[Xmca-l] Re: Metaphors

[Robert Lake]

Hi Everyone,
I appreciate this thread's emphasis on  the relativistic character of
metaphoric language and find think that it supports Vygotsky's notion of
the fluid nature of language as it emerges from socio-cultural and
socio-historical contexts in meaning making (in contrast to biological
determinism). Because each culture makes meaning in widely diverse ways,
language forms and usage might have complex intricacies and shades of
meaning on one concept alone. Along with the example  of early 20th century
Hopi's view of time, there are other more recent examples from the present
day that suggest ways that language can shape thought .

Consider the Australian aboriginal language, Guugu Yimithirr, from north
Queensland who have no words for right or left, in front of, or behind to
describe location. Instead they use the points of the compass even when
requesting that someone move over to make room. They will say “move a bit
to the east.” To tell you where exactly they left something in your house,
they’ll say, “I left it on the southern edge of the western table.” (Deutscher,
2010, p. MM 42)

The effect on the thinking of this group is phenomenal in orienting the
speakers to their directional spatial environment to such a degree that
roughly 1 out of every 10 words in conversational Guugu Yimithirr  includes
either north, south, east or west and is accompanied with precise  hand
gestures (ibid). Consequently in this culture, language acquisition
involves constant awareness of spaces relative to the points of the
compass.  Deutscher relays a fascinating story about the ways that memory
is stored for the speakers of this language.  The story also serves as a
clear example of Vygotsky’s notion of language as a mediating tool as a
means of creating higher levels of consciousness through spatial
kinesthetic approaches to meaning creation.



One Guugu Yimithirr speaker was filmed telling his friends the story of how
in his youth, he capsized in shark-infested waters. He and an older person
were caught in a storm, and their boat tipped over. They both jumped into
the water and managed to swim nearly three miles to the shore, only to
discover that the missionary for whom they worked was far more concerned at
the loss of the boat than relieved at their miraculous escape. Apart from
the dramatic content, the remarkable thing about the story was that it was
remembered throughout in cardinal directions: the speaker jumped into the
water on the western side of the boat, his companion to the east of the
boat, they saw a giant shark swimming north and so on. Perhaps the cardinal
directions were just made up for the occasion? Well, quite by chance, the
same person was filmed some years later telling the same story. The
cardinal directions matched exactly in the two tellings. Even more
remarkable were the spontaneous hand gestures that accompanied the story.
For instance, the direction in which the boat rolled over was gestured in
the correct geographic orientation, regardless of the direction the speaker
was facing in the two films (ibid).


*Robert*


Deutscher, G. (2010, August 29) Does your language shape how you think? *The
New York Times* *Sunday Magazine, *p. MM 42.




On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 4:05 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, Haliday is essentially a Whorfian, and that's one of things that
> brings him close to Vygotsky. (Compare, for example, Chomsky, who is
> essentially anti-developmental in his ideas about language, and who now
> rejects the leading role played by social communication and says that
> communication is epiphenomenal to language, whose original purpose is
> thought.) For Sapir, and for Whorf, in the beginning of every major
> onotogenetic, sociogenetic, and even phylogenetic change in language there
> has to be some change in the nature of communication.
>
> So what Andy says about the lack of the basis of modern science in Hopi
> applies perfectly well to English. When we read the scientific writings of
> Chaucer on the astrolabe, for example, we do not see words like
> "reflection", "refraction" or "alignment". Chaucer uses words like "bounce
> off", "bend through", and "line up" (note the use of prepositions,
> Helena!). Where did these words come from, and how did they make scientific
> English possible?
>
> Most of us have no problem saying that Isaac Newton discovered the laws of
> gravitation. But it's only a slight exaggeration to say that what he really
> discovered was the meaning potential of words like "gravitation". Gravity
> is, of course, not a thing at all; that is, it's not an entity, but rather
> a process, the process of falling down, or falling in (preps, again!). So
> how and above all why does it become an entity?
>
> It's interesting to compare Newton's writings on optics with Chaucer's on
> the astrolabe. The "Opticks" has a fixed format that we recognize almost
> instantly today: Newton describes his equipment (the prism and the dark
> room); he then narrates his method as a kind of recipe ("First, I did this;
> then I did that") and draws conclusions, which he then formulates in
> mathematical terms (this is essentially the format of Vygotsky's lectures
> on pedology, so much so that when translating them we had some trouble
> determining the precise moment when Vygotsky turns to the blackboard to
> write his conclusion in the form of a law).
>
> In order to get them into mathematical shape, though, he has to make
> sentences that look a lot like equations. "The plumpness of the lens yields
> a greater refraction of the light", "The reflection of the light from the
> glass results of the light striking the flatness of the glass" "The
> curvature of the spectacle glass supplies the lacking plumpness of the
> eye". In each of these, a quality or a process which would normally be
> realized as an adjective or a verb is suddenly realized by a noun, creating
> an imaginary entity.
>
> That's grammatical metaphor. Something that is "canonically" realized by a
> verb ("to grow") is suddenly realized nominally ("growth"), or something
> that is canonically a quality ('red") is realized verbally ("redden"). We
> even find related clauses realized as verbs ("She did not know the rules.
> So she died" is realized by "Death was brought about through ignorance",
> all of these examples from Halliday). In fact, the Genetic Law that
> Vygotsky formulates in "Mind in Society" ("Every higher mental function is
> realized on two planes....") is really just one instance of grammatical
> metaphor.
>
> One of Chomsky's best known arguments for the radical innateness hypothesis
> is this. If I take a sentence like "Students who do not do their homework
> do not do well" and I want to make a question, how do I know which "do" to
> move to the front? Chomsky assumes that this knowledge is essentially
> innate; it is part of universal grammar. But you can see that "Do students
> who do not do their homework do well?" can be built up through a process of
> what we might call "discourse metaphor"--whereby clauses stand for
> exchanges:
>
> Mother: You did your homework, didn't you?
> Child: No.
> Mother: You didn't do your homework? Did you do well?
> Child: No.
> Mother: You didn't do well?
> Child: No.
> Mother: You didn't do you homework so you didn't do well. Do the other
> students do well?
> Child: Some of them.
> Mother: Who does well? Do students who do not do their homework do well?
>
> And this of course explains why wh-items like "who" and 'why" have two
> functions--one inside a clause, where it expresses an intra-mental function
> (grammar) and one between them where it expresses an inter-mental function
> (discourse).
>
> I realize that grammatical metaphor will seem rather dry and abstract and
> unpoetic to people who assume that metaphor is only of the lexical kind.
> But to me, and I think to most children, it is far far more powerful and
> far more important developmentally. In some ways, it's the lexical metaphor
> that is responsible for the disenchantment of the child's world, while the
> grammatical metaphor infinitely expands it. (And here, I'm afraid, I must
> stop--it's time for breakfast and anyway my one screen is used up!)
>
> David Kellogg
> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>
>
>
> , or "the
>
> . He
>
> On 19 December 2014 at 15:15, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Helena and David,
> > I wonder if this quote below from Benjamin Whorf (one of the so-called
> > authors of the Linguistic Relativity Hypothesis - a kindred tradition to
> > Vygotsky's) might be useful. In it Whorf is comparing the Hopi notion of
> > "time" to the SAE (Standard Average European - including English) notion
> of
> > "time" and how each of these languages offers different affordances of
> > meaning. Whereas Hopi has a much more processual understanding, English
> has
> > a much more reified/objectified/entified sense of time. (btw, I think the
> > first paragraph is easier to follow than the second - and in that first
> > paragraph you'll find our old friend "imagination").
> > David, does this jibe with what you were pointing to?
> > -greg
> >
> > Taken from:
> >
> >
> http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/mousesite/Secondary/Whorfframe2.html
> >
> > " "Such terms as summer, winter, September, morning, noon, sunset" are
> with
> > us nouns, and have little formal linguistic difference from other nouns.
> > They can be subjects or objects, and we say "at sunset" or "in winter"
> just
> > as we say "at a corner" or "in an orchard." They are pluralized and
> > numerated like nouns of physical objects, as we have seen. Our thought
> > about the referents of such words hence becomes objectified. Without
> > objectification, it would be a subjective experience of real time, i.e.
> of
> > the consciousness of "becoming later and later"--simply a cyclic phase
> > similar to an earlier phase in that ever-later-becoming duration. Only by
> > imagination can such a cyclic phase be set beside another and another in
> > the manner of a spatial (i.e. visually perceived) configuration. "But
> such
> > is the power of linguistic analogy that we do so objectify cyclic
> phasing.
> > We do it even by saying "a phase" and "phases" instead of e.g.,
> "phasing."
> > And the pattern of individual and mass nouns, with the resulting binomial
> > formula of formless item plus form, is so general that it is implicit for
> > all nouns, and hence our very generalized formless items like "substance,
> > matter," by which we can fill out the binomial for an enormously wide
> range
> > of nouns. But even these are not quite generalized enough to take in our
> > phase nouns. So for the phase nouns we have made a formless item, "time."
> > We have made it by using "a time," i.e. an occasion or a phase, in the
> > pattern of a mass noun, just as from "a summer" we make "summer" in the
> > pattern of a mass noun. Thus with our binomial formula we can say and
> think
> > "a moment of time, a second of time, a year of time." Let me again point
> > out that the pattern is simply that of "a bottle of milk" or "a piece of
> > cheese." Thus we are assisted to imagine that "a summer" actually
> contains
> > or consists of such-and-such a quantity of "time."
> >
> > In Hopi however all phase terms, like "summer, morning," etc., are not
> > nouns but a kind of adverb, to use the nearest SAE analogy. They are a
> > formal part of speech by themselves, distinct from nouns, verbs, and even
> > other Hopi "adverbs." Such a word is not a case form or a locative
> pattern,
> > like "des Abends" or "in the morning." It contains no morpheme like one
> of
> > "in the house" or "at the tree." It means "when it is morning" or "while
> > morning-phase is occurring." These "temporal s" are not used as subjects
> or
> > objects, or at all like nouns. One does not say "it's a hot summer" or
> > "summer is hot"; summer is not hot, summer is only WHEN conditions are
> hot,
> > WHEN heat occurs. One does not say "THIS summer," but "summer now" or
> > "summer recently." There is no objectification, as a region, an extent, a
> > quantity, of the subjective duration feeling. Nothing is suggested about
> > time except the perpetual "getting later" of it. And so there is no basis
> > here for a formless item answering to our "time." "
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > David, I am with you and etremeley interested right up to this:
> > >
> > > "But grammatical metaphors, such as the nominalizations that Newton
> > > and Galileo created to talk about gravity as an entity and to create
> > > sentences that look like mathematical equations, are highly productive,
> > > which is why they still form the basis of scientific writing and
> thinking
> > > today."
> > >
> > > Can you slow down for a moment and give some examples? I lose you when
> > you
> > > say "created to talk about gravity as an entity".
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > Helena
> > >
> > >
> > > Helena Worthen
> > > helenaworthen@gmail.com
> > >
> > > On Dec 18, 2014, at 1:59 PM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > >
> > > > As Helena points out, prepositions are from the "grammatical" end of
> > what
> > > > Henry has called the "lexicon-grammar" continuum (and what Halliday
> > calls
> > > > "wording" or "lexicogrammar"). What that means is that they have
> three
> > > > properties that words from the more "lexical" end do not have:
> > > >
> > > > a) They are a closed class. You can't invent new ones. (You can,
> > > actually,
> > > > but you can't teach people to use it, whereas if you invent a new
> name
> > > or a
> > > > new noun like "lexicogrammar", you can).
> > > >
> > > > b) They are systemic. They are not liimited to specific semantic
> field
> > > (the
> > > > way that "lexicogrammar" is limited to a particular area of
> > linguistics)
> > > > but can be used wherever nouns and adverbial phrases are used.
> > > >
> > > > c) They are proportional. They always have more or less the same
> > effect,
> > > > which is why when you say "there's a flaw in your argument" the "in"
> > has
> > > > more or less the same feeling to it as the "in" in "there's a fly in
> > your
> > > > tea". In contrast, the word "lexicogrammar" MIGHT, in Henry's hands,
> > > refer
> > > > to a book or even a footnote.
> > > >
> > > > Now, the interesting thing for me is that these properties pretty
> much
> > > > define the difference between learning and development, at least as I
> > > > understand it from Koffka. Learning is adding on functions
> > > > indefinitely while development works by reorganizing the closed set
> of
> > > > functions you already have into new systems. Learning is skill
> specific
> > > > and local, while development is quite global in its implications.
> > > Learning
> > > > is non-proportional and doesn't generalize to create new systems,
> while
> > > > development does. And this is why we learn vocabulary (and forget it
> > just
> > > > as readily) but grammar seems to grow on you and never goes away.
> > > >
> > > > For Halliday, lexical metaphors (e.g. "that little tent of blue that
> > > people
> > > > call the sky") are simply metaphors from the non-productive end of
> the
> > > > lexicogrammatical continuum, which is why they are crisp, concrete,
> and
> > > > vivid. But grammatical metaphors, such as the nominalizations that
> > Newton
> > > > and Galileo created to talk about gravity as an entity and to create
> > > > sentences that look like mathematical equations, are highly
> productive,
> > > > which is why they still form the basis of scientific writing and
> > thinking
> > > > today.  For Halliday, the "break" into grammatical metaphor is the
> > third
> > > > great moment in child development (after the break into mother tongue
> > and
> > > > the break into disciplinary language in school work).
> > > >
> > > > Prepositions, of course, encode geometrical notions: "at" implies
> zero
> > > > dimensions ('at a point'), "on' implies one or two ("on a line', 'on
> a
> > > > plane') and "in" impies three ('in a space'). But because they are
> > > > grammatical, and therefore productive, we also use them with time:
> 'at
> > a
> > > > point in time', 'on a morning/afternoon', 'in 2015'. Compare: "at
> > > > Christmas' (a specific time), "on Christmas' (the very day), and "in
> > > > Christmas' (season).
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > > >
> > > > On 19 December 2014 at 04:32, Helena Worthen <
> helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes to prepositions as metaphors. They "carry across" spatial
> > > >> relationships from the concrete material world into the conceptual
> > > >> imaginary world. There are not many of them (50 common ones, and
> > > between 70
> > > >> and 150 total, including multi-word prepositions like "as far as" --
> > > this
> > > >> is according to
> https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/prepositions.htm
> > ).
> > > >> We don't make up new ones. They don't have synonyms. Apparently, in
> > > >> English, they evolved from and did the job done by inflections in
> > parent
> > > >> languages, examples being cases and tenses.
> > > >>
> > > >> But there is real difference in meaning between an inflection like
> the
> > > >> dative or accusative cases in Latin and the spatial relationships
> > > suggested
> > > >> by contemporary prepositions.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'll bet someone else on this list knows a lot more about this.
> > > >>
> > > >> Helena Worthen
> > > >> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> > > >>
> > > >> On Dec 18, 2014, at 9:58 AM, HENRY SHONERD wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I’m with Andy on prepositions as metaphors. They are clearly
> > embodied,
> > > >> proprioceptive, symbolic, meaningful. A standard intro to
> linguistics
> > > (For
> > > >> example, Yule, The Study of Language) semantics is focused on
> > “lexicon”:
> > > >> nouns, verbs, adjectives, absolutely no mention of prepositions,
> being
> > > part
> > > >> of grammar, as it is traditionally construed. Langacker and Halliday
> > > see no
> > > >> clear demarcation between lexicon and grammar, hence,
> lexico-grammar.
> > > (Lo
> > > >> and behold, my spell check wanted me to write lexicon-grammar,
> adding
> > > the
> > > >> “n”. The traditions holds! Keep them separate!) Word coinings are
> > great
> > > >> data for imagination and creativity. Did Vygotsky do much of that?
> In
> > > >> translation from Russian is word coining ever practiced?
> > > >>> Henry
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Dec 18, 2014, at 2:54 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> the kind of metaphor which I find most interesting is the
> > metaphorical
> > > >> use of prepositions like:
> > > >>>> - "there is some value IN your argument"
> > > >>>> - "I'd like to go OVER that again"
> > > >>>> - "I'd don't see what is BEHIND that line of thinking"
> > > >>>> - "Let's go THROUGH that again"
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> and so on.
> > > >>>> Andy
> > > >>>>
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>> *Andy Blunden*
> > > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> larry smolucha wrote:
> > > >>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Forgive me for replying to myself -
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> In regard to combinatory imagination and the synergistic
> > > possibilities:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> In the Genetic Roots of Thought and Speech (1929) published in
> > > Thought
> > > >>>>> and Speech (1934) [or Thought and Language as translated into
> > English
> > > >> 1962]
> > > >>>>> Vygotsky discussed how word meaning is more than the 'additive'
> > value
> > > >> of the
> > > >>>>> two components (the sensory-motor thought and the speech
> > > vocalization).
> > > >>>>> He used the analogy of H2O in which two chemical elements that
> are
> > > >> flammable
> > > >>>>> gases combine to produce water, which is neither flammable nor a
> > gas.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> [Just a note for Newcomers - in the early 20th century European
> > > >> Developmental
> > > >>>>> Psychologists used the word 'genetic' to mean 'developmental'
> hence
> > > the
> > > >>>>> Developmental Roots of Thought and Speech or in the case of
> > Piaget's
> > > >> Genetic
> > > >>>>> Epistemology read as Developmental Epistemology.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> And to those XMCARs who mentioned earlier synthesis and synthesis
> > > >> based on
> > > >>>>> metaphoric thinking - definitely - we even see this in Vygotsky's
> > > >> example of H2O.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > >>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 16:18:07 -0600
> > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Combinatory or recombinative imagination could be synergistic
> > > >>>>>> and produce something new that is more than the sum of the
> parts.
> > > >>>>>> It does not have to mean that "imagination is nothing more than
> > the
> > > >>>>>> recombining of concrete experiences, nothing really new can ever
> > be
> > > >> imagined"
> > > >>>>>> (David Kellogg's most recent email.)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> A couple things to consider:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> (1) Sensory perception involves some element of imagination as
> the
> > > >> brain has
> > > >>>>>> to organize incoming data into a pattern (even at the simplest
> > level
> > > >> of the Gestalt
> > > >>>>>> Law of Closure or Figure/Ground Images).
> > > >>>>>> (2) Memories themselves are reconstructed and not just
> > photographic.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> (3) The goal of reproductive imagination (memory) is to try to
> > > >> accurately reproduce
> > > >>>>>> the sensory-motor experience of some external event. Whereas,
> the
> > > >> goal of combinatory
> > > >>>>>> imagination is to create something new out of memories, dreams,
> > > >> musings, and even
> > > >>>>>> sensory motor activity involving the actual manipulation of
> > objects
> > > >> and symbols.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> (4) I think it would be useful to think of the different ways
> that
> > > >> things and concepts can be
> > > >>>>>> combines. For example, I could just combine salt and sugar and
> > > flour.
> > > >>>>>>                                         I can add water and it
> > > >> dissolves a bit
> > > >>>>>>                                         But adding heat changes
> > the
> > > >> combination into a pancake.
> > > >>>>>>                      [Is this synergistic?]
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>            Sorry I have to go now - I am thinking of more
> examples
> > > >> to put the discussion
> > > >>>>>>            in the metaphysical realm.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:05:49 +0900
> > > >>>>>>> From: dkellogg60@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Let me--while keeping within the two screen limit--make the
> case
> > > for
> > > >>>>>>> Vygotsky's obsession with discrediting associationism. I think
> > it's
> > > >> not
> > > >>>>>>> just about mediation; as Michael points out, there are
> > > >> associationists who
> > > >>>>>>> are willing to accept that a kind of intermediary
> associationism
> > > >> exists and
> > > >>>>>>> some mediationists who are willing to accept that as mediation.
> > > >> Vygotsky
> > > >>>>>>> has far more in mind. How do we, without invoking religion,
> > explain
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>> uniqueness of our species?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Is it just the natural egocentrism that every species feels for
> > its
> > > >> own
> > > >>>>>>> kind? From an associationist point of view, and from a
> Piagetian
> > > >>>>>>> perspective--and even from a strict Darwinian one--true
> maturity
> > > as a
> > > >>>>>>> species comes with acknowledging that there is nothing more to
> it
> > > >> than
> > > >>>>>>> that: we are simply a singularly maladaptive variety of
> primate,
> > > and
> > > >> our
> > > >>>>>>> solemn temples and clouded towers are but stones piled upon
> rocks
> > > in
> > > >> order
> > > >>>>>>> to hide this. The value of our cultures have to be judged the
> > same
> > > >> way as
> > > >>>>>>> any other adaptation: in terms of survival value.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Making the case for the higher psychological functions and for
> > > >> language is
> > > >>>>>>> not simply a matter of making a NON-religious case human
> > > >> exceptionalism.
> > > >>>>>>> It's also, in a strange way, a way of making the case for the
> > > >> vanguard role
> > > >>>>>>> of the lower classes in human progress. For other species,
> > > prolonging
> > > >>>>>>> childhood is giving hostages to fortune,and looking after the
> > sick
> > > >> and the
> > > >>>>>>> elderly is tantamount to suicide. But because artificial organs
> > > >> (tools) and
> > > >>>>>>> even artificial intelligences (signs) are so important for our
> > > >> species, it
> > > >>>>>>> is in the societies and the sectors of society where these
> > > >> "circuitous,
> > > >>>>>>> compensatory means of development" are most advanced that lead
> > our
> > > >>>>>>> development as a species. The wretched of the earth always been
> > > >> short on
> > > >>>>>>> rocks and stones to pile up and on the wherewithal for material
> > > >> culture
> > > >>>>>>> generally. But language and ideology is quite another matter:
> > > >> verily, here
> > > >>>>>>> the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I think the idea of imagination is a distal form of attention
> is
> > > >> simply the
> > > >>>>>>> logical result of Ribot's model of imagination: he says there
> are
> > > >> only two
> > > >>>>>>> kinds of imagination: reproductive, and recombinative. So
> > > >> imagination is
> > > >>>>>>> nothing more than the recombination of concrete experiences,
> and
> > > >> nothing
> > > >>>>>>> really new can ever be imagined. But as Vygotsky says, when you
> > > hear
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>> name of a place, you don't have to have actually been there to
> be
> > > >> able to
> > > >>>>>>> imagine it. So there must be some artificial memory at work in
> > word
> > > >> meaning.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> You probably know the hoary old tale about Archimedes, who was
> > > given
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>>> crown of gold and who discovered that the gold had been mixed
> > with
> > > >> silver
> > > >>>>>>> by measuring the displacement of an equivalent quantity of
> gold.
> > > >> Well, we
> > > >>>>>>> now know that this method doesn't actually work: it's not
> > possible
> > > to
> > > >>>>>>> measure the differences in water displacement that precisely.
> The
> > > >> method
> > > >>>>>>> that Archimedes actually used was much closer to the "principal
> > of
> > > >>>>>>> buoyancy" which Vygotsky always talks about.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> And how do we know this? Because of the Archimedes palimpsest,
> a
> > > >> velum on
> > > >>>>>>> which seven texts were written at right angles to each other.
> > > Because
> > > >>>>>>> parchment was so expensive, the velum was scraped and written
> > over
> > > >> every
> > > >>>>>>> century or so, but because the skin it was made of was soft,
> the
> > > >> pressure
> > > >>>>>>> of the writing preserved the older texts below the new ones
> when
> > > the
> > > >> old
> > > >>>>>>> text was scraped off. And one of the lower texts is the only
> > known
> > > >> Greek
> > > >>>>>>> copy of Archimedes' "On Floating Bodies".
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Neither the relationship of these texts to meaning nor their
> > > >> relationship
> > > >>>>>>> to each other is a matter of association (and in fact they are
> > > >> related to
> > > >>>>>>> each other by a kind of failed dissociation). But it's quite
> > > similar
> > > >> to the
> > > >>>>>>> way that word meanings are reused and develop anew.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> (Did I do it? Is this two screens?)
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On 16 December 2014 at 14:24, HENRY SHONERD <
> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I meant to ask: What does it mean that Ribot, as an
> > > associationist,
> > > >> “sees
> > > >>>>>>>> imagination as a rather distal form of attention”?
> > > >>>>>>>> Henry
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2014, at 5:19 PM, David Kellogg <
> > dkellogg60@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On the one hand, Ribot is really responsible for the division
> > > >> between
> > > >>>>>>>>> higher and lower psychological functions. On the other,
> because
> > > >> Ribot is
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> an
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> associationist, he sees imagination as a rather distal form
> of
> > > >> attention.
> > > >>>>>>>>> And, as Mike says, he does associate it with the transition
> > from
> > > >> forest
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> farm, so in that sense he is responsible for the division
> > between
> > > >> the two
> > > >>>>>>>>> great periods of semio-history: the literal and
> commonsensical
> > > >> world of
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> forest where attention has to be harnessed to fairly prosaic
> > uses
> > > >> in life
> > > >>>>>>>>> and death struggles for existence, and the much more
> > > "imaginative"
> > > >> (that
> > > >>>>>>>>> is, image based) forms of attention we find in the world of
> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> farm,where
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> written accounts (e.g. calendars) are kept, where long winter
> > > >> months are
> > > >>>>>>>>> wiled away with fables, and we are much more likely to
> > encounter
> > > >> talking
> > > >>>>>>>>> animals (but much more rarely talking plants!). Here
> attention
> > > has
> > > >> to be
> > > >>>>>>>>> more voluntary.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Vygotsky rejects all this, of course. I think he has a very
> > clear
> > > >>>>>>>>> understanding of the kind of Rousseauvian romanticism that
> > > >> underpins
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Ribot
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> here, but above all he rejects associationism. Vygotsky
> points
> > > out
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>>>> LOGICAL flaw in Ribot's argument: if these productive
> practices
> > > >> really
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> the true source of volitional attention and thus of
> > imagination,
> > > >> there
> > > >>>>>>>>> isn't any reason to see a qualitative difference between
> human
> > > and
> > > >> animal
> > > >>>>>>>>> imagination, because of course animals are perfectly capable
> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> volitional
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> attention (and in some ways are better at it than humans).
> > > Without
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> theory
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> of the difference language makes, there isn't any basis for
> > > Ribot's
> > > >>>>>>>>> distinction between higher and lower psychological functions
> at
> > > >> all.
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > >>>>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On 16 December 2014 at 01:02, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Lots of interesting suggestions of new kinds of imagination,
> > > >> thanks to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> all
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> for the food for thought.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Ribot, not Robot, Henry. He was apparently very influential
> > > >> around the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> time
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> emprical psychology got going in the late 19th century. I
> had
> > > >> seen work
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> on
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> memory before, but not imagination.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Robert-  Does generative = productive and reflective equal
> > > >> reproductive?
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Overall I am pondering how to link up empirical studies of
> > > >> development
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> imagination to these various categories --- The cost of
> being
> > a
> > > >> relative
> > > >>>>>>>>>> newcomer to the topic.
> > > >>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:19 PM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > >> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Forgive me coming late to this! Robot is now on my bucket
> > list.
> > > >> This
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> business of movement recycles our cross-modal musings from
> > some
> > > >> weeks
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> our metaphorizing. (I just got an auto spell correct that
> > > >> segmented the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> last two words of the previous sentence as “met
> aphorizing”.
> > > >> Puns,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> according to my Wikipedia is a kind of metaphor. :)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Henry
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2014, at 10:57 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Andy- It was the Russians who pointed me toward Kant and
> > they
> > > >> are
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> doing
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> contemporary work in which they claim Vygotsky and his
> > > >> followers as an
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration. Some think that LSV was influenced by Hegel,
> so
> > > >> its of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> course
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to see those additional categories emerge.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> 19th Century psychological vocabulary, especially in
> > > >> translation,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> seems
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> awfully slippery territory to me. The word, "recollection"
> > in
> > > >> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> passage,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for example, is not a currently used term in counter
> > > >> distinction to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "memory."
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Normal problems. There are serious problems in
> contemporary
> > > >> discourse
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> across languages as our explorations with out Russian
> > > >> colleagues have
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> illustrated.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> That said, I feel as if I am learning something from
> > theorists
> > > >> who
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> influenced Vygotsky and early psychology -- when it was
> > still
> > > >> possible
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> include culture in it.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ribot has a book called "Creative Imagination" which,
> > > >> interestingly
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> links
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imagination to both movement and the meaning of a
> > "voluntary"
> > > >> act.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Parts
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> it are offputting, primitives thinking like children stuff
> > > that
> > > >> was
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> also
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "in the air" for example. But at present the concepts of
> > > >> creativity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imagination are thoroughly entangled, so its curious to
> see
> > > >> that the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> two
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> concepts are linked.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Just cause its old doesn't mean its useless, he found
> > himself
> > > >> writing.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Its difficult, of course, to know the extent to which
> pretty
> > > old
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> approaches
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to a pesum
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Andy Blunden <
> > > >> ablunden@mira.net>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know we want to keep this relatively contemporary, but
> it
> > > >> may be
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> worth
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> noting that Hegel's Psychology also gave a prominent
> place
> > to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Imagination
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the section on Representation, mediating between
> > > >> Recollection and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Memory. He structured Imagination as (1) Reproductive
> > > >> Imagination,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> (2)
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Associative Imagination (3) Productive Imagination, which
> > he
> > > >> says
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> leads
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Sign, which he describes as Productive Memory. In
> other
> > > >> words,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> transition from immediate sensation to Intellect is
> > > >> accomplished
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> through
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> these three grades of Imagination.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are some questions I have after reading Strawson
> and
> > > >> Williams.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kant et al (including Russian developmentalists whose
> > work i
> > > >> am
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> trying
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mine for empirical
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies and already-accumulated results) speak of
> > > >> productive
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination. The Russians write that productive
> > imagination
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> develops.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> At first I thought that the use of productive implies
> that
> > > >> there
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> must
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> be a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kind of ​imagination called UNproductive imagination.
> But
> > I
> > > >> learned
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead the idea of RE-productive imagination appears
> and
> > is
> > > >> linked
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> memory.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, it seems that imagination is an ineluctable part of
> > > >> anticipation
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> memory.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Imagine that!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 12:16 PM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > >> hshonerd@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>                  wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Strawson provides a long view historically on
> imagination
> > > >> (starting
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> with
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hume and Kant), Williams a more contemporaneous look,
> and
> > > >> provides
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for imagination not afforded by the socio-cultural as
> > > fixed.
> > > >> This,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coupled
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Pelaprat and Cole on Gap/Imagination, gives me a
> > > ground
> > > >> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> take
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> part
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the thread on imagination. Of course, I start with
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> preconceptions:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vera
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on creative collaboration and the cognitive grammarian
> > > >> Langacker on
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbolic assemblies in discourse and cognitive domains,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> particularly
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> temporal. Everyday discourse, it seems to me, is full
> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> imagination
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creativity. I am terribly interested in two aspects of
> > > >> temporality:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence and rhythm (including tempo and rhythmic
> > > >> structure), which
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must both figure in imagination and creativity, for
> both
> > > >> individual
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distributed construals of cognition and feeling.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henry
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 13, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Larry Purss <
> > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henry, Mike, and others interested in this topic.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too see the affinities with notions of the third
> > *space*
> > > >> and the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analogy
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to *gap-filling*
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am on holiday so limited access to internet.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, I wanted to mention Raymond Williams and his
> > > >> notion of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "structures
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of feeling" that David K references. This notion is
> > > >> explored under
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of historical *styles* that exist as a *set* of
> > > >> modalities
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hang
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together.  This notion suggests there is a form of
> > knowing
> > > >> that is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forming
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but has not yet formed [but can be "felt"
> [perceived??]
> > if
> > > >> we
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> think
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginatively.  Raymond explores the imaginal as
> *style*
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Larry
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:38 PM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike and Larry,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I promise to read your profer, but just want to say
> how
> > > >> jazzed up
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> am
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about this thread. My mind has been going wild, the
> mind
> > > as
> > > >> Larry
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> construes
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. I ended up just now with a triad, actually various
> > > >> triads,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> finally
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found my old friend Serpinski. Part now of my
> notebooks
> > > of
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> mind, as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vera would construe it. I’ll be back! Gap adentro,
> > luega
> > > >> pa’
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> fuera.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fractally yours,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henry
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 5:09 PM, mike cole <
> > mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those interested in the imagination thread,
> > attached
> > > >> are two
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> articles
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by philosophers who have worried about the issue.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My current interest stems from the work of CHAT
> > > theorists
> > > >> like
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zaporozhets
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and his students who studied the development of
> > > >> imagination in a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manner
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, it turns out, goes back to Kant's notion of
> > > >> productive
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination. I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am not advocating going back to Kant, and have no
> > > >> intention of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> doing
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But these ideas seem worth pursuing as explicated in
> the
> > > >> attached
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> texts.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Through reading the Russians and then these
> > philosophers,
> > > I
> > > >> came
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> upon
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea that perception and imagination are very closely
> > > >> linked at
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> several
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels of analysis. This is what, in our naivete,
> > > >> Ettienne and I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> argued
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our paper on imagination sent around earlier as a
> > means
> > > of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> access
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work of the blind-deaf psychologist, Alexander
> Suvorov.
> > > >> Moreover,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> such
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> views emphasize the future orientation of the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> perception/imagination
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process. I believe that these views have direct
> > > relevance
> > > >> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Kris's
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paper
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be found on the KrisRRQ thread, and also speak to
> > > >> concerns
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> about
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> role of different forms of symbolic play in
> > development.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here are the papers on the imagination thread.
> > > Perhaps
> > > >> they
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> will
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful for those interested.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a
> natural
> > > >> science
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> with an
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Imagination and Perception by P.F. Strawson.pdf>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural
> > science
> > > >> with an
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural
> science
> > > >> with an
> > > >>>>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >
>


-- 

*Robert Lake  Ed.D.*Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460