From smago@uga.edu Sun Jun 1 03:09:07 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 10:09:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: call-for-papers-international-creativity-collaborative In-Reply-To: References: <3d5815f1543e4921867d7d67b7800aa7@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Sorry to say that I only forwarded the note; please contact the organizers. Best,Peter -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of larry smolucha Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 5:47 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: call-for-papers-international-creativity-collaborative Peter, Since the call for papers was only posted on May 29th, can the deadline for proposals be extended beyond May 30th. I can submit a proposal for may my paper on Creativity and Cultural Synergy in just a couple days. Thanks - Francine > From: smago@uga.edu > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu; NCRLL@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU > Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 20:08:56 +0000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] > call-for-papers-international-creativity-collaborative > > http://fyi.coe.uga.edu/2014/05/29/deadline-may-30th-call-for-papers-in > ternational-creativity-collaborative/ From smago@uga.edu Mon Jun 2 05:53:44 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:53:44 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] pre-pub pdf Message-ID: <7ed8b7b40c8f4f988874af13ced1e2f5@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> If anyone's interested in mental health and/or LSV's work in defectology, the attached article might be of interest. Best,Peter Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga [cid:image001.jpg@01CEA4AC.71367E90] -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2929 bytes Desc: image001.jpg Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140602/639b25fb/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LCSI_2014.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1004454 bytes Desc: LCSI_2014.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140602/639b25fb/attachment-0001.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jun 4 10:33:17 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 18:33:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] basic prerequisites for CHAT supervision? Message-ID: In consideration of a simple list of requirements for good supervision in CHAT, the following criteria seem important to me. Has anyone else thought about this or tried to formulate it? What would people amend? Is there a shared sense of what is important? 1. Personal commitment to a "pedagogic oath". 2. Thoroughgoing appreciation of cultural-historical conceptions and their disparity from the norms of induction into social science, such as the more profound notion of qualitative research on the basis of dialectical and genetic considerations. 3. Interpersonal commitments informed by the intellectual knowledge, i.e. a practicing awareness of ZPD that informs the vocational commitment (item 1). 4. A present social situational disposition to engage in interested dialogue with the student that has substantive benefits for the supervisor too (i.e not merely administrative ones). Best, Huw From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:09:09 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 19:09:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Bryan Magee introductory conversations on western philosophers Message-ID: I've been enjoying these introductory talks on youtube recently. I expect others here would like them too: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bryan+magee+philosophy I thought the brief talk on Hegel and Marx omitted the rather important notion of the relation between labour and mind, but there's only so much that can be presented in 40 minutes or so. Best, Huw From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Jun 4 11:51:18 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 11:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: basic prerequisites for CHAT supervision? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your question is very difficult to answer, Huw, because it takes us to the question of "education for what," and I strongly suspect that a lot of work would have to be done to arrive at a coherent, finite, concensus. I am on board myself with the impulses in 2-4, although their interpretation, too, is likely to be variable. I would be interested in the extent to which CRADLE already follows an approach such as you are proposing. I have not read their documents recently and do not know their pedagogical credo, but given Yrjo's proclivity to view development as breaking away and creating the new, I imagine some such processes are in that approach. mike On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > In consideration of a simple list of requirements for good supervision in > CHAT, the following criteria seem important to me. Has anyone else thought > about this or tried to formulate it? What would people amend? Is there a > shared sense of what is important? > > 1. Personal commitment to a "pedagogic oath". > 2. Thoroughgoing appreciation of cultural-historical conceptions and their > disparity from the norms of induction into social science, such as the more > profound notion of qualitative research on the basis of dialectical and > genetic considerations. > 3. Interpersonal commitments informed by the intellectual knowledge, i.e. a > practicing awareness of ZPD that informs the vocational commitment (item > 1). > 4. A present social situational disposition to engage in interested > dialogue with the student that has substantive benefits for the supervisor > too (i.e not merely administrative ones). > > Best, > Huw > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Jun 4 15:04:07 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 07:04:07 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: discussing "Posing the question" In-Reply-To: References: <5369818B-A177-4BA4-817D-AF2F66EF077C@umich.edu> <3EE98002-9D92-4C80-A2FC-CA6416FF6FD2@umich.edu> Message-ID: I've been reading a lot about the work of Otto Neurath, who is mentioned briefly by Vygotsky in the context of his discussion of "rudimentary functions" (e.g. Rock, Paper, Scissors in making decisions). He was apparently involved in the Munich soviet, briefly imprisoned, then a city official in "Red Vienna", where he seems to have become more interested in museum curating than anything else. His big dream was to design something called the "Vienna Method" which later became "Isotype", the "International System of Typographical Education" that forms the basis of most of our translinguistic street signs and danger instructions today. The idea was to make Vienna's museum's accessible to foreigners, children, and other illiterates. With the Anschluss, Neurath and his wife took refuge in Rotterdam, where she died. He then fled to England in an open boat with the woman who was to become his third wife and co-designer (and they were immediately separated and interned as enemy aliens upon their arrival!). It was apparently during the channel crossing that he came up with the quotation he is most remembered for, "We are like sailors who must rebuild their ship on the open sea, never able to dismantle it in dry-dock and to reconstruct it there out of the best materials.? It's a pretty good description of the way Isotype works--the system is okay for giving you here and now, but it has to convey negation and conditionality through red circles and triangles, which are only mean that if you already know that they do. It seems to me that Neurath is essentially pursuing the same problem as Rolf, in exactly the same context--how do you get children to go from non-symbolic appreciations of art to higher sorts? And it seems to me that intrinsically linguistic systems, like negation and conditionality, are key. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 30 May 2014 00:13, Rolf Steier wrote: > David and Ed, I'm going to think about this a little more but first thank > you for these thoughtful responses, > rolf > > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > Rolf > > > > Thanks for giving me an opportunity to think more about mimesis. > > Some rambling follows: > > > > Gebauer and Wulf in Memesis (around p315 there is a summary of much > > of what I am paraphrasing/interpreting) suggest that mimesis concerns the > > making [I think here about your conversation with Huw about 'discovery' > > and 'making'] of symbolic worlds with, for instance, gesture, Such worlds > > have an existence of their own; i.e. they can be understood from within > in > > their own terms. These symbolic worlds are transformations of a prior > world > > (the world of 'Others') into the world of 'I/we.' Mimesis is realized, > in > > essence, as a dialogic activity (I don't think this necessarily excludes > > narration, but I could be wrong) taken by participants, a deed or doing. > In > > this frame Mimetic Gesturing is one way of transforming the 'Other'; > > however depiction (as distinct from Mimetic Gesturing) seems another. > > > > So, perhaps (and this is complete speculation) the girls have > > purposively intertwined their depiction of the body of the figure in the > > work with its title to produce/make, in their eyes, a 'standalone' > > dialogical event (or symbolic world). Perhaps, the gesturing is for the > > self and/or friend (I mean I/we). In any case, in this framing the > > transformation has its roots in the object of representation and is > > realized in the gesture and its uptake by the recipient. So your > questions > > below are critical. > > > > I hope this makes some sort of sense as I am still thinking about > > mimesis and depiction. > > > > Best > > > > Ed > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > Thank you for asking this because I had been reflecting some after > > sending the previous email and thought this topic might need more > > discussion. I view mimesis as one form of gestural depiction. Streeck > > defines Mimetic Gesturing as ?the performance of gestures to depict > > physical acts or behavior? (p 144 of Gesturecraft). > > > > > > I absolutely agree that posing with an artwork can be interpreted as > > mimesis. Where this becomes more complex (and I think interesting!) - Is > > when we ask what it is that is being depicted? If we use Episode 1 from > the > > article (Figure 6 on p160) - it might be that the girls are depicting the > > body of the figure in the work. Another interpretation could be that they > > are depicting the painting itself (with the implication that they are > > acknowledging the intentionality of the artist in forming her own > > depiction). I believe that at some point in this interaction, the girls > are > > implicitly acknowledging the intentionality of the artist because the > girl > > on the left incorporates the title of the work (Four Artists) into her > > interpretation. I chose to use the term ?posing gesture? as a form of > > gestural depiction that is distinct from mimesis. I think that > > relationships between the artist, figure, artwork, and visitors are > complex > > and that some aspect of these relationships might be lost if we interpret > > it only as a gesture ?depicting a physical act.? There is also the issue > of > > who the gesture is for (the self, the friend, or both). Perhaps this > > contradicts my previous email a little, but thank you for asking me to > > reflect on it again. > > > > > > Ed - what do you think? Maybe there is a broader question here about > the > > object of representation.. what a gesture is of? and who it is for? > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > Rolf > > > > > > If you would, could you say more why you think 'depiction' rather > > than 'mimesis' better captures the dialogic relationship between the > > participants. An example from your paper would be helpful. > > > > > > Ed Wall > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > Hello David, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your comments and for sharing your book as well. > > > > > > > > You noted that you found the idea of young people posing for Flickr a > > > > little depressing - and I can certainly understand this. Not to add > to > > this > > > > depression, but remember that few young people even visit museums at > > all > > > > outside of school visits! I don?t think that ?flickr? was a > > particularly > > > > large motivator in the end. The most surprising finding that led to > > this > > > > study was that visitors ?pose? naturally. Many many people when > > approaching > > > > Munch?s ?The Scream? would bring their hands to their faces to > > ?scream? as > > > > a part of normal museum practice. I think the exciting thing is > > building > > > > off of this natural tendency to create richer engagements and > > conversations > > > > with and about the art- Not to replace interactions with the works > with > > > > photo taking activities. Although it is also interesting to see what > > > > expectations youth bring to these experiences. > > > > > > > > You also provided a few questions that I wanted to follow up on. You > > > > mention a distinction between ?mimesis? and ?depiction? that I think > is > > > > really interesting. I actually spent a great deal of time debating > the > > > > appropriate concept to use to describe these activities and I think > > both > > > > are appropriate and share subtle distinctions. I agree that ?mimesis? > > > > implies a dialogic relationship between the participant and the > > artwork - > > > > but I would also argue that ?depiction? better captures the dialogic > > > > relationship between the participants. I used the concept of > depiction > > to > > > > be consistent with Streeck?s framework. > > > > > > > > You also mention that assuming gestures are either iconic or deictic > > > > suggests that artwork does not have ideal content? Maybe you can > > elaborate > > > > on what you mean by ideal content? I hope that I didn?t give the > > impression > > > > that I feel visitor gestures are limited to these types (A goal of > this > > > > article was to introduce posing as a unique gestural activity). > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:18 AM, David Kellogg < > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think I'd like to try to tie the discussion of Rolf Steier's > > intriguing > > > >> article to a book we published in January here in Korea, a book > which > > is > > > >> also related to the discussion of Vygotsky, the Imagination, and > > > >> Creativity. > > > >> > > > >> Since we are discussing posing and artworks, let me provide the > cover > > of > > > >> our book, a painting by the Russian children's portraitist Nikolai > > > >> Bogdanov-Belsky. > > > >> > > > >> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445536 > > > >> > > > >> The book contains three very different works by Vygotsky on > > creativity and > > > >> imagination, which we translated into Korean: his "popular science" > > account > > > >> ("Imagination and Creativity in the Child", which was published in > > JREEP in > > > >> 2004), "Imagination and Creativity in Adolescence", which was > > published in > > > >> "Pedology of the Adolescent" and which can be found in the Vygotsky > > Reader > > > >> (Blackwell, 1994) and "Imagination and its Development in > Childhood", > > part > > > >> of which appears in Volume One of the English Collected Works. > > > >> > > > >> But the cover painting really says it all in gesture: Vygotsky > > asks--and > > > >> answers--the question of why one form of creativity after another is > > > >> exhausted, when the child's imagination is still developing > > vigorously. The > > > >> child poses. Then, at a certain point, the child becomes > > disillusioned with > > > >> mere posing and becomes interested in drawing. The child draws. > Then, > > at a > > > >> certain point (usually right when the child appears to be making > real > > > >> progress), the child becomes disillusioned with drawing and takes up > > > >> writing. The child writes. Then, at a certain point (usually, as > > captured > > > >> by Bogdanov-Belsky, right when the child begins to learn how to > write > > > >> compositions in school) the child becomes disillusioned. The now > > powerless > > > >> and disillusioned daydream, which we extravagantly call > > "imagination", is > > > >> all that is left. > > > >> > > > >> I liked the article. I loved the idea that recreating a painting as > a > > > >> "tableau vivant" includes both an external plane (dialogue) and and > > > >> internal one (narrative). I thought the ability of the author to > > recover a > > > >> kind of underlying structure of pose, comparison, focus, and > > adjustment > > > >> from the careful analysis of two incidents was actually very > > convincing and > > > >> shows the power of a theoretically informed analysis over a > > statistically > > > >> equipped but merely empirical one. I also find this underlying > > structure > > > >> far more helpful than the usual vague talk about extra-corporeal > > artistic > > > >> experience and reflection that we get, even in the work of Bakhtin. > > > >> > > > >> But I confess, I found the idea that children spend their days in > > museums > > > >> recreating paintings with their bodies for a Flickr account a little > > > >> depressing. I wonder if there is any evidence that the evident > > > >> understanding that emerges leads to any actual creativity or even > any > > > >> posing outside the museum. Perhaps, if it doesn't, that is a good > > thing: > > > >> Munch, in addition to being a smoker, was a notorious depressive. > > > >> > > > >> Some specific questions: > > > >> > > > >> a) On p. 149, the author says that "meaning is embedded in the > word". > > > >> Doesn't this imply a conduit metaphor? Isn't it more likely--on the > > basis > > > >> of the author's own argument--that the way in which words carry > > cultural > > > >> meaning is by forcing the hearer to re-enact the meaning making > > itself? > > > >> > > > >> b) On p. 151, the author appears to confuse the concept of metaphor > > with > > > >> Lakoff and Johnson's "conceptual metaphor". Also, I can't see how > > children > > > >> can develop concepts from metaphors, because it seems to me that in > > order > > > >> to have a metaphor you need a concept first. > > > >> > > > >> c) On p. 152: if we assume that visitor gestures are either iconic > or > > > >> deictic, doesn't that suggest that artwork has no ideal content at > > all? > > > >> > > > >> d) On p. 152, the bottom: isn't "depiction" more of a NARRATIVE > > stance, > > > >> while mimesis is a more DIALOGIC one because it places us inside the > > > >> artwork? Just a thought. > > > >> > > > >> I remember taking part in an art exhibition in my wife's hometown of > > Xi'an > > > >> in China twenty years ago where we left a huge canvas by the exit > and > > > >> invited all the viewers to try to paint something. It was at a big > > > >> university and some of engineering students tried gamely, until the > > art > > > >> students came along and painted everything black. Interestingly, > > though, > > > >> neither the engineering students nor the art students tried to > > reproduce > > > >> any of the artworks--they were more interested in looking out the > > window > > > >> than in looking back at the exhibition. > > > >> > > > >> David Kellogg > > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 23 May 2014 01:09, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Dear XMCA, > > > >>> > > > >>> Rolf Steier is now on XMCA, and his article "Posing the question" > is > > open > > > >>> on the T and F website: > > > >>> > > > >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/.U3zs4Sjsq24 > > > >>> > > > >>> Just click on the green button to the right side of the article. > > > >>> > > > >>> There is loads to talk about, and one question that comes to mind > is > > in > > > >>> relation to the museum installation as a design experiment. In what > > sense > > > >>> is it a design experiment? What does it make visible? How is > learning > > > >>> shaped by access to this experience in a museum? > > > >>> > > > >>> More questions? > > > >>> > > > >>> Best - jen > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Wed Jun 4 15:22:31 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2014 22:22:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: discussing "Posing the question" In-Reply-To: References: <5369818B-A177-4BA4-817D-AF2F66EF077C@umich.edu> <3EE98002-9D92-4C80-A2FC-CA6416FF6FD2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Neurath was also an important member of the Vienna Circle, and one of the editors, with Carnap and Morris, of the ambitious "Foundations of the unity of science: Toward an international encyclopedia of unified science." Martin On Jun 4, 2014, at 5:04 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > I've been reading a lot about the work of Otto Neurath, who is mentioned > briefly by Vygotsky in the context of his discussion of "rudimentary > functions" (e.g. Rock, Paper, Scissors in making decisions). He was > apparently involved in the Munich soviet, briefly imprisoned, then a city > official in "Red Vienna", where he seems to have become more interested in > museum curating than anything else. His big dream was to design something > called the "Vienna Method" which later became "Isotype", the "International > System of Typographical Education" that forms the basis of most of our > translinguistic street signs and danger instructions today. The idea was to > make Vienna's museum's accessible to foreigners, children, and other > illiterates. With the Anschluss, Neurath and his wife took refuge in > Rotterdam, where she died. He then fled to England in an open boat with the > woman who was to become his third wife and co-designer (and they were > immediately separated and interned as enemy aliens upon their arrival!). It > was apparently during the channel crossing that he came up with the > quotation he is most remembered for, "We are like sailors who must rebuild > their ship on the open sea, never able to dismantle it in dry-dock and to > reconstruct it there out of the best materials.? > > It's a pretty good description of the way Isotype works--the system is okay > for giving you here and now, but it has to convey negation and > conditionality through red circles and triangles, which are only mean that > if you already know that they do. It seems to me that Neurath is > essentially pursuing the same problem as Rolf, in exactly the same > context--how do you get children to go from non-symbolic appreciations of > art to higher sorts? And it seems to me that intrinsically linguistic > systems, like negation and conditionality, are key. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 30 May 2014 00:13, Rolf Steier wrote: > >> David and Ed, I'm going to think about this a little more but first thank >> you for these thoughtful responses, >> rolf >> >> >> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Ed Wall wrote: >> >>> Rolf >>> >>> Thanks for giving me an opportunity to think more about mimesis. >>> Some rambling follows: >>> >>> Gebauer and Wulf in Memesis (around p315 there is a summary of much >>> of what I am paraphrasing/interpreting) suggest that mimesis concerns the >>> making [I think here about your conversation with Huw about 'discovery' >>> and 'making'] of symbolic worlds with, for instance, gesture, Such worlds >>> have an existence of their own; i.e. they can be understood from within >> in >>> their own terms. These symbolic worlds are transformations of a prior >> world >>> (the world of 'Others') into the world of 'I/we.' Mimesis is realized, >> in >>> essence, as a dialogic activity (I don't think this necessarily excludes >>> narration, but I could be wrong) taken by participants, a deed or doing. >> In >>> this frame Mimetic Gesturing is one way of transforming the 'Other'; >>> however depiction (as distinct from Mimetic Gesturing) seems another. >>> >>> So, perhaps (and this is complete speculation) the girls have >>> purposively intertwined their depiction of the body of the figure in the >>> work with its title to produce/make, in their eyes, a 'standalone' >>> dialogical event (or symbolic world). Perhaps, the gesturing is for the >>> self and/or friend (I mean I/we). In any case, in this framing the >>> transformation has its roots in the object of representation and is >>> realized in the gesture and its uptake by the recipient. So your >> questions >>> below are critical. >>> >>> I hope this makes some sort of sense as I am still thinking about >>> mimesis and depiction. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On May 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Rolf Steier wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ed, >>>> Thank you for asking this because I had been reflecting some after >>> sending the previous email and thought this topic might need more >>> discussion. I view mimesis as one form of gestural depiction. Streeck >>> defines Mimetic Gesturing as ?the performance of gestures to depict >>> physical acts or behavior? (p 144 of Gesturecraft). >>>> >>>> I absolutely agree that posing with an artwork can be interpreted as >>> mimesis. Where this becomes more complex (and I think interesting!) - Is >>> when we ask what it is that is being depicted? If we use Episode 1 from >> the >>> article (Figure 6 on p160) - it might be that the girls are depicting the >>> body of the figure in the work. Another interpretation could be that they >>> are depicting the painting itself (with the implication that they are >>> acknowledging the intentionality of the artist in forming her own >>> depiction). I believe that at some point in this interaction, the girls >> are >>> implicitly acknowledging the intentionality of the artist because the >> girl >>> on the left incorporates the title of the work (Four Artists) into her >>> interpretation. I chose to use the term ?posing gesture? as a form of >>> gestural depiction that is distinct from mimesis. I think that >>> relationships between the artist, figure, artwork, and visitors are >> complex >>> and that some aspect of these relationships might be lost if we interpret >>> it only as a gesture ?depicting a physical act.? There is also the issue >> of >>> who the gesture is for (the self, the friend, or both). Perhaps this >>> contradicts my previous email a little, but thank you for asking me to >>> reflect on it again. >>>> >>>> Ed - what do you think? Maybe there is a broader question here about >> the >>> object of representation.. what a gesture is of? and who it is for? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Ed Wall wrote: >>>> Rolf >>>> >>>> If you would, could you say more why you think 'depiction' rather >>> than 'mimesis' better captures the dialogic relationship between the >>> participants. An example from your paper would be helpful. >>>> >>>> Ed Wall >>>> >>>> On May 27, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello David, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your comments and for sharing your book as well. >>>>> >>>>> You noted that you found the idea of young people posing for Flickr a >>>>> little depressing - and I can certainly understand this. Not to add >> to >>> this >>>>> depression, but remember that few young people even visit museums at >>> all >>>>> outside of school visits! I don?t think that ?flickr? was a >>> particularly >>>>> large motivator in the end. The most surprising finding that led to >>> this >>>>> study was that visitors ?pose? naturally. Many many people when >>> approaching >>>>> Munch?s ?The Scream? would bring their hands to their faces to >>> ?scream? as >>>>> a part of normal museum practice. I think the exciting thing is >>> building >>>>> off of this natural tendency to create richer engagements and >>> conversations >>>>> with and about the art- Not to replace interactions with the works >> with >>>>> photo taking activities. Although it is also interesting to see what >>>>> expectations youth bring to these experiences. >>>>> >>>>> You also provided a few questions that I wanted to follow up on. You >>>>> mention a distinction between ?mimesis? and ?depiction? that I think >> is >>>>> really interesting. I actually spent a great deal of time debating >> the >>>>> appropriate concept to use to describe these activities and I think >>> both >>>>> are appropriate and share subtle distinctions. I agree that ?mimesis? >>>>> implies a dialogic relationship between the participant and the >>> artwork - >>>>> but I would also argue that ?depiction? better captures the dialogic >>>>> relationship between the participants. I used the concept of >> depiction >>> to >>>>> be consistent with Streeck?s framework. >>>>> >>>>> You also mention that assuming gestures are either iconic or deictic >>>>> suggests that artwork does not have ideal content? Maybe you can >>> elaborate >>>>> on what you mean by ideal content? I hope that I didn?t give the >>> impression >>>>> that I feel visitor gestures are limited to these types (A goal of >> this >>>>> article was to introduce posing as a unique gestural activity). >>>>> >>>>> Thank you! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:18 AM, David Kellogg < >> dkellogg60@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think I'd like to try to tie the discussion of Rolf Steier's >>> intriguing >>>>>> article to a book we published in January here in Korea, a book >> which >>> is >>>>>> also related to the discussion of Vygotsky, the Imagination, and >>>>>> Creativity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since we are discussing posing and artworks, let me provide the >> cover >>> of >>>>>> our book, a painting by the Russian children's portraitist Nikolai >>>>>> Bogdanov-Belsky. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445536 >>>>>> >>>>>> The book contains three very different works by Vygotsky on >>> creativity and >>>>>> imagination, which we translated into Korean: his "popular science" >>> account >>>>>> ("Imagination and Creativity in the Child", which was published in >>> JREEP in >>>>>> 2004), "Imagination and Creativity in Adolescence", which was >>> published in >>>>>> "Pedology of the Adolescent" and which can be found in the Vygotsky >>> Reader >>>>>> (Blackwell, 1994) and "Imagination and its Development in >> Childhood", >>> part >>>>>> of which appears in Volume One of the English Collected Works. >>>>>> >>>>>> But the cover painting really says it all in gesture: Vygotsky >>> asks--and >>>>>> answers--the question of why one form of creativity after another is >>>>>> exhausted, when the child's imagination is still developing >>> vigorously. The >>>>>> child poses. Then, at a certain point, the child becomes >>> disillusioned with >>>>>> mere posing and becomes interested in drawing. The child draws. >> Then, >>> at a >>>>>> certain point (usually right when the child appears to be making >> real >>>>>> progress), the child becomes disillusioned with drawing and takes up >>>>>> writing. The child writes. Then, at a certain point (usually, as >>> captured >>>>>> by Bogdanov-Belsky, right when the child begins to learn how to >> write >>>>>> compositions in school) the child becomes disillusioned. The now >>> powerless >>>>>> and disillusioned daydream, which we extravagantly call >>> "imagination", is >>>>>> all that is left. >>>>>> >>>>>> I liked the article. I loved the idea that recreating a painting as >> a >>>>>> "tableau vivant" includes both an external plane (dialogue) and and >>>>>> internal one (narrative). I thought the ability of the author to >>> recover a >>>>>> kind of underlying structure of pose, comparison, focus, and >>> adjustment >>>>>> from the careful analysis of two incidents was actually very >>> convincing and >>>>>> shows the power of a theoretically informed analysis over a >>> statistically >>>>>> equipped but merely empirical one. I also find this underlying >>> structure >>>>>> far more helpful than the usual vague talk about extra-corporeal >>> artistic >>>>>> experience and reflection that we get, even in the work of Bakhtin. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I confess, I found the idea that children spend their days in >>> museums >>>>>> recreating paintings with their bodies for a Flickr account a little >>>>>> depressing. I wonder if there is any evidence that the evident >>>>>> understanding that emerges leads to any actual creativity or even >> any >>>>>> posing outside the museum. Perhaps, if it doesn't, that is a good >>> thing: >>>>>> Munch, in addition to being a smoker, was a notorious depressive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some specific questions: >>>>>> >>>>>> a) On p. 149, the author says that "meaning is embedded in the >> word". >>>>>> Doesn't this imply a conduit metaphor? Isn't it more likely--on the >>> basis >>>>>> of the author's own argument--that the way in which words carry >>> cultural >>>>>> meaning is by forcing the hearer to re-enact the meaning making >>> itself? >>>>>> >>>>>> b) On p. 151, the author appears to confuse the concept of metaphor >>> with >>>>>> Lakoff and Johnson's "conceptual metaphor". Also, I can't see how >>> children >>>>>> can develop concepts from metaphors, because it seems to me that in >>> order >>>>>> to have a metaphor you need a concept first. >>>>>> >>>>>> c) On p. 152: if we assume that visitor gestures are either iconic >> or >>>>>> deictic, doesn't that suggest that artwork has no ideal content at >>> all? >>>>>> >>>>>> d) On p. 152, the bottom: isn't "depiction" more of a NARRATIVE >>> stance, >>>>>> while mimesis is a more DIALOGIC one because it places us inside the >>>>>> artwork? Just a thought. >>>>>> >>>>>> I remember taking part in an art exhibition in my wife's hometown of >>> Xi'an >>>>>> in China twenty years ago where we left a huge canvas by the exit >> and >>>>>> invited all the viewers to try to paint something. It was at a big >>>>>> university and some of engineering students tried gamely, until the >>> art >>>>>> students came along and painted everything black. Interestingly, >>> though, >>>>>> neither the engineering students nor the art students tried to >>> reproduce >>>>>> any of the artworks--they were more interested in looking out the >>> window >>>>>> than in looking back at the exhibition. >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23 May 2014 01:09, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer >> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear XMCA, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Rolf Steier is now on XMCA, and his article "Posing the question" >> is >>> open >>>>>>> on the T and F website: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/.U3zs4Sjsq24 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just click on the green button to the right side of the article. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is loads to talk about, and one question that comes to mind >> is >>> in >>>>>>> relation to the museum installation as a design experiment. In what >>> sense >>>>>>> is it a design experiment? What does it make visible? How is >> learning >>>>>>> shaped by access to this experience in a museum? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> More questions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best - jen >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jun 5 05:35:41 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 13:35:41 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reading Kozulin's "Vygotsky's Psychology: A Biography of Ideas" Message-ID: I recall reading from Kozulin's "Vygotsky's Psychology: A Biography of Ideas" a while ago and enjoying the text. Can we confirm what chapters we'd like to discuss and what questions we have please? Best, Huw On 23 May 2014 17:23, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > On 23 May 2014 16:43, mike cole wrote: > >> I have in fact been reading Alex's book, Larry. >> >> I recommend strongly his chapters on Tool and Symbol and Language and >> Thought. >> >> Especially the former I found to be unusually well presented in ways that >> helped me. >> >> The future that Alex was pointing towards looks a good deal like what >> became the concerns of the Comm department here at UCSD - a combination of >> humanities, social sciences, and arts with mediation as its central >> organizing concept. >> >> If some group of xmca-ites would like to jointly read a chapter or two, I >> would be glad to join in. >> >> mike? >> >> > Yes, count me in. I think we should do Rolf Steier's paper justice first, > though, which I haven't even downloaded yet. > > Best, > Huw > > > >> On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> >> > I want to thank everyone for their reflections on consciousness and >> > intellect. >> > Mike commented, >> > Well, myself I am following Larry's lead and reading Alex's book on >> > Vygotsky so that i can understand the context in which he brought this >> > topic up, and in the context of his general interpretation of core >> > Vygotskian concepts. >> > >> > I re-read Alex last comment in the epilogue of his book *Vygotsky's >> > Psychology* which gives his understanding of why he wrote this book. >> Alex >> > reads Vygotsky's legacy as having moved through 3 stages. >> > In the 1920's and 1930's the focus was on SOCIAL mediation to help >> create >> > the *new man*. >> > In the 1960's Vygotsky was re-discovered in the West as a response to >> > Piaget's quasi-naturalistic theory of development. >> > >> > In 1990, when the book was written Kozulin suggest a new plane opened. >> Here >> > is Kozulin's understanding of this third phase of Vygotsky's legacy. >> [page >> > 278] >> > >> > "The third plane of Vygotsky's theory, the contours of which are only >> just >> > emerging, presupposes both the re-evaluation of its origins and its >> > projection into the future of psychology. What in the 1920's appeared >> to be >> > a rather straight forward thesis of SOCIAL mediation, and in the 1960's >> as >> > a necessary correction to the overly individualistic approaches of >> Western >> > psychology, nowadays appears as a new problem emerging from the >> realization >> > that social and cultural mediatory mechanisms do not coincide. >> Vygotsky's >> > analysis of the crisis in psychology, earlier perceived as a critique of >> > psychology's past, is now recognized as an inquiry into the fundamental >> > mechanism of psychology's divergent development. The origins and >> context of >> > Vygotsky's theory are now being seen in a new light.; in the place of >> > comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of >> > PHILOSOPHICAL HERMENEUTICS AND THE THEORY OF COMMUNICATIVE ACTION. In >> an >> > even broader sense, what once looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO >> > psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least beyond >> > traditional psychology and into the sphere of the human studies BASED on >> > the humanities, rather than the scientific model." >> > >> > Mike, how others *respond* to Kozulin's vision that a new plane based on >> > the humanities is a re-visioning that goes too far BEYOND Vygotsky or if >> > they acknowledge this third plane as a valid emerging of a hermeneutical >> > response is an open question. >> > Thought Kozulin's epilogue may generate more reflections and responses >> on >> > his perspective of the relation of [intellect] and [consciousness] >> > >> > Larry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Andy Blunden >> wrote: >> > >> > > "A" paradigmatic exemplar will do, Mike. >> > > Vygotsky worked hard on the emotions, but my reading of his work on >> the >> > > emotions is that he did not bring his methodological work to a >> > > conclusive outcome, but I think nonetheless, writers of our time have >> > > been able to write Vygotskyan studies of the emotions, thanks to the >> > > fact that Vygotsky gave us an exemplar with study of the intellect. I >> > > take Vygotsky's work on the development of the personality through >> > > perezhivanija as *another* exermplar he left us. >> > > >> > > Andy >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > *Andy Blunden* >> > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > > >> > > >> > > mike cole wrote: >> > > >> > >> Well, myself I am following Larry's lead and reading Alex's book on >> > >> Vygotsky so that i can understand the context in which he brought >> this >> > >> topic up, and in the context of his general interpretation of core >> > >> Vygotskian concepts. >> > >> >> > >> I would prefer 2 or three potential paradigmatic exemplars of >> > >> consciousness before I decided that one was THE paradigmatic >> exemplar, >> > >> especially when that examplar is intellect. Also at the end of T&L is >> > >> Spinoza and emotion. >> > >> >> > >> mike >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Andy Blunden > > > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> David, there is terminology, categorical distinctions, and the >> > >> content of the science. >> > >> Almost self-evidently, Thinking and Speech broke off at the >> > >> threshold of the content of the science, and regretably, being a >> > >> pioneer meant that his terminology was also unstable and >> > >> rudimentary. My claim was that T&S was decisive in relaiton to >> the >> > >> categorical distinctions underlying the science, despite the >> > >> terminological mess. >> > >> >> > >> I read Vygotsky as a Marxist, rather than as a linguist or a >> > >> Phenomenologist or a teacher, all of which are I am sure >> > >> legitimate standpoints for reading Vygotsky. But I think there is >> > >> some basis for taking it that Vygotsky is using "consciousness" >> in >> > >> line with Marxist terminology at the time indicating the entire >> > >> class of phenomena encompassed by a general psychology, perhaps >> > >> similar to what you mean by "general consciousness"? >> > >> As to the distinction between "dialogical consciousness" and >> > >> "intellect", if we are restricting "dialogic consciousnes" >> > >> typologically to language use, then I think that that is too >> > >> unstable and problematic for a categorical distinction. If on the >> > >> other than we were to widen the meaning of "dialogical" to >> > >> sign-use, then I would identify it with intellect. The spoken >> word >> > >> is the *archetype* of sign-use, but not the only instance of >> > sign-use. >> > >> >> > >> I remain of the view that T&S, and in particular thes closing >> > >> lines, specify that he has devoted the book to a study of the >> > >> *intellect* (the special) as a paradigmatic exemplar for >> > >> psychological research into human *consciousness* (as a whole). >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Andy >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> ------------ >> > >> *Andy Blunden* >> > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jun 5 06:40:03 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 14:40:03 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Collective coordination of informal translations? Message-ID: Just wondering out loud a little: is anyone aware of collective efforts to share informal efforts at translation, i.e. bits and pieces of larger texts that have not made it through to official publications? I suspect once I get through the English writings pertaining to P. Zinchenko, I may need to try and find time to learn some Russian. Best, Huw From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jun 5 07:14:22 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 15:14:22 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: discussing "Posing the question" In-Reply-To: References: <5369818B-A177-4BA4-817D-AF2F66EF077C@umich.edu> <3EE98002-9D92-4C80-A2FC-CA6416FF6FD2@umich.edu> Message-ID: David, In relation to art I believe the term "symbolic" may be productively related to motive in addition to sign. It seems to me that the appreciation of motive in art is "non-signed", i.e. not a discrete demarcation used to coordinate action. So to construe "non-symbolic" as different from the developed form of "higher appreciation of art" may be problematic if you're taking symbolic to mean sign. I can elaborate if this isn't clear. Best, Huw On 4 June 2014 23:04, David Kellogg wrote: > I've been reading a lot about the work of Otto Neurath, who is mentioned > briefly by Vygotsky in the context of his discussion of "rudimentary > functions" (e.g. Rock, Paper, Scissors in making decisions). He was > apparently involved in the Munich soviet, briefly imprisoned, then a city > official in "Red Vienna", where he seems to have become more interested in > museum curating than anything else. His big dream was to design something > called the "Vienna Method" which later became "Isotype", the "International > System of Typographical Education" that forms the basis of most of our > translinguistic street signs and danger instructions today. The idea was to > make Vienna's museum's accessible to foreigners, children, and other > illiterates. With the Anschluss, Neurath and his wife took refuge in > Rotterdam, where she died. He then fled to England in an open boat with the > woman who was to become his third wife and co-designer (and they were > immediately separated and interned as enemy aliens upon their arrival!). It > was apparently during the channel crossing that he came up with the > quotation he is most remembered for, "We are like sailors who must rebuild > their ship on the open sea, never able to dismantle it in dry-dock and to > reconstruct it there out of the best materials.? > > It's a pretty good description of the way Isotype works--the system is okay > for giving you here and now, but it has to convey negation and > conditionality through red circles and triangles, which are only mean that > if you already know that they do. It seems to me that Neurath is > essentially pursuing the same problem as Rolf, in exactly the same > context--how do you get children to go from non-symbolic appreciations of > art to higher sorts? And it seems to me that intrinsically linguistic > systems, like negation and conditionality, are key. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 30 May 2014 00:13, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > David and Ed, I'm going to think about this a little more but first thank > > you for these thoughtful responses, > > rolf > > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > > > Rolf > > > > > > Thanks for giving me an opportunity to think more about mimesis. > > > Some rambling follows: > > > > > > Gebauer and Wulf in Memesis (around p315 there is a summary of > much > > > of what I am paraphrasing/interpreting) suggest that mimesis concerns > the > > > making [I think here about your conversation with Huw about > 'discovery' > > > and 'making'] of symbolic worlds with, for instance, gesture, Such > worlds > > > have an existence of their own; i.e. they can be understood from within > > in > > > their own terms. These symbolic worlds are transformations of a prior > > world > > > (the world of 'Others') into the world of 'I/we.' Mimesis is realized, > > in > > > essence, as a dialogic activity (I don't think this necessarily > excludes > > > narration, but I could be wrong) taken by participants, a deed or > doing. > > In > > > this frame Mimetic Gesturing is one way of transforming the 'Other'; > > > however depiction (as distinct from Mimetic Gesturing) seems another. > > > > > > So, perhaps (and this is complete speculation) the girls have > > > purposively intertwined their depiction of the body of the figure in > the > > > work with its title to produce/make, in their eyes, a 'standalone' > > > dialogical event (or symbolic world). Perhaps, the gesturing is for the > > > self and/or friend (I mean I/we). In any case, in this framing the > > > transformation has its roots in the object of representation and is > > > realized in the gesture and its uptake by the recipient. So your > > questions > > > below are critical. > > > > > > I hope this makes some sort of sense as I am still thinking about > > > mimesis and depiction. > > > > > > Best > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > Thank you for asking this because I had been reflecting some after > > > sending the previous email and thought this topic might need more > > > discussion. I view mimesis as one form of gestural depiction. Streeck > > > defines Mimetic Gesturing as ?the performance of gestures to depict > > > physical acts or behavior? (p 144 of Gesturecraft). > > > > > > > > I absolutely agree that posing with an artwork can be interpreted as > > > mimesis. Where this becomes more complex (and I think interesting!) - > Is > > > when we ask what it is that is being depicted? If we use Episode 1 from > > the > > > article (Figure 6 on p160) - it might be that the girls are depicting > the > > > body of the figure in the work. Another interpretation could be that > they > > > are depicting the painting itself (with the implication that they are > > > acknowledging the intentionality of the artist in forming her own > > > depiction). I believe that at some point in this interaction, the girls > > are > > > implicitly acknowledging the intentionality of the artist because the > > girl > > > on the left incorporates the title of the work (Four Artists) into her > > > interpretation. I chose to use the term ?posing gesture? as a form of > > > gestural depiction that is distinct from mimesis. I think that > > > relationships between the artist, figure, artwork, and visitors are > > complex > > > and that some aspect of these relationships might be lost if we > interpret > > > it only as a gesture ?depicting a physical act.? There is also the > issue > > of > > > who the gesture is for (the self, the friend, or both). Perhaps this > > > contradicts my previous email a little, but thank you for asking me to > > > reflect on it again. > > > > > > > > Ed - what do you think? Maybe there is a broader question here about > > the > > > object of representation.. what a gesture is of? and who it is for? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > > Rolf > > > > > > > > If you would, could you say more why you think 'depiction' > rather > > > than 'mimesis' better captures the dialogic relationship between the > > > participants. An example from your paper would be helpful. > > > > > > > > Ed Wall > > > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello David, > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your comments and for sharing your book as well. > > > > > > > > > > You noted that you found the idea of young people posing for > Flickr a > > > > > little depressing - and I can certainly understand this. Not to add > > to > > > this > > > > > depression, but remember that few young people even visit museums > at > > > all > > > > > outside of school visits! I don?t think that ?flickr? was a > > > particularly > > > > > large motivator in the end. The most surprising finding that led to > > > this > > > > > study was that visitors ?pose? naturally. Many many people when > > > approaching > > > > > Munch?s ?The Scream? would bring their hands to their faces to > > > ?scream? as > > > > > a part of normal museum practice. I think the exciting thing is > > > building > > > > > off of this natural tendency to create richer engagements and > > > conversations > > > > > with and about the art- Not to replace interactions with the works > > with > > > > > photo taking activities. Although it is also interesting to see > what > > > > > expectations youth bring to these experiences. > > > > > > > > > > You also provided a few questions that I wanted to follow up on. > You > > > > > mention a distinction between ?mimesis? and ?depiction? that I > think > > is > > > > > really interesting. I actually spent a great deal of time debating > > the > > > > > appropriate concept to use to describe these activities and I think > > > both > > > > > are appropriate and share subtle distinctions. I agree that > ?mimesis? > > > > > implies a dialogic relationship between the participant and the > > > artwork - > > > > > but I would also argue that ?depiction? better captures the > dialogic > > > > > relationship between the participants. I used the concept of > > depiction > > > to > > > > > be consistent with Streeck?s framework. > > > > > > > > > > You also mention that assuming gestures are either iconic or > deictic > > > > > suggests that artwork does not have ideal content? Maybe you can > > > elaborate > > > > > on what you mean by ideal content? I hope that I didn?t give the > > > impression > > > > > that I feel visitor gestures are limited to these types (A goal of > > this > > > > > article was to introduce posing as a unique gestural activity). > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:18 AM, David Kellogg < > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I think I'd like to try to tie the discussion of Rolf Steier's > > > intriguing > > > > >> article to a book we published in January here in Korea, a book > > which > > > is > > > > >> also related to the discussion of Vygotsky, the Imagination, and > > > > >> Creativity. > > > > >> > > > > >> Since we are discussing posing and artworks, let me provide the > > cover > > > of > > > > >> our book, a painting by the Russian children's portraitist Nikolai > > > > >> Bogdanov-Belsky. > > > > >> > > > > >> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445536 > > > > >> > > > > >> The book contains three very different works by Vygotsky on > > > creativity and > > > > >> imagination, which we translated into Korean: his "popular > science" > > > account > > > > >> ("Imagination and Creativity in the Child", which was published in > > > JREEP in > > > > >> 2004), "Imagination and Creativity in Adolescence", which was > > > published in > > > > >> "Pedology of the Adolescent" and which can be found in the > Vygotsky > > > Reader > > > > >> (Blackwell, 1994) and "Imagination and its Development in > > Childhood", > > > part > > > > >> of which appears in Volume One of the English Collected Works. > > > > >> > > > > >> But the cover painting really says it all in gesture: Vygotsky > > > asks--and > > > > >> answers--the question of why one form of creativity after another > is > > > > >> exhausted, when the child's imagination is still developing > > > vigorously. The > > > > >> child poses. Then, at a certain point, the child becomes > > > disillusioned with > > > > >> mere posing and becomes interested in drawing. The child draws. > > Then, > > > at a > > > > >> certain point (usually right when the child appears to be making > > real > > > > >> progress), the child becomes disillusioned with drawing and takes > up > > > > >> writing. The child writes. Then, at a certain point (usually, as > > > captured > > > > >> by Bogdanov-Belsky, right when the child begins to learn how to > > write > > > > >> compositions in school) the child becomes disillusioned. The now > > > powerless > > > > >> and disillusioned daydream, which we extravagantly call > > > "imagination", is > > > > >> all that is left. > > > > >> > > > > >> I liked the article. I loved the idea that recreating a painting > as > > a > > > > >> "tableau vivant" includes both an external plane (dialogue) and > and > > > > >> internal one (narrative). I thought the ability of the author to > > > recover a > > > > >> kind of underlying structure of pose, comparison, focus, and > > > adjustment > > > > >> from the careful analysis of two incidents was actually very > > > convincing and > > > > >> shows the power of a theoretically informed analysis over a > > > statistically > > > > >> equipped but merely empirical one. I also find this underlying > > > structure > > > > >> far more helpful than the usual vague talk about extra-corporeal > > > artistic > > > > >> experience and reflection that we get, even in the work of > Bakhtin. > > > > >> > > > > >> But I confess, I found the idea that children spend their days in > > > museums > > > > >> recreating paintings with their bodies for a Flickr account a > little > > > > >> depressing. I wonder if there is any evidence that the evident > > > > >> understanding that emerges leads to any actual creativity or even > > any > > > > >> posing outside the museum. Perhaps, if it doesn't, that is a good > > > thing: > > > > >> Munch, in addition to being a smoker, was a notorious depressive. > > > > >> > > > > >> Some specific questions: > > > > >> > > > > >> a) On p. 149, the author says that "meaning is embedded in the > > word". > > > > >> Doesn't this imply a conduit metaphor? Isn't it more likely--on > the > > > basis > > > > >> of the author's own argument--that the way in which words carry > > > cultural > > > > >> meaning is by forcing the hearer to re-enact the meaning making > > > itself? > > > > >> > > > > >> b) On p. 151, the author appears to confuse the concept of > metaphor > > > with > > > > >> Lakoff and Johnson's "conceptual metaphor". Also, I can't see how > > > children > > > > >> can develop concepts from metaphors, because it seems to me that > in > > > order > > > > >> to have a metaphor you need a concept first. > > > > >> > > > > >> c) On p. 152: if we assume that visitor gestures are either iconic > > or > > > > >> deictic, doesn't that suggest that artwork has no ideal content at > > > all? > > > > >> > > > > >> d) On p. 152, the bottom: isn't "depiction" more of a NARRATIVE > > > stance, > > > > >> while mimesis is a more DIALOGIC one because it places us inside > the > > > > >> artwork? Just a thought. > > > > >> > > > > >> I remember taking part in an art exhibition in my wife's hometown > of > > > Xi'an > > > > >> in China twenty years ago where we left a huge canvas by the exit > > and > > > > >> invited all the viewers to try to paint something. It was at a big > > > > >> university and some of engineering students tried gamely, until > the > > > art > > > > >> students came along and painted everything black. Interestingly, > > > though, > > > > >> neither the engineering students nor the art students tried to > > > reproduce > > > > >> any of the artworks--they were more interested in looking out the > > > window > > > > >> than in looking back at the exhibition. > > > > >> > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 23 May 2014 01:09, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < > j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Dear XMCA, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Rolf Steier is now on XMCA, and his article "Posing the question" > > is > > > open > > > > >>> on the T and F website: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/.U3zs4Sjsq24 > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Just click on the green button to the right side of the article. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> There is loads to talk about, and one question that comes to mind > > is > > > in > > > > >>> relation to the museum installation as a design experiment. In > what > > > sense > > > > >>> is it a design experiment? What does it make visible? How is > > learning > > > > >>> shaped by access to this experience in a museum? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> More questions? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best - jen > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Jun 5 09:45:36 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 16:45:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] culture and emotion Message-ID: <87b3d46cba9b4dceaace4462e38f80c3@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> http://mag.uchicago.edu/arts-humanities/human-nurture Some might find this article on Jesse Prinz interesting. Without any apparent connection to the sorts of people referenced by xmca members, he makes an argument on the cultural basis of emotions, with attention to the arts. The article also includes attention to his critics, who are more oriented to biology. It might make a nice introductory reading for students before reading scholarly work on an enduring controversy, if not within xmca between xmca and biologically oriented researchers. From cconnery@ithaca.edu Thu Jun 5 09:56:01 2014 From: cconnery@ithaca.edu (Cathrene Connery) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 16:56:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture and emotion In-Reply-To: <87b3d46cba9b4dceaace4462e38f80c3@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <87b3d46cba9b4dceaace4462e38f80c3@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <269764C1-DD21-4E62-8226-3BF1DF6D4378@ithaca.edu> Thanks, Peter! Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Jun 5, 2014, at 12:47 PM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > http://mag.uchicago.edu/arts-humanities/human-nurture > > Some might find this article on Jesse Prinz interesting. Without any apparent connection to the sorts of people referenced by xmca members, he makes an argument on the cultural basis of emotions, with attention to the arts. The article also includes attention to his critics, who are more oriented to biology. It might make a nice introductory reading for students before reading scholarly work on an enduring controversy, if not within xmca between xmca and biologically oriented researchers. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Jun 5 14:21:02 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 06:21:02 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: discussing "Posing the question" In-Reply-To: References: <5369818B-A177-4BA4-817D-AF2F66EF077C@umich.edu> <3EE98002-9D92-4C80-A2FC-CA6416FF6FD2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Huw-- I'm taking symbol as one kind of sign. It's a sign whose interpretation passes through a culture. So if I see a mosquito and infer that summer is here, that's a sign but it's not a symbol. But if I go into a department store and I see a picture of a mosquito on a box and I infer that the box contains poison of some kind, that is a symbol. If I see a T-shirt with an antlered animal on it, and I infer that the design represents a moose, that is a sign but it is not a symbol. But if I then read and understand the superscript "Abercrombie and Fitch" and I infer that the wearer is the sort of person who will pay large sums of money in order to have somebody else's advertising logo sewn rather than printed on his or her chest, then that is a symbol. Yes, I think that motive is related to the distinction, but I guess I see it as a special case of something much more general: the ability of culture to move motive away from the immediate situation and to make motive into something highly proleptic--something which anticipates and event tries to influence the actions of generations unborn. I don't see how this is possible without culture and even more specifically without speech. The difficulty of writing "danger" logos for future discoverers of our nuclear waste--the fact that the messages which we sent to other galaxies via the "Voyager" are already dated even to us--the ease with which we can distinguish art from pornography are all examples of the indispensability of speech to higher artistic functions). David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 5 June 2014 23:14, Huw Lloyd wrote: > David, > > In relation to art I believe the term "symbolic" may be productively > related to motive in addition to sign. It seems to me that the > appreciation of motive in art is "non-signed", i.e. not a discrete > demarcation used to coordinate action. So to construe "non-symbolic" as > different from the developed form of "higher appreciation of art" may be > problematic if you're taking symbolic to mean sign. > > I can elaborate if this isn't clear. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > On 4 June 2014 23:04, David Kellogg wrote: > > > I've been reading a lot about the work of Otto Neurath, who is mentioned > > briefly by Vygotsky in the context of his discussion of "rudimentary > > functions" (e.g. Rock, Paper, Scissors in making decisions). He was > > apparently involved in the Munich soviet, briefly imprisoned, then a city > > official in "Red Vienna", where he seems to have become more interested > in > > museum curating than anything else. His big dream was to design something > > called the "Vienna Method" which later became "Isotype", the > "International > > System of Typographical Education" that forms the basis of most of our > > translinguistic street signs and danger instructions today. The idea was > to > > make Vienna's museum's accessible to foreigners, children, and other > > illiterates. With the Anschluss, Neurath and his wife took refuge in > > Rotterdam, where she died. He then fled to England in an open boat with > the > > woman who was to become his third wife and co-designer (and they were > > immediately separated and interned as enemy aliens upon their arrival!). > It > > was apparently during the channel crossing that he came up with the > > quotation he is most remembered for, "We are like sailors who must > rebuild > > their ship on the open sea, never able to dismantle it in dry-dock and to > > reconstruct it there out of the best materials.? > > > > It's a pretty good description of the way Isotype works--the system is > okay > > for giving you here and now, but it has to convey negation and > > conditionality through red circles and triangles, which are only mean > that > > if you already know that they do. It seems to me that Neurath is > > essentially pursuing the same problem as Rolf, in exactly the same > > context--how do you get children to go from non-symbolic appreciations of > > art to higher sorts? And it seems to me that intrinsically linguistic > > systems, like negation and conditionality, are key. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > On 30 May 2014 00:13, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > David and Ed, I'm going to think about this a little more but first > thank > > > you for these thoughtful responses, > > > rolf > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > > > > > Rolf > > > > > > > > Thanks for giving me an opportunity to think more about > mimesis. > > > > Some rambling follows: > > > > > > > > Gebauer and Wulf in Memesis (around p315 there is a summary of > > much > > > > of what I am paraphrasing/interpreting) suggest that mimesis concerns > > the > > > > making [I think here about your conversation with Huw about > > 'discovery' > > > > and 'making'] of symbolic worlds with, for instance, gesture, Such > > worlds > > > > have an existence of their own; i.e. they can be understood from > within > > > in > > > > their own terms. These symbolic worlds are transformations of a prior > > > world > > > > (the world of 'Others') into the world of 'I/we.' Mimesis is > realized, > > > in > > > > essence, as a dialogic activity (I don't think this necessarily > > excludes > > > > narration, but I could be wrong) taken by participants, a deed or > > doing. > > > In > > > > this frame Mimetic Gesturing is one way of transforming the 'Other'; > > > > however depiction (as distinct from Mimetic Gesturing) seems another. > > > > > > > > So, perhaps (and this is complete speculation) the girls have > > > > purposively intertwined their depiction of the body of the figure in > > the > > > > work with its title to produce/make, in their eyes, a 'standalone' > > > > dialogical event (or symbolic world). Perhaps, the gesturing is for > the > > > > self and/or friend (I mean I/we). In any case, in this framing the > > > > transformation has its roots in the object of representation and is > > > > realized in the gesture and its uptake by the recipient. So your > > > questions > > > > below are critical. > > > > > > > > I hope this makes some sort of sense as I am still thinking about > > > > mimesis and depiction. > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > Thank you for asking this because I had been reflecting some after > > > > sending the previous email and thought this topic might need more > > > > discussion. I view mimesis as one form of gestural depiction. Streeck > > > > defines Mimetic Gesturing as ?the performance of gestures to depict > > > > physical acts or behavior? (p 144 of Gesturecraft). > > > > > > > > > > I absolutely agree that posing with an artwork can be interpreted > as > > > > mimesis. Where this becomes more complex (and I think interesting!) - > > Is > > > > when we ask what it is that is being depicted? If we use Episode 1 > from > > > the > > > > article (Figure 6 on p160) - it might be that the girls are depicting > > the > > > > body of the figure in the work. Another interpretation could be that > > they > > > > are depicting the painting itself (with the implication that they are > > > > acknowledging the intentionality of the artist in forming her own > > > > depiction). I believe that at some point in this interaction, the > girls > > > are > > > > implicitly acknowledging the intentionality of the artist because the > > > girl > > > > on the left incorporates the title of the work (Four Artists) into > her > > > > interpretation. I chose to use the term ?posing gesture? as a form of > > > > gestural depiction that is distinct from mimesis. I think that > > > > relationships between the artist, figure, artwork, and visitors are > > > complex > > > > and that some aspect of these relationships might be lost if we > > interpret > > > > it only as a gesture ?depicting a physical act.? There is also the > > issue > > > of > > > > who the gesture is for (the self, the friend, or both). Perhaps this > > > > contradicts my previous email a little, but thank you for asking me > to > > > > reflect on it again. > > > > > > > > > > Ed - what do you think? Maybe there is a broader question here > about > > > the > > > > object of representation.. what a gesture is of? and who it is for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > > > Rolf > > > > > > > > > > If you would, could you say more why you think 'depiction' > > rather > > > > than 'mimesis' better captures the dialogic relationship between the > > > > participants. An example from your paper would be helpful. > > > > > > > > > > Ed Wall > > > > > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello David, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your comments and for sharing your book as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > You noted that you found the idea of young people posing for > > Flickr a > > > > > > little depressing - and I can certainly understand this. Not to > add > > > to > > > > this > > > > > > depression, but remember that few young people even visit museums > > at > > > > all > > > > > > outside of school visits! I don?t think that ?flickr? was a > > > > particularly > > > > > > large motivator in the end. The most surprising finding that led > to > > > > this > > > > > > study was that visitors ?pose? naturally. Many many people when > > > > approaching > > > > > > Munch?s ?The Scream? would bring their hands to their faces to > > > > ?scream? as > > > > > > a part of normal museum practice. I think the exciting thing is > > > > building > > > > > > off of this natural tendency to create richer engagements and > > > > conversations > > > > > > with and about the art- Not to replace interactions with the > works > > > with > > > > > > photo taking activities. Although it is also interesting to see > > what > > > > > > expectations youth bring to these experiences. > > > > > > > > > > > > You also provided a few questions that I wanted to follow up on. > > You > > > > > > mention a distinction between ?mimesis? and ?depiction? that I > > think > > > is > > > > > > really interesting. I actually spent a great deal of time > debating > > > the > > > > > > appropriate concept to use to describe these activities and I > think > > > > both > > > > > > are appropriate and share subtle distinctions. I agree that > > ?mimesis? > > > > > > implies a dialogic relationship between the participant and the > > > > artwork - > > > > > > but I would also argue that ?depiction? better captures the > > dialogic > > > > > > relationship between the participants. I used the concept of > > > depiction > > > > to > > > > > > be consistent with Streeck?s framework. > > > > > > > > > > > > You also mention that assuming gestures are either iconic or > > deictic > > > > > > suggests that artwork does not have ideal content? Maybe you can > > > > elaborate > > > > > > on what you mean by ideal content? I hope that I didn?t give the > > > > impression > > > > > > that I feel visitor gestures are limited to these types (A goal > of > > > this > > > > > > article was to introduce posing as a unique gestural activity). > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:18 AM, David Kellogg < > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think I'd like to try to tie the discussion of Rolf Steier's > > > > intriguing > > > > > >> article to a book we published in January here in Korea, a book > > > which > > > > is > > > > > >> also related to the discussion of Vygotsky, the Imagination, and > > > > > >> Creativity. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Since we are discussing posing and artworks, let me provide the > > > cover > > > > of > > > > > >> our book, a painting by the Russian children's portraitist > Nikolai > > > > > >> Bogdanov-Belsky. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445536 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The book contains three very different works by Vygotsky on > > > > creativity and > > > > > >> imagination, which we translated into Korean: his "popular > > science" > > > > account > > > > > >> ("Imagination and Creativity in the Child", which was published > in > > > > JREEP in > > > > > >> 2004), "Imagination and Creativity in Adolescence", which was > > > > published in > > > > > >> "Pedology of the Adolescent" and which can be found in the > > Vygotsky > > > > Reader > > > > > >> (Blackwell, 1994) and "Imagination and its Development in > > > Childhood", > > > > part > > > > > >> of which appears in Volume One of the English Collected Works. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> But the cover painting really says it all in gesture: Vygotsky > > > > asks--and > > > > > >> answers--the question of why one form of creativity after > another > > is > > > > > >> exhausted, when the child's imagination is still developing > > > > vigorously. The > > > > > >> child poses. Then, at a certain point, the child becomes > > > > disillusioned with > > > > > >> mere posing and becomes interested in drawing. The child draws. > > > Then, > > > > at a > > > > > >> certain point (usually right when the child appears to be making > > > real > > > > > >> progress), the child becomes disillusioned with drawing and > takes > > up > > > > > >> writing. The child writes. Then, at a certain point (usually, as > > > > captured > > > > > >> by Bogdanov-Belsky, right when the child begins to learn how to > > > write > > > > > >> compositions in school) the child becomes disillusioned. The now > > > > powerless > > > > > >> and disillusioned daydream, which we extravagantly call > > > > "imagination", is > > > > > >> all that is left. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I liked the article. I loved the idea that recreating a painting > > as > > > a > > > > > >> "tableau vivant" includes both an external plane (dialogue) and > > and > > > > > >> internal one (narrative). I thought the ability of the author to > > > > recover a > > > > > >> kind of underlying structure of pose, comparison, focus, and > > > > adjustment > > > > > >> from the careful analysis of two incidents was actually very > > > > convincing and > > > > > >> shows the power of a theoretically informed analysis over a > > > > statistically > > > > > >> equipped but merely empirical one. I also find this underlying > > > > structure > > > > > >> far more helpful than the usual vague talk about extra-corporeal > > > > artistic > > > > > >> experience and reflection that we get, even in the work of > > Bakhtin. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> But I confess, I found the idea that children spend their days > in > > > > museums > > > > > >> recreating paintings with their bodies for a Flickr account a > > little > > > > > >> depressing. I wonder if there is any evidence that the evident > > > > > >> understanding that emerges leads to any actual creativity or > even > > > any > > > > > >> posing outside the museum. Perhaps, if it doesn't, that is a > good > > > > thing: > > > > > >> Munch, in addition to being a smoker, was a notorious > depressive. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Some specific questions: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> a) On p. 149, the author says that "meaning is embedded in the > > > word". > > > > > >> Doesn't this imply a conduit metaphor? Isn't it more likely--on > > the > > > > basis > > > > > >> of the author's own argument--that the way in which words carry > > > > cultural > > > > > >> meaning is by forcing the hearer to re-enact the meaning making > > > > itself? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> b) On p. 151, the author appears to confuse the concept of > > metaphor > > > > with > > > > > >> Lakoff and Johnson's "conceptual metaphor". Also, I can't see > how > > > > children > > > > > >> can develop concepts from metaphors, because it seems to me that > > in > > > > order > > > > > >> to have a metaphor you need a concept first. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> c) On p. 152: if we assume that visitor gestures are either > iconic > > > or > > > > > >> deictic, doesn't that suggest that artwork has no ideal content > at > > > > all? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> d) On p. 152, the bottom: isn't "depiction" more of a NARRATIVE > > > > stance, > > > > > >> while mimesis is a more DIALOGIC one because it places us inside > > the > > > > > >> artwork? Just a thought. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I remember taking part in an art exhibition in my wife's > hometown > > of > > > > Xi'an > > > > > >> in China twenty years ago where we left a huge canvas by the > exit > > > and > > > > > >> invited all the viewers to try to paint something. It was at a > big > > > > > >> university and some of engineering students tried gamely, until > > the > > > > art > > > > > >> students came along and painted everything black. Interestingly, > > > > though, > > > > > >> neither the engineering students nor the art students tried to > > > > reproduce > > > > > >> any of the artworks--they were more interested in looking out > the > > > > window > > > > > >> than in looking back at the exhibition. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 23 May 2014 01:09, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < > > j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Dear XMCA, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Rolf Steier is now on XMCA, and his article "Posing the > question" > > > is > > > > open > > > > > >>> on the T and F website: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/.U3zs4Sjsq24 > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Just click on the green button to the right side of the > article. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> There is loads to talk about, and one question that comes to > mind > > > is > > > > in > > > > > >>> relation to the museum installation as a design experiment. In > > what > > > > sense > > > > > >>> is it a design experiment? What does it make visible? How is > > > learning > > > > > >>> shaped by access to this experience in a museum? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> More questions? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Best - jen > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Jun 5 15:32:30 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 23:32:30 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: discussing "Posing the question" In-Reply-To: References: <5369818B-A177-4BA4-817D-AF2F66EF077C@umich.edu> <3EE98002-9D92-4C80-A2FC-CA6416FF6FD2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Well, the thought I was offering is that there is a living symbolism that passes around the manifest culture, not through it, a bit like airflow around the morphology of a wing. The "ring of truth" resounding as an historical echo of the forged voyager. Best, Huw On 5 June 2014 22:21, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw-- > > I'm taking symbol as one kind of sign. It's a sign whose interpretation > passes through a culture. > > So if I see a mosquito and infer that summer is here, that's a sign but > it's not a symbol. But if I go into a department store and I see a picture > of a mosquito on a box and I infer that the box contains poison of some > kind, that is a symbol. If I see a T-shirt with an antlered animal on it, > and I infer that the design represents a moose, that is a sign but it is > not a symbol. But if I then read and understand the superscript > "Abercrombie and Fitch" and I infer that the wearer is the sort of person > who will pay large sums of money in order to have somebody else's > advertising logo sewn rather than printed on his or her chest, then that is > a symbol. > > Yes, I think that motive is related to the distinction, but I guess I see > it as a special case of something much more general: the ability of culture > to move motive away from the immediate situation and to make motive into > something highly proleptic--something which anticipates and event tries to > influence the actions of generations unborn. I don't see how this is > possible without culture and even more specifically without speech. The > difficulty of writing "danger" logos for future discoverers of our nuclear > waste--the fact that the messages which we sent to other galaxies via the > "Voyager" are already dated even to us--the ease with which we can > distinguish art from pornography are all examples of the indispensability > of speech to higher artistic functions). > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > On 5 June 2014 23:14, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > David, > > > > In relation to art I believe the term "symbolic" may be productively > > related to motive in addition to sign. It seems to me that the > > appreciation of motive in art is "non-signed", i.e. not a discrete > > demarcation used to coordinate action. So to construe "non-symbolic" as > > different from the developed form of "higher appreciation of art" may be > > problematic if you're taking symbolic to mean sign. > > > > I can elaborate if this isn't clear. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 4 June 2014 23:04, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > > I've been reading a lot about the work of Otto Neurath, who is > mentioned > > > briefly by Vygotsky in the context of his discussion of "rudimentary > > > functions" (e.g. Rock, Paper, Scissors in making decisions). He was > > > apparently involved in the Munich soviet, briefly imprisoned, then a > city > > > official in "Red Vienna", where he seems to have become more interested > > in > > > museum curating than anything else. His big dream was to design > something > > > called the "Vienna Method" which later became "Isotype", the > > "International > > > System of Typographical Education" that forms the basis of most of our > > > translinguistic street signs and danger instructions today. The idea > was > > to > > > make Vienna's museum's accessible to foreigners, children, and other > > > illiterates. With the Anschluss, Neurath and his wife took refuge in > > > Rotterdam, where she died. He then fled to England in an open boat with > > the > > > woman who was to become his third wife and co-designer (and they were > > > immediately separated and interned as enemy aliens upon their > arrival!). > > It > > > was apparently during the channel crossing that he came up with the > > > quotation he is most remembered for, "We are like sailors who must > > rebuild > > > their ship on the open sea, never able to dismantle it in dry-dock and > to > > > reconstruct it there out of the best materials.? > > > > > > It's a pretty good description of the way Isotype works--the system is > > okay > > > for giving you here and now, but it has to convey negation and > > > conditionality through red circles and triangles, which are only mean > > that > > > if you already know that they do. It seems to me that Neurath is > > > essentially pursuing the same problem as Rolf, in exactly the same > > > context--how do you get children to go from non-symbolic appreciations > of > > > art to higher sorts? And it seems to me that intrinsically linguistic > > > systems, like negation and conditionality, are key. > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > On 30 May 2014 00:13, Rolf Steier > wrote: > > > > > > > David and Ed, I'm going to think about this a little more but first > > thank > > > > you for these thoughtful responses, > > > > rolf > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > > > > > > > > > Rolf > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for giving me an opportunity to think more about > > mimesis. > > > > > Some rambling follows: > > > > > > > > > > Gebauer and Wulf in Memesis (around p315 there is a summary of > > > much > > > > > of what I am paraphrasing/interpreting) suggest that mimesis > concerns > > > the > > > > > making [I think here about your conversation with Huw about > > > 'discovery' > > > > > and 'making'] of symbolic worlds with, for instance, gesture, Such > > > worlds > > > > > have an existence of their own; i.e. they can be understood from > > within > > > > in > > > > > their own terms. These symbolic worlds are transformations of a > prior > > > > world > > > > > (the world of 'Others') into the world of 'I/we.' Mimesis is > > realized, > > > > in > > > > > essence, as a dialogic activity (I don't think this necessarily > > > excludes > > > > > narration, but I could be wrong) taken by participants, a deed or > > > doing. > > > > In > > > > > this frame Mimetic Gesturing is one way of transforming the > 'Other'; > > > > > however depiction (as distinct from Mimetic Gesturing) seems > another. > > > > > > > > > > So, perhaps (and this is complete speculation) the girls have > > > > > purposively intertwined their depiction of the body of the figure > in > > > the > > > > > work with its title to produce/make, in their eyes, a 'standalone' > > > > > dialogical event (or symbolic world). Perhaps, the gesturing is for > > the > > > > > self and/or friend (I mean I/we). In any case, in this framing the > > > > > transformation has its roots in the object of representation and is > > > > > realized in the gesture and its uptake by the recipient. So your > > > > questions > > > > > below are critical. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this makes some sort of sense as I am still thinking > about > > > > > mimesis and depiction. > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 4:24 PM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > Thank you for asking this because I had been reflecting some > after > > > > > sending the previous email and thought this topic might need more > > > > > discussion. I view mimesis as one form of gestural depiction. > Streeck > > > > > defines Mimetic Gesturing as ?the performance of gestures to depict > > > > > physical acts or behavior? (p 144 of Gesturecraft). > > > > > > > > > > > > I absolutely agree that posing with an artwork can be interpreted > > as > > > > > mimesis. Where this becomes more complex (and I think > interesting!) - > > > Is > > > > > when we ask what it is that is being depicted? If we use Episode 1 > > from > > > > the > > > > > article (Figure 6 on p160) - it might be that the girls are > depicting > > > the > > > > > body of the figure in the work. Another interpretation could be > that > > > they > > > > > are depicting the painting itself (with the implication that they > are > > > > > acknowledging the intentionality of the artist in forming her own > > > > > depiction). I believe that at some point in this interaction, the > > girls > > > > are > > > > > implicitly acknowledging the intentionality of the artist because > the > > > > girl > > > > > on the left incorporates the title of the work (Four Artists) into > > her > > > > > interpretation. I chose to use the term ?posing gesture? as a form > of > > > > > gestural depiction that is distinct from mimesis. I think that > > > > > relationships between the artist, figure, artwork, and visitors are > > > > complex > > > > > and that some aspect of these relationships might be lost if we > > > interpret > > > > > it only as a gesture ?depicting a physical act.? There is also the > > > issue > > > > of > > > > > who the gesture is for (the self, the friend, or both). Perhaps > this > > > > > contradicts my previous email a little, but thank you for asking me > > to > > > > > reflect on it again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed - what do you think? Maybe there is a broader question here > > about > > > > the > > > > > object of representation.. what a gesture is of? and who it is for? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Ed Wall > wrote: > > > > > > Rolf > > > > > > > > > > > > If you would, could you say more why you think 'depiction' > > > rather > > > > > than 'mimesis' better captures the dialogic relationship between > the > > > > > participants. An example from your paper would be helpful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Wall > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 27, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Rolf Steier wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello David, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your comments and for sharing your book as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You noted that you found the idea of young people posing for > > > Flickr a > > > > > > > little depressing - and I can certainly understand this. Not to > > add > > > > to > > > > > this > > > > > > > depression, but remember that few young people even visit > museums > > > at > > > > > all > > > > > > > outside of school visits! I don?t think that ?flickr? was a > > > > > particularly > > > > > > > large motivator in the end. The most surprising finding that > led > > to > > > > > this > > > > > > > study was that visitors ?pose? naturally. Many many people when > > > > > approaching > > > > > > > Munch?s ?The Scream? would bring their hands to their faces to > > > > > ?scream? as > > > > > > > a part of normal museum practice. I think the exciting thing is > > > > > building > > > > > > > off of this natural tendency to create richer engagements and > > > > > conversations > > > > > > > with and about the art- Not to replace interactions with the > > works > > > > with > > > > > > > photo taking activities. Although it is also interesting to see > > > what > > > > > > > expectations youth bring to these experiences. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You also provided a few questions that I wanted to follow up > on. > > > You > > > > > > > mention a distinction between ?mimesis? and ?depiction? that I > > > think > > > > is > > > > > > > really interesting. I actually spent a great deal of time > > debating > > > > the > > > > > > > appropriate concept to use to describe these activities and I > > think > > > > > both > > > > > > > are appropriate and share subtle distinctions. I agree that > > > ?mimesis? > > > > > > > implies a dialogic relationship between the participant and the > > > > > artwork - > > > > > > > but I would also argue that ?depiction? better captures the > > > dialogic > > > > > > > relationship between the participants. I used the concept of > > > > depiction > > > > > to > > > > > > > be consistent with Streeck?s framework. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You also mention that assuming gestures are either iconic or > > > deictic > > > > > > > suggests that artwork does not have ideal content? Maybe you > can > > > > > elaborate > > > > > > > on what you mean by ideal content? I hope that I didn?t give > the > > > > > impression > > > > > > > that I feel visitor gestures are limited to these types (A goal > > of > > > > this > > > > > > > article was to introduce posing as a unique gestural activity). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:18 AM, David Kellogg < > > > > dkellogg60@gmail.com > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I think I'd like to try to tie the discussion of Rolf Steier's > > > > > intriguing > > > > > > >> article to a book we published in January here in Korea, a > book > > > > which > > > > > is > > > > > > >> also related to the discussion of Vygotsky, the Imagination, > and > > > > > > >> Creativity. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Since we are discussing posing and artworks, let me provide > the > > > > cover > > > > > of > > > > > > >> our book, a painting by the Russian children's portraitist > > Nikolai > > > > > > >> Bogdanov-Belsky. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ISBN=8994445536 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The book contains three very different works by Vygotsky on > > > > > creativity and > > > > > > >> imagination, which we translated into Korean: his "popular > > > science" > > > > > account > > > > > > >> ("Imagination and Creativity in the Child", which was > published > > in > > > > > JREEP in > > > > > > >> 2004), "Imagination and Creativity in Adolescence", which was > > > > > published in > > > > > > >> "Pedology of the Adolescent" and which can be found in the > > > Vygotsky > > > > > Reader > > > > > > >> (Blackwell, 1994) and "Imagination and its Development in > > > > Childhood", > > > > > part > > > > > > >> of which appears in Volume One of the English Collected Works. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> But the cover painting really says it all in gesture: Vygotsky > > > > > asks--and > > > > > > >> answers--the question of why one form of creativity after > > another > > > is > > > > > > >> exhausted, when the child's imagination is still developing > > > > > vigorously. The > > > > > > >> child poses. Then, at a certain point, the child becomes > > > > > disillusioned with > > > > > > >> mere posing and becomes interested in drawing. The child > draws. > > > > Then, > > > > > at a > > > > > > >> certain point (usually right when the child appears to be > making > > > > real > > > > > > >> progress), the child becomes disillusioned with drawing and > > takes > > > up > > > > > > >> writing. The child writes. Then, at a certain point (usually, > as > > > > > captured > > > > > > >> by Bogdanov-Belsky, right when the child begins to learn how > to > > > > write > > > > > > >> compositions in school) the child becomes disillusioned. The > now > > > > > powerless > > > > > > >> and disillusioned daydream, which we extravagantly call > > > > > "imagination", is > > > > > > >> all that is left. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I liked the article. I loved the idea that recreating a > painting > > > as > > > > a > > > > > > >> "tableau vivant" includes both an external plane (dialogue) > and > > > and > > > > > > >> internal one (narrative). I thought the ability of the author > to > > > > > recover a > > > > > > >> kind of underlying structure of pose, comparison, focus, and > > > > > adjustment > > > > > > >> from the careful analysis of two incidents was actually very > > > > > convincing and > > > > > > >> shows the power of a theoretically informed analysis over a > > > > > statistically > > > > > > >> equipped but merely empirical one. I also find this underlying > > > > > structure > > > > > > >> far more helpful than the usual vague talk about > extra-corporeal > > > > > artistic > > > > > > >> experience and reflection that we get, even in the work of > > > Bakhtin. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> But I confess, I found the idea that children spend their days > > in > > > > > museums > > > > > > >> recreating paintings with their bodies for a Flickr account a > > > little > > > > > > >> depressing. I wonder if there is any evidence that the evident > > > > > > >> understanding that emerges leads to any actual creativity or > > even > > > > any > > > > > > >> posing outside the museum. Perhaps, if it doesn't, that is a > > good > > > > > thing: > > > > > > >> Munch, in addition to being a smoker, was a notorious > > depressive. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Some specific questions: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> a) On p. 149, the author says that "meaning is embedded in the > > > > word". > > > > > > >> Doesn't this imply a conduit metaphor? Isn't it more > likely--on > > > the > > > > > basis > > > > > > >> of the author's own argument--that the way in which words > carry > > > > > cultural > > > > > > >> meaning is by forcing the hearer to re-enact the meaning > making > > > > > itself? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> b) On p. 151, the author appears to confuse the concept of > > > metaphor > > > > > with > > > > > > >> Lakoff and Johnson's "conceptual metaphor". Also, I can't see > > how > > > > > children > > > > > > >> can develop concepts from metaphors, because it seems to me > that > > > in > > > > > order > > > > > > >> to have a metaphor you need a concept first. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> c) On p. 152: if we assume that visitor gestures are either > > iconic > > > > or > > > > > > >> deictic, doesn't that suggest that artwork has no ideal > content > > at > > > > > all? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> d) On p. 152, the bottom: isn't "depiction" more of a > NARRATIVE > > > > > stance, > > > > > > >> while mimesis is a more DIALOGIC one because it places us > inside > > > the > > > > > > >> artwork? Just a thought. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I remember taking part in an art exhibition in my wife's > > hometown > > > of > > > > > Xi'an > > > > > > >> in China twenty years ago where we left a huge canvas by the > > exit > > > > and > > > > > > >> invited all the viewers to try to paint something. It was at a > > big > > > > > > >> university and some of engineering students tried gamely, > until > > > the > > > > > art > > > > > > >> students came along and painted everything black. > Interestingly, > > > > > though, > > > > > > >> neither the engineering students nor the art students tried to > > > > > reproduce > > > > > > >> any of the artworks--they were more interested in looking out > > the > > > > > window > > > > > > >> than in looking back at the exhibition. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> David Kellogg > > > > > > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On 23 May 2014 01:09, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < > > > j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca > > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> Dear XMCA, > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Rolf Steier is now on XMCA, and his article "Posing the > > question" > > > > is > > > > > open > > > > > > >>> on the T and F website: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/.U3zs4Sjsq24 > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Just click on the green button to the right side of the > > article. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> There is loads to talk about, and one question that comes to > > mind > > > > is > > > > > in > > > > > > >>> relation to the museum installation as a design experiment. > In > > > what > > > > > sense > > > > > > >>> is it a design experiment? What does it make visible? How is > > > > learning > > > > > > >>> shaped by access to this experience in a museum? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> More questions? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Best - jen > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Jun 5 16:41:56 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 17:41:56 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture and emotion In-Reply-To: <269764C1-DD21-4E62-8226-3BF1DF6D4378@ithaca.edu> References: <87b3d46cba9b4dceaace4462e38f80c3@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <269764C1-DD21-4E62-8226-3BF1DF6D4378@ithaca.edu> Message-ID: Peter, Thanks for this. Reminds me lots of Volosinov's argument about Freudianism and how at times of crises, the bourgeosie tend to revert to discourses of "naturalism" (Prinz's "biocentrism"). AS IF the social order IS the natural order. Seems like we are at such a time again... -greg On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Cathrene Connery wrote: > Thanks, Peter! > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > Associate Professor of Education > Ithaca College > Department of Education > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > 953 Danby Road > Ithaca, New York 14850 > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > On Jun 5, 2014, at 12:47 PM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > > > http://mag.uchicago.edu/arts-humanities/human-nurture > > > > Some might find this article on Jesse Prinz interesting. Without any > apparent connection to the sorts of people referenced by xmca members, he > makes an argument on the cultural basis of emotions, with attention to the > arts. The article also includes attention to his critics, who are more > oriented to biology. It might make a nice introductory reading for students > before reading scholarly work on an enduring controversy, if not within > xmca between xmca and biologically oriented researchers. > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Fri Jun 6 06:51:34 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 06:51:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: culture and emotion In-Reply-To: <269764C1-DD21-4E62-8226-3BF1DF6D4378@ithaca.edu> References: <87b3d46cba9b4dceaace4462e38f80c3@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <269764C1-DD21-4E62-8226-3BF1DF6D4378@ithaca.edu> Message-ID: <7342639B-5D02-4A3A-B957-C58133368987@roadrunner.com> How many different discrete emotions are humans capable of experiencing? What are they? Does our language hold any clue? Joseph Gilbert On Jun 5, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Cathrene Connery wrote: > Thanks, Peter! > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > Associate Professor of Education > Ithaca College > Department of Education > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > 953 Danby Road > Ithaca, New York 14850 > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > On Jun 5, 2014, at 12:47 PM, "Peter Smagorinsky" wrote: > >> http://mag.uchicago.edu/arts-humanities/human-nurture >> >> Some might find this article on Jesse Prinz interesting. Without any apparent connection to the sorts of people referenced by xmca members, he makes an argument on the cultural basis of emotions, with attention to the arts. The article also includes attention to his critics, who are more oriented to biology. It might make a nice introductory reading for students before reading scholarly work on an enduring controversy, if not within xmca between xmca and biologically oriented researchers. > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 6 14:30:48 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 06:30:48 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collective coordination of informal translations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw (or anyone else interested): Since early 2007 our group (which varies between four and eight people) has been translating everything Vygotsky ever wrote that has been published in Russian into the Korean language. We're pretty slow, because only two of us know any Russian at all, and what we do has to be checked against various machine translations and with the Russian professors at my school. We do about fifteen paragraphs a week, and I expect to be doing this for the rest of my life (I'm fifty five years old). Because my Korean is so poor, we produce English texts as a by-product--for discussion. We also produce "boxes" every two or three paragraphs to try to help the readers (mostly public school teachers in South Korea) understand the text better. Four volumes have already been published in Korea, with a fifth volume coming out this month. We are meeting today (in a few hours, actually) to proof the galleys. But...we need somebody who has the patience to edit the English into something usable by other xmca people, or maybe even posted on Anton Yasnitsky's Collected Works project, if that is still on. That means cutting the transitional translations and the Korean final product, eliminating boxes that are mostly concerned with aspects of teaching in Korean public schools, and tidying up my awful English prose. Russian is not strictly necessary, although I can easily imagine that we've made a mistake or two along the way. Martin did a heroic job with (most of) Thinking and Speech, and I have tried to do it myself a few times, but I find that I am a very poor editor of my own work; I form a very clear idea of what the text says in my own mind and I don't seem to be able to get the words on the page to say it any more. Fortunately, my collaborators can usually step in at this point and put it all in Korean for me--but that means that the English translation remains a partial, transitional structure, like a wing of English text around which Russian and Korean word meanings flow and lift. So...if you are really willing, I could send you some of the files. Here's what we've got so far. a) Thinking and Speech b) Tool and Sign c) History of the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions d) Imagination and Creativity in the Child e) Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent f) Creativity and its Development in Childhood g) Lectures on Pedology (Lectures One, Two, and Three Complete). Warning--these files are very long. We estimate the Lectures on Pedology (seven lectures) will be around eight hundred pages when complete, and this is one of the shorter books. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 5 June 2014 22:40, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Just wondering out loud a little: is anyone aware of collective efforts to > share informal efforts at translation, i.e. bits and pieces of larger texts > that have not made it through to official publications? > > I suspect once I get through the English writings pertaining to P. > Zinchenko, I may need to try and find time to learn some Russian. > > Best, > Huw > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Jun 6 15:02:24 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 15:02:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collective coordination of informal translations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Its a huge undertaking, David. If there is some way to break it into modest sized chunks (modest =<800) perhaps xmaophiles could make a contribution en mass, although the product would still require a smoothing hand at the end. mike On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw (or anyone else interested): > > Since early 2007 our group (which varies between four and eight people) has > been translating everything Vygotsky ever wrote that has been published in > Russian into the Korean language. We're pretty slow, because only two of us > know any Russian at all, and what we do has to be checked against various > machine translations and with the Russian professors at my school. We do > about fifteen paragraphs a week, and I expect to be doing this for the rest > of my life (I'm fifty five years old). > > Because my Korean is so poor, we produce English texts as a by-product--for > discussion. We also produce "boxes" every two or three paragraphs to try to > help the readers (mostly public school teachers in South Korea) understand > the text better. Four volumes have already been published in Korea, with a > fifth volume coming out this month. We are meeting today (in a few hours, > actually) to proof the galleys. > > But...we need somebody who has the patience to edit the English into > something usable by other xmca people, or maybe even posted on Anton > Yasnitsky's Collected Works project, if that is still on. That means > cutting the transitional translations and the Korean final > product, eliminating boxes that are mostly concerned with aspects of > teaching in Korean public schools, and tidying up my awful English prose. > Russian is not strictly necessary, although I can easily imagine that we've > made a mistake or two along the way. > > Martin did a heroic job with (most of) Thinking and Speech, and I have > tried to do it myself a few times, but I find that I am a very poor editor > of my own work; I form a very clear idea of what the text says in my own > mind and I don't seem to be able to get the words on the page to say it any > more. Fortunately, my collaborators can usually step in at this point and > put it all in Korean for me--but that means that the English translation > remains a partial, transitional structure, like a wing of English text > around which Russian and Korean word meanings flow and lift. > > So...if you are really willing, I could send you some of the files. Here's > what we've got so far. > > a) Thinking and Speech > b) Tool and Sign > c) History of the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions > d) Imagination and Creativity in the Child > e) Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent > f) Creativity and its Development in Childhood > g) Lectures on Pedology (Lectures One, Two, and Three Complete). > > Warning--these files are very long. We estimate the Lectures on Pedology > (seven lectures) will be around eight hundred pages when complete, and this > is one of the shorter books. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 5 June 2014 22:40, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > Just wondering out loud a little: is anyone aware of collective efforts > to > > share informal efforts at translation, i.e. bits and pieces of larger > texts > > that have not made it through to official publications? > > > > I suspect once I get through the English writings pertaining to P. > > Zinchenko, I may need to try and find time to learn some Russian. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jun 6 18:22:17 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 02:22:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collective coordination of informal translations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's an awesome project, David. Thank you for the invitation. If you want to get more hands on board in a way which isn't going to have further problems for you in coordinating it, I could look into setting something up online for you to allow people to make micro edits etc (like distributed software development, or Project Gutenberg). Perhaps something like this is already available online. I guess the problem with many contributors is going to be consistency and register/voice, but there could be many other benefits stemming from distributed edits/checking. I am expecting to be pretty busy here unless things go pear-shaped. The sustained readings I get engaged in are, in all likelihood, going to be curtailed to specific texts informing the mediation & memory project I am working on (PhD), hence referencing Zinchenko, Davydov etc. I'll let you know if I get the time to go through some major texts though... Best, Huw On 6 June 2014 22:30, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw (or anyone else interested): > > Since early 2007 our group (which varies between four and eight people) has > been translating everything Vygotsky ever wrote that has been published in > Russian into the Korean language. We're pretty slow, because only two of us > know any Russian at all, and what we do has to be checked against various > machine translations and with the Russian professors at my school. We do > about fifteen paragraphs a week, and I expect to be doing this for the rest > of my life (I'm fifty five years old). > > Because my Korean is so poor, we produce English texts as a by-product--for > discussion. We also produce "boxes" every two or three paragraphs to try to > help the readers (mostly public school teachers in South Korea) understand > the text better. Four volumes have already been published in Korea, with a > fifth volume coming out this month. We are meeting today (in a few hours, > actually) to proof the galleys. > > But...we need somebody who has the patience to edit the English into > something usable by other xmca people, or maybe even posted on Anton > Yasnitsky's Collected Works project, if that is still on. That means > cutting the transitional translations and the Korean final > product, eliminating boxes that are mostly concerned with aspects of > teaching in Korean public schools, and tidying up my awful English prose. > Russian is not strictly necessary, although I can easily imagine that we've > made a mistake or two along the way. > > Martin did a heroic job with (most of) Thinking and Speech, and I have > tried to do it myself a few times, but I find that I am a very poor editor > of my own work; I form a very clear idea of what the text says in my own > mind and I don't seem to be able to get the words on the page to say it any > more. Fortunately, my collaborators can usually step in at this point and > put it all in Korean for me--but that means that the English translation > remains a partial, transitional structure, like a wing of English text > around which Russian and Korean word meanings flow and lift. > > So...if you are really willing, I could send you some of the files. Here's > what we've got so far. > > a) Thinking and Speech > b) Tool and Sign > c) History of the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions > d) Imagination and Creativity in the Child > e) Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent > f) Creativity and its Development in Childhood > g) Lectures on Pedology (Lectures One, Two, and Three Complete). > > Warning--these files are very long. We estimate the Lectures on Pedology > (seven lectures) will be around eight hundred pages when complete, and this > is one of the shorter books. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 5 June 2014 22:40, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > Just wondering out loud a little: is anyone aware of collective efforts > to > > share informal efforts at translation, i.e. bits and pieces of larger > texts > > that have not made it through to official publications? > > > > I suspect once I get through the English writings pertaining to P. > > Zinchenko, I may need to try and find time to learn some Russian. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Jun 6 20:09:07 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 20:09:07 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collective coordination of informal translations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like a useful tool for David's purpose exists, Huw, that would make distributed collaboration easIER. mike On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > That's an awesome project, David. Thank you for the invitation. > > If you want to get more hands on board in a way which isn't going to have > further problems for you in coordinating it, I could look into setting > something up online for you to allow people to make micro edits etc (like > distributed software development, or Project Gutenberg). Perhaps something > like this is already available online. I guess the problem with many > contributors is going to be consistency and register/voice, but there could > be many other benefits stemming from distributed edits/checking. > > I am expecting to be pretty busy here unless things go pear-shaped. The > sustained readings I get engaged in are, in all likelihood, going to be > curtailed to specific texts informing the mediation & memory project I am > working on (PhD), hence referencing Zinchenko, Davydov etc. > > I'll let you know if I get the time to go through some major texts > though... > > Best, > Huw > > > On 6 June 2014 22:30, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Huw (or anyone else interested): > > > > Since early 2007 our group (which varies between four and eight people) > has > > been translating everything Vygotsky ever wrote that has been published > in > > Russian into the Korean language. We're pretty slow, because only two of > us > > know any Russian at all, and what we do has to be checked against various > > machine translations and with the Russian professors at my school. We do > > about fifteen paragraphs a week, and I expect to be doing this for the > rest > > of my life (I'm fifty five years old). > > > > Because my Korean is so poor, we produce English texts as a > by-product--for > > discussion. We also produce "boxes" every two or three paragraphs to try > to > > help the readers (mostly public school teachers in South Korea) > understand > > the text better. Four volumes have already been published in Korea, with > a > > fifth volume coming out this month. We are meeting today (in a few hours, > > actually) to proof the galleys. > > > > But...we need somebody who has the patience to edit the English into > > something usable by other xmca people, or maybe even posted on Anton > > Yasnitsky's Collected Works project, if that is still on. That means > > cutting the transitional translations and the Korean final > > product, eliminating boxes that are mostly concerned with aspects of > > teaching in Korean public schools, and tidying up my awful English prose. > > Russian is not strictly necessary, although I can easily imagine that > we've > > made a mistake or two along the way. > > > > Martin did a heroic job with (most of) Thinking and Speech, and I have > > tried to do it myself a few times, but I find that I am a very poor > editor > > of my own work; I form a very clear idea of what the text says in my own > > mind and I don't seem to be able to get the words on the page to say it > any > > more. Fortunately, my collaborators can usually step in at this point and > > put it all in Korean for me--but that means that the English translation > > remains a partial, transitional structure, like a wing of English text > > around which Russian and Korean word meanings flow and lift. > > > > So...if you are really willing, I could send you some of the files. > Here's > > what we've got so far. > > > > a) Thinking and Speech > > b) Tool and Sign > > c) History of the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions > > d) Imagination and Creativity in the Child > > e) Imagination and Creativity in the Adolescent > > f) Creativity and its Development in Childhood > > g) Lectures on Pedology (Lectures One, Two, and Three Complete). > > > > Warning--these files are very long. We estimate the Lectures on Pedology > > (seven lectures) will be around eight hundred pages when complete, and > this > > is one of the shorter books. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > On 5 June 2014 22:40, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > > Just wondering out loud a little: is anyone aware of collective efforts > > to > > > share informal efforts at translation, i.e. bits and pieces of larger > > texts > > > that have not made it through to official publications? > > > > > > I suspect once I get through the English writings pertaining to P. > > > Zinchenko, I may need to try and find time to learn some Russian. > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > From l.woods@iicedu.org Sat Jun 7 11:25:49 2014 From: l.woods@iicedu.org (L inda Woods) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 19:25:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Ireland International Conference on Education (IICE-2014): Call for Submissions! Message-ID: <1246395907.118493.1402165550018.open-xchange@oxbaltgw01.schlund.de> Apologies for cross-postings. Kindly email this call for papers to your colleagues, faculty members and postgraduate students. Call for Papers, Extended Abstracts, Posters, Tutorials and Workshops! ******************************************************************* Ireland International Conference on Education (IICE-2014) October 27-29 Dublin, Ireland www.iicedu.org ******************************************************************* The IICE is an international refereed conference dedicated to the advancement of the theory and practices in education. The IICE promotes collaborative excellence between academicians and professionals from Education. The aim of IICE is to provide an opportunity for academicians and professionals from various educational fields with cross-disciplinary interests to bridge the knowledge gap, promote research esteem and the evolution of pedagogy. The IICE 2014 invites research papers that encompass conceptual analysis, design implementation and performance evaluation. All the accepted papers will appear in the proceedings and modified version of selected papers will be published in special issues peer reviewed journals. The topics in IICE-2014 include but are not confined to the following areas: *Academic Advising and Counselling *Art Education *Adult Education *APD/Listening and Acoustics in Education Environment *Business Education *Counsellor Education *Curriculum, Research and Development *Competitive Skills *Continuing Education *Distance Education *Early Childhood Education *Educational Administration *Educational Foundations *Educational Psychology *Educational Technology *Education Policy and Leadership *Elementary Education *E-Learning *E-Manufacturing *ESL/TESL *E-Society *Geographical Education *Geographic information systems *Health Education *Higher Education *History *Home Education *Human Computer Interaction *Human Resource Development *Indigenous Education *ICT Education *Internet technologies *Imaginative Education *Kinesiology & Leisure Science *K12 *Language Education *Mathematics Education *Mobile Applications *Multi-Virtual Environment *Music Education *Pedagogy *Physical Education (PE) *Reading Education *Writing Education *Religion and Education Studies *Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) *Rural Education *Science Education *Secondary Education *Second life Educators *Social Studies Education *Special Education *Student Affairs *Teacher Education *Cross-disciplinary areas of Education *Ubiquitous Computing *Virtual Reality *Wireless applications *Other Areas of Education - You can submit your research paper at http://www.iicedu.org/IICE-2014%20April/Paper%20Submission.html or email it to papers-2014@iicedu.org Important Dates: *Extended Abstract (Work in Progress) Submission Date: June 01, 2014 *Notification of Extended Abstract (Work in Progress) Acceptance/Rejection: June 20, 2014 *Research Paper, Student Paper, Case Study, Report Submission Date: June 20, 2014 *Notification of Research Paper, Student Paper, Case Study, Report Acceptance/Rejection: July 10, 2014 *Proposal for Workshops Submission Date: June 10, 2014 *Notification of Workshop Acceptance/Rejection: June 30, 2014 *Posters Proposal Submission Date: June 20, 2014 *Notification of Posters Acceptance/Rejection: July 01, 2014 *Camera Ready Paper Due: August 15, 2014 *Early Bird Registration (Authors and Participants): May 31, 2014 - August 30, 2014 *Late Bird Registration Deadline (Authors only): August 31, 2014 - September 20, 2014 *Late Bird Registration Deadline (Participants only): August 31, 2014 - October 20, 2014 *Conference Dates: October 27-29, 2014 For further information please visit IICE-2014 at www.iicedu.org From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Jun 13 00:32:40 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 00:32:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] The tradition of BILDUNG Message-ID: Dewey wrote a passage in "Democracy and Education" which stated: "If we are willing to conceive education as the process of *forming* fundamental dispositions, intellectual and emotional, toward nature and fellow-men, philosophy may even be defined AS THE GENERAL THEORY OF EDUCATION" [emphasis in original] (p.338) James Garrison, in the article "Identifying Traces of Hegelian BILDUNG in Dewey's Philosophical System" has this to say concerning the above quote by Dewey: "It is however, easy to interpret this statement if we think of philosophy and education as BILDUNG. Dispositions are habits or attitudes that are formed [BILD] primarily by participating in the norms, beliefs, and values of institutionalized social practices" [page 3] Dewey wrote passionately about *education THROUGH life* in contrast to the value of *education FOR life* The Greek term *dia* in *dialogue* means *through*. Therefore, dialogue is expression THROUGH logos [word]. The terms *bild* [form] within *bildung* and the term *dia* [through] within dialogue are intimately related concepts that express a *tradition* [and a genre] which links Hegel's and Vygotsky's and Dewey's projects in a bildung tradition which shares a*resemblance* or *affinity* within the bildung tradition with roots in neo-humanist understandings. Kozulin, I believe is writing within this spirit of *bildung* as incarnating *spirit* THROUGH [dia] life. If we this summer read chapters four [Tool and Symbol in Human Development] and five [Thought and Language] of Kozulin's book. Returning to James Garrison, He wrote, "We could describe this whole process of endless learning and growth as dialectic, a hermeneutic circle, or, my preference, a trans-action. We could also call what I have been describing is a philosophy of BILDUNG. My paper briefly examines some aspects of the architectonic of Dewey's philosophy as constituents of a philosophy of BILDUNG" [page 2] The article can be found at this address: http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/program.html Larry Purss From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Jun 13 09:54:21 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 09:54:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Larry--- Very interesting connections for sure. When you start to parse dialogue as "through the word" it makes a clear connection with words as mediators, and the emphasis on trans-action instead of inter-action also seems central in this regard. mike On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Dewey wrote a passage in "Democracy and Education" which stated: > "If we are willing to conceive education as the process of *forming* > fundamental dispositions, intellectual and emotional, toward nature and > fellow-men, philosophy may even be defined AS THE GENERAL THEORY OF > EDUCATION" [emphasis in original] (p.338) > > James Garrison, in the article "Identifying Traces of Hegelian BILDUNG in > Dewey's Philosophical System" has this to say concerning the above quote by > Dewey: > > "It is however, easy to interpret this statement if we think of philosophy > and education as BILDUNG. Dispositions are habits or attitudes that are > formed [BILD] primarily by participating in the norms, beliefs, and values > of institutionalized social practices" [page 3] > > Dewey wrote passionately about *education THROUGH life* in contrast to the > value of *education FOR life* > The Greek term *dia* in *dialogue* means *through*. Therefore, dialogue is > expression THROUGH logos [word]. > > The terms *bild* [form] within *bildung* and the term *dia* [through] > within dialogue are intimately related concepts that express a *tradition* > [and a genre] which links Hegel's and Vygotsky's and Dewey's projects in a > bildung tradition which shares a*resemblance* or *affinity* within the > bildung tradition with roots in neo-humanist understandings. > > Kozulin, I believe is writing within this spirit of *bildung* as > incarnating *spirit* THROUGH [dia] life. > If we this summer read chapters four [Tool and Symbol in Human > Development] and five [Thought and Language] of Kozulin's book. > > Returning to James Garrison, He wrote, > > "We could describe this whole process of endless learning and growth as > dialectic, a hermeneutic circle, or, my preference, a trans-action. We > could also call what I have been describing is a philosophy of BILDUNG. My > paper briefly examines some aspects of the architectonic of Dewey's > philosophy as constituents of a philosophy of BILDUNG" [page 2] > > The article can be found at this address: > > http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/program.html > > Larry Purss > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Jun 14 08:55:01 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:55:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, A further commentary on Dewey's notion of *trans-action* linking with *bildung* [development through cultivation]. If *root metaphors* are symbolic ways of mediating our worlds, I want to share the way Tom Burke *reads* [images] Dewey's transactional theory. He uses the metaphor [HERMENEUTIC HELIX]. This is my way of connecting Dewey to Kozulin's exploration of a neo-humanist exploration of cultural-historical hermeneutical metaphors. Tom Burke's root metaphor can be found on page 822 in an article by James Garrison titled "Dewey on Metaphysics, Meaning Making, and Maps" in the journal *Transactions of the Charles S Peirce Society: A Journal in American Philosophy, Volume 41, number 4, Fall 2005, pp. 818-844". THIS metaphor [hermeneutical helix] I find generative as exploring the historical continuity of the metaphor of the *developmental spiral* as an extension of the *hermeneutical circle* that includes going *higher* and *deeper* in our explorations. Tom Burke uses the metaphor of *hermeneutic helix* to link together Dewey's understanding of two distinct TYPES of propositions which coil around each other in a TRANSACTIONAL SPIRAL. The first type [generic*] as general propositions which Dewey refers "to the factual or existential material which determines the final SUBJECT of judgement". The second, or "universal" TYPE of propositions refers to what Dewey explains is "ideational material, the conceptual meanings, which determine the PREDICATE of final judgement". Dewey, in other words, says: "there are the propositions having the relation which constitutes [existential] INFERENCE, AND the propositions having the serial relation which constitutes [symbolic] reasoning or DISCOURSE. Dewey is emphasizing that the "very heart of scientific inquiry is thus to maintain the distinction AND the functional relation [correspondence] of the two logical types of propositions" James Garrison makes this summary statement: "Universal and generic propositions constitute coordinated SUBFUNCTIONS of a SINGLE organic trans-action. .... Traditional logical theory commits the philosophic fallacy by ASSUMING subject terms (selected traits, objects, etc.) given which CONFINES judgements to the act of predication. Dewey's theory holds that 'the subject-matters of subject AND predicate are DETERMINED in correspondence WITH EACH OTHER in and by the process of *thought* that IS, inquiry.' In his [Dewey's] constructivist account, existential subjects and conceptual predicates EMERGE AND UNDERGO TRANSFORMATION [bildung] THROUGH [dia] functional correspondence. Hence, a new map may alter the meaning of the territory in ways that eventually TRANSFORMS its traits. Because traditional logic mistakenly assumes its subject terms GIVEN Dewey clarifies what it means to be *given*" This extended quote by James Garrison exploring the relation of subject AND concept [hermeneutical helix] within Dewey's theory uses a root metaphor which continues through the centuries as *dia* [dialectic, dialogical] Kozulin is returning to THIS hermeneutical metaphor as was Dewey. Bildung [as cultivation THROUGH education] forming dispositions [Dewey's habits] seems to also be implicated. I apologize if this fragment is out of context. I recommend reading James Garrison' article to acquire the context from which I extracted the root metaphor of the hermeneutical helix. Larry On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 9:54 AM, mike cole wrote: > Thanks Larry--- Very interesting connections for sure. When you start to > parse dialogue as "through the word" it makes a clear connection with words > as mediators, and the emphasis on trans-action instead of inter-action also > seems central in this regard. > mike > > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > Dewey wrote a passage in "Democracy and Education" which stated: > > "If we are willing to conceive education as the process of *forming* > > fundamental dispositions, intellectual and emotional, toward nature and > > fellow-men, philosophy may even be defined AS THE GENERAL THEORY OF > > EDUCATION" [emphasis in original] (p.338) > > > > James Garrison, in the article "Identifying Traces of Hegelian BILDUNG in > > Dewey's Philosophical System" has this to say concerning the above quote > by > > Dewey: > > > > "It is however, easy to interpret this statement if we think of > philosophy > > and education as BILDUNG. Dispositions are habits or attitudes that are > > formed [BILD] primarily by participating in the norms, beliefs, and > values > > of institutionalized social practices" [page 3] > > > > Dewey wrote passionately about *education THROUGH life* in contrast to > the > > value of *education FOR life* > > The Greek term *dia* in *dialogue* means *through*. Therefore, dialogue > is > > expression THROUGH logos [word]. > > > > The terms *bild* [form] within *bildung* and the term *dia* [through] > > within dialogue are intimately related concepts that express a > *tradition* > > [and a genre] which links Hegel's and Vygotsky's and Dewey's projects in > a > > bildung tradition which shares a*resemblance* or *affinity* within the > > bildung tradition with roots in neo-humanist understandings. > > > > Kozulin, I believe is writing within this spirit of *bildung* as > > incarnating *spirit* THROUGH [dia] life. > > If we this summer read chapters four [Tool and Symbol in Human > > Development] and five [Thought and Language] of Kozulin's book. > > > > Returning to James Garrison, He wrote, > > > > "We could describe this whole process of endless learning and growth as > > dialectic, a hermeneutic circle, or, my preference, a trans-action. We > > could also call what I have been describing is a philosophy of BILDUNG. > My > > paper briefly examines some aspects of the architectonic of Dewey's > > philosophy as constituents of a philosophy of BILDUNG" [page 2] > > > > The article can be found at this address: > > > > http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/program.html > > > > Larry Purss > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Jun 14 09:48:41 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 09:48:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Appreciating Leigh Star -- Call for Papers for MCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LAST CALL! Thanks to all those who sent in proposals. Topics are shaping up nicely. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: mike cole Date: Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 4:04 PM Subject: Appreciating Leigh Star -- Call for Papers for MCA To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Dear Colleagues, Please consider writing for this proposed issue devoted to the work of Leigh Star. Pass along this call to whatever communities or people you know who might be able to contribute. Let us hear from you. mike on behalf of the editorial board of mca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MCA Call for Papers.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 121670 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140614/eeb362e0/attachment.pdf From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Jun 14 10:13:16 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:13:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB0YI=?= =?utf-8?b?0L7RgNC40Y8g0L/RgdC40YXQvtC70L7Qs9C40LhdIFVwbG9hZGVkIFdo?= =?utf-8?q?at_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number of issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. I am forwarding from Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. mike Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? [image: Ilya Garber] Ilya Garber 10:02am Jun 14 ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? ????????????? ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. Must read. What theory is not.pdf View Post on Facebook ? Edit Email Settings ? Reply to this email to add a comment. From ablunden@mira.net Sat Jun 14 18:30:01 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 11:30:01 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CF719.1000405@mira.net> People use words as they will, but it always seemed to me that *transaction* evokes an *external* relation between two subjects in which something is *exchanged*, whereas *interaction* evokes some modification of the nature of each subject itself rather than the addition or subtraction of some contingency. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Thanks Larry--- Very interesting connections for sure. When you start to > parse dialogue as "through the word" it makes a clear connection with words > as mediators, and the emphasis on trans-action instead of inter-action also > seems central in this regard. > mike > > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > >> Dewey wrote a passage in "Democracy and Education" which stated: >> "If we are willing to conceive education as the process of *forming* >> fundamental dispositions, intellectual and emotional, toward nature and >> fellow-men, philosophy may even be defined AS THE GENERAL THEORY OF >> EDUCATION" [emphasis in original] (p.338) >> >> James Garrison, in the article "Identifying Traces of Hegelian BILDUNG in >> Dewey's Philosophical System" has this to say concerning the above quote by >> Dewey: >> >> "It is however, easy to interpret this statement if we think of philosophy >> and education as BILDUNG. Dispositions are habits or attitudes that are >> formed [BILD] primarily by participating in the norms, beliefs, and values >> of institutionalized social practices" [page 3] >> >> Dewey wrote passionately about *education THROUGH life* in contrast to the >> value of *education FOR life* >> The Greek term *dia* in *dialogue* means *through*. Therefore, dialogue is >> expression THROUGH logos [word]. >> >> The terms *bild* [form] within *bildung* and the term *dia* [through] >> within dialogue are intimately related concepts that express a *tradition* >> [and a genre] which links Hegel's and Vygotsky's and Dewey's projects in a >> bildung tradition which shares a*resemblance* or *affinity* within the >> bildung tradition with roots in neo-humanist understandings. >> >> Kozulin, I believe is writing within this spirit of *bildung* as >> incarnating *spirit* THROUGH [dia] life. >> If we this summer read chapters four [Tool and Symbol in Human >> Development] and five [Thought and Language] of Kozulin's book. >> >> Returning to James Garrison, He wrote, >> >> "We could describe this whole process of endless learning and growth as >> dialectic, a hermeneutic circle, or, my preference, a trans-action. We >> could also call what I have been describing is a philosophy of BILDUNG. My >> paper briefly examines some aspects of the architectonic of Dewey's >> philosophy as constituents of a philosophy of BILDUNG" [page 2] >> >> The article can be found at this address: >> >> http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/program.html >> >> Larry Purss >> >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 01:31:04 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:31:04 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB?= =?utf-8?b?0YLQvtGA0LjRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjQuF0gVXBsb2FkZWQg?= =?utf-8?q?What_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: Mike: This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for anybody who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and Vygotsky's critique of Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the idea that "why" questions and a focus on causality is a hallmark of theory essentially writes off the whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, structuralism and post-structuralism. You might not agree with this line of thought and body of work, but to deny it status as theory seems pointless. I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers who repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. There are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. reviews, pub discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. Or am I being compulsively cynical? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: > I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number of > issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. > I am forwarding from > Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. > mike > > > Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? > < > https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > > > [image: Ilya Garber] > < > https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > > > Ilya > Garber > < > https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > > > 10:02am > Jun 14 > ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? ????????????? > ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. > Must read. > What theory is not.pdf > < > https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is%20not.pdf > > > > View Post on Facebook > < > https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > > > ? Edit Email Settings > < > https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > > > ? Reply to this email to add a comment. > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 13:35:45 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 13:35:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB?= =?utf-8?b?0YLQvtGA0LjRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjQuF0gVXBsb2FkZWQg?= =?utf-8?q?What_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: Hi David-- The reason I passed this paper along is that the following passage from the abstract attracted me and the examples given of the confusions about theory in the text resonated with a lot of writing I have encountered not only in submitted articles, but in graduate student writings up to and including dissertations. I agree with the fictional consensus the authors identify. consensus that references, data, variables, diagrams, and hypotheses are not theory. Despite this consensus, however, authors routinely use these five elements in lieu of theory. I was not advocating their notion of good theory. That is a separate and very important issue and you know full well that I take Dilthey seriously -- as Luria and Vygotsky, in their ways, taught me to do. If there is interest in the group, we could use the article to take our discussion that direction. Seems worthwhile to me. But, I think we have to acknowledge that the same way the authors find sloppy reasoning about theory is to be found routinely in articles and essays by ourselves and our students. So, I guess, I think the paper if useful for there critique of writing practices summed up as what is not a theory (given their version of a causal social science). If it provokes us to understand better what sorts of claims we want to make in the articles we write, and how to be clearer to ourselves, I am for it. mike On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike: > > This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole > idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for anybody > who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and Vygotsky's critique of > Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the idea that "why" questions and > a focus on causality is a hallmark of theory essentially writes off the > whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, structuralism and post-structuralism. You > might not agree with this line of thought and body of work, but to deny it > status as theory seems pointless. > > I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers > who repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles > by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. There > are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. reviews, pub > discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. > Or am I being compulsively cynical? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: > >> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number of >> issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >> I am forwarding from >> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >> mike >> >> >> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >> > >> [image: Ilya Garber] >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >> > >> Ilya >> Garber >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >> > >> 10:02am >> Jun 14 >> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? ????????????? >> ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >> Must read. >> What theory is not.pdf >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is%20not.pdf >> > >> >> View Post on Facebook >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >> > >> ? Edit Email Settings >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >> > >> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >> > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Jun 15 15:21:17 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 22:21:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG In-Reply-To: <539CF719.1000405@mira.net> References: , <539CF719.1000405@mira.net> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9013DF6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Andy, Dewey actually discusses this when he actually names the concept in Knowing and the Known. He had been using the idea for more than half a century, tracing it all the way back to his Research Arc paper in a footnote. No one can ever say John Dewey used words willy nilly. He wonders I think why we use transaction for exchange because just from a basic dictionary level that's not what the word means. The prefix trans usually means to go across or go through - trans-Siberian, transnational (just looked it up again) so what sense does it make to use it in the way we colloquially use it - our English lexicon is barren enough that we can just throw away interesting, descriptive words so easily. So Dewey takes transaction back to its (at least to him) more correct meaning - across actions. That is when you are understanding an action you should understand it across a field of related actions taking into account different possibilities of interactions within the transactional field. He has this really interesting example of an action that takes place in a pool hall (which I am a little fuzzy on right now) in which the person is shooting a cue ball based on different interactions that occurred before he even entered the pool hall. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 9:30 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG People use words as they will, but it always seemed to me that *transaction* evokes an *external* relation between two subjects in which something is *exchanged*, whereas *interaction* evokes some modification of the nature of each subject itself rather than the addition or subtraction of some contingency. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Thanks Larry--- Very interesting connections for sure. When you start to > parse dialogue as "through the word" it makes a clear connection with words > as mediators, and the emphasis on trans-action instead of inter-action also > seems central in this regard. > mike > > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > > >> Dewey wrote a passage in "Democracy and Education" which stated: >> "If we are willing to conceive education as the process of *forming* >> fundamental dispositions, intellectual and emotional, toward nature and >> fellow-men, philosophy may even be defined AS THE GENERAL THEORY OF >> EDUCATION" [emphasis in original] (p.338) >> >> James Garrison, in the article "Identifying Traces of Hegelian BILDUNG in >> Dewey's Philosophical System" has this to say concerning the above quote by >> Dewey: >> >> "It is however, easy to interpret this statement if we think of philosophy >> and education as BILDUNG. Dispositions are habits or attitudes that are >> formed [BILD] primarily by participating in the norms, beliefs, and values >> of institutionalized social practices" [page 3] >> >> Dewey wrote passionately about *education THROUGH life* in contrast to the >> value of *education FOR life* >> The Greek term *dia* in *dialogue* means *through*. Therefore, dialogue is >> expression THROUGH logos [word]. >> >> The terms *bild* [form] within *bildung* and the term *dia* [through] >> within dialogue are intimately related concepts that express a *tradition* >> [and a genre] which links Hegel's and Vygotsky's and Dewey's projects in a >> bildung tradition which shares a*resemblance* or *affinity* within the >> bildung tradition with roots in neo-humanist understandings. >> >> Kozulin, I believe is writing within this spirit of *bildung* as >> incarnating *spirit* THROUGH [dia] life. >> If we this summer read chapters four [Tool and Symbol in Human >> Development] and five [Thought and Language] of Kozulin's book. >> >> Returning to James Garrison, He wrote, >> >> "We could describe this whole process of endless learning and growth as >> dialectic, a hermeneutic circle, or, my preference, a trans-action. We >> could also call what I have been describing is a philosophy of BILDUNG. My >> paper briefly examines some aspects of the architectonic of Dewey's >> philosophy as constituents of a philosophy of BILDUNG" [page 2] >> >> The article can be found at this address: >> >> http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/program.html >> >> Larry Purss >> >> > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 15:40:13 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 18:40:13 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?W9Cc0LXRgtC+0LTQvtC70L7Qs9C40Y8g0Lgg0LjRgdGC0L4=?= =?utf-8?b?0YDQuNGPINC/0YHQuNGF0L7Qu9C+0LPQuNC4XSBVcGxvYWRlZCBXaGF0IHRo?= =?utf-8?q?eory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: <60533806-EE75-4D82-96EF-3F895061330C@gmail.com> I could not open the paper... On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:35 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi David-- > > The reason I passed this paper along is that the following passage from the > abstract attracted me and the examples given of the confusions about theory > in the text resonated with a lot of writing I have encountered not only in > submitted articles, but in graduate student writings up to and including > dissertations. > > I agree with the fictional consensus the authors identify. > consensus that references, data, variables, diagrams, and hypotheses are not > theory. Despite this consensus, however, authors routinely use these five > elements in lieu of theory. > > I was not advocating their notion of good theory. That is a separate and > very important issue and you know full well that I take Dilthey seriously > -- as Luria and Vygotsky, in their ways, taught me to do. > > If there is interest in the group, we could use the article to take our > discussion that direction. Seems worthwhile to me. > > But, I think we have to acknowledge that the same way the authors find > sloppy reasoning about theory is to be found routinely in articles and > essays by ourselves and our students. > > So, I guess, I think the paper if useful for there critique of writing > practices summed up as what is not a theory (given their version of a > causal social science). If it provokes us to understand better what sorts > of claims we want to make in the articles we write, and how to be clearer > to ourselves, I am for it. > mike > > > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Mike: >> >> This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole >> idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for anybody >> who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and Vygotsky's critique of >> Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the idea that "why" questions and >> a focus on causality is a hallmark of theory essentially writes off the >> whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, structuralism and post-structuralism. You >> might not agree with this line of thought and body of work, but to deny it >> status as theory seems pointless. >> >> I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers >> who repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles >> by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. There >> are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. reviews, pub >> discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. >> Or am I being compulsively cynical? >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: >> >>> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number of >>> issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >>> I am forwarding from >>> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> [image: Ilya Garber] >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> Ilya >>> Garber >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> 10:02am >>> Jun 14 >>> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? ????????????? >>> ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >>> Must read. >>> What theory is not.pdf >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is%20not.pdf >>>> >>> >>> View Post on Facebook >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> ? Edit Email Settings >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >>> >> >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 16:14:30 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 16:14:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] theory not Message-ID: Paper attached for those unable to open. mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: What theory is not-1.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 85529 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140615/2a160369/attachment.bin From lspopov@bgsu.edu Sun Jun 15 17:00:06 2014 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 00:00:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Mike! Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 7:15 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] theory not Paper attached for those unable to open. mike From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jun 15 17:00:15 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 10:00:15 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9013DF6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: , <539CF719.1000405@mira.net> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9013DF6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <539E338F.7050900@mira.net> If Dewey gave a precise meaning to "tranaction" then I am very sure there was good sense in it. My only qualification would be then that anyone introducing the word "transaction" in their work in that sense would have to preface it with a paragraph explaining the meaning Dewey gave (or recovered) for the meaning. Because that is not present in the usually understood meaning. To use "transaction" and put "(Dewey 1949)" afterwards without further explanation would be a disservice. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Andy, > > Dewey actually discusses this when he actually names the concept in Knowing and the Known. He had been using the idea for more than half a century, tracing it all the way back to his Research Arc paper in a footnote. No one can ever say John Dewey used words willy nilly. > > He wonders I think why we use transaction for exchange because just from a basic dictionary level that's not what the word means. The prefix trans usually means to go across or go through - trans-Siberian, transnational (just looked it up again) so what sense does it make to use it in the way we colloquially use it - our English lexicon is barren enough that we can just throw away interesting, descriptive words so easily. > > So Dewey takes transaction back to its (at least to him) more correct meaning - across actions. That is when you are understanding an action you should understand it across a field of related actions taking into account different possibilities of interactions within the transactional field. He has this really interesting example of an action that takes place in a pool hall (which I am a little fuzzy on right now) in which the person is shooting a cue ball based on different interactions that occurred before he even entered the pool hall. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 9:30 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The tradition of BILDUNG > > People use words as they will, but it always seemed to me that > *transaction* evokes an *external* relation between two subjects in > which something is *exchanged*, whereas *interaction* evokes some > modification of the nature of each subject itself rather than the > addition or subtraction of some contingency. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Thanks Larry--- Very interesting connections for sure. When you start to >> parse dialogue as "through the word" it makes a clear connection with words >> as mediators, and the emphasis on trans-action instead of inter-action also >> seems central in this regard. >> mike >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >> >> >>> Dewey wrote a passage in "Democracy and Education" which stated: >>> "If we are willing to conceive education as the process of *forming* >>> fundamental dispositions, intellectual and emotional, toward nature and >>> fellow-men, philosophy may even be defined AS THE GENERAL THEORY OF >>> EDUCATION" [emphasis in original] (p.338) >>> >>> James Garrison, in the article "Identifying Traces of Hegelian BILDUNG in >>> Dewey's Philosophical System" has this to say concerning the above quote by >>> Dewey: >>> >>> "It is however, easy to interpret this statement if we think of philosophy >>> and education as BILDUNG. Dispositions are habits or attitudes that are >>> formed [BILD] primarily by participating in the norms, beliefs, and values >>> of institutionalized social practices" [page 3] >>> >>> Dewey wrote passionately about *education THROUGH life* in contrast to the >>> value of *education FOR life* >>> The Greek term *dia* in *dialogue* means *through*. Therefore, dialogue is >>> expression THROUGH logos [word]. >>> >>> The terms *bild* [form] within *bildung* and the term *dia* [through] >>> within dialogue are intimately related concepts that express a *tradition* >>> [and a genre] which links Hegel's and Vygotsky's and Dewey's projects in a >>> bildung tradition which shares a*resemblance* or *affinity* within the >>> bildung tradition with roots in neo-humanist understandings. >>> >>> Kozulin, I believe is writing within this spirit of *bildung* as >>> incarnating *spirit* THROUGH [dia] life. >>> If we this summer read chapters four [Tool and Symbol in Human >>> Development] and five [Thought and Language] of Kozulin's book. >>> >>> Returning to James Garrison, He wrote, >>> >>> "We could describe this whole process of endless learning and growth as >>> dialectic, a hermeneutic circle, or, my preference, a trans-action. We >>> could also call what I have been describing is a philosophy of BILDUNG. My >>> paper briefly examines some aspects of the architectonic of Dewey's >>> philosophy as constituents of a philosophy of BILDUNG" [page 2] >>> >>> The article can be found at this address: >>> >>> http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/program.html >>> >>> Larry Purss >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:11:38 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:11:38 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Interesting article on Bildung in Anthropology and Education Quarterly Message-ID: There is an interesting short piece on bildung in Anthropology and Education Quarterly that engages with the notion of bildung as it was developed by Germans. It also includes interesting references to Goethe, Hegel, and Gadamer. The article provides an example of bildung (not sure I'm convinced by the examples, but all of the arguments by themselves are quite interesting). Here is the link: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aeq.12059/abstract You'll have to have access through a library or some other connection. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:24:59 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:24:59 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] bildung and obuchenie Message-ID: In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and Education Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very similar to obuchenie. I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before a class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very similar to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same sense of "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And of course I don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of being a "cultivated" person (although this might have been part of what the early authors writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a full development of the human, not merely the dumping of information into the individual. Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts? Are they as similar as they seem to me? If different, then how so? And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character education" as an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie? Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many people sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining a politics that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so I'm always looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you think? Could this be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities? -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 23:54:32 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:54:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, Here is a link to a paper on the German Bildung Tradition: http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/pbt1.html The introduction to this paper traces the historical development of the concept of *bildung* The article explores the origin of the *root metaphor* dating to the 16th century within Pietistic Theology according to which devout Christians SHOULD seek to cultivate (Bildung) within dispositions according to the image of God, which was innate in his soul. This *source* has also been explored by Suzanne Kirschner, in her tracing the *root metaphor* of Psychoanalytic Theory back to these same sources [see her book "The Religious and Romantic Origins of Psychoanalytic Theory: Individuation and Integration" Jakob Bohme [1575 - 1624] [referenced in the article on German Bildung and by Suzanne Krschner] transformed the root metaphor from the *image of God* to its use within *natural philosophy*. "the development or unfolding of certain potentialities within an organism" is the root metaphor as figured within the *developmental spiral* which ascends *higher* or *deeper*. God has been transformed to a natural phenomena as the source of potentiality. By the end of the 1700's *Bildung* was becoming a term with not only spiritual, but also philosophical and political connotations. Increasing the concept of *bildung* was becoming associated with "liberation of the mind" from tradition and superstition. Johann Gottfried von Herder [1744 - 1803] went BEYOND the sense of individual formation to the totality of a people. Bildung was the totality of experience that provides a coherent identity. Herder had a profound influence on Goethe as friends. Herder also developed the methodological foundations of hermeneutics that Schleimacher built on. For Herder, philosophy properly understood is the theory of how the individual will deveop into the kind of organic unity that will drive social progress or social *bildung* THIS conception of philosophy carried forward from Herder to Humboldt, Hegel, Schleiermacher, Dilthey: the tradition of hermeneutics and historicism. At the same time Schiller, inaugurated the pre-Romantic Strum and Drang movement in literature. Goethe and Schiller launched a literary movement known as *Weimar Classicism* to recover ancient aesthetic values. The value was the liberation of man THROUGH organic unity, harmonizing thought and feeling, mind and body. Unlike the Romantics, Weimer Classicism sought to harmonize vivid emotions with the clarity of the Enlightenment which rejected the Romantic notion of *transcendent truth* and the Enlightenment notion of *transcendent pure reason* . Goethe initiated the genre of the Bildungsroman novel of formation THROUGH serving a *higher social good* This genre expresses the ideal which develops the formation of individuals whose conduct is molded of dispositions THROUGH wise education and life experience. This genre and tradition develops THROUGH Goethe nto what is called German *neo-humanism* Satisfaction is not found in Romantic transcendence OF social bonds but in the activities of concrete social life. One grows humanely and naturally "out of the other". This is a quick summary of the article I have supplied a link to. Greg, your question or inquiry may partially be answered THROUGH this brief history of a *root metaphor* Moving from *the image of god* [supernatural] TO the natural but expressing the same developmental *spiral* or *helix*. This root metaphor seems to be continuing to *run through* developmental theories in our current dia-logue [THROUGH LOGOS]. Michael Eldridge and James Garrison have shown how the Bildung genre also *runs through* Dewey's pragmatism. Larry On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 10:24 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and Education > Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very similar to obuchenie. > I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before a > class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very similar > to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same sense of > "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And of course I > don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of being a "cultivated" > person (although this might have been part of what the early authors > writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a full > development of the human, not merely the dumping of information into the > individual. > > Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts? > Are they as similar as they seem to me? > If different, then how so? > > And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character education" as > an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie? > > Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many people > sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining a politics > that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so I'm always > looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you think? Could this > be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities? > > -greg > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jun 15 23:54:32 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 23:54:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, Here is a link to a paper on the German Bildung Tradition: http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/SAAP/USC/pbt1.html The introduction to this paper traces the historical development of the concept of *bildung* The article explores the origin of the *root metaphor* dating to the 16th century within Pietistic Theology according to which devout Christians SHOULD seek to cultivate (Bildung) within dispositions according to the image of God, which was innate in his soul. This *source* has also been explored by Suzanne Kirschner, in her tracing the *root metaphor* of Psychoanalytic Theory back to these same sources [see her book "The Religious and Romantic Origins of Psychoanalytic Theory: Individuation and Integration" Jakob Bohme [1575 - 1624] [referenced in the article on German Bildung and by Suzanne Krschner] transformed the root metaphor from the *image of God* to its use within *natural philosophy*. "the development or unfolding of certain potentialities within an organism" is the root metaphor as figured within the *developmental spiral* which ascends *higher* or *deeper*. God has been transformed to a natural phenomena as the source of potentiality. By the end of the 1700's *Bildung* was becoming a term with not only spiritual, but also philosophical and political connotations. Increasing the concept of *bildung* was becoming associated with "liberation of the mind" from tradition and superstition. Johann Gottfried von Herder [1744 - 1803] went BEYOND the sense of individual formation to the totality of a people. Bildung was the totality of experience that provides a coherent identity. Herder had a profound influence on Goethe as friends. Herder also developed the methodological foundations of hermeneutics that Schleimacher built on. For Herder, philosophy properly understood is the theory of how the individual will deveop into the kind of organic unity that will drive social progress or social *bildung* THIS conception of philosophy carried forward from Herder to Humboldt, Hegel, Schleiermacher, Dilthey: the tradition of hermeneutics and historicism. At the same time Schiller, inaugurated the pre-Romantic Strum and Drang movement in literature. Goethe and Schiller launched a literary movement known as *Weimar Classicism* to recover ancient aesthetic values. The value was the liberation of man THROUGH organic unity, harmonizing thought and feeling, mind and body. Unlike the Romantics, Weimer Classicism sought to harmonize vivid emotions with the clarity of the Enlightenment which rejected the Romantic notion of *transcendent truth* and the Enlightenment notion of *transcendent pure reason* . Goethe initiated the genre of the Bildungsroman novel of formation THROUGH serving a *higher social good* This genre expresses the ideal which develops the formation of individuals whose conduct is molded of dispositions THROUGH wise education and life experience. This genre and tradition develops THROUGH Goethe nto what is called German *neo-humanism* Satisfaction is not found in Romantic transcendence OF social bonds but in the activities of concrete social life. One grows humanely and naturally "out of the other". This is a quick summary of the article I have supplied a link to. Greg, your question or inquiry may partially be answered THROUGH this brief history of a *root metaphor* Moving from *the image of god* [supernatural] TO the natural but expressing the same developmental *spiral* or *helix*. This root metaphor seems to be continuing to *run through* developmental theories in our current dia-logue [THROUGH LOGOS]. Michael Eldridge and James Garrison have shown how the Bildung genre also *runs through* Dewey's pragmatism. Larry On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 10:24 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and Education > Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very similar to obuchenie. > I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before a > class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very similar > to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same sense of > "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And of course I > don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of being a "cultivated" > person (although this might have been part of what the early authors > writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a full > development of the human, not merely the dumping of information into the > individual. > > Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts? > Are they as similar as they seem to me? > If different, then how so? > > And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character education" as > an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie? > > Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many people > sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining a politics > that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so I'm always > looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you think? Could this > be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities? > > -greg > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Mon Jun 16 01:27:42 2014 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 08:27:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31101DB1FDD@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> I was thinking much the same, Gregg. Stephens presents bildung as being a fundamentally social process - the self is built out of relationships with others and as we engage with others we also come to know more about who we are. I would argue that all understanding is essentially social (having a feeling for how what we know is known and felt by others) but that this is particularly central to our understanding of our 'self'. From this perspective we can only understand ourselves by building our awareness of how we are experienced by others and playful interactions (social chat, hanging out) is more effective for this than more remote forms of study. I learned about obuchenie in the course of a wonderful (VERY hot) summer school near Moscow which focused on Vygotsky's concept of play. I learned that Russian understandings of education have a much wider, tanglier connection into the persons teaching and learning than is common in the UK and the USA - which may be why Russians are more likely to describe themselves as students of someone who was a student of someone who was a student of Vygotsky (for example) - being someone's student means you have had an opportunity to get to know more of the person than just what is contained in published works. I think the same is true of 'character building' (though I share Gregg's reservations about the history of this) in English public schools where people pay for the company their children will keep as much as for the quality of the teaching - and the products of particular schools can be quite distinctive and recognisable! I am impressed by how much is packed into such a short article! All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: 16 June 2014 06:25 To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] bildung and obuchenie In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and Education Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very similar to obuchenie. I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before a class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very similar to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same sense of "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And of course I don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of being a "cultivated" person (although this might have been part of what the early authors writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a full development of the human, not merely the dumping of information into the individual. Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts? Are they as similar as they seem to me? If different, then how so? And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character education" as an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie? Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many people sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining a politics that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so I'm always looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you think? Could this be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities? -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon Jun 16 05:35:13 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 05:35:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. Thanks -- Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > Paper attached for those unable to open. > mike > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jun 16 07:56:13 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 07:56:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31101DB1FDD@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31101DB1FDD@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Greg, Rod, Thanks for this article exploring bildung as *serious play*. The distinction which Ricoeur explores between *socius* and *neighbour* seems to offer an entry into moral stances as *staying open to the other* and moving away from *having* re-presentations of the already formed. It seems the notion of *serious play* as holding one's perspective lightly [in contrast to frivolous play] and remaining open to alterity and the other [Gadamer's notion of *fusions of horizons* as entering play] expands and deepens the seriousness of the understanding of play in developmental theory. Play moves beyond a particular stage of development to become developmentally emergent within all of life's engagements. This notion of *serious* play within a dialogue with *socius* also transforms the notion of *socius as roles* [as Ricouer explores this distinction]. Serious play moves *beyond* socius and structural relations AS *systems* Larry On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I was thinking much the same, Gregg. > Stephens presents bildung as being a fundamentally social process - the > self is built out of relationships with others and as we engage with others > we also come to know more about who we are. I would argue that all > understanding is essentially social (having a feeling for how what we know > is known and felt by others) but that this is particularly central to our > understanding of our 'self'. From this perspective we can only understand > ourselves by building our awareness of how we are experienced by others and > playful interactions (social chat, hanging out) is more effective for this > than more remote forms of study. I learned about obuchenie in the course of > a wonderful (VERY hot) summer school near Moscow which focused on > Vygotsky's concept of play. I learned that Russian understandings of > education have a much wider, tanglier connection into the persons teaching > and learning than is common in the UK and the USA - which may be why > Russians are more likely to describe themselves as students of someone who > was a student of someone who was a student of Vygotsky (for example) - > being someone's student means you have had an opportunity to get to know > more of the person than just what is contained in published works. I think > the same is true of 'character building' (though I share Gregg's > reservations about the history of this) in English public schools where > people pay for the company their children will keep as much as for the > quality of the teaching - and the products of particular schools can be > quite distinctive and recognisable! > > I am impressed by how much is packed into such a short article! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: 16 June 2014 06:25 > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] bildung and obuchenie > > In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and Education > Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very similar to obuchenie. > I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before a > class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very similar > to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same sense of > "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And of course I > don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of being a "cultivated" > person (although this might have been part of what the early authors > writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a full > development of the human, not merely the dumping of information into the > individual. > > Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts? > Are they as similar as they seem to me? > If different, then how so? > > And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character education" as > an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie? > > Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many people > sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining a politics > that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so I'm always > looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you think? Could this > be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities? > > -greg > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Mon Jun 16 08:11:15 2014 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:11:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie In-Reply-To: References: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31101DB1FDD@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31101DB2408@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Yes, but I am uncomfortable with the term 'serious' here. For me the defining form of adult playful interaction is light hearted, free-wheeling social chat among friends (though I am happy to accept that other forms of adult playfulness are available!). This may be 'serious' in the sense that it plays a very important role in holding communities together but I don't think it is experienced as serious (come on guys, we really need to get back to our playful interaction). The lightness of attachment to personal perspectives, intentions etc. which is a necessary condition for being open to other possibilities just doesn't feel serious (even if it is). I am also not sure that it is helped by being studied, observed or thought about too much. The unlived life is not worth examining. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: 16 June 2014 15:56 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie Greg, Rod, Thanks for this article exploring bildung as *serious play*. The distinction which Ricoeur explores between *socius* and *neighbour* seems to offer an entry into moral stances as *staying open to the other* and moving away from *having* re-presentations of the already formed. It seems the notion of *serious play* as holding one's perspective lightly [in contrast to frivolous play] and remaining open to alterity and the other [Gadamer's notion of *fusions of horizons* as entering play] expands and deepens the seriousness of the understanding of play in developmental theory. Play moves beyond a particular stage of development to become developmentally emergent within all of life's engagements. This notion of *serious* play within a dialogue with *socius* also transforms the notion of *socius as roles* [as Ricouer explores this distinction]. Serious play moves *beyond* socius and structural relations AS *systems* Larry On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I was thinking much the same, Gregg. > Stephens presents bildung as being a fundamentally social process - > the self is built out of relationships with others and as we engage > with others we also come to know more about who we are. I would argue > that all understanding is essentially social (having a feeling for how > what we know is known and felt by others) but that this is > particularly central to our understanding of our 'self'. From this > perspective we can only understand ourselves by building our awareness > of how we are experienced by others and playful interactions (social > chat, hanging out) is more effective for this than more remote forms > of study. I learned about obuchenie in the course of a wonderful (VERY > hot) summer school near Moscow which focused on Vygotsky's concept of > play. I learned that Russian understandings of education have a much > wider, tanglier connection into the persons teaching and learning than > is common in the UK and the USA - which may be why Russians are more > likely to describe themselves as students of someone who was a student > of someone who was a student of Vygotsky (for example) - being > someone's student means you have had an opportunity to get to know > more of the person than just what is contained in published works. I > think the same is true of 'character building' (though I share Gregg's > reservations about the history of this) in English public schools > where people pay for the company their children will keep as much as > for the quality of the teaching - and the products of particular schools can be quite distinctive and recognisable! > > I am impressed by how much is packed into such a short article! > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: 16 June 2014 06:25 > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] bildung and obuchenie > > In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and Education > Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very similar to obuchenie. > I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before a > class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very > similar to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same > sense of "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And > of course I don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of being a "cultivated" > person (although this might have been part of what the early authors > writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a full > development of the human, not merely the dumping of information into > the individual. > > Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts? > Are they as similar as they seem to me? > If different, then how so? > > And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character > education" as an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie? > > Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many > people sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining > a politics that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so > I'm always looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you > think? Could this be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities? > > -greg > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely > for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University > accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to > scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept > responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this > email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services > unless accompanied by an official order form. > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon Jun 16 13:04:51 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 13:04:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB?= =?utf-8?b?0YLQvtGA0LjRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjQuF0gVXBsb2FkZWQgV2hh?= =?utf-8?q?t_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: David -- I wouldn't be so severe as to say that you're being compulsively cynical, but I would say that your comments are a bit on the tough side. This article (which is showing up on my subject line in Cyrillic) is one of those code-breakers that may seem unnecessary to those for whom the information is obvious, but it essential for those who haven't run into anyone who could step aside for a moment and pass along the key secrets. It reminds me of a message sent out on XMCA about 20 years ago -- is that possible? -- by Chris Argyris about how to behave with ones colleagues on email. These are things that if no one says them out loud, they are expensive to learn through trial and error. Helena Worthen hworthen@illinois.edu helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 15, 2014, at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike: > > This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole idea > of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for anybody who > has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and Vygotsky's critique of > Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the idea that "why" questions and > a focus on causality is a hallmark of theory essentially writes off the > whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, structuralism and post-structuralism. You > might not agree with this line of thought and body of work, but to deny it > status as theory seems pointless. > > I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers > who repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles > by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. There > are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. reviews, pub > discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. > Or am I being compulsively cynical? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: > >> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number of >> issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >> I am forwarding from >> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >> mike >> >> >> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> [image: Ilya Garber] >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> Ilya >> Garber >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> 10:02am >> Jun 14 >> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? ????????????? >> ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >> Must read. >> What theory is not.pdf >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is%20not.pdf >>> >> >> View Post on Facebook >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F776439485741643%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> ? Edit Email Settings >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >> From lspopov@bgsu.edu Mon Jun 16 13:46:42 2014 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 20:46:42 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB?= =?utf-8?b?0YLQvtGA0LjRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjQuF0gVXBsb2FkZWQgV2hh?= =?utf-8?q?t_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Just to add: In the professions, theoretical training is not very strong because the focus is on hands-on thinking. The article is evidently written for researchers in the professions rather than the sciences. At least, this is my perception. Lubomir Lubomir Popov, PhD School of Family and Consumer Sciences American Culture Studies Affiliated Faculty Bowling Green State University -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:05 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] Uploaded What theory is not.pdf David -- I wouldn't be so severe as to say that you're being compulsively cynical, but I would say that your comments are a bit on the tough side. This article (which is showing up on my subject line in Cyrillic) is one of those code-breakers that may seem unnecessary to those for whom the information is obvious, but it essential for those who haven't run into anyone who could step aside for a moment and pass along the key secrets. It reminds me of a message sent out on XMCA about 20 years ago -- is that possible? -- by Chris Argyris about how to behave with ones colleagues on email. These are things that if no one says them out loud, they are expensive to learn through trial and error. Helena Worthen hworthen@illinois.edu helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 15, 2014, at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > Mike: > > This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole > idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for > anybody who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and > Vygotsky's critique of Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the > idea that "why" questions and a focus on causality is a hallmark of > theory essentially writes off the whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, > structuralism and post-structuralism. You might not agree with this > line of thought and body of work, but to deny it status as theory seems pointless. > > I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers who > repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles > by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. > There are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. > reviews, pub discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. > Or am I being compulsively cynical? > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: > >> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number >> of issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >> I am forwarding from >> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >> mike >> >> >> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> [image: Ilya Garber] >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> Ilya >> Garber >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> 10:02am >> Jun 14 >> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? >> ????????????? ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >> Must read. >> What theory is not.pdf >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is% >> 20not.pdf >>> >> >> View Post on Facebook >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>> >> ? Edit Email Settings >> < >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_ >> notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395 >> aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.co >> m >>> >> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Jun 16 17:16:21 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 01:16:21 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB?= =?utf-8?b?0YLQvtGA0LjRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjQuF0gVXBsb2FkZWQg?= =?utf-8?q?What_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: For me, the lack of theory and the lack of applying theory in social science postgraduate courses is dumbfounding. Most of the students and staff I've met don't seem to mind however. Though it seems like moving through the thickest of treacle to even state this.... there is a need for such papers. Best, Huw On 16 June 2014 21:46, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Just to add: In the professions, theoretical training is not very strong > because the focus is on hands-on thinking. The article is evidently written > for researchers in the professions rather than the sciences. At least, this > is my perception. > > Lubomir > > Lubomir Popov, PhD > School of Family and Consumer Sciences > American Culture Studies Affiliated Faculty > Bowling Green State University > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:05 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] Uploaded > What theory is not.pdf > > David -- > > I wouldn't be so severe as to say that you're being compulsively cynical, > but I would say that your comments are a bit on the tough side. > > This article (which is showing up on my subject line in Cyrillic) is one > of those code-breakers that may seem unnecessary to those for whom the > information is obvious, but it essential for those who haven't run into > anyone who could step aside for a moment and pass along the key secrets. It > reminds me of a message sent out on XMCA about 20 years ago -- is that > possible? -- by Chris Argyris about how to behave with ones colleagues on > email. These are things that if no one says them out loud, they are > expensive to learn through trial and error. > > > Helena Worthen > hworthen@illinois.edu > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jun 15, 2014, at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Mike: > > > > This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole > > idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for > > anybody who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and > > Vygotsky's critique of Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the > > idea that "why" questions and a focus on causality is a hallmark of > > theory essentially writes off the whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, > > structuralism and post-structuralism. You might not agree with this > > line of thought and body of work, but to deny it status as theory seems > pointless. > > > > I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers who > > repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles > > by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. > > There are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. > > reviews, pub discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are > desperate to publish. > > Or am I being compulsively cynical? > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: > > > >> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number > >> of issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent > to MCA. > >> I am forwarding from > >> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. > >> mike > >> > >> > >> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? < > >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 > >> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 > >> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > >>> > >> [image: Ilya Garber] > >> < > >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& > >> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 > >> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > >>> > >> Ilya > >> Garber > >> < > >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& > >> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 > >> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > >>> > >> 10:02am > >> Jun 14 > >> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? > >> ????????????? ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? > ???????? ???????. > >> Must read. > >> What theory is not.pdf > >> < > >> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is% > >> 20not.pdf > >>> > >> > >> View Post on Facebook > >> < > >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 > >> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 > >> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com > >>> > >> ? Edit Email Settings > >> < > >> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_ > >> notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395 > >> aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.co > >> m > >>> > >> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. > >> > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Jun 16 17:40:08 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:40:08 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> References: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> Sobering reading, especially interesting to read the views of editors from a very different scientific tradition. The type of non-theory manuscript I have found very disappointing in our discipline is typified by one I read recently. The authors described a case study, which involved no intervention by the authors, and no pathology: the subject successfully lived through a challenging period in their life, that's all. The authors simply pinned high-falutin labels to various events and relations or cited references to other writers as the story went along. I admit that I was so offended by the fact that all the labels were garbled and the references inappropriate, that I had failed to notice that even if the labels had been correctly applied and teh references appropriate, the paper would still have been without content! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Helena Worthen wrote: > Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. > > Thanks -- > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > > On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: > > >> Paper attached for those unable to open. >> mike >> >> > > > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Jun 18 06:51:41 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 09:51:41 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> References: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> Message-ID: Hello - This article was useful to me because I work in a field that is closely linked to Organizational Behavior but is different in purpose, namely, labor education. The article was published in Administrative Science Quarterly, which comes out of the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell. Its presumed audience is managers and students in MBA programs. The theoretical frameworks that OB builds from have value, but they play out differently when applied to contexts like labor unions or collectives of unrepresented workers who are trying to negotiate with those managers. Although the authors of the article doesn't make this their main point, the idea that "theory" is not references, diagrams, lit reviews or predictions etc but is actually some statement or explanation of a relationship, such as causal relationship, is important. When you lift a theory from one context and try to apply it in another context, you have to be very clear about what the theory actually is. Many OB practitioners are not academics but consultants. (Many are both, of course.) They charge big bucks to do trainings and offer advice about how to shape organizations. Most of them work with businesses, but some work with labor organizations. They bring with them proprietary materials, sometimes copyrighted, and terminology that is unique to their own consultancies. They back this up with "research." In my experience, however, they do not actually teach their clients the theory that the research is connected to, nor do they share the research. But it's hard for someone sitting in one of the meetings where this stuff is being delivered to ask directly, "What's the theory that the research behind this is based on?" In a bottom-up, member-driven organization like a union (a good one), the theory behind what is being proposed has to be lying right out on the table in the middle of the discussion for everyone to see and discuss. Everyone who is part of the decision-making process has to be able to put their hands on it in some way. A different take on this: While this discussion was starting up on XMCA, I happened to be reading the May 2014 issue of the Clarion, the newspaper of the Professional Staff Congress of CUNY. On page 5 there's an article that is related to this discussion and should be of interest to people in education faculties. There's a new teacher certification exam in NY called "edTPA." The evaluation of the results of this test has been outsourced to Pearson Inc., the for-profit education "reform" corporation. A professor (Ruth Powers Silverberg) who attended a meeting about the implementation of edPTA asked about the research it was based on and was told that she could find it on the website. "I went to the website," says the article, "where I found eight articles. One of them was about edTPA. The other seven were on a variety of topics and all but one article had been authored by the creators of edTPA." I'm mentioning this because this article about what theory is NOT is a good tool for challenging some of the rip-offs that are taking place in what is now being referred to as the "education reform movement." It's such a big thing that it's being called a movement, not just individual tweaks and fiddles with individual school and community college districts. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 On Jun 16, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Sobering reading, especially interesting to read the views of editors from a very different scientific tradition. > The type of non-theory manuscript I have found very disappointing in our discipline is typified by one I read recently. > The authors described a case study, which involved no intervention by the authors, and no pathology: the subject successfully lived through a challenging period in their life, that's all. The authors simply pinned high-falutin labels to various events and relations or cited references to other writers as the story went along. I admit that I was so offended by the fact that all the labels were garbled and the references inappropriate, that I had failed to notice that even if the labels had been correctly applied and teh references appropriate, the paper would still have been without content! > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Helena Worthen wrote: >> Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. >> >> Thanks -- >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> >> On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> Paper attached for those unable to open. >>> mike >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > From lspopov@bgsu.edu Wed Jun 18 07:40:03 2014 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 14:40:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: References: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> Message-ID: <8646618c0b6242ebb2f8395d0e5d3562@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Thank you Helena, I have similar observations in a few fields related to facilities planning, including management consulting. It is all about personal professional experience, proprietary information, and hands-on methods. This is the nature of the profession. The professions have very different objectives and pressures compared to academia. They cannot afford to go back and forth, discussing new findings and deliberating the nature of things. The project typically has to be finished by tomorrow (metaphorically speaking), although the client has delivered the project brief today at lunch. If the consultants don't do it on time and on budget, they lose the client and worst of all, get bad rap in the client professional community. No more projects, no more business, prepare for bankruptcy. I hope that with the drive for evidence-based practice currently in medicine, nursing, and architecture, things might change. But it will take many years to synchronize the systems that are involved. Best wishes, Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:52 AM To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not Hello - This article was useful to me because I work in a field that is closely linked to Organizational Behavior but is different in purpose, namely, labor education. The article was published in Administrative Science Quarterly, which comes out of the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell. Its presumed audience is managers and students in MBA programs. The theoretical frameworks that OB builds from have value, but they play out differently when applied to contexts like labor unions or collectives of unrepresented workers who are trying to negotiate with those managers. Although the authors of the article doesn't make this their main point, the idea that "theory" is not references, diagrams, lit reviews or predictions etc but is actually some statement or explanation of a relationship, such as causal relationship, is important. When you lift a theory from one context and try to apply it in another context, you have to be very clear about what the theory actually is. Many OB practitioners are not academics but consultants. (Many are both, of course.) They charge big bucks to do trainings and offer advice about how to shape organizations. Most of them work with businesses, but some work with labor organizations. They bring with them proprietary materials, sometimes copyrighted, and terminology that is unique to their own consultancies. They back this up with "research." In my experience, however, they do not actually teach their clients the theory that the research is connected to, nor do they share the research. But it's hard for someone sitting in one of the meetings where this stuff is being delivered to ask directly, "What's the theory that the research behind this is based on?" In a bottom-up, member-driven organization like a union (a good one), the theory behind what is being proposed has to be lying right out on the table in the middle of the discussion for everyone to see and discuss. Everyone who is part of the decision-making process has to be able to put their hands on it in some way. A different take on this: While this discussion was starting up on XMCA, I happened to be reading the May 2014 issue of the Clarion, the newspaper of the Professional Staff Congress of CUNY. On page 5 there's an article that is related to this discussion and should be of interest to people in education faculties. There's a new teacher certification exam in NY called "edTPA." The evaluation of the results of this test has been outsourced to Pearson Inc., the for-profit education "reform" corporation. A professor (Ruth Powers Silverberg) who attended a meeting about the implementation of edPTA asked about the research it was based on and was told that she could find it on the website. "I went to the website," says the article, "where I found eight articles. One of them was about edTPA. The other seven were on a variety of topics and all but one article had been authored by the creators of edTPA." I'm mentioning this because this article about what theory is NOT is a good tool for challenging some of the rip-offs that are taking place in what is now being referred to as the "education reform movement." It's such a big thing that it's being called a movement, not just individual tweaks and fiddles with individual school and community college districts. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 510-828-2745 On Jun 16, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Sobering reading, especially interesting to read the views of editors from a very different scientific tradition. > The type of non-theory manuscript I have found very disappointing in our discipline is typified by one I read recently. > The authors described a case study, which involved no intervention by the authors, and no pathology: the subject successfully lived through a challenging period in their life, that's all. The authors simply pinned high-falutin labels to various events and relations or cited references to other writers as the story went along. I admit that I was so offended by the fact that all the labels were garbled and the references inappropriate, that I had failed to notice that even if the labels had been correctly applied and teh references appropriate, the paper would still have been without content! > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Helena Worthen wrote: >> Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. >> >> Thanks -- >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> >> On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> Paper attached for those unable to open. >>> mike >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Jun 18 09:42:52 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:42:52 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: <8646618c0b6242ebb2f8395d0e5d3562@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> <8646618c0b6242ebb2f8395d0e5d3562@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Lubomir: Well-put, from the point of view of the consultant who has to make a living in the real world. However, from the point of view of labor educators organizing workers (or activists doing political organizing too, as we look ahead to another round of electoral cannibalism), the process has to go way past tomorrow morning's deadline and actually cause learning to happen in the minds and bodies of the bottom tier of those affected or engaged. Can you please explain how the drive for evidence-based practice might synchronize with stronger definitions of and clearer expressions of theory? This is one of those things that I think sounds right but I don't think I could explain. It sounds as if you could explain it, and I would appreciate hearing what you say. Thanks -- Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 18, 2014, at 10:40 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Thank you Helena, > > I have similar observations in a few fields related to facilities planning, including management consulting. It is all about personal professional experience, proprietary information, and hands-on methods. This is the nature of the profession. > > The professions have very different objectives and pressures compared to academia. They cannot afford to go back and forth, discussing new findings and deliberating the nature of things. The project typically has to be finished by tomorrow (metaphorically speaking), although the client has delivered the project brief today at lunch. If the consultants don't do it on time and on budget, they lose the client and worst of all, get bad rap in the client professional community. No more projects, no more business, prepare for bankruptcy. > > I hope that with the drive for evidence-based practice currently in medicine, nursing, and architecture, things might change. But it will take many years to synchronize the systems that are involved. > > Best wishes, > > Lubomir > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:52 AM > To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not > > Hello - > > This article was useful to me because I work in a field that is closely linked to Organizational Behavior but is different in purpose, namely, labor education. The article was published in Administrative Science Quarterly, which comes out of the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell. Its presumed audience is managers and students in MBA programs. The theoretical frameworks that OB builds from have value, but they play out differently when applied to contexts like labor unions or collectives of unrepresented workers who are trying to negotiate with those managers. > > Although the authors of the article doesn't make this their main point, the idea that "theory" is not references, diagrams, lit reviews or predictions etc but is actually some statement or explanation of a relationship, such as causal relationship, is important. When you lift a theory from one context and try to apply it in another context, you have to be very clear about what the theory actually is. > > Many OB practitioners are not academics but consultants. (Many are both, of course.) They charge big bucks to do trainings and offer advice about how to shape organizations. Most of them work with businesses, but some work with labor organizations. They bring with them proprietary materials, sometimes copyrighted, and terminology that is unique to their own consultancies. They back this up with "research." In my experience, however, they do not actually teach their clients the theory that the research is connected to, nor do they share the research. But it's hard for someone sitting in one of the meetings where this stuff is being delivered to ask directly, "What's the theory that the research behind this is based on?" > > In a bottom-up, member-driven organization like a union (a good one), the theory behind what is being proposed has to be lying right out on the table in the middle of the discussion for everyone to see and discuss. Everyone who is part of the decision-making process has to be able to put their hands on it in some way. > > A different take on this: While this discussion was starting up on XMCA, I happened to be reading the May 2014 issue of the Clarion, the newspaper of the Professional Staff Congress of CUNY. On page 5 there's an article that is related to this discussion and should be of interest to people in education faculties. There's a new teacher certification exam in NY called "edTPA." The evaluation of the results of this test has been outsourced to Pearson Inc., the for-profit education "reform" corporation. A professor (Ruth Powers Silverberg) who attended a meeting about the implementation of edPTA asked about the research it was based on and was told that she could find it on the website. "I went to the website," says the article, "where I found eight articles. One of them was about edTPA. The other seven were on a variety of topics and all but one article had been authored by the creators of edTPA." > > I'm mentioning this because this article about what theory is NOT is a good tool for challenging some of the rip-offs that are taking place in what is now being referred to as the "education reform movement." It's such a big thing that it's being called a movement, not just individual tweaks and fiddles with individual school and community college districts. > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > 510-828-2745 > > On Jun 16, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Sobering reading, especially interesting to read the views of editors from a very different scientific tradition. >> The type of non-theory manuscript I have found very disappointing in our discipline is typified by one I read recently. >> The authors described a case study, which involved no intervention by the authors, and no pathology: the subject successfully lived through a challenging period in their life, that's all. The authors simply pinned high-falutin labels to various events and relations or cited references to other writers as the story went along. I admit that I was so offended by the fact that all the labels were garbled and the references inappropriate, that I had failed to notice that even if the labels had been correctly applied and teh references appropriate, the paper would still have been without content! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Helena Worthen wrote: >>> Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. >>> >>> Thanks -- >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Paper attached for those unable to open. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Jun 18 11:21:46 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 18:21:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] play, performance, and human development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lois Holzman sent me this link to a TED talk she gave on the role of play in human development....possibly of interest to some? TED talk From lspopov@bgsu.edu Wed Jun 18 11:22:15 2014 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 18:22:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: References: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> <8646618c0b6242ebb2f8395d0e5d3562@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <0af6e1f255d5411dae45248a09e2a754@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Hi Helena, My experience is mostly from hospital facilities planning and design. With the advent of the evidence-based practice movement, clients started asking for the grounds of the decisions and solutions that are proposed. They started thinking about research findings. Some of the more advanced clients hired researchers. Client decision makers got exposed to or enlightened by research, field research mostly. However, this interest in research findings will lead to epistemological and theoretical interests. This process might continue for decades. It is very slow, despite of the buzz about evidence-based design. Everybody claims they are doing it, but the actually the hiring of researchers with doctoral degrees is still insignificant. However, this is still better than having none at all. The pressure in hospital facilities planning and design comes from the healthcare industry probably because of the movement for evidence-based medicine (and nursing). Hospital clients realized the importance of organizational design. So now we have the synergy research and organizational design. After the research wave generates a critical mass, I expect that clients (client officers) will become more proficient in research and theory. This might happen through new hires that have research training. They will start examining the information sources cited in the decision-making process. They will look into the epistemological and theoretical foundations. In turn, the providers will have to increase their research potential and scholarly background. This is only one scenario and I am open for some variations. But in general, the trajectory is confirmed by a number of developments in the last 20 years, mostly in healthcare and related industries. However, the major problem might be might bigger. Theory is despised even in academia. Most of the positivists are atheoretical field researchers. Next come the issue of developing the theory of research application. In healthcare they call it translational research. This is not the best approach. There is translation, but actually, we have to do much more than translate research. For CHAT people with their background, the value of theory is self-understanding. Activity theory has a long history of "theorizing." It is grounded both in the traditions of Historical Materialism and in the most theoretical layers (or communities) of a few other paradigms. Just a few thoughts. Best wishes, Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:43 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not Lubomir: Well-put, from the point of view of the consultant who has to make a living in the real world. However, from the point of view of labor educators organizing workers (or activists doing political organizing too, as we look ahead to another round of electoral cannibalism), the process has to go way past tomorrow morning's deadline and actually cause learning to happen in the minds and bodies of the bottom tier of those affected or engaged. Can you please explain how the drive for evidence-based practice might synchronize with stronger definitions of and clearer expressions of theory? This is one of those things that I think sounds right but I don't think I could explain. It sounds as if you could explain it, and I would appreciate hearing what you say. Thanks -- Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 18, 2014, at 10:40 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Thank you Helena, > > I have similar observations in a few fields related to facilities planning, including management consulting. It is all about personal professional experience, proprietary information, and hands-on methods. This is the nature of the profession. > > The professions have very different objectives and pressures compared to academia. They cannot afford to go back and forth, discussing new findings and deliberating the nature of things. The project typically has to be finished by tomorrow (metaphorically speaking), although the client has delivered the project brief today at lunch. If the consultants don't do it on time and on budget, they lose the client and worst of all, get bad rap in the client professional community. No more projects, no more business, prepare for bankruptcy. > > I hope that with the drive for evidence-based practice currently in medicine, nursing, and architecture, things might change. But it will take many years to synchronize the systems that are involved. > > Best wishes, > > Lubomir > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:52 AM > To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not > > Hello - > > This article was useful to me because I work in a field that is closely linked to Organizational Behavior but is different in purpose, namely, labor education. The article was published in Administrative Science Quarterly, which comes out of the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell. Its presumed audience is managers and students in MBA programs. The theoretical frameworks that OB builds from have value, but they play out differently when applied to contexts like labor unions or collectives of unrepresented workers who are trying to negotiate with those managers. > > Although the authors of the article doesn't make this their main point, the idea that "theory" is not references, diagrams, lit reviews or predictions etc but is actually some statement or explanation of a relationship, such as causal relationship, is important. When you lift a theory from one context and try to apply it in another context, you have to be very clear about what the theory actually is. > > Many OB practitioners are not academics but consultants. (Many are both, of course.) They charge big bucks to do trainings and offer advice about how to shape organizations. Most of them work with businesses, but some work with labor organizations. They bring with them proprietary materials, sometimes copyrighted, and terminology that is unique to their own consultancies. They back this up with "research." In my experience, however, they do not actually teach their clients the theory that the research is connected to, nor do they share the research. But it's hard for someone sitting in one of the meetings where this stuff is being delivered to ask directly, "What's the theory that the research behind this is based on?" > > In a bottom-up, member-driven organization like a union (a good one), the theory behind what is being proposed has to be lying right out on the table in the middle of the discussion for everyone to see and discuss. Everyone who is part of the decision-making process has to be able to put their hands on it in some way. > > A different take on this: While this discussion was starting up on XMCA, I happened to be reading the May 2014 issue of the Clarion, the newspaper of the Professional Staff Congress of CUNY. On page 5 there's an article that is related to this discussion and should be of interest to people in education faculties. There's a new teacher certification exam in NY called "edTPA." The evaluation of the results of this test has been outsourced to Pearson Inc., the for-profit education "reform" corporation. A professor (Ruth Powers Silverberg) who attended a meeting about the implementation of edPTA asked about the research it was based on and was told that she could find it on the website. "I went to the website," says the article, "where I found eight articles. One of them was about edTPA. The other seven were on a variety of topics and all but one article had been authored by the creators of edTPA." > > I'm mentioning this because this article about what theory is NOT is a good tool for challenging some of the rip-offs that are taking place in what is now being referred to as the "education reform movement." It's such a big thing that it's being called a movement, not just individual tweaks and fiddles with individual school and community college districts. > > Helena > > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > 510-828-2745 > > On Jun 16, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Sobering reading, especially interesting to read the views of editors from a very different scientific tradition. >> The type of non-theory manuscript I have found very disappointing in our discipline is typified by one I read recently. >> The authors described a case study, which involved no intervention by the authors, and no pathology: the subject successfully lived through a challenging period in their life, that's all. The authors simply pinned high-falutin labels to various events and relations or cited references to other writers as the story went along. I admit that I was so offended by the fact that all the labels were garbled and the references inappropriate, that I had failed to notice that even if the labels had been correctly applied and teh references appropriate, the paper would still have been without content! >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Helena Worthen wrote: >>> Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. >>> >>> Thanks -- >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Paper attached for those unable to open. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Wed Jun 18 11:55:32 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 14:55:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not In-Reply-To: <0af6e1f255d5411dae45248a09e2a754@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <727E8307-92BA-4EC1-833C-4A7C3D2ABCC4@gmail.com> <539F8E68.4040400@mira.net> <8646618c0b6242ebb2f8395d0e5d3562@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <0af6e1f255d5411dae45248a09e2a754@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thank you. This rings true to me. I am, of course, interested in the spillover onto the workforce and I think i can see it happening at Kaiser Permanente in Oakland, CA. Kaiser is a gigantic HMO with hospitals all over California and a few other states. In Oakland, they have just built a new hospital building where, among other things, the new Emergency Room is going to be located. I have been able to get updates about the training of ER nurses who are going to be moving soon into this new space. Kaiser has selected some teams of experienced nurses and is training them as trainers. They will then be on duty as trainers while the rest of the nursing workforce learns how to function in the new space. Given the highly time-sensitive functions that happen in an ER, along with the carefully and consciously managed channels of communication within and around different teams of workers, the transition into a different space -- even one ideally configured to make the work as efficient and effective as possible -- is a big educational challenge. . I know that they're doing role plays (I think of the construction of collective competence, here) for example. A lot of the technology is new, too. This is all happening in the context of an anticipated labor dispute when the nurses' contracts expire later this summer. At present, Kaiser has put a freeze on hiring so that 40% of nurses are "travelers" meaning nurses who are not Kaiser employees; they come from nursing agencies. This is also a ripple in the waves created by the shift to implementation of the Affordable Care Act. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 18, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Hi Helena, > > My experience is mostly from hospital facilities planning and design. With the advent of the evidence-based practice movement, clients started asking for the grounds of the decisions and solutions that are proposed. They started thinking about research findings. Some of the more advanced clients hired researchers. Client decision makers got exposed to or enlightened by research, field research mostly. However, this interest in research findings will lead to epistemological and theoretical interests. > > This process might continue for decades. It is very slow, despite of the buzz about evidence-based design. Everybody claims they are doing it, but the actually the hiring of researchers with doctoral degrees is still insignificant. However, this is still better than having none at all. > > The pressure in hospital facilities planning and design comes from the healthcare industry probably because of the movement for evidence-based medicine (and nursing). Hospital clients realized the importance of organizational design. So now we have the synergy research and organizational design. After the research wave generates a critical mass, I expect that clients (client officers) will become more proficient in research and theory. This might happen through new hires that have research training. They will start examining the information sources cited in the decision-making process. They will look into the epistemological and theoretical foundations. In turn, the providers will have to increase their research potential and scholarly background. This is only one scenario and I am open for some variations. But in general, the trajectory is confirmed by a number of developments in the last 20 years, mostly in healthcare and related industries. > > However, the major problem might be might bigger. Theory is despised even in academia. Most of the positivists are atheoretical field researchers. Next come the issue of developing the theory of research application. In healthcare they call it translational research. This is not the best approach. There is translation, but actually, we have to do much more than translate research. > > For CHAT people with their background, the value of theory is self-understanding. Activity theory has a long history of "theorizing." It is grounded both in the traditions of Historical Materialism and in the most theoretical layers (or communities) of a few other paradigms. > > Just a few thoughts. > > Best wishes, > > Lubomir > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:43 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not > > Lubomir: > > Well-put, from the point of view of the consultant who has to make a living in the real world. > > However, from the point of view of labor educators organizing workers (or activists doing political organizing too, as we look ahead to another round of electoral cannibalism), the process has to go way past tomorrow morning's deadline and actually cause learning to happen in the minds and bodies of the bottom tier of those affected or engaged. > > Can you please explain how the drive for evidence-based practice might synchronize with stronger definitions of and clearer expressions of theory? This is one of those things that I think sounds right but I don't think I could explain. It sounds as if you could explain it, and I would appreciate hearing what you say. > > Thanks -- > > Helena > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jun 18, 2014, at 10:40 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > >> Thank you Helena, >> >> I have similar observations in a few fields related to facilities planning, including management consulting. It is all about personal professional experience, proprietary information, and hands-on methods. This is the nature of the profession. >> >> The professions have very different objectives and pressures compared to academia. They cannot afford to go back and forth, discussing new findings and deliberating the nature of things. The project typically has to be finished by tomorrow (metaphorically speaking), although the client has delivered the project brief today at lunch. If the consultants don't do it on time and on budget, they lose the client and worst of all, get bad rap in the client professional community. No more projects, no more business, prepare for bankruptcy. >> >> I hope that with the drive for evidence-based practice currently in medicine, nursing, and architecture, things might change. But it will take many years to synchronize the systems that are involved. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Lubomir >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:52 AM >> To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: theory not >> >> Hello - >> >> This article was useful to me because I work in a field that is closely linked to Organizational Behavior but is different in purpose, namely, labor education. The article was published in Administrative Science Quarterly, which comes out of the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell. Its presumed audience is managers and students in MBA programs. The theoretical frameworks that OB builds from have value, but they play out differently when applied to contexts like labor unions or collectives of unrepresented workers who are trying to negotiate with those managers. >> >> Although the authors of the article doesn't make this their main point, the idea that "theory" is not references, diagrams, lit reviews or predictions etc but is actually some statement or explanation of a relationship, such as causal relationship, is important. When you lift a theory from one context and try to apply it in another context, you have to be very clear about what the theory actually is. >> >> Many OB practitioners are not academics but consultants. (Many are both, of course.) They charge big bucks to do trainings and offer advice about how to shape organizations. Most of them work with businesses, but some work with labor organizations. They bring with them proprietary materials, sometimes copyrighted, and terminology that is unique to their own consultancies. They back this up with "research." In my experience, however, they do not actually teach their clients the theory that the research is connected to, nor do they share the research. But it's hard for someone sitting in one of the meetings where this stuff is being delivered to ask directly, "What's the theory that the research behind this is based on?" >> >> In a bottom-up, member-driven organization like a union (a good one), the theory behind what is being proposed has to be lying right out on the table in the middle of the discussion for everyone to see and discuss. Everyone who is part of the decision-making process has to be able to put their hands on it in some way. >> >> A different take on this: While this discussion was starting up on XMCA, I happened to be reading the May 2014 issue of the Clarion, the newspaper of the Professional Staff Congress of CUNY. On page 5 there's an article that is related to this discussion and should be of interest to people in education faculties. There's a new teacher certification exam in NY called "edTPA." The evaluation of the results of this test has been outsourced to Pearson Inc., the for-profit education "reform" corporation. A professor (Ruth Powers Silverberg) who attended a meeting about the implementation of edPTA asked about the research it was based on and was told that she could find it on the website. "I went to the website," says the article, "where I found eight articles. One of them was about edTPA. The other seven were on a variety of topics and all but one article had been authored by the creators of edTPA." >> >> I'm mentioning this because this article about what theory is NOT is a good tool for challenging some of the rip-offs that are taking place in what is now being referred to as the "education reform movement." It's such a big thing that it's being called a movement, not just individual tweaks and fiddles with individual school and community college districts. >> >> Helena >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> 21 San Mateo Road >> Berkeley, CA 94707 >> 510-828-2745 >> >> On Jun 16, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Sobering reading, especially interesting to read the views of editors from a very different scientific tradition. >>> The type of non-theory manuscript I have found very disappointing in our discipline is typified by one I read recently. >>> The authors described a case study, which involved no intervention by the authors, and no pathology: the subject successfully lived through a challenging period in their life, that's all. The authors simply pinned high-falutin labels to various events and relations or cited references to other writers as the story went along. I admit that I was so offended by the fact that all the labels were garbled and the references inappropriate, that I had failed to notice that even if the labels had been correctly applied and teh references appropriate, the paper would still have been without content! >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen wrote: >>>> Mike, i really appreciate your sending this out. I read it pretty carefully this morning and will read it again. I know that I'm not an adept swimmer in this particular pond, (lake or bay would be more like it) but the guidelines put forth in this article are definitely things I contend with. >>>> >>>> Thanks -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Helena Worthen >>>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Paper attached for those unable to open. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Tue Jun 17 15:33:11 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 18:33:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB?= =?utf-8?b?0YLQvtGA0LjRjyDQv9GB0LjRhdC+0LvQvtCz0LjQuF0gVXBsb2FkZWQgV2hh?= =?utf-8?q?t_theory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hello -- The paper Mike posted is from the Administrative Science Quarterly, put out by the Cornell Grad School of Management, and seems to be written from the world of Organizational Behavior or OB, which is taught in business schools and in Human Resources programs. OB theories are used mostly by management and management consultants to study and strengthen the organizations of business enterprises. These theories come out of psychology but don't draw from learning theory and Vygotsky, from what I can tell from my exposure to them. They are also closely connected in practice with human capital theory which comes out of economics. The reason why this matters to me is because OB consultants sometimes get hired by labor unions. They apply their theories about how organizations work to a different context. If the theory is strong, it ought to survive across another context, right? OB consultants do have a lot of things to say about strengthening organizations generally, but a labor union is not a business and ultimately, some of what they propose is often inappropriate. Worst case is that the organization gets re-shaped as a business. If the theory that shapes the consultant's plan is not clear and transparent, the leadership will spend money and get committed to a plan without actually understanding what they are implementing. The consultant's theoretical assumptions may even be viewed as the magic box of tools that are the capital of the consultant, complete with jargon and in some cases copyrighted materials). The membership DEFINITELY does not learn, critique, question, develop, use the theories. They are the object on which the theories get implemented. Long term, this is a waste of money. This is the context in which I admire seeing the fluff and fizzle that passes for "theory" get blown away. I like to think that if some actions are going to be carried out on the basis of some theoretically-grounded proposal, the people on whom they are getting carried out should be in full possession of the theory. In my experience as a labor educator, this can be done. I''ll bet that it can also be done in K-12 classrooms. Certainly in post-secondary contexts. And if the theory can't be explained clearly, then someone has a clean-up job to do. Helena Worthen 21 San Mateo Road Berkeley, CA 94707 hworthen@illinois.edu On Jun 16, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Just to add: In the professions, theoretical training is not very strong because the focus is on hands-on thinking. The article is evidently written for researchers in the professions rather than the sciences. At least, this is my perception. > > Lubomir > > Lubomir Popov, PhD > School of Family and Consumer Sciences > American Culture Studies Affiliated Faculty > Bowling Green State University > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:05 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] Uploaded What theory is not.pdf > > David -- > > I wouldn't be so severe as to say that you're being compulsively cynical, but I would say that your comments are a bit on the tough side. > > This article (which is showing up on my subject line in Cyrillic) is one of those code-breakers that may seem unnecessary to those for whom the information is obvious, but it essential for those who haven't run into anyone who could step aside for a moment and pass along the key secrets. It reminds me of a message sent out on XMCA about 20 years ago -- is that possible? -- by Chris Argyris about how to behave with ones colleagues on email. These are things that if no one says them out loud, they are expensive to learn through trial and error. > > > Helena Worthen > hworthen@illinois.edu > helenaworthen@gmail.com > > On Jun 15, 2014, at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Mike: >> >> This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole >> idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for >> anybody who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and >> Vygotsky's critique of Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the >> idea that "why" questions and a focus on causality is a hallmark of >> theory essentially writes off the whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, >> structuralism and post-structuralism. You might not agree with this >> line of thought and body of work, but to deny it status as theory seems pointless. >> >> I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers who >> repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles >> by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. >> There are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. >> reviews, pub discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. >> Or am I being compulsively cynical? >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: >> >>> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number >>> of issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >>> I am forwarding from >>> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >>> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >>> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> [image: Ilya Garber] >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >>> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >>> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> Ilya >>> Garber >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >>> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >>> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> 10:02am >>> Jun 14 >>> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? >>> ????????????? ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >>> Must read. >>> What theory is not.pdf >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is% >>> 20not.pdf >>>> >>> >>> View Post on Facebook >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >>> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >>> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>> >>> ? Edit Email Settings >>> < >>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_ >>> notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395 >>> aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.co >>> m >>>> >>> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >>> > > > From Stephenson@uhcl.edu Wed Jun 18 16:20:58 2014 From: Stephenson@uhcl.edu (Stephenson, Hunter W.) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 23:20:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: play, performance, and human development In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <91CE0BDAC772114688608E730AB60369A51B74E3@EXMBX2.uhcl.edu> Interesting? Yes. The intellectual foundation of Dr. Holzman's talk appears to be cultural-historical psychology/activity theory. If that's true, then how does the thesis presented here accord with, say, Leontiev (1981) who suggests the following: Play is characterised by its motive's lying in the process itself rather than in the result of the action. For a child playing with wooden bricks, for example, the motive for the play does not lie in building a structure, but in the doing, i.e. in the content of the action itself. That is true not only of the preschool child's play but also of any real game in general. 'Not to win but to play' is the general formula of the motivation of play. In adults' games, therefore, in which winning rather than playing becomes the inner motive, the game as such ceased to be play (p. 370). In other words (or my read perhaps), Leont'ev introduces the idea of motive, linking motive with the importance of play and differentiating the play of children from the games of adults based on the orientation of that motive. That is, child's play is motivated by the process while adults' games are motivated by the outcome. Do adults play or do they game? Do they do both? When? Why? If they "only" game, then what is the impact on/importance to adult learning? adult development? Long time reader/first time poster, Hunter ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 1:21 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu) Subject: [Xmca-l] play, performance, and human development Lois Holzman sent me this link to a TED talk she gave on the role of play in human development....possibly of interest to some? TED talk From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Wed Jun 18 17:03:45 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 20:03:45 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Playing with/at TED Message-ID: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> Hi All, Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx event?TEDxNavesink Play. Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done (staying within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying something new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with folks who appreciate and value play?many of whom are affording people in their communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect with Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day event was organized are 4 P's?possibility, pleasure, progress and paradox. I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation here?even though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project From carolmacdon@gmail.com Thu Jun 19 00:02:25 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 08:02:25 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Louis Please could you send the link again? Thanks Carol On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman wrote: > Hi All, > Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > event--TEDxNavesink Play. > Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done (staying > within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying something > new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with folks > who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in their > communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect with > Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day > event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and paradox. > I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation here--even > though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. > Lois > > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Thu Jun 19 05:48:27 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 08:48:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Here's the link, Carol. http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Louis > > Please could you send the link again? > > Thanks > Carol > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done (staying >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying something >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with folks >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in their >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect with >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and paradox. >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation here--even >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. >> Lois >> >> >> >> Lois Holzman >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> 104-106 South Oxford Street >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> Social Media >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >> Blogs >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >> Websites >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >> All Stars Project >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Jun 19 06:32:06 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 09:32:06 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?W9Cc0LXRgtC+0LTQvtC70L7Qs9C40Y8g0Lgg0LjRgdGC0L4=?= =?utf-8?b?0YDQuNGPINC/0YHQuNGF0L7Qu9C+0LPQuNC4XSBVcGxvYWRlZCBXaGF0IHRo?= =?utf-8?q?eory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Helena, What you just wrote resonate with me in so many ways that I could not help but express my agreement publicly. What you mention is also a symptom that psychology is not a unified discipline but many branches which lack an integrative ground, with many of them exposed to their own internal fads. David On Jun 17, 2014, at 6:33 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > Hello -- > > The paper Mike posted is from the Administrative Science Quarterly, put out by the Cornell Grad School of Management, and seems to be written from the world of Organizational Behavior or OB, which is taught in business schools and in Human Resources programs. OB theories are used mostly by management and management consultants to study and strengthen the organizations of business enterprises. These theories come out of psychology but don't draw from learning theory and Vygotsky, from what I can tell from my exposure to them. They are also closely connected in practice with human capital theory which comes out of economics. > > The reason why this matters to me is because OB consultants sometimes get hired by labor unions. They apply their theories about how organizations work to a different context. If the theory is strong, it ought to survive across another context, right? OB consultants do have a lot of things to say about strengthening organizations generally, but a labor union is not a business and ultimately, some of what they propose is often inappropriate. Worst case is that the organization gets re-shaped as a business. > > If the theory that shapes the consultant's plan is not clear and transparent, the leadership will spend money and get committed to a plan without actually understanding what they are implementing. The consultant's theoretical assumptions may even be viewed as the magic box of tools that are the capital of the consultant, complete with jargon and in some cases copyrighted materials). The membership DEFINITELY does not learn, critique, question, develop, use the theories. They are the object on which the theories get implemented. Long term, this is a waste of money. > > This is the context in which I admire seeing the fluff and fizzle that passes for "theory" get blown away. I like to think that if some actions are going to be carried out on the basis of some theoretically-grounded proposal, the people on whom they are getting carried out should be in full possession of the theory. In my experience as a labor educator, this can be done. I''ll bet that it can also be done in K-12 classrooms. Certainly in post-secondary contexts. And if the theory can't be explained clearly, then someone has a clean-up job to do. > > Helena Worthen > 21 San Mateo Road > Berkeley, CA 94707 > hworthen@illinois.edu > > On Jun 16, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > >> Just to add: In the professions, theoretical training is not very strong because the focus is on hands-on thinking. The article is evidently written for researchers in the professions rather than the sciences. At least, this is my perception. >> >> Lubomir >> >> Lubomir Popov, PhD >> School of Family and Consumer Sciences >> American Culture Studies Affiliated Faculty >> Bowling Green State University >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:05 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] Uploaded What theory is not.pdf >> >> David -- >> >> I wouldn't be so severe as to say that you're being compulsively cynical, but I would say that your comments are a bit on the tough side. >> >> This article (which is showing up on my subject line in Cyrillic) is one of those code-breakers that may seem unnecessary to those for whom the information is obvious, but it essential for those who haven't run into anyone who could step aside for a moment and pass along the key secrets. It reminds me of a message sent out on XMCA about 20 years ago -- is that possible? -- by Chris Argyris about how to behave with ones colleagues on email. These are things that if no one says them out loud, they are expensive to learn through trial and error. >> >> >> Helena Worthen >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> helenaworthen@gmail.com >> >> On Jun 15, 2014, at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Mike: >>> >>> This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole >>> idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for >>> anybody who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and >>> Vygotsky's critique of Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the >>> idea that "why" questions and a focus on causality is a hallmark of >>> theory essentially writes off the whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, >>> structuralism and post-structuralism. You might not agree with this >>> line of thought and body of work, but to deny it status as theory seems pointless. >>> >>> I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers who >>> repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles >>> by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. >>> There are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. >>> reviews, pub discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. >>> Or am I being compulsively cynical? >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number >>>> of issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >>>> I am forwarding from >>>> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? < >>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >>>> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >>>> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> [image: Ilya Garber] >>>> < >>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >>>> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >>>> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> Ilya >>>> Garber >>>> < >>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >>>> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >>>> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> 10:02am >>>> Jun 14 >>>> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? >>>> ????????????? ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >>>> Must read. >>>> What theory is not.pdf >>>> < >>>> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is% >>>> 20not.pdf >>>>> >>>> >>>> View Post on Facebook >>>> < >>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >>>> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >>>> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> ? Edit Email Settings >>>> < >>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_ >>>> notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395 >>>> aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>>> >>>> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >>>> >> >> >> > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Jun 19 12:32:41 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 15:32:41 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?W9Cc0LXRgtC+0LTQvtC70L7Qs9C40Y8g0Lgg0LjRgdGC0L4=?= =?utf-8?b?0YDQuNGPINC/0YHQuNGF0L7Qu9C+0LPQuNC4XSBVcGxvYWRlZCBXaGF0IHRo?= =?utf-8?q?eory_is_not=2Epdf?= In-Reply-To: References: <776439485741643-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> <364b1c2048af4f4e8de2b4f669b00fcf@CO2PR0501MB855.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <493F5AF4-0577-4A3E-B90A-7019289E034F@gmail.com> David - That "integrative ground" would be theory, wouldn't it? Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 19, 2014, at 9:32 AM, David Preiss wrote: > Hi Helena, > What you just wrote resonate with me in so many ways that I could not help but express my agreement publicly. What you mention is also a symptom that psychology is not a unified discipline but many branches which lack an integrative ground, with many of them exposed to their own internal fads. > David > > On Jun 17, 2014, at 6:33 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > >> Hello -- >> >> The paper Mike posted is from the Administrative Science Quarterly, put out by the Cornell Grad School of Management, and seems to be written from the world of Organizational Behavior or OB, which is taught in business schools and in Human Resources programs. OB theories are used mostly by management and management consultants to study and strengthen the organizations of business enterprises. These theories come out of psychology but don't draw from learning theory and Vygotsky, from what I can tell from my exposure to them. They are also closely connected in practice with human capital theory which comes out of economics. >> >> The reason why this matters to me is because OB consultants sometimes get hired by labor unions. They apply their theories about how organizations work to a different context. If the theory is strong, it ought to survive across another context, right? OB consultants do have a lot of things to say about strengthening organizations generally, but a labor union is not a business and ultimately, some of what they propose is often inappropriate. Worst case is that the organization gets re-shaped as a business. >> >> If the theory that shapes the consultant's plan is not clear and transparent, the leadership will spend money and get committed to a plan without actually understanding what they are implementing. The consultant's theoretical assumptions may even be viewed as the magic box of tools that are the capital of the consultant, complete with jargon and in some cases copyrighted materials). The membership DEFINITELY does not learn, critique, question, develop, use the theories. They are the object on which the theories get implemented. Long term, this is a waste of money. >> >> This is the context in which I admire seeing the fluff and fizzle that passes for "theory" get blown away. I like to think that if some actions are going to be carried out on the basis of some theoretically-grounded proposal, the people on whom they are getting carried out should be in full possession of the theory. In my experience as a labor educator, this can be done. I''ll bet that it can also be done in K-12 classrooms. Certainly in post-secondary contexts. And if the theory can't be explained clearly, then someone has a clean-up job to do. >> >> Helena Worthen >> 21 San Mateo Road >> Berkeley, CA 94707 >> hworthen@illinois.edu >> >> On Jun 16, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >> >>> Just to add: In the professions, theoretical training is not very strong because the focus is on hands-on thinking. The article is evidently written for researchers in the professions rather than the sciences. At least, this is my perception. >>> >>> Lubomir >>> >>> Lubomir Popov, PhD >>> School of Family and Consumer Sciences >>> American Culture Studies Affiliated Faculty >>> Bowling Green State University >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Helena Worthen >>> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:05 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] Uploaded What theory is not.pdf >>> >>> David -- >>> >>> I wouldn't be so severe as to say that you're being compulsively cynical, but I would say that your comments are a bit on the tough side. >>> >>> This article (which is showing up on my subject line in Cyrillic) is one of those code-breakers that may seem unnecessary to those for whom the information is obvious, but it essential for those who haven't run into anyone who could step aside for a moment and pass along the key secrets. It reminds me of a message sent out on XMCA about 20 years ago -- is that possible? -- by Chris Argyris about how to behave with ones colleagues on email. These are things that if no one says them out loud, they are expensive to learn through trial and error. >>> >>> >>> Helena Worthen >>> hworthen@illinois.edu >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2014, at 1:31 AM, David Kellogg wrote: >>> >>>> Mike: >>>> >>>> This article struck me as theoretically naive. First of all, the whole >>>> idea of articles without theory is a little silly, particularly for >>>> anybody who has taken Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech and >>>> Vygotsky's critique of Piaget's atheoretism on board. Secondly, the >>>> idea that "why" questions and a focus on causality is a hallmark of >>>> theory essentially writes off the whole of Dilthey, descriptivism, >>>> structuralism and post-structuralism. You might not agree with this >>>> line of thought and body of work, but to deny it status as theory seems pointless. >>>> >>>> I must admit, though, the whole genre of editors and reviewers who >>>> repackage as articles their complaints about having to review articles >>>> by professors who are desperate to publish is rather puzzling to me. >>>> There are plenty of other channels for this sort of thing, e.g. >>>> reviews, pub discussions, and even xmca. But perhaps they too are desperate to publish. >>>> Or am I being compulsively cynical? >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15 June 2014 02:13, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I recommend this paper on what theory is not. It touches on a number >>>>> of issues that we encounter a good deal in reviewing manuscripts sent to MCA. >>>>> I am forwarding from >>>>> Ilya Garber's discussion group with thanks to Ilya for posting. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? < >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >>>>> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >>>>> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> [image: Ilya Garber] >>>>> < >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >>>>> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >>>>> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> Ilya >>>>> Garber >>>>> < >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1202221848&aref=354957658& >>>>> medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399 >>>>> .AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> 10:02am >>>>> Jun 14 >>>>> ??????????? ? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?????????? ???? >>>>> ????????????? ??????. ??? ??????? ? ????? ????????? ?????????, ??? ?? ???????? ???????. >>>>> Must read. >>>>> What theory is not.pdf >>>>> < >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/download/682318241852537/What%20theory%20is% >>>>> 20not.pdf >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> View Post on Facebook >>>>> < >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2F505367082848886%2F77643948574164 >>>>> 3%2F&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395aG96Gba2 >>>>> 4&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> ? Edit Email Settings >>>>> < >>>>> https://www.facebook.com/n/?settings&tab=notifications§ion=group_ >>>>> notification&aref=354957658&medium=email&mid=a067d84G3212ac93G1528395 >>>>> aG96Gba24&bcode=1.1402765399.AblhaHTp27u9ny_P&n_m=lchcmike%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>>> >>>>> ? Reply to this email to add a comment. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Thu Jun 19 12:57:34 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:57:34 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Well Lois That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. Carol On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman wrote: > Here's the link, Carol. > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > wrote: > > > Louis > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > Thanks > > Carol > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > wrote: > > > >> Hi All, > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > (staying > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > something > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with > folks > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > their > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect > with > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > paradox. > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > here--even > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. > >> Lois > >> > >> > >> > >> Lois Holzman > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >> Social Media > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >> Blogs > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >> Websites > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >> All Stars Project > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Thu Jun 19 14:03:03 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 22:03:03 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I did not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of the 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know that I'm fooling myself. We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, Tom Richardson Middlesbrough UK On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Well Lois > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > Carol > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > wrote: > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > Lois Holzman > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > Social Media > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > Blogs > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > Websites > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > wrote: > > > > > Louis > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi All, > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > (staying > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > something > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with > > folks > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > > their > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect > > with > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > paradox. > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > here--even > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > many. > > >> Lois > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Lois Holzman > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > >> Social Media > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > >> Blogs > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > >> Websites > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > >> All Stars Project > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 01:23:26 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 09:23:26 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: It's conflict *within *rather than conflict *without* and *across *that Lois is busy dealing with. If you are going to be so critical, the least you could do is provide and alternative analysis that is at least as creative. Carol On 19 June 2014 22:03, Tom Richardson wrote: > A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I did > not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of the > 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the > lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment > and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know > that I'm fooling myself. > We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough > UK > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > Well Lois > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > Carol > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > wrote: > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > Social Media > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > Blogs > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > Websites > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > > (staying > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > something > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > with > > > folks > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > > > their > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > was > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > reconnect > > > with > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > one-day > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > > paradox. > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > here--even > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > > many. > > > >> Lois > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > >> Social Media > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > >> Blogs > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > >> Websites > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > >> All Stars Project > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From s.franklin08@btinternet.com Fri Jun 20 03:55:33 2014 From: s.franklin08@btinternet.com (Shirley Franklin) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 11:55:33 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <7D04A706-FB32-4F4F-A9EB-0CC759E38C9B@btinternet.com> And I guess this conflict due to the oppression of capitalism. Capitalism won?t be overthrown by Lois' work, but it could strengthen people to deal with and know about themselves, and know about Capitalism, and hence progress to be involved in its overthrow, which would be through joint collaborative activity. This work is important, individuals are important, and as revolutionaries we shouldn?t degrade it. Shirley On 20 Jun 2014, at 09:23, Carol Macdonald wrote: > It's conflict *within *rather than conflict *without* and *across *that > Lois is busy dealing with. > > If you are going to be so critical, the least you could do is provide and > alternative analysis that is at least as creative. > > Carol > > > On 19 June 2014 22:03, Tom Richardson > wrote: > >> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I did >> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of the >> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the >> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from >> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's >> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment >> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know >> that I'm fooling myself. >> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and >> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, >> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, >> >> Tom Richardson >> Middlesbrough >> UK >> >> >> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: >> >>> Well Lois >>> >>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >>> >>> Carol >>> >>> >>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Here's the link, Carol. >>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>>> >>>> Lois Holzman >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>> Social Media >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>> Blogs >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>> Websites >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>> All Stars Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Louis >>>>> >>>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Carol >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done >>>> (staying >>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>>> something >>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be >> with >>>> folks >>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in >>>> their >>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It >> was >>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to >> reconnect >>>> with >>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The >> one-day >>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and >>>> paradox. >>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>>> here--even >>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for >>> many. >>>>>> Lois >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>> Social Media >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>> Blogs >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>> Websites >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>> Developmental psycholinguist >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>> >> > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:04:35 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:04:35 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Well Lois > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > Carol > > What do you mean by "serious", Carol? This is a TED talk. Seriousness and critical thinking are not part of the agenda. Best, Huw > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > wrote: > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > Lois Holzman > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > Social Media > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > Blogs > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > Websites > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > wrote: > > > > > Louis > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi All, > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > (staying > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > something > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with > > folks > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > > their > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect > > with > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > paradox. > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > here--even > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > many. > > >> Lois > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Lois Holzman > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > >> Social Media > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > >> Blogs > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > >> Websites > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > >> All Stars Project > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:53:56 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 09:53:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <35D3EBD8-C751-4BBB-AD9F-6B5E7D97532A@gmail.com> Carol et al: Thanks for insisting that we watch this. This contribution to the xmca conversation follows well from the recent discussion of the article Mike posted about what is NOT theory. This is a brief, clear presentation intended to get people thinking and give them some contrasting, vivid examples to feed that thinking. She does not get into the theory behind her argument -- her argument being that through "play" with others, people create and become themselves, and that this not only happens with babies and children but also with communities, workforces and polarized social groups. One could say that what Lois is doing is re-defining play without telling us why and then calling it "revolutionary". I don't think that matters. I personally am impressed by how she manages to stay on topic, proceed from one point to the next and keep a relaxed, personal tone of voice all the while standing on that red dot in the spotlight. That's a performance, right there. So just taking what she says and working backwards towards what might undergird her argument, I would say that it looks as if play, according to the examples she provides, has certain consistent characteristics. One, it's collective. The oncology nurses, the Chinese elementary school teachers, and the police and NY teenagers are not playing alone, they are playing with each other and in fact engaging in a process of learning to play together. Second, it's conscious -- it's a performance, in which people see and are seen and respond to what they are mutually communicating. That is, it's intentionally dialectical. Third, although all three examples are of groups that are initially defined as a workforce (nurses, teachers, police/kids), it is separate from work. They are not being "productive" (although they may be more productive workers when they go back to their jobs). But for these exercises, they are off the job, engaged in something that does not directly make money. So what if (and I'm sort of playing, here) I said that Lois is implicitly defining play as activity that is collective, dialectical and outside the profit nexus? Come to think of it, that definition would be what distinguishes it from the collective competence exercises described in Boreham, Fischer and Samurcay, Work Process Knowledge, where firefighters or submariners prepare for emergency situations through role plays. What do people think? Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu On Jun 20, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > >> Well Lois >> >> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >> >> Carol >> >> > What do you mean by "serious", Carol? This is a TED talk. Seriousness and > critical thinking are not part of the agenda. > > Best, > Huw > > >> >> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >> wrote: >> >>> Here's the link, Carol. >>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>> >>> Lois Holzman >>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>> Social Media >>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>> Blogs >>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>> Websites >>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>> All Stars Project >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Louis >>>> >>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Carol >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done >>> (staying >>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>> something >>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with >>> folks >>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in >>> their >>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was >>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect >>> with >>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day >>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and >>> paradox. >>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>> here--even >>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for >> many. >>>>> Lois >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>> Social Media >>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>> Blogs >>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>> Websites >>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>> All Stars Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >> Developmental psycholinguist >> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >> From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:57:05 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:57:05 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: I meant that the the members of our community are serious. Is Lois not capable of critical thinking? I have been involved in popularising theoretical concepts, does that make them less critical? Carol On 20 June 2014 14:04, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > Well Lois > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > Carol > > > > > What do you mean by "serious", Carol? This is a TED talk. Seriousness and > critical thinking are not part of the agenda. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > wrote: > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > Social Media > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > Blogs > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > Websites > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > > (staying > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > something > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > with > > > folks > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > > > their > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > was > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > reconnect > > > with > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > one-day > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > > paradox. > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > here--even > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > > many. > > > >> Lois > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > >> Social Media > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > >> Blogs > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > >> Websites > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > >> All Stars Project > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:59:20 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:59:20 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <35D3EBD8-C751-4BBB-AD9F-6B5E7D97532A@gmail.com> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <35D3EBD8-C751-4BBB-AD9F-6B5E7D97532A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh Helena - I posted my comment to Huw just before your message came through, and you did just such a balanced job of analysis. Thank you. Carol On 20 June 2014 14:53, Helena Worthen wrote: > Carol et al: > > Thanks for insisting that we watch this. > > This contribution to the xmca conversation follows well from the recent > discussion of the article Mike posted about what is NOT theory. This is a > brief, clear presentation intended to get people thinking and give them > some contrasting, vivid examples to feed that thinking. She does not get > into the theory behind her argument -- her argument being that through > "play" with others, people create and become themselves, and that this not > only happens with babies and children but also with communities, workforces > and polarized social groups. > > One could say that what Lois is doing is re-defining play without telling > us why and then calling it "revolutionary". I don't think that matters. I > personally am impressed by how she manages to stay on topic, proceed from > one point to the next and keep a relaxed, personal tone of voice all the > while standing on that red dot in the spotlight. That's a performance, > right there. > > So just taking what she says and working backwards towards what might > undergird her argument, I would say that it looks as if play, according to > the examples she provides, has certain consistent characteristics. One, > it's collective. The oncology nurses, the Chinese elementary school > teachers, and the police and NY teenagers are not playing alone, they are > playing with each other and in fact engaging in a process of learning to > play together. Second, it's conscious -- it's a performance, in which > people see and are seen and respond to what they are mutually > communicating. That is, it's intentionally dialectical. Third, although all > three examples are of groups that are initially defined as a workforce > (nurses, teachers, police/kids), it is separate from work. They are not > being "productive" (although they may be more productive workers when they > go back to their jobs). But for these exercises, they are off the job, > engaged in something that does not directly make money. > > So what if (and I'm sort of playing, here) I said that Lois is implicitly > defining play as activity that is collective, dialectical and outside the > profit nexus? > > Come to think of it, that definition would be what distinguishes it from > the collective competence exercises described in Boreham, Fischer and > Samurcay, Work Process Knowledge, where firefighters or submariners prepare > for emergency situations through role plays. > > What do people think? > > Helena Worthen > helenaworthen@gmail.com > hworthen@illinois.edu > > On Jun 20, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > >> Well Lois > >> > >> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > >> > >> Carol > >> > >> > > What do you mean by "serious", Carol? This is a TED talk. Seriousness > and > > critical thinking are not part of the agenda. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > >> > >> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Here's the link, Carol. > >>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > >>> > >>> Lois Holzman > >>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>> Social Media > >>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>> Blogs > >>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>> Websites > >>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>> All Stars Project > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Louis > >>>> > >>>> Please could you send the link again? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks > >>>> Carol > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi All, > >>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > >>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > >>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > >>> (staying > >>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > >>> something > >>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with > >>> folks > >>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > >>> their > >>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > >>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > reconnect > >>> with > >>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > one-day > >>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > >>> paradox. > >>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > >>> here--even > >>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > >> many. > >>>>> Lois > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Lois Holzman > >>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>>> Social Media > >>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>>> Blogs > >>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>>> Websites > >>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>>> All Stars Project > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >>>> Developmental psycholinguist > >>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >> Developmental psycholinguist > >> Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >> > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 07:26:58 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:26:58 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: On 20 June 2014 14:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > I meant that the the members of our community are serious. > > Is Lois not capable of critical thinking? I have been involved in > popularising theoretical concepts, does that make them less critical? > Well, a theoretical concept is only theoretical if you embrace it theoretically. In the mode of popularising it may indeed lose its significance until it is taken up as an object of inquiry. TED is not a platform for such inquiry. Hence the consequences of medium ("not being academic but saying something new") and message (theoretical content not treated as such). When I watched some of the video, I got the impression that play was being overdone somewhat, but there's no forum for engaging critically with the content itself, because that is not what the forum is about. Hope that helps, Huw > > Carol > > > On 20 June 2014 14:04, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > > > Well Lois > > > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > What do you mean by "serious", Carol? This is a TED talk. Seriousness > and > > critical thinking are not part of the agenda. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > Social Media > > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > Blogs > > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > Websites > > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > > > (staying > > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > > something > > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > > with > > > > folks > > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people > in > > > > their > > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > > was > > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > > reconnect > > > > with > > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > > one-day > > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > > > paradox. > > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > > here--even > > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > > > many. > > > > >> Lois > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > >> Social Media > > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > >> Blogs > > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > >> Websites > > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > >> All Stars Project > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Fri Jun 20 07:36:09 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:36:09 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <7D04A706-FB32-4F4F-A9EB-0CC759E38C9B@btinternet.com> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <7D04A706-FB32-4F4F-A9EB-0CC759E38C9B@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Read carefully, my criticism, far from degrading Lois work (and superb TEDpiece), extols its appeal and usefulness as a tool in developing possible new ways of coming together to change our capacity for agency, within the labour opposition to capital. It is within the totality of capitalist social relations that I question its effectiveness at any deep level. While I did not wish to attack or offend deliberately, I feel that the limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no matter how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same effect upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern bourgeois society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, straightforwardly to convey. Tom On 20 June 2014 11:55, Shirley Franklin wrote: > And I guess this conflict due to the oppression of capitalism. Capitalism > won?t be overthrown by Lois' work, but it could strengthen people to deal > with and know about themselves, and know about Capitalism, and hence > progress to be involved in its overthrow, which would be through joint > collaborative activity. > > This work is important, individuals are important, and as revolutionaries > we shouldn?t degrade it. > > Shirley > On 20 Jun 2014, at 09:23, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > It's conflict *within *rather than conflict *without* and *across *that > > Lois is busy dealing with. > > > > If you are going to be so critical, the least you could do is provide and > > alternative analysis that is at least as creative. > > > > Carol > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 22:03, Tom Richardson > > wrote: > > > >> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I > did > >> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of > the > >> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the > >> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > >> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > >> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment > >> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know > >> that I'm fooling myself. > >> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > >> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > >> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > >> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > >> > >> Tom Richardson > >> Middlesbrough > >> UK > >> > >> > >> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > >> > >>> Well Lois > >>> > >>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > >>> > >>> Carol > >>> > >>> > >>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Here's the link, Carol. > >>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > >>>> > >>>> Lois Holzman > >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>> Social Media > >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>> Blogs > >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>> Websites > >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>> All Stars Project > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Louis > >>>>> > >>>>> Please could you send the link again? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks > >>>>> Carol > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi All, > >>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > >>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > >>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > >>>> (staying > >>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > >>>> something > >>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > >> with > >>>> folks > >>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > >>>> their > >>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > >> was > >>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > >> reconnect > >>>> with > >>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > >> one-day > >>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > >>>> paradox. > >>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > >>>> here--even > >>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > >>> many. > >>>>>> Lois > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Lois Holzman > >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>>>> Social Media > >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>>>> Blogs > >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>>>> Websites > >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>>>> All Stars Project > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >>>>> Developmental psycholinguist > >>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >>> Developmental psycholinguist > >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 09:23:42 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 12:23:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <01605425-AB6B-4894-8722-7F5CDADE4C0C@gmail.com> Huw -- You're right, the TED forum is not a platform for critical engagement between theory and application of theory. It's a platform for provoking (hopefully) interest in things that are undergirded, behind the scenes, by theory. I do not agree that this makes the concept of play un-theoretical or that popularizing a concept divests it of significance, even theoretical significance. I do, however, believe that theory can be presented in a way that is broadly accessible and explicit. It's true that Lois does not try to do that. Helena Helena Worthen helenaworthen@gmail.com hworthen@illinois.edu On Jun 20, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 20 June 2014 14:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > >> I meant that the the members of our community are serious. >> >> Is Lois not capable of critical thinking? I have been involved in >> popularising theoretical concepts, does that make them less critical? >> > > Well, a theoretical concept is only theoretical if you embrace it > theoretically. In the mode of popularising it may indeed lose its > significance until it is taken up as an object of inquiry. > > TED is not a platform for such inquiry. Hence the consequences of medium ("not > being academic but saying something new") and message (theoretical content > not treated as such). > > When I watched some of the video, I got the impression that play was being > overdone somewhat, but there's no forum for engaging critically with the > content itself, because that is not what the forum is about. > > Hope that helps, > Huw > > >> >> Carol >> >> >> On 20 June 2014 14:04, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: >>> >>>> Well Lois >>>> >>>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >>>> >>>> Carol >>>> >>>> >>> What do you mean by "serious", Carol? This is a TED talk. Seriousness >> and >>> critical thinking are not part of the agenda. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here's the link, Carol. >>>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>>>> >>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>> Social Media >>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>> Blogs >>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>> Websites >>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>> All Stars Project >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Louis >>>>>> >>>>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> Carol >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done >>>>> (staying >>>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>>>> something >>>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be >>> with >>>>> folks >>>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people >> in >>>>> their >>>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It >>> was >>>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to >>> reconnect >>>>> with >>>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The >>> one-day >>>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and >>>>> paradox. >>>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>>>> here--even >>>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for >>>> many. >>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >> Developmental psycholinguist >> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >> From helenaworthen@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 09:35:51 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 12:35:51 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <7D04A706-FB32-4F4F-A9EB-0CC759E38C9B@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Tom -- ALL small groups? If you take the three characteristics that I pulled out from the examples in Lois' presentation -- that what we're looking at is collective,dialectical, and NOT (primarily) part of their paid job -- then don't these also describe all those small groupings of people where efforts to put the brakes on capitalism get started? Not that we're doing real well at that, so far. But the efforts that don't start there never get anywhere at all. Helena Helena Worthen hworthen@illinois.edu helenaworthen@gmail.com On Jun 20, 2014, at 10:36 AM, Tom Richardson wrote: > Read carefully, my criticism, far from degrading Lois work (and superb > TEDpiece), extols its appeal and usefulness as a tool in developing > possible new ways of coming together to change our capacity for agency, > within the labour opposition to capital. It is within the totality of > capitalist social relations that I question its effectiveness at any deep > level. > While I did not wish to attack or offend deliberately, I feel that the > limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no matter > how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same effect > upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern bourgeois > society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, > straightforwardly to convey. > Tom > > > On 20 June 2014 11:55, Shirley Franklin wrote: > >> And I guess this conflict due to the oppression of capitalism. Capitalism >> won?t be overthrown by Lois' work, but it could strengthen people to deal >> with and know about themselves, and know about Capitalism, and hence >> progress to be involved in its overthrow, which would be through joint >> collaborative activity. >> >> This work is important, individuals are important, and as revolutionaries >> we shouldn?t degrade it. >> >> Shirley >> On 20 Jun 2014, at 09:23, Carol Macdonald wrote: >> >>> It's conflict *within *rather than conflict *without* and *across *that >>> Lois is busy dealing with. >>> >>> If you are going to be so critical, the least you could do is provide and >>> alternative analysis that is at least as creative. >>> >>> Carol >>> >>> >>> On 19 June 2014 22:03, Tom Richardson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I >> did >>>> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of >> the >>>> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the >>>> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from >>>> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's >>>> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment >>>> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know >>>> that I'm fooling myself. >>>> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, >>>> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, >>>> >>>> Tom Richardson >>>> Middlesbrough >>>> UK >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well Lois >>>>> >>>>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >>>>> >>>>> Carol >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Here's the link, Carol. >>>>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>> Social Media >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>> Blogs >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>> Websites >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Louis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Carol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done >>>>>> (staying >>>>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>>>>> something >>>>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be >>>> with >>>>>> folks >>>>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in >>>>>> their >>>>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It >>>> was >>>>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to >>>> reconnect >>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The >>>> one-day >>>>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and >>>>>> paradox. >>>>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>>>>> here--even >>>>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for >>>>> many. >>>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>> Developmental psycholinguist >>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >> >> >> From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Jun 20 17:42:43 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:42:43 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every summer in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article "What Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that reason I found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the dialectical method is defining what things are by looking at what things are not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say that something is in the process of becoming what it is not. One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very clear view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not part of the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its content. I think the same thing is true when we say that children play constantly, from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and Vygotsky, of course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that very reason we cannot say it is the main activity). David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... dk On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson wrote: > A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I did > not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of the > 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the > lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment > and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know > that I'm fooling myself. > We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > > Tom Richardson > Middlesbrough > UK > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > Well Lois > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > Carol > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > wrote: > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > Social Media > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > Blogs > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > Websites > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > > (staying > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > something > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > with > > > folks > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > > > their > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > was > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > reconnect > > > with > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > one-day > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > > paradox. > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > here--even > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > > many. > > > >> Lois > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > >> Social Media > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > >> Blogs > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > >> Websites > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > >> All Stars Project > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > From achilles@delari.net Fri Jun 20 22:32:07 2014 From: achilles@delari.net (Achilles Delari Junior) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 02:32:07 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80-?= =?utf-8?b?0JrQvtGF0LHQsCAo15HXqCDXm9eV15vXkdeQ4oCOKV0uIEJlbGxhIG9yIHNv?= =?utf-8?q?mebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: 01605425-AB6B-4894-8722-7F5CDADE4C0C@gmail.com Message-ID: <53a518d7725e5_7277e7100309597c@a4-wakko3.mail> From achilles@delari.net Fri Jun 20 22:49:23 2014 From: achilles@delari.net (Achilles Delari Junior) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 02:49:23 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80-?= =?utf-8?b?0JrQvtGF0LHQsCAo15HXqCDXm9eV15vXkdeQ4oCOKV0uIEJlbGxhIG9yIHNv?= =?utf-8?q?mebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: 53a518d7725e5_7277e7100309597c@a4-wakko3.mail Message-ID: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> Please, dear professors, In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know something about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen and young thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, struggling for freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different situations of this kind touched by him in those newspaper publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) The Dekabrists; and (3) October Revolution. But what more deeply touch me is just the first one, because I really do not know nothing about, and seems to be very very important in Jewish long history for Land and Freedom. And, believe me or not, this is important for many people here in my country, not necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find more reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend your time with me. I will search better by myself.?Thank you, a lot. Achilles, from Brazil. From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 21 01:17:20 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:17:20 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBv?= =?utf-8?q?r_somebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> References: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> Message-ID: Achilles: Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography of Christ called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big scandal in the USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really revolutionary thing about the book, though, was that it tried to understand what Christ must have meant to the Jews of his time. Actually, there were hundreds of Christs--political leaders of the Jews who declared themselves Messiahs and tried to get rid of Roman rule, ending up crucified. Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the Romans were expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up for three years (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the Romans took Judea back, and murdered everybody even remotely connected with the successful rebellion. The Christians, who had never been sympathetic to the rebellion in the first place (because of course they had already had their Messiah) at this point became a strongly pro-Roman religion, and decided to convert non-Jews, eventually winning over the Emperor himself. As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation Theology" in Latin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred around the discovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the pro-Roman turn, Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed associated with someone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar Kochba. A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have been talking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses in his studies of attention and will is related to a traditional Jewish "Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior wrote: > Please, dear professors, > > > In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in > general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know something > about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen and young > thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, struggling for > freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different situations of this > kind touched by him in those newspaper publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) > The Dekabrists; and (3) October Revolution. But what more deeply touch me > is just the first one, because I really do not know nothing about, and > seems to be very very important in Jewish long history for Land and > Freedom. And, believe me or not, this is important for many people here in > my country, not necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find > more reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved > Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend > your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot. > > > Achilles, from Brazil. > > From achilles@delari.net Sat Jun 21 02:40:35 2014 From: achilles@delari.net (Achilles Delari Junior) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 06:40:35 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?_Re=3AAbout_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0?= =?utf-8?b?0YAt0JrQvtGF0LHQsCAo15HXqCDXm9eV15vXkdeQ4oCOKV0uIEJlbGxhIG9y?= =?utf-8?q?_somebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: CACwG6DvtrnnzuoMmSfPuGH+uOihXQftgH-cmiSa2A-ebFHaLnw@mail.gmail.com Message-ID: <53a553134f95_51fd1064502c418e5@a4-winter25.mail> Thank you very much David, All your explanation was very meaningful - and made me think about a lot of connections. I will try to learn more and better... "Personality development" as "way to freedom"... And how strong are we for became free, in such historical conditions? 3 years is very meaningful, but if there was no crucifying for that major military leader, there was a mass murder after. Seems to be a very difficult choice, with a great risk involved, more than an option by a card or another... But maybe, the situation with cards could be a kind of unit for more crucial volition acts in public/political life of entire nations... "Nothing to lost, except our chains" but really "nothing".... A real dramatical situation involving an actual act of will must have some kind of of lost... If not, there will no need to claim to a voluntary "give a step in front"... I apologize if take your time, with this detour in your line of discussion about play... Thank you very much. Achilles. ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? De: "David Kellogg" Em: S?bado 21 de Junho de 2014 05:18, Para: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me?Achilles:Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography ofChrist called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big scandal inthe USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really revolutionary thingabout the book, though, was that it tried to understand what Christ musthave meant to the Jews of his time. Actually, there were hundreds ofChrists--political leaders of the Jews who declared themselves Messiahs andtried to get rid of Roman rule, ending up crucified.Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the Romanswere expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up for threeyears (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the Romans took Judeaback, and murdered everybody even remotely connected with the successfulrebellion. The Christians, who had never been sympathetic to the rebellionin the first place (because of course they had already had their Messiah)at this point became a strongly pro-Roman religion, and decided to convertnon-Jews, eventually winning over the Emperor himself.As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation Theology" inLatin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred around thediscovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the pro-Roman turn,Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed associated withsomeone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar Kochba.A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have beentalking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses in hisstudies of attention and will is related to a traditional Jewish"Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba".David KelloggHankuk University of Foreign StudiesOn 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:> Please, dear professors,>>> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know something> about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen and young> thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, struggling for> freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different situations of this> kind touched by him in those newspaper publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2)> The Dekabrists; and (3) October Revolution. But what more deeply touch me> is just the first one, because I really do not know nothing about, and> seems to be very very important in Jewish long history for Land and> Freedom. And, believe me or not, this is important for many people here in> my country, not necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find> more reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend> your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot.>>> Achilles, from Brazil.>> From jana@xs4all.nl Sat Jun 21 08:27:38 2014 From: jana@xs4all.nl (Jan Aukes) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 17:27:38 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBvciBz?= =?utf-8?q?omebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> Message-ID: <942306AE-05E7-4B04-A924-945FD559CE63@xs4all.nl> David, Simon Bar Kochba as the real Christ? That seems to me quite a statement. > Op 21 jun. 2014 om 10:17 heeft David Kellogg het volgende geschreven: > > Achilles: > > Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography of > Christ called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big scandal in > the USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really revolutionary thing > about the book, though, was that it tried to understand what Christ must > have meant to the Jews of his time. Actually, there were hundreds of > Christs--political leaders of the Jews who declared themselves Messiahs and > tried to get rid of Roman rule, ending up crucified. > > Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the Romans > were expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up for three > years (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the Romans took Judea > back, and murdered everybody even remotely connected with the successful > rebellion. The Christians, who had never been sympathetic to the rebellion > in the first place (because of course they had already had their Messiah) > at this point became a strongly pro-Roman religion, and decided to convert > non-Jews, eventually winning over the Emperor himself. > > As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation Theology" in > Latin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred around the > discovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the pro-Roman turn, > Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed associated with > someone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar Kochba. > > A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have been > talking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses in his > studies of attention and will is related to a traditional Jewish > "Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > >> On 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior wrote: >> >> Please, dear professors, >> >> >> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in >> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know something >> about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen and young >> thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, struggling for >> freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different situations of this >> kind touched by him in those newspaper publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) >> The Dekabrists; and (3) October Revolution. But what more deeply touch me >> is just the first one, because I really do not know nothing about, and >> seems to be very very important in Jewish long history for Land and >> Freedom. And, believe me or not, this is important for many people here in >> my country, not necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find >> more reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved >> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend >> your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot. >> >> >> Achilles, from Brazil. >> >> From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Sat Jun 21 21:27:08 2014 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:27:08 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBv?= =?utf-8?q?r_somebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: <942306AE-05E7-4B04-A924-945FD559CE63@xs4all.nl> References: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> <942306AE-05E7-4B04-A924-945FD559CE63@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000c01cf8dd2$3b3b62f0$b1b228d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> "Quite a statement" is quite a compliment, as I see it. And thank you Achilles, for a question rooted in the text. In consideration of capitalism vs ? and Party? vs ? and being in "a patron"'s pocket versus standing for the little ones at all times, and everything we have talked about play and game here in this list, it seems that David's reference to a work that can be called "quite a statement" is worthy of discussion, framing, and debate, if that is called for, or at least response. Especially since we are also talking at the same time about a TED talk about play and the academic problems of framing problems. Vandy (Valerie) -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Aukes Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 0:28 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me? David, Simon Bar Kochba as the real Christ? That seems to me quite a statement. > Op 21 jun. 2014 om 10:17 heeft David Kellogg het volgende geschreven: > > Achilles: > > Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography > of Christ called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big > scandal in the USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really > revolutionary thing about the book, though, was that it tried to > understand what Christ must have meant to the Jews of his time. > Actually, there were hundreds of Christs--political leaders of the > Jews who declared themselves Messiahs and tried to get rid of Roman rule, ending up crucified. > > Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the > Romans were expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up > for three years (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the > Romans took Judea back, and murdered everybody even remotely connected > with the successful rebellion. The Christians, who had never been > sympathetic to the rebellion in the first place (because of course > they had already had their Messiah) at this point became a strongly > pro-Roman religion, and decided to convert non-Jews, eventually winning over the Emperor himself. > > As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation > Theology" in Latin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred > around the discovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the > pro-Roman turn, Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed > associated with someone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar Kochba. > > A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have > been talking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses > in his studies of attention and will is related to a traditional > Jewish "Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > >> On 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior wrote: >> >> Please, dear professors, >> >> >> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in >> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know >> something about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen >> and young thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, >> struggling for freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different >> situations of this kind touched by him in those newspaper >> publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) The Dekabrists; and (3) October >> Revolution. But what more deeply touch me is just the first one, >> because I really do not know nothing about, and seems to be very very >> important in Jewish long history for Land and Freedom. And, believe >> me or not, this is important for many people here in my country, not >> necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find more >> reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved >> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot. >> >> >> Achilles, from Brazil. >> >> From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Sat Jun 21 21:31:52 2014 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (valerie A. Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:31:52 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBv?= =?utf-8?q?r_somebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: <942306AE-05E7-4B04-A924-945FD559CE63@xs4all.nl> References: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> <942306AE-05E7-4B04-A924-945FD559CE63@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000d01cf8dd2$e43e9930$acbbcb90$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> "Quite a statement" is quite a compliment, as I see it. And thank you Achilles, for a question rooted in the text. In consideration of capitalism vs ? and Party? vs ? and being in "a patron"'s pocket and vested interests versus standing for the little ones at all times, and everything we have talked about play and game here in this list, it seems that David's reference to a work that can be called "quite a statement" is worthy of discussion, framing, and debate, if that is called for, or at least response. Especially since we are also talking at the same time about a TED talk about play and the academic problems of framing problems. Vandy (Valerie) -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Aukes Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 0:28 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me? David, Simon Bar Kochba as the real Christ? That seems to me quite a statement. > Op 21 jun. 2014 om 10:17 heeft David Kellogg het volgende geschreven: > > Achilles: > > Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography > of Christ called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big > scandal in the USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really > revolutionary thing about the book, though, was that it tried to > understand what Christ must have meant to the Jews of his time. > Actually, there were hundreds of Christs--political leaders of the > Jews who declared themselves Messiahs and tried to get rid of Roman rule, ending up crucified. > > Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the > Romans were expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up > for three years (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the > Romans took Judea back, and murdered everybody even remotely connected > with the successful rebellion. The Christians, who had never been > sympathetic to the rebellion in the first place (because of course > they had already had their Messiah) at this point became a strongly > pro-Roman religion, and decided to convert non-Jews, eventually winning over the Emperor himself. > > As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation > Theology" in Latin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred > around the discovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the > pro-Roman turn, Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed > associated with someone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar Kochba. > > A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have > been talking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses > in his studies of attention and will is related to a traditional > Jewish "Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > >> On 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior wrote: >> >> Please, dear professors, >> >> >> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in >> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know >> something about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen >> and young thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, >> struggling for freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different >> situations of this kind touched by him in those newspaper >> publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) The Dekabrists; and (3) October >> Revolution. But what more deeply touch me is just the first one, >> because I really do not know nothing about, and seems to be very very >> important in Jewish long history for Land and Freedom. And, believe >> me or not, this is important for many people here in my country, not >> necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find more >> reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved >> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot. >> >> >> Achilles, from Brazil. >> >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Jun 21 22:31:09 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:31:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter started? Mike On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg wrote: > I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every summer > in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be > murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: > > > http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ > > To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article "What > Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that reason I > found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the dialectical > method is defining what things are by looking at what things are > not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say that > something is in the process of becoming what it is not. > > One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very clear > view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to > policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty > good place to start. > > Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not part of > the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped > being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its > content. > > I think the same thing is true when we say that children play constantly, > from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and Vygotsky, of > course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that very > reason we cannot say it is the main activity). > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my > wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing > around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... > > dk > > > On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson > > wrote: > > > A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I > did > > not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of > the > > 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the > > lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > > working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > > destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment > > and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know > > that I'm fooling myself. > > We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > > ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > > > > Tom Richardson > > Middlesbrough > > UK > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald > wrote: > > > > > Well Lois > > > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > Social Media > > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > Blogs > > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > Websites > > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > > > (staying > > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > > something > > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > > with > > > > folks > > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people > in > > > > their > > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > > was > > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > > reconnect > > > > with > > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > > one-day > > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > > > paradox. > > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > > here--even > > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > > > many. > > > > >> Lois > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > >> Social Media > > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > >> Blogs > > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > >> Websites > > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > >> All Stars Project > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Jun 21 22:58:54 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 14:58:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBv?= =?utf-8?q?r_somebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: <000d01cf8dd2$e43e9930$acbbcb90$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> <942306AE-05E7-4B04-A924-945FD559CE63@xs4all.nl> <000d01cf8dd2$e43e9930$acbbcb90$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: Well, first of all, I should say that no blasphemy was intended (or, in my view, committed). The reason why Reza Alsan's book "Zealot" is so interesting is in fact that as a Muslim (actually, a lapsed fundamentalist Christian who returned to Islam) he approaches the subject quite historically. History, he reminds us, deals in probabilities; only faith is really about "really". Where there is no faith, there isn't any blasphemy either, and that applies to me as much as to Reza Aslan. In "The Problem of the Environment" (Vygotsky Reader) Vygotsky explains that ontogenetic development is unique in that the child is face to face with a complete form of development in the person of the mother, and this completed form of development helps guide the very first steps. No other kind of development (geological, biological, or sociocultural) is teleological in precisely this way. So it's useful to keep reminding ourselves that divine revelations to the contrary notwithstanding, the people of Christ's time didn't know that this illiterate and probably illegitimate son of a carpenter and a peasant girl would be the single most important religious figure in Western culture for the next two thousand years. Even those who followed him thought he was just the Messiah (the Messiah was necessarily human and not divine) and the key problem for all who knew him was either when or whether he was really going to re-establish the temple and, not incidentally, royal line of David and with it Hebrew sovereignty in Palestine. When he didn't, and was crucified instead, it was a big disappointment to everybody--including Christ himself ("My god, my god, why hast thou forsaken me"). The Christian Jews who survived Jesus were a little like the revolutionaries in Russia--there was an elite, educated emigre wing which spoke Greek (Peter and Paul) and then his friends and relatives back home (his brother James and the other apostles). Right from the beginning there was a lot of tension between the two wings: the elites (especially Paul) were really much more interested in non-Jews, while James insisted that you had to be Jewish to be a Christian. Thanks to the repression following the Bar Kochba rebellion, the elite wing won out (the locals were exterminated to a man, and some of the tortures that the Romans designed were extremely creative: flaying alive, braining children with stones--Rabbi Akiva was wrapped in wet wool before being burned at the stake so that it would last longer). The survival of an elite explains some otherwise curious facts about the gospels, such as the fact that they are written in Greek and the very sympathetic treatment of Pontius Pilate (the real Pilate was so bloodthirsty that the Emperor called him back to Rome to upbraid him for excessive enthusiasm!) Also, as the Liberation Theologians pointed out, it explains the conservatism of the institutional church, which still sits rather uncomfortably beside some of the actual pronouncements of Jesus. The "Bar Kochba" game concerns a prisoner who was brought, mortally wounded, before Bar Kochba. Bar Kochba wanted to find out which of his men had tortured him so as to punish him, but the man could not say "yes" or "no", hence the game "Don't Say Yes or No", and by extension Leontiev's "Forbidden Colors" game. Other versions of the Bar Kochba game apparently do allow Yes or No but no other answers--so they are rather like the English game "Twenty Questions" or "Animal, Mineral or Vegetable". One thing I missed in Lois's talk was a discussion of the element of violence in play, and especially in verbal play. There is this very interesting sequence of spoken data at the beginning of Mark Tappen's contribution to Packer and Tappen's edited volume of papers from AERA 1995 ("Cultural and Critical Perspectives on Human Development", SUNY Press) in which the child is explaining what he would do if he woke up and he was a girl. It's a long sequence--because the researcher is persistent--but it is essentially a sequence of one liners, most of which are violent or aggressive in some way and all of which are defensive or offensive. It is certainly play. But it is certainly not revolutionary or even clearly developmental, and one reason is that it lacks the element of convergence that we see in games like Bar Kochba. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies They thought that he was just another So I think On 22 June 2014 13:31, valerie A. Wilkinson wrote: > "Quite a statement" is quite a compliment, as I see it. And thank you > Achilles, for a question rooted in the text. In consideration of > capitalism vs ? and Party? vs ? and being in "a patron"'s pocket and vested > interests versus standing for the little ones at all times, and everything > we have talked about play and game here in this list, it seems that David's > reference to a work that can be called "quite a statement" is worthy of > discussion, framing, and debate, if that is called for, or at least > response. Especially since we are also talking at the same time about a TED > talk about play and the academic problems of framing problems. > Vandy (Valerie) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jan Aukes > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 0:28 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? > ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me? > > David, > Simon Bar Kochba as the real Christ? That seems to me quite a statement. > > > Op 21 jun. 2014 om 10:17 heeft David Kellogg het > volgende geschreven: > > > > Achilles: > > > > Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography > > of Christ called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big > > scandal in the USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really > > revolutionary thing about the book, though, was that it tried to > > understand what Christ must have meant to the Jews of his time. > > Actually, there were hundreds of Christs--political leaders of the > > Jews who declared themselves Messiahs and tried to get rid of Roman > rule, ending up crucified. > > > > Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the > > Romans were expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up > > for three years (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the > > Romans took Judea back, and murdered everybody even remotely connected > > with the successful rebellion. The Christians, who had never been > > sympathetic to the rebellion in the first place (because of course > > they had already had their Messiah) at this point became a strongly > > pro-Roman religion, and decided to convert non-Jews, eventually winning > over the Emperor himself. > > > > As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation > > Theology" in Latin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred > > around the discovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the > > pro-Roman turn, Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed > > associated with someone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar > Kochba. > > > > A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have > > been talking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses > > in his studies of attention and will is related to a traditional > > Jewish "Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba". > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > > > > >> On 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior > wrote: > >> > >> Please, dear professors, > >> > >> > >> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in > >> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know > >> something about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen > >> and young thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, > >> struggling for freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different > >> situations of this kind touched by him in those newspaper > >> publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) The Dekabrists; and (3) October > >> Revolution. But what more deeply touch me is just the first one, > >> because I really do not know nothing about, and seems to be very very > >> important in Jewish long history for Land and Freedom. And, believe > >> me or not, this is important for many people here in my country, not > >> necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find more > >> reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved > >> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend > your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot. > >> > >> > >> Achilles, from Brazil. > >> > >> > > > > > > > From achilles@delari.net Sun Jun 22 04:05:19 2014 From: achilles@delari.net (Achilles Delari Junior) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 08:05:19 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBvciBz?= =?utf-8?q?omebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: 000c01cf8dd2$3b3b62f0$b1b228d0$@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Message-ID: <53a6b86f61b09_29ff7aca0386562@a4-winter8.mail> Thank you very much Valerie. I clearly remember that Vygotsky spokes about two lines of development in function of changes that play involves: (a) objetc/sense ---> sense/object => development of abstract thinking; (b) action/sense ---> sense/action => development of voluntary atc... There are many crucial things that demand voluntary acts in entire human life in private and public spheres, in the entire personality development, I guess... But I'm making the choice to return to stay quiet, high now. Excuse me once more. I'm really learning something with you and David... Believe me or not, is so frequent learn something, i.e. something really new, nowadays... Thank you. And best wishes. ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? De: "valerie A. Wilkinson" Em: Domingo 22 de Junho de 2014 01:28, Para: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me?"Quite a statement" is quite a compliment, as I see it. And thank you Achilles, for a question rooted in the text. In consideration of capitalism vs ? and Party? vs ? and being in "a patron"'s pocket versus standing for the little ones at all times, and everything we have talked about play and game here in this list, it seems that David's reference to a work that can be called "quite a statement" is worthy of discussion, framing, and debate, if that is called for, or at least response. Especially since we are also talking at the same time about a TED talk about play and the academic problems of framing problems.Vandy (Valerie) -----Original Message-----From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jan AukesSent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 0:28To: eXtended Mind, Culture, ActivitySubject: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me?David,Simon Bar Kochba as the real Christ? That seems to me quite a statement. > Op 21 jun. 2014 om 10:17 heeft David Kellogg het volgende geschreven:> > Achilles:> > Actually, Bar Kochba was the real Jesus Christ. There was a biography > of Christ called "Zealot" written not long ago which raised a big > scandal in the USA because it was written by a Muslim. The really > revolutionary thing about the book, though, was that it tried to > understand what Christ must have meant to the Jews of his time. > Actually, there were hundreds of Christs--political leaders of the > Jews who declared themselves Messiahs and tried to get rid of Roman rule, ending up crucified.> > Bar Kochba was different because he actually succeeded. That is, the > Romans were expelled from Judea, and a real Jewish state was set up > for three years (until 132 AD, if I remember correctly). Then the > Romans took Judea back, and murdered everybody even remotely connected > with the successful rebellion. The Christians, who had never been > sympathetic to the rebellion in the first place (because of course > they had already had their Messiah) at this point became a strongly > pro-Roman religion, and decided to convert non-Jews, eventually winning over the Emperor himself.> > As you probably know, there was a big debate over "Liberation > Theology" in Latin America during the sixties. A lot of this centred > around the discovery by some Latin American priests that prior to the > pro-Roman turn, Christianity had been a strongly revolutionary creed > associated with someone who was, in essence, a somewhat premature Bar Kochba.> > A final note, just because I like to tie threads together and we have > been talking about play. The Forbidden Colors game which Leontiev uses > in his studies of attention and will is related to a traditional > Jewish "Yes/No"game called "Bar Kochba".> > David Kellogg> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies> > > > > >> On 21 June 2014 14:49, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:>> >> Please, dear professors,>> >> >> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in >> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know >> something about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen >> and young thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, >> struggling for freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different >> situations of this kind touched by him in those newspaper >> publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) The Dekabrists; and (3) October >> Revolution. But what more deeply touch me is just the first one, >> because I really do not know nothing about, and seems to be very very >> important in Jewish long history for Land and Freedom. And, believe >> me or not, this is important for many people here in my country, not >> necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find more >> reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved >> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot.>> >> >> Achilles, from Brazil.>> >> From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Jun 23 08:01:51 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 11:01:51 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> Thanks to all who've watched the video and commented. Over the weekend I completed two weeks of PLAYING WITH a "small group" of psychologists/youth workers/educators from 5 countries who were in NYC for their final residency period with me and the Institute. I kept up with your posts but wasn't able to respond until now. I find the discussion fascinating in a few ways, which I will try to describe through commenting on what's been said/written. I greatly appreciated Tom's concern ("We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism") and further comment and subsequent expansion on this ("While I did not wish to attack or offend deliberately, I feel that the limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no matter how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same effect upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern bourgeois society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, > straightforwardly to convey"). > Tom, I in no way felt attacked or offended. > I found Shirley and Helen's and Carol's versions of what I was doing in the talk and what the activities I presented might be "about" very helpful and appreciated learning what they saw. I was indeed trying to present something new to the audience, something that gave them the feeling that there was more "behind it" and that something was pretty unorthodox. > I suppose the key thing I can say in response is that I was speaking about play in a very particular way, as revolutionary. I was really pleased that the audience for the live presentation picked up on that and was excited by this new way of seeing. What I think revolutionary play is (in my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there is and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, relating as who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a cultural-historical activity that creates development, and that all of us human beings need to develop if we are to have a shot at overthrowing capitalism. (For "theory" the most concise expansion of this might be All Power to the Developing.The position put forth in that article has generated lively dialogue, as it is not the most popular among Marxists.) > As I read some of the comments on my talk, it seems to me that how I understand play as revolutionary was not taken into account fully. By that I mean it seems like one's own understanding of play was substituted unaware. Perhaps this has something to do with Hue seeing play as "overdone" as well as David's commenting: > "One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very clear view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not part of the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its content." Sorry, David, if I was less than clear here. For me, the conversation was part of the play. The activity never stopped being play, as I understand it. The cops and kids were playing, in my sense of revolutionary play, as they were creating a conversation they had never had and perhaps could not were they not playing/performing...they were doing what was beyond them and creating something new together. I imagine you and others may not see it that way, but that's what I see. David's comments also highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different ways of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of understanding. As I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. It's that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as pictorial and essentializing in reference to meaning. Apologies if I have misunderstood you. And while I don't mind playing being simultaneously the "leading activity" and the constant activity, I'm inspired by Vygotsky, not overdetermined by him. I'm very sensitive to how we speak/write to each other, however, especially when difference of opinion gets in the way or replaces curiosity to learn more about how come someone thinks/believes what they apparently do. And so I wish that we would be asking more questions of each other... and perhaps saying things in less absolutist and knowing terms. David (again) wrote: PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... I "obviously" (and here it makes sense to use that word) cannot know your intention in writing what and how you wrote the above, as we cannot know each other's intentions. So I'll jump off from what you say and maybe help you see what I was trying to convey?75 teachers (not 1) told us in different ways/phrases that they hadn't played since they were very little children. They weren't making any claims, neither for themselves as individuals and certainly not for their generation. They were talking with us and sharing their experiences. I assume your wife has done the same with you, and that would be interesting to learn about. I'm off tonight to work in Frankfurt for the week, but if there is further conversation I will respond quickly. If any of you are interested in pursuing the topic of play and performance in our current context of capitalism's crisis, from my community's perspective, you can view an event, What Developing in a World in Crisis which begins with 9 people from 8 countries speaking to how they see the development challenges in their countries, followed by a conversation between me and a colleague, and then the audience. Again, thanks for including me, TED, play in your discussions, Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, mike cole wrote: > I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter started? > Mike > > On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg wrote: > I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every summer > in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be > murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: > > http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ > > To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article "What > Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that reason I > found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the dialectical > method is defining what things are by looking at what things are > not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say that > something is in the process of becoming what it is not. > > One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very clear > view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to > policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty > good place to start. > > Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not part of > the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped > being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its > content. > > I think the same thing is true when we say that children play constantly, > from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and Vygotsky, of > course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that very > reason we cannot say it is the main activity). > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my > wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing > around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... > > dk > > > On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson > wrote: > > > A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I did > > not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of the > > 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the > > lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > > working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > > destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' commitment > > and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know > > that I'm fooling myself. > > We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > > ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > > > > Tom Richardson > > Middlesbrough > > UK > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > > > Well Lois > > > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > Social Media > > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > Blogs > > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > Websites > > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > > > > (staying > > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > > something > > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > > with > > > > folks > > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording people in > > > > their > > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It > > was > > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > > reconnect > > > > with > > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > > one-day > > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress and > > > > paradox. > > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > > here--even > > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for > > > many. > > > > >> Lois > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > >> Social Media > > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > >> Blogs > > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > >> Websites > > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > >> All Stars Project > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Mon Jun 23 08:19:25 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 16:19:25 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Thank you, Lois, for finding time for this thoughtful reply to the threads around your TED piece -a link to your 'What's developing is below: http://vimeo.com/98797556 Tom On 23 June 2014 16:01, Lois Holzman wrote: > Thanks to all who've watched the video and commented. > Over the weekend I completed two weeks of PLAYING WITH a "small group" of > psychologists/youth workers/educators from 5 countries who were in NYC for > their final residency period with me and the Institute. I kept up with your > posts but wasn't able to respond until now. > I find the discussion fascinating in a few ways, which I will try to > describe through commenting on what's been said/written. > > I greatly appreciated Tom's concern ("We need Play to evolve the next > tranche of revolutionary strategy and > > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism") and further comment and > subsequent expansion on this ("While I did not wish to attack or offend > deliberately, I feel that the > limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no matter > how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same effect > upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern bourgeois > society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, > > straightforwardly to convey"). > > > Tom, I in no way felt attacked or offended. > > > I found Shirley and Helen's and Carol's versions of what I was doing in > the talk and what the activities I presented might be "about" very helpful > and appreciated learning what they saw. I was indeed trying to present > something new to the audience, something that gave them the feeling that > there was more "behind it" and that something was pretty unorthodox. > > > I suppose the key thing I can say in response is that I was speaking > about play in a very particular way, as revolutionary. I was really pleased > that the audience for the live presentation picked up on that and was > excited by this new way of seeing. What I think revolutionary play is (in > my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there is > and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, relating as > who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a cultural-historical > activity that creates development, and that all of us human beings need to > develop if we are to have a shot at overthrowing capitalism. (For "theory" > the most concise expansion of this might be All Power to the Developing.The > position put forth in that article has generated lively dialogue, as it is > not the most popular among Marxists.) > > > As I read some of the comments on my talk, it seems to me that how I > understand play as revolutionary was not taken into account fully. By that > I mean it seems like one's own understanding of play was substituted > unaware. Perhaps this has something to do with Hue seeing play as > "overdone" as well as David's commenting: > > "One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very > clear > view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to > policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty > good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the > conversations are not part of > the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped > being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its > content." > > Sorry, David, if I was less than clear here. For me, the conversation was > part of the play. The activity never stopped being play, as I understand > it. The cops and kids were playing, in my sense of revolutionary play, as > they were creating a conversation they had never had and perhaps could not > were they not playing/performing...they were doing what was beyond them and > creating something new together. I imagine you and others may not see it > that way, but that's what I see. > > David's comments also highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different ways > of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of understanding. As > I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to > pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. It's > that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as pictorial > and essentializing in reference to meaning. Apologies if I have > misunderstood you. And while I don't mind playing being simultaneously the > "leading activity" and the constant activity, I'm inspired by Vygotsky, not > overdetermined by him. > > I'm very sensitive to how we speak/write to each other, however, > especially when difference of opinion gets in the way or replaces curiosity > to learn more about how come someone thinks/believes what they apparently > do. And so I wish that we would be asking more questions of each other... > and perhaps saying things in less absolutist and knowing terms. > > David (again) wrote: > PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my > wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing > around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... > > I "obviously" (and here it makes sense to use that word) cannot know your > intention in writing what and how you wrote the above, as we cannot know > each other's intentions. So I'll jump off from what you say and maybe help > you see what I was trying to convey?75 teachers (not 1) told us in > different ways/phrases that they hadn't played since they were very little > children. They weren't making any claims, neither for themselves as > individuals and certainly not for their generation. They were talking with > us and sharing their experiences. I assume your wife has done the same with > you, and that would be interesting to learn about. > > I'm off tonight to work in Frankfurt for the week, but if there is further > conversation I will respond quickly. > > If any of you are interested in pursuing the topic of play and performance > in our current context of capitalism's crisis, from my community's > perspective, you can view an event, What Developing in a World in Crisis > which begins with 9 people from 8 countries speaking to how they see the > development challenges in their countries, followed by a conversation > between me and a colleague, and then the audience. > > Again, thanks for including me, TED, play in your discussions, > Lois > > > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter > started? > > Mike > > > > On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg wrote: > > I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every > summer > > in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be > > murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: > > > > > http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ > > > > To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article "What > > Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that reason I > > found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the > dialectical > > method is defining what things are by looking at what things are > > not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say > that > > something is in the process of becoming what it is not. > > > > One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very > clear > > view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to > > policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty > > good place to start. > > > > Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not part > of > > the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped > > being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its > > content. > > > > I think the same thing is true when we say that children play constantly, > > from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and Vygotsky, > of > > course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that very > > reason we cannot say it is the main activity). > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my > > wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing > > around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... > > > > dk > > > > > > On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson > > wrote: > > > > > A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I > did > > > not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of > the > > > 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the > > > lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > > > working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > > > destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' > commitment > > > and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know > > > that I'm fooling myself. > > > We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and > > > tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > > > revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > > > ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > > > > > > Tom Richardson > > > Middlesbrough > > > UK > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: > > > > > > > Well Lois > > > > > > > > That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > > > > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Here's the link, Carol. > > > > > http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > > > > > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > > Social Media > > > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > > Blogs > > > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > > Websites > > > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald < > carolmacdon@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Louis > > > > > > > > > > > > Please could you send the link again? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Carol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > > > > >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > > > > >> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > > > > > >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever > done > > > > > (staying > > > > > >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > > > > > something > > > > > >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > > > with > > > > > folks > > > > > >> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording > people in > > > > > their > > > > > >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. > It > > > was > > > > > >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > > > reconnect > > > > > with > > > > > >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > > > one-day > > > > > >> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress > and > > > > > paradox. > > > > > >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > > > > > here--even > > > > > >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play > for > > > > many. > > > > > >> Lois > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Lois Holzman > > > > > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term > Psychotherapy > > > > > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > > > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > > > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > > > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > > > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > > > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > > > >> Social Media > > > > > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > > > >> Blogs > > > > > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > > > >> Websites > > > > > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > > > >> All Stars Project > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > > > Developmental psycholinguist > > > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Jun 23 09:58:33 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:58:33 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <83E9B13C-1108-4E6E-938A-2F75BBA6F4FA@eastsideinstitute.org> Thanks, Tom. (I tried.) And I didn't realize I forgot the link. All best, Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Jun 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Tom Richardson wrote: > Thank you, Lois, for finding time for this thoughtful reply to the threads > around your TED piece -a link to your 'What's developing is below: > http://vimeo.com/98797556 > Tom > > > On 23 June 2014 16:01, Lois Holzman wrote: > >> Thanks to all who've watched the video and commented. >> Over the weekend I completed two weeks of PLAYING WITH a "small group" of >> psychologists/youth workers/educators from 5 countries who were in NYC for >> their final residency period with me and the Institute. I kept up with your >> posts but wasn't able to respond until now. >> I find the discussion fascinating in a few ways, which I will try to >> describe through commenting on what's been said/written. >> >> I greatly appreciated Tom's concern ("We need Play to evolve the next >> tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism") and further comment and >> subsequent expansion on this ("While I did not wish to attack or offend >> deliberately, I feel that the >> limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no matter >> how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same effect >> upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern bourgeois >> society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, >>> straightforwardly to convey"). >> >>> Tom, I in no way felt attacked or offended. >> >>> I found Shirley and Helen's and Carol's versions of what I was doing in >> the talk and what the activities I presented might be "about" very helpful >> and appreciated learning what they saw. I was indeed trying to present >> something new to the audience, something that gave them the feeling that >> there was more "behind it" and that something was pretty unorthodox. >> >>> I suppose the key thing I can say in response is that I was speaking >> about play in a very particular way, as revolutionary. I was really pleased >> that the audience for the live presentation picked up on that and was >> excited by this new way of seeing. What I think revolutionary play is (in >> my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there is >> and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, relating as >> who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a cultural-historical >> activity that creates development, and that all of us human beings need to >> develop if we are to have a shot at overthrowing capitalism. (For "theory" >> the most concise expansion of this might be All Power to the Developing.The >> position put forth in that article has generated lively dialogue, as it is >> not the most popular among Marxists.) >> >>> As I read some of the comments on my talk, it seems to me that how I >> understand play as revolutionary was not taken into account fully. By that >> I mean it seems like one's own understanding of play was substituted >> unaware. Perhaps this has something to do with Hue seeing play as >> "overdone" as well as David's commenting: >>> "One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very >> clear >> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to >> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty >> good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the >> conversations are not part of >> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped >> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its >> content." >> >> Sorry, David, if I was less than clear here. For me, the conversation was >> part of the play. The activity never stopped being play, as I understand >> it. The cops and kids were playing, in my sense of revolutionary play, as >> they were creating a conversation they had never had and perhaps could not >> were they not playing/performing...they were doing what was beyond them and >> creating something new together. I imagine you and others may not see it >> that way, but that's what I see. >> >> David's comments also highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different ways >> of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of understanding. As >> I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to >> pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. It's >> that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as pictorial >> and essentializing in reference to meaning. Apologies if I have >> misunderstood you. And while I don't mind playing being simultaneously the >> "leading activity" and the constant activity, I'm inspired by Vygotsky, not >> overdetermined by him. >> >> I'm very sensitive to how we speak/write to each other, however, >> especially when difference of opinion gets in the way or replaces curiosity >> to learn more about how come someone thinks/believes what they apparently >> do. And so I wish that we would be asking more questions of each other... >> and perhaps saying things in less absolutist and knowing terms. >> >> David (again) wrote: >> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my >> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing >> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... >> >> I "obviously" (and here it makes sense to use that word) cannot know your >> intention in writing what and how you wrote the above, as we cannot know >> each other's intentions. So I'll jump off from what you say and maybe help >> you see what I was trying to convey?75 teachers (not 1) told us in >> different ways/phrases that they hadn't played since they were very little >> children. They weren't making any claims, neither for themselves as >> individuals and certainly not for their generation. They were talking with >> us and sharing their experiences. I assume your wife has done the same with >> you, and that would be interesting to learn about. >> >> I'm off tonight to work in Frankfurt for the week, but if there is further >> conversation I will respond quickly. >> >> If any of you are interested in pursuing the topic of play and performance >> in our current context of capitalism's crisis, from my community's >> perspective, you can view an event, What Developing in a World in Crisis >> which begins with 9 people from 8 countries speaking to how they see the >> development challenges in their countries, followed by a conversation >> between me and a colleague, and then the audience. >> >> Again, thanks for including me, TED, play in your discussions, >> Lois >> >> >> >> >> Lois Holzman >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> 104-106 South Oxford Street >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> Social Media >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >> Blogs >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >> Websites >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >> All Stars Project >> >> >> >> On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter >> started? >>> Mike >>> >>> On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg wrote: >>> I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every >> summer >>> in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be >>> murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: >>> >>> >> http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ >>> >>> To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article "What >>> Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that reason I >>> found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the >> dialectical >>> method is defining what things are by looking at what things are >>> not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say >> that >>> something is in the process of becoming what it is not. >>> >>> One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very >> clear >>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to >>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a pretty >>> good place to start. >>> >>> Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not part >> of >>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity stopped >>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its >>> content. >>> >>> I think the same thing is true when we say that children play constantly, >>> from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and Vygotsky, >> of >>> course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that very >>> reason we cannot say it is the main activity). >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China (my >>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing >>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... >>> >>> dk >>> >>> >>> On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that I >> did >>>> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example of >> the >>>> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the >>>> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from >>>> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's >>>> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' >> commitment >>>> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I know >>>> that I'm fooling myself. >>>> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, >>>> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, >>>> >>>> Tom Richardson >>>> Middlesbrough >>>> UK >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well Lois >>>>> >>>>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >>>>> >>>>> Carol >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Here's the link, Carol. >>>>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>> Social Media >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>> Blogs >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>> Websites >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald < >> carolmacdon@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Louis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Carol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever >> done >>>>>> (staying >>>>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>>>>> something >>>>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be >>>> with >>>>>> folks >>>>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording >> people in >>>>>> their >>>>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. >> It >>>> was >>>>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to >>>> reconnect >>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The >>>> one-day >>>>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress >> and >>>>>> paradox. >>>>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>>>>> here--even >>>>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play >> for >>>>> many. >>>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term >> Psychotherapy >>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>> >>>> >> >> From goncu@uic.edu Mon Jun 23 10:09:25 2014 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:09:25 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <83E9B13C-1108-4E6E-938A-2F75BBA6F4FA@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> <83E9B13C-1108-4E6E-938A-2F75BBA6F4FA@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <0a7b1594f5d37f248a535fe8ed6cba3d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> First, this is a quick note to say that I enjoyed Lois' talk, and second, I enjoyed reading the responses to Lois' talk very much. I also wanted to add that there are others on this list who have been addressing some of the important issues raised both in Lois' talk and in the responses to it. For example, issues about play being a collective, dialectical, and dialogic activity improvised in human interaction are examined by Tony Perone, Carrie Lobman, Keith Sawyer, and others.. All the best, ag On Mon, June 23, 2014 11:58 am, Lois Holzman wrote: > Thanks, Tom. (I tried.) > And I didn't realize I forgot the link. > All best, > Lois > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Jun 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Tom Richardson > wrote: > >> Thank you, Lois, for finding time for this thoughtful reply to the >> threads >> around your TED piece -a link to your 'What's developing is below: >> http://vimeo.com/98797556 >> Tom >> >> >> On 23 June 2014 16:01, Lois Holzman >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks to all who've watched the video and commented. >>> Over the weekend I completed two weeks of PLAYING WITH a "small group" >>> of >>> psychologists/youth workers/educators from 5 countries who were in NYC >>> for >>> their final residency period with me and the Institute. I kept up with >>> your >>> posts but wasn't able to respond until now. >>> I find the discussion fascinating in a few ways, which I will try to >>> describe through commenting on what's been said/written. >>> >>> I greatly appreciated Tom's concern ("We need Play to evolve the next >>> tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism") and further comment and >>> subsequent expansion on this ("While I did not wish to attack or offend >>> deliberately, I feel that the >>> limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no >>> matter >>> how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same >>> effect >>> upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern >>> bourgeois >>> society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, >>>> straightforwardly to convey"). >>> >>>> Tom, I in no way felt attacked or offended. >>> >>>> I found Shirley and Helen's and Carol's versions of what I was doing >>>> in >>> the talk and what the activities I presented might be "about" very >>> helpful >>> and appreciated learning what they saw. I was indeed trying to present >>> something new to the audience, something that gave them the feeling >>> that >>> there was more "behind it" and that something was pretty unorthodox. >>> >>>> I suppose the key thing I can say in response is that I was speaking >>> about play in a very particular way, as revolutionary. I was really >>> pleased >>> that the audience for the live presentation picked up on that and was >>> excited by this new way of seeing. What I think revolutionary play is >>> (in >>> my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there >>> is >>> and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, relating >>> as >>> who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a >>> cultural-historical >>> activity that creates development, and that all of us human beings need >>> to >>> develop if we are to have a shot at overthrowing capitalism. (For >>> "theory" >>> the most concise expansion of this might be All Power to the >>> Developing.The >>> position put forth in that article has generated lively dialogue, as it >>> is >>> not the most popular among Marxists.) >>> >>>> As I read some of the comments on my talk, it seems to me that how I >>> understand play as revolutionary was not taken into account fully. By >>> that >>> I mean it seems like one's own understanding of play was substituted >>> unaware. Perhaps this has something to do with Hue seeing play as >>> "overdone" as well as David's commenting: >>>> "One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very >>> clear >>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to >>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a >>> pretty >>> good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the >>> conversations are not part of >>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity >>> stopped >>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its >>> content." >>> >>> Sorry, David, if I was less than clear here. For me, the conversation >>> was >>> part of the play. The activity never stopped being play, as I >>> understand >>> it. The cops and kids were playing, in my sense of revolutionary play, >>> as >>> they were creating a conversation they had never had and perhaps could >>> not >>> were they not playing/performing...they were doing what was beyond them >>> and >>> creating something new together. I imagine you and others may not see >>> it >>> that way, but that's what I see. >>> >>> David's comments also highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different >>> ways >>> of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of >>> understanding. As >>> I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to >>> pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. >>> It's >>> that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as >>> pictorial >>> and essentializing in reference to meaning. Apologies if I have >>> misunderstood you. And while I don't mind playing being simultaneously >>> the >>> "leading activity" and the constant activity, I'm inspired by Vygotsky, >>> not >>> overdetermined by him. >>> >>> I'm very sensitive to how we speak/write to each other, however, >>> especially when difference of opinion gets in the way or replaces >>> curiosity >>> to learn more about how come someone thinks/believes what they >>> apparently >>> do. And so I wish that we would be asking more questions of each >>> other... >>> and perhaps saying things in less absolutist and knowing terms. >>> >>> David (again) wrote: >>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China >>> (my >>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing >>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... >>> >>> I "obviously" (and here it makes sense to use that word) cannot know >>> your >>> intention in writing what and how you wrote the above, as we cannot >>> know >>> each other's intentions. So I'll jump off from what you say and maybe >>> help >>> you see what I was trying to convey?75 teachers (not 1) told us in >>> different ways/phrases that they hadn't played since they were very >>> little >>> children. They weren't making any claims, neither for themselves as >>> individuals and certainly not for their generation. They were talking >>> with >>> us and sharing their experiences. I assume your wife has done the same >>> with >>> you, and that would be interesting to learn about. >>> >>> I'm off tonight to work in Frankfurt for the week, but if there is >>> further >>> conversation I will respond quickly. >>> >>> If any of you are interested in pursuing the topic of play and >>> performance >>> in our current context of capitalism's crisis, from my community's >>> perspective, you can view an event, What Developing in a World in >>> Crisis >>> which begins with 9 people from 8 countries speaking to how they see >>> the >>> development challenges in their countries, followed by a conversation >>> between me and a colleague, and then the audience. >>> >>> Again, thanks for including me, TED, play in your discussions, >>> Lois >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Lois Holzman >>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>> Social Media >>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>> Blogs >>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>> Websites >>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>> All Stars Project >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter >>> started? >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every >>> summer >>>> in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be >>>> murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ >>>> >>>> To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article >>>> "What >>>> Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that >>>> reason I >>>> found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the >>> dialectical >>>> method is defining what things are by looking at what things are >>>> not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say >>> that >>>> something is in the process of becoming what it is not. >>>> >>>> One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very >>> clear >>>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to >>>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a >>>> pretty >>>> good place to start. >>>> >>>> Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not >>>> part >>> of >>>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity >>>> stopped >>>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its >>>> content. >>>> >>>> I think the same thing is true when we say that children play >>>> constantly, >>>> from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and >>>> Vygotsky, >>> of >>>> course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that >>>> very >>>> reason we cannot say it is the main activity). >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China >>>> (my >>>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing >>>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... >>>> >>>> dk >>>> >>>> >>>> On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that >>>>> I >>> did >>>>> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example >>>>> of >>> the >>>>> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the >>>>> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from >>>>> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's >>>>> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' >>> commitment >>>>> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I >>>>> know >>>>> that I'm fooling myself. >>>>> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, >>>>> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, >>>>> >>>>> Tom Richardson >>>>> Middlesbrough >>>>> UK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Well Lois >>>>>> >>>>>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >>>>>> >>>>>> Carol >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's the link, Carol. >>>>>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald < >>> carolmacdon@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Louis >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> Carol >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < >>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever >>> done >>>>>>> (staying >>>>>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be >>>>> with >>>>>>> folks >>>>>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording >>> people in >>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. >>> It >>>>> was >>>>>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to >>>>> reconnect >>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The >>>>> one-day >>>>>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress >>> and >>>>>>> paradox. >>>>>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>>>>>> here--even >>>>>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play >>> for >>>>>> many. >>>>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term >>> Psychotherapy >>>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Jun 23 12:42:01 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:42:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Lois, I wanted to underline two comments you highlighted in your reply to David's response: [first] "highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different ways of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of understanding. As I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. It's that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as pictorial and essentializing in reference to meaning." I appreciated this summation inviting us to to be *careful* HOW we reference *meaning*. Meaning as *forming* [not formed] in our playful participation. [second] What I think revolutionary play is (in my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there is and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, relating as who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a cultural-historical activity that creates development. In this fragment I appreciated: relating *what there IS* AND *making something new* as emerging *at the same time* relating *who we ARE* AND *other than we are* at the SAME time* this simultaneous *play* AS *revolutionary* Not first *this* AND THEN *that* as *inter* as if between two unique essences but rather *this* THROUGH *that* EMERGING SIMULTANEOUSLY within playful activity. The notion of *residing* WITHIN HORIZONS where *subject* AND *object* emerge together each THROUGH the other simultaneously In other words a *horizonal view*. Merleau Ponty suggests the metaphor of *light* as a horizonal metaphor Subjects and objects emerging simultaneously within *light* which is everywhere and nowhere. Meaning emerging within playful activity, forming AND formed [each in the other] . Lois, as I *read* your comments *playing* with these notions I *found myself* stimulated by your commentary and decided to reflect out loud [not interior views]. Thanks for a fascinating revolutionary playful formation. Larry On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > Hi All, > Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > event?TEDxNavesink Play. > Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done (staying > within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying something > new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with folks > who appreciate and value play?many of whom are affording people in their > communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect with > Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day > event was organized are 4 P's?possibility, pleasure, progress and paradox. > I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation here?even > though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. > Lois > > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Jun 23 14:36:45 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 06:36:45 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Well, of course, Chinese children play. They have played for thousands of years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_Song_dynasty#mediaviewer/File:A_Children%27s_Puppet_Show.jpg You can see them playing almost everywhere in China today. http://blogs.sacbee.com/photos/2010/06/international-childrens-day.html My wife and her playmates used to re-enact revolutionary operas during the Cultural Revolution in ways that would have gotten them in big trouble if they had been older (my wife still does a parody of the revolutionary opera "Chao Yang Gou" that makes people fall out of their chairs laughing when we go back to China). At the same time, Chinese children grow up to be adults who claim, as the Sichuanese teacher did, that Chinese children never play, or that they won't play, or that they somehow play less than other children. Consider, for example, this: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-05/13/content_871182.htm So we need to ask what these claims really mean and why they are so common. In the case of this "China Daily" article, I think the answer is pretty clear--at least to me. This article is part of a very widespread genre--a kind of humblebrag that we also see among young professionals, according to which the person in question is so busy that he or she has scarcely any time to do anything except tell us all how busy they are. So for example this article stresses from the very first sentence that little Zhuzhu is of an affluent family and strongly implies that within a few years, thanks to her lack of play opportunities, Zhuzhu and her affluent family will be even wealthier. Children who play, on the other hand, are children whose parents are too poor to afford cram schools and so their kids run wild in the streets (as my mother in law says, parents who hang their children from a tree branch and let the wind blow them up, or rather, down). For obvious reasons, this kind of (mostly false) propaganda is not going to improve the play lives of children, no matter what class. Lois's talk makes it clear that the activity "Cops and Kids" takes place in distinct stages: there is a set of warm up exercises (walking around and making faces, doing "gibberish" and talking in tongues) and then there is an Impro (presumably along the lines of Keith Johnstone's book, "Impro", or Augusto Boal's "Image Theatre") and then there is a conversation (see around point 12.48 in Lois's talk). The conversation, which is the cathartic moment, seems the least play-like to me--it is concerned with the fear of being gunned down in the street. This fear is not play. For one thing, it's not imaginary. For another, it's not mutual, reciprocal, shared or symmetrical. Police in America are well equipped to ensure that they will be able to gun down people without the fear of being reciprocally gunned down. For example, many of the "inadvertant" murders carried out by the NYPD are attributable to the fact that they were given repeat-shooting weapons with hair triggers under Rudy Giuliani, weapons that they still carry. The last time I was in New York City, about ten years ago, my wife and I participated in a street funeral for a Chinese child who had been murdered by the NYPD. He was shot for carrying a brightly colored plastic gun. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 24 June 2014 04:42, Larry Purss wrote: > Lois, > I wanted to underline two comments you highlighted in your reply to > David's response: > > [first] "highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different ways of > approaching what it means to engage in the activity of understanding. As I > read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to > pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. It's > that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as pictorial > and essentializing in reference to meaning." > > I appreciated this summation inviting us to to be *careful* HOW we > reference *meaning*. Meaning as *forming* [not formed] in our playful > participation. > > [second] What I think revolutionary play is (in my talk I repeated what I > mean by that several times?taking what there is and making something new, > doing what we do not know how to do, relating as who we are/other than who > we are at the same time) is a cultural-historical activity that creates > development. > > In this fragment I appreciated: > > relating *what there IS* AND *making something new* as emerging *at the > same time* > > relating *who we ARE* AND *other than we are* at the SAME time* > > this simultaneous *play* AS *revolutionary* Not first *this* AND THEN > *that* as *inter* as if between two unique essences but rather *this* > THROUGH *that* EMERGING SIMULTANEOUSLY within playful activity. > > The notion of *residing* WITHIN HORIZONS where *subject* AND *object* > emerge together each THROUGH the other simultaneously > > In other words a *horizonal view*. Merleau Ponty suggests the metaphor of > *light* as a horizonal metaphor Subjects and objects emerging > simultaneously within *light* which is everywhere and nowhere. Meaning > emerging within playful activity, forming AND formed [each in the other] . > > Lois, as I *read* your comments *playing* with these notions I *found > myself* stimulated by your commentary and decided to reflect out loud [not > interior views]. > > Thanks for a fascinating revolutionary playful formation. > > Larry > > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > > event?TEDxNavesink Play. > > Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done > (staying > > within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying something > > new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with > folks > > who appreciate and value play?many of whom are affording people in their > > communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was > > really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect > with > > Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day > > event was organized are 4 P's?possibility, pleasure, progress and > paradox. > > I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > here?even > > though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. > > Lois > > > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > Social Media > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > Blogs > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > Websites > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Tue Jun 24 06:49:43 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:49:43 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <759C915F-89C1-44E9-820E-7978B8432745@eastsideinstitute.org> Larry, Thanks for "completing" me (in a taking liberty with Vygotsky sense). Your comments are much appreciated. Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Jun 23, 2014, at 9:42 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Lois, > I wanted to underline two comments you highlighted in your reply to > David's response: > > [first] "highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different ways of > approaching what it means to engage in the activity of understanding. As I > read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to > pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. It's > that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as pictorial > and essentializing in reference to meaning." > > I appreciated this summation inviting us to to be *careful* HOW we > reference *meaning*. Meaning as *forming* [not formed] in our playful > participation. > > [second] What I think revolutionary play is (in my talk I repeated what I > mean by that several times?taking what there is and making something new, > doing what we do not know how to do, relating as who we are/other than who > we are at the same time) is a cultural-historical activity that creates > development. > > In this fragment I appreciated: > > relating *what there IS* AND *making something new* as emerging *at the > same time* > > relating *who we ARE* AND *other than we are* at the SAME time* > > this simultaneous *play* AS *revolutionary* Not first *this* AND THEN > *that* as *inter* as if between two unique essences but rather *this* > THROUGH *that* EMERGING SIMULTANEOUSLY within playful activity. > > The notion of *residing* WITHIN HORIZONS where *subject* AND *object* > emerge together each THROUGH the other simultaneously > > In other words a *horizonal view*. Merleau Ponty suggests the metaphor of > *light* as a horizonal metaphor Subjects and objects emerging > simultaneously within *light* which is everywhere and nowhere. Meaning > emerging within playful activity, forming AND formed [each in the other] . > > Lois, as I *read* your comments *playing* with these notions I *found > myself* stimulated by your commentary and decided to reflect out loud [not > interior views]. > > Thanks for a fascinating revolutionary playful formation. > > Larry > > > On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >> event?TEDxNavesink Play. >> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever done (staying >> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying something >> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be with folks >> who appreciate and value play?many of whom are affording people in their >> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. It was >> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to reconnect with >> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The one-day >> event was organized are 4 P's?possibility, pleasure, progress and paradox. >> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation here?even >> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play for many. >> Lois >> >> >> >> Lois Holzman >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> 104-106 South Oxford Street >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> Social Media >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >> Blogs >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >> Websites >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >> All Stars Project >> >> >> >> From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Tue Jun 24 06:51:06 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:51:06 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <0a7b1594f5d37f248a535fe8ed6cba3d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> <83E9B13C-1108-4E6E-938A-2F75BBA6F4FA@eastsideinstitute.org> <0a7b1594f5d37f248a535fe8ed6cba3d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: <9E8200C6-075C-4803-800E-0B23BB4B1BD8@eastsideinstitute.org> Don't forget yourself, Artin! Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Jun 23, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > First, this is a quick note to say that I enjoyed Lois' talk, and second, > I enjoyed reading the responses to Lois' talk very much. I also wanted to > add that there are others on this list who have been addressing some of > the important issues raised both in Lois' talk and in the responses to it. > For example, issues about play being a collective, dialectical, and > dialogic activity improvised in human interaction are examined by Tony > Perone, Carrie Lobman, Keith Sawyer, and others.. > > All the best, ag > > > On Mon, June 23, 2014 11:58 am, Lois Holzman wrote: >> Thanks, Tom. (I tried.) >> And I didn't realize I forgot the link. >> All best, >> Lois >> >> Lois Holzman >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> 104-106 South Oxford Street >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> Social Media >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >> Blogs >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >> Websites >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >> All Stars Project >> >> >> >> On Jun 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Tom Richardson >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you, Lois, for finding time for this thoughtful reply to the >>> threads >>> around your TED piece -a link to your 'What's developing is below: >>> http://vimeo.com/98797556 >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On 23 June 2014 16:01, Lois Holzman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks to all who've watched the video and commented. >>>> Over the weekend I completed two weeks of PLAYING WITH a "small group" >>>> of >>>> psychologists/youth workers/educators from 5 countries who were in NYC >>>> for >>>> their final residency period with me and the Institute. I kept up with >>>> your >>>> posts but wasn't able to respond until now. >>>> I find the discussion fascinating in a few ways, which I will try to >>>> describe through commenting on what's been said/written. >>>> >>>> I greatly appreciated Tom's concern ("We need Play to evolve the next >>>> tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism") and further comment and >>>> subsequent expansion on this ("While I did not wish to attack or offend >>>> deliberately, I feel that the >>>> limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no >>>> matter >>>> how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same >>>> effect >>>> upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern >>>> bourgeois >>>> society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, >>>>> straightforwardly to convey"). >>>> >>>>> Tom, I in no way felt attacked or offended. >>>> >>>>> I found Shirley and Helen's and Carol's versions of what I was doing >>>>> in >>>> the talk and what the activities I presented might be "about" very >>>> helpful >>>> and appreciated learning what they saw. I was indeed trying to present >>>> something new to the audience, something that gave them the feeling >>>> that >>>> there was more "behind it" and that something was pretty unorthodox. >>>> >>>>> I suppose the key thing I can say in response is that I was speaking >>>> about play in a very particular way, as revolutionary. I was really >>>> pleased >>>> that the audience for the live presentation picked up on that and was >>>> excited by this new way of seeing. What I think revolutionary play is >>>> (in >>>> my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there >>>> is >>>> and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, relating >>>> as >>>> who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a >>>> cultural-historical >>>> activity that creates development, and that all of us human beings need >>>> to >>>> develop if we are to have a shot at overthrowing capitalism. (For >>>> "theory" >>>> the most concise expansion of this might be All Power to the >>>> Developing.The >>>> position put forth in that article has generated lively dialogue, as it >>>> is >>>> not the most popular among Marxists.) >>>> >>>>> As I read some of the comments on my talk, it seems to me that how I >>>> understand play as revolutionary was not taken into account fully. By >>>> that >>>> I mean it seems like one's own understanding of play was substituted >>>> unaware. Perhaps this has something to do with Hue seeing play as >>>> "overdone" as well as David's commenting: >>>>> "One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very >>>> clear >>>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to >>>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a >>>> pretty >>>> good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the >>>> conversations are not part of >>>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity >>>> stopped >>>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its >>>> content." >>>> >>>> Sorry, David, if I was less than clear here. For me, the conversation >>>> was >>>> part of the play. The activity never stopped being play, as I >>>> understand >>>> it. The cops and kids were playing, in my sense of revolutionary play, >>>> as >>>> they were creating a conversation they had never had and perhaps could >>>> not >>>> were they not playing/performing...they were doing what was beyond them >>>> and >>>> creating something new together. I imagine you and others may not see >>>> it >>>> that way, but that's what I see. >>>> >>>> David's comments also highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different >>>> ways >>>> of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of >>>> understanding. As >>>> I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me to >>>> pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. >>>> It's >>>> that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as >>>> pictorial >>>> and essentializing in reference to meaning. Apologies if I have >>>> misunderstood you. And while I don't mind playing being simultaneously >>>> the >>>> "leading activity" and the constant activity, I'm inspired by Vygotsky, >>>> not >>>> overdetermined by him. >>>> >>>> I'm very sensitive to how we speak/write to each other, however, >>>> especially when difference of opinion gets in the way or replaces >>>> curiosity >>>> to learn more about how come someone thinks/believes what they >>>> apparently >>>> do. And so I wish that we would be asking more questions of each >>>> other... >>>> and perhaps saying things in less absolutist and knowing terms. >>>> >>>> David (again) wrote: >>>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China >>>> (my >>>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing >>>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... >>>> >>>> I "obviously" (and here it makes sense to use that word) cannot know >>>> your >>>> intention in writing what and how you wrote the above, as we cannot >>>> know >>>> each other's intentions. So I'll jump off from what you say and maybe >>>> help >>>> you see what I was trying to convey?75 teachers (not 1) told us in >>>> different ways/phrases that they hadn't played since they were very >>>> little >>>> children. They weren't making any claims, neither for themselves as >>>> individuals and certainly not for their generation. They were talking >>>> with >>>> us and sharing their experiences. I assume your wife has done the same >>>> with >>>> you, and that would be interesting to learn about. >>>> >>>> I'm off tonight to work in Frankfurt for the week, but if there is >>>> further >>>> conversation I will respond quickly. >>>> >>>> If any of you are interested in pursuing the topic of play and >>>> performance >>>> in our current context of capitalism's crisis, from my community's >>>> perspective, you can view an event, What Developing in a World in >>>> Crisis >>>> which begins with 9 people from 8 countries speaking to how they see >>>> the >>>> development challenges in their countries, followed by a conversation >>>> between me and a colleague, and then the audience. >>>> >>>> Again, thanks for including me, TED, play in your discussions, >>>> Lois >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lois Holzman >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>> Social Media >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>> Blogs >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>> Websites >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>> All Stars Project >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter >>>> started? >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg wrote: >>>>> I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every >>>> summer >>>>> in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be >>>>> murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ >>>>> >>>>> To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article >>>>> "What >>>>> Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that >>>>> reason I >>>>> found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the >>>> dialectical >>>>> method is defining what things are by looking at what things are >>>>> not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we say >>>> that >>>>> something is in the process of becoming what it is not. >>>>> >>>>> One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very >>>> clear >>>>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to >>>>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a >>>>> pretty >>>>> good place to start. >>>>> >>>>> Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not >>>>> part >>>> of >>>>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity >>>>> stopped >>>>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its >>>>> content. >>>>> >>>>> I think the same thing is true when we say that children play >>>>> constantly, >>>>> from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and >>>>> Vygotsky, >>>> of >>>>> course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that >>>>> very >>>>> reason we cannot say it is the main activity). >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China >>>>> (my >>>>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing >>>>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... >>>>> >>>>> dk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that >>>>>> I >>>> did >>>>>> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example >>>>>> of >>>> the >>>>>> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will the >>>>>> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from >>>>>> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's >>>>>> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' >>>> commitment >>>>>> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I >>>>>> know >>>>>> that I'm fooling myself. >>>>>> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy and >>>>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for >>>>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, >>>>>> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom Richardson >>>>>> Middlesbrough >>>>>> UK >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well Lois >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carol >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here's the link, Carol. >>>>>>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald < >>>> carolmacdon@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Louis >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please could you send the link again? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>> Carol >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx >>>>>>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. >>>>>>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever >>>> done >>>>>>>> (staying >>>>>>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be >>>>>> with >>>>>>>> folks >>>>>>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording >>>> people in >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. >>>> It >>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to >>>>>> reconnect >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The >>>>>> one-day >>>>>>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress >>>> and >>>>>>>> paradox. >>>>>>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation >>>>>>>> here--even >>>>>>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play >>>> for >>>>>>> many. >>>>>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term >>>> Psychotherapy >>>>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor >>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > From bella.kotik@gmail.com Tue Jun 24 08:42:07 2014 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 18:42:07 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_Vygotsky_and_Bar-Kokhba_=5B=D0=91=D0=B0=D1=80?= =?utf-8?b?LdCa0L7RhdCx0LAgKNeR16gg15vXldeb15HXkOKAjildLiBCZWxsYSBv?= =?utf-8?q?r_somebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> References: <53a51ce398bb0_75c5382983c838dc@a4-winter10.mail> Message-ID: Achiles shalom Sorry for a delay, but we were on the way from 3rd Estoril Vygotsky conference. These conferences (every 2 years) became traditional and the dates of the N4 in June 2016 are already fixed- 12-14/06. I wonder what could be a good reason (motivation, incentive) for xmca members to take part in 4th EVC of the next time? Estoril is a beautiful resort on the Athlantic shore and Quintino Aires the organizer is a very generous host. As about Bar Kochba I asked my husband Ted Friedgut, who knows Jewish history better to answer you and here what he say: Bar Kochba has been a controversial character since the time of his life and remains so to this day. By no means all the Rabbis of his time regarded him as a Messianic figure, but the great authority of Rabbi Akiva who supported Bar Kochba whole heartedly was sufficient to outweigh his detractors. Even as recently as 1982, Yehoshafat Harkabi, a Hebrew University professor of International Relations wrote a book with the title ?The Bar Kochba Syndrome: Fantasy and Realism in International Relations? pointing to the disastrous outcome of the Bar Kochba revolt against Rome?580,000 war dead and uncounted thousands more who perished of disease and famine during the three year war; fifty towns and 597 villages razed to the ground by the vengeful Roman armies, a total destruction of Jewish public and religious life in Palestine. All this is attributed to the unrealistic fanaticism that drove Bar Kochba?s war against the Roman Empire. In 1882, Avraham Goldfaden wrote an operetta on the life and deeds of Bar Kochba, seeking to encourage jewish morale and resistance to the pogrom wave that swept Russia following the assassination of Alexander II. It is most likely this presentation of Bar Kochba that Lev Vygotsky saw and about which he wrote in his role as theater critic for the Gomel? local newspaper in April 1923. His praise of Bar Kochba as a revolutionary representative of the younger generation in defiance of the older, more cautious religious-political establishment can certainly be viewed as autobiographical, for Vygotsky too, was acting against the older Jewish establishment in adopting Marxist socialism as the best way to build a new, universal and just society. Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior wrote: > Please, dear professors, > > > In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in > general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know something > about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen and young > thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, struggling for > freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different situations of this > kind touched by him in those newspaper publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2) > The Dekabrists; and (3) October Revolution. But what more deeply touch me > is just the first one, because I really do not know nothing about, and > seems to be very very important in Jewish long history for Land and > Freedom. And, believe me or not, this is important for many people here in > my country, not necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find > more reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved > Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend > your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot. > > > Achilles, from Brazil. > > From prospero.garcia@rutgers.edu Tue Jun 24 14:06:29 2014 From: prospero.garcia@rutgers.edu (=?UTF-8?B?UHLDs3NwZXJvIE4uIEdhcmPDrWE=?=) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:06:29 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Tenure-track/tenured job at the University of Warwick (UK) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Please forward the following opening at the University of Warwick (UK) to anyone that you think may be interested: We are looking for a psycholinguist in a tenure track/tenured job (Assistant / Associate Professor) in the Language and Learning Group in the Deptartment of Psychology. The deadline is the 21st of July 2014. Please see the following links for more details. http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AJA249/associate-professor-71076-064/ http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AJA204/assistant-professor-71076-064/ Any questions can be addressed to Prof. Sotaro Kita >. ------------------------------ -- Sotaro Kita, Ph.D. University of Warwick Department of Psychology Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel: +44-(0)24 7652 8184 Fax: +44-(0)24 7652 4225 -- Pr?spero N. Garc?a, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, Rutgers University 434 Armitage Hall, 311 N. 5th Street Camden, NJ 08102 http://foreignlanguages.camden.rutgers.edu/spanish/ From prospero.garcia@rutgers.edu Tue Jun 24 15:16:59 2014 From: prospero.garcia@rutgers.edu (=?UTF-8?B?UHLDs3NwZXJvIE4uIEdhcmPDrWE=?=) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 18:16:59 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Call for Papers: XXI Sociocultural Theory & Second Language Learning Research Working Group Meeting Message-ID: XXI Sociocultural Theory & Second Language Learning Research Working Group Meeting www.sctresearch.org We are pleased to announce that the XXI annual SCT & SLL Research Working Group Meeting will be sponsored by the Department of Modern Languages and Literatures of the University of Miami (Florida). Where: University of Miami (Coral Gables, Florida) Meeting Dates: From Thursday, November 6 to Saturday November 8, 2014 Registration & Attendance: Please send an email to enegueruela@miami.edu to register for attendance at the 2014 SCT and Second Language Learning Research Working Group Meeting. Please feel free to forward this call to anyone who may be interested. Call for Papers: XXI Sociocultural Theory & Second Language Learning Research Working Group Meeting www.sctresearch.org We are pleased to announce that the XXI annual SCT & SLL Research Working Group Meeting will be sponsored by the Department of Modern Languages and Literatures of the University of Miami (Florida). Important Dates: Meeting Dates: Thursday, November 6t to Saturday November 8, 2014 Abstracts submission deadline: July 15, 2014 Decisions made: August 1, 2014 Submission: If you wish to present, please send an email with your abstract of no more than 300 words, your contact information and your institutional affiliation to enegueruela@miami.edu -- Pr?spero N. Garc?a, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, Rutgers University 434 Armitage Hall, 311 N. 5th Street Camden, NJ 08102 http://foreignlanguages.camden.rutgers.edu/spanish/ From smago@uga.edu Wed Jun 25 08:35:46 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:35:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Announcing the 2015 JoLLE Conference! Message-ID: <9e69ef5fb0f549a4b385db8257c8bc8d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> [cid:image001.png@01CF9069.98CAB120] -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 107408 bytes Desc: image001.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140625/387c539b/attachment-0001.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CALL FOR PROPOSALS.PDF Type: application/pdf Size: 90950 bytes Desc: CALL FOR PROPOSALS.PDF Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140625/387c539b/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jun 25 11:09:34 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 12:09:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playing with/at TED In-Reply-To: <9E8200C6-075C-4803-800E-0B23BB4B1BD8@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <2C6F613E-DEB0-448E-92DA-6EA0F444F039@eastsideinstitute.org> <090114A9-AC6E-4B26-8D44-DB63B275B3E8@eastsideinstitute.org> <8A4F9BDC-704C-4E9A-A773-56EFD19B9A04@eastsideinstitute.org> <83E9B13C-1108-4E6E-938A-2F75BBA6F4FA@eastsideinstitute.org> <0a7b1594f5d37f248a535fe8ed6cba3d.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <9E8200C6-075C-4803-800E-0B23BB4B1BD8@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Lois, I wonder if the following captures your meaning/sense of the word "play": Play is an engagement with "the otherwise". In a sense, play involves bringing irrealis into reality. I really like this way of thinking about play (and I may be reading too much into your understanding of play so please correct me if I've misunderstood you). For me, this idea of play is much more applicable to the lives of adults and it opens up lots of encounters to a play analysis. I assume that this is what you mean when you say that the kids talking with police are "playing"; they are engaged in a type of relationship and interaction that is "otherwise" - it isn't part of the normal types of conversation that one expects to happen. This points up the fact that there are structured, expected relations that we engage in as we go about our everyday lives. Lois, what you seem to me to be pointing to is that play involves the transformation of these expected relations, i.e. when "the otherwise" is realized in a moment of interaction. It seems that this is a rather unorthodox sense of play. I wonder if it comes out of the fact that you work primarily with adolescents and adults, "grown-ups" as we emically refer to them. It seems likely to me that play is something very fundamentally different for grown-ups than it is for children. Most Vygotsky inspired play researchers are looking at play in toddlers and early childhood. So I am very excited by your work that brings play into adulthood (and as Artin notes, there are others who do this but I don't know how many theorize adult "play" as explicitly or as well as you do). It seems to me that somewhere in here is where David's problem lies (and yours, to the extent that you are willing to share this burden with him). He is pointing to the fact that "play" may be conceived in China as "lack of restraint", and that is why Chinese say that they haven't played since they were 2 year olds - they have primarily experienced restraint ever since then (regardles of how they might be engaging "the otherwise" in their everyday lives - even "teasing" could be a kind of engagement with "the otherwise"). And David interestingly points to the fact that play has a class dimension - it is what the poor kids do in the streets. That seems like a notion of play that needs to be played with. And it seems to me that this is precisely what you are interested in doing even as you accept their definition of play for the sake of making your argument in the first place. I think we could push even further still and point out that life is play in a very real(!) sense. The taken for granted social worlds that we inhabit and that we are trying to play with are, in the first place, play. And yet, we often don't realize that they are play (recall Marx's "men" make history but not of their own choosing). Additionally, once we call it "play" we assume that it is "unreal" (cf. "social constructionism" lit of the mid to late 20th century). Yet this play is a highly consequential form of play because, well, there are "winners" and there are "losers", and the consequence of "winning" or "losing" is dire (perhaps this is why the movie Hunger Games strikes a chord with people today? b.c. they see the world today, mid-recession, as akin to a fight to the death). Anyway, hopefully there is a grain of sense in all of this play with play (in play). and please, let me know if I'm terribly off-base here... Playfully, greg On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > Don't forget yourself, Artin! > Lois > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Jun 23, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > > > > > First, this is a quick note to say that I enjoyed Lois' talk, and second, > > I enjoyed reading the responses to Lois' talk very much. I also wanted > to > > add that there are others on this list who have been addressing some of > > the important issues raised both in Lois' talk and in the responses to > it. > > For example, issues about play being a collective, dialectical, and > > dialogic activity improvised in human interaction are examined by Tony > > Perone, Carrie Lobman, Keith Sawyer, and others.. > > > > All the best, ag > > > > > > On Mon, June 23, 2014 11:58 am, Lois Holzman wrote: > >> Thanks, Tom. (I tried.) > >> And I didn't realize I forgot the link. > >> All best, > >> Lois > >> > >> Lois Holzman > >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >> Social Media > >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >> Blogs > >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >> Websites > >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >> All Stars Project > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jun 23, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Tom Richardson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Thank you, Lois, for finding time for this thoughtful reply to the > >>> threads > >>> around your TED piece -a link to your 'What's developing is below: > >>> http://vimeo.com/98797556 > >>> Tom > >>> > >>> > >>> On 23 June 2014 16:01, Lois Holzman > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Thanks to all who've watched the video and commented. > >>>> Over the weekend I completed two weeks of PLAYING WITH a "small group" > >>>> of > >>>> psychologists/youth workers/educators from 5 countries who were in NYC > >>>> for > >>>> their final residency period with me and the Institute. I kept up with > >>>> your > >>>> posts but wasn't able to respond until now. > >>>> I find the discussion fascinating in a few ways, which I will try to > >>>> describe through commenting on what's been said/written. > >>>> > >>>> I greatly appreciated Tom's concern ("We need Play to evolve the next > >>>> tranche of revolutionary strategy and > >>>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > >>>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism") and further comment and > >>>> subsequent expansion on this ("While I did not wish to attack or > offend > >>>> deliberately, I feel that the > >>>> limitations of work within individual/small group relationships, no > >>>> matter > >>>> how creative, redemptive and transformative, cannot have that same > >>>> effect > >>>> upon the 500year-developed /developing reality which is modern > >>>> bourgeois > >>>> society. It is that sense of limitation which I attempted, > >>>>> straightforwardly to convey"). > >>>> > >>>>> Tom, I in no way felt attacked or offended. > >>>> > >>>>> I found Shirley and Helen's and Carol's versions of what I was doing > >>>>> in > >>>> the talk and what the activities I presented might be "about" very > >>>> helpful > >>>> and appreciated learning what they saw. I was indeed trying to > present > >>>> something new to the audience, something that gave them the feeling > >>>> that > >>>> there was more "behind it" and that something was pretty unorthodox. > >>>> > >>>>> I suppose the key thing I can say in response is that I was speaking > >>>> about play in a very particular way, as revolutionary. I was really > >>>> pleased > >>>> that the audience for the live presentation picked up on that and was > >>>> excited by this new way of seeing. What I think revolutionary play is > >>>> (in > >>>> my talk I repeated what I mean by that several times?taking what there > >>>> is > >>>> and making something new, doing what we do not know how to do, > relating > >>>> as > >>>> who we are/other than who we are at the same time) is a > >>>> cultural-historical > >>>> activity that creates development, and that all of us human beings > need > >>>> to > >>>> develop if we are to have a shot at overthrowing capitalism. (For > >>>> "theory" > >>>> the most concise expansion of this might be All Power to the > >>>> Developing.The > >>>> position put forth in that article has generated lively dialogue, as > it > >>>> is > >>>> not the most popular among Marxists.) > >>>> > >>>>> As I read some of the comments on my talk, it seems to me that how I > >>>> understand play as revolutionary was not taken into account fully. By > >>>> that > >>>> I mean it seems like one's own understanding of play was substituted > >>>> unaware. Perhaps this has something to do with Hue seeing play as > >>>> "overdone" as well as David's commenting: > >>>>> "One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very > >>>> clear > >>>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to > >>>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a > >>>> pretty > >>>> good place to start. Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the > >>>> conversations are not part of > >>>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity > >>>> stopped > >>>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its > >>>> content." > >>>> > >>>> Sorry, David, if I was less than clear here. For me, the conversation > >>>> was > >>>> part of the play. The activity never stopped being play, as I > >>>> understand > >>>> it. The cops and kids were playing, in my sense of revolutionary play, > >>>> as > >>>> they were creating a conversation they had never had and perhaps could > >>>> not > >>>> were they not playing/performing...they were doing what was beyond > them > >>>> and > >>>> creating something new together. I imagine you and others may not see > >>>> it > >>>> that way, but that's what I see. > >>>> > >>>> David's comments also highlight for me an aspect of perhaps different > >>>> ways > >>>> of approaching what it means to engage in the activity of > >>>> understanding. As > >>>> I read you, you need me to say what play is not and you also need me > to > >>>> pinpoint the beginnings and endings of something identified as play. > >>>> It's > >>>> that "is" that for me is the problematic term?it reads to me as > >>>> pictorial > >>>> and essentializing in reference to meaning. Apologies if I have > >>>> misunderstood you. And while I don't mind playing being simultaneously > >>>> the > >>>> "leading activity" and the constant activity, I'm inspired by > Vygotsky, > >>>> not > >>>> overdetermined by him. > >>>> > >>>> I'm very sensitive to how we speak/write to each other, however, > >>>> especially when difference of opinion gets in the way or replaces > >>>> curiosity > >>>> to learn more about how come someone thinks/believes what they > >>>> apparently > >>>> do. And so I wish that we would be asking more questions of each > >>>> other... > >>>> and perhaps saying things in less absolutist and knowing terms. > >>>> > >>>> David (again) wrote: > >>>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China > >>>> (my > >>>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing > >>>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... > >>>> > >>>> I "obviously" (and here it makes sense to use that word) cannot know > >>>> your > >>>> intention in writing what and how you wrote the above, as we cannot > >>>> know > >>>> each other's intentions. So I'll jump off from what you say and maybe > >>>> help > >>>> you see what I was trying to convey?75 teachers (not 1) told us in > >>>> different ways/phrases that they hadn't played since they were very > >>>> little > >>>> children. They weren't making any claims, neither for themselves as > >>>> individuals and certainly not for their generation. They were talking > >>>> with > >>>> us and sharing their experiences. I assume your wife has done the same > >>>> with > >>>> you, and that would be interesting to learn about. > >>>> > >>>> I'm off tonight to work in Frankfurt for the week, but if there is > >>>> further > >>>> conversation I will respond quickly. > >>>> > >>>> If any of you are interested in pursuing the topic of play and > >>>> performance > >>>> in our current context of capitalism's crisis, from my community's > >>>> perspective, you can view an event, What Developing in a World in > >>>> Crisis > >>>> which begins with 9 people from 8 countries speaking to how they see > >>>> the > >>>> development challenges in their countries, followed by a conversation > >>>> between me and a colleague, and then the audience. > >>>> > >>>> Again, thanks for including me, TED, play in your discussions, > >>>> Lois > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Lois Holzman > >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>> Social Media > >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>> Blogs > >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>> Websites > >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>> All Stars Project > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:31 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I wonder what Lois thinks about all of this discussion that Peter > >>>> started? > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> > >>>>> On Friday, June 20, 2014, David Kellogg > wrote: > >>>>> I agree completely with Tom's remarks. I remember that almost every > >>>> summer > >>>>> in Chicago between five and ten black children in the city would be > >>>>> murdered by police for playing with toy guns. Consider this: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/ > >>>>> > >>>>> To link this to the previous thread--I don't think that the article > >>>>> "What > >>>>> Theory is Not" has a workable definition of theory, and for that > >>>>> reason I > >>>>> found it little more than a list of complaints. But part of the > >>>> dialectical > >>>>> method is defining what things are by looking at what things are > >>>>> not: transgressing that boundary is precisely what we mean when we > say > >>>> that > >>>>> something is in the process of becoming what it is not. > >>>>> > >>>>> One of the problems of Lois's talk is that it doesn't give us a very > >>>> clear > >>>>> view of what play is not. But I would say that street kids talking to > >>>>> policemen about their fear of being gunned down in the street is a > >>>>> pretty > >>>>> good place to start. > >>>>> > >>>>> Lois herself recognizes in her talk that the conversations are not > >>>>> part > >>>> of > >>>>> the play. But then we need to look at when and where the activity > >>>>> stopped > >>>>> being play, and above all why. Otherwise we rob "play" of all of its > >>>>> content. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the same thing is true when we say that children play > >>>>> constantly, > >>>>> from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to bed (and > >>>>> Vygotsky, > >>>> of > >>>>> course, says the opposite--play is a "leading" activity but for that > >>>>> very > >>>>> reason we cannot say it is the main activity). > >>>>> > >>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>>> > >>>>> PS: Obviously, the teacher who claimed that their generation in China > >>>>> (my > >>>>> wife's generation) did not play after the age of two was just playing > >>>>> around with poor Lois. But that's no reason to play along... > >>>>> > >>>>> dk > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 20 June 2014 06:03, Tom Richardson < > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> A fascinating and moving 14+minutes of Lois ....only how I wish that > >>>>>> I > >>>> did > >>>>>> not subscribe to a class analysis which means that the last example > >>>>>> of > >>>> the > >>>>>> 'kids of colour' and the NYPD is called into deep question - will > the > >>>>>> lethal divides of capitalism's "special bodies of armed men" from > >>>>>> working-class citizens, (and of course it extends to imperialism's > >>>>>> destruction of whole countries), be 'overcome' by Play. Lois' > >>>> commitment > >>>>>> and passionate intelligence almost lets me believe it might, but I > >>>>>> know > >>>>>> that I'm fooling myself. > >>>>>> We need Play to evolve the next tranche of revolutionary strategy > and > >>>>>> tactics, but Play alone will never arrive at the necessity for > >>>>>> revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, only, from Lois' examples, > >>>>>> ultimately futile attempts at transcending class conflict, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tom Richardson > >>>>>> Middlesbrough > >>>>>> UK > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 19 June 2014 20:57, Carol Macdonald > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Well Lois > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That was splendid, awesome! All you serious XMCAers please watch. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Carol > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 13:48, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Here's the link, Carol. > >>>>>>>> http://tedxnavesink.com/project/lois-holzman/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman > >>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>>>>>> Social Media > >>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>>>>>> Blogs > >>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>>>>>> Websites > >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>>>>>> All Stars Project > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2014, at 3:02 AM, Carol Macdonald < > >>>> carolmacdon@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Louis > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Please could you send the link again? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>>>> Carol > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 19 June 2014 01:03, Lois Holzman < > >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi All, > >>>>>>>>>> Peter kindly posted a link to a talk I gave last month at a TEDx > >>>>>>>>>> event--TEDxNavesink Play. > >>>>>>>>>> Aside from the prep being among the hardest things I've ever > >>>> done > >>>>>>>> (staying > >>>>>>>>>> within their rules and structure, not being academic but saying > >>>>>>>> something > >>>>>>>>>> new for people to think about, and more), it was a delight to be > >>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> folks > >>>>>>>>>> who appreciate and value play--many of whom are affording > >>>> people in > >>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>> communities with the opportunity to play in all kinds of ways. > >>>> It > >>>>>> was > >>>>>>>>>> really growthful for me and my team. I was really pleased to > >>>>>> reconnect > >>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>> Peter Gray after many years and to meet other good people. The > >>>>>> one-day > >>>>>>>>>> event was organized are 4 P's--possibility, pleasure, progress > >>>> and > >>>>>>>> paradox. > >>>>>>>>>> I invite you all to include these talks within your conversation > >>>>>>>> here--even > >>>>>>>>>> though they're not theoretical. Maybe it's a new kind of play > >>>> for > >>>>>>> many. > >>>>>>>>>> Lois > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Lois Holzman > >>>>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term > >>>> Psychotherapy > >>>>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>>>>>>>> Social Media > >>>>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>>>>>>>> Blogs > >>>>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>>>>>>>> Websites > >>>>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>>>>>>>> All Stars Project > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >>>>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist > >>>>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >>>>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >>>>>>> Developmental psycholinguist > >>>>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >>>>>>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From achilles@delari.net Wed Jun 25 15:26:31 2014 From: achilles@delari.net (Achilles Delari Junior) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 19:26:31 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?IEFib3V0IFZ5Z290c2t5IGFuZCBCYXItS29raGJhIFvQkdCw0YAt?= =?utf-8?b?0JrQvtGF0LHQsCAo15HXqCDXm9eV15vXkdeQ4oCOKV0uIEJlbGxhIG9yIHNv?= =?utf-8?q?mebody_can_instruct_me=3F?= In-Reply-To: CAEUxSQEaG04+goJNOEQ4NckzTRPpm2Q1P_mypaGOJ-YhFGKRzw@mail.gmail.com Message-ID: <53ab4c97e0c84_50b59d7c02c8362@a4-winter13.mail> Nice to read you Bella, Peace and Health for you and all that you love. Ted was very clear and deep in his analysis, thank to him, because this help me very much, adding new important connections to the also interesting and serious considerings from David. This is very important here in Brazil, because many young people talking a about a revolution without know how, neither for what, even more with some "marxists" scholars talking about Education and Revolution as this word means something kind of change of fashion in the way we dress, forgot about Lenin's statement that "Revolution is War" - and for all international civilization, is right that we here live in a democracy - not the best one, of course, but 'revolution' for me is not a good word for popular manifestations claiming civil rights inside the actual legal order... But there people in university selling books about Education and Revolution. And I disagree and try to remember than something about historical concept embodied at this word... No so simple as talk about a "revolutionary method to learn a language faster", for instant. Actually in October Revolution there was not so enormous number of deaths, history show a very fast process. But the civil war between Reds and Whites there was a very sad lost of many lives of both sides. I was thinking about that three historical moments about Vygotsky wrote: (a) Bar Kokhba; (b) the Decabrists (not so numerous but also lost their cause) ; and (c) October Revolution. I wonder if was certain attraction by Vygotsky to insurgence process. You and Ted had wrote about the role of Vygotsky's father not in insurgence but in victorious resistance to pogrom(s). And that there was a dramatic situation in war when a Jew soldier kill an enemy and him in his last seconds of life did the pray of the same religion. And that there was a link of this political problems with de Jewish Enlightenment. I suspect that there was a dramatic (conflictive) situation again - to fight for liberation of his own ancestral tradition and/or fight for workers' class liberation... Tragically, the Nazis discourse repeatedly take hand of the false justifying that Jews in Germany was the Grate Capitalists and proprietaries of banks, etc., placing in scene an perverse kind of use of concept of class struggle. Without say nothing about catastrophic extermination of the "kulaks" in URSS. But, returning to the core, I though about the problem of oppression and liberation, and ????? ? ????????... the great image for the development of personality - I think about this ancient problem, the personal choices, and the all human kind destiny, trough de destiny of a entire nation before... how the to planes inter-constitute reciprocally. The memory of the ancestral inheritance, the prospective imagination and planning of the future for the new generations, and our common, everyday life, with play, learning of concepts, professional choices of the adolescent... and so on... Even Hamlet feel oppressed by the vision of crime against her father, living him alone, and the doubt about continue to live and kill himself. Its curious, because he decides to leave, but leaving he is fatally oriented to dead duelling against the traitors. This typical of tragedy, the hero find his destiny even more he tries to scape of it... How to be a developed personality, a free person, when the social group, or the entire social class, are ever in fight for the freedom we never have? Only when Messiah arrives? Only in the day of Final Judgement? Of course this is not only a problem of researchers in Human Sciences, but of every citizen of this world not really in peace yet. But. as a psychologist I must to think about other spheres of social relations that not only dyads or little groups as in a classroom. I don't know. My life is really not so bad, but what I can say about the others?... What mission I will have. What can I do? "??? ??????"? There is no single answer, but I must to making sense of relation between personal concerns and broader social national and international concerns. Of course people follow an international mail academic list not only to distraction, but mainly because there important things to learn one with other. Thank you, I am in a Zone of instability of sense of life "The Crisis of the 45 years"... But your precious contribution give me many keys to organize better my projects for the rest o my life, which must be not so long, I guess. Best regards, greetings for you, Ted, and al XMCA... Achilles from Brazil. ______________ P.S. Think about the same problems I was trying to read "Teatr i Revolutsia" by Vigotski, 1919. But my copy is very hard to recognize the characters. I saw your paper that quotes this source. Maybe, if you pleased, can you give a clue of how to order a copy from the correct institution? In Russian National Library of Sainkt Peterburg I do not find, for instance. But this is not so nuclear, is one more source to think about Way for Freedom / Insurgence / Personality Development... This is a social/personal, autobiographical concern for me, I already was arrested because political motives, and this destruct all my future perspectives along more than 10 years, because I fall very seek in prison, and never return to good health after. You fight for freedom and them you turn all your life more restrict, sometimes... but we must "perejivaem" - in the sense given by Vasiliuk... overcome critical situations. And critical situations are not only accidents in our lives... Vygotsky said the crisis is a way to interior life too. ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? De: "Bella Kotik-Friedgut" Em: Ter?a-feira 24 de Junho de 2014 12:44, Para: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: About Vygotsky and Bar-Kokhba [???-????? (?? ??????)]. Bella or somebody can instruct me?Achiles shalomSorry for a delay, but we were on the way from 3rd Estoril Vygotskyconference. These conferences (every 2 years) became traditional and thedates of the N4 in June 2016 are already fixed- 12-14/06. I wonder whatcould be a good reason (motivation, incentive) for xmca members to takepart in 4th EVC of the next time? Estoril is a beautiful resort on theAthlantic shore and Quintino Aires the organizer is a very generous host.As about Bar Kochba I asked my husband Ted Friedgut, who knows Jewishhistory better to answer you and here what he say: Bar Kochba has been a controversial character since the time of his lifeand remains so to this day. By no means all the Rabbis of his timeregarded him as a Messianic figure, but the great authority of Rabbi Akivawho supported Bar Kochba whole heartedly was sufficient to outweigh hisdetractors. Even as recently as 1982, Yehoshafat Harkabi, a HebrewUniversity professor of International Relations wrote a book with the title?The Bar Kochba Syndrome: Fantasy and Realism in International Relations?pointing to the disastrous outcome of the Bar Kochba revolt againstRome?580,000 war dead and uncounted thousands more who perished of diseaseand famine during the three year war; fifty towns and 597 villages razed tothe ground by the vengeful Roman armies, a total destruction of Jewishpublic and religious life in Palestine. All this is attributed to theunrealistic fanaticism that drove Bar Kochba?s war against the Roman Empire. In 1882, Avraham Goldfaden wrote an operetta on the life anddeeds of Bar Kochba, seeking to encourage jewish morale and resistance tothe pogrom wave that swept Russia following the assassination of AlexanderII. It is most likely this presentation of Bar Kochba that Lev Vygotskysaw and about which he wrote in his role as theater critic for the Gomel?local newspaper in April 1923. His praise of Bar Kochba as a revolutionaryrepresentative of the younger generation in defiance of the older, morecautious religious-political establishment can certainly be viewed asautobiographical, for Vygotsky too, was acting against the older Jewishestablishment in adopting Marxist socialism as the best way to build a new,universal and just society.Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-FriedgutOn Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:> Please, dear professors,>>> In front Vygotsky's publications about poetry, theatre and arts in> general, from Gomel's 1921/1922 period, I turn motivated to know something> about the relation of Vygotsky as man (tchelovek), citizen and young> thinker, with different kinds of insurgent social process, struggling for> freedom. For instance there are, at least, 3 different situations of this> kind touched by him in those newspaper publications : (1) Bar-Kohba; (2)> The Dekabrists; and (3) October Revolution. But what more deeply touch me> is just the first one, because I really do not know nothing about, and> seems to be very very important in Jewish long history for Land and> Freedom. And, believe me or not, this is important for many people here in> my country, not necessarily Jews. If you pleased, could you help me to find> more reliable sources about the historical process in which was envolved> Bar-Kohba? If the answer would be excessively obvious - sorry for spend> your time with me. I will search better by myself. Thank you, a lot.>>> Achilles, from Brazil.>> From ablunden@mira.net Thu Jun 26 22:39:22 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 15:39:22 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Collaborative projects Message-ID: <53AD038A.2090608@mira.net> The edited volume on collaborative projects is now in print: http://www.brill.com/products/book/collaborative-projects It's far too expensive for anyone here to buy, until the paperback comes out in a year's time, but if anyone is in a position to get their libraries to buy it, you could get it that way. Or if you can convince some journal to commission you to review it, we can get you a free copy. Here's the Table of Contents: Introduction: ?Collaborative project? - <#_Toc375659562>Andy Blunden <#_Toc375659563> Part 1: Research Projects 1 The projective method as the basis of continuous education 33 <#_Toc375659572>- G. G. Kravtsov & E. E. Kravtsova <#_Toc375659573> 2 The dialectics of collective and individual transformation. 45 <#_Toc375659578> - Eduardo Vianna, Naja Hougaard & Anna Stetsenko <#_Toc375659579> 3 Could Life Be? Producing subjectivity in participation. 65 <#_Toc375659582> - Morten Nissen <#_Toc375659583> 4 Rhythms of collaboration. 81 <#_Toc375659584> - Vera John-Steiner <#_Toc375659585> 5 Seeking to combat educational inequality: The 5th Dimension. 89 <#_Toc375659589> - Michael Cole & Virginia Gordon & William Blanton <#_Toc375659590> 6 Formation of the concept of ?Collaborative Learning Space?. 111 <#_Toc375659595> - Andy Blunden & Michael Arnold <#_Toc375659596> 7 Mayslake: Starting from scratch. 123 <#_Toc375659597> - Helena Worthen <#_Toc375659598> 8 The collaborative project of public deliberation. 137 <#_Toc375659602> - Ron Lubensky <#_Toc375659603> 9 Vygotskian collaborative project of social transformation. 151 <#_Toc375659605> - Anna Stetsenko & Igor M. Arievitch <#_Toc375659606> 10 Change through collaboration. 165 <#_Toc375659609> - Jennifer Power <#_Toc375659610> 11 The miracle fiber exposed as a deadly threat 179 <#_Toc375659614> - Lynn Beaton & Andy Blunden <#_Toc375659615> 12 Tahrir: A project(ion) of revolutionary change. 193 <#_Toc375659619> - Brecht De Smet <#_Toc375659620> Part 2: Reflections 13 Alterglobalization and the Limits of Prefigurative Politics. 213 <#_Toc375659626> - Brecht De Smet <#_Toc375659627> 14 A reflection on the feminist movement 217 <#_Toc375659628> - Lynn Beaton <#_Toc375659629> 15 The peer activist learning community: A peer perspective. 221 <#_Toc375659630> - Mike Rifino, Keiko Matsuura & Francisco Medina <#_Toc375659631> 16 Reflection on collective and individual transformation. 225 <#_Toc375659632> - Ron Lubensky <#_Toc375659633> 17 Play through the prism of projects. 229 <#_Toc375659634> - Natalia Gajdamaschko <#_Toc375659635> 18 Human flourishing in developmental education schools. 233 <#_Toc375659636> - Chiel van der Veen & Lynne Wolbert <#_Toc375659637> 19 Reflection on complementarity and mutual appropriation. 237 <#_Toc375659638> - Vera John-Steiner <#_Toc375659639> 20 Spirited collaborations. 241 <#_Toc375659640> - Greg Thompson <#_Toc375659641> 21 Emotional commitment 245 <#_Toc375659642> - Manfred Holodynski <#_Toc375659643> 22 Projects, activity systems. 249 <#_Toc375659644> - Helena Worthen <#_Toc375659645> 23 Toward a mesogenetic methodology. 253 <#_Toc375659646> - Michael Cole <#_Toc375659647> 24 Conclusion: Time and activity. 259 <#_Toc375659648> - Andy <#_Toc375659647> Blunden Index <#_Toc375659648> 259 <#_Toc375659648> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From ablunden@mira.net Fri Jun 27 06:10:54 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 23:10:54 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collaborative projects In-Reply-To: <53AD038A.2090608@mira.net> References: <53AD038A.2090608@mira.net> Message-ID: <53AD6D5E.7000706@mira.net> Critical Sociology has said they will provide a free copy to someone in the US who can do a review of the book for them. So here's an opporunity for someone with a critical-sociological bent to get a free copy. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > The edited volume on collaborative projects is now in print: > http://www.brill.com/products/book/collaborative-projects > > It's far too expensive for anyone here to buy, until the paperback > comes out in a year's time, but if anyone is in a position to get > their libraries to buy it, you could get it that way. Or if you can > convince some journal to commission you to review it, we can get you a > free copy. > > Here's the Table of Contents: > Introduction: ?Collaborative project? - Andy Blunden > Part 1: Research Projects > 1 The projective method as the basis of continuous education - G. G. > Kravtsov & E. E. Kravtsova > 2 The dialectics of collective and individual transformation.- Eduardo > Vianna, Naja Hougaard & Anna Stetsenko > 3 Could Life Be? Producing subjectivity in participation. - Morten Nissen > 4 Rhythms of collaboration. - Vera John-Steiner > 5 Seeking to combat educational inequality: The 5th Dimension. - > Michael Cole & Virginia Gordon & William Blanton > 6 Formation of the concept of ?Collaborative Learning Space?. - Andy > Blunden & Michael Arnold > 7 Mayslake: Starting from scratch. - Helena Worthen > 8 The collaborative project of public deliberation. - Ron Lubensky > 9 Vygotskian collaborative project of social transformation. - Anna > Stetsenko & Igor M. Arievitch > 10 Change through collaboration. - Jennifer Power > 11 The miracle fiber exposed as a deadly threat - Lynn Beaton & Andy > Blunden > 12 Tahrir: A project(ion) of revolutionary change. - Brecht De Smet > Part 2: Reflections > 13 Alterglobalization and the Limits of Prefigurative Politics. - > Brecht De Smet > 14 A reflection on the feminist movement - Lynn Beaton > 15 The peer activist learning community: A peer perspective. - Mike > Rifino, Keiko Matsuura & Francisco Medina > 16 Reflection on collective and individual transformation. - Ron Lubensky > 17 Play through the prism of projects. 229 - Natalia Gajdamaschko > 18 Human flourishing in developmental education schools. - Chiel van > der Veen & Lynne Wolbert > 19 Reflection on complementarity and mutual appropriation. - Vera > John-Steiner > 20 Spirited collaborations. - Greg Thompson > 21 Emotional commitment - Manfred Holodynski > 22 Projects, activity systems. - Helena Worthen > 23 Toward a mesogenetic methodology. - Michael Cole > 24 Conclusion: Time and activity. - Andy Blunden > > From lspopov@bgsu.edu Fri Jun 27 10:01:40 2014 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:01:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Collaborative projects BOOK REVIEW candidate Message-ID: Hi Andy, First, congratulations for this exceptional achievement! I see a new domain of activity theory emerging -- your project theory approach, or the projectification of the social reality. I am interested to review the book for Critical Sociology. Is there a specific person to contact for this? I don't want just to give a "cold call" to the book editor. Best, Lubo -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 9:11 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collaborative projects Critical Sociology has said they will provide a free copy to someone in the US who can do a review of the book for them. So here's an opporunity for someone with a critical-sociological bent to get a free copy. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Andy Blunden wrote: > The edited volume on collaborative projects is now in print: > http://www.brill.com/products/book/collaborative-projects > > It's far too expensive for anyone here to buy, until the paperback > comes out in a year's time, but if anyone is in a position to get > their libraries to buy it, you could get it that way. Or if you can > convince some journal to commission you to review it, we can get you a > free copy. > > Here's the Table of Contents: > Introduction: 'Collaborative project' - Andy Blunden Part 1: Research > Projects > 1 The projective method as the basis of continuous education - G. G. > Kravtsov & E. E. Kravtsova > 2 The dialectics of collective and individual transformation.- Eduardo > Vianna, Naja Hougaard & Anna Stetsenko > 3 Could Life Be... Producing subjectivity in participation. - Morten > Nissen > 4 Rhythms of collaboration. - Vera John-Steiner > 5 Seeking to combat educational inequality: The 5th Dimension. - > Michael Cole & Virginia Gordon & William Blanton > 6 Formation of the concept of "Collaborative Learning Space". - Andy > Blunden & Michael Arnold > 7 Mayslake: Starting from scratch. - Helena Worthen > 8 The collaborative project of public deliberation. - Ron Lubensky > 9 Vygotskian collaborative project of social transformation. - Anna > Stetsenko & Igor M. Arievitch > 10 Change through collaboration. - Jennifer Power > 11 The miracle fiber exposed as a deadly threat - Lynn Beaton & Andy > Blunden > 12 Tahrir: A project(ion) of revolutionary change. - Brecht De Smet > Part 2: Reflections > 13 Alterglobalization and the Limits of Prefigurative Politics. - > Brecht De Smet > 14 A reflection on the feminist movement - Lynn Beaton > 15 The peer activist learning community: A peer perspective. - Mike > Rifino, Keiko Matsuura & Francisco Medina > 16 Reflection on collective and individual transformation. - Ron > Lubensky > 17 Play through the prism of projects. 229 - Natalia Gajdamaschko > 18 Human flourishing in developmental education schools. - Chiel van > der Veen & Lynne Wolbert > 19 Reflection on complementarity and mutual appropriation. - Vera > John-Steiner > 20 Spirited collaborations. - Greg Thompson > 21 Emotional commitment - Manfred Holodynski > 22 Projects, activity systems. - Helena Worthen > 23 Toward a mesogenetic methodology. - Michael Cole > 24 Conclusion: Time and activity. - Andy Blunden > > From lstone@skymail.csus.edu Sat Jun 28 21:07:43 2014 From: lstone@skymail.csus.edu (Stone, Lynda) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 04:07:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collaborative projects BOOK REVIEW candidate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andy! Yes, congratulations! It's now on our library's list of books to get-- cheers! -lynda On Jun 27, 2014, at 10:01 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Hi Andy, > > First, congratulations for this exceptional achievement! I see a new domain of activity theory emerging -- your project theory approach, or the projectification of the social reality. > > I am interested to review the book for Critical Sociology. Is there a specific person to contact for this? I don't want just to give a "cold call" to the book editor. > > Best, > > Lubo > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 9:11 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collaborative projects > > Critical Sociology has said they will provide a free copy to someone in the US who can do a review of the book for them. > So here's an opporunity for someone with a critical-sociological bent to get a free copy. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Andy Blunden wrote: >> The edited volume on collaborative projects is now in print: >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/collaborative-projects >> >> It's far too expensive for anyone here to buy, until the paperback >> comes out in a year's time, but if anyone is in a position to get >> their libraries to buy it, you could get it that way. Or if you can >> convince some journal to commission you to review it, we can get you a >> free copy. >> >> Here's the Table of Contents: >> Introduction: 'Collaborative project' - Andy Blunden Part 1: Research >> Projects >> 1 The projective method as the basis of continuous education - G. G. >> Kravtsov & E. E. Kravtsova >> 2 The dialectics of collective and individual transformation.- Eduardo >> Vianna, Naja Hougaard & Anna Stetsenko >> 3 Could Life Be... Producing subjectivity in participation. - Morten >> Nissen >> 4 Rhythms of collaboration. - Vera John-Steiner >> 5 Seeking to combat educational inequality: The 5th Dimension. - >> Michael Cole & Virginia Gordon & William Blanton >> 6 Formation of the concept of "Collaborative Learning Space". - Andy >> Blunden & Michael Arnold >> 7 Mayslake: Starting from scratch. - Helena Worthen >> 8 The collaborative project of public deliberation. - Ron Lubensky >> 9 Vygotskian collaborative project of social transformation. - Anna >> Stetsenko & Igor M. Arievitch >> 10 Change through collaboration. - Jennifer Power >> 11 The miracle fiber exposed as a deadly threat - Lynn Beaton & Andy >> Blunden >> 12 Tahrir: A project(ion) of revolutionary change. - Brecht De Smet >> Part 2: Reflections >> 13 Alterglobalization and the Limits of Prefigurative Politics. - >> Brecht De Smet >> 14 A reflection on the feminist movement - Lynn Beaton >> 15 The peer activist learning community: A peer perspective. - Mike >> Rifino, Keiko Matsuura & Francisco Medina >> 16 Reflection on collective and individual transformation. - Ron >> Lubensky >> 17 Play through the prism of projects. 229 - Natalia Gajdamaschko >> 18 Human flourishing in developmental education schools. - Chiel van >> der Veen & Lynne Wolbert >> 19 Reflection on complementarity and mutual appropriation. - Vera >> John-Steiner >> 20 Spirited collaborations. - Greg Thompson >> 21 Emotional commitment - Manfred Holodynski >> 22 Projects, activity systems. - Helena Worthen >> 23 Toward a mesogenetic methodology. - Michael Cole >> 24 Conclusion: Time and activity. - Andy Blunden >> >> > > From leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com Sun Jun 29 00:45:41 2014 From: leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com (Leif Strandberg) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 09:45:41 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Nordic ISCAR 2013 anthology In-Reply-To: References: <52F9EE3C0200005E0004410A@oes-grpwise.novell.upei.ca> Message-ID: Hej 5 l?rdagar fram?ver har jag Tankar f?r dagen p? radions P1, klockan 06.03? med repris p? kv?llen 21.45. Du kan lyssna n?r du vill (om du vill) p? n?tet http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/388864?programid=1165 Leif 14 feb 2014 kl. 14:23 skrev Hans Knutag?rd : > Dear friends, > > for your information: > > Finally ? the Nordic ISCAR 2013 anthology is completed! > > [ > http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diva-portal.org%2Fsmash%2Fget%2Fdiva2%3A696493%2FFULLTEXT01.pdf&h=HAQET2Ko_&enc=AZM8O54UTEF9q1cPX8r8Wh99fCCUaj6Gb5YhleMYwdQo0qJRoaowW0IHxb0znnPcTABQyrOsYUzlbUH1jUhRedxqbFvm4WtagzHrOC7soREYaM8J3dV4o0Qco > NE5MNrrsvG_EixECekFurrFHde-ra4X&s=1 > ]http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:696493/FULLTEXT01.pdf > > Yours > Hans Knutag?rd > > Universitetslektor i socialt arbete/Senior Lecturer in social work > Sektionen f?r h?lsa och samh?lle/Department of Health and Society > 291 88 H?gskolan Kristianstad/SE-291 88 Kristianstad University, Sweden > Tel: 044-20 38 25 / Phone +46 (0)44-20 38 25 > e-mail: hans.knutagard@hkr.se > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Sun Jun 29 08:51:41 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:51:41 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collaborative projects BOOK REVIEW candidate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88B2E5C8-59E4-4A84-A035-8FF21603E2FA@gmail.com> What a beautiful book, Andy! Congratulations! David On Jun 27, 2014, at 1:01 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > Hi Andy, > > First, congratulations for this exceptional achievement! I see a new domain of activity theory emerging -- your project theory approach, or the projectification of the social reality. > > I am interested to review the book for Critical Sociology. Is there a specific person to contact for this? I don't want just to give a "cold call" to the book editor. > > Best, > > Lubo > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 9:11 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Collaborative projects > > Critical Sociology has said they will provide a free copy to someone in the US who can do a review of the book for them. > So here's an opporunity for someone with a critical-sociological bent to get a free copy. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Andy Blunden wrote: >> The edited volume on collaborative projects is now in print: >> http://www.brill.com/products/book/collaborative-projects >> >> It's far too expensive for anyone here to buy, until the paperback >> comes out in a year's time, but if anyone is in a position to get >> their libraries to buy it, you could get it that way. Or if you can >> convince some journal to commission you to review it, we can get you a >> free copy. >> >> Here's the Table of Contents: >> Introduction: 'Collaborative project' - Andy Blunden Part 1: Research >> Projects >> 1 The projective method as the basis of continuous education - G. G. >> Kravtsov & E. E. Kravtsova >> 2 The dialectics of collective and individual transformation.- Eduardo >> Vianna, Naja Hougaard & Anna Stetsenko >> 3 Could Life Be... Producing subjectivity in participation. - Morten >> Nissen >> 4 Rhythms of collaboration. - Vera John-Steiner >> 5 Seeking to combat educational inequality: The 5th Dimension. - >> Michael Cole & Virginia Gordon & William Blanton >> 6 Formation of the concept of "Collaborative Learning Space". - Andy >> Blunden & Michael Arnold >> 7 Mayslake: Starting from scratch. - Helena Worthen >> 8 The collaborative project of public deliberation. - Ron Lubensky >> 9 Vygotskian collaborative project of social transformation. - Anna >> Stetsenko & Igor M. Arievitch >> 10 Change through collaboration. - Jennifer Power >> 11 The miracle fiber exposed as a deadly threat - Lynn Beaton & Andy >> Blunden >> 12 Tahrir: A project(ion) of revolutionary change. - Brecht De Smet >> Part 2: Reflections >> 13 Alterglobalization and the Limits of Prefigurative Politics. - >> Brecht De Smet >> 14 A reflection on the feminist movement - Lynn Beaton >> 15 The peer activist learning community: A peer perspective. - Mike >> Rifino, Keiko Matsuura & Francisco Medina >> 16 Reflection on collective and individual transformation. - Ron >> Lubensky >> 17 Play through the prism of projects. 229 - Natalia Gajdamaschko >> 18 Human flourishing in developmental education schools. - Chiel van >> der Veen & Lynne Wolbert >> 19 Reflection on complementarity and mutual appropriation. - Vera >> John-Steiner >> 20 Spirited collaborations. - Greg Thompson >> 21 Emotional commitment - Manfred Holodynski >> 22 Projects, activity systems. - Helena Worthen >> 23 Toward a mesogenetic methodology. - Michael Cole >> 24 Conclusion: Time and activity. - Andy Blunden >> >> > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Sun Jun 29 17:47:20 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 20:47:20 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Facebook's Secret Mood Manipulation Experiment - Atlantic Mobile Message-ID: <5CFC671A-7EE9-4FAF-A619-6EB5612780D3@gmail.com> http://m.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/06/everything-we-know-about-facebooks-secret-mood-manipulation-experiment/373648/ Enviado desde mi iPhone From djwdoc@yahoo.com Sun Jun 29 20:00:50 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 20:00:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Power of Play Message-ID: <1404097250.97331.YahooMailNeo@web164706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- Hi-- I happened on the radio program To the Best of Our Knowledge, and the program put me in the mind of seeing what people on XMCA might have to say about the sections on books by Peter Grey, and by Ron Suskind. Peter Grey is probably a known quantity to some of you. As someone who has been in and around classrooms for much of my life, both as a rebel and a structurer of classrooms, quite a lot of what he had to say struck sparks from my experience, and seemed interesting in relation to CHAT--particularly the idea of play as a medium of becoming a creative agent in one's own experience with the culture and perceptions one receives from the world. Perhaps even more interesting is the interview with Ron Suskind, who found his autistic son had turned Disney films into a toolset through which he could structure communications with others in the world--something Donna Williams hinted at in Nobody Nowhere some years ago. The idea of turning memorized narratives and characters into mediums of communication and behavior mediation is old indeed--perhaps the traditional purpose of poetry in human culture. Both of these stories testify to the function of play as the means of taking control of externalized narratives, so that they serve both as a medium of interaction with the environment and a medium of creative agency and identity-creation. The Power of Play The Power of Play Remember what it was like to be a kid, playing outside with friends for hours at a time? Sure, it may just seem like fun and games,?but?it?may also have been?... View on www.ttbook.org Preview by Yahoo ? ? Regards, Doug From ablunden@mira.net Sun Jun 29 20:31:44 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 13:31:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] videos Message-ID: <53B0DA20.90205@mira.net> This is just to let people know that the recent videos concerning play are now listed in the vimeo CHAT group, together with interesting presentations by Anna Stetsenko and Eduardo Vianna: https://vimeo.com/groups/39473/videos/ Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Jun 29 23:03:34 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 23:03:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: videos In-Reply-To: <53B0DA20.90205@mira.net> References: <53B0DA20.90205@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, thanks for these links. I watched Anna's presentation comparing and contrasting *transactional* and *transformative* models of development. Her recognizing that the transactional does not engage deeply with the *ethical* aspect of engagement when transactional models focus on *adaptation* is an interesting perspective. I wonder how others responded to Anna's presentation? Larry On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > This is just to let people know that the recent videos concerning play are > now listed in the vimeo CHAT group, together with interesting presentations > by Anna Stetsenko and Eduardo Vianna: > https://vimeo.com/groups/39473/videos/ > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Jun 30 13:02:40 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 16:02:40 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Power of Play In-Reply-To: <1404097250.97331.YahooMailNeo@web164706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1404097250.97331.YahooMailNeo@web164706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for this link. Here's another site for interviews with diverse people in the play world? a Blog Radio show, Creativity in Play. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/creativityinplay Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Jun 29, 2014, at 11:00 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: > Hi-- > > Hi-- > I happened on the radio program To the Best of Our Knowledge, and the program put me in the mind of seeing what people on XMCA might have to say about the sections on books by Peter Grey, and by Ron Suskind. > > Peter Grey is probably a known quantity to some of you. As someone who has been in and around classrooms for much of my life, both as a rebel and a structurer of classrooms, quite a lot of what he had to say struck sparks from my experience, and seemed interesting in relation to CHAT--particularly the idea of play as a medium of becoming a creative agent in one's own experience with the culture and perceptions one receives from the world. > > > Perhaps even more interesting is the interview with Ron Suskind, who found his autistic son had turned Disney films into a toolset through which he could structure communications with others in the world--something Donna Williams hinted at in Nobody Nowhere some years ago. The idea of turning memorized narratives and characters into mediums of communication and behavior mediation is old indeed--perhaps the traditional purpose of poetry in human culture. > > Both of these stories testify to the function of play as the means of taking control of externalized narratives, so that they serve both as a medium of interaction with the environment and a medium of creative agency and identity-creation. > > > The Power of Play > > > > The Power of Play > Remember what it was like to be a kid, playing outside with friends for hours at a time? Sure, it may just seem like fun and games, but it may also have been ... > View on www.ttbook.org Preview by Yahoo > > > Regards, > Doug