > regrettable effects on our academic standing and reputation. I append that > summary below,as excerpted from the longer text. Note that "Hanban" here > refers to the the Office of the Chinese Council International, which runs > the Confucius Institutes world wide. > > > > The kinds and number of compromises of its own intellectual and pedagogical > principles entailed by the participation of the University of Chicago in > Confucius Institutes must have regrettable effects on its academic > integrity as an institution, let alone its general academic standing and > reputation. Here in summary are several of the most evident of such > breaches of principle, as manifest in the statements or actions of > responsible University of Chicago parties: > > --The University in 2009 committed itself to a contract with the Confucius > Institutes which included clauses on the teaching of Chinese language and > culture. By these provisions, Hanban was given the right to train, supply, > and pay the teachers, as well as providetextbooks and teaching materials, > of courses within the University's own Chinese language program. The > University signed the agreement in bad faith, as it never intended to give > Hanban control of the texts and class materials, and thereby of the course > curriculum. This added an element of hypocrisy to the problematic > provisions of the agreement with the Confucius Institutes, several of which > are noted in the following. > > --The University violated its own statutes by not submitting this contract, > inasmuch as it included teaching provisions, for approval by the > representatives of the faculty in the Council of the Senate. Instead the > University claimed that a vote by the China scholars of the Center for East > Asian Studies constituted faculty approval. > > --The University repeated this violation of faculty governance by > appointing a Confucius Institute in-house Committee of three professors, > all of whom are China specialists, to hold hearings and make > recommendations on the renewal of the CI contract. > > --The University falsely claimed to be "fully engaged" in the hiring > process of teachers supplied by Hanban. At most it now claims a right of > refusal it has never exercised. > > --The University ignored the fact that Hanban is guided by Chinese law in > selecting the teachers it sends, including laws that criminalize forms of > belief and free speech protected in the US. As a result, the University > becomes complicit in discriminatory hiring practices. > > --The University ignored the fact that the teachers sent by Hanban to host > institutions abroad are trained to avoid or divert discussions in class of > subjects that are potentially politically embarrassing to the PRC . > > --The University admitted that " a certain amount of self-censorship" is > involved in the activities of its Confucius Institute. It offered the > compensation that politically controversial topics could be sponsored by > other units of the University, thus sanctioning the principle that > censorship is permissible in any academic unit so long as it does not apply > somewhere else in the University. > > --The University, affirming in official statements that its CI, like all > others, was "affiliated" through Hanban with the Chinese Ministry of > Education, thus failed to take or give notice that the Governing Council of > the Confucius Institutes, which sets the agenda of Hanban and receives its > reports, is chaired by a member of the Politburo and composed by high > officials of the PRC, including members of the State Council and the > Ministers or Vice-Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Education, National > Development, Culture, Commerce, and Finance. > > --The University accordingly considered it inconsequential that research > projects on Chinese development proposed by Chicago faculty and students > are submitted through its CI to Hanban, which makes the final decisions on > approval and funding for approval and funding. > > --Indeed, the University also ignored--perhaps because it was considered > impractical and unenforceable--that according to its own Constitution and > By-laws (Chapter 6, Article 36b), Hanban reserves the right to take > punitive legal action for any activity sponsored by a local Confucius > Institute without its approval. > > These dubious aspects of Chicago's Confucius Institute notwithstanding, > many affiliated faculty as well as University officials are quite content > with it, citing the freedom in practice from the contractual restraints on > teaching Chinese, the quality of the Hanban teachers, the conferences on > family economics undertaken with our Department of Economics, and the > research opportunities the CI opens in China. This local satisfaction, > however, involves the University in compromises of its own academic > principles on a much greater scale. I noted this in /The Nation /article, > but as the editing necessarily compressed it, I spell out the point here. > For it needs to be considered that the interests of Hanban and particular > American universities are different in scale and character. As an > instrument of the Chinese government policy, Hanban's interests are global > and real-political. Its mission is to spread the influence of the Chinese > state worldwide, particularly in strategically consequential regions, and > above all the United States. Accordingly, with this larger objective in > mind, the Beijing Head Office is ready to make case-by-case accommodations > to American academic sensibilities: especially to prestigious > universities--/pour encourager les autres/. The apparent loss Hanban takes > in one local engagement may be an overall gain for the program world-wide. > By contrast, the American universities for their part are concerned only > with their own parochial welfare as academic institutions. Interested in > the short-term economic, teaching, or research benefits, they are inclined > to ignore or dismiss the unsavory political aspects of Confucius > Institutes, which is to say the larger implication of their own > participation, so long as they get a good deal. The larger implication is > that their participation lends support to a project that is inimical to the > academic integrity of other institutions even as it compromises their own. > > When the establishment the CI at the University of Chicago was announced, > one distinguished professor emeritus objected in a communication to the > executive body (Committee of the Council) of the faculty legislature > (Council of the Senate): > > "I do not doubt that, regardless of its own statutes on these matters, the > Confucius Institute has given broad assurances of academic integrity and > freedom to the University of Chicago officials and teachers. I do not doubt > it because the value of enlisting the prestige of the University of Chicago > in the cause of the international success of the CI initiative would make > any such concessions worthwhile, even if they were more than nominal. This, > then, is the ultimate concern: that we are lending our good name to a > political project that by its own by-laws infringes on our traditions of > academic freedom at the same time it transgresses on our ideals of human > rights, and in so doing we help spread these effects to other institutions > that are less able to refuse the financial inducements that accompany them." > > In a few words: no matter how liberal or beneficial the terms of its own > participation, the University of Chicago, by hosting a Confucius Institute, > becomes engaged in a world-political struggle in a way that contradicts the > intellectual and moral values on which it is founded. > > In the event, there is a direct relationship between the global development > of Confucius Institutes and the impairment of the University of Chicago's > good name. Judging from the adverse comments reported from many > universities in the US and a number in other countries, the damages to the > reputation of the University attendant on its establishment of a Confucius > Institute are tracking the spread of the Hanban project. In the shadow of > Hanban's success come expressions of disappointment, dismay, and > incredulity that an institution so well regarded for its intellectual > quality and academic probity should become involved in such a dubious > initiative of such an illiberal regime. > > > Marshall Sahlins > > 20 March 2014 > > > -- > Charles F. Grey Distinguished Service Professor of Anthropology Emeritus; > University of Chicago. From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 20 21:31:57 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 21:31:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query was to suggest that the discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has increased markedly in the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those parts of academia I come in contact with about "design, culture, and creativity" all of which are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very interested in the nature of imagination and creativity but I they often appear to be new code words for social and individual salvation in a lean, mean, neo-liberal world. Maybe just another of my confusions. mike On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to explosion of >> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in >> American >> discourse). >> >> mike >> >> > > From arips@optonline.net Fri Mar 21 05:01:47 2014 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:01:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> Message-ID: <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative movements for working class people-where a new focus on participatory democracy can be developed ,and working class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" To: "Andy Blunden" Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query was to suggest that > the > discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has increased markedly in > the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those parts of academia I > come in contact with about "design, culture, and creativity" all of which > are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very interested in the > nature of imagination and creativity but I they often appear to be new > code > words for social and individual salvation in a lean, mean, neo-liberal > world. > > Maybe just another of my confusions. > mike > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in >>> American >>> discourse). >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 21 05:35:24 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 23:35:24 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> Message-ID: <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, does it? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Avram Rips wrote: > Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means capital crowding > out social space and solidarity. This is evident in cities-whole > neighborhoods taken over by wealthy crafts people, and little focus on > co-operative movements for working class people-where a new focus on > participatory democracy can be developed ,and working class culture in > the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > To: "Andy Blunden" > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > >> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query was to suggest >> that the >> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has increased >> markedly in >> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those parts of >> academia I >> come in contact with about "design, culture, and creativity" all of >> which >> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very interested in the >> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often appear to be >> new code >> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, mean, neo-liberal >> world. >> >> Maybe just another of my confusions. >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to >>>> explosion of >>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in >>>> American >>>> discourse). >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Fri Mar 21 09:45:40 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:45:40 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C In-Reply-To: References: <532B16F3.9000201@uchicago.edu> <9C5B746B-C90F-40DF-87C7-7047F72C33DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: For what is worth: Issues with CI are not specific to Chicago http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/canadian-complaint-raises-questions-about-confucius-institutes/33517 http://chronicle.com/article/At-US-Colleges/124975/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Confucius_Institutes DP On Mar 21, 2014, at 12:29 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > How quaint that the University of Chicago, which trained torturers, > quartermasters, and tamed intellectuals for Chiang Kaishek, for > Pinochet and then for Menachem Begin, is now concerned about lending > its non-existent liberal credentials to anti-liberal regimes. How > inconventient that there are also forms of free speech and association > which are barred from the USA but at least nominally acceptable in > China. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1952 > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 21 March 2014 11:33, mike cole wrote: >> I am passing along a note from a colleague at the University of Chicago >> that it seems people might find useful to know about. >> mike >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From:* Marshall Sahlins >> *Date:* March 20, 2014 at 12:27:31 PM EDT >> *To:* "cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu" < >> cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu> >> *Subject:* *[cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C* >> *Reply-To:* cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu >> >> Dear Colleagues: >> This memorandum is meant to follow Bruce Lincoln's call to action on the >> matter of the Confucius Institute at the University of Chicago. >> I have written two rather long papers detailing my own and colleagues' >> concerns regarding Confucius Institutes at the U of C and many other >> universities and colleges the world around--not to mention hundreds of >> Confucius Classrooms in secondary and primary schools. An edited version of >> one of these papers was published in The Nation late last year under the >> title :China U" (http://www.thenation.com/article/176888/china-u). Another, >> "On the Defense of Confucius Institutes: At the University of Chicago, For >> Example," will soon appear on an internet blog. The latter piece includes a >> summary of the compromises to the University's intellectual and moral >> values occasioned by our participation in the global CI project--with >> regrettable effects on our academic standing and reputation. I append that >> summary below,as excerpted from the longer text. Note that "Hanban" here >> refers to the the Office of the Chinese Council International, which runs >> the Confucius Institutes world wide. >> >> >> >> The kinds and number of compromises of its own intellectual and pedagogical >> principles entailed by the participation of the University of Chicago in >> Confucius Institutes must have regrettable effects on its academic >> integrity as an institution, let alone its general academic standing and >> reputation. Here in summary are several of the most evident of such >> breaches of principle, as manifest in the statements or actions of >> responsible University of Chicago parties: >> >> --The University in 2009 committed itself to a contract with the Confucius >> Institutes which included clauses on the teaching of Chinese language and >> culture. By these provisions, Hanban was given the right to train, supply, >> and pay the teachers, as well as providetextbooks and teaching materials, >> of courses within the University's own Chinese language program. The >> University signed the agreement in bad faith, as it never intended to give >> Hanban control of the texts and class materials, and thereby of the course >> curriculum. This added an element of hypocrisy to the problematic >> provisions of the agreement with the Confucius Institutes, several of which >> are noted in the following. >> >> --The University violated its own statutes by not submitting this contract, >> inasmuch as it included teaching provisions, for approval by the >> representatives of the faculty in the Council of the Senate. Instead the >> University claimed that a vote by the China scholars of the Center for East >> Asian Studies constituted faculty approval. >> >> --The University repeated this violation of faculty governance by >> appointing a Confucius Institute in-house Committee of three professors, >> all of whom are China specialists, to hold hearings and make >> recommendations on the renewal of the CI contract. >> >> --The University falsely claimed to be "fully engaged" in the hiring >> process of teachers supplied by Hanban. At most it now claims a right of >> refusal it has never exercised. >> >> --The University ignored the fact that Hanban is guided by Chinese law in >> selecting the teachers it sends, including laws that criminalize forms of >> belief and free speech protected in the US. As a result, the University >> becomes complicit in discriminatory hiring practices. >> >> --The University ignored the fact that the teachers sent by Hanban to host >> institutions abroad are trained to avoid or divert discussions in class of >> subjects that are potentially politically embarrassing to the PRC . >> >> --The University admitted that " a certain amount of self-censorship" is >> involved in the activities of its Confucius Institute. It offered the >> compensation that politically controversial topics could be sponsored by >> other units of the University, thus sanctioning the principle that >> censorship is permissible in any academic unit so long as it does not apply >> somewhere else in the University. >> >> --The University, affirming in official statements that its CI, like all >> others, was "affiliated" through Hanban with the Chinese Ministry of >> Education, thus failed to take or give notice that the Governing Council of >> the Confucius Institutes, which sets the agenda of Hanban and receives its >> reports, is chaired by a member of the Politburo and composed by high >> officials of the PRC, including members of the State Council and the >> Ministers or Vice-Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Education, National >> Development, Culture, Commerce, and Finance. >> >> --The University accordingly considered it inconsequential that research >> projects on Chinese development proposed by Chicago faculty and students >> are submitted through its CI to Hanban, which makes the final decisions on >> approval and funding for approval and funding. >> >> --Indeed, the University also ignored--perhaps because it was considered >> impractical and unenforceable--that according to its own Constitution and >> By-laws (Chapter 6, Article 36b), Hanban reserves the right to take >> punitive legal action for any activity sponsored by a local Confucius >> Institute without its approval. >> >> These dubious aspects of Chicago's Confucius Institute notwithstanding, >> many affiliated faculty as well as University officials are quite content >> with it, citing the freedom in practice from the contractual restraints on >> teaching Chinese, the quality of the Hanban teachers, the conferences on >> family economics undertaken with our Department of Economics, and the >> research opportunities the CI opens in China. This local satisfaction, >> however, involves the University in compromises of its own academic >> principles on a much greater scale. I noted this in /The Nation /article, >> but as the editing necessarily compressed it, I spell out the point here. >> For it needs to be considered that the interests of Hanban and particular >> American universities are different in scale and character. As an >> instrument of the Chinese government policy, Hanban's interests are global >> and real-political. Its mission is to spread the influence of the Chinese >> state worldwide, particularly in strategically consequential regions, and >> above all the United States. Accordingly, with this larger objective in >> mind, the Beijing Head Office is ready to make case-by-case accommodations >> to American academic sensibilities: especially to prestigious >> universities--/pour encourager les autres/. The apparent loss Hanban takes >> in one local engagement may be an overall gain for the program world-wide. >> By contrast, the American universities for their part are concerned only >> with their own parochial welfare as academic institutions. Interested in >> the short-term economic, teaching, or research benefits, they are inclined >> to ignore or dismiss the unsavory political aspects of Confucius >> Institutes, which is to say the larger implication of their own >> participation, so long as they get a good deal. The larger implication is >> that their participation lends support to a project that is inimical to the >> academic integrity of other institutions even as it compromises their own. >> >> When the establishment the CI at the University of Chicago was announced, >> one distinguished professor emeritus objected in a communication to the >> executive body (Committee of the Council) of the faculty legislature >> (Council of the Senate): >> >> "I do not doubt that, regardless of its own statutes on these matters, the >> Confucius Institute has given broad assurances of academic integrity and >> freedom to the University of Chicago officials and teachers. I do not doubt >> it because the value of enlisting the prestige of the University of Chicago >> in the cause of the international success of the CI initiative would make >> any such concessions worthwhile, even if they were more than nominal. This, >> then, is the ultimate concern: that we are lending our good name to a >> political project that by its own by-laws infringes on our traditions of >> academic freedom at the same time it transgresses on our ideals of human >> rights, and in so doing we help spread these effects to other institutions >> that are less able to refuse the financial inducements that accompany them." >> >> In a few words: no matter how liberal or beneficial the terms of its own >> participation, the University of Chicago, by hosting a Confucius Institute, >> becomes engaged in a world-political struggle in a way that contradicts the >> intellectual and moral values on which it is founded. >> >> In the event, there is a direct relationship between the global development >> of Confucius Institutes and the impairment of the University of Chicago's >> good name. Judging from the adverse comments reported from many >> universities in the US and a number in other countries, the damages to the >> reputation of the University attendant on its establishment of a Confucius >> Institute are tracking the spread of the Hanban project. In the shadow of >> Hanban's success come expressions of disappointment, dismay, and >> incredulity that an institution so well regarded for its intellectual >> quality and academic probity should become involved in such a dubious >> initiative of such an illiberal regime. >> >> >> Marshall Sahlins >> >> 20 March 2014 >> >> >> -- >> Charles F. Grey Distinguished Service Professor of Anthropology Emeritus; >> University of Chicago. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Mar 21 11:03:23 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 11:03:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Historical Epochs Message-ID: David, I am following up on your reflections on Vygotsky's Hamlet. He wrote this in 1916 at the age of 20. Alex Kozulin, in chapter two [The Psychology of Tragedy] of his book [Vygotsky's Psychology] adds an extended note speculating on the deeper affinity between the cultural positions of Vygotsky and Pasternak. I found this speculative analysis fascinating because Kozulin also pointed out that Pasternak studied philosophy in Marburg in the 1920's. Therefore, the assumed affinity may have far reaching implications. Kozulin suggests if one looks at the novel *Zhivago*THROUGH THE LENS *of Vygotsky's *Hamlet* AS A MYTH, as a tragedy with A WILL OF ITS OWN, then the tragedy of the characters of Zhivago are a projection [ghost?] of the SPIRIT OF THE TRAGEDY ITSELF. Kozulin goes on in more detail [pages 69, 70, 71] for a single extended note. This way of speculating goes BEYOND the personal and psychological and speaks to an *epoch* at the turn of the century. Kozulin clearly is of the opinion that Vygotsky in 1916 was identifying AS a humanistic intellectual. Were he events that followed *germinated* at this historical point in time?? From tvmathdude@aol.com Fri Mar 21 12:24:05 2014 From: tvmathdude@aol.com (Tvmathdude) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> Message-ID: <8D113524235EBD2-1A28-42E33@webmail-d206.sysops.aol.com> Look to Florida legislature for the effort to increase the inequity. 1) A bill, already passed and signed by the governor that allows students to bypass college prep classes at state colleges, even when they lack the skills to pass college level classes. Students can now fail their way out of financial aide, thus reducing the numbers of poor and middle classes children obtaining college degrees. 2) A bill currently in legislature to prohibit state colleges from offering 4-year degrees. Since state colleges charge less than universities, it will again make it financially more difficult for lower and middle class students to obtain a college education. 3) A bill currently in the legislature to siphon more funds away from public education to charter schools who can choose not to enroll students. The movement to further separate the "classes' is real. Roger -----Original Message----- From: Andy Blunden To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Sent: Fri, Mar 21, 2014 8:36 am Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, does it? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Avram Rips wrote: > Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means capital crowding > out social space and solidarity. This is evident in cities-whole > neighborhoods taken over by wealthy crafts people, and little focus on > co-operative movements for working class people-where a new focus on > participatory democracy can be developed ,and working class culture in > the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > To: "Andy Blunden" > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > >> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query was to suggest >> that the >> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has increased >> markedly in >> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those parts of >> academia I >> come in contact with about "design, culture, and creativity" all of >> which >> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very interested in the >> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often appear to be >> new code >> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, mean, neo-liberal >> world. >> >> Maybe just another of my confusions. >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to >>>> explosion of >>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in >>>> American >>>> discourse). >>>> >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From arips@optonline.net Fri Mar 21 13:28:07 2014 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 16:28:07 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> Message-ID: The problem is the connection between people alienated from their labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas and taking over factories in Argentina. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by > neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social > entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good to hear that > the 1/99 protests have generated talk about inequality, but that in itself > does not create a solution, does it? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Avram Rips wrote: >> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means capital crowding out >> social space and solidarity. This is evident in cities-whole >> neighborhoods taken over by wealthy crafts people, and little focus on >> co-operative movements for working class people-where a new focus on >> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working class culture in >> the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >> To: "Andy Blunden" >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >> >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query was to suggest that >>> the >>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has increased markedly >>> in >>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those parts of academia >>> I >>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and creativity" all of >>> which >>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very interested in the >>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often appear to be new >>> code >>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, mean, neo-liberal >>> world. >>> >>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to explosion >>>>> of >>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in >>>>> American >>>>> discourse). >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Mar 21 13:50:28 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 13:50:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> Message-ID: So my noticing of the fascination and promotion od "culture and creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more than a symptom of failing eyesight? Mike On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips wrote: > The problem is the connection between people alienated from their labor, > or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that can happen in a > small scale , and spread out to new modes of production away from the > destruction of capital-such as chiapas and taking over factories in > Argentina. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > > Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by >> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social >> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good to hear that >> the 1/99 protests have generated talk about inequality, but that in itself >> does not create a solution, does it? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Avram Rips wrote: >> >>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means capital crowding out >>> social space and solidarity. This is evident in cities-whole neighborhoods >>> taken over by wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on participatory >>> democracy can be developed ,and working class culture in the Gramscian >>> sense. take care! Avram >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>> >>> >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query was to suggest that >>>> the >>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has increased markedly >>>> in >>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those parts of >>>> academia I >>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and creativity" all of >>>> which >>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very interested in the >>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often appear to be new >>>> code >>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, mean, neo-liberal >>>> world. >>>> >>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment below ... >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is non-accidentally rated to explosion >>>>>> of >>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea has become ubiquitous in >>>>>> American >>>>>> discourse). >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Mar 21 14:13:30 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 06:13:30 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C In-Reply-To: References: <532B16F3.9000201@uchicago.edu> <9C5B746B-C90F-40DF-87C7-7047F72C33DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: David: Thanks for the links; they are indeed very revealing. The first is about a member of the sinister suicide cult "Falungong" who claims that she was discriminated against for belonging to a sinister suicide cult which, once an integral part of the Chinese Communist Party and especially the Chinese military, is now carrying out self-immolations inside China. The second one, which I couldn't read in its entirety, gave the distinct impression that there were very few documented instances of discrimination connected with the CIs, certainly no more than were connected with the British Council, the Alliance Francaise, or the Goethe Institutes (let alone the Pushkin Institutes). This was reinforced by the third wikipedia article. So why is it OK for the British Council to promote British interests but wrong for the CI to promote the interests of the Chinese state? Here is my theory. Marshall Sahlins is a highly respected anthropologist; I remember the excitement with which I read his work when I was an undergraduate at the University of Chicago. UC is also the base of Richard Shweder, who is to this day one of the most articulate spokespersons for the survival of minority cultures. And a lot of the animosity against the CI's is being whipped up, not just by sinister suicide cults like Falungong but also by the Tibetan and Uighur separatists. Tibetan and Uighur separatists have had a hard time in exile (and as a result both are now resorting to self-immolation and to terroristic attacks domestically). They first wanted to promote their agendas as matters of self-determination. But this is too destabilizing an agenda to promote in the West, so even the Dalai Lama has given it up. Much better to promote the separatist agenda as a matter of cultural preservation, especially with Western anthropologists. There are two problems with this which I think that Sahlins would realize if Tibet or Xinjiang were his actual field of expertise (see, for example, the work of Melvyn Goldstein, for contrast). The first is that the West is by no means a guarantor of premodern culture; historically, the record of the Chinese has been far, far better. The second is that the separatists on the ground in Xinjiang and Tibet (and even abroad in Dharamsala and in Chicago) often frame the struggle for the preservation of a culture as one for ethnic cleansing; that is, the areas they come from must be cleansed of Chinese speaking population. It is quite understandable why a Confucius Institute would not want to promote THAT kind of point of view; the wonder is that anyone in the West would even listen to it. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 22 March 2014 01:45, David Preiss wrote: > For what is worth: > > Issues with CI are not specific to Chicago > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/canadian-complaint-raises-questions-about-confucius-institutes/33517 > > http://chronicle.com/article/At-US-Colleges/124975/ > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Confucius_Institutes > > DP > > > On Mar 21, 2014, at 12:29 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> How quaint that the University of Chicago, which trained torturers, >> quartermasters, and tamed intellectuals for Chiang Kaishek, for >> Pinochet and then for Menachem Begin, is now concerned about lending >> its non-existent liberal credentials to anti-liberal regimes. How >> inconventient that there are also forms of free speech and association >> which are barred from the USA but at least nominally acceptable in >> China. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1952 >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> On 21 March 2014 11:33, mike cole wrote: >>> I am passing along a note from a colleague at the University of Chicago >>> that it seems people might find useful to know about. >>> mike >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From:* Marshall Sahlins >>> *Date:* March 20, 2014 at 12:27:31 PM EDT >>> *To:* "cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu" < >>> cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu> >>> *Subject:* *[cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C* >>> *Reply-To:* cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu >>> >>> Dear Colleagues: >>> This memorandum is meant to follow Bruce Lincoln's call to action on the >>> matter of the Confucius Institute at the University of Chicago. >>> I have written two rather long papers detailing my own and colleagues' >>> concerns regarding Confucius Institutes at the U of C and many other >>> universities and colleges the world around--not to mention hundreds of >>> Confucius Classrooms in secondary and primary schools. An edited version of >>> one of these papers was published in The Nation late last year under the >>> title :China U" (http://www.thenation.com/article/176888/china-u). Another, >>> "On the Defense of Confucius Institutes: At the University of Chicago, For >>> Example," will soon appear on an internet blog. The latter piece includes a >>> summary of the compromises to the University's intellectual and moral >>> values occasioned by our participation in the global CI project--with >>> regrettable effects on our academic standing and reputation. I append that >>> summary below,as excerpted from the longer text. Note that "Hanban" here >>> refers to the the Office of the Chinese Council International, which runs >>> the Confucius Institutes world wide. >>> >>> >>> >>> The kinds and number of compromises of its own intellectual and pedagogical >>> principles entailed by the participation of the University of Chicago in >>> Confucius Institutes must have regrettable effects on its academic >>> integrity as an institution, let alone its general academic standing and >>> reputation. Here in summary are several of the most evident of such >>> breaches of principle, as manifest in the statements or actions of >>> responsible University of Chicago parties: >>> >>> --The University in 2009 committed itself to a contract with the Confucius >>> Institutes which included clauses on the teaching of Chinese language and >>> culture. By these provisions, Hanban was given the right to train, supply, >>> and pay the teachers, as well as providetextbooks and teaching materials, >>> of courses within the University's own Chinese language program. The >>> University signed the agreement in bad faith, as it never intended to give >>> Hanban control of the texts and class materials, and thereby of the course >>> curriculum. This added an element of hypocrisy to the problematic >>> provisions of the agreement with the Confucius Institutes, several of which >>> are noted in the following. >>> >>> --The University violated its own statutes by not submitting this contract, >>> inasmuch as it included teaching provisions, for approval by the >>> representatives of the faculty in the Council of the Senate. Instead the >>> University claimed that a vote by the China scholars of the Center for East >>> Asian Studies constituted faculty approval. >>> >>> --The University repeated this violation of faculty governance by >>> appointing a Confucius Institute in-house Committee of three professors, >>> all of whom are China specialists, to hold hearings and make >>> recommendations on the renewal of the CI contract. >>> >>> --The University falsely claimed to be "fully engaged" in the hiring >>> process of teachers supplied by Hanban. At most it now claims a right of >>> refusal it has never exercised. >>> >>> --The University ignored the fact that Hanban is guided by Chinese law in >>> selecting the teachers it sends, including laws that criminalize forms of >>> belief and free speech protected in the US. As a result, the University >>> becomes complicit in discriminatory hiring practices. >>> >>> --The University ignored the fact that the teachers sent by Hanban to host >>> institutions abroad are trained to avoid or divert discussions in class of >>> subjects that are potentially politically embarrassing to the PRC . >>> >>> --The University admitted that " a certain amount of self-censorship" is >>> involved in the activities of its Confucius Institute. It offered the >>> compensation that politically controversial topics could be sponsored by >>> other units of the University, thus sanctioning the principle that >>> censorship is permissible in any academic unit so long as it does not apply >>> somewhere else in the University. >>> >>> --The University, affirming in official statements that its CI, like all >>> others, was "affiliated" through Hanban with the Chinese Ministry of >>> Education, thus failed to take or give notice that the Governing Council of >>> the Confucius Institutes, which sets the agenda of Hanban and receives its >>> reports, is chaired by a member of the Politburo and composed by high >>> officials of the PRC, including members of the State Council and the >>> Ministers or Vice-Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Education, National >>> Development, Culture, Commerce, and Finance. >>> >>> --The University accordingly considered it inconsequential that research >>> projects on Chinese development proposed by Chicago faculty and students >>> are submitted through its CI to Hanban, which makes the final decisions on >>> approval and funding for approval and funding. >>> >>> --Indeed, the University also ignored--perhaps because it was considered >>> impractical and unenforceable--that according to its own Constitution and >>> By-laws (Chapter 6, Article 36b), Hanban reserves the right to take >>> punitive legal action for any activity sponsored by a local Confucius >>> Institute without its approval. >>> >>> These dubious aspects of Chicago's Confucius Institute notwithstanding, >>> many affiliated faculty as well as University officials are quite content >>> with it, citing the freedom in practice from the contractual restraints on >>> teaching Chinese, the quality of the Hanban teachers, the conferences on >>> family economics undertaken with our Department of Economics, and the >>> research opportunities the CI opens in China. This local satisfaction, >>> however, involves the University in compromises of its own academic >>> principles on a much greater scale. I noted this in /The Nation /article, >>> but as the editing necessarily compressed it, I spell out the point here. >>> For it needs to be considered that the interests of Hanban and particular >>> American universities are different in scale and character. As an >>> instrument of the Chinese government policy, Hanban's interests are global >>> and real-political. Its mission is to spread the influence of the Chinese >>> state worldwide, particularly in strategically consequential regions, and >>> above all the United States. Accordingly, with this larger objective in >>> mind, the Beijing Head Office is ready to make case-by-case accommodations >>> to American academic sensibilities: especially to prestigious >>> universities--/pour encourager les autres/. The apparent loss Hanban takes >>> in one local engagement may be an overall gain for the program world-wide. >>> By contrast, the American universities for their part are concerned only >>> with their own parochial welfare as academic institutions. Interested in >>> the short-term economic, teaching, or research benefits, they are inclined >>> to ignore or dismiss the unsavory political aspects of Confucius >>> Institutes, which is to say the larger implication of their own >>> participation, so long as they get a good deal. The larger implication is >>> that their participation lends support to a project that is inimical to the >>> academic integrity of other institutions even as it compromises their own. >>> >>> When the establishment the CI at the University of Chicago was announced, >>> one distinguished professor emeritus objected in a communication to the >>> executive body (Committee of the Council) of the faculty legislature >>> (Council of the Senate): >>> >>> "I do not doubt that, regardless of its own statutes on these matters, the >>> Confucius Institute has given broad assurances of academic integrity and >>> freedom to the University of Chicago officials and teachers. I do not doubt >>> it because the value of enlisting the prestige of the University of Chicago >>> in the cause of the international success of the CI initiative would make >>> any such concessions worthwhile, even if they were more than nominal. This, >>> then, is the ultimate concern: that we are lending our good name to a >>> political project that by its own by-laws infringes on our traditions of >>> academic freedom at the same time it transgresses on our ideals of human >>> rights, and in so doing we help spread these effects to other institutions >>> that are less able to refuse the financial inducements that accompany them." >>> >>> In a few words: no matter how liberal or beneficial the terms of its own >>> participation, the University of Chicago, by hosting a Confucius Institute, >>> becomes engaged in a world-political struggle in a way that contradicts the >>> intellectual and moral values on which it is founded. >>> >>> In the event, there is a direct relationship between the global development >>> of Confucius Institutes and the impairment of the University of Chicago's >>> good name. Judging from the adverse comments reported from many >>> universities in the US and a number in other countries, the damages to the >>> reputation of the University attendant on its establishment of a Confucius >>> Institute are tracking the spread of the Hanban project. In the shadow of >>> Hanban's success come expressions of disappointment, dismay, and >>> incredulity that an institution so well regarded for its intellectual >>> quality and academic probity should become involved in such a dubious >>> initiative of such an illiberal regime. >>> >>> >>> Marshall Sahlins >>> >>> 20 March 2014 >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Charles F. Grey Distinguished Service Professor of Anthropology Emeritus; >>> University of Chicago. > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Mar 21 14:39:12 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 06:39:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Historical Epochs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Larry: We know that Vygotsky read and was highly impressed by Pasternak. But we also know that he had a much more direct link to Marburg, namely Cassirer, who he read assiduously and cites repeatedly (e.g. in his work on imagination and creativity, just for example). He also had a link to Freiburg: Gustav Spet, who probably taught him as an undergraduate and who, as Martin says, certainly influenced him (though "influencing" Vygotsky often involves propelling him in an opposite direction!). We know the conclusion of these influences; Vygotsky is a materialist. The version of Hamlet that we read in Psychology of Art has been rewritten several times in the eight years since it was first he first wrote it at age 16, and that accounts for the many discrepancies between various parts of it, as well as the discrepancies between it and the early drafts that have come down to us. I think that there are (at least) three conclusions that Vygotsky draws from Hamlet which relate to his later psychological work, but they are all materialistic ones, and do not really read the tragedy as suprahistorical myth. The first is that Hamlet is the only character without any character. That is because personality does not feel like personality when you are inside it. But if Hamlet is a tragedy told from inside Hamlet, then it cannot be suprahistorical or mythical (or even tragic). The second is the theatrical nature of the mind, with its foreplane and its rear plane and its middle plane. This is well captured in the contrast between the soliloquies and the dialogue of the play, and I think this played a role in Vygotsky's later work on inner speech, as well as in the precise way he formulates the genetic law in Chapter Five of HDHMF (as an experimental drama between persons and only then one within them). But if Hamlet is suprahistorical and mythical, this cannot be a concrete model of an actual mind. The third is the emergence of free will from "fate" and "destiny", that is, from something that is not free will. In Chapter Two of HDHMF, Vygotsky talks about how this happens through 'vestigial functions" or "rudimentary functions" such as Solitaire, counting rhymes, or rock paper scissors, things which had oracular authority in ancient times but which are now only things to think with. We recognize them as the playthings of men, and we do not believe that men are their playthings any more. So I think that Vygotsky's view of tragedy is, in the end, not all suprahistorical or mythical; it is human rather than humanistic. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 22 March 2014 03:03, Larry Purss wrote: > David, > I am following up on your reflections on Vygotsky's Hamlet. He wrote this > in 1916 at the age of 20. Alex Kozulin, in chapter two [The Psychology of > Tragedy] of his book [Vygotsky's Psychology] adds an extended note > speculating on the deeper affinity between the cultural positions of > Vygotsky and Pasternak. I found this speculative analysis fascinating > because Kozulin also pointed out that Pasternak studied philosophy in > Marburg in the 1920's. Therefore, the assumed affinity may have far > reaching implications. > Kozulin suggests if one looks at the novel *Zhivago*THROUGH THE LENS *of > Vygotsky's *Hamlet* AS A MYTH, as a tragedy with A WILL OF ITS OWN, then > the tragedy of the characters of Zhivago are a projection [ghost?] of the > SPIRIT OF THE TRAGEDY ITSELF. > Kozulin goes on in more detail [pages 69, 70, 71] for a single extended > note. > This way of speculating goes BEYOND the personal and psychological and > speaks to an *epoch* at the turn of the century. Kozulin clearly is of the > opinion that Vygotsky in 1916 was identifying AS a humanistic intellectual. > Were he events that followed *germinated* at this historical point in time?? From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Fri Mar 21 15:38:38 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 19:38:38 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C In-Reply-To: References: <532B16F3.9000201@uchicago.edu> <9C5B746B-C90F-40DF-87C7-7047F72C33DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, David, for your thoughts. It would be improper for me to talk about Asian politics as I am not well informed and not familiar with the local challenges people face in the many different realities there. What I can say, from the point of view of a Latin American scholar trained in the USA, is that what makes Confucius Institutes special and subject to debate is that they are embedded WITHIN the universities. So, they stand as university centers instead of state sponsored organizations (there is one in my university and I thought it was a purely academic initiative). Other centers such as the British Council are not embedded within universities and because of it they don't call the attention of academics (but for getting funds) and it is not expected that they adhere to the priniciples of universities, questionable or not. If Confucius Institutes were placed as cultural exchange centers they will not be a matter of scrutiny for the "chronicle of higher education" and other alike outlets. They would be just like any other British Council. As for me, I still think that the distinction between organisations created to promote state related cultural exchanges and centers placed within a university to advance research is a relevant one. Of course, we can disagree and find many nuances to this distinction. I don't think that universities are necessarily perfect places and in most cases they under-perform according to their own standards of free speech and democracy, specially those that work as global corporations. And yet, the idea behind what a university stand for is a relevant one. Have a nice weekend, David On Mar 21, 2014, at 6:13 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > David: > > Thanks for the links; they are indeed very revealing. The first is > about a member of the sinister suicide cult "Falungong" who claims > that she was discriminated against for belonging to a sinister suicide > cult which, once an integral part of the Chinese Communist Party and > especially the Chinese military, is now carrying out self-immolations > inside China. > > The second one, which I couldn't read in its entirety, gave the > distinct impression that there were very few documented instances of > discrimination connected with the CIs, certainly no more than were > connected with the British Council, the Alliance Francaise, or the > Goethe Institutes (let alone the Pushkin Institutes). This was > reinforced by the third wikipedia article. > > So why is it OK for the British Council to promote British interests > but wrong for the CI to promote the interests of the Chinese state? > Here is my theory. Marshall Sahlins is a highly respected > anthropologist; I remember the excitement with which I read his work > when I was an undergraduate at the University of Chicago. UC is also > the base of Richard Shweder, who is to this day one of the most > articulate spokespersons for the survival of minority cultures. And a > lot of the animosity against the CI's is being whipped up, not just by > sinister suicide cults like Falungong but also by the Tibetan and > Uighur separatists. > > Tibetan and Uighur separatists have had a hard time in exile (and as a > result both are now resorting to self-immolation and to terroristic > attacks domestically). They first wanted to promote their agendas as > matters of self-determination. But this is too destabilizing an agenda > to promote in the West, so even the Dalai Lama has given it up. Much > better to promote the separatist agenda as a matter of cultural > preservation, especially with Western anthropologists. > > There are two problems with this which I think that Sahlins would > realize if Tibet or Xinjiang were his actual field of expertise (see, > for example, the work of Melvyn Goldstein, for contrast). The first is > that the West is by no means a guarantor of premodern culture; > historically, the record of the Chinese has been far, far better. The > second is that the separatists on the ground in Xinjiang and Tibet > (and even abroad in Dharamsala and in Chicago) often frame the > struggle for the preservation of a culture as one for ethnic > cleansing; that is, the areas they come from must be cleansed of > Chinese speaking population. It is quite understandable why a > Confucius Institute would not want to promote THAT kind of point of > view; the wonder is that anyone in the West would even listen to it. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 22 March 2014 01:45, David Preiss wrote: >> For what is worth: >> >> Issues with CI are not specific to Chicago >> >> http://chronicle.com/blogs/global/canadian-complaint-raises-questions-about-confucius-institutes/33517 >> >> http://chronicle.com/article/At-US-Colleges/124975/ >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Confucius_Institutes >> >> DP >> >> >> On Mar 21, 2014, at 12:29 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> How quaint that the University of Chicago, which trained torturers, >>> quartermasters, and tamed intellectuals for Chiang Kaishek, for >>> Pinochet and then for Menachem Begin, is now concerned about lending >>> its non-existent liberal credentials to anti-liberal regimes. How >>> inconventient that there are also forms of free speech and association >>> which are barred from the USA but at least nominally acceptable in >>> China. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1952 >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> On 21 March 2014 11:33, mike cole wrote: >>>> I am passing along a note from a colleague at the University of Chicago >>>> that it seems people might find useful to know about. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>> *From:* Marshall Sahlins >>>> *Date:* March 20, 2014 at 12:27:31 PM EDT >>>> *To:* "cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu" < >>>> cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu> >>>> *Subject:* *[cores-ucfaculty] Memo on Confucius Institutes at the U of C* >>>> *Reply-To:* cores-ucfaculty@lists.uchicago.edu >>>> >>>> Dear Colleagues: >>>> This memorandum is meant to follow Bruce Lincoln's call to action on the >>>> matter of the Confucius Institute at the University of Chicago. >>>> I have written two rather long papers detailing my own and colleagues' >>>> concerns regarding Confucius Institutes at the U of C and many other >>>> universities and colleges the world around--not to mention hundreds of >>>> Confucius Classrooms in secondary and primary schools. An edited version of >>>> one of these papers was published in The Nation late last year under the >>>> title :China U" (http://www.thenation.com/article/176888/china-u). Another, >>>> "On the Defense of Confucius Institutes: At the University of Chicago, For >>>> Example," will soon appear on an internet blog. The latter piece includes a >>>> summary of the compromises to the University's intellectual and moral >>>> values occasioned by our participation in the global CI project--with >>>> regrettable effects on our academic standing and reputation. I append that >>>> summary below,as excerpted from the longer text. Note that "Hanban" here >>>> refers to the the Office of the Chinese Council International, which runs >>>> the Confucius Institutes world wide. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The kinds and number of compromises of its own intellectual and pedagogical >>>> principles entailed by the participation of the University of Chicago in >>>> Confucius Institutes must have regrettable effects on its academic >>>> integrity as an institution, let alone its general academic standing and >>>> reputation. Here in summary are several of the most evident of such >>>> breaches of principle, as manifest in the statements or actions of >>>> responsible University of Chicago parties: >>>> >>>> --The University in 2009 committed itself to a contract with the Confucius >>>> Institutes which included clauses on the teaching of Chinese language and >>>> culture. By these provisions, Hanban was given the right to train, supply, >>>> and pay the teachers, as well as providetextbooks and teaching materials, >>>> of courses within the University's own Chinese language program. The >>>> University signed the agreement in bad faith, as it never intended to give >>>> Hanban control of the texts and class materials, and thereby of the course >>>> curriculum. This added an element of hypocrisy to the problematic >>>> provisions of the agreement with the Confucius Institutes, several of which >>>> are noted in the following. >>>> >>>> --The University violated its own statutes by not submitting this contract, >>>> inasmuch as it included teaching provisions, for approval by the >>>> representatives of the faculty in the Council of the Senate. Instead the >>>> University claimed that a vote by the China scholars of the Center for East >>>> Asian Studies constituted faculty approval. >>>> >>>> --The University repeated this violation of faculty governance by >>>> appointing a Confucius Institute in-house Committee of three professors, >>>> all of whom are China specialists, to hold hearings and make >>>> recommendations on the renewal of the CI contract. >>>> >>>> --The University falsely claimed to be "fully engaged" in the hiring >>>> process of teachers supplied by Hanban. At most it now claims a right of >>>> refusal it has never exercised. >>>> >>>> --The University ignored the fact that Hanban is guided by Chinese law in >>>> selecting the teachers it sends, including laws that criminalize forms of >>>> belief and free speech protected in the US. As a result, the University >>>> becomes complicit in discriminatory hiring practices. >>>> >>>> --The University ignored the fact that the teachers sent by Hanban to host >>>> institutions abroad are trained to avoid or divert discussions in class of >>>> subjects that are potentially politically embarrassing to the PRC . >>>> >>>> --The University admitted that " a certain amount of self-censorship" is >>>> involved in the activities of its Confucius Institute. It offered the >>>> compensation that politically controversial topics could be sponsored by >>>> other units of the University, thus sanctioning the principle that >>>> censorship is permissible in any academic unit so long as it does not apply >>>> somewhere else in the University. >>>> >>>> --The University, affirming in official statements that its CI, like all >>>> others, was "affiliated" through Hanban with the Chinese Ministry of >>>> Education, thus failed to take or give notice that the Governing Council of >>>> the Confucius Institutes, which sets the agenda of Hanban and receives its >>>> reports, is chaired by a member of the Politburo and composed by high >>>> officials of the PRC, including members of the State Council and the >>>> Ministers or Vice-Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Education, National >>>> Development, Culture, Commerce, and Finance. >>>> >>>> --The University accordingly considered it inconsequential that research >>>> projects on Chinese development proposed by Chicago faculty and students >>>> are submitted through its CI to Hanban, which makes the final decisions on >>>> approval and funding for approval and funding. >>>> >>>> --Indeed, the University also ignored--perhaps because it was considered >>>> impractical and unenforceable--that according to its own Constitution and >>>> By-laws (Chapter 6, Article 36b), Hanban reserves the right to take >>>> punitive legal action for any activity sponsored by a local Confucius >>>> Institute without its approval. >>>> >>>> These dubious aspects of Chicago's Confucius Institute notwithstanding, >>>> many affiliated faculty as well as University officials are quite content >>>> with it, citing the freedom in practice from the contractual restraints on >>>> teaching Chinese, the quality of the Hanban teachers, the conferences on >>>> family economics undertaken with our Department of Economics, and the >>>> research opportunities the CI opens in China. This local satisfaction, >>>> however, involves the University in compromises of its own academic >>>> principles on a much greater scale. I noted this in /The Nation /article, >>>> but as the editing necessarily compressed it, I spell out the point here. >>>> For it needs to be considered that the interests of Hanban and particular >>>> American universities are different in scale and character. As an >>>> instrument of the Chinese government policy, Hanban's interests are global >>>> and real-political. Its mission is to spread the influence of the Chinese >>>> state worldwide, particularly in strategically consequential regions, and >>>> above all the United States. Accordingly, with this larger objective in >>>> mind, the Beijing Head Office is ready to make case-by-case accommodations >>>> to American academic sensibilities: especially to prestigious >>>> universities--/pour encourager les autres/. The apparent loss Hanban takes >>>> in one local engagement may be an overall gain for the program world-wide. >>>> By contrast, the American universities for their part are concerned only >>>> with their own parochial welfare as academic institutions. Interested in >>>> the short-term economic, teaching, or research benefits, they are inclined >>>> to ignore or dismiss the unsavory political aspects of Confucius >>>> Institutes, which is to say the larger implication of their own >>>> participation, so long as they get a good deal. The larger implication is >>>> that their participation lends support to a project that is inimical to the >>>> academic integrity of other institutions even as it compromises their own. >>>> >>>> When the establishment the CI at the University of Chicago was announced, >>>> one distinguished professor emeritus objected in a communication to the >>>> executive body (Committee of the Council) of the faculty legislature >>>> (Council of the Senate): >>>> >>>> "I do not doubt that, regardless of its own statutes on these matters, the >>>> Confucius Institute has given broad assurances of academic integrity and >>>> freedom to the University of Chicago officials and teachers. I do not doubt >>>> it because the value of enlisting the prestige of the University of Chicago >>>> in the cause of the international success of the CI initiative would make >>>> any such concessions worthwhile, even if they were more than nominal. This, >>>> then, is the ultimate concern: that we are lending our good name to a >>>> political project that by its own by-laws infringes on our traditions of >>>> academic freedom at the same time it transgresses on our ideals of human >>>> rights, and in so doing we help spread these effects to other institutions >>>> that are less able to refuse the financial inducements that accompany them." >>>> >>>> In a few words: no matter how liberal or beneficial the terms of its own >>>> participation, the University of Chicago, by hosting a Confucius Institute, >>>> becomes engaged in a world-political struggle in a way that contradicts the >>>> intellectual and moral values on which it is founded. >>>> >>>> In the event, there is a direct relationship between the global development >>>> of Confucius Institutes and the impairment of the University of Chicago's >>>> good name. Judging from the adverse comments reported from many >>>> universities in the US and a number in other countries, the damages to the >>>> reputation of the University attendant on its establishment of a Confucius >>>> Institute are tracking the spread of the Hanban project. In the shadow of >>>> Hanban's success come expressions of disappointment, dismay, and >>>> incredulity that an institution so well regarded for its intellectual >>>> quality and academic probity should become involved in such a dubious >>>> initiative of such an illiberal regime. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marshall Sahlins >>>> >>>> 20 March 2014 >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Charles F. Grey Distinguished Service Professor of Anthropology Emeritus; >>>> University of Chicago. >> >> From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 21 19:50:07 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:50:07 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> Message-ID: <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban renewal, except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which get done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, philosophical and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who are designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the "creative industries." Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well without a certain percentage of the world's population who find an "alternative". Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > > So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and > creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more > than a symptom of failing eyesight? > Mike > On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips > wrote: > > The problem is the connection between people alienated from their > labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that > can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of > production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas > and taking over factories in Argentina. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > > Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by > neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social > entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good > to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about > inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, > does it? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Avram Rips wrote: > > Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means > capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is > evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by > wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative > movements for working class people-where a new focus on > participatory democracy can be developed ,and working > class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > > To: "Andy Blunden" > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > > Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query > was to suggest that the > discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has > increased markedly in > the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those > parts of academia I > come in contact with about "design, culture, and > creativity" all of which > are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very > interested in the > nature of imagination and creativity but I they often > appear to be new code > words for social and individual salvation in a lean, > mean, neo-liberal > world. > > Maybe just another of my confusions. > mike > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Mike, could you clarify a little your comment > below ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > ... My fear that is appearance is > non-accidentally rated to explosion of > concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea > has become ubiquitous in > American > discourse). > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > From bella.kotik@gmail.com Sat Mar 22 03:17:51 2014 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:17:51 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Invitation - III Estoril Vigotsky Conference - EVC 2014 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: 2014-03-22 11:40 GMT+02:00 Subject: Invitation - III Estoril Vigotsky Conference - EVC 2014 To: A Liga Vegotskiana de L?ngua Portuguesa & o Instituto Quintino Aires t?m o prazer de o convidar a participar no: 3? Estoril Vigotsky Conference - Congresso Internacional de Psicologia Centro de Congressos do Estoril de 16 a 18 de Junho 2014 Avenida Amaral. 2765-192 Estoril, (Lisboa) Portugal Aceda ao site para se registar e obter mais informa??es: www.estorilvigotskyconference.com ____________________________________________________________________________ The Vegotskyan League of Portuguese Language & the Institute Quintino Aires are pleased to invite you to participate in : 3rd Estoril Vigotsky Conference - International Congress of Psychology Estoril Conference Center from June 16th to 18th, 2014 Amaral Avenue. 2765-192 Estoril, (Lisbon) Portugal Visit the site to register and get more information: www.estorilvigotskyconference.com/index.php/en -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EVC14CSC.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 77832 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140322/a87686f1/attachment.jpg From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Sat Mar 22 11:14:58 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:14:58 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Learn to Write Badly: How to Succeed in the Social Sciences:Amazon:Books Message-ID: <3915B47A-F677-4104-9501-954E21C0592D@gmail.com> www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1107676983/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?pc_redir=1395511997 This title will be of interest of many people in this list, David Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? Enviado desde mi iPhone From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Mar 22 12:26:44 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:26:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, Your comment: "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than offering "alternatives," suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or *living laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated and lived. It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which have attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago gathered together a committed group with shared ideals. In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require demonstrating other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence to express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be na?ve and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology which co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the *source*? To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a theme. He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and suggests the "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may have an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* forming to express alternative *values*? On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on > "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can > escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative > industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), > advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban renewal, > except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which get > done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big > negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People > involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with > imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, philosophical > and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to > educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who are > designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the > "creative industries." > > Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than > offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well without > a certain percentage of the world's population who find an "alternative". > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> >> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more than a >> symptom of failing eyesight? >> Mike >> >> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips > arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >> >> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their >> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >> and taking over factories in Argentina. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >> >> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by >> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social >> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >> does it? >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Avram Rips wrote: >> >> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is >> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >> >> To: "Andy Blunden" >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >> >> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >> was to suggest that the >> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >> increased markedly in >> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those >> parts of academia I >> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >> creativity" all of which >> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very >> interested in the >> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often >> appear to be new code >> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >> mean, neo-liberal >> world. >> >> Maybe just another of my confusions. >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >> wrote: >> >> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >> below ... >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> ... My fear that is appearance is >> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >> has become ubiquitous in >> American >> discourse). >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Mar 22 14:52:11 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 06:52:11 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much about. Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four or five young people rather than one older one. This means, necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of Early Childhood, p. 251): "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." (I omit Halliday's references). My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the Occupy movement. Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a model of creativity out there which is individualistic, entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, it's also anti-creativity. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > Your comment: > > "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than > offering "alternatives," > > suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the > source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. > > I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with > exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or *living > laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated and > lived. > It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which have > attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of > these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory > developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago gathered > together a committed group with shared ideals. > > In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require demonstrating > other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of > these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. > > The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* > suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence to > express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be na?ve > and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology which > co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the > *source*? > > To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a theme. > He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and suggests > the > > "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may have > an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. > > I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* forming > to express alternative *values*? > > > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on >> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can >> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), >> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban renewal, >> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which get >> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big >> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, philosophical >> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to >> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who are >> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >> "creative industries." >> >> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than >> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well without >> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an "alternative". >> >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> >>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more than a >>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>> Mike >>> >>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>> >>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their >>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>> >>> >>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by >>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social >>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>> does it? >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Avram Rips wrote: >>> >>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is >>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>> >>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>> >>> >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>> was to suggest that the >>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>> increased markedly in >>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those >>> parts of academia I >>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>> creativity" all of which >>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very >>> interested in the >>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often >>> appear to be new code >>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>> mean, neo-liberal >>> world. >>> >>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>> wrote: >>> >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>> below ... >>> ------------------------------ >>> ------------------------------------------ >>> >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>> has become ubiquitous in >>> American >>> discourse). >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Mar 22 16:49:02 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 16:49:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: Could there be a common pattern here? Nice quote from Halliday and thanks for the references, David. mike On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic > scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently > rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. > > Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came > to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes > (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very > unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence > Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging > that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new > mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much > about. > > Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's > clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests > of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves > reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans > desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests > of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must > put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation > schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? > > No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new > "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a > pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In > South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly > pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four > or five young people rather than one older one. This means, > necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring > younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, > younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little > handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. > > Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a > non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to > inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people > have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a > country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very > collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. > > Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of > Early Childhood, p. 251): > > "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last > quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in > educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological > construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, > romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision > of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of > kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous > being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the > latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view > that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of > education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great > Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United > States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process > and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been > supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by > cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition > of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." > (I omit Halliday's references). > > My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on > Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in > evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! > At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I > had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own > Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, > which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the > compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is > true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on > Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the > Occupy movement. > > Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a > model of creativity out there which is individualistic, > entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, > it's also anti-creativity. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > > On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: > > Andy, > > Your comment: > > > > "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way > > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > > penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than > > offering "alternatives," > > > > suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the > > source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. > > > > I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with > > exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or *living > > laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated > and > > lived. > > It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which > have > > attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of > > these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory > > developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago > gathered > > together a committed group with shared ideals. > > > > In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require > demonstrating > > other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of > > these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. > > > > The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* > > suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence > to > > express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be > na?ve > > and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology which > > co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the > > *source*? > > > > To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a theme. > > He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and > suggests > > the > > > > "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may > have > > an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. > > > > I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* > forming > > to express alternative *values*? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on > >> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can > >> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative > >> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), > >> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban > renewal, > >> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which > get > >> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big > >> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People > >> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with > >> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, > philosophical > >> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to > >> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who > are > >> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the > >> "creative industries." > >> > >> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way > >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > >> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather > than > >> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well > without > >> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an > "alternative". > >> > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and > >>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more > than a > >>> symptom of failing eyesight? > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their > >>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that > >>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of > >>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas > >>> and taking over factories in Argentina. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < > ablunden@mira.net> > >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by > >>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social > >>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good > >>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about > >>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, > >>> does it? > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Avram Rips wrote: > >>> > >>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means > >>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is > >>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by > >>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative > >>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on > >>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working > >>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > >>> > >>> To: "Andy Blunden" > >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> > >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >>> > >>> > >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query > >>> was to suggest that the > >>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has > >>> increased markedly in > >>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those > >>> parts of academia I > >>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and > >>> creativity" all of which > >>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very > >>> interested in the > >>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often > >>> appear to be new code > >>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, > >>> mean, neo-liberal > >>> world. > >>> > >>> Maybe just another of my confusions. > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment > >>> below ... > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> ------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> ... My fear that is appearance is > >>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of > >>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea > >>> has become ubiquitous in > >>> American > >>> discourse). > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 22 16:57:56 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 10:57:56 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: <532E2384.8050303@mira.net> Perhaps a continuation of the discourse about "the knowledge economy" and so on. In Australia we have had what is called "the clever country", meaning, never mind the total loss of manufacturing industry, we are going to survive in the world by being "clever." Various formulations of the idea that with the changing nature of the forces of production and in particular the global division of labour, deployed for the purpose of offering prospects for the working class in the imperialist countries to find some place for themsleves while capital is more intent on exploiting cheap labour elsewhere? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Could there be a common pattern here? > Nice quote from Halliday and thanks for the references, David. > mike > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > >> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >> >> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >> about. >> >> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >> >> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >> >> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >> >> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >> Early Childhood, p. 251): >> >> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >> (I omit Halliday's references). >> >> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >> Occupy movement. >> >> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >> it's also anti-creativity. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >> >> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Andy, >>> Your comment: >>> >>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way >>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than >>> offering "alternatives," >>> >>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the >>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>> >>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or *living >>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated >>> >> and >> >>> lived. >>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>> >> have >> >>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>> >> gathered >> >>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>> >>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>> >> demonstrating >> >>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of >>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>> >>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence >>> >> to >> >>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>> >> na?ve >> >>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology which >>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>> *source*? >>> >>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a theme. >>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>> >> suggests >> >>> the >>> >>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>> >> have >> >>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>> >>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>> >> forming >> >>> to express alternative *values*? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> >>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on >>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can >>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), >>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>> >> renewal, >> >>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which >>>> >> get >> >>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big >>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>> >> philosophical >> >>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to >>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who >>>> >> are >> >>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>> "creative industries." >>>> >>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>> >> than >> >>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>> >> without >> >>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>> >> "alternative". >> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>> >> than a >> >>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their >>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>> >> ablunden@mira.net> >> >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by >>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social >>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>> does it? >>>>> Andy >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is >>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>> >>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>> increased markedly in >>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those >>>>> parts of academia I >>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very >>>>> interested in the >>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often >>>>> appear to be new code >>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>> world. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>> below ... >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>> American >>>>> discourse). >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Mar 22 22:29:05 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 23:29:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: David, Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the model of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do that... Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching older workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that laborer is). Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit them - they certainly didn't expect it). -greg On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic > scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently > rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. > > Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came > to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes > (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very > unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence > Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging > that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new > mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much > about. > > Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's > clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests > of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves > reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans > desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests > of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must > put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation > schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? > > No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new > "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a > pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In > South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly > pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four > or five young people rather than one older one. This means, > necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring > younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, > younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little > handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. > > Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a > non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to > inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people > have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a > country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very > collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. > > Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of > Early Childhood, p. 251): > > "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last > quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in > educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological > construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, > romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision > of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of > kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous > being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the > latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view > that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of > education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great > Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United > States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process > and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been > supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by > cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition > of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." > (I omit Halliday's references). > > My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on > Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in > evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! > At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I > had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own > Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, > which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the > compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is > true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on > Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the > Occupy movement. > > Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a > model of creativity out there which is individualistic, > entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, > it's also anti-creativity. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > > On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: > > Andy, > > Your comment: > > > > "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way > > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > > penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than > > offering "alternatives," > > > > suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the > > source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. > > > > I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with > > exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or *living > > laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated > and > > lived. > > It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which > have > > attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of > > these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory > > developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago > gathered > > together a committed group with shared ideals. > > > > In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require > demonstrating > > other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of > > these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. > > > > The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* > > suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence > to > > express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be > na?ve > > and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology which > > co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the > > *source*? > > > > To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a theme. > > He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and > suggests > > the > > > > "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may > have > > an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. > > > > I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* > forming > > to express alternative *values*? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on > >> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can > >> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative > >> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), > >> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban > renewal, > >> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which > get > >> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big > >> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People > >> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with > >> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, > philosophical > >> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to > >> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who > are > >> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the > >> "creative industries." > >> > >> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way > >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > >> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather > than > >> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well > without > >> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an > "alternative". > >> > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and > >>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more > than a > >>> symptom of failing eyesight? > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their > >>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that > >>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of > >>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas > >>> and taking over factories in Argentina. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < > ablunden@mira.net> > >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >>> > >>> > >>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by > >>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social > >>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good > >>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about > >>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, > >>> does it? > >>> Andy > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Avram Rips wrote: > >>> > >>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means > >>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is > >>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by > >>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative > >>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on > >>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working > >>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > >>> > >>> To: "Andy Blunden" > >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> > >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >>> > >>> > >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query > >>> was to suggest that the > >>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has > >>> increased markedly in > >>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those > >>> parts of academia I > >>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and > >>> creativity" all of which > >>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very > >>> interested in the > >>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often > >>> appear to be new code > >>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, > >>> mean, neo-liberal > >>> world. > >>> > >>> Maybe just another of my confusions. > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment > >>> below ... > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> ------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> ... My fear that is appearance is > >>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of > >>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea > >>> has become ubiquitous in > >>> American > >>> discourse). > >>> > >>> mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Mar 23 00:00:40 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 16:00:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: Greg-- Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must be. Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and Medvedev). This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the creative society to the clever society of one. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: > David, > Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the model > of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's > everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do that... > > Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching older > workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., > here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in > the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that > laborer is). > > Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is > crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... > > Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit them - > they certainly didn't expect it). > -greg > > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >> >> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >> about. >> >> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >> >> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >> >> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >> >> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >> Early Childhood, p. 251): >> >> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >> (I omit Halliday's references). >> >> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >> Occupy movement. >> >> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >> it's also anti-creativity. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >> >> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >> > Andy, >> > Your comment: >> > >> > "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way >> > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >> > penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather than >> > offering "alternatives," >> > >> > suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the >> > source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >> > >> > I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >> > exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or *living >> > laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated >> and >> > lived. >> > It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >> have >> > attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >> > these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >> > developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >> gathered >> > together a committed group with shared ideals. >> > >> > In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >> demonstrating >> > other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of >> > these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >> > >> > The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >> > suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence >> to >> > express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >> na?ve >> > and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology which >> > co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >> > *source*? >> > >> > To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a theme. >> > He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >> suggests >> > the >> > >> > "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >> have >> > an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >> > >> > I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >> forming >> > to express alternative *values*? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > >> >> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus on >> >> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can >> >> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >> >> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), >> >> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >> renewal, >> >> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses which >> get >> >> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a big >> >> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >> >> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >> >> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >> philosophical >> >> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have to >> >> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who >> are >> >> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >> >> "creative industries." >> >> >> >> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way >> >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >> >> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >> than >> >> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >> without >> >> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >> "alternative". >> >> >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >> >>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >> than a >> >>> symptom of failing eyesight? >> >>> Mike >> >>> >> >>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips > >>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their >> >>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >> >>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >> >>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >> >>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >> ablunden@mira.net> >> >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by >> >>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative social >> >>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >> >>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >> >>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >> >>> does it? >> >>> Andy >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> ------------ >> >>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Avram Rips wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >> >>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is >> >>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >> >>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >> >>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >> >>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >> >>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >> >>> >> >>> To: "Andy Blunden" >> >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >>> >> >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >> >>> was to suggest that the >> >>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >> >>> increased markedly in >> >>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in those >> >>> parts of academia I >> >>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >> >>> creativity" all of which >> >>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very >> >>> interested in the >> >>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often >> >>> appear to be new code >> >>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >> >>> mean, neo-liberal >> >>> world. >> >>> >> >>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >> >>> mike >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >> >>> below ... >> >>> ------------------------------ >> >>> ------------------------------------------ >> >>> >> >>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> mike cole wrote: >> >>> >> >>> ... My fear that is appearance is >> >>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >> >>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >> >>> has become ubiquitous in >> >>> American >> >>> discourse). >> >>> >> >>> mike >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 23 01:04:31 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 02:04:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: David, Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. the one where creativity is anti-social. And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on a different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). -greg On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Greg-- > > Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an > anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you > meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, > stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at > least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so > obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice > of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot > be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage > measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium > of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think > Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must > be. > > Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin > that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not > particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight > between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits > reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant > to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as > being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many > speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what > made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now > admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least > for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and > Medvedev). > > This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to > have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had > neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the > comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a > kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a > certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be > taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. > Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the > creative society to the clever society of one. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: > > David, > > Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the model > > of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's > > everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do that... > > > > Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching > older > > workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., > > here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in > > the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that > > laborer is). > > > > Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is > > crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... > > > > Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit > them - > > they certainly didn't expect it). > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > >> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic > >> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently > >> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. > >> > >> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came > >> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes > >> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very > >> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence > >> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging > >> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new > >> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much > >> about. > >> > >> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's > >> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests > >> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves > >> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans > >> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests > >> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must > >> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation > >> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? > >> > >> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new > >> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a > >> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In > >> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly > >> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four > >> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, > >> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring > >> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, > >> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little > >> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. > >> > >> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a > >> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to > >> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people > >> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a > >> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very > >> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. > >> > >> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of > >> Early Childhood, p. 251): > >> > >> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last > >> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in > >> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological > >> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, > >> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision > >> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of > >> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous > >> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the > >> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view > >> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of > >> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great > >> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United > >> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process > >> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been > >> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by > >> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition > >> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." > >> (I omit Halliday's references). > >> > >> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on > >> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in > >> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! > >> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I > >> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own > >> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, > >> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the > >> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is > >> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on > >> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the > >> Occupy movement. > >> > >> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a > >> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, > >> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, > >> it's also anti-creativity. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > >> > >> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: > >> > Andy, > >> > Your comment: > >> > > >> > "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any > way > >> > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > >> > penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather > than > >> > offering "alternatives," > >> > > >> > suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at > the > >> > source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. > >> > > >> > I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with > >> > exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or > *living > >> > laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are > generated > >> and > >> > lived. > >> > It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which > >> have > >> > attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of > >> > these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory > >> > developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago > >> gathered > >> > together a committed group with shared ideals. > >> > > >> > In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require > >> demonstrating > >> > other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some > of > >> > these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. > >> > > >> > The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* > >> > suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into > existence > >> to > >> > express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be > >> na?ve > >> > and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology > which > >> > co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the > >> > *source*? > >> > > >> > To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a > theme. > >> > He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and > >> suggests > >> > the > >> > > >> > "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may > >> have > >> > an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. > >> > > >> > I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* > >> forming > >> > to express alternative *values*? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > > >> >> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus > on > >> >> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities > can > >> >> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative > >> >> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer > games), > >> >> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban > >> renewal, > >> >> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses > which > >> get > >> >> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a > big > >> >> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People > >> >> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with > >> >> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, > >> philosophical > >> >> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have > to > >> >> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists > who > >> are > >> >> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the > >> >> "creative industries." > >> >> > >> >> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any > way > >> >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > >> >> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather > >> than > >> >> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well > >> without > >> >> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an > >> "alternative". > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Andy > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> *Andy Blunden* > >> >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> mike cole wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and > >> >>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more > >> than a > >> >>> symptom of failing eyesight? > >> >>> Mike > >> >>> > >> >>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >> >>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from > their > >> >>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that > >> >>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of > >> >>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas > >> >>> and taking over factories in Argentina. > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < > >> ablunden@mira.net> > >> >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >> >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM > >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created > by > >> >>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative > social > >> >>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good > >> >>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about > >> >>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, > >> >>> does it? > >> >>> Andy > >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>> ------------ > >> >>> *Andy Blunden* > >> >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Avram Rips wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means > >> >>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This > is > >> >>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by > >> >>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative > >> >>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on > >> >>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working > >> >>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > >> >>> > >> >>> To: "Andy Blunden" > >> >>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >> >>> > >> >>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > >> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query > >> >>> was to suggest that the > >> >>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has > >> >>> increased markedly in > >> >>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in > those > >> >>> parts of academia I > >> >>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and > >> >>> creativity" all of which > >> >>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I > very > >> >>> interested in the > >> >>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they > often > >> >>> appear to be new code > >> >>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, > >> >>> mean, neo-liberal > >> >>> world. > >> >>> > >> >>> Maybe just another of my confusions. > >> >>> mike > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment > >> >>> below ... > >> >>> ------------------------------ > >> >>> ------------------------------------------ > >> >>> > >> >>> *Andy Blunden* > >> >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> mike cole wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> ... My fear that is appearance is > >> >>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of > >> >>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea > >> >>> has become ubiquitous in > >> >>> American > >> >>> discourse). > >> >>> > >> >>> mike > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 23 01:10:26 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:10:26 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> Message-ID: <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > David, > Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that > Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. > the one where creativity is anti-social. > > And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him > as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I > had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on a > different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a > tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but > rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot > through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > >> Greg-- >> >> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >> be. >> >> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >> Medvedev). >> >> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >> creative society to the clever society of one. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >>> David, >>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the model >>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's >>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do that... >>> >>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >>> >> older >> >>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., >>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in >>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >>> laborer is). >>> >>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >>> >>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >>> >> them - >> >>> they certainly didn't expect it). >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >>> >> wrote: >> >>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>>> >>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>>> about. >>>> >>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>>> >>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>>> >>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>>> >>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>>> >>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>>> >>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>>> Occupy movement. >>>> >>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>>> it's also anti-creativity. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>>> >>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>>> >>>>> Andy, >>>>> Your comment: >>>>> >>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>> >> way >> >>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>> >> than >> >>>>> offering "alternatives," >>>>> >>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >>>>> >> the >> >>>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>>> >>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>>> >> *living >> >>>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >>>>> >> generated >> >>>> and >>>> >>>>> lived. >>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>>> >>>> have >>>> >>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>>> >>>> gathered >>>> >>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>>> >>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>>> >>>> demonstrating >>>> >>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >>>>> >> of >> >>>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>>> >>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >>>>> >> existence >> >>>> to >>>> >>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>>> >>>> na?ve >>>> >>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>>> >> which >> >>>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>>> *source*? >>>>> >>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>>> >> theme. >> >>>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>>> >>>> suggests >>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>>> >>>> have >>>> >>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>>> >>>> forming >>>> >>>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>> >> wrote: >> >>>>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>>> >> on >> >>>>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >>>>>> >> can >> >>>>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >>>>>> >> games), >> >>>>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>>> >>>> renewal, >>>> >>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>>> >> which >> >>>> get >>>> >>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>>> >> big >> >>>>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>>> >>>> philosophical >>>> >>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>>> >> to >> >>>>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >>>>>> >> who >> >>>> are >>>> >>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>>> "creative industries." >>>>>> >>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>> >> way >> >>>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>> >>>> than >>>> >>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>>> >>>> without >>>> >>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>>> >>>> "alternative". >>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>>> >>>> than a >>>> >>>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >>>>>>> >> their >> >>>>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>>> >>>> ablunden@mira.net> >>>> >>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >>>>>>> >> by >> >>>>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>>> >> social >> >>>>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>>> does it? >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >>>>>>> >> is >> >>>>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>>> >> those >> >>>>>>> parts of academia I >>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >>>>>>> >> very >> >>>>>>> interested in the >>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >>>>>>> >> often >> >>>>>>> appear to be new code >>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>>> world. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>>> below ... >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>>> American >>>>>>> discourse). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> > > > From arips@optonline.net Sun Mar 23 06:45:30 2014 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 09:45:30 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532E2384.8050303@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E2384.8050303@mira.net> Message-ID: "clever country'. This is a version of Clinton economics and now Obama- actually bipartisan. You can do anything,invent a new self. This happens while the de-industrialization process happens ,and more capital flows out of the country to make more money for investment (non-productive) financial sector. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:57 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > Perhaps a continuation of the discourse about "the knowledge economy" and > so on. In Australia we have had what is called "the clever country", > meaning, never mind the total loss of manufacturing industry, we are going > to survive in the world by being "clever." Various formulations of the > idea that with the changing nature of the forces of production and in > particular the global division of labour, deployed for the purpose of > offering prospects for the working class in the imperialist countries to > find some place for themsleves while capital is more intent on exploiting > cheap labour elsewhere? > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: >> Could there be a common pattern here? >> Nice quote from Halliday and thanks for the references, David. >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 2:52 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> >>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>> >>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>> about. >>> >>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>> >>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>> >>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>> >>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>> >>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>> >>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>> Occupy movement. >>> >>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>> it's also anti-creativity. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>> >>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>> >>>> Andy, >>>> Your comment: >>>> >>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>> way >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>> than >>>> offering "alternatives," >>>> >>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at the >>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>> >>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>> *living >>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are generated >>>> >>> and >>> >>>> lived. >>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>> >>> have >>> >>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>> >>> gathered >>> >>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>> >>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>> >>> demonstrating >>> >>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some of >>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>> >>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into existence >>>> >>> to >>> >>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>> >>> na?ve >>> >>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>> which >>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>> *source*? >>>> >>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>> theme. >>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>> >>> suggests >>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>> >>> have >>> >>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>> >>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>> >>> forming >>> >>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>> on >>>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities can >>>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer games), >>>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>> >>> renewal, >>> >>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>> which >>>>> >>> get >>> >>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>> big >>>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>> >>> philosophical >>> >>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>> to >>>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists who >>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>> "creative industries." >>>>> >>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any way >>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>> >>> than >>> >>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>> >>> without >>> >>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>> >>> "alternative". >>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>> >>> than a >>> >>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from their >>>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>> >>> ablunden@mira.net> >>> >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created by >>>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>> social >>>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>> does it? >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This is >>>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>> those >>>>>> parts of academia I >>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I very >>>>>> interested in the >>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they often >>>>>> appear to be new code >>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>> world. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>> below ... >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>> American >>>>>> discourse). >>>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Mar 23 09:55:59 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 10:55:59 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? -greg On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? > > andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> David, >> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that >> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. >> the one where creativity is anti-social. >> >> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him >> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I >> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on >> a >> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a >> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but >> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot >> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Greg-- >>> >>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >>> be. >>> >>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >>> Medvedev). >>> >>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >>> creative society to the clever society of one. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> David, >>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the >>>> model >>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's >>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do >>>> that... >>>> >>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >>>> >>>> >>> older >>> >>> >>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., >>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in >>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >>>> laborer is). >>>> >>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >>>> >>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >>>> >>>> >>> them - >>> >>> >>>> they certainly didn't expect it). >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>>>> >>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>>>> about. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>>>> >>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>>>> >>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>>>> >>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>>>> >>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>>>> >>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>>>> Occupy movement. >>>>> >>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>>>> it's also anti-creativity. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>>>> >>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Andy, >>>>>> Your comment: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> way >>> >>> >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> than >>> >>> >>>> offering "alternatives," >>>>>> >>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> the >>> >>> >>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> *living >>> >>> >>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> generated >>> >>> >>>> and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> lived. >>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> have >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> gathered >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>>>> >>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> demonstrating >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> of >>> >>> >>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>>>> >>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> existence >>> >>> >>>> to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> na?ve >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> which >>> >>> >>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>>>> *source*? >>>>>> >>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> theme. >>> >>> >>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> suggests >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> have >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> forming >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> on >>> >>> >>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> can >>> >>> >>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> games), >>> >>> >>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> renewal, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> which >>> >>> >>>> get >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> big >>> >>> >>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> philosophical >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> to >>> >>> >>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> who >>> >>> >>>> are >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>>>> "creative industries." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> way >>> >>> >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> than >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> without >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> "alternative". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> >>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> their >>> >>> >>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> by >>> >>> >>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> social >>> >>> >>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>>>> does it? >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> is >>> >>> >>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> those >>> >>> >>>> parts of academia I >>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> very >>> >>> >>>> interested in the >>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> often >>> >>> >>>> appear to be new code >>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>>>> below ... >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>>>> American >>>>>>>> discourse). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Mar 23 11:02:57 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 11:02:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: David, not sure if this should be posted in another thread? Your experience in New Zealand listening to versions of Vygotsky and Bahktin left many impressions. Also your writing a review you wrote exploring the overlap of dialectical and dialogical theory I would like to read. Is it possible to post your response you wrote?? as I believe it engages with a central theme comparing and contrasting Vygotsky and Bahktin's theories. Bahktin points out [ventriloquated THROUGH Kozulin's book] The voices of others are indispensable in the *theatre* of our inner speech. THIS feature of inner speech has an obvious similarity to a work of literature which on the one hand is encompassed by the language of its author, while on the other contains a multitude of separate voices from different characters" [page 179 in *Vygotsky's Psychology*] Discussing the relational overlap of concepts prosthetics, tools and texts and the place of *genres* within the *voices of our mind* engages with the theme of emerging cultural-historical genres developing within historical epochs. Can both dialectical AND dialogical *voices* be considered as reflected through the analogy of *theatrical voices/genres*?? The overlap between dialectical and dialogical theory seems of interest to many on this site On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:55 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > > I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... > > I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's > concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are > striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). > > And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to > the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I > fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). > > I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are > of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And > similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? > -greg > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? > > > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >> David, > >> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was > that > >> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - > i.e. > >> the one where creativity is anti-social. > >> > >> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining > him > >> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of > which I > >> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing > on > >> a > >> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a > >> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual > but > >> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot > >> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). > >> > >> -greg > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Greg-- > >>> > >>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an > >>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you > >>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, > >>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at > >>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so > >>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice > >>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot > >>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage > >>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium > >>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think > >>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must > >>> be. > >>> > >>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin > >>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not > >>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight > >>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits > >>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant > >>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as > >>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many > >>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what > >>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now > >>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least > >>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and > >>> Medvedev). > >>> > >>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to > >>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had > >>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the > >>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a > >>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a > >>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be > >>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. > >>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the > >>> creative society to the clever society of one. > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> > >>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> David, > >>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the > >>>> model > >>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). > It's > >>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do > >>>> that... > >>>> > >>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching > >>>> > >>>> > >>> older > >>> > >>> > >>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! > (i.e., > >>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed > in > >>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that > >>>> laborer is). > >>>> > >>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is > >>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... > >>>> > >>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit > >>>> > >>>> > >>> them - > >>> > >>> > >>>> they certainly didn't expect it). > >>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg > >>>> > >>>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic > >>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently > >>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. > >>>>> > >>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came > >>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes > >>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very > >>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence > >>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging > >>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new > >>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much > >>>>> about. > >>>>> > >>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's > >>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the > interests > >>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves > >>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans > >>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests > >>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must > >>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation > >>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? > >>>>> > >>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new > >>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a > >>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In > >>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly > >>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four > >>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, > >>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring > >>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, > >>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little > >>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. > >>>>> > >>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a > >>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to > >>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people > >>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a > >>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very > >>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. > >>>>> > >>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language > of > >>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): > >>>>> > >>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the > last > >>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in > >>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological > >>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, > >>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision > >>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of > >>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous > >>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the > >>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view > >>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of > >>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great > >>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United > >>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process > >>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been > >>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by > >>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition > >>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process > device." > >>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). > >>>>> > >>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on > >>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in > >>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! > >>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I > >>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own > >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, > >>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the > >>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is > >>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on > >>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the > >>>>> Occupy movement. > >>>>> > >>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, > a > >>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, > >>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem > is, > >>>>> it's also anti-creativity. > >>>>> > >>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Andy, > >>>>>> Your comment: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> way > >>> > >>> > >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > >>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> than > >>> > >>> > >>>> offering "alternatives," > >>>>>> > >>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> the > >>> > >>> > >>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity > with > >>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> *living > >>> > >>> > >>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> generated > >>> > >>> > >>>> and > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> lived. > >>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* > which > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> have > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most > of > >>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory > >>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> gathered > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> demonstrating > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> of > >>> > >>> > >>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* > >>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> existence > >>> > >>> > >>>> to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may > be > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> na?ve > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> which > >>> > >>> > >>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the > >>>>>> *source*? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> theme. > >>> > >>> > >>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> suggests > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness > may > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> have > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> forming > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> to express alternative *values*? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> on > >>> > >>> > >>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> can > >>> > >>> > >>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative > >>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> games), > >>> > >>> > >>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> renewal, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> which > >>> > >>> > >>>> get > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> big > >>> > >>> > >>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People > >>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with > >>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> philosophical > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> to > >>> > >>> > >>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> who > >>> > >>> > >>>> are > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the > >>>>>>> "creative industries." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> way > >>> > >>> > >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to > >>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, > rather > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> than > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> without > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> "alternative". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> > >>> > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> mike cole wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and > >>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be > more > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> than a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? > >>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> their > >>> > >>> > >>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that > >>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of > >>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as > chiapas > >>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> by > >>> > >>> > >>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> social > >>> > >>> > >>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good > >>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about > >>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, > >>>>>>>> does it? > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> ------------ > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ < > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means > >>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> is > >>> > >>> > >>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by > >>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on > co-operative > >>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus > on > >>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working > >>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" > >>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you > query > >>>>>>>> was to suggest that the > >>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities > has > >>>>>>>> increased markedly in > >>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> those > >>> > >>> > >>>> parts of academia I > >>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and > >>>>>>>> creativity" all of which > >>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> very > >>> > >>> > >>>> interested in the > >>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> often > >>> > >>> > >>>> appear to be new code > >>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a > lean, > >>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal > >>>>>>>> world. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. > >>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment > >>>>>>>> below ... > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is > >>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of > >>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% > idea > >>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in > >>>>>>>> American > >>>>>>>> discourse). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mike > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Mar 23 14:57:58 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 06:57:58 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: Yes, you are probably right--this might be a different thread. But one of the problems of development is that it is only really clear what a neoformation should be called in hindsight. So I thought I would just keep using the old thread. (Vygotsky does this a lot too, you know; he goes on using words like "pseudoconcept" and "neoformation" long after they have stopped referring to the meaning they were originally coined for). The article in question isn't mine, Larry. It's Wolff-Michael Roth's, and you can read it here: http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/article/view/20 I was asked to review it, and I did. But I don't think reading my reviews would add much to Wolff-Michael's work; I mostly just did proofreading. I guess I think that reviewers have no business making editorial decisions, much less authorial ones; I really feel that my job as a reviewer is to help the author and the editor make the work publishable. Here's what I got out of Wolff-Michael's article. I had always considered that Bakhtin's rejection of dialectics was simply a refusal to rise to the level of theory. That is why he is popular with the postmodernists and their "incredulity towards metanarratives", but it is also why he cannot ever differentiate between the interpersonal and the social, and why he has to work quite hard to keep his "first philosophy" from just becoming solipsism (I think he succeeds, but it is only by a slightly deified notion of the role of the "other"). Wolff-Michael convinced me that this is not the whole story. Bakhtin's a theorist, through and through. But, as an idealist, Bakhtin simply did not rise to the level of materialist dialectics. He understood dialectics in an entirely logical way and not as a concrete, living reality. Now, that meant that poor Bakhtin had to re-invent dialectics as a concrete, living reality, and give it a new name. To paraphrase Bakthin himself, "Take dialectics, strip away the millenia of history, the force of ideology, the surrounding material context of society and the ever-unfolding content of culture, cram the whole thing into two sensuous, embodied human consciousnesses, and that's how you get dialogue." David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 24 March 2014 03:02, Larry Purss wrote: > David, > not sure if this should be posted in another thread? > Your experience in New Zealand listening to versions of Vygotsky and > Bahktin left many impressions. Also your writing a review you wrote > exploring the overlap of dialectical and dialogical theory I would like to > read. > Is it possible to post your response you wrote?? as I believe it engages > with a central theme comparing and contrasting Vygotsky and Bahktin's > theories. > > Bahktin points out [ventriloquated THROUGH Kozulin's book] > > The voices of others are indispensable in the *theatre* of our inner > speech. THIS feature of inner speech has an obvious similarity to a work of > literature which on the one hand is encompassed by the language of its > author, while on the other contains a multitude of separate voices from > different characters" [page 179 in *Vygotsky's Psychology*] > > Discussing the relational overlap of concepts prosthetics, tools and texts > and the place of *genres* within the *voices of our mind* engages with > the theme of emerging cultural-historical genres developing within > historical epochs. Can both dialectical AND dialogical *voices* be > considered as reflected through the analogy of *theatrical voices/genres*?? > > > > > > > The overlap between dialectical and dialogical theory seems of interest to > many on this site > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:55 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... >> >> I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's >> concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are >> striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). >> >> And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to >> the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I >> fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). >> >> I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are >> of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And >> similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> > why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >> > >> > andy >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > >> > >> > Greg Thompson wrote: >> > >> >> David, >> >> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was >> that >> >> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - >> i.e. >> >> the one where creativity is anti-social. >> >> >> >> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining >> him >> >> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of >> which I >> >> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing >> on >> >> a >> >> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a >> >> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual >> but >> >> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot >> >> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >> >> >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Greg-- >> >>> >> >>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >> >>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >> >>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >> >>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >> >>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >> >>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >> >>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >> >>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >> >>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >> >>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >> >>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >> >>> be. >> >>> >> >>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >> >>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >> >>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >> >>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >> >>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >> >>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >> >>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >> >>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >> >>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >> >>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >> >>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >> >>> Medvedev). >> >>> >> >>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >> >>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >> >>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >> >>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >> >>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >> >>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >> >>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >> >>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >> >>> creative society to the clever society of one. >> >>> >> >>> David Kellogg >> >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> David, >> >>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the >> >>>> model >> >>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). >> It's >> >>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do >> >>>> that... >> >>>> >> >>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> older >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! >> (i.e., >> >>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed >> in >> >>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >> >>>> laborer is). >> >>>> >> >>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >> >>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >> >>>> >> >>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> them - >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> they certainly didn't expect it). >> >>>> -greg >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >> >>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >> >>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >> >>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >> >>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >> >>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >> >>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >> >>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >> >>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >> >>>>> about. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >> >>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the >> interests >> >>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >> >>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >> >>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >> >>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >> >>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >> >>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >> >>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >> >>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >> >>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >> >>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >> >>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >> >>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >> >>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >> >>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >> >>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >> >>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >> >>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >> >>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >> >>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >> >>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language >> of >> >>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the >> last >> >>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >> >>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >> >>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >> >>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >> >>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >> >>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >> >>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >> >>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >> >>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >> >>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >> >>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >> >>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >> >>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >> >>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >> >>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >> >>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process >> device." >> >>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >> >>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >> >>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >> >>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >> >>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >> >>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >> >>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >> >>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >> >>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >> >>>>> Occupy movement. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, >> a >> >>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >> >>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem >> is, >> >>>>> it's also anti-creativity. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> David Kellogg >> >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Andy, >> >>>>>> Your comment: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> way >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >> >>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> than >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> offering "alternatives," >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> the >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity >> with >> >>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> *living >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> generated >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> and >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> lived. >> >>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* >> which >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> have >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most >> of >> >>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >> >>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> gathered >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> demonstrating >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> of >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >> >>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> existence >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> to >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may >> be >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> na?ve >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> which >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >> >>>>>> *source*? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> theme. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> suggests >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness >> may >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> have >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> forming >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> to express alternative *values*? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> on >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> can >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >> >>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> games), >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> renewal, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> which >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> get >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> big >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >> >>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >> >>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> philosophical >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> to >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> who >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> are >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >> >>>>>>> "creative industries." >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> way >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >> >>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, >> rather >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> than >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> without >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> "alternative". >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Andy >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> ------------ >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >> >>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be >> more >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> than a >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >> >>>>>>>> Mike >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips > >>>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> their >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >> >>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >> >>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as >> chiapas >> >>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> by >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> social >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >> >>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >> >>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >> >>>>>>>> does it? >> >>>>>>>> Andy >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >> >>>>>>>> ------------ >> >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ < >> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >> >>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> is >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >> >>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on >> co-operative >> >>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus >> on >> >>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >> >>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >> >>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you >> query >> >>>>>>>> was to suggest that the >> >>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities >> has >> >>>>>>>> increased markedly in >> >>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> those >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> parts of academia I >> >>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >> >>>>>>>> creativity" all of which >> >>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> very >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> interested in the >> >>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> often >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> appear to be new code >> >>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a >> lean, >> >>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >> >>>>>>>> world. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >> >>>>>>>> mike >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >> >>>>>>>> below ... >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >> >>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >> >>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% >> idea >> >>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >> >>>>>>>> American >> >>>>>>>> discourse). >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> mike >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >>>> Assistant Professor >> >>>> Department of Anthropology >> >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >>>> Brigham Young University >> >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 23 16:44:53 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:44:53 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: <532F71F5.9080808@mira.net> Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature works, and I sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the Young Hegel and was "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I don't know much about Bakhtin. But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of subjectivity to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to the Logic, or what he has to say about education in the Philosophy of Right, or his Psychology in the Philosophy of Spirit? One of the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the fad (as he saw it) for wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel thought this was liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this impression, Greg? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > > I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... > > I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by > Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the > parallels are striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). > > And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally > contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian > to my mind (I fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave > it at that for now). > > I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences > are of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? > And similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? > -greg > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? > > andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > David, > Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My > point was that > Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of > creativity - i.e. > the one where creativity is anti-social. > > And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty > imagining him > as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a > topic of which I > had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as > drawing on a > different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws > from a > tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the > individual but > rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who > is shot > through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg > > wrote: > > > > Greg-- > > Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite > of an > anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just > what you > meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, > for example, > stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice > there is at > least one and probably many more equally creative voices. > It seems so > obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really > hearing the voice > of his wife, and not just when the female characters > speak; I cannot > be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of > his marriage > measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the > social medium > of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; > but I think > Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it > often must > be. > > Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with > some chagrin > that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, > it is not > particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too > much daylight > between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits > reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. > But I meant > to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the > conference as > being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, > according to many > speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and > others) what > made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody > has now > admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a > scoundrel, not least > for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, > Voloshinov and > Medvedev). > > This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin > (who appears to > have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's > play had > neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? > But the > comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set > out as a > kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's > phrase), make a > certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR > is to be > taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in > psychology as well. > Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the > interpersonal, and the > creative society to the clever society of one. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > David, > Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social > creativity". This is the model > of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera > John-Steiner's work). It's > everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, > no don't do that... > > Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how > capitalism is wrenching > > > older > > > workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" > concretized! (i.e., > here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" > - labor viewed in > the abstract - one worker is as good as another > regardless of who that > laborer is). > > Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another > "Chinese wall" is > crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... > > Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never > knew what hit > > > them - > > > they certainly didn't expect it). > -greg > > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg > > > > > wrote: > > > As you probably know, Korea is currently run by > the neomilitaristic > scion of the previous dictator, who took power in > a transparently > rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I > mean this one. > > Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator > Park Cheonghi, came > to power about a year ago, first by stealing the > opposition's clothes > (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by > having such a very > unambitious programme to begin with). The National > Intelligence > Service then flooded the country with highly > creative Tweets alleging > that her opponents were soft on communism, one of > those new > mobilizations of social media that you may not > have heard so much > about. > > Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen > the opposition's > clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her > promises in the interests > of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of > this involves > reneging on a massive programme of social welfare > that Koreans > desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of > Seoul in the interests > of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). > But surely, one must > put something in the place of a promise of > pensions, job creation > schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? > > No, not really--all you have to do is babble and > blather about a new > "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity > driven economy" is a > pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant > fact of life. In > South Korea, where we nominally respect the > elderly (and we certainly > pay them more than the young) it soon becomes > cheaper to employ four > or five young people rather than one older one. > This means, > necessarily, booting out older workers around age > fifty and hiring > younger ones to replace them. The older workers > (and, for that atter, > younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are > then given a little > handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. > > Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, > it's obviously a > non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one > really has to try to > inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" > mentality that people > have in other countries, and that is really a bit > of a poser in a > country which, although highly stratified > socially, is still very > collectivistic culturally. That is where education > comes in. > > Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday > (2004, the Language of > Early Childhood, p. 251): > > "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language > development in the last > quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in > 1991--DK), especially in > educational contexts, has been permeated by a > particular ideological > construction of childhood. This view combines > individualism, > romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the > Disneyfied vision > of a child that is constructed in the media and in > certain kinds of > kiddielit. Each child is presented as a > freestanding, autonomous > being; and learning consists in releasing and > brining into flower the > latent awareness that is already there in the bud. > This is the view > that was embodied in the 'creativity' and > 'personal growth' models of > education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David > Holbrook in Great > Britain; and more recently, from another > standpoint, in the United > States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's > writing as process > and of their texts as property to be individually > owned. It has been > supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism > and latterly by > cognitive science models which interpret learning > as the acquisition > of ready0made information by some kind of > independent process device." > (I omit Halliday's references). > > My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic > Pedagogy conference on > Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" > ideas were very much in > evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed > to Vygotskyan ones! > At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, > not least because I > had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work > by our own > Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy > Journal. Roth's piece, > which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued > for the > compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on > theoretical grounds it is > true). There was also a very fine presentation by > Michael Gardiner on > Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse > surrounding the > Occupy movement. > > Now I am starting to understand a little better. > There is, actually, a > model of creativity out there which is > individualistic, > entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even > anti-social. The problem is, > it's also anti-creativity. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > > On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss > > wrote: > > > Andy, > Your comment: > > "Avram, I am not convinced that creating > niche economies can in any > > > way > > > ameliorate the domination of big capital. We > have to find a way to > penetrate and subvert the sources of > capitalist exploitation, rather > > > than > > > offering "alternatives," > > suggests there may be ways to potentially > penetrate and subvert "at > > > the > > > source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. > > I have wondered if my utopian sympathies > which show my curiosity with > exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as > *living experiments* or > > > *living > > > laboratories* where alternative life styles > and attitudes are > > > generated > > > and > > > lived. > It must be my personal experiences with > *alternate communities* which > > > have > > > attempted to actualize their ideal > alternatives. I must admit, most of > these experiments are failures. However > Cultural Historical Theory > developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey > and Mead in Chicago > > > gathered > > > together a committed group with shared ideals. > > In order to penetrate capitalism *at its > source* may require > > > demonstrating > > > other ways of life as experiments which > express other *values*. Some > > > of > > > these alternative approaches will include > *alternative community*. > > The current discussion on the drift of > *university departments* > suggests alternative forms of gathering may > need to come into > > > existence > > > to > > > express alternative *values* However I also > accept this *hope* may be > > > na?ve > > > and not grounded in recognition of the depth > of capitalist ideology > > > which > > > co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the > requirement to subvert the > *source*? > > To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book > which is expressing a > > > theme. > > > He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature > of consciousness and > > > suggests > > > the > > "interpretive or metacognitive function > [aspect?] of consciousness may > > > have > > > an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING > functions. > > I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to > *alternative communities* > > > forming > > > to express alternative *values*? > > > > > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > > wrote: > > > One of the themes of the correlation you > mention, Mike, is the focus > > > on > > > "the creative industries." There are > theories about the way cities > > > can > > > escape from their rust-bucket depression > by promoting "the creative > industries." These include software > development (e.g. computer > > > games), > > > advertising, packaging and fashion. That's > probably fine for urban > > > renewal, > > > except for the artists who get booted out > of their old warehouses > > > which > > > get > > > done up for the expected "creative > industries," but where it's has a > > > big > > > negative impact in the academy is in the > "critical sciences." People > involved in social and political criticism > are suddenly faced with > imperatives to serve the "creative > industries." So feminist, > > > philosophical > > > and political critiques, which were > surviving by a thread, now have > > > to > > > educate software makers who are building > computer games or artists > > > who > > > are > > > designing advertisements all in the name > of needing to support the > "creative industries." > > Avram, I am not convinced that creating > niche economies can in any > > > way > > > ameliorate the domination of big capital. > We have to find a way to > penetrate and subvert the sources of > capitalist exploitation, rather > > > than > > > offering "alternatives," I think. > Capitalism can do perfectly well > > > without > > > a certain percentage of the world's > population who find an > > > "alternative". > > > Andy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > > So my noticing of the fascination and > promotion of "culture and > creativity" discourse, design schools, > and neoliberalism may be more > > > than a > > > symptom of failing eyesight? > Mike > > On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips > arips@optonline.net > >> wrote: > > The problem is the connection > between people alienated from > > > their > > > labor, or no labor and building a > new democratic structure- that > can happen in a small scale , and > spread out to new modes of > production away from the > destruction of capital-such as chiapas > and taking over factories in > Argentina. > ----- Original Message ----- From: > "Andy Blunden" < > > > ablunden@mira.net > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity" > Sent: Friday, March > 21, 2014 8:35 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > > Yes, it seems to me that the > burgeoning inequality created > > > by > > > neoliberalism is a situation > crying out for imaginative > > > social > > > entrepreneurship, i.e., social > movement building. It is good > to hear that the 1/99 protests > have generated talk about > inequality, but that in itself > does not create a solution, > does it? > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > Avram Rips wrote: > > Innovation and > entrepreneurship in some ways means > capital crowding out > social space and solidarity. This > > > is > > > evident in cities-whole > neighborhoods taken over by > wealthy crafts people, and > little focus on co-operative > movements for working > class people-where a new focus on > participatory democracy > can be developed ,and working > class culture in the > Gramscian sense. take care! Avram > ----- Original Message > ----- From: "mike cole" > > > To: "Andy Blunden" > > > Cc: "eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity" > > > Sent: Friday, March 21, > 2014 12:31 AM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: > poverty/class > > > Andy--- My intent in > the garbled sentence you query > was to suggest that the > discourse in the US > around vicious inequalities has > increased markedly in > the past year in > tandem with a kind of frenzy in > > > those > > > parts of academia I > come in contact with > about "design, culture, and > creativity" all of which > are linked to > innovation and entrepreneurship. I > > > very > > > interested in the > nature of imagination > and creativity but I they > > > often > > > appear to be new code > words for social and > individual salvation in a lean, > mean, neo-liberal > world. > > Maybe just another of > my confusions. > mike > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 > at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > Mike, could you > clarify a little your comment > below ... > > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > ... My fear > that is appearance is > > non-accidentally rated to explosion of > concern about > poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea > has become > ubiquitous in > American > discourse). > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 23 17:36:07 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 00:36:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Bakhtin/Hegel In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Greg, You might find this useful: cheers Martin From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Mar 23 19:45:51 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 19:45:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Bakhtin/Hegel In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: That book looks very intresting, Martin. When I retire ..... mike On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Greg, > > You might find this useful: > > > > cheers > > Martin > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 23 20:03:28 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:03:28 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Bakhtin/Hegel In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: <532FA080.4080804@mira.net> Interesting. I presume Martin is leading us to the chapter by Jean-Francois Cote on Bakhtin and Hegel. I would be interested in any serious consideration of Hegel's philosophy in connecion with dialogue. Hegel himself only deals with dialogue as a means of explicating philosophy among the Greeks (other than a line where he says every work of Art is a dialogue with the viewer who confronts it), but it is really impossible to read Hegel's dialectic as anything other than a line of development driven by dialogue. Many writers have followed this lead, but alas always taking dialogue as a process which lacks mediation, which as such cannot grasp Hegel's meaning. But what I find wierd with Cote's article is that he seems to take it as read that the subject matter of Hegel's philosophy is *introspection* in the manner of Husserl's phenomenology. It just is very much *not* that. I find this "reading" of Hegel to be very destructive as not only is it very alien to the whole spirit of Hegel's philosophy, but allows every word in his writing to be misinterpreted in a subjectivist way which does much to make Hegel's writing even more inaccessible than it was to begin with. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Greg, > > You might find this useful: > > > > cheers > > Martin > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 24 03:00:10 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 19:00:10 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: Well, Halliday discusses the effects of childism on language learning research in more or less the same terms that Vygotsky uses in his lectures on pedology. Childism is preformism; it assumes what it has to explain; it tells us that development is purely quantitative and qualitative change in development--real, structural change--is fictitious. Development is not development at all; it's just de-envelopment. But let me keep this on-topic; the name of this thread is still "poverty/class". About two months ago in New Zealand I was talking to an early childhood researcher who argued that any form of compulsory education is wrong, and that any age of child must be allowed to choose what that child is and is not willing to study. She gave the example of a young child who attended the extreme "childist" Summerhill academy and decided, at the ripe age of six or seven, that learning literacy was a waste of time. Since this was Summerhill, the decision was allowed to stand, and the child grew up functionally illiterate. This was only a mild inconvenience until the person in question, no longer a child, was offered a position teaching English in Japan, where it became necessary to proofread academic papers for international publication. In about six weeks time (we are told) the person in question was able to acquire the skills needed (mostly phonic coding and decoding), and he proceeded with his life without any appreciable difficulty. What does this instructive little anecdote prove? Not what the researcher I was speaking to thought it proved. It proves that market demand for literacy skills was strong, standards were low, and the gentleman in question was white, British and a native speaker of the English language. Had the gentleman in question been, say, Haitian, he need not have applied for any position teaching English in Japan or anywhere else. What this story really proves is that Bernstein and Halliday are right when they say that "childism" applied to language teaching just privileges people who can acquire the privileged genres of language at home as their birthright. They--and only they--will be always seen to have acquired it "naturally". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 24 March 2014 01:55, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > > I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... > > I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's > concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are > striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). > > And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to > the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I > fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). > > I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are > of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And > similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? > -greg > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >> >> andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >>> David, >>> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that >>> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. >>> the one where creativity is anti-social. >>> >>> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him >>> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I >>> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on >>> a >>> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a >>> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but >>> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot >>> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Greg-- >>>> >>>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >>>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >>>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >>>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >>>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >>>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >>>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >>>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >>>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >>>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >>>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >>>> be. >>>> >>>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >>>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >>>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >>>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >>>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >>>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >>>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >>>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >>>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >>>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >>>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >>>> Medvedev). >>>> >>>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >>>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >>>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >>>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >>>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >>>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >>>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >>>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >>>> creative society to the clever society of one. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the >>>>> model >>>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's >>>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do >>>>> that... >>>>> >>>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >>>>> >>>>> >>>> older >>>> >>>> >>>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., >>>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in >>>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >>>>> laborer is). >>>>> >>>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >>>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >>>>> >>>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >>>>> >>>>> >>>> them - >>>> >>>> >>>>> they certainly didn't expect it). >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>>>>> >>>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>>>>> about. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>>>>> >>>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>>>>> >>>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>>>>> >>>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>>>>> >>>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>>>>> Occupy movement. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>>>>> it's also anti-creativity. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy, >>>>>>> Your comment: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> way >>>> >>>> >>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> than >>>> >>>> >>>>> offering "alternatives," >>>>>>> >>>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> *living >>>> >>>> >>>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> generated >>>> >>>> >>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> lived. >>>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> gathered >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> demonstrating >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> existence >>>> >>>> >>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> na?ve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> which >>>> >>>> >>>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>>>>> *source*? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> theme. >>>> >>>> >>>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> suggests >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> forming >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>> >>>> >>>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> can >>>> >>>> >>>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> games), >>>> >>>> >>>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> renewal, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> which >>>> >>>> >>>>> get >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> big >>>> >>>> >>>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> philosophical >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>> >>>> >>>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> who >>>> >>>> >>>>> are >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>>>>> "creative industries." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> way >>>> >>>> >>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> without >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "alternative". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> than a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> their >>>> >>>> >>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> by >>>> >>>> >>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> social >>>> >>>> >>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>>>>> does it? >>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> those >>>> >>>> >>>>> parts of academia I >>>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> very >>>> >>>> >>>>> interested in the >>>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> often >>>> >>>> >>>>> appear to be new code >>>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>>>>> below ... >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>>>>> American >>>>>>>>> discourse). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Mar 24 06:28:16 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:28:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> , Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi David, I don't think you can consider Summerhill based on preformism in any way. It is more interest driven. I don't think they take a position one way or the other on this idea of "childism." Poor Summerhill, constantly getting beat up upon - I wonder how many of the Summerhill anecdotes are apocryphal in nature. I don't think there is any doubt that language, or at least specific uses of language, are part of what Bourdieu refers to as cultural capital. The issue is what to do about it. What is the mix of interest, opportunity and material capital. The idea that we can teach some type of universal language in the classroom (usually based on the cultural capital of the ruling class) seems to be a failed experiment in any case. Still, this I suppose is part of the presupposition of the Common Core (of course a lot of the Common Core also seems to involve making large piles of money for rich testing companies). I'm not sure what the answer is. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of David Kellogg [dkellogg60@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 6:00 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class Well, Halliday discusses the effects of childism on language learning research in more or less the same terms that Vygotsky uses in his lectures on pedology. Childism is preformism; it assumes what it has to explain; it tells us that development is purely quantitative and qualitative change in development--real, structural change--is fictitious. Development is not development at all; it's just de-envelopment. But let me keep this on-topic; the name of this thread is still "poverty/class". About two months ago in New Zealand I was talking to an early childhood researcher who argued that any form of compulsory education is wrong, and that any age of child must be allowed to choose what that child is and is not willing to study. She gave the example of a young child who attended the extreme "childist" Summerhill academy and decided, at the ripe age of six or seven, that learning literacy was a waste of time. Since this was Summerhill, the decision was allowed to stand, and the child grew up functionally illiterate. This was only a mild inconvenience until the person in question, no longer a child, was offered a position teaching English in Japan, where it became necessary to proofread academic papers for international publication. In about six weeks time (we are told) the person in question was able to acquire the skills needed (mostly phonic coding and decoding), and he proceeded with his life without any appreciable difficulty. What does this instructive little anecdote prove? Not what the researcher I was speaking to thought it proved. It proves that market demand for literacy skills was strong, standards were low, and the gentleman in question was white, British and a native speaker of the English language. Had the gentleman in question been, say, Haitian, he need not have applied for any position teaching English in Japan or anywhere else. What this story really proves is that Bernstein and Halliday are right when they say that "childism" applied to language teaching just privileges people who can acquire the privileged genres of language at home as their birthright. They--and only they--will be always seen to have acquired it "naturally". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 24 March 2014 01:55, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > > I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... > > I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's > concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are > striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). > > And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to > the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I > fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). > > I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are > of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And > similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? > -greg > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >> >> andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >>> David, >>> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that >>> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. >>> the one where creativity is anti-social. >>> >>> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him >>> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I >>> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on >>> a >>> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a >>> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but >>> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot >>> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Greg-- >>>> >>>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >>>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >>>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >>>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >>>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >>>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >>>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >>>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >>>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >>>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >>>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >>>> be. >>>> >>>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >>>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >>>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >>>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >>>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >>>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >>>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >>>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >>>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >>>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >>>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >>>> Medvedev). >>>> >>>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >>>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >>>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >>>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >>>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >>>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >>>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >>>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >>>> creative society to the clever society of one. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the >>>>> model >>>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's >>>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do >>>>> that... >>>>> >>>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >>>>> >>>>> >>>> older >>>> >>>> >>>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., >>>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in >>>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >>>>> laborer is). >>>>> >>>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >>>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >>>>> >>>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >>>>> >>>>> >>>> them - >>>> >>>> >>>>> they certainly didn't expect it). >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>>>>> >>>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>>>>> about. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>>>>> >>>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>>>>> >>>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>>>>> >>>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>>>>> >>>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>>>>> Occupy movement. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>>>>> it's also anti-creativity. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy, >>>>>>> Your comment: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> way >>>> >>>> >>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> than >>>> >>>> >>>>> offering "alternatives," >>>>>>> >>>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> *living >>>> >>>> >>>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> generated >>>> >>>> >>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> lived. >>>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> gathered >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> demonstrating >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> existence >>>> >>>> >>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> na?ve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> which >>>> >>>> >>>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>>>>> *source*? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> theme. >>>> >>>> >>>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> suggests >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> forming >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>> >>>> >>>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> can >>>> >>>> >>>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> games), >>>> >>>> >>>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> renewal, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> which >>>> >>>> >>>>> get >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> big >>>> >>>> >>>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> philosophical >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>> >>>> >>>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> who >>>> >>>> >>>>> are >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>>>>> "creative industries." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> way >>>> >>>> >>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> without >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> "alternative". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> >>>> >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> than a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> their >>>> >>>> >>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> by >>>> >>>> >>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> social >>>> >>>> >>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>>>>> does it? >>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> those >>>> >>>> >>>>> parts of academia I >>>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> very >>>> >>>> >>>>> interested in the >>>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> often >>>> >>>> >>>>> appear to be new code >>>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>>>>> below ... >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>>>>> American >>>>>>>>> discourse). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From anamshane@gmail.com Mon Mar 24 07:03:37 2014 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:03:37 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> Message-ID: <73AD743E-1F58-48E4-8DCE-D4EFCC3A95D5@gmail.com> Dear David and all, You can see an excerpt from the movie Children of Summerhill, about the man who himself learned to read and write only when he needed to teach Japanese business men -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o58xTHGYzIY&list=UUra9yGMM9H0Atjb5aSY4yvA&index=5 I am not sure that I would agree with Bernstein's positions on language learning, as he developed a strong deficit model of understanding what "cultural capital" means and what is lost if the child does not have a "right" cultural background. Recently an Indian educationalist, Sugata Mitra, developed an approach to education where children using technology do a lot of learning on their own. Most of the children come from poor, non-english speaking backgrounds, which does not deter them to learn a lot of things including English they need to get what they want (in terms of information, knowledge and skills). Mitra's view of learning is not merely "childist", but based on "dynamic self-organizing systems" -- where learning is driven by children's interests and enthusiasm and educational environments that suports these interests enable them to flourish. It would be interesting to discuss his approach and compare it to Bernsten's and A.S. Neill's (the founder of Summerhill). You can see Sugata Mitra's talk on his approach on TED here: - http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education What do you think? Ana On Mar 24, 2014, at 6:00 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Well, Halliday discusses the effects of childism on language learning > research in more or less the same terms that Vygotsky uses in his > lectures on pedology. Childism is preformism; it assumes what it has > to explain; it tells us that development is purely quantitative and > qualitative change in development--real, structural change--is > fictitious. Development is not development at all; it's just > de-envelopment. > > But let me keep this on-topic; the name of this thread is still > "poverty/class". About two months ago in New Zealand I was talking to > an early childhood researcher who argued that any form of compulsory > education is wrong, and that any age of child must be allowed to > choose what that child is and is not willing to study. She gave the > example of a young child who attended the extreme "childist" > Summerhill academy and decided, at the ripe age of six or seven, that > learning literacy was a waste of time. Since this was Summerhill, the > decision was allowed to stand, and the child grew up functionally > illiterate. This was only a mild inconvenience until the person in > question, no longer a child, was offered a position teaching English > in Japan, where it became necessary to proofread academic papers for > international publication. In about six weeks time (we are told) the > person in question was able to acquire the skills needed (mostly > phonic coding and decoding), and he proceeded with his life without > any appreciable difficulty. > > What does this instructive little anecdote prove? Not what the > researcher I was speaking to thought it proved. It proves that market > demand for literacy skills was strong, standards were low, and the > gentleman in question was white, British and a native speaker of the > English language. Had the gentleman in question been, say, Haitian, he > need not have applied for any position teaching English in Japan or > anywhere else. What this story really proves is that Bernstein and > Halliday are right when they say that "childism" applied to language > teaching just privileges people who can acquire the privileged genres > of language at home as their birthright. They--and only they--will be > always seen to have acquired it "naturally". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 24 March 2014 01:55, Greg Thompson wrote: >> Andy, >> >> I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... >> >> I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's >> concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are >> striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). >> >> And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to >> the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I >> fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). >> >> I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are >> of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And >> similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> David, >>>> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that >>>> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. >>>> the one where creativity is anti-social. >>>> >>>> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him >>>> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I >>>> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on >>>> a >>>> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a >>>> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but >>>> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot >>>> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Greg-- >>>>> >>>>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >>>>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >>>>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >>>>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >>>>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >>>>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >>>>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >>>>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >>>>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >>>>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >>>>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >>>>> be. >>>>> >>>>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >>>>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >>>>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >>>>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >>>>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >>>>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >>>>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >>>>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >>>>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >>>>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >>>>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >>>>> Medvedev). >>>>> >>>>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >>>>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >>>>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >>>>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >>>>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >>>>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >>>>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >>>>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >>>>> creative society to the clever society of one. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> David, >>>>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the >>>>>> model >>>>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's >>>>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do >>>>>> that... >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> older >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., >>>>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in >>>>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >>>>>> laborer is). >>>>>> >>>>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >>>>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >>>>>> >>>>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> them - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> they certainly didn't expect it). >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>>>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>>>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>>>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>>>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>>>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>>>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>>>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>>>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>>>>>> about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>>>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>>>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>>>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>>>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>>>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>>>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>>>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>>>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>>>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>>>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>>>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>>>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>>>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>>>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>>>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>>>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>>>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>>>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>>>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>>>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>>>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>>>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>>>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>>>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>>>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>>>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>>>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>>>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>>>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>>>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>>>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>>>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>>>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>>>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>>>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>>>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>>>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>>>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>>>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>>>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>>>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>>>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>>>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>>>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>>>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>>>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>>>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>>>>>> Occupy movement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>>>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>>>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>>>>>> it's also anti-creativity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy, >>>>>>>> Your comment: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> way >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> offering "alternatives," >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> *living >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> generated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lived. >>>>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> gathered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> demonstrating >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> existence >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> na?ve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> which >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>>>>>> *source*? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> theme. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> suggests >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> forming >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> can >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> games), >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> renewal, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> which >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> get >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> big >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> philosophical >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> who >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>>>>>> "creative industries." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> way >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "alternative". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> than a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> their >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> social >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>>>>>> does it? >>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> those >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> parts of academia I >>>>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> interested in the >>>>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> often >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> appear to be new code >>>>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>>>>>> below ... >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>>>>>> American >>>>>>>>>> discourse). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 24 09:38:14 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:38:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Mitchell's cube Message-ID: The paper for discussion, Mitchell's cube, is now available at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/index.html Donna Kotsopoulos will be joining the discussion. Happy reading. mike From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 24 15:47:31 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 07:47:31 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael and Anna: Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact that we now have two very different communicative language teaching methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the theory of learning. Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a native speaker of the English language. Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, and not only to the underprivileged learner. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 24 March 2014 22:28, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi David, > > I don't think you can consider Summerhill based on preformism in any way. It is more interest driven. I don't think they take a position one way or the other on this idea of "childism." Poor Summerhill, constantly getting beat up upon - I wonder how many of the Summerhill anecdotes are apocryphal in nature. > > I don't think there is any doubt that language, or at least specific uses of language, are part of what Bourdieu refers to as cultural capital. The issue is what to do about it. What is the mix of interest, opportunity and material capital. The idea that we can teach some type of universal language in the classroom (usually based on the cultural capital of the ruling class) seems to be a failed experiment in any case. Still, this I suppose is part of the presupposition of the Common Core (of course a lot of the Common Core also seems to involve making large piles of money for rich testing companies). I'm not sure what the answer is. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of David Kellogg [dkellogg60@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 6:00 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class > > Well, Halliday discusses the effects of childism on language learning > research in more or less the same terms that Vygotsky uses in his > lectures on pedology. Childism is preformism; it assumes what it has > to explain; it tells us that development is purely quantitative and > qualitative change in development--real, structural change--is > fictitious. Development is not development at all; it's just > de-envelopment. > > But let me keep this on-topic; the name of this thread is still > "poverty/class". About two months ago in New Zealand I was talking to > an early childhood researcher who argued that any form of compulsory > education is wrong, and that any age of child must be allowed to > choose what that child is and is not willing to study. She gave the > example of a young child who attended the extreme "childist" > Summerhill academy and decided, at the ripe age of six or seven, that > learning literacy was a waste of time. Since this was Summerhill, the > decision was allowed to stand, and the child grew up functionally > illiterate. This was only a mild inconvenience until the person in > question, no longer a child, was offered a position teaching English > in Japan, where it became necessary to proofread academic papers for > international publication. In about six weeks time (we are told) the > person in question was able to acquire the skills needed (mostly > phonic coding and decoding), and he proceeded with his life without > any appreciable difficulty. > > What does this instructive little anecdote prove? Not what the > researcher I was speaking to thought it proved. It proves that market > demand for literacy skills was strong, standards were low, and the > gentleman in question was white, British and a native speaker of the > English language. Had the gentleman in question been, say, Haitian, he > need not have applied for any position teaching English in Japan or > anywhere else. What this story really proves is that Bernstein and > Halliday are right when they say that "childism" applied to language > teaching just privileges people who can acquire the privileged genres > of language at home as their birthright. They--and only they--will be > always seen to have acquired it "naturally". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 24 March 2014 01:55, Greg Thompson wrote: >> Andy, >> >> I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... >> >> I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's >> concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are >> striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). >> >> And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to >> the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I >> fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). >> >> I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are >> of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And >> similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >>> >>> andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> David, >>>> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My point was that >>>> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of creativity - i.e. >>>> the one where creativity is anti-social. >>>> >>>> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty imagining him >>>> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a topic of which I >>>> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as drawing on >>>> a >>>> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws from a >>>> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but >>>> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot >>>> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Greg-- >>>>> >>>>> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite of an >>>>> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just what you >>>>> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, for example, >>>>> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice there is at >>>>> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. It seems so >>>>> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really hearing the voice >>>>> of his wife, and not just when the female characters speak; I cannot >>>>> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of his marriage >>>>> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the social medium >>>>> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; but I think >>>>> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it often must >>>>> be. >>>>> >>>>> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with some chagrin >>>>> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, it is not >>>>> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too much daylight >>>>> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >>>>> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. But I meant >>>>> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the conference as >>>>> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, according to many >>>>> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and others) what >>>>> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody has now >>>>> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a scoundrel, not least >>>>> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, Voloshinov and >>>>> Medvedev). >>>>> >>>>> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin (who appears to >>>>> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's play had >>>>> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? But the >>>>> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set out as a >>>>> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's phrase), make a >>>>> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR is to be >>>>> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in psychology as well. >>>>> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the interpersonal, and the >>>>> creative society to the clever society of one. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> David, >>>>>> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social creativity". This is the >>>>>> model >>>>>> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera John-Steiner's work). It's >>>>>> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, no don't do >>>>>> that... >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how capitalism is wrenching >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> older >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" concretized! (i.e., >>>>>> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" - labor viewed in >>>>>> the abstract - one worker is as good as another regardless of who that >>>>>> laborer is). >>>>>> >>>>>> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another "Chinese wall" is >>>>>> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >>>>>> >>>>>> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never knew what hit >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> them - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> they certainly didn't expect it). >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by the neomilitaristic >>>>>>> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in a transparently >>>>>>> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I mean this one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator Park Cheonghi, came >>>>>>> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the opposition's clothes >>>>>>> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by having such a very >>>>>>> unambitious programme to begin with). The National Intelligence >>>>>>> Service then flooded the country with highly creative Tweets alleging >>>>>>> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of those new >>>>>>> mobilizations of social media that you may not have heard so much >>>>>>> about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen the opposition's >>>>>>> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her promises in the interests >>>>>>> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of this involves >>>>>>> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare that Koreans >>>>>>> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of Seoul in the interests >>>>>>> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). But surely, one must >>>>>>> put something in the place of a promise of pensions, job creation >>>>>>> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and blather about a new >>>>>>> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity driven economy" is a >>>>>>> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant fact of life. In >>>>>>> South Korea, where we nominally respect the elderly (and we certainly >>>>>>> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes cheaper to employ four >>>>>>> or five young people rather than one older one. This means, >>>>>>> necessarily, booting out older workers around age fifty and hiring >>>>>>> younger ones to replace them. The older workers (and, for that atter, >>>>>>> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are then given a little >>>>>>> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, it's obviously a >>>>>>> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one really has to try to >>>>>>> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" mentality that people >>>>>>> have in other countries, and that is really a bit of a poser in a >>>>>>> country which, although highly stratified socially, is still very >>>>>>> collectivistic culturally. That is where education comes in. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday (2004, the Language of >>>>>>> Early Childhood, p. 251): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language development in the last >>>>>>> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in 1991--DK), especially in >>>>>>> educational contexts, has been permeated by a particular ideological >>>>>>> construction of childhood. This view combines individualism, >>>>>>> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the Disneyfied vision >>>>>>> of a child that is constructed in the media and in certain kinds of >>>>>>> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a freestanding, autonomous >>>>>>> being; and learning consists in releasing and brining into flower the >>>>>>> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. This is the view >>>>>>> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and 'personal growth' models of >>>>>>> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David Holbrook in Great >>>>>>> Britain; and more recently, from another standpoint, in the United >>>>>>> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's writing as process >>>>>>> and of their texts as property to be individually owned. It has been >>>>>>> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism and latterly by >>>>>>> cognitive science models which interpret learning as the acquisition >>>>>>> of ready0made information by some kind of independent process device." >>>>>>> (I omit Halliday's references). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic Pedagogy conference on >>>>>>> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" ideas were very much in >>>>>>> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed to Vygotskyan ones! >>>>>>> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, not least because I >>>>>>> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work by our own >>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy Journal. Roth's piece, >>>>>>> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued for the >>>>>>> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on theoretical grounds it is >>>>>>> true). There was also a very fine presentation by Michael Gardiner on >>>>>>> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse surrounding the >>>>>>> Occupy movement. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now I am starting to understand a little better. There is, actually, a >>>>>>> model of creativity out there which is individualistic, >>>>>>> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even anti-social. The problem is, >>>>>>> it's also anti-creativity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy, >>>>>>>> Your comment: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> way >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> than >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> offering "alternatives," >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> suggests there may be ways to potentially penetrate and subvert "at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies which show my curiosity with >>>>>>>> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as *living experiments* or >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> *living >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> laboratories* where alternative life styles and attitudes are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> generated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lived. >>>>>>>> It must be my personal experiences with *alternate communities* which >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> attempted to actualize their ideal alternatives. I must admit, most of >>>>>>>> these experiments are failures. However Cultural Historical Theory >>>>>>>> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey and Mead in Chicago >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> gathered >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> together a committed group with shared ideals. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its source* may require >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> demonstrating >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> other ways of life as experiments which express other *values*. Some >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> these alternative approaches will include *alternative community*. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The current discussion on the drift of *university departments* >>>>>>>> suggests alternative forms of gathering may need to come into >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> existence >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> express alternative *values* However I also accept this *hope* may be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> na?ve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and not grounded in recognition of the depth of capitalist ideology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> which >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the requirement to subvert the >>>>>>>> *source*? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book which is expressing a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> theme. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature of consciousness and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> suggests >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "interpretive or metacognitive function [aspect?] of consciousness may >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING functions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to *alternative communities* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> forming >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to express alternative *values*? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> One of the themes of the correlation you mention, Mike, is the focus >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "the creative industries." There are theories about the way cities >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> can >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> escape from their rust-bucket depression by promoting "the creative >>>>>>>>> industries." These include software development (e.g. computer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> games), >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's probably fine for urban >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> renewal, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> except for the artists who get booted out of their old warehouses >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> which >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> get >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> done up for the expected "creative industries," but where it's has a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> big >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> negative impact in the academy is in the "critical sciences." People >>>>>>>>> involved in social and political criticism are suddenly faced with >>>>>>>>> imperatives to serve the "creative industries." So feminist, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> philosophical >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and political critiques, which were surviving by a thread, now have >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> educate software makers who are building computer games or artists >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> who >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> designing advertisements all in the name of needing to support the >>>>>>>>> "creative industries." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Avram, I am not convinced that creating niche economies can in any >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> way >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We have to find a way to >>>>>>>>> penetrate and subvert the sources of capitalist exploitation, rather >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> offering "alternatives," I think. Capitalism can do perfectly well >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a certain percentage of the world's population who find an >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "alternative". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So my noticing of the fascination and promotion of "culture and >>>>>>>>>> creativity" discourse, design schools, and neoliberalism may be more >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> than a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> symptom of failing eyesight? >>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >>>>>>>>> arips@optonline.net>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The problem is the connection between people alienated from >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> their >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> labor, or no labor and building a new democratic structure- that >>>>>>>>>> can happen in a small scale , and spread out to new modes of >>>>>>>>>> production away from the destruction of capital-such as chiapas >>>>>>>>>> and taking over factories in Argentina. >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Blunden" < >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ablunden@mira.net> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:35 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, it seems to me that the burgeoning inequality created >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> neoliberalism is a situation crying out for imaginative >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> social >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> entrepreneurship, i.e., social movement building. It is good >>>>>>>>>> to hear that the 1/99 protests have generated talk about >>>>>>>>>> inequality, but that in itself does not create a solution, >>>>>>>>>> does it? >>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> ------------ >>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Avram Rips wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Innovation and entrepreneurship in some ways means >>>>>>>>>> capital crowding out social space and solidarity. This >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> evident in cities-whole neighborhoods taken over by >>>>>>>>>> wealthy crafts people, and little focus on co-operative >>>>>>>>>> movements for working class people-where a new focus on >>>>>>>>>> participatory democracy can be developed ,and working >>>>>>>>>> class culture in the Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "mike cole" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: "Andy Blunden" >>>>>>>>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:31 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Andy--- My intent in the garbled sentence you query >>>>>>>>>> was to suggest that the >>>>>>>>>> discourse in the US around vicious inequalities has >>>>>>>>>> increased markedly in >>>>>>>>>> the past year in tandem with a kind of frenzy in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> those >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> parts of academia I >>>>>>>>>> come in contact with about "design, culture, and >>>>>>>>>> creativity" all of which >>>>>>>>>> are linked to innovation and entrepreneurship. I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> interested in the >>>>>>>>>> nature of imagination and creativity but I they >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> often >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> appear to be new code >>>>>>>>>> words for social and individual salvation in a lean, >>>>>>>>>> mean, neo-liberal >>>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe just another of my confusions. >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mike, could you clarify a little your comment >>>>>>>>>> below ... >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... My fear that is appearance is >>>>>>>>>> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >>>>>>>>>> concern about poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >>>>>>>>>> has become ubiquitous in >>>>>>>>>> American >>>>>>>>>> discourse). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 24 18:06:19 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 18:06:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: David-- I want strongly to agree with you and Michael that we all know that privileged genres privilege the privileged, but the question is what to do about it That is, the rich get richer aka the "Mathew effect" - to s/he who has be given." I am still considering with the notion that "childism" equals pre-formism. Just as pushing the bernsteinian codes to extremes is now well understood to be a mistake, so is the mistake of underestimating the significant culturally mediated, socially organized, development of the psychological capacities of young children. How that defeats the Mathew effect remains the issue. One thing we can do is to try to avoid encouraging it when fooling ourselves into thinking that we are defeating it. See attached mike On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:47 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Michael and Anna: > > Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection > between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by > setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against > what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between > empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the > learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models > that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little > scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't > involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although > historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between > behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in > language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact > that we now have two very different communicative language teaching > methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps > behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which > jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) > there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the > theory of learning. > > Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of > "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to > me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So > what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of > preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I > thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free > will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote > about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the > link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly > see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a > native speaker of the English language. > > Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, > namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the > privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I > think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" > exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has > a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of > Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat > privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a > "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by > recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the > victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject > preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the > learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say > is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the > privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the > child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary > component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, > and not only to the underprivileged learner. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > ----------------------------------------- cut off by mike cole. check xmca for the rest of the thread minus the trailing >>s -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: deficit.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 301711 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140324/b6d10233/attachment.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 24 23:37:42 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 00:37:42 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <532F71F5.9080808@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <532F71F5.9080808@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, sorry for the delayed response. Like David, I think you've read my post against my intentions. My point was to locate Hegel and Bakhtin together so as to suggest that neither Bakhtin nor Hegel were childist. Quite the opposite. Still catching up. -greg On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature works, and I > sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the Young Hegel and was > "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I don't know much about Bakhtin. > > But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of subjectivity > to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to the Logic, or what he > has to say about education in the Philosophy of Right, or his Psychology in > the Philosophy of Spirit? One of the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the > fad (as he saw it) for wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel > thought this was liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this > impression, Greg? > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one trick pony... >> >> I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected by Hegel's >> concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same but the parallels are >> striking - one is consummated by the gaze of the other). >> And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary >> to the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I >> fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). >> >> I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences >> are of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And >> similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >> >> andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> David, >> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your parenthetical. My >> point was that >> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of >> creativity - i.e. >> the one where creativity is anti-social. >> >> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have difficulty >> imagining him >> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a >> topic of which I >> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I see him as >> drawing on a >> different understanding of human subjectivity - one that draws >> from a >> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the >> individual but >> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who >> is shot >> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:00 AM, David Kellogg >> > wrote: >> >> >> Greg-- >> >> Actually, I think of Vera's work as precisely the opposite >> of an >> anti-social theory of creativity (but perhaps that is just >> what you >> meant to say?). Vera's work on creative collaborations, >> for example, >> stresses that in and alongside every famous creative voice >> there is at >> least one and probably many more equally creative voices. >> It seems so >> obvious to me, when I read Tolstoy, that I am really >> hearing the voice >> of his wife, and not just when the female characters >> speak; I cannot >> be surprised that nothing he wrote after the crackup of >> his marriage >> measures up to War and Peace or Anna K. Of course, the >> social medium >> of art cannot be reduced to the interpersonal in this way; >> but I think >> Vera would say that the tragedy of our artists is that it >> often must >> be. >> >> Actually, reading over what I wrote, I discovered with >> some chagrin >> that, your kind comments to the contrary notwithstanding, >> it is not >> particularly well framed. As usual, I have left far too >> much daylight >> between the mounting and the canvas. The Halliday quote fits >> reasonably well but that is mostly thanks to him not me. >> But I meant >> to say that Bakhtin's ideas were being portrayed at the >> conference as >> being thoroughly "childist" and this childism was, >> according to many >> speakers (e.g. Eugene Matusov, Ana Marjanovic-Shane and >> others) what >> made Bakhtin preferable to Vygotsky (even though everybody >> has now >> admitted that Bakhtin was, personally, a bit of a >> scoundrel, not least >> for the way he treated HIS partners in dialogue, >> Voloshinov and >> Medvedev). >> >> This I found inexplicable. How can anyone read Bakhtin >> (who appears to >> have loathed children and who certainly wrote that child's >> play had >> neither a moral nor an aesthetic dimension) as a childist? >> But the >> comments of Mike and Andy, on how creativity is being set >> out as a >> kind of "Weak Utopianism" (to quote Michael Gardiner's >> phrase), make a >> certain sense of this nonsense. The collapse of the USSR >> is to be >> taken as a collapse of the cultural-historical in >> psychology as well. >> Henceforth, the social is to be reduced to the >> interpersonal, and the >> creative society to the clever society of one. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> On 23 March 2014 14:29, Greg Thompson >> > > wrote: >> >> David, >> Loved your framing of this as "Anti-social >> creativity". This is the model >> of creativity in much of the West! (cf. Vera >> John-Steiner's work). It's >> everywhere. Read that biography of Steve Jobs - wait, >> no don't do that... >> >> Also, fascinating (and sad) to hear about how >> capitalism is wrenching >> >> older >> >> workers in Korea. Sounds to me like "Abstract labor" >> concretized! (i.e., >> here is the concrete manifestation of "abstract labor" >> - labor viewed in >> the abstract - one worker is as good as another >> regardless of who that >> laborer is). >> >> Nothing is sacred with capitalism, seems another >> "Chinese wall" is >> crumbling under the weighty flow of global capital... >> >> Very sad (and I suspect that those older workers never >> knew what hit >> >> them - >> >> they certainly didn't expect it). >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 3:52 PM, David Kellogg >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> As you probably know, Korea is currently run by >> the neomilitaristic >> scion of the previous dictator, who took power in >> a transparently >> rigged election. No, I don't mean that Korea--I >> mean this one. >> >> Park Geunhye, the daughter of our former dictator >> Park Cheonghi, came >> to power about a year ago, first by stealing the >> opposition's clothes >> (to be fair, they made it very easy for her by >> having such a very >> unambitious programme to begin with). The National >> Intelligence >> Service then flooded the country with highly >> creative Tweets alleging >> that her opponents were soft on communism, one of >> those new >> mobilizations of social media that you may not >> have heard so much >> about. >> >> Anyway, to make a short story long, having stolen >> the opposition's >> clothes, she is now obliged to renege on her >> promises in the interests >> of those who financed her campaign. Now, part of >> this involves >> reneging on a massive programme of social welfare >> that Koreans >> desperately wanted (they deposed the mayor of >> Seoul in the interests >> of keeping a free lunch programme, for example). >> But surely, one must >> put something in the place of a promise of >> pensions, job creation >> schemes, minimum wage, etc, mustn't one? >> >> No, not really--all you have to do is babble and >> blather about a new >> "creativity-driven economy". The "creativity >> driven economy" is a >> pleasant way of referring to a highly unpleasant >> fact of life. In >> South Korea, where we nominally respect the >> elderly (and we certainly >> pay them more than the young) it soon becomes >> cheaper to employ four >> or five young people rather than one older one. >> This means, >> necessarily, booting out older workers around age >> fifty and hiring >> younger ones to replace them. The older workers >> (and, for that atter, >> younger ones who cannot find unemployment) are >> then given a little >> handout and encouraged to "create" their own jobs. >> >> Of course, for this to work (as a scam, I mean, >> it's obviously a >> non-starter as a social welfare scheme), one >> really has to try to >> inculcate the kind of "every man for himself" >> mentality that people >> have in other countries, and that is really a bit >> of a poser in a >> country which, although highly stratified >> socially, is still very >> collectivistic culturally. That is where education >> comes in. >> >> Consider the folllowing quotation from Halliday >> (2004, the Language of >> Early Childhood, p. 251): >> >> "Much of the discussion of chlidren's language >> development in the last >> quarter of a century (Halliday is writing in >> 1991--DK), especially in >> educational contexts, has been permeated by a >> particular ideological >> construction of childhood. This view combines >> individualism, >> romanticism, and what Martin calls 'childism', the >> Disneyfied vision >> of a child that is constructed in the media and in >> certain kinds of >> kiddielit. Each child is presented as a >> freestanding, autonomous >> being; and learning consists in releasing and >> brining into flower the >> latent awareness that is already there in the bud. >> This is the view >> that was embodied in the 'creativity' and >> 'personal growth' models of >> education by James Britton, John Dixon, and David >> Holbrook in Great >> Britain; and more recently, from another >> standpoint, in the United >> States in Donald Graves' conception of chldren's >> writing as process >> and of their texts as property to be individually >> owned. It has been >> supported theoretically first by Chomskyaninnatism >> and latterly by >> cognitive science models which interpret learning >> as the acquisition >> of ready0made information by some kind of >> independent process device." >> (I omit Halliday's references). >> >> My wife and I recently attended the Dialogic >> Pedagogy conference on >> Bakhtin in New Zealand where these "childist" >> ideas were very much in >> evidence, and where they were explicitly opposed >> to Vygotskyan ones! >> At first I found this opposition rather bizarre, >> not least because I >> had recently reviewed an excellent piece of work >> by our own >> Wolff-Michael Roth for the Dialogic Pedagogy >> Journal. Roth's piece, >> which you can read in the DPJ archive, had argued >> for the >> compatibility of Bakhtin and Vygotsky (on >> theoretical grounds it is >> true). There was also a very fine presentation by >> Michael Gardiner on >> Bakhtin, the autonomists, and the 99/1% discourse >> surrounding the >> Occupy movement. >> >> Now I am starting to understand a little better. >> There is, actually, a >> model of creativity out there which is >> individualistic, >> entrepreneurial, anti-socialist, and even >> anti-social. The problem is, >> it's also anti-creativity. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >> >> On 23 March 2014 04:26, Larry Purss >> > > wrote: >> >> Andy, >> Your comment: >> >> "Avram, I am not convinced that creating >> niche economies can in any >> >> way >> >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. We >> have to find a way to >> penetrate and subvert the sources of >> capitalist exploitation, rather >> >> than >> >> offering "alternatives," >> >> suggests there may be ways to potentially >> penetrate and subvert "at >> >> the >> >> source" rather than act to *create* alternatives. >> >> I have wondered if my utopian sympathies >> which show my curiosity with >> exploring *alternatives* can be viewed as >> *living experiments* or >> >> *living >> >> laboratories* where alternative life styles >> and attitudes are >> >> generated >> >> and >> >> lived. >> It must be my personal experiences with >> *alternate communities* which >> >> have >> >> attempted to actualize their ideal >> alternatives. I must admit, most of >> these experiments are failures. However >> Cultural Historical Theory >> developed in an *alternate setting* and Dewey >> and Mead in Chicago >> >> gathered >> >> together a committed group with shared ideals. >> >> In order to penetrate capitalism *at its >> source* may require >> >> demonstrating >> >> other ways of life as experiments which >> express other *values*. Some >> >> of >> >> these alternative approaches will include >> *alternative community*. >> >> The current discussion on the drift of >> *university departments* >> suggests alternative forms of gathering may >> need to come into >> >> existence >> >> to >> >> express alternative *values* However I also >> accept this *hope* may be >> >> na?ve >> >> and not grounded in recognition of the depth >> of capitalist ideology >> >> which >> >> co-ops ALL utopian ideals. Therefore the >> requirement to subvert the >> *source*? >> >> To once again return to Alex Kozulin's book >> which is expressing a >> >> theme. >> >> He is exploring the *double-faceted* nature >> of consciousness and >> >> suggests >> >> the >> >> "interpretive or metacognitive function >> [aspect?] of consciousness may >> >> have >> >> an AUTONOMY from REGULATIVE AND CONTROLLING >> functions. >> >> I wonder if this *autonomy* can extend to >> *alternative communities* >> >> forming >> >> to express alternative *values*? >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Andy Blunden >> > >> >> >> wrote: >> >> One of the themes of the correlation you >> mention, Mike, is the focus >> >> on >> >> "the creative industries." There are >> theories about the way cities >> >> can >> >> escape from their rust-bucket depression >> by promoting "the creative >> industries." These include software >> development (e.g. computer >> >> games), >> >> advertising, packaging and fashion. That's >> probably fine for urban >> >> renewal, >> >> except for the artists who get booted out >> of their old warehouses >> >> which >> >> get >> >> done up for the expected "creative >> industries," but where it's has a >> >> big >> >> negative impact in the academy is in the >> "critical sciences." People >> involved in social and political criticism >> are suddenly faced with >> imperatives to serve the "creative >> industries." So feminist, >> >> philosophical >> >> and political critiques, which were >> surviving by a thread, now have >> >> to >> >> educate software makers who are building >> computer games or artists >> >> who >> >> are >> >> designing advertisements all in the name >> of needing to support the >> "creative industries." >> >> Avram, I am not convinced that creating >> niche economies can in any >> >> way >> >> ameliorate the domination of big capital. >> We have to find a way to >> penetrate and subvert the sources of >> capitalist exploitation, rather >> >> than >> >> offering "alternatives," I think. >> Capitalism can do perfectly well >> >> without >> >> a certain percentage of the world's >> population who find an >> >> "alternative". >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >> So my noticing of the fascination and >> promotion of "culture and >> creativity" discourse, design schools, >> and neoliberalism may be more >> >> than a >> >> symptom of failing eyesight? >> Mike >> >> On Friday, March 21, 2014, Avram Rips >> > > >> arips@optonline.net >> >> wrote: >> >> The problem is the connection >> between people alienated from >> >> their >> >> labor, or no labor and building a >> new democratic structure- that >> can happen in a small scale , and >> spread out to new modes of >> production away from the >> destruction of capital-such as chiapas >> and taking over factories in >> Argentina. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> "Andy Blunden" < >> >> ablunden@mira.net > >> >> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, >> Activity" > >> >> Sent: Friday, March >> 21, 2014 8:35 AM >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class >> >> >> Yes, it seems to me that the >> burgeoning inequality created >> >> by >> >> neoliberalism is a situation >> crying out for imaginative >> >> social >> >> entrepreneurship, i.e., social >> movement building. It is good >> to hear that the 1/99 protests >> have generated talk about >> inequality, but that in itself >> does not create a solution, >> does it? >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Avram Rips wrote: >> >> Innovation and >> entrepreneurship in some ways means >> capital crowding out >> social space and solidarity. This >> >> is >> >> evident in cities-whole >> neighborhoods taken over by >> wealthy crafts people, and >> little focus on co-operative >> movements for working >> class people-where a new focus on >> participatory democracy >> can be developed ,and working >> class culture in the >> Gramscian sense. take care! Avram >> ----- Original Message >> ----- From: "mike cole" >> > > >> To: "Andy Blunden" >> > > >> >> Cc: "eXtended Mind, >> Culture, Activity" >> > > >> >> Sent: Friday, March 21, >> 2014 12:31 AM >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: >> poverty/class >> >> >> Andy--- My intent in >> the garbled sentence you query >> was to suggest that the >> discourse in the US >> around vicious inequalities has >> increased markedly in >> the past year in >> tandem with a kind of frenzy in >> >> those >> >> parts of academia I >> come in contact with >> about "design, culture, and >> creativity" all of which >> are linked to >> innovation and entrepreneurship. I >> >> very >> >> interested in the >> nature of imagination >> and creativity but I they >> >> often >> >> appear to be new code >> words for social and >> individual salvation in a lean, >> mean, neo-liberal >> world. >> >> Maybe just another of >> my confusions. >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 >> at 6:14 PM, Andy Blunden >> > > wrote: >> >> Mike, could you >> clarify a little your comment >> below ... >> >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> ------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> ... My fear >> that is appearance is >> >> non-accidentally rated to explosion of >> concern about >> poverty/class (the 1%/99% idea >> has become >> ubiquitous in >> American >> discourse). >> >> mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Tue Mar 25 00:07:34 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:07:34 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <532F71F5.9080808@mira.net> Message-ID: <53312B36.8040802@mira.net> Yes, as usual I was too quick to respond. It was the end of your first message which led me astray: is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but rather is about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). It was not obvious what the "pace" referred to. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > sorry for the delayed response. Like David, I think you've read my > post against my intentions. My point was to locate Hegel and Bakhtin > together so as to suggest that neither Bakhtin nor Hegel were > childist. Quite the opposite. > Still catching up. > -greg > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature > works, and I sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the > Young Hegel and was "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I > don't know much about Bakhtin. > > But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of > subjectivity to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to > the Logic, or what he has to say about education in the Philosophy > of Right, or his Psychology in the Philosophy of Spirit? One of > the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the fad (as he saw it) for > wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel thought this was > liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this impression, > Greg? > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > Andy, > > I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one > trick pony... > > I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected > by Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same > but the parallels are striking - one is consummated by the > gaze of the other). > And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is > fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity > which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot > of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). > > I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the > consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is > lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking > a more Vygotskian approach? > -greg > > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? > > andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > David, > Yes, you caught what I was saying in your > parenthetical. My > point was that > Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of > creativity - i.e. > the one where creativity is anti-social. > > And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have > difficulty > imagining him > as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a > topic of which I > had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I > see him as > drawing on a > different understanding of human subjectivity - one > that draws > from a > tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the > individual but > rather is about the imbricated emergence of an > individual who > is shot > through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). > > -greg > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Mar 25 09:03:19 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 09:03:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <53312B36.8040802@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <532F71F5.9080808@mira.net> <53312B36.8040802@mira.net> Message-ID: Greg, You pose a question in this comment and are selecting a possible path for us to follow: "And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach?" -greg Does this question relate to Andy wanting to explore the mis-readings of Hegel being interpreted AS ideal rather than AS RESPONSE to Kant's transcendental categorical Idealism. I wonder if Andy is suggesting THIS interpretation confuses a reading of Hegel which is already difficult enough to understand. Greg, is your "Kantian reading" of transcendental pre-existing INTRINSIC categories the souce of your *reading* Kant AS articulating an INTRINSIC childist THEORY OF *subjectivity* [and subjective knowledge]?? I will add the question which I understand Shotter is exploring as a realm of experience that is more INCLUSIVE than EITHER the transcendental or the traditional notion of *empirical* fact. Shotter refers to William James RADICAL empiricism as questioning DISCRETE essentialized substances in James proposal for returning to the lived experience of the *stream* of consciousness PRIOR TO [PRE-EXISTING] either the transcendental idealized subject OR empirical discrete FACTS. I read Shotter as exploring James realm of *lived experience* as pre-existing BOTH the transcendental subject AND objective discrete facts. Greg, to return to your question: "what is gained by taking a more Vygotskian approach?" and how does this approach overlap a Bahktinian approach? The concept of *lived experience* can be read on the one hand from within an INTRINSIC pre-existing transcendental - empirical fact *constellation* OR on the other hand the concept of *lived experience* can also be read from a communicative shared cultural historical community *constellation* How central is the notion of *lived experience* as a concept that is more inclusive and goes BEYOND the limits of BOTH transcendental egos AND discrete empirical *objective* FACTS? Larry On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, as usual I was too quick to respond. > It was the end of your first message which led me astray: > > > is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but rather is > about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot through > / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). > > It was not obvious what the "pace" referred to. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Andy, sorry for the delayed response. Like David, I think you've read my >> post against my intentions. My point was to locate Hegel and Bakhtin >> together so as to suggest that neither Bakhtin nor Hegel were childist. >> Quite the opposite. Still catching up. >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature >> works, and I sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the >> Young Hegel and was "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I >> don't know much about Bakhtin. >> >> But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of >> subjectivity to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to >> the Logic, or what he has to say about education in the Philosophy >> of Right, or his Psychology in the Philosophy of Spirit? One of >> the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the fad (as he saw it) for >> wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel thought this was >> liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this impression, >> Greg? >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Andy, >> >> I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one >> trick pony... >> >> I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected >> by Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same >> but the parallels are striking - one is consummated by the >> gaze of the other). >> And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is >> fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity >> which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot >> of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). >> >> I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the >> consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is >> lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking >> a more Vygotskian approach? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> wrote: >> >> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >> >> andy >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> David, >> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your >> parenthetical. My >> point was that >> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of >> creativity - i.e. >> the one where creativity is anti-social. >> >> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have >> difficulty >> imagining him >> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a >> topic of which I >> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I >> see him as >> drawing on a >> different understanding of human subjectivity - one >> that draws >> from a >> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the >> individual but >> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an >> individual who >> is shot >> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >> >> -greg >> >> >> > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 25 10:12:03 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:12:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <53312B36.8040802@mira.net> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <532F71F5.9080808@mira.net> <53312B36.8040802@mira.net> Message-ID: <791E9441-7C51-45F8-BC41-23D93ADB15B5@gmail.com> Yes, a little fast and loose in writing. I read Hegel as a theorist of subjectivity that is born out of interactions with others mediated by thirdness (ie culture). "Consummation" is bakhtins term. So I was suggesting that these are similar. I should add that this opposes a dominant reading of bakhtin's dialogism being opposed to hegels dialectic. But I have a hard time seeing how bakhtin's notion of consummation is anything other than a dialectic. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise... Haven't been able to look at the chapter in the book Martin sent (thanks Martin!). Greg Sent from my iPhone On Mar 25, 2014, at 1:07 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Yes, as usual I was too quick to respond. > It was the end of your first message which led me astray: > > is not about the intrinsic flowering of the individual but rather is > about the imbricated emergence of an individual who is shot through > / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). > > It was not obvious what the "pace" referred to. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: >> Andy, sorry for the delayed response. Like David, I think you've read my post against my intentions. My point was to locate Hegel and Bakhtin together so as to suggest that neither Bakhtin nor Hegel were childist. Quite the opposite. Still catching up. >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: >> >> Well, Hegel says very little about recognition in his mature >> works, and I sort of doubt that Bakhtin studied the works of the >> Young Hegel and was "influenced" or "inflected" by them, but I >> don't know much about Bakhtin. >> >> But I really don't know how you can connect Hegel's theory of >> subjectivity to "childism" I really don't. Are yo ureferring to >> the Logic, or what he has to say about education in the Philosophy >> of Right, or his Psychology in the Philosophy of Spirit? One of >> the bees Hegel had in his bonnet was the fad (as he saw it) for >> wanting children to "think for themselves". Hegel thought this was >> liberal silliness. What passage of Hegel gave you this impression, >> Greg? >> >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Andy, >> >> I fear that you are going to discover that I'm really a one >> trick pony... >> >> I read Bakhtin's notion of "consummation" as being inflected >> by Hegel's concept of recognition (it isn't exactly the same >> but the parallels are striking - one is consummated by the >> gaze of the other). >> And I think the Hegel's theory of subjectivity is >> fundamentally contrary to the childist theory of subjectivity >> which is more Kantian to my mind (I fear that may take a lot >> of explaining, but I'll leave it at that for now). >> >> I'd love to hear more from David about what he thinks the >> consequences are of taking on a childist approach. What is >> lost in that approach? And similarly, what is gained by taking >> a more Vygotskian approach? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:10 AM, Andy Blunden >> >> >> wrote: >> >> why do you say "pace Hegel" Greg? >> >> andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> David, >> Yes, you caught what I was saying in your >> parenthetical. My >> point was that >> Vera nicely lays out and critiques the dominant view of >> creativity - i.e. >> the one where creativity is anti-social. >> >> And I'd add that in my reading of Bakhtin, I have >> difficulty >> imagining him >> as a childist, not because of his disdain for children (a >> topic of which I >> had no knowledge prior to your post), but because I >> see him as >> drawing on a >> different understanding of human subjectivity - one >> that draws >> from a >> tradition that is not about the intrinsic flowering of the >> individual but >> rather is about the imbricated emergence of an >> individual who >> is shot >> through / consummated by others. (pace Hegel, imho). >> >> -greg > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Mar 25 17:11:25 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:11:25 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Mike-- Thanks for the article.The ideas are not completely new to me; even the link with the great anthropological tradition in linguistics of Sapir, Whorf and Boas that joins you to Halliday is something I have heard you articulate many times. But they are presented more forcefully than ever, and the tie to Bruner is quite new (I had always thought of Bruner as a wartime social behaviorist, centrally responsible for the distortions of the "scaffolding" reading of Vygotsky). Labov is also in that great tradition. I have enormous respect for him, not least because, like you and quite unlike me, he is STILL doing important work in the inner cities, teaching kids to read and write. His work on the grammar of AAVE seems like a waystage between Hymes on the one hand and Heath on the other. But like so many of that great tradition in linguistics, his strength is empirical strength and not theoretical strength. Take his famous paper on narrative structure: these are categories which emerge from and are largely confined to the data. His reading of Bernstein hopelessly shallow; he just cannot take on board the whole argument about the strong and weak ways of framing knowledge, and as a result he ends up with a caricature rather than a fair understanding. (Ruqaiya Hasan notes, correctly, that Labov barely bothers to cite Bernstein!) Yes, I too have trouble with what you call the extreme forms of Bernstein's theory (although I note that for the most part they are not really Bernstein's). By the time children are in middle school, they don't really talk like their parents any more; they talk like each other. But I am willing to accept that by the time they get to middle school, it may be too late; language development consists of many roads not taken (how way leads on way!). My wife complains that the Korean system (and of course the Chinese system too) is unforgiving; the child takes the college entrance examination at the end of high school and the child's fate is sealed. This is not strictly true (she herself took the exam four times and eventually got in). But even if it were true, that would make it a system that is rather less unforgiving than the American one. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 25 March 2014 10:06, mike cole wrote: > David-- > > I want strongly to agree with you and Michael that > > we all know that privileged genres privilege the > privileged, but the question is what to do about it > > That is, the rich get richer aka the "Mathew effect" - to s/he who has be > given." > > I am still considering with the notion that "childism" equals pre-formism. > Just as pushing the bernsteinian codes to extremes is now well understood > to be a mistake, so is the mistake of underestimating the significant > culturally mediated, socially organized, development of the psychological > capacities of young children. > > How that defeats the Mathew effect remains the issue. > > One thing we can do is to try to avoid encouraging it when fooling > ourselves into thinking that we are defeating it. > > See attached > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:47 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Michael and Anna: >> >> Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection >> between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by >> setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against >> what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between >> empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the >> learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models >> that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little >> scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't >> involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although >> historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between >> behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in >> language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact >> that we now have two very different communicative language teaching >> methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps >> behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which >> jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) >> there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the >> theory of learning. >> >> Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of >> "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to >> me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So >> what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of >> preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I >> thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free >> will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote >> about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the >> link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly >> see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a >> native speaker of the English language. >> >> Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, >> namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the >> privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I >> think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" >> exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has >> a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of >> Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat >> privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a >> "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by >> recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the >> victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject >> preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the >> learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say >> is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the >> privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the >> child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary >> component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, >> and not only to the underprivileged learner. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> ----------------------------------------- > cut off by mike cole. check xmca for the rest of the thread minus the > trailing >>>s From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 25 21:33:12 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:33:12 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: And speaking of Bill Labov's impressive work (empirically speaking), his step-daughter, Alice Goffman, has done some really amazing ethnographic work of criminalized young black men in inner-city Philadelphia, with a particular eye to how the criminal justice system functions to tear apart families. Based on 6 years of ethnographic fieldwork, here is a link to her new book "On the Run: Fugitive Life in an American City" (soon-to-be-out): http://www.amazon.com/On-Run-Fieldwork-Encounters-Discoveries/dp/022613671X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395807492&sr=8-1&keywords=alice+goffman Alice is an incredible ethnographer and a wonderful person, and for any interested in these issues, this book promises to be a very candid look into some very complex issues. (although I haven't read the book yet, I saw her give a talk a few years back and have read some of her work and talked a bit with her about her book as well). Sorry for the digression, but hopefully not too digressive. -greg On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 6:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike-- > > Thanks for the article.The ideas are not completely new to me; even > the link with the great anthropological tradition in linguistics of > Sapir, Whorf and Boas that joins you to Halliday is something I have > heard you articulate many times. But they are presented more > forcefully than ever, and the tie to Bruner is quite new (I had always > thought of Bruner as a wartime social behaviorist, centrally > responsible for the distortions of the "scaffolding" reading of > Vygotsky). > > Labov is also in that great tradition. I have enormous respect for > him, not least because, like you and quite unlike me, he is STILL > doing important work in the inner cities, teaching kids to read and > write. His work on the grammar of AAVE seems like a waystage between > Hymes on the one hand and Heath on the other. But like so many of that > great tradition in linguistics, his strength is empirical strength and > not theoretical strength. > > Take his famous paper on narrative structure: these are categories > which emerge from and are largely confined to the data. His reading of > Bernstein hopelessly shallow; he just cannot take on board the whole > argument about the strong and weak ways of framing knowledge, and as a > result he ends up with a caricature rather than a fair understanding. > (Ruqaiya Hasan notes, correctly, that Labov barely bothers to cite > Bernstein!) > > Yes, I too have trouble with what you call the extreme forms of > Bernstein's theory (although I note that for the most part they are > not really Bernstein's). By the time children are in middle school, > they don't really talk like their parents any more; they talk like > each other. But I am willing to accept that by the time they get to > middle school, it may be too late; language development consists of > many roads not taken (how way leads on way!). > > My wife complains that the Korean system (and of course the Chinese > system too) is unforgiving; the child takes the college entrance > examination at the end of high school and the child's fate is sealed. > This is not strictly true (she herself took the exam four times and > eventually got in). But even if it were true, that would make it a > system that is rather less unforgiving than the American one. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 25 March 2014 10:06, mike cole wrote: > > David-- > > > > I want strongly to agree with you and Michael that > > > > we all know that privileged genres privilege the > > privileged, but the question is what to do about it > > > > That is, the rich get richer aka the "Mathew effect" - to s/he who has be > > given." > > > > I am still considering with the notion that "childism" equals > pre-formism. > > Just as pushing the bernsteinian codes to extremes is now well understood > > to be a mistake, so is the mistake of underestimating the significant > > culturally mediated, socially organized, development of the psychological > > capacities of young children. > > > > How that defeats the Mathew effect remains the issue. > > > > One thing we can do is to try to avoid encouraging it when fooling > > ourselves into thinking that we are defeating it. > > > > See attached > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:47 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > >> Michael and Anna: > >> > >> Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection > >> between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by > >> setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against > >> what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between > >> empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the > >> learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models > >> that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little > >> scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't > >> involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although > >> historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between > >> behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in > >> language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact > >> that we now have two very different communicative language teaching > >> methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps > >> behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which > >> jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) > >> there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the > >> theory of learning. > >> > >> Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of > >> "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to > >> me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So > >> what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of > >> preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I > >> thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free > >> will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote > >> about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the > >> link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly > >> see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a > >> native speaker of the English language. > >> > >> Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, > >> namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the > >> privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I > >> think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" > >> exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has > >> a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of > >> Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat > >> privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a > >> "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by > >> recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the > >> victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject > >> preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the > >> learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say > >> is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the > >> privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the > >> child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary > >> component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, > >> and not only to the underprivileged learner. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> ----------------------------------------- > > cut off by mike cole. check xmca for the rest of the thread minus the > > trailing > >>>s > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Mar 25 21:42:50 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:42:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: David, your earlier comment about Bernstein seems to suggest that one thing that we can do is to "pull back the curtain of ideology", so to speak. That is, to demonstrate the problematic nature of the notion that the deficit lies within the individual and instead to shine a light on the system within which a deficit is made into a deficit (Mcdermott and Varenne come to mind here as having done exemplary work of this sort). That seems to me to be a useful direction to push things. And one that I would think Mike would be in support of. Mike? And yet, the cynic in me hears Slavoj Zizek whispering in my ear (okay, SHOUTING, and with a fair degree of spittle - Zizek never whispers!) that revealing ideologies in this way has done little to change the way people engage with those ideologies. The only difference is that people now ironically engage with the ideologies that have been revealed as such. But those ideologies maintain all the force that they have ever had. But I don't like to be cynical. -greg On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 6:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike-- > > Thanks for the article.The ideas are not completely new to me; even > the link with the great anthropological tradition in linguistics of > Sapir, Whorf and Boas that joins you to Halliday is something I have > heard you articulate many times. But they are presented more > forcefully than ever, and the tie to Bruner is quite new (I had always > thought of Bruner as a wartime social behaviorist, centrally > responsible for the distortions of the "scaffolding" reading of > Vygotsky). > > Labov is also in that great tradition. I have enormous respect for > him, not least because, like you and quite unlike me, he is STILL > doing important work in the inner cities, teaching kids to read and > write. His work on the grammar of AAVE seems like a waystage between > Hymes on the one hand and Heath on the other. But like so many of that > great tradition in linguistics, his strength is empirical strength and > not theoretical strength. > > Take his famous paper on narrative structure: these are categories > which emerge from and are largely confined to the data. His reading of > Bernstein hopelessly shallow; he just cannot take on board the whole > argument about the strong and weak ways of framing knowledge, and as a > result he ends up with a caricature rather than a fair understanding. > (Ruqaiya Hasan notes, correctly, that Labov barely bothers to cite > Bernstein!) > > Yes, I too have trouble with what you call the extreme forms of > Bernstein's theory (although I note that for the most part they are > not really Bernstein's). By the time children are in middle school, > they don't really talk like their parents any more; they talk like > each other. But I am willing to accept that by the time they get to > middle school, it may be too late; language development consists of > many roads not taken (how way leads on way!). > > My wife complains that the Korean system (and of course the Chinese > system too) is unforgiving; the child takes the college entrance > examination at the end of high school and the child's fate is sealed. > This is not strictly true (she herself took the exam four times and > eventually got in). But even if it were true, that would make it a > system that is rather less unforgiving than the American one. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 25 March 2014 10:06, mike cole wrote: > > David-- > > > > I want strongly to agree with you and Michael that > > > > we all know that privileged genres privilege the > > privileged, but the question is what to do about it > > > > That is, the rich get richer aka the "Mathew effect" - to s/he who has be > > given." > > > > I am still considering with the notion that "childism" equals > pre-formism. > > Just as pushing the bernsteinian codes to extremes is now well understood > > to be a mistake, so is the mistake of underestimating the significant > > culturally mediated, socially organized, development of the psychological > > capacities of young children. > > > > How that defeats the Mathew effect remains the issue. > > > > One thing we can do is to try to avoid encouraging it when fooling > > ourselves into thinking that we are defeating it. > > > > See attached > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:47 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > >> Michael and Anna: > >> > >> Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection > >> between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by > >> setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against > >> what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between > >> empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the > >> learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models > >> that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little > >> scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't > >> involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although > >> historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between > >> behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in > >> language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact > >> that we now have two very different communicative language teaching > >> methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps > >> behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which > >> jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) > >> there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the > >> theory of learning. > >> > >> Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of > >> "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to > >> me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So > >> what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of > >> preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I > >> thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free > >> will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote > >> about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the > >> link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly > >> see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a > >> native speaker of the English language. > >> > >> Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, > >> namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the > >> privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I > >> think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" > >> exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has > >> a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of > >> Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat > >> privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a > >> "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by > >> recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the > >> victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject > >> preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the > >> learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say > >> is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the > >> privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the > >> child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary > >> component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, > >> and not only to the underprivileged learner. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> ----------------------------------------- > > cut off by mike cole. check xmca for the rest of the thread minus the > > trailing > >>>s > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Mar 25 22:15:19 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:15:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Seems to me that "unmasking" is an important part of the process of inquiry, Greg. But like Zizek it seems insufficient to me. And, perhaps like Zizek, I believe that in the big world, such unmasking ordinarily does little to change existing structures of power that can suture over the gaps. The case of Labov is exemplary in this regard. He has bravely and energetically created alternatives that real people can use and, to some extent, demonstrated their value (I know of know comparative studies of his reading curriculum versus the normal procedures, but I doubt their adoption widely even if demonstrated effective.They presupposed difference not deficit. In my own work I try in my limited way to engage in both critique and attempts to demonstrate the feasibility of alternatives. And then try to make those alternatives endure. And in the process find out how things are more complicated than you thought. It has been pointed out to me in a side note that even in adopting the notion of ASD used in the papers I was using as the excuse to comment, the notion of Disorder implies deficit. Seems he is right. Apropos....... if anyone has not seen it, check out "may's miracle" on youtube. mike On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > David, your earlier comment about Bernstein seems to suggest that one > thing that we can do is to "pull back the curtain of ideology", so to > speak. That is, to demonstrate the problematic nature of the notion that > the deficit lies within the individual and instead to shine a light on the > system within which a deficit is made into a deficit (Mcdermott and Varenne > come to mind here as having done exemplary work of this sort). That seems > to me to be a useful direction to push things. And one that I would think > Mike would be in support of. > Mike? > > And yet, the cynic in me hears Slavoj Zizek whispering in my ear (okay, > SHOUTING, and with a fair degree of spittle - Zizek never whispers!) that > revealing ideologies in this way has done little to change the way people > engage with those ideologies. The only difference is that people now > ironically engage with the ideologies that have been revealed as such. But > those ideologies maintain all the force that they have ever had. > > But I don't like to be cynical. > > -greg > > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 6:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Mike-- >> >> Thanks for the article.The ideas are not completely new to me; even >> the link with the great anthropological tradition in linguistics of >> Sapir, Whorf and Boas that joins you to Halliday is something I have >> heard you articulate many times. But they are presented more >> forcefully than ever, and the tie to Bruner is quite new (I had always >> thought of Bruner as a wartime social behaviorist, centrally >> responsible for the distortions of the "scaffolding" reading of >> Vygotsky). >> >> Labov is also in that great tradition. I have enormous respect for >> him, not least because, like you and quite unlike me, he is STILL >> doing important work in the inner cities, teaching kids to read and >> write. His work on the grammar of AAVE seems like a waystage between >> Hymes on the one hand and Heath on the other. But like so many of that >> great tradition in linguistics, his strength is empirical strength and >> not theoretical strength. >> >> Take his famous paper on narrative structure: these are categories >> which emerge from and are largely confined to the data. His reading of >> Bernstein hopelessly shallow; he just cannot take on board the whole >> argument about the strong and weak ways of framing knowledge, and as a >> result he ends up with a caricature rather than a fair understanding. >> (Ruqaiya Hasan notes, correctly, that Labov barely bothers to cite >> Bernstein!) >> >> Yes, I too have trouble with what you call the extreme forms of >> Bernstein's theory (although I note that for the most part they are >> not really Bernstein's). By the time children are in middle school, >> they don't really talk like their parents any more; they talk like >> each other. But I am willing to accept that by the time they get to >> middle school, it may be too late; language development consists of >> many roads not taken (how way leads on way!). >> >> My wife complains that the Korean system (and of course the Chinese >> system too) is unforgiving; the child takes the college entrance >> examination at the end of high school and the child's fate is sealed. >> This is not strictly true (she herself took the exam four times and >> eventually got in). But even if it were true, that would make it a >> system that is rather less unforgiving than the American one. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> On 25 March 2014 10:06, mike cole wrote: >> > David-- >> > >> > I want strongly to agree with you and Michael that >> > >> > we all know that privileged genres privilege the >> > privileged, but the question is what to do about it >> > >> > That is, the rich get richer aka the "Mathew effect" - to s/he who has >> be >> > given." >> > >> > I am still considering with the notion that "childism" equals >> pre-formism. >> > Just as pushing the bernsteinian codes to extremes is now well >> understood >> > to be a mistake, so is the mistake of underestimating the significant >> > culturally mediated, socially organized, development of the >> psychological >> > capacities of young children. >> > >> > How that defeats the Mathew effect remains the issue. >> > >> > One thing we can do is to try to avoid encouraging it when fooling >> > ourselves into thinking that we are defeating it. >> > >> > See attached >> > mike >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:47 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> > >> >> Michael and Anna: >> >> >> >> Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection >> >> between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by >> >> setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against >> >> what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between >> >> empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the >> >> learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models >> >> that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little >> >> scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't >> >> involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although >> >> historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between >> >> behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in >> >> language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact >> >> that we now have two very different communicative language teaching >> >> methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps >> >> behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which >> >> jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) >> >> there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the >> >> theory of learning. >> >> >> >> Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of >> >> "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to >> >> me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So >> >> what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of >> >> preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I >> >> thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free >> >> will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote >> >> about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the >> >> link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly >> >> see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a >> >> native speaker of the English language. >> >> >> >> Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, >> >> namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the >> >> privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I >> >> think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" >> >> exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has >> >> a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of >> >> Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat >> >> privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a >> >> "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by >> >> recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the >> >> victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject >> >> preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the >> >> learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say >> >> is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the >> >> privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the >> >> child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary >> >> component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, >> >> and not only to the underprivileged learner. >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> > cut off by mike cole. check xmca for the rest of the thread minus the >> > trailing >> >>>s >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From smago@uga.edu Wed Mar 26 04:47:17 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:47:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: FW: Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <45ef5f0b717441179354372dfd276804@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I wrote Mike the following note offlist, and he suggested I send it to the group: On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky > wrote: Hi Mike, I'm responding off-list to the article you sent. I make the following observation with the awareness that I have to police my own discursive representations of people of difference because it can be hard to break away from so much social and discursive conditioning. On p. 89, after working hard to challenge deficit perspectives on difference, you refer to "the issue of neurodevelopmental disorder such as ASD," a term you repeat just before the subhead. To me, the term "disorder" indicates deficit, rather than what I think of as a different order. I also think you're locating the problems that follow from being different in the individual, rather than in the society that makes a deficit judgment of difference (LSV on defectology being channeled here). Just wanted to alert you to what I see as an inconsistency in your phrasing and thus perhaps thinking. Best,Peter I view LSV's work on defectology to be a sadly overlooked aspect of his research. I neglected it too for nearly two decades until I began writing about mental health and found it remarkably useful. Others have written nice summaries of his contributions (a chapter, e.g., in the Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky). I'll provide links to what I've written in case anyone's interested in seeing why I find it so compelling, and why I find it well suited for adaptation to 21st century mental health issues. Smagorinsky, P. (2012). Vygotsky, "defectology," and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural stream. Journal of Language and Literacy Education [Online], 8(1), 1-25. Available at http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Vygotsky-and-Defectology.pdf Smagorinsky, P. (2012). "Every individual has his own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and Social Interaction, 1(1), 67-77. Available at http://www.petersmagorinsky.net/About/PDF/LCSI/LCSI_2012.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 07:34:39 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:34:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory Message-ID: Donna's article is asking us to examine the possible unintended consequences of promoting a "collaborative" model of classroom engagement as possibly promoting a [mis]alignment of interactive AND reflexive positioning in group process. One comment that jumped out was the observation that in EVERY collaborative group observed ONE participant was [mis]aligned in the group process. My question is if each [mis]aligned participant was asked to re-form within a new collaborative grouping would the same dynamic occur? Would Mitchell possibly [re]align and become a *productive* participant who aligns with the *task* while one of the participants would continue to be [mis]aligned?? This phenomena that in EVERY collaborative grouping there was a [mis]alignment leads to a question if this would same dynamic is playing out in other classroom settings? At the end of the article the conclusion offered that persons should have a *choice* to participate or withdraw from engaging in the collaborative process and either work alone or with others also expresses a particular *value* position. When [mis]aligned with the other participants through engaging in a process of *individual* reflection one *ought* to have the *choice* to withdraw. Could this *answer* also possibly lead to unintended consequences? A few months ago there was an article on positioning within a kindergarten classroom. The question asked was if there should be a *rule* or *principle* that one cannot say "You cannot play with us?" This rule promotes an alternative *value* position. The article described how the central discursive dynamic was exploring if there were any *exceptions* to this rule? The question whether this rule should *stand* and become a standpoint for how we position each other was left as an *open question* which could never have a final answer. However the *interactive* AND *reflexive* alignment and [mis]alighnent was very fluid and more like a *stream* of positioning to be negotiated. From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Wed Mar 26 08:17:11 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:17:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5332B737.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Thanks, Larry for starting the discussion. It's useful to think about our own experiences in group work. My research results surprised me. However, I shouldn't have been surprised. My own personal experiences working in groups are similar to those that I observed with the students. Some people do very little and are permitted to very little. Others do very little and are taken to task for doing very little. The main question this paper raises is why it okay for some to do very little and not for others? What are the outcomes of persistent positioning? There is a productive component that should be of concern to educators. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/26/2014 at 10:34 AM, in message , Larry Purss wrote: Donna's article is asking us to examine the possible unintended consequences of promoting a "collaborative" model of classroom engagement as possibly promoting a [mis]alignment of interactive AND reflexive positioning in group process. One comment that jumped out was the observation that in EVERY collaborative group observed ONE participant was [mis]aligned in the group process. My question is if each [mis]aligned participant was asked to re-form within a new collaborative grouping would the same dynamic occur? Would Mitchell possibly [re]align and become a *productive* participant who aligns with the *task* while one of the participants would continue to be [mis]aligned?? This phenomena that in EVERY collaborative grouping there was a [mis]alignment leads to a question if this would same dynamic is playing out in other classroom settings? At the end of the article the conclusion offered that persons should have a *choice* to participate or withdraw from engaging in the collaborative process and either work alone or with others also expresses a particular *value* position. When [mis]aligned with the other participants through engaging in a process of *individual* reflection one *ought* to have the *choice* to withdraw. Could this *answer* also possibly lead to unintended consequences? A few months ago there was an article on positioning within a kindergarten classroom. The question asked was if there should be a *rule* or *principle* that one cannot say "You cannot play with us?" This rule promotes an alternative *value* position. The article described how the central discursive dynamic was exploring if there were any *exceptions* to this rule? The question whether this rule should *stand* and become a standpoint for how we position each other was left as an *open question* which could never have a final answer. However the *interactive* AND *reflexive* alignment and [mis]alighnent was very fluid and more like a *stream* of positioning to be negotiated. From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Wed Mar 26 08:24:38 2014 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:24:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5332B737.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <5332B737.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: I'm not sure if you are referring to Paley's, "You can't say you can't play," but I appreciate that perspective, Larry. You've offered several important points to the dialogue, from the idea that this happens more often than not, to the idea that we really need to practice collaborative group work, to the option of opting out as having unintended consequences ... Donna highlighted for us below that there are outcomes that can be quite serious from this positioning ... >From my experience, it was only when I asked students explicitly to take responsibility for the voices of their peers that I made any headway with balancing positioning in groups ... and this was with uni students ... can we ask the same of younger children? ... both that some be more responsible to share their ideas and other be more responsible to listen and discuss? Best to all - jen On 2014-03-26, at 8:17 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks, Larry for starting the discussion. > > It's useful to think about our own experiences in group work. My research results surprised me. However, I shouldn't have been surprised. My own personal experiences working in groups are similar to those that I observed with the students. Some people do very little and are permitted to very little. Others do very little and are taken to task for doing very little. The main question this paper raises is why it okay for some to do very little and not for others? What are the outcomes of persistent positioning? There is a productive component that should be of concern to educators. > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>> On 3/26/2014 at 10:34 AM, in message , Larry Purss wrote: > > Donna's article is asking us to examine the possible unintended > consequences of promoting a "collaborative" model of classroom engagement > as possibly promoting a [mis]alignment of interactive AND reflexive > positioning in group process. > > One comment that jumped out was the observation that in EVERY collaborative > group observed ONE participant was [mis]aligned in the group process. My > question is if each [mis]aligned participant was asked to re-form within a > new collaborative grouping would the same dynamic occur? Would Mitchell > possibly [re]align and become a *productive* participant who aligns with > the *task* while one of the participants would continue to be [mis]aligned?? > This phenomena that in EVERY collaborative grouping there was a > [mis]alignment leads to a question if this would same dynamic is playing > out in other classroom settings? > > At the end of the article the conclusion offered that persons should have a > *choice* to participate or withdraw from engaging in the collaborative > process and either work alone or with others also expresses a particular > *value* position. When [mis]aligned with the other participants through > engaging in a process of *individual* reflection one *ought* to have the > *choice* to withdraw. > Could this *answer* also possibly lead to unintended consequences? > > A few months ago there was an article on positioning within a kindergarten > classroom. The question asked was if there should be a *rule* or > *principle* that one cannot say "You cannot play with us?" > This rule promotes an alternative *value* position. The article described > how the central discursive dynamic was exploring if there were any > *exceptions* to this rule? The question whether this rule should *stand* > and become a standpoint for how we position each other was left as an *open > question* which could never have a final answer. However the *interactive* > AND *reflexive* alignment and [mis]alighnent was very fluid and more like a > *stream* of positioning to be negotiated. From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 09:13:49 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:13:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <5332B737.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Donna, Jennifer Yes, it was Paley's expression "you cant' say you can't play" that I was exploring as an EXPLICIT *value position* that can be contested as not valuing individual choice. Jennifer, your extending this *rule* with your observation "From my experience, it was only when I asked students EXPLICITLY to take responsibility for the voices of their peers that I made any headway with balancing positioning in groups" also points to the ongoing negotiation and *shared reflection* of the reality of positioning AS EXPRESSING OUR VOICES. As a counsellor who explores issues of *belonging* and *friendship" the issue of *developing caring* is another way into this conversation. I sense that until a student actually EXPERIENCES [as felt movement of vulnerability and trust] caring for another that the discussion ABOUT caring is not productive. Helping another to *find and express their personal voice* is exploring this theme of FELT VITALITY as lived experience prior to our understanding ABOUT caring as a conceptual *reality*. Donna, your question why it is OK for some participants to not engage in productive activity and continue to *feel* a sense of belonging as a participating member while other participants are actively excluded and constrained from participating is an interesting question which may relate to issues of *voice* AS *felt tendency*. I have tried to imagine seriously engaging with Paley's statement and if it would transgress our value of *individual reflective choice* to EXPLICITLY engage with the alternative value which questions individual choice in the *rule* "You can't say you can't play" The emphasis on EXPLICITLY developing a value position that encourages each of us to help others *find voice* seems to be a possible answer* to Donna's question. Larry On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: > I'm not sure if you are referring to Paley's, "You can't say you can't > play," but I appreciate that perspective, Larry. You've offered several > important points to the dialogue, from the idea that this happens more > often than not, to the idea that we really need to practice collaborative > group work, to the option of opting out as having unintended consequences > ... > > Donna highlighted for us below that there are outcomes that can be quite > serious from this positioning ... > > >From my experience, it was only when I asked students explicitly to take > responsibility for the voices of their peers that I made any headway with > balancing positioning in groups ... and this was with uni students ... can > we ask the same of younger children? ... both that some be more responsible > to share their ideas and other be more responsible to listen and discuss? > > Best to all - jen > > > > > On 2014-03-26, at 8:17 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > > Thanks, Larry for starting the discussion. > > > > It's useful to think about our own experiences in group work. My > research results surprised me. However, I shouldn't have been surprised. My > own personal experiences working in groups are similar to those that I > observed with the students. Some people do very little and are permitted to > very little. Others do very little and are taken to task for doing very > little. The main question this paper raises is why it okay for some to do > very little and not for others? What are the outcomes of persistent > positioning? There is a productive component that should be of concern to > educators. > > > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > > Wilfrid Laurier University > > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>>> On 3/26/2014 at 10:34 AM, in message < > CAGaCnpzXMnauz79g2UvazmCudyU7y56cLUguC9wrpQXnYBTwig@mail.gmail.com>, > Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Donna's article is asking us to examine the possible unintended > > consequences of promoting a "collaborative" model of classroom engagement > > as possibly promoting a [mis]alignment of interactive AND reflexive > > positioning in group process. > > > > One comment that jumped out was the observation that in EVERY > collaborative > > group observed ONE participant was [mis]aligned in the group process. My > > question is if each [mis]aligned participant was asked to re-form within > a > > new collaborative grouping would the same dynamic occur? Would Mitchell > > possibly [re]align and become a *productive* participant who aligns with > > the *task* while one of the participants would continue to be > [mis]aligned?? > > This phenomena that in EVERY collaborative grouping there was a > > [mis]alignment leads to a question if this would same dynamic is playing > > out in other classroom settings? > > > > At the end of the article the conclusion offered that persons should > have a > > *choice* to participate or withdraw from engaging in the collaborative > > process and either work alone or with others also expresses a particular > > *value* position. When [mis]aligned with the other participants through > > engaging in a process of *individual* reflection one *ought* to have > the > > *choice* to withdraw. > > Could this *answer* also possibly lead to unintended consequences? > > > > A few months ago there was an article on positioning within a > kindergarten > > classroom. The question asked was if there should be a *rule* or > > *principle* that one cannot say "You cannot play with us?" > > This rule promotes an alternative *value* position. The article described > > how the central discursive dynamic was exploring if there were any > > *exceptions* to this rule? The question whether this rule should *stand* > > and become a standpoint for how we position each other was left as an > *open > > question* which could never have a final answer. However the > *interactive* > > AND *reflexive* alignment and [mis]alighnent was very fluid and more > like a > > *stream* of positioning to be negotiated. > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 10:35:02 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:35:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <45ef5f0b717441179354372dfd276804@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: On 26 March 2014 11:47, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I wrote Mike the following note offlist, and he suggested I send it to the > group: > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > Hi Mike, I'm responding off-list to the article you sent. I make the > following observation with the awareness that I have to police my own > discursive representations of people of difference because it can be hard > to break away from so much social and discursive conditioning. > > On p. 89, after working hard to challenge deficit perspectives on > difference, you refer to "the issue of neurodevelopmental disorder such as > ASD," a term you repeat just before the subhead. To me, the term "disorder" > indicates deficit, rather than what I think of as a different order. I also > think you're locating the problems that follow from being different in the > individual, rather than in the society that makes a deficit judgment of > difference (LSV on defectology being channeled here). > > Just wanted to alert you to what I see as an inconsistency in your > phrasing and thus perhaps thinking. Best,Peter > Peter and all, I doubt anyone on this list will fail to appreciate the potential harm in the label "disorder". This may be doubly true if the syndrome has its own order! Where we might draw our lines of inquiry, however, is whether we should iron out such lexical defects or whether we should leave them in to remind us of the relativity and context of their use. That is, should we treat our (lexical) "defects" as defects or differences? For example, is it not the case that the advantage of the "mathew effect" is also a dis-advantage? As an example of the dis-advantage Mathew is also cited as saying that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" [1]. Now, personally, I perceive "defects" in this quotation. However, to me, they are "useful defects" because I have some knowledge of why I think they are defects. Best, Huw [1] http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 10:35:02 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:35:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <45ef5f0b717441179354372dfd276804@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: On 26 March 2014 11:47, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I wrote Mike the following note offlist, and he suggested I send it to the > group: > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > Hi Mike, I'm responding off-list to the article you sent. I make the > following observation with the awareness that I have to police my own > discursive representations of people of difference because it can be hard > to break away from so much social and discursive conditioning. > > On p. 89, after working hard to challenge deficit perspectives on > difference, you refer to "the issue of neurodevelopmental disorder such as > ASD," a term you repeat just before the subhead. To me, the term "disorder" > indicates deficit, rather than what I think of as a different order. I also > think you're locating the problems that follow from being different in the > individual, rather than in the society that makes a deficit judgment of > difference (LSV on defectology being channeled here). > > Just wanted to alert you to what I see as an inconsistency in your > phrasing and thus perhaps thinking. Best,Peter > Peter and all, I doubt anyone on this list will fail to appreciate the potential harm in the label "disorder". This may be doubly true if the syndrome has its own order! Where we might draw our lines of inquiry, however, is whether we should iron out such lexical defects or whether we should leave them in to remind us of the relativity and context of their use. That is, should we treat our (lexical) "defects" as defects or differences? For example, is it not the case that the advantage of the "mathew effect" is also a dis-advantage? As an example of the dis-advantage Mathew is also cited as saying that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" [1]. Now, personally, I perceive "defects" in this quotation. However, to me, they are "useful defects" because I have some knowledge of why I think they are defects. Best, Huw [1] http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm From smago@uga.edu Wed Mar 26 11:14:55 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:14:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <45ef5f0b717441179354372dfd276804@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <4e9bb93639f6419a9fc6b44a38c4d118@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I don't quite have the luxury of time to address all of Huw's points, but on the Matthew Effect: It is absolutely employed to reinforce deficit views. In the US it's often employed to characterize what are believed to be the "poor" vocabularies of impoverished urban youth, especially those who are African American--the argument goes, These kids start out disadvantaged with poor vocabularies, and this deficit leads them to fall further and further behind in school. The overlooked phenomenon concerns the way in which vocabulary is determined, often through vocabulary studies based on acquaintance with the kinds of vocabulary words used in school assessment. They learn plenty of words very useful to them in home and community, but not recognized as "the right" sort of words in school and school assessment. Thus, vocabulary development does indeed diverge, but what measurement finds is that this divergence represents an absence, because they only measure one cultural vocabulary. See https://www.google.com/search?q=matthew+effect+urban+children+vocabulary&oq=matthew+effect+urban+children+vocabulary&aqs=chrome..69i57.9327j0j9&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class On 26 March 2014 11:47, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I wrote Mike the following note offlist, and he suggested I send it to > the > group: > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > Hi Mike, I'm responding off-list to the article you sent. I make the > following observation with the awareness that I have to police my own > discursive representations of people of difference because it can be > hard to break away from so much social and discursive conditioning. > > On p. 89, after working hard to challenge deficit perspectives on > difference, you refer to "the issue of neurodevelopmental disorder > such as ASD," a term you repeat just before the subhead. To me, the term "disorder" > indicates deficit, rather than what I think of as a different order. I > also think you're locating the problems that follow from being > different in the individual, rather than in the society that makes a > deficit judgment of difference (LSV on defectology being channeled here). > > Just wanted to alert you to what I see as an inconsistency in your > phrasing and thus perhaps thinking. Best,Peter > Peter and all, I doubt anyone on this list will fail to appreciate the potential harm in the label "disorder". This may be doubly true if the syndrome has its own order! Where we might draw our lines of inquiry, however, is whether we should iron out such lexical defects or whether we should leave them in to remind us of the relativity and context of their use. That is, should we treat our (lexical) "defects" as defects or differences? For example, is it not the case that the advantage of the "mathew effect" is also a dis-advantage? As an example of the dis-advantage Mathew is also cited as saying that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" [1]. Now, personally, I perceive "defects" in this quotation. However, to me, they are "useful defects" because I have some knowledge of why I think they are defects. Best, Huw [1] http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 11:35:56 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:35:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: <4e9bb93639f6419a9fc6b44a38c4d118@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <45ef5f0b717441179354372dfd276804@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <02c86c1d5e5e4720968e9619fea8cf87@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <4e9bb93639f6419a9fc6b44a38c4d118@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Very useful links to articles, Peter, thanks. Re LCHC attention to this issue, see the following from 1980. Examples from LCHC research using memory paradigms could also be found on line. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ap80v2n2.PDF#page=14 Huw -- How clever Mathew was! So the rich get richer but cannot, thereby, make it into heaven. To me, all of this is linked to the inability of modern nation states to stave off ecological disaster, and the role of formal schooling in fattening us up and making the needle's eye ever more slender. mike On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I don't quite have the luxury of time to address all of Huw's points, but > on the Matthew Effect: It is absolutely employed to reinforce deficit > views. In the US it's often employed to characterize what are believed to > be the "poor" vocabularies of impoverished urban youth, especially those > who are African American--the argument goes, These kids start out > disadvantaged with poor vocabularies, and this deficit leads them to fall > further and further behind in school. The overlooked phenomenon concerns > the way in which vocabulary is determined, often through vocabulary studies > based on acquaintance with the kinds of vocabulary words used in school > assessment. They learn plenty of words very useful to them in home and > community, but not recognized as "the right" sort of words in school and > school assessment. Thus, vocabulary development does indeed diverge, but > what measurement finds is that this divergence represents an absence, > because they only measure one cultural vocabulary. > > See > https://www.google.com/search?q=matthew+effect+urban+children+vocabulary&oq=matthew+effect+urban+children+vocabulary&aqs=chrome..69i57.9327j0j9&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:35 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class > > On 26 March 2014 11:47, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I wrote Mike the following note offlist, and he suggested I send it to > > the > > group: > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky > smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > > Hi Mike, I'm responding off-list to the article you sent. I make the > > following observation with the awareness that I have to police my own > > discursive representations of people of difference because it can be > > hard to break away from so much social and discursive conditioning. > > > > On p. 89, after working hard to challenge deficit perspectives on > > difference, you refer to "the issue of neurodevelopmental disorder > > such as ASD," a term you repeat just before the subhead. To me, the term > "disorder" > > indicates deficit, rather than what I think of as a different order. I > > also think you're locating the problems that follow from being > > different in the individual, rather than in the society that makes a > > deficit judgment of difference (LSV on defectology being channeled here). > > > > Just wanted to alert you to what I see as an inconsistency in your > > phrasing and thus perhaps thinking. Best,Peter > > > > Peter and all, > > I doubt anyone on this list will fail to appreciate the potential harm in > the label "disorder". This may be doubly true if the syndrome has its own > order! Where we might draw our lines of inquiry, however, is whether we > should iron out such lexical defects or whether we should leave them in to > remind us of the relativity and context of their use. That is, should we > treat our (lexical) "defects" as defects or differences? > > For example, is it not the case that the advantage of the "mathew effect" > is also a dis-advantage? As an example of the dis-advantage Mathew is > also cited as saying that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye > of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" [1]. Now, > personally, I perceive "defects" in this quotation. However, to me, they > are "useful defects" because I have some knowledge of why I think they are > defects. > > Best, > Huw > > > [1] http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm > > From ewall@umich.edu Wed Mar 26 11:48:22 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:48:22 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so thanks to Donna. Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been thinking about related issues. Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and among these is something that, in its various forms, is called collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your point of view I guess. Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is usefully discomforting (smile). Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his rupture may well be. Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very interesting!! Thanks Ed Wall From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Wed Mar 26 12:10:42 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:10:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5332EDF2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Ed, I am intrigued by your reference to a "rupture." Can you talk more about this? d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/26/2014 at 2:48 PM, in message , Ed Wall wrote: I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so thanks to Donna. Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been thinking about related issues. Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and among these is something that, in its various forms, is called collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your point of view I guess. Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is usefully discomforting (smile). Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his rupture may well be. Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very interesting!! Thanks Ed Wall From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Mar 26 13:45:31 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:45:31 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class Message-ID: Peter...that was the argument of the 1960s called the linguistic deficit hypothesis introduced by Bernstein and applied to both african americans and working class poor whites. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Peter Smagorinsky
Date:03/26/2014 2:14 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class
I don't quite have the luxury of time to address all of Huw's points, but on the Matthew Effect: It is absolutely? employed to reinforce deficit views. In the US it's often employed to characterize what are believed to be the "poor" vocabularies of impoverished urban youth, especially those who are African American--the argument goes, These kids start out disadvantaged with poor vocabularies, and this deficit leads them to fall further and further behind in school. The overlooked phenomenon concerns the way in which vocabulary is determined, often through vocabulary studies based on acquaintance with the kinds of vocabulary words used in school assessment. They learn plenty of words very useful to them in home and community, but not recognized as "the right" sort of words in school and school assessment. Thus, vocabulary development does indeed diverge, but what measurement finds is that this divergence represents an absence, because they only measure one cultural vocabulary. See https://www.google.com/search?q=matthew+effect+urban+children+vocabulary&oq=matthew+effect+urban+children+vocabulary&aqs=chrome..69i57.9327j0j9&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:35 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: FW: Re: poverty/class On 26 March 2014 11:47, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I wrote Mike the following note offlist, and he suggested I send it to > the > group: > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Peter Smagorinsky smago@uga.edu>> wrote: > Hi Mike, I'm responding off-list to the article you sent. I make the > following observation with the awareness that I have to police my own > discursive representations of people of difference because it can be > hard to break away from so much social and discursive conditioning. > > On p. 89, after working hard to challenge deficit perspectives on > difference, you refer to "the issue of neurodevelopmental disorder > such as ASD," a term you repeat just before the subhead. To me, the term "disorder" > indicates deficit, rather than what I think of as a different order. I > also think you're locating the problems that follow from being > different in the individual, rather than in the society that makes a > deficit judgment of difference (LSV on defectology being channeled here). > > Just wanted to alert you to what I see as an inconsistency in your > phrasing and thus perhaps thinking. Best,Peter > Peter and all, I doubt anyone on this list will fail to appreciate the potential harm in the label "disorder".? This may be doubly true if the syndrome has its own order!? Where we might draw our lines of inquiry, however, is whether we should iron out such lexical defects or whether we should leave them in to remind us of the relativity and context of their use.? That is, should we treat our (lexical) "defects" as defects or differences? For example, is it not the case that the advantage of the "mathew effect" is also a dis-advantage?? As an example of the dis-advantage Mathew is also cited as saying that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" [1].? Now, personally, I perceive "defects" in this quotation. However, to me, they are "useful defects" because I have some knowledge of why I think they are defects. Best, Huw [1] http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-24.htm From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Wed Mar 26 15:00:02 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:00:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in my experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are working collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the learning taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down monitoring notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group interactions in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass that the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, like Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration of who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" (p. 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it is quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they come to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and tensions with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in this case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide array of social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as themselves. you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what history your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can explain a great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in mind that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work in a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of Alice, Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work collaboratively. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so thanks to Donna. Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been thinking about related issues. Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and among these is something that, in its various forms, is called collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your point of view I guess. Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is usefully discomforting (smile). Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his rupture may well be. Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very interesting!! Thanks Ed Wall From hernandez.saca@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 15:25:13 2014 From: hernandez.saca@gmail.com (David Hernandez Saca) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:25:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory Message-ID: <533353c5.691db60a.6b72.016b@mx.google.com> Can I have a PDF copy of Donna's article? Thank you, David -----Original Message----- From: "Larry Purss" Sent: ?3/?26/?2014 7:36 AM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory Donna's article is asking us to examine the possible unintended consequences of promoting a "collaborative" model of classroom engagement as possibly promoting a [mis]alignment of interactive AND reflexive positioning in group process. One comment that jumped out was the observation that in EVERY collaborative group observed ONE participant was [mis]aligned in the group process. My question is if each [mis]aligned participant was asked to re-form within a new collaborative grouping would the same dynamic occur? Would Mitchell possibly [re]align and become a *productive* participant who aligns with the *task* while one of the participants would continue to be [mis]aligned?? This phenomena that in EVERY collaborative grouping there was a [mis]alignment leads to a question if this would same dynamic is playing out in other classroom settings? At the end of the article the conclusion offered that persons should have a *choice* to participate or withdraw from engaging in the collaborative process and either work alone or with others also expresses a particular *value* position. When [mis]aligned with the other participants through engaging in a process of *individual* reflection one *ought* to have the *choice* to withdraw. Could this *answer* also possibly lead to unintended consequences? A few months ago there was an article on positioning within a kindergarten classroom. The question asked was if there should be a *rule* or *principle* that one cannot say "You cannot play with us?" This rule promotes an alternative *value* position. The article described how the central discursive dynamic was exploring if there were any *exceptions* to this rule? The question whether this rule should *stand* and become a standpoint for how we position each other was left as an *open question* which could never have a final answer. However the *interactive* AND *reflexive* alignment and [mis]alighnent was very fluid and more like a *stream* of positioning to be negotiated. From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Wed Mar 26 15:25:21 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:25:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Thanks for your comments, Phillip. The classroom teacher was textbook exemplary in terms of preparing students for collaborative learning and in terms his negotiation of the classroom culture and context. Exemplary. In fact, it was a key factor in terms of why I chose this class. My goal was to study mathematical learning and I did not want poor teaching to distract from that. The reality was that my focus was on social interactions more than mathematics, given what the videos contained. That was totally unanticipated given how carefully I selected the teacher. I was also a seasoned teacher when I conducted the research. I recall, with great clarity, my first viewing of one of the videos where the positioning resulting in productive silencing. Most disturbing was images of me circulating in the background, the teacher stopping in to check on and work with the group. We simply didn't notice - despite our skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the positioning was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Even to the trained and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they are looking or thinking they are attending? Gee (1999) claim that interactions have the potential of infecting future interactions was obvious in the videos and watching the broader classroom interactions. It could be that what we see is also infected. In my current post-secondary teaching, when I circulate amongst groups, it is often very clear to me who is suddenly participating when I approach the group. What I recognize from this research is that there is likely an underlying dynamic that I do not see, even if I try to see it. Consequently, assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive context, then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it when I think about teaching and learning. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/26/2014 at 6:00 PM, in message , "White, Phillip" wrote: your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in my experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are working collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the learning taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down monitoring notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group interactions in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass that the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, like Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration of who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" (p. 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it is quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they come to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and tensions with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in this case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide array of social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as themselves. you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what history your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can explain a great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in mind that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work in a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of Alice, Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work collaboratively. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so thanks to Donna. Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been thinking about related issues. Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and among these is something that, in its various forms, is called collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your point of view I guess. Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is usefully discomforting (smile). Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his rupture may well be. Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very interesting!! Thanks Ed Wall From ablunden@mira.net Wed Mar 26 16:02:19 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:02:19 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <533353c5.691db60a.6b72.016b@mx.google.com> References: <533353c5.691db60a.6b72.016b@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <53335C7B.3060203@mira.net> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/21-1-kotsopoulos.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ David Hernandez Saca wrote: > Can I have a PDF copy of Donna's article? Thank you, David > > > From hernandez.saca@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 16:16:06 2014 From: hernandez.saca@gmail.com (David Hernandez Saca) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:16:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory Message-ID: <53335fb2.668ab60a.62f3.0c00@mx.google.com> Thank you very much, Andy! d -----Original Message----- From: "Andy Blunden" Sent: ?3/?26/?2014 4:04 PM To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/21-1-kotsopoulos.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ David Hernandez Saca wrote: > Can I have a PDF copy of Donna's article? Thank you, David > > > From ewall@umich.edu Wed Mar 26 16:24:13 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:24:13 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: , <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Donna I have been thinking about how to phrase my answer to your earlier question and will quickly get to it; however, I just wanted to applaud your final comment: "assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive context, then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it when I think about teaching and learning." This, to a degree, is what I meant by discomfort (and I was, of course, thinking of myself). Ed On Mar 26, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Phillip. > > The classroom teacher was textbook exemplary in terms of preparing students for collaborative learning and in terms his negotiation of the classroom culture and context. Exemplary. In fact, it was a key factor in terms of why I chose this class. My goal was to study mathematical learning and I did not want poor teaching to distract from that. The reality was that my focus was on social interactions more than mathematics, given what the videos contained. That was totally unanticipated given how carefully I selected the teacher. I was also a seasoned teacher when I conducted the research. > > I recall, with great clarity, my first viewing of one of the videos where the positioning resulting in productive silencing. Most disturbing was images of me circulating in the background, the teacher stopping in to check on and work with the group. We simply didn't notice - despite our skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the positioning was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Even to the trained and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they are looking or thinking they are attending? Gee (1999) claim that interactions have the potential of infecting future interactions was obvious in the videos and watching the broader classroom interactions. It could be that what we see is also infected. > > In my current post-secondary teaching, when I circulate amongst groups, it is often very clear to me who is suddenly participating when I approach the group. What I recognize from this research is that there is likely an underlying dynamic that I do not see, even if I try to see it. Consequently, assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive context, then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it when I think about teaching and learning. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>> On 3/26/2014 at 6:00 PM, in message , "White, Phillip" wrote: > > your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in my experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are working collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the learning taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down monitoring notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group interactions in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass that the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. > the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, like Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration of who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" (p. 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it is quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they come to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: > Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and tensions with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in this case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide array of social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as themselves. > you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what history your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can explain a great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in mind that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work in a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of Alice, Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work collaboratively. > > phillip > > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory > > I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so thanks to Donna. > > Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been thinking about related issues. > > Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and among these is something that, in its various forms, is called collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your point of view I guess. > > Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is usefully discomforting (smile). > > Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his rupture may well be. > > Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. > > I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very interesting!! > > Thanks > > Ed Wall From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Mar 26 16:44:09 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:44:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Donna, Your reflection, "Even to the trained and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they are looking or thinking they are attending?" Is a profound question exploring what we are actually attending to when we are *consciously* attending. Your further insights that, We simply didn't notice - despite our skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the positioning was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Donna, this *concealment* may indicate that what we as teachers are *attending to* always includes *concealment* as our *attending* presents partial ASPECTS of our *lived experience* with each other while other ASPECTS remain *concealed*. Also you mention you initially PLANNED on attending to the emerging cognitive development of math concepts, but on *re-reading* the video sequences, the positioning sequences were so compelling, that your initial *intention* had to be re-adjusted.. What teacher's are actually *seeing* may be as *constrained* and *concealed* as what they are *saying* and *hearing* and *doing*. It may be that the relational flow BETWEEN *revealing* and *concealing* may be very complex and the conceptual understanding of *discursive* may need to EXTEND further the notion of *voice* to include *felt tendency* in our understanding of positioning. The phrase that we need to *hear each other into voice* speaks to the vitality of Jennifer's insight that until we EXPLICITLY attend to the quality of *hearing each other into voice* in contrast to the more traditional educational goal of helping each student *find their own voice* [as a possession which they need to locate and claim] we may be attending to [REVEALING] the more individualistic aspects of *voice* AS positioning, while the intersubjective dialogical aspect of our responsibility to HEAR the other INTO voice remains concealed [and constrained]. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Phillip. > > The classroom teacher was textbook exemplary in terms of preparing > students for collaborative learning and in terms his negotiation of the > classroom culture and context. Exemplary. In fact, it was a key factor in > terms of why I chose this class. My goal was to study mathematical learning > and I did not want poor teaching to distract from that. The reality was > that my focus was on social interactions more than mathematics, given what > the videos contained. That was totally unanticipated given how carefully I > selected the teacher. I was also a seasoned teacher when I conducted the > research. > > I recall, with great clarity, my first viewing of one of the videos where > the positioning resulting in productive silencing. Most disturbing was > images of me circulating in the background, the teacher stopping in to > check on and work with the group. We simply didn't notice - despite our > skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so > effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the positioning > was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Even to the trained > and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important > questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they are > looking or thinking they are attending? Gee (1999) claim that interactions > have the potential of infecting future interactions was obvious in the > videos and watching the broader classroom interactions. It could be that > what we see is also infected. > > In my current post-secondary teaching, when I circulate amongst groups, it > is often very clear to me who is suddenly participating when I approach the > group. What I recognize from this research is that there is likely an > underlying dynamic that I do not see, even if I try to see it. > Consequently, assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive context, > then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it when I > think about teaching and learning. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/26/2014 at 6:00 PM, in message > , "White, > Phillip" wrote: > > your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's > ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in my > experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are working > collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and > analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the learning > taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down monitoring > notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group interactions > in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for > consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass that > the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. > the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the > complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, like > Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a > classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a > multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all > pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration of > who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" (p. > 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it is > quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself > unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, > "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some > students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they come > to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. > 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: > Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third > graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood > these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and tensions > with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, > "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary > Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in this > case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide array of > social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as > themselves. > you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of > infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what history > your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to > this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is > exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can explain a > great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in mind > that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be > in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that > students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work in > a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of Alice, > Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work > collaboratively. > > phillip > > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory > > I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so > thanks to Donna. > > Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the > terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been > thinking about related issues. > > Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and > among these is something that, in its various forms, is called > collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; > collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, > in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) > for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad > it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of > answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give > students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, > and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical > knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your > point of view I guess. > > Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or > relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some > sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it > also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to > publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' > yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is > usefully discomforting (smile). > > Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture > and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although > unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend > to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of > collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I > think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the > pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from > himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and > are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, > realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not > sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this > himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his > rupture may well be. > > Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and > his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. > Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in > tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a > somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the > omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a > little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could > usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. > > I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' > (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. > What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards > (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very > interesting!! > > Thanks > > Ed Wall > From ewall@umich.edu Wed Mar 26 16:49:32 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:49:32 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5332EDF2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <5332EDF2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <10A4D2F0-E289-459F-9F3B-F77ADD86E493@umich.edu> Donna In a sense, I am talking about a 'definitional' eruption. Intriguingly and in a sense, it seems to be caused by a certain initial 'sloppiness' in the early grades and a certain learned 'rigidity' in the latter grades. For instance, during discussion of even and odd the case of six might come up. It behaves a bit like two - i.e. two groups of three - and a bit like three - i.e. three groups of two. Hence, if the idea of odd is still being negotiated, someone might claim six is both even and odd (by the way, Euclid, has the definitions even times eve; even times odd; and odd times odd). A bit latter there might be problems defining fractional portion of nonstandard geometric shapes (e.g. other than cookies - smile) as equal parts have been taken for granted. I could go on and be more specific, but perhaps this is sufficient. These 'blips' are, in a sense, developmental (I think of Vygotsky here) and, whether no one voices them sufficiently, usually lurking. Thus it makes sense cayuse them surface. The problem is, of course, that can be uncomfortable for the teacher and the students. I can remember my own children saying to me, "Dad, don't explain! Just tell me the answer" (smile). I suspect teacher educators - such as myself - position our students - teachers and teachers-to-be - to be comfortable (or to uncomfortable they are not comfortable). The term, by the way, came to be in a research group I frequented in which all we did, more or less, was watch classroom video of mathematics classrooms (especially those in which there was some sort of collaboration). After awhile it became clear that, unsurprisingly, ruptures were, to some extent, endemic. I hope this is useful. Ed On Mar 26, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Ed, > > I am intrigued by your reference to a "rupture." Can you talk more about this? > > d. > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>> On 3/26/2014 at 2:48 PM, in message , Ed Wall wrote: > > > I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so thanks to Donna. > > Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been thinking about related issues. > > Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and among these is something that, in its various forms, is called collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your point of view I guess. > > Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is usefully discomforting (smile). > > Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his rupture may well be. > > Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. > > I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very interesting!! > > Thanks > > Ed Wall From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Thu Mar 27 05:22:42 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:22:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Interesting your use of the word "rereading" the videos. All I could see was the positioning - despite not having that theoretical orientation prior to the viewing of the videos. My initial focus on was on Gee's little "d" discourse. Remarkably, I was asked to go back and reread the videos and "just" attend to the mathematics which I could not do. There was an ethical obligation that made the actual mathematics seem secondary. Almost parallel in time and design, another mathematics education researcher studied older students' collaborations. Our videos were remarkably, remarkably similar. The dystopic view of productive was undeniable in videos from each of the studies. Yet, one of us read the mathematics and, as you see from my work, I read something different. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/26/2014 at 7:44 PM, in message , Larry Purss wrote: Donna, Your reflection, "Even to the trained and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they are looking or thinking they are attending?" Is a profound question exploring what we are actually attending to when we are *consciously* attending. Your further insights that, We simply didn't notice - despite our skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the positioning was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Donna, this *concealment* may indicate that what we as teachers are *attending to* always includes *concealment* as our *attending* presents partial ASPECTS of our *lived experience* with each other while other ASPECTS remain *concealed*. Also you mention you initially PLANNED on attending to the emerging cognitive development of math concepts, but on *re-reading* the video sequences, the positioning sequences were so compelling, that your initial *intention* had to be re-adjusted.. What teacher's are actually *seeing* may be as *constrained* and *concealed* as what they are *saying* and *hearing* and *doing*. It may be that the relational flow BETWEEN *revealing* and *concealing* may be very complex and the conceptual understanding of *discursive* may need to EXTEND further the notion of *voice* to include *felt tendency* in our understanding of positioning. The phrase that we need to *hear each other into voice* speaks to the vitality of Jennifer's insight that until we EXPLICITLY attend to the quality of *hearing each other into voice* in contrast to the more traditional educational goal of helping each student *find their own voice* [as a possession which they need to locate and claim] we may be attending to [REVEALING] the more individualistic aspects of *voice* AS positioning, while the intersubjective dialogical aspect of our responsibility to HEAR the other INTO voice remains concealed [and constrained]. On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Phillip. > > The classroom teacher was textbook exemplary in terms of preparing > students for collaborative learning and in terms his negotiation of the > classroom culture and context. Exemplary. In fact, it was a key factor in > terms of why I chose this class. My goal was to study mathematical learning > and I did not want poor teaching to distract from that. The reality was > that my focus was on social interactions more than mathematics, given what > the videos contained. That was totally unanticipated given how carefully I > selected the teacher. I was also a seasoned teacher when I conducted the > research. > > I recall, with great clarity, my first viewing of one of the videos where > the positioning resulting in productive silencing. Most disturbing was > images of me circulating in the background, the teacher stopping in to > check on and work with the group. We simply didn't notice - despite our > skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so > effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the positioning > was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Even to the trained > and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important > questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they are > looking or thinking they are attending? Gee (1999) claim that interactions > have the potential of infecting future interactions was obvious in the > videos and watching the broader classroom interactions. It could be that > what we see is also infected. > > In my current post-secondary teaching, when I circulate amongst groups, it > is often very clear to me who is suddenly participating when I approach the > group. What I recognize from this research is that there is likely an > underlying dynamic that I do not see, even if I try to see it. > Consequently, assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive context, > then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it when I > think about teaching and learning. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/26/2014 at 6:00 PM, in message > , "White, > Phillip" wrote: > > your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's > ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in my > experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are working > collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and > analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the learning > taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down monitoring > notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group interactions > in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for > consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass that > the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. > the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the > complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, like > Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a > classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a > multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all > pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration of > who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" (p. > 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it is > quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself > unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, > "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some > students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they come > to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. > 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: > Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third > graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood > these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and tensions > with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, > "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary > Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in this > case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide array of > social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as > themselves. > you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of > infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what history > your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to > this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is > exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can explain a > great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in mind > that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be > in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that > students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work in > a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of Alice, > Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work > collaboratively. > > phillip > > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory > > I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so > thanks to Donna. > > Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the > terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been > thinking about related issues. > > Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and > among these is something that, in its various forms, is called > collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; > collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it is, > in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) > for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad > it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of > answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give > students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, > and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the mathematical > knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on your > point of view I guess. > > Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or > relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some > sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it > also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to > publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' > yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is > usefully discomforting (smile). > > Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture > and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although > unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I tend > to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of > collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's (I > think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the > pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from > himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks and > are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. However, > realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not > sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this > himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his > rupture may well be. > > Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell and > his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. > Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in > tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a > somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the > omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a > little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) could > usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. > > I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' > (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire class. > What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, afterwards > (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very > interesting!! > > Thanks > > Ed Wall > From anamshane@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 06:02:46 2014 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:02:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word Message-ID: Dear all, From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the Bernstein's based (language +) deficit based educational approach to minority, low income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or Orwellian? What do you think? Ana http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-word-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 PROVIDENCE, R.I. ? Amid a political push for government-funded preschool for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that such programs actually start too late for the children most at risk. That is why Deisy Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of Guatemalan immigrants, is wearing a tiny recorder that captures every word she hears and utters inside her family?s cramped apartment one day a week. Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even before age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do those of the poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy?s parents on how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is part of an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is aimed at the city?s poorest residents and intended to reduce the knowledge gap long before school starts. It is among a number of such efforts being undertaken throughout the country. Photo Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images of emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her 16-month-old daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times ?When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator and points to the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, ?Deisy, are you hungry? You want cereal? Let?s go look for the cereal,? ? Stephanie Taveras, a Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head Start, told Deisy?s mother in Spanish. ?You do the responding for her now until she has the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you.? Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and immigrants, do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing with their young children, is important. ?I?ve had young moms say, ?I didn?t know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could say words and talk to me,? ? said Susan Landry, director of the Children?s Learning Institute at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home visiting program similar to the one here in Providence. Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. More than half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by a parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis of census data. To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their efforts on the home. ?In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and reading to them,? said Ann O?Leary, the director of Too Small to Fail, an initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the country. ?We want to move the needle from this being an optional activity to a must-do activity.? Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation and the Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as its initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do children of any other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared for at home by a relative during the day than are either white or African-American children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to Fail, which has raised $10 million so far. Photo The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Last month, Too Small To Fail started an advertising campaign in conjunction with Univision, the Spanish-language television network, featuring B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In one ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. ?Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you?re preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong foundation for their academic success,? Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. Ms. O?Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety of media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, slogans like ?Words bring your child?s mind to life,? ?Talking is teaching? and ?Feed me words? will appear on billboards, grocery carts and buses in low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The goal, Ms. O?Leary said, is to emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as those intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put their babies to sleep on their backs. As in Providence, several groups around the country ? some of longstanding tenure ? are building home visiting programs and workshops to help parents learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. ?Every parent can talk,? said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon at the University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words Initiative, which oversees home visiting programs and public information campaigns. ?It?s the most empowering thing,? said Dr. Suskind, who is securing funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended to teach parents how they should talk with their children and why. Photo Deisy?s mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term academic prospects of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping poverty, is a much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might suggest. ?When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it?s like fine, vocabulary is good,? said Bruce Fuller, a professor of education and public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. ?But there is a deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the dinner table and talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the more colorful fabric of literacy and conversation.? Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school students are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and two-thirds of public school kindergartners are behind in recognizing basic language sounds or identifying letters in print, officials see Providence Talks as just one part of a larger educational strategy. It is being funded by a $5 million grant from Bloomberg Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can eventually secure some public funding. ?The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the possibility that you can get government funding for it,? said Angel Taveras, Providence?s first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head Start. Continue reading the main story Recent Comments ecolecon 17 hours ago "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy?s parents on how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson."This... Ecojustice James 17 hours ago Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and understanding about their value can come through mentoring and sharing... manoflamancha 17 hours ago Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids learning curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... See All Comments On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to the mayor) sat down with Deisy?s parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a third-grade education and spoke her native K?iche? when she emigrated from Guatemala seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many words she and her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a factory in the city, had spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the home visitors give each family ? all of whom volunteered to participate ? a tiny recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from television or other electronics and live human conversations. Computer software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. Photo Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Privacy advocates and the Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union raised concerns about the recordings. In response, Providence officials disabled playback functions on the devices and promised that home visitors and others would never be able to listen to the actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once they are uploaded for word-count analysis. Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the short term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents to talk more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in future academic performance. Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of communication as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. ?It?s not just saying, ?You need to say this amount of words to your kids every day and then they?re going to be smart and successful,? ? said Claire Lerner, director of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a nonprofit group that promotes healthy development in the early years. ?We don?t want parents talking at babies,? Ms. Lerner said. ?We want parents talking with babies.? In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when parents and caregivers wait for ? and respond to ? the verbal utterances of their children. On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she and Mr. Ixcuna had increased such ?conversational turns? with Deisy. Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. ?The next one will be even higher,? she said. From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 27 06:52:14 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:52:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Thu Mar 27 07:03:41 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:03:41 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word Message-ID: Orwellian...we need to devise means to eradicate class structural differentiation not its epiphenomena. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Ana Marjanovic-Shane
Date:03/27/2014 9:02 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" ,PIG
Subject: [Xmca-l] Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word
Dear all, From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the Bernstein's based (language +) deficit based educational approach to minority, low income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or Orwellian?? What do you think? Ana http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-word-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 PROVIDENCE, R.I. ? Amid a political push for government-funded preschool for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that such programs actually start too late for the children most at risk. That is why Deisy Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of Guatemalan immigrants, is wearing a tiny recorder that captures every word she hears and utters inside her family?s cramped apartment one day a week. Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even before age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do those of the poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy?s parents on how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is part of an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is aimed at the city?s poorest residents and intended to reduce the knowledge gap long before school starts. It is among a number of such efforts being undertaken throughout the country. Photo Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images of emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her 16-month-old daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times ?When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator and points to the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, ?Deisy, are you hungry? You want cereal? Let?s go look for the cereal,? ? Stephanie Taveras, a Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head Start, told Deisy?s mother in Spanish. ?You do the responding for her now until she has the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you.? Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and immigrants, do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing with their young children, is important. ?I?ve had young moms say, ?I didn?t know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could say words and talk to me,? ? said Susan Landry, director of the Children?s Learning Institute at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home visiting program similar to the one here in Providence. Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. More than half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by a parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis of census data. To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their efforts on the home. ?In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and reading to them,? said Ann O?Leary, the director of Too Small to Fail, an initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the country. ?We want to move the needle from this being an optional activity to a must-do activity.? Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation and the Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as its initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do children of any other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared for at home by a relative during the day than are either white or African-American children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to Fail, which has raised $10 million so far. Photo The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Last month, Too Small To Fail started an advertising campaign in conjunction with Univision, the Spanish-language television network, featuring B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In one ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. ?Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you?re preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong foundation for their academic success,? Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. Ms. O?Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety of media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, slogans like ?Words bring your child?s mind to life,? ?Talking is teaching? and ?Feed me words? will appear on billboards, grocery carts and buses in low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The goal, Ms. O?Leary said, is to emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as those intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put their babies to sleep on their backs. As in Providence, several groups around the country ? some of longstanding tenure ? are building home visiting programs and workshops to help parents learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. ?Every parent can talk,? said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon at the University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words Initiative, which oversees home visiting programs and public information campaigns. ?It?s the most empowering thing,? said Dr. Suskind, who is securing funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended to teach parents how they should talk with their children and why. Photo Deisy?s mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term academic prospects of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping poverty, is a much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might suggest. ?When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it?s like fine, vocabulary is good,? said Bruce Fuller, a professor of education and public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. ?But there is a deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the dinner table and talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the more colorful fabric of literacy and conversation.? Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school students are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and two-thirds of public school kindergartners are behind in recognizing basic language sounds or identifying letters in print, officials see Providence Talks as just one part of a larger educational strategy. It is being funded by a $5 million grant from Bloomberg Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can eventually secure some public funding. ?The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the possibility that you can get government funding for it,? said Angel Taveras, Providence?s first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head Start. Continue reading the main story Recent Comments ecolecon 17 hours ago "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy?s parents on how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson."This... Ecojustice James 17 hours ago Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and understanding about their value can come through mentoring and sharing... manoflamancha 17 hours ago Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids learning curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... See All Comments On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to the mayor) sat down with Deisy?s parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a third-grade education and spoke her native K?iche? when she emigrated from Guatemala seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many words she and her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a factory in the city, had spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the home visitors give each family ? all of whom volunteered to participate ? a tiny recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from television or other electronics and live human conversations. Computer software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. Photo Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Privacy advocates and the Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union raised concerns about the recordings. In response, Providence officials disabled playback functions on the devices and promised that home visitors and others would never be able to listen to the actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once they are uploaded for word-count analysis. Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the short term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents to talk more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in future academic performance. Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of communication as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. ?It?s not just saying, ?You need to say this amount of words to your kids every day and then they?re going to be smart and successful,? ? said Claire Lerner, director of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a nonprofit group that promotes healthy development in the early years. ?We don?t want parents talking at babies,? Ms. Lerner said. ?We want parents talking with babies.? In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when parents and caregivers wait for ? and respond to ? the verbal utterances of their children. On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she and Mr. Ixcuna had increased such ?conversational turns? with Deisy. Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. ?The next one will be even higher,? she said. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 08:13:26 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:13:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 March 2014 13:02, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear all, > > From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the Bernstein's > based (language +) deficit based educational approach to minority, low > income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or Orwellian? What do > you think? > > Ana > > It depends on all those epiphenomenal things that aren't mentioned in the article. ;) Its a bit funny that there's a discussion page on the NYTimes site, but that its more interesting to discuss it here. Where'd that start? :) Best, Huw > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-word-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 > > Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 > > PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Amid a political push for government-funded preschool > for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that such programs > actually start too late for the children most at risk. That is why Deisy > Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of Guatemalan immigrants, is > wearing a tiny recorder that captures every word she hears and utters > inside her family's cramped apartment one day a week. > > Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous > interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even before > age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do those of the > poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on how > to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is part of > an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is aimed at the > city's poorest residents and intended to reduce the knowledge gap long > before school starts. It is among a number of such efforts being undertaken > throughout the country. > > Photo > > Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images of > emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her 16-month-old > daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times > "When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator and points to > the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, 'Deisy, are you hungry? > You want cereal? Let's go look for the cereal,' " Stephanie Taveras, a > Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head Start, told > Deisy's mother in Spanish. "You do the responding for her now until she has > the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you." > > Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and immigrants, > do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing with > their young children, is important. "I've had young moms say, 'I didn't > know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could say words and talk > to me,' " said Susan Landry, director of the Children's Learning Institute > at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home visiting > program similar to the one here in Providence. > > Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. More than > half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by a > parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis of census > data. > > To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their efforts on > the home. > > "In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their > teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and > reading to them," said Ann O'Leary, the director of Too Small to Fail, an > initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the country. "We want to > move the needle from this being an optional activity to a must-do activity." > > Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation and the > Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as its > initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do children of any > other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared for at > home by a relative during the day than are either white or African-American > children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to Fail, > which has raised $10 million so far. > > Photo > > The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. > Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times > Last month, Too Small To Fail started an advertising campaign in > conjunction with Univision, the Spanish-language television network, > featuring B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In one > ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused > playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. > > "Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you're > preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable > minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong > foundation for their academic success," Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. > > Ms. O'Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety of > media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, slogans > like "Words bring your child's mind to life," "Talking is teaching" and > "Feed me words" will appear on billboards, grocery carts and buses in > low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The goal, Ms. O'Leary said, is to > emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as those > intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put their babies to > sleep on their backs. > > As in Providence, several groups around the country -- some of longstanding > tenure -- are building home visiting programs and workshops to help parents > learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. > > "Every parent can talk," said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon at the > University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words Initiative, > which oversees home visiting programs and public information campaigns. > > "It's the most empowering thing," said Dr. Suskind, who is securing > funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended to teach > parents how they should talk with their children and why. > > Photo > > Deisy's mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a > Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York > Times > Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term academic prospects > of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping poverty, is a > much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might suggest. > > "When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it's like > fine, vocabulary is good," said Bruce Fuller, a professor of education and > public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. "But there is a > deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the dinner table and > talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the more > colorful fabric of literacy and conversation." > > Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school students > are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and two-thirds of public > school kindergartners are behind in recognizing basic language sounds or > identifying letters in print, officials see Providence Talks as just one > part of a larger educational strategy. It is being funded by a $5 million > grant from Bloomberg Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can > eventually secure some public funding. > > "The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the possibility > that you can get government funding for it," said Angel Taveras, > Providence's first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head Start. > > Continue reading the main story > Recent Comments > > ecolecon > > 17 hours ago > "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on how to > turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson."This... > > Ecojustice James > > 17 hours ago > Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and > understanding about their value can come through mentoring and sharing... > > manoflamancha > > 17 hours ago > Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids learning > curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... > > See All Comments > On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to the > mayor) sat down with Deisy's parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a third-grade > education and spoke her native K'iche' when she emigrated from Guatemala > seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many words she and > her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a factory in the city, had > spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. > > To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the home > visitors give each family -- all of whom volunteered to participate -- a tiny > recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest worn by > the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from > television or other electronics and live human conversations. Computer > software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. > > Photo > > Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school > kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit Katherine > Taylor for The New York Times > Privacy advocates and the Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil > Liberties Union raised concerns about the recordings. In response, > Providence officials disabled playback functions on the devices and > promised that home visitors and others would never be able to listen to the > actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once they are > uploaded for word-count analysis. > > Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the short > term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents to talk > more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in future > academic performance. > > Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of communication > as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. "It's not just saying, > 'You need to say this amount of words to your kids every day and then > they're going to be smart and successful,' " said Claire Lerner, director > of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a nonprofit group that promotes > healthy development in the early years. > > "We don't want parents talking at babies," Ms. Lerner said. "We want > parents talking with babies." > > In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when > parents and caregivers wait for -- and respond to -- the verbal utterances of > their children. > > On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she and > Mr. Ixcuna had increased such "conversational turns" with Deisy. > > Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. "The next one will be even higher," she > said. > > > From ewall@umich.edu Thu Mar 27 09:32:18 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:32:18 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> Peter The video seemed to be, for the most part (and perhaps I misread it), how students should be learning not what students should be learning. I've often wondered - given some of the conversion I hear in educational circles - how disjoint these really are? Ed Wall On Mar 27, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o > This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. > From ewall@umich.edu Thu Mar 27 09:32:18 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:32:18 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> Peter The video seemed to be, for the most part (and perhaps I misread it), how students should be learning not what students should be learning. I've often wondered - given some of the conversion I hear in educational circles - how disjoint these really are? Ed Wall On Mar 27, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o > This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 09:33:48 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:33:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Dear Donna, The impressions I thought about were: 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive schema in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and directives, but that the emphasis is on the making. 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) and methods to show its "genesis". So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them in order to help them think about the planning but also the potential amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for the children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the salience of the mathematical concepts). Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the planning. Thank you for presenting the paper! Best, Huw On 27 March 2014 12:22, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Interesting your use of the word "rereading" the videos. All I could see > was the positioning - despite not having that theoretical orientation prior > to the viewing of the videos. My initial focus on was on Gee's little "d" > discourse. Remarkably, I was asked to go back and reread the videos and > "just" attend to the mathematics which I could not do. There was an ethical > obligation that made the actual mathematics seem secondary. > > Almost parallel in time and design, another mathematics education > researcher studied older students' collaborations. Our videos were > remarkably, remarkably similar. The dystopic view of productive was > undeniable in videos from each of the studies. Yet, one of us read the > mathematics and, as you see from my work, I read something different. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/26/2014 at 7:44 PM, in message < > CAGaCnpx-TDVnE9SHry5quqV37-9s8MhYHKPSF4yurGQLP5OiuQ@mail.gmail.com>, > Larry Purss wrote: > > Donna, > > Your reflection, > > "Even to the trained and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to > me very important questions about what is it that teachers actually see, > even when they are looking or thinking they are attending?" > > Is a profound question exploring what we are actually attending to when we > are *consciously* attending. Your further insights that, > > We simply didn't notice - despite our skill level, engagement, and our > attending. The masking behavior was so effective that we didn't notice - > and this is precisely why the positioning was so powerful and resulted in > productive silencing. > > Donna, this *concealment* may indicate that what we as teachers are > *attending to* always includes *concealment* as our *attending* > presents partial ASPECTS of our *lived experience* with each other while > other ASPECTS remain *concealed*. > > Also you mention you initially PLANNED on attending to the emerging > cognitive development of math concepts, but on *re-reading* the video > sequences, the positioning sequences were so compelling, that your initial > *intention* had to be re-adjusted.. > > What teacher's are actually *seeing* may be as *constrained* and > *concealed* as what they are *saying* and *hearing* and *doing*. It may be > that the relational flow BETWEEN *revealing* and *concealing* may be very > complex and the conceptual understanding of *discursive* may need to EXTEND > further the notion of *voice* to include *felt tendency* in our > understanding of positioning. > > The phrase that we need to *hear each other into voice* speaks to the > vitality of Jennifer's insight that until we EXPLICITLY attend to the > quality of *hearing each other into voice* in contrast to the more > traditional educational goal of helping each student *find their own > voice* [as a possession which they need to locate and claim] we may be > attending to [REVEALING] the more individualistic aspects of *voice* AS > positioning, while the intersubjective dialogical aspect of our > responsibility to HEAR the other INTO voice remains concealed [and > constrained]. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos > wrote: > > > Thanks for your comments, Phillip. > > > > The classroom teacher was textbook exemplary in terms of preparing > > students for collaborative learning and in terms his negotiation of the > > classroom culture and context. Exemplary. In fact, it was a key factor in > > terms of why I chose this class. My goal was to study mathematical > learning > > and I did not want poor teaching to distract from that. The reality was > > that my focus was on social interactions more than mathematics, given > what > > the videos contained. That was totally unanticipated given how carefully > I > > selected the teacher. I was also a seasoned teacher when I conducted the > > research. > > > > I recall, with great clarity, my first viewing of one of the videos > where > > the positioning resulting in productive silencing. Most disturbing was > > images of me circulating in the background, the teacher stopping in to > > check on and work with the group. We simply didn't notice - despite our > > skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so > > effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the > positioning > > was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Even to the trained > > and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very important > > questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they > are > > looking or thinking they are attending? Gee (1999) claim that > interactions > > have the potential of infecting future interactions was obvious in the > > videos and watching the broader classroom interactions. It could be that > > what we see is also infected. > > > > In my current post-secondary teaching, when I circulate amongst groups, > it > > is often very clear to me who is suddenly participating when I approach > the > > group. What I recognize from this research is that there is likely an > > underlying dynamic that I do not see, even if I try to see it. > > Consequently, assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive context, > > then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it when I > > think about teaching and learning. > > > > > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > > Wilfrid Laurier University > > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). > Any > > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > > >>> On 3/26/2014 at 6:00 PM, in message > > , "White, > > Phillip" wrote: > > > > your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's > > ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in > my > > experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are working > > collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and > > analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the learning > > taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down > monitoring > > notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group interactions > > in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for > > consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass > that > > the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. > > the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the > > complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, like > > Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a > > classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a > > multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all > > pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration of > > who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" > (p. > > 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it is > > quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself > > unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, > > "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some > > students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they > come > > to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. > > 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: > > Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third > > graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood > > these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and > tensions > > with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, > > "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary > > Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in this > > case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide array > of > > social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as > > themselves. > > you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of > > infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what > history > > your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to > > this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is > > exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can explain > a > > great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in > mind > > that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be > > in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that > > students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work > in > > a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of Alice, > > Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work > > collaboratively. > > > > phillip > > > > > > > > Phillip White, PhD > > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > > Site Coordinator > > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > > or > > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory > > > > I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so > > thanks to Donna. > > > > Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with the > > terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been > > thinking about related issues. > > > > Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets and > > among these is something that, in its various forms, is called > > collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; > > collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it > is, > > in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method (positioning?) > > for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is bad > > it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of > > answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give > > students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, methods, > > and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the > mathematical > > knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on > your > > point of view I guess. > > > > Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk or > > relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of some > > sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, it > > also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need to > > publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' > > yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is > > usefully discomforting (smile). > > > > Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture > > and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although > > unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I > tend > > to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of > > collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's > (I > > think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the > > pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from > > himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks > and > > are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. > However, > > realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not > > sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do this > > himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his > > rupture may well be. > > > > Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell > and > > his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. > > Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in > > tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a > > somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the > > omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a > > little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) > could > > usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. > > > > I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' > > (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire > class. > > What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, > afterwards > > (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very > > interesting!! > > > > Thanks > > > > Ed Wall > > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 27 10:12:02 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:12:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> References: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> Message-ID: <52ed3bb994dd412f9913ef5a746a3375@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Ed, I wouldn't necessarily separate the what from the how (as McLuhan said, the medium is the message). When students sit in lecture halls with 400 students, as is the case in large American universities for 1-2 years, the content is reduced to what is testable, rather than what they make sense of. They are learning that learning is tedious and generally irrelevant. That's how I learned history in school, and thought that history was static, boring, and irrelevant. As an adult, all of my leisure reading is historical because I now read good historical writers, integrate the knowledge into my understanding of current events and thus reformulate my worldview, etc. I forget many of the facts (the object of lecture-hall assessment) but remember the synthesis of understanding. So yes, like the students in the brief film, I see them as disjointed. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video Peter The video seemed to be, for the most part (and perhaps I misread it), how students should be learning not what students should be learning. I've often wondered - given some of the conversion I hear in educational circles - how disjoint these really are? Ed Wall On Mar 27, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o > This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 10:39:52 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:39:52 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Huw, Your reference to the relations of positioning TO Brandom's inferential perspectives and the methods which show its *genesis* was a pregnant thought. I hope you are able to expand on this relation. Is this relation a reflection from your *inner thought* [which is abbreviated and condensed] or can this relation BETWEEN Harre and Brandom be expanded from specific readings? Jennifer, Your comment that the ONLY effective way you have personally discovered to change the trajectory of [mis]aligned positioning is through *developing voice* is another potential direction to expand. In this spirit the quote below may also expand the relations of positioning theory TO *voice theory* as an exploration of positioning from Bahktin's literary notion of *voice* [AS novelistic genres.] Bahktin proposes the *object* to be explored is NOT the developing ideas in themselves The *object* is PRECISELY the ACT of passing the themes/ideas THROUGH varied voices. The *object* of positioning theory AND the *object* of voice theory seem to overlap in significant ways. William James explored the sense of *me* as that felt sense of what is MINE. If we assume that my *voice* is MINE then my voice as *object* becomes what is *selected for* and what we discern AND VALUE. However, Bahktin in the quote below has a contrasting dialogical sense of *voice* which may express a more dialogical understanding of *positioning* The object of the author's aspirations is not at all this totality of ideas in and of itself, as something neutral and identical with itself. No, the object is precisely the act of passing the themes through many and varied voices, it is, so to speak, the fundamental, irrescindable multivoicedness and varivoicedness of the theme. (Bakhtin, 1929/1973, p. 226) On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Dear Donna, > > The impressions I thought about were: > > 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is > committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. > That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. > > 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive schema > in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the > work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various > operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and directives, > but that the emphasis is on the making. > > 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) > and methods to show its "genesis". > > So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with > planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them in > order to help them think about the planning but also the potential > amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". > > I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for the > children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this > complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the > salience of the mathematical concepts). > > Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to > calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the > mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the > planning. > > Thank you for presenting the paper! > > Best, > Huw > > > > > On 27 March 2014 12:22, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > > Interesting your use of the word "rereading" the videos. All I could see > > was the positioning - despite not having that theoretical orientation > prior > > to the viewing of the videos. My initial focus on was on Gee's little "d" > > discourse. Remarkably, I was asked to go back and reread the videos and > > "just" attend to the mathematics which I could not do. There was an > ethical > > obligation that made the actual mathematics seem secondary. > > > > Almost parallel in time and design, another mathematics education > > researcher studied older students' collaborations. Our videos were > > remarkably, remarkably similar. The dystopic view of productive was > > undeniable in videos from each of the studies. Yet, one of us read the > > mathematics and, as you see from my work, I read something different. > > > > > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > > Wilfrid Laurier University > > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). > Any > > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > > >>> On 3/26/2014 at 7:44 PM, in message < > > CAGaCnpx-TDVnE9SHry5quqV37-9s8MhYHKPSF4yurGQLP5OiuQ@mail.gmail.com>, > > Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Donna, > > > > Your reflection, > > > > "Even to the trained and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised > to > > me very important questions about what is it that teachers actually see, > > even when they are looking or thinking they are attending?" > > > > Is a profound question exploring what we are actually attending to when > we > > are *consciously* attending. Your further insights that, > > > > We simply didn't notice - despite our skill level, engagement, and our > > attending. The masking behavior was so effective that we didn't notice - > > and this is precisely why the positioning was so powerful and resulted in > > productive silencing. > > > > Donna, this *concealment* may indicate that what we as teachers are > > *attending to* always includes *concealment* as our *attending* > > presents partial ASPECTS of our *lived experience* with each other while > > other ASPECTS remain *concealed*. > > > > Also you mention you initially PLANNED on attending to the emerging > > cognitive development of math concepts, but on *re-reading* the video > > sequences, the positioning sequences were so compelling, that your > initial > > *intention* had to be re-adjusted.. > > > > What teacher's are actually *seeing* may be as *constrained* and > > *concealed* as what they are *saying* and *hearing* and *doing*. It may > be > > that the relational flow BETWEEN *revealing* and *concealing* may be very > > complex and the conceptual understanding of *discursive* may need to > EXTEND > > further the notion of *voice* to include *felt tendency* in our > > understanding of positioning. > > > > The phrase that we need to *hear each other into voice* speaks to the > > vitality of Jennifer's insight that until we EXPLICITLY attend to the > > quality of *hearing each other into voice* in contrast to the more > > traditional educational goal of helping each student *find their own > > voice* [as a possession which they need to locate and claim] we may be > > attending to [REVEALING] the more individualistic aspects of *voice* AS > > positioning, while the intersubjective dialogical aspect of our > > responsibility to HEAR the other INTO voice remains concealed [and > > constrained]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos > > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for your comments, Phillip. > > > > > > The classroom teacher was textbook exemplary in terms of preparing > > > students for collaborative learning and in terms his negotiation of the > > > classroom culture and context. Exemplary. In fact, it was a key factor > in > > > terms of why I chose this class. My goal was to study mathematical > > learning > > > and I did not want poor teaching to distract from that. The reality was > > > that my focus was on social interactions more than mathematics, given > > what > > > the videos contained. That was totally unanticipated given how > carefully > > I > > > selected the teacher. I was also a seasoned teacher when I conducted > the > > > research. > > > > > > I recall, with great clarity, my first viewing of one of the videos > > where > > > the positioning resulting in productive silencing. Most disturbing was > > > images of me circulating in the background, the teacher stopping in to > > > check on and work with the group. We simply didn't notice - despite our > > > skill level, engagement, and our attending. The masking behavior was so > > > effective that we didn't notice - and this is precisely why the > > positioning > > > was so powerful and resulted in productive silencing. Even to the > trained > > > and present eye, it went unnoticed. This has raised to me very > important > > > questions about what is it that teachers actually see, even when they > > are > > > looking or thinking they are attending? Gee (1999) claim that > > interactions > > > have the potential of infecting future interactions was obvious in the > > > videos and watching the broader classroom interactions. It could be > that > > > what we see is also infected. > > > > > > In my current post-secondary teaching, when I circulate amongst groups, > > it > > > is often very clear to me who is suddenly participating when I approach > > the > > > group. What I recognize from this research is that there is likely an > > > underlying dynamic that I do not see, even if I try to see it. > > > Consequently, assuming I can't see this underlying or subversive > context, > > > then there is a moral imperative for me to think actively about it > when I > > > think about teaching and learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > > > Wilfrid Laurier University > > > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > intended > > > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). > > Any > > > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > > > >>> On 3/26/2014 at 6:00 PM, in message > > > , > "White, > > > Phillip" wrote: > > > > > > your comments resonated with me strongly, Ed. as i read Donna's > > > ethnography, i kept on wondering where the teacher was in all this. in > > my > > > experience as a classroom teacher, particularly when students are > working > > > collaboratively, is constantly moving from group to group observing and > > > analyzing the social interactions that should be supporting the > learning > > > taking place. i rove the room from group to group, jotting down > > monitoring > > > notes (these days on an iPad), particularly noting the group > interactions > > > in order to make either immediate interventions on the spot, and for > > > consideration the next day. i couldn't understand how it came to pass > > that > > > the teacher never observed Mitchell's activity. > > > the richness of your descriptions, Donna, illustrated wonderfully the > > > complexities of social interactions within a classroom. i wondered, > like > > > Ed, what engagement expectations had the teacher presented - running a > > > classroom of collaborative groups in demanding in paying attention to a > > > multiplicity of details. as you noted, Donna, "At the forefront of all > > > pedagogical choices made by teachers should be explicit consideration > of > > > who is privileged and who is silenced and marginalized by such choices" > > (p. > > > 50). regardless of pedagogical practices, it is more than possible, it > is > > > quite likely that positioning will be undetected. i find myself > > > unconvinced my your essentially cause and effect statement that, > > > "Participation in collaborative learning may create roadblocks for some > > > students in the mathematical learning ..., or in the way in which they > > come > > > to see themselves as a mathematics learners or mathematically able" (p. > > > 50). Timothy J. Lensmire's research "When Children Write: > > > Critical Re-Visions of the Writing Workshop" (1994) noted that third > > > graders were petty, unkind prejudiced and selfish. Lensmire understood > > > these behaviors as a reflection of the difficulties, problems and > > tensions > > > with adult American society. Likewise, Karen Gallas' ethnography, > > > "Sometimes I Can Be Anything: Power, Gender, and Identity in a Primary > > > Classroom" (1997) demonstrates that, as Lensmire noted, students, in > this > > > case first and second graders, arrive in the classroom with a wide > array > > of > > > social practices that involve positioning of each other as well as > > > themselves. > > > you noted Gee's statement that "interactions have the potential of > > > infecting future interactions" (p. 50). and indeed i wondered what > > history > > > your participants Alice, Ella, Joanne, Mitchell and Will had brought to > > > this particular activity. my take on this ethnography is that it is > > > exceedingly rich, and that there is data embedded there that can > explain > > a > > > great deal more than the suggestions that "for educators is to keep in > > mind > > > that for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not > be > > > in their best interest" (p. 50). another conclusion could be that > > > students, like Mitchell, need additional resources and supports to work > > in > > > a collaborative group. in fact, the behaviors towards Mitchell of > Alice, > > > Ella and Joanne, suggests that they too fail to understand how to work > > > collaboratively. > > > > > > phillip > > > > > > > > > > > > Phillip White, PhD > > > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > > > Site Coordinator > > > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > > > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > > > or > > > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > On Behalf Of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:48 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Article on Positioning Theory > > > > > > I always enjoy reading about the dynamics of mathematics classrooms so > > > thanks to Donna. > > > > > > Some somewhat random thoughts (and as I am not entirely familiar with > the > > > terminology of positioning I may use it quite incorrectly) as I've been > > > thinking about related issues. > > > > > > Teachers are placed in classrooms (positioned?) with certain toolsets > and > > > among these is something that, in its various forms, is called > > > collaborative learning. This is, in a sense, neither good or bad; > > > collaborative leaning is simply a tool. When difficulties do arise, it > > is, > > > in a sense, because it becomes a one-size-fits-all method > (positioning?) > > > for inducing dialogue. When it works it is very very good, when it is > bad > > > it is horrid (smile). The question, one might say, it gives a sort of > > > answer to becomes in mathematics classrooms, at least, how to give > > > students opportunities to learn use publicly established ideas, > methods, > > > and language so as to make, validate, improve, and extend the > > mathematical > > > knowledge of the class. Is this necessary or desirable? It depends on > > your > > > point of view I guess. > > > > > > Teachers are placed in some quandaries if they get up from their desk > or > > > relinquish their place at the blackboard. Collaborative learning of > some > > > sort (and the group could be two) forces this issue somewhat. However, > it > > > also surfaces the need for some careful grouping and the possible need > to > > > publicize appropriately in the collective class. That is, 'positioning' > > > yourself as a teacher that supports some sort of collaborative work is > > > usefully discomforting (smile). > > > > > > Along with this, if done thoughtfully, comes the ability to manufacture > > > and juggle ruptures. Mitchell is a nice example of this although > > > unfortunately his rupture does not seem to make it out of his group (I > > tend > > > to see this, perhaps incorrectly, a misfire of the very idea of > > > collaborative). What I find quite interesting in this regard is Donna's > > (I > > > think I read this correctly) attempt to re-'position' Mitchell and the > > > pronounced resistance from Mitchell's colleagues and, in a sense, from > > > himself. Ruptures almost always arise with reasonable mathematics tasks > > and > > > are to be cherished (all this is an opinion) for their potential. > > However, > > > realizing that potential takes some serious teacherly skill and I'm not > > > sure that re-positioning Mitchell is the solution (he may need to do > this > > > himself with, one might say, encouragement) although re-positioning his > > > rupture may well be. > > > > > > Finally, for some reason, I tend to read into the dynamics of Mitchell > > and > > > his group Michel de Certeau's ideas of 'everyday' strategy and tactics. > > > Mitchell (and I am, in part, reading myself into this) is engaged in > > > tactical maneuvers (he says something to this regard) in the face of a > > > somewhat strategic view of mathematics embodied by his colleagues (the > > > omnipresent 'it'). He has also put something on the table that with a > > > little teacherly push (although this needs some careful thought out) > > could > > > usefully challenge that strategic view of mathematics. > > > > > > I have seen this activity done a number of times and when it 'succeeds' > > > (my opinion) it usually is because a rupture surfaces for the entire > > class. > > > What I don't know is how people position themselves, if they do, > > afterwards > > > (including the teacher) in the light of the ensuing dialogue. Very > > > interesting!! > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Ed Wall > > > > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Mar 27 11:09:31 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:09:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: higher education reform is just as complex with multiple competing systems of privilege, prerogative and power as is k-12 public education reform. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:52 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Sharing a Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Mar 27 11:30:12 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:30:12 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca>, Message-ID: greetings, again Donna - i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in your ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get across to you in my first posting. which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is exemplary, yet there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the three girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were actually in place. i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized ... at the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in classrooms but throughout all of society's points of collaboration - certainly the inherent political and social injustices of position was first brought to my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the activity itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to both essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory Dear Donna, The impressions I thought about were: 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive schema in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and directives, but that the emphasis is on the making. 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) and methods to show its "genesis". So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them in order to help them think about the planning but also the potential amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for the children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the salience of the mathematical concepts). Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the planning. Thank you for presenting the paper! Best, Huw From ewall@umich.edu Thu Mar 27 11:34:25 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:34:25 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: <52ed3bb994dd412f9913ef5a746a3375@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> <52ed3bb994dd412f9913ef5a746a3375@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <8A7141EA-39B7-4979-82A8-C685A4F9BB3A@umich.edu> Peter I seem to have said other than I wished and perhaps 'disjoint' was the wrong word. I see, as I do so often in the educational circles I frequent, a strong emphasis by the 'film makers' on the 'how' as opposed to the 'what.' 'Best' teaching practices, so to speak, have primarily to do with technique disjointly from content. One learns history in a setting that is presumably dynamic, collaborative and high tech; however, because of the emphasis on 'how,' what one learns is static, boring, and irrelevant. So I was actually asking should they be disjoint and, if not, what does this mean from both sides of, so to speak, the gap. Perhaps a case in point will clarify my wondering somewhat. I was (I've somewhat retired now) a K-12 classroom teacher, a mathematics teacher educator, and college mathematics teacher. You might say that as a K-12 classroom teacher and teacher educator my emphasis was a bit more on 'technique' - e.g. those problematic items the students in the video addressed - however, I have struggled to somewhat balance when I teach graduate mathematics. Oh, I address many of the student concerns from the film and I attempt to make the content more dynamic and relevant (yes you can do this in mathematics - smile), but I still feel a noticeable difference. Perhaps this is reasonable; graduate students are perhaps expected to be more content oriented. However, I am not entirely convinced as I look out at faces which are only slightly older than those that I saw as a K-12 teacher or teacher educator. I had, by the way, both experiences in history (although separated by several years which I suspect is a factor). However, it was a matter of content (although historically the content covered the same period of time). I hope this makes sense this time. It is not that I disagree as to what the video portrays. It is that I struggle conceptually with some of the well meant proposed solutions which seem to, to an extent, ignore content. Perhaps to paraphrase, I wonder if the message in the medium is all one should consider. Ed On Mar 27, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Ed, I wouldn't necessarily separate the what from the how (as McLuhan said, the medium is the message). When students sit in lecture halls with 400 students, as is the case in large American universities for 1-2 years, the content is reduced to what is testable, rather than what they make sense of. They are learning that learning is tedious and generally irrelevant. That's how I learned history in school, and thought that history was static, boring, and irrelevant. As an adult, all of my leisure reading is historical because I now read good historical writers, integrate the knowledge into my understanding of current events and thus reformulate my worldview, etc. I forget many of the facts (the object of lecture-hall assessment) but remember the synthesis of understanding. So yes, like the students in the brief film, I see them as disjointed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:32 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video > > Peter > > The video seemed to be, for the most part (and perhaps I misread it), how students should be learning not what students should be learning. I've often wondered - given some of the conversion I hear in educational circles - how disjoint these really are? > > Ed Wall > > On Mar 27, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o >> This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:44:46 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:44:46 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Positioning and Voice Message-ID: Jennifer wrote yesterday, >From my experience, it was only when I asked students explicitly to take responsibility for the voices of their peers that I made any headway with balancing positioning in groups ... and this was with uni students ... can we ask the same of younger children? ... both that some be more responsible to share their ideas and other be more responsible to listen and discuss? Best to all - jen Phillip, this was the comment that I was exploring further through expanding towards Bahktin and his understanding of the *object* to be addressed . Larry From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Thu Mar 27 11:52:14 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:52:14 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca>, Message-ID: <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> I'll have to think about some more about your ideas. My immediate thought when I read "essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit," was, no. More inline with my thinking is that it may be more that my assertions essentialize humans working together more generally (in the plural) rather than one student or any one person. It is a deficit of group dynamics rather than of an individual. It might be worth turning our attention to another student in the article, Will. Will's participation in the group was unchallenged despite his level of engagement. In early drafts of the paper, I talked about his productive privileging - also using productive in a dystopic sense. This didn't make it into the paper - which is an altogether different discussion about attempts to theorize; however, Will also illustrates a different type of deficit that is privilege by the group. It isn't Will or Mitchell that is a deficit. The deficit exists inherently in any collaborative endeavor. I should make clear that I started out as collaborative learning enthusiast. Indeed, my view is that much of individual's success in life is situated in their ability to work with others. That being said, my research illustrates that the learning that is intended and the learning that actually materializes is often quite different. So approaching collaborative learning form this lense is now different for me. Collaborative learning has pretty much been seen from pretty rosy glasses. It's been the slayer of teacher directed learning. My research suggests a more critical perspective is warranted. d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/27/2014 at 2:30 PM, in message , "White, Phillip" wrote: greetings, again Donna - i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in your ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get across to you in my first posting. which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is exemplary, yet there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the three girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were actually in place. i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized ... at the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in classrooms but throughout all of society's points of collaboration - certainly the inherent political and social injustices of position was first brought to my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the activity itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to both essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory Dear Donna, The impressions I thought about were: 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive schema in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and directives, but that the emphasis is on the making. 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) and methods to show its "genesis". So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them in order to help them think about the planning but also the potential amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for the children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the salience of the mathematical concepts). Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the planning. Thank you for presenting the paper! Best, Huw From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 27 11:57:25 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:57:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: <8A7141EA-39B7-4979-82A8-C685A4F9BB3A@umich.edu> References: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> <52ed3bb994dd412f9913ef5a746a3375@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <8A7141EA-39B7-4979-82A8-C685A4F9BB3A@umich.edu> Message-ID: I'm guessing that the answers to such questions are all situated. For instance, I don't teach large lecture hall courses, and so can teach differently from those who do. I can make more assumptions about students' readiness in graduate courses than in the 9th grade English classes I taught in the 1970s-1980s. And I could teach more progressively in Illinois high schools than can my Georgia teacher candidates. I'm not sure if I'm answering your concerns well; I've got 3 sessions to prepare for at AERA next week so am moving swiftly through most things. As an aside, here's a nice story about teaching math to people who hate math: http://mag.uchicago.edu/science-medicine/beauty-numbers -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video Peter I seem to have said other than I wished and perhaps 'disjoint' was the wrong word. I see, as I do so often in the educational circles I frequent, a strong emphasis by the 'film makers' on the 'how' as opposed to the 'what.' 'Best' teaching practices, so to speak, have primarily to do with technique disjointly from content. One learns history in a setting that is presumably dynamic, collaborative and high tech; however, because of the emphasis on 'how,' what one learns is static, boring, and irrelevant. So I was actually asking should they be disjoint and, if not, what does this mean from both sides of, so to speak, the gap. Perhaps a case in point will clarify my wondering somewhat. I was (I've somewhat retired now) a K-12 classroom teacher, a mathematics teacher educator, and college mathematics teacher. You might say that as a K-12 classroom teacher and teacher educator my emphasis was a bit more on 'technique' - e.g. those problematic items the students in the video addressed - however, I have struggled to somewhat balance when I teach graduate mathematics. Oh, I address many of the student concerns from the film and I attempt to make the content more dynamic and relevant (yes you can do this in mathematics - smile), but I still feel a noticeable difference. Perhaps this is reasonable; graduate students are perhaps expected to be more content oriented. However, I am not entirely convinced as I look out at faces which are only slightly older than those that I saw as a K-12 teacher or teacher educator. I had, by the way, both experiences in history (although separated by several years which I suspect is a factor). However, it was a matter of content (although historically the content covered the same period of time). I hope this makes sense this time. It is not that I disagree as to what the video portrays. It is that I struggle conceptually with some of the well meant proposed solutions which seem to, to an extent, ignore content. Perhaps to paraphrase, I wonder if the message in the medium is all one should consider. Ed On Mar 27, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Ed, I wouldn't necessarily separate the what from the how (as McLuhan said, the medium is the message). When students sit in lecture halls with 400 students, as is the case in large American universities for 1-2 years, the content is reduced to what is testable, rather than what they make sense of. They are learning that learning is tedious and generally irrelevant. That's how I learned history in school, and thought that history was static, boring, and irrelevant. As an adult, all of my leisure reading is historical because I now read good historical writers, integrate the knowledge into my understanding of current events and thus reformulate my worldview, etc. I forget many of the facts (the object of lecture-hall assessment) but remember the synthesis of understanding. So yes, like the students in the brief film, I see them as disjointed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:32 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video > > Peter > > The video seemed to be, for the most part (and perhaps I misread it), how students should be learning not what students should be learning. I've often wondered - given some of the conversion I hear in educational circles - how disjoint these really are? > > Ed Wall > > On Mar 27, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o >> This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. >> > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 11:58:07 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:58:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are several important (to me) issues being raised in this "thread" (more like a rope!). One is the view of Basil Bernstein as interpreted in the 1960's and as interpreted in the present circumstances, which include several decades of work by Hasan, Daniels, and others, to absolve Bernstein of the sin of proposing a deep seated psychological deficit as a result of a language/culture deficit. Somewhere there is a review of Class & Codes that Sylvia Scribner and I wrote dating back into the early-mid 1970's. I will try to retrieve it. If anyone has access to it from earlier discussions of this topic, please post. I cannot find it. The second is the Orwellian aspect of the research. I take 1984 to be the null hypothesis that we keep struggling to show is NOT the case, however close we might come to being in that situation. Thank Polysemy and the necessary creativity of language for the fact that Newspeak is not a possible human language. This problem is ubiquitous (as microsoft and google read this message should they care to). The third problem is an updated version of the anti-poverty programs of the '60's and 70's that sent social workers into the homes of poor people with books and toys and tried to teach them how to interact like middle class mothers with their children. The cultural imperialism/classism of that effort was obvious and painful -- but also unsuccessful -- so it was given up. And the poor&marginalized remained so. The culture of poverty has returned, this time with a biological rationale that makes it seem all the more urgent to provide more intense interventions early, With new digital technologies, it appears from scant reports I have read, that the data collected are word counts in conversation that distinguish speakers, can distinguish tv signal from spoken language, can distinguish turn taking dialogue. These data are not only easily collectable by the researchers, but easily provided as rapid feedback to caretakers. Note in the brief recent commentary I sent around the work of Bill Hall from the mid-1970's where he had kiddies wearing vests that broadcast to a researcher who then counted a lot of words. Old fashioned, but the findings were not. Its pretty scarey to see this trend suffusing the lives of children and their families. Plus the Mathew effect...... and,. its time for lunch. mike On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 27 March 2014 13:02, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the Bernstein's > > based (language +) deficit based educational approach to minority, low > > income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or Orwellian? What do > > you think? > > > > > > Ana > > > > > It depends on all those epiphenomenal things that aren't mentioned in the > article. ;) > > Its a bit funny that there's a discussion page on the NYTimes site, but > that its more interesting to discuss it here. Where'd that start? :) > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-word-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 > > > > Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > > > By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 > > > > PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Amid a political push for government-funded preschool > > for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that such programs > > actually start too late for the children most at risk. That is why Deisy > > Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of Guatemalan immigrants, is > > wearing a tiny recorder that captures every word she hears and utters > > inside her family's cramped apartment one day a week. > > > > Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous > > interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even before > > age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do those of the > > poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on > how > > to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is part of > > an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is aimed at the > > city's poorest residents and intended to reduce the knowledge gap long > > before school starts. It is among a number of such efforts being > undertaken > > throughout the country. > > > > Photo > > > > Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images of > > emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her 16-month-old > > daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times > > "When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator and points > to > > the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, 'Deisy, are you > hungry? > > You want cereal? Let's go look for the cereal,' " Stephanie Taveras, a > > Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head Start, told > > Deisy's mother in Spanish. "You do the responding for her now until she > has > > the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you." > > > > Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and > immigrants, > > do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing with > > their young children, is important. "I've had young moms say, 'I didn't > > know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could say words and > talk > > to me,' " said Susan Landry, director of the Children's Learning > Institute > > at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home > visiting > > program similar to the one here in Providence. > > > > Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. More > than > > half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by a > > parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis of > census > > data. > > > > To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their efforts > on > > the home. > > > > "In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their > > teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and > > reading to them," said Ann O'Leary, the director of Too Small to Fail, an > > initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the country. "We want to > > move the needle from this being an optional activity to a must-do > activity." > > > > Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation and > the > > Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as its > > initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do children of > any > > other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared for > at > > home by a relative during the day than are either white or > African-American > > children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to Fail, > > which has raised $10 million so far. > > > > Photo > > > > The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. > > Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times > > Last month, Too Small To Fail started an advertising campaign in > > conjunction with Univision, the Spanish-language television network, > > featuring B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In > one > > ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused > > playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. > > > > "Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you're > > preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable > > minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong > > foundation for their academic success," Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. > > > > Ms. O'Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety of > > media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, slogans > > like "Words bring your child's mind to life," "Talking is teaching" and > > "Feed me words" will appear on billboards, grocery carts and buses in > > low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The goal, Ms. O'Leary said, is > to > > emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as those > > intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put their babies > to > > sleep on their backs. > > > > As in Providence, several groups around the country -- some of > longstanding > > tenure -- are building home visiting programs and workshops to help > parents > > learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. > > > > "Every parent can talk," said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon at > the > > University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words Initiative, > > which oversees home visiting programs and public information campaigns. > > > > "It's the most empowering thing," said Dr. Suskind, who is securing > > funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended to > teach > > parents how they should talk with their children and why. > > > > Photo > > > > Deisy's mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a > > Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York > > Times > > Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term academic > prospects > > of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping poverty, > is a > > much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might > suggest. > > > > "When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it's like > > fine, vocabulary is good," said Bruce Fuller, a professor of education > and > > public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. "But there is a > > deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the dinner table > and > > talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the more > > colorful fabric of literacy and conversation." > > > > Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school students > > are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and two-thirds of public > > school kindergartners are behind in recognizing basic language sounds or > > identifying letters in print, officials see Providence Talks as just one > > part of a larger educational strategy. It is being funded by a $5 million > > grant from Bloomberg Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can > > eventually secure some public funding. > > > > "The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the possibility > > that you can get government funding for it," said Angel Taveras, > > Providence's first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head Start. > > > > Continue reading the main story > > Recent Comments > > > > ecolecon > > > > 17 hours ago > > "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on how to > > turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson."This... > > > > Ecojustice James > > > > 17 hours ago > > Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and > > understanding about their value can come through mentoring and sharing... > > > > manoflamancha > > > > 17 hours ago > > Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids > learning > > curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... > > > > See All Comments > > On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to the > > mayor) sat down with Deisy's parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a > third-grade > > education and spoke her native K'iche' when she emigrated from Guatemala > > seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many words she and > > her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a factory in the city, had > > spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. > > > > To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the home > > visitors give each family -- all of whom volunteered to participate -- a > tiny > > recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest worn > by > > the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from > > television or other electronics and live human conversations. Computer > > software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. > > > > Photo > > > > Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school > > kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit Katherine > > Taylor for The New York Times > > Privacy advocates and the Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil > > Liberties Union raised concerns about the recordings. In response, > > Providence officials disabled playback functions on the devices and > > promised that home visitors and others would never be able to listen to > the > > actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once they are > > uploaded for word-count analysis. > > > > Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the > short > > term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents to > talk > > more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in future > > academic performance. > > > > Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of communication > > as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. "It's not just saying, > > 'You need to say this amount of words to your kids every day and then > > they're going to be smart and successful,' " said Claire Lerner, director > > of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a nonprofit group that promotes > > healthy development in the early years. > > > > "We don't want parents talking at babies," Ms. Lerner said. "We want > > parents talking with babies." > > > > In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when > > parents and caregivers wait for -- and respond to -- the verbal > utterances of > > their children. > > > > On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she and > > Mr. Ixcuna had increased such "conversational turns" with Deisy. > > > > Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. "The next one will be even higher," she > > said. > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Mar 27 12:03:50 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:03:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75ac9e33702846cb9bd02a1ee26e3627@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I don't have downloading rights, but Mike and Sylvia's article is listed at http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00988157.1974.9977101#.UzR1_fldXTo -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:58 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: PIG Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word There are several important (to me) issues being raised in this "thread" (more like a rope!). One is the view of Basil Bernstein as interpreted in the 1960's and as interpreted in the present circumstances, which include several decades of work by Hasan, Daniels, and others, to absolve Bernstein of the sin of proposing a deep seated psychological deficit as a result of a language/culture deficit. Somewhere there is a review of Class & Codes that Sylvia Scribner and I wrote dating back into the early-mid 1970's. I will try to retrieve it. If anyone has access to it from earlier discussions of this topic, please post. I cannot find it. The second is the Orwellian aspect of the research. I take 1984 to be the null hypothesis that we keep struggling to show is NOT the case, however close we might come to being in that situation. Thank Polysemy and the necessary creativity of language for the fact that Newspeak is not a possible human language. This problem is ubiquitous (as microsoft and google read this message should they care to). The third problem is an updated version of the anti-poverty programs of the '60's and 70's that sent social workers into the homes of poor people with books and toys and tried to teach them how to interact like middle class mothers with their children. The cultural imperialism/classism of that effort was obvious and painful -- but also unsuccessful -- so it was given up. And the poor&marginalized remained so. The culture of poverty has returned, this time with a biological rationale that makes it seem all the more urgent to provide more intense interventions early, With new digital technologies, it appears from scant reports I have read, that the data collected are word counts in conversation that distinguish speakers, can distinguish tv signal from spoken language, can distinguish turn taking dialogue. These data are not only easily collectable by the researchers, but easily provided as rapid feedback to caretakers. Note in the brief recent commentary I sent around the work of Bill Hall from the mid-1970's where he had kiddies wearing vests that broadcast to a researcher who then counted a lot of words. Old fashioned, but the findings were not. Its pretty scarey to see this trend suffusing the lives of children and their families. Plus the Mathew effect...... and,. its time for lunch. mike On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 27 March 2014 13:02, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the > > Bernstein's based (language +) deficit based educational approach to > > minority, low income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or > > Orwellian? What do you think? > > > > > > Ana > > > > > It depends on all those epiphenomenal things that aren't mentioned in > the article. ;) > > Its a bit funny that there's a discussion page on the NYTimes site, > but that its more interesting to discuss it here. Where'd that start? > :) > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-w > ord-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 > > > > Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > > > By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 > > > > PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Amid a political push for government-funded > > preschool for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that > > such programs actually start too late for the children most at risk. > > That is why Deisy Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of > > Guatemalan immigrants, is wearing a tiny recorder that captures > > every word she hears and utters inside her family's cramped apartment one day a week. > > > > Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous > > interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even > > before age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do > > those of the poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing > > Deisy's parents on > how > > to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is > > part of an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is > > aimed at the city's poorest residents and intended to reduce the > > knowledge gap long before school starts. It is among a number of > > such efforts being > undertaken > > throughout the country. > > > > Photo > > > > Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images > > of emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her > > 16-month-old daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York > > Times "When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator > > and points > to > > the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, 'Deisy, are you > hungry? > > You want cereal? Let's go look for the cereal,' " Stephanie Taveras, > > a Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head > > Start, told Deisy's mother in Spanish. "You do the responding for > > her now until she > has > > the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you." > > > > Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and > immigrants, > > do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing > > with their young children, is important. "I've had young moms say, > > 'I didn't know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could > > say words and > talk > > to me,' " said Susan Landry, director of the Children's Learning > Institute > > at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home > visiting > > program similar to the one here in Providence. > > > > Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. > > More > than > > half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by > > a parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis > > of > census > > data. > > > > To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their > > efforts > on > > the home. > > > > "In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their > > teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and > > reading to them," said Ann O'Leary, the director of Too Small to > > Fail, an initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the > > country. "We want to move the needle from this being an optional > > activity to a must-do > activity." > > > > Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation > > and > the > > Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as > > its initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do > > children of > any > > other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared > > for > at > > home by a relative during the day than are either white or > African-American > > children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to > > Fail, which has raised $10 million so far. > > > > Photo > > > > The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the child. > > Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Last month, Too Small > > To Fail started an advertising campaign in conjunction with > > Univision, the Spanish-language television network, featuring > > B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In > one > > ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused > > playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. > > > > "Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you're > > preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable > > minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong > > foundation for their academic success," Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. > > > > Ms. O'Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety > > of media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, > > slogans like "Words bring your child's mind to life," "Talking is > > teaching" and "Feed me words" will appear on billboards, grocery > > carts and buses in low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The > > goal, Ms. O'Leary said, is > to > > emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as > > those intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put > > their babies > to > > sleep on their backs. > > > > As in Providence, several groups around the country -- some of > longstanding > > tenure -- are building home visiting programs and workshops to help > parents > > learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. > > > > "Every parent can talk," said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon > > at > the > > University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words > > Initiative, which oversees home visiting programs and public information campaigns. > > > > "It's the most empowering thing," said Dr. Suskind, who is securing > > funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended > > to > teach > > parents how they should talk with their children and why. > > > > Photo > > > > Deisy's mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a > > Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New > > York Times Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term > > academic > prospects > > of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping > > poverty, > is a > > much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might > suggest. > > > > "When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it's > > like fine, vocabulary is good," said Bruce Fuller, a professor of > > education > and > > public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. "But there > > is a deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the > > dinner table > and > > talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the > > more colorful fabric of literacy and conversation." > > > > Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school > > students are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and > > two-thirds of public school kindergartners are behind in recognizing > > basic language sounds or identifying letters in print, officials see > > Providence Talks as just one part of a larger educational strategy. > > It is being funded by a $5 million grant from Bloomberg > > Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can eventually secure some public funding. > > > > "The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the > > possibility that you can get government funding for it," said Angel > > Taveras, Providence's first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head Start. > > > > Continue reading the main story > > Recent Comments > > > > ecolecon > > > > 17 hours ago > > "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on > > how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson."This... > > > > Ecojustice James > > > > 17 hours ago > > Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and > > understanding about their value can come through mentoring and sharing... > > > > manoflamancha > > > > 17 hours ago > > Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids > learning > > curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... > > > > See All Comments > > On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to > > the > > mayor) sat down with Deisy's parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a > third-grade > > education and spoke her native K'iche' when she emigrated from > > Guatemala seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many > > words she and her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a > > factory in the city, had spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. > > > > To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the > > home visitors give each family -- all of whom volunteered to > > participate -- a > tiny > > recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest > > worn > by > > the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from > > television or other electronics and live human conversations. > > Computer software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. > > > > Photo > > > > Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school > > kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit > > Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Privacy advocates and the > > Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union raised > > concerns about the recordings. In response, Providence officials > > disabled playback functions on the devices and promised that home > > visitors and others would never be able to listen to > the > > actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once > > they are uploaded for word-count analysis. > > > > Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the > short > > term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents > > to > talk > > more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in > > future academic performance. > > > > Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of > > communication as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. "It's > > not just saying, 'You need to say this amount of words to your kids > > every day and then they're going to be smart and successful,' " said > > Claire Lerner, director of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a > > nonprofit group that promotes healthy development in the early years. > > > > "We don't want parents talking at babies," Ms. Lerner said. "We want > > parents talking with babies." > > > > In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when > > parents and caregivers wait for -- and respond to -- the verbal > utterances of > > their children. > > > > On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she > > and Mr. Ixcuna had increased such "conversational turns" with Deisy. > > > > Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. "The next one will be even higher," > > she said. > > > > > > > From ewall@umich.edu Thu Mar 27 12:22:27 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: References: <52396308-BD82-4FB2-8BCF-EA7C4F025288@umich.edu> <52ed3bb994dd412f9913ef5a746a3375@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <8A7141EA-39B7-4979-82A8-C685A4F9BB3A@umich.edu> Message-ID: Peter I didn't expect an answer (smile) and it is, of course, situated. Thanks for the link (I may know Judith). Yes in certain situations, I do things in a similar fashion. However, it is this qualification I was wondering about. Enjoy AERA! Ed On Mar 27, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I'm guessing that the answers to such questions are all situated. For instance, I don't teach large lecture hall courses, and so can teach differently from those who do. I can make more assumptions about students' readiness in graduate courses than in the 9th grade English classes I taught in the 1970s-1980s. And I could teach more progressively in Illinois high schools than can my Georgia teacher candidates. > > I'm not sure if I'm answering your concerns well; I've got 3 sessions to prepare for at AERA next week so am moving swiftly through most things. > > As an aside, here's a nice story about teaching math to people who hate math: http://mag.uchicago.edu/science-medicine/beauty-numbers > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:34 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video > > Peter > > I seem to have said other than I wished and perhaps 'disjoint' was the wrong word. I see, as I do so often in the educational circles I frequent, a strong emphasis by the 'film makers' on the 'how' as opposed to the 'what.' 'Best' teaching practices, so to speak, have primarily to do with technique disjointly from content. One learns history in a setting that is presumably dynamic, collaborative and high tech; however, because of the emphasis on 'how,' what one learns is static, boring, and irrelevant. So I was actually asking should they be disjoint and, if not, what does this mean from both sides of, so to speak, the gap. > Perhaps a case in point will clarify my wondering somewhat. I was (I've somewhat retired now) a K-12 classroom teacher, a mathematics teacher educator, and college mathematics teacher. You might say that as a K-12 classroom teacher and teacher educator my emphasis was a bit more on 'technique' - e.g. those problematic items the students in the video addressed - however, I have struggled to somewhat balance when I teach graduate mathematics. Oh, I address many of the student concerns from the film and I attempt to make the content more dynamic and relevant (yes you can do this in mathematics - smile), but I still feel a noticeable difference. Perhaps this is reasonable; graduate students are perhaps expected to be more content oriented. However, I am not entirely convinced as I look out at faces which are only slightly older than those that I saw as a K-12 teacher or teacher educator. > > I had, by the way, both experiences in history (although separated by several years which I suspect is a factor). However, it was a matter of content (although historically the content covered the same period of time). > > I hope this makes sense this time. It is not that I disagree as to what the video portrays. It is that I struggle conceptually with some of the well meant proposed solutions which seem to, to an extent, ignore content. Perhaps to paraphrase, I wonder if the message in the medium is all one should consider. > > Ed > > On Mar 27, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> Ed, I wouldn't necessarily separate the what from the how (as McLuhan said, the medium is the message). When students sit in lecture halls with 400 students, as is the case in large American universities for 1-2 years, the content is reduced to what is testable, rather than what they make sense of. They are learning that learning is tedious and generally irrelevant. That's how I learned history in school, and thought that history was static, boring, and irrelevant. As an adult, all of my leisure reading is historical because I now read good historical writers, integrate the knowledge into my understanding of current events and thus reformulate my worldview, etc. I forget many of the facts (the object of lecture-hall assessment) but remember the synthesis of understanding. So yes, like the students in the brief film, I see them as disjointed. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:32 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: Sharing a Video >> >> Peter >> >> The video seemed to be, for the most part (and perhaps I misread it), how students should be learning not what students should be learning. I've often wondered - given some of the conversion I hear in educational circles - how disjoint these really are? >> >> Ed Wall >> >> On Mar 27, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o >>> This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on this list. >>> >> >> >> > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 12:47:43 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:47:43 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Donna, I wonder if you could speak more about the endemic nature of failure in collaboration? (and/or the inherent deficit of ANY collaboration?) Perhaps some more examples of the kind of thing that you are seeing as being systematic and consistent across all (nearly all?) instances of collaboration? If I'm following you, your key point is that there may be (always will be?) people for whom collaboration will not work and for whom there is no such thing as a good collaboration (e.g., p. 50 - "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best interests"). Do you feel that there is no way to help students (both the alienated and the alienating) to be better collaborators? And do you feel that these are inherent characteristics of these students or does it matter what types of groups they are being asked to collaborate with? Am I missing your point entirely? (and I can't help but wonder about the larger cultural contexts in which these social contexts are built and the degree to which the failure of collaboration might actually be pointing us to a larger failure - a system(at)ic social/cultural failure in which social exclusion is demanded by our dominant social system and the exclusions observed in classroom collaborations are just children doing what they have learned is "normal"; but maybe things are different in Canada?). My rose colored collaboration glasses seem to be stuck to my head and, much as I try, I can't get them off. Perhaps you can help me remove them? -greg On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > I'll have to think about some more about your ideas. My immediate thought > when I read "essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a > deficit," was, no. More inline with my thinking is that it may be more that > my assertions essentialize humans working together more generally (in the > plural) rather than one student or any one person. It is a deficit of group > dynamics rather than of an individual. > > It might be worth turning our attention to another student in the article, > Will. Will's participation in the group was unchallenged despite his level > of engagement. In early drafts of the paper, I talked about his productive > privileging - also using productive in a dystopic sense. This didn't make > it into the paper - which is an altogether different discussion about > attempts to theorize; however, Will also illustrates a different type of > deficit that is privilege by the group. It isn't Will or Mitchell that is a > deficit. The deficit exists inherently in any collaborative endeavor. > > I should make clear that I started out as collaborative learning > enthusiast. Indeed, my view is that much of individual's success in life is > situated in their ability to work with others. That being said, my research > illustrates that the learning that is intended and the learning that > actually materializes is often quite different. So approaching > collaborative learning form this lense is now different for me. > Collaborative learning has pretty much been seen from pretty rosy glasses. > It's been the slayer of teacher directed learning. My research suggests a > more critical perspective is warranted. > > d. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/27/2014 at 2:30 PM, in message > , "White, > Phillip" wrote: > > greetings, again Donna - > > i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in your > ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get across to you > in my first posting. > > which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some > students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best > interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is exemplary, yet > there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. > as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty > years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the three > girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were actually in > place. > > i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly > connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized ... at > the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in classrooms but > throughout all of society's points of collaboration - certainly the > inherent political and social injustices of position was first brought to > my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. > > what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who > experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the activity > itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to both > essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > > Dear Donna, > > The impressions I thought about were: > > 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is > committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. > That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. > > 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive schema > in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the > work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various > operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and directives, > but that the emphasis is on the making. > > 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) > and methods to show its "genesis". > > So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with > planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them in > order to help them think about the planning but also the potential > amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". > > I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for the > children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this > complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the > salience of the mathematical concepts). > > Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to > calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the > mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the > planning. > > Thank you for presenting the paper! > > Best, > Huw > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Mar 27 12:41:42 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:41:42 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Positioning and Voice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20140327194141.5197965.25179.6767@ucdenver.edu> Many thanks, Larry. I'm confused how i missed it - however, in my experience I would answer Jennifer's question in the affirmative. In my experience, again, this is quite positive with primary age students. Thanks again. P Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. From: Larry Purss Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:46 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Positioning and Voice Jennifer wrote yesterday, >From my experience, it was only when I asked students explicitly to take responsibility for the voices of their peers that I made any headway with balancing positioning in groups ... and this was with uni students ... can we ask the same of younger children? ... both that some be more responsible to share their ideas and other be more responsible to listen and discuss? Best to all - jen Phillip, this was the comment that I was exploring further through expanding towards Bahktin and his understanding of the *object* to be addressed . Larry From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 13:14:08 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:14:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word In-Reply-To: <75ac9e33702846cb9bd02a1ee26e3627@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <75ac9e33702846cb9bd02a1ee26e3627@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks Peter-- Hopefully someone's library still has access to T&F. UCSD dropped their outrageous package and opted for selected journals so I do not have access. There is a pdf around somewhere, I'm guessing mike On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I don't have downloading rights, but Mike and Sylvia's article is listed > at > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00988157.1974.9977101#.UzR1_fldXTo > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:58 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: PIG > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > There are several important (to me) issues being raised in this "thread" > (more like a rope!). > > One is the view of Basil Bernstein as interpreted in the 1960's and as > interpreted in the present circumstances, which include several decades of > work by Hasan, Daniels, and others, to absolve Bernstein of the sin of > proposing a deep seated psychological deficit as a result of a > language/culture deficit. Somewhere there is a review of Class & Codes that > Sylvia Scribner and I wrote dating back into the early-mid 1970's. I will > try to retrieve it. If anyone has access to it from earlier discussions of > this topic, please post. I cannot find it. > > The second is the Orwellian aspect of the research. I take 1984 to be the > null hypothesis that we keep struggling to show is NOT the case, however > close we might come to being in that situation. Thank Polysemy and the > necessary creativity of language for the fact that Newspeak is not a > possible human language. This problem is ubiquitous (as microsoft and > google read this message should they care to). > > The third problem is an updated version of the anti-poverty programs of > the '60's and 70's that sent social workers into the homes of poor people > with books and toys and tried to teach them how to interact like middle > class mothers with their children. The cultural imperialism/classism of > that effort was obvious and painful -- but also unsuccessful -- so it was > given up. And the poor&marginalized remained so. > > The culture of poverty has returned, this time with a biological rationale > that makes it seem all the more urgent to provide more intense > interventions early, With new digital technologies, it appears from scant > reports I have read, that the data collected are word counts in > conversation that distinguish speakers, can distinguish tv signal from > spoken language, can distinguish turn taking dialogue. These data are not > only easily collectable by the researchers, but easily provided as rapid > feedback to caretakers. > > Note in the brief recent commentary I sent around the work of Bill Hall > from the mid-1970's where he had kiddies wearing vests that broadcast to a > researcher who then counted a lot of words. Old fashioned, but the findings > were not. > > Its pretty scarey to see this trend suffusing the lives of children and > their families. Plus the Mathew effect...... and,. its time for lunch. > > mike > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Huw Lloyd >wrote: > > > On 27 March 2014 13:02, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the > > > Bernstein's based (language +) deficit based educational approach to > > > minority, low income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or > > > Orwellian? What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > It depends on all those epiphenomenal things that aren't mentioned in > > the article. ;) > > > > Its a bit funny that there's a discussion page on the NYTimes site, > > but that its more interesting to discuss it here. Where'd that start? > > :) > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-w > > ord-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 > > > > > > Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > > > > > By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 > > > > > > PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Amid a political push for government-funded > > > preschool for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that > > > such programs actually start too late for the children most at risk. > > > That is why Deisy Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of > > > Guatemalan immigrants, is wearing a tiny recorder that captures > > > every word she hears and utters inside her family's cramped apartment > one day a week. > > > > > > Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous > > > interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even > > > before age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do > > > those of the poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing > > > Deisy's parents on > > how > > > to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is > > > part of an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is > > > aimed at the city's poorest residents and intended to reduce the > > > knowledge gap long before school starts. It is among a number of > > > such efforts being > > undertaken > > > throughout the country. > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images > > > of emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her > > > 16-month-old daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York > > > Times "When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator > > > and points > > to > > > the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, 'Deisy, are you > > hungry? > > > You want cereal? Let's go look for the cereal,' " Stephanie Taveras, > > > a Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head > > > Start, told Deisy's mother in Spanish. "You do the responding for > > > her now until she > > has > > > the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you." > > > > > > Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and > > immigrants, > > > do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing > > > with their young children, is important. "I've had young moms say, > > > 'I didn't know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could > > > say words and > > talk > > > to me,' " said Susan Landry, director of the Children's Learning > > Institute > > > at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home > > visiting > > > program similar to the one here in Providence. > > > > > > Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. > > > More > > than > > > half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by > > > a parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis > > > of > > census > > > data. > > > > > > To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their > > > efforts > > on > > > the home. > > > > > > "In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their > > > teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and > > > reading to them," said Ann O'Leary, the director of Too Small to > > > Fail, an initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the > > > country. "We want to move the needle from this being an optional > > > activity to a must-do > > activity." > > > > > > Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation > > > and > > the > > > Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as > > > its initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do > > > children of > > any > > > other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared > > > for > > at > > > home by a relative during the day than are either white or > > African-American > > > children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to > > > Fail, which has raised $10 million so far. > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the > child. > > > Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Last month, Too Small > > > To Fail started an advertising campaign in conjunction with > > > Univision, the Spanish-language television network, featuring > > > B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In > > one > > > ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused > > > playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. > > > > > > "Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you're > > > preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable > > > minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong > > > foundation for their academic success," Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. > > > > > > Ms. O'Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety > > > of media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, > > > slogans like "Words bring your child's mind to life," "Talking is > > > teaching" and "Feed me words" will appear on billboards, grocery > > > carts and buses in low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The > > > goal, Ms. O'Leary said, is > > to > > > emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as > > > those intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put > > > their babies > > to > > > sleep on their backs. > > > > > > As in Providence, several groups around the country -- some of > > longstanding > > > tenure -- are building home visiting programs and workshops to help > > parents > > > learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. > > > > > > "Every parent can talk," said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon > > > at > > the > > > University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words > > > Initiative, which oversees home visiting programs and public > information campaigns. > > > > > > "It's the most empowering thing," said Dr. Suskind, who is securing > > > funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended > > > to > > teach > > > parents how they should talk with their children and why. > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > Deisy's mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a > > > Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New > > > York Times Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term > > > academic > > prospects > > > of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping > > > poverty, > > is a > > > much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might > > suggest. > > > > > > "When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it's > > > like fine, vocabulary is good," said Bruce Fuller, a professor of > > > education > > and > > > public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. "But there > > > is a deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the > > > dinner table > > and > > > talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the > > > more colorful fabric of literacy and conversation." > > > > > > Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school > > > students are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and > > > two-thirds of public school kindergartners are behind in recognizing > > > basic language sounds or identifying letters in print, officials see > > > Providence Talks as just one part of a larger educational strategy. > > > It is being funded by a $5 million grant from Bloomberg > > > Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can eventually secure > some public funding. > > > > > > "The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the > > > possibility that you can get government funding for it," said Angel > > > Taveras, Providence's first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head Start. > > > > > > Continue reading the main story > > > Recent Comments > > > > > > ecolecon > > > > > > 17 hours ago > > > "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on > > > how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson."This... > > > > > > Ecojustice James > > > > > > 17 hours ago > > > Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and > > > understanding about their value can come through mentoring and > sharing... > > > > > > manoflamancha > > > > > > 17 hours ago > > > Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids > > learning > > > curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... > > > > > > See All Comments > > > On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to > > > the > > > mayor) sat down with Deisy's parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a > > third-grade > > > education and spoke her native K'iche' when she emigrated from > > > Guatemala seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many > > > words she and her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a > > > factory in the city, had spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. > > > > > > To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the > > > home visitors give each family -- all of whom volunteered to > > > participate -- a > > tiny > > > recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest > > > worn > > by > > > the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from > > > television or other electronics and live human conversations. > > > Computer software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school > > > kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit > > > Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Privacy advocates and the > > > Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union raised > > > concerns about the recordings. In response, Providence officials > > > disabled playback functions on the devices and promised that home > > > visitors and others would never be able to listen to > > the > > > actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once > > > they are uploaded for word-count analysis. > > > > > > Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the > > short > > > term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents > > > to > > talk > > > more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in > > > future academic performance. > > > > > > Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of > > > communication as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. "It's > > > not just saying, 'You need to say this amount of words to your kids > > > every day and then they're going to be smart and successful,' " said > > > Claire Lerner, director of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a > > > nonprofit group that promotes healthy development in the early years. > > > > > > "We don't want parents talking at babies," Ms. Lerner said. "We want > > > parents talking with babies." > > > > > > In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when > > > parents and caregivers wait for -- and respond to -- the verbal > > utterances of > > > their children. > > > > > > On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she > > > and Mr. Ixcuna had increased such "conversational turns" with Deisy. > > > > > > Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. "The next one will be even higher," > > > she said. > > > > > > > > > > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 13:31:59 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:31:59 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word In-Reply-To: References: <75ac9e33702846cb9bd02a1ee26e3627@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: I searched Google Scholar and could not find a free copy. However, I came across this description of a book written at the same time in 2000 Basil B. Bernstein Rowman & Littlefield, Jan 1, 2000 - Education- 229 pages 1 Review This book, the fifth in the series developing Bernstein s code theory, presents a lucid account of the most recent developments of this code theory and, importantly, shows the close relation between this development and the empirical research to which the theory has given rise. Pedagogy, Symbolic Control and Identity addresses the central issue of Bernstein s research project: are there any general principles underlying the transformation of knowledge into pedagogic communication? In Bernstein s view, we have studied only pedagogic messages and their institutional and ideological base. We have not studied the nature of the relay which makes messages possible. The discussion of this research forms part II of this book, where Bernstein makes explicit the methodology of the research and, in particular, the crucial significance of languages of description. This new edition of Bernstein's classic book is updated with three new chapters: on discourse, on official knowledge and identities, and a wide ranging interview with Joseph Solomon. The new edition, published as Volume Five in his Class, Codes, and Control Series, builds on the continuing tradition of Bernstein's highly influential work on class, education, language, and society. On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > Thanks Peter-- Hopefully someone's library still has access to T&F. UCSD > dropped their outrageous package and opted for selected journals so I do > not have access. There is a pdf around somewhere, I'm guessing > mike > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I don't have downloading rights, but Mike and Sylvia's article is listed > > at > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00988157.1974.9977101#.UzR1_fldXTo > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 2:58 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Cc: PIG > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > > > There are several important (to me) issues being raised in this "thread" > > (more like a rope!). > > > > One is the view of Basil Bernstein as interpreted in the 1960's and as > > interpreted in the present circumstances, which include several decades > of > > work by Hasan, Daniels, and others, to absolve Bernstein of the sin of > > proposing a deep seated psychological deficit as a result of a > > language/culture deficit. Somewhere there is a review of Class & Codes > that > > Sylvia Scribner and I wrote dating back into the early-mid 1970's. I will > > try to retrieve it. If anyone has access to it from earlier discussions > of > > this topic, please post. I cannot find it. > > > > The second is the Orwellian aspect of the research. I take 1984 to be the > > null hypothesis that we keep struggling to show is NOT the case, however > > close we might come to being in that situation. Thank Polysemy and the > > necessary creativity of language for the fact that Newspeak is not a > > possible human language. This problem is ubiquitous (as microsoft and > > google read this message should they care to). > > > > The third problem is an updated version of the anti-poverty programs of > > the '60's and 70's that sent social workers into the homes of poor people > > with books and toys and tried to teach them how to interact like middle > > class mothers with their children. The cultural imperialism/classism of > > that effort was obvious and painful -- but also unsuccessful -- so it was > > given up. And the poor&marginalized remained so. > > > > The culture of poverty has returned, this time with a biological > rationale > > that makes it seem all the more urgent to provide more intense > > interventions early, With new digital technologies, it appears from scant > > reports I have read, that the data collected are word counts in > > conversation that distinguish speakers, can distinguish tv signal from > > spoken language, can distinguish turn taking dialogue. These data are not > > only easily collectable by the researchers, but easily provided as rapid > > feedback to caretakers. > > > > Note in the brief recent commentary I sent around the work of Bill Hall > > from the mid-1970's where he had kiddies wearing vests that broadcast to > a > > researcher who then counted a lot of words. Old fashioned, but the > findings > > were not. > > > > Its pretty scarey to see this trend suffusing the lives of children and > > their families. Plus the Mathew effect...... and,. its time for lunch. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Huw Lloyd > >wrote: > > > > > On 27 March 2014 13:02, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > From Yesterday's New York Times: new ways to implement the > > > > Bernstein's based (language +) deficit based educational approach to > > > > minority, low income and immigrant families. Is it educational, or > > > > Orwellian? What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > It depends on all those epiphenomenal things that aren't mentioned in > > > the article. ;) > > > > > > Its a bit funny that there's a discussion page on the NYTimes site, > > > but that its more interesting to discuss it here. Where'd that start? > > > :) > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/us/trying-to-close-a-knowledge-gap-w > > > ord-by-word.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 > > > > > > > > Trying to Close a Knowledge Gap, Word by Word > > > > > > > > By MOTOKO RICHMARCH 25, 2014 > > > > > > > > PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Amid a political push for government-funded > > > > preschool for 4-year-olds, a growing number of experts fear that > > > > such programs actually start too late for the children most at risk. > > > > That is why Deisy Ixcuna-Gonz?lez, the 16-month-old daughter of > > > > Guatemalan immigrants, is wearing a tiny recorder that captures > > > > every word she hears and utters inside her family's cramped apartment > > one day a week. > > > > > > > > Recent research shows that brain development is buoyed by continuous > > > > interaction with parents and caregivers from birth, and that even > > > > before age 2, the children of the wealthy know more words than do > > > > those of the poor. So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing > > > > Deisy's parents on > > > how > > > > to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language lesson. It is > > > > part of an ambitious campaign, known as Providence Talks, that is > > > > aimed at the city's poorest residents and intended to reduce the > > > > knowledge gap long before school starts. It is among a number of > > > > such efforts being > > > undertaken > > > > throughout the country. > > > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > > > Mar?a Gonz?lez, left, a participant in Providence Talks, with images > > > > of emotions that are intended to encourage dialogue with her > > > > 16-month-old daughter. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York > > > > Times "When she grabs your hand and brings you to the refrigerator > > > > and points > > > to > > > > the cabinet, that is an opportunity for you to say, 'Deisy, are you > > > hungry? > > > > You want cereal? Let's go look for the cereal,' " Stephanie Taveras, > > > > a Providence Talks home visitor who also works with Early Head > > > > Start, told Deisy's mother in Spanish. "You do the responding for > > > > her now until she > > > has > > > > the vocabulary, and she will be hearing you." > > > > > > > > Educators say that many parents, especially among the poor and > > > immigrants, > > > > do not know that talking, as well as reading, singing and playing > > > > with their young children, is important. "I've had young moms say, > > > > 'I didn't know I was supposed to talk to my baby until they could > > > > say words and > > > talk > > > > to me,' " said Susan Landry, director of the Children's Learning > > > Institute > > > > at the University of Texas in Houston, which has developed a home > > > visiting > > > > program similar to the one here in Providence. > > > > > > > > Close to a quarter of all American children now live in poverty. > > > > More > > > than > > > > half of all children age 2 and under are cared for during the day by > > > > a parent or relative, according to a McCormick Foundation analysis > > > > of > > > census > > > > data. > > > > > > > > To reach those children, educators say they need to focus their > > > > efforts > > > on > > > > the home. > > > > > > > > "In the same way that we say you should feed your child, brush their > > > > teeth, you should be stimulating their brain by talking, singing and > > > > reading to them," said Ann O'Leary, the director of Too Small to > > > > Fail, an initiative aimed at closing the word gap across the > > > > country. "We want to move the needle from this being an optional > > > > activity to a must-do > > > activity." > > > > > > > > Too Small to Fail, a joint effort of the nonprofit Next Generation > > > > and > > > the > > > > Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation, chose Latino children as > > > > its initial focus because more of them live in poverty than do > > > > children of > > > any > > > > other racial or ethnic group. They are also more likely to be cared > > > > for > > > at > > > > home by a relative during the day than are either white or > > > African-American > > > > children. Hillary Rodham Clinton is the co-founder of Too Small to > > > > Fail, which has raised $10 million so far. > > > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > > > The Lena recording device can be inserted into a vest worn by the > > child. > > > > Credit Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Last month, Too Small > > > > To Fail started an advertising campaign in conjunction with > > > > Univision, the Spanish-language television network, featuring > > > > B?rbara Bermudo, the host of a popular afternoon program. In > > > one > > > > ad, Ms. Bermudo appears with her young daughters in a pink-infused > > > > playroom, baking in the kitchen and then reading them a book. > > > > > > > > "Taking fifteen minutes a day to communicate with them while you're > > > > preparing dinner or reading to them at bedtime are the most valuable > > > > minutes for developing their vocabulary skills and creating a strong > > > > foundation for their academic success," Ms. Bermudo tells viewers. > > > > > > > > Ms. O'Leary said Too Small to Fail would experiment with a variety > > > > of media messages in different cities. Starting later this spring, > > > > slogans like "Words bring your child's mind to life," "Talking is > > > > teaching" and "Feed me words" will appear on billboards, grocery > > > > carts and buses in low-income neighborhoods in Tulsa, Okla. The > > > > goal, Ms. O'Leary said, is > > > to > > > > emulate the success of other public information campaigns such as > > > > those intended to reduce crib deaths by persuading parents to put > > > > their babies > > > to > > > > sleep on their backs. > > > > > > > > As in Providence, several groups around the country -- some of > > > longstanding > > > > tenure -- are building home visiting programs and workshops to help > > > parents > > > > learn not only that they should talk, but how to do so. > > > > > > > > "Every parent can talk," said Dr. Dana Suskind, a pediatric surgeon > > > > at > > > the > > > > University of Chicago who founded the Thirty Million Words > > > > Initiative, which oversees home visiting programs and public > > information campaigns. > > > > > > > > "It's the most empowering thing," said Dr. Suskind, who is securing > > > > funding for a randomized trial of a home-based curriculum intended > > > > to > > > teach > > > > parents how they should talk with their children and why. > > > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > > > Deisy's mother, Mar?a Gonz?lez, spoke with with Stephanie Taveras, a > > > > Providence Talks home visitor. Credit Katherine Taylor for The New > > > > York Times Advocates for the poor say that improving the long-term > > > > academic > > > prospects > > > > of disadvantaged children, much less their chance of escaping > > > > poverty, > > > is a > > > > much more complicated proposition than some of these programs might > > > suggest. > > > > > > > > "When Hillary Clinton runs around trying to close the word gap, it's > > > > like fine, vocabulary is good," said Bruce Fuller, a professor of > > > > education > > > and > > > > public policy at the University of California, Berkeley. "But there > > > > is a deeper commitment to literacy and conversation around the > > > > dinner table > > > and > > > > talking to kids about ideas and political controversies that is the > > > > more colorful fabric of literacy and conversation." > > > > > > > > Here in Providence, where more than 85 percent of public school > > > > students are eligible for federally subsidized lunches and > > > > two-thirds of public school kindergartners are behind in recognizing > > > > basic language sounds or identifying letters in print, officials see > > > > Providence Talks as just one part of a larger educational strategy. > > > > It is being funded by a $5 million grant from Bloomberg > > > > Philanthropies, and officials hope that they can eventually secure > > some public funding. > > > > > > > > "The more effective we can show that it is, the higher the > > > > possibility that you can get government funding for it," said Angel > > > > Taveras, Providence's first Latino mayor and a graduate of Head > Start. > > > > > > > > Continue reading the main story > > > > Recent Comments > > > > > > > > ecolecon > > > > > > > > 17 hours ago > > > > "So the recorder acts as a tool for instructing Deisy's parents on > > > > how to turn even a visit to the kitchen into a language > lesson."This... > > > > > > > > Ecojustice James > > > > > > > > 17 hours ago > > > > Technology is helpful, so too having literacy materials around, and > > > > understanding about their value can come through mentoring and > > sharing... > > > > > > > > manoflamancha > > > > > > > > 17 hours ago > > > > Poverty is not the problem, rather poor parents. To increase kids > > > learning > > > > curve....you have to motivate Americans parents to learn how to... > > > > > > > > See All Comments > > > > On a chilly afternoon this month, Ms. Taveras (who is not related to > > > > the > > > > mayor) sat down with Deisy's parents. Mar?a Gonz?lez, who has a > > > third-grade > > > > education and spoke her native K'iche' when she emigrated from > > > > Guatemala seven years ago, reviewed a bar chart that showed how many > > > > words she and her husband, Rafael Ixcuna, who packs fruit at a > > > > factory in the city, had spoken to Deisy on a day the previous week. > > > > > > > > To help give parents feedback and provide data for researchers, the > > > > home visitors give each family -- all of whom volunteered to > > > > participate -- a > > > tiny > > > > recording device, known as a Lena, that can be inserted into a vest > > > > worn > > > by > > > > the child. The recorders distinguish between words overheard from > > > > television or other electronics and live human conversations. > > > > Computer software then analyzes the numbers of words spoken. > > > > > > > > Photo > > > > > > > > Angel Taveras, the mayor of Providence, where most public school > > > > kindergartners are considered behind in language skills. Credit > > > > Katherine Taylor for The New York Times Privacy advocates and the > > > > Rhode Island chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union raised > > > > concerns about the recordings. In response, Providence officials > > > > disabled playback functions on the devices and promised that home > > > > visitors and others would never be able to listen to > > > the > > > > actual conversations. The recordings are immediately erased once > > > > they are uploaded for word-count analysis. > > > > > > > > Researchers say such recordings will help them track results. In the > > > short > > > > term, scholars will evaluate whether the home visits prompt parents > > > > to > > > talk > > > > more. In the longer term, they will be looking for improvements in > > > > future academic performance. > > > > > > > > Child advocates say programs need to convey the subtlety of > > > > communication as well as simply trying to bolster word counts. "It's > > > > not just saying, 'You need to say this amount of words to your kids > > > > every day and then they're going to be smart and successful,' " said > > > > Claire Lerner, director of parenting resources at Zero to Three, a > > > > nonprofit group that promotes healthy development in the early years. > > > > > > > > "We don't want parents talking at babies," Ms. Lerner said. "We want > > > > parents talking with babies." > > > > > > > > In addition to tracking word counts, the Lena device can detect when > > > > parents and caregivers wait for -- and respond to -- the verbal > > > utterances of > > > > their children. > > > > > > > > On the visit last week, Ms. Taveras showed Ms. Gonz?lez how much she > > > > and Mr. Ixcuna had increased such "conversational turns" with Deisy. > > > > > > > > Ms. Gonz?lez nodded, determined. "The next one will be even higher," > > > > she said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Thu Mar 27 13:40:35 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:40:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Thanks for the probes, Greg! I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of rhetorical questions. Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: (a) someone had to agree to disagree? (b) there was a slacker in the group? (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you expected? I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact that there may have been problems. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/27/2014 at 3:47 PM, in message , Greg Thompson wrote: Donna, I wonder if you could speak more about the endemic nature of failure in collaboration? (and/or the inherent deficit of ANY collaboration?) Perhaps some more examples of the kind of thing that you are seeing as being systematic and consistent across all (nearly all?) instances of collaboration? If I'm following you, your key point is that there may be (always will be?) people for whom collaboration will not work and for whom there is no such thing as a good collaboration (e.g., p. 50 - "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best interests"). Do you feel that there is no way to help students (both the alienated and the alienating) to be better collaborators? And do you feel that these are inherent characteristics of these students or does it matter what types of groups they are being asked to collaborate with? Am I missing your point entirely? (and I can't help but wonder about the larger cultural contexts in which these social contexts are built and the degree to which the failure of collaboration might actually be pointing us to a larger failure - a system(at)ic social/cultural failure in which social exclusion is demanded by our dominant social system and the exclusions observed in classroom collaborations are just children doing what they have learned is "normal"; but maybe things are different in Canada?). My rose colored collaboration glasses seem to be stuck to my head and, much as I try, I can't get them off. Perhaps you can help me remove them? -greg On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > I'll have to think about some more about your ideas. My immediate thought > when I read "essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a > deficit," was, no. More inline with my thinking is that it may be more that > my assertions essentialize humans working together more generally (in the > plural) rather than one student or any one person. It is a deficit of group > dynamics rather than of an individual. > > It might be worth turning our attention to another student in the article, > Will. Will's participation in the group was unchallenged despite his level > of engagement. In early drafts of the paper, I talked about his productive > privileging - also using productive in a dystopic sense. This didn't make > it into the paper - which is an altogether different discussion about > attempts to theorize; however, Will also illustrates a different type of > deficit that is privilege by the group. It isn't Will or Mitchell that is a > deficit. The deficit exists inherently in any collaborative endeavor. > > I should make clear that I started out as collaborative learning > enthusiast. Indeed, my view is that much of individual's success in life is > situated in their ability to work with others. That being said, my research > illustrates that the learning that is intended and the learning that > actually materializes is often quite different. So approaching > collaborative learning form this lense is now different for me. > Collaborative learning has pretty much been seen from pretty rosy glasses. > It's been the slayer of teacher directed learning. My research suggests a > more critical perspective is warranted. > > d. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/27/2014 at 2:30 PM, in message > , "White, > Phillip" wrote: > > greetings, again Donna - > > i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in your > ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get across to you > in my first posting. > > which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some > students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best > interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is exemplary, yet > there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. > as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty > years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the three > girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were actually in > place. > > i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly > connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized ... at > the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in classrooms but > throughout all of society's points of collaboration - certainly the > inherent political and social injustices of position was first brought to > my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. > > what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who > experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the activity > itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to both > essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > > Dear Donna, > > The impressions I thought about were: > > 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is > committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. > That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. > > 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive schema > in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the > work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various > operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and directives, > but that the emphasis is on the making. > > 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) > and methods to show its "genesis". > > So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with > planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them in > order to help them think about the planning but also the potential > amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". > > I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for the > children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this > complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the > salience of the mathematical concepts). > > Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to > calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the > mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the > planning. > > Thank you for presenting the paper! > > Best, > Huw > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 14:15:28 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:15:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: On 27 March 2014 17:39, Larry Purss wrote: > Huw, > > Your reference to the relations of positioning TO Brandom's inferential > perspectives and the methods which show its *genesis* was a pregnant > thought. I hope you are able to expand on this relation. Is this relation > a reflection from your *inner thought* [which is abbreviated and condensed] > or can this relation BETWEEN Harre and Brandom be expanded from specific > readings? > Hi Larry, Well, I am going by the phenomena pointed to and described by Donna's "positioning". I'm not sure whether I've read Harre. >From an "inferential" perspective one may say that we are forever monitoring each other's commitments and establishing de-facto expectations (a kind of norm), such that if the conditions are infringed upon they can be rather upsetting (i.e. a social basis of 'feeling'). To position someone is, from an inferentialist perspective, to have undertaken such "inferential calculus". The "genesis" is basically the aim of science. The aim of scientific explanation is to explain how a phenomenon comes into being (which is one of the reasons why Vygotsky makes for such great study). I have provided some references below. Both Pinkard and Derry are lucid and make for good reading. The following video might helpful too (I think part 2 was where things get a bit more interesting): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdIPuERVjk0 I hope you find this helpful and interesting. Best, Huw References Pinkard, T. (2000) Hegel's Phenomenology and Logic: An Overview. In: K. Ameriks (ed.) *The Cambridge Companion to Idealism.* Cambridge: Cambridge University Press Derry, J. (2013) Can Inferentialism Contribute to Social Epistemology? *Journal of Philosophy of Education*, 47:2, pp. 222-235 Brandom, R. (1994) *Making it Explicit: Reasoning, Representing, and Discursive Commitment. *Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press. From dkirsh@lsu.edu Thu Mar 27 14:43:52 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:43:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <107aaf34f0644543b44fd1ed17df0e02@BN1PR06MB008.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Donna, What's ambiguous in your paper and the ensuing discussion is whether dysfunctional relations within collaborative groups are inevitable (owing to some as yet unnamed principle of group dynamics), or are collaborations merely usually dysfunction (at least for some participants) because of the statistical unlikelihood of finding an entire set of people for whom effective collaborative relations are possible, given that "collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone." Thinking about this former possibility, I think it's important to resist looking only inward to invariant structures of group dynamics. First of all, the broader culture creates a context. For instance, Israeli school relations are deeply influenced by the cultural principle of "Gibush" or social cohesion. As well, the patterns of participation can be influenced by positioning of the group relative to external entities, for instance, as illustrated by the Hawthorne effect (the increased productivity of workers that accrued to the fact that they had been selected to be studied). Perhaps the solidarity that can build within oppressed groups is a better example. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Kotsopoulos Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 3:41 PM To: Culture Activity eXtended Mind Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory Thanks for the probes, Greg! I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of rhetorical questions. Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: (a) someone had to agree to disagree? (b) there was a slacker in the group? (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you expected? I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact that there may have been problems. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/27/2014 at 3:47 PM, in message , Greg Thompson wrote: Donna, I wonder if you could speak more about the endemic nature of failure in collaboration? (and/or the inherent deficit of ANY collaboration?) Perhaps some more examples of the kind of thing that you are seeing as being systematic and consistent across all (nearly all?) instances of collaboration? If I'm following you, your key point is that there may be (always will be?) people for whom collaboration will not work and for whom there is no such thing as a good collaboration (e.g., p. 50 - "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best interests"). Do you feel that there is no way to help students (both the alienated and the alienating) to be better collaborators? And do you feel that these are inherent characteristics of these students or does it matter what types of groups they are being asked to collaborate with? Am I missing your point entirely? (and I can't help but wonder about the larger cultural contexts in which these social contexts are built and the degree to which the failure of collaboration might actually be pointing us to a larger failure - a system(at)ic social/cultural failure in which social exclusion is demanded by our dominant social system and the exclusions observed in classroom collaborations are just children doing what they have learned is "normal"; but maybe things are different in Canada?). My rose colored collaboration glasses seem to be stuck to my head and, much as I try, I can't get them off. Perhaps you can help me remove them? -greg On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > I'll have to think about some more about your ideas. My immediate > thought when I read "essentialize the student, as well as view them as > having a deficit," was, no. More inline with my thinking is that it > may be more that my assertions essentialize humans working together > more generally (in the > plural) rather than one student or any one person. It is a deficit of > group dynamics rather than of an individual. > > It might be worth turning our attention to another student in the > article, Will. Will's participation in the group was unchallenged > despite his level of engagement. In early drafts of the paper, I > talked about his productive privileging - also using productive in a > dystopic sense. This didn't make it into the paper - which is an > altogether different discussion about attempts to theorize; however, > Will also illustrates a different type of deficit that is privilege by > the group. It isn't Will or Mitchell that is a deficit. The deficit exists inherently in any collaborative endeavor. > > I should make clear that I started out as collaborative learning > enthusiast. Indeed, my view is that much of individual's success in > life is situated in their ability to work with others. That being > said, my research illustrates that the learning that is intended and > the learning that actually materializes is often quite different. So > approaching collaborative learning form this lense is now different for me. > Collaborative learning has pretty much been seen from pretty rosy glasses. > It's been the slayer of teacher directed learning. My research > suggests a more critical perspective is warranted. > > d. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/27/2014 at 2:30 PM, in message > , > "White, Phillip" wrote: > > greetings, again Donna - > > i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in > your ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get > across to you in my first posting. > > which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some > students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their > best interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is > exemplary, yet there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. > as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty > years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the > three girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were > actually in place. > > i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly > connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized > ... at the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in > classrooms but throughout all of society's points of collaboration - > certainly the inherent political and social injustices of position was > first brought to my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. > > what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who > experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the > activity itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to > both essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview > Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > > Dear Donna, > > The impressions I thought about were: > > 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone > is committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. > That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. > > 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive > schema in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of > much of the work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of > the various operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning > and directives, but that the emphasis is on the making. > > 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives > (Brandom) and methods to show its "genesis". > > So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have > with planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be > doing them in order to help them think about the planning but also the > potential amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". > > I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for > the > children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against > this complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. > reduce the salience of the mathematical concepts). > > Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to > calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the > mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the > planning. > > Thank you for presenting the paper! > > Best, > Huw > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:34:40 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:34:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Sharing a Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are SO right about higher ed, Phillip! And locally, the students are getting very restless with the disjuncture between what they are doing in classes and what will earn them a living...... ever. If only a penny saved were a penny L-earned! :-( mike On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:09 AM, White, Phillip wrote: > higher education reform is just as complex with multiple competing systems > of privilege, prerogative and power as is k-12 public education reform. > > phillip > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:52 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Sharing a Video > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCJ46vyR9o > This video is already a few years old (2007) but shows the great > disconnect between most university teaching and learning and how/what > students should be learning. It fits well with many sentiments expressed on > this list. > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:42:47 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 07:42:47 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <107aaf34f0644543b44fd1ed17df0e02@BN1PR06MB008.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <107aaf34f0644543b44fd1ed17df0e02@BN1PR06MB008.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Take these two exchanges: Alice: Mitchell, do a different one! Mitchell: No! Alice: Use both ideas, okay? Mitchell: It doesn't look interesting. I analyze this as two exchanges, in which Alice initiates both times and in which the commodity at risk is goods and services rather than, say, information (so language actually has an auxiliary role here; it's a means of doing non-linguistic--including purely mathematical--things). The first initiate is a command, and it's very straightforward: grammatically imperative, which means that Mitchell can either comply with the command (the preferred option) or reject it (dispreferred, and the option he chooses). But he has already been positioned as the recipient of a command; he can't uncommand himself and that isn't what he does. On the contrary, by rejecting the command he actually draws attention to the fact that he has been commanded. The second initiate looks like a command, but there is a tag attached. This tag turns out to have a much more powerful effect than the bare imperative ever could have. True, the tag's lexical, not grammatical (if Alice had said "Use both ideas, will ya?" or "Use both ideas, won't you?" Mitchell's response would probably have been even more circumspect and circumlocutionary than it actually is). But Mitchell's response here is certainly interactive, no? Isn't this the closest we get to a "why" in the data? I think this is the kind of analysis that Bernstein...and of course Halliday, on whose work it is based--had in mind. I guess I am a little wary of adjectives like "reactive" and "interactive" and their application to "storylines". Could you tell us more about what exactly a "storyline" is and how we would know if a member's positioning in the storyline were reactive or interactive? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 28 March 2014 06:43, David H Kirshner wrote: > Donna, > > What's ambiguous in your paper and the ensuing discussion is whether dysfunctional relations within collaborative groups are inevitable (owing to some as yet unnamed principle of group dynamics), or are collaborations merely usually dysfunction (at least for some participants) because of the statistical unlikelihood of finding an entire set of people for whom effective collaborative relations are possible, given that "collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone." > > Thinking about this former possibility, I think it's important to resist looking only inward to invariant structures of group dynamics. First of all, the broader culture creates a context. For instance, Israeli school relations are deeply influenced by the cultural principle of "Gibush" or social cohesion. As well, the patterns of participation can be influenced by positioning of the group relative to external entities, for instance, as illustrated by the Hawthorne effect (the increased productivity of workers that accrued to the fact that they had been selected to be studied). Perhaps the solidarity that can build within oppressed groups is a better example. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Kotsopoulos > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 3:41 PM > To: Culture Activity eXtended Mind > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > > Thanks for the probes, Greg! > > I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of rhetorical questions. > > Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: > (a) someone had to agree to disagree? > (b) there was a slacker in the group? > (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? > (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? > (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you expected? > > I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. > > I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. > > To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact that there may have been problems. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>> On 3/27/2014 at 3:47 PM, in message , Greg Thompson wrote: > > Donna, > I wonder if you could speak more about the endemic nature of failure in collaboration? (and/or the inherent deficit of ANY collaboration?) > > Perhaps some more examples of the kind of thing that you are seeing as being systematic and consistent across all (nearly all?) instances of collaboration? > > If I'm following you, your key point is that there may be (always will be?) people for whom collaboration will not work and for whom there is no such thing as a good collaboration (e.g., p. 50 - "for some students... > collaboration may not be in their best interests"). > > Do you feel that there is no way to help students (both the alienated and the alienating) to be better collaborators? And do you feel that these are inherent characteristics of these students or does it matter what types of groups they are being asked to collaborate with? Am I missing your point entirely? > > (and I can't help but wonder about the larger cultural contexts in which these social contexts are built and the degree to which the failure of collaboration might actually be pointing us to a larger failure - a system(at)ic social/cultural failure in which social exclusion is demanded by our dominant social system and the exclusions observed in classroom collaborations are just children doing what they have learned is "normal"; but maybe things are different in Canada?). > > My rose colored collaboration glasses seem to be stuck to my head and, much as I try, I can't get them off. Perhaps you can help me remove them? > > -greg > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> I'll have to think about some more about your ideas. My immediate >> thought when I read "essentialize the student, as well as view them as >> having a deficit," was, no. More inline with my thinking is that it >> may be more that my assertions essentialize humans working together >> more generally (in the >> plural) rather than one student or any one person. It is a deficit of >> group dynamics rather than of an individual. >> >> It might be worth turning our attention to another student in the >> article, Will. Will's participation in the group was unchallenged >> despite his level of engagement. In early drafts of the paper, I >> talked about his productive privileging - also using productive in a >> dystopic sense. This didn't make it into the paper - which is an >> altogether different discussion about attempts to theorize; however, >> Will also illustrates a different type of deficit that is privilege by >> the group. It isn't Will or Mitchell that is a deficit. The deficit exists inherently in any collaborative endeavor. >> >> I should make clear that I started out as collaborative learning >> enthusiast. Indeed, my view is that much of individual's success in >> life is situated in their ability to work with others. That being >> said, my research illustrates that the learning that is intended and >> the learning that actually materializes is often quite different. So >> approaching collaborative learning form this lense is now different for me. >> Collaborative learning has pretty much been seen from pretty rosy glasses. >> It's been the slayer of teacher directed learning. My research >> suggests a more critical perspective is warranted. >> >> d. >> >> >> >> >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >> Wilfrid Laurier University >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> >> >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >> intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as >> recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >> >>> On 3/27/2014 at 2:30 PM, in message >> , >> "White, Phillip" wrote: >> >> greetings, again Donna - >> >> i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in >> your ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get >> across to you in my first posting. >> >> which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some >> students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their >> best interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is >> exemplary, yet there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. >> as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty >> years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the >> three girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were >> actually in place. >> >> i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly >> connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized >> ... at the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in >> classrooms but throughout all of society's points of collaboration - >> certainly the inherent political and social injustices of position was >> first brought to my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. >> >> what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who >> experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the >> activity itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to >> both essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. >> >> phillip >> >> >> Phillip White, PhD >> Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview >> Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or >> pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd >> [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory >> >> Dear Donna, >> >> The impressions I thought about were: >> >> 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone >> is committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the commitments. >> That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. >> >> 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive >> schema in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of >> much of the work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of >> the various operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning >> and directives, but that the emphasis is on the making. >> >> 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives >> (Brandom) and methods to show its "genesis". >> >> So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have >> with planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be >> doing them in order to help them think about the planning but also the >> potential amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". >> >> I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for >> the >> children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against >> this complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. >> reduce the salience of the mathematical concepts). >> >> Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to >> calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the >> mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the >> planning. >> >> Thank you for presenting the paper! >> >> Best, >> Huw >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 15:57:23 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 07:57:23 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Greg: Zizek is now a visiting professor at a university within spitting distance of our campus (students in the front rows of his classes are warned to bring umbrellas). I think that Zizek's speaking style is that of an agitator; he is making the same point that Adorno made when he said that to acknowledge bankruptcy doesn't actually pay any bills. But the agitator goes to far when he implies that the acknowledgement of bankruptcy is just a form of goyischer guilt, a substitute for doing the right thing in the first place. First of all, cynicism is historically a harbinger of ideological collapse, and great ideological collapses never come about without profound material causes and very striking ideological consequences. You had to have cynicism about the medieval romance before you could have the Don Quixote. Secondly, to the extent that Zizek is right about cynicism he is simply stating the obvious truth that an ideology never goes away simply because it has lost its raison d'etre but only when something else comes along to replace it. How does being cynical about cynicism help us displace it? When was despair ever dispelled by anything but hope? When I lived in Wuhan I would sometimes try to get on a bus because it was far less crowded than the ones that were about to leave. Whenever I did this, I would be told gravely by people who had had the idea first, that the bus was not going anywhere. Of course, I took this with a block of salt; if the bus was not going anywhere, what were they doing on it? I soon learned that what I was observing was not despair or even cynicism, but an elaborate form of covert optimism: positioning predictions in such a way that it is in your interest to be proven wrong. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 26 March 2014 13:42, Greg Thompson wrote: > David, your earlier comment about Bernstein seems to suggest that one thing > that we can do is to "pull back the curtain of ideology", so to speak. That > is, to demonstrate the problematic nature of the notion that the deficit > lies within the individual and instead to shine a light on the system > within which a deficit is made into a deficit (Mcdermott and Varenne come > to mind here as having done exemplary work of this sort). That seems to me > to be a useful direction to push things. And one that I would think Mike > would be in support of. > Mike? > > And yet, the cynic in me hears Slavoj Zizek whispering in my ear (okay, > SHOUTING, and with a fair degree of spittle - Zizek never whispers!) that > revealing ideologies in this way has done little to change the way people > engage with those ideologies. The only difference is that people now > ironically engage with the ideologies that have been revealed as such. But > those ideologies maintain all the force that they have ever had. > > But I don't like to be cynical. > > -greg > > > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 6:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Mike-- >> >> Thanks for the article.The ideas are not completely new to me; even >> the link with the great anthropological tradition in linguistics of >> Sapir, Whorf and Boas that joins you to Halliday is something I have >> heard you articulate many times. But they are presented more >> forcefully than ever, and the tie to Bruner is quite new (I had always >> thought of Bruner as a wartime social behaviorist, centrally >> responsible for the distortions of the "scaffolding" reading of >> Vygotsky). >> >> Labov is also in that great tradition. I have enormous respect for >> him, not least because, like you and quite unlike me, he is STILL >> doing important work in the inner cities, teaching kids to read and >> write. His work on the grammar of AAVE seems like a waystage between >> Hymes on the one hand and Heath on the other. But like so many of that >> great tradition in linguistics, his strength is empirical strength and >> not theoretical strength. >> >> Take his famous paper on narrative structure: these are categories >> which emerge from and are largely confined to the data. His reading of >> Bernstein hopelessly shallow; he just cannot take on board the whole >> argument about the strong and weak ways of framing knowledge, and as a >> result he ends up with a caricature rather than a fair understanding. >> (Ruqaiya Hasan notes, correctly, that Labov barely bothers to cite >> Bernstein!) >> >> Yes, I too have trouble with what you call the extreme forms of >> Bernstein's theory (although I note that for the most part they are >> not really Bernstein's). By the time children are in middle school, >> they don't really talk like their parents any more; they talk like >> each other. But I am willing to accept that by the time they get to >> middle school, it may be too late; language development consists of >> many roads not taken (how way leads on way!). >> >> My wife complains that the Korean system (and of course the Chinese >> system too) is unforgiving; the child takes the college entrance >> examination at the end of high school and the child's fate is sealed. >> This is not strictly true (she herself took the exam four times and >> eventually got in). But even if it were true, that would make it a >> system that is rather less unforgiving than the American one. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> On 25 March 2014 10:06, mike cole wrote: >> > David-- >> > >> > I want strongly to agree with you and Michael that >> > >> > we all know that privileged genres privilege the >> > privileged, but the question is what to do about it >> > >> > That is, the rich get richer aka the "Mathew effect" - to s/he who has be >> > given." >> > >> > I am still considering with the notion that "childism" equals >> pre-formism. >> > Just as pushing the bernsteinian codes to extremes is now well understood >> > to be a mistake, so is the mistake of underestimating the significant >> > culturally mediated, socially organized, development of the psychological >> > capacities of young children. >> > >> > How that defeats the Mathew effect remains the issue. >> > >> > One thing we can do is to try to avoid encouraging it when fooling >> > ourselves into thinking that we are defeating it. >> > >> > See attached >> > mike >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:47 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >> > >> >> Michael and Anna: >> >> >> >> Halliday points out that there really isn't any necessary connection >> >> between, say, preformism and the idea that the child "learns by >> >> setting up hypothetical rules of grammar and matching them against >> >> what he hears", nor is there some kind of logical link between >> >> empiricism and "associationist, stimulus response" models of the >> >> learning process (2004: 29). We can easiliy imagine preformist models >> >> that don't depend on the freestanding autonomous child as little >> >> scientist, and we can also imagine empiricist models that don't >> >> involve associationist psychology. Similarly, I think that although >> >> historically there was a very strong and long lasting marriage between >> >> behaviorism in learning theory and structuralism in language theory in >> >> language teaching which lasted most of the twentieth century, the fact >> >> that we now have two very different communicative language teaching >> >> methods (a British version which jettisons structuralism but keeps >> >> behaviorism in a social-behaviorist form and an American one which >> >> jettisons behaviorism but keeps structuralism in a Chomskyan one) >> >> there isn't any necessary link between the theory of language and the >> >> theory of learning. >> >> >> >> Greg asked me to comment on what I thought the ramifications of >> >> "childism' were for language research AND for teaching. That seems to >> >> me to be two different topics, although of course they are related. So >> >> what I said was that Halliday considered "childism" to be a kind of >> >> preformism. I think that's right. On the separate topic of teaching, I >> >> thought that "childism" sometimes demands that children exercise free >> >> will where no free will is yet possible, and I thought the anecdote >> >> about Summerhill was a pretty good illustration of that. Actually, the >> >> link that Ana posted pretty much confirms that view; you can certainly >> >> see that the gentleman in question is in fact white, British, and a >> >> native speaker of the English language. >> >> >> >> Let me attempt a very brief reply to the point that Michael raises, >> >> namely that we all know that privileged genres privilege the >> >> privileged, but the question is what to do about it. First of all, I >> >> think that doing something about it requires recognizing that "it" >> >> exists. We don't do that if we consider that saying that Berstein has >> >> a "deficit" model of language proficiency constitutes a refutation of >> >> Bernstein. In fact, what Bernstein is saying is preciselyt hat >> >> privileged genres privilege the privileged, and labeling this a >> >> "deficit" model seems to me to be a way of implying that by >> >> recognizing this reality Bernstein is somehow seeking to blame the >> >> victim. That really doesn't follow at all, particularly if we reject >> >> preformism; the "deficit" simply does not and cannot lie in the >> >> learner him or herself. Secondly, I think that what Halliday would say >> >> is that doing something about it requires us to get outside the >> >> privileged genre and see it as a genre, not as a latent ability in the >> >> child and still less as conterminous with or even a necessary >> >> component of the linguistic environment. This seems empowering to me, >> >> and not only to the underprivileged learner. >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> > cut off by mike cole. check xmca for the rest of the thread minus the >> > trailing >> >>>s >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Mar 27 20:26:53 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:26:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Donna, this helps clarify things a lot! Yes, I have had the experiences that you describe, and this gets me thinking a bit about the work of Jurgen Habermas, particularly his theory of communicative action which was been soundly criticized, imho, on grounds very similar to the ones that you point to. I agree with your fundamental point that collaboration is not a panacea. And I'd even agree that collaboration can become oppressive in some or even most cases. (the old saw about democracy perhaps could also be said of collaboration: "democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner." One would hope that in middle school classrooms nobody is eating anyone else, but in middle school one can never be sure!). But I am curious about the role of cultural processes in making collaborations oppressive. And similarly, I think that we need to better developed understanding of the nature of the interactional frame that we know of as "collaboration." This is something that is increasingly recognizable as a form of interaction, but we seem to know fairly little about how it works or what it is. Thus, how do we know when we are "in" a collaborative group? And further, what does it "mean" (to us and to others) to be in a collaborative group? These questions vary greatly from one culture to the next and I think that developing this kind of understanding would help to tell us a lot about how collaboration becomes oppressive. And it would also expand our understanding of what "counts" as collaboration. I agree with what I take to be an implicit point of yours, namely that we have a very small notion of what collaboration is or can be (a notion that is highly inflected by WASP-y American culture - just to mention another bee buzzing in my bonnet!). Anyway, thanks for the lovely and engaging paper - I was particularly excited about the opportunity to re-engage with positioning theory. Very best, greg On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks for the probes, Greg! > > I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of > rhetorical questions. > > Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: > (a) someone had to agree to disagree? > (b) there was a slacker in the group? > (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? > (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? > (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you > expected? > > I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or all > of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to > collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been > a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. > > I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and > expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is > different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage > the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. > > To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that > shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is > learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher > directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an > artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable > that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. > Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible > complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - > its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to > achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact > that there may have been problems. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/27/2014 at 3:47 PM, in message < > CAHH++Pn57e7juVzXvm2TK5dhXDp8bG6MNxzAgUqSaFoAfjc4-Q@mail.gmail.com>, Greg > Thompson wrote: > > Donna, > I wonder if you could speak more about the endemic nature of failure in > collaboration? (and/or the inherent deficit of ANY collaboration?) > > Perhaps some more examples of the kind of thing that you are seeing as > being systematic and consistent across all (nearly all?) instances of > collaboration? > > If I'm following you, your key point is that there may be (always will be?) > people for whom collaboration will not work and for whom there is no such > thing as a good collaboration (e.g., p. 50 - "for some students... > collaboration may not be in their best interests"). > > Do you feel that there is no way to help students (both the alienated and > the alienating) to be better collaborators? And do you feel that these are > inherent characteristics of these students or does it matter what types of > groups they are being asked to collaborate with? Am I missing your point > entirely? > > (and I can't help but wonder about the larger cultural contexts in which > these social contexts are built and the degree to which the failure of > collaboration might actually be pointing us to a larger failure - a > system(at)ic social/cultural failure in which social exclusion is demanded > by our dominant social system and the exclusions observed in classroom > collaborations are just children doing what they have learned is "normal"; > but maybe things are different in Canada?). > > My rose colored collaboration glasses seem to be stuck to my head and, much > as I try, I can't get them off. Perhaps you can help me remove them? > > -greg > > > On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Donna Kotsopoulos > wrote: > > > I'll have to think about some more about your ideas. My immediate thought > > when I read "essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a > > deficit," was, no. More inline with my thinking is that it may be more > that > > my assertions essentialize humans working together more generally (in the > > plural) rather than one student or any one person. It is a deficit of > group > > dynamics rather than of an individual. > > > > It might be worth turning our attention to another student in the > article, > > Will. Will's participation in the group was unchallenged despite his > level > > of engagement. In early drafts of the paper, I talked about his > productive > > privileging - also using productive in a dystopic sense. This didn't make > > it into the paper - which is an altogether different discussion about > > attempts to theorize; however, Will also illustrates a different type of > > deficit that is privilege by the group. It isn't Will or Mitchell that > is a > > deficit. The deficit exists inherently in any collaborative endeavor. > > > > I should make clear that I started out as collaborative learning > > enthusiast. Indeed, my view is that much of individual's success in life > is > > situated in their ability to work with others. That being said, my > research > > illustrates that the learning that is intended and the learning that > > actually materializes is often quite different. So approaching > > collaborative learning form this lense is now different for me. > > Collaborative learning has pretty much been seen from pretty rosy > glasses. > > It's been the slayer of teacher directed learning. My research suggests a > > more critical perspective is warranted. > > > > d. > > > > > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > > Wilfrid Laurier University > > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). > Any > > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > > >>> On 3/27/2014 at 2:30 PM, in message > > , "White, > > Phillip" wrote: > > > > greetings, again Donna - > > > > i do agree with Huw here, that the difficulties you've uncovered in your > > ethnography reflects what i was initially attempting to get across to you > > in my first posting. > > > > which is why i'm uncertain in accepting your conclusion that "for some > > students, like Mitchell, working collaboratively may not be in their best > > interests." you have asserted that the classroom teacher is exemplary, > yet > > there is no evidence to support this description within your ethnography. > > as a clinical teacher coach and classroom teacher for more than forty > > years, i'd be prone to wonder, based on the described behavior of the > three > > girls, exactly what conditions for learning (Cambourne) were actually in > > place. > > > > i have found the ethnography highly thought provoking and strongly > > connected with your deep sympathy for students who are marginalized ... > at > > the same time, positioning is an endemic tension not only in classrooms > but > > throughout all of society's points of collaboration - certainly the > > inherent political and social injustices of position was first brought to > > my attention reading the works of Gloria Steinem, for example. > > > > what i fear is that by following your suggestion that for students who > > experience difficulties in collaboration, by understanding the activity > > itself of collaboration as not in their best interests, is to both > > essentialize the student, as well as view them as having a deficit. > > > > phillip > > > > > > Phillip White, PhD > > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > > Site Coordinator > > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > > or > > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:33 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > > > > Dear Donna, > > > > The impressions I thought about were: > > > > 1. The difficult task of establishing a collaboration so that everyone is > > committed voluntarily and that allows for re-appraisal of the > commitments. > > That is, to establish a task in which "positions" are not a big deal. > > > > 2. Problematic aspects of the activity: the priming of a competitive > schema > > in the positioning questionaire and the operational nature of much of the > > work. It seems to me that the collaborative conjuction of the various > > operations (cutting shapes etc) is in the ongoing planning and > directives, > > but that the emphasis is on the making. > > > > 3. The relations of "posiitioning" to inferential perspectives (Brandom) > > and methods to show its "genesis". > > > > So this seems, to me, to be all about the difficulty children have with > > planning and thinking about their tasks: how they need to be doing them > in > > order to help them think about the planning but also the potential > > amplification of the problem if they are doing it in a "scrum". > > > > I think what you are reporting serves to elucidate the complexity (for > the > > children) in this task and how the difficulties in coming up against this > > complexity may obscure the intended mathematical content (i.e. reduce the > > salience of the mathematical concepts). > > > > Perhaps, one basic activity theoretic contribution would be to seek to > > calibrate the complexity of the collaboration to the point whereby the > > mathematical concepts themselves become the issues that dominate the > > planning. > > > > Thank you for presenting the paper! > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 28 01:37:54 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 19:37:54 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then you add "and hard to achieve." Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly defined norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you describe (and more) are aspects of collaboration, and that there is more than one norm of collaboratin and many more ways of falling short of normativity, of being betrayed, exploited, disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer to take every human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that is, I take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which every human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we could see every human experience as being a window on the experience of collaboration, the expectations, the productivity, the potential for disappointment, exploitation, etc.? Is there a better way to understand human relationship? Discourse? I think "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework than "discouse." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks for the probes, Greg! > > I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of rhetorical questions. > > Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: > (a) someone had to agree to disagree? > (b) there was a slacker in the group? > (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? > (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? > (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you expected? > > I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. > > I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. > > To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact that there may have been problems. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > From drobbins72000@yahoo.com Fri Mar 28 04:45:23 2014 From: drobbins72000@yahoo.com (Dot Robbins) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2014 12:45:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] John Message-ID: <73bc5d753e04$2ab13bd1$884f1411$@yahoo.com> News http://fiatdealersanfrancisco.com/pal/w_news.php John From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Mar 28 05:01:36 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 06:01:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: poverty/class In-Reply-To: References: <532A410E.4000806@mira.net> <5206DC851EBB42C8B93C62814E36E5DD@avramlindaPC> <532C320C.7070403@mira.net> <532CFA5F.2090408@mira.net> <532E96F2.5020307@mira.net> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB169A2E@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> , Message-ID: Greg, i thing that this New York Times article suggests that, yes, it is within a system that a deficit is made into a deficit. HEALTH New York Times Project to Improve Poor Children?s Intellect Led to Better Health, Data Shows By SABRINA TAVERNISE MARCH 27, 2014 In 1972, researchers in North Carolina started following two groups of babies from poor families. In the first group, the children were given full-time day care up to age 5 that included most of their daily meals, talking, games and other stimulating activities. The other group, aside from baby formula, got nothing. The scientists were testing whether the special treatment would lead to better cognitive abilities in the long run. Forty-two years later, the researchers found something that they had not expected to see: The group that got care was far healthier, with sharply lower rates of high blood pressure and obesity, and higher levels of so-called good cholesterol. The study, which was published in the journal Science on Thursday, is part of a growing body of scientific evidence that hardship in early childhood has lifelong health implications. But it goes further than outlining the problem, offering evidence that a particular policy might prevent it. ?This tells us that adversity matters and it does affect adult health,? said James Heckman, a professor of economics at the University of Chicago who led the data analysis. ?But it also shows us that we can do something about it, that poverty is not just a hopeless condition.? The findings come amid a political push by the Obama administration for government-funded preschool for 4-year-olds. But a growing number of experts, Professor Heckman among them, say they believe that more effective public programs would start far earlier ? in infancy, for example, because that is when many of the skills needed to take control of one?s life and become a successful adult are acquired. The study in Science drew its data from the Carolina Abecedarian Project, in which about 100 infants from low-income families in North Carolina were followed from early infancy to their mid-30s. The project is well known in the world of social science because of its design: The infants were randomly assigned to one group or the other, allowing researchers to isolate the effects of the program. Such designs are the gold standard in medical research, but are rarely used in investigations that influence domestic social policy. The researchers had already answered their original question about cognitive development: whether the treated children would, for example, be less likely to fail in school. The answer was yes. Over all, the participants? abilities as infants were about the same, but by age 3 they had diverged. By age 30, those in the group given special care were four times as likely to have graduated from college. ?Forty years ago, it was all about cognition,? Professor Heckman said. ?But it turned out that when you expand these capabilities ? not only cognitive but social and emotional ? one of the effects is better health. Nobody thought about that at the time.? Frances Campbell, a senior scientist at the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, who started work on the project in the 1970s, said of the health improvements, ?I would not say to you that we were expecting to see much of a difference at all.? Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Fri Mar 28 05:31:59 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:31:59 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Message-ID: <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in collaborative activities with children and schools. Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. David Kellog asked about "storylines" and illustrated that he may have had an alternative read of the exchange with Mitchell. The definition I used in the paper for storylines is pretty common - but also limiting for precisely the reasons David illustrated in his response and Andy's comments. I also mentioned in an earlier response that another researcher had very similar videos to mine and did not see any of the productive silencing that I saw in both our videos. The storyline is fundamentally subjective in the absence of more fulsome frameworks for understanding such human interactions with children. These frameworks have to go beyond prescription (i.e., if you have x, y, and z, and if you do x, y, and z, and if the task looks like this, then it all works!). David also mentioned the Hawthorne Effect. Interesting comment. I have written another paper about this work which uses Foucault's work with surveillance. The main influence in changing the "collaboration" of the students was related to what I refer to as "self-surveillance" (see: Kotsopoulos, D. (2010). When collaborative is not collaborative: Supporting peer learning through self-surveillance. International Journal of Educational Research, 49, 129-140.). Just to share with the group, across all of the work that I have done in my academic career. Reporting on this study was the toughest. The results, and the idea of proposing theory, made this work particularly challenging. Theorizing is tougher than I thought and proposing theory is almost impossible to do! I've reported lots of results from lots of studies, but only this one has resulted in theory. d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/28/2014 at 4:37 AM, in message <533534E2.3000307@mira.net>, Andy Blunden wrote: Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then you add "and hard to achieve." Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly defined norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you describe (and more) are aspects of collaboration, and that there is more than one norm of collaboratin and many more ways of falling short of normativity, of being betrayed, exploited, disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer to take every human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that is, I take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which every human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we could see every human experience as being a window on the experience of collaboration, the expectations, the productivity, the potential for disappointment, exploitation, etc.? Is there a better way to understand human relationship? Discourse? I think "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework than "discouse." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Thanks for the probes, Greg! > > I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of rhetorical questions. > > Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: > (a) someone had to agree to disagree? > (b) there was a slacker in the group? > (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? > (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? > (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you expected? > > I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. > > I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. > > To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact that there may have been problems. > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 28 06:54:42 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 00:54:42 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging to them. What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > > Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an > instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic > expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is > compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in > collaborative activities with children and schools. > > Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types > of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school > setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the > possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive > silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive > privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of > learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Mar 28 07:26:30 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 07:26:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, I experienced your question and as a sudden shift in the collaboration. The exploration of positioning theory was moving in the direction of questioning the potential of collaboration is an ideal that may be constrained. The *meaning* of collaboration was being modified and tending in one direction. Your reflection on the value of reflection as a *core* value shifted our engagement with this concept and collaboration *felt* different. Collaboration went from feeling *suspect* to being a valued term. THIS phenomena as felt tendency re-positions the concept of collaboration in our community. Andy, you then propose the more appropriate *posing* [positioning] of this question must be *what TYPE of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this or that student. Which then poses/positions the question of "What TYPES of collaboration are there?". You suggest that EACH TYPE has a NORM and the particular ways the students in this class are *normed* I would pose as expressing a particular VALUE position. Therefore *types* AND *posings* AND *positionings* AND *values* AND *norms* OF collaboration becomes a particular TYPE of storyline [genre??] You are suggesting the concept *collaborative* is preferable to *discourse*. I'm assuming you also would prefer *collaboration* to the concept *dialogue*. I am curious if others share Andy's preference for the concept *collaboration* and exploring TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration as a way to *reveal* [unmask??] the dynamic flow of *streams* of collaboration as expanding and extending the understanding of BOTH positioning theory AND collaboration. I will send a comment on another post which indicates the origin of Harre's positioning theory within Vygotsky's cultural historical theory AS a humanistic storyline On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then you add > "and hard to achieve." > Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly defined > norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you describe (and more) are > aspects of collaboration, and that there is more than one norm of > collaboratin and many more ways of falling short of normativity, of being > betrayed, exploited, disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer to > take every human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that is, I > take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human > relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which every > human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we could see every > human experience as being a window on the experience of collaboration, the > expectations, the productivity, the potential for disappointment, > exploitation, etc.? Is there a better way to understand human relationship? > Discourse? I think "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework than > "discouse." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> Thanks for the probes, Greg! >> >> I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of >> rhetorical questions. >> >> Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: (a) someone had >> to agree to disagree? >> (b) there was a slacker in the group? >> (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? >> (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? >> (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you >> expected? >> >> I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or >> all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to >> collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been >> a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. >> >> I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and >> expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is >> different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage >> the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. >> >> To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that >> shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is >> learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher >> directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an >> artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable >> that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. >> Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible >> complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - >> its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to >> achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact >> that there may have been problems. >> >> >> >> >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> >> > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Mar 28 08:27:48 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 08:27:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Russian Humanism and Positioning Theory Message-ID: In the other post we are discussing Donna's article which has a focus on exploring discourse and collaboration. I thought it may be interesting to share an article on the origin of positioning theory and the central influence of Russian Humanism as a tradition. I have pasted sections from the article into this post but formatting changes when I do this The article article by Dorothy Howie explores her reading of the origin of positioning theory and credits Vygotsky with having a profound influence on Rom Harre's development of positioning theory Dorothy wrote: THE NEW SOCIAL ONTOLOGY, AND 'I'HE RUSSIAN HUMANISTIC TRADITION Rom Harre, in conjunction with a number of others, has recently been instrumental in developing the notion of Positioning Theory as the basis of a new social psychology. The concept of positioning is considered as a dynamic alternative to the more static concept of role (Harre and Langenhove, 1991: 393) and it draws explicitly on an emergent ontology of social entities. Social acts, including speech acts, are seen as the 'matter' of social reality (Harri: and Van Langenhove, 1991: 394). People are viewed as the location for social acts, and the social realm is viewed as involving three processes: conversation (the most basic substance), institutional practices and the uses of societal rhetorics. These three processes are *all *viewed as forms of discursive practice. Harre points out that it is in the very nature of the discursive acts that many mental phenomena are to be found." Three aspects are intertwined [conversation, institutional practices, and the uses of societal rhetorics]. Harre's positioning theory includes societal rhetorics as the collaborative storylines we share ABOUT our societal processes and relates to Vygotsky's Russian Humanism. Dorothy comments, "That Harre is drawing very closely on Vygotsky's model of the cutural imbeddedness of thought and language is indicated by his assertion that conversation includes both public displays of language, and language displays to oneself (Harre, personal communication). Here, Harre. is drawing on Vygotsky's thesis that individual and private use of language derives from its social and public use:" Dorothy then inserts a quote from Harre to support her reading of the origin of positioning theory. Harre writes: "Our generally Vygotskian approach to the relations between conversation structures and patterns of thought inclines us to propose an initial hypothesis that private acts of self positioning conform to the tri-polar structure of public acts of self and other positioning " [Harre] Dorothy also brings in Bahktin and Wittgenstein as influential origins of positioning theory. Dorothy's article explores her understanding that positioning theory has emerged from engagement with Russian Humanism as a tradition [storyline, genre]. This article may or may not contribute to Donna's article under discussion so I started a new thread. The article can be accessed at Positioning Theory: Vygotsky, Wittgenstein and Social Constructionist Psychology DOROTHY HOWIE and MICHAEL PETERS From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Mar 28 14:18:21 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:18:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, Huw, Donna, Greg, Jennifer and others who have responded The exploration of positioning theory has generated multiple discussions which have been stimulated by Donna's article under discussion. One theme that seems vital is to explore *evaluative practices* and how we arrive at our shared values within collaborations. Jennifer's exploration of voice, Huw's referencing inferential positioning, collaboration as having *aspects* that are both constraining and freeing AS multiple TYPES, and the complexity of coming to shared understandings. On page 52 of the article "Positioning Theory: Vygotsky, Wittgenstein, and Social Constructionis Theory" Dorothy Howie and Michael Peters conclude the sub-section on "The New Social Psychology and the Russian Humanistic Tradition" with this comment on evaluative practices. "In conclusion to this section, there are implications of this cultural embeddedness of meanings as expressed in institutional practices and conversations for the interpreting and use of Positioning Theory FOR EVALUATIVE practices IN GENERAL" Andy's comments on TYPES of collaboration in general AS evaluative practices and the exploration of KINDS of positioning. This section ends with a quote from Harre and Van Lagenhove, 1991:p404] "... the cataloguing of KINDS of positions that exist here and now will not necessarily be found at other places and times. In so far as the content of a position is DEFINED in terms of rights, duties and obligations of speaking, and these 'MORAL' properties are locally and momentarily specified, positions will be unstable in content as well" To return to the article under discussion, Greg asked if the dynamics in the middle school math class as *observed* are particular KINDS of collaboration emerging within specific culturally and historically constrained contexts? There seems to be an *evaluative* ASPECT to understanding positioning theory that expands and extends the complexity of collaborative practices [the article I have referenced has free access because the publisher allows free access to 3 articles from their journals over a 14 day period] . On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > > I experienced your question and as a sudden shift in the collaboration. > The exploration of positioning theory was moving in the direction of > questioning the potential of collaboration is an ideal that may be > constrained. The *meaning* of collaboration was being modified and tending > in one direction. > Your reflection on the value of reflection as a *core* value shifted our > engagement with this concept and collaboration *felt* different. > Collaboration went from feeling *suspect* to being a valued term. THIS > phenomena as felt tendency re-positions the concept of collaboration in > our community. > Andy, you then propose the more appropriate *posing* [positioning] of this > question must be *what TYPE of collaboration* is or is not in the best > interest of this or that student. Which then poses/positions the question > of "What TYPES of collaboration are there?". > > You suggest that EACH TYPE has a NORM and the particular ways the students > in this class are *normed* I would pose as expressing a particular VALUE > position. > Therefore *types* AND *posings* AND *positionings* AND *values* AND > *norms* OF collaboration becomes a particular TYPE of storyline [genre??] > > You are suggesting the concept *collaborative* is preferable to > *discourse*. I'm assuming you also would prefer *collaboration* to the > concept *dialogue*. > > I am curious if others share Andy's preference for the concept > *collaboration* and exploring TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration as a way to > *reveal* [unmask??] the dynamic flow of *streams* of collaboration > as expanding and extending the understanding of BOTH positioning theory AND > collaboration. > > I will send a comment on another post which indicates the origin of > Harre's positioning theory within Vygotsky's cultural historical theory AS > a humanistic storyline > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then you >> add "and hard to achieve." >> Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly >> defined norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you describe (and >> more) are aspects of collaboration, and that there is more than one norm of >> collaboratin and many more ways of falling short of normativity, of being >> betrayed, exploited, disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer to >> take every human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that is, I >> take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human >> relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which every >> human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we could see every >> human experience as being a window on the experience of collaboration, the >> expectations, the productivity, the potential for disappointment, >> exploitation, etc.? Is there a better way to understand human relationship? >> Discourse? I think "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework than >> "discouse." >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the probes, Greg! >>> >>> I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of >>> rhetorical questions. >>> >>> Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: (a) someone had >>> to agree to disagree? >>> (b) there was a slacker in the group? >>> (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? >>> (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? >>> (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you >>> expected? >>> >>> I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or >>> all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to >>> collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's been >>> a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. >>> >>> I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and >>> expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the expectations is >>> different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and encourage >>> the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others accountable. >>> >>> To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that >>> shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is >>> learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher >>> directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. If an >>> artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable >>> that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative ideas. >>> Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible >>> complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is formidable - >>> its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to >>> achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the fact >>> that there may have been problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >>> >>> >> >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Mar 28 16:23:54 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 23:23:54 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Message-ID: Good work, Larry. On the topics of practicalities of "vitalness" and typologies of collaboration, I am reminded of a quip from Tolstoy beginning Anna Karenina: "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way". I think we know a fair bit about how to participate in happy collaborations. Which, after all, are the ones we want to foster. Yet, it seems a bit strange to expect children to simply know how to do this, especially when you consider all the fumbling attempts adults make at it. I perceive that one of the practical pieces of the "role cards" that Mike had occasion to used (King et al, unpublished?) would be to reduce the politics of this for children not practiced at this sort of thing. For me, one area I'd look at is the relation between demands on attention and "authoritarian tactics" in collaborative settings, i.e. the strain of attention and the desire to "force" a way through to a required task. Another area I would be equally curious about is the cultural milieu in which all these settings are situated. Best, Huw Catherine A. King, C. A., Griffin, P., Diaz, S., & Cole, M. (unpublished?) *A Model Systems Approach to Reading Instruction and the Diagnosis of Reading Disabilities. *Available at: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2012_10.dir/pdfFxCIQcbtlO.pdf On 28 March 2014 21:18, Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, Huw, Donna, Greg, Jennifer and others who have responded > > The exploration of positioning theory has generated multiple discussions > which have been stimulated by Donna's article under discussion. One theme > that seems vital is to explore *evaluative practices* and how we arrive at > our shared values within collaborations. Jennifer's exploration of voice, > Huw's referencing inferential positioning, collaboration as having > *aspects* that are both constraining and freeing AS multiple TYPES, and the > complexity of coming to shared understandings. > > On page 52 of the article "Positioning Theory: Vygotsky, Wittgenstein, and > Social Constructionis Theory" Dorothy Howie and Michael Peters conclude the > sub-section on "The New Social Psychology and the Russian Humanistic > Tradition" with this comment on evaluative practices. > > "In conclusion to this section, there are implications of this cultural > embeddedness of meanings as expressed in institutional practices and > conversations for the interpreting and use of Positioning Theory FOR > EVALUATIVE practices IN GENERAL" > > Andy's comments on TYPES of collaboration in general AS evaluative > practices and the exploration of KINDS of positioning. > > This section ends with a quote from Harre and Van Lagenhove, 1991:p404] > > "... the cataloguing of KINDS of positions that exist here and now will not > necessarily be found at other places and times. In so far as the content of > a position is DEFINED in terms of rights, duties and obligations of > speaking, and these 'MORAL' properties are locally and momentarily > specified, positions will be unstable in content as well" > > To return to the article under discussion, Greg asked if the dynamics in > the middle school math class as *observed* are particular KINDS of > collaboration emerging within specific culturally and historically > constrained contexts? > > There seems to be an *evaluative* ASPECT to understanding positioning > theory that expands and extends the complexity of collaborative practices > > [the article I have referenced has free access because the publisher > allows free access to 3 articles from their journals over a 14 day period] > . > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Andy, > > > > I experienced your question and as a sudden shift in the collaboration. > > The exploration of positioning theory was moving in the direction of > > questioning the potential of collaboration is an ideal that may be > > constrained. The *meaning* of collaboration was being modified and > tending > > in one direction. > > Your reflection on the value of reflection as a *core* value shifted our > > engagement with this concept and collaboration *felt* different. > > Collaboration went from feeling *suspect* to being a valued term. THIS > > phenomena as felt tendency re-positions the concept of collaboration in > > our community. > > Andy, you then propose the more appropriate *posing* [positioning] of > this > > question must be *what TYPE of collaboration* is or is not in the best > > interest of this or that student. Which then poses/positions the question > > of "What TYPES of collaboration are there?". > > > > You suggest that EACH TYPE has a NORM and the particular ways the > students > > in this class are *normed* I would pose as expressing a particular VALUE > > position. > > Therefore *types* AND *posings* AND *positionings* AND *values* AND > > *norms* OF collaboration becomes a particular TYPE of storyline [genre??] > > > > You are suggesting the concept *collaborative* is preferable to > > *discourse*. I'm assuming you also would prefer *collaboration* to the > > concept *dialogue*. > > > > I am curious if others share Andy's preference for the concept > > *collaboration* and exploring TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration as a way to > > *reveal* [unmask??] the dynamic flow of *streams* of collaboration > > as expanding and extending the understanding of BOTH positioning theory > AND > > collaboration. > > > > I will send a comment on another post which indicates the origin of > > Harre's positioning theory within Vygotsky's cultural historical theory > AS > > a humanistic storyline > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then you > >> add "and hard to achieve." > >> Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly > >> defined norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you describe > (and > >> more) are aspects of collaboration, and that there is more than one > norm of > >> collaboratin and many more ways of falling short of normativity, of > being > >> betrayed, exploited, disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer > to > >> take every human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that is, > I > >> take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human > >> relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which every > >> human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we could see every > >> human experience as being a window on the experience of collaboration, > the > >> expectations, the productivity, the potential for disappointment, > >> exploitation, etc.? Is there a better way to understand human > relationship? > >> Discourse? I think "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework > than > >> "discouse." > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for the probes, Greg! > >>> > >>> I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of > >>> rhetorical questions. > >>> > >>> Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: (a) someone had > >>> to agree to disagree? > >>> (b) there was a slacker in the group? > >>> (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? > >>> (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it collaboration? > >>> (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you > >>> expected? > >>> > >>> I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some or > >>> all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit to > >>> collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. It's > been > >>> a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. > >>> > >>> I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and > >>> expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the > expectations is > >>> different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and > encourage > >>> the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others > accountable. > >>> > >>> To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope that > >>> shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is > >>> learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher > >>> directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. > If an > >>> artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is probable > >>> that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative > ideas. > >>> Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is incredible > >>> complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is > formidable - > >>> its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to > >>> achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the > fact > >>> that there may have been problems. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Mar 28 16:26:46 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 10:26:46 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Message-ID: <53360536.5030302@mira.net> I am suggesting, Larry, that collaboration rather than discourse could prove to be a very productive frame for analysis of human activity such as Donna considered. But it is always wrong, of course, to suggest that some other frame is to be discounted. Every frame of analysis gives us specific insights. In that sense I overstated my claim. I was wrong to suggest a consideration of types of collaboration "rather than" detailed analysis of interactions. Obviously both should be used. Collaboration puts the content rather than the form at the centre of analysis. To look at types of collaboration allows that people participate in a project with very different motives and can be legitimately understood by other collaborators in such differing roles. For example if two artists collaborate in producing a piece of public art, the expectations are very different from when an artist employs a technician with specialist skills. Expectations are very different. But if one or the other party were to be confused about the type of collaboration being carried out, and consequently their respective roles, then great hurt would ensue. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Andy, > > I experienced your question and as a sudden shift in the > collaboration. The exploration of positioning theory was moving in the > direction of questioning the potential of collaboration is an ideal > that may be constrained. The *meaning* of collaboration was being > modified and tending in one direction. > Your reflection on the value of reflection as a *core* value shifted > our engagement with this concept and collaboration *felt* different. > Collaboration went from feeling *suspect* to being a valued term. THIS > phenomena as felt tendency re-positions the concept of collaboration > in our community. > Andy, you then propose the more appropriate *posing* [positioning] of > this question must be *what TYPE of collaboration* is or is not in the > best interest of this or that student. Which then poses/positions the > question of "What TYPES of collaboration are there?". > > You suggest that EACH TYPE has a NORM and the particular ways the > students in this class are *normed* I would pose as expressing a > particular VALUE position. > Therefore *types* AND *posings* AND *positionings* AND *values* AND > *norms* OF collaboration becomes a particular TYPE of storyline [genre??] > > You are suggesting the concept *collaborative* is preferable to > *discourse*. I'm assuming you also would prefer *collaboration* to the > concept *dialogue*. > > I am curious if others share Andy's preference for the concept > *collaboration* and exploring TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration as a way > to *reveal* [unmask??] the dynamic flow of *streams* of collaboration > as expanding and extending the understanding of BOTH positioning > theory AND collaboration. > > I will send a comment on another post which indicates the origin of > Harre's positioning theory within Vygotsky's cultural historical > theory AS a humanistic storyline > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then > you add "and hard to achieve." > Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly > defined norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you > describe (and more) are aspects of collaboration, and that there > is more than one norm of collaboratin and many more ways of > falling short of normativity, of being betrayed, exploited, > disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer to take every > human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that is, I > take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human > relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which > every human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we > could see every human experience as being a window on the > experience of collaboration, the expectations, the productivity, > the potential for disappointment, exploitation, etc.? Is there a > better way to understand human relationship? Discourse? I think > "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework than "discouse." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Mar 28 16:44:38 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 16:44:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> Message-ID: Published only in Russian, Huw. :-)) mike On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Good work, Larry. > > On the topics of practicalities of "vitalness" and typologies of > collaboration, I am reminded of a quip from Tolstoy beginning Anna > Karenina: "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in > its own way". > > I think we know a fair bit about how to participate in happy > collaborations. Which, after all, are the ones we want to foster. Yet, it > seems a bit strange to expect children to simply know how to do this, > especially when you consider all the fumbling attempts adults make at it. > > I perceive that one of the practical pieces of the "role cards" that Mike > had occasion to used (King et al, unpublished?) would be to reduce the > politics of this for children not practiced at this sort of thing. For me, > one area I'd look at is the relation between demands on attention and > "authoritarian tactics" in collaborative settings, i.e. the strain of > attention and the desire to "force" a way through to a required task. > > Another area I would be equally curious about is the cultural milieu in > which all these settings are situated. > > Best, > Huw > > Catherine A. King, C. A., Griffin, P., Diaz, S., & Cole, M. (unpublished?) > *A > Model Systems Approach to Reading Instruction and the Diagnosis of Reading > Disabilities. *Available at: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2012_10.dir/pdfFxCIQcbtlO.pdf > > > On 28 March 2014 21:18, Larry Purss wrote: > > > Andy, Huw, Donna, Greg, Jennifer and others who have responded > > > > The exploration of positioning theory has generated multiple > discussions > > which have been stimulated by Donna's article under discussion. One > theme > > that seems vital is to explore *evaluative practices* and how we arrive > at > > our shared values within collaborations. Jennifer's exploration of voice, > > Huw's referencing inferential positioning, collaboration as having > > *aspects* that are both constraining and freeing AS multiple TYPES, and > the > > complexity of coming to shared understandings. > > > > On page 52 of the article "Positioning Theory: Vygotsky, Wittgenstein, > and > > Social Constructionis Theory" Dorothy Howie and Michael Peters conclude > the > > sub-section on "The New Social Psychology and the Russian Humanistic > > Tradition" with this comment on evaluative practices. > > > > "In conclusion to this section, there are implications of this cultural > > embeddedness of meanings as expressed in institutional practices and > > conversations for the interpreting and use of Positioning Theory FOR > > EVALUATIVE practices IN GENERAL" > > > > Andy's comments on TYPES of collaboration in general AS evaluative > > practices and the exploration of KINDS of positioning. > > > > This section ends with a quote from Harre and Van Lagenhove, 1991:p404] > > > > "... the cataloguing of KINDS of positions that exist here and now will > not > > necessarily be found at other places and times. In so far as the content > of > > a position is DEFINED in terms of rights, duties and obligations of > > speaking, and these 'MORAL' properties are locally and momentarily > > specified, positions will be unstable in content as well" > > > > To return to the article under discussion, Greg asked if the dynamics in > > the middle school math class as *observed* are particular KINDS of > > collaboration emerging within specific culturally and historically > > constrained contexts? > > > > There seems to be an *evaluative* ASPECT to understanding positioning > > theory that expands and extends the complexity of collaborative practices > > > > [the article I have referenced has free access because the publisher > > allows free access to 3 articles from their journals over a 14 day > period] > > . > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:26 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > > > Andy, > > > > > > I experienced your question and as a sudden shift in the collaboration. > > > The exploration of positioning theory was moving in the direction of > > > questioning the potential of collaboration is an ideal that may be > > > constrained. The *meaning* of collaboration was being modified and > > tending > > > in one direction. > > > Your reflection on the value of reflection as a *core* value shifted > our > > > engagement with this concept and collaboration *felt* different. > > > Collaboration went from feeling *suspect* to being a valued term. THIS > > > phenomena as felt tendency re-positions the concept of collaboration > in > > > our community. > > > Andy, you then propose the more appropriate *posing* [positioning] of > > this > > > question must be *what TYPE of collaboration* is or is not in the best > > > interest of this or that student. Which then poses/positions the > question > > > of "What TYPES of collaboration are there?". > > > > > > You suggest that EACH TYPE has a NORM and the particular ways the > > students > > > in this class are *normed* I would pose as expressing a particular > VALUE > > > position. > > > Therefore *types* AND *posings* AND *positionings* AND *values* AND > > > *norms* OF collaboration becomes a particular TYPE of storyline > [genre??] > > > > > > You are suggesting the concept *collaborative* is preferable to > > > *discourse*. I'm assuming you also would prefer *collaboration* to the > > > concept *dialogue*. > > > > > > I am curious if others share Andy's preference for the concept > > > *collaboration* and exploring TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration as a way > to > > > *reveal* [unmask??] the dynamic flow of *streams* of collaboration > > > as expanding and extending the understanding of BOTH positioning theory > > AND > > > collaboration. > > > > > > I will send a comment on another post which indicates the origin of > > > Harre's positioning theory within Vygotsky's cultural historical theory > > AS > > > a humanistic storyline > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:37 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > > > >> Donna, I agree that "Collaboration is incredible complex" but then you > > >> add "and hard to achieve." > > >> Rather than taking it that "collaboration" means one very strictly > > >> defined norm, couldn't we accept that all the phenomena you describe > > (and > > >> more) are aspects of collaboration, and that there is more than one > > norm of > > >> collaboratin and many more ways of falling short of normativity, of > > being > > >> betrayed, exploited, disappointed, misunderstood, etc., etc.? I prefer > > to > > >> take every human relationship as an instance of collaboration, that > is, > > I > > >> take collaboration as the lens through which to understand human > > >> relationships. But rather than setting up one norm against which every > > >> human experience turns out to be a dreadful failure, we could see > every > > >> human experience as being a window on the experience of collaboration, > > the > > >> expectations, the productivity, the potential for disappointment, > > >> exploitation, etc.? Is there a better way to understand human > > relationship? > > >> Discourse? I think "collaboration" is a superior conceptual framework > > than > > >> "discouse." > > >> > > >> Andy > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > >> > > >>> Thanks for the probes, Greg! > > >>> > > >>> I think that to answer your question, I may need to ask a series of > > >>> rhetorical questions. > > >>> > > >>> Have you ever worked collaboratively with others where: (a) someone > had > > >>> to agree to disagree? > > >>> (b) there was a slacker in the group? > > >>> (c) someone did all the work and all the talking? > > >>> (d) there was consensus but you wouldn't have called it > collaboration? > > >>> (e) what you hoped to gain from the experience was not up to what you > > >>> expected? > > >>> > > >>> I believe most people, including children, would answer yes to some > or > > >>> all of those questions. This is because there is an endemic deficit > to > > >>> collaboration that has been ignored in the literature in my view. > It's > > been > > >>> a cup overflowing discourse despite the realities of many people. > > >>> > > >>> I still have students collaborate - pretty extensively. My goals and > > >>> expectations are different now. My approach in sharing the > > expectations is > > >>> different now. I address those rhetorical questions head-on and > > encourage > > >>> the students to own their own responsibility and to keep others > > accountable. > > >>> > > >>> To some extent collaboration is merely an illusion. While we hope > that > > >>> shared discourse leads to learning, this can't be assumed and what is > > >>> learned, intended or otherwise, can't be assumed. Similar to teacher > > >>> directed learning, collaborative learning doesn't work for everyone. > > If an > > >>> artifact or a decision is the outcome of collaborations, it is > probable > > >>> that someone in the group perhaps didn't agree or had alternative > > ideas. > > >>> Collaboration and consensus are different. Collaboration is > incredible > > >>> complex and hard to achieve. Even as adults, the challenge is > > formidable - > > >>> its because there is an illusion that must be perpetuated in order to > > >>> achieve an end. Ultimately, a united front is presented - despite the > > fact > > >>> that there may have been problems. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Sat Mar 29 04:58:22 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 07:58:22 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> Message-ID: <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this invitation. I admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking in a number of ways. Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest to collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may not be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student that really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative effort is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of human interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that must be weighted. Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given the option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would surmise that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" students, for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have compromised her intellectual outcomes. Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting case. Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, Andy Blunden wrote: Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging to them. What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > > Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an > instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic > expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is > compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in > collaborative activities with children and schools. > > Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types > of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school > setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the > possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive > silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive > privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of > learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Mar 29 07:50:44 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 08:50:44 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional problem here: What is collaboration? Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be human is to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all the way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms are collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students begin as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one must ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that matter). "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as exceptions to the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And in theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very particular meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is true from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows this same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this involves an active and conscious decision to do something different from what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. Some are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). But it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something unnatural that one must "make" happen. It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in the literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is sold to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue the questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse about "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental assumptions that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative classrooms" are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class clown's jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against the teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times that are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to collaborate or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. Collaboration anyone? -greg On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this invitation. I > admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking in a > number of ways. > > Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest to > collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may not > be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student that > really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such > instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well > being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative effort > is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of human > interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that must > be weighted. > > Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given the > option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would surmise > that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" students, > for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > > Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have > compromised her intellectual outcomes. > > Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and > then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting case. > Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group > membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would > compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. > > Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for > him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > > Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. > > d. > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, Andy > Blunden wrote: > > Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to > discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > > I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say > that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best > interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be > *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this > or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms > by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging > to them. > > What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > > > > Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an > > instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic > > expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is > > compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in > > collaborative activities with children and schools. > > > > Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types > > of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school > > setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the > > possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive > > silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive > > privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of > > learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lstone@skymail.csus.edu Sat Mar 29 11:01:18 2014 From: lstone@skymail.csus.edu (Stone, Lynda) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:01:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> Hi Greg! Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm dropping in to make a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the conversation around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist angle, equally important is a biological one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we come with the ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative process. So, each and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some relatively shared understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so forth, they are engaged in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part in an event/activity. And, because events/activities come into existence through discourse practices and are influenced by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger culture), to understand collaboration from participants' point of view requires an understanding of the situation they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, collaboration in educational settings is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in contrast to traditional educational practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, just as infants learn how over time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at this moment? And, "how should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other contextual questions that can help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be configured. For example, how do children come to value (or see as morally right) helping/coordinating behaviors? Under what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is this related to the social norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what collaboration means and as a consequence influences the social processes that enable children to cooperate (or not) with each other. An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a positioning process---one that is also influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in learning activity with others. There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out "collaboration"---I hope my musings on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has certainly pushed my thinking-- An appreciative lurker! -lynda What KINDS of > collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional problem > here: What is collaboration? > > Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be human is > to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all the > way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms are > collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. > > The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about > education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students begin > as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one must > ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that matter). > "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as exceptions to > the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And in > theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very particular > meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is true > from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > > I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows this > same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this > involves an active and conscious decision to do something different from > what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work > together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. Some > are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). But > it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something > unnatural that one must "make" happen. > > It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in the > literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is sold > to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > > So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue the > questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse about > "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental assumptions > that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative classrooms" > are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't > collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class clown's > jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against the > teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the > principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even > Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this > classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times that > are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > > And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to collaborate > or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of > collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. > > Collaboration anyone? > -greg > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this invitation. I >> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking in a >> number of ways. >> >> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest to >> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may not >> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student that >> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such >> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well >> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative effort >> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of human >> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that must >> be weighted. >> >> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given the >> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would surmise >> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" students, >> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >> >> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have >> compromised her intellectual outcomes. >> >> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and >> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting case. >> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group >> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would >> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. >> >> Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for >> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >> >> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. >> >> d. >> >> >> >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >> Wilfrid Laurier University >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> >> >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended >> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any >> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, Andy >> Blunden wrote: >> >> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to >> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >> >> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say >> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best >> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be >> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this >> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms >> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging >> to them. >> >> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >> >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >>> >>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an >>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic >>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is >>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in >>> collaborative activities with children and schools. >>> >>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types >>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school >>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the >>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive >>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive >>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of >>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Mar 29 12:38:34 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 13:38:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> Message-ID: Lynda, Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the center of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. On the other hand you point out that we have to teach children to collaborate, and collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education (which is, by implication, not collaborative). I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is collaborative - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes appear not to be good for everyone. Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which "collaboration" is everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which it must be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative classrooms". That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks discussing on the listserve. And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of "collaboration" and notions of "classroom collaboration". For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of "collaboration" can be differently productive for different children. And also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative classrooms" might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many problems that confront us without some form of "collaboration." That's just my two nickels worth. (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). -greg "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which I can seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the consciousness of myself as a social being." Marx, 1844, p. 298 On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda wrote: > Hi Greg! > > Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm dropping in > to make > a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > > Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the > conversation > around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist > angle, equally > important is a biological one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we come > with the > ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative > process. So, each > and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some relatively > shared > understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so > forth, they are engaged > in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part in an > event/activity. And, > because events/activities come into existence through discourse practices > and are influenced > by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger > culture), to understand > collaboration from participants' point of view requires an understanding > of the situation > they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, collaboration > in educational settings > is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in contrast to > traditional educational > practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, just > as infants learn how over > time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > > So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at this > moment? And, "how > should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other contextual > questions that can > help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be > configured. For example, > how do children come to value (or see as morally right) > helping/coordinating behaviors? Under > what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is > this related to the social > norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what > collaboration means and as a > consequence influences the social processes that enable children to > cooperate (or not) with each other. > An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a > positioning process---one that is also > influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in > learning activity with others. > > There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > "collaboration"---I hope my musings > on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has certainly > pushed my thinking-- > > An appreciative lurker! > -lynda > > > > > > > > > What KINDS of > > collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. > > On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional > problem > > here: What is collaboration? > > > > Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be human is > > to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all the > > way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms are > > collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. > > > > The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about > > education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students > begin > > as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one must > > ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that matter). > > "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as exceptions to > > the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And in > > theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very > particular > > meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is true > > from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > > > > I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows > this > > same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this > > involves an active and conscious decision to do something different from > > what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work > > together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. > Some > > are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). > But > > it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something > > unnatural that one must "make" happen. > > > > It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in > the > > literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > > classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is > sold > > to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > > collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > > > > So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue the > > questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse > about > > "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > assumptions > > that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative classrooms" > > are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't > > collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class > clown's > > jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against the > > teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the > > principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even > > Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this > > classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times that > > are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > > > > And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to > collaborate > > or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of > > collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. > > > > Collaboration anyone? > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > wrote: > > > >> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > invitation. I > >> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking > in a > >> number of ways. > >> > >> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest > to > >> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may > not > >> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student > that > >> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such > >> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well > >> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative > effort > >> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of > human > >> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that > must > >> be weighted. > >> > >> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given > the > >> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would > surmise > >> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" > students, > >> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >> > >> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have > >> compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >> > >> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and > >> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting > case. > >> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group > >> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would > >> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. > >> > >> Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for > >> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >> > >> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. > >> > >> d. > >> > >> > >> > >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >> Associate Professor > >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > >> Wilfrid Laurier University > >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >> > >> > >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > >> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). > Any > >> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, > Andy > >> Blunden wrote: > >> > >> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to > >> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >> > >> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say > >> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best > >> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be > >> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this > >> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > >> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms > >> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging > >> to them. > >> > >> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>> > >>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an > >>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic > >>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is > >>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in > >>> collaborative activities with children and schools. > >>> > >>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types > >>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school > >>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the > >>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive > >>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive > >>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of > >>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Mar 29 13:34:43 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 14:34:43 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? Message-ID: Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and befindlichkeit. Anyone? My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced or lived through by different children in different ways. Neither 'emotional experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective aspect of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of the interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was a central term for Heidegger). Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace Dilthey) and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie to map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. Any info much appreciated. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ewall@umich.edu Sat Mar 29 14:20:19 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:20:19 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2048AC78-26CA-4F18-BC89-DD67BBBA01E6@umich.edu> Geoff Inwood spends a bit of time (around page 62 in A Heidegger Dictionary) discussing Heidegger's thinking about erlibnis (he says among other things that Heidegger was wary of the term and used it to somewhat suggest 'experience,' but that Heidegger saw it as expressing an inner event intrinsically detached both from the body and the external world). Befindlichkeit (Inwood is reasonable here also), on the other hand and for Heidegger, refers to 'being in a mood' or 'how we sense ourselves' (it is a bit more complicated than this for Heidegger). To regard moods as experiences, for Heidegger, ignores the way in which they disclose Dasein and the World. I, by the way, know quite a bit more Heidegger than German (smile). Ed On Mar 29, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and > befindlichkeit. Anyone? > > My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of > Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: > "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and > the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced or > lived through by different children in different ways. Neither 'emotional > experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective aspect > of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too > exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its > meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. > 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." > > Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit > (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was > wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of the > interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was a > central term for Heidegger). > > Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace Dilthey) > and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie to > map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. > > Any info much appreciated. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ewall@umich.edu Sat Mar 29 14:21:37 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 16:21:37 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg Apologies for the name mistake. Ed > Geoff > > Inwood spends a bit of time (around page 62 in A Heidegger Dictionary) discussing Heidegger's thinking about erlibnis (he says among other things that Heidegger was wary of the term and used it to somewhat suggest 'experience,' but that Heidegger saw it as expressing an inner event intrinsically detached both from the body and the external world). Befindlichkeit (Inwood is reasonable here also), on the other hand and for Heidegger, refers to 'being in a mood' or 'how we sense ourselves' (it is a bit more complicated than this for Heidegger). To regard moods as experiences, for Heidegger, ignores the way in which they disclose Dasein and the World. > > I, by the way, know quite a bit more Heidegger than German (smile). > > Ed On Mar 29, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and > befindlichkeit. Anyone? > > My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of > Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: > "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and > the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced or > lived through by different children in different ways. Neither 'emotional > experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective aspect > of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too > exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its > meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. > 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." > > Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit > (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was > wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of the > interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was a > central term for Heidegger). > > Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace Dilthey) > and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie to > map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. > > Any info much appreciated. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 29 16:47:13 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:47:13 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53375B81.6000906@mira.net> Van der Veer, p. 354 of The Vygotsky Reader. For a collection of explanations: http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and > befindlichkeit. Anyone? > > My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of > Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: > "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and > the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced or > lived through by different children in different ways. Neither 'emotional > experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective aspect > of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too > exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its > meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. > 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Mar 29 17:43:05 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:43:05 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> Message-ID: <53376899.7060408@mira.net> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" (?) are meaningful. In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a great extent before the collaborators meet. Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Lynda, > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the center > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. On the > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to collaborate, and > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is collaborative > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes appear > not to be good for everyone. > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which "collaboration" is > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which it must > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > classrooms". > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks discussing > on the listserve. > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of "collaboration" > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different children. And > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative classrooms" > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many problems > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > That's just my two nickels worth. > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > -greg > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which I can > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the > consciousness of myself as a social being." > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda wrote: > > >> Hi Greg! >> >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm dropping in >> to make >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. >> >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the >> conversation >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist >> angle, equally >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we come >> with the >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative >> process. So, each >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some relatively >> shared >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so >> forth, they are engaged >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part in an >> event/activity. And, >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse practices >> and are influenced >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger >> culture), to understand >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an understanding >> of the situation >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, collaboration >> in educational settings >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in contrast to >> traditional educational >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, just >> as infants learn how over >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. >> >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at this >> moment? And, "how >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other contextual >> questions that can >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be >> configured. For example, >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is >> this related to the social >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what >> collaboration means and as a >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children to >> cooperate (or not) with each other. >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a >> positioning process---one that is also >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in >> learning activity with others. >> >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has certainly >> pushed my thinking-- >> >> An appreciative lurker! >> -lynda >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What KINDS of >> >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. >>> >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional >>> >> problem >> >>> here: What is collaboration? >>> >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be human is >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all the >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms are >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. >>> >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students >>> >> begin >> >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one must >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that matter). >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as exceptions to >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And in >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very >>> >> particular >> >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is true >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). >>> >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows >>> >> this >> >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something different from >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. >>> >> Some >> >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). >>> >> But >> >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. >>> >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in >>> >> the >> >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is >>> >> sold >> >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). >>> >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue the >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse >>> >> about >> >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental >>> >> assumptions >> >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative classrooms" >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class >>> >> clown's >> >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against the >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times that >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). >>> >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to >>> >> collaborate >> >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. >>> >>> Collaboration anyone? >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos >>> >> wrote: >> >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this >>>> >> invitation. I >> >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking >>>> >> in a >> >>>> number of ways. >>>> >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest >>>> >> to >> >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may >>>> >> not >> >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student >>>> >> that >> >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative >>>> >> effort >> >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of >>>> >> human >> >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that >>>> >> must >> >>>> be weighted. >>>> >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given >>>> >> the >> >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would >>>> >> surmise >> >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" >>>> >> students, >> >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >>>> >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. >>>> >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting >>>> >> case. >> >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. >>>> >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >>>> >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. >>>> >>>> d. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >>>> >>>> >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). >>>> >> Any >> >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>> >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, >>>>>>> >> Andy >> >>>> Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >>>> >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging >>>> to them. >>>> >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. >>>>> >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Mar 29 18:52:37 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 18:52:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53376899.7060408@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, you wrote, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. I want to add a comment that it may be BOTH pre-existing AND emerging. Following is a reflection on Dorothy Howie's and Michael Peters article "Positioning Theory: Vygotsky, Wittgenstein, and Social Constructionist Theory". I will focus in on the emergent *aspect* of positioning theory. It also explores Greg's Vygotsky- Heidegger question. I am referencing page 59 and 60. Dorothy Howie is exploring the processes involved in the ENHANCEMENT of reciprocity and empathy.which recognizes and affirms the uniqueness of conversational partners within a SYMBIOTIC relationship which Harre attributes to his reading of Vygotsky. Harre [in a quote by Howie] states, "I shall use the term [psychological symbiosis] for every case in which a group of people complete through public SYMBIOTIC activity, particulary in speaking for each other inadequate social and psychological beings." Vygotsky cites as an example of symbiotic relationship the way in which a mother gives meaning to a child's unsuccessful grasping activity so that it is later understood as pointing. Such SUPPLEMENTATION AND ENHANCEMENT of meanings as a stream of positioning can also be found in adult well developed individuals. On this theme Dorothy then brings in Bahktin to her exploration of the interpersonal social psychology. Bahktin's awareness that we do not ENTER INTO dialogue but rather one EXISTS WITHIN an ongoing and unfinalizable process of conversation Dorothy then adds that this conversational process can even include a SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP with literature. Literature can *speak for us* and reflecting on this symbiotic *voice of the other* within our internal conversations we construct new meanings and sense relating to our self and our *worlds* [as positions] Dorothy then moves to Kozulin's exploration of this symbiotic relationship. Dorothy quote Kozulin as interpreting Vygotsky when Kozulin wrote, "intrapsychologically, a person as an author communicates with himself AS A READER with the help of similar symbolic mediators. Artistic discourse is therefore neither a REPRESENTATION nor an EMBELLISHMENT of life, but its most POWERFUL PARADIGM. Andy, I want to emphasize that I am exploring an ASPECT of positioning theory which may extend and expand the reflections on the pre-existing aspects of positioning theory. Symbiotic *felt tendency* may be exploring particular TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration. It may relate to Russian Humanism which some readers will privilege while others attend more to the pre-existing institutional aspects as other TYPES OR KINDS of collaboration. Greg, I read Kozulin and Shotter and Harre and Donna's article as extending this ASPECT of positioning theory as *felt tendency* [William James] This in no way backgrounds the institutional aspects of positioning theory and the social rhetorical aspects of positioning theory. However, this aspect does share a family resemblance with Bahktin's and Heidegger's and Gadamer's understanding of existing WITHIN experience. The interpersonal NOT as two pre-existing *objects* which then enter into relationships but rather exploring the aspect of experience which is foregrounding the relational dynamic processes within which persons develop. This is my personal *reading* of positioning theoryand may be very idiosyncratic . Mike, I did not attach Dorothy Howie's article to XMCA I googled "positioning theory and Vygotsky* and found the article. In the top right corner of the website displaying the article's abstract you can click on *register* and then you can download 3 journalarticles free in a 14 day period. Larry On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask "How > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has acquired the > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are somewhat > educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" (?) are meaningful. > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a great > extent before the collaborators meet. > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist > their instantiation in any collaborative act. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Lynda, >> Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the center >> of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that >> collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. On >> the >> other hand you point out that we have to teach children to collaborate, >> and >> collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education >> (which is, by implication, not collaborative). >> >> I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is collaborative >> - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a >> "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in >> traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for >> everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes appear >> not to be good for everyone. >> >> Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which "collaboration" is >> everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which it must >> be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative >> classrooms". >> >> That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks >> discussing >> on the listserve. >> >> And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be >> done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of "collaboration" >> and notions of "classroom collaboration". >> >> For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. >> "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of >> "collaboration" can be differently productive for different children. And >> also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom >> collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! >> >> So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative >> classrooms" >> might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many problems >> that confront us without some form of "collaboration." >> >> That's just my two nickels worth. >> (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). >> -greg >> >> "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which I can >> seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is >> social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my >> activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which >> the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore >> that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the >> consciousness of myself as a social being." >> Marx, 1844, p. 298 >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Greg! >>> >>> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm dropping >>> in >>> to make >>> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. >>> >>> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the >>> conversation >>> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist >>> angle, equally >>> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we >>> come >>> with the >>> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative >>> process. So, each >>> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some relatively >>> shared >>> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so >>> forth, they are engaged >>> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part in an >>> event/activity. And, >>> because events/activities come into existence through discourse practices >>> and are influenced >>> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger >>> culture), to understand >>> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an understanding >>> of the situation >>> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, collaboration >>> in educational settings >>> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in contrast to >>> traditional educational >>> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, >>> just >>> as infants learn how over >>> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. >>> >>> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at this >>> moment? And, "how >>> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other contextual >>> questions that can >>> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be >>> configured. For example, >>> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) >>> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under >>> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is >>> this related to the social >>> norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what >>> collaboration means and as a >>> consequence influences the social processes that enable children to >>> cooperate (or not) with each other. >>> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a >>> positioning process---one that is also >>> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in >>> learning activity with others. >>> >>> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out >>> "collaboration"---I hope my musings >>> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has certainly >>> pushed my thinking-- >>> >>> An appreciative lurker! >>> -lynda >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> What KINDS of >>> >>> >>>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. >>>> >>>> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional >>>> >>>> >>> problem >>> >>> >>>> here: What is collaboration? >>>> >>>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be human >>>> is >>>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all the >>>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms are >>>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. >>>> >>>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about >>>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students >>>> >>>> >>> begin >>> >>> >>>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one >>>> must >>>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that >>>> matter). >>>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as exceptions >>>> to >>>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And in >>>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very >>>> >>>> >>> particular >>> >>> >>>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is true >>>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). >>>> >>>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows >>>> >>>> >>> this >>> >>> >>>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this >>>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something different from >>>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work >>>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. >>>> >>>> >>> Some >>> >>> >>>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). >>>> >>>> >>> But >>> >>> >>>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something >>>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. >>>> >>>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in >>>> >>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative >>>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is >>>> >>>> >>> sold >>> >>> >>>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of >>>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). >>>> >>>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue the >>>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse >>>> >>>> >>> about >>> >>> >>>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental >>>> >>>> >>> assumptions >>> >>> >>>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative >>>> classrooms" >>>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't >>>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class >>>> >>>> >>> clown's >>> >>> >>>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against the >>>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the >>>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even >>>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this >>>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times >>>> that >>>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). >>>> >>>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to >>>> >>>> >>> collaborate >>> >>> >>>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of >>>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. >>>> >>>> Collaboration anyone? >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos >>>> >>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this >>>>> >>>>> >>>> invitation. I >>> >>> >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking >>>>> >>>>> >>>> in a >>> >>> >>>> number of ways. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest >>>>> >>>>> >>>> to >>> >>> >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may >>>>> >>>>> >>>> not >>> >>> >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student >>>>> >>>>> >>>> that >>> >>> >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such >>>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well >>>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative >>>>> >>>>> >>>> effort >>> >>> >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of >>>>> >>>>> >>>> human >>> >>> >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that >>>>> >>>>> >>>> must >>> >>> >>>> be weighted. >>>>> >>>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given >>>>> >>>>> >>>> the >>> >>> >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would >>>>> >>>>> >>>> surmise >>> >>> >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> students, >>> >>> >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >>>>> >>>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have >>>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. >>>>> >>>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and >>>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting >>>>> >>>>> >>>> case. >>> >>> >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group >>>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would >>>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. >>>>> >>>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for >>>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >>>>> >>>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. >>>>> >>>>> d. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >>>>> Wilfrid Laurier University >>>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >>>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >>>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >>>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >>>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >>>>> intended >>>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Any >>> >>> >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy >>> >>> >>>> Blunden wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to >>>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >>>>> >>>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say >>>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best >>>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be >>>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this >>>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >>>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed >>>>> mechanisms >>>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be >>>>> damaging >>>>> to them. >>>>> >>>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an >>>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic >>>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is >>>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in >>>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types >>>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school >>>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the >>>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive >>>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive >>>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of >>>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Sun Mar 30 03:42:11 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: 30 Mar 2014 06:42:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <53376899.7060408@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> Message-ID: <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research and "theory of self" here would be a useful. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, Andy Blunden wrote: I'm learning a lot from all this! :) If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" (?) are meaningful. In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a great extent before the collaborators meet. Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Lynda, > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the center > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. On the > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to collaborate, and > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is collaborative > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes appear > not to be good for everyone. > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which "collaboration" is > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which it must > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > classrooms". > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks discussing > on the listserve. > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of "collaboration" > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different children. And > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative classrooms" > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many problems > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > That's just my two nickels worth. > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > -greg > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which I can > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in which > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and therefore > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the > consciousness of myself as a social being." > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda wrote: > > >> Hi Greg! >> >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm dropping in >> to make >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. >> >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the >> conversation >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist >> angle, equally >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we come >> with the >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative >> process. So, each >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some relatively >> shared >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so >> forth, they are engaged >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part in an >> event/activity. And, >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse practices >> and are influenced >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger >> culture), to understand >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an understanding >> of the situation >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, collaboration >> in educational settings >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in contrast to >> traditional educational >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, just >> as infants learn how over >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. >> >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at this >> moment? And, "how >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other contextual >> questions that can >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be >> configured. For example, >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is >> this related to the social >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what >> collaboration means and as a >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children to >> cooperate (or not) with each other. >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a >> positioning process---one that is also >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in >> learning activity with others. >> >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has certainly >> pushed my thinking-- >> >> An appreciative lurker! >> -lynda >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What KINDS of >> >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. >>> >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional >>> >> problem >> >>> here: What is collaboration? >>> >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be human is >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all the >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms are >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. >>> >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students >>> >> begin >> >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one must >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that matter). >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as exceptions to >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And in >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very >>> >> particular >> >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is true >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). >>> >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows >>> >> this >> >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something different from >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. >>> >> Some >> >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). >>> >> But >> >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. >>> >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in >>> >> the >> >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is >>> >> sold >> >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). >>> >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue the >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse >>> >> about >> >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental >>> >> assumptions >> >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative classrooms" >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class >>> >> clown's >> >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against the >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times that >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). >>> >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to >>> >> collaborate >> >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be configured. >>> >>> Collaboration anyone? >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos >>> >> wrote: >> >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this >>>> >> invitation. I >> >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking >>>> >> in a >> >>>> number of ways. >>>> >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best interest >>>> >> to >> >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may >>>> >> not >> >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student >>>> >> that >> >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative >>>> >> effort >> >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of >>>> >> human >> >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that >>>> >> must >> >>>> be weighted. >>>> >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if given >>>> >> the >> >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would >>>> >> surmise >> >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" >>>> >> students, >> >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >>>> >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. >>>> >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, and >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting >>>> >> case. >> >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the group >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. >>>> >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the work for >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >>>> >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. >>>> >>>> d. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >>>> >>>> >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). >>>> >> Any >> >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>>> >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, >>>>>>> >> Andy >> >>>> Blunden wrote: >>>> >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy to >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >>>> >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to say >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of this >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed mechanisms >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be damaging >>>> to them. >>>> >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. >>>>> >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these types >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 30 07:11:48 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 14:11:48 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: <2048AC78-26CA-4F18-BC89-DD67BBBA01E6@umich.edu> References: <2048AC78-26CA-4F18-BC89-DD67BBBA01E6@umich.edu> Message-ID: <47FDD691-CC2E-4240-9A3A-C4734ADDD0AB@uniandes.edu.co> Hi Greg, The Russian term used to translate Befindlichkeit seems to be ?????????????, nastroennost?. Sein und Zeit was published in 1927; I don't know when it was translated into Russian. (A book by Maryse Dennes suggests that translation was very late: Thomas Seifrid (The Word Made Self) claims that Sein und Zeit (Heidegger's first academic publication, I believe) was first reviewed in Russia in 1928. All of which suggests it was pretty late to have influenced Vygotsky. Martin On Mar 29, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > Geoff > > Inwood spends a bit of time (around page 62 in A Heidegger Dictionary) discussing Heidegger's thinking about erlibnis (he says among other things that Heidegger was wary of the term and used it to somewhat suggest 'experience,' but that Heidegger saw it as expressing an inner event intrinsically detached both from the body and the external world). Befindlichkeit (Inwood is reasonable here also), on the other hand and for Heidegger, refers to 'being in a mood' or 'how we sense ourselves' (it is a bit more complicated than this for Heidegger). To regard moods as experiences, for Heidegger, ignores the way in which they disclose Dasein and the World. > > I, by the way, know quite a bit more Heidegger than German (smile). > > Ed > > On Mar 29, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and >> befindlichkeit. Anyone? >> >> My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of >> Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: >> "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and >> the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced or >> lived through by different children in different ways. Neither 'emotional >> experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective aspect >> of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too >> exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its >> meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. >> 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." >> >> Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit >> (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was >> wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of the >> interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was a >> central term for Heidegger). >> >> Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace Dilthey) >> and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie to >> map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. >> >> Any info much appreciated. >> -greg >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Sun Mar 30 08:32:00 2014 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:32:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: <47FDD691-CC2E-4240-9A3A-C4734ADDD0AB@uniandes.edu.co> References: <2048AC78-26CA-4F18-BC89-DD67BBBA01E6@umich.edu> <47FDD691-CC2E-4240-9A3A-C4734ADDD0AB@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: A most interesting thread. For what it's worth, Vygotsky is known to have read German (Wertsch, J. V. (1985). Vygotsky and the social formation of mind. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press) so the absence/delay of a Russian translation in itself, would not have prevented his reading "Being and Time" in the original. On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Martin John Packer < mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > The Russian term used to translate Befindlichkeit seems to be > ?????????????, nastroennost?. Sein und Zeit was published in 1927; I don't > know when it was translated into Russian. (A book by Maryse Dennes suggests > that translation was very late: > < > http://books.google.com.co/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mFEbRNqqfKEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA7&dq=maryse+dennes&ots=kkAXTFNUHw&sig=Dg8fULSIeJ9kd2InipP7E2XSLvk&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sein%20und%20Zeit&f=false > > > > Thomas Seifrid (The Word Made Self) claims that Sein und Zeit (Heidegger's > first academic publication, I believe) was first reviewed in Russia in > 1928. All of which suggests it was pretty late to have influenced Vygotsky. > > Martin > > On Mar 29, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > Geoff > > > > Inwood spends a bit of time (around page 62 in A Heidegger > Dictionary) discussing Heidegger's thinking about erlibnis (he says among > other things that Heidegger was wary of the term and used it to somewhat > suggest 'experience,' but that Heidegger saw it as expressing an inner > event intrinsically detached both from the body and the external world). > Befindlichkeit (Inwood is reasonable here also), on the other hand and for > Heidegger, refers to 'being in a mood' or 'how we sense ourselves' (it is a > bit more complicated than this for Heidegger). To regard moods as > experiences, for Heidegger, ignores the way in which they disclose Dasein > and the World. > > > > I, by the way, know quite a bit more Heidegger than German (smile). > > > > Ed > > > > On Mar 29, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >> Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and > >> befindlichkeit. Anyone? > >> > >> My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of > >> Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: > >> "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and > >> the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced > or > >> lived through by different children in different ways. Neither > 'emotional > >> experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective > aspect > >> of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too > >> exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its > >> meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. > >> 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." > >> > >> Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit > >> (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was > >> wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of > the > >> interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was > a > >> central term for Heidegger). > >> > >> Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace > Dilthey) > >> and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie > to > >> map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. > >> > >> Any info much appreciated. > >> -greg > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 30 15:12:52 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:12:52 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: References: <2048AC78-26CA-4F18-BC89-DD67BBBA01E6@umich.edu> <47FDD691-CC2E-4240-9A3A-C4734ADDD0AB@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <456BCF24-BEFD-4DF7-A74F-2A798DD30337@uniandes.edu.co> Heidegger's book may well have interested Vygotsky. LSV's teacher Spet had written a book, Appearance & Sense, that had introduced Husserl's transcendental phenomenology to Russian scholars. This introduction was already an appropriation, and with subsequent writing his work increasingly became what was subsequently called hermeneutic phenomenology. Heidegger, Husserl's student, made a similar break with Husserl, drawing on Schleiermacher and others to lay out what he too called a hermeneutic phenomenology. Martin On Mar 30, 2014, at 10:32 AM, Daniel Hyman wrote: > A most interesting thread. For what it's worth, Vygotsky is known to have > read German (Wertsch, J. V. (1985). Vygotsky and the social formation of > mind. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press) so the absence/delay of a > Russian translation in itself, would not have prevented his reading "Being > and Time" in the original. > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: > >> Hi Greg, >> >> The Russian term used to translate Befindlichkeit seems to be >> ?????????????, nastroennost?. Sein und Zeit was published in 1927; I don't >> know when it was translated into Russian. (A book by Maryse Dennes suggests >> that translation was very late: >> < >> http://books.google.com.co/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mFEbRNqqfKEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA7&dq=maryse+dennes&ots=kkAXTFNUHw&sig=Dg8fULSIeJ9kd2InipP7E2XSLvk&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sein%20und%20Zeit&f=false >>> >> >> Thomas Seifrid (The Word Made Self) claims that Sein und Zeit (Heidegger's >> first academic publication, I believe) was first reviewed in Russia in >> 1928. All of which suggests it was pretty late to have influenced Vygotsky. >> >> Martin >> >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Ed Wall wrote: >> >>> Geoff >>> >>> Inwood spends a bit of time (around page 62 in A Heidegger >> Dictionary) discussing Heidegger's thinking about erlibnis (he says among >> other things that Heidegger was wary of the term and used it to somewhat >> suggest 'experience,' but that Heidegger saw it as expressing an inner >> event intrinsically detached both from the body and the external world). >> Befindlichkeit (Inwood is reasonable here also), on the other hand and for >> Heidegger, refers to 'being in a mood' or 'how we sense ourselves' (it is a >> bit more complicated than this for Heidegger). To regard moods as >> experiences, for Heidegger, ignores the way in which they disclose Dasein >> and the World. >>> >>> I, by the way, know quite a bit more Heidegger than German (smile). >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and >>>> befindlichkeit. Anyone? >>>> >>>> My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of >>>> Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: >>>> "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and >>>> the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced >> or >>>> lived through by different children in different ways. Neither >> 'emotional >>>> experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective >> aspect >>>> of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too >>>> exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its >>>> meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. >>>> 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." >>>> >>>> Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit >>>> (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was >>>> wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of >> the >>>> interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was >> a >>>> central term for Heidegger). >>>> >>>> Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace >> Dilthey) >>>> and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie >> to >>>> map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. >>>> >>>> Any info much appreciated. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >> >> >> From ewall@umich.edu Sun Mar 30 15:58:26 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 17:58:26 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: German experts: erlibnis vs. befindlichkeit? In-Reply-To: <456BCF24-BEFD-4DF7-A74F-2A798DD30337@uniandes.edu.co> References: <2048AC78-26CA-4F18-BC89-DD67BBBA01E6@umich.edu> <47FDD691-CC2E-4240-9A3A-C4734ADDD0AB@uniandes.edu.co> <456BCF24-BEFD-4DF7-A74F-2A798DD30337@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin Kissel claims that it isn't until Heidigger's Lecture titled Phenomenological Interpretations of Aristotle (1921-22) that he begins to talk much about befindlichkeit so it seems possible there may have been discussions going on before 1927. Caputo claims that any phenomenology has a hermeneutical element; however, I am unfamiliar with much naming of Husserl's phenomenology as a hermeneutic phenomenology and I seem to remember that Heidegger later sort of drops discussion of hermeneutic phenomenology which is not taken up much again until Gadamer. Anyway, I would appreciate a reference to Husserl's calling his phenomenology a hermeneutic phenomenology. Ed On Mar 30, 2014, at 5:12 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Heidegger's book may well have interested Vygotsky. LSV's teacher Spet had written a book, Appearance & Sense, that had introduced Husserl's transcendental phenomenology to Russian scholars. This introduction was already an appropriation, and with subsequent writing his work increasingly became what was subsequently called hermeneutic phenomenology. Heidegger, Husserl's student, made a similar break with Husserl, drawing on Schleiermacher and others to lay out what he too called a hermeneutic phenomenology. > > Martin > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 10:32 AM, Daniel Hyman wrote: > >> A most interesting thread. For what it's worth, Vygotsky is known to have >> read German (Wertsch, J. V. (1985). Vygotsky and the social formation of >> mind. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press) so the absence/delay of a >> Russian translation in itself, would not have prevented his reading "Being >> and Time" in the original. >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> The Russian term used to translate Befindlichkeit seems to be >>> ?????????????, nastroennost?. Sein und Zeit was published in 1927; I don't >>> know when it was translated into Russian. (A book by Maryse Dennes suggests >>> that translation was very late: >>> < >>> http://books.google.com.co/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mFEbRNqqfKEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA7&dq=maryse+dennes&ots=kkAXTFNUHw&sig=Dg8fULSIeJ9kd2InipP7E2XSLvk&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sein%20und%20Zeit&f=false >>>> >>> >>> Thomas Seifrid (The Word Made Self) claims that Sein und Zeit (Heidegger's >>> first academic publication, I believe) was first reviewed in Russia in >>> 1928. All of which suggests it was pretty late to have influenced Vygotsky. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Ed Wall wrote: >>> >>>> Geoff >>>> >>>> Inwood spends a bit of time (around page 62 in A Heidegger >>> Dictionary) discussing Heidegger's thinking about erlibnis (he says among >>> other things that Heidegger was wary of the term and used it to somewhat >>> suggest 'experience,' but that Heidegger saw it as expressing an inner >>> event intrinsically detached both from the body and the external world). >>> Befindlichkeit (Inwood is reasonable here also), on the other hand and for >>> Heidegger, refers to 'being in a mood' or 'how we sense ourselves' (it is a >>> bit more complicated than this for Heidegger). To regard moods as >>> experiences, for Heidegger, ignores the way in which they disclose Dasein >>> and the World. >>>> >>>> I, by the way, know quite a bit more Heidegger than German (smile). >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Trying to figure out the main differences between erlebnis and >>>>> befindlichkeit. Anyone? >>>>> >>>>> My question stems from the fact that in the marxists.org version of >>>>> Vygotsky's The Problem of the Environment, the editor (Andy?) notes: >>>>> "The Russian term *perezhivanie *serves to express the idea that one and >>>>> the same objective situation may be interpreted, perceived, experienced >>> or >>>>> lived through by different children in different ways. Neither >>> 'emotional >>>>> experience' (which is used here and which only covers the affective >>> aspect >>>>> of the meaning of *perezhivanie*), nor 'interpretation' (which is too >>>>> exclusively rational) are fully adequate translations of the noun. Its >>>>> meaning is closely linked to that of the German verb 'erleben' (cf. >>>>> 'Erlebnis', 'erlebte Wirklichkeit')." >>>>> >>>>> Having some very minimal familiarity with the German term Befindlichkeit >>>>> (my source: http://www.focusing.org/gendlin_befindlichkeit.html), I was >>>>> wondering what kinds of differences exist between these terms. (part of >>> the >>>>> interest here is in Vygotsky-Heidegger connections - befindlichkeit was >>> a >>>>> central term for Heidegger). >>>>> >>>>> Seems like erlebnis would be more of the romantic tradition (pace >>> Dilthey) >>>>> and might therefore be the more likely term for Vygotsky's perezhivanie >>> to >>>>> map onto, but just wondering about if there is more to this link. >>>>> >>>>> Any info much appreciated. >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Sun Mar 30 17:10:00 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 21:10:00 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?Heidegger=E2=80=99s_Notebooks_Renew_Focus_on_Anti-Semi?= =?utf-8?q?tism_-_NYTimes=2Ecom?= Message-ID: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. DP mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? Enviado desde mi iPhone From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Mar 30 18:02:01 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 01:02:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?windows-1252?q?Heidegger=92s_Notebooks_Renew_Focus_on_Anti-?= =?windows-1252?q?Semitism_-_NYTimes=2Ecom?= In-Reply-To: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> Message-ID: <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> Hi David, Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) Martin Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: > As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. > DP > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > > Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > > > Enviado desde mi iPhone From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Mar 30 18:15:48 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 18:15:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: NYTimes.com: Can We Close the Pay Gap? - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <5338bf74.211f8c0a.a312.6d65SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <5338bf74.211f8c0a.a312.6d65SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I am forwarding this story from the NY Times today because it speaks to our ongoing discussion of the 99%/1% issue coming to public consciousness and emerging as an articulatable isssue, a social representation, by both the Democratic and Republican leadership. Tuck it away while the issues raised by Donna's stimulating article play themselves out. One question that has arising for me as a result of being a peripheral participant in the discussion is how, in general, positionality theory theorizes diversity and the process by which differences become deficits. What turns the key? mike Can We Close the Pay Gap? - NYTimes.com By DEBORAH HARGREAVES The disparity between a chief executive?s pay and the average worker?s wage is larger than ever. What can be done? Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/1f5ZTLH To get unlimited access to all New York Times articles, subscribe today. See Subscription Options. To ensure delivery to your inbox, please add nytdirect@nytimes.com to your address book. Advertisement Copyright 2014 | The New York Times Company | NYTimes.com 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Mar 30 19:47:57 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:47:57 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin: I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi David, > > Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > > Martin > > Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: > >> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >> DP >> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >> >> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >> >> >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 30 20:01:36 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:01:36 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> Donna, I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories here. Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, and "different points of view." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has > taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline > infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual > level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or > make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully > familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research > and "theory of self" here would be a useful. > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, > Andy Blunden wrote: > I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask "How > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has acquired the > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are > somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" (?) are > meaningful. > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a great > extent before the collaborators meet. > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist > their instantiation in any collaborative act. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > Lynda, > > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the > center > > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. > On the > > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > collaborate, and > > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education > > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > collaborative > > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for > > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes > appear > > not to be good for everyone. > > > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > "collaboration" is > > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which > it must > > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > > classrooms". > > > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks > discussing > > on the listserve. > > > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be > > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > "collaboration" > > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. > > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of > > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different > children. And > > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > > > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative > classrooms" > > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many > problems > > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > > > That's just my two nickels worth. > > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > > -greg > > > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which > I can > > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is > > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my > > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in > which > > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and > therefore > > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the > > consciousness of myself as a social being." > > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Greg! > >> > >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm > dropping in > >> to make > >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >> > >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the > >> conversation > >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist > >> angle, equally > >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to > collaborate---we come > >> with the > >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative > >> process. So, each > >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some > relatively > >> shared > >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so > >> forth, they are engaged > >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part > in an > >> event/activity. And, > >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse > practices > >> and are influenced > >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger > >> culture), to understand > >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an > understanding > >> of the situation > >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > collaboration > >> in educational settings > >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in > contrast to > >> traditional educational > >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental > process, just > >> as infants learn how over > >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >> > >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at > this > >> moment? And, "how > >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other > contextual > >> questions that can > >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be > >> configured. For example, > >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) > >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under > >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is > >> this related to the social > >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what > >> collaboration means and as a > >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children to > >> cooperate (or not) with each other. > >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a > >> positioning process---one that is also > >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in > >> learning activity with others. > >> > >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings > >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has > certainly > >> pushed my thinking-- > >> > >> An appreciative lurker! > >> -lynda > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> What KINDS of > >> > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > configured. > >>> > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional > >>> > >> problem > >> > >>> here: What is collaboration? > >>> > >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be > human is > >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative > all the > >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > classrooms are > >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. > >>> > >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about > >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students > >>> > >> begin > >> > >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that > one must > >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that > matter). > >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as > exceptions to > >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. > And in > >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very > >>> > >> particular > >> > >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is > true > >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >>> > >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows > >>> > >> this > >> > >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this > >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something > different from > >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work > >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. > >>> > >> Some > >> > >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). > >>> > >> But > >> > >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something > >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >>> > >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in > >>> > >> the > >> > >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is > >>> > >> sold > >> > >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > >>> > >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to > pursue the > >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse > >>> > >> about > >> > >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >>> > >> assumptions > >> > >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative > classrooms" > >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't > >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class > >>> > >> clown's > >> > >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring > against the > >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the > >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even > >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this > >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those > times that > >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >>> > >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to > >>> > >> collaborate > >> > >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > configured. > >>> > >>> Collaboration anyone? > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >>>> > >> invitation. I > >> > >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking > >>>> > >> in a > >> > >>>> number of ways. > >>>> > >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best > interest > >>>> > >> to > >> > >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may > >>>> > >> not > >> > >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student > >>>> > >> that > >> > >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such > >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well > >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative > >>>> > >> effort > >> > >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of > >>>> > >> human > >> > >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that > >>>> > >> must > >> > >>>> be weighted. > >>>> > >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if > given > >>>> > >> the > >> > >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would > >>>> > >> surmise > >> > >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" > >>>> > >> students, > >> > >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >>>> > >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have > >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >>>> > >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > standards, and > >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting > >>>> > >> case. > >> > >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of > the group > >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would > >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. > >>>> > >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the > work for > >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >>>> > >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. > >>>> > >>>> d. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > intended > >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). > >>>> > >> Any > >> > >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly > prohibited. > >>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, > >>>>>>> > >> Andy > >> > >>>> Blunden wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and > energy to > >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >>>> > >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense > to say > >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best > >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be > >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of > this > >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed > mechanisms > >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be > damaging > >>>> to them. > >>>> > >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an > >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic > >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is > >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in > >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these > types > >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school > >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the > >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive > >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive > >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of > >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Mar 30 22:18:23 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:18:23 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the black notebooks, David. Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? Or is that too simple? Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? (signed) The blind man with a stick mike On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Martin: > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > Hi David, > > > > Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, > both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was > working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. > For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs > (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was > trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was > unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The > problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > > > > Martin > > > > Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > Routledge and Kegan Paul. > > > > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > wrote: > > > >> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > interest or not. > >> DP > >> > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > >> > >> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > >> > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Mar 30 22:22:11 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:22:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> Message-ID: Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word collaboration, Andy? mike On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Donna, > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories here. > Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are > positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's > cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite enough > for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are formed, through > the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that > self-concept is an important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to > see every collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we > are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of actions by > different individuals, and "different points of view." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has taken >> place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline infecting another - >> both at the group level and at the individual level. I believe that an >> individual can rewrite those storylines or make conscious choices to adopt >> a different version. I'm not fully familiar with this literature but I >> think the theory of mind research and "theory of self" here would be a >> useful. >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >> Wilfrid Laurier University >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > dkotsopoulos> >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended >> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any >> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >> >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, >> Andy Blunden wrote: >> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) >> If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask "How >> is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist >> positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has acquired the >> same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are >> somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" (?) are >> meaningful. >> In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a great >> extent before the collaborators meet. >> Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of >> collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. >> So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist >> their instantiation in any collaborative act. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> > Lynda, >> > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the >> center >> > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that >> > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. On >> the >> > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to collaborate, >> and >> > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education >> > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). >> > >> > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is >> collaborative >> > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a >> > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in >> > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for >> > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes >> appear >> > not to be good for everyone. >> > >> > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which "collaboration" >> is >> > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which it >> must >> > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative >> > classrooms". >> > >> > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks >> discussing >> > on the listserve. >> > >> > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be >> > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of >> "collaboration" >> > and notions of "classroom collaboration". >> > >> > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. >> > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of >> > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different children. >> And >> > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom >> > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! >> > >> > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative >> classrooms" >> > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many >> problems >> > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." >> > >> > That's just my two nickels worth. >> > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). >> > -greg >> > >> > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which I >> can >> > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is >> > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my >> > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in >> which >> > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and >> therefore >> > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the >> > consciousness of myself as a social being." >> > Marx, 1844, p. 298 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > >wrote: >> > >> > >> >> Hi Greg! >> >> >> >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm >> dropping in >> >> to make >> >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. >> >> >> >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the >> >> conversation >> >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist >> >> angle, equally >> >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we >> come >> >> with the >> >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative >> >> process. So, each >> >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some >> relatively >> >> shared >> >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so >> >> forth, they are engaged >> >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part in >> an >> >> event/activity. And, >> >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse >> practices >> >> and are influenced >> >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger >> >> culture), to understand >> >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an >> understanding >> >> of the situation >> >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, >> collaboration >> >> in educational settings >> >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in contrast >> to >> >> traditional educational >> >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, >> just >> >> as infants learn how over >> >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. >> >> >> >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at >> this >> >> moment? And, "how >> >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other >> contextual >> >> questions that can >> >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be >> >> configured. For example, >> >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) >> >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under >> >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is >> >> this related to the social >> >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what >> >> collaboration means and as a >> >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children to >> >> cooperate (or not) with each other. >> >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a >> >> positioning process---one that is also >> >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in >> >> learning activity with others. >> >> >> >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out >> >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings >> >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has >> certainly >> >> pushed my thinking-- >> >> >> >> An appreciative lurker! >> >> -lynda >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What KINDS of >> >> >> >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be >> configured. >> >>> >> >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional >> >>> >> >> problem >> >> >> >>> here: What is collaboration? >> >>> >> >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be >> human is >> >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative all >> the >> >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all classrooms >> are >> >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. >> >>> >> >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about >> >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students >> >>> >> >> begin >> >> >> >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that one >> must >> >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that >> matter). >> >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as >> exceptions to >> >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. And >> in >> >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very >> >>> >> >> particular >> >> >> >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is >> true >> >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). >> >>> >> >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows >> >>> >> >> this >> >> >> >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this >> >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something different >> from >> >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work >> >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. >> >>> >> >> Some >> >> >> >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). >> >>> >> >> But >> >> >> >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something >> >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. >> >>> >> >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in >> >>> >> >> the >> >> >> >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative >> >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is >> >>> >> >> sold >> >> >> >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of >> >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). >> >>> >> >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to pursue >> the >> >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse >> >>> >> >> about >> >> >> >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental >> >>> >> >> assumptions >> >> >> >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative >> classrooms" >> >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't >> >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class >> >>> >> >> clown's >> >> >> >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring against >> the >> >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the >> >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even >> >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this >> >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those times >> that >> >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). >> >>> >> >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to >> >>> >> >> collaborate >> >> >> >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of >> >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be >> configured. >> >>> >> >>> Collaboration anyone? >> >>> -greg >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos >> >>> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this >> >>>> >> >> invitation. I >> >> >> >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking >> >>>> >> >> in a >> >> >> >>>> number of ways. >> >>>> >> >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best >> interest >> >>>> >> >> to >> >> >> >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may >> >>>> >> >> not >> >> >> >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student >> >>>> >> >> that >> >> >> >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such >> >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well >> >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative >> >>>> >> >> effort >> >> >> >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of >> >>>> >> >> human >> >> >> >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that >> >>>> >> >> must >> >> >> >>>> be weighted. >> >>>> >> >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if >> given >> >>>> >> >> the >> >> >> >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would >> >>>> >> >> surmise >> >> >> >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" >> >>>> >> >> students, >> >> >> >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >> >>>> >> >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have >> >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. >> >>>> >> >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her standards, >> and >> >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting >> >>>> >> >> case. >> >> >> >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of the >> group >> >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would >> >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. >> >>>> >> >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the work >> for >> >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >> >>>> >> >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. >> >>>> >> >>>> d. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> >>>> Associate Professor >> >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >> >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University >> >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >> >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >> >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >> intended >> >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as >> recipient(s). >> >>>> >> >> Any >> >> >> >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly >> prohibited. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, >> >>>>>>> >> >> Andy >> >> >> >>>> Blunden wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and energy >> to >> >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense to >> say >> >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best >> >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be >> >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of >> this >> >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >> >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed >> mechanisms >> >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be >> damaging >> >>>> to them. >> >>>> >> >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >> >>>> >> >>>> Andy >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an >> >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic >> >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is >> >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in >> >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these >> types >> >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school >> >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the >> >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive >> >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive >> >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of >> >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >>> Assistant Professor >> >>> Department of Anthropology >> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >>> Brigham Young University >> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Mar 30 22:26:58 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:26:58 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> Message-ID: <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net> Now that you mention it, Mike, I'd say "collusion" is just a way of characterising collaboration in the case of there being something illegitimate about the object of the collaboration. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word > collaboration, > Andy? > mike > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Donna, > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of > theories here. Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study > of how people are positioned by and for collaboration, taken > together with Vygotsky's cultural psychology and the tradition of > acivity theory, seems quite enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an > approach to how concepts are formed, through the collaborative use > of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that self-concept is an > important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to see every > collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we > are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of > actions by different individuals, and "different points of view." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration > has taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one > storyline infecting another - both at the group level and at > the individual level. I believe that an individual can rewrite > those storylines or make conscious choices to adopt a > different version. I'm not fully familiar with this literature > but I think the theory of mind research and "theory of self" > here would be a useful. > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, > is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned > above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying > or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message > <53376899.7060408@mira.net > >, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were > to ask "How > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has > acquired the > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are > somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" > (?) are > meaningful. > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place > to a great > extent before the collaborators meet. > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected > modes of > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the > classroom. > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which > pre-exist > their instantiation in any collaborative act. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > Lynda, > > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is > at the center > > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note > that > > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) > inevitable. On the > > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > collaborate, and > > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional > education > > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > collaborative > > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we > find in > > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of > collaboration for > > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna > describes appear > > not to be good for everyone. > > > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > "collaboration" is > > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in > which it must > > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > > classrooms". > > > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between > folks discussing > > on the listserve. > > > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work > still to be > > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > "collaboration" > > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected > places (e.g. > > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different > configurations of > > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different > children. And > > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > > > So then with this distinction, we might say that > "collaborative classrooms" > > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the > many problems > > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > > > That's just my two nickels worth. > > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > > -greg > > > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an > activity which I can > > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my > activity is > > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the > material of my > > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the > language in which > > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, > and therefore > > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society > and with the > > consciousness of myself as a social being." > > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > >wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Greg! > >> > >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but > I'm dropping in > >> to make > >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >> > >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory > of the > >> conversation > >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded > in a Marxist > >> angle, equally > >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to > collaborate---we come > >> with the > >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally > collaborative > >> process. So, each > >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to > some relatively > >> shared > >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an > identity, and so > >> forth, they are engaged > >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child > taking part in an > >> event/activity. And, > >> because events/activities come into existence through > discourse practices > >> and are influenced > >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to > the larger > >> culture), to understand > >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an > understanding > >> of the situation > >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > collaboration > >> in educational settings > >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement > in contrast to > >> traditional educational > >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a > developmental process, just > >> as infants learn how over > >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >> > >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are > needed at this > >> moment? And, "how > >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many > other contextual > >> questions that can > >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should > collaboration be > >> configured. For example, > >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) > >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under > >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each > other and how is > >> this related to the social > >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context > shapes what > >> collaboration means and as a > >> consequence influences the social processes that enable > children to > >> cooperate (or not) with each other. > >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points > out, is a > >> positioning process---one that is also > >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of > engaging in > >> learning activity with others. > >> > >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings > >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper > has certainly > >> pushed my thinking-- > >> > >> An appreciative lurker! > >> -lynda > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> What KINDS of > >> > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they > be configured. > >>> > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a > definitional > >>> > >> problem > >> > >>> here: What is collaboration? > >>> > >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that > to be human is > >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are > collaborative all the > >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > classrooms are > >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed > researchers think. > >>> > >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much > theorizing about > >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says > that students > >>> > >> begin > >> > >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an > activity that one must > >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else > for that matter). > >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen > as exceptions to > >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the > norm. And in > >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has > a very > >>> > >> particular > >> > >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather > this is true > >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >>> > >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world > that follows > >>> > >> this > >> > >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." > Again, this > >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something > different from > >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have > them work > >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of > interaction. > >>> > >> Some > >> > >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of > Donna's points). > >>> > >> But > >> > >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is > something > >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >>> > >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going > after. And in > >>> > >> the > >> > >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of > "collaborative > >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in > education is > >>> > >> sold > >> > >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak > view of > >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has > done). > >>> > >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction > to pursue the > >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is > this discourse > >>> > >> about > >> > >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >>> > >> assumptions > >> > >>> that serve as the starting point against which > "collaborative classrooms" > >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's > thinking, isn't > >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in > the class > >>> > >> clown's > >> > >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the > conspiring against the > >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another > class or the > >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd > find that even > >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive > collaborations in this > >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during > those times that > >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >>> > >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question > of "to > >>> > >> collaborate > >> > >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What > KINDS of > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they > be configured. > >>> > >>> Collaboration anyone? > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > > > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >>>> > >> invitation. I > >> > >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched > my thinking > >>>> > >> in a > >> > >>>> number of ways. > >>>> > >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their > best interest > >>>> > >> to > >> > >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them > collaborate, may > >>>> > >> not > >> > >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. > That student > >>>> > >> that > >> > >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise > something in such > >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well > >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any > collaborative > >>>> > >> effort > >> > >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very > essence of > >>>> > >> human > >> > >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the > compromise that > >>>> > >> must > >> > >>>> be weighted. > >>>> > >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work > with if given > >>>> > >> the > >> > >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small > group. I would > >>>> > >> surmise > >> > >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have > been "nice" > >>>> > >> students, > >> > >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >>>> > >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She > would have > >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >>>> > >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > standards, and > >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another > interesting > >>>> > >> case. > >> > >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in > regardless of the group > >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. > She would > >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to > her end. > >>>> > >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have > done the work for > >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >>>> > >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of > the context. > >>>> > >>>> d. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > Mathematics > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with > it, is intended > >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). > >>>> > >> Any > >> > >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > strictly prohibited. > >>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message > <53357F22.1070109@mira.net >, > >>>>>>> > >> Andy > >> > >>>> Blunden > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time > and energy to > >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >>>> > >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make > sense to say > >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in > their best > >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this > question must be > >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best > interest of this > >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What > types of > >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the > detailed mechanisms > >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which > may be damaging > >>>> to them. > >>>> > >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human > relationship is an > >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more > realistic > >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in > order. There is > >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is > true in > >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework > for these types > >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions > in a school > >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to > include the > >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to > productive > >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts > as productive > >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical > evaluation of > >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Mon Mar 31 01:50:19 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 04:50:19 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> Message-ID: <5338F40B.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Andy, I think positioning theory and Vygotsky's work may address many of the "how" components of collaboration. The outcomes or the implications, I would suggest need some theoretical extensions to make sense of them in a more fulsome way. I couldn't explain the silencing, for example, without thinking through and proposing a theoretical extension. d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/30/2014 at 11:01 PM, in message <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net>, Andy Blunden wrote: Donna, I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories here. Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, and "different points of view." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has > taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline > infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual > level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or > make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully > familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research > and "theory of self" here would be a useful. > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, > Andy Blunden wrote: > I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask "How > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has acquired the > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are > somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" (?) are > meaningful. > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a great > extent before the collaborators meet. > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which pre-exist > their instantiation in any collaborative act. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > Lynda, > > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the > center > > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) inevitable. > On the > > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > collaborate, and > > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional education > > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > collaborative > > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration for > > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna describes > appear > > not to be good for everyone. > > > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > "collaboration" is > > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which > it must > > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > > classrooms". > > > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks > discussing > > on the listserve. > > > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still to be > > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > "collaboration" > > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. > > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different configurations of > > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different > children. And > > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > > > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative > classrooms" > > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many > problems > > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > > > That's just my two nickels worth. > > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > > -greg > > > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which > I can > > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity is > > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material of my > > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the language in > which > > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and > therefore > > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with the > > consciousness of myself as a social being." > > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Greg! > >> > >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm > dropping in > >> to make > >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >> > >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the > >> conversation > >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded in a Marxist > >> angle, equally > >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to > collaborate---we come > >> with the > >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally collaborative > >> process. So, each > >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to some > relatively > >> shared > >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and so > >> forth, they are engaged > >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child taking part > in an > >> event/activity. And, > >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse > practices > >> and are influenced > >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the larger > >> culture), to understand > >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an > understanding > >> of the situation > >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > collaboration > >> in educational settings > >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in > contrast to > >> traditional educational > >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental > process, just > >> as infants learn how over > >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >> > >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at > this > >> moment? And, "how > >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other > contextual > >> questions that can > >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration be > >> configured. For example, > >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) > >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under > >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is > >> this related to the social > >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context shapes what > >> collaboration means and as a > >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children to > >> cooperate (or not) with each other. > >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a > >> positioning process---one that is also > >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in > >> learning activity with others. > >> > >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings > >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper has > certainly > >> pushed my thinking-- > >> > >> An appreciative lurker! > >> -lynda > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> What KINDS of > >> > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > configured. > >>> > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a definitional > >>> > >> problem > >> > >>> here: What is collaboration? > >>> > >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be > human is > >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative > all the > >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > classrooms are > >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. > >>> > >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing about > >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says that students > >>> > >> begin > >> > >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that > one must > >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that > matter). > >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as > exceptions to > >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. > And in > >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very > >>> > >> particular > >> > >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this is > true > >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >>> > >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that follows > >>> > >> this > >> > >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, this > >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something > different from > >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them work > >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. > >>> > >> Some > >> > >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). > >>> > >> But > >> > >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is something > >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >>> > >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. And in > >>> > >> the > >> > >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in education is > >>> > >> sold > >> > >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > >>> > >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to > pursue the > >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this discourse > >>> > >> about > >> > >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >>> > >> assumptions > >> > >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative > classrooms" > >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, isn't > >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in the class > >>> > >> clown's > >> > >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring > against the > >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or the > >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find that even > >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive collaborations in this > >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during those > times that > >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >>> > >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to > >>> > >> collaborate > >> > >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS of > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > configured. > >>> > >>> Collaboration anyone? > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >>>> > >> invitation. I > >> > >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my thinking > >>>> > >> in a > >> > >>>> number of ways. > >>>> > >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best > interest > >>>> > >> to > >> > >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them collaborate, may > >>>> > >> not > >> > >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That student > >>>> > >> that > >> > >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in such > >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well > >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any collaborative > >>>> > >> effort > >> > >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very essence of > >>>> > >> human > >> > >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise that > >>>> > >> must > >> > >>>> be weighted. > >>>> > >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if > given > >>>> > >> the > >> > >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I would > >>>> > >> surmise > >> > >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" > >>>> > >> students, > >> > >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >>>> > >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would have > >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >>>> > >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > standards, and > >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another interesting > >>>> > >> case. > >> > >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of > the group > >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She would > >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. > >>>> > >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the > work for > >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >>>> > >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. > >>>> > >>>> d. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > intended > >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). > >>>> > >> Any > >> > >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly > prohibited. > >>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, > >>>>>>> > >> Andy > >> > >>>> Blunden wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and > energy to > >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >>>> > >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense > to say > >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their best > >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this question must be > >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best interest of > this > >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed > mechanisms > >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be > damaging > >>>> to them. > >>>> > >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is an > >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more realistic > >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in order. There is > >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is true in > >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for these > types > >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a school > >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to include the > >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to productive > >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts as productive > >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical evaluation of > >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Mon Mar 31 01:51:30 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 04:51:30 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net> Message-ID: <5338F452.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Very interesting substitution! Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 3/31/2014 at 1:26 AM, in message <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net>, Andy Blunden wrote: Now that you mention it, Mike, I'd say "collusion" is just a way of characterising collaboration in the case of there being something illegitimate about the object of the collaboration. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word > collaboration, > Andy? > mike > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Donna, > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of > theories here. Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study > of how people are positioned by and for collaboration, taken > together with Vygotsky's cultural psychology and the tradition of > acivity theory, seems quite enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an > approach to how concepts are formed, through the collaborative use > of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that self-concept is an > important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to see every > collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we > are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of > actions by different individuals, and "different points of view." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration > has taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one > storyline infecting another - both at the group level and at > the individual level. I believe that an individual can rewrite > those storylines or make conscious choices to adopt a > different version. I'm not fully familiar with this literature > but I think the theory of mind research and "theory of self" > here would be a useful. > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, > is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned > above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying > or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message > <53376899.7060408@mira.net > >, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were > to ask "How > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the artist > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has > acquired the > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they are > somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" > (?) are > meaningful. > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place > to a great > extent before the collaborators meet. > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected > modes of > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the > classroom. > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which > pre-exist > their instantiation in any collaborative act. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > Lynda, > > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is > at the center > > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note > that > > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) > inevitable. On the > > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > collaborate, and > > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional > education > > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > collaborative > > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we > find in > > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of > collaboration for > > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna > describes appear > > not to be good for everyone. > > > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > "collaboration" is > > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in > which it must > > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > > classrooms". > > > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between > folks discussing > > on the listserve. > > > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work > still to be > > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > "collaboration" > > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected > places (e.g. > > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different > configurations of > > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different > children. And > > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > > > So then with this distinction, we might say that > "collaborative classrooms" > > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the > many problems > > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > > > That's just my two nickels worth. > > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > > -greg > > > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an > activity which I can > > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my > activity is > > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the > material of my > > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the > language in which > > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, > and therefore > > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society > and with the > > consciousness of myself as a social being." > > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > >wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Greg! > >> > >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but > I'm dropping in > >> to make > >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >> > >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory > of the > >> conversation > >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded > in a Marxist > >> angle, equally > >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to > collaborate---we come > >> with the > >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally > collaborative > >> process. So, each > >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to > some relatively > >> shared > >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an > identity, and so > >> forth, they are engaged > >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child > taking part in an > >> event/activity. And, > >> because events/activities come into existence through > discourse practices > >> and are influenced > >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to > the larger > >> culture), to understand > >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an > understanding > >> of the situation > >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > collaboration > >> in educational settings > >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement > in contrast to > >> traditional educational > >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a > developmental process, just > >> as infants learn how over > >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >> > >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are > needed at this > >> moment? And, "how > >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many > other contextual > >> questions that can > >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should > collaboration be > >> configured. For example, > >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) > >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under > >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each > other and how is > >> this related to the social > >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context > shapes what > >> collaboration means and as a > >> consequence influences the social processes that enable > children to > >> cooperate (or not) with each other. > >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points > out, is a > >> positioning process---one that is also > >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of > engaging in > >> learning activity with others. > >> > >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings > >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper > has certainly > >> pushed my thinking-- > >> > >> An appreciative lurker! > >> -lynda > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> What KINDS of > >> > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they > be configured. > >>> > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a > definitional > >>> > >> problem > >> > >>> here: What is collaboration? > >>> > >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that > to be human is > >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are > collaborative all the > >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > classrooms are > >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed > researchers think. > >>> > >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much > theorizing about > >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says > that students > >>> > >> begin > >> > >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an > activity that one must > >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else > for that matter). > >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen > as exceptions to > >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the > norm. And in > >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has > a very > >>> > >> particular > >> > >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather > this is true > >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >>> > >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world > that follows > >>> > >> this > >> > >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." > Again, this > >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something > different from > >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have > them work > >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of > interaction. > >>> > >> Some > >> > >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of > Donna's points). > >>> > >> But > >> > >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is > something > >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >>> > >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going > after. And in > >>> > >> the > >> > >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of > "collaborative > >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in > education is > >>> > >> sold > >> > >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak > view of > >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has > done). > >>> > >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction > to pursue the > >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is > this discourse > >>> > >> about > >> > >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >>> > >> assumptions > >> > >>> that serve as the starting point against which > "collaborative classrooms" > >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's > thinking, isn't > >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in > the class > >>> > >> clown's > >> > >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the > conspiring against the > >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another > class or the > >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd > find that even > >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive > collaborations in this > >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during > those times that > >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >>> > >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question > of "to > >>> > >> collaborate > >> > >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What > KINDS of > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they > be configured. > >>> > >>> Collaboration anyone? > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > > > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >>>> > >> invitation. I > >> > >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched > my thinking > >>>> > >> in a > >> > >>>> number of ways. > >>>> > >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their > best interest > >>>> > >> to > >> > >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them > collaborate, may > >>>> > >> not > >> > >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. > That student > >>>> > >> that > >> > >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise > something in such > >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual well > >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any > collaborative > >>>> > >> effort > >> > >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very > essence of > >>>> > >> human > >> > >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the > compromise that > >>>> > >> must > >> > >>>> be weighted. > >>>> > >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work > with if given > >>>> > >> the > >> > >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small > group. I would > >>>> > >> surmise > >> > >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have > been "nice" > >>>> > >> students, > >> > >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >>>> > >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She > would have > >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >>>> > >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > standards, and > >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another > interesting > >>>> > >> case. > >> > >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in > regardless of the group > >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. > She would > >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to > her end. > >>>> > >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have > done the work for > >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >>>> > >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of > the context. > >>>> > >>>> d. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > Mathematics > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with > it, is intended > >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > recipient(s). > >>>> > >> Any > >> > >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > strictly prohibited. > >>>> > >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message > <53357F22.1070109@mira.net >, > >>>>>>> > >> Andy > >> > >>>> Blunden > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time > and energy to > >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >>>> > >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make > sense to say > >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in > their best > >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this > question must be > >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best > interest of this > >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What > types of > >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the > detailed mechanisms > >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which > may be damaging > >>>> to them. > >>>> > >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >>>> > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human > relationship is an > >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more > realistic > >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in > order. There is > >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is > true in > >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. > >>>>> > >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework > for these types > >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions > in a school > >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to > include the > >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to > productive > >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts > as productive > >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical > evaluation of > >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Mon Mar 31 02:48:31 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 05:48:31 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com Message-ID: As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. ? By their logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their writings. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com
Martin: I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi David, > > Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, both professional and personal.? However, the conceptual problem he was working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > > Martin > > Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: > >> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >> DP >> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >> >> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >> >> >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 05:05:19 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:05:19 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is not only his writings. It is also his actions, specially his role as rector of Freiburg University and his affiliation to the Nazi Party across the whole span of time of the Nazi regime. I read Heidegger many years ago and didn't capture my imagination as did empirical psychological science so I am not the one to judge whether his philosophy is a nazi one or not. The way it is build stroke me as a very anti-modern enterprise and not necessarily one that would advance diversity, inclusion and multiculturalism, values that are to cherised for me. And the idea of that metaphysical being was too much far away from my training as a social scientist. I tried to connect as a poet with it but then I realized poetry was a very different, less totalizing enterprise. I prefer the linguistic experiments of modern experimental poetry including surrealism than the metaphisycal aspirations of the german philosopher. Additionally, I mistrust totalizing philosophies, and prefer local, situated inquiries. And yet Heidegger's silence after the war about the Holocaust speaks volumes, silence addressed by Paul Celan in his poem Todtnauberg which I recommend. David Enviado desde mi iPhone > El 31-03-2014, a las 6:48, "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" escribi?: > > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their writings. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com
>
Martin: > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >> >> Martin >> >> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: >>> >>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >>> DP >>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>> >>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>> >>> >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 31 05:53:59 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:53:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought the moustache was a dead giveaway. [http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2014/03/31/arts/heidegger/heidegger-articleInline.jpg] -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 8:05 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com It is not only his writings. It is also his actions, specially his role as rector of Freiburg University and his affiliation to the Nazi Party across the whole span of time of the Nazi regime. I read Heidegger many years ago and didn't capture my imagination as did empirical psychological science so I am not the one to judge whether his philosophy is a nazi one or not. The way it is build stroke me as a very anti-modern enterprise and not necessarily one that would advance diversity, inclusion and multiculturalism, values that are to cherised for me. And the idea of that metaphysical being was too much far away from my training as a social scientist. I tried to connect as a poet with it but then I realized poetry was a very different, less totalizing enterprise. I prefer the linguistic experiments of modern experimental poetry including surrealism than the metaphisycal aspirations of the german philosopher. Additionally, I mistrust totalizing philosophies, and prefer local, situated inquiries. And yet Heidegger's silence after the war about the Holocaust speaks volumes, silence addressed by Paul Celan in his poem Todtnauberg which I recommend. David Enviado desde mi iPhone > El 31-03-2014, a las 6:48, "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe" > escribi?: > > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their writings. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg >
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com
>
Martin: > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-foc > us-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he >> was working on was also important to philosophers with very different >> politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between >> Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) >> understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a >> philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from >> becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his >> treatment of time, in my view.) >> >> Martin >> >> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > wrote: >>> >>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >>> DP >>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus >>> -on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>> >>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>> >>> >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12058 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140331/c1598f8d/attachment-0001.jpg From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Mar 31 06:54:42 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:54:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: Martin On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their writings. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com
>
Martin: > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >> >> Martin >> >> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. >> >> >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >>> DP >>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>> >>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>> >>> >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 07:20:49 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 08:20:49 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Audre Lourde's words seem relevant to the Heidegger debate and particularly to the questions that Paul raises: "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. Racism and homophobia are real conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives here. See whose face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate all our choices." Personally, I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit. I tend to feel that a tool is a tool and while some tools are better for doing certain things than others, the tool itself has no destiny in itself. Would anyone argue differently with Heidegger? Are we saying that his whole system was fundamentally antisemitic? and that one cannot take up his thinking without being antisemitic? And similarly, following Paul, can we take up the ideas of any slave holder or slave supporter or otherwise racist individual without taking into us their racism? Interestingly, for me the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be more problematic than the anti-African concern. (and this supports the issue that Paul was raising). -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: > > > > Martin > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > wrote: > > > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to > ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their > logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of > almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their > writings. > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on > Anti-Semitism - > > NYTimes.com
> >
Martin: > > > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Hi David, > >> > >> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, > both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was > working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. > For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs > (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was > trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was > unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The > problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > Routledge and Kegan Paul. > >> > >> > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > wrote: > >> > >>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > interest or not. > >>> DP > >>> > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > >>> > >>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > >>> > >>> > >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 07:46:02 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:46:02 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8351C23B-4001-42C1-8E06-6F919F9960CF@gmail.com> Greg, Why for you "the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be more problematic than the anti-African concern". Could you please clarify? Thanks! David On Mar 31, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Audre Lourde's words seem relevant to the Heidegger debate and particularly > to the questions that Paul raises: > "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may > allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never > enable us to bring about genuine change. Racism and homophobia are real > conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us > here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and > touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives here. See whose > face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate > all our choices." > Personally, I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit. I tend to feel > that a tool is a tool and while some tools are better for doing certain > things than others, the tool itself has no destiny in itself. Would anyone > argue differently with Heidegger? > Are we saying that his whole system was fundamentally antisemitic? and that > one cannot take up his thinking without being antisemitic? > And similarly, following Paul, can we take up the ideas of any slave holder > or slave supporter or otherwise racist individual without taking into us > their racism? > Interestingly, for me the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be > more problematic than the anti-African concern. (and this supports the > issue that Paul was raising). > > -greg > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> wrote: >> >>> As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to >> ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their >> logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of >> almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their >> writings. >>> >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>> >>>
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg < >> dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00) >>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on >> Anti-Semitism - >>> NYTimes.com
>>>
Martin: >>> >>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>> >>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>> >>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>> >>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >> working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. >> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs >> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was >> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The >> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >> interest or not. >>>>> DP >>>>> >> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 07:50:15 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 07:50:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, Your question: Personally, I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit. I tend to feel that a tool is a tool and while some tools are better for doing certain things than others, the tool itself has no destiny in itself. Would anyone argue differently with Heidegger? I am curious about the *back and forth* many times aspect of your engaging with this question. Could tools have a *destiny* of their own? Could tools AS medium [prosthetics] BE the message? Could this destiny go beyond the *choice* to pick up or put down the tool/prosthetic *device* Do we exist *within* or *inside* prosthetic tools or are prosthetic tools external objects which we can pick up or put down intentionally? There is a third way Shotter extends this question TO *texts* as a KIND or TYPE of prosthetic tool. Shotter's unique answer to this question, in his exploration of agential realism, is that all three ASPECTS [not parts] within *felt tendency* are operative in a rapidly fluid stream of awareness/ discernment. Shotter suggests using prosthetics is not a conscious phenomena, but when the action breaks down the prosthetic *device* within which we exist can become conscious and then we become aware of the prosthetic device AS a tool. Do we also exist within *texts* and when the texts break down we can become aware of *texts* as devices and discern the genres within which we exist. Greg is this destiny?? Heidegger's CONCEPT OF *ready to hand* engaged with these questions. In exploring Heidegger's *relevance* might the greatest *value* be to engage with his work hermeneutically AS RESPONSE or ANSWERABILITY. I understand Gadamer as developing his project IN ANSWER TO Heidegger. Positioning theory [or at least certain KINDS or TYPES] can also be understood as answerability or *hearing others into voice* from WITHIN the emerging conversations constrained by social cultural norms [which are being transformed within the engagement] On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Audre Lourde's words seem relevant to the Heidegger debate and particularly > to the questions that Paul raises: > "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may > allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never > enable us to bring about genuine change. Racism and homophobia are real > conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us > here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and > touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives here. See whose > face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate > all our choices." > Personally, I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit. I tend to feel > that a tool is a tool and while some tools are better for doing certain > things than others, the tool itself has no destiny in itself. Would anyone > argue differently with Heidegger? > Are we saying that his whole system was fundamentally antisemitic? and that > one cannot take up his thinking without being antisemitic? > And similarly, following Paul, can we take up the ideas of any slave holder > or slave supporter or otherwise racist individual without taking into us > their racism? > Interestingly, for me the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be > more problematic than the anti-African concern. (and this supports the > issue that Paul was raising). > > -greg > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > wrote: > > > Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> > > wrote: > > > > > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to > > ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their > > logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment > of > > almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in > their > > writings. > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00) > >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on > > Anti-Semitism - > > > NYTimes.com
> > >
Martin: > > > > > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > > > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > > > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > > > > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > > > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > > > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > > > > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > > > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > >> Hi David, > > >> > > >> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, > > both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was > > working on was also important to philosophers with very different > politics. > > For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs > > (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was > > trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence > was > > unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. > (The > > problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> > > >> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > > Routledge and Kegan Paul. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > > interest or not. > > >>> DP > > >>> > > > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > > >>> > > >>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Mon Mar 31 07:54:28 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:54:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nazi-aligned ideology also played out in the world of mathematics during Hitler's rule. Mathematics had been moving strongly toward a formalist orientation since the latter part of the 19th century. A remnant of a more concrete conception of mathematics survived in a school of mathematics known as Intuitionism. Intuitionists rejected the Law of the Excluded Middle. That's the logical principle that permits proof by contradiction. Briefly it states if P is a proposition, then either P is true or ~P (the negation of P) is true. There is no middle ground that permits both or neither to be true. This law enables mathematical proofs of the following form: Supposing we want to prove some proposition P. Let's start out by assuming that ~P is true. Then we explore what else can be logically derived based on that premise. If we find that ~P leads us to a contradiction, any contradiction, then we are entitled to conclude that ~P is false, from which the Law of the Excluded Middle assures us that P must be true. In rejecting this form of reasoning, intuitionist mathematicians insist on a sense of positive proof; one positively establishes some conclusion, rather than merely showing that its negation leads to a contradiction. This mathematical ethic was embraced by some mathematicians during the Third Reich as an Aryan style of mathematics that countered the disembodied and "Jewish" style of mathematics that everywhere was becoming the norm--I'm sure connections to Heidegger's phenomenology can be made here. Through national political influence, these Intuitionists gained control of the German mathematicians' organization DMV and used that platform to purge many leading Jewish mathematicians from their university posts. Unlike the philosophical realm which remains open to diverse foundational framings, the mathematical tide was already set. The regression of German mathematics back to a more romantic and embodied style, by crippling the logical investigation of mathematics, produced no lasting intellectual legacy. For more on this, see: Mehrtens, H. (1993). The social system of mathematics and National Socialism. In S. Restivo, J. P. Van Bendegem, & R. Fisher (Eds.), Math Worlds (219-246). Albany, NY: SUNY Press. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 8:55 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: Martin On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their writings. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com
>
Martin: > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-foc > us-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he >> was working on was also important to philosophers with very different >> politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between >> Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) >> understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a >> philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from >> becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his >> treatment of time, in my view.) >> >> Martin >> >> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. >> >> >> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >>> DP >>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus >>> -on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>> >>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>> >>> >>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >> >> > > From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Mon Mar 31 08:09:09 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:09:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well said, Paul Tom On 31 March 2014 10:48, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban > heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their logic, > people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost > all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their > writings. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00) >
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on > Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com
>
Martin: > > I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > > Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > > It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > Hi David, > > > > Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, > both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was > working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. > For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs > (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was > trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was > unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The > problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > > > > Martin > > > > Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > Routledge and Kegan Paul. > > > > > > On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > wrote: > > > >> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > interest or not. > >> DP > >> > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > >> > >> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > >> > >> > >> Enviado desde mi iPhone > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 08:34:09 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:34:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <8351C23B-4001-42C1-8E06-6F919F9960CF@gmail.com> References: <8351C23B-4001-42C1-8E06-6F919F9960CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: David, yes, my gut-level reaction is precisely the one that Paul was pointing out: if an author is antisemitic, then we take it that his ideas cannot be taken up seriously, but if he is anti-African (I'm taking some liberties), as with most of those in the Western tradition, I'm mostly okay with it. Does that resonate with others? -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 8:46 AM, David Preiss wrote: > Greg, > Why for you "the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be more > problematic than the anti-African concern". Could you please clarify? > Thanks! > David > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Audre Lourde's words seem relevant to the Heidegger debate and > particularly > > to the questions that Paul raises: > > "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may > > allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never > > enable us to bring about genuine change. Racism and homophobia are real > > conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us > > here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and > > touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives here. See > whose > > face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate > > all our choices." > > Personally, I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit. I tend to feel > > that a tool is a tool and while some tools are better for doing certain > > things than others, the tool itself has no destiny in itself. Would > anyone > > argue differently with Heidegger? > > Are we saying that his whole system was fundamentally antisemitic? and > that > > one cannot take up his thinking without being antisemitic? > > And similarly, following Paul, can we take up the ideas of any slave > holder > > or slave supporter or otherwise racist individual without taking into us > > their racism? > > Interestingly, for me the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be > > more problematic than the anti-African concern. (and this supports the > > issue that Paul was raising). > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> wrote: > > > >> Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: > >> > >> > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to > >> ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their > >> logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment > of > >> almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in > their > >> writings. > >>> > >>> > >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > >>> President > >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > >>> www.mocombeian.com > >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com > >>> www.paulcmocombe.info > >>> > >>>
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg < > >> dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00) > >>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on > >> Anti-Semitism - > >>> NYTimes.com
> >>>
Martin: > >>> > >>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > >>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > >>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > >>> > >>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > >>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > >>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > >>> > >>> > >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > >>> > >>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > >>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > >> wrote: > >>>> Hi David, > >>>> > >>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, > >> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was > >> working on was also important to philosophers with very different > politics. > >> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and > Lukacs > >> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was > >> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence > was > >> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. > (The > >> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > >> Routledge and Kegan Paul. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > >> interest or not. > >>>>> DP > >>>>> > >> > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > >>>>> > >>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 08:34:13 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:34:13 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> Hi Mike, I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the end: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html David On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: > Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the black > notebooks, David. > > Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism > t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and its > epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism and > money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? > Or is that too simple? > > Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of a > historical German cultural narrative? > > (signed) > The blind man with a stick > mike > > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Martin: >> >> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >> >> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >> >> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> Hi David, >>> >>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >> working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. >> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs >> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was >> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The >> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >> wrote: >>> >>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >> interest or not. >>>> DP >>>> >> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>> >>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>> >>>> >>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>> >>> >> >> From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 08:52:46 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:52:46 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <8351C23B-4001-42C1-8E06-6F919F9960CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <842C895F-652F-45B5-B198-647B8F21390F@gmail.com> Well, that's the opposite of what I have said so far. If we use those standards there is nothing we can really read with peace of mind, starting with the all the classic religious texts. That said, we can judge people actions in its own merit. Enviado desde mi iPhone > El 31-03-2014, a las 12:34, Greg Thompson escribi?: > > David, > yes, my gut-level reaction is precisely the one that Paul was pointing out: > if an author is antisemitic, then we take it that his ideas cannot be taken > up seriously, but if he is anti-African (I'm taking some liberties), as > with most of those in the Western tradition, I'm mostly okay with it. > Does that resonate with others? > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 8:46 AM, David Preiss wrote: > >> Greg, >> Why for you "the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be more >> problematic than the anti-African concern". Could you please clarify? >> Thanks! >> David >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> Audre Lourde's words seem relevant to the Heidegger debate and >> particularly >>> to the questions that Paul raises: >>> "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. They may >>> allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never >>> enable us to bring about genuine change. Racism and homophobia are real >>> conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us >>> here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and >>> touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives here. See >> whose >>> face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate >>> all our choices." >>> Personally, I've gone back and forth on this quite a bit. I tend to feel >>> that a tool is a tool and while some tools are better for doing certain >>> things than others, the tool itself has no destiny in itself. Would >> anyone >>> argue differently with Heidegger? >>> Are we saying that his whole system was fundamentally antisemitic? and >> that >>> one cannot take up his thinking without being antisemitic? >>> And similarly, following Paul, can we take up the ideas of any slave >> holder >>> or slave supporter or otherwise racist individual without taking into us >>> their racism? >>> Interestingly, for me the antisemitism concern with Heidegger seems to be >>> more problematic than the anti-African concern. (and this supports the >>> issue that Paul was raising). >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:54 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to >>>> ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their >>>> logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment >> of >>>> almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in >> their >>>> writings. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>>> President >>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>>> >>>>>
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg < >>>> dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00) >>>>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on >>>> Anti-Semitism - >>>>> NYTimes.com
>>>>>
Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>>>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>>>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>>>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>>>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >>>> working on was also important to philosophers with very different >> politics. >>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >> Lukacs >>>> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >>>> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence >> was >>>> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. >> (The >>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>> interest or not. >>>>>>> DP >> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Mar 31 09:22:12 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:22:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BC27F18-D723-4846-A2D5-5BBB922FBDA0@uniandes.edu.co> In case the link doesn't work: "In German Idealism and the Jew, Michael Mack uncovers the deep roots of anti-Semitism in the German philosophical tradition. While many have read German anti-Semitism as a reaction against Enlightenment philosophy, Mack instead contends that the redefinition of the Jews as irrational, oriental Others forms the very cornerstone of German idealism, including Kant's conception of universal reason. Offering the first analytical account of the connection between anti-Semitism and philosophy, Mack begins his exploration by showing how the fundamental thinkers in the German idealist tradition?Kant, Hegel, and, through them, Feuerbach and Wagner?argued that the human world should perform and enact the promises held out by a conception of an otherworldly heaven. But their respective philosophies all ran aground on the belief that the worldly proved incapable of transforming itself into this otherworldly ideal. To reconcile this incommensurability, Mack argues, philosophers created a construction of Jews as symbolic of the "worldliness" that hindered the development of a body politic and that served as a foil to Kantian autonomy and rationality. In the second part, Mack examines how Moses Mendelssohn, Heinrich Heine, Franz Rosenzweig, and Freud, among others, grappled with being both German and Jewish. Each thinker accepted the philosophies of Kant and Hegel, in varying degrees, while simultaneously critiquing anti-Semitism in order to develop the modern Jewish notion of what it meant to be enlightened?a concept that differed substantially from that of Kant, Hegel, Feuerbach, and Wagner. By speaking the unspoken in German philosophy, this book profoundly reshapes our understanding of it." On Mar 31, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Yes, the problem runs deeper than Heidegger: > > > > Martin > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 4:48 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > >> As an african/haitian, I am baffled when contemporary scholars want to ban heidegger from philosophy for his so-called antisemitism. By their logic, people of African descent should be clamoring for the banishment of almost all scholars since descartes who showed any sign of racism in their writings. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: David Kellogg
Date:03/30/2014 10:47 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - >> NYTimes.com
>>
Martin: >> >> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >> >> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >> >> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer wrote: >>> Hi David, >>> >>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss wrote: >>> >>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of interest or not. >>>> DP >>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>> >>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>> >>>> >>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>> >>> >> >> > > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Mar 31 09:52:10 2014 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:52:10 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> Joris's translation is available at http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you will realise.) Rob On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: > Hi Mike, > I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. > > What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. > > Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the end: > http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html > > David > > > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the black >> notebooks, David. >> >> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism >> t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and its >> epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism and >> money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >> Or is that too simple? >> >> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of a >> historical German cultural narrative? >> >> (signed) >> The blind man with a stick >> mike >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Martin: >>> >>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>> >>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>> >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>> >>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>> wrote: >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >>> working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. >>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs >>> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >>> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was >>> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The >>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>> wrote: >>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>> interest or not. >>>>> DP >>>>> >>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>> >>> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 10:17:05 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:17:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two countries in the same way? For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. mike On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > Joris's translation is available at http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 > > and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to provide > the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you will realise.) > > Rob > > > On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of >> Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the >> philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to >> elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi >> worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt >> that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other >> philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite >> naturalized. >> >> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center >> stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he >> did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and >> after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his >> moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of >> his writings. >> >> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the >> end: >> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the >>> black >>> notebooks, David. >>> >>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism >>> t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and >>> its >>> epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism >>> and >>> money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>> Or is that too simple? >>> >>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of >>> a >>> historical German cultural narrative? >>> >>> (signed) >>> The blind man with a stick >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>> Martin: >>>> >>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>> >>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi David, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >>>>> >>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >>>> working on was also important to philosophers with very different >>>> politics. >>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>> Lukacs >>>> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >>>> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence >>>> was >>>> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. >>>> (The >>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>> >>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>> >>>>> interest or not. >>>> >>>>> DP >>>>>> >>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>> >>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 10:20:29 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:20:29 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20CC91DD-E2A2-4670-97B5-8FAEA52EC1E4@gmail.com> This is great, Rob. Many thanks! David On Mar 31, 2014, at 1:52 PM, rjsp2 wrote: > Joris's translation is available at http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 > > and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to provide > the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you will realise.) > > Rob > > On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> Hi Mike, >> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >> >> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >> >> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the end: >> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the black >>> notebooks, David. >>> >>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism >>> t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and its >>> epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism and >>> money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>> Or is that too simple? >>> >>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of a >>> historical German cultural narrative? >>> >>> (signed) >>> The blind man with a stick >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>>> Martin: >>>> >>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>> >>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi David, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >>>> working on was also important to philosophers with very different politics. >>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and Lukacs >>>> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >>>> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence was >>>> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. (The >>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>> wrote: >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>> interest or not. >>>>>> DP >>>>>> >>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>> >>>> >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 10:37:12 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:37:12 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com> That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense than > any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence of German > philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often been discussed > on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two countries in the same > way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the wikipedia > entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a novel by an > anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist film. I liked the > novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to provide >> the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of >>> Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the >>> philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to >>> elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi >>> worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt >>> that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other >>> philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite >>> naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center >>> stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he >>> did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and >>> after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his >>> moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of >>> his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism >>>> t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and >>>> its >>>> epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism >>>> and >>>> money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of >>>> a >>>> historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>>>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>>>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>>>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>>>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >>>>> working on was also important to philosophers with very different >>>>> politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs >>>>> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >>>>> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence >>>>> was >>>>> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an >> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC >> 038302). >> >> From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 31 10:58:01 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:58:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <2430f58c2cef432fac91869945cf2d6c@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Interesting, then, that many Jews had a great interest in overthrowing the fiercely anti-semitic Romanovs, only to find Stalin using them as scapegoats of convenience after the revolution(s). -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:17 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two countries in the same way? For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. mike On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > Joris's translation is available at > http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 > > and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to > provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you > will realise.) > > Rob > > > On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >> >> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according >> to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust >> (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the black >> notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible with the >> sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >> >> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >> the >> end: >> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >> the >>> black >>> notebooks, David. >>> >>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>> Or is that too simple? >>> >>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>> >>> (signed) >>> The blind man with a stick >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Martin: >>>> >>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>> >>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi David, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>> politics, >>>>> >>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he >>>> was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>> different politics. >>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>> (The >>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>> >>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>> >>>>> interest or not. >>>> >>>>> DP >>>>>> >>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>> >>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), > an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in > Scotland (SC 038302). > > From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 31 10:59:27 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:59:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > countries in the same way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>> the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>> the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>> politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>> different politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Mar 31 11:31:32 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:31:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com>, <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history? Why? I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > countries in the same way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>> the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>> the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>> politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>> different politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Mon Mar 31 11:46:23 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:46:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com Message-ID: Well said michael! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:03/31/2014 2:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com
I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest.? Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial.? On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time.? One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight).? Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way.? To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human.? He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook.? This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. Paul's point really resonated with me.? We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father.? And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews.? Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes?? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history?? Why?? I can also see the other side I guess.? I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better.? He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads).? Was he just a person looking to maintain his position.? But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. Complex problems I suppose.? But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism -????? NYTimes.com I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > countries in the same way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan? which I just edited to >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>> the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>> the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>> politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal.? However, the conceptual problem >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>> different politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 11:46:57 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:46:57 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <5338F452.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net> <5338F452.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: Its not clear to me that the sub-group, itself, is colluding in excluding Mitchell's work. Rather, it seems to me that the sub-group are conforming to a motive that places a priority on literally obeying the teacher rather than exploring the subject matter itself, which may be more of a class/school phenomenon of collusion: to guarantee approval one must do as one is told. Actions that go beyond this (Mitchell's cube) do not serve this activity, hence Mitchell appears to be addressing a different motive. An interesting point, for me, is the tensions between the desirability for a creative orientation to each subject and its obstruction by following an instruction to the letter. It seems to me that students' desire to conform inhibits their more profound orientation to the subject matter. I think this "obedience anxiety" may be perfectly justified when the students do not know how to be creative in this way, which also places a different emphasis on valuation of students' contributions. Best, Huw On 31 March 2014 09:51, Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > Very interesting substitution! > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended > for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any > unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>> On 3/31/2014 at 1:26 AM, in message <5338FCA2.4020200@mira.net>, Andy > Blunden wrote: > > Now that you mention it, Mike, I'd say "collusion" is just a way of > characterising collaboration in the case of there being something > illegitimate about the object of the collaboration. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > > Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word > > collaboration, > > Andy? > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > Donna, > > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of > > theories here. Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study > > of how people are positioned by and for collaboration, taken > > together with Vygotsky's cultural psychology and the tradition of > > acivity theory, seems quite enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an > > approach to how concepts are formed, through the collaborative use > > of tools and symbols, and it seems to me, that self-concept is an > > important limiting case of concept formation. I tend to see every > > collabortion as the active instantiation of a concept of "what we > > are doing together," which necessarily includes a diversity of > > actions by different individuals, and "different points of view." > > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > > > The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration > > has taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one > > storyline infecting another - both at the group level and at > > the individual level. I believe that an individual can rewrite > > those storylines or make conscious choices to adopt a > > different version. I'm not fully familiar with this literature > > but I think the theory of mind research and "theory of self" > > here would be a useful. > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > > Mathematics > > Wilfrid Laurier University > > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > > > > > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, > > is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned > > above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying > > or other use is strictly prohibited. > > >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message > > <53376899.7060408@mira.net > > >, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > > If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were > > to ask "How > > is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the > artist > > positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has > > acquired the > > same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, that they > are > > somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these "roles" > > (?) are > > meaningful. > > In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place > > to a great > > extent before the collaborators meet. > > Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected > > modes of > > collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the > > classroom. > > So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which > > pre-exist > > their instantiation in any collaborative act. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > > Lynda, > > > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is > > at the center > > > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note > > that > > > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) > > inevitable. On the > > > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > > collaborate, and > > > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional > > education > > > (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > > > > > > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > > collaborative > > > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in > a > > > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we > > find in > > > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of > > collaboration for > > > everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna > > describes appear > > > not to be good for everyone. > > > > > > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > > "collaboration" is > > > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in > > which it must > > > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - > "collaborative > > > classrooms". > > > > > > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between > > folks discussing > > > on the listserve. > > > > > > And it seems to me like there is some really important work > > still to be > > > done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > > "collaboration" > > > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > > > > > > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected > > places (e.g. > > > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different > > configurations of > > > "collaboration" can be differently productive for different > > children. And > > > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > > > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > > > > > > So then with this distinction, we might say that > > "collaborative classrooms" > > > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the > > many problems > > > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > > > > > > That's just my two nickels worth. > > > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > > > -greg > > > > > > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an > > activity which I can > > > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my > > activity is > > > social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the > > material of my > > > activity given to me as a social product (as is even the > > language in which > > > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, > > and therefore > > > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society > > and with the > > > consciousness of myself as a social being." > > > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Hi Greg! > > >> > > >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but > > I'm dropping in > > >> to make > > >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > > >> > > >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory > > of the > > >> conversation > > >> around collaboration. Although his reason may be grounded > > in a Marxist > > >> angle, equally > > >> important is a biological one. We are hard wired to > > collaborate---we come > > >> with the > > >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally > > collaborative > > >> process. So, each > > >> and every time peers, teachers and students, etc. come to > > some relatively > > >> shared > > >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an > > identity, and so > > >> forth, they are engaged > > >> in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than one person/child > > taking part in an > > >> event/activity. And, > > >> because events/activities come into existence through > > discourse practices > > >> and are influenced > > >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to > > the larger > > >> culture), to understand > > >> collaboration from participants' point of view requires an > > understanding > > >> of the situation > > >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > > collaboration > > >> in educational settings > > >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement > > in contrast to > > >> traditional educational > > >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a > > developmental process, just > > >> as infants learn how over > > >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > > >> > > >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are > > needed at this > > >> moment? And, "how > > >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many > > other contextual > > >> questions that can > > >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should > > collaboration be > > >> configured. For example, > > >> how do children come to value (or see as morally right) > > >> helping/coordinating behaviors? Under > > >> what circumstances to children collaborate (help) each > > other and how is > > >> this related to the social > > >> norms and expectations? I have found that the context > > shapes what > > >> collaboration means and as a > > >> consequence influences the social processes that enable > > children to > > >> cooperate (or not) with each other. > > >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points > > out, is a > > >> positioning process---one that is also > > >> influenced by the meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of > > engaging in > > >> learning activity with others. > > >> > > >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > > >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings > > >> on the topic contributes a bit. In any case, Donna's paper > > has certainly > > >> pushed my thinking-- > > >> > > >> An appreciative lurker! > > >> -lynda > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> What KINDS of > > >> > > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they > > be configured. > > >>> > > >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a > > definitional > > >>> > > >> problem > > >> > > >>> here: What is collaboration? > > >>> > > >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that > > to be human is > > >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are > > collaborative all the > > >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > > classrooms are > > >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed > > researchers think. > > >>> > > >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much > > theorizing about > > >>> education. Ed researchers start at square one that says > > that students > > >>> > > >> begin > > >> > > >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an > > activity that one must > > >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else > > for that matter). > > >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen > > as exceptions to > > >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the > > norm. And in > > >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has > > a very > > >>> > > >> particular > > >> > > >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather > > this is true > > >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > > >>> > > >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world > > that follows > > >>> > > >> this > > >> > > >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." > > Again, this > > >>> involves an active and conscious decision to do something > > different from > > >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have > > them work > > >>> together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of > > interaction. > > >>> > > >> Some > > >> > > >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of > > Donna's points). > > >>> > > >> But > > >> > > >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is > > something > > >>> unnatural that one must "make" happen. > > >>> > > >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going > > after. And in > > >>> > > >> the > > >> > > >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of > > "collaborative > > >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in > > education is > > >>> > > >> sold > > >> > > >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak > > view of > > >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has > > done). > > >>> > > >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction > > to pursue the > > >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is > > this discourse > > >>> > > >> about > > >> > > >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the > fundamental > > >>> > > >> assumptions > > >> > > >>> that serve as the starting point against which > > "collaborative classrooms" > > >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's > > thinking, isn't > > >>> collaboration always already there in the classroom - in > > the class > > >>> > > >> clown's > > >> > > >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the > > conspiring against the > > >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another > > class or the > > >>> principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd > > find that even > > >>> Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive > > collaborations in this > > >>> classroom! It's just that they won't be happening during > > those times that > > >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > > >>> > > >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question > > of "to > > >>> > > >> collaborate > > >> > > >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What > > KINDS of > > >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they > > be configured. > > >>> > > >>> Collaboration anyone? > > >>> -greg > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > > > > > >>> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > > >>>> > > >> invitation. I > > >> > > >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched > > my thinking > > >>>> > > >> in a > > >> > > >>>> number of ways. > > >>>> > > >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their > > best interest > > >>>> > > >> to > > >> > > >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them > > collaborate, may > > >>>> > > >> not > > >> > > >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. > > That student > > >>>> > > >> that > > >> > > >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise > > something in such > > >>>> instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual > well > > >>>> being/advancement, for example. That being said, any > > collaborative > > >>>> > > >> effort > > >> > > >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very > > essence of > > >>>> > > >> human > > >> > > >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the > > compromise that > > >>>> > > >> must > > >> > > >>>> be weighted. > > >>>> > > >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work > > with if given > > >>>> > > >> the > > >> > > >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small > > group. I would > > >>>> > > >> surmise > > >> > > >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have > > been "nice" > > >>>> > > >> students, > > >> > > >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > > >>>> > > >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She > > would have > > >>>> compromised her intellectual outcomes. > > >>>> > > >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > > standards, and > > >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another > > interesting > > >>>> > > >> case. > > >> > > >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in > > regardless of the group > > >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. > > She would > > >>>> compromise social relationships to achieve her means to > > her end. > > >>>> > > >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have > > done the work for > > >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > > >>>> > > >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of > > the context. > > >>>> > > >>>> d. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > > >>>> Associate Professor > > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > > Mathematics > > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > > > > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with > > it, is intended > > >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > > recipient(s). > > >>>> > > >> Any > > >> > > >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > > strictly prohibited. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message > > <53357F22.1070109@mira.net >, > > >>>>>>> > > >> Andy > > >> > > >>>> Blunden > > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time > > and energy to > > >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > > >>>> > > >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make > > sense to say > > >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in > > their best > > >>>> interests", for the more appropriate posing of this > > question must be > > >>>> *what type of collaboration* is or is not in the best > > interest of this > > >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What > > types of > > >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the > > detailed mechanisms > > >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which > > may be damaging > > >>>> to them. > > >>>> > > >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > > >>>> > > >>>> Andy > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human > > relationship is an > > >>>>> instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more > > realistic > > >>>>> expectations of school based collaborations are in > > order. There is > > >>>>> compromise with every human relationship and the same is > > true in > > >>>>> collaborative activities with children and schools. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework > > for these types > > >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions > > in a school > > >>>>> setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to > > include the > > >>>>> possibility of compromise, an open lens attending to > > productive > > >>>>> silencing and what I had referred to in earlier drafts > > as productive > > >>>>> privileging (Will's case in the article), a critical > > evaluation of > > >>>>> learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>> Assistant Professor > > >>> Department of Anthropology > > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>> Brigham Young University > > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Mar 31 12:14:19 2014 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:14:19 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5339BE8B.5060805@open.ac.uk> Michael said: "But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats." So very true - it has such resonance with the production of an inudstrial bureaucratic method of disposing of a race. The banality of evil. Rob On 31/03/2014 19:46, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Well said michael! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:03/31/2014 2:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism > - NYTimes.com
>
I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. > > Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history? Why? > > I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. > > Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com > > I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com > > That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. >> In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense >> than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence >> of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often >> been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two >> countries in the same way? >> >> For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the >> wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a >> novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist >> film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> >>> Joris's translation is available at >>> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >>> >>> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >>> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >>> will realise.) >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>>> >>>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>>> >>>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>>> the >>>> end: >>>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>>> the >>>>> black >>>>> notebooks, David. >>>>> >>>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>>> Or is that too simple? >>>>> >>>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>>> >>>>> (signed) >>>>> The blind man with a stick >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Martin: >>>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>>> politics, >>>>>>> >>>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>>> different politics. >>>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>>> (The >>>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> interest or not. >>>>>>> DP >>>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>>> >>>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >>> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >>> Scotland (SC 038302). >>> >>> > > > > > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 31 12:23:41 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:23:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com>, <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: And let's not forget those slave-owning Founding Fathers. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history? Why? I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > countries in the same way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>> the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>> the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>> politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>> different politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> From smago@uga.edu Mon Mar 31 12:26:09 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:26:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <5339BE8B.5060805@open.ac.uk> References: <5339BE8B.5060805@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Apologies for my hit-and-run approach to posting this week....anyhow, if you're interested in the banality of evil, I've collected a lot of teaching resources (for English teachers) at http://smago.coe.uga.edu/VirtualLibrary/Unit_Outlines.htm#BanalityofEvil -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of rjsp2 Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com Michael said: "But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats." So very true - it has such resonance with the production of an inudstrial bureaucratic method of disposing of a race. The banality of evil. Rob On 31/03/2014 19:46, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Well said michael! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:03/31/2014 2:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism > - NYTimes.com
>
I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. > > Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history? Why? > > I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. > > Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky > [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com > > I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on > Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com > > That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, > the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then > extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional > account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague > Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism > crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were > reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be > understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic > are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night > of the murdered poets > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. >> In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense >> than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence >> of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has >> often been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the >> two countries in the same way? >> >> For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the >> wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a >> novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist >> film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> >>> Joris's translation is available at >>> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >>> >>> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >>> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >>> will realise.) >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of >>>> view of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many >>>> people in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a >>>> scholarly activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has >>>> substantive connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why >>>> is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering >>>> to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as >>>> the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>>> >>>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>>> >>>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>>> the >>>> end: >>>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>>> the >>>>> black >>>>> notebooks, David. >>>>> >>>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>>> Or is that too simple? >>>>> >>>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>>> >>>>> (signed) >>>>> The blind man with a stick >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Martin: >>>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but >>>>>> what I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but >>>>>> precisely the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>>> >>>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. >>>>>> They are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>>> politics, >>>>>>> >>>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>>> different politics. >>>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger >>>>>> and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand >>>>>> what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a >>>>>> philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from >>>>>> becoming a very unpleasant human being. >>>>>> (The >>>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> interest or not. >>>>>>> DP >>>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>>> >>>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >>> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >>> Scotland (SC 038302). >>> >>> > > > > > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Mon Mar 31 13:05:32 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:05:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com Message-ID: As we We say in kreyol peter...ayibobo (amen in haitian vodou) to that! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Peter Smagorinsky Date:03/31/2014 3:23 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com And let's not forget those slave-owning Founding Fathers. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+smago=uga.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial.? On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time.? One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight).? Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way.? To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human.? He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook.? This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. Paul's point really resonated with me.? We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father.? And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews.? Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes?? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history?? Why?? I can also see the other side I guess.? I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better.? He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads).? Was he just a person looking to maintain his position.? But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. Complex problems I suppose.? But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism -????? NYTimes.com I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > countries in the same way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan? which I just edited to >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>> the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>> the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>> politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal.? However, the conceptual problem >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>> different politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Mon Mar 31 13:09:00 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:09:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's symbolic interactionism with? vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 13:21:41 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:21:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com> <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, you wrote: "the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats" Very Arendt-ian Micheal! As in Arendt's "banality of evil". I thought you might appreciate Richard Shweder's flipping of Arendt's phrase to "the evil of banality". He writes "Courage (and other high motives) are in short supply these days. Perhaps they always were, still there remains a "demonic profundity" to the absence of heroism in the contemporary world. It is a devilish world when mundane (and hence popular) motives can lead human beings so astray." And his advice to students (this was part of Aims of Education Address to incoming University of Chicago students): "Do not forget to remind those of us with too great a stake in mundane things that there is "evil in banality" and in bureaucratic motivations. Keep us alert. Engage the issues of the day." Here is the full talk (point three is where he speaks of Arendt): http://aims.uchicago.edu/page/1993-richard-shweder Here to hoping that we might keep each other alert to the evil of banality! -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last > week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie > back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her > observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am > watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. > One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when > considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never > enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). > Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a > professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To > maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not > bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake > of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in > the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to > bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, > professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps > with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the > powerful. > > Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as > if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he > was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive > to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. > Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been > whitewashed by history? Why? > > I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding > Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when > considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to > maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person > must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because > in many ways there is nothing else. > > Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not > when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple > bureaucrats. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com > > I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler > and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this > process. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - > NYTimes.com > > That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the > antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used > by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin > of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the > novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural > threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the > Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of > Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called > doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the > so-called night of the murdered poets ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > > countries in the same way? > > > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > > > >> Joris's translation is available at > >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 > >> > >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to > >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you > >> will realise.) > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> > >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Mike, > >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view > >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people > >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly > >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive > >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is > >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to > >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the > >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. > >>> > >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of > >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes > >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged > >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the > >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the > >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible > >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. > >>> > >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until > >>> the > >>> end: > >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html > >>> > >>> David > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of > >>> the > >>>> black > >>>> notebooks, David. > >>>> > >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and > >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin > >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" > >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the > >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? > >>>> Or is that too simple? > >>>> > >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent > >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? > >>>> > >>>> (signed) > >>>> The blind man with a stick > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Martin: > >>>>> > >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely > >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > >>>>> > >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" > >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon > >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- > >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > >>>>> > >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They > >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > >>>>> > >>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>>> > >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi David, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling > >>>>>> politics, > >>>>>> > >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem > >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very > >>>>> different politics. > >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and > >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what > >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher > >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a > >>>>> very unpleasant human being. > >>>>> (The > >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > >>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > >>>>>> > >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> interest or not. > >>>>> > >>>>>> DP > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- > >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > >>>>> > >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), > >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in > >> Scotland (SC 038302). > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkirsh@lsu.edu Mon Mar 31 14:38:43 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:38:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com>, <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <7ddd8ba9f44e43ea8c6d2d44dfe1bcf2@BN1PR06MB008.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Michael, >From the links that have been provided in the current discussion thread, I've gleaned there's substantial evidence that Heidegger's embrace of anti-Semitism was deeply linked to his philosophical ideas--not the accommodations to circumstance of a "weak" personality. In the case of mathematics, the strand of scholarship embraced by those aligned with the Third Reich was regressive and sterile (see my previous post). That seems not to be the case with Heidegger's phenomenology. Should we throw out Heidegger's work because we don't like his politics? I think not. But we can and should strive to understand any limitations to that work that are revealed through its compatibility to an ideology of dehumanization and brutalization--same with Oliver Wendell Holmes. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+dkirsh=lsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:32 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history? Why? I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night of the murdered poets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two > countries in the same way? > > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: > >> Joris's translation is available at >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> will realise.) >> >> Rob >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>> the >>> end: >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>> >>> David >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>> the >>>> black >>>> notebooks, David. >>>> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>> Or is that too simple? >>>> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>> >>>> (signed) >>>> The blind man with a stick >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>> politics, >>>>>> >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>> different politics. >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >>>>> (The >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>> >>>>>> interest or not. >>>>> >>>>>> DP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Mon Mar 31 14:48:35 2014 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:48:35 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <5339BE8B.5060805@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5339E2B3.1030406@open.ac.uk> Excellent selection of novels. Rob On 31/03/2014 20:26, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Apologies for my hit-and-run approach to posting this week....anyhow, if you're interested in the banality of evil, I've collected a lot of teaching resources (for English teachers) at http://smago.coe.uga.edu/VirtualLibrary/Unit_Outlines.htm#BanalityofEvil > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of rjsp2 > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:14 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com > > Michael said: "But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats." > > So very true - it has such resonance with the production of an inudstrial bureaucratic method of disposing of a race. The banality of evil. > > Rob > > On 31/03/2014 19:46, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: >> Well said michael! >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:03/31/2014 2:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism >> - NYTimes.com
>>
I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the powerful. >> >> Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been whitewashed by history? Why? >> >> I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because in many ways there is nothing else. >> >> Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple bureaucrats. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky >> [smago@uga.edu] >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com >> >> I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this process. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on >> Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com >> >> That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, >> the antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then >> extensively used by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional >> account of the origin of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague >> Cemetery. If anything, the novel shows that XXth century antisemitism >> crystallises many cultural threads and that many influences were >> reciprocal. Afterwards, during the Soviet era, antisemitism should be >> understood as a part of the mechanics of Stalinism. Specially iconic >> are the events associated to the so-called doctor's plot >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the so-called night >> of the murdered poets >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. >>> In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense >>> than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence >>> of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has >>> often been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the >>> two countries in the same way? >>> >>> For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the >>> wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a >>> novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist >>> film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >>> >>>> Joris's translation is available at >>>> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >>>> >>>> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >>>> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >>>> will realise.) >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> >>>> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of >>>>> view of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many >>>>> people in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a >>>>> scholarly activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has >>>>> substantive connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why >>>>> is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering >>>>> to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as >>>>> the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >>>>> >>>>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >>>>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >>>>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >>>>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >>>>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >>>>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >>>>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >>>>> >>>>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >>>>> the >>>>> end: >>>>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >>>>> the >>>>>> black >>>>>> notebooks, David. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >>>>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >>>>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >>>>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >>>>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>>>>> Or is that too simple? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >>>>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >>>>>> >>>>>> (signed) >>>>>> The blind man with a stick >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin: >>>>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but >>>>>>> what I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but >>>>>>> precisely the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >>>>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >>>>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >>>>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. >>>>>>> They are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi David, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >>>>>>>> politics, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >>>>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >>>>>>> different politics. >>>>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger >>>>>>> and Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand >>>>>>> what Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a >>>>>>> philosopher of human existence was unable to prevent himself from >>>>>>> becoming a very unpleasant human being. >>>>>>> (The >>>>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>>>>>> interest or not. >>>>>>>> DP >>>>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >>>>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >>>> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >>>> Scotland (SC 038302). >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 14:54:07 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 06:54:07 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> <53399D3A.2050308@open.ac.uk> <248AFE21-ADC7-4FE3-9BB0-A36ECAE2D3EC@gmail.com> <40da1be23bb74067876a7a47d32fa237@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16AF3F@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: I think that Paul's comment (on the equivalence of white racist writings and anti-semitic ones) is highly a propos, but perhaps not the way he thinks it is. As we can see from the very length and richness of this thread, no one is proposing a ban on Heidegger's work. What we are discussing, as I understand it, is how that work should be read--the preliminary answer is "with extreme difficulty"--and if it is worth the effort at all. Adorno warned us! He thought Heidegger's philosophy was based on an ideology rather similar to the recent remake of "Noah" that is now in your local cinema (that is, cities are very very bad places full of very very bad people and they should probably all be wiped out and replaced by an alliance of well-spaced subistence farmers and nomadic professors of philosophy). So too with what white racists have to say about their own racism. For the most part, it seems to me about as rewarding as phlogiston theory or Ptolemaic models of the solar system. They are all interesting demonstrations of the lengths of silliness to be found in the shallows of a self-convinced mind and they have literally nothing to tell us about the world we live in. A couple of years ago, Andy wrote about why Marx did not join the French atheists in their hortatory critiques of religion; Andy did not mention, but he certainly could have, that there was far more truth in a devoutly religious man like John Brown than in the whole of the atheistic and supposedly materialistic oeuvre of Spencer, Gobineau, Galton, etc. When the nineteenth century "materialists" began to apply Darwinism to humans, just about everything they came up with was proto-Nazi drivel, in many ways diametrically opposite to the eventual conclusions of materialist science (so, for example, "miscegenation" turns out to be a very positive force in eugenics, and the whole concept of race really has no biological foundation at all). Last night I re-read Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem" and I was surprised to find how much is journalism and how little is philosophy. On the one hand, Arendt really does want to make the case that evil is banal--not in its effects, to be sure, but in its triteness, commoness and superficiality. Like Kant, Arendt believes that only good is genuinely deep and rich, and evil is simply the normal state of human blitheness about thinking. So just as Bateson argues that the reason why my office requires effort to remain tidy and seems to get untidy all by itself is simply that there are many more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy, there are many more ways of being evil than there are of being morally good. That is simply the obvious consequence of living in proximity to large numbers of other people (which is, contrary to what Heidegger believes, a positive good). On the other hand, there is a real contradiction n her own thinking that she hides from in the mountains of detail she had to glean from the English translation of the trial transcripts in order to fill the pages of the New Yorker. Judith Butler has remarked that according to Arendt, Eichmann's main crime is a refusal to think. If Arendt is right, it would appear that human decency is a luxury to be enjoyed exclusively by professors of philosophy. But Margarete von Trotta, who made the film that Peter alludes to, remarks that this conclusion doesn't seem to have served her very well in her relations with Heidegger. Arendt seems to have concluded that since he could hardly be said to be a banal non-thinker, he must not really be evil. So Arendt underestimated the number of ways one can be evil after all. What seems more likely is the more obvious--even banal--conclusion: Eichmann's crime--and Heidegger's too--was made possible by a refusal to feel. Emotion is not a sufficient condition for higher ethical concepts, but it is certainly a necessary one; that's why, on the question of white racism, the "scientific" apologists for white racism lie a-mouldering in the grave, but John Brown's truth keeps marching on. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 1 April 2014 05:21, Greg Thompson wrote: > Michael, you wrote: > "the danger is not when philosophers might become monsters, but when > professors become simple bureaucrats" > > Very Arendt-ian Micheal! As in Arendt's "banality of evil". > > I thought you might appreciate Richard Shweder's flipping of Arendt's > phrase to "the evil of banality". He writes "Courage (and other high > motives) are in short supply these days. Perhaps they always were, still > there remains a "demonic profundity" to the absence of heroism in the > contemporary world. It is a devilish world when mundane (and hence popular) > motives can lead human beings so astray." > > And his advice to students (this was part of Aims of Education Address to > incoming University of Chicago students): "Do not forget to remind those of > us with too great a stake in mundane things that there is "evil in > banality" and in bureaucratic motivations. Keep us alert. Engage the issues > of the day." > > Here is the full talk (point three is where he speaks of Arendt): > http://aims.uchicago.edu/page/1993-richard-shweder > > Here to hoping that we might keep each other alert to the evil of banality! > -greg > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > >> I have been following the discussion on Heidegger with interest. Last >> week I was teaching on Hannah Arrendt's ideas of education, trying to tie >> back her unique views both to her relationship with Heidegger and to her >> observations at the Eichman trial. On a student's recommendation I am >> watching the move "Hannah Arrendt" which is very good if you have the time. >> One of the ideas it brings up is that perhaps we have it wrong when >> considering Heidegger some kind of personal monster (and I have never >> enjoyed Heidegger as a philosopher so I have no dog in this fight). >> Perhaps instead Heidegger was a very weak man who loved his position as a >> professor and rector and did not want to jeopardize it in any way. To >> maintain his position he had to see Jews as less than human. He could not >> bear to think of himself as a person who would destroy others for the sake >> of his career so he rationalized his hatred with some of the ideas found in >> the black notebook. This is not to excuse Heidegger in any way, but to >> bring him closer to the everyday life we lead - do we know people, >> professors who would engage in the same type of rationalization, perhaps >> with a socially safer topic, but also destructive to the victims of the >> powerful. >> >> Paul's point really resonated with me. We treat Oliver Wendell Holmes as >> if he was some grand jurist, just a step below founding father. And yet he >> was an extreme eugenicist, and I believe some of his views were destructive >> to African Americans and other populations as Heidegger's were to the Jews. >> Are we allowed to even denounce Holmes? Have his personal opinions been >> whitewashed by history? Why? >> >> I can also see the other side I guess. I know the debates surrounding >> Paul de Mann a bit better. He was a Nazi collaborator (I know, ironic when >> considering other current threads). Was he just a person looking to >> maintain his position. But then Satre's arguments ring true - each person >> must be held responsible for his own choices from moment to moment because >> in many ways there is nothing else. >> >> Complex problems I suppose. But back to the beginning, the danger is not >> when philosophers might become monsters, but when professors become simple >> bureaucrats. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:59 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - >> NYTimes.com >> >> I can't recommend too highly Snyder's Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler >> and Stalin, for a spectacularly detailed and compelling account of this >> process. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:37 PM >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - >> NYTimes.com >> >> That's an interesting question. The protocols of the elders of Zion, the >> antisemitic libel, was first published in Russia and then extensively used >> by Hitler. Umberto Eco writes a fantastic fictional account of the origin >> of the Protocols in his last novel, The Prague Cemetery. If anything, the >> novel shows that XXth century antisemitism crystallises many cultural >> threads and that many influences were reciprocal. Afterwards, during the >> Soviet era, antisemitism should be understood as a part of the mechanics of >> Stalinism. Specially iconic are the events associated to the so-called >> doctor's plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot) and the >> so-called night of the murdered poets ( >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets) >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:17 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > What a tortured and tangled history with both Kant and Hegel in it. >> > In my personal experience, anti-semitism in Russia was more intense >> > than any I had previously encountered in the U.S. Does the influence >> > of German philosophy and psychology on Russian thought which has often >> > been discussed on xlchc/xmca link up with anti-semitism in the two >> > countries in the same way? >> > >> > For those who were mystified by my reference to *Jew Suss* the >> > wikipedia entry provides relevant background. The story begins with a >> > novel by an anti-fascist writer which is then inverted in a fascist >> > film. I liked the novel at the time I read it many decades ago. >> > >> > mike >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:52 AM, rjsp2 wrote: >> > >> >> Joris's translation is available at >> >> http://www.pierrejoris.com/blog/?p=317 >> >> >> >> and there is more at the Wikipedia page on Celan: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Celan which I just edited to >> >> provide the right link to Joris's blog. (This is work avoidance, you >> >> will realise.) >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> >> >> On 31/03/2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Mike, >> >>> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view >> >>> of Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people >> >>> in the philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly >> >>> activity is to elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive >> >>> connections with a Nazi worldview. I can understand why is >> >>> interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt that the masses adhering to >> >>> nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other philosophers as the >> >>> nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite naturalized. >> >>> >> >>> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >> >>> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes >> >>> center stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged >> >>> according to what he did, what he publicly said as regards the >> >>> Holocaust (before, during and after). And we don't need to read the >> >>> black notebooks to learn that his moral stature is not compatible >> >>> with the sensitivity he shows in some of his writings. >> >>> >> >>> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until >> >>> the >> >>> end: >> >>> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >> >>> >> >>> David >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of >> >>> the >> >>>> black >> >>>> notebooks, David. >> >>>> >> >>>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and >> >>>> anti-semitism t, according to this account, to run through the sin >> >>>> of rationalism and its epitome in mathematics as "calculation" >> >>>> presumably linking rationalism and money lending, and hence the >> >>>> historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >> >>>> Or is that too simple? >> >>>> >> >>>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent >> >>>> invasion of a historical German cultural narrative? >> >>>> >> >>>> (signed) >> >>>> The blind man with a stick >> >>>> mike >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >> >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Martin: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >> >>>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely >> >>>>> the problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" >> >>>>> people, and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon >> >>>>> peoples who are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers- >> >>>>> notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They >> >>>>> are only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> David Kellogg >> >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >> >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Hi David, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling >> >>>>>> politics, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem >> >>>>> he was working on was also important to philosophers with very >> >>>>> different politics. >> >>>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >> >>>>> Lukacs (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what >> >>>>> Heidegger was trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher >> >>>>> of human existence was unable to prevent himself from becoming a >> >>>>> very unpleasant human being. >> >>>>> (The >> >>>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Martin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> interest or not. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> DP >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks- >> >>>>> renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), >> >> an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in >> >> Scotland (SC 038302). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Mar 31 15:18:39 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:18:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Fwd=3A_Inscripciones_abiertas_Maestr=EDa_y_Doctor?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ado_en_Psicolog=EDa_-_Universidad_de_los_Andes?= References: Message-ID: <4B3C4778-0EB1-4589-A7B8-64CBABEA3156@uniandes.edu.co> Applicants welcome from all parts of this crazy world! Martin Begin forwarded message: From: Linea Uniandes > Subject: Inscripciones abiertas Maestr?a y Doctorado en Psicolog?a - Universidad de los Andes Date: March 31, 2014 at 2:28:32 PM GMT-5 http://faciso.uniandes.edu.co/index.php/programa/posgrado S?ganos en: [facebook] [Twitter] [cid:image002.jpg@01CF4CDF.7B4A0420] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 8576 bytes Desc: image003.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140331/09f80ec2/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 8618 bytes Desc: image004.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140331/09f80ec2/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 125068 bytes Desc: image002.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140331/09f80ec2/attachment-0002.jpg From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Mar 31 15:30:09 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:30:09 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Inscripciones_abiertas_Maestr=EDa_y_Doctorado_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?en_Psicolog=EDa_-_Universidad_de_los_Andes?= In-Reply-To: <4B3C4778-0EB1-4589-A7B8-64CBABEA3156@uniandes.edu.co> References: <4B3C4778-0EB1-4589-A7B8-64CBABEA3156@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Try that again... [cid:278E1532-2933-4AFC-B20E-450A7A3D9E1D] On Mar 31, 2014, at 5:18 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: Applicants welcome from all parts of this crazy world! Martin Begin forwarded message: From: Linea Uniandes > Subject: Inscripciones abiertas Maestr?a y Doctorado en Psicolog?a - Universidad de los Andes Date: March 31, 2014 at 2:28:32 PM GMT-5 http://faciso.uniandes.edu.co/index.php/programa/posgrado S?ganos en: [facebook] [Twitter] [cid:image002.jpg@01CF4CDF.7B4A0420] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpg Size: 133795 bytes Desc: image003.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140331/b9d4a59b/attachment.jpg From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Mar 31 15:34:35 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:34:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Inscripciones_abiertas_Maestr=EDa_y_Doctorado_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?en_Psicolog=EDa_-_Universidad_de_los_Andes?= In-Reply-To: References: <4B3C4778-0EB1-4589-A7B8-64CBABEA3156@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <52E61B0F-F569-41E6-87B6-8751CDE8DEBE@uniandes.edu.co> dog ate my attachment! On Mar 31, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Try that again... > > [cid:278E1532-2933-4AFC-B20E-450A7A3D9E1D] > On Mar 31, 2014, at 5:18 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > Applicants welcome from all parts of this crazy world! > > Martin > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Linea Uniandes > > Subject: Inscripciones abiertas Maestr?a y Doctorado en Psicolog?a - Universidad de los Andes > Date: March 31, 2014 at 2:28:32 PM GMT-5 > > http://faciso.uniandes.edu.co/index.php/programa/posgrado > > > S?ganos en: [facebook] [Twitter] > > > > [cid:image002.jpg@01CF4CDF.7B4A0420] > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 16:53:34 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 16:53:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky". I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. mike On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > symbolic interactionism with > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Mon Mar 31 18:25:42 2014 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:25:42 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> Message-ID: <001801cf4d49$4d07c560$e7175020$@shizuoka.ac.jp> This conversation is going too fast for me, and besides, I think it has shifted anyway, but... I want to grab (position) a comment that connects to much we talk about here: the roots of collusion and collaboration. However slimy and sneaky it has been passed down to us, the root of collusion is still from Cum (with) and ludus (play, fun) while collaboration is from cum (with) and labor (work). We set up a polar dialectics to make us the "protagonists" while the others are "antagonists" (words from drama!). We have to make distinctions because that is what minds, brains in bodies do. If we want to develop a concept we can get our teeth into, we have to say what it is like and what it isn't like, to begin with. Think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer as colluding while the Party was collaborating. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:22 PM To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word collaboration, Andy? mike On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Donna, > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories here. > Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are > positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's > cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite > enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are > formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it > seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of > concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active > instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which > necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, and "different points of view." > > Andy > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has >> taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline >> infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual >> level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or >> make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully >> familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research >> and "theory of self" here would be a useful. >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >> Wilfrid Laurier University >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > dkotsopoulos> >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >> intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as >> recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >> >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, >> Andy Blunden wrote: >> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) >> If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask >> "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the >> artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has >> acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, >> that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these >> "roles" (?) are meaningful. >> In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a >> great extent before the collaborators meet. >> Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of >> collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. >> So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which >> pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. >> Andy >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> > Lynda, >> > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the >> center >> > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that >> > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) >> > inevitable. On >> the >> > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to >> > collaborate, >> and >> > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional >> > education (which is, by implication, not collaborative). >> > >> > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is >> collaborative >> > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a >> > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in >> > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration >> > for everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna >> > describes >> appear >> > not to be good for everyone. >> > >> > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which "collaboration" >> is >> > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which >> > it >> must >> > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative >> > classrooms". >> > >> > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks >> discussing >> > on the listserve. >> > >> > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still >> > to be done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of >> "collaboration" >> > and notions of "classroom collaboration". >> > >> > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places (e.g. >> > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different >> > configurations of "collaboration" can be differently productive for different children. >> And >> > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom >> > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! >> > >> > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative >> classrooms" >> > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many >> problems >> > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." >> > >> > That's just my two nickels worth. >> > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). >> > -greg >> > >> > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which >> > I >> can >> > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity >> > is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material >> > of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the >> > language in >> which >> > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and >> therefore >> > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with >> > the consciousness of myself as a social being." >> > Marx, 1844, p. 298 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda >> >> >wrote: >> > >> > >> >> Hi Greg! >> >> >> >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm >> dropping in >> >> to make >> >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. >> >> >> >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the >> >> conversation around collaboration. Although his reason may be >> >> grounded in a Marxist angle, equally important is a biological >> >> one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we >> come >> >> with the >> >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally >> >> collaborative process. So, each and every time peers, teachers >> >> and students, etc. come to some >> relatively >> >> shared >> >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and >> >> so forth, they are engaged in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than >> >> one person/child taking part in >> an >> >> event/activity. And, >> >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse >> practices >> >> and are influenced >> >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the >> >> larger culture), to understand collaboration from participants' >> >> point of view requires an >> understanding >> >> of the situation >> >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, >> collaboration >> >> in educational settings >> >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in >> >> contrast >> to >> >> traditional educational >> >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, >> just >> >> as infants learn how over >> >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. >> >> >> >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at >> this >> >> moment? And, "how >> >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other >> contextual >> >> questions that can >> >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration >> >> be configured. For example, how do children come to value (or see >> >> as morally right) helping/coordinating behaviors? Under what >> >> circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is >> >> this related to the social norms and expectations? I have found >> >> that the context shapes what collaboration means and as a >> >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children >> >> to cooperate (or not) with each other. >> >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a >> >> positioning process---one that is also influenced by the >> >> meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in learning >> >> activity with others. >> >> >> >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out >> >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings on the topic contributes a >> >> bit. In any case, Donna's paper has >> certainly >> >> pushed my thinking-- >> >> >> >> An appreciative lurker! >> >> -lynda >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> What KINDS of >> >> >> >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be >> configured. >> >>> >> >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a >> >>> definitional >> >>> >> >> problem >> >> >> >>> here: What is collaboration? >> >>> >> >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be >> human is >> >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative >> >>> all >> the >> >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all >> >>> classrooms >> are >> >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers think. >> >>> >> >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing >> >>> about education. Ed researchers start at square one that says >> >>> that students >> >>> >> >> begin >> >> >> >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that >> >>> one >> must >> >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that >> matter). >> >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as >> exceptions to >> >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. >> >>> And >> in >> >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very >> >>> >> >> particular >> >> >> >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this >> >>> is >> true >> >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). >> >>> >> >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that >> >>> follows >> >>> >> >> this >> >> >> >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, >> >>> this involves an active and conscious decision to do something >> >>> different >> from >> >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them >> >>> work together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of interaction. >> >>> >> >> Some >> >> >> >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's points). >> >>> >> >> But >> >> >> >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is >> >>> something unnatural that one must "make" happen. >> >>> >> >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. >> >>> And in >> >>> >> >> the >> >> >> >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative >> >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in >> >>> education is >> >>> >> >> sold >> >> >> >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of >> >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). >> >>> >> >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to >> >>> pursue >> the >> >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this >> >>> discourse >> >>> >> >> about >> >> >> >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental >> >>> >> >> assumptions >> >> >> >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative >> classrooms" >> >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, >> >>> isn't collaboration always already there in the classroom - in >> >>> the class >> >>> >> >> clown's >> >> >> >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring >> >>> against >> the >> >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or >> >>> the principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find >> >>> that even Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive >> >>> collaborations in this classroom! It's just that they won't be >> >>> happening during those times >> that >> >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). >> >>> >> >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to >> >>> >> >> collaborate >> >> >> >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS >> >>> of collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be >> configured. >> >>> >> >>> Collaboration anyone? >> >>> -greg >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos >> >>> >> >>> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this >> >>>> >> >> invitation. I >> >> >> >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my >> >>>> thinking >> >>>> >> >> in a >> >> >> >>>> number of ways. >> >>>> >> >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best >> interest >> >>>> >> >> to >> >> >> >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them >> >>>> collaborate, may >> >>>> >> >> not >> >> >> >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That >> >>>> student >> >>>> >> >> that >> >> >> >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in >> >>>> such instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual >> >>>> well being/advancement, for example. That being said, any >> >>>> collaborative >> >>>> >> >> effort >> >> >> >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very >> >>>> essence of >> >>>> >> >> human >> >> >> >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise >> >>>> that >> >>>> >> >> must >> >> >> >>>> be weighted. >> >>>> >> >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if >> given >> >>>> >> >> the >> >> >> >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I >> >>>> would >> >>>> >> >> surmise >> >> >> >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" >> >>>> >> >> students, >> >> >> >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >> >>>> >> >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would >> >>>> have compromised her intellectual outcomes. >> >>>> >> >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her >> >>>> standards, >> and >> >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another >> >>>> interesting >> >>>> >> >> case. >> >> >> >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of >> >>>> the >> group >> >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She >> >>>> would compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her end. >> >>>> >> >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the >> >>>> work >> for >> >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >> >>>> >> >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the context. >> >>>> >> >>>> d. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> >>>> Associate Professor >> >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of >> >>>> Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University >> >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >> intended >> >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as >> recipient(s). >> >>>> >> >> Any >> >> >> >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly >> prohibited. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message >> >>>>>>> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, >> >>>>>>> >> >> Andy >> >> >> >>>> Blunden wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and >> >>>> energy >> to >> >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense >> >>>> to >> say >> >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their >> >>>> best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this >> >>>> question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in >> >>>> the best interest of >> this >> >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >> >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed >> mechanisms >> >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be >> damaging >> >>>> to them. >> >>>> >> >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >> >>>> >> >>>> Andy >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >> >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is >> >>>>> an instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more >> >>>>> realistic expectations of school based collaborations are in >> >>>>> order. There is compromise with every human relationship and >> >>>>> the same is true in collaborative activities with children and schools. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for >> >>>>> these >> types >> >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a >> >>>>> school setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to >> >>>>> include the possibility of compromise, an open lens attending >> >>>>> to productive silencing and what I had referred to in earlier >> >>>>> drafts as productive privileging (Will's case in the article), >> >>>>> a critical evaluation of learning and the kinds of learning that has taken place. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> >>> Assistant Professor >> >>> Department of Anthropology >> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> >>> Brigham Young University >> >>> Provo, UT 84602 >> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 19:30:58 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:30:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: Paul Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko in his most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko has also written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism with her reading of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical mediations. On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > symbolic interactionism with > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Mon Mar 31 19:57:26 2014 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:57:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: My recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on Vygotsky and friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic interactionism and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they articulate and contrast with other traditions, including some specific comparisons with LSV. The book is downloadable at http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Purss Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Paul > Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko > in his > most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko has also > written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism with her reading > of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical mediations. > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 20:14:15 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:14:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: Chuck-- So how does culture figure into Mead's ideas? mike On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > My recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on Vygotsky and > friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic interactionism > and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they articulate and > contrast with other traditions, including some specific comparisons with > LSV. The book is downloadable at > http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Purss > Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Paul > > Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko > > in his > > most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko has also > > written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism with her > reading > > of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical > mediations. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Mon Mar 31 20:30:48 2014 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:30:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: Not so much culture as society, through interaction and coming to understand oneself as a communicative being. As far as I know he has no explicit discussion about tools or other definitions of culture (but others more widely read in Mead might correct this). Nonetheless, he understands the culturally available and inherited language as a tool for interacting with others (and thus entering into the world of socially shared symbols) and then as a symbol for reflection and understanding oneself and one's relation to others. Thus we are formed and form ourselves as social creatures (or we might also say as actors in a encultured society). But of course the last few sentences are my own reconstruction. This is what I wrote in a less off-the-cuff way: "Mead?s recognition of the role of language processes in the formation of the socialized self and the mind, however, clearly sets him apart from the Scottish Moralists or Marx, and puts him nearer to Vygotsky. Mead sees the mind formed in learning to make meaning with and for others, as one sees the effects of communications on others. For both Mead and Vygotsky, though in slightly different ways, self and mind are products of language use in society. For Vygotsky and Mead, speech is a form of act, not a disembodied meaning or truth, but always formulated in action, as part of action, and therefore acting in the world. Thus the meanings we develop in interaction and the thoughts we ponder are saturated with the shades of prior action and the anticipations of new actions. The formulas of unconsidered, unproblematic, habitual utterances are part of those activities we think we know so well that we don?t have to think about or contemplate?all we need to do is produce the prefab ricated words that carry out the old solution (though we may well find ourselves wrong, or we might do better if we stopped to think afresh). Thoughtful speech?the words that make us think or that we feel we need to think about before we speak?is a creative action prompted by a perceived unresolved problem to which we are responding (Blasi, 1998, p. 167; Mead, 1934). " Hope this helps. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: mike cole Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 8:16 pm Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Chuck-- So how does culture figure into Mead's ideas? > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Charles Bazerman < > bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > > > My recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on > Vygotsky and > > friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic interactionism > > and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they articulate and > > contrast with other traditions, including some specific comparisons > with > > LSV. The book is downloadable at > > http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ > > Chuck > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Larry Purss > > Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > > Paul > > > Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko > > > in his > > > most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko has also > > > written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism with her > > reading > > > of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical > > mediations. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > mead's > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 20:53:50 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:53:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Mon Mar 31 21:17:49 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 15:17:49 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: <533A3DED.8090909@mira.net> Greg, Mead did actually read the Phenomenology and explicitly claimed that his I/Me concept was based on the Phenomenology. Vygotsky did not read Hegel (only Lenin, Marx, Engels and those of his contemporaries who did read Hegel). However, my reading of Mead is that he never grasped the significance of mediation in communication and subjectivity, despite the name - "symbolic interationism" - given to the school he spawned. I think, as Chuck said, he saw using words as a creative act and seems not to have reflected on the implications of the fact that the symbol pre-exists the action of using it. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >> Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to >> Vygotsky". >> >> I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand >> where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. >> >> mike >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> >> >>> I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's >>> symbolic interactionism with >>> vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>> >>> Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >>> www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >>> > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 21:43:16 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:43:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: <001801cf4d49$4d07c560$e7175020$@shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> <001801cf4d49$4d07c560$e7175020$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: With respect to collusion. I was thinking of McDermott and Tylbor (below). See reference to collusion in the attached paper. mike ----------------- Necessity of Collusion (McDermott and Tylbor, 1995) *Posted* on 2008.08.29 at 11:09 *Tags:* collusion , discourse, mcdermott , tylbor Collusion is based on the premise of "indefiniteness and precision". Individuals have a repertoire of unspecified knowledge in order to understand each other. Additionally, individuals also utilise their knowledge of local context in order to shape the previous unspecified knowledge into "mutually perceptible and reflexively consequential chunks" (1995:200). Collusion is also influenced by the institutional constraints that affect the ways in which we collude with each other. Take for instance, the generalised gender configurations available in a culture or the "specific institutions built around informational entanglements." (1995:221) 3 ways of appreciating language 1. Propositional vs. illocutionary analysis talk. Literal talk is important whereas the latter will attempt to extrapolate the "actual conditions of the social actors so that their intentions could protrude without anyone having very literally put them into words" (224) 2. Collusional approach is interested in "ongoing social scenes into which people walk and talk their lives together" (224). Notes: Collusion and power would therefore be useful in an analysis of power within a given context, specifically classroom setting. What is said or what is not said in a given classroom can be useful in understanding how activity structures are carried out. Role play for instance has the potential of being 'silly' but it is unsaid, and participants take part in it, with the agreement that it is indeed silly and a one-off thing. People as a general rule of thumb, do not actively 'play' a role, it is not overtly stated, in fact hidden or accepted as a norm. Students were well aware of the fact that this is an exception, not the norm, a suspension of 'real' classroom activities or the Hawthorne effect can possibly explain the situation. What does this mean for the educational structure? Participants relish the ability to act out of the norm, does this mean the effect is a one-off scenario? Or is agency discovered and varied methods of learning emphasised? Is the subject still subjected to assessment despite being able to learn effectively? Or the knowledge that content is flexible and ever-changing? How have practices change beyond that of this implementation? IRE - Initiation, Response, Evaluation also took place. Push backs - moving the mantle of responsibility to the students. On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 6:25 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > This conversation is going too fast for me, and besides, I think it has > shifted anyway, but... I want to grab (position) a comment that connects > to > much we talk about here: the roots of collusion and collaboration. > However > slimy and sneaky it has been passed down to us, the root of collusion is > still from Cum (with) and ludus (play, fun) while collaboration is from cum > (with) and labor (work). We set up a polar dialectics to make us the > "protagonists" while the others are "antagonists" (words from drama!). We > have to make distinctions because that is what minds, brains in bodies do. > If we want to develop a concept we can get our teeth into, we have to say > what it is like and what it isn't like, to begin with. Think of Dietrich > Bonhoeffer as colluding while the Party was collaborating. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:22 PM > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > > Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word > collaboration, Andy? > mike > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Donna, > > I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories > here. > > Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are > > positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's > > cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite > > enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are > > formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it > > seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of > > concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active > > instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which > > necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, and > "different points of view." > > > > Andy > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > > > >> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has > >> taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline > >> infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual > >> level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or > >> make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully > >> familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research > >> and "theory of self" here would be a useful. > >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >> Associate Professor > >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > >> Wilfrid Laurier University > >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >> dkotsopoulos> > >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > >> intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > >> recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > strictly prohibited. > >> >>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, > >> Andy Blunden wrote: > >> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > >> If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask > >> "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the > >> artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has > >> acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, > >> that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these > >> "roles" (?) are meaningful. > >> In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a > >> great extent before the collaborators meet. > >> Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of > >> collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. > >> So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which > >> pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. > >> Andy > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> --- > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Greg Thompson wrote: > >> > Lynda, > >> > Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the > >> center > >> > of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > >> > collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) > >> > inevitable. On > >> the > >> > other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > >> > collaborate, > >> and > >> > collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional > >> > education (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > >> > > >> > I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > >> collaborative > >> > - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > >> > "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > >> > traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration > >> > for everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna > >> > describes > >> appear > >> > not to be good for everyone. > >> > > >> > Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > "collaboration" > >> is > >> > everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which > >> > it > >> must > >> > be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > >> > classrooms". > >> > > >> > That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks > >> discussing > >> > on the listserve. > >> > > >> > And it seems to me like there is some really important work still > >> > to be done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > >> "collaboration" > >> > and notions of "classroom collaboration". > >> > > >> > For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places > (e.g. > >> > "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different > >> > configurations of "collaboration" can be differently productive for > different children. > >> And > >> > also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > >> > collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > >> > > >> > So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative > >> classrooms" > >> > might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many > >> problems > >> > that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > >> > > >> > That's just my two nickels worth. > >> > (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > >> > -greg > >> > > >> > "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which > >> > I > >> can > >> > seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity > >> > is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material > >> > of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the > >> > language in > >> which > >> > the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and > >> therefore > >> > that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with > >> > the consciousness of myself as a social being." > >> > Marx, 1844, p. 298 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > >> > >> >wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> >> Hi Greg! > >> >> > >> >> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm > >> dropping in > >> >> to make > >> >> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >> >> > >> >> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the > >> >> conversation around collaboration. Although his reason may be > >> >> grounded in a Marxist angle, equally important is a biological > >> >> one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we > >> come > >> >> with the > >> >> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally > >> >> collaborative process. So, each and every time peers, teachers > >> >> and students, etc. come to some > >> relatively > >> >> shared > >> >> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and > >> >> so forth, they are engaged in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than > >> >> one person/child taking part in > >> an > >> >> event/activity. And, > >> >> because events/activities come into existence through discourse > >> practices > >> >> and are influenced > >> >> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the > >> >> larger culture), to understand collaboration from participants' > >> >> point of view requires an > >> understanding > >> >> of the situation > >> >> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > >> collaboration > >> >> in educational settings > >> >> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in > >> >> contrast > >> to > >> >> traditional educational > >> >> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, > >> just > >> >> as infants learn how over > >> >> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >> >> > >> >> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at > >> this > >> >> moment? And, "how > >> >> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other > >> contextual > >> >> questions that can > >> >> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration > >> >> be configured. For example, how do children come to value (or see > >> >> as morally right) helping/coordinating behaviors? Under what > >> >> circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is > >> >> this related to the social norms and expectations? I have found > >> >> that the context shapes what collaboration means and as a > >> >> consequence influences the social processes that enable children > >> >> to cooperate (or not) with each other. > >> >> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a > >> >> positioning process---one that is also influenced by the > >> >> meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in learning > >> >> activity with others. > >> >> > >> >> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >> >> "collaboration"---I hope my musings on the topic contributes a > >> >> bit. In any case, Donna's paper has > >> certainly > >> >> pushed my thinking-- > >> >> > >> >> An appreciative lurker! > >> >> -lynda > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> What KINDS of > >> >> > >> >>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > >> configured. > >> >>> > >> >> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a > >> >>> definitional > >> >>> > >> >> problem > >> >> > >> >>> here: What is collaboration? > >> >>> > >> >>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be > >> human is > >> >>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative > >> >>> all > >> the > >> >>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > >> >>> classrooms > >> are > >> >>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers > think. > >> >>> > >> >>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing > >> >>> about education. Ed researchers start at square one that says > >> >>> that students > >> >>> > >> >> begin > >> >> > >> >>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that > >> >>> one > >> must > >> >>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that > >> matter). > >> >>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as > >> exceptions to > >> >>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. > >> >>> And > >> in > >> >>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very > >> >>> > >> >> particular > >> >> > >> >>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this > >> >>> is > >> true > >> >>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >> >>> > >> >>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that > >> >>> follows > >> >>> > >> >> this > >> >> > >> >>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, > >> >>> this involves an active and conscious decision to do something > >> >>> different > >> from > >> >>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them > >> >>> work together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of > interaction. > >> >>> > >> >> Some > >> >> > >> >>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's > points). > >> >>> > >> >> But > >> >> > >> >>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is > >> >>> something unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >> >>> > >> >>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. > >> >>> And in > >> >>> > >> >> the > >> >> > >> >>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > >> >>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in > >> >>> education is > >> >>> > >> >> sold > >> >> > >> >>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > >> >>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > >> >>> > >> >>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to > >> >>> pursue > >> the > >> >>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this > >> >>> discourse > >> >>> > >> >> about > >> >> > >> >>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >> >>> > >> >> assumptions > >> >> > >> >>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative > >> classrooms" > >> >>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, > >> >>> isn't collaboration always already there in the classroom - in > >> >>> the class > >> >>> > >> >> clown's > >> >> > >> >>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring > >> >>> against > >> the > >> >>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or > >> >>> the principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find > >> >>> that even Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive > >> >>> collaborations in this classroom! It's just that they won't be > >> >>> happening during those times > >> that > >> >>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >> >>> > >> >>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to > >> >>> > >> >> collaborate > >> >> > >> >>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS > >> >>> of collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > >> configured. > >> >>> > >> >>> Collaboration anyone? > >> >>> -greg > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >> >>>> > >> >> invitation. I > >> >> > >> >>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my > >> >>>> thinking > >> >>>> > >> >> in a > >> >> > >> >>>> number of ways. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best > >> interest > >> >>>> > >> >> to > >> >> > >> >>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them > >> >>>> collaborate, may > >> >>>> > >> >> not > >> >> > >> >>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That > >> >>>> student > >> >>>> > >> >> that > >> >> > >> >>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in > >> >>>> such instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual > >> >>>> well being/advancement, for example. That being said, any > >> >>>> collaborative > >> >>>> > >> >> effort > >> >> > >> >>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very > >> >>>> essence of > >> >>>> > >> >> human > >> >> > >> >>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise > >> >>>> that > >> >>>> > >> >> must > >> >> > >> >>>> be weighted. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if > >> given > >> >>>> > >> >> the > >> >> > >> >>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I > >> >>>> would > >> >>>> > >> >> surmise > >> >> > >> >>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" > >> >>>> > >> >> students, > >> >> > >> >>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would > >> >>>> have compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > >> >>>> standards, > >> and > >> >>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another > >> >>>> interesting > >> >>>> > >> >> case. > >> >> > >> >>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of > >> >>>> the > >> group > >> >>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She > >> >>>> would compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her > end. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the > >> >>>> work > >> for > >> >>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the > context. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> d. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >> >>>> Associate Professor > >> >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > >> >>>> Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University > >> >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >> >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >> >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > >> intended > >> >>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > >> recipient(s). > >> >>>> > >> >> Any > >> >> > >> >>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly > >> prohibited. > >> >>>> > >> >>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message > >> >>>>>>> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, > >> >>>>>>> > >> >> Andy > >> >> > >> >>>> Blunden wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and > >> >>>> energy > >> to > >> >>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense > >> >>>> to > >> say > >> >>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their > >> >>>> best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this > >> >>>> question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in > >> >>>> the best interest of > >> this > >> >>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > >> >>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed > >> mechanisms > >> >>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be > >> damaging > >> >>>> to them. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Andy > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >> >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is > >> >>>>> an instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more > >> >>>>> realistic expectations of school based collaborations are in > >> >>>>> order. There is compromise with every human relationship and > >> >>>>> the same is true in collaborative activities with children and > schools. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for > >> >>>>> these > >> types > >> >>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a > >> >>>>> school setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to > >> >>>>> include the possibility of compromise, an open lens attending > >> >>>>> to productive silencing and what I had referred to in earlier > >> >>>>> drafts as productive privileging (Will's case in the article), > >> >>>>> a critical evaluation of learning and the kinds of learning that > has taken place. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> >>> Assistant Professor > >> >>> Department of Anthropology > >> >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> >>> Brigham Young University > >> >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >> >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mcderm.dor.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 543741 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140331/bf682153/attachment-0001.pdf From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Mar 31 21:57:18 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 21:57:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: Charles, Your book looks fascinating and is free to download. What a generous gift to the world On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > My recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on Vygotsky and > friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic interactionism > and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they articulate and > contrast with other traditions, including some specific comparisons with > LSV. The book is downloadable at > http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Purss > Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Paul > > Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko > > in his > > most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko has also > > written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism with her > reading > > of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical > mediations. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > From NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au Mon Mar 31 22:07:32 2014 From: NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au (Nektarios Alexi) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 05:07:32 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> Message-ID: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAA3C223DCB@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Indeed, I had a look and it seems to be a germ! -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2014 2:27 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Charles, Your book looks fascinating and is free to download. What a generous gift to the world On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > My recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on Vygotsky > and friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic > interactionism and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they > articulate and contrast with other traditions, including some specific > comparisons with LSV. The book is downloadable at > http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Purss > Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Paul > > Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko > > in his most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko > > has also written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism > > with her > reading > > of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical > mediations. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > > > mead's symbolic interactionism with vygotsky's theory....any > > > suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >