From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Aug 1 12:07:22 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 19:07:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?q?_Re=3A__Re=3A_NYTimes=2Ecom=3A_Why_Do_Americans_Stink_?= =?utf-8?q?at_Math=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il>, Message-ID: <53db07d3.03ff440a.6a58.2814@mx.google.com> Fascinating exploration of how to transform schooling. A central factor that seems important to highlight is the sense of trust and shared explorations among teachers as an aspect of changing practices. I have been successful in all the various elementary schools I have worked in to encourage the *school based team* [the term used for the teachers who review students at risk] to have a time set aside for the team to discuss their own process. Usually this means the teachers giving a half hour of their own time and the administration allowing 30 minutes [for an hour a week] AS Ed pragmatically points out there are ways to open up spaces in the most formal and systematic spaces. The Greek concept of *philia* [friendship] may seem *traditional* and quaint, but I have experienced more openness where philia is nurtured. The focus on individual *expertness* often leaves the student avoiding math because they don?t get the answer. Teachers can experience the same need for *concealment* if teaching assumes individual *expertness* The shift to developing a shared *expertness* supported through *philia* is something that can be put into practice as a *disposition* [style] and it is possible to create pockets of shared spaces in many school settings Larry Sent from Windows Mail From: Helen Grimmett Sent: ?Thursday?, ?July? ?31?, ?2014 ?7?:?56? ?PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity, sfard@netvision.net.il Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the citation for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in her selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested in subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of these). I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling before and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether it would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the subject. In her early secondary school years when science was compulsory she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' science would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. Her stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that she doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) science homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give her more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, yet I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for avenues of study in the future. Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more worried about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In all honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close or with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into Year 11 and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted enough to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is reimagined in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of students. My thanks again, Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Room G64F, Building 902 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 *New Book: * The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical Approach Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are we > teaching mathematics?" > > > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > anna > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > participate properly. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf > Of > Glassman, Michael > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of this. > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my experience > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something you > do > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the wall > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is still > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly for > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But there is > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of things > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education in > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in the > 20s > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its pretty > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge in > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > classroom transferable anyway? > > > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once in > a > while. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > behalf > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > Culture, > Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > Mike > > > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > like > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) had > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). Parents > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years ago, > I > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a policy > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, she > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't understand > why > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids in > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and said > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of my > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM (smile). > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they are, > in > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > asking > why is useful. > > > > Ed > > > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school graduates" > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > > > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > understandable terms. > > > > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to be > wrong! > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > >> Katherine > > >> > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). > > >> > > >> Ed > > >> > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > >> > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > > >>> same > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > >>> > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > hours. > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are developed. > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > > >>> ways > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > >> prior experiences. > > >>> > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > >>> are > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm still > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work with > the others. > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > >>> > > >>> Katie > > >>> > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal > > >>> University of Georgia > > >>> > > >>> ________________________________________ > > >>> From: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > >>> > > >>> Greg > > >>> > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may be > > >>> a > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances I > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) > > >>> > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > > >> i(and I meant both!) > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > >>> (and > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > >>> includes > > >> (mis)understandings!!) > > >>> > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > >>> school > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > >> (teachers and pre-service > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I have > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > >>> > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary teachers > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest 'academic' > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > >>> > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what is > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to know > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, they > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into them > no matter the situation. > > >>> > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > >>> > > >>> Ed > > >>> > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Ed, > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > >>>> > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the need > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that great > > >>>> things > > >> can > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > > >> effort to > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > > >> dent). > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > >> approach a > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > >> constraints of > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > > >>>> out > > >> what > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > >>>> > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > > >>>> ideological context > > >> of > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > >>>> same good ideas > > >> keep > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > >> appeared]. > > >>>> > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > schooling > context. > > >>>> > > >>>> -greg > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Comments below > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > >>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > >>>>>> situation > > >> of > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > > >> Japanese > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 annual > > >> hours > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact time > > >>>>>> in > > >> the > > >>>>>> U.S. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > >>>>>> childhood > > >>>>> greatly > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from adolescents > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > > >>>>>> the cruel > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > > >> school > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is more > > >>>>>> of > > >> an > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > >>>>>> enabling the > > >>>>> kind > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > > >>>>>> if > > >> there > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > >>>>>> teachers > > >> would > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > U.S. > > >> not > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > >>>>>> exceptions, > > >> it > > >>>>> is > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > valued particularly highly. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > > >>>>> That > > >> doesn't > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > powers-that-be. > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > > >>>>> mentoring > > >> system > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > >>>>> anecdotal) > > >> is > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > > >> happening > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > > >> community > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > >>>>> published > > >> by > > >>>>> teachers. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > teachers' > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in which > > >> those > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > >>>>>> more difficult still. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > teachers are viewed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > >> schooling in > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > > >>>>> also be a > > >> good > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > >>>>> seen > > >> very > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > > >> colleague > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > > >>>>> getting > > >> steadily > > >>>>> worse. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > >>>>>> -greg > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Ed > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >> > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > >> g.html?_r=0 > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to the > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > > >>>>>>>> in the > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > >>>>>>> version > > >> of > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > >>>>>>> beginning > > >> in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > >>>>>>> similar as > > >> a > > >>>>> K-12 > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > >>>>>>> little > > >> 'new' > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > > >>>>>>> there > > >>>>> is a > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > > >>>>>>> doing > > >> (I > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between meetings > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > >>>>>>> kids making > > >>>>> sense). > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > > >>>>>>>> being > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high stakes > > >> testing > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > >>>>>>> Japan); > > >>>>> there > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > > >>>>> teachers to > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > >>>>>>> college > > >>>>> courses; > > >>>>>>> and more. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > > >>>>>>> if > > >>>>> somewhat > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > >>>>>>>> has > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > > >>>>>>> sync > > >>>>> with > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > >>>>>>> core > > >> (although > > >>>>> one > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > >>>>>>> rather > > >>>>> than > > >>>>>>> Japan). > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > >>>>>>>> teacher > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > > >>>>> Standards > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > > >>>>>>> (from > > >> the > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > > >>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > > >>>>>>>> and > > >> very > > >>>>>>> complex problem. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Ed > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > > >>>>>>>>> focus > > >> on > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > >> learning > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > > >>>>>>> change > > >>>>> (from > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > >> consideration > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > >>>>>>> culture > > >> or > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus on > > >>>>>>> what works > > >> locally > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > >>>>>>> actually > > >> works in > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it > > >>>>> might > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > >> teaching" > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>>> their schools. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same old > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > >>>>> method > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > > >>>>>>> be a > > >> push > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > >>>>>>> (Except > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > > >>>>>>> they > > >>>>> will > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes tests > > >> without > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > > >>>>>>> as I > > >>>>> know, > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a practicing > > >>>>> teacher. > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Katie > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> From: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > >>>>> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink > > >>>>>>>>> at > > >>>>> Math? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > >>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> [...] > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > > >>>>>>>>>> idea > > >>>>> about > > >>>>>>> how > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > > >>>>> (un)learnt > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > > >> creative > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>>>>> Huw > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>>>> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > From sfard@netvision.net.il Fri Aug 1 00:03:24 2014 From: sfard@netvision.net.il (anna sfard) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 10:03:24 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <"CAGzL+FLstZDCCErpa8Zq v7C-EX26mBRU5NRA"@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Hi Helen, My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew then that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try to dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. And see what happened: design does require some technical/ scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied to the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some "real" purpose. This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. There is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may lose. I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will earn a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a way among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real need for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, lack of self-confidence, etc, etc. And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written as guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of Georgia, Athens: Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. The Mathematics Educator, 22(1), 3-16. Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are the proofs of the chapter): Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici (Ed.), The best writings on mathematics (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton University ?Press anna From: Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the citation for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in her selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested in subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of these). I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling before and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether it would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the subject. In her early secondary school years when science was compulsory she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' science would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. Her stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that she doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) science homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give her more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, yet I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for avenues of study in the future. Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more worried about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In all honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close or with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into Year 11 and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted enough to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is reimagined in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of students. My thanks again, Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Room G64F, Building 902 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 New Book: The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical Approach Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers Image removed by sender. On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" Already done, Michael - see the attached. anna PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to participate properly. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard =netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of this. We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my experience really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something you do to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the wall again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is still an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly for the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But there is nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of things to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education in concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in the 20s and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its pretty amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge in the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the classroom transferable anyway? Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once in a while. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Mike As I said I am not a blissful optimist. Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something like this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) had been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). Parents can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years ago, I was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a policy background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, she could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't understand why you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids in the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and said sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of my friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM (smile). Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they are, in a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although asking why is useful. Ed On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school graduates" > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in understandable terms. > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to be wrong! > mike > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >> Katherine >> >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I don't yet know the 'right' answer. >> However, I would like to know (smile). >> >> Ed >> >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < wester@uga.edu> wrote: >> >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the >>> same >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>> >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 hours. >>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are developed. >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >>> ways >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >> prior experiences. >>> >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>> are >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm still >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work with the others. >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>> >>> Katie >>> >>> Katie Wester-Neal >>> University of Georgia >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> < xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may be >>> a >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances I >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >> teachers are welcome to push back) >>> >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement >> i(and I meant both!) >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>> (and >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>> includes >> (mis)understandings!!) >>> >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>> school >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >> (teachers and pre-service >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I have >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>> >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary teachers >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest 'academic' >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>> >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what is >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to know >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, they >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into them no matter the situation. >>> >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>>> Ed, >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>> >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the need >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that great >>>> things >> can >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >> effort to >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a >> dent). >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >> approach a >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >> constraints of >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >>>> out >> what >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>> >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and >>>> ideological context >> of >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>> same good ideas >> keep >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >> appeared]. >>>> >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal schooling context. >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Comments below >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>>> situation >> of >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the >> Japanese >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 annual >> hours >>>>> of >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact time >>>>>> in >> the >>>>>> U.S. >>>>> >>>>> Yes >>>>> >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>>> childhood >>>>> greatly >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from adolescents >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from >>>>>> the cruel >>>>> and >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary >> school >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>> >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is more >>>>>> of >> an >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>>> enabling the >>>>> kind >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >>>>>> if >> there >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>>> teachers >> would >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the U.S. >> not >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>>> exceptions, >> it >>>>> is >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not valued particularly highly. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). >>>>> That >> doesn't >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the powers-that-be. >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >>>>> mentoring >> system >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>> anecdotal) >> is >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were >> happening >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >> community >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>> published >> by >>>>> teachers. >>>>> >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change teachers' >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in which >> those >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how teachers are viewed. >>>>> >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >> schooling in >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might >>>>> also be a >> good >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>> seen >> very >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >> colleague >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >>>>> getting >> steadily >>>>> worse. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >> g.html?_r=0 >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to the >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>>>> version >> of >>>>> the >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>>>> beginning >> in >>>>> the >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>>>> similar as >> a >>>>> K-12 >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>>>> little >> 'new' >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, >>>>>>> there >>>>> is a >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >>>>>>> doing >> (I >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between meetings >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>>>> kids making >>>>> sense). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high stakes >> testing >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>>>> Japan); >>>>> there >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; >>>>> teachers to >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>>>> college >>>>> courses; >>>>>>> and more. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >>>>>>> if >>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in >>>>>>> sync >>>>> with >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>>>> core >> (although >>>>> one >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>>>> rather >>>>> than >>>>>>> Japan). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core >>>>> Standards >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >>>>>>> (from >> the >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >>>>>>>> and >> very >>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >>>>>>>>> focus >> on >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >> learning >>>>> to >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >>>>>>> change >>>>> (from >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >> consideration >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>>>> culture >> or >>>>> the >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus on >>>>>>> what works >> locally >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>>>> actually >> works in >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>> might >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >> teaching" >>>>> in >>>>>>> their schools. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same old >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>> method >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >>>>>>> be a >> push >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>>>> (Except >>>>> that >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, >>>>>>> they >>>>> will >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes tests >> without >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far >>>>>>> as I >>>>> know, >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a practicing >>>>> teacher. >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink >>>>>>>>> at >>>>> Math? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>> about >>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply >>>>> (un)learnt >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >> creative >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140801/2bb98d29/attachment.jpe From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Fri Aug 1 01:30:53 2014 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 18:30:53 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling and they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the idea at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere mortals. I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt to play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but how interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. Cheers, Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Room G64F, Building 902 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 *New Book: * The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical Approach Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > Hi Helen, > > > > My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew then > that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try to > dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. And > see what happened: design does require some technical/ > scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied to > the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > "real" purpose. > > > > This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. There > is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may lose. > I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will earn > a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a way > among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real need > for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I > think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, lack > of self-confidence, etc, etc. > > > > And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written as > guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > Georgia, Athens: > > > > Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. *The > Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > > > > Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are the > proofs of the chapter): > > > > Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici (Ed.), *The > best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton > University ?Press > > > > anna > > > > > > *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the citation > for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high > achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in her > selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested in > subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of these). > > > > I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling before > and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether it > would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > subject. In her early secondary school years when science was compulsory > she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' science > would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. Her > stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that she > doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) science > homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to > another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give her > more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, yet > I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > avenues of study in the future. > > > > Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more worried > about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In all > honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she > says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close or > with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into Year 11 > and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very > transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted enough > to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > > > > It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is reimagined > in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of students. > > > > My thanks again, > > Helen > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > Faculty of Education, > > Room G64F, Building 902 > Monash University, Berwick campus > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > *New Book: * > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > Approach > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > > > On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are we > teaching mathematics?" > > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > anna > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > participate properly. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf > Of > Glassman, Michael > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of this. > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my experience > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something you > do > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the wall > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is still > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly for > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But there is > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of things > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education in > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in the > 20s > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its pretty > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge in > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > classroom transferable anyway? > > > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once in > a > while. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > behalf > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > Culture, > > Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > Mike > > > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > like > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) had > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). Parents > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years ago, > I > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a policy > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, she > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't understand > why > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids in > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and said > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of my > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM (smile). > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they are, > in > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > asking > why is useful. > > > > Ed > > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school graduates" > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > > > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > understandable terms. > > > > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to be > wrong! > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > >> Katherine > > >> > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). > > >> > > >> Ed > > >> > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > > wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > >> > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > > >>> same > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > >>> > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > hours. > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are developed. > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > > >>> ways > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > >> prior experiences. > > >>> > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > >>> are > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm still > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work with > the others. > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > >>> > > >>> Katie > > >>> > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal > > >>> University of Georgia > > >>> > > >>> ________________________________________ > > >>> From: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>> < > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > >>> > > >>> Greg > > >>> > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may be > > >>> a > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances I > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) > > >>> > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > > >> i(and I meant both!) > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > >>> (and > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > >>> includes > > >> (mis)understandings!!) > > >>> > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > >>> school > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > >> (teachers and pre-service > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I have > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > >>> > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary teachers > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest 'academic' > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > >>> > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what is > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to know > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, they > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into them > no matter the situation. > > >>> > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > >>> > > >>> Ed > > >>> > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Ed, > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > >>>> > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the need > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that great > > >>>> things > > >> can > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > > >> effort to > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > > >> dent). > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > >> approach a > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > >> constraints of > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > > >>>> out > > >> what > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > >>>> > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > > >>>> ideological context > > >> of > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > >>>> same good ideas > > >> keep > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > >> appeared]. > > >>>> > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > schooling > context. > > >>>> > > >>>> -greg > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Comments below > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > >>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > >>>>>> situation > > >> of > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > > >> Japanese > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 annual > > >> hours > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact time > > >>>>>> in > > >> the > > >>>>>> U.S. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > >>>>>> childhood > > >>>>> greatly > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from adolescents > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > > >>>>>> the cruel > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > > >> school > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is more > > >>>>>> of > > >> an > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > >>>>>> enabling the > > >>>>> kind > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > > >>>>>> if > > >> there > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > >>>>>> teachers > > >> would > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > U.S. > > >> not > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > >>>>>> exceptions, > > >> it > > >>>>> is > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > valued particularly highly. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > > >>>>> That > > >> doesn't > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > powers-that-be. > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > > >>>>> mentoring > > >> system > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > >>>>> anecdotal) > > >> is > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > > >> happening > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > > >> community > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > >>>>> published > > >> by > > >>>>> teachers. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > teachers' > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in which > > >> those > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > >>>>>> more difficult still. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > teachers are viewed. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > >> schooling in > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > > >>>>> also be a > > >> good > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > >>>>> seen > > >> very > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > > >> colleague > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > > >>>>> getting > > >> steadily > > >>>>> worse. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > >>>>>> -greg > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Ed > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >> > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > >> g.html?_r=0 > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to the > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > > >>>>>>>> in the > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > >>>>>>> version > > >> of > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > >>>>>>> beginning > > >> in > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > >>>>>>> similar as > > >> a > > >>>>> K-12 > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > >>>>>>> little > > >> 'new' > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > > >>>>>>> there > > >>>>> is a > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > > >>>>>>> doing > > >> (I > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between meetings > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > >>>>>>> kids making > > >>>>> sense). > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > > >>>>>>>> being > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high stakes > > >> testing > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > >>>>>>> Japan); > > >>>>> there > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > > >>>>> teachers to > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > >>>>>>> college > > >>>>> courses; > > >>>>>>> and more. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > > >>>>>>> if > > >>>>> somewhat > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > >>>>>>>> has > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > > >>>>>>> sync > > >>>>> with > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > >>>>>>> core > > >> (although > > >>>>> one > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > >>>>>>> rather > > >>>>> than > > >>>>>>> Japan). > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > >>>>>>>> teacher > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > > >>>>> Standards > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > > >>>>>>> (from > > >> the > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > > >>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > > >>>>>>>> and > > >> very > > >>>>>>> complex problem. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Ed > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > > >>>>>>>>> focus > > >> on > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > >> learning > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > > >>>>>>> change > > >>>>> (from > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > >> consideration > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > >>>>>>> culture > > >> or > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus on > > >>>>>>> what works > > >> locally > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > >>>>>>> actually > > >> works in > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it > > >>>>> might > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > >> teaching" > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>>> their schools. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same old > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > >>>>> method > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > > >>>>>>> be a > > >> push > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > >>>>>>> (Except > > >>>>> that > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > > >>>>>>> they > > >>>>> will > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes tests > > >> without > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > > >>>>>>> as I > > >>>>> know, > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a practicing > > >>>>> teacher. > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Katie > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> From: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > >>>>> > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink > > >>>>>>>>> at > > >>>>> Math? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > >>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> [...] > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > > >>>>>>>>>> idea > > >>>>> about > > >>>>>>> how > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > > >>>>> (un)learnt > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > > >> creative > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>>>>> Huw > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>>>> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140801/ce50d3db/attachment.jpg From bella.kotik@gmail.com Fri Aug 1 04:57:39 2014 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:57:39 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher education. Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his professional field. So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett wrote: > Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > > I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way > home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling and > they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the idea > at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths > educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere mortals. > I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt to > play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but how > interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths > that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > > Cheers, > Helen > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > Faculty of Education, > Room G64F, Building 902 > Monash University, Berwick campus > Phone: 9904 7171 > > *New Book: * > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > Approach > < > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > < > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > > > Hi Helen, > > > > > > > > My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew then > > that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try to > > dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. And > > see what happened: design does require some technical/ > > scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied > to > > the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > > considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > > whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > > "real" purpose. > > > > > > > > This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. There > > is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > lose. > > I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will > earn > > a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a > way > > among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real need > > for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > > different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I > > think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > > losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, lack > > of self-confidence, etc, etc. > > > > > > > > And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written > as > > guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > > Georgia, Athens: > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. > *The > > Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > > > > > > > > Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are > the > > proofs of the chapter): > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici (Ed.), > *The > > best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton > > University ?Press > > > > > > > > anna > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the citation > > for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > > provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > > discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high > > achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > > science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in > her > > selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested in > > subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of these). > > > > > > > > I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > before > > and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether it > > would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > > subject. In her early secondary school years when science was compulsory > > she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' science > > would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. > Her > > stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that > she > > doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > science > > homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to > > another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give > her > > more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, > yet > > I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > > avenues of study in the future. > > > > > > > > Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > worried > > about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In > all > > honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she > > says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close or > > with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into Year > 11 > > and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very > > transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > > argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > enough > > to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > > > > > > > > It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is reimagined > > in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of students. > > > > > > > > My thanks again, > > > > Helen > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > > > Faculty of Education, > > > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > > > > > *New Book: * > > > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > > Approach > > < > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > < > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > > On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > > > > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are we > > teaching mathematics?" > > > > > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > > > anna > > > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > > participate properly. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf > > Of > > Glassman, Michael > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > this. > > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my experience > > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something you > > do > > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics > > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the > wall > > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and > > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > still > > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly > for > > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But there > is > > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > things > > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education > in > > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in the > > 20s > > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > pretty > > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge in > > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > > classroom transferable anyway? > > > > > > > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once > in > > a > > while. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > > behalf > > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > > Culture, > > > > Activity > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > > > > > > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > > like > > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) > had > > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) > > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote > > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). Parents > > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > ago, > > I > > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > policy > > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, > she > > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't understand > > why > > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids in > > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and > said > > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > > > > > > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of > my > > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > (smile). > > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they are, > > in > > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > > asking > > why is useful. > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > > > > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school graduates" > > > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > > > > > > > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > > understandable terms. > > > > > > > > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > > > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to > be > > wrong! > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Katherine > > > > >> > > > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > > don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). > > > > >> > > > > >> Ed > > > > >> > > > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > > > > wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > > > > >>> same > > > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > > > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > > hours. > > > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > > > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > > > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > developed. > > > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > > > > >>> ways > > > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > > > >> prior experiences. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > > > >>> are > > > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > > > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm still > > > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work > with > > the others. > > > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > > > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Katie > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > >>> University of Georgia > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ________________________________________ > > > > >>> From: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > >>> < > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Greg > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may be > > > > >>> a > > > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances I > > > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > > > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > > > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > > > > >> i(and I meant both!) > > > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > > > >>> (and > > > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > > > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > > > >>> includes > > > > >> (mis)understandings!!) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > > > >>> school > > > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > > > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > > > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > > > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > > > >> (teachers and pre-service > > > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > > > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I have > > > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > > > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary teachers > > > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest 'academic' > > > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > > > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what is > > > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > > > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > > > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to know > > > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, they > > > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into > them > > no matter the situation. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Ed > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> Ed, > > > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the need > > > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that great > > > > >>>> things > > > > >> can > > > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > > > > >> effort to > > > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > > > > >> dent). > > > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > > > >> approach a > > > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > > > >> constraints of > > > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > > > > >>>> out > > > > >> what > > > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > > > > >>>> ideological context > > > > >> of > > > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > > > >>>> same good ideas > > > > >> keep > > > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > > > >> appeared]. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > > schooling > > context. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> -greg > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> Comments below > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > > > >>>>>> situation > > > > >> of > > > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > > > > >> Japanese > > > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 annual > > > > >> hours > > > > >>>>> of > > > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact time > > > > >>>>>> in > > > > >> the > > > > >>>>>> U.S. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Yes > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > > > >>>>>> childhood > > > > >>>>> greatly > > > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from adolescents > > > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > > > > >>>>>> the cruel > > > > >>>>> and > > > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > > > > >> school > > > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is more > > > > >>>>>> of > > > > >> an > > > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > > > >>>>>> enabling the > > > > >>>>> kind > > > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > > > > >>>>>> if > > > > >> there > > > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > > > >>>>>> teachers > > > > >> would > > > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > > U.S. > > > > >> not > > > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > > > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > > > >>>>>> exceptions, > > > > >> it > > > > >>>>> is > > > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > > valued particularly highly. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > > > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > > > > >>>>> That > > > > >> doesn't > > > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > > powers-that-be. > > > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > > > > >>>>> mentoring > > > > >> system > > > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > > > >>>>> anecdotal) > > > > >> is > > > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > > > > >> happening > > > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > > > > >> community > > > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > > > >>>>> published > > > > >> by > > > > >>>>> teachers. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > > teachers' > > > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in which > > > > >> those > > > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > > > >>>>>> more difficult still. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > > > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > > > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > > teachers are viewed. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > > > >> schooling in > > > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > > > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > > > > >>>>> also be a > > > > >> good > > > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > > > >>>>> seen > > > > >> very > > > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > > > > >> colleague > > > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > > > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > > > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > > > > >>>>> getting > > > > >> steadily > > > > >>>>> worse. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > > > >>>>>> -greg > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Ed > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >> < > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > >> g.html?_r=0 > > > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to the > > > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > > > > >>>>>>>> in the > > > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > > > >>>>>>> version > > > > >> of > > > > >>>>> the > > > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > > > >>>>>>> beginning > > > > >> in > > > > >>>>> the > > > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > > > >>>>>>> similar as > > > > >> a > > > > >>>>> K-12 > > > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > > > >>>>>>> little > > > > >> 'new' > > > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > > > > >>>>>>> there > > > > >>>>> is a > > > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > > > > >>>>>>> doing > > > > >> (I > > > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between meetings > > > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > > > >>>>>>> kids making > > > > >>>>> sense). > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > > > > >>>>>>>> being > > > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high stakes > > > > >> testing > > > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > > > >>>>>>> Japan); > > > > >>>>> there > > > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > > > > >>>>> teachers to > > > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > > > >>>>>>> college > > > > >>>>> courses; > > > > >>>>>>> and more. > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > > > > >>>>>>> if > > > > >>>>> somewhat > > > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > > > >>>>>>>> has > > > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > > > > >>>>>>> sync > > > > >>>>> with > > > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > > > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > > > >>>>>>> core > > > > >> (although > > > > >>>>> one > > > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > > > >>>>>>> rather > > > > >>>>> than > > > > >>>>>>> Japan). > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > > > >>>>>>>> teacher > > > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > > > > >>>>> Standards > > > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > > > > >>>>>>> (from > > > > >> the > > > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > > > > >>>>>>>> and > > > > >> very > > > > >>>>>>> complex problem. > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Ed > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > > > > >>>>>>>>> focus > > > > >> on > > > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > > > >> learning > > > > >>>>> to > > > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > > > > >>>>>>> change > > > > >>>>> (from > > > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > > > >> consideration > > > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > > > >>>>>>> culture > > > > >> or > > > > >>>>> the > > > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus on > > > > >>>>>>> what works > > > > >> locally > > > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > > > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > > >> works in > > > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it > > > > >>>>> might > > > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > > > >> teaching" > > > > >>>>> in > > > > >>>>>>> their schools. > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning > > > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same old > > > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > > > >>>>> method > > > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > > > > >>>>>>> be a > > > > >> push > > > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > > > >>>>>>> (Except > > > > >>>>> that > > > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > > > > >>>>>>> they > > > > >>>>> will > > > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes tests > > > > >> without > > > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > > > > >>>>>>> as I > > > > >>>>> know, > > > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a practicing > > > > >>>>> teacher. > > > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > > >>>>> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink > > > > >>>>>>>>> at > > > > >>>>> Math? > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > > > >>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>> [...] > > > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > > > > >>>>>>>>>> idea > > > > >>>>> about > > > > >>>>>>> how > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > > > > >>>>> (un)learnt > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > > > > >> creative > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Best, > > > > >>>>>>>>> Huw > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > > > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > > > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > >>>>>> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> -- > > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > >>>> > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Fri Aug 1 07:06:25 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 10:06:25 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Call for papers on mind wandering and learning for a special section of Learning and Individual Differences Message-ID: <74DE5EAB-4AB6-4243-B2E0-C239AF2A6097@gmail.com> Dear colleagues, I am re-sending this call as there is still time to submit. Please share with interested colleagues, David Call for papers on mind wandering and learning for a special section of Learning and Individual Differences The research on the impact of mind wandering on the learning process and education is mixed. Thus, some researchers have noted that mind wandering negatively impacts students? performance on school related abilities requiring high levels of concentration and metacognition, such as reading, attending lectures or, more specifically, performance on standardized measures of academic achievement. Yet, other researchers have noticed that mind wandering is a regular part of everyday normal functioning and have called attention to its positive impact on emotional processing, creativity and problem solving. Additionally, the research literature has reported that there are individual differences not only in people?s tendency to engage in mind wandering but also in the content of this wandering. These differences have consequences for how adaptive mind wandering may be in everyday functioning and, specifically, within educational contexts. Here, we seek contributions that represent innovative research on individual differences in mind wandering that: a) synthesize insights from multiple approaches and perspectives on individual differences in mind wandering; b) focus on the integration of research on mind wandering with research on school related abilities with special attention on those that are part and parcel of the core of the schooling process; c) relate mind wandering with the development of abilities and processes that, although not specifically academic, play a relevant role in schooling and education such as creativity, divergent thinking, imagination, and problem solving, among others; d) and investigate the connection between mind wandering and school related performance at different stages of schooling, from elementary school through college. Special consideration will be given to articles that place mind wandering in the context of overall human development. Original research and review articles will be considered. Submissions allow two formats: full-length articles (10,000 words) and short empirical reports or case studies (5,000 words); the page limits do not include the abstract, references, figures, or tables. Articles should reach the editorial office before August 30th 2014 to receive full consideration. When submitting articles, authors should indicate that their manuscript is intended for the special issue (mind wandering). Contact David Preiss (davidpreiss@uc.cl) if you have questions about the submission. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Aug 1 08:16:47 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:16:47 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in theoretical Physics. Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I have also tried to provide examples of science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm very anxious... -greg On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. > Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). > He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving > different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with > math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that > his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition > "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math > capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without > matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher > education. > Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him > that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person > is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and > successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his > professional field. > So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett > > wrote: > > > Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > > > > I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way > > home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling > and > > they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the > idea > > at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > > Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths > > educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere > mortals. > > I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt > to > > play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but > how > > interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths > > that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > > > > Cheers, > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > Faculty of Education, > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > *New Book: * > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > > Approach > > < > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > < > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > > > > > Hi Helen, > > > > > > > > > > > > My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew > then > > > that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try > to > > > dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. > And > > > see what happened: design does require some technical/ > > > scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied > > to > > > the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > > > considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > > > whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > > > "real" purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. > There > > > is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > > lose. > > > I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will > > earn > > > a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a > > way > > > among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real > need > > > for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > > > different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I > > > think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > > > losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, > lack > > > of self-confidence, etc, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written > > as > > > guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > > > Georgia, Athens: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. > > *The > > > Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are > > the > > > proofs of the chapter): > > > > > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici > (Ed.), > > *The > > > best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton > > > University ?Press > > > > > > > > > > > > anna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > > > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > > > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > > > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > Math? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the > citation > > > for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > > > provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > > > discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high > > > achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > > > science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in > > her > > > selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested > in > > > subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of > these). > > > > > > > > > > > > I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > > before > > > and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether > it > > > would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > > > subject. In her early secondary school years when science was > compulsory > > > she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' > science > > > would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. > > Her > > > stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that > > she > > > doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > > science > > > homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to > > > another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give > > her > > > more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, > > yet > > > I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > > > avenues of study in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > > worried > > > about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In > > all > > > honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she > > > says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close > or > > > with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into > Year > > 11 > > > and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very > > > transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > > > argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > > enough > > > to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is > reimagined > > > in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of > students. > > > > > > > > > > > > My thanks again, > > > > > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > > > > > Faculty of Education, > > > > > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > > > > > > > > > *New Book: * > > > > > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > Cultural-Historical > > > Approach > > > < > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > < > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > > > > > > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are > we > > > teaching mathematics?" > > > > > > > > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > > > > > anna > > > > > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > > > participate properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > > Behalf > > > Of > > > Glassman, Michael > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > > this. > > > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my > experience > > > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something > you > > > do > > > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics > > > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the > > wall > > > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up > and > > > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > > still > > > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly > > for > > > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But > there > > is > > > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > > things > > > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education > > in > > > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in > the > > > 20s > > > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > > pretty > > > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge > in > > > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > > > classroom transferable anyway? > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once > > in > > > a > > > while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > > > From: > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > > > behalf > > > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > > > Culture, > > > > > > Activity > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > > > > > > > > > > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > > > like > > > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) > > had > > > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) > > > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote > > > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). > Parents > > > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > > > > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > > ago, > > > I > > > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > > policy > > > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, > > she > > > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't > understand > > > why > > > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids > in > > > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and > > said > > > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > > > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of > > my > > > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > > (smile). > > > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > > > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they > are, > > > in > > > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > > > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > > > asking > > > why is useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > > > > > > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > > > > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school > graduates" > > > > > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > > > > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > > > > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > > > > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > > > > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > > > understandable terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > > > > > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > > > > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to > > be > > > wrong! > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Katherine > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > > > > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > > > > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > > > > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > > > > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > > > don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > > > > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Ed > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > > > > > > wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > > > > > > >>> same > > > > > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > > > > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > > > > > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > > > hours. > > > > > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > > > > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > > > > > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > > > > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > > > > > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > > developed. > > > > > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > > > > > > >>> ways > > > > > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > > > > > >> prior experiences. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > > > > > >>> are > > > > > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > > > > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > > > > > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm > still > > > > > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > > > > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work > > with > > > the others. > > > > > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > > > > > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > > > > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Katie > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > > > >>> University of Georgia > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > >>> From: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > >>> < > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > > > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Greg > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may > be > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances > I > > > > > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > > > > > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > > > > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > > > > > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > > > > > > >> i(and I meant both!) > > > > > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > > > > > >>> (and > > > > > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > > > > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > > > > > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > > > > > >>> includes > > > > > > >> (mis)understandings!!) > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > > > > > >>> school > > > > > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > > > > > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > > > > > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > > > > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > > > > > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > > > > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > > > > > >> (teachers and pre-service > > > > > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > > > > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > > > > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > > > > > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > > > > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I > have > > > > > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > > > > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > > > > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > > > > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > > > > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > > > > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > > > > > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary > teachers > > > > > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > > > > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest > 'academic' > > > > > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > > > > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > > > > > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > > > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what > is > > > > > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > > > > > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > > > > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > > > > > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to > know > > > > > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, > they > > > > > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into > > them > > > no matter the situation. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > > > > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > > > > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > > > > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > > > > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > > > > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Ed > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> Ed, > > > > > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the > need > > > > > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that > great > > > > > > >>>> things > > > > > > >> can > > > > > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > > > > > > >> effort to > > > > > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > > > > > > >> dent). > > > > > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > > > > > >> approach a > > > > > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > > > > > >> constraints of > > > > > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > > > > > > >>>> out > > > > > > >> what > > > > > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > > > > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > > > > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > > > > > > >>>> ideological context > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > > > > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > > > > > >>>> same good ideas > > > > > > >> keep > > > > > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > > > > > >> appeared]. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > > > > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > > > schooling > > > context. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -greg > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu > > > > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Comments below > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > > > > > >>>>>> situation > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > > > > > > >> Japanese > > > > > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 > annual > > > > > > >> hours > > > > > > >>>>> of > > > > > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact > time > > > > > > >>>>>> in > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >>>>>> U.S. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > > > > > >>>>>> childhood > > > > > > >>>>> greatly > > > > > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from > adolescents > > > > > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > > > > > > >>>>>> the cruel > > > > > > >>>>> and > > > > > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > > > > > > >> school > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > > > > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is > more > > > > > > >>>>>> of > > > > > > >> an > > > > > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > > > > > >>>>>> enabling the > > > > > > >>>>> kind > > > > > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > > > > > > >>>>>> if > > > > > > >> there > > > > > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers > > > > > > >> would > > > > > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > > > U.S. > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > > > > > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > > > > > >>>>>> exceptions, > > > > > > >> it > > > > > > >>>>> is > > > > > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > > > > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > > > > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > > > valued particularly highly. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > > > > > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > > > > > > >>>>> That > > > > > > >> doesn't > > > > > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > > > powers-that-be. > > > > > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > > > > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > > > > > > >>>>> mentoring > > > > > > >> system > > > > > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > > > > > >>>>> anecdotal) > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > > > > > > >> happening > > > > > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > > > > > > >> community > > > > > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > > > > > >>>>> published > > > > > > >> by > > > > > > >>>>> teachers. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > > > teachers' > > > > > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in > which > > > > > > >> those > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > > > > > >>>>>> more difficult still. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > > > > > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > > > > > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > > > teachers are viewed. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > > > > > >> schooling in > > > > > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > > > > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > > > > > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > > > > > > >>>>> also be a > > > > > > >> good > > > > > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > > > > > >>>>> seen > > > > > > >> very > > > > > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > > > > > > >> colleague > > > > > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > > > > > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > > > > > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > > > > > > >>>>> getting > > > > > > >> steadily > > > > > > >>>>> worse. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > > > > > >>>>>> -greg > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > > > > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Ed > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >> < > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > > > >> g.html?_r=0 > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to > the > > > > > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > > > > > > >>>>>>>> in the > > > > > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > > > > > >>>>>>> version > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > > > > > >>>>>>> beginning > > > > > > >> in > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > > > > > >>>>>>> similar as > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > >>>>> K-12 > > > > > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > > > > > >>>>>>> little > > > > > > >> 'new' > > > > > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > > > > > > >>>>>>> there > > > > > > >>>>> is a > > > > > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > > > > > > >>>>>>> doing > > > > > > >> (I > > > > > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between > meetings > > > > > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > > > > > >>>>>>> kids making > > > > > > >>>>> sense). > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > > > > > > >>>>>>>> being > > > > > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high > stakes > > > > > > >> testing > > > > > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > > > > > >>>>>>> Japan); > > > > > > >>>>> there > > > > > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > > > > > > >>>>> teachers to > > > > > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > > > > > >>>>>>> college > > > > > > >>>>> courses; > > > > > > >>>>>>> and more. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > > > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > > > > > > >>>>>>> if > > > > > > >>>>> somewhat > > > > > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > > > > > >>>>>>>> has > > > > > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > > > > > > >>>>>>> sync > > > > > > >>>>> with > > > > > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > > > > > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > > > > > >>>>>>> core > > > > > > >> (although > > > > > > >>>>> one > > > > > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > > > > > >>>>>>> rather > > > > > > >>>>> than > > > > > > >>>>>>> Japan). > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > > > > > >>>>>>>> teacher > > > > > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > > > > > > >>>>> Standards > > > > > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > > > > > > >>>>>>> (from > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > > > > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > > > > > > >>>>>>>> and > > > > > > >> very > > > > > > >>>>>>> complex problem. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Ed > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > > > > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> focus > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > > > > > >> learning > > > > > > >>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > > > > > > >>>>>>> change > > > > > > >>>>> (from > > > > > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > > > > > >> consideration > > > > > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > > > > > >>>>>>> culture > > > > > > >> or > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > > > > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus > on > > > > > > >>>>>>> what works > > > > > > >> locally > > > > > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > > > > > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > > > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > > > > >> works in > > > > > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > > > > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it > > > > > > >>>>> might > > > > > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > > > > > >> teaching" > > > > > > >>>>> in > > > > > > >>>>>>> their schools. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning > > > > > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same > old > > > > > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > > > > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > > > > > >>>>> method > > > > > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > > > > > > >>>>>>> be a > > > > > > >> push > > > > > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > > > > > >>>>>>> (Except > > > > > > >>>>> that > > > > > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > > > > > > >>>>>>> they > > > > > > >>>>> will > > > > > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes > tests > > > > > > >> without > > > > > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > > > > > > >>>>>>> as I > > > > > > >>>>> know, > > > > > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a > practicing > > > > > > >>>>> teacher. > > > > > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > > > > >>>>> > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > > > > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans > Stink > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> at > > > > > > >>>>> Math? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> [...] > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> idea > > > > > > >>>>> about > > > > > > >>>>>>> how > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > > > > > > >>>>> (un)learnt > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > > > > > > >> creative > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Best, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Huw > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > > > > > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > > > > > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ewall@umich.edu Fri Aug 1 08:54:55 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 11:54:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: Greg and all I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I decided to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college because I felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism (smile) or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this workshop I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the problems people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in teacher training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes underwhelmed by us. Ed On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > theoretical Physics. > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I > have also tried to provide examples of > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm > very anxious... > > -greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > >> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >> education. >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his >> professional field. >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >> >> >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett >> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>> >>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way >>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling >> and >>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the >> idea >>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths >>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >> mortals. >>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt >> to >>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but >> how >>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths >>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Helen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>> Faculty of Education, >>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>> >>> *New Book: * >>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical >>> Approach >>> < >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>> >>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>> >>> >>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Helen, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >> then >>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try >> to >>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >> And >>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied >>> to >>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, >>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master >>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some >>>> "real" purpose. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >> There >>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>> lose. >>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will >>> earn >>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a >>> way >>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >> need >>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I >>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >> lack >>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written >>> as >>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. >>> *The >>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are >>> the >>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >> (Ed.), >>> *The >>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton >>>> University ?Press >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> anna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >> citation >>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also >>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high >>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in >>> her >>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested >> in >>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >> these). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>> before >>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether >> it >>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >> compulsory >>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >> science >>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. >>> Her >>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that >>> she >>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>> science >>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to >>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give >>> her >>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, >>> yet >>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for >>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>> worried >>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In >>> all >>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she >>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close >> or >>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >> Year >>> 11 >>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very >>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>> enough >>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >> reimagined >>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >> students. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My thanks again, >>>> >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>> >>>> Faculty of Education, >>>> >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *New Book: * >>>> >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >> Cultural-Historical >>>> Approach >>>> < >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>> < >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>> >>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are >> we >>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>> >>>> >>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>> >>>> anna >>>> >>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to >>>> participate properly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf >>>> Of >>>> Glassman, Michael >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>> this. >>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >> experience >>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something >> you >>>> do >>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics >>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the >>> wall >>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up >> and >>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>> still >>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly >>> for >>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >> there >>> is >>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>> things >>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education >>> in >>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >> the >>>> 20s >>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>> pretty >>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge >> in >>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the >>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once >>> in >>>> a >>>> while. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: >>>> >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on >>>> behalf >>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>> Culture, >>>> >>>> Activity >>>> >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something >>>> like >>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) >>> had >>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) >>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote >>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >> Parents >>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>> >>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>> ago, >>>> I >>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>> policy >>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, >>> she >>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >> understand >>>> why >>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids >> in >>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and >>> said >>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I >>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of >>> my >>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>> (smile). >>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little >>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >> are, >>>> in >>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although >>>> asking >>>> why is useful. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>> >>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>> >>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >> graduates" >>>> >>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>> >>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>> >>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>> >>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>> >>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>> understandable terms. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That >>>> >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>> >>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to >>> be >>>> wrong! >>>> >>>>> mike >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Katherine >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>> >>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>> >>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>> >>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>> >>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I >>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>> >>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>> >>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the >>>> >>>>>>> same >>>> >>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>> >>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining >>>> >>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 >>>> hours. >>>> >>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>> >>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary >>>> >>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>> >>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the >>>> >>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>> developed. >>>> >>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >>>> >>>>>>> ways >>>> >>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>> >>>>>> prior experiences. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>> >>>>>>> are >>>> >>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>> >>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't >>>> >>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >> still >>>> >>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>> >>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work >>> with >>>> the others. >>>> >>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands >>>> >>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>> >>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Katie >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>> >>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>>> < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> >>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>> >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Greg >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >> be >>>> >>>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances >> I >>>> >>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >>>> >>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>> >>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >>>> >>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement >>>> >>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>> >>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>> >>>>>>> (and >>>> >>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>> >>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) >>>> >>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>> >>>>>>> includes >>>> >>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>> >>>>>>> school >>>> >>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are >>>> >>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most >>>> >>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>> >>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). >>>> >>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>> >>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>> >>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>> >>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>> >>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>> >>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >>>> >>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>> >>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >> have >>>> >>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>> >>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>> >>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>> >>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>> >>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>> >>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >>>> >>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >> teachers >>>> >>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>> >>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >> 'academic' >>>> >>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>> >>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an >>>> >>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >> is >>>> >>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure >>>> >>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>> >>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean >>>> >>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >> know >>>> >>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >> they >>>> >>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into >>> them >>>> no matter the situation. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>> >>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>> >>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>> >>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>> >>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>> >>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Ed, >>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >> need >>>> >>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >> great >>>> >>>>>>>> things >>>> >>>>>> can >>>> >>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >>>> >>>>>> effort to >>>> >>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a >>>> >>>>>> dent). >>>> >>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>> >>>>>> approach a >>>> >>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>> >>>>>> constraints of >>>> >>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >>>> >>>>>>>> out >>>> >>>>>> what >>>> >>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>> >>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>> >>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and >>>> >>>>>>>> ideological context >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>> >>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>> >>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>> >>>>>> keep >>>> >>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>> >>>>>> appeared]. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>> >>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>> schooling >>>> context. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -greg >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> situation >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the >>>> >>>>>> Japanese >>>> >>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >> annual >>>> >>>>>> hours >>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >> time >>>> >>>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>> >>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>> >>>>>>>>> greatly >>>> >>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >> adolescents >>>> >>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>> >>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary >>>> >>>>>> school >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>> >>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >> more >>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>> an >>>> >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>> >>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>> >>>>>>>>> kind >>>> >>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >>>> >>>>>>>>>> if >>>> >>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>> >>>>>> would >>>> >>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the >>>> U.S. >>>> >>>>>> not >>>> >>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>> >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>> >>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not >>>> valued particularly highly. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >>>> >>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). >>>> >>>>>>>>> That >>>> >>>>>> doesn't >>>> >>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>> powers-that-be. >>>> >>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>> >>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >>>> >>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>> >>>>>> system >>>> >>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>> >>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>> >>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were >>>> >>>>>> happening >>>> >>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >>>> >>>>>> community >>>> >>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>> >>>>>>>>> published >>>> >>>>>> by >>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>> teachers' >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >> which >>>> >>>>>> those >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>> >>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to >>>> >>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >>>> >>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>> teachers are viewed. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>> >>>>>> schooling in >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and >>>> >>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might >>>> >>>>>>>>> also be a >>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>> >>>>>>>>> seen >>>> >>>>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >>>> >>>>>> colleague >>>> >>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >>>> >>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >>>> >>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >>>> >>>>>>>>> getting >>>> >>>>>> steadily >>>> >>>>>>>>> worse. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>> >>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> < >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>> >>>> >>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> version >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>> >>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>> >>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> little >>>> >>>>>> 'new' >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>> is a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>> >>>>>> (I >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >> meetings >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>> >>>>>>>>> sense). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >> stakes >>>> >>>>>> testing >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>> >>>>>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; >>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> college >>>> >>>>>>>>> courses; >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>> >>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>> >>>>>>>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> core >>>> >>>>>> (although >>>> >>>>>>>>> one >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>> >>>>>>>>> than >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core >>>> >>>>>>>>> Standards >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>> >>>>>> on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>> >>>>>> learning >>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> change >>>> >>>>>>>>> (from >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>> >>>>>> consideration >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>> >>>>>> or >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >> on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>> >>>>>> locally >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>> >>>>>> works in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>> >>>>>>>>> might >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>> >>>>>> teaching" >>>> >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >> old >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>> >>>>>>>>> method >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>> >>>>>> push >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>> >>>>>>>>> that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>> >>>>>>>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >> tests >>>> >>>>>> without >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>> >>>>>>>>> know, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >> practicing >>>> >>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>> >>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >> Stink >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>> >>>>>>>>> Math? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>> >>>>>>>>> about >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply >>>> >>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >>>> >>>>>> creative >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:05:54 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 18:05:54 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: The line of investigation that I am taking in my own research (PhD) is that it is not "meanings in discourse" that are essential, but rather the meanings in activity (which may, of course, manifest in discourse). The way I read the whole cultural-historical theory implies that this is logically necessary in the recapitulation of the history of ideas. With respect to anecdotes, I recall, as a primary school student (age 8) playing with programming a great deal. For school purposes, the computers were used to run a few mathematical games. I am not really sure they achieved much, though the kids enjoyed playing them. However, I would say that a significant outcome of my amateur programming (which was not part of the school practice in any way) was that I equipped my self with a "mental graph paper" in which I would happily envisage graphical forms, such as curve trajectories etc, and variations of algorithms required to produce them. The more I have reflected on this engagement, the more I have come to appreciate that this was a far more profound source of education that cannot be "taught" (as conventionally practiced). I have before me a ring bound programming manual, some four hundred pages thick which I used to take home with me (from school) and read front to back. I think I used to borrow it so often that I was given a copy. Having worked professionally in writing software, I know that this story is not unusual. Now, the issue with "story telling" and personal creative involvement is one I find agreeable, provided it is understood that story telling is not merely about discourse. The business of "story telling" as it pertains to objectively directed imagination (i.e. the imagination of things that will work or have a desired effect) is that they require construing the world, hence it is the mathematical construal of phenomena and generalisations of this construing which I am studying (rather than generalisations of notation, as is often taught). Am being called away again... hope this is interesting and pertinent Best, Huw On 1 August 2014 16:54, Ed Wall wrote: > Greg and all > > I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I > decided to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the > university/college because I felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, > perhaps because of pessimism (smile) or just unaware of possibilities > (there are a lot of the latter at this workshop I'm attending), had gotten > in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the problems people are seeing > aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in teacher training. I do > know some of my students (college students) are sometimes underwhelmed by > us. > > Ed > > On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is > somewhere > > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, > creative, > > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > > theoretical Physics. > > > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't > been > > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and > > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set > of > > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile > game > > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I > > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have > > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). > I > > have also tried to provide examples of > > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones > > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it > in > > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and > > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after > > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I > also > > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who > will > > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from > my > > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm > > very anxious... > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > bella.kotik@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. > >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). > >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving > >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with > >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, > that > >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in > addition > >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math > >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without > >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher > >> education. > >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained > him > >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented > person > >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied > and > >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his > >> professional field. > >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. > >> > >> > >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < > helen.grimmett@monash.edu > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > >>> > >>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way > >>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling > >> and > >>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the > >> idea > >>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > >>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths > >>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere > >> mortals. > >>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt > >> to > >>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but > >> how > >>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing > maths > >>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Helen > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dr Helen Grimmett > >>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, > >>> Faculty of Education, > >>> Room G64F, Building 902 > >>> Monash University, Berwick campus > >>> Phone: 9904 7171 > >>> > >>> *New Book: * > >>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > Cultural-Historical > >>> Approach > >>> < > >>> > >> > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > >>>> > >>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> < > >>> > >> > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Helen, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew > >> then > >>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try > >> to > >>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. > >> And > >>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ > >>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she > applied > >>> to > >>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > >>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > >>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > >>>> "real" purpose. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. > >> There > >>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > >>> lose. > >>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will > >>> earn > >>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a > >>> way > >>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real > >> need > >>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > >>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, > I > >>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > >>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, > >> lack > >>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally > written > >>> as > >>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > >>>> Georgia, Athens: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest > editorial. > >>> *The > >>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are > >>> the > >>>> proofs of the chapter): > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici > >> (Ed.), > >>> *The > >>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: > Princeton > >>>> University ?Press > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> anna > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > >> Math? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the > >> citation > >>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > >>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > >>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very > high > >>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > >>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in > >>> her > >>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested > >> in > >>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of > >> these). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > >>> before > >>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether > >> it > >>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > >>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was > >> compulsory > >>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' > >> science > >>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. > >>> Her > >>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now > that > >>> she > >>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > >>> science > >>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead > to > >>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and > give > >>> her > >>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, > >>> yet > >>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > >>>> avenues of study in the future. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > >>> worried > >>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In > >>> all > >>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when > she > >>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close > >> or > >>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into > >> Year > >>> 11 > >>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it > very > >>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > >>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > >>> enough > >>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is > >> reimagined > >>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of > >> students. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> My thanks again, > >>>> > >>>> Helen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett > >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, > >>>> > >>>> Faculty of Education, > >>>> > >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 > >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus > >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> *New Book: * > >>>> > >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > >> Cultural-Historical > >>>> Approach > >>>> < > >>> > >> > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] > >>>> < > >>> > >> > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > >>>> > >>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are > >> we > >>>> teaching mathematics?" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. > >>>> > >>>> anna > >>>> > >>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > >>>> participate properly. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > >>> Behalf > >>>> Of > >>>> Glassman, Michael > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > >>> this. > >>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my > >> experience > >>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something > >> you > >>>> do > >>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards > statistics > >>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the > >>> wall > >>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up > >> and > >>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > >>> still > >>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly > >>> for > >>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But > >> there > >>> is > >>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > >>> things > >>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as > education > >>> in > >>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in > >> the > >>>> 20s > >>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > >>> pretty > >>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge > >> in > >>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > >>>> classroom transferable anyway? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every > once > >>> in > >>>> a > >>>> while. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Michael > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> From: > >>>> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > >>>> behalf > >>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > >>>> > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > >>>> Culture, > >>>> > >>>> Activity > >>>> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > >>>> like > >>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps > two) > >>> had > >>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully > debated) > >>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a > rote > >>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). > >> Parents > >>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > >>> ago, > >>>> I > >>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > >>> policy > >>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. > Finally, > >>> she > >>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't > >> understand > >>>> why > >>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids > >> in > >>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and > >>> said > >>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > >>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of > >>> my > >>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > >>> (smile). > >>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > >>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they > >> are, > >>>> in > >>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > >>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > >>>> asking > >>>> why is useful. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > >>>> > >>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > >>>> > >>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school > >> graduates" > >>>> > >>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > >>>> > >>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > >>>> > >>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > >>>> > >>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > >>>> > >>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > >>>> understandable terms. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > >>>> > >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > >>>> > >>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to > >>> be > >>>> wrong! > >>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > >>>> > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> Katherine > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > >>>> > >>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > >>>> > >>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > >>>> > >>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > >>>> > >>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > >>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. > >>>> > >>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > >>>> > >>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > >>>> > >>>>>>> same > >>>> > >>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > >>>> > >>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > >>>> > >>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > >>>> hours. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > >>>> > >>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > >>>> > >>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > >>> developed. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > >>>> > >>>>>>> ways > >>>> > >>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > >>>> > >>>>>> prior experiences. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > >>>> > >>>>>>> are > >>>> > >>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > >>>> > >>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > >>>> > >>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm > >> still > >>>> > >>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > >>>> > >>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work > >>> with > >>>> the others. > >>>> > >>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > >>>> > >>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > >>>> > >>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Katie > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > >>>> > >>>>>>> University of Georgia > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>>>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> > >>>>>>> < > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>> > >>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > >>>> > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Greg > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may > >> be > >>>> > >>>>>>> a > >>>> > >>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances > >> I > >>>> > >>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > >>>> > >>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > >>>> > >>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > >>>> > >>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > >>>> > >>>>>> i(and I meant both!) > >>>> > >>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > >>>> > >>>>>>> (and > >>>> > >>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > >>>> > >>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > >>>> > >>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > >>>> > >>>>>>> includes > >>>> > >>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > >>>> > >>>>>>> school > >>>> > >>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > >>>> > >>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > >>>> > >>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > >>>> > >>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > >>>> > >>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > >>>> > >>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > >>>> > >>>>>> (teachers and pre-service > >>>> > >>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > >>>> > >>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > >>>> > >>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > >>>> > >>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > >>>> > >>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I > >> have > >>>> > >>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > >>>> > >>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > >>>> > >>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > >>>> > >>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > >>>> > >>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > >>>> > >>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > >>>> > >>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary > >> teachers > >>>> > >>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > >>>> > >>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest > >> 'academic' > >>>> > >>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > >>>> > >>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > >>>> > >>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > >>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what > >> is > >>>> > >>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > >>>> > >>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > >>>> > >>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > >>>> > >>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to > >> know > >>>> > >>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, > >> they > >>>> > >>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into > >>> them > >>>> no matter the situation. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > >>>> > >>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > >>>> > >>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > >>>> > >>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > >>>> > >>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > >>>> > >>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Ed, > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the > >> need > >>>> > >>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that > >> great > >>>> > >>>>>>>> things > >>>> > >>>>>> can > >>>> > >>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > >>>> > >>>>>> effort to > >>>> > >>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > >>>> > >>>>>> dent). > >>>> > >>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > >>>> > >>>>>> approach a > >>>> > >>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > >>>> > >>>>>> constraints of > >>>> > >>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > >>>> > >>>>>>>> out > >>>> > >>>>>> what > >>>> > >>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > >>>> > >>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > >>>> > >>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > >>>> > >>>>>>>> ideological context > >>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > >>>> > >>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > >>>> > >>>>>>>> same good ideas > >>>> > >>>>>> keep > >>>> > >>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > >>>> > >>>>>> appeared]. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > >>>> > >>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > >>>> schooling > >>>> context. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Comments below > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> situation > >>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > >>>> > >>>>>> Japanese > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 > >> annual > >>>> > >>>>>> hours > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact > >> time > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> in > >>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> U.S. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> childhood > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> greatly > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from > >> adolescents > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> the cruel > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > >>>> > >>>>>> school > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is > >> more > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>> an > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> enabling the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> kind > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> if > >>>> > >>>>>> there > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teachers > >>>> > >>>>>> would > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > >>>> U.S. > >>>> > >>>>>> not > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, > >>>> > >>>>>> it > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > >>>> valued particularly highly. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> That > >>>> > >>>>>> doesn't > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > >>>> powers-that-be. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> mentoring > >>>> > >>>>>> system > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> anecdotal) > >>>> > >>>>>> is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > >>>> > >>>>>> happening > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > >>>> > >>>>>> community > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> published > >>>> > >>>>>> by > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> teachers. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > >>>> teachers' > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in > >> which > >>>> > >>>>>> those > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > >>>> teachers are viewed. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > >>>> > >>>>>> schooling in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> also be a > >>>> > >>>>>> good > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> seen > >>>> > >>>>>> very > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > >>>> > >>>>>> colleague > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> getting > >>>> > >>>>>> steadily > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> worse. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>> ewall@umich.edu> > >>>> > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> < > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> g.html?_r=0 > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to > >> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> in the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> version > >>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> beginning > >>>> > >>>>>> in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> similar as > >>>> > >>>>>> a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> K-12 > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> little > >>>> > >>>>>> 'new' > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> there > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> is a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> doing > >>>> > >>>>>> (I > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between > >> meetings > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> kids making > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> sense). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high > >> stakes > >>>> > >>>>>> testing > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Japan); > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> there > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> teachers to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> college > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> courses; > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> and more. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> somewhat > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> has > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> sync > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> with > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> core > >>>> > >>>>>> (although > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> one > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> rather > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> than > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Japan). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Standards > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (from > >>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>> > >>>>>> very > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus > >>>> > >>>>>> on > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > >>>> > >>>>>> learning > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> change > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> (from > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > >>>> > >>>>>> consideration > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> culture > >>>> > >>>>>> or > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus > >> on > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> what works > >>>> > >>>>>> locally > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> actually > >>>> > >>>>>> works in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> might > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > >>>> > >>>>>> teaching" > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> their schools. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same > >> old > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> method > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> be a > >>>> > >>>>>> push > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (Except > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> that > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> they > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> will > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes > >> tests > >>>> > >>>>>> without > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> as I > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> know, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a > >> practicing > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> teacher. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > >>>> > >>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans > >> Stink > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> at > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Math? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> < > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> about > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> how > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> (un)learnt > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > >>>> > >>>>>> creative > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From tvmathdude@aol.com Fri Aug 1 19:50:58 2014 From: tvmathdude@aol.com (Tvmathdude) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 22:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> Colleagues, Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction in our schools: 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my family on the salary". 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and mind of the disenchanted. 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of the basics and the nuances of algebra. 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are preparing to teach in the elementary grades. 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are also lacking. 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. - Roger Breen -----Original Message----- From: Ed Wall To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Greg and all I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I decided to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college because I felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism (smile) or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this workshop I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the problems people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in teacher training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes underwhelmed by us. Ed On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > theoretical Physics. > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I > have also tried to provide examples of > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm > very anxious... > > -greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > >> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >> education. >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his >> professional field. >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >> >> >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett >> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>> >>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way >>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling >> and >>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the >> idea >>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths >>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >> mortals. >>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt >> to >>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but >> how >>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths >>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Helen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>> Faculty of Education, >>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>> >>> *New Book: * >>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical >>> Approach >>> < >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>> >>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>> >>> >>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Helen, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >> then >>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try >> to >>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >> And >>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied >>> to >>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, >>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master >>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some >>>> "real" purpose. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >> There >>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>> lose. >>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will >>> earn >>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a >>> way >>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >> need >>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I >>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >> lack >>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written >>> as >>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. >>> *The >>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are >>> the >>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >> (Ed.), >>> *The >>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton >>>> University ?Press >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> anna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >> citation >>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also >>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high >>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in >>> her >>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested >> in >>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >> these). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>> before >>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether >> it >>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >> compulsory >>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >> science >>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. >>> Her >>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that >>> she >>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>> science >>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to >>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give >>> her >>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, >>> yet >>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for >>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>> worried >>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In >>> all >>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she >>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close >> or >>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >> Year >>> 11 >>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very >>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>> enough >>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >> reimagined >>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >> students. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My thanks again, >>>> >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>> >>>> Faculty of Education, >>>> >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *New Book: * >>>> >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >> Cultural-Historical >>>> Approach >>>> < >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>> < >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>> >>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are >> we >>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>> >>>> >>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>> >>>> anna >>>> >>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to >>>> participate properly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf >>>> Of >>>> Glassman, Michael >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>> this. >>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >> experience >>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something >> you >>>> do >>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics >>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the >>> wall >>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up >> and >>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>> still >>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly >>> for >>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >> there >>> is >>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>> things >>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education >>> in >>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >> the >>>> 20s >>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>> pretty >>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge >> in >>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the >>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once >>> in >>>> a >>>> while. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: >>>> >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on >>>> behalf >>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>> Culture, >>>> >>>> Activity >>>> >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something >>>> like >>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) >>> had >>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) >>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote >>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >> Parents >>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>> >>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>> ago, >>>> I >>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>> policy >>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, >>> she >>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >> understand >>>> why >>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids >> in >>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and >>> said >>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I >>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of >>> my >>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>> (smile). >>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little >>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >> are, >>>> in >>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although >>>> asking >>>> why is useful. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>> >>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>> >>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >> graduates" >>>> >>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>> >>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>> >>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>> >>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>> >>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>> understandable terms. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That >>>> >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>> >>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to >>> be >>>> wrong! >>>> >>>>> mike >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Katherine >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>> >>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>> >>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>> >>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>> >>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I >>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>> >>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>> >>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the >>>> >>>>>>> same >>>> >>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>> >>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining >>>> >>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 >>>> hours. >>>> >>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>> >>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary >>>> >>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>> >>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the >>>> >>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>> developed. >>>> >>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >>>> >>>>>>> ways >>>> >>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>> >>>>>> prior experiences. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>> >>>>>>> are >>>> >>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>> >>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't >>>> >>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >> still >>>> >>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>> >>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work >>> with >>>> the others. >>>> >>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands >>>> >>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>> >>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Katie >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>> >>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>>> < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> >>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>> >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Greg >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >> be >>>> >>>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances >> I >>>> >>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >>>> >>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>> >>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >>>> >>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement >>>> >>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>> >>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>> >>>>>>> (and >>>> >>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>> >>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) >>>> >>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>> >>>>>>> includes >>>> >>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>> >>>>>>> school >>>> >>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are >>>> >>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most >>>> >>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>> >>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). >>>> >>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>> >>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>> >>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>> >>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>> >>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>> >>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >>>> >>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>> >>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >> have >>>> >>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>> >>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>> >>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>> >>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>> >>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>> >>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >>>> >>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >> teachers >>>> >>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>> >>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >> 'academic' >>>> >>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>> >>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an >>>> >>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >> is >>>> >>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure >>>> >>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>> >>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean >>>> >>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >> know >>>> >>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >> they >>>> >>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into >>> them >>>> no matter the situation. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>> >>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>> >>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>> >>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>> >>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>> >>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Ed, >>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >> need >>>> >>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >> great >>>> >>>>>>>> things >>>> >>>>>> can >>>> >>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >>>> >>>>>> effort to >>>> >>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a >>>> >>>>>> dent). >>>> >>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>> >>>>>> approach a >>>> >>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>> >>>>>> constraints of >>>> >>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >>>> >>>>>>>> out >>>> >>>>>> what >>>> >>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>> >>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>> >>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and >>>> >>>>>>>> ideological context >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>> >>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>> >>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>> >>>>>> keep >>>> >>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>> >>>>>> appeared]. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>> >>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>> schooling >>>> context. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -greg >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> situation >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the >>>> >>>>>> Japanese >>>> >>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >> annual >>>> >>>>>> hours >>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >> time >>>> >>>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>> >>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>> >>>>>>>>> greatly >>>> >>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >> adolescents >>>> >>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>> >>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary >>>> >>>>>> school >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>> >>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >> more >>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>> an >>>> >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>> >>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>> >>>>>>>>> kind >>>> >>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >>>> >>>>>>>>>> if >>>> >>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>> >>>>>> would >>>> >>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the >>>> U.S. >>>> >>>>>> not >>>> >>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>> >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>> >>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not >>>> valued particularly highly. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >>>> >>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). >>>> >>>>>>>>> That >>>> >>>>>> doesn't >>>> >>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>> powers-that-be. >>>> >>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>> >>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >>>> >>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>> >>>>>> system >>>> >>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>> >>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>> >>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were >>>> >>>>>> happening >>>> >>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >>>> >>>>>> community >>>> >>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>> >>>>>>>>> published >>>> >>>>>> by >>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>> teachers' >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >> which >>>> >>>>>> those >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>> >>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to >>>> >>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >>>> >>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>> teachers are viewed. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>> >>>>>> schooling in >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and >>>> >>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might >>>> >>>>>>>>> also be a >>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>> >>>>>>>>> seen >>>> >>>>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >>>> >>>>>> colleague >>>> >>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >>>> >>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >>>> >>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >>>> >>>>>>>>> getting >>>> >>>>>> steadily >>>> >>>>>>>>> worse. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>> >>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> < >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>> >>>> >>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> version >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>> >>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>> >>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> little >>>> >>>>>> 'new' >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>> is a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>> >>>>>> (I >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >> meetings >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>> >>>>>>>>> sense). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >> stakes >>>> >>>>>> testing >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>> >>>>>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; >>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> college >>>> >>>>>>>>> courses; >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>> >>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>> >>>>>>>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> core >>>> >>>>>> (although >>>> >>>>>>>>> one >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>> >>>>>>>>> than >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core >>>> >>>>>>>>> Standards >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>> >>>>>> on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>> >>>>>> learning >>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> change >>>> >>>>>>>>> (from >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>> >>>>>> consideration >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>> >>>>>> or >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >> on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>> >>>>>> locally >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>> >>>>>> works in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>> >>>>>>>>> might >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>> >>>>>> teaching" >>>> >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >> old >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>> >>>>>>>>> method >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>> >>>>>> push >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>> >>>>>>>>> that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>> >>>>>>>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >> tests >>>> >>>>>> without >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>> >>>>>>>>> know, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >> practicing >>>> >>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>> >>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >> Stink >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>> >>>>>>>>> Math? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>> >>>>>>>>> about >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply >>>> >>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >>>> >>>>>> creative >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From jkindred@cnr.edu Sat Aug 2 09:51:19 2014 From: jkindred@cnr.edu (Kindred, Jessica Dr.) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 16:51:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> , <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math they hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just learning, and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school in general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this is the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well in math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they feel silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. Jessie Kindred ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Colleagues, Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction in our schools: 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my family on the salary". 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and mind of the disenchanted. 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of the basics and the nuances of algebra. 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are preparing to teach in the elementary grades. 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are also lacking. 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. - Roger Breen -----Original Message----- From: Ed Wall To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Greg and all I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I decided to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college because I felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism (smile) or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this workshop I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the problems people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in teacher training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes underwhelmed by us. Ed On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > theoretical Physics. > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I > have also tried to provide examples of > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm > very anxious... > > -greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > >> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >> education. >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his >> professional field. >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >> >> >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett >> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>> >>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way >>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling >> and >>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the >> idea >>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths >>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >> mortals. >>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt >> to >>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but >> how >>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths >>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Helen >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>> Faculty of Education, >>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>> >>> *New Book: * >>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical >>> Approach >>> < >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>> >>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>> >>> >>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Helen, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >> then >>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try >> to >>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >> And >>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied >>> to >>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, >>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master >>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some >>>> "real" purpose. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >> There >>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>> lose. >>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will >>> earn >>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a >>> way >>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >> need >>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I >>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >> lack >>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written >>> as >>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. >>> *The >>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are >>> the >>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >> (Ed.), >>> *The >>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton >>>> University ?Press >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> anna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >> citation >>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also >>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high >>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in >>> her >>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested >> in >>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >> these). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>> before >>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether >> it >>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >> compulsory >>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >> science >>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. >>> Her >>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that >>> she >>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>> science >>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to >>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give >>> her >>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, >>> yet >>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for >>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>> worried >>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In >>> all >>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she >>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close >> or >>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >> Year >>> 11 >>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very >>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>> enough >>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >> reimagined >>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >> students. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My thanks again, >>>> >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>> >>>> Faculty of Education, >>>> >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *New Book: * >>>> >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >> Cultural-Historical >>>> Approach >>>> < >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>> < >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>> >>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are >> we >>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>> >>>> >>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>> >>>> anna >>>> >>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to >>>> participate properly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>> Behalf >>>> Of >>>> Glassman, Michael >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>> this. >>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >> experience >>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something >> you >>>> do >>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics >>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the >>> wall >>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up >> and >>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>> still >>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly >>> for >>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >> there >>> is >>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>> things >>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education >>> in >>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >> the >>>> 20s >>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>> pretty >>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge >> in >>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the >>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once >>> in >>>> a >>>> while. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>> From: >>>> >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on >>>> behalf >>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>> Culture, >>>> >>>> Activity >>>> >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something >>>> like >>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) >>> had >>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) >>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote >>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >> Parents >>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>> >>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>> ago, >>>> I >>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>> policy >>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, >>> she >>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >> understand >>>> why >>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids >> in >>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and >>> said >>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I >>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of >>> my >>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>> (smile). >>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little >>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >> are, >>>> in >>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although >>>> asking >>>> why is useful. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>> >>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>> >>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >> graduates" >>>> >>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>> >>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>> >>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>> >>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>> >>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>> understandable terms. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That >>>> >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>> >>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to >>> be >>>> wrong! >>>> >>>>> mike >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Katherine >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>> >>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>> >>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>> >>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>> >>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I >>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>> >>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>> >>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the >>>> >>>>>>> same >>>> >>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>> >>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining >>>> >>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 >>>> hours. >>>> >>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>> >>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary >>>> >>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>> >>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the >>>> >>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>> developed. >>>> >>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >>>> >>>>>>> ways >>>> >>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>> >>>>>> prior experiences. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>> >>>>>>> are >>>> >>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>> >>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't >>>> >>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >> still >>>> >>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>> >>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work >>> with >>>> the others. >>>> >>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands >>>> >>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>> >>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Katie >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>> >>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >>>>>>> < >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> >>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>> >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Greg >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >> be >>>> >>>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances >> I >>>> >>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >>>> >>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>> >>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >>>> >>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement >>>> >>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>> >>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>> >>>>>>> (and >>>> >>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>> >>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) >>>> >>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>> >>>>>>> includes >>>> >>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>> >>>>>>> school >>>> >>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are >>>> >>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most >>>> >>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>> >>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). >>>> >>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>> >>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>> >>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>> >>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>> >>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>> >>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >>>> >>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>> >>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >> have >>>> >>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>> >>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>> >>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>> >>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>> >>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>> >>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >>>> >>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >> teachers >>>> >>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>> >>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >> 'academic' >>>> >>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>> >>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an >>>> >>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >> is >>>> >>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure >>>> >>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>> >>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean >>>> >>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >> know >>>> >>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >> they >>>> >>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into >>> them >>>> no matter the situation. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>> >>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>> >>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>> >>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>> >>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>> >>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> Ed, >>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >> need >>>> >>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >> great >>>> >>>>>>>> things >>>> >>>>>> can >>>> >>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >>>> >>>>>> effort to >>>> >>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a >>>> >>>>>> dent). >>>> >>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>> >>>>>> approach a >>>> >>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>> >>>>>> constraints of >>>> >>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >>>> >>>>>>>> out >>>> >>>>>> what >>>> >>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>> >>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>> >>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and >>>> >>>>>>>> ideological context >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>> >>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>> >>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>> >>>>>> keep >>>> >>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>> >>>>>> appeared]. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>> >>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>> schooling >>>> context. >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -greg >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu >>>> >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> situation >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the >>>> >>>>>> Japanese >>>> >>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >> annual >>>> >>>>>> hours >>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >> time >>>> >>>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>> >>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>> >>>>>>>>> greatly >>>> >>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >> adolescents >>>> >>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>> >>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary >>>> >>>>>> school >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>> >>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >> more >>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>> an >>>> >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>> >>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>> >>>>>>>>> kind >>>> >>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >>>> >>>>>>>>>> if >>>> >>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>> >>>>>> would >>>> >>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the >>>> U.S. >>>> >>>>>> not >>>> >>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>> >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>> >>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not >>>> valued particularly highly. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >>>> >>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). >>>> >>>>>>>>> That >>>> >>>>>> doesn't >>>> >>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>> powers-that-be. >>>> >>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>> >>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >>>> >>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>> >>>>>> system >>>> >>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>> >>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>> >>>>>> is >>>> >>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were >>>> >>>>>> happening >>>> >>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >>>> >>>>>> community >>>> >>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>> >>>>>>>>> published >>>> >>>>>> by >>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>> teachers' >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >> which >>>> >>>>>> those >>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>> >>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to >>>> >>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >>>> >>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>> teachers are viewed. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>> >>>>>> schooling in >>>> >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and >>>> >>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might >>>> >>>>>>>>> also be a >>>> >>>>>> good >>>> >>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>> >>>>>>>>> seen >>>> >>>>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >>>> >>>>>> colleague >>>> >>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >>>> >>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >>>> >>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >>>> >>>>>>>>> getting >>>> >>>>>> steadily >>>> >>>>>>>>> worse. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>> >>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>> >>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> < >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>> >>>> >>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> version >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>> >>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>> >>>>>> a >>>> >>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> little >>>> >>>>>> 'new' >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>> is a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>> >>>>>> (I >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >> meetings >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>> >>>>>>>>> sense). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >> stakes >>>> >>>>>> testing >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>> >>>>>>>>> there >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; >>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> college >>>> >>>>>>>>> courses; >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>> >>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>> >>>>>>>>> with >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> core >>>> >>>>>> (although >>>> >>>>>>>>> one >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>> >>>>>>>>> than >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core >>>> >>>>>>>>> Standards >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>> >>>>>> on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>> >>>>>> learning >>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> change >>>> >>>>>>>>> (from >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>> >>>>>> consideration >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>> >>>>>> or >>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >> on >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>> >>>>>> locally >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>> >>>>>> works in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>> >>>>>>>>> might >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>> >>>>>> teaching" >>>> >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >> old >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>> >>>>>>>>> method >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>> >>>>>> push >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>> >>>>>>>>> that >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>> >>>>>>>>> will >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >> tests >>>> >>>>>> without >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>> >>>>>>>>> know, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >> practicing >>>> >>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>> >>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >> Stink >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>> >>>>>>>>> Math? >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>> >>>>>>>>> about >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply >>>> >>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >>>> >>>>>> creative >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>> >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> >>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>> >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sat Aug 2 14:09:26 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 17:09:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Jessica, Thanks so much for chiming in here. Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent math content. Robert On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. wrote: > I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several > times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African > American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology > professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on > stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math they > hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. > They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they > learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just learning, > and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to > themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to > believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through > stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school in > general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since > the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the > tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this is > the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past > experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that > showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice > because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well in > math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes > like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope > we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their > memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they feel > silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. > Jessie Kindred > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of > Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > Colleagues, > > > Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction in > our schools: > > > 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked > them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The > schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my family > on the salary". > > > 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take > advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. > > > 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 > years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of > being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and > mind of the disenchanted. > > > 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in > mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop > problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. > > > 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally > ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a > tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. > > > 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their > energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of > the basics and the nuances of algebra. > > > 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or > enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students > spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the > proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. > > > 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are > the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are > preparing to teach in the elementary grades. > > > 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; > isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are also > lacking. > > > 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at > the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get > worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few > exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the > necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. > > > - Roger Breen > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Wall > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > Greg and all > > I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I > decided > to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college > because I > felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism > (smile) > or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this > workshop > I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the > problems > people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in > teacher > training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes > underwhelmed by us. > > Ed > > On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is > somewhere > > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, > creative, > > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > > theoretical Physics. > > > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't > been > > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and > > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set > of > > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile > game > > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I > > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have > > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). > I > > have also tried to provide examples of > > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones > > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it > in > > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and > > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after > > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I > also > > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who > will > > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from > my > > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm > > very anxious... > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > bella.kotik@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. > >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). > >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving > >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with > >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, > that > >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in > addition > >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math > >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without > >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher > >> education. > >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained > him > >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented > person > >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied > and > >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his > >> professional field. > >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. > >> > >> > >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < > helen.grimmett@monash.edu > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > >>> > >>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way > >>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling > >> and > >>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the > >> idea > >>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > >>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths > >>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere > >> mortals. > >>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt > >> to > >>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but > >> how > >>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing > maths > >>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Helen > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dr Helen Grimmett > >>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, > >>> Faculty of Education, > >>> Room G64F, Building 902 > >>> Monash University, Berwick campus > >>> Phone: 9904 7171 > >>> > >>> *New Book: * > >>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > Cultural-Historical > >>> Approach > >>> < > >>> > >> > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > >>>> > >>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> < > >>> > >> > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Helen, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew > >> then > >>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try > >> to > >>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. > >> And > >>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ > >>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she > applied > >>> to > >>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > >>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > >>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > >>>> "real" purpose. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. > >> There > >>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > >>> lose. > >>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will > >>> earn > >>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a > >>> way > >>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real > >> need > >>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > >>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, > I > >>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > >>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, > >> lack > >>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally > written > >>> as > >>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > >>>> Georgia, Athens: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest > editorial. > >>> *The > >>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are > >>> the > >>>> proofs of the chapter): > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici > >> (Ed.), > >>> *The > >>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: > Princeton > >>>> University ?Press > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> anna > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > >> Math? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the > >> citation > >>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > >>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > >>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very > high > >>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > >>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in > >>> her > >>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested > >> in > >>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of > >> these). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > >>> before > >>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether > >> it > >>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > >>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was > >> compulsory > >>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' > >> science > >>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. > >>> Her > >>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now > that > >>> she > >>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > >>> science > >>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead > to > >>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and > give > >>> her > >>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, > >>> yet > >>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > >>>> avenues of study in the future. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > >>> worried > >>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In > >>> all > >>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when > she > >>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close > >> or > >>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into > >> Year > >>> 11 > >>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it > very > >>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > >>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > >>> enough > >>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is > >> reimagined > >>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of > >> students. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> My thanks again, > >>>> > >>>> Helen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett > >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, > >>>> > >>>> Faculty of Education, > >>>> > >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 > >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus > >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> *New Book: * > >>>> > >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > >> Cultural-Historical > >>>> Approach > >>>> < > >>> > >> > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] > >>>> < > >>> > >> > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > >>>> > >>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are > >> we > >>>> teaching mathematics?" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. > >>>> > >>>> anna > >>>> > >>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > >>>> participate properly. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > >>> Behalf > >>>> Of > >>>> Glassman, Michael > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > >>> this. > >>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my > >> experience > >>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something > >> you > >>>> do > >>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards > statistics > >>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the > >>> wall > >>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up > >> and > >>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > >>> still > >>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly > >>> for > >>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But > >> there > >>> is > >>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > >>> things > >>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as > education > >>> in > >>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in > >> the > >>>> 20s > >>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > >>> pretty > >>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge > >> in > >>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > >>>> classroom transferable anyway? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every > once > >>> in > >>>> a > >>>> while. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Michael > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> From: > >>>> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > >>>> behalf > >>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > >>>> > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > >>>> Culture, > >>>> > >>>> Activity > >>>> > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > >>>> like > >>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps > two) > >>> had > >>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully > debated) > >>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a > rote > >>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). > >> Parents > >>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > >>> ago, > >>>> I > >>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > >>> policy > >>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. > Finally, > >>> she > >>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't > >> understand > >>>> why > >>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids > >> in > >>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and > >>> said > >>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > >>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of > >>> my > >>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > >>> (smile). > >>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > >>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they > >> are, > >>>> in > >>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > >>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > >>>> asking > >>>> why is useful. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > >>>> > >>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > >>>> > >>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school > >> graduates" > >>>> > >>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > >>>> > >>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > >>>> > >>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > >>>> > >>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > >>>> > >>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > >>>> understandable terms. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > >>>> > >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > >>>> > >>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to > >>> be > >>>> wrong! > >>>> > >>>>> mike > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > >>>> > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> Katherine > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > >>>> > >>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > >>>> > >>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > >>>> > >>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > >>>> > >>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > >>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. > >>>> > >>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > >>>> > >>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > >>>> > >>>>>>> same > >>>> > >>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > >>>> > >>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > >>>> > >>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > >>>> hours. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > >>>> > >>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > >>>> > >>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > >>> developed. > >>>> > >>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > >>>> > >>>>>>> ways > >>>> > >>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > >>>> > >>>>>> prior experiences. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > >>>> > >>>>>>> are > >>>> > >>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > >>>> > >>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > >>>> > >>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm > >> still > >>>> > >>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > >>>> > >>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work > >>> with > >>>> the others. > >>>> > >>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > >>>> > >>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > >>>> > >>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Katie > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > >>>> > >>>>>>> University of Georgia > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>>>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> > >>>>>>> < > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>> > >>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > >>>> > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Greg > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may > >> be > >>>> > >>>>>>> a > >>>> > >>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances > >> I > >>>> > >>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > >>>> > >>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > >>>> > >>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > >>>> > >>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > >>>> > >>>>>> i(and I meant both!) > >>>> > >>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > >>>> > >>>>>>> (and > >>>> > >>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > >>>> > >>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > >>>> > >>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > >>>> > >>>>>>> includes > >>>> > >>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > >>>> > >>>>>>> school > >>>> > >>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > >>>> > >>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > >>>> > >>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > >>>> > >>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > >>>> > >>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > >>>> > >>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > >>>> > >>>>>> (teachers and pre-service > >>>> > >>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > >>>> > >>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > >>>> > >>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > >>>> > >>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > >>>> > >>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I > >> have > >>>> > >>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > >>>> > >>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > >>>> > >>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > >>>> > >>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > >>>> > >>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > >>>> > >>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > >>>> > >>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary > >> teachers > >>>> > >>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > >>>> > >>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest > >> 'academic' > >>>> > >>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > >>>> > >>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > >>>> > >>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > >>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what > >> is > >>>> > >>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > >>>> > >>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > >>>> > >>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > >>>> > >>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to > >> know > >>>> > >>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, > >> they > >>>> > >>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into > >>> them > >>>> no matter the situation. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > >>>> > >>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > >>>> > >>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > >>>> > >>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > >>>> > >>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > >>>> > >>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Ed, > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the > >> need > >>>> > >>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that > >> great > >>>> > >>>>>>>> things > >>>> > >>>>>> can > >>>> > >>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > >>>> > >>>>>> effort to > >>>> > >>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > >>>> > >>>>>> dent). > >>>> > >>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > >>>> > >>>>>> approach a > >>>> > >>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > >>>> > >>>>>> constraints of > >>>> > >>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > >>>> > >>>>>>>> out > >>>> > >>>>>> what > >>>> > >>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > >>>> > >>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > >>>> > >>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > >>>> > >>>>>>>> ideological context > >>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > >>>> > >>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > >>>> > >>>>>>>> same good ideas > >>>> > >>>>>> keep > >>>> > >>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > >>>> > >>>>>> appeared]. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > >>>> > >>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > >>>> schooling > >>>> context. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Comments below > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> situation > >>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > >>>> > >>>>>> Japanese > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 > >> annual > >>>> > >>>>>> hours > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact > >> time > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> in > >>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> U.S. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> childhood > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> greatly > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from > >> adolescents > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> the cruel > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > >>>> > >>>>>> school > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is > >> more > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>> an > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> enabling the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> kind > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> if > >>>> > >>>>>> there > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teachers > >>>> > >>>>>> would > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > >>>> U.S. > >>>> > >>>>>> not > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, > >>>> > >>>>>> it > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > >>>> valued particularly highly. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> That > >>>> > >>>>>> doesn't > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > >>>> powers-that-be. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> mentoring > >>>> > >>>>>> system > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> anecdotal) > >>>> > >>>>>> is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > >>>> > >>>>>> happening > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > >>>> > >>>>>> community > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> published > >>>> > >>>>>> by > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> teachers. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > >>>> teachers' > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in > >> which > >>>> > >>>>>> those > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > >>>> teachers are viewed. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > >>>> > >>>>>> schooling in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> also be a > >>>> > >>>>>> good > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> seen > >>>> > >>>>>> very > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > >>>> > >>>>>> colleague > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> getting > >>>> > >>>>>> steadily > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> worse. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>> ewall@umich.edu> > >>>> > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> < > >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> g.html?_r=0 > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to > >> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> in the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> version > >>>> > >>>>>> of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> beginning > >>>> > >>>>>> in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> similar as > >>>> > >>>>>> a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> K-12 > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> little > >>>> > >>>>>> 'new' > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> there > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> is a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> doing > >>>> > >>>>>> (I > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between > >> meetings > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> kids making > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> sense). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> being > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high > >> stakes > >>>> > >>>>>> testing > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Japan); > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> there > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> teachers to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> college > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> courses; > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> and more. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> if > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> somewhat > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> has > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> sync > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> with > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> core > >>>> > >>>>>> (although > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> one > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> rather > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> than > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Japan). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Standards > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (from > >>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and > >>>> > >>>>>> very > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus > >>>> > >>>>>> on > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > >>>> > >>>>>> learning > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> change > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> (from > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > >>>> > >>>>>> consideration > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> culture > >>>> > >>>>>> or > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus > >> on > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> what works > >>>> > >>>>>> locally > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> actually > >>>> > >>>>>> works in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> might > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > >>>> > >>>>>> teaching" > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> in > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> their schools. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same > >> old > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> method > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> be a > >>>> > >>>>>> push > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (Except > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> that > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> they > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> will > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes > >> tests > >>>> > >>>>>> without > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> as I > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> know, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a > >> practicing > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> teacher. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > >>>> > >>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans > >> Stink > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> at > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> Math? > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> < > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> about > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> how > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> (un)learnt > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > >>>> > >>>>>> creative > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> > >>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> > >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > From tvmathdude@aol.com Sat Aug 2 19:47:54 2014 From: tvmathdude@aol.com (Tvmathdude) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> Message-ID: <8D17CDC75C26A78-1E08-1DC1B@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> Why must we separate mathematics from expression? My BS in English ay Boston College did not conflict with my MA in mathematics at Columbia University. I fact as a philosophy minor, I was well prepared for the rigors of proof. And my experience with fiction and writing was helpful as I studied Topology in it"s infant stages. Thought is thought. But I am aware of the incredible obstacles presented to the teacher in a public (non-affluent) school system. A former student student related this incident at a local elementary school. "I was called into the principal's office. A teacher in the next room had complained that I was 15 pages behind schedule in mathematics. I stated that 'if I was on schedule, barely half of the class would be succeeding. I am making up for their poor preparation and within two to three weeks, I see us on schedule.' He looked at me and aid, 'Keep up the good work'. That was the last time anyone challenged my work". I fairness to other new teachers, he had run his own business for 15 years and sold it at a profit. The money made paid for his degrees, which he completed in four years. Another of my former students, a reading teacher, shared the reason for her resignation. She awoke on a Friday before school, crying. She realized that this was how she started each day that week. The system and more so her school was totally dysfunctional. Many of the new mathematics faculty applicants at my college come from the public schools. The money is less, but their sanity returns after a few months in the college classroom. When you ask new teachers in the public schools if the mentoring by more experienced teachers helped. Their answer is "What mentoring?" When I ask the principals, "Why no mentoring?" Their answer is simple, "We only have enough funding for a teacher in every classroom teaching". An example of a system run amuck: The state provided extra funding for students in AP classes. So the system placed many more students in AP courses. Many were unprepared and failed. Not all of the teachers given these classes were trained or had the needed experience. Those who were well equipped to teach AP had a room of students where half could not do the work. Not a recipe for success. If the problem was just mathematics, we may be able to create and test several strategies. With the current the effort in many states to reduce funding to public schools, in favor of charter schools, the problem will only get worse. Any hope? Absolutely. We need many more educators and teachers like those I have been reading these last months. And with the improving economy, legislatures may find more money to give our public schools. - Roger -fgh----Original Message----- From: Greg Thompson To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:18 am Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in theoretical Physics. Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I have also tried to provide examples of science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm very anxious... -greg On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. > Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). > He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving > different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with > math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that > his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition > "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math > capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without > matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher > education. > Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him > that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person > is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and > successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his > professional field. > So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett > > wrote: > > > Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > > > > I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way > > home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling > and > > they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the > idea > > at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > > Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths > > educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere > mortals. > > I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt > to > > play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but > how > > interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths > > that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > > > > Cheers, > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > Faculty of Education, > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > *New Book: * > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > > Approach > > < > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > < > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > > > > > Hi Helen, > > > > > > > > > > > > My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew > then > > > that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try > to > > > dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. > And > > > see what happened: design does require some technical/ > > > scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied > > to > > > the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > > > considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > > > whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > > > "real" purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. > There > > > is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > > lose. > > > I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will > > earn > > > a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a > > way > > > among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real > need > > > for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > > > different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I > > > think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > > > losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, > lack > > > of self-confidence, etc, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written > > as > > > guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > > > Georgia, Athens: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. > > *The > > > Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are > > the > > > proofs of the chapter): > > > > > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici > (Ed.), > > *The > > > best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton > > > University ?Press > > > > > > > > > > > > anna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > > > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > > > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > > > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > Math? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the > citation > > > for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > > > provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > > > discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high > > > achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > > > science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in > > her > > > selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested > in > > > subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of > these). > > > > > > > > > > > > I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > > before > > > and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether > it > > > would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > > > subject. In her early secondary school years when science was > compulsory > > > she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' > science > > > would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. > > Her > > > stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that > > she > > > doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > > science > > > homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to > > > another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give > > her > > > more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, > > yet > > > I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > > > avenues of study in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > > worried > > > about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In > > all > > > honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she > > > says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close > or > > > with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into > Year > > 11 > > > and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very > > > transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > > > argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > > enough > > > to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is > reimagined > > > in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of > students. > > > > > > > > > > > > My thanks again, > > > > > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > > > > > Faculty of Education, > > > > > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > > > > > > > > > *New Book: * > > > > > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > Cultural-Historical > > > Approach > > > < > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > < > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > > > > > > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are > we > > > teaching mathematics?" > > > > > > > > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > > > > > anna > > > > > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > > > participate properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > > Behalf > > > Of > > > Glassman, Michael > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > > this. > > > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my > experience > > > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something > you > > > do > > > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics > > > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the > > wall > > > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up > and > > > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > > still > > > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly > > for > > > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But > there > > is > > > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > > things > > > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education > > in > > > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in > the > > > 20s > > > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > > pretty > > > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge > in > > > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > > > classroom transferable anyway? > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once > > in > > > a > > > while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > > > From: > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > > > behalf > > > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > > > Culture, > > > > > > Activity > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > > > > > > > > > > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something > > > like > > > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) > > had > > > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) > > > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote > > > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). > Parents > > > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > > > > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > > ago, > > > I > > > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > > policy > > > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, > > she > > > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't > understand > > > why > > > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids > in > > > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and > > said > > > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > > > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of > > my > > > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > > (smile). > > > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > > > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they > are, > > > in > > > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > > > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > > > asking > > > why is useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > > > > > > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > > > > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school > graduates" > > > > > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > > > > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > > > > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > > > > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > > > > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > > > understandable terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That > > > > > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > > > > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to > > be > > > wrong! > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Katherine > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > > > > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > > > > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > > > > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > > > > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I > > > don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > > > > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Ed > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > > > > > > wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the > > > > > > >>> same > > > > > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > > > > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining > > > > > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 > > > hours. > > > > > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > > > > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary > > > > > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > > > > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the > > > > > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > > developed. > > > > > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > > > > > > >>> ways > > > > > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > > > > > >> prior experiences. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > > > > > >>> are > > > > > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > > > > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't > > > > > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm > still > > > > > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > > > > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work > > with > > > the others. > > > > > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands > > > > > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > > > > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Katie > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > > > >>> University of Georgia > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > >>> From: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > >>> < > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > > > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Greg > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may > be > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances > I > > > > > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > > > > > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > > > > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > > > > > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement > > > > > > >> i(and I meant both!) > > > > > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > > > > > >>> (and > > > > > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > > > > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) > > > > > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > > > > > >>> includes > > > > > > >> (mis)understandings!!) > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > > > > > >>> school > > > > > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are > > > > > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most > > > > > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > > > > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). > > > > > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > > > > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > > > > > >> (teachers and pre-service > > > > > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > > > > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > > > > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > > > > > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > > > > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I > have > > > > > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > > > > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > > > > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > > > > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > > > > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > > > > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > > > > > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary > teachers > > > > > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > > > > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest > 'academic' > > > > > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > > > > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an > > > > > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > > > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what > is > > > > > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure > > > > > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > > > > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean > > > > > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to > know > > > > > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, > they > > > > > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into > > them > > > no matter the situation. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > > > > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > > > > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > > > > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > > > > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > > > > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Ed > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> Ed, > > > > > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the > need > > > > > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that > great > > > > > > >>>> things > > > > > > >> can > > > > > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > > > > > > >> effort to > > > > > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a > > > > > > >> dent). > > > > > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > > > > > >> approach a > > > > > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > > > > > >> constraints of > > > > > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > > > > > > >>>> out > > > > > > >> what > > > > > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > > > > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > > > > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and > > > > > > >>>> ideological context > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > > > > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > > > > > >>>> same good ideas > > > > > > >> keep > > > > > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > > > > > >> appeared]. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > > > > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > > > schooling > > > context. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -greg > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu > > > > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Comments below > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > > > > > >>>>>> situation > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the > > > > > > >> Japanese > > > > > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 > annual > > > > > > >> hours > > > > > > >>>>> of > > > > > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact > time > > > > > > >>>>>> in > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >>>>>> U.S. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > > > > > >>>>>> childhood > > > > > > >>>>> greatly > > > > > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from > adolescents > > > > > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from > > > > > > >>>>>> the cruel > > > > > > >>>>> and > > > > > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary > > > > > > >> school > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > > > > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is > more > > > > > > >>>>>> of > > > > > > >> an > > > > > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > > > > > >>>>>> enabling the > > > > > > >>>>> kind > > > > > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > > > > > > >>>>>> if > > > > > > >> there > > > > > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers > > > > > > >> would > > > > > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the > > > U.S. > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > > > > > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > > > > > >>>>>> exceptions, > > > > > > >> it > > > > > > >>>>> is > > > > > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > > > > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > > > > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > > > valued particularly highly. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > > > > > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). > > > > > > >>>>> That > > > > > > >> doesn't > > > > > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > > > powers-that-be. > > > > > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > > > > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > > > > > > >>>>> mentoring > > > > > > >> system > > > > > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > > > > > >>>>> anecdotal) > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were > > > > > > >> happening > > > > > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > > > > > > >> community > > > > > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > > > > > >>>>> published > > > > > > >> by > > > > > > >>>>> teachers. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > > > teachers' > > > > > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in > which > > > > > > >> those > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > > > > > >>>>>> more difficult still. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to > > > > > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > > > > > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > > > teachers are viewed. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > > > > > >> schooling in > > > > > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > > > > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and > > > > > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might > > > > > > >>>>> also be a > > > > > > >> good > > > > > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > > > > > >>>>> seen > > > > > > >> very > > > > > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > > > > > > >> colleague > > > > > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > > > > > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > > > > > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > > > > > > >>>>> getting > > > > > > >> steadily > > > > > > >>>>> worse. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > > > > > >>>>>> -greg > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > > > > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Ed > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >> < > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > > > >> g.html?_r=0 > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to > the > > > > > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > > > > > > >>>>>>>> in the > > > > > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > > > > > >>>>>>> version > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > > > > > >>>>>>> beginning > > > > > > >> in > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > > > > > >>>>>>> similar as > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > >>>>> K-12 > > > > > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > > > > > >>>>>>> little > > > > > > >> 'new' > > > > > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, > > > > > > >>>>>>> there > > > > > > >>>>> is a > > > > > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > > > > > > >>>>>>> doing > > > > > > >> (I > > > > > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between > meetings > > > > > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > > > > > >>>>>>> kids making > > > > > > >>>>> sense). > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is > > > > > > >>>>>>>> being > > > > > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high > stakes > > > > > > >> testing > > > > > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > > > > > >>>>>>> Japan); > > > > > > >>>>> there > > > > > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; > > > > > > >>>>> teachers to > > > > > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > > > > > >>>>>>> college > > > > > > >>>>> courses; > > > > > > >>>>>>> and more. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > > > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > > > > > > >>>>>>> if > > > > > > >>>>> somewhat > > > > > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > > > > > >>>>>>>> has > > > > > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in > > > > > > >>>>>>> sync > > > > > > >>>>> with > > > > > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > > > > > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > > > > > >>>>>>> core > > > > > > >> (although > > > > > > >>>>> one > > > > > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > > > > > >>>>>>> rather > > > > > > >>>>> than > > > > > > >>>>>>> Japan). > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > > > > > >>>>>>>> teacher > > > > > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core > > > > > > >>>>> Standards > > > > > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > > > > > > >>>>>>> (from > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations > > > > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > > > > > > >>>>>>>> and > > > > > > >> very > > > > > > >>>>>>> complex problem. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Ed > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > > > > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> focus > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > > > > > >> learning > > > > > > >>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > > > > > > >>>>>>> change > > > > > > >>>>> (from > > > > > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > > > > > >> consideration > > > > > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > > > > > >>>>>>> culture > > > > > > >> or > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > > > > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus > on > > > > > > >>>>>>> what works > > > > > > >> locally > > > > > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might > > > > > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > > > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > > > > >> works in > > > > > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > > > > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it > > > > > > >>>>> might > > > > > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > > > > > >> teaching" > > > > > > >>>>> in > > > > > > >>>>>>> their schools. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning > > > > > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same > old > > > > > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > > > > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > > > > > >>>>> method > > > > > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > > > > > > >>>>>>> be a > > > > > > >> push > > > > > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > > > > > >>>>>>> (Except > > > > > > >>>>> that > > > > > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, > > > > > > >>>>>>> they > > > > > > >>>>> will > > > > > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes > tests > > > > > > >> without > > > > > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far > > > > > > >>>>>>> as I > > > > > > >>>>> know, > > > > > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a > practicing > > > > > > >>>>> teacher. > > > > > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > > > > >>>>> > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > > > > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans > Stink > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> at > > > > > > >>>>> Math? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> [...] > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> idea > > > > > > >>>>> about > > > > > > >>>>>>> how > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply > > > > > > >>>>> (un)learnt > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > > > > > > >> creative > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Best, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Huw > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > > > > > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > > > > > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Aug 2 21:59:19 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:59:19 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Yes, Jessica, I second Robert's suggestion about writing something about your "Dear Math" project! The students' responses could be very useful for others to better understand the kinds of experiences that your students are facing. Perhaps there is a way of anonymizing the data and then presenting it in some way so that their voices can be heard. Wondering if maybe you could share with us some of the memories that they write? Steele's work points nicely to the problem but it doesn't tell us much about the way cultural, historical, and interactional contexts contributed to things being the way they are. I think that this is where a SCT/CHAT or whatever-you-want-to-call-it approach can be very helpful in exploring the "air" in which a "threat" comes into being for a certain group of people (for those unfamiliar with Claude Steele's work, he refers to stereotype threat as a "threat in the air" which detrimentally affects the academic performance of stigmatized students. Here is a useful website about stereotype threat: http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/definition.html) Best, -greg On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi Jessica, > Thanks so much for chiming in here. > Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? > I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the > kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students > when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent > math content. > Robert > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. > wrote: > > > I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several > > times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African > > American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology > > professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on > > stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math > they > > hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. > > They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they > > learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just > learning, > > and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to > > themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to > > believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through > > stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school > in > > general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since > > the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the > > tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this > is > > the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past > > experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that > > showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice > > because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well > in > > math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes > > like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope > > we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their > > memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they > feel > > silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. > > Jessie Kindred > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of > > Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > Colleagues, > > > > > > Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction > in > > our schools: > > > > > > 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked > > them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The > > schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my > family > > on the salary". > > > > > > 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take > > advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. > > > > > > 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 > > years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of > > being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and > > mind of the disenchanted. > > > > > > 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in > > mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop > > problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. > > > > > > 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally > > ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a > > tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. > > > > > > 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their > > energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of > > the basics and the nuances of algebra. > > > > > > 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or > > enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students > > spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the > > proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. > > > > > > 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are > > the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are > > preparing to teach in the elementary grades. > > > > > > 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; > > isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are > also > > lacking. > > > > > > 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at > > the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get > > worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few > > exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the > > necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. > > > > > > - Roger Breen > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ed Wall > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > Greg and all > > > > I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I > > decided > > to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college > > because I > > felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism > > (smile) > > or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this > > workshop > > I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the > > problems > > people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in > > teacher > > training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes > > underwhelmed by us. > > > > Ed > > > > On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > > > > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > > > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > > > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is > > somewhere > > > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, > > creative, > > > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > > > theoretical Physics. > > > > > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't > > been > > > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > > > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > > > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad > and > > > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a > set > > of > > > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > > > > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile > > game > > > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > > > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much > longer I > > > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > > > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > > > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I > have > > > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > > > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his > life...). > > I > > > have also tried to provide examples of > > > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > > > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of > pheromones > > > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > > > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell > it > > in > > > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few > and > > > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day > after > > > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I > > also > > > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who > > will > > > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > > > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from > > my > > > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now > I'm > > > very anxious... > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > > bella.kotik@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my > M.A. > > >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). > > >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving > > >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with > > >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, > > that > > >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in > > addition > > >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math > > >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without > > >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher > > >> education. > > >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who > explained > > him > > >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented > > person > > >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied > > and > > >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education > his > > >> professional field. > > >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. > > >> > > >> > > >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > >> > > >> > > >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < > > helen.grimmett@monash.edu > > >>> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > > >>> > > >>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the > way > > >>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story > telling > > >> and > > >>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned > the > > >> idea > > >>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > > >>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted > maths > > >>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere > > >> mortals. > > >>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've > learnt > > >> to > > >>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) > but > > >> how > > >>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing > > maths > > >>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > > >>> > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> Helen > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Dr Helen Grimmett > > >>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > >>> Faculty of Education, > > >>> Room G64F, Building 902 > > >>> Monash University, Berwick campus > > >>> Phone: 9904 7171 > > >>> > > >>> *New Book: * > > >>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > > Cultural-Historical > > >>> Approach > > >>> < > > >>> > > >> > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > >>>> > > >>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> < > > >>> > > >> > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi Helen, > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew > > >> then > > >>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not > try > > >> to > > >>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. > > >> And > > >>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ > > >>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she > > applied > > >>> to > > >>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed > sufficient, > > >>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to > master > > >>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for > some > > >>>> "real" purpose. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. > > >> There > > >>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > > >>> lose. > > >>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she > will > > >>> earn > > >>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may > find a > > >>> way > > >>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real > > >> need > > >>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > > >>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any > case, > > I > > >>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > > >>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, > > >> lack > > >>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally > > written > > >>> as > > >>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > > >>>> Georgia, Athens: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest > > editorial. > > >>> *The > > >>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent > are > > >>> the > > >>>> proofs of the chapter): > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici > > >> (Ed.), > > >>> *The > > >>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: > > Princeton > > >>>> University ?Press > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> anna > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > > >>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > > >>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > > >> Math? > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the > > >> citation > > >>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it > also > > >>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > > >>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very > > high > > >>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > > >>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize > in > > >>> her > > >>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only > interested > > >> in > > >>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of > > >> these). > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > > >>> before > > >>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths > whether > > >> it > > >>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > > >>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was > > >> compulsory > > >>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' > > >> science > > >>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was > intolerable. > > >>> Her > > >>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now > > that > > >>> she > > >>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > > >>> science > > >>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead > > to > > >>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and > > give > > >>> her > > >>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate > her, > > >>> yet > > >>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors > for > > >>>> avenues of study in the future. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > > >>> worried > > >>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. > In > > >>> all > > >>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when > > she > > >>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might > close > > >> or > > >>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into > > >> Year > > >>> 11 > > >>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it > > very > > >>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > > >>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > > >>> enough > > >>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is > > >> reimagined > > >>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of > > >> students. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> My thanks again, > > >>>> > > >>>> Helen > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett > > >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > >>>> > > >>>> Faculty of Education, > > >>>> > > >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 > > >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus > > >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> *New Book: * > > >>>> > > >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > > >> Cultural-Historical > > >>>> Approach > > >>>> < > > >>> > > >> > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] > > >>>> < > > >>> > > >> > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why > are > > >> we > > >>>> teaching mathematics?" > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > >>>> > > >>>> anna > > >>>> > > >>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself > to > > >>>> participate properly. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > > >>> Behalf > > >>>> Of > > >>>> Glassman, Michael > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > > >>> this. > > >>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my > > >> experience > > >>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just > something > > >> you > > >>>> do > > >>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards > > statistics > > >>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against > the > > >>> wall > > >>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand > up > > >> and > > >>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > > >>> still > > >>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up > mostly > > >>> for > > >>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But > > >> there > > >>> is > > >>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > > >>> things > > >>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as > > education > > >>> in > > >>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in > > >> the > > >>>> 20s > > >>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > > >>> pretty > > >>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics > emerge > > >> in > > >>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in > the > > >>>> classroom transferable anyway? > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every > > once > > >>> in > > >>>> a > > >>>> while. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Michael > > >>>> > > >>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>> > > >>>> From: > > >>>> > > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on > > >>>> behalf > > >>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > >>>> > > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > > >>>> Culture, > > >>>> > > >>>> Activity > > >>>> > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Mike > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, > something > > >>>> like > > >>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps > > two) > > >>> had > > >>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully > > debated) > > >>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a > > rote > > >>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). > > >> Parents > > >>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > >>>> > > >>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > > >>> ago, > > >>>> I > > >>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > > >>> policy > > >>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. > > Finally, > > >>> she > > >>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't > > >> understand > > >>>> why > > >>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the > kids > > >> in > > >>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her > and > > >>> said > > >>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as > if I > > >>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One > of > > >>> my > > >>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > > >>> (smile). > > >>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have > little > > >>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they > > >> are, > > >>>> in > > >>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > > >>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum > although > > >>>> asking > > >>>> why is useful. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Ed > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < lchcmike@gmail.com> > > >>>> > > >>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > >>>> > > >>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school > > >> graduates" > > >>>> > > >>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > >>>> > > >>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > >>>> > > >>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > >>>> > > >>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > >>>> > > >>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > > >>>> understandable terms. > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. > That > > >>>> > > >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > >>>> > > >>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be > to > > >>> be > > >>>> wrong! > > >>>> > > >>>>> mike > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > >>>> > > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> Katherine > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > >>>> > > >>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > >>>> > > >>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > >>>> > > >>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > >>>> > > >>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike > Carol, I > > >>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > >>>> > > >>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> Ed > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > > >>>> > > >>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of > the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> same > > >>>> > > >>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > >>>> > > >>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of > sustaining > > >>>> > > >>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching > 1,100 > > >>>> hours. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, > elementary > > >>>> > > >>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, > the > > >>>> > > >>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > > >>> developed. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to > new > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> ways > > >>>> > > >>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > >>>> > > >>>>>> prior experiences. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> are > > >>>> > > >>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > >>>> > > >>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" > isn't > > >>>> > > >>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm > > >> still > > >>>> > > >>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > >>>> > > >>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to > work > > >>> with > > >>>> the others. > > >>>> > > >>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple > strands > > >>>> > > >>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > >>>> > > >>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Katie > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> University of Georgia > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> From: > > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> < > > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > Math? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Greg > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may > > >> be > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> a > > >>>> > > >>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many > instances > > >> I > > >>>> > > >>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. > I > > >>>> > > >>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > >>>> > > >>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and > pre-service > > >>>> > > >>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher > engagement > > >>>> > > >>>>>> i(and I meant both!) > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> (and > > >>>> > > >>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > >>>> > > >>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious > computations) > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> includes > > >>>> > > >>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> school > > >>>> > > >>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments > are > > >>>> > > >>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult > (most > > >>>> > > >>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > >>>> > > >>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the > possibility). > > >>>> > > >>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > >>>> > > >>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > >>>> > > >>>>>> (teachers and pre-service > > >>>> > > >>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > >>>> > > >>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > >>>> > > >>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be > sustained > > >>>> > > >>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > >>>> > > >>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I > > >> have > > >>>> > > >>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > >>>> > > >>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > >>>> > > >>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > >>>> > > >>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > >>>> > > >>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > >>>> > > >>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where > that > > >>>> > > >>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary > > >> teachers > > >>>> > > >>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > >>>> > > >>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest > > >> 'academic' > > >>>> > > >>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > >>>> > > >>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen > an > > >>>> > > >>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > > >>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what > > >> is > > >>>> > > >>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to > figure > > >>>> > > >>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > >>>> > > >>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it > mean > > >>>> > > >>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to > > >> know > > >>>> > > >>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, > > >> they > > >>>> > > >>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow > into > > >>> them > > >>>> no matter the situation. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > >>>> > > >>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > >>>> > > >>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > >>>> > > >>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > >>>> > > >>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > >>>> > > >>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> Ed > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Ed, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the > > >> need > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that > > >> great > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> things > > >>>> > > >>>>>> can > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes > great > > >>>> > > >>>>>> effort to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more > than a > > >>>> > > >>>>>> dent). > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > >>>> > > >>>>>> approach a > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > >>>> > > >>>>>> constraints of > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and > figure > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> out > > >>>> > > >>>>>> what > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, > and > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> ideological context > > >>>> > > >>>>>> of > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> same good ideas > > >>>> > > >>>>>> keep > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > >>>> > > >>>>>> appeared]. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > > >>>> schooling > > >>>> context. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> -greg > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > >> ewall@umich.edu > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Comments below > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> situation > > >>>> > > >>>>>> of > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about > the > > >>>> > > >>>>>> Japanese > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 > > >> annual > > >>>> > > >>>>>> hours > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> of > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact > > >> time > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> in > > >>>> > > >>>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> U.S. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Yes > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> childhood > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> greatly > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from > > >> adolescents > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected > from > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> the cruel > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> and > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that > elementary > > >>>> > > >>>>>> school > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is > > >> more > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>> > > >>>>>> an > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> enabling the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> kind > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that > even > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> if > > >>>> > > >>>>>> there > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> teachers > > >>>> > > >>>>>> would > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in > the > > >>>> U.S. > > >>>> > > >>>>>> not > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in > the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, > > >>>> > > >>>>>> it > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> is > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is > not > > >>>> valued particularly highly. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in > highly > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word > 'rare'). > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> That > > >>>> > > >>>>>> doesn't > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > > >>>> powers-that-be. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably > effective > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> mentoring > > >>>> > > >>>>>> system > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> anecdotal) > > >>>> > > >>>>>> is > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things > were > > >>>> > > >>>>>> happening > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate > Japanese > > >>>> > > >>>>>> community > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> published > > >>>> > > >>>>>> by > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> teachers. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > > >>>> teachers' > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in > > >> which > > >>>> > > >>>>>> those > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem > to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of > this > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > > >>>> teachers are viewed. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > >>>> > > >>>>>> schooling in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent > and > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it > might > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> also be a > > >>>> > > >>>>>> good > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> seen > > >>>> > > >>>>>> very > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to > a > > >>>> > > >>>>>> colleague > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit > to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed > by > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It > is > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> getting > > >>>> > > >>>>>> steadily > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> worse. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> -greg > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Ed > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > >>> ewall@umich.edu> > > >>>> > > >>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> < > > >>> > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> g.html?_r=0 > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to > > >> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan > State > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> in the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> version > > >>>> > > >>>>>> of > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> beginning > > >>>> > > >>>>>> in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> similar as > > >>>> > > >>>>>> a > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> K-12 > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> little > > >>>> > > >>>>>> 'new' > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. > However, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> there > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> is a > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they > are > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> doing > > >>>> > > >>>>>> (I > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between > > >> meetings > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> kids making > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> sense). > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it > is > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> being > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high > > >> stakes > > >>>> > > >>>>>> testing > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Japan); > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> there > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of > topics; > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> teachers to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> college > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> courses; > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> and more. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, > even > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> if > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> somewhat > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> has > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is > in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> sync > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> with > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. > Lesson > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> core > > >>>> > > >>>>>> (although > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> one > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> rather > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> than > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Japan). > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common > Core > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Standards > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" > What > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> (from > > >>>> > > >>>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of > operations > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very > large > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and > > >>>> > > >>>>>> very > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack > of > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus > > >>>> > > >>>>>> on > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > >>>> > > >>>>>> learning > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about > such > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> change > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> (from > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > >>>> > > >>>>>> consideration > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> culture > > >>>> > > >>>>>> or > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus > > >> on > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> what works > > >>>> > > >>>>>> locally > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) > might > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> actually > > >>>> > > >>>>>> works in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> might > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > >>>> > > >>>>>> teaching" > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> in > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> their schools. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same > > >> old > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> method > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem > to > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> be a > > >>>> > > >>>>>> push > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> (Except > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> that > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned > tests, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> they > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> will > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes > > >> tests > > >>>> > > >>>>>> without > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as > far > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> as I > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> know, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a > > >> practicing > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> teacher. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: > > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > > >>>> > > >>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans > > >> Stink > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> at > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Math? > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had > no > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> about > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> how > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than > simply > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> (un)learnt > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the > student's > > >>>> > > >>>>>> creative > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From cconnery@ithaca.edu Sun Aug 3 06:24:43 2014 From: cconnery@ithaca.edu (Cathrene Connery) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 13:24:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> , Message-ID: Good morning! Those of you involved in this discussion would be very interested in Vera John Steiner and Reuben Hersh's book called Loving and Hating Mathematics. The authors use Vygotskian theory as a lens for their insights into the cultural-historical and pedagogical aspects of appropriating mathematics as a semiotic tool kit as well as the perezhivaija of mathematicians as expert learner-thinkers who have shaped the discipline. It is also a rich, elegant, and provoking read. All the best, Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Aug 3, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Greg Thompson" wrote: > Yes, Jessica, I second Robert's suggestion about writing something about > your "Dear Math" project! > > The students' responses could be very useful for others to better > understand the kinds of experiences that your students are facing. Perhaps > there is a way of anonymizing the data and then presenting it in some way > so that their voices can be heard. > > Wondering if maybe you could share with us some of the memories that they > write? > > Steele's work points nicely to the problem but it doesn't tell us much > about the way cultural, historical, and interactional contexts contributed > to things being the way they are. I think that this is where a SCT/CHAT or > whatever-you-want-to-call-it approach can be very helpful in exploring the > "air" in which a "threat" comes into being for a certain group of people > (for those unfamiliar with Claude Steele's work, he refers to stereotype > threat as a "threat in the air" which detrimentally affects the academic > performance of stigmatized students. Here is a useful website about > stereotype threat: http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/definition.html) > > Best, > -greg > > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > >> Hi Jessica, >> Thanks so much for chiming in here. >> Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? >> I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the >> kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students >> when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent >> math content. >> Robert >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. >> wrote: >> >>> I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several >>> times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African >>> American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology >>> professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on >>> stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math >> they >>> hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. >>> They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they >>> learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just >> learning, >>> and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to >>> themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to >>> believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through >>> stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school >> in >>> general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since >>> the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the >>> tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this >> is >>> the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past >>> experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that >>> showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice >>> because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well >> in >>> math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes >>> like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope >>> we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their >>> memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they >> feel >>> silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. >>> Jessie Kindred >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of >>> Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] >>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction >> in >>> our schools: >>> >>> >>> 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked >>> them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The >>> schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my >> family >>> on the salary". >>> >>> >>> 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take >>> advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. >>> >>> >>> 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 >>> years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of >>> being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and >>> mind of the disenchanted. >>> >>> >>> 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in >>> mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop >>> problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. >>> >>> >>> 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally >>> ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a >>> tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. >>> >>> >>> 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their >>> energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of >>> the basics and the nuances of algebra. >>> >>> >>> 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or >>> enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students >>> spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the >>> proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. >>> >>> >>> 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are >>> the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are >>> preparing to teach in the elementary grades. >>> >>> >>> 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; >>> isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are >> also >>> lacking. >>> >>> >>> 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at >>> the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get >>> worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few >>> exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the >>> necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. >>> >>> >>> - Roger Breen >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ed Wall >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> >>> Greg and all >>> >>> I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I >>> decided >>> to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college >>> because I >>> felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism >>> (smile) >>> or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this >>> workshop >>> I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the >>> problems >>> people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in >>> teacher >>> training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes >>> underwhelmed by us. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >>>> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >>>> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is >>> somewhere >>>> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, >>> creative, >>>> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >>>> theoretical Physics. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't >>> been >>>> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >>>> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >>>> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad >> and >>>> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a >> set >>> of >>>> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >>>> >>>> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile >>> game >>>> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >>>> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much >> longer I >>>> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >>>> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are >>>> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I >> have >>>> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >>>> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his >> life...). >>> I >>>> have also tried to provide examples of >>>> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a >>>> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of >> pheromones >>>> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >>>> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell >> it >>> in >>>> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few >> and >>>> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day >> after >>>> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I >>> also >>>> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who >>> will >>>> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as >>>> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from >>> my >>>> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now >> I'm >>>> very anxious... >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>> bella.kotik@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my >> M.A. >>>>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>>>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>>>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >>>>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, >>> that >>>>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in >>> addition >>>>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>>>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>>>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>>>> education. >>>>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who >> explained >>> him >>>>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented >>> person >>>>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied >>> and >>>>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education >> his >>>>> professional field. >>>>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < >>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the >> way >>>>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story >> telling >>>>> and >>>>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned >> the >>>>> idea >>>>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>>>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted >> maths >>>>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>>>> mortals. >>>>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've >> learnt >>>>> to >>>>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) >> but >>>>> how >>>>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing >>> maths >>>>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Helen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>> >>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>> Approach >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>>>> then >>>>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not >> try >>>>> to >>>>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>>>> And >>>>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she >>> applied >>>>>> to >>>>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed >> sufficient, >>>>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to >> master >>>>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for >> some >>>>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>>>> There >>>>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>>>> lose. >>>>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she >> will >>>>>> earn >>>>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may >> find a >>>>>> way >>>>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >>>>> need >>>>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any >> case, >>> I >>>>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >>>>> lack >>>>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally >>> written >>>>>> as >>>>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest >>> editorial. >>>>>> *The >>>>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent >> are >>>>>> the >>>>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>>>> (Ed.), >>>>>> *The >>>>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: >>> Princeton >>>>>>> University ?Press >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> anna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>>>> citation >>>>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it >> also >>>>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very >>> high >>>>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize >> in >>>>>> her >>>>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only >> interested >>>>> in >>>>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>>>> these). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>>>> before >>>>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths >> whether >>>>> it >>>>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>>>> compulsory >>>>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>>>> science >>>>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was >> intolerable. >>>>>> Her >>>>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now >>> that >>>>>> she >>>>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>>>> science >>>>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead >>> to >>>>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and >>> give >>>>>> her >>>>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate >> her, >>>>>> yet >>>>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors >> for >>>>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>>>> worried >>>>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. >> In >>>>>> all >>>>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when >>> she >>>>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might >> close >>>>> or >>>>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>>>> Year >>>>>> 11 >>>>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it >>> very >>>>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>>>> reimagined >>>>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>>>> students. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My thanks again, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>>> Approach >>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why >> are >>>>> we >>>>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> anna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself >> to >>>>>>> participate properly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of >>>>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>>>>> this. >>>>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>>>> experience >>>>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just >> something >>>>> you >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards >>> statistics >>>>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against >> the >>>>>> wall >>>>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand >> up >>>>> and >>>>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>>>> still >>>>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up >> mostly >>>>>> for >>>>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>>>> there >>>>>> is >>>>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>>>> things >>>>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as >>> education >>>>>> in >>>>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >>>>> the >>>>>>> 20s >>>>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>>>>> pretty >>>>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics >> emerge >>>>> in >>>>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in >> the >>>>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every >>> once >>>>>> in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> while. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on >>>>>>> behalf >>>>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>>>>> Culture, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, >> something >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps >>> two) >>>>>> had >>>>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully >>> debated) >>>>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a >>> rote >>>>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>>>> Parents >>>>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>>>> ago, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>>>> policy >>>>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. >>> Finally, >>>>>> she >>>>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>>>> understand >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the >> kids >>>>> in >>>>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her >> and >>>>>> said >>>>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as >> if I >>>>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One >> of >>>>>> my >>>>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>>>> (smile). >>>>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have >> little >>>>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>>>> are, >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum >> although >>>>>>> asking >>>>>>> why is useful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > lchcmike@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >>>>> graduates" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>>>>> understandable terms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. >> That >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be >> to >>>>>> be >>>>>>> wrong! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Katherine >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike >> Carol, I >>>>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of >> sustaining >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching >> 1,100 >>>>>>> hours. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, >> elementary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>>>>> developed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to >> new >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> prior experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" >> isn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >>>>> still >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to >> work >>>>>> with >>>>>>> the others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple >> strands >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many >> instances >>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. >> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and >> pre-service >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher >> engagement >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious >> computations) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments >> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult >> (most >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the >> possibility). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be >> sustained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where >> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >>>>> teachers >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >>>>> 'academic' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen >> an >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>>>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to >> figure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it >> mean >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >>>>> know >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow >> into >>>>>> them >>>>>>> no matter the situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >>>>> need >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >>>>> great >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes >> great >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> effort to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more >> than a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> dent). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> approach a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> constraints of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and >> figure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, >> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ideological context >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> keep >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> appeared]. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>>>>> schooling >>>>>>> context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >>>> ewall@umich.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >>>>> annual >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hours >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >>>>> time >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> greatly >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >>>>> adolescents >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected >> from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that >> elementary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >>>>> more >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that >> even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in >> the >>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is >> not >>>>>>> valued particularly highly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in >> highly >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word >> 'rare'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>>>>> powers-that-be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably >> effective >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things >> were >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> happening >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate >> Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> published >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>>>>> teachers' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of >> this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>>>>> teachers are viewed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> schooling in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent >> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it >> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> also be a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to >> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> colleague >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed >> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It >> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> steadily >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> worse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> < >>>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan >> State >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'new' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. >> However, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they >> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >>>>> meetings >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sense). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it >> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >>>>> stakes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of >> topics; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> courses; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, >> even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is >> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. >> Lesson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (although >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common >> Core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Standards >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" >> What >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of >> operations >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very >> large >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack >> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about >> such >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> consideration >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> locally >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) >> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> works in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teaching" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >>>>> old >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> method >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> push >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned >> tests, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >>>>> tests >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as >> far >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> know, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >>>>> practicing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >>>>> Stink >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had >> no >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than >> simply >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the >> student's >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 3 06:35:42 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:35:42 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> , Message-ID: <53DE3AAE.1060209@mira.net> https://vimeo.com/groups/chat/videos/28693286 Vera John-Steiner on Loving and Hating Mathematics a ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Cathrene Connery wrote: > Good morning! Those of you involved in this discussion would be very interested in Vera John Steiner and Reuben Hersh's book called Loving and Hating Mathematics. The authors use Vygotskian theory as a lens for their insights into the cultural-historical and pedagogical aspects of appropriating mathematics as a semiotic tool kit as well as the perezhivaija of mathematicians as expert learner-thinkers who have shaped the discipline. > It is also a rich, elegant, and provoking read. > All the best, > Cathrene > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > Associate Professor of Education > Ithaca College > Department of Education > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > 953 Danby Road > Ithaca, New York 14850 > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Greg Thompson" wrote: > > >> Yes, Jessica, I second Robert's suggestion about writing something about >> your "Dear Math" project! >> >> The students' responses could be very useful for others to better >> understand the kinds of experiences that your students are facing. Perhaps >> there is a way of anonymizing the data and then presenting it in some way >> so that their voices can be heard. >> >> Wondering if maybe you could share with us some of the memories that they >> write? >> >> Steele's work points nicely to the problem but it doesn't tell us much >> about the way cultural, historical, and interactional contexts contributed >> to things being the way they are. I think that this is where a SCT/CHAT or >> whatever-you-want-to-call-it approach can be very helpful in exploring the >> "air" in which a "threat" comes into being for a certain group of people >> (for those unfamiliar with Claude Steele's work, he refers to stereotype >> threat as a "threat in the air" which detrimentally affects the academic >> performance of stigmatized students. Here is a useful website about >> stereotype threat: http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/definition.html) >> >> Best, >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >> >> >>> Hi Jessica, >>> Thanks so much for chiming in here. >>> Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? >>> I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the >>> kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students >>> when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent >>> math content. >>> Robert >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several >>>> times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African >>>> American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology >>>> professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on >>>> stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math >>>> >>> they >>> >>>> hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. >>>> They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they >>>> learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just >>>> >>> learning, >>> >>>> and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to >>>> themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to >>>> believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through >>>> stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school >>>> >>> in >>> >>>> general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since >>>> the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the >>>> tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this >>>> >>> is >>> >>>> the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past >>>> experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that >>>> showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice >>>> because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well >>>> >>> in >>> >>>> math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes >>>> like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope >>>> we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their >>>> memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they >>>> >>> feel >>> >>>> silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. >>>> Jessie Kindred >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of >>>> Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM >>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> Colleagues, >>>> >>>> >>>> Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction >>>> >>> in >>> >>>> our schools: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked >>>> them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The >>>> schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my >>>> >>> family >>> >>>> on the salary". >>>> >>>> >>>> 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take >>>> advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 >>>> years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of >>>> being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and >>>> mind of the disenchanted. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in >>>> mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop >>>> problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. >>>> >>>> >>>> 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally >>>> ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a >>>> tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. >>>> >>>> >>>> 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their >>>> energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of >>>> the basics and the nuances of algebra. >>>> >>>> >>>> 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or >>>> enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students >>>> spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the >>>> proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. >>>> >>>> >>>> 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are >>>> the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are >>>> preparing to teach in the elementary grades. >>>> >>>> >>>> 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; >>>> isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are >>>> >>> also >>> >>>> lacking. >>>> >>>> >>>> 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at >>>> the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get >>>> worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few >>>> exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the >>>> necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. >>>> >>>> >>>> - Roger Breen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Ed Wall >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg and all >>>> >>>> I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I >>>> decided >>>> to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college >>>> because I >>>> felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism >>>> (smile) >>>> or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this >>>> workshop >>>> I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the >>>> problems >>>> people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in >>>> teacher >>>> training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes >>>> underwhelmed by us. >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >>>>> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >>>>> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is >>>>> >>>> somewhere >>>> >>>>> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, >>>>> >>>> creative, >>>> >>>>> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >>>>> theoretical Physics. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't >>>>> >>>> been >>>> >>>>> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >>>>> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >>>>> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad >>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a >>>>> >>> set >>> >>>> of >>>> >>>>> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >>>>> >>>>> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile >>>>> >>>> game >>>> >>>>> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >>>>> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much >>>>> >>> longer I >>> >>>>> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >>>>> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are >>>>> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I >>>>> >>> have >>> >>>>> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >>>>> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his >>>>> >>> life...). >>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>> have also tried to provide examples of >>>>> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a >>>>> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of >>>>> >>> pheromones >>> >>>>> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >>>>> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell >>>>> >>> it >>> >>>> in >>>> >>>>> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few >>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day >>>>> >>> after >>> >>>>> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I >>>>> >>>> also >>>> >>>>> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who >>>>> >>>> will >>>> >>>>> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as >>>>> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from >>>>> >>>> my >>>> >>>>> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now >>>>> >>> I'm >>> >>>>> very anxious... >>>>> >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>>>> >>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my >>>>>> >>> M.A. >>> >>>>>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>>>>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>>>>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >>>>>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, >>>>>> >>>> that >>>> >>>>>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in >>>>>> >>>> addition >>>> >>>>>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>>>>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>>>>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>>>>> education. >>>>>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who >>>>>> >>> explained >>> >>>> him >>>> >>>>>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented >>>>>> >>>> person >>>> >>>>>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied >>>>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>>>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education >>>>>> >>> his >>> >>>>>> professional field. >>>>>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < >>>>>> >>>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the >>>>>>> >>> way >>> >>>>>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story >>>>>>> >>> telling >>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>> idea >>>>>> >>>>>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>>>>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted >>>>>>> >>> maths >>> >>>>>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>>>>>> >>>>>> mortals. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've >>>>>>> >>> learnt >>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) >>>>>>> >>> but >>> >>>>>> how >>>>>> >>>>>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing >>>>>>> >>>> maths >>>> >>>>>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>>>> >>>> Cultural-Historical >>>> >>>>>>> Approach >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>> >>>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>> >>>>>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>>>>>>> >>>>>> then >>>>>> >>>>>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not >>>>>>>> >>> try >>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>> And >>>>>> >>>>>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she >>>>>>>> >>>> applied >>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed >>>>>>>> >>> sufficient, >>> >>>>>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to >>>>>>>> >>> master >>> >>>>>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for >>>>>>>> >>> some >>> >>>>>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>>>>>>> >>>>>> There >>>>>> >>>>>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> lose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she >>>>>>>> >>> will >>> >>>>>>> earn >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may >>>>>>>> >>> find a >>> >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >>>>>>>> >>>>>> need >>>>>> >>>>>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any >>>>>>>> >>> case, >>> >>>> I >>>> >>>>>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >>>>>>>> >>>>>> lack >>>>>> >>>>>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally >>>>>>>> >>>> written >>>> >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>>>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest >>>>>>>> >>>> editorial. >>>> >>>>>>> *The >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent >>>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>>>>>>> >>>>>> (Ed.), >>>>>> >>>>>>> *The >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: >>>>>>>> >>>> Princeton >>>> >>>>>>>> University ?Press >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> anna >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Math? >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>>>>>>> >>>>>> citation >>>>>> >>>>>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it >>>>>>>> >>> also >>> >>>>>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very >>>>>>>> >>>> high >>>> >>>>>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize >>>>>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>>>> her >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only >>>>>>>> >>> interested >>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>>>>>>> >>>>>> these). >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> before >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths >>>>>>>> >>> whether >>> >>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>>>>>>> >>>>>> compulsory >>>>>> >>>>>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>>>>>>> >>>>>> science >>>>>> >>>>>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was >>>>>>>> >>> intolerable. >>> >>>>>>> Her >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now >>>>>>>> >>>> that >>>> >>>>>>> she >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> science >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead >>>>>>>> >>>> to >>>> >>>>>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and >>>>>>>> >>>> give >>>> >>>>>>> her >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate >>>>>>>> >>> her, >>> >>>>>>> yet >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors >>>>>>>> >>> for >>> >>>>>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> worried >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. >>>>>>>> >>> In >>> >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when >>>>>>>> >>>> she >>>> >>>>>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might >>>>>>>> >>> close >>> >>>>>> or >>>>>> >>>>>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Year >>>>>> >>>>>>> 11 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it >>>>>>>> >>>> very >>>> >>>>>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>>>>>>> >>>>>> reimagined >>>>>> >>>>>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>>>>>>> >>>>>> students. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My thanks again, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Approach >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>> >>>>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> >>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why >>>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>> we >>>>>> >>>>>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> anna >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself >>>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>>> participate properly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of >>>>>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>>>>>>> >>>>>> experience >>>>>> >>>>>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just >>>>>>>> >>> something >>> >>>>>> you >>>>>> >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards >>>>>>>> >>>> statistics >>>> >>>>>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against >>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>> wall >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand >>>>>>>> >>> up >>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up >>>>>>>> >>> mostly >>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>>>>>>> >>>>>> there >>>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as >>>>>>>> >>>> education >>>> >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>> 20s >>>>>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics >>>>>>>> >>> emerge >>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in >>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every >>>>>>>> >>>> once >>>> >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> while. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >>>>>>>> >>> on >>> >>>>>>>> behalf >>>>>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>>>>>> Culture, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Activity >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, >>>>>>>> >>> something >>> >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps >>>>>>>> >>>> two) >>>> >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully >>>>>>>> >>>> debated) >>>> >>>>>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a >>>>>>>> >>>> rote >>>> >>>>>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Parents >>>>>> >>>>>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ago, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> policy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. >>>>>>>> >>>> Finally, >>>> >>>>>>> she >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>>>>>>> >>>>>> understand >>>>>> >>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the >>>>>>>> >>> kids >>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her >>>>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as >>>>>>>> >>> if I >>> >>>>>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One >>>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> (smile). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have >>>>>>>> >>> little >>> >>>>>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>>>>>>> >>>>>> are, >>>>>> >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>>>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum >>>>>>>> >>> although >>> >>>>>>>> asking >>>>>>>> why is useful. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>>>>> >>> lchcmike@gmail.com> >>> >>>>>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> graduates" >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> understandable terms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. >>>>>>>>> >>> That >>> >>>>>>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be >>>>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrong! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>>>>>> >>> ewall@umich.edu> >>> >>>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katherine >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike >>>>>>>>>> >>> Carol, I >>> >>>>>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of >>>>>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of >>>>>>>>>>> >>> sustaining >>> >>>>>>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching >>>>>>>>>> >>> 1,100 >>> >>>>>>>> hours. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, >>>>>>>>>>> >>> elementary >>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, >>>>>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> developed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to >>>>>>>>>>> >>> new >>> >>>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> prior experiences. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" >>>>>>>>>> >>> isn't >>> >>>>>>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> still >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to >>>>>>>>>> >>> work >>> >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the others. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple >>>>>>>>>> >>> strands >>> >>>>>>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>>>>>>>>>> >>> Math? >>> >>>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many >>>>>>>>>> >>> instances >>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. >>>>>>>>>> >>> I >>> >>>>>>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and >>>>>>>>>> >>> pre-service >>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher >>>>>>>>>>> >>> engagement >>> >>>>>>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (and >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious >>>>>>>>>> >>> computations) >>> >>>>>>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> includes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments >>>>>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult >>>>>>>>>> >>> (most >>> >>>>>>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the >>>>>>>>>> >>> possibility). >>> >>>>>>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be >>>>>>>>>> >>> sustained >>> >>>>>>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where >>>>>>>>>> >>> that >>> >>>>>>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> teachers >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> 'academic' >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen >>>>>>>>>> >>> an >>> >>>>>>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to >>>>>>>>>> >>> figure >>> >>>>>>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it >>>>>>>>>> >>> mean >>> >>>>>>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> know >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> they >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow >>>>>>>>>> >>> into >>> >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> no matter the situation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> need >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> great >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> great >>> >>>>>>>>>> effort to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> than a >>> >>>>>>>>>> dent). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> approach a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> constraints of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> figure >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ideological context >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> keep >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> appeared]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> schooling >>>>>>>> context. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> ewall@umich.edu >>>>>> >>>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>>>>> Japanese >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> annual >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hours >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> time >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> greatly >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> adolescents >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> from >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> elementary >>> >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> more >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> even >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> not >>> >>>>>>>> valued particularly highly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> highly >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 'rare'). >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> powers-that-be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> effective >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> were >>> >>>>>>>>>> happening >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Japanese >>> >>>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> published >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> teachers' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> which >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> this >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> teachers are viewed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> schooling in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> might >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> also be a >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> a >>> >>>>>>>>>> colleague >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> by >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> is >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> steadily >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> worse. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>> >>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> State >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'new' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> However, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> are >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> meetings >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> is >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> stakes >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> topics; >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> courses; >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> even >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Lesson >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (although >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Core >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Standards >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> What >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> operations >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> large >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> such >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> consideration >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> on >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> locally >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> might >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> works in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teaching" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> old >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> method >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> push >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> tests, >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> tests >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> far >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> know, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> practicing >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Stink >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Math? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> no >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> simply >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> student's >>> >>>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > From arips@optonline.net Sun Aug 3 07:12:53 2014 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2014 10:12:53 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: <8D17CDC75C26A78-1E08-1DC1B@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17CDC75C26A78-1E08-1DC1B@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <372289D444E443548BFC0588005F3EED@avramlindaPC> We also need social justice unionism such as in Chicago and the recently won LA union election. Until we address the defunding, amid closing of urban schools in favor of corporate charter schools that teach through extrinsic modifation and test prep -we are not going to improve math education, and education in general. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tvmathdude" To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 10:47 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Why must we separate mathematics from expression? My BS in English ay Boston College did not conflict with my MA in mathematics at Columbia University. I fact as a philosophy minor, I was well prepared for the rigors of proof. And my experience with fiction and writing was helpful as I studied Topology in it"s infant stages. Thought is thought. But I am aware of the incredible obstacles presented to the teacher in a public (non-affluent) school system. A former student student related this incident at a local elementary school. "I was called into the principal's office. A teacher in the next room had complained that I was 15 pages behind schedule in mathematics. I stated that 'if I was on schedule, barely half of the class would be succeeding. I am making up for their poor preparation and within two to three weeks, I see us on schedule.' He looked at me and aid, 'Keep up the good work'. That was the last time anyone challenged my work". I fairness to other new teachers, he had run his own business for 15 years and sold it at a profit. The money made paid for his degrees, which he completed in four years. Another of my former students, a reading teacher, shared the reason for her resignation. She awoke on a Friday before school, crying. She realized that this was how she started each day that week. The system and more so her school was totally dysfunctional. Many of the new mathematics faculty applicants at my college come from the public schools. The money is less, but their sanity returns after a few months in the college classroom. When you ask new teachers in the public schools if the mentoring by more experienced teachers helped. Their answer is "What mentoring?" When I ask the principals, "Why no mentoring?" Their answer is simple, "We only have enough funding for a teacher in every classroom teaching". An example of a system run amuck: The state provided extra funding for students in AP classes. So the system placed many more students in AP courses. Many were unprepared and failed. Not all of the teachers given these classes were trained or had the needed experience. Those who were well equipped to teach AP had a room of students where half could not do the work. Not a recipe for success. If the problem was just mathematics, we may be able to create and test several strategies. With the current the effort in many states to reduce funding to public schools, in favor of charter schools, the problem will only get worse. Any hope? Absolutely. We need many more educators and teachers like those I have been reading these last months. And with the improving economy, legislatures may find more money to give our public schools. - Roger -fgh----Original Message----- From: Greg Thompson To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:18 am Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in theoretical Physics. Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I have also tried to provide examples of science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm very anxious... -greg On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. > Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). > He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving > different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with > math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, > that > his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition > "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math > capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without > matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher > education. > Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained > him > that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person > is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and > successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his > professional field. > So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett > > wrote: > > > Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. > > > > I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way > > home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling > and > > they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the > idea > > at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. > > Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths > > educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere > mortals. > > I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt > to > > play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but > how > > interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths > > that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. > > > > Cheers, > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > Faculty of Education, > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > *New Book: * > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > > Cultural-Historical > > Approach > > < > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > < > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: > > > > > Hi Helen, > > > > > > > > > > > > My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew > then > > > that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try > to > > > dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. > And > > > see what happened: design does require some technical/ > > > scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she > > > applied > > to > > > the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, > > > considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master > > > whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some > > > "real" purpose. > > > > > > > > > > > > This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. > There > > > is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may > > lose. > > > I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will > > earn > > > a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a > > way > > > among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real > need > > > for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole > > > different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, > > > I > > > think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential > > > losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, > lack > > > of self-confidence, etc, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally > > > written > > as > > > guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of > > > Georgia, Athens: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest > > > editorial. > > *The > > > Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are > > the > > > proofs of the chapter): > > > > > > > > > > > > Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici > (Ed.), > > *The > > > best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: > > > Princeton > > > University ?Press > > > > > > > > > > > > anna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] > > > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM > > > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il > > > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at > Math? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the > citation > > > for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also > > > provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter > > > discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very > > > high > > > achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped > > > science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in > > her > > > selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested > in > > > subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of > these). > > > > > > > > > > > > I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling > > before > > > and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether > it > > > would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the > > > subject. In her early secondary school years when science was > compulsory > > > she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' > science > > > would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. > > Her > > > stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now > > > that > > she > > > doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) > > science > > > homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead > > > to > > > another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and > > > give > > her > > > more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, > > yet > > > I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for > > > avenues of study in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more > > worried > > > about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In > > all > > > honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when > > > she > > > says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close > or > > > with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into > Year > > 11 > > > and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it > > > very > > > transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this > > > argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted > > enough > > > to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. > > > > > > > > > > > > It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is > reimagined > > > in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of > students. > > > > > > > > > > > > My thanks again, > > > > > > Helen > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > > > > > > Faculty of Education, > > > > > > Room G64F, Building 902 > > > Monash University, Berwick campus > > > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > > > > > > > > > *New Book: * > > > > > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > Cultural-Historical > > > Approach > > > < > > > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > > > > > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > > < > > > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: > > > > > > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are > we > > > teaching mathematics?" > > > > > > > > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. > > > > > > anna > > > > > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to > > > participate properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On > > Behalf > > > Of > > > Glassman, Michael > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of > > this. > > > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my > experience > > > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something > you > > > do > > > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards > > > statistics > > > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the > > wall > > > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up > and > > > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is > > still > > > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly > > for > > > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But > there > > is > > > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of > > things > > > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as > > > education > > in > > > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in > the > > > 20s > > > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its > > pretty > > > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge > in > > > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the > > > classroom transferable anyway? > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every > > > once > > in > > > a > > > while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > > > From: > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on > > > behalf > > > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM > > > > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, > > > Culture, > > > > > > Activity > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. > > > > > > > > > > > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, > > > something > > > like > > > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps > > > two) > > had > > > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully > > > debated) > > > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a > > > rote > > > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). > Parents > > > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). > > > > > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years > > ago, > > > I > > > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a > > policy > > > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. > > > Finally, > > she > > > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't > understand > > > why > > > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids > in > > > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and > > said > > > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I > > > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One > > > of > > my > > > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM > > (smile). > > > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little > > > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they > are, > > > in > > > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to > > > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although > > > asking > > > why is useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > > > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > > > > > > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real > > > > > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school > graduates" > > > > > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction > > > > > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as > > > > > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can > > > > > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD > > > > > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in > > > understandable terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. > > > > That > > > > > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for > > > > > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be > > > > to > > be > > > wrong! > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Katherine > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what > > > > > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and > > > > > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur > > > > > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby > > > > > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, > > > >> I > > > don't yet know the 'right' answer. > > > > > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Ed > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < > > > > > > wester@uga.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of > > > >>> the > > > > > > >>> same > > > > > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On > > > > > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of > > > >>> sustaining > > > > > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching > > > >> 1,100 > > > hours. > > > > > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. > > > > > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, > > > >>> elementary > > > > > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. > > > > > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, > > > >>> the > > > > > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are > > developed. > > > > > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new > > > > > > >>> ways > > > > > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained > > > > > > >> prior experiences. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these > > > > > > >>> are > > > > > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all > > > > > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" > > > >> isn't > > > > > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm > still > > > > > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could > > > > > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work > > with > > > the others. > > > > > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple > > > >> strands > > > > > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, > > > > > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Katie > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > > > >>> University of Georgia > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > >>> From: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > > >>> < > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM > > > > > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Greg > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may > be > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances > I > > > > > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I > > > > > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to > > > > > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service > > > > > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher > > > >>> engagement > > > > > > >> i(and I meant both!) > > > > > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work > > > > > > >>> (and > > > > > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - > > > > > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious > > > >> computations) > > > > > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this > > > > > > >>> includes > > > > > > >> (mis)understandings!!) > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes > > > > > > >>> school > > > > > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments > > > >> are > > > > > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult > > > >> (most > > > > > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is > > > > > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the > > > >> possibility). > > > > > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where > > > > > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I > > > > > > >> (teachers and pre-service > > > > > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with > > > > > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what > > > > > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained > > > > > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to > > > > > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I > have > > > > > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the > > > > > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - > > > > > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. > > > > > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat > > > > > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in > > > > > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that > > > > > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary > teachers > > > > > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, > > > > > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest > 'academic' > > > > > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, > > > > > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen > > > >> an > > > > > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than > > > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what > is > > > > > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to > > > >> figure > > > > > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you > > > > > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it > > > >> mean > > > > > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to > know > > > > > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, > they > > > > > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into > > them > > > no matter the situation. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not > > > > > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work > > > > > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often > > > > > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose > > > > > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from > > > > > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Ed > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> Ed, > > > > > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the > need > > > > > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that > great > > > > > > >>>> things > > > > > > >> can > > > > > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great > > > > > > >> effort to > > > > > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than > > > >>>> a > > > > > > >> dent). > > > > > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to > > > > > > >> approach a > > > > > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real > > > > > > >> constraints of > > > > > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure > > > > > > >>>> out > > > > > > >> what > > > > > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to > > > > > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be > > > > > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, > > > >>>> and > > > > > > >>>> ideological context > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the > > > > > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the > > > > > > >>>> same good ideas > > > > > > >> keep > > > > > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they > > > > > > >> appeared]. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful > > > > > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal > > > schooling > > > context. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -greg > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu > > > > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Comments below > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the > > > > > > >>>>>> situation > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about > > > >>>>>> the > > > > > > >> Japanese > > > > > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 > annual > > > > > > >> hours > > > > > > >>>>> of > > > > > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact > time > > > > > > >>>>>> in > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >>>>>> U.S. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values > > > > > > >>>>>> childhood > > > > > > >>>>> greatly > > > > > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from > adolescents > > > > > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected > > > >>>>>> from > > > > > > >>>>>> the cruel > > > > > > >>>>> and > > > > > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that > > > >>>>>> elementary > > > > > > >> school > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why > > > > > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is > more > > > > > > >>>>>> of > > > > > > >> an > > > > > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for > > > > > > >>>>>> enabling the > > > > > > >>>>> kind > > > > > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even > > > > > > >>>>>> if > > > > > > >> there > > > > > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers > > > > > > >> would > > > > > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in > > > >>>>>> the > > > U.S. > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the > > > > > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare > > > > > > >>>>>> exceptions, > > > > > > >> it > > > > > > >>>>> is > > > > > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the > > > > > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the > > > > > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not > > > valued particularly highly. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly > > > > > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word > > > >>>>> 'rare'). > > > > > > >>>>> That > > > > > > >> doesn't > > > > > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the > > > powers-that-be. > > > > > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a > > > > > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective > > > > > > >>>>> mentoring > > > > > > >> system > > > > > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is > > > > > > >>>>> anecdotal) > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things > > > >>>>> were > > > > > > >> happening > > > > > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese > > > > > > >> community > > > > > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are > > > > > > >>>>> published > > > > > > >> by > > > > > > >>>>> teachers. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change > > > teachers' > > > > > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in > which > > > > > > >> those > > > > > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even > > > > > > >>>>>> more difficult still. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem > > > >>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this > > > > > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how > > > teachers are viewed. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal > > > > > > >> schooling in > > > > > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? > > > > > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent > > > >>>>> and > > > > > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it > > > >>>>> might > > > > > > >>>>> also be a > > > > > > >> good > > > > > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have > > > > > > >>>>> seen > > > > > > >> very > > > > > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a > > > > > > >> colleague > > > > > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to > > > > > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by > > > > > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is > > > > > > >>>>> getting > > > > > > >> steadily > > > > > > >>>>> worse. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? > > > > > > >>>>>> -greg > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; > > > > > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Ed > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> > > > > > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >> < > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin > > > > > > > > > >> g.html?_r=0 > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to > the > > > > > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State > > > > > > >>>>>>>> in the > > > > > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early > > > > > > >>>>>>> version > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods > > > > > > >>>>>>> beginning > > > > > > >> in > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did > > > > > > >>>>>>> similar as > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > >>>>> K-12 > > > > > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is > > > > > > >>>>>>> little > > > > > > >> 'new' > > > > > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. > > > >>>>>>> However, > > > > > > >>>>>>> there > > > > > > >>>>> is a > > > > > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are > > > > > > >>>>>>> doing > > > > > > >> (I > > > > > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between > meetings > > > > > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping > > > > > > >>>>>>> kids making > > > > > > >>>>> sense). > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it > > > >>>>>>>> is > > > > > > >>>>>>>> being > > > > > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high > stakes > > > > > > >> testing > > > > > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in > > > > > > >>>>>>> Japan); > > > > > > >>>>> there > > > > > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of > > > >>>>>>> topics; > > > > > > >>>>> teachers to > > > > > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their > > > > > > >>>>>>> college > > > > > > >>>>> courses; > > > > > > >>>>>>> and more. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, > > > > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even > > > > > > >>>>>>> if > > > > > > >>>>> somewhat > > > > > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core > > > > > > >>>>>>>> has > > > > > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is > > > >>>>>>> in > > > > > > >>>>>>> sync > > > > > > >>>>> with > > > > > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson > > > > > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon > > > > > > >>>>>>> core > > > > > > >> (although > > > > > > >>>>> one > > > > > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them > > > > > > >>>>>>> rather > > > > > > >>>>> than > > > > > > >>>>>>> Japan). > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in > > > > > > >>>>>>>> teacher > > > > > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common > > > >>>>>>> Core > > > > > > >>>>> Standards > > > > > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What > > > > > > >>>>>>> (from > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of > > > >>>>>>>> operations > > > > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large > > > > > > >>>>>>>> and > > > > > > >> very > > > > > > >>>>>>> complex problem. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Ed > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal > > > > > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> focus > > > > > > >> on > > > > > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and > > > > > > >> learning > > > > > > >>>>> to > > > > > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such > > > > > > >>>>>>> change > > > > > > >>>>> (from > > > > > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no > > > > > > >> consideration > > > > > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school > > > > > > >>>>>>> culture > > > > > > >> or > > > > > > >>>>> the > > > > > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a > > > > > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus > on > > > > > > >>>>>>> what works > > > > > > >> locally > > > > > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) > > > >>>>>>> might > > > > > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that > > > > > > >>>>>>> actually > > > > > > >> works in > > > > > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene > > > > > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it > > > > > > >>>>> might > > > > > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning > > > > > > >> teaching" > > > > > > >>>>> in > > > > > > >>>>>>> their schools. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning > > > > > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same > old > > > > > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese > > > > > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu > > > > > > >>>>> method > > > > > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to > > > > > > >>>>>>> be a > > > > > > >> push > > > > > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. > > > > > > >>>>>>> (Except > > > > > > >>>>> that > > > > > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned > > > >>>>>>> tests, > > > > > > >>>>>>> they > > > > > > >>>>> will > > > > > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes > tests > > > > > > >> without > > > > > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as > > > >>>>>>> far > > > > > > >>>>>>> as I > > > > > > >>>>> know, > > > > > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a > practicing > > > > > > >>>>> teacher. > > > > > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < > > > > > > >>>>> > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> > > > > > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < > > > > > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans > Stink > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> at > > > > > > >>>>> Math? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> [...] > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> idea > > > > > > >>>>> about > > > > > > >>>>>>> how > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than > > > >>>>>>>>> simply > > > > > > >>>>> (un)learnt > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's > > > > > > >> creative > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Best, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Huw > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > > > > > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University > > > > > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > > > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Aug 3 07:03:55 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:03:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> , Message-ID: For those interested, here's a review of the Hersh and John-Steiner book: David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Cathrene Connery Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Good morning! Those of you involved in this discussion would be very interested in Vera John Steiner and Reuben Hersh's book called Loving and Hating Mathematics. The authors use Vygotskian theory as a lens for their insights into the cultural-historical and pedagogical aspects of appropriating mathematics as a semiotic tool kit as well as the perezhivaija of mathematicians as expert learner-thinkers who have shaped the discipline. It is also a rich, elegant, and provoking read. All the best, Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Aug 3, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Greg Thompson" wrote: > Yes, Jessica, I second Robert's suggestion about writing something about > your "Dear Math" project! > > The students' responses could be very useful for others to better > understand the kinds of experiences that your students are facing. Perhaps > there is a way of anonymizing the data and then presenting it in some way > so that their voices can be heard. > > Wondering if maybe you could share with us some of the memories that they > write? > > Steele's work points nicely to the problem but it doesn't tell us much > about the way cultural, historical, and interactional contexts contributed > to things being the way they are. I think that this is where a SCT/CHAT or > whatever-you-want-to-call-it approach can be very helpful in exploring the > "air" in which a "threat" comes into being for a certain group of people > (for those unfamiliar with Claude Steele's work, he refers to stereotype > threat as a "threat in the air" which detrimentally affects the academic > performance of stigmatized students. Here is a useful website about > stereotype threat: http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/definition.html) > > Best, > -greg > > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > >> Hi Jessica, >> Thanks so much for chiming in here. >> Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? >> I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the >> kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students >> when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent >> math content. >> Robert >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. >> wrote: >> >>> I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several >>> times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African >>> American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology >>> professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on >>> stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math >> they >>> hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. >>> They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they >>> learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just >> learning, >>> and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to >>> themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to >>> believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through >>> stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school >> in >>> general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since >>> the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the >>> tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this >> is >>> the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past >>> experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that >>> showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice >>> because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well >> in >>> math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes >>> like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope >>> we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their >>> memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they >> feel >>> silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. >>> Jessie Kindred >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of >>> Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] >>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction >> in >>> our schools: >>> >>> >>> 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked >>> them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The >>> schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my >> family >>> on the salary". >>> >>> >>> 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take >>> advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. >>> >>> >>> 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 >>> years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of >>> being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and >>> mind of the disenchanted. >>> >>> >>> 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in >>> mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop >>> problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. >>> >>> >>> 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally >>> ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a >>> tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. >>> >>> >>> 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their >>> energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of >>> the basics and the nuances of algebra. >>> >>> >>> 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or >>> enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students >>> spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the >>> proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. >>> >>> >>> 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are >>> the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are >>> preparing to teach in the elementary grades. >>> >>> >>> 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; >>> isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are >> also >>> lacking. >>> >>> >>> 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at >>> the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get >>> worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few >>> exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the >>> necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. >>> >>> >>> - Roger Breen >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ed Wall >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> >>> Greg and all >>> >>> I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I >>> decided >>> to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college >>> because I >>> felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism >>> (smile) >>> or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this >>> workshop >>> I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the >>> problems >>> people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in >>> teacher >>> training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes >>> underwhelmed by us. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >>>> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >>>> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is >>> somewhere >>>> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, >>> creative, >>>> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >>>> theoretical Physics. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't >>> been >>>> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >>>> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >>>> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad >> and >>>> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a >> set >>> of >>>> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >>>> >>>> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile >>> game >>>> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >>>> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much >> longer I >>>> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >>>> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are >>>> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I >> have >>>> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >>>> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his >> life...). >>> I >>>> have also tried to provide examples of >>>> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a >>>> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of >> pheromones >>>> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >>>> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell >> it >>> in >>>> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few >> and >>>> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day >> after >>>> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I >>> also >>>> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who >>> will >>>> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as >>>> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from >>> my >>>> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now >> I'm >>>> very anxious... >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>> bella.kotik@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my >> M.A. >>>>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>>>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>>>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >>>>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, >>> that >>>>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in >>> addition >>>>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>>>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>>>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>>>> education. >>>>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who >> explained >>> him >>>>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented >>> person >>>>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied >>> and >>>>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education >> his >>>>> professional field. >>>>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < >>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the >> way >>>>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story >> telling >>>>> and >>>>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned >> the >>>>> idea >>>>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>>>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted >> maths >>>>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>>>> mortals. >>>>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've >> learnt >>>>> to >>>>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) >> but >>>>> how >>>>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing >>> maths >>>>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Helen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>> >>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>> Approach >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>>>> then >>>>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not >> try >>>>> to >>>>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>>>> And >>>>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she >>> applied >>>>>> to >>>>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed >> sufficient, >>>>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to >> master >>>>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for >> some >>>>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>>>> There >>>>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>>>> lose. >>>>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she >> will >>>>>> earn >>>>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may >> find a >>>>>> way >>>>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >>>>> need >>>>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any >> case, >>> I >>>>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >>>>> lack >>>>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally >>> written >>>>>> as >>>>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest >>> editorial. >>>>>> *The >>>>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent >> are >>>>>> the >>>>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>>>> (Ed.), >>>>>> *The >>>>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: >>> Princeton >>>>>>> University ?Press >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> anna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>>>> citation >>>>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it >> also >>>>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very >>> high >>>>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize >> in >>>>>> her >>>>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only >> interested >>>>> in >>>>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>>>> these). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>>>> before >>>>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths >> whether >>>>> it >>>>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>>>> compulsory >>>>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>>>> science >>>>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was >> intolerable. >>>>>> Her >>>>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now >>> that >>>>>> she >>>>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>>>> science >>>>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead >>> to >>>>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and >>> give >>>>>> her >>>>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate >> her, >>>>>> yet >>>>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors >> for >>>>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>>>> worried >>>>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. >> In >>>>>> all >>>>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when >>> she >>>>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might >> close >>>>> or >>>>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>>>> Year >>>>>> 11 >>>>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it >>> very >>>>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>>>> reimagined >>>>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>>>> students. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My thanks again, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>>> Approach >>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why >> are >>>>> we >>>>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> anna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself >> to >>>>>>> participate properly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of >>>>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>>>>> this. >>>>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>>>> experience >>>>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just >> something >>>>> you >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards >>> statistics >>>>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against >> the >>>>>> wall >>>>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand >> up >>>>> and >>>>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>>>> still >>>>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up >> mostly >>>>>> for >>>>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>>>> there >>>>>> is >>>>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>>>> things >>>>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as >>> education >>>>>> in >>>>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >>>>> the >>>>>>> 20s >>>>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>>>>> pretty >>>>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics >> emerge >>>>> in >>>>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in >> the >>>>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every >>> once >>>>>> in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> while. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on >>>>>>> behalf >>>>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>>>>> Culture, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, >> something >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps >>> two) >>>>>> had >>>>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully >>> debated) >>>>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a >>> rote >>>>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>>>> Parents >>>>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>>>> ago, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>>>> policy >>>>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. >>> Finally, >>>>>> she >>>>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>>>> understand >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the >> kids >>>>> in >>>>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her >> and >>>>>> said >>>>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as >> if I >>>>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One >> of >>>>>> my >>>>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>>>> (smile). >>>>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have >> little >>>>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>>>> are, >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum >> although >>>>>>> asking >>>>>>> why is useful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > lchcmike@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >>>>> graduates" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>>>>> understandable terms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. >> That >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be >> to >>>>>> be >>>>>>> wrong! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Katherine >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike >> Carol, I >>>>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of >> sustaining >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching >> 1,100 >>>>>>> hours. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, >> elementary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>>>>> developed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to >> new >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> prior experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" >> isn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >>>>> still >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to >> work >>>>>> with >>>>>>> the others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple >> strands >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many >> instances >>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. >> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and >> pre-service >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher >> engagement >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious >> computations) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments >> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult >> (most >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the >> possibility). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be >> sustained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where >> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >>>>> teachers >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >>>>> 'academic' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen >> an >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>>>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to >> figure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it >> mean >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >>>>> know >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow >> into >>>>>> them >>>>>>> no matter the situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >>>>> need >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >>>>> great >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes >> great >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> effort to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more >> than a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> dent). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> approach a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> constraints of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and >> figure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, >> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ideological context >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> keep >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> appeared]. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>>>>> schooling >>>>>>> context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >>>> ewall@umich.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >>>>> annual >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hours >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >>>>> time >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> greatly >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >>>>> adolescents >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected >> from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that >> elementary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >>>>> more >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that >> even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in >> the >>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is >> not >>>>>>> valued particularly highly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in >> highly >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word >> 'rare'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>>>>> powers-that-be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably >> effective >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things >> were >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> happening >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate >> Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> published >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>>>>> teachers' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of >> this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>>>>> teachers are viewed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> schooling in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent >> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it >> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> also be a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to >> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> colleague >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed >> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It >> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> steadily >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> worse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> < >>>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan >> State >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'new' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. >> However, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they >> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >>>>> meetings >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sense). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it >> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >>>>> stakes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of >> topics; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> courses; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, >> even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is >> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. >> Lesson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (although >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common >> Core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Standards >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" >> What >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of >> operations >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very >> large >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack >> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about >> such >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> consideration >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> locally >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) >> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> works in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teaching" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >>>>> old >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> method >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> push >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned >> tests, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >>>>> tests >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as >> far >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> know, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >>>>> practicing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >>>>> Stink >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had >> no >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than >> simply >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the >> student's >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LovingHatingMathReview.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 72807 bytes Desc: LovingHatingMathReview.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140803/5f99fe6b/attachment.pdf From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Aug 3 07:13:56 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:13:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> , Message-ID: <2598db4c40494dcba5c1897ebe9d049c@SN2PR0601MB798.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Oops, this is the complete, published version. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David H Kirshner Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 9:04 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? For those interested, here's a review of the Hersh and John-Steiner book: David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Cathrene Connery Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:25 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? Good morning! Those of you involved in this discussion would be very interested in Vera John Steiner and Reuben Hersh's book called Loving and Hating Mathematics. The authors use Vygotskian theory as a lens for their insights into the cultural-historical and pedagogical aspects of appropriating mathematics as a semiotic tool kit as well as the perezhivaija of mathematicians as expert learner-thinkers who have shaped the discipline. It is also a rich, elegant, and provoking read. All the best, Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Aug 3, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Greg Thompson" wrote: > Yes, Jessica, I second Robert's suggestion about writing something about > your "Dear Math" project! > > The students' responses could be very useful for others to better > understand the kinds of experiences that your students are facing. Perhaps > there is a way of anonymizing the data and then presenting it in some way > so that their voices can be heard. > > Wondering if maybe you could share with us some of the memories that they > write? > > Steele's work points nicely to the problem but it doesn't tell us much > about the way cultural, historical, and interactional contexts contributed > to things being the way they are. I think that this is where a SCT/CHAT or > whatever-you-want-to-call-it approach can be very helpful in exploring the > "air" in which a "threat" comes into being for a certain group of people > (for those unfamiliar with Claude Steele's work, he refers to stereotype > threat as a "threat in the air" which detrimentally affects the academic > performance of stigmatized students. Here is a useful website about > stereotype threat: http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/definition.html) > > Best, > -greg > > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > >> Hi Jessica, >> Thanks so much for chiming in here. >> Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? >> I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the >> kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students >> when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent >> math content. >> Robert >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. >> wrote: >> >>> I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several >>> times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African >>> American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology >>> professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on >>> stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math >> they >>> hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. >>> They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they >>> learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just >> learning, >>> and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to >>> themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to >>> believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through >>> stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school >> in >>> general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since >>> the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the >>> tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this >> is >>> the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past >>> experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that >>> showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice >>> because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well >> in >>> math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes >>> like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope >>> we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their >>> memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they >> feel >>> silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. >>> Jessie Kindred >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of >>> Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] >>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction >> in >>> our schools: >>> >>> >>> 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked >>> them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The >>> schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my >> family >>> on the salary". >>> >>> >>> 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take >>> advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. >>> >>> >>> 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 >>> years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of >>> being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and >>> mind of the disenchanted. >>> >>> >>> 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in >>> mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop >>> problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. >>> >>> >>> 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally >>> ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a >>> tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. >>> >>> >>> 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their >>> energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of >>> the basics and the nuances of algebra. >>> >>> >>> 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or >>> enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students >>> spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the >>> proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. >>> >>> >>> 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are >>> the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are >>> preparing to teach in the elementary grades. >>> >>> >>> 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; >>> isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are >> also >>> lacking. >>> >>> >>> 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at >>> the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get >>> worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few >>> exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the >>> necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. >>> >>> >>> - Roger Breen >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ed Wall >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>> >>> >>> Greg and all >>> >>> I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I >>> decided >>> to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college >>> because I >>> felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism >>> (smile) >>> or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this >>> workshop >>> I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the >>> problems >>> people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in >>> teacher >>> training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes >>> underwhelmed by us. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >>>> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >>>> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is >>> somewhere >>>> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, >>> creative, >>>> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >>>> theoretical Physics. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't >>> been >>>> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >>>> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >>>> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad >> and >>>> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a >> set >>> of >>>> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >>>> >>>> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile >>> game >>>> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >>>> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much >> longer I >>>> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >>>> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are >>>> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I >> have >>>> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >>>> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his >> life...). >>> I >>>> have also tried to provide examples of >>>> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a >>>> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of >> pheromones >>>> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >>>> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell >> it >>> in >>>> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few >> and >>>> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day >> after >>>> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I >>> also >>>> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who >>> will >>>> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as >>>> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from >>> my >>>> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now >> I'm >>>> very anxious... >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>> bella.kotik@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my >> M.A. >>>>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>>>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>>>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >>>>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, >>> that >>>>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in >>> addition >>>>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>>>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>>>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>>>> education. >>>>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who >> explained >>> him >>>>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented >>> person >>>>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied >>> and >>>>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education >> his >>>>> professional field. >>>>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < >>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the >> way >>>>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story >> telling >>>>> and >>>>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned >> the >>>>> idea >>>>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>>>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted >> maths >>>>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>>>> mortals. >>>>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've >> learnt >>>>> to >>>>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) >> but >>>>> how >>>>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing >>> maths >>>>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Helen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>> >>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>> Approach >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>>>> then >>>>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not >> try >>>>> to >>>>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>>>> And >>>>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she >>> applied >>>>>> to >>>>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed >> sufficient, >>>>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to >> master >>>>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for >> some >>>>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>>>> There >>>>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>>>> lose. >>>>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she >> will >>>>>> earn >>>>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may >> find a >>>>>> way >>>>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >>>>> need >>>>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any >> case, >>> I >>>>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >>>>> lack >>>>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally >>> written >>>>>> as >>>>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest >>> editorial. >>>>>> *The >>>>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent >> are >>>>>> the >>>>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>>>> (Ed.), >>>>>> *The >>>>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: >>> Princeton >>>>>>> University ?Press >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> anna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>>>> citation >>>>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it >> also >>>>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very >>> high >>>>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize >> in >>>>>> her >>>>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only >> interested >>>>> in >>>>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>>>> these). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>>>> before >>>>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths >> whether >>>>> it >>>>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>>>> compulsory >>>>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>>>> science >>>>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was >> intolerable. >>>>>> Her >>>>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now >>> that >>>>>> she >>>>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>>>> science >>>>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead >>> to >>>>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and >>> give >>>>>> her >>>>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate >> her, >>>>>> yet >>>>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors >> for >>>>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>>>> worried >>>>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. >> In >>>>>> all >>>>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when >>> she >>>>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might >> close >>>>> or >>>>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>>>> Year >>>>>> 11 >>>>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it >>> very >>>>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>>>> enough >>>>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>>>> reimagined >>>>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>>>> students. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My thanks again, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>>> Approach >>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why >> are >>>>> we >>>>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> anna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself >> to >>>>>>> participate properly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of >>>>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>>>>> this. >>>>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>>>> experience >>>>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just >> something >>>>> you >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards >>> statistics >>>>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against >> the >>>>>> wall >>>>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand >> up >>>>> and >>>>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>>>> still >>>>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up >> mostly >>>>>> for >>>>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>>>> there >>>>>> is >>>>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>>>> things >>>>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as >>> education >>>>>> in >>>>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >>>>> the >>>>>>> 20s >>>>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>>>>> pretty >>>>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics >> emerge >>>>> in >>>>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in >> the >>>>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every >>> once >>>>>> in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> while. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on >>>>>>> behalf >>>>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>>>>> Culture, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, >> something >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps >>> two) >>>>>> had >>>>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully >>> debated) >>>>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a >>> rote >>>>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>>>> Parents >>>>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>>>> ago, >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>>>> policy >>>>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. >>> Finally, >>>>>> she >>>>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>>>> understand >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the >> kids >>>>> in >>>>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her >> and >>>>>> said >>>>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as >> if I >>>>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One >> of >>>>>> my >>>>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>>>> (smile). >>>>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have >> little >>>>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>>>> are, >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum >> although >>>>>>> asking >>>>>>> why is useful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < > lchcmike@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >>>>> graduates" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>>>>> understandable terms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. >> That >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be >> to >>>>>> be >>>>>>> wrong! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Katherine >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike >> Carol, I >>>>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of >> sustaining >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching >> 1,100 >>>>>>> hours. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, >> elementary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>>>>> developed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to >> new >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> prior experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" >> isn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >>>>> still >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to >> work >>>>>> with >>>>>>> the others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple >> strands >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many >> instances >>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. >> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and >> pre-service >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher >> engagement >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious >> computations) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments >> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult >> (most >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the >> possibility). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be >> sustained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where >> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >>>>> teachers >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >>>>> 'academic' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen >> an >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>>>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to >> figure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it >> mean >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >>>>> know >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow >> into >>>>>> them >>>>>>> no matter the situation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ed, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >>>>> need >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >>>>> great >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes >> great >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> effort to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more >> than a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> dent). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> approach a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> constraints of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and >> figure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, >> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ideological context >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> keep >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> appeared]. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>>>>> schooling >>>>>>> context. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >>>> ewall@umich.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >>>>> annual >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hours >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >>>>> time >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> greatly >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >>>>> adolescents >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected >> from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that >> elementary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >>>>> more >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that >> even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in >> the >>>>>>> U.S. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in >> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is >> not >>>>>>> valued particularly highly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in >> highly >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word >> 'rare'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>>>>> powers-that-be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably >> effective >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things >> were >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> happening >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate >> Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> published >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>>>>> teachers' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of >> this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>>>>> teachers are viewed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> schooling in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent >> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it >> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> also be a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> seen >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to >> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> colleague >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed >> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It >> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> steadily >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> worse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> < >>>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan >> State >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 'new' >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. >> However, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they >> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >>>>> meetings >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sense). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it >> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >>>>> stakes >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of >> topics; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> college >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> courses; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, >> even >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is >> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. >> Lesson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (although >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common >> Core >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Standards >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" >> What >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of >> operations >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very >> large >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack >> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about >> such >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> consideration >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> locally >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) >> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> works in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> teaching" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >>>>> old >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> method >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem >> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> push >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned >> tests, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >>>>> tests >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as >> far >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> know, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >>>>> practicing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >>>>> Stink >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had >> no >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than >> simply >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the >> student's >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: LovingHatingMathReview.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 75145 bytes Desc: LovingHatingMathReview.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140803/e0fb3017/attachment.pdf From ewall@umich.edu Sun Aug 3 07:23:37 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 10:23:37 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> <003a01cfad56$afac2180$0f046480$@net.il> , <8D17C13B8E85C06-1E08-1B129@webmail-m292.sysops.aol.com> <01885ca2d45241cbabd33f7ee68f8ef7@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <7E4DBD9E-5FC0-4DC6-B304-A63F0817FB28@umich.edu> Such a great idea. Now to try out a variation with the teachers I teach! Ed On Aug 2, 2014, at 12:51 PM, "Kindred, Jessica Dr." wrote: > I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math they hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just learning, and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school in general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this is the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well in math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they feel silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. > Jessie Kindred > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > Colleagues, > > > Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction in our schools: > > > 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my family on the salary". > > > 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. > > > 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and mind of the disenchanted. > > > 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. > > > 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. > > > 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of the basics and the nuances of algebra. > > > 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. > > > 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are preparing to teach in the elementary grades. > > > 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are also lacking. > > > 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. > > > - Roger Breen > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Wall > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > Greg and all > > I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I decided > to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college because I > felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism (smile) > or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this workshop > I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the problems > people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in teacher > training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes > underwhelmed by us. > > Ed > > On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere >> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, >> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >> theoretical Physics. >> >> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been >> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and >> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of >> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >> >> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game >> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I >> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are >> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have >> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I >> have also tried to provide examples of >> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a >> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones >> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in >> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and >> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after >> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also >> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will >> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as >> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my >> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm >> very anxious... >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> wrote: >> >>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. >>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that >>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition >>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>> education. >>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him >>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person >>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and >>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his >>> professional field. >>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>> >>> >>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>> >>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way >>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling >>> and >>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the >>> idea >>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths >>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>> mortals. >>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt >>> to >>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but >>> how >>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths >>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>> Faculty of Education, >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>> >>>> *New Book: * >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical >>>> Approach >>>> < >>>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>> >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> < >>>> >>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>> then >>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try >>> to >>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>> And >>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied >>>> to >>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, >>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master >>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some >>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>> There >>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>> lose. >>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will >>>> earn >>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a >>>> way >>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >>> need >>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I >>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >>> lack >>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written >>>> as >>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. >>>> *The >>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are >>>> the >>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>> (Ed.), >>>> *The >>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton >>>>> University ?Press >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> anna >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>> Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>> citation >>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also >>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high >>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in >>>> her >>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested >>> in >>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>> these). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>> before >>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether >>> it >>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>> compulsory >>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>> science >>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. >>>> Her >>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that >>>> she >>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>> science >>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to >>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give >>>> her >>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, >>>> yet >>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for >>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>> worried >>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In >>>> all >>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she >>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close >>> or >>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>> Year >>>> 11 >>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very >>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>> enough >>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>> reimagined >>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>> students. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My thanks again, >>>>> >>>>> Helen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>> >>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>> >>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *New Book: * >>>>> >>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>> Cultural-Historical >>>>> Approach >>>>> < >>>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>> < >>>> >>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>> >>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are >>> we >>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>> >>>>> anna >>>>> >>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to >>>>> participate properly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>> Behalf >>>>> Of >>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>>> this. >>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>> experience >>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something >>> you >>>>> do >>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics >>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the >>>> wall >>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up >>> and >>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>> still >>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly >>>> for >>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>> there >>>> is >>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>> things >>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education >>>> in >>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >>> the >>>>> 20s >>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>>> pretty >>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge >>> in >>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the >>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once >>>> in >>>>> a >>>>> while. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: >>>>> >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on >>>>> behalf >>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>>> Culture, >>>>> >>>>> Activity >>>>> >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something >>>>> like >>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) >>>> had >>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) >>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote >>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>> Parents >>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>> ago, >>>>> I >>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>> policy >>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, >>>> she >>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>> understand >>>>> why >>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids >>> in >>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and >>>> said >>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I >>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of >>>> my >>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>> (smile). >>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little >>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>> are, >>>>> in >>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although >>>>> asking >>>>> why is useful. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>>> >>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>> >>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >>> graduates" >>>>> >>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>> >>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>>> >>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>>> >>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>>> >>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>>> understandable terms. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That >>>>> >>>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>> >>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to >>>> be >>>>> wrong! >>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Katherine >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>>> >>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>>> >>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>>> >>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>>> >>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I >>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>> >>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>>> >>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the >>>>> >>>>>>>> same >>>>> >>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>> >>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining >>>>> >>>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 >>>>> hours. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary >>>>> >>>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the >>>>> >>>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>>> developed. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >>>>> >>>>>>>> ways >>>>> >>>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>>> >>>>>>> prior experiences. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>>> >>>>>>>> are >>>>> >>>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>>> >>>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't >>>>> >>>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >>> still >>>>> >>>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>>> >>>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work >>>> with >>>>> the others. >>>>> >>>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands >>>>> >>>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>>> >>>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>> >>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>> From: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>>>>> < >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>> >>>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>> >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >>> be >>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances >>> I >>>>> >>>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >>>>> >>>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>>> >>>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >>>>> >>>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement >>>>> >>>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>>> >>>>>>>> (and >>>>> >>>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>>> >>>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) >>>>> >>>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>>> >>>>>>>> includes >>>>> >>>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>>> >>>>>>>> school >>>>> >>>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are >>>>> >>>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most >>>>> >>>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>>> >>>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). >>>>> >>>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>>> >>>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>>> >>>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>>> >>>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>>> >>>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>>> >>>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >>>>> >>>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>>> >>>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >>> have >>>>> >>>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>>> >>>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>>> >>>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>>> >>>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>>> >>>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>>> >>>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >>>>> >>>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >>> teachers >>>>> >>>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>>> >>>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >>> 'academic' >>>>> >>>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>>> >>>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an >>>>> >>>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >>> is >>>>> >>>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure >>>>> >>>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>>> >>>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean >>>>> >>>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >>> know >>>>> >>>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >>> they >>>>> >>>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into >>>> them >>>>> no matter the situation. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>>> >>>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>>> >>>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>>> >>>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>>> >>>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>>> >>>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >>> need >>>>> >>>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >>> great >>>>> >>>>>>>>> things >>>>> >>>>>>> can >>>>> >>>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >>>>> >>>>>>> effort to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a >>>>> >>>>>>> dent). >>>>> >>>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>>> >>>>>>> approach a >>>>> >>>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>>> >>>>>>> constraints of >>>>> >>>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >>>>> >>>>>>>>> out >>>>> >>>>>>> what >>>>> >>>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>>> >>>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ideological context >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>>> >>>>>>> keep >>>>> >>>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>>> >>>>>>> appeared]. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>>> >>>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>>> schooling >>>>> context. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the >>>>> >>>>>>> Japanese >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >>> annual >>>>> >>>>>>> hours >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >>> time >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> greatly >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >>> adolescents >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary >>>>> >>>>>>> school >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >>> more >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>> an >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>> >>>>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>> >>>>>>> would >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the >>>>> U.S. >>>>> >>>>>>> not >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not >>>>> valued particularly highly. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That >>>>> >>>>>>> doesn't >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>>> powers-that-be. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>>> >>>>>>> system >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were >>>>> >>>>>>> happening >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >>>>> >>>>>>> community >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> published >>>>> >>>>>>> by >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>>> teachers' >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >>> which >>>>> >>>>>>> those >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>>> teachers are viewed. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>>> >>>>>>> schooling in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> also be a >>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> seen >>>>> >>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >>>>> >>>>>>> colleague >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>> >>>>>>> steadily >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> worse. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> < >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>>> >>>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>> >>>>>>> 'new' >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>> >>>>>>> (I >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >>> meetings >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sense). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >>> stakes >>>>> >>>>>>> testing >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> college >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> courses; >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>> >>>>>>> (although >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Standards >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>>> >>>>>>> learning >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>>> >>>>>>> consideration >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>>> >>>>>>> or >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >>> on >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>>> >>>>>>> locally >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>> >>>>>>> works in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> might >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>>> >>>>>>> teaching" >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >>> old >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> method >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>> >>>>>>> push >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >>> tests >>>>> >>>>>>> without >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> know, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >>> practicing >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>>> >>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >>> Stink >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Math? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >>>>> >>>>>>> creative >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> >>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 09:24:52 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 10:24:52 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Intrinsic motivation? Message-ID: While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's Loving and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in light of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese scholar who had previously received the medal: "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret as ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of "intrinsic motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the fact that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be "intrinsic". On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme d'arte (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art are part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), it seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic motivation. But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case is EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or perhaps even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" of the individual? Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and awards (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) could be thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE the person in order for the person to be motivated by them? Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned from Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a shadow can carry stones? Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is prevalent among psychologists? For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation: "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises from within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This contrasts with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in order to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 09:33:55 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 10:33:55 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] And an awesome autistic artistic savant Message-ID: Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop the video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU Awesome. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From cconnery@ithaca.edu Sun Aug 3 10:52:17 2014 From: cconnery@ithaca.edu (Cathrene Connery) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 17:52:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> Hi Greg: I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and motivation in this case, is also possible that the scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing such big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of catharsis that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for summer school, so it is time to get back to work. Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" wrote: > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's Loving > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in light > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret as > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of "intrinsic > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the fact > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > "intrinsic". > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme d'arte > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art are > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), it > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > motivation. > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case is > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or perhaps > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" of > the individual? > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and awards > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) could be > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE the > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned from > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a shadow > can carry stones? > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is prevalent > among psychologists? > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > motivation: > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises from > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This contrasts > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in order > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > -greg > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From cconnery@ithaca.edu Sun Aug 3 10:52:17 2014 From: cconnery@ithaca.edu (Cathrene Connery) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 17:52:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> Hi Greg: I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and motivation in this case, is also possible that the scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing such big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of catharsis that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for summer school, so it is time to get back to work. Cathrene Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" wrote: > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's Loving > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in light > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret as > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of "intrinsic > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the fact > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > "intrinsic". > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme d'arte > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art are > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), it > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > motivation. > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case is > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or perhaps > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" of > the individual? > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and awards > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) could be > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE the > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned from > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a shadow > can carry stones? > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is prevalent > among psychologists? > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > motivation: > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises from > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This contrasts > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in order > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > -greg > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:27:36 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 11:27:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> Message-ID: Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? mike On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery wrote: > Hi Greg: > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing such > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of catharsis > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for summer > school, so it is time to get back to work. > Cathrene > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > Associate Professor of Education > Ithaca College > Department of Education > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > 953 Danby Road > Ithaca, New York 14850 > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" > wrote: > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's Loving > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in light > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret as > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > "intrinsic > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the fact > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > "intrinsic". > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme d'arte > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art are > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), it > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > motivation. > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case is > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > perhaps > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" of > > the individual? > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and awards > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) could > be > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE > the > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned > from > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a shadow > > can carry stones? > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > prevalent > > among psychologists? > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > > motivation: > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises > from > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > contrasts > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in order > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:27:36 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 11:27:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> Message-ID: Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? mike On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery wrote: > Hi Greg: > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing such > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of catharsis > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for summer > school, so it is time to get back to work. > Cathrene > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > Associate Professor of Education > Ithaca College > Department of Education > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > 953 Danby Road > Ithaca, New York 14850 > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" > wrote: > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's Loving > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in light > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret as > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > "intrinsic > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the fact > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > "intrinsic". > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme d'arte > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art are > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), it > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > motivation. > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case is > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > perhaps > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" of > > the individual? > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and awards > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) could > be > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE > the > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned > from > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a shadow > > can carry stones? > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > prevalent > > among psychologists? > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > > motivation: > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises > from > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > contrasts > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in order > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:40:10 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 11:40:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep that is awesome, Greg. mike On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 > and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. > > Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop the > video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 > > And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU > > Awesome. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:40:10 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 11:40:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep that is awesome, Greg. mike On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 > and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. > > Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop the > video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 > > And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU > > Awesome. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:46:11 2014 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh yes -- first think that greeted us when we returned from a year in Sweden to Brooklyn -- in full size mural form it made us cry, Beth On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > Yep that is awesome, Greg. > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 > > and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. > > > > Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop > the > > video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 > > > > And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU > > > > Awesome. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From bferholt@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:46:11 2014 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh yes -- first think that greeted us when we returned from a year in Sweden to Brooklyn -- in full size mural form it made us cry, Beth On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 2:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > Yep that is awesome, Greg. > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 > > and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. > > > > Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop > the > > video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 > > > > And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU > > > > Awesome. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From cconnery@ithaca.edu Sun Aug 3 13:18:19 2014 From: cconnery@ithaca.edu (Cathrene Connery) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 20:18:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu>, Message-ID: Will have to think about that one! Back to grading.... Dr. Cathrene Connery Associate Professor of Education Ithaca College Department of Education 194B Phillips Hall Annex 953 Danby Road Ithaca, New York 14850 Cconnery@ithaca.edu On Aug 3, 2014, at 2:28 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > motivated person? > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > wrote: > >> Hi Greg: >> I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many >> dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the >> sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While >> John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and >> motivation in this case, is also possible that the >> scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a >> completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when >> accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing such >> big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in >> these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the >> inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class >> athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of catharsis >> that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as >> aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for summer >> school, so it is time to get back to work. >> Cathrene >> >> Dr. Cathrene Connery >> Associate Professor of Education >> Ithaca College >> Department of Education >> 194B Phillips Hall Annex >> 953 Danby Road >> Ithaca, New York 14850 >> Cconnery@ithaca.edu >> >> On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" >> wrote: >> >>> While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's Loving >>> and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of >>> Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in light >>> of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese >>> scholar who had previously received the medal: >>> >>> "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other >>> recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret as >>> ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." >>> >>> Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of >> "intrinsic >>> motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the fact >>> that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be >>> "intrinsic". >>> >>> On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme d'arte >>> (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art are >>> part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), it >>> seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic >>> motivation. >>> >>> But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case is >>> EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or >> perhaps >>> even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to >>> imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any >>> community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" of >>> the individual? >>> >>> Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and awards >>> (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) could >> be >>> thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE >> the >>> person in order for the person to be motivated by them? >>> >>> Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? >>> >>> And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned >> from >>> Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a shadow >>> can carry stones? >>> >>> Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is >> prevalent >>> among psychologists? >>> >>> For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic >>> motivation: >>> "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal >>> rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises >> from >>> within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This >> contrasts >>> with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in order >>> to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 18:49:55 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 19:49:55 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to have such a powerful effect. Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the cognitive and affective variety that you mention? (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in the proper, socially justified manner...). -greg On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > motivated person? > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > wrote: > > > Hi Greg: > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing > such > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > catharsis > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > summer > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > Cathrene > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > Associate Professor of Education > > Ithaca College > > Department of Education > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > 953 Danby Road > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > Loving > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > light > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret > as > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > "intrinsic > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the > fact > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > d'arte > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art > are > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), > it > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > > motivation. > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case > is > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > perhaps > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" > of > > > the individual? > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > awards > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > could > > be > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE > > the > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned > > from > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > shadow > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > prevalent > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > > > motivation: > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises > > from > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > contrasts > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > order > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 18:49:55 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 19:49:55 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to have such a powerful effect. Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the cognitive and affective variety that you mention? (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in the proper, socially justified manner...). -greg On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > motivated person? > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > wrote: > > > Hi Greg: > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing > such > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > catharsis > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > summer > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > Cathrene > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > Associate Professor of Education > > Ithaca College > > Department of Education > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > 953 Danby Road > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > Loving > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > light > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret > as > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > "intrinsic > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the > fact > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > d'arte > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art > are > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), > it > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > > motivation. > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case > is > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > perhaps > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" > of > > > the individual? > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > awards > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > could > > be > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE > > the > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned > > from > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > shadow > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > prevalent > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > > > motivation: > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises > > from > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > contrasts > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > order > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 19:03:28 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 02:03:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Intrinsic_motivation=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> , Message-ID: <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Greg, Mike The phrase *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? I was wondering if we change BUT to AND *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted story of *character* formation through *bildung*? Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is contingent on local culture and history. Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal perspectives. If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be transformative. The question I ask is *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal interpretive formations. Larry Sent from Windows Mail From: Gregory Thompson Sent: ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM To: Mike Cole, eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to have such a powerful effect. Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the cognitive and affective variety that you mention? (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in the proper, socially justified manner...). -greg On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > motivated person? > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > wrote: > > > Hi Greg: > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing > such > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > catharsis > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > summer > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > Cathrene > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > Associate Professor of Education > > Ithaca College > > Department of Education > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > 953 Danby Road > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > Loving > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > light > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret > as > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > "intrinsic > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the > fact > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > d'arte > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art > are > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), > it > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > > motivation. > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case > is > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > perhaps > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" > of > > > the individual? > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > awards > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > could > > be > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE > > the > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned > > from > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > shadow > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > prevalent > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > > > motivation: > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises > > from > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > contrasts > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > order > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 19:03:28 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 02:03:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Intrinsic_motivation=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> , Message-ID: <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Greg, Mike The phrase *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? I was wondering if we change BUT to AND *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted story of *character* formation through *bildung*? Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is contingent on local culture and history. Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal perspectives. If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be transformative. The question I ask is *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal interpretive formations. Larry Sent from Windows Mail From: Gregory Thompson Sent: ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM To: Mike Cole, eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to have such a powerful effect. Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the cognitive and affective variety that you mention? (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in the proper, socially justified manner...). -greg On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > motivated person? > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > wrote: > > > Hi Greg: > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing > such > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows the > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > catharsis > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > summer > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > Cathrene > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > Associate Professor of Education > > Ithaca College > > Department of Education > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > 953 Danby Road > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" > > wrote: > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > Loving > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > light > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner interpret > as > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > "intrinsic > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the > fact > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > d'arte > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art > are > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), > it > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > > motivation. > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this case > is > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > perhaps > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" > of > > > the individual? > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > awards > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > could > > be > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be INSIDE > > the > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike mentioned > > from > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > shadow > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > prevalent > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and extrinsic > > > motivation: > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior arises > > from > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > contrasts > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > order > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:26:00 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 20:26:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. mike On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > Greg, Mike > The phrase > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > contingent on local culture and history. > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal perspectives. > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > transformative. The question I ask is > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > interpretive formations. > Larry > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to > have such a powerful effect. > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > -greg > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > motivated person? > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing > > such > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows > the > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > catharsis > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > > summer > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > Cathrene > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > Ithaca College > > > Department of Education > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > 953 Danby Road > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > > Loving > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > > light > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > interpret > > as > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > "intrinsic > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the > > fact > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > > d'arte > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art > > are > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), > > it > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this > case > > is > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > > perhaps > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" > > of > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > > awards > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > > could > > > be > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > INSIDE > > > the > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > mentioned > > > from > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > > shadow > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > > prevalent > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > extrinsic > > > > motivation: > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > arises > > > from > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > > contrasts > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > > order > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:26:00 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 20:26:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. mike On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > Greg, Mike > The phrase > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > contingent on local culture and history. > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal perspectives. > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > transformative. The question I ask is > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > interpretive formations. > Larry > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to > have such a powerful effect. > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > -greg > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > motivated person? > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing > > such > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows > the > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > catharsis > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > > summer > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > Cathrene > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > Ithaca College > > > Department of Education > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > 953 Danby Road > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > > Loving > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > > light > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > interpret > > as > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > "intrinsic > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the > > fact > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > > d'arte > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art > > are > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!), > > it > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this > case > > is > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > > perhaps > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside" > > of > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > > awards > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > > could > > > be > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > INSIDE > > > the > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > mentioned > > > from > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > > shadow > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > > prevalent > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > extrinsic > > > > motivation: > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > arises > > > from > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > > contrasts > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > > order > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:54:03 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 21:54:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: ditto. "but" traded for "and"... As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure that a changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. What I do think it could do is: 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". In contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it now! This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is given a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its best. 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of the importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we shouldn't sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school or "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which they can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key here. Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in Chicago when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who loved Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that he basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus of intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of contexts. This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and even the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but these larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to maximize effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the place to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. Just my thoughts. -greg On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > > > Greg, Mike > > The phrase > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > > contingent on local culture and history. > > > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal > perspectives. > > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > > transformative. The question I ask is > > > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal > > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness > > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > > interpretive formations. > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and > generally > > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on > > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic > > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my > concern > > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I > > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that > cultivate > > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to > > have such a powerful effect. > > > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work > > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the > > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these > > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and > > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness > > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in > > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > > motivated person? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. > While > > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition > and > > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or > witnessing > > > such > > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, > in > > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows > > the > > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > > catharsis > > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > > > summer > > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > > Cathrene > > > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > > Ithaca College > > > > Department of Education > > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > > 953 Danby Road > > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > > > Loving > > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization > of > > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > > > light > > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a > Chinese > > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > > interpret > > > as > > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > > "intrinsic > > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by > the > > > fact > > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to > be > > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > > > d'arte > > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes > d'art > > > are > > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and > teaching!), > > > it > > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to > intrinsic > > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this > > case > > > is > > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > > > perhaps > > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might > to > > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation > "outside" > > > of > > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > > > awards > > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > > > could > > > > be > > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > > INSIDE > > > > the > > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > > mentioned > > > > from > > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > > > shadow > > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > > > prevalent > > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > > extrinsic > > > > > motivation: > > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > > arises > > > > from > > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > > > contrasts > > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > > > order > > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:54:03 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2014 21:54:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: ditto. "but" traded for "and"... As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure that a changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. What I do think it could do is: 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". In contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it now! This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is given a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its best. 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of the importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we shouldn't sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school or "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which they can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key here. Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in Chicago when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who loved Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that he basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus of intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of contexts. This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and even the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but these larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to maximize effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the place to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. Just my thoughts. -greg On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > > > Greg, Mike > > The phrase > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > > contingent on local culture and history. > > > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal > perspectives. > > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > > transformative. The question I ask is > > > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal > > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness > > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > > interpretive formations. > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and > generally > > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on > > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic > > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my > concern > > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I > > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that > cultivate > > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to > > have such a powerful effect. > > > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work > > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the > > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these > > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and > > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness > > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in > > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > > motivated person? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that many > > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. > While > > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition > and > > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when > > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or > witnessing > > > such > > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, > in > > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows > > the > > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class > > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > > catharsis > > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > > > summer > > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > > Cathrene > > > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > > Ithaca College > > > > Department of Education > > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > > 953 Danby Road > > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > > > Loving > > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization > of > > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in > > > light > > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a > Chinese > > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > > interpret > > > as > > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. 73)." > > > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > > "intrinsic > > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by > the > > > fact > > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to > be > > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme > > > d'arte > > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes > d'art > > > are > > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and > teaching!), > > > it > > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to > intrinsic > > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this > > case > > > is > > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or > > > > perhaps > > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might > to > > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any > > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation > "outside" > > > of > > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > > > awards > > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!) > > > could > > > > be > > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > > INSIDE > > > > the > > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > > mentioned > > > > from > > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a > > > shadow > > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > > > prevalent > > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > > extrinsic > > > > > motivation: > > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal > > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > > arises > > > > from > > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > > > contrasts > > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in > > > order > > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Mon Aug 4 03:35:53 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:35:53 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi to everybody, Very interesting debate this one on motivation. My PhD dissertation was on ?motivation? to workplace learning in the case of older workers in the shop floor in the industrial sector, in a western ?developed? context such the north of Italy. I have chosen to adopt the concept of motives to learning instead of the too much cognitivist concept of motivation. The proposal - here in this debate - to integrate this concept by specifying that motivation is *justified* and *mediated* does not satisfy my need of positioning myself in the CHAT perspective. I have problem to accept this part of the definition of motivation: ?the person?s long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?. It seems to me that this conceptualization of motivation focuses on the individual, as separated from the context. The context is now *in* the individual. We look at the individual and the context is only a backcloth. In my doctoral research I have elaborated on the concept of motives and hierarchy of motives from the work of Leontiev in ?Activity, Consciousness, and Personality?. I think that the Leontiev?s concept of motives is more useful when one uses the CHAT perspective and wants to overcome the dualism individuals/contexts. This concept offers a way to look at the single development of people and activities. This single development can be seen for motive is what is behind an activity. My interpretation of Leontiev?s work is that all of us internalize motives by participating in collective and material activities, which are driven by the objects. Object is ?the true motive? of the activity. Motives have collective meanings. When motives are internalized with their collective meanings, the person personalizes them on the basis of her experiences. Every one is a unique constellation of experiences and motives, which they continuously organize hierarchically. This is the moment of subjectification (subjectivity) of the process of internalization (of motives) - highlighted by Stetsenko in her article on MCA in 2005-, a moment between internalization and externalization. I discuss these ideas in my thesis uploaded in Academia.edu. Thanks to this approach I was able to conclude my research with some indications to policy makers about types of intervention to support the single development of people and activities. I tell this here as a comment to what Greg has said about the macro level and its transformation: ?these larger structures are much more intractable to change?. I am wondering whether this thought stems from the adoption of a theoretical perspective which is still marked by the Cartesian dualism and prevents to see how everything is connected. Maria-Cristina Migliore Turin (Italy) 2014-08-04 5:54 GMT+02:00 Greg Thompson : > ditto. "but" traded for "and"... > As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure that a > changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. > > What I do think it could do is: > > 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the > American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in > which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of > their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". In > contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it now! > This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is given > a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - > and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a > troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its > best. > > 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of the > importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids > and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we shouldn't > sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school or > "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. > Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which they > can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially > justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has > everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key > here. > > Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any > motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will > apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than > schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass > Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in Chicago > when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close > with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who loved > Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the > translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that he > basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. > > The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus of > intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of > contexts. > > This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking > primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and > living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and even > the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but these > larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to maximize > effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the place > to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. > > Just my thoughts. > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > > > > > Greg, Mike > > > The phrase > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > > > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > > > > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > > > contingent on local culture and history. > > > > > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal > > perspectives. > > > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > > > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > > > transformative. The question I ask is > > > > > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal > > > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening > awareness > > > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > > > > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > > > interpretive formations. > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > > > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > > > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and > > generally > > > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on > > > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic > > > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > > > > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my > > concern > > > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I > > > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that > > cultivate > > > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > > > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures > to > > > have such a powerful effect. > > > > > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in > work > > > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > > > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the > > > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > > > > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these > > > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and > > > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and > self-centeredness > > > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > > > > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated > (in > > > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > > > motivated person? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery < > cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that > many > > > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. > > While > > > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition > > and > > > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment > when > > > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or > > witnessing > > > > such > > > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, > > in > > > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that > knows > > > the > > > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or > world-class > > > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > > > catharsis > > > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > > > > summer > > > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > > > Cathrene > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > > > Ithaca College > > > > > Department of Education > > > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > > > 953 Danby Road > > > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > > > > Loving > > > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization > > of > > > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal > in > > > > light > > > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a > > Chinese > > > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > > > interpret > > > > as > > > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. > 73)." > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > > > "intrinsic > > > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken > to > > be > > > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological > terme > > > > d'arte > > > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes > > d'art > > > > are > > > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and > > teaching!), > > > > it > > > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to > > intrinsic > > > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this > > > case > > > > is > > > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others > (or > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might > > to > > > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of > any > > > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation > > "outside" > > > > of > > > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > > > > awards > > > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even > marshmallows!) > > > > could > > > > > be > > > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > > > INSIDE > > > > > the > > > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > > > mentioned > > > > > from > > > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than > a > > > > shadow > > > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > > > > prevalent > > > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > > > extrinsic > > > > > > motivation: > > > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by > internal > > > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > > > arises > > > > > from > > > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > > > > contrasts > > > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior > in > > > > order > > > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Mon Aug 4 03:35:53 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:35:53 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi to everybody, Very interesting debate this one on motivation. My PhD dissertation was on ?motivation? to workplace learning in the case of older workers in the shop floor in the industrial sector, in a western ?developed? context such the north of Italy. I have chosen to adopt the concept of motives to learning instead of the too much cognitivist concept of motivation. The proposal - here in this debate - to integrate this concept by specifying that motivation is *justified* and *mediated* does not satisfy my need of positioning myself in the CHAT perspective. I have problem to accept this part of the definition of motivation: ?the person?s long term characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?. It seems to me that this conceptualization of motivation focuses on the individual, as separated from the context. The context is now *in* the individual. We look at the individual and the context is only a backcloth. In my doctoral research I have elaborated on the concept of motives and hierarchy of motives from the work of Leontiev in ?Activity, Consciousness, and Personality?. I think that the Leontiev?s concept of motives is more useful when one uses the CHAT perspective and wants to overcome the dualism individuals/contexts. This concept offers a way to look at the single development of people and activities. This single development can be seen for motive is what is behind an activity. My interpretation of Leontiev?s work is that all of us internalize motives by participating in collective and material activities, which are driven by the objects. Object is ?the true motive? of the activity. Motives have collective meanings. When motives are internalized with their collective meanings, the person personalizes them on the basis of her experiences. Every one is a unique constellation of experiences and motives, which they continuously organize hierarchically. This is the moment of subjectification (subjectivity) of the process of internalization (of motives) - highlighted by Stetsenko in her article on MCA in 2005-, a moment between internalization and externalization. I discuss these ideas in my thesis uploaded in Academia.edu. Thanks to this approach I was able to conclude my research with some indications to policy makers about types of intervention to support the single development of people and activities. I tell this here as a comment to what Greg has said about the macro level and its transformation: ?these larger structures are much more intractable to change?. I am wondering whether this thought stems from the adoption of a theoretical perspective which is still marked by the Cartesian dualism and prevents to see how everything is connected. Maria-Cristina Migliore Turin (Italy) 2014-08-04 5:54 GMT+02:00 Greg Thompson : > ditto. "but" traded for "and"... > As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure that a > changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. > > What I do think it could do is: > > 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the > American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in > which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of > their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". In > contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it now! > This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is given > a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - > and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a > troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its > best. > > 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of the > importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids > and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we shouldn't > sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school or > "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. > Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which they > can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially > justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has > everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key > here. > > Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any > motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will > apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than > schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass > Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in Chicago > when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close > with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who loved > Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the > translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that he > basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. > > The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus of > intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of > contexts. > > This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking > primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and > living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and even > the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but these > larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to maximize > effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the place > to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. > > Just my thoughts. > -greg > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > > > > > Greg, Mike > > > The phrase > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > > > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > > > > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > > > contingent on local culture and history. > > > > > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal > > perspectives. > > > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > > > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > > > transformative. The question I ask is > > > > > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal > > > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening > awareness > > > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > > > > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > > > interpretive formations. > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > > > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > > > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and > > generally > > > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on > > > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic > > > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > > > > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my > > concern > > > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I > > > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that > > cultivate > > > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > > > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures > to > > > have such a powerful effect. > > > > > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in > work > > > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > > > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the > > > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > > > > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these > > > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and > > > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and > self-centeredness > > > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > > > > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated > (in > > > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > > > motivated person? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery < > cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that > many > > > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. > > While > > > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition > > and > > > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a > > > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment > when > > > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or > > witnessing > > > > such > > > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, > > in > > > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that > knows > > > the > > > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or > world-class > > > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > > > catharsis > > > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for > > > > summer > > > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > > > Cathrene > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > > > Ithaca College > > > > > Department of Education > > > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > > > 953 Danby Road > > > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's > > > > Loving > > > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization > > of > > > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal > in > > > > light > > > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a > > Chinese > > > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other > > > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > > > interpret > > > > as > > > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. > 73)." > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > > > "intrinsic > > > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by > > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken > to > > be > > > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological > terme > > > > d'arte > > > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes > > d'art > > > > are > > > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and > > teaching!), > > > > it > > > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to > > intrinsic > > > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this > > > case > > > > is > > > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others > (or > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might > > to > > > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of > any > > > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation > > "outside" > > > > of > > > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and > > > > awards > > > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even > marshmallows!) > > > > could > > > > > be > > > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > > > INSIDE > > > > > the > > > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > > > mentioned > > > > > from > > > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than > a > > > > shadow > > > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is > > > > > prevalent > > > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > > > extrinsic > > > > > > motivation: > > > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by > internal > > > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > > > arises > > > > > from > > > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This > > > > > contrasts > > > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior > in > > > > order > > > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 4 03:45:40 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:45:40 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <53DF6454.8060003@mira.net> Maria, I think that when you conceive of the "context" as *activities*, then it is not something of a different kind or scale than the "narratives" or "projects" which a person participates in or aspires toward, and which form their personality. The question which is posed is the relation(s) *between* activities or projects ... as opposed to inside/outside or individual/society or action/context relations and so on ... such characterisations as these latter ones are inevitably abstract and intractable. So it is not person-environment relations, or person-person relations, but project-project relations which are critical to the development of a person's personality and to the development of the relevant social formation. Hope that makes sense. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Hi to everybody, > > > Very interesting debate this one on motivation. > > > My PhD dissertation was on ?motivation? to workplace learning in the case > of older workers in the shop floor in the industrial sector, in a western > ?developed? context such the north of Italy. > > > I have chosen to adopt the concept of motives to learning instead of the > too much cognitivist concept of motivation. > > > The proposal - here in this debate - to integrate this concept by > specifying that motivation is *justified* and *mediated* does not satisfy > my need of positioning myself in the CHAT perspective. I have problem to > accept this part of the definition of motivation: ?the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?. > > > It seems to me that this conceptualization of motivation focuses on the > individual, as separated from the context. The context is now *in* the > individual. We look at the individual and the context is only a backcloth. > > > In my doctoral research I have elaborated on the concept of motives and > hierarchy of motives from the work of Leontiev in ?Activity, Consciousness, > and Personality?. I think that the Leontiev?s concept of motives is more > useful when one uses the CHAT perspective and wants to overcome the dualism > individuals/contexts. This concept offers a way to look at the single > development of people and activities. > > > This single development can be seen for motive is what is behind an > activity. My interpretation of Leontiev?s work is that all of us > internalize motives by participating in collective and material activities, > which are driven by the objects. Object is ?the true motive? of the > activity. Motives have collective meanings. When motives are internalized > with their collective meanings, the person personalizes them on the basis > of her experiences. Every one is a unique constellation of experiences and > motives, which they continuously organize hierarchically. This is the > moment of subjectification (subjectivity) of the process of internalization > (of motives) - highlighted by Stetsenko in her article on MCA in 2005-, a > moment between internalization and externalization. > > > I discuss these ideas in my thesis uploaded in Academia.edu. > > > Thanks to this approach I was able to conclude my research with some > indications to policy makers about types of intervention to support the > single development of people and activities. I tell this here as a comment > to what Greg has said about the macro level and its transformation: ?these > larger structures are much more intractable to change?. I am wondering > whether this thought stems from the adoption of a theoretical perspective > which is still marked by the Cartesian dualism and prevents to see how > everything is connected. > > > Maria-Cristina Migliore > > > Turin (Italy) > > > > 2014-08-04 5:54 GMT+02:00 Greg Thompson : > > >> ditto. "but" traded for "and"... >> As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure that a >> changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. >> >> What I do think it could do is: >> >> 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the >> American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in >> which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of >> their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". In >> contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it now! >> This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is given >> a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - >> and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a >> troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its >> best. >> >> 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of the >> importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids >> and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we shouldn't >> sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school or >> "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. >> Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which they >> can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially >> justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has >> everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key >> here. >> >> Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any >> motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will >> apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than >> schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass >> Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in Chicago >> when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close >> with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who loved >> Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the >> translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that he >> basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. >> >> The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus of >> intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of >> contexts. >> >> This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking >> primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and >> living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and even >> the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but these >> larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to maximize >> effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the place >> to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> -greg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >>> Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Greg, Mike >>>> The phrase >>>> >>>> *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is >>>> socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term >>>> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? >>>> >>>> I was wondering if we change BUT to AND >>>> >>>> *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is >>>> socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term >>>> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? >>>> >>>> speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted >>>> story of *character* formation through *bildung*? >>>> >>>> Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is >>>> contingent on local culture and history. >>>> >>>> Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal >>>> >>> perspectives. >>> >>>> If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are >>>> socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be >>>> transformative. The question I ask is >>>> >>>> *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal >>>> nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening >>>> >> awareness >> >>>> transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? >>>> >>>> Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal >>>> interpretive formations. >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Windows Mail >>>> >>>> *From:* Gregory Thompson >>>> *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM >>>> *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> >>>> *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu >>>> >>>> Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and >>>> >>> generally >>> >>>> acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on >>>> local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic >>>> aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. >>>> >>>> And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my >>>> >>> concern >>> >>>> was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I >>>> myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that >>>> >>> cultivate >>> >>>> "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain >>>> accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures >>>> >> to >> >>>> have such a powerful effect. >>>> >>>> Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in >>>> >> work >> >>>> that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly >>>> trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the >>>> cognitive and affective variety that you mention? >>>> >>>> (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these >>>> endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and >>>> generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and >>>> >> self-centeredness >> >>>> (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). >>>> >>>> Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated >>>> >> (in >> >>>> the proper, socially justified manner...). >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of >>>>> motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the >>>>> individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically >>>>> motivated person? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery < >>>>> >> cconnery@ithaca.edu >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Greg: >>>>>> I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that >>>>>> >> many >> >>>>>> dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the >>>>>> sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. >>>>>> >>> While >>> >>>>>> John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition >>>>>> >>> and >>> >>>>>> motivation in this case, is also possible that the >>>>>> scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a >>>>>> completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment >>>>>> >> when >> >>>>>> accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or >>>>>> >>> witnessing >>> >>>>> such >>>>> >>>>>> big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, >>>>>> >>> in >>> >>>>>> these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that >>>>>> >> knows >> >>>> the >>>> >>>>>> inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or >>>>>> >> world-class >> >>>>>> athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of >>>>>> >>>>> catharsis >>>>> >>>>>> that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as >>>>>> aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for >>>>>> >>>>> summer >>>>> >>>>>> school, so it is time to get back to work. >>>>>> Cathrene >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Cathrene Connery >>>>>> Associate Professor of Education >>>>>> Ithaca College >>>>>> Department of Education >>>>>> 194B Phillips Hall Annex >>>>>> 953 Danby Road >>>>>> Ithaca, New York 14850 >>>>>> Cconnery@ithaca.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < >>>>>> >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's >>>>>>> >>>>> Loving >>>>> >>>>>>> and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization >>>>>>> >>> of >>> >>>>>>> Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal >>>>>>> >> in >> >>>>> light >>>>> >>>>>>> of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a >>>>>>> >>> Chinese >>> >>>>>>> scholar who had previously received the medal: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other >>>>>>> recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner >>>>>>> >>>> interpret >>>> >>>>> as >>>>> >>>>>>> ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. >>>>>>> >> 73)." >> >>>>>>> Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of >>>>>>> >>>>>> "intrinsic >>>>>> >>>>>>> motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by >>>>>>> >>> the >>> >>>>> fact >>>>> >>>>>>> that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken >>>>>>> >> to >> >>> be >>> >>>>>>> "intrinsic". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological >>>>>>> >> terme >> >>>>> d'arte >>>>> >>>>>>> (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes >>>>>>> >>> d'art >>> >>>>> are >>>>> >>>>>>> part of everyday language about things like parenting and >>>>>>> >>> teaching!), >>> >>>>> it >>>>> >>>>>>> seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to >>>>>>> >>> intrinsic >>> >>>>>>> motivation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this >>>>>>> >>>> case >>>> >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>>> EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others >>>>>>> >> (or >> >>>>>> perhaps >>>>>> >>>>>>> even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might >>>>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>>>> imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of >>>>>>> >> any >> >>>>>>> community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation >>>>>>> >>> "outside" >>> >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>> the individual? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and >>>>>>> >>>>> awards >>>>> >>>>>>> (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even >>>>>>> >> marshmallows!) >> >>>>> could >>>>> >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>>>> thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be >>>>>>> >>>> INSIDE >>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>> person in order for the person to be motivated by them? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike >>>>>>> >>>> mentioned >>>> >>>>>> from >>>>>> >>>>>>> Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than >>>>>>> >> a >> >>>>> shadow >>>>> >>>>>>> can carry stones? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is >>>>>>> >>>>>> prevalent >>>>>> >>>>>>> among psychologists? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and >>>>>>> >>>> extrinsic >>>> >>>>>>> motivation: >>>>>>> "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by >>>>>>> >> internal >> >>>>>>> rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior >>>>>>> >>>> arises >>>> >>>>>> from >>>>>> >>>>>>> within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This >>>>>>> >>>>>> contrasts >>>>>> >>>>>>> with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior >>>>>>> >> in >> >>>>> order >>>>> >>>>>>> to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > > > > From leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com Mon Aug 4 05:33:02 2014 From: leifstrandberg.ab@telia.com (Leif Strandberg) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:33:02 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <001201cfacc5$f9f8ca40$edea5ec0$@net.il> Dear Jessica ? Dear Math. So smart, so full of life, so easy. It is not math it is learning math, and therefore it is possible ? if we can do it together. Yes we can! Leif Sweden 2 aug 2014 kl. 18:51 skrev "Kindred, Jessica Dr." : > I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math they hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with math. They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when they learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just learning, and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students to believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school in general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' since the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing > the tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this is the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report that showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do well in math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I hope we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write their memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they feel silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass math. > Jessie Kindred > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > Colleagues, > > > Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction in our schools: > > > 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I asked them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my family on the salary". > > > 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate area. > > > 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes and mind of the disenchanted. > > > 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. > > > 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries as a tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard syllogisms. > > > 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning of the basics and the nuances of algebra. > > > 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard or enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying the proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. > > > 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these are the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are preparing to teach in the elementary grades. > > > 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are also lacking. > > > 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains at the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to get worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. > > > - Roger Breen > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Wall > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > Greg and all > > I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I decided > to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college because I > felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of pessimism (smile) > or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this workshop > I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the problems > people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in teacher > training. I do know some of my students (college students) are sometimes > underwhelmed by us. > > Ed > > On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere >> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, >> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >> theoretical Physics. >> >> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been >> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and >> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of >> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >> >> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game >> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I >> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are >> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have >> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I >> have also tried to provide examples of >> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a >> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones >> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in >> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and >> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after >> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also >> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will >> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as >> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my >> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm >> very anxious... >> >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> wrote: >> >>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. >>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, that >>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition >>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>> education. >>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained him >>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person >>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and >>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his >>> professional field. >>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>> >>> >>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>> >>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way >>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling >>> and >>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the >>> idea >>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths >>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>> mortals. >>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt >>> to >>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but >>> how >>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths >>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Helen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>> Faculty of Education, >>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>> >>>> *New Book: * >>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical >>>> Approach >>>> < >>>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>> >>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> < >>>> >>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>> then >>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try >>> to >>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>> And >>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she applied >>>> to >>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, >>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master >>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some >>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>> There >>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>> lose. >>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will >>>> earn >>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a >>>> way >>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >>> need >>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, I >>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >>> lack >>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally written >>>> as >>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest editorial. >>>> *The >>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are >>>> the >>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>> (Ed.), >>>> *The >>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: Princeton >>>>> University ?Press >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> anna >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>> Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>> citation >>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also >>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very high >>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in >>>> her >>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested >>> in >>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>> these). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>> before >>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether >>> it >>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>> compulsory >>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>> science >>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. >>>> Her >>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now that >>>> she >>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>> science >>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead to >>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and give >>>> her >>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, >>>> yet >>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for >>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>> worried >>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In >>>> all >>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when she >>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close >>> or >>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>> Year >>>> 11 >>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it very >>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>> enough >>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>> reimagined >>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>> students. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My thanks again, >>>>> >>>>> Helen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>> >>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>> >>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *New Book: * >>>>> >>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>> Cultural-Historical >>>>> Approach >>>>> < >>>> >>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>> < >>>> >>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>> >>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are >>> we >>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>> >>>>> anna >>>>> >>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to >>>>> participate properly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>> Behalf >>>>> Of >>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >>>> this. >>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>> experience >>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something >>> you >>>>> do >>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards statistics >>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the >>>> wall >>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up >>> and >>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>> still >>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly >>>> for >>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>> there >>>> is >>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>> things >>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as education >>>> in >>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >>> the >>>>> 20s >>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >>>> pretty >>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge >>> in >>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the >>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every once >>>> in >>>>> a >>>>> while. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> From: >>>>> >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on >>>>> behalf >>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >>>>> Culture, >>>>> >>>>> Activity >>>>> >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, something >>>>> like >>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps two) >>>> had >>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully debated) >>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a rote >>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>> Parents >>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>> ago, >>>>> I >>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>> policy >>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. Finally, >>>> she >>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>> understand >>>>> why >>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids >>> in >>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and >>>> said >>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I >>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One of >>>> my >>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>> (smile). >>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little >>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>> are, >>>>> in >>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although >>>>> asking >>>>> why is useful. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>>> >>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>> >>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >>> graduates" >>>>> >>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>> >>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >>>>> >>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >>>>> >>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >>>>> >>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >>>>> understandable terms. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. That >>>>> >>>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>> >>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be to >>>> be >>>>> wrong! >>>>> >>>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Katherine >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >>>>> >>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >>>>> >>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >>>>> >>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >>>>> >>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, I >>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>> >>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >>>>> >>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of the >>>>> >>>>>>>> same >>>>> >>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>> >>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of sustaining >>>>> >>>>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching 1,100 >>>>> hours. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, elementary >>>>> >>>>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, the >>>>> >>>>>>> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >>>> developed. >>>>> >>>>>>>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >>>>> >>>>>>>> ways >>>>> >>>>>>> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >>>>> >>>>>>> prior experiences. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >>>>> >>>>>>>> are >>>>> >>>>>>> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >>>>> >>>>>>> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" isn't >>>>> >>>>>>> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >>> still >>>>> >>>>>>> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >>>>> >>>>>>> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work >>>> with >>>>> the others. >>>>> >>>>>>> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple strands >>>>> >>>>>>> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >>>>> >>>>>>> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>> >>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>> From: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> >>>>>>>> < >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>> >>>>>>> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >>>>> >>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >>> be >>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances >>> I >>>>> >>>>>>> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >>>>> >>>>>>> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >>>>> >>>>>>> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >>>>> >>>>>>> teachers are welcome to push back) >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher engagement >>>>> >>>>>>> i(and I meant both!) >>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >>>>> >>>>>>>> (and >>>>> >>>>>>> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >>>>> >>>>>>> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious computations) >>>>> >>>>>>>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >>>>> >>>>>>>> includes >>>>> >>>>>>> (mis)understandings!!) >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >>>>> >>>>>>>> school >>>>> >>>>>>> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments are >>>>> >>>>>>> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult (most >>>>> >>>>>>> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >>>>> >>>>>>> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the possibility). >>>>> >>>>>>> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >>>>> >>>>>>> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >>>>> >>>>>>> (teachers and pre-service >>>>> >>>>>>> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >>>>> >>>>>>> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >>>>> >>>>>>> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >>>>> >>>>>>> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >>>>> >>>>>>> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >>> have >>>>> >>>>>>> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >>>>> >>>>>>> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >>>>> >>>>>>> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >>>>> >>>>>>> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >>>>> >>>>>>> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >>>>> >>>>>>> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >>>>> >>>>>>> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >>> teachers >>>>> >>>>>>> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >>>>> >>>>>>> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >>> 'academic' >>>>> >>>>>>> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >>>>> >>>>>>> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen an >>>>> >>>>>>> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >>>>> 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >>> is >>>>> >>>>>>> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to figure >>>>> >>>>>>> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >>>>> >>>>>>> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it mean >>>>> >>>>>>> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >>> know >>>>> >>>>>>> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >>> they >>>>> >>>>>>> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into >>>> them >>>>> no matter the situation. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >>>>> >>>>>>> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >>>>> >>>>>>> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >>>>> >>>>>>> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >>>>> >>>>>>> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >>>>> >>>>>>> impossible in the formal schooling context. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>>>>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >>> need >>>>> >>>>>>>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >>> great >>>>> >>>>>>>>> things >>>>> >>>>>>> can >>>>> >>>>>>>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >>>>> >>>>>>> effort to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than a >>>>> >>>>>>> dent). >>>>> >>>>>>>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >>>>> >>>>>>> approach a >>>>> >>>>>>>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >>>>> >>>>>>> constraints of >>>>> >>>>>>>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >>>>> >>>>>>>>> out >>>>> >>>>>>> what >>>>> >>>>>>>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >>>>> >>>>>>>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, and >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ideological context >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> same good ideas >>>>> >>>>>>> keep >>>>> >>>>>>>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >>>>> >>>>>>> appeared]. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >>>>> >>>>>>>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >>>>> schooling >>>>> context. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < >> ewall@umich.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Comments below >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> situation >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about the >>>>> >>>>>>> Japanese >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >>> annual >>>>> >>>>>>> hours >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >>> time >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> U.S. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> childhood >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> greatly >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >>> adolescents >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected from >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the cruel >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that elementary >>>>> >>>>>>> school >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >>> more >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>> an >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> enabling the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>> >>>>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teachers >>>>> >>>>>>> would >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in the >>>>> U.S. >>>>> >>>>>>> not >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> exceptions, >>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not >>>>> valued particularly highly. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word 'rare'). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That >>>>> >>>>>>> doesn't >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >>>>> powers-that-be. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mentoring >>>>> >>>>>>> system >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> anecdotal) >>>>> >>>>>>> is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things were >>>>> >>>>>>> happening >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >>>>> >>>>>>> community >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> published >>>>> >>>>>>> by >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >>>>> teachers' >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >>> which >>>>> >>>>>>> those >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more difficult still. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >>>>> teachers are viewed. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >>>>> >>>>>>> schooling in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it might >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> also be a >>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> seen >>>>> >>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >>>>> >>>>>>> colleague >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>> >>>>>>> steadily >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> worse. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Too pessimistic? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < >>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ed Wall >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> < >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> g.html?_r=0 >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> beginning >>>>> >>>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> similar as >>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> K-12 >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> little >>>>> >>>>>>> 'new' >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. However, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>> >>>>>>> (I >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >>> meetings >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> kids making >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sense). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it is >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >>> stakes >>>>> >>>>>>> testing >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Japan); >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of topics; >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teachers to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> college >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> courses; >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and more. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sync >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>> >>>>>>> (although >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> rather >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Japan). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common Core >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Standards >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of operations >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> complex problem. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>> >>>>>>> on >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >>>>> >>>>>>> learning >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (from >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >>>>> >>>>>>> consideration >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> culture >>>>> >>>>>>> or >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >>> on >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> what works >>>>> >>>>>>> locally >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) might >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>> >>>>>>> works in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lampert, it >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> might >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >>>>> >>>>>>> teaching" >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> their schools. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-learning >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >>> old >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> method >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> be a >>>>> >>>>>>> push >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> (Except >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned tests, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >>> tests >>>>> >>>>>>> without >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as far >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> as I >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> know, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >>> practicing >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> teacher. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >>>>> >>>>> huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >>> Stink >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Math? >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> These students had learned >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than simply >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (un)learnt >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >>>>> >>>>>>> creative >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> >>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From jherazo4@hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 12:14:19 2014 From: jherazo4@hotmail.com (jose david herazo) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 19:14:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky and dissability Message-ID: Dear all, Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? YOur help will be very much appreciated. Regards, JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba Tel. (57) 4-7810166 Monter?a, Colombia From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 4 07:53:02 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 00:53:02 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53DF9E4E.70304@mira.net> Louise Boettcher's work: http://pure.au.dk/portal/en/persons/louise-boettcher(7ce6dba0-0e80-4b35-a442-b89b28dfe956).html Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 10:31:34 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:31:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Maria, I appreciate your critical response very much. The accusations of dualism are probably apt despite my dispreference for dualisms. Part of the trouble is simply figuring out how to communicate the ideas in a way that will be understandable to others, particularly with regard to the individual and the context. Gregory Bateson suggested the term "organism-in-the-environment" which we could easily translate to "individual-in-the-environment". And yet it isn't clear how well proposing this unity would push back against the everyday common sense notion that the individual moves through (quite literally) different environments. There is certainly mutual constitution going on here (consider the difference between a blind and a seeing man walking through a city, or, perhaps an autistic woman vs. a non-autistic woman moving through a social space imbued with meaning such as a high school cafeteria), but there is also something that the individual brings along with them as they move through the world (is that better than saying "from context to context"?). As much as I like the push for non-dualism (and I think it should be the goal here), I'm struggling with the words to capture a non-dualistic approach. To that end, I wonder if you might be willing to say more about your dissertation research. Can you take us up to the level of the concrete realities you were dealing with and briefly describe what this kind of analysis looks like with concrete examples so that we might begin to see what language you use to describe these things as well as giving us concrete examples of what an "object" of activity looks like? -greg On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 4:35 AM, Maria Cristina Migliore < migliore@ires.piemonte.it> wrote: > Hi to everybody, > > > Very interesting debate this one on motivation. > > > My PhD dissertation was on ?motivation? to workplace learning in the case > of older workers in the shop floor in the industrial sector, in a western > ?developed? context such the north of Italy. > > > I have chosen to adopt the concept of motives to learning instead of the > too much cognitivist concept of motivation. > > > The proposal - here in this debate - to integrate this concept by > specifying that motivation is *justified* and *mediated* does not satisfy > my need of positioning myself in the CHAT perspective. I have problem to > accept this part of the definition of motivation: ?the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?. > > > It seems to me that this conceptualization of motivation focuses on the > individual, as separated from the context. The context is now *in* the > individual. We look at the individual and the context is only a backcloth. > > > In my doctoral research I have elaborated on the concept of motives and > hierarchy of motives from the work of Leontiev in ?Activity, Consciousness, > and Personality?. I think that the Leontiev?s concept of motives is more > useful when one uses the CHAT perspective and wants to overcome the dualism > individuals/contexts. This concept offers a way to look at the single > development of people and activities. > > > This single development can be seen for motive is what is behind an > activity. My interpretation of Leontiev?s work is that all of us > internalize motives by participating in collective and material activities, > which are driven by the objects. Object is ?the true motive? of the > activity. Motives have collective meanings. When motives are internalized > with their collective meanings, the person personalizes them on the basis > of her experiences. Every one is a unique constellation of experiences and > motives, which they continuously organize hierarchically. This is the > moment of subjectification (subjectivity) of the process of internalization > (of motives) - highlighted by Stetsenko in her article on MCA in 2005-, a > moment between internalization and externalization. > > > I discuss these ideas in my thesis uploaded in Academia.edu. > > > Thanks to this approach I was able to conclude my research with some > indications to policy makers about types of intervention to support the > single development of people and activities. I tell this here as a comment > to what Greg has said about the macro level and its transformation: ?these > larger structures are much more intractable to change?. I am wondering > whether this thought stems from the adoption of a theoretical perspective > which is still marked by the Cartesian dualism and prevents to see how > everything is connected. > > > Maria-Cristina Migliore > > > Turin (Italy) > > > > 2014-08-04 5:54 GMT+02:00 Greg Thompson : > > > ditto. "but" traded for "and"... > > As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure > that a > > changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. > > > > What I do think it could do is: > > > > 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the > > American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in > > which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of > > their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". > In > > contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it > now! > > This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is > given > > a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - > > and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a > > troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its > > best. > > > > 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of > the > > importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids > > and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we > shouldn't > > sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school > or > > "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. > > Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which > they > > can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially > > justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has > > everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key > > here. > > > > Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any > > motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will > > apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than > > schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass > > Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in > Chicago > > when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close > > with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who > loved > > Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the > > translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that > he > > basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. > > > > The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus > of > > intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of > > contexts. > > > > This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking > > primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and > > living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and > even > > the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but > these > > larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to > maximize > > effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the > place > > to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Greg, Mike > > > > The phrase > > > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > > > > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > > > > > > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > > > > contingent on local culture and history. > > > > > > > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal > > > perspectives. > > > > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > > > > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > > > > transformative. The question I ask is > > > > > > > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural > horizonal > > > > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening > > awareness > > > > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > > > > > > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > > > > interpretive formations. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > > > > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > > > > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity > > > > > > > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > > > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and > > > generally > > > > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent > on > > > > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has > extrinsic/intrinsic > > > > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > > > > > > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my > > > concern > > > > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that > I > > > > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that > > > cultivate > > > > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > > > > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just > subcultures > > to > > > > have such a powerful effect. > > > > > > > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in > > work > > > > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > > > > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of > the > > > > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > > > > > > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of > these > > > > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified > and > > > > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and > > self-centeredness > > > > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > > > > > > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated > > (in > > > > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > > > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > > > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > > > > motivated person? > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery < > > cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that > > many > > > > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. > > > While > > > > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about > recognition > > > and > > > > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers > experience a > > > > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment > > when > > > > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or > > > witnessing > > > > > such > > > > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of > fulfillment, > > > in > > > > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that > > knows > > > > the > > > > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or > > world-class > > > > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > > > > catharsis > > > > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade > for > > > > > summer > > > > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > > > > Cathrene > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > > > > Ithaca College > > > > > > Department of Education > > > > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > > > > 953 Danby Road > > > > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and > John-Steiner's > > > > > Loving > > > > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following > characterization > > > of > > > > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields > Medal > > in > > > > > light > > > > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a > > > Chinese > > > > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no > other > > > > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > > > > interpret > > > > > as > > > > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. > > 73)." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > > > > "intrinsic > > > > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck > by > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken > > to > > > be > > > > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological > > terme > > > > > d'arte > > > > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes > > > d'art > > > > > are > > > > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and > > > teaching!), > > > > > it > > > > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to > > > intrinsic > > > > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in > this > > > > case > > > > > is > > > > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others > > (or > > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some > might > > > to > > > > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of > > any > > > > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation > > > "outside" > > > > > of > > > > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals > and > > > > > awards > > > > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even > > marshmallows!) > > > > > could > > > > > > be > > > > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > > > > INSIDE > > > > > > the > > > > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > > > > mentioned > > > > > > from > > > > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more > than > > a > > > > > shadow > > > > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that > is > > > > > > prevalent > > > > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > > > > extrinsic > > > > > > > motivation: > > > > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by > > internal > > > > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > > > > arises > > > > > > from > > > > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. > This > > > > > > contrasts > > > > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a > behavior > > in > > > > > order > > > > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > > Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. > > Senior Researcher > > > IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte > > Via Nizza, 18 > > 10125 Torino ? Italia > > Tel. +39 011 6666463 > > cell. 348 0454272 > > Fax. +39 011 6696012 > > e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it > > skype mariacristinamigliore > > IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it > > LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) > > > > *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita > nella tua regione.* > > *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html > * > > *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this > e-mail > > Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi > allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? > destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale > ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria > responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore > o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo > alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di > tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in > sicurezza. > > This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may > also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is > intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this > email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do > not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank > you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure > or error-free. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 10:31:34 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:31:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <4284ECC1-8EDD-423C-B85C-E89E5495BB18@ithaca.edu> <53def820.679c420a.450c.ffff843f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Maria, I appreciate your critical response very much. The accusations of dualism are probably apt despite my dispreference for dualisms. Part of the trouble is simply figuring out how to communicate the ideas in a way that will be understandable to others, particularly with regard to the individual and the context. Gregory Bateson suggested the term "organism-in-the-environment" which we could easily translate to "individual-in-the-environment". And yet it isn't clear how well proposing this unity would push back against the everyday common sense notion that the individual moves through (quite literally) different environments. There is certainly mutual constitution going on here (consider the difference between a blind and a seeing man walking through a city, or, perhaps an autistic woman vs. a non-autistic woman moving through a social space imbued with meaning such as a high school cafeteria), but there is also something that the individual brings along with them as they move through the world (is that better than saying "from context to context"?). As much as I like the push for non-dualism (and I think it should be the goal here), I'm struggling with the words to capture a non-dualistic approach. To that end, I wonder if you might be willing to say more about your dissertation research. Can you take us up to the level of the concrete realities you were dealing with and briefly describe what this kind of analysis looks like with concrete examples so that we might begin to see what language you use to describe these things as well as giving us concrete examples of what an "object" of activity looks like? -greg On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 4:35 AM, Maria Cristina Migliore < migliore@ires.piemonte.it> wrote: > Hi to everybody, > > > Very interesting debate this one on motivation. > > > My PhD dissertation was on ?motivation? to workplace learning in the case > of older workers in the shop floor in the industrial sector, in a western > ?developed? context such the north of Italy. > > > I have chosen to adopt the concept of motives to learning instead of the > too much cognitivist concept of motivation. > > > The proposal - here in this debate - to integrate this concept by > specifying that motivation is *justified* and *mediated* does not satisfy > my need of positioning myself in the CHAT perspective. I have problem to > accept this part of the definition of motivation: ?the person?s long term > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?. > > > It seems to me that this conceptualization of motivation focuses on the > individual, as separated from the context. The context is now *in* the > individual. We look at the individual and the context is only a backcloth. > > > In my doctoral research I have elaborated on the concept of motives and > hierarchy of motives from the work of Leontiev in ?Activity, Consciousness, > and Personality?. I think that the Leontiev?s concept of motives is more > useful when one uses the CHAT perspective and wants to overcome the dualism > individuals/contexts. This concept offers a way to look at the single > development of people and activities. > > > This single development can be seen for motive is what is behind an > activity. My interpretation of Leontiev?s work is that all of us > internalize motives by participating in collective and material activities, > which are driven by the objects. Object is ?the true motive? of the > activity. Motives have collective meanings. When motives are internalized > with their collective meanings, the person personalizes them on the basis > of her experiences. Every one is a unique constellation of experiences and > motives, which they continuously organize hierarchically. This is the > moment of subjectification (subjectivity) of the process of internalization > (of motives) - highlighted by Stetsenko in her article on MCA in 2005-, a > moment between internalization and externalization. > > > I discuss these ideas in my thesis uploaded in Academia.edu. > > > Thanks to this approach I was able to conclude my research with some > indications to policy makers about types of intervention to support the > single development of people and activities. I tell this here as a comment > to what Greg has said about the macro level and its transformation: ?these > larger structures are much more intractable to change?. I am wondering > whether this thought stems from the adoption of a theoretical perspective > which is still marked by the Cartesian dualism and prevents to see how > everything is connected. > > > Maria-Cristina Migliore > > > Turin (Italy) > > > > 2014-08-04 5:54 GMT+02:00 Greg Thompson : > > > ditto. "but" traded for "and"... > > As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure > that a > > changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that. > > > > What I do think it could do is: > > > > 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the > > American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in > > which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of > > their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". > In > > contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it > now! > > This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is > given > > a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows - > > and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a > > troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its > > best. > > > > 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of > the > > importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids > > and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we > shouldn't > > sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school > or > > "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever. > > Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which > they > > can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially > > justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has > > everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key > > here. > > > > Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any > > motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will > > apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than > > schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass > > Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in > Chicago > > when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close > > with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who > loved > > Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the > > translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that > he > > basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary. > > > > The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus > of > > intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of > > contexts. > > > > This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking > > primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and > > living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and > even > > the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but > these > > larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to > maximize > > effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the > place > > to work - i.e. to the making of contexts. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Greg, Mike > > > > The phrase > > > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > > socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person?s long term > > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > > > I was wondering if we change BUT to AND > > > > > > > > *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is > > > > socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person?s long term > > > > characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person? > > > > > > > > speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted > > > > story of *character* formation through *bildung*? > > > > > > > > Greg?s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is > > > > contingent on local culture and history. > > > > > > > > Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal > > > perspectives. > > > > If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are > > > > socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be > > > > transformative. The question I ask is > > > > > > > > *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural > horizonal > > > > nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening > > awareness > > > > transform our socio-cultural relations with each other? > > > > > > > > Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal > > > > interpretive formations. > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > *From:* Gregory Thompson > > > > *Sent:* ?Sunday?, ?August? ?3?, ?2014 ?6?:?49? ?PM > > > > *To:* Mike Cole , eXtended Mind, Culture, > Activity > > > > > > > > *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > > > > Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and > > > generally > > > > acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent > on > > > > local culture and history. Seems like all of it has > extrinsic/intrinsic > > > > aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others. > > > > > > > > And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my > > > concern > > > > was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that > I > > > > myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that > > > cultivate > > > > "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain > > > > accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just > subcultures > > to > > > > have such a powerful effect. > > > > > > > > Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in > > work > > > > that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly > > > > trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of > the > > > > cognitive and affective variety that you mention? > > > > > > > > (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of > these > > > > endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified > and > > > > generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and > > self-centeredness > > > > (socially "bad" traits!) here too?). > > > > > > > > Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated > > (in > > > > the proper, socially justified manner...). > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of > > > > > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the > > > > > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically > > > > > motivated person? > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery < > > cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Greg: > > > > > > I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that > > many > > > > > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the > > > > > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. > > > While > > > > > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about > recognition > > > and > > > > > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the > > > > > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers > experience a > > > > > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment > > when > > > > > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or > > > witnessing > > > > > such > > > > > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of > fulfillment, > > > in > > > > > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that > > knows > > > > the > > > > > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or > > world-class > > > > > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of > > > > > catharsis > > > > > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as > > > > > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade > for > > > > > summer > > > > > > school, so it is time to get back to work. > > > > > > Cathrene > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Cathrene Connery > > > > > > Associate Professor of Education > > > > > > Ithaca College > > > > > > Department of Education > > > > > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex > > > > > > 953 Danby Road > > > > > > Ithaca, New York 14850 > > > > > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and > John-Steiner's > > > > > Loving > > > > > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following > characterization > > > of > > > > > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields > Medal > > in > > > > > light > > > > > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a > > > Chinese > > > > > > > scholar who had previously received the medal: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "?Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no > other > > > > > > > recognition is needed? (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner > > > > interpret > > > > > as > > > > > > > ?a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation? (p. > > 73)." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of > > > > > > "intrinsic > > > > > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck > by > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken > > to > > > be > > > > > > > "intrinsic". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological > > terme > > > > > d'arte > > > > > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes > > > d'art > > > > > are > > > > > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and > > > teaching!), > > > > > it > > > > > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to > > > intrinsic > > > > > > > motivation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in > this > > > > case > > > > > is > > > > > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others > > (or > > > > > > perhaps > > > > > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some > might > > > to > > > > > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of > > any > > > > > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation > > > "outside" > > > > > of > > > > > > > the individual? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals > and > > > > > awards > > > > > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even > > marshmallows!) > > > > > could > > > > > > be > > > > > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be > > > > INSIDE > > > > > > the > > > > > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike > > > > mentioned > > > > > > from > > > > > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more > than > > a > > > > > shadow > > > > > > > can carry stones? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that > is > > > > > > prevalent > > > > > > > among psychologists? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and > > > > extrinsic > > > > > > > motivation: > > > > > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by > > internal > > > > > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior > > > > arises > > > > > > from > > > > > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. > This > > > > > > contrasts > > > > > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a > behavior > > in > > > > > order > > > > > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > > Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. > > Senior Researcher > > > IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte > > Via Nizza, 18 > > 10125 Torino ? Italia > > Tel. +39 011 6666463 > > cell. 348 0454272 > > Fax. +39 011 6696012 > > e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it > > skype mariacristinamigliore > > IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it > > LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) > > > > *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita > nella tua regione.* > > *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html > * > > *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this > e-mail > > Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi > allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? > destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale > ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria > responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore > o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo > alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di > tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in > sicurezza. > > This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may > also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is > intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this > email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do > not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank > you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure > or error-free. > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From stephenwals@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 11:01:42 2014 From: stephenwals@gmail.com (Stephen Walsh) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:01:42 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jose, You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and disability. Best regards, Stephen On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > -- *R. Stephen Walsh* *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * *Department of Psychology* *University** of Limerick* *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * From stephenwals@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 11:01:42 2014 From: stephenwals@gmail.com (Stephen Walsh) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:01:42 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jose, You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and disability. Best regards, Stephen On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > -- *R. Stephen Walsh* *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * *Department of Psychology* *University** of Limerick* *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Aug 4 11:46:00 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:46:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also Josie, There is a chapter in Kozulin, A. (1999). *Vygotsky's psychology: A biography of ideas*. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press. titled Mind in Trouble (pp.195-238) which I found to be quite helpful in understanding LSV on "disability". Alex Kozulin himself has worked with this the disabled community in Israel for quite some time. Robert Lake On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Stephen Walsh wrote: > Hi Jose, > > You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter > 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by > Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited > by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and > disability. > > Best regards, > > Stephen > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > > Regards, > > > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > > Monter?a, Colombia > > > > > > > -- > > *R. Stephen Walsh* > > *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * > > *Department of Psychology* > > *University** of Limerick* > > *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* > > *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Mon Aug 4 11:46:00 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:46:00 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also Josie, There is a chapter in Kozulin, A. (1999). *Vygotsky's psychology: A biography of ideas*. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press. titled Mind in Trouble (pp.195-238) which I found to be quite helpful in understanding LSV on "disability". Alex Kozulin himself has worked with this the disabled community in Israel for quite some time. Robert Lake On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Stephen Walsh wrote: > Hi Jose, > > You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter > 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by > Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited > by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and > disability. > > Best regards, > > Stephen > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > > Regards, > > > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > > Monter?a, Colombia > > > > > > > -- > > *R. Stephen Walsh* > > *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * > > *Department of Psychology* > > *University** of Limerick* > > *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* > > *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * > From smago@uga.edu Mon Aug 4 12:07:22 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:07:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cad4ae3dafd4027bfb824833170e62c@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Good suggestion Stephen. Jose, you can access the chapter at http://books.google.com/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&pg=PA332&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Walsh Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 2:02 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca list list Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability Hi Jose, You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and disability. Best regards, Stephen On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > -- *R. Stephen Walsh* *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * *Department of Psychology* *University** of Limerick* *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * From smago@uga.edu Mon Aug 4 12:07:22 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:07:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cad4ae3dafd4027bfb824833170e62c@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Good suggestion Stephen. Jose, you can access the chapter at http://books.google.com/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&pg=PA332&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Walsh Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 2:02 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca list list Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability Hi Jose, You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and disability. Best regards, Stephen On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > -- *R. Stephen Walsh* *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * *Department of Psychology* *University** of Limerick* *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * From bferholt@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 11:53:14 2014 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:53:14 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Exciting Position leading unusual PRESCHOOL: PLEASE SEE IMMEDIATELY, THANKS! Message-ID: We need your help to fill this exciting and influential position: We are seeking a director for the laboratory preschool of Brooklyn College, which serves the diverse and international students of Brooklyn College and their families. This preschool is positioned to become a model preschool, and also to work in collaboration with Reggio Emilia inspired Swedish preschools. In these Swedish preschools a respect for children as competent and creative, and for teachers and their profession, is combined with a commitment to serving all students and to creating caring, hopeful, preschool communities. As a laboratory preschool, faculty, teachers, and graduate students are welcomed to conduct research that is designed to benefit children, teachers, and families. The staff of the preschool are working with the Early Childhood and Art Education Department of Brooklyn College to develop an ongoing collaboration with Swedish preschool educators, who visit the preschool to learn about our work with families, early intervention, bilingual curriculum, and community and materials which celebrate diversity of all kinds. And the preschool will not only serve as a model for other preschools, but will continue to collaborate with other innovative preschools that are working towards improving early childhood education in our city. We are looking for a person with the vision, energy, and expertise to help improve early childhood education in our city through their leadership of this innovative and internationally connected laboratory preschool, and particularly for a person who is excited by the prospect of working with their preschool staff and international preschool educators to discover new directions and possibilities (I may not have sent to people who are most closely connected to position listings and/or around in the summer, esp. for TC, Bank St. and the Wonder of Learning exhibit, so please do send on these ways if you know the right person ... thanks!) *PLEASE CONTACT ME -- *Beth Ferholt at bferholt@gmail.com -- * WITH QUESTIONS AND APPLICATION EVEN IF THE DEADLINE IS PASSED!!* ATTACHED IS THE CUNY CALL with application instructions, below is a link concerning recent events related to the preschool and the attached flyer connect to this. http://www.brooklyn.cuny.edu/web/news/bcnews/bcnews_140521a.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Student Life Child Care Ctr Mgr_EarlyChildhoodCenter_400355.doc Type: application/msword Size: 60928 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140804/7dac661f/attachment-0001.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Universal Preschool.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 342086 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140804/7dac661f/attachment-0001.pdf From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Aug 4 12:38:56 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 15:38:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: <8cad4ae3dafd4027bfb824833170e62c@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <8cad4ae3dafd4027bfb824833170e62c@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <6F8C6E91-8F62-45CB-87B9-8A081DD19450@eastsideinstitute.org> And Peter himself has some wonderful discussions of this topic. Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Aug 4, 2014, at 3:07 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Good suggestion Stephen. Jose, you can access the chapter at http://books.google.com/books?id=pn3S9TEjvUAC&pg=PA332&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Walsh > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 2:02 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca list list > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability > > Hi Jose, > > You've probably already got this - but I think that the chapter 'Sociocultural Theory and Education of Children with Special Needs' by Kozulin and Gindis in 'The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky' (2007) edited by Daniels, Cole and Wertsch is good on the subject of Vygotsky and disability. > > Best regards, > > Stephen > > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 8:14 PM, jose david herazo > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? >> YOur help will be very much appreciated. >> Regards, >> >> JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. >> Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba Tel. (57) 4-7810166 >> Monter?a, Colombia >> > > > > > -- > > *R. Stephen Walsh* > > *Irish Research Council funded PhD Student * > > *Department of Psychology* > > *University** of Limerick* > > *Castletroy, Co. Limerick* > > *Email: stephenwals@gmail.com * > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 13:51:17 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 21:51:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jose Have you looked at volume 2 of the collected works? http://www.springer.com/psychology/psychology+general/book/978-0-306-42442-7 Also, depending on your interest, the works of Luria may be of interest too (e.g. his volume Restoration of function after brain injury). Best, Huw On 2 August 2014 20:14, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 13:51:17 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 21:51:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jose Have you looked at volume 2 of the collected works? http://www.springer.com/psychology/psychology+general/book/978-0-306-42442-7 Also, depending on your interest, the works of Luria may be of interest too (e.g. his volume Restoration of function after brain injury). Best, Huw On 2 August 2014 20:14, jose david herazo wrote: > Dear all, > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > Regards, > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > Monter?a, Colombia > From acoppens@ucsc.edu Mon Aug 4 14:46:48 2014 From: acoppens@ucsc.edu (Andrew Coppens) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:46:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Message-ID: Hi everyone - Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens www.andrewcoppens.com On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 12:19 PM, wrote: > Send xmca-l mailing list submissions to > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > xmca-l-owner@mailman.ucsd.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of xmca-l digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? (Andy Blunden) > 2. Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? (Avram Rips) > 3. Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > (David H Kirshner) > 4. Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > (David H Kirshner) > 5. Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? (Ed Wall) > 6. Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 7. And an awesome autistic artistic savant (Greg Thompson) > 8. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Cathrene Connery) > 9. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Cathrene Connery) > 10. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (mike cole) > 11. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (mike cole) > 12. Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant (mike cole) > 13. Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant (mike cole) > 14. Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant (Beth Ferholt) > 15. Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant (Beth Ferholt) > 16. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Cathrene Connery) > 17. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 18. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 19. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (lpscholar2@gmail.com) > 20. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (lpscholar2@gmail.com) > 21. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (mike cole) > 22. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (mike cole) > 23. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 24. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 25. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Maria Cristina Migliore) > 26. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Maria Cristina Migliore) > 27. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Andy Blunden) > 28. Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? (Leif Strandberg) > 29. Vygotsky and dissability (jose david herazo) > 30. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Andy Blunden) > 31. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 32. Re: Intrinsic motivation? (Greg Thompson) > 33. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Stephen Walsh) > 34. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Stephen Walsh) > 35. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Robert Lake) > 36. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Robert Lake) > 37. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Peter Smagorinsky) > 38. Re: Vygotsky and dissability (Peter Smagorinsky) > 39. Exciting Position leading unusual PRESCHOOL: PLEASE SEE > IMMEDIATELY, THANKS! (Beth Ferholt) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Andy Blunden > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: > Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:35:42 +1000 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > https://vimeo.com/groups/chat/videos/28693286 > > > Vera John-Steiner on Loving and Hating Mathematics > > a > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Cathrene Connery wrote: > >> Good morning! Those of you involved in this discussion would be very >> interested in Vera John Steiner and Reuben Hersh's book called Loving and >> Hating Mathematics. The authors use Vygotskian theory as a lens for their >> insights into the cultural-historical and pedagogical aspects of >> appropriating mathematics as a semiotic tool kit as well as the >> perezhivaija of mathematicians as expert learner-thinkers who have shaped >> the discipline. It is also a rich, elegant, and provoking read. All the >> best, >> Cathrene >> >> Dr. Cathrene Connery >> Associate Professor of Education >> Ithaca College Department of Education >> 194B Phillips Hall Annex >> 953 Danby Road >> Ithaca, New York 14850 >> Cconnery@ithaca.edu >> >> On Aug 3, 2014, at 1:02 AM, "Greg Thompson" >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes, Jessica, I second Robert's suggestion about writing something about >>> your "Dear Math" project! >>> >>> The students' responses could be very useful for others to better >>> understand the kinds of experiences that your students are facing. >>> Perhaps >>> there is a way of anonymizing the data and then presenting it in some way >>> so that their voices can be heard. >>> >>> Wondering if maybe you could share with us some of the memories that they >>> write? >>> >>> Steele's work points nicely to the problem but it doesn't tell us much >>> about the way cultural, historical, and interactional contexts >>> contributed >>> to things being the way they are. I think that this is where a SCT/CHAT >>> or >>> whatever-you-want-to-call-it approach can be very helpful in exploring >>> the >>> "air" in which a "threat" comes into being for a certain group of people >>> (for those unfamiliar with Claude Steele's work, he refers to stereotype >>> threat as a "threat in the air" which detrimentally affects the academic >>> performance of stigmatized students. Here is a useful website about >>> stereotype threat: http://www.reducingstereotypethreat.org/ >>> definition.html) >>> >>> Best, >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Robert Lake >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hi Jessica, >>>> Thanks so much for chiming in here. >>>> Have you written anything about the "Dear Math" project? >>>> I am intrigued to see if there is any connection between the >>>> kind of reflective aspect that is perhaps drawn out in the students >>>> when they write in this genre, and increased engagement in subsequent >>>> math content. >>>> Robert >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica Dr. >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I want to pick up on the theme of the fear of math, mentioned several >>>>> times in this string, that is pervasive among the inner city African >>>>> American B.A. students I teach and advise. As an advisor and psychology >>>>> professor, I have found Claude Steele and his colleagues' work on >>>>> stereotype threat so relevant. I coach my students that it is not math >>>>> >>>>> >>>> they >>>> >>>> >>>>> hate, but an experience they had in school that they associate with >>>>> math. >>>>> They often recount traumatic moments, often early in highschool when >>>>> they >>>>> learned that math was not for them. I tell them that math is just >>>>> >>>>> >>>> learning, >>>> >>>> >>>>> and they have already demonstrated their ability to learn, both to >>>>> themselves and others. I tell them that America teaches most students >>>>> to >>>>> believe that math is different and only for a few, mostly through >>>>> stereotypes about girls and math and about African Americans and school >>>>> >>>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>>> general. It is the American way of keeping people 'in their place' >>>>> since >>>>> the more math you take the more money you (can) make. It is amazing the >>>>> tears that arise just from the word math for some, and I tell them this >>>>> >>>>> >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>>> the pain of math being taken away from them, this is grief about past >>>>> experiences, not math itself. I remind them of the 1991 AAUW report >>>>> that >>>>> showed that girls stop taking math in America when they have any choice >>>>> because they believe they are not good at math eveen though they do >>>>> well >>>>> >>>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>>> math. Finally I tell them to write their love letter to math which goes >>>>> like this: Dear Math, I think we were close to each other once and I >>>>> hope >>>>> we can be again. Something came between us. ( I tell them to write >>>>> their >>>>> memories here). I can't wait to get to know and love you again... they >>>>> >>>>> >>>> feel >>>> >>>> >>>>> silly, but many write the letter and go on to learn, love, and pass >>>>> math. >>>>> Jessie Kindred >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [xmca-l-bounces+jkindred=cnr.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of >>>>> Tvmathdude [tvmathdude@aol.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 10:50 PM >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>> Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some reactions to the discussion on mathematic learning and instruction >>>>> >>>>> >>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>>> our schools: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1) Over the years, I have met a number of "former" teachers. When I >>>>> asked >>>>> them "Why not still teaching?", the responses varied somewhat from "The >>>>> schools are a mess" to "I couldn't raise my kids and provide for my >>>>> >>>>> >>>> family >>>> >>>> >>>>> on the salary". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2) Many of the truly knowledgable and talented in mathematics take >>>>> advantage of very good salaries and opportunities in the corporate >>>>> area. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 3) I have been teaching mathematics at the freshman level for over 40 >>>>> years and loving it. Somehow my parents did not teach me the glories of >>>>> being financially well off. Rather the simple joy of opening the eyes >>>>> and >>>>> mind of the disenchanted. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 4) So many of my students believe that they are incapable of success in >>>>> mathematics. My real joy is creating avenues of success as they develop >>>>> problem solving strategies in College Algebra and Intro to Statistics. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 5) As many who teach these courses have found, our students are totally >>>>> ignorant of logic. I use the development of theorems and corollaries >>>>> as a >>>>> tool for teaching the conditional statement and the standard >>>>> syllogisms. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 6) I have had to resort to the use of NLP techniques to redirect their >>>>> energies from fear and anxiety to social discourse and group learning >>>>> of >>>>> the basics and the nuances of algebra. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 7) Student comment after my Stat class: "I have never worked so hard >>>>> or >>>>> enjoyed a course as much as this stat class." Why? Because the students >>>>> spend much of class time DOING statistics AS A TEAM. That is applying >>>>> the >>>>> proper strategies and techniques for gathering and analyzing data. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 8) On the scary side, I have had students admit that they hope these >>>>> are >>>>> the last mathematics classes that they have to take and that they are >>>>> preparing to teach in the elementary grades. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 9) Personally, I see computer software as a deterrent to thought; >>>>> isolating the students from dialog. Our students listening skills are >>>>> >>>>> >>>> also >>>> >>>> >>>>> lacking. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 10) On top of all of this, students diets are destroying their brains >>>>> at >>>>> the same time technology is replacing memory. And it is only going to >>>>> get >>>>> worse. The saving grace for me is the students themselves. With few >>>>> exceptions (after a bit of brainwashing) all of the students make the >>>>> necessary effort to learn the content and become smarter at learning. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Roger Breen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Ed Wall >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:57 am >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Greg and all >>>>> >>>>> I could have stayed in K-12 teaching and I miss it; however, I >>>>> decided >>>>> to, in a sense, multiply myself by returning to the university/college >>>>> because I >>>>> felt a lot of teachers actually cared, but, perhaps because of >>>>> pessimism >>>>> (smile) >>>>> or just unaware of possibilities (there are a lot of the latter at this >>>>> workshop >>>>> I'm attending), had gotten in a sort of rut. So I really wonder if the >>>>> problems >>>>> people are seeing aren't, to a degree, more with myself and others in >>>>> teacher >>>>> training. I do know some of my students (college students) are >>>>> sometimes >>>>> underwhelmed by us. >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:16 AM, Greg Thompson >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging >>>>>> students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same >>>>>> could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> somewhere >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> creative, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in >>>>>> theoretical Physics. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> been >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent >>>>>> elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional >>>>>> teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> and >>>> >>>> >>>>> lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> set >>>> >>>> >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). >>>>>> >>>>>> Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> game >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the >>>>>> discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> longer I >>>> >>>> >>>>> can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is >>>>>> learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there >>>>>> are >>>>>> certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> have >>>> >>>> >>>>> done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but >>>>>> that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> life...). >>>> >>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> have also tried to provide examples of >>>>>> science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went >>>>>> on a >>>>>> hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> pheromones >>>> >>>> >>>>> (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her >>>>>> personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> it >>>> >>>> >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> and >>>> >>>> >>>>> far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> after >>>> >>>> >>>>> day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> also >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized >>>>>> as >>>>>> being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something >>>>>> from >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> my >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I'm >>>> >>>> >>>>> very anxious... >>>>>> >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> M.A. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >>>>>>> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >>>>>>> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go >>>>>>> together, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> addition >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >>>>>>> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >>>>>>> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >>>>>>> education. >>>>>>> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> explained >>>> >>>> >>>>> him >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> person >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> his >>>> >>>> >>>>> professional field. >>>>>>> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> way >>>> >>>> >>>>> home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> telling >>>> >>>> >>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>> idea >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly >>>>>>>> agreed. >>>>>>>> Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> maths >>>> >>>> >>>>> educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> mortals. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> learnt >>>> >>>> >>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> but >>>> >>>> >>>>> how >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> maths >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cultural-Historical >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Approach >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/ >>>> professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers- >>>> professional-development/ >>>> >>>> >>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_ >>>> source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Helen, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> try >>>> >>>> >>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> see what happened: design does require some technical/ >>>>>>>>> scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> applied >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sufficient, >>>> >>>> >>>>> considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> master >>>> >>>> >>>>> whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> some >>>> >>>> >>>>> "real" purpose. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lose. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> will >>>> >>>> >>>>> earn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> find a >>>> >>>> >>>>> way >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the >>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >>>>>>>>> different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> case, >>>> >>>> >>>>> I >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >>>>>>>>> losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person >>>>>>>>> identity, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of self-confidence, etc, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> written >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> as >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> Georgia, Athens: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> editorial. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> *The >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> are >>>> >>>> >>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> proofs of the chapter): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Ed.), >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *The >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Princeton >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> University ?Press >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> anna >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >>>>>>>>> *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Math? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> citation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> also >>>> >>>> >>>>> provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >>>>>>>>> discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> high >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >>>>>>>>> science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in >>>> >>>> >>>>> her >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> selective entry school) and has often said that she is only >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> interested >>>> >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> these). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> before >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> whether >>>> >>>> >>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >>>>>>>>> subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> compulsory >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> science >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> intolerable. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Her >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> she >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> science >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will >>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> give >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> her >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> her, >>>> >>>> >>>>> yet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for >>>> >>>> >>>>> avenues of study in the future. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> worried >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In >>>> >>>> >>>>> all >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> she >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> close >>>> >>>> >>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Year >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 11 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> very >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >>>>>>>>> argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reimagined >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> students. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My thanks again, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Helen >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr Helen Grimmett >>>>>>>>> Lecturer, Student Adviser, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Faculty of Education, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Room G64F, Building 902 >>>>>>>>> Monash University, Berwick campus >>>>>>>>> Phone: 9904 7171 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *New Book: * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cultural-Historical >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Approach >>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/ >>>> professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers- >>>> professional-development/ >>>> >>>> >>>>> Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [image: Image removed by sender.] >>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_ >>>> source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> are >>>> >>>> >>>>> we >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> teaching mathematics?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Already done, Michael - see the attached. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> anna >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>> >>>>> participate properly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of >>>>>>>>> Glassman, Michael >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> experience >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> something >>>> >>>> >>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> statistics >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>> wall >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> up >>>> >>>> >>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> an important field of study. This is something we just made up >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mostly >>>> >>>> >>>>> for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> education >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 20s >>>>>>>>> and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated >>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> emerge >>>> >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>> classroom transferable anyway? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> once >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> while. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> on >>>> >>>> >>>>> behalf >>>>>>>>> of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended >>>>>>>>> Mind, >>>>>>>>> Culture, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Activity >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> something >>>> >>>> >>>>> like >>>>>>>>> this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> two) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> had >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> debated) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> rote >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Parents >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ago, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> policy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finally, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> she >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>> you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> kids >>>> >>>> >>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>> >>>>> said >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> if I >>>> >>>> >>>>> believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of >>>> >>>> >>>>> my >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (smile). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> little >>>> >>>> >>>>> practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> are, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> although >>>> >>>> >>>>> asking >>>>>>>>> why is useful. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >>>>>>>>>> problem when the average "top 12% of California >>>>>>>>>> high school >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> graduates" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >>>>>>>>>> into another. Or if they help its because they >>>>>>>>>> "teach the rule" (as >>>>>>>>>> in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why >>>>>>>>>> they do this. >>>>>>>>>> I think its a challenge to teachers and god >>>>>>>>>> bless those who can >>>>>>>>>> emulate your approach. But its a challenge to >>>>>>>>>> parents, even UCSD >>>>>>>>>> graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they >>>>>>>>>> are doing in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> understandable terms. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That >>>> >>>> >>>>> this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >>>>>>>>>> everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, >>>>>>>>>> how happy I would be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to >>>> >>>> >>>>> be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrong! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ewall@umich.edu> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Katherine >>>>>>>>>>> I think yes to your next to last >>>>>>>>>>> question. However, what >>>>>>>>>>> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps >>>>>>>>>>> back to optimism and >>>>>>>>>>> pessimism) is that looking for a future >>>>>>>>>>> which may or may not occur >>>>>>>>>>> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm >>>>>>>>>>> for thoughtful baby >>>>>>>>>>> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all >>>>>>>>>>> fronts and, unlike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carol, I >>>> >>>> >>>>> don't yet know the 'right' answer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> However, I would like to know (smile). >>>>>>>>>>> Ed >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine >>>>>>>>>>> Wester Neal < >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wester@uga.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>> >>>> >>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >>>>>>>>>>> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sustaining >>>> >>>> >>>>> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1,100 >>>> >>>> >>>>> hours. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. The pressures of testing. >>>>>>>>>>>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, >>>>>>>>>>>> teaching in general, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> elementary >>>> >>>> >>>>> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Making changes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Avram Rips > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Cc: > Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2014 10:12:53 -0400 > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > We also need social justice unionism such as in Chicago and the recently > won LA union election. Until we address the defunding, amid closing of > urban schools in favor of corporate charter schools that teach through > extrinsic modifation and test prep -we are not going to improve math > education, and education in general. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tvmathdude" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 10:47 PM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > Why must we separate mathematics from expression? My BS in English ay > Boston College did not conflict with my MA in mathematics at Columbia > University. I fact as a philosophy minor, I was well prepared for the > rigors of proof. And my experience with fiction and writing was helpful as > I studied Topology in it"s infant stages. Thought is thought. > > > But I am aware of the incredible obstacles presented to the teacher in a > public (non-affluent) school system. > > > A former student student related this incident at a local elementary > school. > > > "I was called into the principal's office. A teacher in the next room had > complained that I was 15 pages behind schedule in mathematics. I stated > that 'if I was on schedule, barely half of the class would be succeeding. I > am making up for their poor preparation and within two to three weeks, I > see us on schedule.' He looked at me and aid, 'Keep up the good work'. That > was the last time anyone challenged my work". > > > I fairness to other new teachers, he had run his own business for 15 years > and sold it at a profit. The money made paid for his degrees, which he > completed in four years. > > > Another of my former students, a reading teacher, shared the reason for > her resignation. She awoke on a Friday before school, crying. She realized > that this was how she started each day that week. The system and more so > her school was totally dysfunctional. > > > Many of the new mathematics faculty applicants at my college come from the > public schools. The money is less, but their sanity returns after a few > months in the college classroom. > > > When you ask new teachers in the public schools if the mentoring by more > experienced teachers helped. Their answer is "What mentoring?" When I ask > the principals, "Why no mentoring?" Their answer is simple, "We only have > enough funding for a teacher in every classroom teaching". > > > An example of a system run amuck: The state provided extra funding for > students in AP classes. So the system placed many more students in AP > courses. Many were unprepared and failed. Not all of the teachers given > these classes were trained or had the needed experience. Those who were > well equipped to teach AP had a room of students where half could not do > the work. Not a recipe for success. > > > If the problem was just mathematics, we may be able to create and test > several strategies. With the current the effort in many states to reduce > funding to public schools, in favor of charter schools, the problem will > only get worse. > > > Any hope? Absolutely. We need many more educators and teachers like those > I have been reading these last months. And with the improving economy, > legislatures may find more money to give our public schools. > > > - Roger > > > > > > > -fgh----Original Message----- > From: Greg Thompson > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Sent: Fri, Aug 1, 2014 11:18 am > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? > > > Lovely conversation about the possibilities of meaning-fully engaging > students-in-their-lives with math(s)-as-discourse. Seems like the same > could be said of science. Some of you may know Jay Lemke (who is somewhere > on the list serve). I have often heard him speak of the playful, creative, > storytelling practice that science is as well - and Jay got his PhD in > theoretical Physics. > > Unfortunately, with my kids (oldest is 12.5 year old boy), this hasn't been > the case. With the exception of one year when we were at an affluent > elementary school in San Diego where he had a particularly exceptional > teacher, most of what my kids have been getting in school is the bad and > lifeless math and science education that sees those fields ONLY as a set of > skills to be mastered (i.e. Anna's "game to be played"). > > Thus far, I've been able to convince my son that this is a worthwhile game > and that there will come a time when he will be able to play with the > discursive genres of math and science, but I don't know how much longer I > can keep up that argument when it flies in the face of everything he is > learning in school. My son has some advantages b.c. as a boy, there are > certain expectations that he will do well in math and science (and I have > done a fair bit of proleptically interpellating him as an engineer, but > that could easily have the opposite effect at any point in his life...). I > have also tried to provide examples of > science-as-story-telling-and-problem-solving as I did when we went on a > hike last weekend and I told him the story of the discovery of pheromones > (Martha McClintock was a prof where I was in grad school so I knew her > personal story as well as her story of discovery and was able to tell it in > a compelling manner). But I do wonder if those few conversations, few and > far between, are really going to amount to much compared to the day after > day drilling of skills that he is getting in school. I hope so. And I also > have three more girls coming up through the ranks in my household who will > not have the advantage of being a gender that is socially recognized as > being "good at math and science" - hopefully I can learn something from my > son's experiences. So I really hope so with them as well. But for now I'm > very anxious... > > -greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:57 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > bella.kotik@gmail.com> > wrote: > > I want to retell a personal story of a student who shared it in my M.A. >> Vygotsky class at HU some years ago. (Today he has Ph.D in education). >> He always was recognized as a talented writer and poet, receiving >> different literary prizes as a teenager. But he had some problems with >> math and somebody explained him that these talents do not go together, >> that >> his struggle with math is because of his literary talent. And in addition >> "You belong to the Moroccans and this is not a good sign for math >> capacities" So he received it verdict and graduated school without >> matriculation exam in math, which is a serious obstacle for higher >> education. >> Being at the army service, he was lucky to meet a teacher who explained >> him >> that who stopped him from studying math was just wrong: "A talented person >> is talented in all he does" This became his new slogan and he studied and >> successfully made the matriculation test in math and made education his >> professional field. >> So the social-cultural aspect here was working clearly. >> >> >> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Helen Grimmett < >> helen.grimmett@monash.edu >> > >> wrote: >> >> > Thanks Anna, for both the reassurance and the citations. >> > >> > I've just been having a conversation with my kids in the car on the way >> > home from school about this idea that maths is a form of story telling >> and >> > they both looked at me as though I was crazy! Yet when I mentioned the >> idea >> > at lunch to my maths education colleagues they both adamantly agreed. >> > Clearly there is some secret here that mathematicians (and gifted maths >> > educators) get that is not being passed on to the rest of us mere >> mortals. >> > I'm not saying that my kids and I are not "good" at maths (we've learnt >> to >> > play the old maths game quite well, but just don't like playing it) but >> how >> > interesting to think that there is a whole different way of seeing maths >> > that could have changed our perspective of the game completely. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Helen >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Dr Helen Grimmett >> > Lecturer, Student Adviser, >> > Faculty of Education, >> > Room G64F, Building 902 >> > Monash University, Berwick campus >> > Phone: 9904 7171 >> > >> > *New Book: * >> > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A > >> Cultural-Historical >> > Approach >> > < >> > >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/ >> professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers- >> professional-development/ >> > > >> > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >> > >> > >> > >> > < >> > >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_ >> source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >> > > >> > >> > >> > On 1 August 2014 17:03, anna sfard wrote: >> > >> > > Hi Helen, >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > My daughter made a similar decision, once upon time. I already knew >> then >> > > that what she liked more than anything else was art, so I did not try >> to >> > > dissuade her. And artist did she become. Or designer, to be precise. >> And >> > > see what happened: design does require some technical/ >> > > scientific/mathematical thinking (math was a condition when she > > >> applied >> > to >> > > the Academy of Art, but the amount she had done was deemed sufficient, >> > > considering her other strengths), and she was perfectly able to master >> > > whatever mathematics was necessary whenever this learning was for some >> > > "real" purpose. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > This said, i understand your worry, and must admit it is justified. >> There >> > > is a game being played out there, and either you play it or you may >> > lose. >> > > I do hope, though, that your daughter will only gain: first, she will >> > earn >> > > a few less stressful, happier years in school, and then she may find a >> > way >> > > among the hurdles just as my daughter did. And if she faces the real >> need >> > > for math latter in life, I'm sure she will cope. It will be a whole >> > > different story then (it will be a story to begin with)! In any case, >> > > I >> > > think the gains of your daughter's decision overweight the potential >> > > losses, with one of the latter being her poor first-person identity, >> lack >> > > of self-confidence, etc, etc. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > And as to the refs you are asking for, the paper was originally > > >> written >> > as >> > > guest editorial for a math ed journal edited by students in Univ of >> > > Georgia, Athens: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Sfard, A. (2012). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? - Guest > > >> editorial. >> > *The >> > > Mathematics Educator, 22*(1), 3-16. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Then it was republished as a chapter in a book (and what I've sent are >> > the >> > > proofs of the chapter): >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Sfard, A. (2013). Why Mathematics? What Mathematics? In M. Pitici >> (Ed.), >> > *The >> > > best writings on mathematics* (pp. 130-142). Princeton, NJ ?: > > >> Princeton >> > > University ?Press >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > anna >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > *From:* Helen Grimmett [mailto:helen.grimmett@monash.edu] >> > > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2014 5:56 AM >> > > *To:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; sfard@netvision.net.il >> > > *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at >> Math? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Thanks for sharing this editorial Anna. Can you please post the >> citation >> > > for it? I would like to share it with my maths colleagues, but it also >> > > provides interesting reassurance for me about letting my daughter >> > > discontinue maths at the end of this year (Year 10). She is a very > >> > high >> > > achieving student but detests maths and science (she already dropped >> > > science at the end of year 9 despite winning the Yr 9 Science prize in >> > her >> > > selective entry school) and has often said that she is only interested >> in >> > > subjects that let her tell stories (she includes music as one of >> these). >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > I must admit I've never thought of maths as a form of story telling >> > before >> > > and I wonder if her schooling had taken this approach to maths whether >> it >> > > would have managed to spark her interest and keep her engaged in the >> > > subject. In her early secondary school years when science was >> compulsory >> > > she often mentioned that she thought it was possible that 'real' >> science >> > > would be quite interesting, but that 'school' science was intolerable. >> > Her >> > > stress levels about school have dropped considerably this year now > >> > that >> > she >> > > doesn't have to suffer through endless (and in her eyes pointless) >> > science >> > > homework and assignments. I appreciate that dropping maths will lead >> > > to >> > > another huge reduction in any remaining school dissatisfaction and > >> > give >> > her >> > > more space to pursue the wide range of subjects that do fascinate her, >> > yet >> > > I still keep telling her I worry about her closing possible doors for >> > > avenues of study in the future. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Reading your editorial makes me realise that perhaps what I'm more >> > worried >> > > about is that "unofficial argument" that maths is a selection tool. In >> > all >> > > honesty my concern is perhaps more with what it says to others when > >> > she >> > > says she dropped maths at Year 10, than with the doors it might close >> or >> > > with what she will miss out on knowing by not continuing maths into >> Year >> > 11 >> > > and 12. Naming this unofficial argument makes the hollowness of it > >> > very >> > > transparent. I believe she is smart enough to have seen through this >> > > argument (not just too naive to see it) and brave enough and gifted >> > enough >> > > to challenge it. I owe it to her to be brave too. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > It will indeed be a great day when school maths and science is >> reimagined >> > > in ways that do not do more harm than good for a huge number of >> students. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > My thanks again, >> > > >> > > Helen >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Dr Helen Grimmett >> > > Lecturer, Student Adviser, >> > > >> > > Faculty of Education, >> > > >> > > Room G64F, Building 902 >> > > Monash University, Berwick campus >> > > Phone: 9904 7171 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > *New Book: * >> > > >> > > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A >> Cultural-Historical >> > > Approach >> > > < >> > >> https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/ >> professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers- >> professional-development/ >> > > >> > > >> > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > [image: Image removed by sender.] >> > > < >> > >> http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_ >> source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On 31 July 2014 23:47, anna sfard wrote: >> > > >> > > " Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up and ask "why are >> we >> > > teaching mathematics?" >> > > >> > > >> > > Already done, Michael - see the attached. >> > > >> > > anna >> > > >> > > PS. This is a fascinating conversation. I wish I could allow myself to >> > > participate properly. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+sfard=netvision.net.il@mailman.ucsd.edu] On >> > Behalf >> > > Of >> > > Glassman, Michael >> > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 4:25 PM >> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >> > > >> > > >> > > So here is my question. We have gone through basically a century of >> > this. >> > > We teach mathematics and some people get it - the people in my >> experience >> > > really love mathematics - but most people don't. It's just something >> you >> > > do >> > > to get some place else (I am reminded of my attitude towards > > >> statistics >> > > courses in graduate school). So we keep banging our head against the >> > wall >> > > again and again. Doesn't it make sense that somebody should stand up >> and >> > > ask "why are we teaching mathematics?" - as a subject I mean, it is >> > still >> > > an important field of study. This is something we just made up mostly >> > for >> > > the sake of "efficiency" - although it is not very efficient. But >> there >> > is >> > > nothing to suggest that this is a good idea, and there are a lot of >> > things >> > > to suggest that maybe we're on the wrong track here as far as > > >> education >> > in >> > > concerned. This was actually an argument about specific subjects in >> the >> > > 20s >> > > and 30s, but we have been so unsuccessful and been so frustrated its >> > pretty >> > > amazing that it hasn't come up again. Why not let mathematics emerge >> in >> > > the course of what we do? Is the type of mathematics we learn in the >> > > classroom transferable anyway? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Maybe a bit heretical, but perhaps the idea should be raised every > >> > once >> > in >> > > a >> > > while. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Michael >> > > >> > > ________________________________________ >> > > >> > > From: >> > > >> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on >> > > behalf >> > > of Ed Wall [ewall@umich.edu] >> > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:10 AM >> > > >> > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, >> > > Culture, >> > > >> > > Activity >> > > >> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Mike >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > As I said I am not a blissful optimist. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Liping Ma made the point some time ago that, in fact, > > >> something >> > > like >> > > this would not be possible until a generation of students (perhaps > >> > two) >> > had >> > > been taught to reasonably (and what this means can be usefully > > >> debated) >> > > understand what was going on (by the way, being able to do it in a > >> > rote >> > > fashion indicates, at least, that one understands the procedure). >> Parents >> > > can help and hinder (most, if treated respectfully, want to help). >> > > >> > > Perhaps a story will indicate where I'm at. A number of years >> > ago, >> > > I >> > > was at a conference sitting next to a young graduate student with a >> > policy >> > > background who was sort of interested in the mathematics mess. > > >> Finally, >> > she >> > > could stand no more and blurted out something like , "I can't >> understand >> > > why >> > > you people are fussing about all this math teaching business, the kids >> in >> > > the inner city schools will never appreciate it." I turned to her and >> > said >> > > sadly something like, "You are possibly right, but I can't act as if I >> > > believe so. Does that make sense?" She nodded yes. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > It is not just UCSD students who have problems with this. One >> > > of >> > my >> > > friends did something with fractions in his calculus class at UM >> > (smile). >> > > Part of the problem, I think, is that fractions in general have little >> > > practical meaning for many people (unlike the natural numbers); they >> are, >> > > in >> > > a sense, somewhat of a historical artifact. It is moderately easy to >> > > intervene on this at certain points in the school curriculum although >> > > asking >> > > why is useful. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Ed >> > > >> > > >> > > On Jul 30, 2014, at 10:01 PM, mike cole < >> > > >> > > lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > That all seems reasonable to me, Ed. But it strikes me as a real >> > > >> > > > problem when the average "top 12% of California high school >> graduates" >> > > >> > > > cannot help a kid who has to figure out how to divide one fraction >> > > >> > > > into another. Or if they help its because they "teach the rule" (as >> > > >> > > > in, invert and multiply) but cannot explain why they do this. >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > I think its a challenge to teachers and god bless those who can >> > > >> > > > emulate your approach. But its a challenge to parents, even UCSD >> > > >> > > > graduates aplenty, who cannot explain what they are doing in >> > > understandable terms. >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > That good teachers can teach it, give the opportunity I believe. > >> > > That >> > > >> > > > this is, or is likely to become, the universally accepted norm for >> > > >> > > > everyone, I fear I doubt. But oh my goodness, how happy I would be >> > > > to >> > be >> > > wrong! >> > > >> > > > mike >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Ed Wall < > > >> > > >> > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Katherine >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> I think yes to your next to last question. However, what >> > > >> > > >> sometimes concerns me (and we are perhaps back to optimism and >> > > >> > > >> pessimism) is that looking for a future which may or may not occur >> > > >> > > >> seems 'unfair' to the students of today. I'm for thoughtful baby >> > > >> > > >> steps (and babies do stumble) now on all fronts and, unlike Carol, >> > > >> I >> > > don't yet know the 'right' answer. >> > > >> > > >> However, I would like to know (smile). >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> Ed >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> On Jul 30, 2014, at 3:32 PM, Katherine Wester Neal < >> > > >> > > wester@uga.edu> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >>> I think we're all on to something here--just different parts of > >> > >>> the >> > > >> > > >>> same >> > > >> > > >> thing. To put it all together, I'm thinking of a spiderweb. On >> > > >> > > >> individual strands, our spiderweb includes: >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> 1. The differences in contact time and the difficulty of > > >>> >> sustaining >> > > >> > > >> meaningful (or really any kind of) change when one is teaching > > >> >> 1,100 >> > > hours. >> > > >> > > >>> 2. The pressures of testing. >> > > >> > > >>> 3. The cultural value of childhood, teaching in general, > > >>> >> elementary >> > > >> > > >> teachers, and testing as an educational goal in the U.S. >> > > >> > > >>> 4. Making changes in teachers' practices, the way schools work, > >> > >>> the >> > > >> > > >> culture of testing, and how students' creative capacities are >> > developed. >> > > >> > > >>> 5. Resistance from parents, teachers, and teacher educators to new >> > > >> > > >>> ways >> > > >> > > >> of learning/new ideas, which is often a result of deeply ingrained >> > > >> > > >> prior experiences. >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> I probably didn't get everything that's been discussed, but these >> > > >> > > >>> are >> > > >> > > >> all issues that should be examined in concert because they are all >> > > >> > > >> connected as part of the same larger system. Although "system" > > >> >> isn't >> > > >> > > >> probably the word I should use with a Vygotskian framework (I'm >> still >> > > >> > > >> learning), I use to say that I'm not sure how an individual could >> > > >> > > >> deal with one of these strands without affecting or needing to work >> > with >> > > the others. >> > > >> > > >> Does it take the effort of a collective, working on multiple > > >> >> strands >> > > >> > > >> simultaneously, to make more than a dent? Or to borrow Ed's words, >> > > >> > > >> how do we reshape the dent or make it bigger? >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> Katie >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> Katie Wester-Neal >> > > >> > > >>> University of Georgia >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> ________________________________________ >> > > >> > > >>> From: >> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> > > >> > > >>> < >> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> > > >> > > >> on behalf of Ed Wall < ewall@umich.edu> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 3:00 PM >> > > >> > > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> > > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> Greg >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> I agree with much of what you write below. However, there may >> be >> > > >> > > >>> a >> > > >> > > >> disjunct between what you think is happening (and in many instances >> I >> > > >> > > >> agree with you) and the shape of the denting I am speaking about. I >> > > >> > > >> begin my methods courses talking about the commitments I bring to >> > > >> > > >> teaching (stressing they are mine and that teachers and pre-service >> > > >> > > >> teachers are welcome to push back) >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> 1. I believe in promoting collective student and teacher > > >>> >> engagement >> > > >> > > >> i(and I meant both!) >> > > >> > > >>> 2. I believe in having students do substantial mathematical work >> > > >> > > >>> (and >> > > >> > > >> that is where the constraints of the context can come into play - >> > > >> > > >> don't necessarily read into this 'new math' or tedious > > >> >> computations) >> > > >> > > >>> 3. I believe in taking my students' thinking seriously (this >> > > >> > > >>> includes >> > > >> > > >> (mis)understandings!!) >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> I have yet, by the way, to find an instance (and that includes >> > > >> > > >>> school >> > > >> > > >> location and students, testing, whatever) where such commitments > >> > >> are >> > > >> > > >> impossible or, in a pragmatic sense, even moderately difficult > > >> >> (most >> > > >> > > >> often the difficulty is learning to value one's students which is >> > > >> > > >> more of a choice although one needs to be aware of the > > >> >> possibility). >> > > >> > > >> I would very much appreciate your suggesting some instances where >> > > >> > > >> such commitments were situationally impossible. My students and I >> > > >> > > >> (teachers and pre-service >> > > >> > > >> teachers) then spend a semester (and perhaps more) together - with >> > > >> > > >> feedback from classroom and field experiences - figuring out what >> > > >> > > >> kind of teaching (keeping in mind my commitments) can be sustained >> > > >> > > >> (and it will differ and they need to know this and accommodate to >> > > >> > > >> this). I am not unusual (perhaps read 'rare' - smile). In fact I >> have >> > > >> > > >> a number of colleagues who are considerably more capable. >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> Philip Jackson (or was it Dan Lortie) used to talk about the >> > > >> > > >> apprenticeship of observation. People, he argued, learn to teach - >> > > >> > > >> for the most part - by observing as students in regular classroom. >> > > >> > > >> That should give one pause for a variety of reasons. I have sat >> > > >> > > >> through numerous faculty meetings where students are mentioned in >> > > >> > > >> less than a respectful fashion (and have heard anecdotes where that >> > > >> > > >> carried into the college classroom). I have heard elementary >> teachers >> > > >> > > >> spoken of quite disparagingly by faculty in Arts & Sciences and, >> > > >> > > >> while I agree their expertise is not always of the highest >> 'academic' >> > > >> > > >> quality, it is not clear to me that, in their own field of study, >> > > >> > > >> they are not more capable than their detractors. I have also seen >> > > >> an >> > > >> > > >> instructor continually stress 'nice' or 'comfortable' rather than >> > > 'challenging' or 'uncomfortable.' >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> I admit my commitments have hooks in them; for instance, what >> is >> > > >> > > >> substantial mathematics (you need to know some mathematics to > > >> >> figure >> > > >> > > >> this out); what is collective teacher and student engagement (you >> > > >> > > >> need to know some pedagogy to figure this out) and what does it > >> > >> mean >> > > >> > > >> to respect student thinking in view of the previous (you need to >> know >> > > >> > > >> some mathematics and some pedagogy to figure this out). However, >> they >> > > >> > > >> are a beginning and some of my students seem, in time, to grow into >> > them >> > > no matter the situation. >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> Anyway, I can't say I'm blissfully optimistic, but I'm not >> > > >> > > >> pessimistic either. I do know that culturally we often don't work >> > > >> > > >> together; that we tend to get mired in the trivial; and we often >> > > >> > > >> 'demonize' the stranger. I hate to think that we will never choose >> > > >> > > >> otherwise. However, to choose otherwise seems very far from >> > > >> > > >> impossible in the formal schooling context. >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> Ed >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Greg Thompson >> > > >> > > >>> < greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> wrote: >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>>> Ed, >> > > >> > > >>>> Thanks for this wonderfully thoughtful reply. Very helpful. >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> As for the teaching practices part, I entirely agree about the >> need >> > > >> > > >>>> for thoughtful attention to teaching practices and agree that >> great >> > > >> > > >>>> things >> > > >> > > >> can >> > > >> > > >>>> be accomplished locally. My sense, though, is that it takes great >> > > >> > > >> effort to >> > > >> > > >>>> sustain such smaller scale interventions (i.e. to make more than >> > > >>>> a >> > > >> > > >> dent). >> > > >> > > >>>> With regard to teaching practices, I would think that the way to >> > > >> > > >> approach a >> > > >> > > >>>> thoughtful teaching practice would be to start with the real >> > > >> > > >> constraints of >> > > >> > > >>>> context that teachers will regularly face and then try and figure >> > > >> > > >>>> out >> > > >> > > >> what >> > > >> > > >>>> kinds of teaching can be sustained given those constraints. >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> That's where I'm most pessimistic. It is difficult for me to >> > > >> > > >>>> imagine developing responsible teaching practices that could be >> > > >> > > >>>> sustained on a larger scale given the cultural, institutional, > >> > >>>> and >> > > >> > > >>>> ideological context >> > > >> > > >> of >> > > >> > > >>>> schooling in the U.S. [and I might add that it seems like the >> > > >> > > >>>> history of teaching practice in the U.S. is a history where the >> > > >> > > >>>> same good ideas >> > > >> > > >> keep >> > > >> > > >>>> popping up and then fading from sight almost as quickly as they >> > > >> > > >> appeared]. >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> But I'm certainly open to ideas/suggestions for thoughtful >> > > >> > > >>>> pedagogical practices that are sustainable in the U.S. formal >> > > schooling >> > > context. >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> -greg >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Ed Wall < > ewall@umich.edu >> > > >> > > >> > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> Comments below >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Greg Thompson >> > > >> > > >>>>> > > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> wrote: >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> I was hoping that somebody might be able to comment on the >> > > >> > > >>>>>> situation >> > > >> > > >> of >> > > >> > > >>>>>> schooling in Japan and whether or not these hypotheses about > >> > >>>>>> the >> > > >> > > >> Japanese >> > > >> > > >>>>>> situation of schooling might bear out: >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> 1. Teachers in Japan have time to develop their craft. 600 >> annual >> > > >> > > >> hours >> > > >> > > >>>>> of >> > > >> > > >>>>>> contact time for teachers in Japan vs. 1100 hours of contact >> time >> > > >> > > >>>>>> in >> > > >> > > >> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>> U.S. >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> Yes >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> 2. There is an ideology of childhood in Japan that values >> > > >> > > >>>>>> childhood >> > > >> > > >>>>> greatly >> > > >> > > >>>>>> and treats them as qualitatively distinct beings from >> adolescents >> > > >> > > >>>>>> and adults, and thus suggests that they should be protected > >> > >>>>>> from >> > > >> > > >>>>>> the cruel >> > > >> > > >>>>> and >> > > >> > > >>>>>> harsh practice of "testing". But this also means that > > >> >>>>>> elementary >> > > >> > > >> school >> > > >> > > >>>>>> teachers are held in high regard. >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> Yes. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that this is why >> > > >> > > >>>>> elementary school teachers are held in high regard >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> I guess the first seems a bit more factual but the second is >> more >> > > >> > > >>>>>> of >> > > >> > > >> an >> > > >> > > >>>>>> hypothesis, but if they bear out as important factors for >> > > >> > > >>>>>> enabling the >> > > >> > > >>>>> kind >> > > >> > > >>>>>> of learning that Green describes, then it seems to me that even >> > > >> > > >>>>>> if >> > > >> > > >> there >> > > >> > > >>>>>> were to be a huge push for training teachers in the U.S., >> > > >> > > >>>>>> teachers >> > > >> > > >> would >> > > >> > > >>>>>> quickly revert to what we currently lament about teaching in > >> > >>>>>> the >> > > U.S. >> > > >> > > >> not >> > > >> > > >>>>>> because they are bad teachers or don't know how to teach in the >> > > >> > > >>>>>> more complex manner but rather simply because, with some rare >> > > >> > > >>>>>> exceptions, >> > > >> > > >> it >> > > >> > > >>>>> is >> > > >> > > >>>>>> IMPOSSIBLE to teach in the more desirable manner given the >> > > >> > > >>>>>> ridiculous amount of contact time and the fact that in the >> > > >> > > >>>>>> American ideology of childhood, the teaching of children is not >> > > valued particularly highly. >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> This doesn't follow. It is possible and it is possible in highly >> > > >> > > >>>>> urban areas (and I amy misunderstand you use of the word > > >> >>>>> 'rare'). >> > > >> > > >>>>> That >> > > >> > > >> doesn't >> > > >> > > >>>>> mean that it is necessarily valued or supported by the >> > > powers-that-be. >> > > >> > > >>>>> There are a few more things to add to your facts: There is a >> > > >> > > >>>>> national curriculum in Japan and there is a reasonably effective >> > > >> > > >>>>> mentoring >> > > >> > > >> system >> > > >> > > >>>>> (largely teacher instigated). A 'fact' (and perhaps this is >> > > >> > > >>>>> anecdotal) >> > > >> > > >> is >> > > >> > > >>>>> that when it was first realized that some interesting things > >> > >>>>> were >> > > >> > > >> happening >> > > >> > > >>>>> in Japanese schools (e.g. lesson study), the collegiate Japanese >> > > >> > > >> community >> > > >> > > >>>>> was caught, to a large degree, unaware. 'Master' lesson are >> > > >> > > >>>>> published >> > > >> > > >> by >> > > >> > > >>>>> teachers. >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> In light of this, it seems a Sisyphean feat to try to change >> > > teachers' >> > > >> > > >>>>>> teaching practices without changing the cultural context in >> which >> > > >> > > >> those >> > > >> > > >>>>>> teachers work. And changing cultural contexts is perhaps even >> > > >> > > >>>>>> more difficult still. >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> That was why I suggested a look at the Netherlands (which seem >> > > >>>>> to >> > > >> > > >>>>> do as well or better than the Japanese). Of course, some of this >> > > >> > > >>>>> can still be explained because of cultural differences and how >> > > teachers are viewed. >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Maybe we should stop looking to teaching practices in formal >> > > >> > > >> schooling in >> > > >> > > >>>>>> the U.S. as a site of change? >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Maybe better to look outside and beyond schools altogether? >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> Perhaps we should do as you suggest (and, to a limited extent > >> > >>>>> and >> > > >> > > >>>>> in a sense, something like this has been done). However, it > > >> >>>>> might >> > > >> > > >>>>> also be a >> > > >> > > >> good >> > > >> > > >>>>> idea to look at teaching practices in a thoughtful way. I have >> > > >> > > >>>>> seen >> > > >> > > >> very >> > > >> > > >>>>> little of this happening over the years. I was just talking to a >> > > >> > > >> colleague >> > > >> > > >>>>> today and, although we love our work in urban areas, we admit to >> > > >> > > >>>>> making only a small dent. We also admit to being underwhelmed by >> > > >> > > >>>>> views of education prevalent in many schools of education. It is >> > > >> > > >>>>> getting >> > > >> > > >> steadily >> > > >> > > >>>>> worse. >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Too pessimistic? >> > > >> > > >>>>>> -greg >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> Pessimism is fine, but simply pessimism can be self limiting; >> > > >> > > >>>>> however, that is an opinion and not a fact. >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> Ed >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:02 AM, Ed Wall < > > ewall@umich.edu> >> > > >> > > ewall@umich.edu> wrote: >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> Perhaps something of interest re this thread. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> Ed Wall >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >> < >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >> > > > >> > > >> > > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/joe-nocera-teaching-teachin >> > > >> > > >> > > >> g.html?_r=0 >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> Some general comments (and I apologize for being so late to >> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> conversation as I have been out of email contact) >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> Magdalen Lampert and Deborah Ball were both at Michigan State >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> in the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> late 80s. They both taught what might, in part, be an early >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> version >> > > >> > > >> of >> > > >> > > >>>>> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> Common Core to their students. I also taught math methods >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> beginning >> > > >> > > >> in >> > > >> > > >>>>> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> late 90s and also emphasized such an approach (I also did >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> similar as >> > > >> > > >> a >> > > >> > > >>>>> K-12 >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> math teacher before moving onto college teaching). There is >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> little >> > > >> > > >> 'new' >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> math in the Common Core - perhaps a bit of 'old' math. > > >> >>>>>>> However, >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> there >> > > >> > > >>>>> is a >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> very strong emphasis on kids making sense out of what they are >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> doing >> > > >> > > >> (I >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> apologize for being brief, but this is a moment between >> meetings >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> at a conference devoted to such 'strange' notions as helping >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> kids making >> > > >> > > >>>>> sense). >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> There are problems with the Common Core as written down: it >> > > >>>>>>>> is >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> being >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> forced down teachers' throats; it has been tied into high >> stakes >> > > >> > > >> testing >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> (which, by the way, occurs at places in a student's life in >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> Japan); >> > > >> > > >>>>> there >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> are some debatable differences in the age sequencing of > > >> >>>>>>> topics; >> > > >> > > >>>>> teachers to >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> be have often not been prepared for such teaching in their >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> college >> > > >> > > >>>>> courses; >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> and more. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> Some of these problems may be ironed out with time; however, >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> training and culture of teaching (see Jackson and Lortie, even >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> if >> > > >> > > >>>>> somewhat >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> dated) in the US is still a bit grim. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> So a few summary points: >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> Teaching that is, more or less, in sync with the Common Core >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> has >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> been practiced for years in the US. Teacher training that is >> > > >>>>>>> in >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> sync >> > > >> > > >>>>> with >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> the Common Core has been available for years in the US. Lesson >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> study Japanese style may be more possible with an agreed upon >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> core >> > > >> > > >> (although >> > > >> > > >>>>> one >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> might look to the Netherlands to see what works well for them >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> rather >> > > >> > > >>>>> than >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> Japan). >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> An interesting question for those of us who are involved in >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> teacher >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> training might be "Why do so many teachers find the Common > >> > >>>>>>> Core >> > > >> > > >>>>> Standards >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> so threatening - factoring out the forcing and testing)?" What >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> (from >> > > >> > > >> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> 4th grade standards, for example): >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> . Use place value understanding and properties of > > >> >>>>>>>> operations >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> to >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> perform multi-digit arithmetic. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> . Make sense of problems and persevere in solving them >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> do some elementary teachers find difficult and threatening? >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> Again apologies for being very, very short about a very large >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> and >> > > >> > > >> very >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> complex problem. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> Ed >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 2:25 PM, Katherine Wester Neal >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> < wester@uga.edu> >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> wrote: >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> What an interesting article! I am thinking about the lack of >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> focus >> > > >> > > >> on >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> specific contexts in the article's discussion of teaching and >> > > >> > > >> learning >> > > >> > > >>>>> to >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> teach as a practicing teacher. Is it possible to go about such >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> change >> > > >> > > >>>>> (from >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> "old" math to new math or Common Core math) with little/no >> > > >> > > >> consideration >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> for what kinds of teaching might work in a particular school >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> culture >> > > >> > > >> or >> > > >> > > >>>>> the >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> social context of a given classroom? I think less of a >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> standardized approach (here, everyone do this) and more focus >> on >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> what works >> > > >> > > >> locally >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> (here are some ideas; now decide what might work for you) > > >> >>>>>>> might >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> help teachers learn to teach Common Core math in a way that >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> actually >> > > >> > > >> works in >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> their particular context. To adapt phrase from Magdalene >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> Lampert, it >> > > >> > > >>>>> might >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> bring about more sustainable change as they are "re-learning >> > > >> > > >> teaching" >> > > >> > > >>>>> in >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> their schools. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Because Common Core math is so different, perhaps this >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> re-learning >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> teaching requires a radical new approach instead of the same >> old >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> professional development. Learning through the Japanese >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> jugyokenkyu >> > > >> > > >>>>> method >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> sounds like it might be very useful, but there doesn't seem to >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> be a >> > > >> > > >> push >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> for reforming how teachers learn once they are in the field. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> (Except >> > > >> > > >>>>> that >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> if enough of their students fail the Common Core-aligned > > >> >>>>>>> tests, >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> they >> > > >> > > >>>>> will >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> eventually be out of a job.) >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> It seems nonsensical to implement incredibly high-stakes >> tests >> > > >> > > >> without >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> significant investment in re-learning teaching and with, as > >> > >>>>>>> far >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> as I >> > > >> > > >>>>> know, >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> no research on how to learn to teach Common Core as a >> practicing >> > > >> > > >>>>> teacher. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> I, too, wonder about how these issues are handled in Japan? >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Katie >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Katie Wester-Neal >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> University of Georgia >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> From: >> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu < >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd < >> > > >> > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 12:58 PM >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans >> Stink >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> at >> > > >> > > >>>>> Math? >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> On 28 July 2014 16:46, Greg Thompson >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>>> wrote: >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> [...] >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> These students had learned >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> incredibly well how to solve recipe Physics but they had no >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> idea >> > > >> > > >>>>> about >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> how >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> the basic principles of Physics worked. >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Greg, >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> I would say the ethics of the situation go deeper than > > >> >>>>>>>>> simply >> > > >> > > >>>>> (un)learnt >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities, but rather to the development of the student's >> > > >> > > >> creative >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> capabilities (or, rather, the stunting of them). >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Best, >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>> Huw >> > > >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>>> -- >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Assistant Professor >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >> > > >> > > >>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Brigham Young University >> > > >> > > >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >> > > >> > > >>>>>> >> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > >>>> -- >> > > >> > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > > >> > > >>>> Assistant Professor >> > > >> > > >>>> Department of Anthropology >> > > >> > > >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > > >> > > >>>> Brigham Young University >> > > >> > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >> > > >> > > >>>> >> > > >> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >>> >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > ... > > [Message clipped] From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Mon Aug 4 18:18:03 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:18:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may interest a student's engagement. Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple activities of fluent readers. Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social interactions. Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't even directly address motivation. for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a explanatory principle of human behavior. my two bits. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi everyone - Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens www.andrewcoppens.com From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 19:01:36 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:01:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Search on the homepage at Lchc.ucsd.edu for the word disability . Mike On Monday, August 4, 2014, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Jose > > Have you looked at volume 2 of the collected works? > > > http://www.springer.com/psychology/psychology+general/book/978-0-306-42442-7 > > Also, depending on your interest, the works of Luria may be of interest too > (e.g. his volume Restoration of function after brain injury). > > Best, > Huw > > > On 2 August 2014 20:14, jose david herazo > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > > Regards, > > > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > > Monter?a, Colombia > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 19:01:36 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:01:36 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotsky and dissability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Search on the homepage at Lchc.ucsd.edu for the word disability . Mike On Monday, August 4, 2014, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Jose > > Have you looked at volume 2 of the collected works? > > > http://www.springer.com/psychology/psychology+general/book/978-0-306-42442-7 > > Also, depending on your interest, the works of Luria may be of interest too > (e.g. his volume Restoration of function after brain injury). > > Best, > Huw > > > On 2 August 2014 20:14, jose david herazo > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Can anybody please suggest relevant sources on Vygotsky and dissability? > > YOur help will be very much appreciated. > > Regards, > > > > JOSE DAVID HERAZO RIVERA PhD. > > Assistant professor Universidad de C?rdoba > > Tel. (57) 4-7810166 > > Monter?a, Colombia > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Aug 4 19:03:15 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 02:03:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Phillip, So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial sector. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may interest a student's engagement. Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple activities of fluent readers. Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social interactions. Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't even directly address motivation. for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a explanatory principle of human behavior. my two bits. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi everyone - Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens www.andrewcoppens.com From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 19:21:45 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 20:21:45 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, I like your reverse engineering idea. And I like the idea of "intrinsic to the activity" too. But, I assume, it is only "intrinsic to the activity" with respect to an engaged (or not) subject? i.e. there must still be a "we" that is interested (and different "we's" can have different levels of interest in the same activity). I think this is implied in what you say but I'm not sure (esp. if "intrinsic" is put back (solely) in the activity). I guess I'm a little anxious here that the individual side of the individual/context unity is swallowed up by the activity. I should add that I've never been very good on the "activity" part of activity theory so maybe "activity" already includes subjectivities? Any help here would be greatly appreciated. -greg On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Phillip, > > So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know > what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses > people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? > And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it > in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we > do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the > activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get > from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior > to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they > say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then > why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It > really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math > work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math > work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former > and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial > sector. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it > (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my > own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university > teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or > extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student > not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of > engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a > student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may > interest a student's engagement. > > Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. > > Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, > worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage > and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple > activities of fluent readers. > > Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little > credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social > interactions. > > Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't > even directly address motivation. > > for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too > enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a > explanatory principle of human behavior. > > my two bits. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Hi everyone - > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Aug 4 20:11:57 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 03:11:57 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90254C6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Greg, While I'm approaching the concept of activity more from a Pragmatic perspective than an Activity theory perspective (although I'm not sure how much difference there is really) - activity is all we really have in the end. There is an I or we that is separate from the activity, and there is an object, a goal that is separate from the activity, but these are things we can't know and we should stop trying. All that we know is the activity itself. I mean if somebody is not interested in doing something there's nothing to observe. We can make up stories about it - about the object, about the individual - but the only thing we can observe is somebody engaging in something they are interested in it. And everybody is engaged in something. They may not be engaged in what you want them to be engaged in, but if they are doing something it is either habit or they are engaged. I remember when I was teaching English in Sheepshead Bay Brooklyn, they were interested in what I was peddling but that doesn't mean they were engaged. They were engaged in flirtations and comedy and showing their feathers and lunchroom politics and oneupmanship, and most of all making my life miserable - they were extraordinarily interested in these things and more. They just weren't engaged in the object the Board of Education told them to be engaged in so it didn't really exist in the classroom. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 10:21 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Michael, I like your reverse engineering idea. And I like the idea of "intrinsic to the activity" too. But, I assume, it is only "intrinsic to the activity" with respect to an engaged (or not) subject? i.e. there must still be a "we" that is interested (and different "we's" can have different levels of interest in the same activity). I think this is implied in what you say but I'm not sure (esp. if "intrinsic" is put back (solely) in the activity). I guess I'm a little anxious here that the individual side of the individual/context unity is swallowed up by the activity. I should add that I've never been very good on the "activity" part of activity theory so maybe "activity" already includes subjectivities? Any help here would be greatly appreciated. -greg On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Phillip, > > So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know > what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses > people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? > And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it > in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we > do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the > activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get > from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior > to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they > say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then > why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It > really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math > work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math > work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former > and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial > sector. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it > (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my > own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university > teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or > extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student > not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of > engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a > student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may > interest a student's engagement. > > Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. > > Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, > worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage > and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple > activities of fluent readers. > > Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little > credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social > interactions. > > Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't > even directly address motivation. > > for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too > enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a > explanatory principle of human behavior. > > my two bits. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Hi everyone - > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From glassman.13@osu.edu Mon Aug 4 20:15:06 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 03:15:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90254C6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90254C6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90254D6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> I meant below of course that the students were not at all interested in what I was peddling. But I kept peddling it, not because I love the activity of teaching but because I wanted the paycheck. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Glassman, Michael [glassman.13@osu.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 11:11 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi Greg, While I'm approaching the concept of activity more from a Pragmatic perspective than an Activity theory perspective (although I'm not sure how much difference there is really) - activity is all we really have in the end. There is an I or we that is separate from the activity, and there is an object, a goal that is separate from the activity, but these are things we can't know and we should stop trying. All that we know is the activity itself. I mean if somebody is not interested in doing something there's nothing to observe. We can make up stories about it - about the object, about the individual - but the only thing we can observe is somebody engaging in something they are interested in it. And everybody is engaged in something. They may not be engaged in what you want them to be engaged in, but if they are doing something it is either habit or they are engaged. I remember when I was teaching English in Sheepshead Bay Brooklyn, they were interested in what I was peddling but that doesn't mean they were engaged. They were engaged in flirtations and comedy and showing their feathers and lunchroom politics and oneupmanship, and most of all making my life miserable - they were extraordinarily interested in these things and more. They just weren't engaged in the object the Board of Education told them to be engaged in so it didn't really exist in the classroom. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 10:21 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Michael, I like your reverse engineering idea. And I like the idea of "intrinsic to the activity" too. But, I assume, it is only "intrinsic to the activity" with respect to an engaged (or not) subject? i.e. there must still be a "we" that is interested (and different "we's" can have different levels of interest in the same activity). I think this is implied in what you say but I'm not sure (esp. if "intrinsic" is put back (solely) in the activity). I guess I'm a little anxious here that the individual side of the individual/context unity is swallowed up by the activity. I should add that I've never been very good on the "activity" part of activity theory so maybe "activity" already includes subjectivities? Any help here would be greatly appreciated. -greg On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Phillip, > > So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know > what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses > people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? > And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it > in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we > do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the > activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get > from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior > to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they > say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then > why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It > really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math > work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math > work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former > and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial > sector. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it > (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my > own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university > teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or > extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student > not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of > engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a > student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may > interest a student's engagement. > > Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. > > Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, > worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage > and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple > activities of fluent readers. > > Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little > credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social > interactions. > > Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't > even directly address motivation. > > for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too > enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a > explanatory principle of human behavior. > > my two bits. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Hi everyone - > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 21:09:05 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 22:09:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90254C6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F90254C6@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, I love the example you offer of kids engaging in all sorts of shenanigans. This gives a concreteness to the ideas being discussed here. I wonder we might be able to merge that concreteness with the abstractness that is happening elsewhere on this thread? Can someone render an example like Michael's in Leontiev-ian terms? That would help me get a better handle on what these abstract notions of "activity" and object-motives are as well as how to deploy non-dualistic language to describe what is happening in some actual instance of "activity." Any concrete examples would be appreciated. I suspect that both Maria and Andrew probably have some very good concrete examples from each of their researches. I'm very curious to hear more...? -greg On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:11 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Hi Greg, > > While I'm approaching the concept of activity more from a Pragmatic > perspective than an Activity theory perspective (although I'm not sure how > much difference there is really) - activity is all we really have in the > end. There is an I or we that is separate from the activity, and there is > an object, a goal that is separate from the activity, but these are things > we can't know and we should stop trying. All that we know is the activity > itself. I mean if somebody is not interested in doing something there's > nothing to observe. We can make up stories about it - about the object, > about the individual - but the only thing we can observe is somebody > engaging in something they are interested in it. And everybody is engaged > in something. They may not be engaged in what you want them to be engaged > in, but if they are doing something it is either habit or they are engaged. > I remember when I was teaching English in Sheepshead Bay Brooklyn, they > were interested in what I was peddling but that doesn't mean they were > engaged. They were engaged in flirtations and comedy and showing their > feathers and lunchroom politics and oneupmanship, and most of all making my > life miserable - they were extraordinarily interested in these things and > more. They just weren't engaged in the object the Board of Education told > them to be engaged in so it didn't really exist in the classroom. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 10:21 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Michael, > I like your reverse engineering idea. > And I like the idea of "intrinsic to the activity" too. > But, I assume, it is only "intrinsic to the activity" with respect to an > engaged (or not) subject? i.e. there must still be a "we" that is > interested (and different "we's" can have different levels of interest in > the same activity). I think this is implied in what you say but I'm not > sure (esp. if "intrinsic" is put back (solely) in the activity). > I guess I'm a little anxious here that the individual side of the > individual/context unity is swallowed up by the activity. > I should add that I've never been very good on the "activity" part of > activity theory so maybe "activity" already includes subjectivities? > Any help here would be greatly appreciated. > -greg > > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Glassman, Michael > wrote: > > > Hi Phillip, > > > > So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know > > what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses > > people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with > interest? > > And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put > it > > in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we > > do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the > > activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get > > from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily > superior > > to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they > > say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then > > why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It > > really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math > > work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math > > work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former > > and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the > financial > > sector. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > > > i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it > > (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my > > own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university > > teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic > or > > extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student > > not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of > > engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to > "motivate" a > > student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may > > interest a student's engagement. > > > > Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. > > > > Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, > > worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage > > and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple > > activities of fluent readers. > > > > Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little > > credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social > > interactions. > > > > Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, > doesn't > > even directly address motivation. > > > > for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too > > enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure > as a > > explanatory principle of human behavior. > > > > my two bits. > > > > phillip > > > > > > Phillip White, PhD > > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > > Site Coordinator > > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > > or > > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > > > Hi everyone - > > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener > here. > > > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility > to > > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the > motivational > > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical > timing > > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming > the > > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even > hold > > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend > the > > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and > RM > > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive > is, I > > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the > subject/object-motive > > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the > mid-1990s. > > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would > coincide > > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights > from > > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > > Andrew > > > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 21:16:34 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 22:16:34 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andrew, I think your point about the segregation of children and workers from productive activities seems an important point to consider in the larger context of why psychologists have been so taken by the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I don't know Danziger but I wonder if there might also be something important that comes with separating children from productive work. Obviously something is lost here. But it seems that something is gained in the sense that children are, at least theoretically, freed from necessity. I say "at least theoretically" because in most cases, it is just the exchange of one necessity for another: the necessity to labor productively is exchanged for the necessity to get good grades. But there is the theoretical potential for real, engaging play. Also, I wonder if you could expand on this: "This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive." I'm not sure I follow whether or not you are pointing to a dialogical or dialectical relationship, or whether that is a distinction that matters to you? (some people make too big a deal about this distinction and others use the terms internchangeably so I'm just wondering what you mean by it - for my two bits, "mutual constitution" sounds more dialectical to me). But more importantly, I was wondering about the headway you are making in thinking about motivation. It sounded like there is more here and I'd love to hear more. Cheers, -greg p.s. I clipped the message so responses going forward won't have that terribly long thread trailing behind (although those threads can be useful for finding one's way back...). On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Andrew Coppens wrote: > Hi everyone - > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:14:30 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 14:14:30 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In Chapter Twelve of "History of the Development of the Higher Psychological Functions", Vygotsky makes a distinction between "motive" and "stimulus". To me, it's one of those distinctions that is very hard to pin down, because in life we almost always experience them together (like "doing" and "undergoing"), and in some ways Vygotsky's terminology is not particularly helpful (Vygotsky is in reactological mode, and he says that motive is a "reactive formation crystallized around a formation"). But the examples he gives are pretty useful. His first example is from Otto Neurath: it's the use of a "neutral stimulus" which is voluntarily given the status of motive (like when you agree to buy everybody lunch if it rains or when Korean kids solemnly undertake to write their names in the air with their buttocks if they lose a game). His second example is from William James: it's a patient who "raises his arm" to a doctor during an operation (or the famous writer Fanny Burney, who in the eighteenth century had a mastectomy without anaesthetic; the attendants all ran screaming from the room, and so Fanny had to hold her own severed breast for the doctor). His third example is Lewin's "quasi-need"--you don't know where to mail a letter so you just decide that you will mail it in the first mailbox you see, and just go out and wander around at random until you see one. In each case, Vygotsky says, there is a detachment of the motive from the stimulus. But there is also the reattachment of the motive to something that can be moved entirely away from what Leontiev would call the "operating conditions" of the operation; something which, for want of a better term, we can call a "self", an imaginary character we make up (in both senses of the word) to act in our place and to behave just a little bit more intelligently and more morally and more attractively than we normally would. It seems to me that a trichotomy here would be more useful than a dichotomy. First, there's the stimulus in all its horror and pain and fleeting pleasure. Second, there is the detachment of the motive from the stimulus, which seems to be what we mean when we first differentiate the "intrinsic" stimulus (the stimulus that makes the activity itself horrible or painful or pleasurable or interesting) from the "extrinsic" motive (the long term project that makes it in our interests despite all the horror and pain and even the pleasure and short-term interest). From this point of view, extrinsic motivation is a big step forward, because a child be confronted with some final version of development which can be idealized, speechified, and moved to the beginning of an action and can assume a planning function. But then, thirdly, extrinsic motivation somehow has to be reattached and interiorized. So...my question is--is the "final form" of development only ever part of the second moment of extrinsic motivation, or does it have an important role to play in the creation of the self? (When Andy says that the project to project relation is what forms a personality, he seems to be saying that it does! But is a role model...or an ideal draft of a self--really a "project'?) David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 5 August 2014 13:16, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andrew, > > I think your point about the segregation of children and workers from > productive activities seems an important point to consider in the larger > context of why psychologists have been so taken by the intrinsic/extrinsic > dichotomy. I don't know Danziger but I wonder if there might also be > something important that comes with separating children from productive > work. Obviously something is lost here. But it seems that something is > gained in the sense that children are, at least theoretically, freed from > necessity. I say "at least theoretically" because in most cases, it is just > the exchange of one necessity for another: the necessity to labor > productively is exchanged for the necessity to get good grades. But there > is the theoretical potential for real, engaging play. > > Also, I wonder if you could expand on this: > "This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive." > > I'm not sure I follow whether or not you are pointing to a dialogical or > dialectical relationship, or whether that is a distinction that matters to > you? (some people make too big a deal about this distinction and others use > the terms internchangeably so I'm just wondering what you mean by it - for > my two bits, "mutual constitution" sounds more dialectical to me). > > But more importantly, I was wondering about the headway you are making in > thinking about motivation. It sounded like there is more here and I'd love > to hear more. > > Cheers, > -greg > p.s. I clipped the message so responses going forward won't have that > terribly long thread trailing behind (although those threads can be useful > for finding one's way back...). > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Andrew Coppens wrote: > > > Hi everyone - > > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener > here. > > > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility > to > > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the > motivational > > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical > timing > > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming > the > > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even > hold > > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend > the > > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and > RM > > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive > is, I > > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the > subject/object-motive > > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the > mid-1990s. > > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would > coincide > > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights > from > > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > > Andrew > > > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Aug 5 05:23:24 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 06:23:24 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, for sure i think that we can use other words than motivation. the way motivation is used is very much in the paradigm of stimulus - response. or, direct cause and effect. as an explanatory principle, the theories of motivation treat people as pool balls - this is Bateson's idea - that people are predictable and will behave in particular ways due to particular motivations. and, it seems to me that the only evidence we have for motivation is after the fact - motivation as positive or negative is only ascribed after the activity, as a way of explaining someone's behavior. my own experience is that attempting to define and provide evidence for the existence of motivation is about as useful as defining and providing evidence for a holy trinity. in other words, some explanations for human behavior often lead us into explanations of a supernatural world. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael [glassman.13@osu.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 8:03 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi Phillip, So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial sector. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may interest a student's engagement. Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple activities of fluent readers. Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social interactions. Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't even directly address motivation. for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a explanatory principle of human behavior. my two bits. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi everyone - Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens www.andrewcoppens.com From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 06:22:32 2014 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 22:22:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Moreno and Vygotsky Message-ID: Estimate Colleagues, Does anyone knows if Vygotsky had any contact with Jacob Levy Moreno? Thank you for your attention. Wagner From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Tue Aug 5 07:42:38 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:42:38 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Greg and Andy, Thank you for your comments. Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of overcoming our western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian dualism. Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities in what follow. About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) instead of individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) dimensions of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); c) motives instead of motivation. However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and the ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I need to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this Cartesian world. My dissertation research has been on older workers (OW) and learning in the industrial sector. I wanted to highlight the subjective dimension in the case of OW? workplace learning. (I use this locution instead of ?the subjectivity of the OW *in* workplace learning?, that is, a noun of a *thing* *in* a context). As I said in my previous email, I have used the Leontiev?s conceptualisation of subjectivity which leads to use the concept of motives instead of the one of motivation. The concept of motives is very useful because it is behind activity and it is the same concept that we can use to analyse the subjective dimension of an activity. I have analyzed two industrial firms and their objects of activity ? the latter is the Leontiev?s concept of object-oriented activity. I have elaborated the concept of ?strategy of production? and argued that the strategy of production is the object of an industrial activity. I have reviewed the industrial sociological literature to list the most important strategies of production. The most famous is maybe the mass production, that strategy of production which aims at producing a large quantity of goods by organizing the production through the assembly line. One of the two firms on which I have carried out one of my embedded case studies is driven by this model of strategy of production. I call this firm E1. I am now trying to provide a taste of the concrete analysis that I have done in my research work: Ms D is an older worker and works at the assembly line in the enterprise E1 oriented to the strategy of production of mass production (that is, the object of the activity of E1). In her interview she talks about her professional and family life. She talks with passion about the importance of quality in assembling parts in her workplace. She tells that she ?acquired? (Kantian and computational language about knowledge and the possibility of ?acquiring? knowledge) the interest in the quality through the many training courses she had to attend at the beginning of her working life in the 1960s. But immediately after this utterance, she seems to correct herself and says that she have been having this interest for quality ?in herself?. She seems to swing between two ways of looking at this: something *external* that she acquired/ something which has been *inside* her from the beginning. These two ways of looking at the issue corresponds to the behavioural and cognitivist approaches. This is interesting because shows how she is using the conceptual tools provided by the dominant collective discourses. If I use my theoretical framework to interpret Ms D?s passion for quality of the production, I would say that it comes from the internalization of the motive of quality in the 1960s, when the firm was more oriented to the quality of production. It is also possible that her interest-motive for quality comes from her activity at home. She looks as a very well-groomed woman. Everything seems to say that she likes ?quality?. Today the global completion is hurting the firm E1. Its strategy of production is dominated by the quantity value and less by the quality value. Ms D was struggling with this contradiction (she has now retired): she wanted to keep caring with quality, but the firm to which she belonged have moved toward a different strategy of production. Her externalization of the motive of quality entered in tension with the new object of the activity (or project) of E1. Where have she learned to be how she is showing to be? We can see that Ms D has been participating in many different activities. Where is that Ms D begins as human being and where is that the firm E1 begins? I can see that part of Ms D is part of the history of this firm E1. The firm also exists because a part of this is made of Ms D and her passion for quality. In short, we could say that the quality as a motive governs both: the life of Ms D and the firm E1 (more in the past, less now). In conclusion ? to answer to the Greg?s questions - the solution I have developed so far to adapt my language to a non-dualistic one is the one of adopting a) an interdisciplinary approach to increase the range of interpretative conceptual tools; b) a design research based on multiple embedded case studies and narratives to collect data about the various dimensions of the phenomenon of older workers and learning and c) the use of concept as motive which is common to the subjective dimension and the collective and material dimension of activity. Hope this post can help Greg. Cristina (my name is Maria-Cristina, a double name which is unusual in the Anglo-Saxon culture. Between Maria and Cristina, I definitely prefer to be called Cristina :-) ) 2014-08-05 14:23 GMT+02:00 White, Phillip : > Michael, for sure i think that we can use other words than motivation. > > the way motivation is used is very much in the paradigm of stimulus - > response. or, direct cause and effect. as an explanatory principle, the > theories of motivation treat people as pool balls - this is Bateson's idea > - that people are predictable and will behave in particular ways due to > particular motivations. > > and, it seems to me that the only evidence we have for motivation is after > the fact - motivation as positive or negative is only ascribed after the > activity, as a way of explaining someone's behavior. > > my own experience is that attempting to define and provide evidence for > the existence of motivation is about as useful as defining and providing > evidence for a holy trinity. in other words, some explanations for human > behavior often lead us into explanations of a supernatural world. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael [glassman.13@osu.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 8:03 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Hi Phillip, > > So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know > what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses > people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? > And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it > in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we > do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the > activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get > from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior > to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they > say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then > why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It > really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math > work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math > work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former > and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial > sector. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it > (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my > own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university > teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or > extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student > not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of > engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a > student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may > interest a student's engagement. > > Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. > > Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, > worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage > and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple > activities of fluent readers. > > Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little > credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social > interactions. > > Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't > even directly address motivation. > > for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too > enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a > explanatory principle of human behavior. > > my two bits. > > phillip > > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Hi everyone - > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > Andrew > > --- > Andrew D. Coppens > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From ablunden@mira.net Tue Aug 5 08:07:25 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 01:07:25 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Cristina, There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have to. Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. For example, my development is not the same the development some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post though. I said that the relation between projects was the crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person and a project they are committed to is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these two together. Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation between the worker's project of providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motives, too. That's more than enough. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Greg and Andy, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of overcoming our > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian dualism. > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities in what > follow. > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) instead of > individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) dimensions > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); c) > motives instead of motivation. > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and the > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I need > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this > Cartesian world. > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 11:00:20 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:00:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories of the human sciences? If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. Confused. -greg On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Cristina, > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email list. What > I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think I can respond to > and ignore the rest. OK? > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages like > Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words and other > gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can be underestimated. > Sure, one must use specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a > specialised collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try and make up > words and concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have to. > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first treated > consciousness as an object of science, and the many of those belonging to > the dualist tradition he was part of wound up being burnt at the stake for > suggesting that the world was not necessarily identical to how it seemed. > So I'd say, better to suffer association with Descartes than make up words > and expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the 1930s was > not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > For example, my development is not the same the development some project > makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate that without > degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something I said which was wrong > in my earlier post though. I said that the relation between projects was > the crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. As Jean > Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person and a project they > are committed to is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these > two together. > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't agree at > all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his dichotomy between > 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the hegemonic power in the > given social formation, and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, > is in my view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for us. > The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of the object? It is > the object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut motives. Over > and above the relation between the worker's project of providing for his > family (or whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the proportion > of the social labour subsumed under his/her capital. The relation between > these two projects doubtless seems to the boss to be the difference between > the worker's subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motives, too. > > That's more than enough. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > >> Greg and Andy, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of overcoming our >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian dualism. >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities in what >> follow. >> >> >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) instead >> of >> individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) dimensions >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); c) >> motives instead of motivation. >> >> >> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and the >> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I need >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this >> Cartesian world. >> >> >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 11:19:10 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:19:10 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing about it! -greg On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair enough to > try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones who do > this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - subject/object, > mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories of the > human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose some > significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email list. What >> I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think I can respond to >> and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages like >> Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words and other >> gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can be underestimated. >> Sure, one must use specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a >> specialised collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try and make up >> words and concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first treated >> consciousness as an object of science, and the many of those belonging to >> the dualist tradition he was part of wound up being burnt at the stake for >> suggesting that the world was not necessarily identical to how it seemed. >> So I'd say, better to suffer association with Descartes than make up words >> and expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the 1930s was >> not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development some project >> makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate that without >> degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something I said which was wrong >> in my earlier post though. I said that the relation between projects was >> the crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. As Jean >> Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person and a project they >> are committed to is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these >> two together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't agree >> at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his dichotomy >> between 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the hegemonic power in >> the given social formation, and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, >> motives, is in my view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful >> for us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of the >> object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut >> motives. Over and above the relation between the worker's project of >> providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's project of >> expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless seems to the >> boss to be the difference between the worker's subjective, secret, >> self-interest, and his own "objective" motive. But his point of view is not >> necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >>> Greg and Andy, >>> >>> Thank you for your comments. >>> >>> >>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of overcoming >>> our >>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian dualism. >>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities in what >>> follow. >>> >>> >>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to >>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) instead >>> of >>> individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) >>> dimensions >>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); c) >>> motives instead of motivation. >>> >>> >>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and the >>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I need >>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this >>> Cartesian world. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 14:06:58 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 22:06:58 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: Evening everyone, It's lovely to see the lively discussions going on. Sorry I don't have much time to chip in. Here are some additional references which may make some more work for you. But then, if you're trying to understand motive, it means you're not work shy... 1) LSV's chapter on self-control does, I think, a great job in introducing key technical factors pertaining to motivation, particularly with respect to voluntary and involuntary processes. Vygotsky, L.S. (1997) Self-Control. In: R. W. Rieber (ed.) The Collected Works of L. S. Vygotsky, Vol. 4, The History of the Development of Higher Mental Functions. New York: Plenum Press 2) V. Repkin's article on Learning Activity, in which early on he positions learning activity in relation to other kinds of activities and desicribes how they can be distinguished Repkin, V. V. (2003) Developmental Teaching and Learning Activity. Journal of Russian and East European Psychology. 41(5), pp. 10-33 I would say that there are numerous ways to "get at" motive but I'm actually in the process of trying to "operationalise" and articulate some of these. I would expect that the scope of attention and the affect pertinent to activity (e.g. stemming from interruption) are additional means of determining the object of activity, in addition to looking at the structure itself (goals). On the point of motives (plural), the intellectual conclusion I have reached is that motive as an involuntary thing is only discrete in a pragmatic sense by which the motive shows itself in terms of ways to deal with it, i.e. motives as discrete and different things is real to us only as a manifest contradition of motives but that the contradiction pertains to struggling with what method (plan) to choose in addressing the present aggregate of motives (if considered distinct from a plan). I am not entierly sure of this, but what seems practical to me is that one can look over the nebulous affect of the motive and attend to the structure of the motive (as an object of activity) to discern what the motive is. I think this is because we can say that the affect-need chooses (blindly but with progressive accuracy) the structure that best fits its needs. But this might be more difficult to swallow on the part of those outside the theory looking in. For the people who like Bateson or those who like references to experimental philosophy the Vygotsky paper is quite good too. Its as close as Vygotksy probably gets to saying "typological error in categorisation of psycho-social process of a manifest illness" comparing, say, Bateson on schizophrenia with Vygotsky on hysteria. I have a copy of the Repkin paper, which I can send to our esteemed moderatory for dispersal if he's able to negotiate the copyright minefield. Best, Huw On 5 August 2014 19:19, Greg Thompson wrote: > And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us on > why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. > Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing about > it! > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Andy, > > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair enough to > > try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones who do > > this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - subject/object, > > mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories of the > > human sciences? > > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose some > > significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > > Confused. > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > >> Cristina, > >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email list. > What > >> I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think I can respond to > >> and ignore the rest. OK? > >> > >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages like > >> Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words and other > >> gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can be > underestimated. > >> Sure, one must use specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a > >> specialised collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try and make up > >> words and concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have > to. > >> > >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first treated > >> consciousness as an object of science, and the many of those belonging > to > >> the dualist tradition he was part of wound up being burnt at the stake > for > >> suggesting that the world was not necessarily identical to how it > seemed. > >> So I'd say, better to suffer association with Descartes than make up > words > >> and expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the 1930s > was > >> not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > >> > >> For example, my development is not the same the development some project > >> makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate that without > >> degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something I said which was > wrong > >> in my earlier post though. I said that the relation between projects was > >> the crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. As > Jean > >> Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person and a project they > >> are committed to is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take > these > >> two together. > >> > >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't agree > >> at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his dichotomy > >> between 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the hegemonic > power in > >> the given social formation, and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, > >> motives, is in my view a product of the times he lived in, and not > useful > >> for us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of the > >> object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking > abut > >> motives. Over and above the relation between the worker's project of > >> providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's project of > >> expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless seems to the > >> boss to be the difference between the worker's subjective, secret, > >> self-interest, and his own "objective" motive. But his point of view is > not > >> necessarily ours. > >> > >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motives, > too. > >> > >> That's more than enough. > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > >> > >>> Greg and Andy, > >>> > >>> Thank you for your comments. > >>> > >>> > >>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of overcoming > >>> our > >>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian dualism. > >>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities in what > >>> follow. > >>> > >>> > >>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to > >>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) > instead > >>> of > >>> individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) > >>> dimensions > >>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); > c) > >>> motives instead of motivation. > >>> > >>> > >>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and > the > >>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I > need > >>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this > >>> Cartesian world. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 14:53:39 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 21:53:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Intrinsic_motivation=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: , , <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, Message-ID: <53e154e6.43d7440a.56fe.7bd1@mx.google.com> Michael, I appreciated your question: And can we take the concept ofintrinsic out of the individual and put it in the activity itself? in conjunction with the statement: Do we do the math work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial sector. This leads to the notion of *undergoing* an event in which we are *carried along* by the [subject matter]. It is THIS *matter* that matters if we are moving into a dialogical notion of participating within conversations where the subject matter [die Sache] is engaged with AS IF engaged within *play* From this *mode* of consciousness play is not in opposition to *labour* but can be a way of transforming our practices/praxis to be understood as *undergoing* the subject matter at hand. Motivation and motives are from this *mode* experienced as engaged in the *play* activity [the subject matter [die Sache] and motives are MOVES within INTRINSIC engagement Larry Sent from Windows Mail From: White, Phillip Sent: ?Tuesday?, ?August? ?5?, ?2014 ?5?:?23? ?AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Michael, for sure i think that we can use other words than motivation. the way motivation is used is very much in the paradigm of stimulus - response. or, direct cause and effect. as an explanatory principle, the theories of motivation treat people as pool balls - this is Bateson's idea - that people are predictable and will behave in particular ways due to particular motivations. and, it seems to me that the only evidence we have for motivation is after the fact - motivation as positive or negative is only ascribed after the activity, as a way of explaining someone's behavior. my own experience is that attempting to define and provide evidence for the existence of motivation is about as useful as defining and providing evidence for a holy trinity. in other words, some explanations for human behavior often lead us into explanations of a supernatural world. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael [glassman.13@osu.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 8:03 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi Phillip, So can we reverse engineer the idea of motivation (I actually don't know what that means but I like the way it sounds and I'm hoping it impresses people). But can we take the word motivation and replace it with interest? And can we take the concept of intrinsic out of the individual and put it in the activity itself? So we do an activity for one of two reasons - we do it because we are interested in the activity itself, or we do the activity because we are interested in the external rewards we might get from doing the activity. One form of interest is not necessarily superior to the other in getting individuals to accomplish a task - but, as they say, sooner or later the candy man is going to get up and leave, and then why would you keep doing the task it there is not outside reward? It really does double back to the mathematics discussion. Do we do the math work because we just have to know how it turns out or do we do the math work because we like the rewards we get for doing a good job. The former and we're always playing with math, the latter and we go into the financial sector. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 9:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? i enjoyed reading your posting, Andrew, and would like to add to it (realizing that this may not be a path you wish to venture on) - in my own experience as an elementary school teacher, as well as a university teacher, i have lost any faith in the notion of "motivation", intrinsic or extrinsic. regardless of the age of the student, when i notice a student not participating, i consider the lack of participation as a lack of engagement. that way, i don't have to see myself as having to "motivate" a student, but rather to provide multiple alternative activities which may interest a student's engagement. Bateson, as far as i know, never addresses the notion of motivation. Marie Clay, who worked with students who failed to engage in reading, worked out a wealth of activities in which the student could both engage and internalize self-monitoring behaviors that strengthened the multiple activities of fluent readers. Holland, et al, in Identity and Agency in Cultural Worlds gives little credence to motivation, seeing motivation as "formed" through social interactions. Michael Cole in Cultural Psychology: A once and future discipline, doesn't even directly address motivation. for me as a teacher, the conceptual framework of motivation is too enveloped in Skinnerian behaviorism, and is an epistemological failure as a explanatory principle of human behavior. my two bits. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andrew Coppens [acoppens@ucsc.edu] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:46 PM To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Hi everyone - Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener here. I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility to productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the motivational affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical timing between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming the Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even hold water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend the idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and RM Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the mid-1990s. Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would coincide with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights from Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, Andrew --- Andrew D. Coppens www.andrewcoppens.com From ablunden@mira.net Tue Aug 5 17:54:41 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:54:41 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external reward." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motivation. > Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I > know nothing about it! > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > of the human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Cristina, > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > about it if you have to. > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > For example, my development is not the same the development > some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > though. I said that the relation between projects was the > crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > and a project they are committed to is equally important, > their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motives, too. > > That's more than enough. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > Greg and Andy, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > of overcoming our > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > Cartesian dualism. > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > activities in what > follow. > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > to prefer to > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > Wertsh) instead of > individual and activity (or context or project) > development; b) dimensions > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > (micro-meso-macro); c) > motives instead of motivation. > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > language and the > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > world and I need > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > made of this > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Tue Aug 5 18:06:59 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:06:59 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E17FB3.6050203@mira.net> Descartes, along with his fellow dualists Galileo and Copernicus, did have some problems, which took about 200 years to sort out. (I don't count Spinoza as having resolved them). The main difficulty was that he (the others didn't get this far) tried to resolve the mind/matter problem *natural-scientifically* (which is what many of his professional critics do, despite the benefit of 380 years experience), rather than distinguishing between the ontological and epistemological problems, which is what Vygotsky advises. But what is quite unhelpful, in my view, is resolving the problem of dualism by declaring it bad and simply denying it. And as you say, "we Westerners" are far from alone, in believing that there is a categorical difference between my thought of the world and the world itself. Thank Christ for that! Do deny this simple observation is the definition of insanity. Most people simply don't understand the question which Descartes was trying to answer. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair enough > to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones who > do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories of > the human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose some > significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Cristina, > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think > I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages > like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words > and other gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can > be underestimated. Sure, one must use specialised jargon > sometimes, to communicate to a specialised collaborator in a > shared discipline, but generally that is because the jargon has > itself a long track record. Don't try and make up words and > concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have to. > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound up > being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was not > necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better to > suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > For example, my development is not the same the development some > project makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate > that without degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something > I said which was wrong in my earlier post though. I said that the > relation between projects was the crucial thing in personality > development. Not completely true. As Jean Lave has shown so well, > the relation between a person and a project they are committed to > is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these two > together. > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't > agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his > dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the > hegemonic power in the given social formation, and 'subjective', > usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my view a product of the > times he lived in, and not useful for us. The question is: how > does the person form a *concept* of the object? It is the > object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut motives. > Over and above the relation between the worker's project of > providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's project > of expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed under > his/her capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" motive. > But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motives, too. > > That's more than enough. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > Greg and Andy, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of > overcoming our > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian > dualism. > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities > in what > follow. > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to > prefer to > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > Wertsh) instead of > individual and activity (or context or project) development; > b) dimensions > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > (micro-meso-macro); c) > motives instead of motivation. > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > language and the > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world > and I need > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > made of this > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 18:11:36 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:11:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E17FB3.6050203@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17FB3.6050203@mira.net> Message-ID: Would it be asking too much to ask for more elaboration of Vygotsky's distinction between the ontological and epistemological problems in the mind/matter problem? Feeling quite ignorant... -greg On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Descartes, along with his fellow dualists Galileo and Copernicus, did have > some problems, which took about 200 years to sort out. (I don't count > Spinoza as having resolved them). The main difficulty was that he (the > others didn't get this far) tried to resolve the mind/matter problem > *natural-scientifically* (which is what many of his professional critics > do, despite the benefit of 380 years experience), rather than > distinguishing between the ontological and epistemological problems, which > is what Vygotsky advises. But what is quite unhelpful, in my view, is > resolving the problem of dualism by declaring it bad and simply denying it. > And as you say, "we Westerners" are far from alone, in believing that there > is a categorical difference between my thought of the world and the world > itself. Thank Christ for that! Do deny this simple observation is the > definition of insanity. Most people simply don't understand the question > which Descartes was trying to answer. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Andy, >> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair enough to >> try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. But I didn't take >> that to be Cristina's point. >> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones who do >> this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - subject/object, >> mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. Are you advocating >> that these should be the governing categories of the human sciences? >> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose some >> significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >> Confused. >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think >> I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages >> like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words >> and other gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can >> be underestimated. Sure, one must use specialised jargon >> sometimes, to communicate to a specialised collaborator in a >> shared discipline, but generally that is because the jargon has >> itself a long track record. Don't try and make up words and >> concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound up >> being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was not >> necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better to >> suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development some >> project makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate >> that without degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something >> I said which was wrong in my earlier post though. I said that the >> relation between projects was the crucial thing in personality >> development. Not completely true. As Jean Lave has shown so well, >> the relation between a person and a project they are committed to >> is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these two >> together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't >> agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his >> dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the >> hegemonic power in the given social formation, and 'subjective', >> usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my view a product of the >> times he lived in, and not useful for us. The question is: how >> does the person form a *concept* of the object? It is the >> object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut motives. >> Over and above the relation between the worker's project of >> providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's project >> of expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed under >> his/her capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" motive. >> But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >> Greg and Andy, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of >> overcoming our >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian >> dualism. >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities >> in what >> follow. >> >> >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to >> prefer to >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >> Wertsh) instead of >> individual and activity (or context or project) development; >> b) dimensions >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >> (micro-meso-macro); c) >> motives instead of motivation. >> >> >> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >> language and the >> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world >> and I need >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >> made of this >> Cartesian world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 18:21:16 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:21:16 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> Message-ID: A lovely book indeed! For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I have pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note that this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Cheers, greg " One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative project? as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an observable phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and explanation, but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit of analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special place in social science and its practical application, particularly in sciences such as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is ethical life. For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them at the time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science is contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When governments make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, then such laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to take policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had deleterious effects on human welfare. In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite the fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms in ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: ?Every activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. 139). MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the course of trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are appropriate to, and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) and ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which are used to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation of the form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre refers to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For MacIntyre also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such as a school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with the whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as such? (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this conception of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach to Activity Theory. One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important to the task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting participants in a project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace of public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat others as equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals equally, within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated equally and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give orders to subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, etc. Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within which equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional life by the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is *not *a regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing a universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies before us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of *relations between projects *must be central to our concerns. Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) which requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but untenable. Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual remote from the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the discussants *doing together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib (1992) reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed primarily as a *hypothetical *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but rather as an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the hypothetical interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful at all such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, which is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the real relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in which they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation or conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, but encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, attribution, privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of norms, consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of an ethics for the modern, secular world. One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the concept of nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct projects which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the Treaty of Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social theory which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its basic units. On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have > a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external > reward." > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us on >> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. >> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing about >> it! -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: >> >> Andy, >> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. >> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >> of the human sciences? >> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >> Confused. >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >> about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development >> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >> Greg and Andy, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >> of overcoming our >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >> Cartesian dualism. >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >> activities in what >> follow. >> >> >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >> to prefer to >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >> Wertsh) instead of >> individual and activity (or context or project) >> development; b) dimensions >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >> (micro-meso-macro); c) >> motives instead of motivation. >> >> >> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >> language and the >> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >> world and I need >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >> made of this >> Cartesian world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Tue Aug 5 19:10:31 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:10:31 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17FB3.6050203@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E18E97.3050209@mira.net> Greg, See http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367 Just a morsel for thought. Karl Marx said his favourite motto was "De omnibus dubitandum" - a quote from Descates meaning "doubt everything" - that is the spirit of dualism carried forward from the Corpus Hermeticum, the Jewish Kabbalah, the alchemists and mystics, the Gnostics, John Scotus, Meister Eckhart, Nicolas of Cusa and Martin Luther and Giordano Bruno, burnt at the stake for his dualism only 30 years before Descartes wrote Discourse on Method, and opposed by the Catholic Church and the German Fascists. I'll confess to feeling somewhat partisan on this issue. Andy / / ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Would it be asking too much to ask for more elaboration of Vygotsky's > distinction between the ontological and epistemological problems in > the mind/matter problem? > Feeling quite ignorant... > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Descartes, along with his fellow dualists Galileo and Copernicus, > did have some problems, which took about 200 years to sort out. (I > don't count Spinoza as having resolved them). The main difficulty > was that he (the others didn't get this far) tried to resolve the > mind/matter problem *natural-scientifically* (which is what many > of his professional critics do, despite the benefit of 380 years > experience), rather than distinguishing between the ontological > and epistemological problems, which is what Vygotsky advises. But > what is quite unhelpful, in my view, is resolving the problem of > dualism by declaring it bad and simply denying it. And as you say, > "we Westerners" are far from alone, in believing that there is a > categorical difference between my thought of the world and the > world itself. Thank Christ for that! Do deny this simple > observation is the definition of insanity. Most people simply > don't understand the question which Descartes was trying to answer. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad > guy. But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism > - a particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the > only ones who do this) divide up the world into various kinds > binaries - subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, > emotion/reason, and so on. Are you advocating that these > should be the governing categories of the human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will > pose some significant problems for imagining things other than > they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > >> wrote: > > Cristina, > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit > I think > I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > languages > like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > hyphenated words > and other gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles > - can > be underestimated. Sure, one must use specialised jargon > sometimes, to communicate to a specialised collaborator in a > shared discipline, but generally that is because the > jargon has > itself a long track record. Don't try and make up words and > concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you > have to. > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of > wound up > being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was not > necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better to > suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > For example, my development is not the same the > development some > project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > eliminate > that without degenerating into nonsense. I must correct > something > I said which was wrong in my earlier post though. I said > that the > relation between projects was the crucial thing in personality > development. Not completely true. As Jean Lave has shown > so well, > the relation between a person and a project they are > committed to > is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these two > together. > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But > I don't > agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > start his > dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > endorsed by the > hegemonic power in the given social formation, and > 'subjective', > usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my view a product > of the > times he lived in, and not useful for us. The question is: how > does the person form a *concept* of the object? It is the > object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut > motives. > Over and above the relation between the worker's project of > providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's > project > of expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed > under > his/her capital. The relation between these two projects > doubtless > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > motive. > But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motives, too. > > That's more than enough. > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > Greg and Andy, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the > difficulties of > overcoming our > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > Cartesian > dualism. > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > activities > in what > follow. > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I > tend to > prefer to > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > Wertsh) instead of > individual and activity (or context or project) > development; > b) dimensions > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > (micro-meso-macro); c) > motives instead of motivation. > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > language and the > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still > Cartesian world > and I need > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > made of this > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From tvmathdude@aol.com Tue Aug 5 19:23:23 2014 From: tvmathdude@aol.com (Tvmathdude) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 22:23:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: NYTimes.com: Why Do Americans Stink at Math? In-Reply-To: <6958237f1a354ee2be758fdb0f1eb7e9@ITSMBX02.ad.wlu.ca> References: <53d5718e.c814e00a.3778.3ba3SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1406571909843.30805@uga.edu> <75FA794D-2E1B-47A5-941F-7EFA1C605559@umich.edu> <022EE4B2-8F70-4DA7-9D00-63CBD7B67D80@umich.edu> <1406748733952.48320@uga.edu> <245EB719-8A88-4496-B64E-D083CD5223F0@umich.edu> , <48C0B057-4918-4642-A947-44C19F8D090E@umich.edu> <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9024BA2@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <6958237f1a354ee2be758fdb0f1eb7e9@ITSMBX02.ad.wlu.ca> Message-ID: <8D17F348828376F-268C-1B6DE@webmail-vm055.sysops.aol.com> Donna, I have to agree. From a BS in English, I went to an MA in mathematics. No one has mentioned Dr. Ellen Langer and Meaningful Learning. Or Cooperative/Collaborative Learning. Or Paideia Seminars. Or a host of other methodologies. The tools are there. Many students are getting excellent preparation in college for successful teaching. It is when they begin teaching in many of our public schools that everything changes. The new teacher goes from knowing that each child is different, in so many ways, to a system that demands they teach every child in the exact same way and that test scores are far more important than learning. When I began teaching at a community college, all of my students had passed the basic skills test to graduate from high school. But few could add, or divide common fractions. When I asked them how this was, their answer was simple, "We took the tests so often, we figured out which answers were correct." Let me share an experience that I had with a statistics class. The college was considering using a standard test to measure level of learning during the first two years. My class was selected to take the test in hopes of comparing the results with several other measures of student success. The test-ing took nearly 90 minutes. My students were angry. They felt that they had wasted the time that I needed to teach statistics. Of the 24 students, 3 admitted that they had Christmas-Treed the answer sheet, 1 stated that he had chosen every wrong answer, 4 more (all of whom I had determined were introverts) did not finish. A third of the results would be useless! The students shared that high school was a hell of constant multiple choice tests that had little to do with what they were learning. A math teacher in a local high school calculated that 45 of the 180 days of school were spent testing! More than 1 day a week! - Roger Breen From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:06:40 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:06:40 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> Message-ID: Greg thank you for posting this section of Andy's book. Andy I appreciated your highlighting the ethical concerns and linking projects to MacIntyre's exploration of *virtue* and *ethics*. I would like to here more about Heller refuting MacIntyre's understanding of the loss of virtue through the loss of a dense ethos of institutional relations in the tendency or movement towards the looser ethos of modernity. Is Heller questioning the communitarian orientation of MacIntyre's ethics?? This *introduction* certainly opens a field for further play Larry On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > A lovely book indeed! > > For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I have > pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note that > this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative > Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Cheers, > greg > > " > > One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative project? > as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an observable > phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and explanation, > but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in > contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit of > analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special place in > social science and its practical application, particularly in sciences such > as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is ethical > life. > > For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act > ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them at the > time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science is > contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When governments > make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, then such > laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the > science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to take > policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had deleterious > effects on human welfare. > > In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite the > fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a > reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms in > ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: ?Every > activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. 139). > MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the course of > trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are appropriate to, > and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) and > ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which are used > to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation of the > form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre refers > to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For MacIntyre > also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such as a > school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with the > whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as such? > (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this conception > of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach to > Activity Theory. > > One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important to the > task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of > equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting participants in a > project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace of > public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat others as > equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals equally, > within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated equally > and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give orders to > subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, etc. > Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within which > equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the > ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional life by > the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is *not > *a > regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing a > universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies before > us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated > self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of > *relations > between projects *must be central to our concerns. > > Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) which > requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a > discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but untenable. > Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual remote from > the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the > discussants *doing > together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib (1992) > reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed primarily > as a *hypothetical > *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but rather as > an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the hypothetical > interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful at all > such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as > representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, which > is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the real > relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in which > they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation or > conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, but > encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of > collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, attribution, > privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of norms, > consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of an > ethics for the modern, secular world. > > One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the concept of > nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct projects > which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the Treaty of > Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social theory > which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its basic > units. > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > > "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you > have > > a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external > > reward." > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > >> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us > on > >> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. > >> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > >> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing > about > >> it! -greg > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >> > wrote: > >> > >> Andy, > >> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > >> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > >> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > >> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > >> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > >> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > >> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so > on. > >> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > >> of the human sciences? > >> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > >> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > >> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > >> Confused. > >> -greg > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: > >> > >> Cristina, > >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > >> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > >> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > >> > >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > >> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > >> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > >> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > >> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > >> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > >> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > >> about it if you have to. > >> > >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > >> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > >> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > >> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > >> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > >> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > >> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > >> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > >> > >> For example, my development is not the same the development > >> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > >> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > >> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > >> though. I said that the relation between projects was the > >> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > >> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > >> and a project they are committed to is equally important, > >> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > >> > >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > >> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > >> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > >> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > >> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > >> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > >> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > >> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > >> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > >> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > >> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > >> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > >> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > >> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > >> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > >> > >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > >> motives, too. > >> > >> That's more than enough. > >> Andy > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > >> > >> Greg and Andy, > >> > >> Thank you for your comments. > >> > >> > >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > >> of overcoming our > >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > >> Cartesian dualism. > >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > >> activities in what > >> follow. > >> > >> > >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > >> to prefer to > >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > >> Wertsh) instead of > >> individual and activity (or context or project) > >> development; b) dimensions > >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > >> (micro-meso-macro); c) > >> motives instead of motivation. > >> > >> > >> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > >> language and the > >> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > >> world and I need > >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > >> made of this > >> Cartesian world. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Aug 5 20:29:38 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:29:38 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> I don't know about play, Larry, and I wouldn't want to counterpose Heller to MacIntyre. Heller is adding a further dimension to what MacIntyre has pointed out. The importance for me is how she points to the fact that different ethics (and different forms of cognition and language) apply within a project as opposed to in "the general community." The difficulty then is how to conceptualise this "general community." This is where people often introduce open-ended abstractions like "context" or "society", but I prefer to stick to project as a unit of analysis, and recognise that communication and interaction between projects requires a different ethics (and language, concepts, etc.) than that which applies within any one project - you don't talk to your family the same way your talk to strangers in the street or colleagues at work. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Greg > thank you for posting this section of Andy's book. > Andy > I appreciated your highlighting the ethical concerns and linking projects > to MacIntyre's exploration of *virtue* and *ethics*. > > I would like to hear more about Heller refuting MacIntyre's understanding > of the loss of virtue through the loss of a dense ethos of institutional > relations in the tendency or movement towards the looser ethos of > modernity. > > Is Heller questioning the communitarian orientation of MacIntyre's ethics?? > > This *introduction* certainly opens a field for further play > Larry > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > >> A lovely book indeed! >> >> For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I have >> pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note that >> this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative >> Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Cheers, >> greg >> >> " >> >> One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative project? >> as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an observable >> phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and explanation, >> but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in >> contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit of >> analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special place in >> social science and its practical application, particularly in sciences such >> as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is ethical >> life. >> >> For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act >> ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them at the >> time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science is >> contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When governments >> make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, then such >> laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the >> science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to take >> policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had deleterious >> effects on human welfare. >> >> In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite the >> fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a >> reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms in >> ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: ?Every >> activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. 139). >> MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the course of >> trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are appropriate to, >> and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) and >> ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which are used >> to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation of the >> form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre refers >> to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For MacIntyre >> also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such as a >> school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with the >> whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as such? >> (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this conception >> of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach to >> Activity Theory. >> >> One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important to the >> task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of >> equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting participants in a >> project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace of >> public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat others as >> equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals equally, >> within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated equally >> and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give orders to >> subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, etc. >> Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within which >> equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the >> ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional life by >> the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is *not >> *a >> regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing a >> universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies before >> us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated >> self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of >> *relations >> between projects *must be central to our concerns. >> >> Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) which >> requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a >> discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but untenable. >> Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual remote from >> the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the >> discussants *doing >> together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib (1992) >> reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed primarily >> as a *hypothetical >> *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but rather as >> an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the hypothetical >> interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful at all >> such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as >> representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, which >> is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the real >> relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in which >> they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation or >> conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, but >> encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of >> collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, attribution, >> privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of norms, >> consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of an >> ethics for the modern, secular world. >> >> One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the concept of >> nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct projects >> which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the Treaty of >> Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social theory >> which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its basic >> units. >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you >>> >> have >> >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external >>> reward." >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us >>>> >> on >> >>>> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing >>>> >> about >> >>>> it! -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < >>>> >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so >>>> >> on. >> >>>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >>>> of the human sciences? >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >>>> Confused. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Cristina, >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >>>> >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >>>> about it if you have to. >>>> >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >>>> >>>> For example, my development is not the same the development >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >>>> >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >>>> >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motives, too. >>>> >>>> That's more than enough. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg and Andy, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >>>> of overcoming our >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >>>> Cartesian dualism. >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >>>> activities in what >>>> follow. >>>> >>>> >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >>>> to prefer to >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >>>> Wertsh) instead of >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) >>>> development; b) dimensions >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) >>>> motives instead of motivation. >>>> >>>> >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >>>> language and the >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >>>> world and I need >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >>>> made of this >>>> Cartesian world. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Aug 5 21:54:03 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 22:54:03 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: So Andy, I take it that you approve of Cristina's opposition of dualism. And as to the need to not rely on our natural language, I wonder if Vygtosky is with Cristina (and me) on that one. In the Two Psychologies essay that you shared ( http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm), Vygotsky writes: "H?ffding compares it with the same content expressed in two languages which we do not manage to reduce to a common protolanguage. But we want to know the content and not the *language* in which it is expressed. In physics we have freed ourselves from language in order to study the content. We must do the same in psychology." I'll confess to occasionally reading Vygotsky upside down (he often introduces opposing positions without any indication that they are opposed to his own), so maybe I've got it backwards. I certainly had some difficulty discerning the proper context for this paragraph, but it seems like it is straight through. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. -greg On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair enough to > try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones who do > this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - subject/object, > mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories of the > human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose some > significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email list. What >> I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I think I can respond to >> and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up languages like >> Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, hyphenated words and other >> gobbydegook fashionable in some academic circles - can be underestimated. >> Sure, one must use specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a >> specialised collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try and make up >> words and concepts, at least, take a year or two about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first treated >> consciousness as an object of science, and the many of those belonging to >> the dualist tradition he was part of wound up being burnt at the stake for >> suggesting that the world was not necessarily identical to how it seemed. >> So I'd say, better to suffer association with Descartes than make up words >> and expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the 1930s was >> not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development some project >> makes. And no amount of playing with words can eliminate that without >> degenerating into nonsense. I must correct something I said which was wrong >> in my earlier post though. I said that the relation between projects was >> the crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. As Jean >> Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person and a project they >> are committed to is equally important, their role, so to speak. Take these >> two together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I don't agree >> at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a start his dichotomy >> between 'objective' motives, i.e., those endorsed by the hegemonic power in >> the given social formation, and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, >> motives, is in my view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful >> for us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of the >> object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial thing in talking abut >> motives. Over and above the relation between the worker's project of >> providing for his family (or whatever) and the employer's project of >> expanding the proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless seems to the >> boss to be the difference between the worker's subjective, secret, >> self-interest, and his own "objective" motive. But his point of view is not >> necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >>> Greg and Andy, >>> >>> Thank you for your comments. >>> >>> >>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties of overcoming >>> our >>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the Cartesian dualism. >>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect activities in what >>> follow. >>> >>> >>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to >>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) instead >>> of >>> individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) >>> dimensions >>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); c) >>> motives instead of motivation. >>> >>> >>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and the >>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I need >>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this >>> Cartesian world. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Tue Aug 5 22:34:09 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:34:09 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E1BE51.3020102@mira.net> "Dualism" is a very longstanding philosophical problem and from the time of Spinoza forward it has been recognised as a problem. In my view, this problem was not resolved until Hegel, though Kant made important steps in its solution.It is more that I am opposed to the cry of "dualism" as a slogan, and the unthinking condemnation of Descartes, for committing a kind of original sin. "Dualism" is where you say (more or less) the world is made up of two kinds of substances, ..." but the solution to the discovery that there are indeed in some given situation two opposite kinds of entity, is to work out how the two are mediated, i.e., by introducing a third, or by working out how the two mutually constitute one another or how one changes into the other and vice versa. How it is never solved is by (1) declaring it to be a false dichotomy, (2) inventing a neolog to mean both one and the other, (3) denying any distinction, or (4) subsuming one under the other. In the specific instance of the distinction between thought and matter the question is more difficult, because this question is the most fundamental of all and cannot be resolved in the ways other dichotomies are resolved. Although the way the problem is posed - "thought vs matter" - is problematic, i.e., the very posing of the question seems to imply that thought is a substance, it is an inescapable dichotomy because we live it every moment of the day. Aristotle did not know of this dichotomy, because he took it for granted that the world was just how it was reflected in thought and language and there was no reason to suppose that if we looked inside any person's head we would find anything different from inside anyone else's head. It just never occurred to the ancients to make "consciousness" an object of science. Anyway, I am happy to defer to what Vygotsky says in that chapter. I read it and re-read it annually. As to the language question, there is no doubt at all that we need specialised languages in specialised projects such as Psychology. But that definitively does not mean that researchers should start by making up words when they come across a difficulty. When the concept first appears, the word is usually already present. Problems like the relation between thinking and acting, between individual person's and their social environment have been around for millennia. They are not new problems. You would have to have very very good reasons to resolve these conceptual problems by making up new words. If you can't explain it in ordinary English, then you probably don't understand it. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > So Andy, I take it that you approve of Cristina's opposition of dualism. > > And as to the need to not rely on our natural language, I wonder if > Vygtosky is with Cristina (and me) on that one. In the Two > Psychologies essay that you shared > (http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm), > Vygotsky writes: > > "H?ffding compares it with the same content expressed in two languages > which we do not manage to reduce to a common protolanguage. But we > want to know the content and not the /*language*/ in which it is > expressed. In physics we have freed ourselves from language in order > to study the content. We must do the same in psychology." > > I'll confess to occasionally reading Vygotsky upside down (he often > introduces opposing positions without any indication that they are > opposed to his own), so maybe I've got it backwards. I certainly had > some difficulty discerning the proper context for this paragraph, but > it seems like it is straight through. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. > -greg > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > of the human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Cristina, > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > about it if you have to. > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > For example, my development is not the same the development > some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > though. I said that the relation between projects was the > crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > and a project they are committed to is equally important, > their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motives, too. > > That's more than enough. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > Greg and Andy, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > of overcoming our > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > Cartesian dualism. > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > activities in what > follow. > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > to prefer to > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > Wertsh) instead of > individual and activity (or context or project) > development; b) dimensions > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > (micro-meso-macro); c) > motives instead of motivation. > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > language and the > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > world and I need > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > made of this > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From acoppens@ucsc.edu Tue Aug 5 23:43:05 2014 From: acoppens@ucsc.edu (Andrew Coppens) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 23:43:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Greg and all, I'm enjoying this thread and wish I could participate more closely. I want to first respond to the point about "necessity" to labor. The bulk of the research I've done here focuses on children's initiative in family household chores. Arguably, the families with the most necessity for children's help are middle-class dual-earner families with big homes that require lots of upkeep but who have very little time and little help from extended family members. Yet, these are the families in which children contribute the least, and seldom with initiative. Rather, the little they do is often assigned by parents, rewarded with praise and allowances, and is often accomplished with lots of struggle. Without a doubt the best data available on pattern for US middle-class families is here: http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520273986 Also, in many Indigenous American communities play and work are inseparable for young children (and they also go to school). Inge Bolin's 2006 book documents this beautifully. Suzanne Gaskins has found that toddlers in a Mayan community actually choose to be involved in work over play. This makes sense to me. Why play with dolls when you can climb up on your own developmental shoulders and help care for a real baby, sharing this fundamental motive with expert caregivers in your community? To be sure, these patterns are changing. On to your question, Greg. Thanks for the correction on dialogic/dialectic; I meant the latter. It's the creative tension between subject and object-motive that's of interest here to me and to my ideas about motivation and children's integration in mature family/community endeavors. Let me use the caregiving example above. When children can collaborate with adults and contribute to this endeavor, not in a child-specific proscribed way but as an integrated novice, I think the "pull" or "motivation" to contribute can be immense. And, because the object of the activity is shared I think the subjectivity of the child expands along with it. When we interviewed children in an Indigenous-heritage community of Guadalajara, Mexico about what they personally did to help children insisted on the "pronoun" we. We asked again about "your" contributions, and they corrected with "we". This is written up briefly here: Coppens, A. D., Alcal?, L., Mej?a-Arauz, R., & Rogoff, B. (2014). Children's initiative in family household work in Mexico. *Human Development, 57*(2-3), 116-130. doi: 10.1159/000356768 Just to make it interesting: I'm also thinking about "helping the family" as a leading developmental activity in the sense that Elkonin has written about the idea, with long-lasting motivational and developmental affordances, for children from many Latino families (at least those who have lots of experience pitching in collaboratively throughout childhood). There's some evidence that "helping the family" can support academic achievement in college for these youth. Thanks everyone, Andrew --- On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:16 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Andrew, > > I think your point about the segregation of children and workers from > productive activities seems an important point to consider in the larger > context of why psychologists have been so taken by the intrinsic/extrinsic > dichotomy. I don't know Danziger but I wonder if there might also be > something important that comes with separating children from productive > work. Obviously something is lost here. But it seems that something is > gained in the sense that children are, at least theoretically, freed from > necessity. I say "at least theoretically" because in most cases, it is just > the exchange of one necessity for another: the necessity to labor > productively is exchanged for the necessity to get good grades. But there > is the theoretical potential for real, engaging play. > > Also, I wonder if you could expand on this: > "This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the subject/object-motive > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive." > > I'm not sure I follow whether or not you are pointing to a dialogical or > dialectical relationship, or whether that is a distinction that matters to > you? (some people make too big a deal about this distinction and others use > the terms internchangeably so I'm just wondering what you mean by it - for > my two bits, "mutual constitution" sounds more dialectical to me). > > But more importantly, I was wondering about the headway you are making in > thinking about motivation. It sounded like there is more here and I'd love > to hear more. > > Cheers, > -greg > p.s. I clipped the message so responses going forward won't have that > terribly long thread trailing behind (although those threads can be useful > for finding one's way back...). > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Andrew Coppens wrote: > > > Hi everyone - > > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener > here. > > > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive cultural > > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to contribute > > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility > to > > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants and > > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the > motivational > > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical > timing > > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming > the > > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become somewhat > > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even > hold > > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend > the > > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's activity > > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting a > > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do something > > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is inherent/intrinsic, > > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and > RM > > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive > is, I > > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the > subject/object-motive > > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the > mid-1990s. > > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would > coincide > > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights > from > > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > > Andrew > > > > --- > > Andrew D. Coppens > > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 01:22:52 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:22:52 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stephen Wiltshire has a frontispiece and a long footnote in our Korean translation of HDHMF (the chapter on memory, of course--we use him to explain what an eidetic memory is). Because the documentary on Stephen is so relentlessly insistent on Stephen Wiltshire's "unique" gifts, it tends to demphasize the memory component of it (a literal memory IS actually quite common in autistic people). It also tends to play down what are clearly some very serious speech problems (Stephen's apparent inability to complete sentence unless he's heard it before and also his apparent inability to understand abstract concepts like "famous", not to mention the terrible moment where he explains to the man who designed the Gherkin that this is a famous building which is found in London, even though they are standing in front of a window through which the building is clearly visible.). I think the most touching, and also psychologically perspicacious, moment in the documentary film is where his former teacher says she doesn't really know which is most wonderful to her--Stephen's ability to draw or his newfound ability to do things like buy a sandwich and even take the subway by himself. After a moment of reflection, his teacher says: "the latter". Of course, that's not the view of the documentary writers, but they are in the business of glorifying his marketable skills. When I first went to China, food was priced by the ingredients, not the labour. But art objects were often priced by labour, measured in hours put in: the buyer would have to judge these by the amount of detail. I'm not very susceptible to the romantic view of art production (it seems quite close to the documentary's insistence of the uniqueness of art potentials, and I really prefer to think of them as ubiquitous, or at least universally available). But I do something find something hard and horrible about the gruelling detail of Wiltshire's work. I think it is the lack of abstraction; the inability to "fuzz out". Even the distance of the horizon is a rather literal reproduction of what the eye saw. Tomorrow I have to give a half hour speech on the Sewol disaster in Korean, and I have given up trying to memorize every word; I think I shall just do what normal psychologies do naturally and riff on the slides. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies PS: By the way at the end of last month he did a panorama of Singapore that is even more impressive, because unlike London, he hasn't lived there all his life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elgsqXIxKCM On 4 August 2014 03:40, mike cole wrote: > Yep that is awesome, Greg. > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 > > and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. > > > > Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop > the > > video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 > > > > And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU > > > > Awesome. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Aug 6 01:53:54 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:53:54 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Danish Folk Schools Message-ID: <53E1ED22.8030306@mira.net> Anyone know much about the Danish Folk Schools founded by N. F. S. Grundtvig? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Wed Aug 6 02:36:35 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 11:36:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy, could you please indicate what is the neologism which I would have introduced and that has brought about such a disagreement from you? I can think of 'strategy of production' which I intentionally introduced as a new concept and discussed it in my dissertation. But I guess it is not this one. Cristina 2014-08-06 8:43 GMT+02:00 Andrew Coppens : > Hi Greg and all, > I'm enjoying this thread and wish I could participate more closely. > > I want to first respond to the point about "necessity" to labor. The bulk > of the research I've done here focuses on children's initiative in family > household chores. Arguably, the families with the most necessity for > children's help are middle-class dual-earner families with big homes that > require lots of upkeep but who have very little time and little help from > extended family members. Yet, these are the families in which children > contribute the least, and seldom with initiative. Rather, the little they > do is often assigned by parents, rewarded with praise and allowances, and > is often accomplished with lots of struggle. Without a doubt the best data > available on pattern for US middle-class families is here: > http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520273986 > > Also, in many Indigenous American communities play and work are inseparable > for young children (and they also go to school). Inge Bolin's 2006 book > documents this beautifully. Suzanne Gaskins has found that toddlers in a > Mayan community actually choose to be involved in work over play. This > makes sense to me. Why play with dolls when you can climb up on your own > developmental shoulders and help care for a real baby, sharing this > fundamental motive with expert caregivers in your community? To be sure, > these patterns are changing. > > On to your question, Greg. Thanks for the correction on dialogic/dialectic; > I meant the latter. It's the creative tension between subject and > object-motive that's of interest here to me and to my ideas about > motivation and children's integration in mature family/community endeavors. > Let me use the caregiving example above. When children can collaborate with > adults and contribute to this endeavor, not in a child-specific proscribed > way but as an integrated novice, I think the "pull" or "motivation" to > contribute can be immense. And, because the object of the activity is > shared I think the subjectivity of the child expands along with it. When we > interviewed children in an Indigenous-heritage community of Guadalajara, > Mexico about what they personally did to help children insisted on the > "pronoun" we. We asked again about "your" contributions, and they corrected > with "we". This is written up briefly here: Coppens, A. D., Alcal?, L., > Mej?a-Arauz, R., & Rogoff, B. (2014). Children's initiative in family > household work in Mexico. *Human Development, 57*(2-3), 116-130. doi: > 10.1159/000356768 > > Just to make it interesting: I'm also thinking about "helping the family" > as a leading developmental activity in the sense that Elkonin has written > about the idea, with long-lasting motivational and developmental > affordances, for children from many Latino families (at least those who > have lots of experience pitching in collaboratively throughout childhood). > There's some evidence that "helping the family" can support academic > achievement in college for these youth. > > Thanks everyone, > Andrew > --- > > > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:16 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > Andrew, > > > > I think your point about the segregation of children and workers from > > productive activities seems an important point to consider in the larger > > context of why psychologists have been so taken by the > intrinsic/extrinsic > > dichotomy. I don't know Danziger but I wonder if there might also be > > something important that comes with separating children from productive > > work. Obviously something is lost here. But it seems that something is > > gained in the sense that children are, at least theoretically, freed from > > necessity. I say "at least theoretically" because in most cases, it is > just > > the exchange of one necessity for another: the necessity to labor > > productively is exchanged for the necessity to get good grades. But there > > is the theoretical potential for real, engaging play. > > > > Also, I wonder if you could expand on this: > > "This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I > > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the > subject/object-motive > > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make > > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive." > > > > I'm not sure I follow whether or not you are pointing to a dialogical or > > dialectical relationship, or whether that is a distinction that matters > to > > you? (some people make too big a deal about this distinction and others > use > > the terms internchangeably so I'm just wondering what you mean by it - > for > > my two bits, "mutual constitution" sounds more dialectical to me). > > > > But more importantly, I was wondering about the headway you are making in > > thinking about motivation. It sounded like there is more here and I'd > love > > to hear more. > > > > Cheers, > > -greg > > p.s. I clipped the message so responses going forward won't have that > > terribly long thread trailing behind (although those threads can be > useful > > for finding one's way back...). > > > > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Andrew Coppens > wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone - > > > Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener > > here. > > > > > > I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched > > > intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive > cultural > > > pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to > contribute > > > autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility > > to > > > productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants > and > > > meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the > > motivational > > > affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature > > > endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? > > > > > > First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical > > timing > > > between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of > > > children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the > > > turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming > > the > > > Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and > > > workers from productive activities and their motives) has become > somewhat > > > of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational > > > theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. > > > > > > >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even > > hold > > > water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend > > the > > > idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what > > > might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's > activity > > > and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting > a > > > grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do > something > > > productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is > inherent/intrinsic, > > > not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational > > > transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and > > RM > > > Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. > > > > > > So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. > > > When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about > > > motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. > > > "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in > > > relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive > > is, I > > > think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the > > subject/object-motive > > > in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to > make > > > headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes > > > collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. > > > > > > There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very > > > nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and > > > Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the > > mid-1990s. > > > Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural > > > perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would > > coincide > > > with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this > > > "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights > > from > > > Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. > > > > > > Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, > > > Andrew > > > > > > --- > > > Andrew D. Coppens > > > www.andrewcoppens.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From ablunden@mira.net Wed Aug 6 03:02:42 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 20:02:42 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53E1FD42.9020704@mira.net> Cristina! My words were not directed against you. I was talking about very widespread practices, practices which have 'got under my skin' for years, including numerous formulations which arise from people trying to avoid the sin of dualism. In my reply to you I actually just focussed two paragraphs: "About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend to prefer to talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and Wertsh) instead of individual and activity (or context or project) development; b) dimensions of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon (micro-meso-macro); c) motives instead of motivation. "However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new language and the ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian world and I need to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) made of this Cartesian world." The rest arose from questions posed by Greg. In these two paragraphs you propose to avoid "dualistic language", by which you apparently mean that you do not wish to distinguish between the development of a person and the development of the activity/context/practice. What would this would mean in the case of a soldier who dies while the country he is fighting for wins the war? How has he developed as an individual? Or does the country die with him? Can you tell me what the difference is between levels and dimensions in a way which allows me to see why micro/meso/macro development are in some way invalid or unhelpful concepts? How do you plan to escape this "Cartesian" world? if you have trouble understanding yourself when you speak a language which you have evidently invented ('my' language). This difficulty is clearly not one of communication if you can't understand yourself. I find it far better to understand the existing real words in the real language *dialectically*, rather than making up my own language. I recommend this approach. It has the benefit that at least I can understand myself even if no-one else can understand me. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > could you please indicate what is the neologism which I would have > introduced and that has brought about such a disagreement from you? > > I can think of 'strategy of production' which I intentionally introduced as > a new concept and discussed it in my dissertation. But I guess it is not > this one. > > Cristina > > > 2014-08-06 8:43 GMT+02:00 Andrew Coppens : > > >> Hi Greg and all, >> I'm enjoying this thread and wish I could participate more closely. >> >> I want to first respond to the point about "necessity" to labor. The bulk >> of the research I've done here focuses on children's initiative in family >> household chores. Arguably, the families with the most necessity for >> children's help are middle-class dual-earner families with big homes that >> require lots of upkeep but who have very little time and little help from >> extended family members. Yet, these are the families in which children >> contribute the least, and seldom with initiative. Rather, the little they >> do is often assigned by parents, rewarded with praise and allowances, and >> is often accomplished with lots of struggle. Without a doubt the best data >> available on pattern for US middle-class families is here: >> http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520273986 >> >> Also, in many Indigenous American communities play and work are inseparable >> for young children (and they also go to school). Inge Bolin's 2006 book >> documents this beautifully. Suzanne Gaskins has found that toddlers in a >> Mayan community actually choose to be involved in work over play. This >> makes sense to me. Why play with dolls when you can climb up on your own >> developmental shoulders and help care for a real baby, sharing this >> fundamental motive with expert caregivers in your community? To be sure, >> these patterns are changing. >> >> On to your question, Greg. Thanks for the correction on dialogic/dialectic; >> I meant the latter. It's the creative tension between subject and >> object-motive that's of interest here to me and to my ideas about >> motivation and children's integration in mature family/community endeavors. >> Let me use the caregiving example above. When children can collaborate with >> adults and contribute to this endeavor, not in a child-specific proscribed >> way but as an integrated novice, I think the "pull" or "motivation" to >> contribute can be immense. And, because the object of the activity is >> shared I think the subjectivity of the child expands along with it. When we >> interviewed children in an Indigenous-heritage community of Guadalajara, >> Mexico about what they personally did to help children insisted on the >> "pronoun" we. We asked again about "your" contributions, and they corrected >> with "we". This is written up briefly here: Coppens, A. D., Alcal?, L., >> Mej?a-Arauz, R., & Rogoff, B. (2014). Children's initiative in family >> household work in Mexico. *Human Development, 57*(2-3), 116-130. doi: >> 10.1159/000356768 >> >> Just to make it interesting: I'm also thinking about "helping the family" >> as a leading developmental activity in the sense that Elkonin has written >> about the idea, with long-lasting motivational and developmental >> affordances, for children from many Latino families (at least those who >> have lots of experience pitching in collaboratively throughout childhood). >> There's some evidence that "helping the family" can support academic >> achievement in college for these youth. >> >> Thanks everyone, >> Andrew >> --- >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:16 PM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >> >>> Andrew, >>> >>> I think your point about the segregation of children and workers from >>> productive activities seems an important point to consider in the larger >>> context of why psychologists have been so taken by the >>> >> intrinsic/extrinsic >> >>> dichotomy. I don't know Danziger but I wonder if there might also be >>> something important that comes with separating children from productive >>> work. Obviously something is lost here. But it seems that something is >>> gained in the sense that children are, at least theoretically, freed from >>> necessity. I say "at least theoretically" because in most cases, it is >>> >> just >> >>> the exchange of one necessity for another: the necessity to labor >>> productively is exchanged for the necessity to get good grades. But there >>> is the theoretical potential for real, engaging play. >>> >>> Also, I wonder if you could expand on this: >>> "This dialogic relation between self and object-motive is, I >>> think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the >>> >> subject/object-motive >> >>> in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to make >>> headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes >>> collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive." >>> >>> I'm not sure I follow whether or not you are pointing to a dialogical or >>> dialectical relationship, or whether that is a distinction that matters >>> >> to >> >>> you? (some people make too big a deal about this distinction and others >>> >> use >> >>> the terms internchangeably so I'm just wondering what you mean by it - >>> >> for >> >>> my two bits, "mutual constitution" sounds more dialectical to me). >>> >>> But more importantly, I was wondering about the headway you are making in >>> thinking about motivation. It sounded like there is more here and I'd >>> >> love >> >>> to hear more. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -greg >>> p.s. I clipped the message so responses going forward won't have that >>> terribly long thread trailing behind (although those threads can be >>> >> useful >> >>> for finding one's way back...). >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Andrew Coppens >>> >> wrote: >> >>>> Hi everyone - >>>> Thanks in advance for bearing with a long post from a usual listener >>>> >>> here. >>> >>>> I'm also working on an alternative to the deeply entrenched >>>> intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. I'm trying to explain a pervasive >>>> >> cultural >> >>>> pattern among Indigenous American children: the motivation to >>>> >> contribute >> >>>> autonomously (i.e., under their own initiative) and with responsibility >>>> >>> to >>> >>>> productive family and community endeavors, as integrated participants >>>> >> and >> >>>> meaningful collaborators in cultural activities. What are the >>>> >>> motivational >>> >>>> affordances of children having opportunities to "take part" in mature >>>> endeavors? What is the draw of "bigger than me" activities? >>>> >>>> First, I've found it instructive to consider parallels in historical >>>> >>> timing >>> >>>> between the emergence of a motivational science and the segregation of >>>> children from productive work in the middle-class West, both around the >>>> turn of the 20th century. Kurt Danziger has written on this in *Naming >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> Mind. *I believe this cultural pattern (the segregation of children and >>>> workers from productive activities and their motives) has become >>>> >> somewhat >> >>>> of an unquestioned epistemological principle in canonical motivational >>>> theory, and certainly in the intrinsic/extrinsic dichotomy. >>>> >>>> >From a CHAT perspective, would the idea of an "extrinsic reward" even >>>> >>> hold >>> >>>> water? Mainstream motivational research gives enough evidence to defend >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> idea that when "extrinsic rewards" undermine intrinsic motivation, what >>>> might be happening is a transformation of the student's/child's >>>> >> activity >> >>>> and the material reward is the pivot. That new activity (e.g., getting >>>> >> a >> >>>> grade) is not nearly as compelling as mastering material to do >>>> >> something >> >>>> productive and interesting. But "getting a grade" is >>>> >> inherent/intrinsic, >> >>>> not extrinsic, to the activity of IPBSchooling. This motivational >>>> transformation can happen in the reverse direction too (see WM Roth and >>>> >>> RM >>> >>>> Larson), through a move from periphery to center a la Lave & Wenger. >>>> >>>> So, not "extrinsic" but also not "intrinsic" in the conventional sense. >>>> When self-in-activity is the unit of analysis for questions about >>>> motivation, the intrinsic-as-internal metaphor seems very inadequate. >>>> "Intrinsic" comes to encompass the entire activity, and the self in >>>> relation to it. This dialogic relation between self and object-motive >>>> >>> is, I >>> >>>> think, what's intended by mutual constitution of the >>>> >>> subject/object-motive >>> >>>> in Leont'ev and others' formulations. This is where I've started to >>>> >> make >> >>>> headway in thinking about motivation when a child contributes >>>> collaboratively and with initiative toward a shared motive. >>>> >>>> There is definitely work on this topic. Ruth Paradise (2005) has a very >>>> nice paper in Spanish also using the term "inherent" motivation, and >>>> Barbara Rogoff has alluded to this idea in several places in the >>>> >>> mid-1990s. >>> >>>> Dan Hickey and others have written wonderfully about sociocultural >>>> perspectives on achievement motivation theory, in ways that would >>>> >>> coincide >>> >>>> with thoughts on this thread so far. Dorothy Lee (1961) calls this >>>> "autonomous motivation". There are many others, including key insights >>>> >>> from >>> >>>> Carol Dweck and Mark Lepper. >>>> >>>> Thanks for listening and hopefully correcting, >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Andrew D. Coppens >>>> www.andrewcoppens.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> > > > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Aug 6 03:34:15 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:34:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> Message-ID: <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it was Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship of observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews from a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's interested). Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external reward." Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motivation. > Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I > know nothing about it! > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: > > Andy, > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > of the human sciences? > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > Confused. > -greg > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Cristina, > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > about it if you have to. > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > For example, my development is not the same the development > some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > though. I said that the relation between projects was the > crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > and a project they are committed to is equally important, > their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motives, too. > > That's more than enough. > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > Greg and Andy, > > Thank you for your comments. > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > of overcoming our > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > Cartesian dualism. > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > activities in what > follow. > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > to prefer to > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > Wertsh) instead of > individual and activity (or context or project) > development; b) dimensions > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > (micro-meso-macro); c) > motives instead of motivation. > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > language and the > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > world and I need > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > made of this > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ewall@umich.edu Wed Aug 6 04:57:39 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 07:57:39 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Peter I was the one who made the incorrect inference (although I questioned myself at the time) re the apprenticeship of observation. In any case, I would be interested in reading a pdf that complicates the notion. I was not assigned After Virtue, but read it thoroughly on my own and found it quite insightful and the argument reasonably pointed. Was your label of meandering a criticism of style or content? In any case, what seemed blunt and extraneous? Ed Wall On Aug 6, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it was Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship of observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews from a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's interested). > > Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external reward." > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: >> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell >> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motivation. >> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and >> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I >> know nothing about it! >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson >> > wrote: >> >> Andy, >> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. >> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >> of the human sciences? >> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >> Confused. >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >> about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development >> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >> Greg and Andy, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >> of overcoming our >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >> Cartesian dualism. >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >> activities in what >> follow. >> >> >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >> to prefer to >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >> Wertsh) instead of >> individual and activity (or context or project) >> development; b) dimensions >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >> (micro-meso-macro); c) >> motives instead of motivation. >> >> >> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >> language and the >> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >> world and I need >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >> made of this >> Cartesian world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Aug 6 05:12:24 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 22:12:24 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <53E21BA8.3050609@mira.net> Since the writer was in the process of converting from Marxism to Catholicism while writing that book it would not be surprising if there were some eccentricities of style. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Ed Wall wrote: > Peter > > I was the one who made the incorrect inference (although I questioned myself at the time) re the apprenticeship of observation. In any case, I would be interested in reading a pdf that complicates the notion. > > I was not assigned After Virtue, but read it thoroughly on my own and found it quite insightful and the argument reasonably pointed. Was your label of meandering a criticism of style or content? In any case, what seemed blunt and extraneous? > > Ed Wall > > On Aug 6, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > >> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it was Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship of observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews from a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's interested). >> >> Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? >> >> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external reward." >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> >>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell >>> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>> motivation. >>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and >>> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I >>> know nothing about it! >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Andy, >>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. >>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >>> of the human sciences? >>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >>> Confused. >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> Cristina, >>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >>> >>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >>> about it if you have to. >>> >>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >>> >>> For example, my development is not the same the development >>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >>> >>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >>> >>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>> motives, too. >>> >>> That's more than enough. >>> Andy >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>> >>> Greg and Andy, >>> >>> Thank you for your comments. >>> >>> >>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >>> of overcoming our >>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >>> Cartesian dualism. >>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >>> activities in what >>> follow. >>> >>> >>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >>> to prefer to >>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >>> Wertsh) instead of >>> individual and activity (or context or project) >>> development; b) dimensions >>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >>> (micro-meso-macro); c) >>> motives instead of motivation. >>> >>> >>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >>> language and the >>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >>> world and I need >>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >>> made of this >>> Cartesian world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >> > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 05:37:17 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:37:17 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E21BA8.3050609@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <53E21BA8.3050609@mira.net> Message-ID: I was wondering whether this was necessary to the process itself, akin to the locomotion of snakes or caterpillars. The best authors I have read have been circumlocutionary (in a good way). I recall Bateson's daughter saying that in offering explanations, he would not say what something is but where to put it. Best, Huw On 6 August 2014 13:12, Andy Blunden wrote: > Since the writer was in the process of converting from Marxism to > Catholicism while writing that book it would not be surprising if there > were some eccentricities of style. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Ed Wall wrote: > >> Peter >> >> I was the one who made the incorrect inference (although I >> questioned myself at the time) re the apprenticeship of observation. In any >> case, I would be interested in reading a pdf that complicates the notion. >> >> I was not assigned After Virtue, but read it thoroughly on my own >> and found it quite insightful and the argument reasonably pointed. Was your >> label of meandering a criticism of style or content? In any case, what >> seemed blunt and extraneous? >> >> Ed Wall >> >> On Aug 6, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >> >> >>> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it >>> was Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a >>> common term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this >>> question. In case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of >>> apprenticeship of observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based >>> on interviews from a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to >>> anyone who's interested). >>> >>> Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book >>> seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough >>> revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@ >>> mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? >>> >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external >>> reward." >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us on >>>> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing about >>>> it! >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so >>>> on. Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >>>> of the human sciences? >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >>>> Confused. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Cristina, >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >>>> >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >>>> about it if you have to. >>>> >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >>>> >>>> For example, my development is not the same the development >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >>>> >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >>>> >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motives, too. >>>> >>>> That's more than enough. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg and Andy, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >>>> of overcoming our >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >>>> Cartesian dualism. >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >>>> activities in what >>>> follow. >>>> >>>> >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >>>> to prefer to >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >>>> Wertsh) instead of >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) >>>> development; b) dimensions >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) >>>> motives instead of motivation. >>>> >>>> >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >>>> language and the >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >>>> world and I need >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >>>> made of this >>>> Cartesian world. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Aug 6 05:51:56 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:51:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <17e713dc29204ae0866ec09194b021f0@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Ed, I probably read it 30 years ago, so all I've got is a general recall of conversations among students that it seemed like a first draft that needed a lot of revision so that points were made more straightforwardly. I suspect that style and content are inextricable--that is, the meandering style resulted in meandering content--but as I said, it's been awhile. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed Wall Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 7:58 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? Peter I was the one who made the incorrect inference (although I questioned myself at the time) re the apprenticeship of observation. In any case, I would be interested in reading a pdf that complicates the notion. I was not assigned After Virtue, but read it thoroughly on my own and found it quite insightful and the argument reasonably pointed. Was your label of meandering a criticism of style or content? In any case, what seemed blunt and extraneous? Ed Wall On Aug 6, 2014, at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it was Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship of observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews from a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's interested). > > Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external reward." > Andy > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: >> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell >> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motivation. >> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and >> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I >> know nothing about it! >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson >> > wrote: >> >> Andy, >> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. >> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >> of the human sciences? >> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >> Confused. >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >> about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development >> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >> Greg and Andy, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >> of overcoming our >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >> Cartesian dualism. >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >> activities in what >> follow. >> >> >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >> to prefer to >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >> Wertsh) instead of >> individual and activity (or context or project) >> development; b) dimensions >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >> (micro-meso-macro); c) >> motives instead of motivation. >> >> >> However it happens that I need to swing between 'my' new >> language and the >> 'standard' one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >> world and I need >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >> made of this >> Cartesian world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Aug 6 06:17:03 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:17:03 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, Speaking of Philip Jackson, I called him a couple of months ago to make sure I was clear on his particular reading of Dewey's work. In passing, I mentioned how pleased I was to see his work on Hegel in* Teacher's College Record.*(Speaking of Thinking: A Beginner's Guide to Hegel's *Science of Logic*, Parts I-5). He said that series of articles represented ten years of research and that I was the only person that ever mentioned anything about this work to him. That is sad. Robert On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it was > Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common > term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In > case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship of > observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews from > a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's > interested). > > Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book > seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough > revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have > a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external > reward." > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > > probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > > us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > > motivation. > > Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > > intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I > > know nothing about it! > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > Andy, > > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > > enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > > who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > > subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. > > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > > of the human sciences? > > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > > some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > > Confused. > > -greg > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > Cristina, > > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > > think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > > languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > > hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > > academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > > specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > > collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > > because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > > and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > > about it if you have to. > > > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > > up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > > not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > > to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > > > For example, my development is not the same the development > > some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > > eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > > correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > > though. I said that the relation between projects was the > > crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > > As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > > and a project they are committed to is equally important, > > their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > > don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > > start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > > endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > > and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > > view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > > us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > > the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > > thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > > between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > > whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > > proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > > capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > > motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > > motives, too. > > > > That's more than enough. > > Andy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > > > Greg and Andy, > > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > > of overcoming our > > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > > Cartesian dualism. > > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > > activities in what > > follow. > > > > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > > to prefer to > > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > > Wertsh) instead of > > individual and activity (or context or project) > > development; b) dimensions > > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > > (micro-meso-macro); c) > > motives instead of motivation. > > > > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > > language and the > > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > > world and I need > > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > > made of this > > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Wed Aug 6 06:51:17 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 15:51:17 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Andy, indeed I was struck by your sort of shut me up inviting me to ?take a year or two? before making up words and concepts ... I admit that I am not an expert in the literature on dualism. The object of my research was not that one. Yet I adopted a CHAT influenced perspective to carry out my research and therefore my stance cannot be dualistic. So I am interested in this debate and ready to learn more. I read your posts ? Andy ? and it seems to me that your stance is that thought has a different substance from that of the world. You write that there is a categorical difference between our thought of the world and the world itself. You also write that our development is not the development of the world. From my CHAT readings so far and my interpretation of it, I have developed a different conception of the substance of thoughts. My interpretation of what I read so far is that thoughts are connected to the body: for example, the child cannot do and think certain things till her body has developed so that she can stand up. I also remind that when I am thinking, and writing as in this precise moment, there are synapses and peptides moving in my body, maybe according to the habits I have developed along my life to deal with this type of situation. This is in a certain way supported and shown by biological studies: it has been proved that the use of tools induces plastic changes in the brain/mind (Cardinali, L., F. Frassinetti, et al. (2009). "Tool-use induces morphological updating of the body schema." Current Biology 19(13): 1157.). But if you mean that if you think of rain, that is not enough that it rains, I can understand your stance. Yet our unit of analysis is the project or the activity, not a single thought. This is also what Leontiev has pointed out. Talking about development: I agree that my development is not the development ? for example - of my Institute of Research. But this is because I am participating in (and to) many other activities. Not because me and my Institute are two separated entities. At the same time my Institute of Research is formed by the participation of many other researchers who also participate in other activities. In my Institute of Research we all mediate our actions with cultural tools that we have internalized in other activities, and after years of collaborative work we have now in common a certain way of doing research and talking about research and so on. We have also developed common motives which help give a bit of coordination to our work. Of course the discourse would be much more complex here. But I need to make a long story short. I would say that we ? my colleagues and me - have developed material-discursive practices (from Karen Barad who says that the atomic physics theory has empirical evidences to support the break with the Cartesian dualism. Her book: Meeting the universe halfway, page 138) about research and we are parts of these latter. I could say the same about all the other participations of mine. Indeed I can see that my personal development along my life is very connected to what I have been doing so far. Here the issue of determinism seems to emerge. I do not want to talk about this. I just say that I think I could argue that my stance does not fall into the determinism. Now I want to take your example ? Andy ? of the soldier. I would reply to your question by saying that the victory of the soldier?s country is the victory of the soldier in a patriotic material-discursive practices. If the soldier?s upbringing has occurred in this type of practices, he could feel proud to die for his country. Of course, if he had had a pacifist education, but were forced to be a soldier, then he might have undermined the success of his country in that war. In any case, I can see a single development: the pacifist soldier has to die for his country. We are part of something which is bigger than us even when we try to get out of it. When I say that I need to talk to myself first using a Cartesian language, it is because I am aware that my upbringing was through material-discursive Cartesian practices. So I need first to talk in ?Cartesianism? and then try to change slightly my language to try to render what I can see now, after the internalization of a CHAT influenced perspective. I prefer the word ?dimension? because it recalls a solid form: activity is a solid form with its dimensions: material, collective and subjective. The word ?level? points to what is up and what is down. I don?t have valid criteria to decide what is up and what is down. Hope this is useful to answer your questions, Andy. Comments are welcome. Cristina 2014-08-06 15:17 GMT+02:00 Robert Lake : > Hi Peter, > Speaking of Philip Jackson, I called him > a couple of months ago to make sure I was > clear on his particular reading of Dewey's work. In passing, > I mentioned how pleased I was to see his work on Hegel > in* Teacher's College Record.*(Speaking of Thinking: > A Beginner's Guide to Hegel's *Science of Logic*, Parts I-5). > He said that series of articles represented ten years of > research and that I was the only person that > ever mentioned anything about this work > to him. That is sad. > Robert > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it > was > > Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common > > term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In > > case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship > of > > observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews > from > > a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's > > interested). > > > > Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book > > seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a > thorough > > revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > > > > Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > > "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you > have > > a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external > > reward." > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > > And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > > > probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > > > us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > > > motivation. > > > Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > > > intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I > > > know nothing about it! > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Andy, > > > I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > > > enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > > > But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > > > It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > > > particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > > > who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > > > subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so > on. > > > Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > > > of the human sciences? > > > If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > > > If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > > > some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > > > Confused. > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > > wrote: > > > > > > Cristina, > > > There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > > > list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > > > think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > > > > > I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > > > languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > > > hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > > > academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > > > specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > > > collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > > > because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > > > and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > > > about it if you have to. > > > > > > Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > > > treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > > > those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > > > up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > > > not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > > > to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > > > expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > > > 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > > > > > For example, my development is not the same the development > > > some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > > > eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > > > correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > > > though. I said that the relation between projects was the > > > crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > > > As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > > > and a project they are committed to is equally important, > > > their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > > > > > Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > > > don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > > > start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > > > endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > > > and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > > > view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > > > us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > > > the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > > > thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > > > between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > > > whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > > > proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > > > capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > > > seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > > > subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > > > motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > > > > > Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > > > motives, too. > > > > > > That's more than enough. > > > Andy > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > > > > > Greg and Andy, > > > > > > Thank you for your comments. > > > > > > > > > Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > > > of overcoming our > > > western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > > > Cartesian dualism. > > > Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > > > activities in what > > > follow. > > > > > > > > > About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > > > to prefer to > > > talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > > > Wertsh) instead of > > > individual and activity (or context or project) > > > development; b) dimensions > > > of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > > > (micro-meso-macro); c) > > > motives instead of motivation. > > > > > > > > > However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > > > language and the > > > ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > > > world and I need > > > to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > > > made of this > > > Cartesian world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From ablunden@mira.net Wed Aug 6 07:36:08 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 00:36:08 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <53E23D58.3020105@mira.net> Cristina, The discussion about consciousness being categorically different from matter I will leave at this point. It is a very difficult discussion; no-one ever changes their position, so I will leave it to Vygotsky: http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm You say that you agree that "my development is not the development of my Institute." What's the problem then? Why did you say in your first email that there is only *one* development, a statement which is simply and obviously wrong, as you now agree. It is not necessary to make absurd overstatements. To deny that there is only "one development" does not mean that you and the institute are "separate." It is not a one-or-the-other situation. It seems like dualism to me to want it either one-only or separate. What we are dealing with here is the absolutely ubiquitous relation between the individual, universal and particular, a relation which is fundamental not only to you and your institute, but to *every* concept and every project or activity. What makes you a part of the Institute? What is the Institute? What is a research project? The institute exists only through the range of research projects recognised as its work; these research projects are made up of the many actions guided by the institute and its employees and even if all the individual actions were carried out, they would not constitute research projects if they were not carried out as Institute projects but just happened; all the little actions carried out within the institute are meaningful and coherent (and funded) only insofar as they contribute to one or other of the institute's projects. So there is a very definite kind of relation which connects you with the Institute and your colleagues, one of collaboration in a number of projects. That is invisible if you simply declare that there is only one development, a "night in which all cows are black" - if you will excuse the classical allusion. But, as you say, if you and your colleagues have worked out a way of doing your research and talking about it, why should I object? Using a shared language with your colleagues is not the same as making up words. It may not be a language that I find pleasing or helpful, but if it works for you, fine. I'm a multiculturalist deep down, and it is the results which matter. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > > indeed I was struck by your sort of shut me up inviting me to ?take a year > or two? before making up words and concepts ... > > > I admit that I am not an expert in the literature on dualism. The object of > my research was not that one. Yet I adopted a CHAT influenced perspective > to carry out my research and therefore my stance cannot be dualistic. So I > am interested in this debate and ready to learn more. > > > I read your posts ? Andy ? and it seems to me that your stance is that > thought has a different substance from that of the world. You write that > there is a categorical difference between our thought of the world and the > world itself. You also write that our development is not the development of > the world. From my CHAT readings so far and my interpretation of it, I have > developed a different conception of the substance of thoughts. > > > My interpretation of what I read so far is that thoughts are connected to > the body: for example, the child cannot do and think certain things till > her body has developed so that she can stand up. I also remind that when I > am thinking, and writing as in this precise moment, there are synapses and > peptides moving in my body, maybe according to the habits I have developed > along my life to deal with this type of situation. This is in a certain way > supported and shown by biological studies: it has been proved that the use > of tools induces plastic changes in the brain/mind (Cardinali, L., F. > Frassinetti, et al. (2009). "Tool-use induces morphological updating of the > body schema." Current Biology 19(13): 1157.). > > > But if you mean that if you think of rain, that is not enough that it > rains, I can understand your stance. > > > Yet our unit of analysis is the project or the activity, not a single > thought. This is also what Leontiev has pointed out. > > > Talking about development: I agree that my development is not the > development ? for example - of my Institute of Research. But this is > because I am participating in (and to) many other activities. Not because > me and my Institute are two separated entities. At the same time my > Institute of Research is formed by the participation of many other > researchers who also participate in other activities. In my Institute of > Research we all mediate our actions with cultural tools that we have > internalized in other activities, and after years of collaborative work we > have now in common a certain way of doing research and talking about > research and so on. We have also developed common motives which help give a > bit of coordination to our work. Of course the discourse would be much more > complex here. But I need to make a long story short. > > > I would say that we ? my colleagues and me - have developed > material-discursive practices (from Karen Barad who says that the atomic > physics theory has empirical evidences to support the break with the > Cartesian dualism. Her book: Meeting the universe halfway, page 138) about > research and we are parts of these latter. I could say the same about all > the other participations of mine. Indeed I can see that my personal > development along my life is very connected to what I have been doing so > far. > > > Here the issue of determinism seems to emerge. I do not want to talk about > this. I just say that I think I could argue that my stance does not fall > into the determinism. > > > Now I want to take your example ? Andy ? of the soldier. I would reply to > your question by saying that the victory of the soldier?s country is the > victory of the soldier in a patriotic material-discursive practices. If the > soldier?s upbringing has occurred in this type of practices, he could feel > proud to die for his country. Of course, if he had had a pacifist > education, but were forced to be a soldier, then he might have undermined > the success of his country in that war. > > > In any case, I can see a single development: the pacifist soldier has to > die for his country. We are part of something which is bigger than us even > when we try to get out of it. > > > When I say that I need to talk to myself first using a Cartesian language, > it is because I am aware that my upbringing was through material-discursive > Cartesian practices. So I need first to talk in ?Cartesianism? and then try > to change slightly my language to try to render what I can see now, after > the internalization of a CHAT influenced perspective. > > > I prefer the word ?dimension? because it recalls a solid form: activity is > a solid form with its dimensions: material, collective and subjective. The > word ?level? points to what is up and what is down. I don?t have valid > criteria to decide what is up and what is down. > > > Hope this is useful to answer your questions, Andy. > > Comments are welcome. > > > Cristina > > > > 2014-08-06 15:17 GMT+02:00 Robert Lake : > > >> Hi Peter, >> Speaking of Philip Jackson, I called him >> a couple of months ago to make sure I was >> clear on his particular reading of Dewey's work. In passing, >> I mentioned how pleased I was to see his work on Hegel >> in* Teacher's College Record.*(Speaking of Thinking: >> A Beginner's Guide to Hegel's *Science of Logic*, Parts I-5). >> He said that series of articles represented ten years of >> research and that I was the only person that >> ever mentioned anything about this work >> to him. That is sad. >> Robert >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> >> >>> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it >>> >> was >> >>> Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common >>> term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In >>> case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship >>> >> of >> >>> observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews >>> >> from >> >>> a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's >>> interested). >>> >>> Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book >>> seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a >>> >> thorough >> >>> revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? >>> >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you >>> >> have >> >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external >>> reward." >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell >>>> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motivation. >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and >>>> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I >>>> know nothing about it! >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so >>>> >> on. >> >>>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >>>> of the human sciences? >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >>>> Confused. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Cristina, >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >>>> >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >>>> about it if you have to. >>>> >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >>>> >>>> For example, my development is not the same the development >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >>>> >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >>>> >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motives, too. >>>> >>>> That's more than enough. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg and Andy, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >>>> of overcoming our >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >>>> Cartesian dualism. >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >>>> activities in what >>>> follow. >>>> >>>> >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >>>> to prefer to >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >>>> Wertsh) instead of >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) >>>> development; b) dimensions >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) >>>> motives instead of motivation. >>>> >>>> >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >>>> language and the >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >>>> world and I need >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >>>> made of this >>>> Cartesian world. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>> >>> > > > > From ewall@umich.edu Wed Aug 6 07:36:57 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:36:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> Robert I'm glad you brought this up. I've read what Andy had written (I just checked and there seems to be more or perhaps a different format or perhaps I've just forgotten) and have also studied Hegel's Science of Logic in a bit of depth. I've also read the first in Jackson's series and was uncertain whether this was an help or improvement (Dewey seems to have lectured on this piece by Hegel by the way); however, I admit to possible bias because of these other readings. Thus I've always wondered how helpful other people found the series and why. Ed Wall On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi Peter, > Speaking of Philip Jackson, I called him > a couple of months ago to make sure I was > clear on his particular reading of Dewey's work. In passing, > I mentioned how pleased I was to see his work on Hegel > in* Teacher's College Record.*(Speaking of Thinking: > A Beginner's Guide to Hegel's *Science of Logic*, Parts I-5). > He said that series of articles represented ten years of > research and that I was the only person that > ever mentioned anything about this work > to him. That is sad. > Robert > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > >> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it was >> Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common >> term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. In >> case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of apprenticeship of >> observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews from >> a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's >> interested). >> >> Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book >> seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a thorough >> revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? >> >> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of >> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you have >> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external >> reward." >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell >>> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>> motivation. >>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and >>> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I >>> know nothing about it! >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Andy, >>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. >>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >>> of the human sciences? >>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >>> Confused. >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: >>> >>> Cristina, >>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >>> >>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >>> about it if you have to. >>> >>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >>> >>> For example, my development is not the same the development >>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >>> >>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >>> >>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>> motives, too. >>> >>> That's more than enough. >>> Andy >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>> >>> Greg and Andy, >>> >>> Thank you for your comments. >>> >>> >>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >>> of overcoming our >>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >>> Cartesian dualism. >>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >>> activities in what >>> follow. >>> >>> >>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >>> to prefer to >>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >>> Wertsh) instead of >>> individual and activity (or context or project) >>> development; b) dimensions >>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >>> (micro-meso-macro); c) >>> motives instead of motivation. >>> >>> >>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >>> language and the >>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >>> world and I need >>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >>> made of this >>> Cartesian world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Wed Aug 6 08:03:10 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:03:10 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> Message-ID: Andy, thank you for your comments. My whole paragraph is: "I agree that my development is not the development ? for example - of my Institute of Research. But this is because I am participating in (and to) many other activities. Not because me and my Institute are two separated entities." That is, me and my Institute have a development which can overlap. When I talk in my email about the cultural tools developed in our collaborative work in my Institute, I am not referring to the issue of 'making up words'. I meant to refer that the development overlaps because my colleagues and me we have internalized the same cultural tools (however in a subjective way). All cows are not black for me, because I look at the personal relationship that each older worker (going back to my research) has with the motive/object of the activity. To be precise, I look at the personal sense of the motive. Cristina 2014-08-06 16:36 GMT+02:00 Ed Wall : > Robert > > I'm glad you brought this up. I've read what Andy had written (I > just checked and there seems to be more or perhaps a different format or > perhaps I've just forgotten) and have also studied Hegel's Science of Logic > in a bit of depth. I've also read the first in Jackson's series and was > uncertain whether this was an help or improvement (Dewey seems to have > lectured on this piece by Hegel by the way); however, I admit to possible > bias because of these other readings. Thus I've always wondered how helpful > other people found the series and why. > > Ed Wall > > On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:17 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > Hi Peter, > > Speaking of Philip Jackson, I called him > > a couple of months ago to make sure I was > > clear on his particular reading of Dewey's work. In passing, > > I mentioned how pleased I was to see his work on Hegel > > in* Teacher's College Record.*(Speaking of Thinking: > > A Beginner's Guide to Hegel's *Science of Logic*, Parts I-5). > > He said that series of articles represented ten years of > > research and that I was the only person that > > ever mentioned anything about this work > > to him. That is sad. > > Robert > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > >> I read After Virtue in grad school, assigned by Philip Jackson (and it > was > >> Lortie, not Jackson, who made the apprenticeship of observation a common > >> term among teacher educators--someone posted earlier on this question. > In > >> case anyone's interested, I've got a forthcoming study of > apprenticeship of > >> observation that complicates Lortie's conclusions based on interviews > from > >> a different era, and would be happy to send the pdf to anyone who's > >> interested). > >> > >> Anyhow, on MacIntyre: I remember discussing at the time that the book > >> seemed like a rough draft that really would have benefitted from a > thorough > >> revision to cut out the meandering and make a more pointed argument. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:55 PM > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? > >> > >> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > >> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you > have > >> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external > >> reward." > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Greg Thompson wrote: > >>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > >>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > >>> us on why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > >>> motivation. > >>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > >>> intrinsic motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I > >>> know nothing about it! > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Andy, > >>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > >>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > >>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > >>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > >>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > >>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > >>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so > on. > >>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > >>> of the human sciences? > >>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > >>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > >>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. > >>> Confused. > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Cristina, > >>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > >>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > >>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > >>> > >>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > >>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > >>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > >>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > >>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > >>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > >>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > >>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > >>> about it if you have to. > >>> > >>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > >>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > >>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > >>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > >>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > >>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > >>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > >>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > >>> > >>> For example, my development is not the same the development > >>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > >>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > >>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > >>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the > >>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > >>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > >>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, > >>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > >>> > >>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > >>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > >>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > >>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > >>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > >>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > >>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > >>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > >>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > >>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > >>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > >>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > >>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > >>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > >>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > >>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > >>> > >>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > >>> motives, too. > >>> > >>> That's more than enough. > >>> Andy > >>> > >>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > >>> > >>> Greg and Andy, > >>> > >>> Thank you for your comments. > >>> > >>> > >>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > >>> of overcoming our > >>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > >>> Cartesian dualism. > >>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > >>> activities in what > >>> follow. > >>> > >>> > >>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > >>> to prefer to > >>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > >>> Wertsh) instead of > >>> individual and activity (or context or project) > >>> development; b) dimensions > >>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > >>> (micro-meso-macro); c) > >>> motives instead of motivation. > >>> > >>> > >>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > >>> language and the > >>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > >>> world and I need > >>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > >>> made of this > >>> Cartesian world. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > >> > > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 08:16:44 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 09:16:44 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B9EE931-B648-4D8F-83CE-9CCD6571E243@gmail.com> Yes David, the documentary for me thinking about vygotskys writings on eidetic memory. I remember coming across it in a chapter on adolescence in vygotskys collected works, but I had a difficult time making head or tail of it since I had been introduced to Vygotsky as a champion of the critical importance of language for thought. Maybe you can help me understand better about what Vygotsky was talking about with this idea of the importance of eidetic memory in adolescence? Is language involved at all in this development, or, like Wiltshire, is language an impediment to eidetic memory (while at the same time being a boon to other forms of memory, not to mention the social communicative boon). Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2014, at 2:22 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > Stephen Wiltshire has a frontispiece and a long footnote in our Korean > translation of HDHMF (the chapter on memory, of course--we use him to > explain what an eidetic memory is). Because the documentary on Stephen is > so relentlessly insistent on Stephen Wiltshire's "unique" gifts, it tends > to demphasize the memory component of it (a literal memory IS actually > quite common in autistic people). It also tends to play down what are > clearly some very serious speech problems (Stephen's apparent inability to > complete sentence unless he's heard it before and also his apparent > inability to understand abstract concepts like "famous", not to mention the > terrible moment where he explains to the man who designed the Gherkin that > this is a famous building which is found in London, even though they are > standing in front of a window through which the building is clearly > visible.). > > I think the most touching, and also psychologically perspicacious, moment > in the documentary film is where his former teacher says she doesn't really > know which is most wonderful to her--Stephen's ability to draw or his > newfound ability to do things like buy a sandwich and even take the subway > by himself. After a moment of reflection, his teacher says: "the latter". > Of course, that's not the view of the documentary writers, but they are in > the business of glorifying his marketable skills. > > When I first went to China, food was priced by the ingredients, not the > labour. But art objects were often priced by labour, measured in hours put > in: the buyer would have to judge these by the amount of detail. I'm not > very susceptible to the romantic view of art production (it seems quite > close to the documentary's insistence of the uniqueness of art potentials, > and I really prefer to think of them as ubiquitous, or at least universally > available). But I do something find something hard and horrible about the > gruelling detail of Wiltshire's work. I think it is the lack of > abstraction; the inability to "fuzz out". Even the distance of the horizon > is a rather literal reproduction of what the eye saw. > > Tomorrow I have to give a half hour speech on the Sewol disaster in Korean, > and I have given up trying to memorize every word; I think I shall just do > what normal psychologies do naturally and riff on the slides. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > PS: > > By the way at the end of last month he did a panorama of Singapore that is > even more impressive, because unlike London, he hasn't lived there all his > life. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elgsqXIxKCM > > > >> On 4 August 2014 03:40, mike cole wrote: >> >> Yep that is awesome, Greg. >> mike >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson >> wrote: >> >>> Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until age 5 >>> and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. >>> >>> Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop >> the >>> video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 >>> >>> And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU >>> >>> Awesome. >>> -greg >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> From ablunden@mira.net Wed Aug 6 08:18:54 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 01:18:54 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> Message-ID: <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> Can I just respond very briefly to your final comment concerning your research, using Leontyev's conception of objective motives and personal motives. This is the kind of dualism which I find very unhelpful. What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > > thank you for your comments. > > My whole paragraph is: "I agree that my development is not the development > ? for example - of my Institute of Research. But this is because I am > participating in (and to) many other activities. Not because me and my > Institute are two separated entities." > > That is, me and my Institute have a development which can overlap. > > When I talk in my email about the cultural tools developed in our > collaborative work in my Institute, I am not referring to the issue of > 'making up words'. I meant to refer that the development overlaps because > my colleagues and me we have internalized the same cultural tools (however > in a subjective way). > > All cows are not black for me, because I look at the personal relationship > that each older worker (going back to my research) has with the > motive/object of the activity. To be precise, I look at the personal sense > of the motive. > > Cristina > > > From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Wed Aug 6 08:35:12 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:35:12 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, I have found this solution: objective motive is the object of the activity, that is the strategy of production, as the CEO depicts it. The personal sense of that motive is how that motive emerges from the older workers' narratives of their professional and family life. It is for example the emphasis on quality by Ms D, while her employer put the emphasis on the quantity (I have written about Ms D in one of my previous emails). 2014-08-06 17:18 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > Can I just respond very briefly to your final comment concerning your > research, using Leontyev's conception of objective motives and personal > motives. This is the kind of dualism which I find very unhelpful. > > What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is > there which is not personal? > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > >> Andy, >> >> thank you for your comments. >> >> My whole paragraph is: "I agree that my development is not the development >> ? for example - of my Institute of Research. But this is because I am >> participating in (and to) many other activities. Not because me and my >> Institute are two separated entities." >> >> That is, me and my Institute have a development which can overlap. >> >> When I talk in my email about the cultural tools developed in our >> collaborative work in my Institute, I am not referring to the issue of >> 'making up words'. I meant to refer that the development overlaps because >> my colleagues and me we have internalized the same cultural tools (however >> in a subjective way). >> >> All cows are not black for me, because I look at the personal relationship >> that each older worker (going back to my research) has with the >> motive/object of the activity. To be precise, I look at the personal sense >> of the motive. >> >> Cristina >> >> >> > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From ablunden@mira.net Wed Aug 6 09:00:37 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 02:00:37 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E25125.2040200@mira.net> So "objective motive", means the CEO's motive. Is that right? But you also say the objective motive is the "object of the activity." You surmise the worker's motives from their narratives, and I guess you surmise the CEO's motives from his pronouncements, too. So "objective" cannot be the right word can it? It is just the CEO's motive, just the personal motive of one person. What about the owner or shareholders? Surely their motives are even "more objective". Sociologists long ago found that managers have different motives than owners. Why privilege just one person's motives as "objective"? And if the "strategy of production" for example, fails to produce a product, do we take it that that was the really objective motive? If the subjective desires and pronouncements of the CEO are objective, how do you characterise what actually transpires, if not "objective"? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > > I have found this solution: objective motive is the object of the > activity, that is the strategy of production, as the CEO depicts it. > The personal sense of that motive is how that motive emerges from the > older workers' narratives of their professional and family life. It is > for example the emphasis on quality by Ms D, while her employer put > the emphasis on the quantity (I have written about Ms D in one of my > previous emails). > > > 2014-08-06 17:18 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden >: > > Can I just respond very briefly to your final comment concerning > your research, using Leontyev's conception of objective motives > and personal motives. This is the kind of dualism which I find > very unhelpful. > > What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive > is there which is not personal? > > > Andy > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 09:12:36 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 17:12:36 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> Message-ID: Cristina, It looks, from my reading, that you are using a hybrid set of terms along the lines of both Engestrom and Leontyev. The Leontyevian position is that the object of motive is personal. The object of motive identifies the "throwness" of the person's current intentional engagement as structured by their selected goals and operations. Hence a manager's designation of goals is not necessarily the goals of the person's activity. If you consider Marx's notion of alienation contemporaneously as the frustration of a workers' desire to undertake their work as a craft (i.e as a practice of craftsmanship) then you have identified a frustrated personal motive that a worker may struggle to realign with the demands placed upon them. Hope this helps, Huw On 6 August 2014 16:35, Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > > I have found this solution: objective motive is the object of the activity, > that is the strategy of production, as the CEO depicts it. > The personal sense of that motive is how that motive emerges from the older > workers' narratives of their professional and family life. It is for > example the emphasis on quality by Ms D, while her employer put the > emphasis on the quantity (I have written about Ms D in one of my previous > emails). > > > 2014-08-06 17:18 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > > > Can I just respond very briefly to your final comment concerning your > > research, using Leontyev's conception of objective motives and personal > > motives. This is the kind of dualism which I find very unhelpful. > > > > What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is > > there which is not personal? > > > > > > Andy > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 12:46:17 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (lpscholar2@gmail.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 19:46:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Intrinsic_motivation=3F?= In-Reply-To: <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> , <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> Message-ID: <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> Thanks Andy for this extension. the IF the difficulty is how to conceptualize this *general* community without abstractions such as *context* or *society* and *project* is a preferable unit of analysis which becomes more complicated when communication is between multiple projects then we require a DIFFERENT ETHICS [and language and concepts]. Rather tan the concept *play* I will translate to *subject matter* which may have some affinity with *project* IF projects are *projected* then they may be *made available* AS *subject matter*. I would like to also bring into this discussion the concept of *perspective* as used by Justus Buchler in his book *Toward a General Theory of Human Development* Robert Corrington in his reflections on Buchler?s book notes that for Buchler, ?A perspective is a ?humanly occupied order? that has a direction and a meaning BEYOND given conscious intents. Buchler saw the *community of interpreters* as the place where perspectives [as humanly occupied order] are shared and communicated] Andy I will pay attention to your developing the notion of *projects* and ETHICS. PLAY, as a concept shares with Buchler?s concept of *perspective* a notion of *subject matter* which HAPPENS to us in our engagements. *Subject matter* [die Sache] is the *mediating 3rd* within dialogue. I wonder if there is a possibility of a to-and-fro translating between the concepts *subject matter* and *projects*. Both concepts may be *projected* as a kind of order beyond mere subjective *will power* Thanks Andy for the chat Larry Sent from Windows Mail From: Andy Blunden Sent: ?Tuesday?, ?August? ?5?, ?2014 ?8?:?29? ?PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity I don't know about play, Larry, and I wouldn't want to counterpose Heller to MacIntyre. Heller is adding a further dimension to what MacIntyre has pointed out. The importance for me is how she points to the fact that different ethics (and different forms of cognition and language) apply within a project as opposed to in "the general community." The difficulty then is how to conceptualise this "general community." This is where people often introduce open-ended abstractions like "context" or "society", but I prefer to stick to project as a unit of analysis, and recognise that communication and interaction between projects requires a different ethics (and language, concepts, etc.) than that which applies within any one project - you don't talk to your family the same way your talk to strangers in the street or colleagues at work. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Larry Purss wrote: > Greg > thank you for posting this section of Andy's book. > Andy > I appreciated your highlighting the ethical concerns and linking projects > to MacIntyre's exploration of *virtue* and *ethics*. > > I would like to hear more about Heller refuting MacIntyre's understanding > of the loss of virtue through the loss of a dense ethos of institutional > relations in the tendency or movement towards the looser ethos of > modernity. > > Is Heller questioning the communitarian orientation of MacIntyre's ethics?? > > This *introduction* certainly opens a field for further play > Larry > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > >> A lovely book indeed! >> >> For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I have >> pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note that >> this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative >> Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Cheers, >> greg >> >> " >> >> One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative project? >> as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an observable >> phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and explanation, >> but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in >> contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit of >> analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special place in >> social science and its practical application, particularly in sciences such >> as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is ethical >> life. >> >> For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act >> ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them at the >> time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science is >> contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When governments >> make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, then such >> laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the >> science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to take >> policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had deleterious >> effects on human welfare. >> >> In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite the >> fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a >> reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms in >> ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: ?Every >> activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. 139). >> MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the course of >> trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are appropriate to, >> and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) and >> ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which are used >> to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation of the >> form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre refers >> to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For MacIntyre >> also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such as a >> school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with the >> whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as such? >> (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this conception >> of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach to >> Activity Theory. >> >> One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important to the >> task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of >> equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting participants in a >> project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace of >> public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat others as >> equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals equally, >> within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated equally >> and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give orders to >> subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, etc. >> Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within which >> equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the >> ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional life by >> the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is *not >> *a >> regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing a >> universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies before >> us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated >> self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of >> *relations >> between projects *must be central to our concerns. >> >> Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) which >> requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a >> discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but untenable. >> Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual remote from >> the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the >> discussants *doing >> together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib (1992) >> reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed primarily >> as a *hypothetical >> *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but rather as >> an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the hypothetical >> interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful at all >> such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as >> representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, which >> is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the real >> relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in which >> they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation or >> conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, but >> encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of >> collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, attribution, >> privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of norms, >> consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of an >> ethics for the modern, secular world. >> >> One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the concept of >> nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct projects >> which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the Treaty of >> Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social theory >> which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its basic >> units. >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you >>> >> have >> >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and "external >>> reward." >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell us >>>> >> on >> >>>> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing >>>> >> about >> >>>> it! -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < >>>> >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com >> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Andy, >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so >>>> >> on. >> >>>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >>>> of the human sciences? >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >>>> Confused. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Cristina, >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >>>> >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >>>> about it if you have to. >>>> >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >>>> >>>> For example, my development is not the same the development >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >>>> >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >>>> >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >>>> motives, too. >>>> >>>> That's more than enough. >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>>> >>>> Greg and Andy, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >>>> of overcoming our >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >>>> Cartesian dualism. >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >>>> activities in what >>>> follow. >>>> >>>> >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >>>> to prefer to >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >>>> Wertsh) instead of >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) >>>> development; b) dimensions >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) >>>> motives instead of motivation. >>>> >>>> >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >>>> language and the >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >>>> world and I need >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >>>> made of this >>>> Cartesian world. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Aug 6 13:24:38 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 16:24:38 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I have a copy of David Kellogg's new book: *The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with Halliday, Vygotsky, and Shakespeare **Sense Publishers, Rotterdam, The Netherlands.*and will mail it to anyone who would like to write a review of it. David did a fabulous job on it and is already using it in his English classes in Korea. By the way, He did not ask me to do this. *Robert Lake* *From the back cover.* Every storyteller soon discovers the difference between putting a story inside children and trying to extract it with comprehension questions and putting children inside a story and having them act it out. Teachers may experience this as a difference in "difficulty", or in the level of motivation and enthusiasm, or even in the engagement of creativity and imagination, and leave it at that. This book explores the divide more critically and analytically, finding symmetrical and even complementary problems and affordances with both approaches. First, we examine what teachers actually say and do in each approach, using the systemic-functional grammar of M.A.K. Halliday. Secondly, we explore the differences developmentally, using the cultural-historical psychology of L.S. Vygotsky. Thirdly, we explain the differences we find in texts by considering the history of genres from the fable through the plays of Shakespeare. "Inside" and "Outside" the story turn out to be two very different modes of experiencing-the one reflective and narrativizing and the other participatory and dialogic. These two modes of experience prove to be equally valuable, and even mutually necessary, but only in the long run-different approaches are necessary at different moments in the lesson, different points in development, and even different times in human history. In the final analysis, though, this distinction is meaningless to children and to their teachers unless it is of practical use. Each chapter employs only the most advanced technology ever developed for making sense of human experience, namely thinking and talking--though not necessarily in that order. So every story has a specific narrative to tell, a concrete set of dialogues to try, and above all a practicable time and a practical space for children, their teachers, and even their teachers' teachers, to talk and to think On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:46 PM, wrote: > Thanks Andy for this extension. the > > IF the difficulty is how to conceptualize this *general* community without > abstractions such as *context* or *society* and *project* is a preferable > unit of analysis which becomes more complicated when communication is > between multiple projects then we require a DIFFERENT ETHICS [and language > and concepts]. > > Rather tan the concept *play* I will translate to *subject matter* which > may have some affinity with *project* > > IF projects are *projected* then they may be *made available* AS *subject > matter*. > > I would like to also bring into this discussion the concept of > *perspective* as used by Justus Buchler in his book *Toward a General > Theory of Human Development* > > > Robert Corrington in his reflections on Buchler?s book notes that for > Buchler, > > ?A perspective is a ?humanly occupied order? that has a direction and a > meaning BEYOND given conscious intents. Buchler saw the *community of > interpreters* as the place where perspectives [as humanly occupied order] > are shared and communicated] > > > Andy I will pay attention to your developing the notion of *projects* and > ETHICS. > > PLAY, as a concept shares with Buchler?s concept of *perspective* a notion > of *subject matter* which HAPPENS to us in our engagements. *Subject > matter* [die Sache] is the *mediating 3rd* within dialogue. > > I wonder if there is a possibility of a to-and-fro translating between the > concepts *subject matter* and *projects*. Both concepts may be *projected* > as a kind of order beyond mere subjective *will power* > > Thanks Andy for the chat > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Andy Blunden > Sent: ?Tuesday?, ?August? ?5?, ?2014 ?8?:?29? ?PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > I don't know about play, Larry, and I wouldn't want to counterpose > Heller to MacIntyre. Heller is adding a further dimension to what > MacIntyre has pointed out. The importance for me is how she points to > the fact that different ethics (and different forms of cognition and > language) apply within a project as opposed to in "the general > community." The difficulty then is how to conceptualise this "general > community." This is where people often introduce open-ended abstractions > like "context" or "society", but I prefer to stick to project as a unit > of analysis, and recognise that communication and interaction between > projects requires a different ethics (and language, concepts, etc.) than > that which applies within any one project - you don't talk to your > family the same way your talk to strangers in the street or colleagues > at work. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > Greg > > thank you for posting this section of Andy's book. > > Andy > > I appreciated your highlighting the ethical concerns and linking projects > > to MacIntyre's exploration of *virtue* and *ethics*. > > > > I would like to hear more about Heller refuting MacIntyre's understanding > > of the loss of virtue through the loss of a dense ethos of institutional > > relations in the tendency or movement towards the looser ethos of > > modernity. > > > > Is Heller questioning the communitarian orientation of MacIntyre's > ethics?? > > > > This *introduction* certainly opens a field for further play > > Larry > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Greg Thompson > > > wrote: > > > > > >> A lovely book indeed! > >> > >> For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I have > >> pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note that > >> this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative > >> Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: > >> > >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false > >> > >> Cheers, > >> greg > >> > >> " > >> > >> One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative > project? > >> as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an observable > >> phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and > explanation, > >> but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in > >> contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit of > >> analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special > place in > >> social science and its practical application, particularly in sciences > such > >> as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is > ethical > >> life. > >> > >> For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act > >> ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them at > the > >> time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science is > >> contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When > governments > >> make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, then > such > >> laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the > >> science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to take > >> policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had deleterious > >> effects on human welfare. > >> > >> In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite the > >> fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a > >> reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms in > >> ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: ?Every > >> activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. > 139). > >> MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the > course of > >> trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are appropriate > to, > >> and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) and > >> ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which are > used > >> to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation of > the > >> form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre > refers > >> to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For MacIntyre > >> also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such as a > >> school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with the > >> whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as such? > >> (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this > conception > >> of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach to > >> Activity Theory. > >> > >> One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important to > the > >> task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of > >> equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting participants > in a > >> project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace of > >> public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat others > as > >> equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals equally, > >> within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated equally > >> and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give orders > to > >> subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, etc. > >> Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within which > >> equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the > >> ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional life > by > >> the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is > *not > >> *a > >> regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing a > >> universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies > before > >> us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated > >> self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of > >> *relations > >> between projects *must be central to our concerns. > >> > >> Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) which > >> requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a > >> discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but > untenable. > >> Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual remote > from > >> the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the > >> discussants *doing > >> together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib (1992) > >> reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed primarily > >> as a *hypothetical > >> *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but rather > as > >> an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the hypothetical > >> interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful at > all > >> such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as > >> representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, > which > >> is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the real > >> relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in which > >> they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation or > >> conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, but > >> encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of > >> collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, attribution, > >> privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of norms, > >> consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of an > >> ethics for the modern, secular world. > >> > >> One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the > concept of > >> nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct projects > >> which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the Treaty > of > >> Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social theory > >> which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its basic > >> units. > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know you > >>> > >> have > >> > >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and > "external > >>> reward." > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Greg Thompson wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you are > >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > us > >>>> > >> on > >> > >>>> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. > >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > intrinsic > >>>> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know nothing > >>>> > >> about > >> > >>>> it! -greg > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < > >>>> > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > >> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Andy, > >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a > >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones > >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so > >>>> > >> on. > >> > >>>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > >>>> of the human sciences? > >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they > are. > >>>> Confused. > >>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Cristina, > >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email > >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > >>>> > >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised > >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > >>>> about it if you have to. > >>>> > >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first > >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of > >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound > >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was > >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better > >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the > >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > >>>> > >>>> For example, my development is not the same the development > >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the > >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. > >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person > >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, > >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > >>>> > >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a > >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, > >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > >>>> > >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > >>>> motives, too. > >>>> > >>>> That's more than enough. > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> ------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Greg and Andy, > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for your comments. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > >>>> of overcoming our > >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > >>>> Cartesian dualism. > >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > >>>> activities in what > >>>> follow. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend > >>>> to prefer to > >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > >>>> Wertsh) instead of > >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) > >>>> development; b) dimensions > >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) > >>>> motives instead of motivation. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > >>>> language and the > >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > >>>> world and I need > >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) > >>>> made of this > >>>> Cartesian world. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 13:37:20 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:37:20 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reviewer required for David Kellogg's new book. Message-ID: Robert, I think your message justifies a new subject line & thread. Congratulations David. Best, Huw On 6 August 2014 21:24, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi Everyone, > I have a copy of David Kellogg's new book: > *The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in > Story-telling with Halliday, Vygotsky, and Shakespeare **Sense Publishers, > Rotterdam, The Netherlands.*and will mail it to anyone who would like to > write a review of it. David did a fabulous job on it and is already using > it in his English classes in Korea. By the way, > He did not ask me to do this. > > *Robert Lake* > > *From the back cover.* > Every storyteller soon discovers the difference between putting a story > inside children and trying to extract it with comprehension questions and > putting children inside a story and having them act it out. Teachers may > experience this as a difference in "difficulty", or in the level of > motivation and enthusiasm, or even in the engagement of creativity and > imagination, and leave it at that. This book explores the divide more > critically and analytically, finding symmetrical and even complementary > problems and affordances with both approaches. > > First, we examine what teachers actually say and do in each approach, using > the systemic-functional grammar of M.A.K. Halliday. > > Secondly, we explore the differences developmentally, using the > cultural-historical psychology of L.S. Vygotsky. > > Thirdly, we explain the differences we find in texts by considering the > history of genres from the fable through the plays of Shakespeare. "Inside" > and "Outside" the story turn out to be two very different modes of > experiencing-the one reflective and narrativizing and the other > participatory and dialogic. These two modes of experience prove to be > equally valuable, and even mutually necessary, but only in the long > run-different approaches are necessary at different moments in the lesson, > different points in development, and even different times in human history. > In the final analysis, though, this distinction is meaningless to children > and to their teachers unless it is of practical use. > > Each chapter employs only the most advanced technology ever developed for > making sense of human experience, namely thinking and talking--though not > necessarily in that order. So every story has a specific narrative to tell, > a concrete set of dialogues to try, and above all a practicable time and a > practical space for children, their teachers, and even their teachers' > teachers, to talk and to think > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:19:05 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 06:19:05 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: And an awesome autistic artistic savant In-Reply-To: <3B9EE931-B648-4D8F-83CE-9CCD6571E243@gmail.com> References: <3B9EE931-B648-4D8F-83CE-9CCD6571E243@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greg: Actually, it's connected. I mean, it's connected to the thread on dualism, where Andy is trying to make the case that Descartes wasn't such a bad guy after all, and that he asked some of the right questions. There IS a real problem for materialism every time you raise your arm. On the face of it, a though, which has no mass whatsoever, is making some mass, which has no thought whatsoever, move. This is a serious violation of the law of conservation of mass and energy, and Descartes was the first one to worry about it. If we are going to put up bronze statues to our first worriers, then Descartes should get one. (I also think he should get one in aluminum foil for the flimsiest possible theory of language, and that it should show a pineal gland dangling from a tin hat.) Of course, our grumpy philosopher is picking on the wrong people again. The real people he needs to pick a fight with are, more or less in this order, David Bakhurst, Ewald Ilyenkov, Vygotsky himself, and Spinoza. Bakhurst is the one who wrote that "Cartesianism is the enemy!" (see "Activity, Consciousness and Communication" in the Cambridge "Mind Culture and Activity" volume edited by Cole, Engestrom and Vasquez in 1997). But Bakhurst doesn't have in mind Descartes idea about the mind being made of special substance, or even Descartes's dualistic ideas about mind and body, or object and idea. He has in mind Descartes' "mirror" conception of consciousness, as a kind of screen or film on which we find reflected the objects of the world when we think, like one of Stephen Wiltshire's four meter paper panoramas. And the "mirror" idea of consciousness is an eidetic notion. It's the kind of immediate reflection of sensory perception that is so attractive to a vulgar materialist and so deadening and impossible to anyone who, like Vygotsky, is trying to describe the semantic structure of consciousness, anyone who is trying to convey the sense in which the mind is like an unfinished text or an ongoing discourse. Now, as it happens, the main people who were arguing for the "eidetic" roots of conceptual thinking in Vygotsky's time were the Nazis. Erich Jaensch, in particular, did a vast and almost unreadable study (I speak feelingly, I have tried to read it) on the eidetic memory, in which he said, among other things, that the literal, eidetic memory, the kind of photographic after-image that we all see when we close our eyes after staring at a bright light, is the mind's first abstract, the mind's first generalization, and the origin of conceptual thought.(Jaensch also, by the way, believed that certain races were unfortunately prone to this kind eidetic thinking, which made them impermeable to clear and crisp German rationalism, and so they unfortunately would have to be exterminated for the good of mankind.) You take a tachioscope. You flash on it two images (say, a donkey and a dachshund). You then ask the eidectic to draw what he or she saw, and you find that you get blurred lines: a dachshund with long legs, or a donkey with a long body. You can even do this with a long hook and a banana, and if the eidetic person is hungry enough, you will find that you get the long hook drawn tantalizingly close to the banana. Vygotsky was fascinated, because Jaensch's theory seems to offer Vygotsky the opportunity to keep his own ideas about concept formation from becoming dualistic, or rather Saussurean. By arguing for the existence of a "non-verbal concept", which he does in his writing on imagination and creativity in the adolescent (also in the Vygotsky Reader, Van der Veer and Valsiner, 1994), he thinks it might be possible to overcome what he sees as the largest weakness in his own theory--that is, the tendency to construct the higher psychological functions as a kind of "second story", a ghost-like, verbalized, and therefore "volitionized" version of each of the lower psychological functions. The three forms of "non-verbal" concept that Jaensch discovered in his experiments on eidetics (the "dynamic" one based on motion, the "fluxion" based on switching back and forth between one image and another, and a third one he doesn't go into, but which is obviously embarrassingly close to vulgar associationism) become the "stairwell" between the lower functions and the higher functions. I think we always have to keep in mind that Vygotsky was not quite as sure about whether Vygotsky was right as we are today. When we read Vygotsky's writings about eidetism, we have to keep checking the calendar. As Vygotsky says in the beginning of Thinking and Speech (which is, after all, almost the last word), many of his ideas went nowhere and had to be abandoned. I think that his work on eidetism was one such. The later Vygotsky was appalled by Jaensch's Nazism (he makes his disgust and disappointment with Jaensch absolutely unambiguous in his essay "Fascism and Psychoneurology", also in the Vygotsky Reader). And the later Vygotsky also rejects the idea of a stairwell, and sees the higher psychological functions as essentially a common room linked by word meanings (with the mind more like a pyramid than a two story house). Finally, the later Vygotsky sees the function of forgetting to be an absolutely essential moment in concept formation. You know the conundrum set by the fifth patriarch of Zen buddhism: The body is a Bodhi tree The mind is just a mirror Dust it daily, keep it clean And concepts will appear. To which Hui-neng, the janitor and future sixth patriarch of Zen, wrote. The body's not a Bodhi tree The mind is not a mirror Since meanings are not things at all Where can the dust appear? (I like to think of Hui-neng writing this with his finger on the dusty rear windshield of the fifth patriarch's car, but like my translation that is rather anachronistic!) David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 7 August 2014 00:16, wrote: > Yes David, the documentary for me thinking about vygotskys writings on > eidetic memory. I remember coming across it in a chapter on adolescence in > vygotskys collected works, but I had a difficult time making head or tail > of it since I had been introduced to Vygotsky as a champion of the critical > importance of language for thought. Maybe you can help me understand better > about what Vygotsky was talking about with this idea of the importance of > eidetic memory in adolescence? > Is language involved at all in this development, or, like Wiltshire, is > language an impediment to eidetic memory (while at the same time being a > boon to other forms of memory, not to mention the social communicative > boon). > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 6, 2014, at 2:22 AM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > > Stephen Wiltshire has a frontispiece and a long footnote in our Korean > > translation of HDHMF (the chapter on memory, of course--we use him to > > explain what an eidetic memory is). Because the documentary on Stephen is > > so relentlessly insistent on Stephen Wiltshire's "unique" gifts, it tends > > to demphasize the memory component of it (a literal memory IS actually > > quite common in autistic people). It also tends to play down what are > > clearly some very serious speech problems (Stephen's apparent inability > to > > complete sentence unless he's heard it before and also his apparent > > inability to understand abstract concepts like "famous", not to mention > the > > terrible moment where he explains to the man who designed the Gherkin > that > > this is a famous building which is found in London, even though they are > > standing in front of a window through which the building is clearly > > visible.). > > > > I think the most touching, and also psychologically perspicacious, moment > > in the documentary film is where his former teacher says she doesn't > really > > know which is most wonderful to her--Stephen's ability to draw or his > > newfound ability to do things like buy a sandwich and even take the > subway > > by himself. After a moment of reflection, his teacher says: "the latter". > > Of course, that's not the view of the documentary writers, but they are > in > > the business of glorifying his marketable skills. > > > > When I first went to China, food was priced by the ingredients, not the > > labour. But art objects were often priced by labour, measured in hours > put > > in: the buyer would have to judge these by the amount of detail. I'm not > > very susceptible to the romantic view of art production (it seems quite > > close to the documentary's insistence of the uniqueness of art > potentials, > > and I really prefer to think of them as ubiquitous, or at least > universally > > available). But I do something find something hard and horrible about the > > gruelling detail of Wiltshire's work. I think it is the lack of > > abstraction; the inability to "fuzz out". Even the distance of the > horizon > > is a rather literal reproduction of what the eye saw. > > > > Tomorrow I have to give a half hour speech on the Sewol disaster in > Korean, > > and I have given up trying to memorize every word; I think I shall just > do > > what normal psychologies do naturally and riff on the slides. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > PS: > > > > By the way at the end of last month he did a panorama of Singapore that > is > > even more impressive, because unlike London, he hasn't lived there all > his > > life. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elgsqXIxKCM > > > > > > > >> On 4 August 2014 03:40, mike cole wrote: > >> > >> Yep that is awesome, Greg. > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Stephen Wiltshire is an autistic artistic savant. He was mute until > age 5 > >>> and used drawing as a way of communicating before he was able to speak. > >>> > >>> Here is a short video (apologies for the commercial nature of it - stop > >> the > >>> video at 3:19 to avoid the commercial!) > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsJbApZ5GF0 > >>> > >>> And here is a longer (35 min) documentary about when his life: > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xklinT2g6wU > >>> > >>> Awesome. > >>> -greg > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>> Assistant Professor > >>> Department of Anthropology > >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>> Brigham Young University > >>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 15:03:49 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 23:03:49 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Dualities and dichotomies Message-ID: Maybe some linguistic clarification is required. Dualism, itself, is not an assertion of two completely distinct systems. Such an assertion is a dichotomy. Dualism simply upholds that there are two useful set of abstractions (or systems) that have yet to be related to each other. Confusion arises when someone asserts that thoughts have no mass etc, because there are people like me (and any adherent to dialectical materialism) who consider such claims ridiculously silly. So one metaphysician's duality is a non-metaphysician's de-facto dichotomy. Best Huw On 6 August 2014 06:34, Andy Blunden wrote: > "Dualism" is a very longstanding philosophical problem and from the time > of Spinoza forward it has been recognised as a problem. In my view, this > problem was not resolved until Hegel, though Kant made important steps > in its solution.It is more that I am opposed to the cry of "dualism" as > a slogan, and the unthinking condemnation of Descartes, for committing a > kind of original sin. "Dualism" is where you say (more or less) the > world is made up of two kinds of substances, ..." but the solution to > the discovery that there are indeed in some given situation two opposite > kinds of entity, is to work out how the two are mediated, i.e., by > introducing a third, or by working out how the two mutually constitute > one another or how one changes into the other and vice versa. How it is > never solved is by (1) declaring it to be a false dichotomy, (2) > inventing a neolog to mean both one and the other, (3) denying any > distinction, or (4) subsuming one under the other. In the specific > instance of the distinction between thought and matter the question is > more difficult, because this question is the most fundamental of all and > cannot be resolved in the ways other dichotomies are resolved. Although > the way the problem is posed - "thought vs matter" - is problematic, > i.e., the very posing of the question seems to imply that thought is a > substance, it is an inescapable dichotomy because we live it every > moment of the day. Aristotle did not know of this dichotomy, because he > took it for granted that the world was just how it was reflected in > thought and language and there was no reason to suppose that if we > looked inside any person's head we would find anything different from > inside anyone else's head. It just never occurred to the ancients to > make "consciousness" an object of science. Anyway, I am happy to defer > to what Vygotsky says in that chapter. I read it and re-read it annually. > > As to the language question, there is no doubt at all that we need > specialised languages in specialised projects such as Psychology. But > that definitively does not mean that researchers should start by making > up words when they come across a difficulty. When the concept first > appears, the word is usually already present. Problems like the relation > between thinking and acting, between individual person's and their > social environment have been around for millennia. They are not new > problems. You would have to have very very good reasons to resolve these > conceptual problems by making up new words. If you can't explain it in > ordinary English, then you probably don't understand it. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> So Andy, I take it that you approve of Cristina's opposition of dualism. >> And as to the need to not rely on our natural language, I wonder if >> Vygtosky is with Cristina (and me) on that one. In the Two Psychologies >> essay that you shared (http://www.marxists.org/ >> archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm), Vygotsky writes: >> >> "H?ffding compares it with the same content expressed in two languages >> which we do not manage to reduce to a common protolanguage. But we want to >> know the content and not the /*language*/ in which it is expressed. In >> physics we have freed ourselves from language in order to study the >> content. We must do the same in psychology." >> >> >> I'll confess to occasionally reading Vygotsky upside down (he often >> introduces opposing positions without any indication that they are opposed >> to his own), so maybe I've got it backwards. I certainly had some >> difficulty discerning the proper context for this paragraph, but it seems >> like it is straight through. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. >> -greg >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson > > wrote: >> >> Andy, >> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair >> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. >> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. >> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - a >> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only ones >> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - >> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and so on. >> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories >> of the human sciences? >> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. >> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose >> some significant problems for imagining things other than they are. >> Confused. >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> Cristina, >> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an email >> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I >> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? >> >> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up >> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, >> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some >> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use >> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a specialised >> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is >> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try >> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two >> about it if you have to. >> >> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that first >> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many of >> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of wound >> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world was >> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, better >> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and >> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in the >> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. >> >> For example, my development is not the same the development >> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can >> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must >> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post >> though. I said that the relation between projects was the >> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely true. >> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a person >> and a project they are committed to is equally important, >> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. >> >> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I >> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For a >> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those >> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social formation, >> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my >> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for >> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of >> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial >> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation >> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or >> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the >> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her >> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless >> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's >> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" >> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. >> >> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic >> motives, too. >> >> That's more than enough. >> Andy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >> Greg and Andy, >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> >> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties >> of overcoming our >> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the >> Cartesian dualism. >> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect >> activities in what >> follow. >> >> >> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I tend >> to prefer to >> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and >> Wertsh) instead of >> individual and activity (or context or project) >> development; b) dimensions >> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon >> (micro-meso-macro); c) >> motives instead of motivation. >> >> >> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new >> language and the >> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian >> world and I need >> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are (am) >> made of this >> Cartesian world. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Aug 6 15:22:09 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 07:22:09 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Reviewer required for David Kellogg's new book. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Huw (and thanks, Rob!) The copies that the publisher sent to Rob, if they are like my copies, do not have index numbers yet! I put the index numbers in (twice....grrrrrr) but because of last minute formatting the index numbers were all wrong, and had to be redone, and they didn't get redone at the last minute (being somewhat eidetic, I insisted on lots of pictures and diagrammes and whatnot and this makes the book rather hard to format). The book's being reprinted, this time with index numbers. So whoever reviews it should, well, go easy on the lack of numbers in the index. The new copies should be out in about two weeks. It's still a good book, if you don't try to read it backwards! David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 7 August 2014 05:37, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Robert, > > I think your message justifies a new subject line & thread. > Congratulations David. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 6 August 2014 21:24, Robert Lake wrote: > > > Hi Everyone, > > I have a copy of David Kellogg's new book: > > *The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in > > Story-telling with Halliday, Vygotsky, and Shakespeare **Sense > Publishers, > > Rotterdam, The Netherlands.*and will mail it to anyone who would like to > > write a review of it. David did a fabulous job on it and is already using > > it in his English classes in Korea. By the way, > > He did not ask me to do this. > > > > *Robert Lake* > > > > *From the back cover.* > > Every storyteller soon discovers the difference between putting a story > > inside children and trying to extract it with comprehension questions and > > putting children inside a story and having them act it out. Teachers may > > experience this as a difference in "difficulty", or in the level of > > motivation and enthusiasm, or even in the engagement of creativity and > > imagination, and leave it at that. This book explores the divide more > > critically and analytically, finding symmetrical and even complementary > > problems and affordances with both approaches. > > > > First, we examine what teachers actually say and do in each approach, > using > > the systemic-functional grammar of M.A.K. Halliday. > > > > Secondly, we explore the differences developmentally, using the > > cultural-historical psychology of L.S. Vygotsky. > > > > Thirdly, we explain the differences we find in texts by considering the > > history of genres from the fable through the plays of Shakespeare. > "Inside" > > and "Outside" the story turn out to be two very different modes of > > experiencing-the one reflective and narrativizing and the other > > participatory and dialogic. These two modes of experience prove to be > > equally valuable, and even mutually necessary, but only in the long > > run-different approaches are necessary at different moments in the > lesson, > > different points in development, and even different times in human > history. > > In the final analysis, though, this distinction is meaningless to > children > > and to their teachers unless it is of practical use. > > > > Each chapter employs only the most advanced technology ever developed for > > making sense of human experience, namely thinking and talking--though not > > necessarily in that order. So every story has a specific narrative to > tell, > > a concrete set of dialogues to try, and above all a practicable time and > a > > practical space for children, their teachers, and even their teachers' > > teachers, to talk and to think > > > > > > > From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Thu Aug 7 02:48:26 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 11:48:26 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Andy, I intend objective motive as the motive of the activity. Objective does not refer to objectivity, objectiveness and judging objectively here. Objective motive refers to the idea that "the object of an activity is its true motive." This is the terminology proposed by Leontiev in Activity, Consciousness, and Personality, section 3.5 The General Structure of Activity, page 62 However, I tend to not use the locution 'objective motive'. But motive/object. Huw, I take the stance of Hyysalo. He noted that in Leontiev?s framework there is no ?personal motive?, but a personal sense of motive. Hyysalo, S. (2005). "Objects and Motives in a Product Design Process." *Mind, Culture and Activity* *12*(1): 19-36., note 6. My interviews to the employers and managers begun by questions like "What does this enterprise do? what are the goods produced? how work is organized? assembly line or machine tools?" etc. So I interpreted their answers as a description of the business in which the enterprise is involved. That gave me information and data to classify the enterprise by referring to the typology I had elaborated about the main strategies of production. As I wrote in one of my previous emails, the strategy of production is what I consider the object of activity of the firm. My interviews to the older workers started by asking to tell me when they begun to work, as a way to prompt a narrative of their life. The personal sense of motive - that is the subjective way to relate to the motive and oject of the activity of the firm - has emerged through the emotions, feelings, thoughts which the older workers were expressing while they were talking about their tasks. Huw, you have reached a conclusion about the importance of affect in detecting motive (but it would be better to say: personal sense of motive) which was also elaborated by Chaiklin in his book The Theory and Practice of Cultural-historical Psychology, in the chapter The Category of 'Personality' in Cultural-Historical Psychology. Thank you for your comments and questions. Cristina 2014-08-06 22:24 GMT+02:00 Robert Lake : > Hi Everyone, > I have a copy of David Kellogg's new book: > *The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in > Story-telling with Halliday, Vygotsky, and Shakespeare **Sense Publishers, > Rotterdam, The Netherlands.*and will mail it to anyone who would like to > write a review of it. David did a fabulous job on it and is already using > it in his English classes in Korea. By the way, > He did not ask me to do this. > > *Robert Lake* > > *From the back cover.* > Every storyteller soon discovers the difference between putting a story > inside children and trying to extract it with comprehension questions and > putting children inside a story and having them act it out. Teachers may > experience this as a difference in "difficulty", or in the level of > motivation and enthusiasm, or even in the engagement of creativity and > imagination, and leave it at that. This book explores the divide more > critically and analytically, finding symmetrical and even complementary > problems and affordances with both approaches. > > First, we examine what teachers actually say and do in each approach, using > the systemic-functional grammar of M.A.K. Halliday. > > Secondly, we explore the differences developmentally, using the > cultural-historical psychology of L.S. Vygotsky. > > Thirdly, we explain the differences we find in texts by considering the > history of genres from the fable through the plays of Shakespeare. "Inside" > and "Outside" the story turn out to be two very different modes of > experiencing-the one reflective and narrativizing and the other > participatory and dialogic. These two modes of experience prove to be > equally valuable, and even mutually necessary, but only in the long > run-different approaches are necessary at different moments in the lesson, > different points in development, and even different times in human history. > In the final analysis, though, this distinction is meaningless to children > and to their teachers unless it is of practical use. > > Each chapter employs only the most advanced technology ever developed for > making sense of human experience, namely thinking and talking--though not > necessarily in that order. So every story has a specific narrative to tell, > a concrete set of dialogues to try, and above all a practicable time and a > practical space for children, their teachers, and even their teachers' > teachers, to talk and to think > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:46 PM, wrote: > > > Thanks Andy for this extension. the > > > > IF the difficulty is how to conceptualize this *general* community > without > > abstractions such as *context* or *society* and *project* is a preferable > > unit of analysis which becomes more complicated when communication is > > between multiple projects then we require a DIFFERENT ETHICS [and > language > > and concepts]. > > > > Rather tan the concept *play* I will translate to *subject matter* which > > may have some affinity with *project* > > > > IF projects are *projected* then they may be *made available* AS *subject > > matter*. > > > > I would like to also bring into this discussion the concept of > > *perspective* as used by Justus Buchler in his book *Toward a General > > Theory of Human Development* > > > > > > Robert Corrington in his reflections on Buchler?s book notes that for > > Buchler, > > > > ?A perspective is a ?humanly occupied order? that has a direction and a > > meaning BEYOND given conscious intents. Buchler saw the *community of > > interpreters* as the place where perspectives [as humanly occupied order] > > are shared and communicated] > > > > > > Andy I will pay attention to your developing the notion of *projects* and > > ETHICS. > > > > PLAY, as a concept shares with Buchler?s concept of *perspective* a > notion > > of *subject matter* which HAPPENS to us in our engagements. *Subject > > matter* [die Sache] is the *mediating 3rd* within dialogue. > > > > I wonder if there is a possibility of a to-and-fro translating between > the > > concepts *subject matter* and *projects*. Both concepts may be > *projected* > > as a kind of order beyond mere subjective *will power* > > > > Thanks Andy for the chat > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Andy Blunden > > Sent: ?Tuesday?, ?August? ?5?, ?2014 ?8?:?29? ?PM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about play, Larry, and I wouldn't want to counterpose > > Heller to MacIntyre. Heller is adding a further dimension to what > > MacIntyre has pointed out. The importance for me is how she points to > > the fact that different ethics (and different forms of cognition and > > language) apply within a project as opposed to in "the general > > community." The difficulty then is how to conceptualise this "general > > community." This is where people often introduce open-ended abstractions > > like "context" or "society", but I prefer to stick to project as a unit > > of analysis, and recognise that communication and interaction between > > projects requires a different ethics (and language, concepts, etc.) than > > that which applies within any one project - you don't talk to your > > family the same way your talk to strangers in the street or colleagues > > at work. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > > Greg > > > thank you for posting this section of Andy's book. > > > Andy > > > I appreciated your highlighting the ethical concerns and linking > projects > > > to MacIntyre's exploration of *virtue* and *ethics*. > > > > > > I would like to hear more about Heller refuting MacIntyre's > understanding > > > of the loss of virtue through the loss of a dense ethos of > institutional > > > relations in the tendency or movement towards the looser ethos of > > > modernity. > > > > > > Is Heller questioning the communitarian orientation of MacIntyre's > > ethics?? > > > > > > This *introduction* certainly opens a field for further play > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> A lovely book indeed! > > >> > > >> For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I > have > > >> pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note > that > > >> this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative > > >> Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: > > >> > > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> greg > > >> > > >> " > > >> > > >> One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative > > project? > > >> as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an > observable > > >> phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and > > explanation, > > >> but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in > > >> contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit > of > > >> analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special > > place in > > >> social science and its practical application, particularly in sciences > > such > > >> as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is > > ethical > > >> life. > > >> > > >> For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act > > >> ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them at > > the > > >> time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science is > > >> contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When > > governments > > >> make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, then > > such > > >> laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the > > >> science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to > take > > >> policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had deleterious > > >> effects on human welfare. > > >> > > >> In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite > the > > >> fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a > > >> reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms > in > > >> ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: > ?Every > > >> activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. > > 139). > > >> MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the > > course of > > >> trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are appropriate > > to, > > >> and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) and > > >> ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which are > > used > > >> to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation of > > the > > >> form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre > > refers > > >> to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For > MacIntyre > > >> also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such as > a > > >> school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with > the > > >> whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as > such? > > >> (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this > > conception > > >> of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach to > > >> Activity Theory. > > >> > > >> One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important to > > the > > >> task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of > > >> equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting participants > > in a > > >> project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace of > > >> public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat > others > > as > > >> equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals equally, > > >> within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated > equally > > >> and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give > orders > > to > > >> subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, > etc. > > >> Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within which > > >> equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the > > >> ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional life > > by > > >> the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is > > *not > > >> *a > > >> regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing a > > >> universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies > > before > > >> us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated > > >> self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of > > >> *relations > > >> between projects *must be central to our concerns. > > >> > > >> Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) > which > > >> requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a > > >> discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but > > untenable. > > >> Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual remote > > from > > >> the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the > > >> discussants *doing > > >> together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib > (1992) > > >> reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed primarily > > >> as a *hypothetical > > >> *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but rather > > as > > >> an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the > hypothetical > > >> interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful at > > all > > >> such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as > > >> representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, > > which > > >> is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the > real > > >> relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in > which > > >> they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation or > > >> conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, but > > >> encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of > > >> collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, > attribution, > > >> privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of norms, > > >> consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of > an > > >> ethics for the modern, secular world. > > >> > > >> One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the > > concept of > > >> nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct projects > > >> which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the Treaty > > of > > >> Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social > theory > > >> which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its basic > > >> units. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > > >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know > you > > >>> > > >> have > > >> > > >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and > > "external > > >>> reward." > > >>> > > >>> Andy > > >>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Greg Thompson wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you > are > > >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you sell > > us > > >>>> > > >> on > > >> > > >>>> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > motivation. > > >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > > intrinsic > > >>>> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know > nothing > > >>>> > > >> about > > >> > > >>>> it! -greg > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < > > >>>> > > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > >> > > >>>> > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Andy, > > >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > > >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad guy. > > >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > > >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism - > a > > >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only > ones > > >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > > >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and > so > > >>>> > > >> on. > > >> > > >>>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing categories > > >>>> of the human sciences? > > >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > > >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will pose > > >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they > > are. > > >>>> Confused. > > >>>> -greg > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden > >>>> > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Cristina, > > >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an > email > > >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a bit I > > >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > >>>> > > >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > > >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of neologs, > > >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > > >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must use > > >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a > specialised > > >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > > >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't try > > >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or two > > >>>> about it if you have to. > > >>>> > > >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that > first > > >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the many > of > > >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of > wound > > >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world > was > > >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, > better > > >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words and > > >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in > the > > >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > >>>> > > >>>> For example, my development is not the same the development > > >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words can > > >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > > >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier post > > >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the > > >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely > true. > > >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a > person > > >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, > > >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > >>>> > > >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But I > > >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. For > a > > >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., those > > >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social > formation, > > >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in my > > >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful for > > >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* of > > >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > > >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > > >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family (or > > >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > > >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > > >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > > >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the worker's > > >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > > >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > >>>> > > >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > > >>>> motives, too. > > >>>> > > >>>> That's more than enough. > > >>>> Andy > > >>>> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>> ------------ > > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Greg and Andy, > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you for your comments. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the difficulties > > >>>> of overcoming our > > >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > > >>>> Cartesian dualism. > > >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > > >>>> activities in what > > >>>> follow. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I > tend > > >>>> to prefer to > > >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole and > > >>>> Wertsh) instead of > > >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) > > >>>> development; b) dimensions > > >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > > >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) > > >>>> motives instead of motivation. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? new > > >>>> language and the > > >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still Cartesian > > >>>> world and I need > > >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are > (am) > > >>>> made of this > > >>>> Cartesian world. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> -- > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >> Assistant Professor > > >> Department of Anthropology > > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >> Brigham Young University > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 7 05:15:35 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 22:15:35 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <53E36DE7.4090907@mira.net> Yes, I understand that, Cristina. That is Leontyev's approach. You have correctly represented it. It's just that I don't agree with it. As I suggested, to privilege one point of view as the true point of view and all other points of view as "personal" (1) Sets up a bad dualism, actually far worse than any dualism Descartes was guilty of. (2) Reflects the world ANL lived in: the PolitBuro's view was the "objective" and "true" aim of all activities in the USSR. Everyone fulfilled their targets, exceptr of course for dissidents and saboteurs, but in fact it was all mostly a fiction. Since the 1940s, sociologists have shown that multiple interests are at play in any business enterprise. A binary relation is quite inadequate to represent the relations active within a business or any activity, far less a modern capitalist country. (3) Vygotsky's approach is in my opinion far superior, in that instead of having an unproblematic, objective or true object, it relies on how each of the participants in the activity conceive of its object. This was not in itself sufficient for an Activity Theory, but it is a much better start than Leontyev's which is inferior to sociological theories of 60 years ago, as I see it. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > > I intend objective motive as the motive of the activity. Objective does not > refer to objectivity, objectiveness and judging objectively here. Objective > motive refers to the idea that "the object of an activity is its true > motive." > This is the terminology proposed by Leontiev in Activity, Consciousness, > and Personality, section 3.5 The General Structure of Activity, page 62 > However, I tend to not use the locution 'objective motive'. But > motive/object. > > H > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Aug 7 08:25:02 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 09:25:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E36DE7.4090907@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> <53E36DE7.4090907@mira.net> Message-ID: <5573E3E1-E1DE-482D-9C76-0461F03B49EA@gmail.com> Andy, I wonder if you would be warmer to Leigh Starrs idea of boundary objects? I do believe a special issue of MCA on Starrs work is in the works. Rumor has it. Greg Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 7, 2014, at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Yes, I understand that, Cristina. That is Leontyev's approach. You have correctly represented it. > It's just that I don't agree with it. > As I suggested, to privilege one point of view as the true point of view and all other points of view as "personal" > (1) Sets up a bad dualism, actually far worse than any dualism Descartes was guilty of. > (2) Reflects the world ANL lived in: the PolitBuro's view was the "objective" and "true" aim of all activities in the USSR. Everyone fulfilled their targets, exceptr of course for dissidents and saboteurs, but in fact it was all mostly a fiction. Since the 1940s, sociologists have shown that multiple interests are at play in any business enterprise. A binary relation is quite inadequate to represent the relations active within a business or any activity, far less a modern capitalist country. > (3) Vygotsky's approach is in my opinion far superior, in that instead of having an unproblematic, objective or true object, it relies on how each of the participants in the activity conceive of its object. This was not in itself sufficient for an Activity Theory, but it is a much better start than Leontyev's which is inferior to sociological theories of 60 years ago, as I see it. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> Andy, >> >> I intend objective motive as the motive of the activity. Objective does not >> refer to objectivity, objectiveness and judging objectively here. Objective >> motive refers to the idea that "the object of an activity is its true >> motive." >> This is the terminology proposed by Leontiev in Activity, Consciousness, >> and Personality, section 3.5 The General Structure of Activity, page 62 >> However, I tend to not use the locution 'objective motive'. But >> motive/object. >> >> H > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 7 08:38:35 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 01:38:35 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <5573E3E1-E1DE-482D-9C76-0461F03B49EA@gmail.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> <53E36DE7.4090907@mira.net> <5573E3E1-E1DE-482D-9C76-0461F03B49EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53E39D7B.4090901@mira.net> Perhaps Greg. I am not familiar with Leight Starr's work. The only boundary objects I know are Engestrom's, and in his case it is a step in a good direction, but it is a bit like putting a lightweight into a heavyweight fight but giving him bigger gloves to compensate. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > Andy, > I wonder if you would be warmer to Leigh Starrs idea of boundary objects? I do believe a special issue of MCA on Starrs work is in the works. Rumor has it. > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > >> On Aug 7, 2014, at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> Yes, I understand that, Cristina. That is Leontyev's approach. You have correctly represented it. >> It's just that I don't agree with it. >> As I suggested, to privilege one point of view as the true point of view and all other points of view as "personal" >> (1) Sets up a bad dualism, actually far worse than any dualism Descartes was guilty of. >> (2) Reflects the world ANL lived in: the PolitBuro's view was the "objective" and "true" aim of all activities in the USSR. Everyone fulfilled their targets, exceptr of course for dissidents and saboteurs, but in fact it was all mostly a fiction. Since the 1940s, sociologists have shown that multiple interests are at play in any business enterprise. A binary relation is quite inadequate to represent the relations active within a business or any activity, far less a modern capitalist country. >> (3) Vygotsky's approach is in my opinion far superior, in that instead of having an unproblematic, objective or true object, it relies on how each of the participants in the activity conceive of its object. This was not in itself sufficient for an Activity Theory, but it is a much better start than Leontyev's which is inferior to sociological theories of 60 years ago, as I see it. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >> >>> Andy, >>> >>> I intend objective motive as the motive of the activity. Objective does not >>> refer to objectivity, objectiveness and judging objectively here. Objective >>> motive refers to the idea that "the object of an activity is its true >>> motive." >>> This is the terminology proposed by Leontiev in Activity, Consciousness, >>> and Personality, section 3.5 The General Structure of Activity, page 62 >>> However, I tend to not use the locution 'objective motive'. But >>> motive/object. >>> >>> H >>> > > > From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Thu Aug 7 09:17:09 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 18:17:09 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E39D7B.4090901@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> <53E36DE7.4090907@mira.net> <5573E3E1-E1DE-482D-9C76-0461F03B49EA@gmail.com> <53E39D7B.4090901@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, what I like of the theory of activiy is that it provides something on which we can anchor the collective material activity: its object. We cannot deny that in an industrial production someone has started a business and defined the strategy of production and its consequent organization of work. This is a 'true' object in the sense that it has concrete consequences for the workers. And it is not a personal motive (the motive of the employer) because the motive behind an industrial production has to respond to some cultural-historical need (need of shoes, of cars, of good Italian wine and not only French wine :-))) ). What I tried to show with my research is exactly what you say: you talks about the multiple interests in an organization, I talk of different personal senses of the motive/object of the enterprise. As I tried to explain, I have my theoretical reasons to prefer to use the concept of motives instead of the concept of motivation or interests. Cristina 2014-08-07 17:38 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > Perhaps Greg. I am not familiar with Leight Starr's work. > The only boundary objects I know are Engestrom's, and in his case it is a > step in a good direction, but it is a bit like putting a lightweight into a > heavyweight fight but giving him bigger gloves to compensate. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com wrote: > >> Andy, >> I wonder if you would be warmer to Leigh Starrs idea of boundary objects? >> I do believe a special issue of MCA on Starrs work is in the works. Rumor >> has it. >> Greg >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>> Yes, I understand that, Cristina. That is Leontyev's approach. You have >>> correctly represented it. >>> It's just that I don't agree with it. >>> As I suggested, to privilege one point of view as the true point of view >>> and all other points of view as "personal" >>> (1) Sets up a bad dualism, actually far worse than any dualism Descartes >>> was guilty of. >>> (2) Reflects the world ANL lived in: the PolitBuro's view was the >>> "objective" and "true" aim of all activities in the USSR. Everyone >>> fulfilled their targets, exceptr of course for dissidents and saboteurs, >>> but in fact it was all mostly a fiction. Since the 1940s, sociologists have >>> shown that multiple interests are at play in any business enterprise. A >>> binary relation is quite inadequate to represent the relations active >>> within a business or any activity, far less a modern capitalist country. >>> (3) Vygotsky's approach is in my opinion far superior, in that instead >>> of having an unproblematic, objective or true object, it relies on how each >>> of the participants in the activity conceive of its object. This was not in >>> itself sufficient for an Activity Theory, but it is a much better start >>> than Leontyev's which is inferior to sociological theories of 60 years ago, >>> as I see it. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Andy, >>>> >>>> I intend objective motive as the motive of the activity. Objective does >>>> not >>>> refer to objectivity, objectiveness and judging objectively here. >>>> Objective >>>> motive refers to the idea that "the object of an activity is its true >>>> motive." >>>> This is the terminology proposed by Leontiev in Activity, Consciousness, >>>> and Personality, section 3.5 The General Structure of Activity, page 62 >>>> However, I tend to not use the locution 'objective motive'. But >>>> motive/object. >>>> >>>> H >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Aug 7 09:21:50 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 16:21:50 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> Message-ID: <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> I'm surprised to hear you say this, Andy. I would think that an argument could be made that the motive, the interest, of a class could be considered objective, in the sense that it confronts individuals as something independent of their personal motives. And even that the interest of one class in particular could be considered objective in the sense that it aligns with - or drives - a historical movement towards greater equity and lesser exploitation. Martin On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal? From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Aug 7 12:18:16 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 20:18:16 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <53E1A122.4070105@mira.net> <53e28c6a.a97c420a.086d.4de5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Maria, I've indented my responses below. On 7 August 2014 10:48, Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Andy, > > I intend objective motive as the motive of the activity. Objective does not > refer to objectivity, objectiveness and judging objectively here. Objective > motive refers to the idea that "the object of an activity is its true > motive." > This is the terminology proposed by Leontiev in Activity, Consciousness, > and Personality, section 3.5 The General Structure of Activity, page 62 > However, I tend to not use the locution 'objective motive'. But > motive/object. > > Huw, > I take the stance of Hyysalo. He noted that in Leontiev?s framework there > is no ?personal motive?, but a personal sense of motive. Hyysalo, S. > (2005). "Objects and Motives in a Product Design Process." *Mind, Culture > and Activity* *12*(1): 19-36., note 6. > That seems perfectly reasonable and, from my readings and thinkings, chimes with the Vygotsky self-control paper in the form of discrete motives only manifesting in selection between different orientations (i.e. of where to throw oneself next). > > My interviews to the employers and managers begun by questions like "What > does this enterprise do? what are the goods produced? how work is > organized? assembly line or machine tools?" etc. > So I interpreted their answers as a description of the business in which > the enterprise is involved. That gave me information and data to classify > the enterprise by referring to the typology I had elaborated about the main > strategies of production. As I wrote in one of my previous emails, the > strategy of production is what I consider the object of activity of the > firm. > > Your attributing an object of activity to a company (?) seems a bit awkward to me in terms of locution. A strategy is a plan -- a sets of goals etc -- but it is the (ongoing) stable relation that the plan is designed to achieve that would consititute something like the object of activity (do you agree?) i.e. a specific form of production with the character demarcated by the manifest plan (the real strategy, which might be different from the claimed strategy). With respect to (personal) activities mediating between the individual(s) and the demands, I would locate the individual's objective imagination as centrally applied to both. The acitivity of the individual is maintained (held steady) through their objective imagination, which is used to negotiate (and is partially derived from) the demands of the situation (demands of mass production, lack of sleep etc). Hence a hierarchy of motives might resolve to a hierarchy of relations of psychological functions, yielding objective imagination (Vygotsky again), depending on your meaning of hierarchy of motives... > My interviews to the older workers started by asking to tell me when they > begun to work, as a way to prompt a narrative of their life. > The personal sense of motive - that is the subjective way to relate to the > motive and oject of the activity of the firm - has emerged through the > emotions, feelings, thoughts which the older workers were expressing while > they were talking about their tasks. > Yes, although if it is a "classically western" structure (strategy of production), then the needs of the workers will not actually figure within it (much)! The fact that you did research (for them) suggests that they are a bit more "advanced" than classically western, i.e. that they are groping for relations between strategy of production and the needs of the workers to foster effective learning. Out of interest, did the organisation have some initial stimulus for the interest, e.g. problems in effective learning? > > Huw, you have reached a conclusion about the importance of affect in > detecting motive (but it would be better to say: personal sense of motive) > which was also elaborated by Chaiklin in his book The Theory and Practice > of Cultural-historical Psychology, in the chapter > The Category of 'Personality' in Cultural-Historical Psychology. > Thanks, Cristina. I'm aware of some of Seth's methods (I don't recall whether I've read that paper though). The germ cell, as I understand he & Mariane to use and describe, is contradicitory to me. But I have, I believe, discovered a resolution to that (hooray). Best, Huw > > Thank you for your comments and questions. > > Cristina > > > > > 2014-08-06 22:24 GMT+02:00 Robert Lake : > > > Hi Everyone, > > I have a copy of David Kellogg's new book: > > *The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit: Narrative and Dialogue in > > Story-telling with Halliday, Vygotsky, and Shakespeare **Sense > Publishers, > > Rotterdam, The Netherlands.*and will mail it to anyone who would like to > > write a review of it. David did a fabulous job on it and is already using > > it in his English classes in Korea. By the way, > > He did not ask me to do this. > > > > *Robert Lake* > > > > *From the back cover.* > > Every storyteller soon discovers the difference between putting a story > > inside children and trying to extract it with comprehension questions and > > putting children inside a story and having them act it out. Teachers may > > experience this as a difference in "difficulty", or in the level of > > motivation and enthusiasm, or even in the engagement of creativity and > > imagination, and leave it at that. This book explores the divide more > > critically and analytically, finding symmetrical and even complementary > > problems and affordances with both approaches. > > > > First, we examine what teachers actually say and do in each approach, > using > > the systemic-functional grammar of M.A.K. Halliday. > > > > Secondly, we explore the differences developmentally, using the > > cultural-historical psychology of L.S. Vygotsky. > > > > Thirdly, we explain the differences we find in texts by considering the > > history of genres from the fable through the plays of Shakespeare. > "Inside" > > and "Outside" the story turn out to be two very different modes of > > experiencing-the one reflective and narrativizing and the other > > participatory and dialogic. These two modes of experience prove to be > > equally valuable, and even mutually necessary, but only in the long > > run-different approaches are necessary at different moments in the > lesson, > > different points in development, and even different times in human > history. > > In the final analysis, though, this distinction is meaningless to > children > > and to their teachers unless it is of practical use. > > > > Each chapter employs only the most advanced technology ever developed for > > making sense of human experience, namely thinking and talking--though not > > necessarily in that order. So every story has a specific narrative to > tell, > > a concrete set of dialogues to try, and above all a practicable time and > a > > practical space for children, their teachers, and even their teachers' > > teachers, to talk and to think > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:46 PM, wrote: > > > > > Thanks Andy for this extension. the > > > > > > IF the difficulty is how to conceptualize this *general* community > > without > > > abstractions such as *context* or *society* and *project* is a > preferable > > > unit of analysis which becomes more complicated when communication is > > > between multiple projects then we require a DIFFERENT ETHICS [and > > language > > > and concepts]. > > > > > > Rather tan the concept *play* I will translate to *subject matter* > which > > > may have some affinity with *project* > > > > > > IF projects are *projected* then they may be *made available* AS > *subject > > > matter*. > > > > > > I would like to also bring into this discussion the concept of > > > *perspective* as used by Justus Buchler in his book *Toward a General > > > Theory of Human Development* > > > > > > > > > Robert Corrington in his reflections on Buchler?s book notes that for > > > Buchler, > > > > > > ?A perspective is a ?humanly occupied order? that has a direction and a > > > meaning BEYOND given conscious intents. Buchler saw the *community of > > > interpreters* as the place where perspectives [as humanly occupied > order] > > > are shared and communicated] > > > > > > > > > Andy I will pay attention to your developing the notion of *projects* > and > > > ETHICS. > > > > > > PLAY, as a concept shares with Buchler?s concept of *perspective* a > > notion > > > of *subject matter* which HAPPENS to us in our engagements. *Subject > > > matter* [die Sache] is the *mediating 3rd* within dialogue. > > > > > > I wonder if there is a possibility of a to-and-fro translating between > > the > > > concepts *subject matter* and *projects*. Both concepts may be > > *projected* > > > as a kind of order beyond mere subjective *will power* > > > > > > Thanks Andy for the chat > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Andy Blunden > > > Sent: ?Tuesday?, ?August? ?5?, ?2014 ?8?:?29? ?PM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about play, Larry, and I wouldn't want to counterpose > > > Heller to MacIntyre. Heller is adding a further dimension to what > > > MacIntyre has pointed out. The importance for me is how she points to > > > the fact that different ethics (and different forms of cognition and > > > language) apply within a project as opposed to in "the general > > > community." The difficulty then is how to conceptualise this "general > > > community." This is where people often introduce open-ended > abstractions > > > like "context" or "society", but I prefer to stick to project as a unit > > > of analysis, and recognise that communication and interaction between > > > projects requires a different ethics (and language, concepts, etc.) > than > > > that which applies within any one project - you don't talk to your > > > family the same way your talk to strangers in the street or colleagues > > > at work. > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > Larry Purss wrote: > > > > Greg > > > > thank you for posting this section of Andy's book. > > > > Andy > > > > I appreciated your highlighting the ethical concerns and linking > > projects > > > > to MacIntyre's exploration of *virtue* and *ethics*. > > > > > > > > I would like to hear more about Heller refuting MacIntyre's > > understanding > > > > of the loss of virtue through the loss of a dense ethos of > > institutional > > > > relations in the tendency or movement towards the looser ethos of > > > > modernity. > > > > > > > > Is Heller questioning the communitarian orientation of MacIntyre's > > > ethics?? > > > > > > > > This *introduction* certainly opens a field for further play > > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> A lovely book indeed! > > > >> > > > >> For those playing along at home (and without access to the book), I > > have > > > >> pasted the relevant section from Andy's chapter below. Please note > > that > > > >> this is from Andy's introductory chapter in the book Collaborative > > > >> Projects: An Interdisciplinary Study. The book can be found here: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=Ukv3AwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > >> > > > >> Cheers, > > > >> greg > > > >> > > > >> " > > > >> > > > >> One of the great strengths of Activity Theory with ?collaborative > > > project? > > > >> as the unit of analysis is that collaboration is not only an > > observable > > > >> phenomenon which can be a means of scientific description and > > > explanation, > > > >> but it is also an *ethic*, and one with powerful normative force in > > > >> contemporary, secular society. Having a concept which is both a unit > > of > > > >> analysis for science and a secular ethical norm gives it a special > > > place in > > > >> social science and its practical application, particularly in > sciences > > > such > > > >> as economics, jurisprudence and sociology whose subject matter is > > > ethical > > > >> life. > > > >> > > > >> For example, economic science assumes that economic agents will act > > > >> ?rationally? within the bounds of the information available to them > at > > > the > > > >> time. But the definition of ?rational? assumed by economic science > is > > > >> contrary to the ethics of large sections of social life. When > > > governments > > > >> make policies and laws based on a conception of what is ethical, > then > > > such > > > >> laws function so as to *propagate *the ethic which is built into the > > > >> science. This process, which has gone on since governments began to > > take > > > >> policy advice from economists in the 18th century, has had > deleterious > > > >> effects on human welfare. > > > >> > > > >> In 1981, Alasdair MacIntyre published *After Virtue*, which, despite > > the > > > >> fact that MacIntyre had converted to Catholicism in 1980, became a > > > >> reference point for secular ethics. MacIntyre situates ethical norms > > in > > > >> ?practices? which he understands much as I understand ?projects?: > > ?Every > > > >> activity, every enquiry, every practice aims at some good? (1981, p. > > > 139). > > > >> MacIntyre distinguished between ?internal goods? ?realized in the > > > course of > > > >> trying to achieve those standards of excellence which are > appropriate > > > to, > > > >> and partially definitive of, that form of activity? (1981, p. 175) > and > > > >> ?external goods? such as prizes, monetary rewards and wages which > are > > > used > > > >> to sustain the practice, and are associated with the transformation > of > > > the > > > >> form of practice into an institution. In this connection, MacIntyre > > > refers > > > >> to the ?corrupting power of institutions? (1981, p. 181). For > > MacIntyre > > > >> also, the concept of ?project? extends from the organizations such > as > > a > > > >> school or hospital to entire political communities, ?concerned with > > the > > > >> whole of life, not with this or that good, but with man?s good as > > such? > > > >> (1981, p. 146). The virtue ethics which MacIntyre builds on this > > > conception > > > >> of social life is precisely consistent with the ?project? approach > to > > > >> Activity Theory. > > > >> > > > >> One qualification to MacIntyre?s ethical project which is important > to > > > the > > > >> task at hand is Agnes Heller?s (1987) contrast between the sense of > > > >> equality which prevails within the ?dense ethos? uniting > participants > > > in a > > > >> project, and the ?loose ethos? which characterizes the marketplace > of > > > >> public intercourse. Heller observes that the obligation to treat > > others > > > as > > > >> equals is not universal. While we are obliged to treat equals > equally, > > > >> within the practices of an institution ?equals should be treated > > equally > > > >> and unequals unequally? ? the boss gets paid more, managers give > > orders > > > to > > > >> subordinates, parents bear the burdens of care for their children, > > etc. > > > >> Utopian dreams notwithstanding, there is no real project within > which > > > >> equality is truly the norm. Consequently, Heller points out that the > > > >> ongoing displacement of the formerly dense ethos of institutional > life > > > by > > > >> the loose ethos of modernity which underlies MacIntyre?s concerns is > > > *not > > > >> *a > > > >> regressive development. However, the critical problem of developing > a > > > >> universal ethos which can sustain a genuinely human life still lies > > > before > > > >> us. Since human freedom can only be attained through mediated > > > >> self-determination, *i.e.*, participation in projects, the ethics of > > > >> *relations > > > >> between projects *must be central to our concerns. > > > >> > > > >> Finally, I will briefly touch on discourse ethics (Habermas, 2001) > > which > > > >> requires that ?all those affected? be counted as participants in a > > > >> discourse. This requirement is not only vague and abstract, but > > > untenable. > > > >> Who decides who is affected, and how exactly does an individual > remote > > > from > > > >> the discourse participate? But more significantly, what are the > > > >> discussants *doing > > > >> together *which gives a purpose to the discourse? Seyla Benhabib > > (1992) > > > >> reminds us that ?discourse ethics ... is not to be construed > primarily > > > >> as a *hypothetical > > > >> *thought process, carried out singly by the moral agent ... but > rather > > > as > > > >> an *actual *dialogue situation.? Moral maxims based on the > > hypothetical > > > >> interests of a generalized other are meaningless. To be meaningful > at > > > all > > > >> such an ethics presupposes state or supra-state institutions, as > > > >> representatives of the generalized other, to mediate social action, > > > which > > > >> is an unwarranted restriction on the moral standpoint. Rather, the > > real > > > >> relations between any two individuals is given by the projects in > > which > > > >> they collaborate, whether that ?collaboration? entails cooperation > or > > > >> conflict over the object. Collaboration is a strong ethical norm, > but > > > >> encompasses a complex variety of nuances according to the mode of > > > >> collaboration. The complex ethics entailed in consultation, > > attribution, > > > >> privacy, sharing, ownership, division of labor, negotiation of > norms, > > > >> consistency, and so on, provide a real basis for the construction of > > an > > > >> ethics for the modern, secular world. > > > >> > > > >> One of the corollaries of Benhabib?s (2002) approach is that the > > > concept of > > > >> nation-state has to be disentangled into the several distinct > projects > > > >> which are conflated in the notion which has pertained since the > Treaty > > > of > > > >> Westphalia. This is a task which can only be resolved by a social > > theory > > > >> which takes projects and not abstract general categories as its > basic > > > >> units. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Relevant references to MacIntyre's "After Virtue" are on pp. 7-8 of > > > >>> "Collaborative Projects. An Interdisciplinary Study," which I know > > you > > > >>> > > > >> have > > > >> > > > >>> a copy of, Greg. He uses the expressions "internal reward" and > > > "external > > > >>> reward." > > > >>> > > > >>> Andy > > > >>> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>> *Andy Blunden* > > > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> And one more thing Andy (I realize given the hour down-under, you > > are > > > >>>> probably slumbering - hopefully not dogmatically...), could you > sell > > > us > > > >>>> > > > >> on > > > >> > > > >>>> why we should look at MacIntyre on extrinsic and intrinsic > > motivation. > > > >>>> Your suggestion that Cristina read MacIntyre on extrinsic and > > > intrinsic > > > >>>> motivation was less than convincing to me if only b.c. I know > > nothing > > > >>>> > > > >> about > > > >> > > > >>>> it! -greg > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Greg Thompson < > > > >>>> > > > >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > >> > > > >>>> > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Andy, > > > >>>> I'm a bit baffled by your response to Cristina. It seems fair > > > >>>> enough to try to recover Descartes as not necessarily a bad > guy. > > > >>>> But I didn't take that to be Cristina's point. > > > >>>> It seems to me that she was arguing against Cartesian dualism > - > > a > > > >>>> particular way in which we Westerners (and we aren't the only > > ones > > > >>>> who do this) divide up the world into various kinds binaries - > > > >>>> subject/object, mind/body, nature/culture, emotion/reason, and > > so > > > >>>> > > > >> on. > > > >> > > > >>>> Are you advocating that these should be the governing > categories > > > >>>> of the human sciences? > > > >>>> If so, then "real human language" will work just fine. > > > >>>> If not, then the "real human language" called English will > pose > > > >>>> some significant problems for imagining things other than they > > > are. > > > >>>> Confused. > > > >>>> -greg > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Andy Blunden < > ablunden@mira.net > > > >>>> > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Cristina, > > > >>>> There is far too much in your message to deal with on an > > email > > > >>>> list. What I usually do in such cases is simply pick a > bit I > > > >>>> think I can respond to and ignore the rest. OK? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I think *real human languages* - as opposed to made up > > > >>>> languages like Esperanto or the kind of mixture of > neologs, > > > >>>> hyphenated words and other gobbydegook fashionable in some > > > >>>> academic circles - can be underestimated. Sure, one must > use > > > >>>> specialised jargon sometimes, to communicate to a > > specialised > > > >>>> collaborator in a shared discipline, but generally that is > > > >>>> because the jargon has itself a long track record. Don't > try > > > >>>> and make up words and concepts, at least, take a year or > two > > > >>>> about it if you have to. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Secondly, Descartes was no fool. He was the person that > > first > > > >>>> treated consciousness as an object of science, and the > many > > of > > > >>>> those belonging to the dualist tradition he was part of > > wound > > > >>>> up being burnt at the stake for suggesting that the world > > was > > > >>>> not necessarily identical to how it seemed. So I'd say, > > better > > > >>>> to suffer association with Descartes than make up words > and > > > >>>> expressions. The Fascist campaign launched against him in > > the > > > >>>> 1930s was not meant to help us. He deserves respect. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> For example, my development is not the same the > development > > > >>>> some project makes. And no amount of playing with words > can > > > >>>> eliminate that without degenerating into nonsense. I must > > > >>>> correct something I said which was wrong in my earlier > post > > > >>>> though. I said that the relation between projects was the > > > >>>> crucial thing in personality development. Not completely > > true. > > > >>>> As Jean Lave has shown so well, the relation between a > > person > > > >>>> and a project they are committed to is equally important, > > > >>>> their role, so to speak. Take these two together. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Motives instead of motivation is good. More definite. But > I > > > >>>> don't agree at all that Leontyev resolves this problem. > For > > a > > > >>>> start his dichotomy between 'objective' motives, i.e., > those > > > >>>> endorsed by the hegemonic power in the given social > > formation, > > > >>>> and 'subjective', usually unacknowledged, motives, is in > my > > > >>>> view a product of the times he lived in, and not useful > for > > > >>>> us. The question is: how does the person form a *concept* > of > > > >>>> the object? It is the object-concept which is the crucial > > > >>>> thing in talking abut motives. Over and above the relation > > > >>>> between the worker's project of providing for his family > (or > > > >>>> whatever) and the employer's project of expanding the > > > >>>> proportion of the social labour subsumed under his/her > > > >>>> capital. The relation between these two projects doubtless > > > >>>> seems to the boss to be the difference between the > worker's > > > >>>> subjective, secret, self-interest, and his own "objective" > > > >>>> motive. But his point of view is not necessarily ours. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Have a read of Alasdair MacIntyre on extrinsic and > intrinsic > > > >>>> motives, too. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> That's more than enough. > > > >>>> Andy > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >>>> ------------ > > > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > > > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Greg and Andy, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thank you for your comments. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Greg, I absolutely agree with you about the > difficulties > > > >>>> of overcoming our > > > >>>> western language and thoughts, so influenced by the > > > >>>> Cartesian dualism. > > > >>>> Andy, I hope to be able to show a bit how I connect > > > >>>> activities in what > > > >>>> follow. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> About my attempts to overcome a dualistic language: I > > tend > > > >>>> to prefer to > > > >>>> talk about a) single development (as suggest by Cole > and > > > >>>> Wertsh) instead of > > > >>>> individual and activity (or context or project) > > > >>>> development; b) dimensions > > > >>>> of a phenomenon instead of levels of a phenomenon > > > >>>> (micro-meso-macro); c) > > > >>>> motives instead of motivation. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> However it happens that I need to swing between ?my? > new > > > >>>> language and the > > > >>>> ?standard? one, because I am living in a still > Cartesian > > > >>>> world and I need > > > >>>> to be understood by people (and even myself!) who are > > (am) > > > >>>> made of this > > > >>>> Cartesian world. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > >>>> Assistant Professor > > > >>>> Department of Anthropology > > > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > >>>> Brigham Young University > > > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > > > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> -- > > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > >> Assistant Professor > > > >> Department of Anthropology > > > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > >> Brigham Young University > > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. > > Senior Researcher > > > IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte > > Via Nizza, 18 > > 10125 Torino ? Italia > > Tel. +39 011 6666463 > > cell. 348 0454272 > > Fax. +39 011 6696012 > > e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it > > skype mariacristinamigliore > > IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it > > LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) > > > > *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita > nella tua regione.* > > *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html > * > > *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this > e-mail > > Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi > allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? > destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale > ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria > responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore > o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo > alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di > tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in > sicurezza. > > This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may > also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is > intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this > email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do > not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank > you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure > or error-free. > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Aug 7 18:22:37 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 18:22:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Very Sad News: Paula Towsey Message-ID: It is with tremendous sadness that I pass along this news. Paula Towsey died unexpectedly a short time ago. Condolences should be seny to her sister, Barbara Smith whose email address is below I was missing her voice even before this news. A personal and communal loss. mike bmsmith05@gmail.com From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 7 18:29:50 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 11:29:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> How is it then, Martin, that there is a women's movement? which even includes working class women? And how is it that there are dozens of different political currents in the workers' movement, even rival trade union federations? I do not agree with the dichotomy objective (=class, or state, or whatever) vs personal. Universal and individual are either mediated by the particular or they are meaningless. I do not agree that classes step on to the stage of history as ready made subjects with self-consciousness and a political program. For a loyal Stalinist of course all these matters are settled. Women like men are guided by the Party. There is only one party of the working class. Individuals must subordinate themselves to the state, the object of the activity of a firm is to meet the 5 Year plan. Why be surprised about what I think, Martin? What do *you* think? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Martin John Packer wrote: > I'm surprised to hear you say this, Andy. I would think that an argument could be made that the motive, the interest, of a class could be considered objective, in the sense that it confronts individuals as something independent of their personal motives. And even that the interest of one class in particular could be considered objective in the sense that it aligns with - or drives - a historical movement towards greater equity and lesser exploitation. > > Martin > > > On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal? >> > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Aug 7 18:34:34 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 11:34:34 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Very Sad News: Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53E4292A.7000508@mira.net> How unexpected and tragic! As far from death as one could imagine when I last saw Paula! How sad. A ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > It is with tremendous sadness that I pass along this news. > > Paula Towsey died unexpectedly a short time ago. Condolences should be seny > to her sister, > Barbara Smith whose email address is below > > I was missing her voice even before this news. A personal and communal loss. > > mike > > bmsmith05@gmail.com > > > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Aug 8 00:57:46 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 09:57:46 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Very Sad News: Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am shocked beyond words. She was my student through all that tremendous work on concepts. I will see whether I can find out more from Barbara. Carol On 8 August 2014 03:22, mike cole wrote: > It is with tremendous sadness that I pass along this news. > > Paula Towsey died unexpectedly a short time ago. Condolences should be seny > to her sister, > Barbara Smith whose email address is below > > I was missing her voice even before this news. A personal and communal > loss. > > mike > > bmsmith05@gmail.com > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Fri Aug 8 01:20:56 2014 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 08:20:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Very Sad News: Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5af69ee3036e4ea4b4c9e1e7601da620@PMB-MBX-1.local.ukzn.ac.za> This is indeed extremely sad news ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Carol Macdonald Sent: Friday, August 8, 2014 9:57 AM To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Very Sad News: Paula Towsey I am shocked beyond words. She was my student through all that tremendous work on concepts. I will see whether I can find out more from Barbara. Carol On 8 August 2014 03:22, mike cole wrote: > It is with tremendous sadness that I pass along this news. > > Paula Towsey died unexpectedly a short time ago. Condolences should be seny > to her sister, > Barbara Smith whose email address is below > > I was missing her voice even before this news. A personal and communal > loss. > > mike > > bmsmith05@gmail.com > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Fri Aug 8 03:16:43 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 12:16:43 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> Message-ID: Huw, my responses between the lines below: CRISTINA: > My interviews to the employers and managers begun by questions like "What > does this enterprise do? what are the goods produced? how work is > organized? assembly line or machine tools?" etc. > So I interpreted their answers as a description of the business in which > the enterprise is involved. That gave me information and data to classify > the enterprise by referring to the typology I had elaborated about the main > strategies of production. As I wrote in one of my previous emails, the > strategy of production is what I consider the object of activity of the > firm. > > HUW: Your attributing an object of activity to a company (?) seems a bit awkward to me in terms of locution. A strategy is a plan -- a sets of goals etc -- but it is the (ongoing) stable relation that the plan is designed to achieve that would consititute something like the object of activity (do you agree?) i.e. a specific form of production with the character demarcated by the manifest plan (the real strategy, which might be different from the claimed strategy). CRISTINA: yes, I could have used the locution "form of production". I have preferred the term "strategy of production" to give the idea that companies are always in a process of denifition of their object because they have to respond to a globalized competition. Mass production can be seen as a form of production, but if I use this locution, I give the idea that this form is stable. The workers have to deal with the strategy and not the form of production. They have to make sense of the strategy has it emerges day by day through the assigned work and tasks. HUW: With respect to (personal) activities mediating between the individual(s) and the demands, I would locate the individual's objective imagination as centrally applied to both. The acitivity of the individual is maintained (held steady) through their objective imagination, which is used to negotiate (and is partially derived from) the demands of the situation (demands of mass production, lack of sleep etc). CRISTINA: I absolutly agree. This is what emerges from the interviews. The older workers have an image of the object, and their actions and operations are influenced by this imagination. HUW:Hence a hierarchy of motives might resolve to a hierarchy of relations of psychological functions, yielding objective imagination (Vygotsky again), depending on your meaning of hierarchy of motives... CRISTINA: I am not sure I agree with you. Maybe we give different meanings to the hierarchy of motives? indeed when I refer to the latter, I have in mind "hierarchy of personal sense of motives". I have found useful this concept because it leads to look at a) what is the personal sense of working in that enterprise for each older worker? does the motive/object of the company have a sense for the older worker? and b) can the older worker have contact with the motive/object? The second question has led me to discuss the taylorist managerial principle of separation between conception and execution and develop the hypothesis that the more work is organized according to this principle, the less the older workers can be aware of the object of the activity, and make sense of it. Difficult to summurize the findings of my empirical work here: I can say that older workers make sense of their work according to the image of the object they manage to develop. And there are some interesting differences between the two case studies. CRISTINA> My interviews to the older workers started by asking to tell me when they > begun to work, as a way to prompt a narrative of their life. > The personal sense of motive - that is the subjective way to relate to the > motive and oject of the activity of the firm - has emerged through the > emotions, feelings, thoughts which the older workers were expressing while > they were talking about their tasks. > HUW: Yes, although if it is a "classically western" structure (strategy of production), then the needs of the workers will not actually figure within it (much)! The fact that you did research (for them) suggests that they are a bit more "advanced" than classically western, i.e. that they are groping for relations between strategy of production and the needs of the workers to foster effective learning. Out of interest, did the organisation have some initial stimulus for the interest, e.g. problems in effective learning? CRISTINA: I chose the two enterprises to analyzed as case studies because I found them interesting for my research. I asked the owner and the ceo the permission to interviews some older workers. The owner and the Ceo did not ask me to do the research for them. They did not show interest in the findings of my research. 2014-08-08 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > How is it then, Martin, that there is a women's movement? which even > includes working class women? > And how is it that there are dozens of different political currents in the > workers' movement, even rival trade union federations? > I do not agree with the dichotomy objective (=class, or state, or > whatever) vs personal. Universal and individual are either mediated by the > particular or they are meaningless. > I do not agree that classes step on to the stage of history as ready made > subjects with self-consciousness and a political program. > For a loyal Stalinist of course all these matters are settled. Women like > men are guided by the Party. There is only one party of the working class. > Individuals must subordinate themselves to the state, the object of the > activity of a firm is to meet the 5 Year plan. > Why be surprised about what I think, Martin? What do *you* think? > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Martin John Packer wrote: > >> I'm surprised to hear you say this, Andy. I would think that an argument >> could be made that the motive, the interest, of a class could be considered >> objective, in the sense that it confronts individuals as something >> independent of their personal motives. And even that the interest of one >> class in particular could be considered objective in the sense that it >> aligns with - or drives - a historical movement towards greater equity and >> lesser exploitation. >> >> Martin >> >> >> On Aug 6, 2014, at 10:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >> >>> What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is >>> there which is not personal? >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Aug 8 04:41:06 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 12:41:06 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> Message-ID: > > HUW:Hence a hierarchy of motives might resolve to a hierarchy of relations > of > psychological functions, yielding objective imagination (Vygotsky again), > depending on your meaning of hierarchy of motives... > > CRISTINA: I am not sure I agree with you. Maybe we give different meanings > to the hierarchy of motives? indeed when I refer to the latter, I have in > mind "hierarchy of personal sense of motives". I have found useful this > concept because it leads to look at a) what is the personal sense of > working in that enterprise for each older worker? does the motive/object of > the company have a sense for the older worker? and b) can the older worker > have contact with the motive/object? > The second question has led me to discuss the taylorist managerial > principle of separation between conception and execution and develop the > hypothesis that the more work is organized according to this principle, the > less the older workers can be aware of the object of the activity, and make > sense of it. Difficult to summurize the findings of my empirical work here: > I can say that older workers make sense of their work according to the > image of the object they manage to develop. And there are some interesting > differences between the two case studies. > Ok. Whether workers have access to the problem setting in which the strategy of production is construed, and thereby align their motives to it. That's quite close to what I'm studying in instruction settings. Thanks for explaining your project, Cristina. Best, Huw From anamshane@gmail.com Fri Aug 8 05:14:55 2014 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 08:14:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Very Sad News: Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: <5af69ee3036e4ea4b4c9e1e7601da620@PMB-MBX-1.local.ukzn.ac.za> References: <5af69ee3036e4ea4b4c9e1e7601da620@PMB-MBX-1.local.ukzn.ac.za> Message-ID: I am also shocked to hear about Paula! She was a radiant person full of ideas and joy! Ana ____________________ Ana Marjanovic-Shane Sent from my iPad > On Aug 8, 2014, at 4:20 AM, Mary van der Riet wrote: > > This is indeed extremely sad news > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Carol Macdonald > Sent: Friday, August 8, 2014 9:57 AM > To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Very Sad News: Paula Towsey > > I am shocked beyond words. She was my student through all that tremendous > work on concepts. I will see whether I can find out more from Barbara. > > Carol > > >> On 8 August 2014 03:22, mike cole wrote: >> >> It is with tremendous sadness that I pass along this news. >> >> Paula Towsey died unexpectedly a short time ago. Condolences should be seny >> to her sister, >> Barbara Smith whose email address is below >> >> I was missing her voice even before this news. A personal and communal >> loss. >> >> mike >> >> bmsmith05@gmail.com >> > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > From migliore@ires.piemonte.it Fri Aug 8 05:31:16 2014 From: migliore@ires.piemonte.it (Maria Cristina Migliore) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 14:31:16 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> Message-ID: Huw, may I know more about your study? what is the purpose of your project? Cristina 2014-08-08 13:41 GMT+02:00 Huw Lloyd : > > > > HUW:Hence a hierarchy of motives might resolve to a hierarchy of > relations > > of > > psychological functions, yielding objective imagination (Vygotsky again), > > depending on your meaning of hierarchy of motives... > > > > CRISTINA: I am not sure I agree with you. Maybe we give different > meanings > > to the hierarchy of motives? indeed when I refer to the latter, I have in > > mind "hierarchy of personal sense of motives". I have found useful this > > concept because it leads to look at a) what is the personal sense of > > working in that enterprise for each older worker? does the motive/object > of > > the company have a sense for the older worker? and b) can the older > worker > > have contact with the motive/object? > > The second question has led me to discuss the taylorist managerial > > principle of separation between conception and execution and develop the > > hypothesis that the more work is organized according to this principle, > the > > less the older workers can be aware of the object of the activity, and > make > > sense of it. Difficult to summurize the findings of my empirical work > here: > > I can say that older workers make sense of their work according to the > > image of the object they manage to develop. And there are some > interesting > > differences between the two case studies. > > > > Ok. Whether workers have access to the problem setting in which the > strategy of production is construed, and thereby align their motives to it. > That's quite close to what I'm studying in instruction settings. > > Thanks for explaining your project, Cristina. > > Best, > Huw > -- Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. Senior Researcher IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte Via Nizza, 18 10125 Torino ? Italia Tel. +39 011 6666463 cell. 348 0454272 Fax. +39 011 6696012 e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it skype mariacristinamigliore IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita nella tua regione.* *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html * *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in sicurezza. This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Aug 8 07:16:14 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 15:16:14 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> Message-ID: Maria, Yes, I hypothesise that what we learn is determined by how we learn (in mathematical contexts). The project investigates aspects of this relation. I take an interest in (the limitations of) generalisation of mathematical notation, as opposed to generalisations of mathematical construal stemming (in origin) from meanings embodied in culturally appropriate tasks. I am looking at the relation between activity and memory and the formation of mathematical concepts (fractions), and take an interest in how such concepts may be used creatively depending upon the manner in which they have been acquired. Best, Huw On 8 August 2014 13:31, Maria Cristina Migliore wrote: > Huw, > > may I know more about your study? what is the purpose of your project? > > Cristina > > > 2014-08-08 13:41 GMT+02:00 Huw Lloyd : > > > > > > > HUW:Hence a hierarchy of motives might resolve to a hierarchy of > > relations > > > of > > > psychological functions, yielding objective imagination (Vygotsky > again), > > > depending on your meaning of hierarchy of motives... > > > > > > CRISTINA: I am not sure I agree with you. Maybe we give different > > meanings > > > to the hierarchy of motives? indeed when I refer to the latter, I have > in > > > mind "hierarchy of personal sense of motives". I have found useful this > > > concept because it leads to look at a) what is the personal sense of > > > working in that enterprise for each older worker? does the > motive/object > > of > > > the company have a sense for the older worker? and b) can the older > > worker > > > have contact with the motive/object? > > > The second question has led me to discuss the taylorist managerial > > > principle of separation between conception and execution and develop > the > > > hypothesis that the more work is organized according to this principle, > > the > > > less the older workers can be aware of the object of the activity, and > > make > > > sense of it. Difficult to summurize the findings of my empirical work > > here: > > > I can say that older workers make sense of their work according to the > > > image of the object they manage to develop. And there are some > > interesting > > > differences between the two case studies. > > > > > > > Ok. Whether workers have access to the problem setting in which the > > strategy of production is construed, and thereby align their motives to > it. > > That's quite close to what I'm studying in instruction settings. > > > > Thanks for explaining your project, Cristina. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > -- > > Maria Cristina Migliore, Ph.D. > > Senior Researcher > > > IRES Istituto Ricerche Economico Sociali del Piemonte > > Via Nizza, 18 > > 10125 Torino ? Italia > > Tel. +39 011 6666463 > > cell. 348 0454272 > > Fax. +39 011 6696012 > > e-mail migliore@ires.piemonte.it > > skype mariacristinamigliore > > IRES web www.ires.piemonte.it > > LinkedIn Maria Cristina Migliore > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it (Italiano) > > personal web www.mariacristinamigliore.it/index_e.htm (English) > > > > *Con il tuo 5 per mille all?IRES Piemonte contribuisci a migliorare la vita > nella tua regione.* > > *Info: www.ires.piemonte.it/5xmille.html > * > > *P* Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this > e-mail > > Nota di riservatezza: Il presente messaggio, corredato dei relativi > allegati, contiene informazioni da considerarsi strettamente riservate ed ? > destinato esclusivamente alla persona destinataria sopra indicata, la quale > ? l'unica autorizzata ad usarlo, copiarlo e, sotto la propria > responsabilit?, diffonderlo. Chiunque ricevesse questo messaggio per errore > o comunque lo leggesse senza esserne legittimata ? pregata di rinviarlo > alla mittente distruggendone l'originale. Grazie. Si prega inoltre di > tenere conto che la trasmissione non pu? essere garantita senza errori e in > sicurezza. > > This message and any files or documents attached are confidential and may > also be legally privileged or protected by other legal rules. It is > intended only for the individual or entity named. If you have received this > email in error, please inform the sender, delete it from your system and do > not copy or disclose it or its contents or use it for any purpose. Thank > you. Please also note that transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure > or error-free. > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Aug 8 17:42:27 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 00:42:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> Message-ID: But that would be a problem, Andy, only if there could be only one objective motive. No, multiple objective motives, none of them simply the sum of personal motives. Martin On Aug 7, 2014, at 8:29 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > How is it then, Martin, that there is a women's movement? which even includes working class women? > And how is it that there are dozens of different political currents in the workers' movement, even rival trade union federations? From ablunden@mira.net Fri Aug 8 18:01:32 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2014 11:01:32 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> Message-ID: <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> OK! I admit that is a solution that I didn't see coming. :) I gather from your formulation that an objective motive is not the motive of a person (otherwise, how could you contrast it with 'personal motive'). So that is my first question: who/what's motive is it, if not that of person(s)? Secondly, I agree that *every* motive is objective; but equally every motive is subjective. But the point is that Leontyev contrasts "objective" with "subjective" motives. I have no problem with the statement that every motive is objective in that (1) the aim is that a desired state of affairs exists in the material world, not as a state of mind, and (2) the desire is in the mind, but arises from the life-situation of the person in the material world, their material needs and so on; motives begin and end in the material world, but pass through consciousness. But the whole idea of "motive" is that it is active in consciousness. So it seems the idea of multiple objective motives can only be a truism. It cannot help Leontyev, because for Leontyev there is only one objective motive. I think you and I would be together in disagreeing with ANL here. But we would all agree that all "personal motives" are also objective in the sense (1). Thirdly, let me take a guess that you mean that an "objective motive" is the motive of the activity. It is only a guess, but you say: "multiple objective motives, none of them simply the sum of personal motives." Could you explain what exactly you would mean by the "motive" of an activity, if this is the case, and in what sense the "motive of an activity" can have multiple instantiations. Do you mean "kill two birds with one stone" so to speak? If that is what you mean, I agree, but that is only a trivial distinction. Do you mean that diverse social interests (not individual interests) are at play in an activity, and potentially all may be realised simultaneously? If so, I agree, but ANL would not. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Martin John Packer wrote: > But that would be a problem, Andy, only if there could be only one objective motive. No, multiple objective motives, none of them simply the sum of personal motives. > > Martin > > On Aug 7, 2014, at 8:29 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >> How is it then, Martin, that there is a women's movement? which even includes working class women? >> And how is it that there are dozens of different political currents in the workers' movement, even rival trade union federations? >> > > > > > From acortese@me.com Fri Aug 8 18:50:22 2014 From: acortese@me.com (ANTONELLA CORTESE) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 19:50:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] please unsubscribe me In-Reply-To: <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> Message-ID: <385DF6AB-0915-4860-AE62-E34D8A24BA18@me.com> hi there, please unsubscribe me from the discussion group. thank you, ac From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Aug 8 19:43:28 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 19:43:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: please unsubscribe me In-Reply-To: <385DF6AB-0915-4860-AE62-E34D8A24BA18@me.com> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> <385DF6AB-0915-4860-AE62-E34D8A24BA18@me.com> Message-ID: Hi Antonella-- Anyone who wants to unsubscribe from MCA can do so by writing to bjones@ucsd.edu (status quo anti) mike On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, ANTONELLA CORTESE wrote: > > hi there, > > please unsubscribe me from the discussion group. > > thank you, > ac > From acortese@me.com Fri Aug 8 19:51:43 2014 From: acortese@me.com (ANTONELLA CORTESE) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:51:43 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: please unsubscribe me In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> <385DF6AB-0915-4860-AE62-E34D8A24BA18@me.com> Message-ID: Thanks Mike...sorry for the bother. Best, AC On Aug 8, 2014, at 8:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Antonella-- > > Anyone who wants to unsubscribe from MCA can do so by writing to > bjones@ucsd.edu > > (status quo anti) > mike > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, ANTONELLA CORTESE wrote: > >> >> hi there, >> >> please unsubscribe me from the discussion group. >> >> thank you, >> ac >> From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sat Aug 9 10:14:35 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 19:14:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Paula Towsey Message-ID: Fellow XMCA-ers Sorry I have been away today, and didn't update people on the latest information about Paula. Here is a message from her sister: Paula was alone at home on sunday night when she apparently fell and hit her head and by the time help came on monday morning - it was too late unbelievable tragedy Her funeral is planned for tuesday 12 at 11:30 in the Bryanston Catholic Church please light a candle for her I will read a tribute from XMCA for Paula at her funeral, and will tell you about the flowers from you guys. I haven't spoken to her husband John yet, so don't yet know what the post-mortem showed about the exact cause of her death. I will write and tell you about the service later on Tuesday. Carol -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sat Aug 9 10:14:35 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 19:14:35 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Paula Towsey Message-ID: Fellow XMCA-ers Sorry I have been away today, and didn't update people on the latest information about Paula. Here is a message from her sister: Paula was alone at home on sunday night when she apparently fell and hit her head and by the time help came on monday morning - it was too late unbelievable tragedy Her funeral is planned for tuesday 12 at 11:30 in the Bryanston Catholic Church please light a candle for her I will read a tribute from XMCA for Paula at her funeral, and will tell you about the flowers from you guys. I haven't spoken to her husband John yet, so don't yet know what the post-mortem showed about the exact cause of her death. I will write and tell you about the service later on Tuesday. Carol -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sat Aug 9 11:57:46 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:57:46 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> Message-ID: Martin, Andy, I hope Martin's answer [which came as a surprise as saying there are multiple *objective motives* and these multiple motives are not the specific motives of a person opens this conversation towards the TYPES of *relations* existing between the contrasting *objective motives* Do each of these *objective motives* have an *inheritance*?? and possibly we can understand the *mind* as the triadic *third* that interweaves these multiple *objective motives*? . This seems to have some *resemblance* to the notion of *modes* of consciousness [or *ways* of life*] It also opens up the notion of *gestures* as SHOWING [ *MOTIVES* *MODES* *WAYS*] through indicating how to proceed as orienting and paying *attention* to the *subject matter* at hand. SHIFTING TO a Deweyian language. The theme of *denotating empiricism* [as showing to say] or Merleau-Ponty's notion of language AS gestures. I am attempting to *translate* the notion of *objective motive* through notions of simultaneously existing human *worlds* that co-exist and when gestured towards need continual translation of the *showings through *sayings* [not showing only through the said] For example when Martin *showed* [denotated* an expanded notion of *objective motive** BEYOND the pre-existing single monism of *objective motive* This adds the temporal/historical *dimension* [a topological metaphor of time] to the exploration of *objective motive* as a *concept* Do we SEE *objective motives* when we POINT in their/there direction?? This is the question of the relation OF *precept* AND *concept* being *mediated THROUGH A THIRD? Is this relation between perception and conception a *to-and-fro movement* ?? Is this relation symmetrical or asymmetrical?? [does perception or conception take priority?] Does this priority CHANGE THROUGH TIME as the mediating third is also historically constituted?? To return to *objective motive* AS *objective motiveS* does EACH particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective. I am left curious to hear more of this conversation on the notion of *objective motive* as a TERM Larry On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > OK! I admit that is a solution that I didn't see coming. :) > > I gather from your formulation that an objective motive is not the motive > of a person (otherwise, how could you contrast it with 'personal motive'). > So that is my first question: who/what's motive is it, if not that of > person(s)? > > Secondly, I agree that *every* motive is objective; but equally every > motive is subjective. But the point is that Leontyev contrasts "objective" > with "subjective" motives. I have no problem with the statement that every > motive is objective in that (1) the aim is that a desired state of affairs > exists in the material world, not as a state of mind, and (2) the desire is > in the mind, but arises from the life-situation of the person in the > material world, their material needs and so on; motives begin and end in > the material world, but pass through consciousness. But the whole idea of > "motive" is that it is active in consciousness. So it seems the idea of > multiple objective motives can only be a truism. It cannot help Leontyev, > because for Leontyev there is only one objective motive. I think you and I > would be together in disagreeing with ANL here. But we would all agree that > all "personal motives" are also objective in the sense (1). > > Thirdly, let me take a guess that you mean that an "objective motive" is > the motive of the activity. It is only a guess, but you say: "multiple > objective motives, none of them simply the sum of personal motives." Could > you explain what exactly you would mean by the "motive" of an activity, if > this is the case, and in what sense the "motive of an activity" can have > multiple instantiations. Do you mean "kill two birds with one stone" so to > speak? If that is what you mean, I agree, but that is only a trivial > distinction. Do you mean that diverse social interests (not individual > interests) are at play in an activity, and potentially all may be realised > simultaneously? If so, I agree, but ANL would not. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Martin John Packer wrote: > >> But that would be a problem, Andy, only if there could be only one >> objective motive. No, multiple objective motives, none of them simply the >> sum of personal motives. >> Martin >> >> On Aug 7, 2014, at 8:29 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >> >>> How is it then, Martin, that there is a women's movement? which even >>> includes working class women? >>> And how is it that there are dozens of different political currents in >>> the workers' movement, even rival trade union federations? >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Aug 9 17:36:56 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 00:36:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> Message-ID: Larry, I didn't have this in mind when I responded to Andy's assertion that every motive is personal. But your question "does EACH particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective" brings to mind Bruno Latour's latest book, A Inquiry into Modes of Existence. The LCHC group recently studied this book with some care, I believe, so they can say more than I can. But Latour aims to go beyond his previous studies of the ways that social realities are assembled, always a network or web, by exploring what circulates in different kinds of assemblage. What each network delivers - different in each case - he calls "value." In Latour's analysis, each kind of social institution - the law, the church, science, politics, technology, - 15 in all - has its own mode of existence and its own mode of value. These values define, I think we can say without distortion, the interests that people have in each domain; in economy, for example, their "passionate interests." Latour does a pretty good job of exploring, describing, and explaining how the modes of our modern social world, and their intersections, define the values we take to be self-evident, and the ways that we are concerned and interested within these modes. Perhaps Andy will say that this is what he meant when he wrote that "*every* motive is objective; but equally every motive is subjective." But then he also wrote "What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?" Martin On Aug 9, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > To return to *objective motive* AS *objective motiveS* does EACH > particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular > *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective. From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 9 18:01:04 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 18:01:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: please unsubscribe me In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> <385DF6AB-0915-4860-AE62-E34D8A24BA18@me.com> Message-ID: No bother, Antonella. A learning moment for all. The unsubscribe link at XMCA has been problematic. Writing to bjones at ucsd dot edu has been reliable for a long time now. Warmest regards, mike On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 7:51 PM, ANTONELLA CORTESE wrote: > Thanks Mike...sorry for the bother. > > Best, > AC > On Aug 8, 2014, at 8:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Antonella-- > > > > Anyone who wants to unsubscribe from MCA can do so by writing to > > bjones@ucsd.edu > > > > (status quo anti) > > mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, ANTONELLA CORTESE > wrote: > > > >> > >> hi there, > >> > >> please unsubscribe me from the discussion group. > >> > >> thank you, > >> ac > >> > > From peg.griffin@att.net Sun Aug 10 07:39:31 2014 From: peg.griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 07:39:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9025498@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mira.net> Message-ID: <1407681571.38936.YahooMailNeo@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Here's a class of replies to the Latour question Martin Packer referred to , "But then he also wrote 'What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?'":? The motives in "well-motivated arguments" starting way back in classical logic.? (Wouldn't you say these "belong" to a community or a project not a person?) PG On Saturday, August 9, 2014 8:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: Larry, I didn't have this in mind when I responded to Andy's assertion that every motive is personal. But your question "does EACH particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective" brings to mind Bruno Latour's latest book, A Inquiry into Modes of Existence. The LCHC group recently studied this book with some care, I believe, so they can say more than I can. But Latour aims to go beyond his previous studies of the ways that social realities are assembled, always a network or web, by exploring what circulates in different kinds of assemblage. What each network delivers - different in each case - he calls "value." In Latour's analysis, each kind of social institution - the law, the church, science, politics, technology, - 15 in all - has its own mode of existence and its own mode of value. These values define, I think we can say without distortion, the interests that people have in each domain; in economy, for example, their "passionate interests." Latour does a pretty good job of exploring, describing, and explaining how the modes of our modern social world, and their intersections, define the values we take to be self-evident, and the ways that we are concerned and interested within these modes. Perhaps Andy will say that this is what he meant when he wrote that "*every* motive is objective; but equally every motive is subjective." But then he also wrote "What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?" Martin On Aug 9, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > To return to *objective motive* AS? *objective motiveS*? does EACH > particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular > *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective. From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 10 07:45:32 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 00:45:32 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <1407681571.38936.YahooMailNeo@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mi ra.net> <1407681571.38936.YahooMailNeo@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53E7858C.7010805@mira.net> Of course I love your very hegelian take on this question of motivation, Peg. Yes, this does reflect the objectivity of motivation. But it remains the case, doesn't it, Peg, that to be a well-motivated argument, someone still has to be motivated by it, and make the argument, or act in a way which manifests well motivated actions, be they speech acts or not. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > Here's a class of replies to the Latour question Martin Packer referred to , "But then he also wrote 'What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?'": > > The motives in "well-motivated arguments" starting way back in classical logic. > > (Wouldn't you say these "belong" to a community or a project not a person?) > > PG > > > > On Saturday, August 9, 2014 8:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > > > > Larry, > > I didn't have this in mind when I responded to Andy's assertion that every motive is personal. But your question "does EACH particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective" brings to mind Bruno Latour's latest book, A Inquiry into Modes of Existence. The LCHC group recently studied this book with some care, I believe, so they can say more than I can. But Latour aims to go beyond his previous studies of the ways that social realities are assembled, always a network or web, by exploring what circulates in different kinds of assemblage. What each network delivers - different in each case - he calls "value." > > In Latour's analysis, each kind of social institution - the law, the church, science, politics, technology, - 15 in all - has its own mode of existence and its own mode of value. These values define, I think we can say without distortion, the interests that people have in each domain; in economy, for example, their "passionate interests." > > Latour does a pretty good job of exploring, describing, and explaining how the modes of our modern social world, and their intersections, define the values we take to be self-evident, and the ways that we are concerned and interested within these modes. Perhaps Andy will say that this is what he meant when he wrote that "*every* motive is objective; but equally every motive is subjective." But then he also wrote "What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?" > > Martin > > On Aug 9, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > > >> To return to *objective motive* AS *objective motiveS* does EACH >> particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular >> *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective. >> > > > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Aug 8 22:49:44 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 07:49:44 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paula In-Reply-To: <66352379.23518.1407560939719.JavaMail.rim@b13.c6.bise7.blackberry> References: <53E57FA4.9090501@mira.net> <53E58F0D.3080004@mira.net> <2137560805-1407560118-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-copy_sent_folder-1936066156-@b26.c6.bise7.blackberry> <66352379.23518.1407560939719.JavaMail.rim@b13.c6.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: Guys Her husband's name is John. Netflorist is the best was to order flowers on the Internet. I think spring flowers would be good. I could also read her tribute for you. Would that do? Best Carol On 9 August 2014 07:09, Mary van der Riet wrote: > Mike, is David her partner, and can you give me any contact details? > Mary > Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device > ------------------------------ > *From: *vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > *Date: *Sat, 9 Aug 2014 04:55:15 +0000 > *To: *; > *ReplyTo: *vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za > *Cc: *Carol Macdonald > *Subject: *Re: Paula > > Can I suggest that a virtual card with messages from xmca members might > be better than flowers? (Forex, bank transfersd). If we could set that up > with a link to xmca, and ask people to contribute, to close monday 8pm GMT > then perhaps it could be read at the funeral > If flowers are preferred I am happy to cover them and send flowers here > from SA > Mary > Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device > ------------------------------ > *From: *Andy Blunden > *Date: *Sat, 9 Aug 2014 13:01:33 +1000 > *To: * > *ReplyTo: * > *Cc: *Carol Macdonald; Mary van der Riet< > vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za> > *Subject: *Re: Paula > > The Bryanston Catholic Church > Corner William Nicol & Sloane Streets > Bryanston > 2010 > South Africa > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > > PS- Can someone figure out where the church is so we can send flowers? > > mike > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 7:56 PM, mike cole > > wrote: > > > > All-- > > > > Events have moved faster than I have been able to communicate and > > tomorrow I am on the road all day. In brief, Barbara contact > > David, with whom I have been in contact. He has quickly drafted a > > memorial piece that he has sent to Barbara for approval. Looks > > good to me. > > > > I believe a discussion about how to go beyond this to honor > > Paula's work and memory is in order. Both David and I have ideas > > about that but it should be a community issue. I will move this > > along as best I can as soon as I get off the road. > > > > mike > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 6:55 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > I think we could arrange something with > > http://www.bryanstoncatholic.co.za/index.php?pg=11 > > Perhaps send a message to be read, and ask if they could add > > some flowers, and give us a bank account we could pay into? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > > Can we order flowers in the name of XMCA or...? > > I can put $100 toward something appropriate. It would be > > good if you could post this info on XMCA. > > > > Thanks Carol > > Mike > > > > On Friday, August 8, 2014, Carol Macdonald > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > Hello Guys > > > > Here is the message from her sister: > > > > Paula was alone at home on sunday night when she > > apparently fell > > and hit her head and by the time help came on monday > > morning - it > > was too late > > unbelievable tragedy > > Her funeral is planned for tuesday 12 at 11:30 in the > > Bryanston > > Catholic Church > > please light a candle for her > > Carol > > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary > > Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Fri Aug 8 23:07:04 2014 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 06:07:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paula In-Reply-To: References: <53E57FA4.9090501@mira.net> <53E58F0D.3080004@mira.net> <2137560805-1407560118-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-copy_sent_folder-1936066156-@b26.c6.bise7.blackberry> <66352379.23518.1407560939719.JavaMail.rim@b13.c6.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: <1170375889.23536.1407564418299.JavaMail.rim@b13.c6.bise7.blackberry> Hi Carol. Do you think flowers to church or home are better? Mary Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device ________________________________ From: Carol Macdonald Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 07:49:44 +0200 To: Mary van der Riet; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole; Andy Blunden Subject: Re: Paula Guys Her husband's name is John. Netflorist is the best was to order flowers on the Internet. I think spring flowers would be good. I could also read her tribute for you. Would that do? Best Carol On 9 August 2014 07:09, Mary van der Riet > wrote: Mike, is David her partner, and can you give me any contact details? Mary Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device ________________________________ From: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 04:55:15 +0000 To: >; > ReplyTo: vanderriet@ukzn.ac.za Cc: Carol Macdonald> Subject: Re: Paula Can I suggest that a virtual card with messages from xmca members might be better than flowers? (Forex, bank transfersd). If we could set that up with a link to xmca, and ask people to contribute, to close monday 8pm GMT then perhaps it could be read at the funeral If flowers are preferred I am happy to cover them and send flowers here from SA Mary Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device ________________________________ From: Andy Blunden > Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 13:01:33 +1000 To: > ReplyTo: > Cc: Carol Macdonald>; Mary van der Riet> Subject: Re: Paula The Bryanston Catholic Church Corner William Nicol & Sloane Streets Bryanston 2010 South Africa Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > PS- Can someone figure out where the church is so we can send flowers? > mike > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 7:56 PM, mike cole > >> wrote: > > All-- > > Events have moved faster than I have been able to communicate and > tomorrow I am on the road all day. In brief, Barbara contact > David, with whom I have been in contact. He has quickly drafted a > memorial piece that he has sent to Barbara for approval. Looks > good to me. > > I believe a discussion about how to go beyond this to honor > Paula's work and memory is in order. Both David and I have ideas > about that but it should be a community issue. I will move this > along as best I can as soon as I get off the road. > > mike > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 6:55 PM, Andy Blunden > >> wrote: > > I think we could arrange something with > http://www.bryanstoncatholic.co.za/index.php?pg=11 > Perhaps send a message to be read, and ask if they could add > some flowers, and give us a bank account we could pay into? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > > Can we order flowers in the name of XMCA or...? > I can put $100 toward something appropriate. It would be > good if you could post this info on XMCA. > > Thanks Carol > Mike > > On Friday, August 8, 2014, Carol Macdonald > > > > >>> wrote: > > Hello Guys > > Here is the message from her sister: > > Paula was alone at home on sunday night when she > apparently fell > and hit her head and by the time help came on monday > morning - it > was too late > unbelievable tragedy > Her funeral is planned for tuesday 12 at 11:30 in the > Bryanston > Catholic Church > please light a candle for her > Carol > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary > Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From peg.griffin@att.net Sun Aug 10 11:57:11 2014 From: peg.griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 11:57:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation? In-Reply-To: <53E7858C.7010805@mira.net> References: <53E0F32D.5020204@mira.net> <53E17CD1.2080700@mira.net> <60ba2a3dc15442788114f3bd6dec035d@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <85B4E3A8-77FE-403B-8F0A-44B7F11B5B64@umich.edu> <53E2475E.9050407@mira.net> <55BB8B6C-209C-40BE-BF8C-B2451F91B139@uniandes.edu.co> <53E4280E.6070900@mira.net> <53E572EC.7000603@mi ra.net> <1407681571.38936.YahooMailNeo@web180901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53E7858C.7010805@mira.net> Message-ID: <1407697031.6704.YahooMailNeo@web180904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Maybe yes, someone.? BUT in-so-far-as/if/when a someone is constructing/within/under-the-control-of the community or project.? And not so much as an all-purpose person someone. I'm thinking of a lot of different kinds of variability that attaches to things like "well-motivated argument" type problems (and other types from other traditions). Luria's (I think) work in Uzbekistan especially about the bears, D'Andrade's work with the Sears' cashier problems, some of Scribner's work and Cole's work (even beyond the wise and not so wise Kpelle, is it?), and, I think Warren Simmons' work on the sort of hide-and-seek proficiency that depended on whether the thinking is observed occurring inside or outside the respondent's area of specialization. I'm thinking this inquiry knowing how much it and we miss the chance of Paula Towsey chiming in and digging deep. PG On Sunday, August 10, 2014 10:45 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: Of course I love your very hegelian take on this question of motivation, Peg. Yes, this does reflect the objectivity of motivation. But it remains the case, doesn't it, Peg, that to be a well-motivated argument, someone still has to be motivated by it, and make the argument, or act in a way which manifests well motivated actions, be they speech acts or not. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > Here's a class of replies to the Latour question Martin Packer referred to , "But then he also wrote 'What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?'":? > > The motives in "well-motivated arguments" starting way back in classical logic.? > > (Wouldn't you say these "belong" to a community or a project not a person?) > > PG > > > > On Saturday, August 9, 2014 8:38 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: >? > > > Larry, > > I didn't have this in mind when I responded to Andy's assertion that every motive is personal. But your question "does EACH particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective" brings to mind Bruno Latour's latest book, A Inquiry into Modes of Existence. The LCHC group recently studied this book with some care, I believe, so they can say more than I can. But Latour aims to go beyond his previous studies of the ways that social realities are assembled, always a network or web, by exploring what circulates in different kinds of assemblage. What each network delivers - different in each case - he calls "value." > > In Latour's analysis, each kind of social institution - the law, the church, science, politics, technology, - 15 in all - has its own mode of existence and its own mode of value. These values define, I think we can say without distortion, the interests that people have in each domain; in economy, for example, their "passionate interests." > > Latour does a pretty good job of exploring, describing, and explaining how the modes of our modern social world, and their intersections, define the values we take to be self-evident, and the ways that we are concerned and interested within these modes. Perhaps Andy will say that this is what he meant when he wrote that "*every* motive is objective; but equally every motive is subjective." But then he also wrote "What is an objective motive? Or to put it another way, what motive is there which is not personal?" > > Martin > > On Aug 9, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > > >? >> To return to *objective motive* AS? *objective motiveS*? does EACH >> particular *objective motive* carry or call forth a particular >> *value/virtue* that is not merely subjective. >>? ? > > >? From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 16:38:00 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 00:38:00 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <0ABD8052-EF53-493B-8A8C-E6EC00F0C5FB@gmail.com> <2E240906-B450-4804-93CC-484C6E8F98CA@gmail.com> <2f5893996d844649b529f184da975881@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <9910C22A-B9A0-49D9-B3EC-9E51D96CA372@gmail.com> <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > Martin, > Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could say a > bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? The > others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more > complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different about the > crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. > -greg > > Greg See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's Psyche in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. 361-362) https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf Best, Huw > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > wrote: > > > Though in other texts he wrote of adolescence as such a time of crisis > > that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In the lectures > on > > child development Vygotsky describes the following crises: > > > > Birth: the child is differentiated physically > > 1 year: the child is differentiated biologically > > 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically > > 6 years: inside & outside of self are differentiated > > 12 years: actual & possible selves are differentiated > > > > Martin > > > > On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > > > Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > > > are associated with childhood before school. (It is an unfinished > work). > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > > >> ... > > >> > > >> In any case, I wonder if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself > > might > > >> be responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent alienation > > from > > >> schooling at these moments. > > >> > > >> Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Aug 10 16:52:40 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 23:52:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <0ABD8052-EF53-493B-8A8C-E6EC00F0C5FB@gmail.com> <2E240906-B450-4804-93CC-484C6E8F98CA@gmail.com> <2f5893996d844649b529f184da975881@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <9910C22A-B9A0-49D9-B3EC-9E51D96CA372@gmail.com> <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> Did I drop the thread of this topic? Or did things get resolved? I looked to see if I might send some writing I've been working on that summarizes LSV's account of stages, but it's way too rough. Martin On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Martin, >> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could say a >> bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? The >> others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more >> complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different about the >> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. >> -greg >> >> > Greg > > See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's Psyche > in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. 361-362) > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf > > Best, > Huw > > > >> >> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>> wrote: >> >>> Though in other texts he wrote of adolescence as such a time of crisis >>> that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In the lectures >> on >>> child development Vygotsky describes the following crises: >>> >>> Birth: the child is differentiated physically >>> 1 year: the child is differentiated biologically >>> 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically >>> 6 years: inside & outside of self are differentiated >>> 12 years: actual & possible selves are differentiated >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> >>>> Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm >>>> are associated with childhood before school. (It is an unfinished >> work). >>>> Andy >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> In any case, I wonder if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself >>> might >>>>> be responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent alienation >>> from >>>>> schooling at these moments. >>>>> >>>>> Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 10 16:59:32 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:59:32 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> References: <2E240906-B450-4804-93CC-484C6E8F98CA@gmail.com> <2f5893996d844649b529f184da975881@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <9910C22A-B9A0-49D9-B3EC-9E51D96CA372@gmail.com> <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <53E80764.3020100@mira.net> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/wits/vygotsky-development.pdf a ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Martin John Packer wrote: > Did I drop the thread of this topic? Or did things get resolved? I looked to see if I might send some writing I've been working on that summarizes LSV's account of stages, but it's way too rough. > > Martin > > On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > >> On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> >>> Martin, >>> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could say a >>> bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? The >>> others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more >>> complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different about the >>> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> >> Greg >> >> See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's Psyche >> in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. 361-362) >> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf >> >> Best, >> Huw >> > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 17:43:29 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 01:43:29 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: <53E80764.3020100@mira.net> References: <2E240906-B450-4804-93CC-484C6E8F98CA@gmail.com> <2f5893996d844649b529f184da975881@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <9910C22A-B9A0-49D9-B3EC-9E51D96CA372@gmail.com> <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> <53E80764.3020100@mira.net> Message-ID: :) Am not sure about "conditions for the front-brain", but I can confirm from my observations that its all about coordination with the boob-lady to feed, sleep and pooh (8 wks). Burping is a task for either parent... He has a gesture of looking over his right shoulder for the boob-lady. Sometimes he'll look back, out of the corner of his eye, as if to say "Did you clock that signal?" Best, Huw On 11 August 2014 00:59, Andy Blunden wrote: > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/wits/vygotsky-development.pdf > > a > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Did I drop the thread of this topic? Or did things get resolved? I looked >> to see if I might send some writing I've been working on that summarizes >> LSV's account of stages, but it's way too rough. >> >> Martin >> >> On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> >> >>> On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Martin, >>>> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could >>>> say a >>>> bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? The >>>> others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more >>>> complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different about >>>> the >>>> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Greg >>> >>> See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's Psyche >>> in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. >>> 361-362) >>> >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >> >> > From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Sun Aug 10 18:20:10 2014 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:20:10 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: <1406747630904.48823@uga.edu> References: <1406744430.27578.YahooMailBasic@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1406747630904.48823@uga.edu> Message-ID: I've always understood Vygotsky's crises as being related to a change in social positioning: 1: Baby starts to walk and talk which radically alters her social positioning with others (particularly with immediate family/caregivers) 3: Begins pre-school - exposed to new adults and peers, expected to participate in group activities 6/7: Begins school - new expectations on child to take up position as 'learner' 12: Adolescence - physical changes bring about changes in interests, social relationships etc I've got no idea how well-founded this understanding is, but it's the only way I have been able to make sense of why we criticise Piaget's ages/stages model and accept Vygotsky's. It also means though that we have to be flexible about the ages given, i.e. in Australia children start school at 5, so the 6/7 crisis would appear earlier. My 2 bobs worth Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Room G64F, Building 902 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 *New Book: * The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical Approach Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers On 31 July 2014 05:13, Katherine Wester Neal wrote: > I agree that a monumental crisis takes place between the age of 2 and 3. I > wouldn't call it the "terrible twos," but I think it results from the > "language explosion" that often occurs at that age. A child learns that all > these sounds s/he has been hearing can be used meaningfully as a tool for > exerting control on the world around him/her and faces a crisis in how to > use them. > > I think the crisis around 6 years old comes from the understanding that > what one does in the world has consequences. That change, as I understand > it, is the basis for laws that place the age of culpability around 5-6 in > the U.S. (In many U.S. states, children under this age can't be charged > with a crime because they don't have the capability to understand that > they've done something wrong.) Perhaps there are other suggestions? And > what typifies the crisis at 1? How is it biological? > > Katie > > Katie Wester-Neal > University of Georgia > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of peter jones > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:20 PM > To: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head > > The one at 2-2.5 is easy - "terrible twos"? :-) > Is this just a myth though? > > More seriously, there do appear to developmental milestones however: > Use of and ambivalence in Yes / No? > Regards, > Peter (father of three) > ------------------------------- > Peter Jones > Lancashire, UK > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 30/7/14, Greg Thompson wrote: > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2014, 18:30 > > Martin, > Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult > essay. I wonder if you could say a > bit more > about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? > The > others are fairly self explanatory but > those two are a bit more > complicated. Among > other things, it isn't clear what is different about > the > crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. > -greg > > > On > Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Though in other texts he wrote of > adolescence as such a time of crisis > > > that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In > the lectures on > > child development > Vygotsky describes the following crises: > > > > Birth: the child is > differentiated physically > > 1 year: the > child is differentiated biologically > > > 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically > > 6 years: inside & outside of self are > differentiated > > 12 years: actual & > possible selves are differentiated > > > > Martin > > > > On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > > > > Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > > > are associated with childhood before > school. (It is an unfinished work). > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > > >> ... > > > >> > > >> In any case, I wonder > if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself > > might > > >> be > responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent > alienation > > from > > > >> schooling at these moments. > > > >> > > >> Francis J. Sullivan, > Ph.D. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. > Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 > Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young > University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 10 18:50:32 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:50:32 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <1406744430.27578.YahooMailBasic@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1406747630904.48823@uga.edu> Message-ID: <53E82168.5000506@mira.net> Exactly, as I see it, Helen. And I'd go further. It applies to adults as well. When we talk about development during adolescence and adulthood, it also means changing one's social position. Of course we can use words with whatever meaning we choose, but I think in the CHAT tradition, personality development must be interpreted in that way. And it is the crises involved in revolutionising our social position that are associated with perezhivanija. Sometimes the change in social position comes from outside, and the crisis is one of adaptation. But it can also be a crisis coming from the self - reacting to what is unsatisfactory in the world and either changing the position of the person within their social circumstances, or transforming those very circumstances themselves. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Helen Grimmett wrote: > I've always understood Vygotsky's crises as being related to a change in > social positioning: > > 1: Baby starts to walk and talk which radically alters her social > positioning with others (particularly with immediate family/caregivers) > 3: Begins pre-school - exposed to new adults and peers, expected to > participate in group activities > 6/7: Begins school - new expectations on child to take up position as > 'learner' > 12: Adolescence - physical changes bring about changes in interests, social > relationships etc > > I've got no idea how well-founded this understanding is, but it's the only > way I have been able to make sense of why we criticise Piaget's ages/stages > model and accept Vygotsky's. It also means though that we have to be > flexible about the ages given, i.e. in Australia children start school at > 5, so the 6/7 crisis would appear earlier. > > My 2 bobs worth > Helen > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > Faculty of Education, > Room G64F, Building 902 > Monash University, Berwick campus > Phone: 9904 7171 > > *New Book: * > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > Approach > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > On 31 July 2014 05:13, Katherine Wester Neal wrote: > > >> I agree that a monumental crisis takes place between the age of 2 and 3. I >> wouldn't call it the "terrible twos," but I think it results from the >> "language explosion" that often occurs at that age. A child learns that all >> these sounds s/he has been hearing can be used meaningfully as a tool for >> exerting control on the world around him/her and faces a crisis in how to >> use them. >> >> I think the crisis around 6 years old comes from the understanding that >> what one does in the world has consequences. That change, as I understand >> it, is the basis for laws that place the age of culpability around 5-6 in >> the U.S. (In many U.S. states, children under this age can't be charged >> with a crime because they don't have the capability to understand that >> they've done something wrong.) Perhaps there are other suggestions? And >> what typifies the crisis at 1? How is it biological? >> >> Katie >> >> Katie Wester-Neal >> University of Georgia >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of peter jones >> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:20 PM >> To: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head >> >> The one at 2-2.5 is easy - "terrible twos"? :-) >> Is this just a myth though? >> >> More seriously, there do appear to developmental milestones however: >> Use of and ambivalence in Yes / No? >> Regards, >> Peter (father of three) >> ------------------------------- >> Peter Jones >> Lancashire, UK >> Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" >> http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ >> h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care >> http://twitter.com/h2cm >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 30/7/14, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2014, 18:30 >> >> Martin, >> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult >> essay. I wonder if you could say a >> bit more >> about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? >> The >> others are fairly self explanatory but >> those two are a bit more >> complicated. Among >> other things, it isn't clear what is different about >> the >> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. >> -greg >> >> >> On >> Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer > > wrote: >> >> > Though in other texts he wrote of >> adolescence as such a time of crisis >> > >> that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In >> the lectures on >> > child development >> Vygotsky describes the following crises: >> > >> > Birth: the child is >> differentiated physically >> > 1 year: the >> child is differentiated biologically >> > >> 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically >> > 6 years: inside & outside of self are >> differentiated >> > 12 years: actual & >> possible selves are differentiated >> > >> > Martin >> > >> > On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> wrote: >> > >> > > >> Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in >> > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm >> > > are associated with childhood before >> school. (It is an unfinished work). >> > >> > Andy >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > *Andy Blunden* >> > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> > > >> > > >> > > FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: >> > >> ... >> > >> >> >> > >> In any case, I wonder >> if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself >> > might >> > >> be >> responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent >> alienation >> > from >> > >> >> schooling at these moments. >> > >> >> >> > >> Francis J. Sullivan, >> Ph.D. >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. >> Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 >> Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young >> University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 18:50:16 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 02:50:16 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <1406744430.27578.YahooMailBasic@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1406747630904.48823@uga.edu> Message-ID: Helen, Yes. But I would put it down to the (potential) struggle to author their own activity (based upon the social understanding). Hence play activity which entails, predominantly, authoring or moulding (molding to most of you) acts. Directives which would have previously come from their parents etc. Hence this is a shift in the ZPD (assuming the parents recognise this). Vygotsky's position (IIRC) was that the crisis isn't necessary. It's only a crisis if one fails to notice the shift. Best, Huw On 11 August 2014 02:20, Helen Grimmett wrote: > I've always understood Vygotsky's crises as being related to a change in > social positioning: > > 1: Baby starts to walk and talk which radically alters her social > positioning with others (particularly with immediate family/caregivers) > 3: Begins pre-school - exposed to new adults and peers, expected to > participate in group activities > 6/7: Begins school - new expectations on child to take up position as > 'learner' > 12: Adolescence - physical changes bring about changes in interests, social > relationships etc > > I've got no idea how well-founded this understanding is, but it's the only > way I have been able to make sense of why we criticise Piaget's ages/stages > model and accept Vygotsky's. It also means though that we have to be > flexible about the ages given, i.e. in Australia children start school at > 5, so the 6/7 crisis would appear earlier. > > My 2 bobs worth > Helen > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > Faculty of Education, > Room G64F, Building 902 > Monash University, Berwick campus > Phone: 9904 7171 > > *New Book: * > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > Approach > < > https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/professional-learning-1/the-practice-of-teachers-professional-development/ > > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > < > http://monash.edu.au/education/news/50-years/?utm_source=staff-email&utm_medium=email-signature&utm_campaign=50th > > > > > On 31 July 2014 05:13, Katherine Wester Neal wrote: > > > I agree that a monumental crisis takes place between the age of 2 and 3. > I > > wouldn't call it the "terrible twos," but I think it results from the > > "language explosion" that often occurs at that age. A child learns that > all > > these sounds s/he has been hearing can be used meaningfully as a tool for > > exerting control on the world around him/her and faces a crisis in how to > > use them. > > > > I think the crisis around 6 years old comes from the understanding that > > what one does in the world has consequences. That change, as I understand > > it, is the basis for laws that place the age of culpability around 5-6 in > > the U.S. (In many U.S. states, children under this age can't be charged > > with a crime because they don't have the capability to understand that > > they've done something wrong.) Perhaps there are other suggestions? And > > what typifies the crisis at 1? How is it biological? > > > > Katie > > > > Katie Wester-Neal > > University of Georgia > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > on behalf of peter jones > > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:20 PM > > To: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head > > > > The one at 2-2.5 is easy - "terrible twos"? :-) > > Is this just a myth though? > > > > More seriously, there do appear to developmental milestones however: > > Use of and ambivalence in Yes / No? > > Regards, > > Peter (father of three) > > ------------------------------- > > Peter Jones > > Lancashire, UK > > Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" > > http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ > > h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care > > http://twitter.com/h2cm > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 30/7/14, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2014, 18:30 > > > > Martin, > > Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult > > essay. I wonder if you could say a > > bit more > > about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? > > The > > others are fairly self explanatory but > > those two are a bit more > > complicated. Among > > other things, it isn't clear what is different about > > the > > crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. > > -greg > > > > > > On > > Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > > wrote: > > > > > Though in other texts he wrote of > > adolescence as such a time of crisis > > > > > that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In > > the lectures on > > > child development > > Vygotsky describes the following crises: > > > > > > Birth: the child is > > differentiated physically > > > 1 year: the > > child is differentiated biologically > > > > > 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically > > > 6 years: inside & outside of self are > > differentiated > > > 12 years: actual & > > possible selves are differentiated > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in > > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > > > > are associated with childhood before > > school. (It is an unfinished work). > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > > > >> ... > > > > > >> > > > >> In any case, I wonder > > if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself > > > might > > > >> be > > responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent > > alienation > > > from > > > > > >> schooling at these moments. > > > > > >> > > > >> Francis J. Sullivan, > > Ph.D. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. > > Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 > > Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young > > University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:39:09 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2014 20:39:09 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> References: <0ABD8052-EF53-493B-8A8C-E6EC00F0C5FB@gmail.com> <2E240906-B450-4804-93CC-484C6E8F98CA@gmail.com> <2f5893996d844649b529f184da975881@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <9910C22A-B9A0-49D9-B3EC-9E51D96CA372@gmail.com> <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin (and others), I would love to hear another exposition of the 6 yr and 12 yr crises. So if you could put together a couple sentences of what you were trying to articulate, that would be much appreciated. And as a provocation, I'll throw my two cents into the ring (aren't mixed metaphors wonderful? Word-play as double stimulation?). My thinking is greatly influenced by John Lucy's work (but please note that this is my interpretation of his work!). John is quite influenced by Vygotsky but he is an unorthodox Vygotskian and departs in many ways from how many read Vygotsky, but he hews very closely to the importance of language developments leading other developments (and some would call him unorthodox for that reason). So here goes. The crisis at 6 years (John puts it at 7-9 years, a broader range b.c. let's face it, development isn't even across large populations) is a transformative crisis in which the child comes to see the world in an entirely new way. The child grasps that there is a whole other world out there that is transposed on top of the actual world that of bodies and houses and trees and things, and they realize that this social world is highly consequential. The first part of this involves the development of an ability to understand that things can be other than they are. At the most basic level, this involves the ability to understand that people don't always speak literally. Sometimes they can say things in ways that are opposite to the words that are coming out of their mouths. That's an important first step to understanding that there is a world behind the words that are uttered. Second is being able to understand that these non-literal meanings have consequences. Being able to understand the true meanings behind the words is a really impressive feat (we humans can be rather obtuse beings). These developments throw the child into a world that is totally foreign to them - a bit like a two dimensional being suddenly finding themselves in three dimensions (cf. the movie Flatland). The child must learn to make their way in this land, and to begin to navigate through these three dimensional social worlds. As for the 12 year transformation, the essential idea is that the child at this age begins to realize not just that there is this three dimensional social space, but also that they can position themselves with respect to that space. I think of this as the development of "voice" (Bakhtin) - in which the child begins to gain the ability to play with their presentations of self so as to manage their voice. Holden Caulfield is the hero of this crisis - a boy who is fixated on the possibility of people not being their "real" selves. Authenticity becomes a central theme of this crisis, and this is further developed in themes of being true to oneself (e.g., Hamlet). Anyway, that is a poor stab at trying to articulate another explanation of the 6 yr and 12 yr crisis. But I mostly offer it as a way of provoking others to give their explanations. -greg On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Did I drop the thread of this topic? Or did things get resolved? I looked > to see if I might send some writing I've been working on that summarizes > LSV's account of stages, but it's way too rough. > > Martin > > On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >> Martin, > >> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could > say a > >> bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? The > >> others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more > >> complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different about > the > >> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. > >> -greg > >> > >> > > Greg > > > > See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's Psyche > > in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. > 361-362) > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> Though in other texts he wrote of adolescence as such a time of crisis > >>> that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In the lectures > >> on > >>> child development Vygotsky describes the following crises: > >>> > >>> Birth: the child is differentiated physically > >>> 1 year: the child is differentiated biologically > >>> 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically > >>> 6 years: inside & outside of self are differentiated > >>> 12 years: actual & possible selves are differentiated > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>> > >>>> Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in > >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > >>>> are associated with childhood before school. (It is an unfinished > >> work). > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In any case, I wonder if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself > >>> might > >>>>> be responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent alienation > >>> from > >>>>> schooling at these moments. > >>>>> > >>>>> Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 22:31:24 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 14:31:24 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <0ABD8052-EF53-493B-8A8C-E6EC00F0C5FB@gmail.com> <2E240906-B450-4804-93CC-484C6E8F98CA@gmail.com> <2f5893996d844649b529f184da975881@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <9910C22A-B9A0-49D9-B3EC-9E51D96CA372@gmail.com> <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I keep thinking that the title of the thread should really be changed. But our group here in Seoul has been translating Vygotsky's lectures on pedology, and a central theme of the lectures is, believe it or not, the ideal head. Vygotsky, who is a teacher with a very fine knack for striking images, wants to convey the idea that development is not a matter of developing this function or that one, but rather a matter of proportion, that is, the relationship between functions. So he keeps reminding his students how the head, the limbs, and the torso change in proportion and in their relative weight as the child grows. The same thing is true within the body--the various glands of the endocrine system rise and fall like governments, and sometimes one gland which relies on the help of another gland to rise for power discovers, like the bourgeoisie, that it has prepared its own grave-digger (e.g. the pituitary and thyroid glands, which are trying to depose the thymus, rely on the sex glands which eventually bring about their own overthrow). Vygotsky warns students against constructing a picture of development in which one psychological function simply replaces another. He points out that when "affective perception", which is supposed to be the first differentiated and dominant function in early childhood, seizes power, it has no rival, because none of the other functions are differentiated yet. Then, when "memory", which is supposed to be the most rapidly developing and therefore predominating function in the preschooler, takes command, it must necessarily share power with perception (which is now internally differentiated, between emotion and sensation); a "deposed" function doesn't somehow de-differentiated itself. And in later years, according to Vygotsky, it is no longer necessary for a function to seize power for it to become differentiated, simply because the process of reconstructing the interfunctional relations each time a new function predominates works to "repel" functions by subtracting the linking function (affective perception, memory) which once inked them. I think we can see from this that Vygotsky doesn't have in mind a simple, linear timeline in which one function replaces another, or one leading activity replaces another, or one neoformation replaces another. In fact, the crisis Greg is referring to is the Crisis at Seven, which Martin very aptly described as the crisis of the differentiation of inside the ego and its outside. (I must ask Martin where he got that wonderful description of the age periods!) Vygotsky gives a number of symptoms, as he does for each crisis, and the one he gives for this one is particularly fetching: it is the child who has learned to play-act, but doesn't really have a specific role in mind, and just enjoys talking with a squeaky voice, or waddling instead of walking, or some other affected but not actually descriptive form of behavior. Vygotsky even points out that the humor of Charlie Chaplin depends largely on the assumption that a person could grow into adulthood WITHOUT passing through this stage (and therefore having the kind of immediacy of emotion that we observe in five year olds all of his life). When I was in art school in China, we had a similar exercise. The professors wanted to show us that the discovery of proportion in painting children was a very late discovery in art. We were told that the ancient Greeks considered the ideal head to be exactly one eighth of the body height (and according to the archaeological record, the Greeks themselves were only about seven heads talll, although their statues are usually eight heads in eight). Because of the influence of Greek art, we see that children throughout a great deal of Western art look like small adults, with physiques that Vygotsky would call "eunuchoid" (that is, pin heads and very long arms and legs, like the celebrated castrato Farinelli). One of da Vinci's brilliant contributions to art was to paint a Madonna and child where, because Mary's head is almost the same size as Jesus's, Jesus actually looks correctly proportioned for a child. This summer we are working on teaching mathematics to kids who love to draw. So one exercise we are going to do is having them work out the correct formula for drawing ideal heads from a child's age. In case you don't know it, it is: y = 9 (H - 4)/2, where "y" is the number of years, and H is the height of the child in heads. Interestingly, the average person today, thanks to improved nutrition since the time of the ancient Greeks, is almost eight heads tall. So we have, Nietszche to the contrary not withstanding, managed to become not what the Greeks were, but rather what they wanted to be. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 11 August 2014 11:39, Greg Thompson wrote: > Martin (and others), > > I would love to hear another exposition of the 6 yr and 12 yr crises. So if > you could put together a couple sentences of what you were trying to > articulate, that would be much appreciated. > > And as a provocation, I'll throw my two cents into the ring (aren't mixed > metaphors wonderful? Word-play as double stimulation?). > > My thinking is greatly influenced by John Lucy's work (but please note that > this is my interpretation of his work!). John is quite influenced by > Vygotsky but he is an unorthodox Vygotskian and departs in many ways from > how many read Vygotsky, but he hews very closely to the importance of > language developments leading other developments (and some would call him > unorthodox for that reason). > > So here goes. The crisis at 6 years (John puts it at 7-9 years, a broader > range b.c. let's face it, development isn't even across large populations) > is a transformative crisis in which the child comes to see the world in an > entirely new way. The child grasps that there is a whole other world out > there that is transposed on top of the actual world that of bodies and > houses and trees and things, and they realize that this social world is > highly consequential. The first part of this involves the development of an > ability to understand that things can be other than they are. At the most > basic level, this involves the ability to understand that people don't > always speak literally. Sometimes they can say things in ways that are > opposite to the words that are coming out of their mouths. That's an > important first step to understanding that there is a world behind the > words that are uttered. Second is being able to understand that these > non-literal meanings have consequences. Being able to understand the true > meanings behind the words is a really impressive feat (we humans can be > rather obtuse beings). These developments throw the child into a world that > is totally foreign to them - a bit like a two dimensional being suddenly > finding themselves in three dimensions (cf. the movie Flatland). The child > must learn to make their way in this land, and to begin to navigate through > these three dimensional social worlds. > > As for the 12 year transformation, the essential idea is that the child at > this age begins to realize not just that there is this three dimensional > social space, but also that they can position themselves with respect to > that space. I think of this as the development of "voice" (Bakhtin) - in > which the child begins to gain the ability to play with their presentations > of self so as to manage their voice. Holden Caulfield is the hero of this > crisis - a boy who is fixated on the possibility of people not being their > "real" selves. Authenticity becomes a central theme of this crisis, and > this is further developed in themes of being true to oneself (e.g., > Hamlet). > > Anyway, that is a poor stab at trying to articulate another explanation of > the 6 yr and 12 yr crisis. But I mostly offer it as a way of provoking > others to give their explanations. > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > wrote: > > > Did I drop the thread of this topic? Or did things get resolved? I looked > > to see if I might send some writing I've been working on that summarizes > > LSV's account of stages, but it's way too rough. > > > > Martin > > > > On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > > > > > On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > > > >> Martin, > > >> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could > > say a > > >> bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? > The > > >> others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more > > >> complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different > about > > the > > >> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. > > >> -greg > > >> > > >> > > > Greg > > > > > > See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's > Psyche > > > in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. > > 361-362) > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf > > > > > > Best, > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer < > > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > >>> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Though in other texts he wrote of adolescence as such a time of > crisis > > >>> that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In the > lectures > > >> on > > >>> child development Vygotsky describes the following crises: > > >>> > > >>> Birth: the child is differentiated physically > > >>> 1 year: the child is differentiated biologically > > >>> 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically > > >>> 6 years: inside & outside of self are differentiated > > >>> 12 years: actual & possible selves are differentiated > > >>> > > >>> Martin > > >>> > > >>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in > > >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > > >>>> are associated with childhood before school. (It is an unfinished > > >> work). > > >>>> Andy > > >>>> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > > >>>>> ... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In any case, I wonder if Vygotsky considered whether schooling > itself > > >>> might > > >>>>> be responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent > alienation > > >>> from > > >>>>> schooling at these moments. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >> Assistant Professor > > >> Department of Anthropology > > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >> Brigham Young University > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:28:34 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:28:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Leo Tolstoy Message-ID: Here is an article about Tolstoy and his best books. Lots of value here. *http://www.openculture.com/2014/07/leo-tolstoy-creates-a-list-of-the-50-books-that-influenced-him-most-1891.html * There is more if you go to the article about him. Carol -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:28:34 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:28:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Leo Tolstoy Message-ID: Here is an article about Tolstoy and his best books. Lots of value here. *http://www.openculture.com/2014/07/leo-tolstoy-creates-a-list-of-the-50-books-that-influenced-him-most-1891.html * There is more if you go to the article about him. Carol -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Mon Aug 11 10:29:01 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:29:01 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <53D6DE8C.9040300@mira.net> <6709CE6B-1C7F-454C-B320-422335C4D40A@uniandes.edu.co> <44A9515F-AFA4-44BC-9AA2-CB79CDF6FD86@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <20140811172901.5197965.78948.9693@ucdenver.edu> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. From: Greg Thompson Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Benjamin Smith Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head Martin (and others), I would love to hear another exposition of the 6 yr and 12 yr crises. So if you could put together a couple sentences of what you were trying to articulate, that would be much appreciated. And as a provocation, I'll throw my two cents into the ring (aren't mixed metaphors wonderful? Word-play as double stimulation?). My thinking is greatly influenced by John Lucy's work (but please note that this is my interpretation of his work!). John is quite influenced by Vygotsky but he is an unorthodox Vygotskian and departs in many ways from how many read Vygotsky, but he hews very closely to the importance of language developments leading other developments (and some would call him unorthodox for that reason). So here goes. The crisis at 6 years (John puts it at 7-9 years, a broader range b.c. let's face it, development isn't even across large populations) is a transformative crisis in which the child comes to see the world in an entirely new way. The child grasps that there is a whole other world out there that is transposed on top of the actual world that of bodies and houses and trees and things, and they realize that this social world is highly consequential. The first part of this involves the development of an ability to understand that things can be other than they are. At the most basic level, this involves the ability to understand that people don't always speak literally. Sometimes they can say things in ways that are opposite to the words that are coming out of their mouths. That's an important first step to understanding that there is a world behind the words that are uttered. Second is being able to understand that these non-literal meanings have consequences. Being able to understand the true meanings behind the words is a really impressive feat (we humans can be rather obtuse beings). These developments throw the child into a world that is totally foreign to them - a bit like a two dimensional being suddenly finding themselves in three dimensions (cf. the movie Flatland). The child must learn to make their way in this land, and to begin to navigate through these three dimensional social worlds. As for the 12 year transformation, the essential idea is that the child at this age begins to realize not just that there is this three dimensional social space, but also that they can position themselves with respect to that space. I think of this as the development of "voice" (Bakhtin) - in which the child begins to gain the ability to play with their presentations of self so as to manage their voice. Holden Caulfield is the hero of this crisis - a boy who is fixated on the possibility of people not being their "real" selves. Authenticity becomes a central theme of this crisis, and this is further developed in themes of being true to oneself (e.g., Hamlet). Anyway, that is a poor stab at trying to articulate another explanation of the 6 yr and 12 yr crisis. But I mostly offer it as a way of provoking others to give their explanations. -greg On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Did I drop the thread of this topic? Or did things get resolved? I looked > to see if I might send some writing I've been working on that summarizes > LSV's account of stages, but it's way too rough. > > Martin > > On Aug 10, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 30 July 2014 18:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >> Martin, > >> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult essay. I wonder if you could > say a > >> bit more about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? The > >> others are fairly self explanatory but those two are a bit more > >> complicated. Among other things, it isn't clear what is different about > the > >> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. > >> -greg > >> > >> > > Greg > > > > See Leontyev's paper, The Theory of the Development of the Child's Psyche > > in The Development of Mind: Selected Works of A. N. Leontyev (pp. > 361-362) > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/development-mind.pdf > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> Though in other texts he wrote of adolescence as such a time of crisis > >>> that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In the lectures > >> on > >>> child development Vygotsky describes the following crises: > >>> > >>> Birth: the child is differentiated physically > >>> 1 year: the child is differentiated biologically > >>> 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically > >>> 6 years: inside & outside of self are differentiated > >>> 12 years: actual & possible selves are differentiated > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>> > >>>> Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in > >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm > >>>> are associated with childhood before school. (It is an unfinished > >> work). > >>>> Andy > >>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: > >>>>> ... > >>>>> > >>>>> In any case, I wonder if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself > >>> might > >>>>> be responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent alienation > >>> from > >>>>> schooling at these moments. > >>>>> > >>>>> Francis J. Sullivan, Ph.D. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Aug 11 15:07:10 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:07:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head In-Reply-To: References: <1406744430.27578.YahooMailBasic@web171505.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1406747630904.48823@uga.edu> Message-ID: <7FC7A750-49F9-433B-A878-12962F186B8A@uniandes.edu.co> I think this thread grew out of a question about the bio-social-behavioral shifts in Mike's textbook. I think Mike was right to emphasize that each point of transition is a punctuation in a dynamic system that involves not only the child but other people (caregivers, teachers, peers....), and that biological changes play a part not only at the end of infancy and the start of adolescence but at the other transitions too. As a species we create niches in which our children can live and grow, and an adequate understanding of psychological development has to study the niche, not the individual. Martin On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:20 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote: > I've always understood Vygotsky's crises as being related to a change in > social positioning: > > 1: Baby starts to walk and talk which radically alters her social > positioning with others (particularly with immediate family/caregivers) > 3: Begins pre-school - exposed to new adults and peers, expected to > participate in group activities > 6/7: Begins school - new expectations on child to take up position as > 'learner' > 12: Adolescence - physical changes bring about changes in interests, social > relationships etc > > I've got no idea how well-founded this understanding is, but it's the only > way I have been able to make sense of why we criticise Piaget's ages/stages > model and accept Vygotsky's. It also means though that we have to be > flexible about the ages given, i.e. in Australia children start school at > 5, so the 6/7 crisis would appear earlier. > > My 2 bobs worth > Helen > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > Faculty of Education, > Room G64F, Building 902 > Monash University, Berwick campus > Phone: 9904 7171 > > *New Book: * > The Practice of Teachers' Professional Development: A Cultural-Historical > Approach > > Helen Grimmett (2014) Sense Publishers > > > > > > > On 31 July 2014 05:13, Katherine Wester Neal wrote: > >> I agree that a monumental crisis takes place between the age of 2 and 3. I >> wouldn't call it the "terrible twos," but I think it results from the >> "language explosion" that often occurs at that age. A child learns that all >> these sounds s/he has been hearing can be used meaningfully as a tool for >> exerting control on the world around him/her and faces a crisis in how to >> use them. >> >> I think the crisis around 6 years old comes from the understanding that >> what one does in the world has consequences. That change, as I understand >> it, is the basis for laws that place the age of culpability around 5-6 in >> the U.S. (In many U.S. states, children under this age can't be charged >> with a crime because they don't have the capability to understand that >> they've done something wrong.) Perhaps there are other suggestions? And >> what typifies the crisis at 1? How is it biological? >> >> Katie >> >> Katie Wester-Neal >> University of Georgia >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of peter jones >> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:20 PM >> To: Culture ActivityeXtended Mind >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head >> >> The one at 2-2.5 is easy - "terrible twos"? :-) >> Is this just a myth though? >> >> More seriously, there do appear to developmental milestones however: >> Use of and ambivalence in Yes / No? >> Regards, >> Peter (father of three) >> ------------------------------- >> Peter Jones >> Lancashire, UK >> Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" >> http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ >> h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care >> http://twitter.com/h2cm >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 30/7/14, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The ideal head >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> Date: Wednesday, 30 July, 2014, 18:30 >> >> Martin, >> Vygotsky's Problem of Age is a difficult >> essay. I wonder if you could say a >> bit more >> about the crisis at 6 (7,8?) years and the one at 12 years? >> The >> others are fairly self explanatory but >> those two are a bit more >> complicated. Among >> other things, it isn't clear what is different about >> the >> crisis at 2.5 and the crisis at 6. >> -greg >> >> >> On >> Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 6:44 AM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> Though in other texts he wrote of >> adolescence as such a time of crisis >>> >> that the whole stage should be considered a transition. In >> the lectures on >>> child development >> Vygotsky describes the following crises: >>> >>> Birth: the child is >> differentiated physically >>> 1 year: the >> child is differentiated biologically >>> >> 2.5 years: the child is differentiated psychologically >>> 6 years: inside & outside of self are >> differentiated >>> 12 years: actual & >> possible selves are differentiated >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Jul 28, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Andy Blunden >> >> wrote: >>> >>>> >> Francis, most of the crises which Vygotsky mentions in >>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-age.htm >>>> are associated with childhood before >> school. (It is an unfinished work). >>> >>> Andy >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN wrote: >>>>> ... >>> >>>> >>>>> In any case, I wonder >> if Vygotsky considered whether schooling itself >>> might >>>>> be >> responsible, at least partly, for the child's apparent >> alienation >>> from >>> >>>> schooling at these moments. >>> >>>> >>>>> Francis J. Sullivan, >> Ph.D. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. >> Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 >> Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young >> University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Mon Aug 11 23:24:05 2014 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 06:24:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bb8ca8d815a45eba659bfedbb771955@PMB-MBX-1.local.ukzn.ac.za> Dear Colleagues Paula Towsey's funeral service is today at 11.30 (SA time). Flowers have been delivered to the church on behalf of the Xmca community, and Carol Macdonald will read a tribute also on behalf of xmca In consultation with Barbara Smith, Paula's sister, she made a request to this forum that "everyone light a candle for her tomorrow as i have already asked some so that there will be candles lit for her all around the world this i will be mentioning at her service - also that i am compiling a file of all the wishes coming in which i will make copies of for anyone who wishes its all so sudden and the best any of us can do is to honour her by being glad that she touched our lives " Messages can be sent to Barbara at: bmsmith05@gmail.com Regards Mary ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Carol Macdonald Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2014 7:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Paula Towsey Fellow XMCA-ers Sorry I have been away today, and didn't update people on the latest information about Paula. Here is a message from her sister: Paula was alone at home on sunday night when she apparently fell and hit her head and by the time help came on monday morning - it was too late unbelievable tragedy Her funeral is planned for tuesday 12 at 11:30 in the Bryanston Catholic Church please light a candle for her I will read a tribute from XMCA for Paula at her funeral, and will tell you about the flowers from you guys. I haven't spoken to her husband John yet, so don't yet know what the post-mortem showed about the exact cause of her death. I will write and tell you about the service later on Tuesday. Carol -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Mon Aug 11 23:24:05 2014 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 06:24:05 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bb8ca8d815a45eba659bfedbb771955@PMB-MBX-1.local.ukzn.ac.za> Dear Colleagues Paula Towsey's funeral service is today at 11.30 (SA time). Flowers have been delivered to the church on behalf of the Xmca community, and Carol Macdonald will read a tribute also on behalf of xmca In consultation with Barbara Smith, Paula's sister, she made a request to this forum that "everyone light a candle for her tomorrow as i have already asked some so that there will be candles lit for her all around the world this i will be mentioning at her service - also that i am compiling a file of all the wishes coming in which i will make copies of for anyone who wishes its all so sudden and the best any of us can do is to honour her by being glad that she touched our lives " Messages can be sent to Barbara at: bmsmith05@gmail.com Regards Mary ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of Carol Macdonald Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2014 7:14 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Paula Towsey Fellow XMCA-ers Sorry I have been away today, and didn't update people on the latest information about Paula. Here is a message from her sister: Paula was alone at home on sunday night when she apparently fell and hit her head and by the time help came on monday morning - it was too late unbelievable tragedy Her funeral is planned for tuesday 12 at 11:30 in the Bryanston Catholic Church please light a candle for her I will read a tribute from XMCA for Paula at her funeral, and will tell you about the flowers from you guys. I haven't spoken to her husband John yet, so don't yet know what the post-mortem showed about the exact cause of her death. I will write and tell you about the service later on Tuesday. Carol -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Aug 12 20:56:39 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 20:56:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] A candle beyond the horizon Message-ID: A candle beyond the horizon Or in the window. Bits of Africa And a California Garden ... And memory -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A candle for Paula.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2241519 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140812/ca2624b2/attachment-0001.jpg From carolmacdon@gmail.com Tue Aug 12 22:51:16 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 07:51:16 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A candle beyond the horizon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Mike. That means a great deal. I shall send it to Barbara as well. Carol On 13 August 2014 05:56, mike cole wrote: > A candle beyond the horizon > Or in the window. > Bits of Africa > And a California Garden > ... And memory > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A candle for Paula.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2241519 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140813/1cb13099/attachment-0001.jpg From carolmacdon@gmail.com Wed Aug 13 10:25:07 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:25:07 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Memorial tribute for Paula Towsey Message-ID: Hello Colleagues Here is the text which was presented at the funeral of Paula Towsey - a force in CHAT - on 12th August 2014: Tribute from the XMCA Community Paula Towsey was one of us. In fact, she was one of a very few of us who have not just read Vygotsky's major work, *Thinking and Speech, *but tried to get inside it, to bring it back to life and remake it with living and breathing, thinking and speaking children of our own times. None of us in the XMCA community outside of Africa know much about her life before she began her research. We have heard that she was a teacher, that she rejected teaching under apartheid and spent at least part of her career in exile in Botswana, and that somewhere along the way she must have learned lots about music and South African wine and Milan Kundera and wildlife. But mostly we know that she knew an awful lot about one chapter of Vygotsky's book, the chapter which describes a series of experiments in which children are encourage to form concepts in order to solve a puzzle. In Vygotsky's original experiment in the Soviet Union of the 1920s, the children used blocks of various sizes and colours. More playfully, Paula used a set of trolls, which varied in hairiness and whether they were right handed or left handed to extend these experiments. But Paula also went to unbelievable lengths to recover in the most unimaginable detail all the conditions of Vygotsky's experiment all those years ago, and to replicate them in present-day South Africa. Even clue and every source, however remote, was tracked down and interrogated. Her success in reproducing Vygotsky's results in the completely different cultural and historical conditions of present-day South Africa is of considerable importance. For a postgraduate student to have achieved this is remarkable. And her passion for defending and advocating for the significance of these experiments, in the face of criticism from prominent figures in our community was outstanding. Her article on these experiments was published in MCA in 2009, and this paper ranks the *third highest* of any article in our journal for the number of times it has been downloaded. Several of us participated in the production of an on-line video, which Paula directed, discussing these experiments. She used PowerPoint to create a vehicle for Mike Cole and David Kellogg to explain their interpretation of these experiments in dialogue with each other and her. Her role as producer involved the collection of graphics and a voice over which gave the otherwise amateur production a BBC quality which was striking. And showing the same spirit that she had displayed in chasing down the details of Vygotsky's experiments in Soviet Russia, a glitch which Paula came across in combining the audio files with PowerPoint - an imperfection which thousands before must have tolerated - she chased down and badgered MicroSoft until they put it right. Any of us who had the chance to visit Johannesburg will almost certainly have enjoyed Paula's hospitality, for Paula was a compulsive hostess who put the same attention to detail, ebullience and care into her role as hostess as she seemed to put into every one of her endeavors. For those of us who want to continue Paula's work on concept formation, Paula is a hard act to follow. But she was one of us. Of course, that means that without her we are all one fewer: our work is going to necessarily be poorer for her passing. -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From carolmacdon@gmail.com Wed Aug 13 10:25:07 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:25:07 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Memorial tribute for Paula Towsey Message-ID: Hello Colleagues Here is the text which was presented at the funeral of Paula Towsey - a force in CHAT - on 12th August 2014: Tribute from the XMCA Community Paula Towsey was one of us. In fact, she was one of a very few of us who have not just read Vygotsky's major work, *Thinking and Speech, *but tried to get inside it, to bring it back to life and remake it with living and breathing, thinking and speaking children of our own times. None of us in the XMCA community outside of Africa know much about her life before she began her research. We have heard that she was a teacher, that she rejected teaching under apartheid and spent at least part of her career in exile in Botswana, and that somewhere along the way she must have learned lots about music and South African wine and Milan Kundera and wildlife. But mostly we know that she knew an awful lot about one chapter of Vygotsky's book, the chapter which describes a series of experiments in which children are encourage to form concepts in order to solve a puzzle. In Vygotsky's original experiment in the Soviet Union of the 1920s, the children used blocks of various sizes and colours. More playfully, Paula used a set of trolls, which varied in hairiness and whether they were right handed or left handed to extend these experiments. But Paula also went to unbelievable lengths to recover in the most unimaginable detail all the conditions of Vygotsky's experiment all those years ago, and to replicate them in present-day South Africa. Even clue and every source, however remote, was tracked down and interrogated. Her success in reproducing Vygotsky's results in the completely different cultural and historical conditions of present-day South Africa is of considerable importance. For a postgraduate student to have achieved this is remarkable. And her passion for defending and advocating for the significance of these experiments, in the face of criticism from prominent figures in our community was outstanding. Her article on these experiments was published in MCA in 2009, and this paper ranks the *third highest* of any article in our journal for the number of times it has been downloaded. Several of us participated in the production of an on-line video, which Paula directed, discussing these experiments. She used PowerPoint to create a vehicle for Mike Cole and David Kellogg to explain their interpretation of these experiments in dialogue with each other and her. Her role as producer involved the collection of graphics and a voice over which gave the otherwise amateur production a BBC quality which was striking. And showing the same spirit that she had displayed in chasing down the details of Vygotsky's experiments in Soviet Russia, a glitch which Paula came across in combining the audio files with PowerPoint - an imperfection which thousands before must have tolerated - she chased down and badgered MicroSoft until they put it right. Any of us who had the chance to visit Johannesburg will almost certainly have enjoyed Paula's hospitality, for Paula was a compulsive hostess who put the same attention to detail, ebullience and care into her role as hostess as she seemed to put into every one of her endeavors. For those of us who want to continue Paula's work on concept formation, Paula is a hard act to follow. But she was one of us. Of course, that means that without her we are all one fewer: our work is going to necessarily be poorer for her passing. -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From goncu@uic.edu Wed Aug 13 11:38:27 2014 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:38:27 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memorial tribute for Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ab6c9868f715912f4d8404243d3e7da.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Thank you for sharing this beautiful tribute for a life well lived with us. Much appreciated. Artin On Wed, August 13, 2014 12:25 pm, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Hello Colleagues > > Here is the text which was presented at the funeral of Paula Towsey - a > force in CHAT - on 12th August 2014: > > > Tribute from the XMCA Community > > > > Paula Towsey was one of us. In fact, she was one of a very few of us who > have not just read Vygotsky's major work, *Thinking and Speech, *but tried > to get inside it, to bring it back to life and remake it with living and > breathing, thinking and speaking children of our own times. None of us in > the XMCA community outside of Africa know much about her life before she > began her research. We have heard that she was a teacher, that she > rejected > teaching under apartheid and spent at least part of her career in exile in > Botswana, and that somewhere along the way she must have learned lots > about > music and South African wine and Milan Kundera and wildlife. > > > > But mostly we know that she knew an awful lot about one chapter of > Vygotsky's book, the chapter which describes a series of experiments in > which children are encourage to form concepts in order to solve a puzzle. > In Vygotsky's original experiment in the Soviet Union of the 1920s, the > children used blocks of various sizes and colours. More playfully, Paula > used a set of trolls, which varied in hairiness and whether they were > right > handed or left handed to extend these experiments. But Paula also went to > unbelievable lengths to recover in the most unimaginable detail all the > conditions of Vygotsky's experiment all those years ago, and to replicate > them in present-day South Africa. Even clue and every source, however > remote, was tracked down and interrogated. Her success in reproducing > Vygotsky's results in the completely different cultural and historical > conditions of present-day South Africa is of considerable importance. For > a > postgraduate student to have achieved this is remarkable. And her passion > for defending and advocating for the significance of these experiments, in > the face of criticism from prominent figures in our community was > outstanding. Her article on these experiments was published in MCA in > 2009, > and this paper ranks the *third highest* of any article in our journal for > the number of times it has been downloaded. > > > > Several of us participated in the production of an on-line video, which > Paula directed, discussing these experiments. She used PowerPoint to > create > a vehicle for Mike Cole and David Kellogg to explain their interpretation > of these experiments in dialogue with each other and her. Her role as > producer involved the collection of graphics and a voice over which gave > the otherwise amateur production a BBC quality which was striking. And > showing the same spirit that she had displayed in chasing down the details > of Vygotsky's experiments in Soviet Russia, a glitch which Paula came > across in combining the audio files with PowerPoint - an imperfection > which > thousands before must have tolerated - she chased down and badgered > MicroSoft until they put it right. > > > > Any of us who had the chance to visit Johannesburg will almost certainly > have enjoyed Paula's hospitality, for Paula was a compulsive hostess who > put the same attention to detail, ebullience and care into her role as > hostess as she seemed to put into every one of her endeavors. > > > > For those of us who want to continue Paula's work on concept formation, > Paula is a hard act to follow. But she was one of us. Of course, that > means > that without her we are all one fewer: our work is going to necessarily be > poorer for her passing. > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From goncu@uic.edu Wed Aug 13 11:38:27 2014 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:38:27 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Memorial tribute for Paula Towsey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ab6c9868f715912f4d8404243d3e7da.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Thank you for sharing this beautiful tribute for a life well lived with us. Much appreciated. Artin On Wed, August 13, 2014 12:25 pm, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Hello Colleagues > > Here is the text which was presented at the funeral of Paula Towsey - a > force in CHAT - on 12th August 2014: > > > Tribute from the XMCA Community > > > > Paula Towsey was one of us. In fact, she was one of a very few of us who > have not just read Vygotsky's major work, *Thinking and Speech, *but tried > to get inside it, to bring it back to life and remake it with living and > breathing, thinking and speaking children of our own times. None of us in > the XMCA community outside of Africa know much about her life before she > began her research. We have heard that she was a teacher, that she > rejected > teaching under apartheid and spent at least part of her career in exile in > Botswana, and that somewhere along the way she must have learned lots > about > music and South African wine and Milan Kundera and wildlife. > > > > But mostly we know that she knew an awful lot about one chapter of > Vygotsky's book, the chapter which describes a series of experiments in > which children are encourage to form concepts in order to solve a puzzle. > In Vygotsky's original experiment in the Soviet Union of the 1920s, the > children used blocks of various sizes and colours. More playfully, Paula > used a set of trolls, which varied in hairiness and whether they were > right > handed or left handed to extend these experiments. But Paula also went to > unbelievable lengths to recover in the most unimaginable detail all the > conditions of Vygotsky's experiment all those years ago, and to replicate > them in present-day South Africa. Even clue and every source, however > remote, was tracked down and interrogated. Her success in reproducing > Vygotsky's results in the completely different cultural and historical > conditions of present-day South Africa is of considerable importance. For > a > postgraduate student to have achieved this is remarkable. And her passion > for defending and advocating for the significance of these experiments, in > the face of criticism from prominent figures in our community was > outstanding. Her article on these experiments was published in MCA in > 2009, > and this paper ranks the *third highest* of any article in our journal for > the number of times it has been downloaded. > > > > Several of us participated in the production of an on-line video, which > Paula directed, discussing these experiments. She used PowerPoint to > create > a vehicle for Mike Cole and David Kellogg to explain their interpretation > of these experiments in dialogue with each other and her. Her role as > producer involved the collection of graphics and a voice over which gave > the otherwise amateur production a BBC quality which was striking. And > showing the same spirit that she had displayed in chasing down the details > of Vygotsky's experiments in Soviet Russia, a glitch which Paula came > across in combining the audio files with PowerPoint - an imperfection > which > thousands before must have tolerated - she chased down and badgered > MicroSoft until they put it right. > > > > Any of us who had the chance to visit Johannesburg will almost certainly > have enjoyed Paula's hospitality, for Paula was a compulsive hostess who > put the same attention to detail, ebullience and care into her role as > hostess as she seemed to put into every one of her endeavors. > > > > For those of us who want to continue Paula's work on concept formation, > Paula is a hard act to follow. But she was one of us. Of course, that > means > that without her we are all one fewer: our work is going to necessarily be > poorer for her passing. > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From smago@uga.edu Wed Aug 13 12:35:12 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 19:35:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Deadline extended for Special Issue CFP: Writing and Ritual, Faith Communities, and Religious Practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09a33a44a0b5467fbd83de685420fd54@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> From: writcomm Written Communication [mailto:writcomm@umn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 1:37 PM Subject: Deadline extended for Special Issue CFP: Writing and Ritual, Faith Communities, and Religious Practices Dear Editorial Board: I have again attached the CFP for a Special Issue on Writing and Ritual, Faith Communities, and Religious Practices. If you know of scholars working on pieces for submission, you might spread the word that the deadline has been extended to Sept. 10, 2014. Thanks for your help. Also, I am going to be needing subject matter experts to review in this area and I'd appreciate suggestions of potential reviewers. Christina Haas Editor, Written Communication -- Written Communication University of Minnesota College of Liberal Arts Department of Writing Studies follow us on twitter: @writtencomm ***CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE*** The information in this message and any attachments is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents is without authorization and is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, immediately notify the sender and delete this copy from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WC_SI_CFP_April2014-1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 113344 bytes Desc: WC_SI_CFP_April2014-1.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140813/c38e08ab/attachment.pdf From ewall@umich.edu Thu Aug 14 08:35:03 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:35:03 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [Sysfling] The first issue of Language and Sociocultural Theory is published References: <827082319FCC4AE483D04B258B734B55@ccspc> Message-ID: <84BD13C0-80F6-4A9E-9AA7-433BCF7D6047@umich.edu> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Valerie Hall" > Subject: [Sysfling] The first issue of Language and Sociocultural Theory is published > Date: August 13, 2014 11:23:43 AM CDT > To: > > The first issue of Language and Sociocultural Theory is published > > Equinox is pleased to announce the publication of the first issue of the new journal Language and Sociocultural Theory. This international journal is devoted to the study of language from the perspective of Vygotskian sociocultural theory. The editor is James P. Lantolf, The Pennsylvania State University. There will be two issues per volume year. > > More information including the contents of the latest issue and information on subscribing can be found at the journal website: > > https://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/LST > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sysfling mailing list > Sysfling@cardiff.ac.uk > https://mailman.cf.ac.uk/mailman/listinfo/sysfling From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Aug 15 15:34:35 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:34:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Faculty opening at Vanderbilt for Assistant Professor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rittle-Johnson, Bethany Date: Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 2:44 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Faculty opening at Vanderbilt for Assistant Professor To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" The Vanderbilt University Department of Psychology and Human Development is seeking an outstanding psychologist for a tenure-track position at the assistant professor rank in the area of *COGNITIVE SCIENCE OF LEARNING AND DEVELOPMENT (CSLD)*. The department is composed of internationally recognized scholars who work to increase the understanding and application of basic psychological processes related to the learning and development of cognition, behavior, and emotion in natural contexts. CSLD is a new focus area combining strengths in cognitive science, developmental science, and cognitive neuroscience. We seek candidates whose research addresses common themes in our department through interdisciplinary research focused on basic cognitive processes that have implications for learning in formal or informal settings or for understanding cognitive change in ecological context. Candidates whose research focuses on learning processes, conceptual change, educational psychology, cognitive neuroscience, and/or technological supports for learning will receive special consideration. The CSLD area consists of 8-10 full-time faculty whose strengths are complemented by professors in other units in the university, including the Department of Psychology, Educational Neuroscience, Special Education, and Teaching & Learning. Primary responsibilities of this faculty position include establishing an active program of research, teaching and mentoring undergraduate and graduate students, and service to the department, university, and the field. We especially encourage applications from underrepresented minorities. For information about the faculty, department, and interdisciplinary opportunities, see http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/departments/psych/index.php . Applicants should send a brief cover letter, curriculum vitae, copies of up to 3 representative publications, and a document describing research and teaching interests to CSLDsearch@vanderbilt.edu . Three letters of reference should also be sent to this email address with the applicant?s last name and the word ?recommendation? in the subject line, or to the following address: CSLD Search Committee Psychology and Human Development Vanderbilt University, 0552 GPC 230 Appleton Place Nashville, TN 37203-5721 To receive full consideration, applications should arrive by October 15, 2014, though the search will remain open until the position has been filled. Vanderbilt University is an affirmative action/equal opportunity employer. -------------------- Bethany Rittle-Johnson Associate Professor Developmental Sciences Program Head Psychology and Human Development Vanderbilt University Office: 219B Hobbs Phone: 615-322-8301 Mail: 230 Appleton Place, Peabody #552, Nashville, TN 37203 _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From smago@uga.edu Sat Aug 16 06:26:49 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 13:26:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] what-is-the-most-blatant-lie-taught-through-pakistan-textbooks Message-ID: <6ed68df9c4ee4a60bb4180e0244f00ab@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> http://www.dawn.com/news/1125484/what-is-the-most-blatant-lie-taught-through-pakistan-textbooks One of my Pakistani students send me this interesting piece on how history is taught (or mis-taught) in Pakistan. Similar work has been done by Jim Loewen on American history books in Lies My Teacher Told Me, which is now a bit old but I suspect still on target (I haven?t read any US history textbooks in a while, but know that their construction is highly ideological). If you?re interested in such things (see also Jim Wertsch, Revising Russian History, http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2012_11.dir/pdfXHJbi94oHi.pdf), this page is pretty interesting, and also might help inform you (as it did me) about Pakistan?s complex history. p From agn3@lehigh.edu Sat Aug 16 07:11:46 2014 From: agn3@lehigh.edu (Ageliki Nicolopoulou) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 10:11:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] A request for assistance Message-ID: Dear XMCA community, I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on the XMCA list has it at their fingertips. I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, there are some people who might be willing to concede that more child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school readiness. My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in articles, so I'm trying to find one. *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone actually SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. Thanks, Ageliki Nicolopoulou ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About Departmental Webpage: http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 From goncu@uic.edu Sat Aug 16 07:50:24 2014 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 09:50:24 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8841f4130053bd161a0b13a5be7c7fa1.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Ageliki-- Did you check the early work by Breiter and Engelman? Also, there was a debate between, I believe, Breiter and Connie (Kamii) about whether or not you can teach conservation directly to children and what it means for them. This related to teaching "disadvantaged children." I know it is published somewhere... All the best, ag On Sat, August 16, 2014 9:11 am, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > Dear XMCA community, > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on > the > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > readiness. > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone > actually > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > Thanks, > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > ________________ > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > Departmental Webpage: http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From glassman.13@osu.edu Sat Aug 16 07:56:08 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 14:56:08 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: <8841f4130053bd161a0b13a5be7c7fa1.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: , <8841f4130053bd161a0b13a5be7c7fa1.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9026B0A@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Ageliki, I also remember a debate between Rheta DeVries and Russell Gersten - constructivist vs. Direct (distar) which actually got quite personal. Here is an article from Gersten about work in an urban school district in Dallas I think. Not specifically pre-school and there and it is of course couched in code words (urban) - but as close as anything I can remember. Gersten, R. M., Carnine, D. W., & Williams, P. B. (1982). Measuring implementation of a structured educational model in an urban school district: An observational approach. Educational Evaluation and Policy Analysis, 67-79. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Goncu, Artin [goncu@uic.edu] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 10:50 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance Ageliki-- Did you check the early work by Breiter and Engelman? Also, there was a debate between, I believe, Breiter and Connie (Kamii) about whether or not you can teach conservation directly to children and what it means for them. This related to teaching "disadvantaged children." I know it is published somewhere... All the best, ag On Sat, August 16, 2014 9:11 am, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > Dear XMCA community, > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on > the > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > readiness. > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone > actually > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > Thanks, > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > ________________ > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > Departmental Webpage: http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From carolmacdon@gmail.com Sat Aug 16 07:59:20 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 16:59:20 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ageliki There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems for the Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's was that this was the best way to teach working class children. But this was formal instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what the materials look like. Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and so on, and this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and information books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I can do, but I look forward to other views. Bereiter.. Carol On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > Dear XMCA community, > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on the > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > readiness. > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone actually > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > Thanks, > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > ________________ > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > Departmental Webpage: http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From blantonwe@gmail.com Sat Aug 16 13:24:29 2014 From: blantonwe@gmail.com (William Blanton) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 13:24:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ageliki, You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. Attached is two bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a look an Ken Goodman's argument against direct instruction. Another interesting challenge against direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather than basic liter skills. BB On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald wrote: > Hi Ageliki > > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems for the > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's was that > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this was formal > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what the > materials look like. > > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and so on, and > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and information > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I can do, > but I look forward to other views. > > Bereiter.. > > Carol > > > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > > > Dear XMCA community, > > > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on > the > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > > readiness. > > > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites > that > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone > actually > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > > > Thanks, > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > > > ________________ > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > > Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > > Departmental Webpage: http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Direct Instruction Bib.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 717687 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140816/a8356d0c/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Direct Inst Bib 2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 52143 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140816/a8356d0c/attachment-0003.pdf From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 16 17:38:01 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:38:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot of the direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is useless if not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the loquacious middle class. There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some public presentation. mike On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton wrote: > Hi Ageliki, > > You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. Attached is two > bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a look an Ken Goodman's > argument against direct instruction. Another interesting challenge against > direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather than > basic liter skills. > > BB > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald > wrote: > > > Hi Ageliki > > > > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems for the > > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's was that > > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this was > formal > > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved > > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what the > > materials look like. > > > > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and so on, > and > > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and > information > > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I can do, > > but I look forward to other views. > > > > Bereiter.. > > > > Carol > > > > > > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: > > > > > Dear XMCA community, > > > > > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on > > the > > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > > > > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example > of > > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early > child > > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out > by > > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, > didactic > > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > > > > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > > > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. > However, > > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > > > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't > work > > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else > is, > > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > > > readiness. > > > > > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and > they > > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > > > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread > and > > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites > > that > > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations > in > > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > > > > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone > > actually > > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, > and > > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe > them) > > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but > are > > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > > > > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > > > > > ________________ > > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > > > Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > > > Departmental Webpage: > http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > Developmental psycholinguist > > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 16 17:43:10 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 17:43:10 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmm. Its not on the front page. http://www.nifdi.org/about-di mike' On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 5:38 PM, mike cole wrote: > I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot of the > direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is useless if > not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the > loquacious middle class. > > There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some public > presentation. > mike > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton > wrote: > >> Hi Ageliki, >> >> You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. Attached is >> two >> bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a look an Ken Goodman's >> argument against direct instruction. Another interesting challenge against >> direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather than >> basic liter skills. >> >> BB >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald >> wrote: >> >> > Hi Ageliki >> > >> > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems for the >> > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's was >> that >> > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this was >> formal >> > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved >> > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what the >> > materials look like. >> > >> > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and so on, >> and >> > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and >> information >> > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I can >> do, >> > but I look forward to other views. >> > >> > Bereiter.. >> > >> > Carol >> > >> > >> > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou wrote: >> > >> > > Dear XMCA community, >> > > >> > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone >> on >> > the >> > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. >> > > >> > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and >> > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an >> example of >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early >> child >> > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed >> out by >> > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, >> didactic >> > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. >> > > >> > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching >> > > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. >> However, >> > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young >> > > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't >> work >> > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct >> > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else >> is, >> > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school >> > > readiness. >> > > >> > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and >> they >> > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest >> > > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread >> and >> > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing >> to >> > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about >> > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites >> > that >> > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations >> in >> > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. >> > > >> > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone >> > actually >> > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, >> and >> > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe >> them) >> > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but >> are >> > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more >> > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* >> > > >> > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> > > >> > > ________________ >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies >> > > Personal Webpage: >> http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About >> > > Departmental Webpage: >> http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >> > Developmental psycholinguist >> > Academic, Researcher, and Editor >> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa >> > >> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Aug 16 19:26:54 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 11:26:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It seems to me that no straw man is really necessary here; there are very real proponents for the argument that so-called "child-centred" education privileges the rich and keeps working class kids in the dark about the unwritten gentleman's code that surrounds "humanistic" education. I'm one, but I think that Agelika has some more important adversaries. The first opponent to attack is Vygotsky. In his lecture on psychological development (in the untranslated "Foundations of Pedagogy"), he points out that children raised in orphanages do not develop speech as well as those who are raised in families, and he surmises that it is because that children use amongst each other is simply not as demanding as that which parents use. He also says that deaf children who are raised with siblings will not develop signing as well as those who are raised by deaf parents, and from this he concludes that ontogenesis is different from "natural" processes like ontogenesis and even sociogenesis, in that the final form of development has to be present and in interaction for development to take place. The second person to attack is Halliday (as well as Ruqaiya Hasan, Clare Painter, and the whole of the systemic-functional school). Influenced by Bernstein, they argued that "child-centred" forms of education supplied only implicit knowledge of register and genre which reinforced what middle class kids already knew, but was too implicit for kids not previously exposed to the genre at home. This argument was violently rejected by Labov (who I think did not really understand it). Curiously, though, nobody rejects the idea that when a child speaks a foreign language at home, they might need more explicit help with academic genres in school. The third person to attack is Gordon Wells, who demonstrated that differences in language surfaced already at three years old, and they were traceable to the quality of conversation that children were receiving at home. In particular, kids left with televisions or playing with younger siblings were at a definite disadvantage in comparison with children who were left with books and caring parents. This is somehow reminiscent of the recent furore over Amy Chua's book "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother". Its follow up "The Triple Package" is really about this issue as well. As usual, when there are such strong feelings on both sides, it is probable that both have something important to contribute. The real problem, and Agelika says, is that only one side is really being heard. For all its pleasant air of toleration, academic literature can be quite totalitarian. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. On 17 August 2014 09:43, mike cole wrote: > Hmmm. Its not on the front page. http://www.nifdi.org/about-di > mike' > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 5:38 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot of > the > > direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is useless > if > > not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the > > loquacious middle class. > > > > There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some public > > presentation. > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Ageliki, > >> > >> You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. Attached is > >> two > >> bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a look an Ken Goodman's > >> argument against direct instruction. Another interesting challenge > against > >> direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather than > >> basic liter skills. > >> > >> BB > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Ageliki > >> > > >> > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems for > the > >> > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's was > >> that > >> > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this was > >> formal > >> > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved > >> > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what the > >> > materials look like. > >> > > >> > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and so > on, > >> and > >> > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and > >> information > >> > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I can > >> do, > >> > but I look forward to other views. > >> > > >> > Bereiter.. > >> > > >> > Carol > >> > > >> > > >> > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: > >> > > >> > > Dear XMCA community, > >> > > > >> > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone > >> on > >> > the > >> > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > >> > > > >> > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling > and > >> > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an > >> example of > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early > >> child > >> > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed > >> out by > >> > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, > >> didactic > >> > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > >> > > > >> > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > >> > > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. > >> However, > >> > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > >> > > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't > >> work > >> > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need > direct > >> > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything > else > >> is, > >> > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > >> > > readiness. > >> > > > >> > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and > >> they > >> > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > >> > > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread > >> and > >> > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing > >> to > >> > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking > about > >> > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction > websites > >> > that > >> > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic > citations > >> in > >> > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > >> > > > >> > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone > >> > actually > >> > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, > play-based, > >> and > >> > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe > >> them) > >> > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but > >> are > >> > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need > more > >> > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > >> > > > >> > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> > > > >> > > ________________ > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > >> > > Personal Webpage: > >> http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > >> > > Departmental Webpage: > >> http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >> > Developmental psycholinguist > >> > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > >> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >> > > >> > > > > > From arips@optonline.net Sun Aug 17 07:02:06 2014 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:02:06 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the chapter researching-comparing the Bright Start curriculum (Vygotsky,Piagetian and Feuerstein based) vs various populations including first language as well as a DISTAR preschool curriculum. Avram Rips: Brooks, P. H. & Haywood, H. C. (2003). A preschool mediational context: The Bright Start curriculum. In A. S. S. Hoon, L. P. K. Hoo n, & O - S. Tan (Eds . ) , Mediated learning experience with children: Applications across contexts , 98 - 132. Singapore: McGraw - Hill Education (Asia). The Bright Start curriculum is described in the context of its theoretical base, with description of the curriculum itself and its teaching methods. Evaluative research is organized by questions, such as effects on scholastic aptitude (intelligence), effects on cognitive development, effects on motivation to learn, effects on subsequent school achievement. An appendix contains practical information: how to purchase the curriculum, training of teachers, trainers, non - English edition From dkirsh@lsu.edu Sun Aug 17 11:20:58 2014 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 18:20:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Email Format Conventions Message-ID: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> David, Thanks for your insightful post. In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes from use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change formats. Are there other reasons? David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:27 PM To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance It seems to me that no straw man is really necessary here; there are very real proponents for the argument that so-called "child-centred" education privileges the rich and keeps working class kids in the dark about the unwritten gentleman's code that surrounds "humanistic" education. I'm one, but I think that Agelika has some more important adversaries. The first opponent to attack is Vygotsky. In his lecture on psychological development (in the untranslated "Foundations of Pedagogy"), he points out that children raised in orphanages do not develop speech as well as those who are raised in families, and he surmises that it is because that children use amongst each other is simply not as demanding as that which parents use. He also says that deaf children who are raised with siblings will not develop signing as well as those who are raised by deaf parents, and from this he concludes that ontogenesis is different from "natural" processes like ontogenesis and even sociogenesis, in that the final form of development has to be present and in interaction for development to take place. The second person to attack is Halliday (as well as Ruqaiya Hasan, Clare Painter, and the whole of the systemic-functional school). Influenced by Bernstein, they argued that "child-centred" forms of education supplied only implicit knowledge of register and genre which reinforced what middle class kids already knew, but was too implicit for kids not previously exposed to the genre at home. This argument was violently rejected by Labov (who I think did not really understand it). Curiously, though, nobody rejects the idea that when a child speaks a foreign language at home, they might need more explicit help with academic genres in school. The third person to attack is Gordon Wells, who demonstrated that differences in language surfaced already at three years old, and they were traceable to the quality of conversation that children were receiving at home. In particular, kids left with televisions or playing with younger siblings were at a definite disadvantage in comparison with children who were left with books and caring parents. This is somehow reminiscent of the recent furore over Amy Chua's book "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother". Its follow up "The Triple Package" is really about this issue as well. As usual, when there are such strong feelings on both sides, it is probable that both have something important to contribute. The real problem, and Agelika says, is that only one side is really being heard. For all its pleasant air of toleration, academic literature can be quite totalitarian. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. On 17 August 2014 09:43, mike cole wrote: > Hmmm. Its not on the front page. http://www.nifdi.org/about-di > mike' > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 5:38 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot > > of > the > > direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is > > useless > if > > not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the > > loquacious middle class. > > > > There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some > > public presentation. > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton > > > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Ageliki, > >> > >> You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. > >> Attached is two bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a > >> look an Ken Goodman's argument against direct instruction. Another > >> interesting challenge > against > >> direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather > >> than basic liter skills. > >> > >> BB > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Ageliki > >> > > >> > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems > >> > for > the > >> > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's > >> > was > >> that > >> > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this > >> > was > >> formal > >> > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved > >> > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what > >> > the materials look like. > >> > > >> > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and > >> > so > on, > >> and > >> > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and > >> information > >> > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I > >> > can > >> do, > >> > but I look forward to other views. > >> > > >> > Bereiter.. > >> > > >> > Carol > >> > > >> > > >> > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: > >> > > >> > > Dear XMCA community, > >> > > > >> > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether > >> > > someone > >> on > >> > the > >> > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > >> > > > >> > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's > >> > > storytelling > and > >> > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an > >> example of > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to > >> > > early > >> child > >> > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting > >> > > squeezed > >> out by > >> > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize > >> > > teacher-centered, > >> didactic > >> > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > >> > > > >> > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic > >> > > teaching practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. > >> However, > >> > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for > >> > > young children from educated middle class families ... but that > >> > > they won't > >> work > >> > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need > direct > >> > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them > >> > > anything > else > >> is, > >> > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for > >> > > school readiness. > >> > > > >> > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think > >> > > that, and > >> they > >> > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that > >> > > rest implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very > >> > > widespread > >> and > >> > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be > >> > > willing > >> to > >> > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking > about > >> > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction > websites > >> > that > >> > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic > citations > >> in > >> > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > >> > > > >> > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where > >> > > someone > >> > actually > >> > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, > play-based, > >> and > >> > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually > >> > > describe > >> them) > >> > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class > >> > > homes, but > >> are > >> > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who > >> > > need > more > >> > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > >> > > > >> > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> > > > >> > > ________________ > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Personal Webpage: > >> http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > >> > > Departmental Webpage: > >> http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > >> > Developmental psycholinguist > >> > Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: > >> > Department of Linguistics, Unisa > >> > > >> > > > > > From ewall@umich.edu Sun Aug 17 11:38:16 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 13:38:16 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: David K. A minor point, but formatting may be more of the responsibility of the recipient than the sender. My email browser (Apple Mail) does not seem, in this case, to see the >" as such and indents the flow with vertical line (however, this may be unpleasant to some). At least that is what it shows at present. Ed Wall On Aug 17, 2014, at 1:20 PM, David H Kirshner wrote: > David, > Thanks for your insightful post. > In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes from use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. > That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). > I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change formats. > Are there other reasons? > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:27 PM > To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance > > It seems to me that no straw man is really necessary here; there are very real proponents for the argument that so-called "child-centred" education privileges the rich and keeps working class kids in the dark about the unwritten gentleman's code that surrounds "humanistic" education. I'm one, but I think that Agelika has some more important adversaries. > > The first opponent to attack is Vygotsky. In his lecture on psychological development (in the untranslated "Foundations of Pedagogy"), he points out that children raised in orphanages do not develop speech as well as those who are raised in families, and he surmises that it is because that children use amongst each other is simply not as demanding as that which parents use. He also says that deaf children who are raised with siblings will not develop signing as well as those who are raised by deaf parents, and from this he concludes that ontogenesis is different from "natural" > processes like ontogenesis and even sociogenesis, in that the final form of development has to be present and in interaction for development to take place. > > The second person to attack is Halliday (as well as Ruqaiya Hasan, Clare Painter, and the whole of the systemic-functional school). Influenced by Bernstein, they argued that "child-centred" forms of education supplied only implicit knowledge of register and genre which reinforced what middle class kids already knew, but was too implicit for kids not previously exposed to the genre at home. This argument was violently rejected by Labov (who I think did not really understand it). Curiously, though, nobody rejects the idea that when a child speaks a foreign language at home, they might need more explicit help with academic genres in school. > > The third person to attack is Gordon Wells, who demonstrated that differences in language surfaced already at three years old, and they were traceable to the quality of conversation that children were receiving at home. In particular, kids left with televisions or playing with younger siblings were at a definite disadvantage in comparison with children who were left with books and caring parents. > > This is somehow reminiscent of the recent furore over Amy Chua's book "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother". Its follow up "The Triple Package" is really about this issue as well. As usual, when there are such strong feelings on both sides, it is probable that both have something important to contribute. The real problem, and Agelika says, is that only one side is really being heard. For all its pleasant air of toleration, academic literature can be quite totalitarian. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > > > > > On 17 August 2014 09:43, mike cole wrote: > >> Hmmm. Its not on the front page. http://www.nifdi.org/about-di >> mike' >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 5:38 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot >>> of >> the >>> direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is >>> useless >> if >>> not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the >>> loquacious middle class. >>> >>> There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some >>> public presentation. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ageliki, >>>> >>>> You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. >>>> Attached is two bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a >>>> look an Ken Goodman's argument against direct instruction. Another >>>> interesting challenge >> against >>>> direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather >>>> than basic liter skills. >>>> >>>> BB >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Ageliki >>>>> >>>>> There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems >>>>> for >> the >>>>> Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's >>>>> was >>>> that >>>>> this was the best way to teach working class children. But this >>>>> was >>>> formal >>>>> instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved >>>>> downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what >>>>> the materials look like. >>>>> >>>>> Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and >>>>> so >> on, >>>> and >>>>> this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and >>>> information >>>>> books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I >>>>> can >>>> do, >>>>> but I look forward to other views. >>>>> >>>>> Bereiter.. >>>>> >>>>> Carol >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear XMCA community, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether >>>>>> someone >>>> on >>>>> the >>>>>> XMCA list has it at their fingertips. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's >>>>>> storytelling >> and >>>>>> story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an >>>> example of >>>>>> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to >>>>>> early >>>> child >>>>>> education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting >>>>>> squeezed >>>> out by >>>>>> preschool practices that exclusively emphasize >>>>>> teacher-centered, >>>> didactic >>>>>> transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. >>>>>> >>>>>> A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic >>>>>> teaching practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. >>>> However, >>>>>> there are some people who might be willing to concede that more >>>>>> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for >>>>>> young children from educated middle class families ... but that >>>>>> they won't >>>> work >>>>>> for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need >> direct >>>>>> instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them >>>>>> anything >> else >>>> is, >>>>>> at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for >>>>>> school readiness. >>>>>> >>>>>> My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think >>>>>> that, and >>>> they >>>>>> say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that >>>>>> rest implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very >>>>>> widespread >>>> and >>>>>> influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be >>>>>> willing >>>> to >>>>>> actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking >> about >>>>>> academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction >> websites >>>>> that >>>>>> say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic >> citations >>>> in >>>>>> articles, so I'm trying to find one. >>>>>> >>>>>> *So does anyone out there know of any published work where >>>>>> someone >>>>> actually >>>>>> SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, >> play-based, >>>> and >>>>>> constructivist preschool practices (however they actually >>>>>> describe >>>> them) >>>>>> might be OK for young children from educated middle-class >>>>>> homes, but >>>> are >>>>>> useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who >>>>>> need >> more >>>>>> teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* >>>>>> >>>>>> I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Ageliki Nicolopoulou >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________ >>>>>> Ageliki Nicolopoulou >>>>>> Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Personal Webpage: >>>> http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About >>>>>> Departmental Webpage: >>>> http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >>>>> Developmental psycholinguist >>>>> Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: >>>>> Department of Linguistics, Unisa >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 17 12:34:21 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 12:34:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: David KEL What sort of organization of poor kids' education do your non-straw people recommend? Where might we see it in action today? Is it the strategy advocated by Engelmann and the DI movement? If not, how does it differ? A related question. Is the Vivian Paley curriculum that Ageliki has done extensive research on improperly conceived? So far as I know, no one in this discussion has advocated free play for the poor. Not even free straw! I am way behind the discussion and on the road, but at least free wi-fi in crowded airports allows a few minutes to read and peck at a keyboard! Mike On Sunday, August 17, 2014, David H Kirshner wrote: > David, > Thanks for your insightful post. > In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was > faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes from > use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of > response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. > That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more > authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior > text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, > and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to > fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). > I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who > use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps > functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change > formats. > Are there other reasons? > David > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:27 PM > To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance > > It seems to me that no straw man is really necessary here; there are very > real proponents for the argument that so-called "child-centred" education > privileges the rich and keeps working class kids in the dark about the > unwritten gentleman's code that surrounds "humanistic" education. I'm one, > but I think that Agelika has some more important adversaries. > > The first opponent to attack is Vygotsky. In his lecture on psychological > development (in the untranslated "Foundations of Pedagogy"), he points out > that children raised in orphanages do not develop speech as well as those > who are raised in families, and he surmises that it is because that > children use amongst each other is simply not as demanding as that which > parents use. He also says that deaf children who are raised with siblings > will not develop signing as well as those who are raised by deaf parents, > and from this he concludes that ontogenesis is different from "natural" > processes like ontogenesis and even sociogenesis, in that the final form > of development has to be present and in interaction for development to take > place. > > The second person to attack is Halliday (as well as Ruqaiya Hasan, Clare > Painter, and the whole of the systemic-functional school). Influenced by > Bernstein, they argued that "child-centred" forms of education supplied > only implicit knowledge of register and genre which reinforced what middle > class kids already knew, but was too implicit for kids not previously > exposed to the genre at home. This argument was violently rejected by Labov > (who I think did not really understand it). Curiously, though, nobody > rejects the idea that when a child speaks a foreign language at home, they > might need more explicit help with academic genres in school. > > The third person to attack is Gordon Wells, who demonstrated that > differences in language surfaced already at three years old, and they were > traceable to the quality of conversation that children were receiving at > home. In particular, kids left with televisions or playing with younger > siblings were at a definite disadvantage in comparison with children who > were left with books and caring parents. > > This is somehow reminiscent of the recent furore over Amy Chua's book > "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother". Its follow up "The Triple Package" is > really about this issue as well. As usual, when there are such strong > feelings on both sides, it is probable that both have something important > to contribute. The real problem, and Agelika says, is that only one side is > really being heard. For all its pleasant air of toleration, academic > literature can be quite totalitarian. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. > > > > > On 17 August 2014 09:43, mike cole > > wrote: > > > Hmmm. Its not on the front page. http://www.nifdi.org/about-di > > mike' > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 5:38 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot > > > of > > the > > > direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is > > > useless > > if > > > not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the > > > loquacious middle class. > > > > > > There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some > > > public presentation. > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Ageliki, > > >> > > >> You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. > > >> Attached is two bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a > > >> look an Ken Goodman's argument against direct instruction. Another > > >> interesting challenge > > against > > >> direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather > > >> than basic liter skills. > > >> > > >> BB > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald > > >> > > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Hi Ageliki > > >> > > > >> > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems > > >> > for > > the > > >> > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's > > >> > was > > >> that > > >> > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this > > >> > was > > >> formal > > >> > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved > > >> > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what > > >> > the materials look like. > > >> > > > >> > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and > > >> > so > > on, > > >> and > > >> > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and > > >> information > > >> > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I > > >> > can > > >> do, > > >> > but I look forward to other views. > > >> > > > >> > Bereiter.. > > >> > > > >> > Carol > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Dear XMCA community, > > >> > > > > >> > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether > > >> > > someone > > >> on > > >> > the > > >> > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > >> > > > > >> > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's > > >> > > storytelling > > and > > >> > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an > > >> example of > > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to > > >> > > early > > >> child > > >> > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting > > >> > > squeezed > > >> out by > > >> > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize > > >> > > teacher-centered, > > >> didactic > > >> > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > >> > > > > >> > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic > > >> > > teaching practices into preschool education is a good thing in > general. > > >> However, > > >> > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for > > >> > > young children from educated middle class families ... but that > > >> > > they won't > > >> work > > >> > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need > > direct > > >> > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them > > >> > > anything > > else > > >> is, > > >> > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for > > >> > > school readiness. > > >> > > > > >> > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think > > >> > > that, and > > >> they > > >> > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that > > >> > > rest implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very > > >> > > widespread > > >> and > > >> > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be > > >> > > willing > > >> to > > >> > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking > > about > > >> > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction > > websites > > >> > that > > >> > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic > > citations > > >> in > > >> > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > >> > > > > >> > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where > > >> > > someone > > >> > actually > > >> > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, > > play-based, > > >> and > > >> > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually > > >> > > describe > > >> them) > > >> > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class > > >> > > homes, but > > >> are > > >> > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who > > >> > > need > > more > > >> > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > >> > > > > >> > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > >> > > > > >> > > Thanks, > > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > >> > > > > >> > > ________________ > > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > >> > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Personal Webpage: > > >> http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About > > >> > > Departmental Webpage: > > >> http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > > >> > Developmental psycholinguist > > >> > Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: > > >> > Department of Linguistics, Unisa > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Aug 17 14:54:22 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 06:54:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: (I have the 'plain text mode' set on this. Hope it works! Now if only I could get it to proofread my posts a little better....) As I understood it, Ageliki's request for assistance was actually request for assistance in writing an article. I hope that she is looking for a serious theoretical argument. This is the sort of argument we regularly have on this list. For example, we had a number of people writing in from Australia to defend the use of direct instruction methods with Aboriginal kids not too long ago. I remember this well because I took the other side, AGAINST Engelmann and company, but one of my graduate students was sufficiently impressed to try to design thesis work around Engelmann's work. I haven't changed my position (and I'm very pleased to report that my grad student eventually abandoned Engelmann's work in some disgust). But the problem that Ageliki has brought us is really more interesting than Engelmann, DI and neobehaviorism. Ageliki says that it's hard to find any good, serious literature arguing, in a pre-school context, that more formal, or in Bernsteinian terms, strongly framed and strongly classified, curricula will help overcome the apparent problems that working class kids (but not middle class kids) have in school. On the one hand, there IS such a litterature: this is in fact the argument that took place between Bernstein and Labov, and later between genre based teaching based on Halliday, Christie, Martin, Painter, and Hasan and what is called, in the USA, "Academic Literacies", based on the work of Labov, Brian Street, the New London Group, and also, more indirectly, on the work of Scribner and Cole in Liberia. But on the other hand, Ageliki's right: it IS hard to find literature which takes the Bernsteinian argument seriously, and it's worth discussing why this should be. Let me take the first hand by the hand first. Mike wants to know if there was any non-DI teaching method used in a preschool context which is based on strongly framed and strongly classified knowledge. There was and there is. First of all, the "Headstart" programme, for example, was an explicit attempt to do exactly what Ageliki is talking about--as the name suggests, the work that middle class kids do in first grade was introduced to working class kids and minorities in kindergarten, in order to give them a head start. The problem for Ageliki is that the "Headstart" programme, widespread and successful, was not really theorized beyond that very simple idea (no Vygotsky and no Halliday). So my suggestion would be to look at genre based teaching in Australia, particularly as written about by Robert Veel, David Rose, Clare Painter, Frances Christie, and above all Beverly Derewianka. Interestingly, the backlash against genre based teaching in Australia was led by Engelmann and DI and not by Academic Literacies. Genre based teaching is very explicitly based on the Bernsteinian argument: a mismatch between the language of home and the language of school is going to occur for working class children but not for middle class children. Because their parents work, working class kids tend to play with each other rather than with their parents. They also spend more time with television and less time with books, with the result that visiographic modes of thinking are more highly developed than symbolic ones. Therefore, middle class kids will find it much much easier to work with "implicit" language norms than working class children, and working class children will benefit from explicit instruction in what a particular academic genre looks like (e.g. writing a description of how beans sprout instead of simply telling a story about it), for the same reason that kids coming from foreign language backgrounds benefit from explicit instruction in the grammar and vocabulary of English. This is, as I understand it, the argument that Ageliki is actually looking for, and it is indeed, as Mike wants to know, a well worked out teaching method. The more serious contrary argument is essentially a naturalistic one. It is that language knowledge is always in the final analysis "knowledge how" rather than "knowledge that". So by introducing a separate, "declarative knowledge" stage, we are actually delaying the progress of working class kids towards naturalizing knowledge of academic genre and producing a kind of remediation which will mire them in a game of catch up. The "Academic Literacies" argument, therefore, is that genre based teaching places too much stress on language, too much stress on text, too much stress on product, and the stress should rather be on practices. Even if we accept that different practices can lead to different ulitmate products (i.e. restricted codes can lead to non-academic genres instead of the academic genres that we are trying to teach), we must also accept that at times different practices can also lead to the same product, and this is essentially the argument that people like J.P. Gee and David Block have made, and it is pretty easy to see how it is based on the work of Scribner and Cole. (There is a good discussion of the differences--and the complementarities--in the Journal of English for Academic Purposes, 11, 2012, a special issue edited by Caroline Coffin and John Donohue, but unfortunately there is no discussion of preschool or even elementary school). But let me consider the second hand too. I recently wrote a piece on rather structured play in elementary school and the effect it had on developing grammar and vocabulary. I gave it the somewhat unfortunate title "Forced Choices" and submitted it to a journal of "dialogic" pedagogy. Although it was recommended for publication by two of the three reviewers, it was actually rejected by the editors, who supplied a long list of recommendations that I had to comply with before they would consent to publication. These included changing the title, and also changing the tenor of the argument--in favor of play for fun rather than for some academic purpose. It seems to me that this is actually fairly common practice: the more we write about elementary school and preschool, the more monolithic, and may I say, demogogic we find the academic consensus. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 18 August 2014 04:34, mike cole wrote: > David KEL > > What sort of organization of poor kids' education do your non-straw people > recommend? Where might we see it in action today? Is it the strategy > advocated by Engelmann and the DI movement? If not, how does it differ? > > A related question. Is the Vivian Paley curriculum that Ageliki has done > extensive research on improperly conceived? > > So far as I know, no one in this discussion has advocated free play for the > poor. Not even free straw! > > I am way behind the discussion and on the road, but at least free wi-fi in > crowded airports allows a few minutes to read and peck at a keyboard! > > Mike > > > > > > On Sunday, August 17, 2014, David H Kirshner wrote: > >> David, >> Thanks for your insightful post. >> In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was >> faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes from >> use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of >> response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. >> That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more >> authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior >> text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, >> and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to >> fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). >> I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who >> use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps >> functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change >> formats. >> Are there other reasons? >> David >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of David Kellogg >> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 9:27 PM >> To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance >> >> It seems to me that no straw man is really necessary here; there are very >> real proponents for the argument that so-called "child-centred" education >> privileges the rich and keeps working class kids in the dark about the >> unwritten gentleman's code that surrounds "humanistic" education. I'm one, >> but I think that Agelika has some more important adversaries. >> >> The first opponent to attack is Vygotsky. In his lecture on psychological >> development (in the untranslated "Foundations of Pedagogy"), he points out >> that children raised in orphanages do not develop speech as well as those >> who are raised in families, and he surmises that it is because that >> children use amongst each other is simply not as demanding as that which >> parents use. He also says that deaf children who are raised with siblings >> will not develop signing as well as those who are raised by deaf parents, >> and from this he concludes that ontogenesis is different from "natural" >> processes like ontogenesis and even sociogenesis, in that the final form >> of development has to be present and in interaction for development to take >> place. >> >> The second person to attack is Halliday (as well as Ruqaiya Hasan, Clare >> Painter, and the whole of the systemic-functional school). Influenced by >> Bernstein, they argued that "child-centred" forms of education supplied >> only implicit knowledge of register and genre which reinforced what middle >> class kids already knew, but was too implicit for kids not previously >> exposed to the genre at home. This argument was violently rejected by Labov >> (who I think did not really understand it). Curiously, though, nobody >> rejects the idea that when a child speaks a foreign language at home, they >> might need more explicit help with academic genres in school. >> >> The third person to attack is Gordon Wells, who demonstrated that >> differences in language surfaced already at three years old, and they were >> traceable to the quality of conversation that children were receiving at >> home. In particular, kids left with televisions or playing with younger >> siblings were at a definite disadvantage in comparison with children who >> were left with books and caring parents. >> >> This is somehow reminiscent of the recent furore over Amy Chua's book >> "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother". Its follow up "The Triple Package" is >> really about this issue as well. As usual, when there are such strong >> feelings on both sides, it is probable that both have something important >> to contribute. The real problem, and Agelika says, is that only one side is >> really being heard. For all its pleasant air of toleration, academic >> literature can be quite totalitarian. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies. >> >> >> >> >> On 17 August 2014 09:43, mike cole > >> wrote: >> >> > Hmmm. Its not on the front page. http://www.nifdi.org/about-di >> > mike' >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 5:38 PM, mike cole > > wrote: >> > >> > > I am not seeing any cases here where Engelmann, who is behind a lot >> > > of >> > the >> > > direct instruction game, still, is quoted as saying that play is >> > > useless >> > if >> > > not bad for poor/different kids although it might be find for the >> > > loquacious middle class. >> > > >> > > There has to be a smoking gun out there on their website or some >> > > public presentation. >> > > mike >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 1:24 PM, William Blanton >> > > > >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hi Ageliki, >> > >> >> > >> You might take a read of some of Madeline Hunter's writing. >> > >> Attached is two bibs on direct instruction. You might also take a >> > >> look an Ken Goodman's argument against direct instruction. Another >> > >> interesting challenge >> > against >> > >> direct instruction is Cole's idea of basic literacy activity rather >> > >> than basic liter skills. >> > >> >> > >> BB >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 7:59 AM, Carol Macdonald >> > >> >> > > >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > Hi Ageliki >> > >> > >> > >> > There was an approach called DISTAR - Direct Instruction Systems >> > >> > for >> > the >> > >> > Teaching of Arithmetic and Reading. Their claim - 70's and 80's >> > >> > was >> > >> that >> > >> > this was the best way to teach working class children. But this >> > >> > was >> > >> formal >> > >> > instruction at K-6 or so. I cannot think that this could be moved >> > >> > downwards. You can see examples on YouTube, noticing just what >> > >> > the materials look like. >> > >> > >> > >> > Preschool children are building up repertoires of vocabulary and >> > >> > so >> > on, >> > >> and >> > >> > this could hardly be done in a formal way. Reading stories and >> > >> information >> > >> > books would be done in Shared Reading formats. That's the best I >> > >> > can >> > >> do, >> > >> > but I look forward to other views. >> > >> > >> > >> > Bereiter.. >> > >> > >> > >> > Carol >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 16 August 2014 16:11, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear XMCA community, >> > >> > > >> > >> > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether >> > >> > > someone >> > >> on >> > >> > the >> > >> > > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's >> > >> > > storytelling >> > and >> > >> > > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an >> > >> example of >> > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to >> > >> > > early >> > >> child >> > >> > > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting >> > >> > > squeezed >> > >> out by >> > >> > > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize >> > >> > > teacher-centered, >> > >> didactic >> > >> > > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic >> > >> > > teaching practices into preschool education is a good thing in >> general. >> > >> However, >> > >> > > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more >> > >> > > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for >> > >> > > young children from educated middle class families ... but that >> > >> > > they won't >> > >> work >> > >> > > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need >> > direct >> > >> > > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them >> > >> > > anything >> > else >> > >> is, >> > >> > > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for >> > >> > > school readiness. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think >> > >> > > that, and >> > >> they >> > >> > > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that >> > >> > > rest implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very >> > >> > > widespread >> > >> and >> > >> > > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be >> > >> > > willing >> > >> to >> > >> > > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking >> > about >> > >> > > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction >> > websites >> > >> > that >> > >> > > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic >> > citations >> > >> in >> > >> > > articles, so I'm trying to find one. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where >> > >> > > someone >> > >> > actually >> > >> > > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, >> > play-based, >> > >> and >> > >> > > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually >> > >> > > describe >> > >> them) >> > >> > > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class >> > >> > > homes, but >> > >> are >> > >> > > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who >> > >> > > need >> > more >> > >> > > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* >> > >> > > >> > >> > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Thanks, >> > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> > >> > > >> > >> > > ________________ >> > >> > > Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> > >> > > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Personal Webpage: >> > >> http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About >> > >> > > Departmental Webpage: >> > >> http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) >> > >> > Developmental psycholinguist >> > >> > Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: >> > >> > Department of Linguistics, Unisa >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Aug 17 16:10:45 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 00:10:45 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: On 17 August 2014 19:20, David H Kirshner wrote: > David, > Thanks for your insightful post. > In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was > faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes from > use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of > response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. > That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more > authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior > text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, > and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to > fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). > Hi David, Actually embedded replies are used frequently and productively in many technical arenas! > I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who > use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps > functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change > formats. > Are there other reasons? > The email software conventions programmed into email clients (applications) indent the content of email that is replied to. Overriding this by not indenting old text would be unusual. Text formats etc are usually filterable by the mail server. Additionally the mail server can also perform simple functions such as cutting all text below a specially marked piece of text (e.g: http://www.redmine.org/issues/4409) to help prevent very long trailing messages. Best, Huw From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 17 17:57:42 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 10:57:42 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <53F14F86.9060609@mira.net> Or just sort your messages in subject/date order and read each message in whatever order you like. ... except for people like Huw who embed their replies. :) But in any case, it is nothing to do with xmca. Some messages put coloured lines on the left, some put grey lines on the left and some put >s on the left. It is hard to tell by looking, but I think it is the email client of the first responder which formats the next layer of indenting, resulting in mixtures of the 3 different modes in any given message on occasion. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 17 August 2014 19:20, David H Kirshner wrote: > > >> David, >> Thanks for your insightful post. >> In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was >> faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes from >> use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of >> response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. >> That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more >> authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior >> text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, >> and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to >> fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). >> >> > > Hi David, > > Actually embedded replies are used frequently and productively in many > technical arenas! > > > >> I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who >> use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps >> functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change >> formats. >> Are there other reasons? >> >> > > The email software conventions programmed into email clients (applications) > indent the content of email that is replied to. Overriding this by not > indenting old text would be unusual. > > Text formats etc are usually filterable by the mail server. Additionally > the mail server can also perform simple functions such as cutting all text > below a specially marked piece of text (e.g: > http://www.redmine.org/issues/4409) to help prevent very long trailing > messages. > > Best, > Huw > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Aug 17 18:22:30 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 02:22:30 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: <53F14F86.9060609@mira.net> References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <53F14F86.9060609@mira.net> Message-ID: Testing --LongSig This test may be cut. On 18 August 2014 01:57, Andy Blunden wrote: > Or just sort your messages in subject/date order and read each message in > whatever order you like. ... except for people like Huw who embed their > replies. :) > But in any case, it is nothing to do with xmca. > Some messages put coloured lines on the left, some put grey lines on the > left and some put >s on the left. It is hard to tell by looking, but I > think it is the email client of the first responder which formats the next > layer of indenting, resulting in mixtures of the 3 different modes in any > given message on occasion. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> On 17 August 2014 19:20, David H Kirshner wrote: >> >> >> >>> David, >>> Thanks for your insightful post. >>> In scrolling down below your message, to recover the context, I was >>> faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect that comes >>> from >>> use of the ">" program that separates out the various generations of >>> response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. >>> That formatting option may serve a valuable function in case two or more >>> authors are replying to each other with comments embedded in the prior >>> text. But that kind of communicative format is not used very frequently, >>> and even when it is, the line-break function of the program tends to >>> fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). >>> >>> >>> >> >> Hi David, >> >> Actually embedded replies are used frequently and productively in many >> technical arenas! >> >> >> >> >>> I suspect this format continues to be in popular use because people who >>> use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage that trumps >>> functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know how to change >>> formats. >>> Are there other reasons? >>> >>> >>> >> >> The email software conventions programmed into email clients >> (applications) >> indent the content of email that is replied to. Overriding this by not >> indenting old text would be unusual. >> >> Text formats etc are usually filterable by the mail server. Additionally >> the mail server can also perform simple functions such as cutting all text >> below a specially marked piece of text (e.g: >> http://www.redmine.org/issues/4409) to help prevent very long trailing >> messages. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 17 18:30:05 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 11:30:05 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <53F14F86.9060609@mira.net> Message-ID: <53F1571D.9020204@mira.net> So much for my theory! Your message, Huw, turned the coloured lines next to David Ki's message that I saw in my reply to him, into grey lines in your reply. So how do some messages end up with mixtures? andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Huw Lloyd wrote: > Testing > > > --LongSig > > > This test may be cut. > > > On 18 August 2014 01:57, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Or just sort your messages in subject/date order and read each > message in whatever order you like. ... except for people like Huw > who embed their replies. :) > But in any case, it is nothing to do with xmca. > Some messages put coloured lines on the left, some put grey lines > on the left and some put >s on the left. It is hard to tell by > looking, but I think it is the email client of the first responder > which formats the next layer of indenting, resulting in mixtures > of the 3 different modes in any given message on occasion. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > > On 17 August 2014 19:20, David H Kirshner > wrote: > > > > David, > Thanks for your insightful post. > In scrolling down below your message, to recover the > context, I was > faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect > that comes from > use of the ">" program that separates out the various > generations of > response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. > That formatting option may serve a valuable function in > case two or more > authors are replying to each other with comments embedded > in the prior > text. But that kind of communicative format is not used > very frequently, > and even when it is, the line-break function of the > program tends to > fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). > > > > > Hi David, > > Actually embedded replies are used frequently and productively > in many > technical arenas! > > > > > I suspect this format continues to be in popular use > because people who > use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage > that trumps > functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know > how to change > formats. > Are there other reasons? > > > > > The email software conventions programmed into email clients > (applications) > indent the content of email that is replied to. Overriding > this by not > indenting old text would be unusual. > > Text formats etc are usually filterable by the mail server. > Additionally > the mail server can also perform simple functions such as > cutting all text > below a specially marked piece of text (e.g: > http://www.redmine.org/issues/4409) to help prevent very long > trailing > messages. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Aug 17 19:19:28 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 03:19:28 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Email Format Conventions In-Reply-To: <53F1571D.9020204@mira.net> References: <509763b57e2a4ad7ad3ebf1b40151ebe@CO2PR0601MB790.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <53F14F86.9060609@mira.net> <53F1571D.9020204@mira.net> Message-ID: If you want to inspect the email contents you can look at their ASCII. e.g. for gmail there is a "show original" option. The ASCII can contain special codes to be interpreted by email clients etc. I don't think the longsig directive is implemented on mailman (the server xmca uses) but it can be. Best, Huw On 18 August 2014 02:30, Andy Blunden wrote: > So much for my theory! > Your message, Huw, turned the coloured lines next to David Ki's message > that I saw in my reply to him, into grey lines in your reply. > So how do some messages end up with mixtures? > > andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Testing >> >> --LongSig >> >> >> This test may be cut. >> >> >> On 18 August 2014 01:57, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Or just sort your messages in subject/date order and read each >> message in whatever order you like. ... except for people like Huw >> who embed their replies. :) >> But in any case, it is nothing to do with xmca. >> Some messages put coloured lines on the left, some put grey lines >> on the left and some put >s on the left. It is hard to tell by >> looking, but I think it is the email client of the first responder >> which formats the next layer of indenting, resulting in mixtures >> of the 3 different modes in any given message on occasion. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >> On 17 August 2014 19:20, David H Kirshner > > wrote: >> >> >> David, >> Thanks for your insightful post. >> In scrolling down below your message, to recover the >> context, I was >> faced--as all of us so often are--with the garbling effect >> that comes from >> use of the ">" program that separates out the various >> generations of >> response by inserting a new level of ">" for each new message. >> That formatting option may serve a valuable function in >> case two or more >> authors are replying to each other with comments embedded >> in the prior >> text. But that kind of communicative format is not used >> very frequently, >> and even when it is, the line-break function of the >> program tends to >> fragment sentences to the point of incoherence (see below). >> >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> Actually embedded replies are used frequently and productively >> in many >> technical arenas! >> >> >> >> I suspect this format continues to be in popular use >> because people who >> use it feel a sense of comfort with the tradition of usage >> that trumps >> functionality concerns, or perhaps they just don't know >> how to change >> formats. >> Are there other reasons? >> >> >> >> The email software conventions programmed into email clients >> (applications) >> indent the content of email that is replied to. Overriding >> this by not >> indenting old text would be unusual. >> >> Text formats etc are usually filterable by the mail server. >> Additionally >> the mail server can also perform simple functions such as >> cutting all text >> below a specially marked piece of text (e.g: >> http://www.redmine.org/issues/4409) to help prevent very long >> trailing >> messages. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> > From eg100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Mon Aug 18 09:32:37 2014 From: eg100@hermes.cam.ac.uk (Esther Goody) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:32:37 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30BADDD06243433F84470B44E82D4A2B@EstherTOSH> Dear xxxxx I would love to read this chapter when it is done. Esther Goody -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Avram Rips Sent: 17 August 2014 15:02 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance This is the chapter researching-comparing the Bright Start curriculum (Vygotsky,Piagetian and Feuerstein based) vs various populations including first language as well as a DISTAR preschool curriculum. Avram Rips: Brooks, P. H. & Haywood, H. C. (2003). A preschool mediational context: The Bright Start curriculum. In A. S. S. Hoon, L. P. K. Hoo n, & O - S. Tan (Eds . ) , Mediated learning experience with children: Applications across contexts , 98 - 132. Singapore: McGraw - Hill Education (Asia). The Bright Start curriculum is described in the context of its theoretical base, with description of the curriculum itself and its teaching methods. Evaluative research is organized by questions, such as effects on scholastic aptitude (intelligence), effects on cognitive development, effects on motivation to learn, effects on subsequent school achievement. An appendix contains practical information: how to purchase the curriculum, training of teachers, trainers, non - English edition From arips@optonline.net Mon Aug 18 11:45:18 2014 From: arips@optonline.net (Avram Rips) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 14:45:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: <30BADDD06243433F84470B44E82D4A2B@EstherTOSH> References: <30BADDD06243433F84470B44E82D4A2B@EstherTOSH> Message-ID: <5C50B5C20A724A94B531A661EC6BD91D@avramlindaPC> The book is already out. take care! Avram TITLE: Mediated Learning Experience With Children: Applications Across Contexts by Alice Seok-Hoon Seng, Lucy Kwee-Hoon Pou, Oon-Seng Tan ISBN: 0071-23217-6 ISBN 13: 978-0071-23217-3 Publisher: McGraw Hill Higher Education Publish Date: 2003-06-01 Binding: Hardcover List Price: USD 40.00 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Esther Goody" To: "'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2014 12:32 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance > Dear xxxxx > > I would love to read this chapter when it is done. > Esther Goody > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Avram Rips > Sent: 17 August 2014 15:02 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance > > This is the chapter researching-comparing the Bright Start curriculum > (Vygotsky,Piagetian and Feuerstein based) vs various populations including > first language as well as a DISTAR preschool curriculum. Avram Rips: > Brooks, > > P. H. & Haywood, H. C. (2003). A preschool mediational context: The Bright > Start curriculum. In A. S. S. Hoon, L. P. K. Hoo > n, & O > - > S. Tan (Eds > . > ) > , Mediated > learning experience with children: Applications across contexts > , 98 > - > 132. > Singapore: McGraw > - > Hill Education (Asia). > The Bright Start curriculum is described in the context of its theoretical > base, with > description of the > curriculum itself and its teaching methods. Evaluative research > is organized by questions, such as effects on scholastic aptitude > (intelligence), > effects on cognitive development, effects on motivation to learn, effects > on > subsequent school achievement. > An appendix contains practical information: > how to purchase the curriculum, training of teachers, trainers, non > - > English > edition > > > From Holli.Tonyan@csun.edu Mon Aug 18 22:00:27 2014 From: Holli.Tonyan@csun.edu (Tonyan, Holli A) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 05:00:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34208479-EC5A-4CC4-B2FE-FB8CC3E05679@csun.edu> Hi Ageliki, I can think of two resources for your topic. Lisa Delpit's book Other People's Children directly addresses this. She argues (I haven't read it in a while so forgive the fuzzy description) that a "child centered" focus harms children who are from cultural backgrounds outside of white, middle class backgrounds because they need more explicit instruction in a cultural community that is not their own. Carollee Howes book Culture and Child Development in Early Childhood Education is relevant, but less directly so. Howes includes a number of programs that she originally saw as "skill and drill" programs and she goes to some length to articulate their beliefs and practices in the context of their community. She's not arguing for "skill and drill" per se, but she is situating those approaches in local meaning through interviews with directors and teachers in programs that were identified by community members as excellent programs and which surprised her from her ECE background. Delpit's book, particularly the second edition, is the clearest articulation of the argument you present in the third paragraph below: However, there are some people who might be willing to concede that more child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school readiness. The preface to the second edition includes Delpit's description of the reactions that her colleagues have had to her arguments including those who agree (often in private and not in public) as well as those who oppose her. Hope this helps! Holli Tonyan On Aug 16, 2014, at 7:11 AM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: Dear XMCA community, I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on the XMCA list has it at their fingertips. I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, there are some people who might be willing to concede that more child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school readiness. My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in articles, so I'm trying to find one. *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone actually SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. Thanks, Ageliki Nicolopoulou ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Personal Webpage: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=6a17755971ebaeca66e7a24d577fa559f5749d719fe3d9e43f0e55734c76a872 Departmental Webpage: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id%3D1430&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=83b487928946eb760073a00968fd37eb3a53224b009ff50818ea4793fe26367c Holli A. Tonyan, Ph.D. ------------ Associate Professor | Department of Psychology | California State University, Northridge Postal Address: 18111 Nordhoff Street | Northridge, CA 91330-8255 Tel: (818) 677-4970 | Fax: (818) 677-2829 Office: ST322 http://www.csun.edu/~htonyan http://csun.academia.edu/HolliTonyan http://www.csun.edu/~ata20315/GE/general_experimental_psychology2.html **check out** Tonyan, H. A. (in press). Everyday routines: A window into the cultural organization of family child care. Journal of Early Childhood Research. http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1476718X14523748 Tonyan, H. A., Nuttall, J. (2014). Connecting cultural models of home-based care and childminders? career paths: An Eco-cultural analysis. International Journal of Early Years Education, 22, 117-138, http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/09669760.2013.809654 Tonyan, H. A., Mamikonian, A., & Chien, D. (2013). Do they practice what they preach? An Ecocultural, multidimensional, group-based examination of the relationship between beliefs and behaviours among child care providers. Early Child Development and Care, 183:12, 1853-1877. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03004430.2012.759949 This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable federal or state law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by telephone at (818)677-4970, and destroy all copies of this e-mail and all attachments. Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead US anthropologist & popularizer of anthropology (1901 - 1978) From chronaki@uth.gr Tue Aug 19 03:53:40 2014 From: chronaki@uth.gr (chronaki) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 13:53:40 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: <34208479-EC5A-4CC4-B2FE-FB8CC3E05679@csun.edu> References: <34208479-EC5A-4CC4-B2FE-FB8CC3E05679@csun.edu> Message-ID: <53F32CB4.304@uth.gr> Dear Aggeliki I get into this line of discussion, hoping that I have something to offer, as it is very close to my heart, my experiences and my current work. I work in an early childhood department of education and I teach mathematics pedagogy and learning courses to our undergraduates -who mostly ome from a working class background. I try to organize my courses around interdisciplinary work using digital media and expressive arts so that to prepare them for becoming designers of playful and art-based activity for the young children -so that to experience mathematical learning not as direct teaching but as connected and related. I realize that very often my students have a very limited 'taste' of what might be aesthetically appropriate for the early ages, what is play, how play could be possibly linked to joy, how work can be joyful or even how play can require discipline, logic and intuition. Of course, this 'limited taste' reflects to some extent a matter of working/middle class diversity (although such distinctions are not exactly relevant today ). Some of my students haven't visited a museum in their life and know merely commercial play as it is advertised in shops and TV. The discussion over playful learning and how this relates to social class (especially in the early ages) is quite important and, perhaps, much more relevant today than it was a few decades ago. The topic is not new -but seems to come up again and again, although through different theorizing, empirical evidence and priorities in educational politics but also educational commerce (e.g.- see what is being bought today at such an ease by anxious parents and educators?!!...). I can think over two publications in the field of mathematics education that may be of some use here. One is a book by Cooper, Barry and Dunne, Mairead [see exact reference ....(2000) /Assessing Children's Mathematical Knowledge: social class sex and problem solving./ Open University Press Buckingham, 215 pp. ISBN 0335-20316-7] that discusses a sociological analysis (based mainly on Bernstein) on how explicit/implicit ways of educating influence children's success and how this relates to social class and gender. Another one is Valerie Walkerdine's well known book entitled 'Counting Girls' Out: Girls and Mathematics' published in the 80s. Although the title does not disclose its relevance to social class, this book is also closely related to the discussion of playful or 'progressive' education and its appropriation by working and middle class families (note: perhaps one needs to attend to the 'new middle classes' phenomenon due to the upgrading or even downgrading in social classes. In the 80s, much more than it is now, the family was for many households the 'mother' and the family was extended into the preschool years to the teacher -who was supposed to be the 'mother figure'. I have found very useful the discussion carried through the book over how 'playful' activity (and progressive pedagogy) influences differently social and working class 'mothers' and how related discourses tend to inscribe their interactions, behavior, pleasures, tacit assessments and evaluative comments. How, then, the child can resist or appropriate such discursive machinery? ?ow much play requires the 'meeting' of diverse discourses that, mainly relate to social class, ethnic, gendered diversities. Walkerdine provides some explanations throughout the book based on Foucault and feminist theory. I have enjoyed this book and although the book is not new it deserves an extra reading. I was recently responsible for editing its translation into Greek. Perhaps you might want to have a look in a lecture videotaped by Bodosakis foundation as an introduction to these very complex issues [ http://www.blod.gr/lectures/Pages/viewlecture.aspx?LectureID=786]. I guess you speak Greek. If not, ignore the video... with best wishes anna chronaki On 19-Aug-14 8:00 AM, Tonyan, Holli A wrote: > Hi Ageliki, > > I can think of two resources for your topic. > > Lisa Delpit's book Other People's Children directly addresses this. She argues (I haven't read it in a while so forgive the fuzzy description) that a "child centered" focus harms children who are from cultural backgrounds outside of white, middle class backgrounds because they need more explicit instruction in a cultural community that is not their own. > > Carollee Howes book Culture and Child Development in Early Childhood Education is relevant, but less directly so. Howes includes a number of programs that she originally saw as "skill and drill" programs and she goes to some length to articulate their beliefs and practices in the context of their community. She's not arguing for "skill and drill" per se, but she is situating those approaches in local meaning through interviews with directors and teachers in programs that were identified by community members as excellent programs and which surprised her from her ECE background. > > Delpit's book, particularly the second edition, is the clearest articulation of the argument you present in the third paragraph below: > However, > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school readiness. > > The preface to the second edition includes Delpit's description of the reactions that her colleagues have had to her arguments including those who agree (often in private and not in public) as well as those who oppose her. > > Hope this helps! > Holli Tonyan > > On Aug 16, 2014, at 7:11 AM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > wrote: > > Dear XMCA community, > > I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on the > XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > > I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child > education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by > preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic > transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > > A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, > there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work > for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, > at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school readiness. > > My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they > say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and > influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that > say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in > articles, so I'm trying to find one. > > *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone actually > SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and > constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) > might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are > useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > > I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > > Thanks, > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > > ________________ > Ageliki Nicolopoulou > Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > Personal Webpage: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=6a17755971ebaeca66e7a24d577fa559f5749d719fe3d9e43f0e55734c76a872 > Departmental Webpage: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id%3D1430&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=83b487928946eb760073a00968fd37eb3a53224b009ff50818ea4793fe26367c > > Holli A. Tonyan, Ph.D. > ------------ > Associate Professor | Department of Psychology | California State University, Northridge > Postal Address: 18111 Nordhoff Street | Northridge, CA 91330-8255 > > Tel: (818) 677-4970 | Fax: (818) 677-2829 > Office: ST322 > > http://www.csun.edu/~htonyan > http://csun.academia.edu/HolliTonyan > http://www.csun.edu/~ata20315/GE/general_experimental_psychology2.html > > **check out** > > Tonyan, H. A. (in press). Everyday routines: A window into the cultural organization of family child care. Journal of Early Childhood Research. http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1476718X14523748 > > Tonyan, H. A., Nuttall, J. (2014). Connecting cultural models of home-based care and childminders? career paths: An Eco-cultural analysis. International Journal of Early Years Education, 22, 117-138, http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/09669760.2013.809654 > > Tonyan, H. A., Mamikonian, A., & Chien, D. (2013). Do they practice what they preach? An Ecocultural, multidimensional, group-based examination of the relationship between beliefs and behaviours among child care providers. Early Child Development and Care, 183:12, 1853-1877. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03004430.2012.759949 > > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable federal or state law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, please immediately notify the sender by telephone at (818)677-4970, and destroy all copies of this e-mail and all attachments. > > Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead US anthropologist & popularizer of anthropology (1901 - 1978) > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Aug 19 14:34:59 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:34:59 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: <53F32CB4.304@uth.gr> References: <34208479-EC5A-4CC4-B2FE-FB8CC3E05679@csun.edu> <53F32CB4.304@uth.gr> Message-ID: Someone was kind enough to point out that among the (doubless legion) errors in my posts on this topic was a rather infelicitous phrase which seemed to imply that only middle class parents were caring. The point I was trying to make was that working class parents work--and this eventually means less time for care-taking (not "caring"). This is as much a fact of preschool life as the fact that larger classes mean less individual time with the teacher during school life. And--like most facts of working class life in the last few decades--it's getting worse, thanks to software which allows employers to treat their minimum wage staff the way that hospitals treat doctors--without the benefits. Take a look at this: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/starbucks-workers-scheduling-hours.html?_r=0 David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 19 August 2014 19:53, chronaki wrote: > Dear Aggeliki > > I get into this line of discussion, hoping that I have something to offer, > as it is very close to my heart, my experiences and my current work. I work > in an early childhood department of education and I teach mathematics > pedagogy and learning courses to our undergraduates -who mostly ome from a > working class background. I try to organize my courses around > interdisciplinary work using digital media and expressive arts so that to > prepare them for becoming designers of playful and art-based activity for > the young children -so that to experience mathematical learning not as > direct teaching but as connected and related. I realize that very often my > students have a very limited 'taste' of what might be aesthetically > appropriate for the early ages, what is play, how play could be possibly > linked to joy, how work can be joyful or even how play can require > discipline, logic and intuition. Of course, this 'limited taste' reflects to > some extent a matter of working/middle class diversity (although such > distinctions are not exactly relevant today ). Some of my students haven't > visited a museum in their life and know merely commercial play as it is > advertised in shops and TV. > > The discussion over playful learning and how this relates to social class > (especially in the early ages) is quite important and, perhaps, much more > relevant today than it was a few decades ago. The topic is not new -but > seems to come up again and again, although through different theorizing, > empirical evidence and priorities in educational politics but also > educational commerce (e.g.- see what is being bought today at such an ease > by anxious parents and educators?!!...). > > I can think over two publications in the field of mathematics education that > may be of some use here. > One is a book by Cooper, Barry and Dunne, Mairead [see exact reference > ....(2000) /Assessing Children's Mathematical Knowledge: social class sex > and problem solving./ Open University Press > Buckingham, 215 pp. ISBN 0335-20316-7] that discusses a sociological > analysis (based mainly on Bernstein) on how explicit/implicit ways of > educating influence children's success and how this relates to social class > and gender. > > Another one is Valerie Walkerdine's well known book entitled 'Counting > Girls' Out: Girls and Mathematics' published in the 80s. Although the title > does not disclose its relevance to social class, this book is also closely > related to the discussion of playful or 'progressive' education and its > appropriation by working and middle class families (note: perhaps one needs > to attend to the 'new middle classes' phenomenon due to the upgrading or > even downgrading in social classes. In the 80s, much more than it is now, > the family was for many households the 'mother' and the family was extended > into the preschool years to the teacher -who was supposed to be the 'mother > figure'. I have found very useful the discussion carried through the book > over how 'playful' activity (and progressive pedagogy) influences > differently social and working class 'mothers' and how related discourses > tend to inscribe their interactions, behavior, pleasures, tacit assessments > and evaluative comments. How, then, the child can resist or appropriate such > discursive machinery? ?ow much play requires the 'meeting' of diverse > discourses that, mainly relate to social class, ethnic, gendered > diversities. Walkerdine provides some explanations throughout the book based > on Foucault and feminist theory. I have enjoyed this book and although the > book is not new it deserves an extra reading. I was recently responsible for > editing its translation into Greek. Perhaps you might want to have a look in > a lecture videotaped by Bodosakis foundation as an introduction to these > very complex issues [ > http://www.blod.gr/lectures/Pages/viewlecture.aspx?LectureID=786]. I guess > you speak Greek. If not, ignore the video... > > with best wishes > anna chronaki > > > > On 19-Aug-14 8:00 AM, Tonyan, Holli A wrote: >> >> Hi Ageliki, >> >> I can think of two resources for your topic. >> >> Lisa Delpit's book Other People's Children directly addresses this. She >> argues (I haven't read it in a while so forgive the fuzzy description) that >> a "child centered" focus harms children who are from cultural backgrounds >> outside of white, middle class backgrounds because they need more explicit >> instruction in a cultural community that is not their own. >> >> Carollee Howes book Culture and Child Development in Early Childhood >> Education is relevant, but less directly so. Howes includes a number of >> programs that she originally saw as "skill and drill" programs and she goes >> to some length to articulate their beliefs and practices in the context of >> their community. She's not arguing for "skill and drill" per se, but she is >> situating those approaches in local meaning through interviews with >> directors and teachers in programs that were identified by community members >> as excellent programs and which surprised her from her ECE background. >> >> Delpit's book, particularly the second edition, is the clearest >> articulation of the argument you present in the third paragraph below: >> However, >> there are some people who might be willing to concede that more >> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young >> children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work >> for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct >> instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, >> at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school >> readiness. >> >> The preface to the second edition includes Delpit's description of the >> reactions that her colleagues have had to her arguments including those who >> agree (often in private and not in public) as well as those who oppose her. >> >> Hope this helps! >> Holli Tonyan >> >> On Aug 16, 2014, at 7:11 AM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> > wrote: >> >> Dear XMCA community, >> >> I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on >> the >> XMCA list has it at their fingertips. >> >> I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and >> story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example of >> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child >> education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out by >> preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, didactic >> transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. >> >> A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching >> practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, >> there are some people who might be willing to concede that more >> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young >> children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't work >> for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct >> instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else is, >> at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school >> readiness. >> >> My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and they >> say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest >> implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and >> influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to >> actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about >> academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites that >> say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in >> articles, so I'm trying to find one. >> >> *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone >> actually >> SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, and >> constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) >> might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are >> useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more >> teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* >> >> I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. >> >> Thanks, >> Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> >> ________________ >> Ageliki Nicolopoulou >> Professor of Psychology & Global Studies >> Personal Webpage: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=6a17755971ebaeca66e7a24d577fa559f5749d719fe3d9e43f0e55734c76a872 >> Departmental Webpage: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id%3D1430&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=83b487928946eb760073a00968fd37eb3a53224b009ff50818ea4793fe26367c >> >> Holli A. Tonyan, Ph.D. >> ------------ >> Associate Professor | Department of Psychology | California State >> University, Northridge >> Postal Address: 18111 Nordhoff Street | Northridge, CA 91330-8255 >> >> Tel: (818) 677-4970 | Fax: (818) 677-2829 >> Office: ST322 >> >> http://www.csun.edu/~htonyan >> http://csun.academia.edu/HolliTonyan >> http://www.csun.edu/~ata20315/GE/general_experimental_psychology2.html >> >> **check out** >> >> Tonyan, H. A. (in press). Everyday routines: A window into the cultural >> organization of family child care. Journal of Early Childhood Research. >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1476718X14523748 >> >> Tonyan, H. A., Nuttall, J. (2014). Connecting cultural models of >> home-based care and childminders? career paths: An Eco-cultural analysis. >> International Journal of Early Years Education, 22, 117-138, >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/09669760.2013.809654 >> >> Tonyan, H. A., Mamikonian, A., & Chien, D. (2013). Do they practice what >> they preach? An Ecocultural, multidimensional, group-based examination of >> the relationship between beliefs and behaviours among child care providers. >> Early Child Development and Care, 183:12, 1853-1877. >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03004430.2012.759949 >> >> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to >> which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, >> confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable federal or state >> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the >> employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended >> recipient, please immediately notify the sender by telephone at >> (818)677-4970, and destroy all copies of this e-mail and all attachments. >> >> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can >> change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret >> Mead US anthropologist >> & popularizer of anthropology (1901 - 1978) >> >> >> > From ddowningw@gmail.com Wed Aug 20 07:49:02 2014 From: ddowningw@gmail.com (deborah downing-wilson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:49:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Final Volume of Thinking: The Journal of Philosophy for Children now available Message-ID: For a limited time, print copies of past issues of *Thinking* are available *without charge*, for the cost of shipping. To order, please fill out the IAPC Publications Order Form and follow payment instructions below. - Friends and colleagues, I'm happy and sad to announce the publication of the final volume, 20:3&4, of *Thinking: The Journal of Philosophy for Children*. I have attached the Table of Contents to this email. On behalf of the IAPC I thank the scores of publishers, editors, reviewers, photographers, graphic designers and authors who shared their talents with us for 35 years. I have made a list of most of them for the IAPC's digital archive here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ld4qANIqnVimASlHudBtJ3Uv5zs7oFUx8e1AqjLlL4/edit?usp=sharing A complete Index of all 20 Volumes of *Thinking* is available here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BDQMpjsbf5ujXWW6S08uti-JUWBmHKyU6z3z2511I5A/edit?usp=sharing We at the IAPC are gratified that the major academic journals and publishing houses in the fields of education, philosophy of education and some in philosophy regularly publish books and articles on philosophy for/with children/adolescents, and that there are currently four professional / academic journals that maintain a focus on philosophy for children: - Analytic Teaching and Philosophical Praxis ( http://www.viterbo.edu/atpp/) - ICPIC Journal: Childhood and Philosophy ( http://icpic.org/journal-childhood-and-philosophy/) - PLATO Journal: Questions: Philosophy for Young People: ( http://plato-philosophy.org/who-we-are/journal-questions/) - FAPSA Journal: Journal of Philosophy in Schools ( http://www.ojs.unisa.edu.au/index.php/jps/) We look forward to a robust future of scholarship and professional exchange with you in these and other venues. Maughn Gregory -- "Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step." - *Martin Luther King*, *Jr*. Deborah Downing Wilson, Ph.D. Laboratory for Comparative Human Cognition http://lchc.ucsd.edu/ Department of Communication Studies University of Nevada Reno http://www.unr.edu/cla/commstudies/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Thinking Vol. 20 Nos. 3&4 Table of Contents.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 200927 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140820/8f6cf2a4/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gregorym.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 306 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140820/8f6cf2a4/attachment.vcf From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Aug 21 08:34:02 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:34:02 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Academic openings in Chile References: <53f51974.085ee00a.4852.71f0SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <366251CA-417E-4C70-9678-2520AC320DF4@gmail.com> Please distribute. People interested can contact me directly. > > > > > > CONCURSO ACAD?MICO > > La Escuela de Psicolog?a de la Pontificia Universidad Cat?lica de Chile llama a concurso para tres cargos de planta ordinaria, 44 horas, en las ?reas de: > > *Psicolog?a Cl?nica > > *Psicolog?a Educacional y/o del Desarrollo > > *Psicolog?a Laboral / Organizacional > > Requisito: > > Doctorado finalizado en Psicolog?a o en disciplinas relacionadas (Ciencias Cognitivas, Educaci?n, Administraci?n, u otros en las Ciencias Sociales) > > Requisitos espec?ficos para cargo en Psicolog?a Cl?nica: > > -Licenciado en psicolog?a, T?tulo profesional de Psic?logo(a) de una Universidad Chilena o Extranjera revalidado en Chile. (En casos excepcionales, la comisi?n puede considerar esperar un a?o por la revalidaci?n) > > -Acreditaci?n como Especialista en Psicoterapia por la Comisi?n Nacional de Psic?logos Cl?nicos de Chile, o Experiencia demostrable que asegure acreditaci?n a Marzo 2015 > > -Acreditaci?n como Psic?logo Supervisor por la Comisi?n Nacional de Psic?logos Cl?nicos de Chile, o Experiencia demostrable como supervisor en psicoterapia que asegure acreditaci?n a Marzo 2015 > > Funciones: > > - Se espera que los acad?micos desarrollen una carrera en planta ordinaria de acuerdo a las expectativas fijadas en el reglamento acad?mico UC (Descargar Aqu?) > - La posici?n involucra labores de investigaci?n y docencia. > > - Los postulantes deber?n demostrar potencial para desarrollar una l?nea de investigaci?n independiente, original y de relevancia internacional. > > - Se espera que los profesores realicen cursos en los programas de postgrado de su especialidad y en el programa de pregrado de la Escuela de Psicolog?a. > > Postulaci?n > > Los postulantes deben enviar: > > - Carta de presentaci?n de no m?s de una p?gina > > - Propuesta de l?nea de investigaci?n a desarrollar as? como resumen de enfoque pedag?gico (no m?s de 2500 palabras) > > - Curriculum Vitae > > -Tres cartas de recomendaci?n enviadas directamente por los recomendadores como pdf a msepulvm@uc.cl indicando en el subject "concurso acad?mico EPUC" y en el texto del email el nombre del postulante > > - Una publicaci?n representativa de su trabajo de investigaci?n previo > > El concurso puede ser declarado desierto. Interesados enviar documentaci?n en formato pdf a msepulvm@uc.cl hasta el 20 de Octubre de 2014, con el asunto "concurso acad?mico EPUC" especificando a cu?l de los tres puestos postula. > > Consultas sobre este concurso pueden ser realizadas a David Preiss en el e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl > > > > > Si no puedes ver este e-mail haz click aqu? > Si desea desuscribirse de este remitente haga click aqu? From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Aug 22 08:58:21 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:58:21 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apropos recent, unfinished discussion Mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Routledge Education* Date: Friday, August 22, 2014 Subject: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster To: mcole@ucsd.edu Not displaying correctly? View in your browser: http://tandf.msgfocus.com/q/17EITwsOx6x48sZDsdQsg9/wv Plain text version | Add to safe senders list Dear Colleague, This collection features key articles exploring the impact that poverty, conflict and disaster have on education. Articles include: - Good and poor sources of educational aid: a five-nation study *Asia Pacific Journal of Education* - Community music activity in a refugee camp ? student music teachers' practicum experiences *Music Education Research* - From ?slumdog? to humanitarian: educating orphans to save the world *International Journal of Children?s Spirituality* Read these articles and many more with *free online access until 31st December 2014.* Kind regards, Andrea Wells Routledge Education Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Forward to a friend *Table of Content Alerts* Be the first to know when a new issue is published! Simply visit the journal's homepage and click on the 'Alert me' link. Click here to find out more on Alerts. follow us on Twitter | find us on Facebook | forward to a friend [image: Taylor & Francis imprints] *Sign up by subject area to receive news and offers straight to your inbox from the Taylor & Francis Group.* You will be able to update your details or unsubscribe at any time. We respect your privacy and will not disclose, rent or sell your email address to any outside organisations. Copyright ? 2014 Taylor & Francis, an Informa business. Taylor & Francis is a trading name of Informa UK Limited, registered in England under no. 1072954. Registered office: Mortimer House, 37-41 Mortimer Street, London, W1T 3JH. If you wish to unsubscribe, please click here . Please note this is an automated operation. [image: Powered by Adestra] From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Fri Aug 22 09:34:25 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:34:25 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5137A262-8725-4740-930A-B1CEFE046212@eastsideinstitute.org> And apropos for Mike's citations, Performing the World 2014 in October will have many presentations on play, performance, creative arts in places of extreme poverty?an international display of responses to the question: How Shall We Become? All welcome! Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Aug 22, 2014, at 11:58 AM, mike cole wrote: > Apropos recent, unfinished discussion > Mike > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Routledge Education* > Date: Friday, August 22, 2014 > Subject: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster > To: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > Not displaying > correctly? View in your browser: > http://tandf.msgfocus.com/q/17EITwsOx6x48sZDsdQsg9/wv > Plain text version > | Add to > safe senders list > > > > Dear Colleague, > > This collection > features key articles exploring the impact that poverty, conflict and > disaster have on education. Articles include: > > - Good and poor sources of educational aid: a five-nation study > > *Asia Pacific Journal of Education* > - Community music activity in a refugee camp ? student music teachers' > practicum experiences > > *Music Education Research* > - From ?slumdog? to humanitarian: educating orphans to save the world > > *International Journal of Children?s Spirituality* > > Read these articles and many more > with *free online > access until 31st December 2014.* > > Kind regards, > Andrea Wells > Routledge Education > > > > > Share > on Facebook > > > Share > on Twitter > > Forward to a friend > > *Table of Content Alerts* > Be the first to know when a new issue is published! Simply visit the > journal's homepage and click on the 'Alert me' link. Click here > to find out more > on Alerts. > follow us on Twitter > | find us on > Facebook | forward > to a friend [image: > Taylor & Francis imprints] > > > *Sign up by subject area > to receive news > and offers straight to your inbox from the Taylor & Francis Group.* > > You will be able to update your details or unsubscribe at any time. > We respect your privacy and will not disclose, rent or sell your email > address to any outside organisations. > Copyright ? 2014 Taylor & Francis, an Informa business. > Taylor & Francis is a trading name of Informa UK Limited, registered in > England under no. 1072954. > Registered office: Mortimer House, 37-41 Mortimer Street, London, W1T 3JH. > > If you wish to unsubscribe, please click here > . Please note this is an > automated operation. > > [image: Powered by Adestra] From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Aug 22 10:39:02 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:39:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster In-Reply-To: <5137A262-8725-4740-930A-B1CEFE046212@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <5137A262-8725-4740-930A-B1CEFE046212@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: Lois, Will there be any way to participate or watch things at Performing the World via the internet? Maybe a live stream of some of the bigger sessions? Or maybe some of the sessions can be recorded and posted later? I'm extremely interested but unlikely to be able to make the trip. -greg On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > And apropos for Mike's citations, Performing the World 2014 in October > will have many presentations on play, performance, creative arts in places > of extreme poverty?an international display of responses to the question: > How Shall We Become? > > All welcome! > > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Aug 22, 2014, at 11:58 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Apropos recent, unfinished discussion > > Mike > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: *Routledge Education* > > Date: Friday, August 22, 2014 > > Subject: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster > > To: mcole@ucsd.edu > > > > > > Not displaying > > correctly? View in your browser: > > http://tandf.msgfocus.com/q/17EITwsOx6x48sZDsdQsg9/wv > > Plain text version > > | Add > to > > safe senders list > > > > > > > > Dear Colleague, > > > > This collection > > features key articles exploring the impact that poverty, conflict and > > disaster have on education. Articles include: > > > > - Good and poor sources of educational aid: a five-nation study > > > > *Asia Pacific Journal of Education* > > - Community music activity in a refugee camp ? student music teachers' > > practicum experiences > > > > *Music Education Research* > > - From ?slumdog? to humanitarian: educating orphans to save the world > > > > *International Journal of Children?s Spirituality* > > > > Read these articles and many more > > with *free > online > > access until 31st December 2014.* > > > > Kind regards, > > Andrea Wells > > Routledge Education < > http://tandf.msgfocus.com/c/145PNZ7CDUn8V4EZSR3qv49A61> > > > > > > > > > > >Share > > on Facebook > > > > > > < > http://tandf.msgfocus.com/o/11wvxxbyjjCzT4kb?status=%24AMF_SHORT_PERMALINK%24 > >Share > > on Twitter > > < > http://tandf.msgfocus.com/o/11wvxxbyjjCzT4kb?status=Submit+your+paper+to+%23International+%23Sociology+of+%23Education+Conference.+Deadline+31+August%2C+2014.+%24AMF_SHORT_PERMALINK%24 > > > > Forward to a friend > > > > *Table of Content Alerts* > > Be the first to know when a new issue is published! Simply visit the > > journal's homepage and click on the 'Alert me' link. Click here > > to find out > more > > on Alerts. > > follow us on Twitter > > | find us on > > Facebook | > forward > > to a friend > [image: > > Taylor & Francis imprints] > > > > > > *Sign up by subject area > > to receive news > > and offers straight to your inbox from the Taylor & Francis Group.* > > > > You will be able to update your details or unsubscribe at any time. > > We respect your privacy and will not disclose, rent or sell your email > > address to any outside organisations. > > Copyright ? 2014 Taylor & Francis, an Informa business. > > Taylor & Francis is a trading name of Informa UK Limited, registered in > > England under no. 1072954. > > Registered office: Mortimer House, 37-41 Mortimer Street, London, W1T > 3JH. > > > > If you wish to unsubscribe, please click here > > . Please note this is an > > automated operation. > > > > [image: Powered by Adestra] > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Fri Aug 22 11:40:40 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:40:40 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster In-Reply-To: References: <5137A262-8725-4740-930A-B1CEFE046212@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <1ED00A77-43E8-43F4-9083-09C6564F0E2F@eastsideinstitute.org> Hi Greg, Thanks for asking. Unfortunately there's no live streaming available. (Actually, I will check. Maybe the plenary is possible.) There will definitely be some video posted post-conference . Let me know if it becomes possible for you to make the trip. All best, Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Aug 22, 2014, at 1:39 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Lois, > Will there be any way to participate or watch things at Performing the > World via the internet? > > Maybe a live stream of some of the bigger sessions? > > Or maybe some of the sessions can be recorded and posted later? > > I'm extremely interested but unlikely to be able to make the trip. > -greg > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > >> And apropos for Mike's citations, Performing the World 2014 in October >> will have many presentations on play, performance, creative arts in places >> of extreme poverty?an international display of responses to the question: >> How Shall We Become? >> >> All welcome! >> >> Lois >> >> >> Lois Holzman >> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> 104-106 South Oxford Street >> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> Social Media >> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >> Blogs >> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >> Websites >> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >> All Stars Project >> >> >> >> On Aug 22, 2014, at 11:58 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Apropos recent, unfinished discussion >>> Mike >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: *Routledge Education* >>> Date: Friday, August 22, 2014 >>> Subject: Free Access: Education in Extreme Poverty, Conflict and Disaster >>> To: mcole@ucsd.edu >>> >>> >>> Not displaying >>> correctly? View in your browser: >>> http://tandf.msgfocus.com/q/17EITwsOx6x48sZDsdQsg9/wv >>> Plain text version >>> | Add >> to >>> safe senders list >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Colleague, >>> >>> This collection >>> features key articles exploring the impact that poverty, conflict and >>> disaster have on education. Articles include: >>> >>> - Good and poor sources of educational aid: a five-nation study >>> >>> *Asia Pacific Journal of Education* >>> - Community music activity in a refugee camp ? student music teachers' >>> practicum experiences >>> >>> *Music Education Research* >>> - From ?slumdog? to humanitarian: educating orphans to save the world >>> >>> *International Journal of Children?s Spirituality* >>> >>> Read these articles and many more >>> with *free >> online >>> access until 31st December 2014.* >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Andrea Wells >>> Routledge Education < >> http://tandf.msgfocus.com/c/145PNZ7CDUn8V4EZSR3qv49A61> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Share >>> on Facebook >>> >>> >>> < >> http://tandf.msgfocus.com/o/11wvxxbyjjCzT4kb?status=%24AMF_SHORT_PERMALINK%24 >>> Share >>> on Twitter >>> < >> http://tandf.msgfocus.com/o/11wvxxbyjjCzT4kb?status=Submit+your+paper+to+%23International+%23Sociology+of+%23Education+Conference.+Deadline+31+August%2C+2014.+%24AMF_SHORT_PERMALINK%24 >>> >>> Forward to a friend >>> >>> *Table of Content Alerts* >>> Be the first to know when a new issue is published! 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Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 24 06:31:59 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:31:59 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Highlander Center in Tennessee Message-ID: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what used to be called the Highlander Folk School? The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were doing in the 1950s and 60s. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sun Aug 24 07:13:31 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:13:31 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy, Yes I do. Start with this . http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ And this biography of Myles Horton http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 and the biography of Septima Clark. http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles Horton and Paulo Freire is one of the best books on both these leaders. More Later, Robert Lake I will send more this afternoon. On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what used to be > called the Highlander Folk School? > The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off their feet > (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other sources of information > about it, that would be helpful. I'm particularly interested if anyone is > familiar with what they were doing in the 1950s and 60s. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From peg.griffin@att.net Sun Aug 24 07:15:04 2014 From: peg.griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 07:15:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> Message-ID: <1408889704.79820.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Have you looked into their Working Papers Series?? Many have annotated bibliographies attached.? Glad to see you're looking at it! PG On Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:33 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what used to be called the Highlander Folk School? The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were doing in the 1950s and 60s. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 24 07:17:50 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 00:17:50 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> Message-ID: <53F9F40E.1070908@mira.net> Perhaps we can talk off-line Robert, I've been to that website, I've spoken to them on the phone, I have ordered all the books that Myles Horton ever wrote and read a lot of them on Google books while waiting for them to reach Melbourne. I haven't read Septima Clark biog though. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Robert Lake wrote: > Hi Andy, > Yes I do. Start with this . > http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > > And this biography of Myles Horton > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > and the biography of Septima Clark. > > http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > > > I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. > > > I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles > Horton and Paulo Freire > is one of the best books on both these leaders. > > More Later, > Robert Lake > > > I will send more this afternoon. > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what > used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off > their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other > sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were > doing in the 1950s and 60s. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > -- > *Robert Lake Ed.D. > *Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 24 07:18:36 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 00:18:36 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <1408889704.79820.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <1408889704.79820.YahooMailNeo@web180902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53F9F43C.80800@mira.net> Where can I see the working papers, Peg? Does it go back to the 1950s? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > Have you looked into their Working Papers Series? Many have annotated > bibliographies attached. > Glad to see you're looking at it! > PG > > > On Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:33 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what used to > be called the Highlander Folk School? > The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off their > feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other sources of > information about it, that would be helpful. I'm particularly interested > if anyone is familiar with what they were doing in the 1950s and 60s. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > From chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp Sun Aug 24 07:57:40 2014 From: chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp (=?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCREQbKEIgGyRCPj0+PRsoQg==?=) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:57:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXISEbKEJpbiBzb2Np?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?by1jdWx0dXJhbCByZXNlYXJjaA==?= Message-ID: Dear XMAL community: My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me suggestion about my project. Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. sincerelyJingJing ----------------------------------------------------------------- JingJing Chen Doctoral Program in Psychology, Graduate School of Comprehensive Human Sciences, University of Tsukuba E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp ------------------------------------------------------------------ From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sun Aug 24 10:59:47 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:59:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jing Jing, I am so glad to hear of your interest in hope as it relates to the socio-cultural framework in education. You might want to look at *Pedagogy of Hope* by Paulo Freire, and *The Revolution of Hope: Toward a Humanized Technology* by Erich Fromm Also you can read the introduction to this book for a little more specific application of Freire's work to the present day. https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/1476-we-saved-the-best-for-you.pdf This project seems really significant in the context of present and future Japan. Let us know if we can help more specifically. *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > Dear XMAL community: > My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. > I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research > are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful > for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me > suggestion about my project. > Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > sincerelyJingJing > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > JingJing Chen > > Doctoral Program in Psychology, > > Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > Sciences, > > University of Tsukuba > > E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > > E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sun Aug 24 11:13:38 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 14:13:38 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> Message-ID: Hi Andy and Everyone, Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the University of Wisconsin. igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Robert, > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at Highlander in > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught consensus > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on forcing students > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an African student at > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which Horton based > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus decision > making. I think it may have come under the heading of "conflict > resolution". What I don't have is any independent corroboration of Angeline > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what he learnt at > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of decision-making. > Mainly about bonding. > > Any thoughts? > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Robert Lake wrote: > >> Hi Andy, >> Yes I do. Start with this . >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton >> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >> and the biography of Septima Clark. >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. >> >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles >> Horton and Paulo Freire >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >> >> More Later, >> Robert Lake >> >> >> I will send more this afternoon. >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >> >> Andy >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >> *Associate Professor >> Social Foundations of Education >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> Georgia Southern University >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> P. O. Box 8144 >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From glassman.13@osu.edu Sun Aug 24 12:36:24 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:36:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXGyhCIGluIHNv?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?Y2lvLWN1bHR1cmFsIHJlc2VhcmNo?= In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <3B91542B0D4F274D871B38AA48E991F9027A9D@CIO-TNC-D2MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Jing Jing, I was just about to say the same thing, not only Paolo Freire but also Orlando Fals Borda and his concept of vivencia. It is interesting, I was just having a talk with a student about the two different perspectives of what many have come to call critical theory (although I don't think Freire or Fals Borda or Budd Hall ever referred to participatory action research in that way). There is the more Latino/Latina pan-African perspective that seems more based in hope and possibility, and there is what seems to me a more European perspective that is more angry and cynical (I want to emphasize that this just my view right now). Good luck on your project. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 1:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: About ?hope ? in socio-cultural research Dear Jing Jing, I am so glad to hear of your interest in hope as it relates to the socio-cultural framework in education. You might want to look at *Pedagogy of Hope* by Paulo Freire, and *The Revolution of Hope: Toward a Humanized Technology* by Erich Fromm Also you can read the introduction to this book for a little more specific application of Freire's work to the present day. https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/1476-we-saved-the-best-for-you.pdf This project seems really significant in the context of present and future Japan. Let us know if we can help more specifically. *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > Dear XMAL community: > My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. > I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research > are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful > for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me > suggestion about my project. > Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > sincerelyJingJing > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > JingJing Chen > > Doctoral Program in Psychology, > > Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > Sciences, > > University of Tsukuba > > E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > > E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 24 14:01:59 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 15:01:59 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> Message-ID: I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent Robert. Here is full link: http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search Fantastic resource! Thanks, greg On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi Andy and Everyone, > Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the University > of Wisconsin. > > > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Robert, > > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at Highlander > in > > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught consensus > > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on forcing > students > > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an African student > at > > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which Horton based > > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus decision > > making. I think it may have come under the heading of "conflict > > resolution". What I don't have is any independent corroboration of > Angeline > > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what he learnt at > > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of decision-making. > > Mainly about bonding. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Robert Lake wrote: > > > >> Hi Andy, > >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> > >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> > >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles > >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> > >> More Later, > >> Robert Lake > >> > >> > >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what > >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off > >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other > >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were > >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> > >> Andy > >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> *Associate Professor > >> Social Foundations of Education > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> Georgia Southern University > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 24 14:09:26 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 15:09:26 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: JingJing, You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play would be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a population in New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are researching. I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that hope itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think she would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this thread. -greg On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > Dear XMAL community: > My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. > I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research > are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful > for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me > suggestion about my project. > Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > sincerelyJingJing > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > JingJing Chen > > Doctoral Program in Psychology, > > Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > Sciences, > > University of Tsukuba > > E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > > E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ewall@umich.edu Sun Aug 24 14:55:07 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:55:07 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> JingJing Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' Ed Wall On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > JingJing, > You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play would > be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a population in > New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are > researching. > > I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that hope > itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think she > would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of > becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just > making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this thread. > > -greg > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > >> Dear XMAL community: >> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. >> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >> published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful >> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >> suggestion about my project. >> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >> sincerelyJingJing >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> JingJing Chen >> >> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >> >> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >> Sciences, >> >> University of Tsukuba >> >> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >> >> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sun Aug 24 16:28:01 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:28:01 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Hi again everyone, I also think that Michael Cole's (1996 notion of prolepsis in his book *Cultural Psychology* is certainly a solid source of hope or possibility as mentioned earlier. I have linked the page from this book on prolepsis. books.google.com/books?id=FjWfo2u_3OoC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=michael+cole+prolepsis&source=bl&ots=kUgynH_M9o&sig=TCbQP10y-VMwfDL7aklCXWoZdWM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c3P6U9r0Oo-syATT8oCwCw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=michael cole prolepsis&f=false On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > JingJing > > Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion > involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the dynamism > of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a deep-seated > human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I am sure he > doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think he > necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, > Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: > 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' > > Ed Wall > > On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > JingJing, > > You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play would > > be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a population > in > > New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are > > researching. > > > > I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that hope > > itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think > she > > would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of > > becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just > > making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this > thread. > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? > wrote: > > > >> Dear XMAL community: > >> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > >> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some > help. > >> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > >> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > >> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research > >> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > >> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > >> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > >> published work about hope or any relational research will be very > helpful > >> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me > >> suggestion about my project. > >> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > >> sincerelyJingJing > >> > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> JingJing Chen > >> > >> Doctoral Program in Psychology, > >> > >> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > >> Sciences, > >> > >> University of Tsukuba > >> > >> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > >> > >> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sun Aug 24 16:31:02 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:31:02 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Let's try that link again :-) http://books.google.com/books?id=FjWfo2u_3OoC&pg=PA183&dq=michael+cole+prolepsis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZHX6U4XFKoWLyAS-24HgDQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=michael%20cole%20prolepsis&f=false On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > Hi again everyone, > I also think that Michael Cole's (1996 notion of prolepsis > in his book *Cultural Psychology* is certainly a solid > source of hope or possibility as mentioned earlier. > I have linked the page from this book on prolepsis. > > > books.google.com/books?id=FjWfo2u_3OoC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=michael+cole+prolepsis&source=bl&ots=kUgynH_M9o&sig=TCbQP10y-VMwfDL7aklCXWoZdWM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c3P6U9r0Oo-syATT8oCwCw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=michael > cole prolepsis&f=false > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > >> JingJing >> >> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion >> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the dynamism >> of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a deep-seated >> human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I am sure he >> doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think he >> necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, >> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: >> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' >> >> Ed Wall >> >> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> > JingJing, >> > You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play >> would >> > be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a >> population in >> > New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are >> > researching. >> > >> > I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that >> hope >> > itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think >> she >> > would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of >> > becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just >> > making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this >> thread. >> > >> > -greg >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? >> wrote: >> > >> >> Dear XMAL community: >> >> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >> >> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some >> help. >> >> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >> >> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >> >> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >> >> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >> >> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >> >> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >> >> published work about hope or any relational research will be very >> helpful >> >> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >> >> suggestion about my project. >> >> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >> >> sincerelyJingJing >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> JingJing Chen >> >> >> >> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >> >> >> >> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >> >> Sciences, >> >> >> >> University of Tsukuba >> >> >> >> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >> >> >> >> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > Assistant Professor >> > Department of Anthropology >> > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > Brigham Young University >> > Provo, UT 84602 >> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From ablunden@mira.net Sun Aug 24 17:29:09 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:29:09 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> Message-ID: <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need is in those boxes. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent Robert. > > Here is full link: > > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > Fantastic resource! > > Thanks, > greg > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake > > wrote: > > Hi Andy and Everyone, > Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the > University > of Wisconsin. > > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Robert, > > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at > Highlander in > > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught consensus > > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on > forcing students > > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an African > student at > > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which Horton based > > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus decision > > making. I think it may have come under the heading of "conflict > > resolution". What I don't have is any independent corroboration > of Angeline > > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what he learnt at > > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of > decision-making. > > Mainly about bonding. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > Robert Lake wrote: > > > >> Hi Andy, > >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> > >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> > >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this > afternoon. > >> > >> > >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue > between Myles > >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> > >> More Later, > >> Robert Lake > >> > >> > >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what > >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off > >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other > >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what > they were > >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> > >> Andy > >> -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> *Associate Professor > >> Social Foundations of Education > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> Georgia Southern University > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu Sun Aug 24 19:55:07 2014 From: mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu (Zavala, Miguel) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 02:55:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXGyhCIGluIHNv?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?Y2lvLWN1bHR1cmFsIHJlc2VhcmNo?= In-Reply-To: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Jing Jing, I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in Historical Materialism. You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is generated in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' from it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that very marginalization / oppression. I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure here, hope is mediation. Miguel On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" wrote: >JingJing > > Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion >involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the >dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a >deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I >am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think >he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, >Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: >'Paul Riceour on Hope.' > >Ed Wall > >On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> JingJing, >> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play >>would >> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a >>population in >> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are >> researching. >> >> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that >>hope >> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think >>she >> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of >> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just >> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this >>thread. >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? >>wrote: >> >>> Dear XMAL community: >>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some >>>help. >>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very >>>helpful >>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >>> suggestion about my project. >>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >>> sincerelyJingJing >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> JingJing Chen >>> >>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >>> >>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >>> Sciences, >>> >>> University of Tsukuba >>> >>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >>> >>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From goncu@uic.edu Sun Aug 24 19:57:32 2014 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:57:32 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> Message-ID: <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need is in > those boxes. :) > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent Robert. >> >> Here is full link: >> >> http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search >> >> >> Fantastic resource! >> >> Thanks, >> greg >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake >> > >> wrote: >> >> Hi Andy and Everyone, >> Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the >> University >> of Wisconsin. >> >> igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: >> >> > Robert, >> > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at >> Highlander in >> > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught consensus >> > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on >> forcing students >> > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an African >> student at >> > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which Horton >> based >> > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus >> decision >> > making. I think it may have come under the heading of "conflict >> > resolution". What I don't have is any independent corroboration >> of Angeline >> > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what he learnt >> at >> > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of >> decision-making. >> > Mainly about bonding. >> > >> > Any thoughts? >> > Andy >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> > >> > >> > Robert Lake wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Andy, >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >> >> >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >> >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >> >> >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this >> afternoon. >> >> >> >> >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue >> between Myles >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >> >> >> >> More Later, >> >> Robert Lake >> >> >> >> >> >> I will send more this afternoon. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >> > >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, >> what >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed >> off >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any >> other >> >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what >> they were >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >> >> *Associate Professor >> >> Social Foundations of Education >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> >> Georgia Southern University >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> >> P. O. Box 8144 >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor >> Social Foundations of Education >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> Georgia Southern University >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> P. O. Box 8144 >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal Professor Emeritus, University of Illinois at Chicago College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Aug 24 21:23:23 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 22:23:23 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: and I started watching this nice special titled "Myles Horton: Radical Hillbilly": http://vimeo.com/30650519 It is a Bill Moyers journal and the nice part about it is most of it is Moyers interviewing Horton. From what little I know, it seems to give a very good sense for the man. -greg On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Goncu, Artin wrote: > > > Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag > > > On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) > > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need is in > > those boxes. :) > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent Robert. > >> > >> Here is full link: > >> > >> > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > >> < > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > >> > >> Fantastic resource! > >> > >> Thanks, > >> greg > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Andy and Everyone, > >> Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the > >> University > >> of Wisconsin. > >> > >> > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > >> < > http://igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden >> > wrote: > >> > >> > Robert, > >> > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at > >> Highlander in > >> > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught consensus > >> > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on > >> forcing students > >> > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an African > >> student at > >> > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which Horton > >> based > >> > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus > >> decision > >> > making. I think it may have come under the heading of "conflict > >> > resolution". What I don't have is any independent corroboration > >> of Angeline > >> > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what he learnt > >> at > >> > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of > >> decision-making. > >> > Mainly about bonding. > >> > > >> > Any thoughts? > >> > Andy > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > *Andy Blunden* > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Robert Lake wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Andy, > >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> >> > >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> >> > >> >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> >> > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> >> > >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this > >> afternoon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue > >> between Myles > >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> >> > >> >> More Later, > >> >> Robert Lake > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > >> >> >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, > >> what > >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed > >> off > >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any > >> other > >> >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what > >> they were > >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> >> > >> >> Andy > >> >> -- > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> ------------ > >> >> *Andy Blunden* > >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> >> *Associate Professor > >> >> Social Foundations of Education > >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> >> Georgia Southern University > >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > >> Social Foundations of Education > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> Georgia Southern University > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 24 21:29:14 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:29:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: To add to the suggestions-- I recommend that you find a copy of "The Principle of Hope" by Maurice Bloch. Parts of it are at marxists.org but a reading of the whole would be worth everyone's while. mike On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel < mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > Jing Jing, > > I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are > cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in > Historical Materialism. > > You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates > other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is generated > in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The > experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' from > it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that very > marginalization / oppression. > > I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always > present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of > possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure > here, hope is mediation. > > Miguel > > > > On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" wrote: > > >JingJing > > > > Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion > >involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the > >dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a > >deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I > >am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think > >he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, > >Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: > >'Paul Riceour on Hope.' > > > >Ed Wall > > > >On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > >> JingJing, > >> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play > >>would > >> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a > >>population in > >> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are > >> researching. > >> > >> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that > >>hope > >> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think > >>she > >> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of > >> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just > >> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this > >>thread. > >> > >> -greg > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? > >>wrote: > >> > >>> Dear XMAL community: > >>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > >>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some > >>>help. > >>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > >>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > >>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research > >>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > >>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > >>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > >>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very > >>>helpful > >>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me > >>> suggestion about my project. > >>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > >>> sincerelyJingJing > >>> > >>> > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> JingJing Chen > >>> > >>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, > >>> > >>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > >>> Sciences, > >>> > >>> University of Tsukuba > >>> > >>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > >>> > >>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 25 03:31:45 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:31:45 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: <53FB1091.7080503@mira.net> Thanks so much for this, Greg, Listening to the guy (it took me all day to get through this 2 hour video!) it comes across much clearer than I could get it from various texts. Around the 48 min mark he tells how this tough union group came up to Highlander to work through a problem they had, and they came to Horton and said they wanted him to make the decision for them because they couldn't resolve it. Horton refused. So they put a gun to his head to make their point. Still he refused. I was looking for where/how he *taught* collective decision-making, but it is clear now, by just insisting that people "take charge of their own lives" and demanding that while at the Center they run the whole place, together, and refusing ever to make a decision or tell them what ought to be done, they learnt how to make collective decisions, in their own way. In the autumn of 1959, when the students who were later to create SNCC came to Highlander (as opposed to the unionists CIO had been sending), this had the particularly spectacular outcomes which I am interested in. Sorry to be a little cryptic, but it's a work in progress. Thank you Robert and Peg and Greg for your assistance. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > and I started watching this nice special titled "Myles Horton: Radical > Hillbilly": > http://vimeo.com/30650519 > > It is a Bill Moyers journal and the nice part about it is most of it > is Moyers interviewing Horton. From what little I know, it seems to > give a very good sense for the man. > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Goncu, Artin > wrote: > > > > Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag > > > On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) > > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need > is in > > those boxes. :) > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent > Robert. > >> > >> Here is full link: > >> > >> > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > >> > > > >> > >> Fantastic resource! > >> > >> Thanks, > >> greg > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake > >> > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Andy and Everyone, > >> Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the > >> University > >> of Wisconsin. > >> > >> > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > >> > > > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden > > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> > Robert, > >> > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at > >> Highlander in > >> > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught > consensus > >> > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on > >> forcing students > >> > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an > African > >> student at > >> > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which > Horton > >> based > >> > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus > >> decision > >> > making. I think it may have come under the heading of > "conflict > >> > resolution". What I don't have is any independent > corroboration > >> of Angeline > >> > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what > he learnt > >> at > >> > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of > >> decision-making. > >> > Mainly about bonding. > >> > > >> > Any thoughts? > >> > Andy > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > *Andy Blunden* > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Robert Lake wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Andy, > >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> >> > >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> >> > >> >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> >> > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > >> >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> >> > 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> >> > >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this > >> afternoon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue > >> between Myles > >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> >> > >> >> More Later, > >> >> Robert Lake > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > >> > > >> >> ablunden@mira.net > >>> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander > Center, > >> what > >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also > rushed > >> off > >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there > were any > >> other > >> >> sources of information about it, that would be > helpful. I'm > >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what > >> they were > >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> >> > >> >> Andy > >> >> -- > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> ------------ > >> >> *Andy Blunden* > >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> >> *Associate Professor > >> >> Social Foundations of Education > >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> >> Georgia Southern University > >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest > Group > >> >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > >> Social Foundations of Education > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> Georgia Southern University > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >> Assistant Professor > >> Department of Anthropology > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >> Brigham Young University > >> Provo, UT 84602 > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal > Professor Emeritus, > University of Illinois at Chicago > College of Education M/C 147 > 1040 W. Harrison St. > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From peg.griffin@att.net Mon Aug 25 05:38:35 2014 From: peg.griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 05:38:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <53FB1091.7080503@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <53FB1091.7080503@mira.net> Message-ID: <1408970315.73985.YahooMailNeo@web180904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> In the precis you gave of the interview, Andy, I see clearly that it fits into Luria's dual stimulation method and more generally into development in crises/critical moments. PG On Monday, August 25, 2014 6:33 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: Thanks so much for this, Greg, Listening to the guy (it took me all day to get through this 2 hour video!) it comes across much clearer than I could get it from various texts. Around the 48 min mark he tells how this tough union group came up to Highlander to work through a problem they had, and they came to Horton and said they wanted him to make the decision for them because they couldn't resolve it. Horton refused. So they put a gun to his head to make their point. Still he refused. I was looking for where/how he *taught* collective decision-making, but it is clear now, by just insisting that people "take charge of their own lives" and demanding that while at the Center they run the whole place, together, and refusing ever to make a decision or tell them what ought to be done, they learnt how to make collective decisions, in their own way. In the autumn of 1959, when the students who were later to create SNCC came to Highlander (as opposed to the unionists CIO had been sending), this had the particularly spectacular outcomes which I am interested in. Sorry to be a little cryptic, but it's a work in progress. Thank you Robert and Peg and Greg for your assistance. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > and I started watching this nice special titled "Myles Horton: Radical > Hillbilly": > http://vimeo.com/30650519 > > It is a Bill Moyers journal and the nice part about it is most of it > is Moyers interviewing Horton. From what little I know, it seems to > give a very good sense for the man. > > -greg > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Goncu, Artin > wrote: > > > >? ? Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag > > >? ? On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >? ? > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) >? ? > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need >? ? is in >? ? > those boxes. :) >? ? > Andy >? ? > >? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >? ? > *Andy Blunden* >? ? > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >? ? >? ? > >? ? > >? ? > Greg Thompson wrote: >? ? >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent >? ? Robert. >? ? >> >? ? >> Here is full link: >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search >? ? >? ? >> >? ? ? ? > >? ? >> >? ? >> Fantastic resource! >? ? >> >? ? >> Thanks, >? ? >> greg >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake >? ? >> ? ? >? ? ? ? >> >? ? >> wrote: >? ? >> >? ? >>? ? Hi Andy and Everyone, >? ? >>? ? Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the >? ? >>? ? University >? ? >>? ? of Wisconsin. >? ? >> >? ? >>? >? ? ? igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search >? ? >? ? >>? >? ? ? ? ? > >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? >>? ? On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden >? ? >? ? >>? ? >> wrote: >? ? >> >? ? >>? ? > Robert, >? ? >>? ? > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at >? ? >>? ? Highlander in >? ? >>? ? > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught >? ? consensus >? ? >>? ? > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on >? ? >>? ? forcing students >? ? >>? ? > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an >? ? African >? ? >>? ? student at >? ? >>? ? > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which >? ? Horton >? ? >> based >? ? >>? ? > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus >? ? >> decision >? ? >>? ? > making. I think it may have come under the heading of >? ? "conflict >? ? >>? ? > resolution". What I don't have is any independent >? ? corroboration >? ? >>? ? of Angeline >? ? >>? ? > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what >? ? he learnt >? ? >> at >? ? >>? ? > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of >? ? >>? ? decision-making. >? ? >>? ? > Mainly about bonding. >? ? >>? ? > >? ? >>? ? > Any thoughts? >? ? >>? ? > Andy >? ? >>? ? > >? ? >>? >? ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >? ? >>? ? > *Andy Blunden* >? ? >>? ? > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >? ? >? ? >>? ? >? ? >>? ? > >? ? >>? ? > >? ? >>? ? > Robert Lake wrote: >? ? >>? ? > >? ? >>? ? >> Hi Andy, >? ? >>? ? >> Yes I do. Start with this . >? ? >>? ? >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> And this biography of Myles Horton >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >? ? >>? ? >> and the biography of Septima Clark. >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >>? http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >? ? >>? ? >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >? ? >>? ? >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >? ? ? ? >>? ? >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this >? ? >>? ? afternoon. >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue >? ? >>? ? between Myles >? ? >>? ? >> Horton and Paulo Freire >? ? >>? ? >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> More Later, >? ? >>? ? >> Robert Lake >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> I will send more this afternoon. >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >? ? >>? ? >? ? > ? ? >>? ? >> ablunden@mira.net >? ? >>> wrote: >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >>? ? Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander >? ? Center, >? ? >> what >? ? >>? ? >>? ? used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >? ? >>? ? >>? ? The people there are very helpful, but they're also >? ? rushed >? ? >> off >? ? >>? ? >>? ? their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there >? ? were any >? ? >> other >? ? >>? ? >>? ? sources of information about it, that would be >? ? helpful. I'm >? ? >>? ? >>? ? particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what >? ? >>? ? they were >? ? >>? ? >>? ? doing in the 1950s and 60s. >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >>? ? Andy >? ? >>? ? >>? ? -- >? ? >>? ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------ >? ? >>? ? >> ------------ >? ? >>? ? >>? ? *Andy Blunden* >? ? >>? ? >>? ? http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >? ? >? ? >>? ? >? ? >>? ? >>? ? >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> -- >? ? >>? ? >> *Robert Lake? Ed.D. >? ? >>? ? >> *Associate Professor >? ? >>? ? >> Social Foundations of Education >? ? >>? ? >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >? ? >>? ? >> Georgia Southern University >? ? >>? ? >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest >? ? Group >? ? >>? ? >> P. O. Box 8144 >? ? >>? ? >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >? ? >? ? >>? ? >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >? ? >? ? >>? ? >> Statesboro, GA? 30460 >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? >> >? ? >>? ? > >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? >>? ? -- >? ? >> >? ? >>? ? *Robert Lake? Ed.D.*Associate Professor >? ? >>? ? Social Foundations of Education >? ? >>? ? Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >? ? >>? ? Georgia Southern University >? ? >>? ? Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >? ? >>? ? P. O. Box 8144 >? ? >>? ? Phone: (912) 478-0355 >? ? >? ? >>? ? Fax: (912) 478-5382 >? ? >>? ? Statesboro, GA? 30460 >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? >> >? ? >> -- >? ? >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >? ? >> Assistant Professor >? ? >> Department of Anthropology >? ? >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >? ? >> Brigham Young University >? ? >> Provo, UT 84602 >? ? >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >? ? > >? ? > > > >? ? Artin Goncu, Ph.D >? ? Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal >? ? Professor Emeritus, >? ? University of Illinois at Chicago >? ? College of Education M/C 147 >? ? 1040 W. Harrison St. >? ? Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 25 05:57:28 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:57:28 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <1408970315.73985.YahooMailNeo@web180904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <53FB1091.7080503@mira.net> <1408970315.73985.YahooMailNeo@web180904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53FB32B8.7010100@mira.net> he, he! yes. His approach is quite consonant with CHAT principles! ... but not many school teachers have the pupils pointing a gun at their head demanding the teacher stick to the 3Rs, or something. :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Peg Griffin wrote: > In the precis you gave of the interview, Andy, I see clearly that it > fits into Luria's dual stimulation method and more generally into > development in crises/critical moments. > PG > > > On Monday, August 25, 2014 6:33 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Thanks so much for this, Greg, > Listening to the guy (it took me all day to get through this 2 hour > video!) it comes across much clearer than I could get it from various > texts. > Around the 48 min mark he tells how this tough union group came up to > Highlander to work through a problem they had, and they came to Horton > and said they wanted him to make the decision for them because they > couldn't resolve it. Horton refused. So they put a gun to his head to > make their point. Still he refused. > I was looking for where/how he *taught* collective decision-making, but > it is clear now, by just insisting that people "take charge of their own > lives" and demanding that while at the Center they run the whole place, > together, and refusing ever to make a decision or tell them what ought > to be done, they learnt how to make collective decisions, in their own > way. > In the autumn of 1959, when the students who were later to create SNCC > came to Highlander (as opposed to the unionists CIO had been sending), > this had the particularly spectacular outcomes which I am interested in. > Sorry to be a little cryptic, but it's a work in progress. > Thank you Robert and Peg and Greg for your assistance. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > and I started watching this nice special titled "Myles Horton: Radical > > Hillbilly": > > http://vimeo.com/30650519 > > > > It is a Bill Moyers journal and the nice part about it is most of it > > is Moyers interviewing Horton. From what little I know, it seems to > > give a very good sense for the man. > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Goncu, Artin > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag > > > > > > On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) > > > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need > > is in > > > those boxes. :) > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent > > Robert. > > >> > > >> Here is full link: > > >> > > >> > > > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> Fantastic resource! > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> greg > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Andy and Everyone, > > >> Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the > > >> University > > >> of Wisconsin. > > >> > > >> > > > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden > > > > > > >> > >>> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Robert, > > >> > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at > > >> Highlander in > > >> > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught > > consensus > > >> > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on > > >> forcing students > > >> > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an > > African > > >> student at > > >> > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which > > Horton > > >> based > > >> > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus > > >> decision > > >> > making. I think it may have come under the heading of > > "conflict > > >> > resolution". What I don't have is any independent > > corroboration > > >> of Angeline > > >> > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what > > he learnt > > >> at > > >> > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of > > >> decision-making. > > >> > Mainly about bonding. > > >> > > > >> > Any thoughts? > > >> > Andy > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > *Andy Blunden* > > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Robert Lake wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Hi Andy, > > >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . > > >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > > >> >> > > >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton > > >> >> > > >> >> > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > > >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > > >> >> > > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > > >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > > >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > > > >> >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > > >> >> > > 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this > > >> afternoon. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue > > >> between Myles > > >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire > > >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > > >> >> > > >> >> More Later, > > >> >> Robert Lake > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I will send more this afternoon. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> >> ablunden@mira.net > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander > > Center, > > >> what > > >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > > >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also > > rushed > > >> off > > >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there > > were any > > >> other > > >> >> sources of information about it, that would be > > helpful. I'm > > >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what > > >> they were > > >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > > >> >> > > >> >> Andy > > >> >> -- > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> >> ------------ > > >> >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> -- > > >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> >> *Associate Professor > > >> >> Social Foundations of Education > > >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > >> >> Georgia Southern University > > >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest > > Group > > >> >> P. O. Box 8144 > > >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > > >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > > >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > > >> Social Foundations of Education > > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > >> Georgia Southern University > > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > > >> P. O. Box 8144 > > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >> Assistant Professor > > >> Department of Anthropology > > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >> Brigham Young University > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Mon Aug 25 06:07:57 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:07:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0618366A-2B17-446D-92E4-4FD9E94C20AA@gmail.com> I like "the quiet corners of mediation," here. One can look at what is in those quiet corners, at least according to Engestrom. On the one hand, history and how it changes as we live through it (and change it ourselves); on the other hand, what kinds of tools or equipment we've got to work with (and how those change as we get creative). Finally, who is with us. Helena Worthen hworthen@illinois.edu helenaworthen@gmail.com On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel wrote: > Jing Jing, > > I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are > cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in > Historical Materialism. > > You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates > other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is generated > in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The > experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' from > it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that very > marginalization / oppression. > > I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always > present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of > possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure > here, hope is mediation. > > Miguel > > > > On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" wrote: > >> JingJing >> >> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion >> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the >> dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a >> deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I >> am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think >> he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, >> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: >> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' >> >> Ed Wall >> >> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >>> JingJing, >>> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play >>> would >>> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a >>> population in >>> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are >>> researching. >>> >>> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that >>> hope >>> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think >>> she >>> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of >>> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just >>> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this >>> thread. >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear XMAL community: >>>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >>>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some >>>> help. >>>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >>>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >>>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >>>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >>>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >>>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >>>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very >>>> helpful >>>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >>>> suggestion about my project. >>>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >>>> sincerelyJingJing >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> JingJing Chen >>>> >>>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >>>> >>>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >>>> Sciences, >>>> >>>> University of Tsukuba >>>> >>>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >>>> >>>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Aug 25 08:17:22 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:17:22 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <53FB32B8.7010100@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <53FB1091.7080503@mira.net> <1408970315.73985.YahooMailNeo@web180904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53FB32B8.7010100@mira.net> Message-ID: ?Peg and Andy, RE: chat and crises, Horton also has a moment where he notes the importance of conflict (this is when Moyers asks him about violence). He says that conflict is always there and in a sense it is the starting point. Andy, in his conversation with Freire, there is an interesting discussion about "experts". Horton is not as cynical about expert knowledge as Freire. Horton seems to see it more as a tool to be used by the local community in their collective decision making. He describes bringing a very concerned and well intentioned lawyer into Highlander to explain to the parents what their options are. After the lawyer explained their options he started to tell them what he thought they should do. At that point, Horton describes how he had to forcibly take the guy by the arm and haul him out of the room so that this expert didn't make the decisions for those who were most familiar with the situation. Horton said as he was pulling the guy out of the room, the guy kept right on talking to the very last. Good intentions... Here is a link to the pdf of the Freire-Horton book We Make the Road by Walking (what a great title!): http://codkashacabka.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/we-make-the-road-by-walking-myles-and-paolo-freie-book.pdf Made some great Sunday reading. -greg? On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > he, he! yes. His approach is quite consonant with CHAT principles! ... but > not many school teachers have the pupils pointing a gun at their head > demanding the teacher stick to the 3Rs, or something. :) > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > >> In the precis you gave of the interview, Andy, I see clearly that it fits >> into Luria's dual stimulation method and more generally into development in >> crises/critical moments. >> PG >> >> >> On Monday, August 25, 2014 6:33 AM, Andy Blunden >> wrote: >> >> >> Thanks so much for this, Greg, >> Listening to the guy (it took me all day to get through this 2 hour >> video!) it comes across much clearer than I could get it from various >> texts. >> Around the 48 min mark he tells how this tough union group came up to >> Highlander to work through a problem they had, and they came to Horton >> and said they wanted him to make the decision for them because they >> couldn't resolve it. Horton refused. So they put a gun to his head to >> make their point. Still he refused. >> I was looking for where/how he *taught* collective decision-making, but >> it is clear now, by just insisting that people "take charge of their own >> lives" and demanding that while at the Center they run the whole place, >> together, and refusing ever to make a decision or tell them what ought >> to be done, they learnt how to make collective decisions, in their own >> way. >> In the autumn of 1959, when the students who were later to create SNCC >> came to Highlander (as opposed to the unionists CIO had been sending), >> this had the particularly spectacular outcomes which I am interested in. >> Sorry to be a little cryptic, but it's a work in progress. >> Thank you Robert and Peg and Greg for your assistance. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Greg Thompson wrote: >> > and I started watching this nice special titled "Myles Horton: Radical >> > Hillbilly": >> > http://vimeo.com/30650519 >> > >> > It is a Bill Moyers journal and the nice part about it is most of it >> > is Moyers interviewing Horton. From what little I know, it seems to >> > give a very good sense for the man. >> > >> > -greg >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Goncu, Artin > goncu@uic.edu> >> > >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag >> > >> > >> > On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) >> > > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that everything I need >> > is in >> > > those boxes. :) >> > > Andy >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> > > *Andy Blunden* >> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > 7Eandy/> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Greg Thompson wrote: >> > >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link you sent >> > Robert. >> > >> >> > >> Here is full link: >> > >> >> > >> >> > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search < >> http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search> >> > > c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search < >> http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search>> >> > >> >> > > c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search < >> http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search> >> > > c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search < >> http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search>>> >> > >> >> > >> Fantastic resource! >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, >> > >> greg >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake >> > >> >> > > georgiasouthern.edu>> >> > > georgiasouthern.edu> >> > > georgiasouthern.edu>>>> >> >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Hi Andy and Everyone, >> > >> Here is the link to the digital archives for Highlander at the >> > >> University >> > >> of Wisconsin. >> > >> >> > >> > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c= >> wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid& >> q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search >> > > c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search < >> http://igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search>> >> > >> > > edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives& >> type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+ >> papers&location=all&Submit=Search > edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives& >> type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+ >> papers&location=all&Submit=Search> >> >> > > c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search < >> http://igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx? >> c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+ >> Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search>>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden >> > > ablunden@mira.net > >> > >> > ablunden@mira.net >>> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > Robert, >> > >> > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about her time at >> > >> Highlander in >> > >> > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught >> > consensus >> > >> > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of emphasis on >> > >> forcing students >> > >> > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir from an >> > African >> > >> student at >> > >> > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on which >> > Horton >> > >> based >> > >> > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in consensus >> > >> decision >> > >> > making. I think it may have come under the heading of >> > "conflict >> > >> > resolution". What I don't have is any independent >> > corroboration >> > >> of Angeline >> > >> > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes about what >> > he learnt >> > >> at >> > >> > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of >> > >> decision-making. >> > >> > Mainly about bonding. >> > >> > >> > >> > Any thoughts? >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------------------ >> > >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ < >> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Robert Lake wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> Hi Andy, >> > >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . >> > >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >> > >> >> >> > >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >> > >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >> > >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >> > >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> > > > >> >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >> > >> >> >> > 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this >> > >> afternoon. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue >> > >> between Myles >> > >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire >> > >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> More Later, >> > >> >> Robert Lake >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> I will send more this afternoon. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >> > >> > ablunden@mira.net > >> > > ablunden@mira.net >> > >> >> > >> >> ablunden@mira.net > ablunden@mira.net > >> > > ablunden@mira.net >>>> wrote: >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander >> > Center, >> > >> what >> > >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >> > >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also >> > rushed >> > >> off >> > >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there >> > were any >> > >> other >> > >> >> sources of information about it, that would be >> > helpful. I'm >> > >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what >> > >> they were >> > >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Andy >> > >> >> -- >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> >> ------------ >> > >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> > >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ < >> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> -- >> > >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >> > >> >> *Associate Professor >> > >> >> Social Foundations of Education >> > >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> > >> >> Georgia Southern University >> > >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest >> > Group >> > >> >> P. O. Box 8144 >> > >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> > >> > >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> > >> > >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> >> > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor >> > >> Social Foundations of Education >> > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> > >> Georgia Southern University >> > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> > >> P. O. Box 8144 >> > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> > >> > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > >> Assistant Professor >> > >> Department of Anthropology >> > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > >> Brigham Young University >> > >> Provo, UT 84602 >> > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > Artin Goncu, Ph.D >> > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International Journal >> > Professor Emeritus, >> > University of Illinois at Chicago >> > College of Education M/C 147 >> > 1040 W. Harrison St. >> > Chicago, IL 60607 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > Assistant Professor >> > Department of Anthropology >> > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > Brigham Young University >> > Provo, UT 84602 >> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From jana@xs4all.nl Mon Aug 25 08:21:56 2014 From: jana@xs4all.nl (Jan Aukes) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:21:56 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXGyhCIGluIHNv?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?Y2lvLWN1bHR1cmFsIHJlc2VhcmNo?= In-Reply-To: References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: That should be Ernst Bloch, I suppose. > Op 25 aug. 2014 om 06:29 heeft mike cole het volgende geschreven: > > To add to the suggestions-- I recommend that you find a copy of "The > Principle of Hope" by Maurice Bloch. Parts of it are at marxists.org but > a reading of the whole would be worth everyone's while. > mike > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel < > mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: > >> Jing Jing, >> >> I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are >> cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in >> Historical Materialism. >> >> You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates >> other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is generated >> in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The >> experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' from >> it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that very >> marginalization / oppression. >> >> I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always >> present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of >> possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure >> here, hope is mediation. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >>> On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" wrote: >>> >>> JingJing >>> >>> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion >>> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the >>> dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a >>> deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I >>> am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think >>> he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, >>> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: >>> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' >>> >>> Ed Wall >>> >>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>> JingJing, >>>> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play >>>> would >>>> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a >>>> population in >>>> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are >>>> researching. >>>> >>>> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that >>>> hope >>>> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think >>>> she >>>> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of >>>> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just >>>> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this >>>> thread. >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear XMAL community: >>>>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >>>>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some >>>>> help. >>>>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >>>>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >>>>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >>>>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >>>>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >>>>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >>>>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very >>>>> helpful >>>>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >>>>> suggestion about my project. >>>>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >>>>> sincerelyJingJing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> JingJing Chen >>>>> >>>>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >>>>> >>>>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >>>>> Sciences, >>>>> >>>>> University of Tsukuba >>>>> >>>>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >>>>> >>>>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 25 08:23:55 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 01:23:55 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <53F9F6C8.9060009@mira.net> <53FA8355.5090807@mira.net> <692b777a46d26aa35d2b5f31f58047f8.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> <53FB1091.7080503@mira.net> <1408970315.73985.YahooMailNeo@web180904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53FB32B8.7010100@mira.net> Message-ID: <53FB550B.6070101@mira.net> Hopefully "Road Walking" will arrive here in the next day or two Greg. I do prefer a hard copy in my hand if I can get it. Yes, I was struck by his understanding of conflict as ever-present and ineradicable, but bringing it to the surface makes it possible to transform the situation. All very Hegelian, :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > ?Peg and Andy, > RE: chat and crises, Horton also has a moment where he notes the > importance of conflict (this is when Moyers asks him about violence). > He says that conflict is always there and in a sense it is the > starting point. > > Andy, in his conversation with Freire, there is an interesting > discussion about "experts". Horton is not as cynical about expert > knowledge as Freire. Horton seems to see it more as a tool to be used > by the local community in their collective decision making. He > describes bringing a very concerned and well intentioned lawyer into > Highlander to explain to the parents what their options are. After the > lawyer explained their options he started to tell them what he thought > they should do. At that point, Horton describes how he had to forcibly > take the guy by the arm and haul him out of the room so that this > expert didn't make the decisions for those who were most familiar with > the situation. Horton said as he was pulling the guy out of the room, > the guy kept right on talking to the very last. > Good intentions... > > Here is a link to the pdf of the Freire-Horton book We Make the Road > by Walking (what a great title!): > http://codkashacabka.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/we-make-the-road-by-walking-myles-and-paolo-freie-book.pdf > Made some great Sunday reading. > -greg? > > > On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > he, he! yes. His approach is quite consonant with CHAT principles! > ... but not many school teachers have the pupils pointing a gun at > their head demanding the teacher stick to the 3Rs, or something. :) > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > Peg Griffin wrote: > > In the precis you gave of the interview, Andy, I see clearly > that it fits into Luria's dual stimulation method and more > generally into development in crises/critical moments. > PG > > > On Monday, August 25, 2014 6:33 AM, Andy Blunden > > wrote: > > > Thanks so much for this, Greg, > Listening to the guy (it took me all day to get through this 2 > hour > video!) it comes across much clearer than I could get it from > various texts. > Around the 48 min mark he tells how this tough union group > came up to > Highlander to work through a problem they had, and they came > to Horton > and said they wanted him to make the decision for them because > they > couldn't resolve it. Horton refused. So they put a gun to his > head to > make their point. Still he refused. > I was looking for where/how he *taught* collective > decision-making, but > it is clear now, by just insisting that people "take charge of > their own > lives" and demanding that while at the Center they run the > whole place, > together, and refusing ever to make a decision or tell them > what ought > to be done, they learnt how to make collective decisions, in > their own way. > In the autumn of 1959, when the students who were later to > create SNCC > came to Highlander (as opposed to the unionists CIO had been > sending), > this had the particularly spectacular outcomes which I am > interested in. > Sorry to be a little cryptic, but it's a work in progress. > Thank you Robert and Peg and Greg for your assistance. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > and I started watching this nice special titled "Myles > Horton: Radical > > Hillbilly": > > http://vimeo.com/30650519 > > > > It is a Bill Moyers journal and the nice part about it is > most of it > > is Moyers interviewing Horton. From what little I know, it > seems to > > give a very good sense for the man. > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Goncu, Artin > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes, this information is much appreciated. ag > > > > > > On Sun, August 24, 2014 7:29 pm, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Thanks Greg. That does work better. :) > > > Very tantalizing for me. I have no doubt that > everything I need > > is in > > > those boxes. :) > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > > >> I think a "d" was missing at the beginning of the link > you sent > > Robert. > > >> > > >> Here is full link: > > >> > > >> > > > http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >> > > >> Fantastic resource! > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> greg > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Robert Lake > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi Andy and Everyone, > > >> Here is the link to the digital archives for > Highlander at the > > >> University > > >> of Wisconsin. > > >> > > >> > > igicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi/f/findaid/findaid-idx?c=wiarchives&cc=wiarchives&type=simple&rgn=Entire+Finding+Aid&q1=myles+horton+papers&location=all&Submit=Search > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Andy Blunden > > > > > > >> > > >> > >>>> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Robert, > > >> > I have a memoir written by Angeline Butler about > her time at > > >> Highlander in > > >> > 1959 before joining SNCC and she reports being taught > > consensus > > >> > decision-making. I know Horton placed a lot of > emphasis on > > >> forcing students > > >> > to make their own decisions, and I have a memoir > from an > > African > > >> student at > > >> > the International Peoples College at Helsingor on > which > > Horton > > >> based > > >> > Highlander, which tells of a specific exercise in > consensus > > >> decision > > >> > making. I think it may have come under the heading of > > "conflict > > >> > resolution". What I don't have is any independent > > corroboration > > >> of Angeline > > >> > Butler's testimony and nor do Horton's notes > about what > > he learnt > > >> at > > >> > Helsingor mention conflict resolution or any kind of > > >> decision-making. > > >> > Mainly about bonding. > > >> > > > >> > Any thoughts? > > >> > Andy > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> > *Andy Blunden* > > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Robert Lake wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Hi Andy, > > >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . > > >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > > >> >> > > >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > > >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > > >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > > >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > > >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > > > >> >> > Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > > >> >> > > > 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will > send it this > > >> afternoon. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A > dialogue > > >> between Myles > > >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire > > >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > > >> >> > > >> >> More Later, > > >> >> Robert Lake > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I will send more this afternoon. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> ablunden@mira.net > > > > >> > > > > > > >>>>> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the > Highlander > > Center, > > >> what > > >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > > >> >> The people there are very helpful, but > they're also > > rushed > > >> off > > >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there > > were any > > >> other > > >> >> sources of information about it, that would be > > helpful. I'm > > >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar > with what > > >> they were > > >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > > >> >> > > >> >> Andy > > >> >> -- > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> >> ------------ > > >> >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> -- > > >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> >> *Associate Professor > > >> >> Social Foundations of Education > > >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > >> >> Georgia Southern University > > >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special > Interest > > Group > > >> >> P. O. Box 8144 > > >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > > > >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > > > >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor > > >> Social Foundations of Education > > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > >> Georgia Southern University > > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special > Interest Group > > >> P. O. Box 8144 > > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > > > > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > >> Assistant Professor > > >> Department of Anthropology > > >> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > >> Brigham Young University > > >> Provo, UT 84602 > > >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D > > Co-editor, Mind, Culture, and Activity:An International > Journal > > Professor Emeritus, > > University of Illinois at Chicago > > College of Education M/C 147 > > 1040 W. Harrison St. > > Chicago, IL 60607 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From jana@xs4all.nl Mon Aug 25 08:24:32 2014 From: jana@xs4all.nl (Jan Aukes) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:24:32 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXISEbKEJpbiBz?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?b2Npby1jdWx0dXJhbCByZXNlYXJjaA==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D0B9A3D-675E-4C6A-B9E8-5C031EC01E05@xs4all.nl> I like to add this link: http://www.wwwords.co.uk/rss/abstract.asp?j=pfie&aid=2720&doi=1 > Op 24 aug. 2014 om 16:57 heeft ? ?? het volgende geschreven: > > Dear XMAL community: > My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. > I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me suggestion about my project. > Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > sincerelyJingJing > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > JingJing Chen > > Doctoral Program in Psychology, > > Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > Sciences, > > University of Tsukuba > > E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > > E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Mon Aug 25 08:24:53 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 01:24:53 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXGyhCIGluIHNv?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?Y2lvLWN1bHR1cmFsIHJlc2VhcmNo?= In-Reply-To: References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: <53FB5545.5050208@mira.net> http://www.marxists.org/archive/bloch/index.htm and I can provide the PDF of the whole book on request. andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Jan Aukes wrote: > That should be Ernst Bloch, I suppose. > > >> Op 25 aug. 2014 om 06:29 heeft mike cole het volgende geschreven: >> >> To add to the suggestions-- I recommend that you find a copy of "The >> Principle of Hope" by Maurice Bloch. Parts of it are at marxists.org but >> a reading of the whole would be worth everyone's while. >> mike >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel < >> mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: >> >> >>> Jing Jing, >>> >>> I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are >>> cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in >>> Historical Materialism. >>> >>> You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates >>> other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is generated >>> in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The >>> experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' from >>> it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that very >>> marginalization / oppression. >>> >>> I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always >>> present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of >>> possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure >>> here, hope is mediation. >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" wrote: >>>> >>>> JingJing >>>> >>>> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion >>>> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the >>>> dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a >>>> deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I >>>> am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think >>>> he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, >>>> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: >>>> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' >>>> >>>> Ed Wall >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> JingJing, >>>>> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play >>>>> would >>>>> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a >>>>> population in >>>>> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are >>>>> researching. >>>>> >>>>> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that >>>>> hope >>>>> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think >>>>> she >>>>> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of >>>>> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just >>>>> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this >>>>> thread. >>>>> >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear XMAL community: >>>>>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >>>>>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some >>>>>> help. >>>>>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >>>>>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >>>>>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >>>>>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >>>>>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >>>>>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >>>>>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very >>>>>> helpful >>>>>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >>>>>> suggestion about my project. >>>>>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >>>>>> sincerelyJingJing >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> JingJing Chen >>>>>> >>>>>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >>>>>> >>>>>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >>>>>> Sciences, >>>>>> >>>>>> University of Tsukuba >>>>>> >>>>>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >>>>>> >>>>>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>> >>> >>> > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Aug 25 08:30:28 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:30:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: Thanks -- confusing generations of Blochs. The book remains highly recommended and my thanks for the correction. Mike On Monday, August 25, 2014, Jan Aukes wrote: > That should be Ernst Bloch, I suppose. > > > Op 25 aug. 2014 om 06:29 heeft mike cole > het volgende geschreven: > > > > To add to the suggestions-- I recommend that you find a copy of "The > > Principle of Hope" by Maurice Bloch. Parts of it are at marxists.org but > > a reading of the whole would be worth everyone's while. > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel < > > mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu > wrote: > > > >> Jing Jing, > >> > >> I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are > >> cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in > >> Historical Materialism. > >> > >> You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates > >> other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is > generated > >> in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The > >> experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' > from > >> it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that > very > >> marginalization / oppression. > >> > >> I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always > >> present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of > >> possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure > >> here, hope is mediation. > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" > wrote: > >>> > >>> JingJing > >>> > >>> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion > >>> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the > >>> dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a > >>> deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I > >>> am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't > think > >>> he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. > Anyway, > >>> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: > >>> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' > >>> > >>> Ed Wall > >>> > >>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>> > >>>> JingJing, > >>>> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play > >>>> would > >>>> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a > >>>> population in > >>>> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you > are > >>>> researching. > >>>> > >>>> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that > >>>> hope > >>>> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I > think > >>>> she > >>>> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of > >>>> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just > >>>> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this > >>>> thread. > >>>> > >>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Dear XMAL community: > >>>>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > >>>>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some > >>>>> help. > >>>>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > >>>>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > >>>>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous > research > >>>>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > >>>>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > >>>>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > >>>>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very > >>>>> helpful > >>>>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give > me > >>>>> suggestion about my project. > >>>>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > >>>>> sincerelyJingJing > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>> JingJing Chen > >>>>> > >>>>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, > >>>>> > >>>>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > >>>>> Sciences, > >>>>> > >>>>> University of Tsukuba > >>>>> > >>>>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > >>>>> > >>>>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 25 11:21:39 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:21:39 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXGyhCIGluIHNv?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?Y2lvLWN1bHR1cmFsIHJlc2VhcmNo?= In-Reply-To: <53FB5545.5050208@mira.net> References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> <53FB5545.5050208@mira.net> Message-ID: <6F232C54-D2A9-4784-B7F3-6E69A4BEAE02@gmail.com> Hi Andy, I would like the PDF. Henry On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:24 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > http://www.marxists.org/archive/bloch/index.htm > and I can provide the PDF of the whole book on request. > andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Jan Aukes wrote: >> That should be Ernst Bloch, I suppose. >> >> >>> Op 25 aug. 2014 om 06:29 heeft mike cole het volgende geschreven: >>> >>> To add to the suggestions-- I recommend that you find a copy of "The >>> Principle of Hope" by Maurice Bloch. Parts of it are at marxists.org but >>> a reading of the whole would be worth everyone's while. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel < >>> mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Jing Jing, >>>> >>>> I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are >>>> cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in >>>> Historical Materialism. >>>> >>>> You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates >>>> other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is generated >>>> in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The >>>> experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' from >>>> it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that very >>>> marginalization / oppression. >>>> >>>> I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always >>>> present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of >>>> possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure >>>> here, hope is mediation. >>>> >>>> Miguel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> JingJing >>>>> >>>>> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion >>>>> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the >>>>> dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a >>>>> deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I >>>>> am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't think >>>>> he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. Anyway, >>>>> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: >>>>> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' >>>>> >>>>> Ed Wall >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> JingJing, >>>>>> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play >>>>>> would >>>>>> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a >>>>>> population in >>>>>> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are >>>>>> researching. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that >>>>>> hope >>>>>> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think >>>>>> she >>>>>> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of >>>>>> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just >>>>>> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this >>>>>> thread. >>>>>> >>>>>> -greg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear XMAL community: >>>>>>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in >>>>>>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some >>>>>>> help. >>>>>>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students >>>>>>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most >>>>>>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research >>>>>>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, >>>>>>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >>>>>>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any >>>>>>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very >>>>>>> helpful >>>>>>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me >>>>>>> suggestion about my project. >>>>>>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >>>>>>> sincerelyJingJing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> JingJing Chen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >>>>>>> Sciences, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> University of Tsukuba >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Aug 25 11:44:42 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:44:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?About_=E3=80=8Chope_=E3=80=8D_in_socio-cultural_res?= =?utf-8?q?earch?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD16A2A-B6D4-4571-AD0E-217B7464CC70@eastsideinstitute.org> JingJing, I'm so glad Greg suggested Vygotsky at Work and Play to you since its publication in Japanese is happening in September and I notice you are at a Japanese university. Professor Moro is the translator and I assume you know him. As far as hope, I'm all for it! I think that creating environments for/being engaged in "becoming" creates hope. See the All Stars Project video entitled, Hopeless? "Nope" Less. My hope is that you agree that a socio-cultural approach to "hope" discovers something of what hope is, and is becoming, to the people you are studying. Good luck! Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Aug 24, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > JingJing, > You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play would be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a population in New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you are researching. > > I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that hope itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I think she would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this thread. > > -greg > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > Dear XMAL community: > My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. > I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me suggestion about my project. > Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > sincerelyJingJing > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > JingJing Chen > > Doctoral Program in Psychology, > > Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > Sciences, > > University of Tsukuba > > E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > > E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Aug 25 11:55:09 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:55:09 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?QWJvdXQg44CMaG9wZSDjgI3jgIBpbiBzb2Npby1jdWx0dXJh?= =?utf-8?q?l_research?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For more on-the-grouod explicit "hope-oriented" programs, see the work of Akom and D'Andrade at http://iseed.org from California, and, in particular, Duncan-Andrade, J. M. (2009). Note to educators: Hope required when growing roses in concrete. Harvard Educational Review, 79(2), 181-194. PDF Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > Dear XMAL community: > My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. > I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me suggestion about my project. > Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > sincerelyJingJing > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > JingJing Chen > > Doctoral Program in Psychology, > > Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > Sciences, > > University of Tsukuba > > E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > > E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Mon Aug 25 11:56:15 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:56:15 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Correction to link re "hope" project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D8A7534-7CFF-430D-A347-C4991B42F86C@eastsideinstitute.org> correction the link is http://iseeed.org Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Aug 25, 2014, at 2:55 PM, Lois Holzman wrote: > For more on-the-grouod explicit "hope-oriented" programs, see the work of Akom and D'Andrade at http://iseed.org from California, > and, in particular, Duncan-Andrade, J. M. (2009). Note to educators: Hope required when growing roses in concrete. Harvard Educational Review, 79(2), 181-194. PDF > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > >> Dear XMAL community: >> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. >> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me suggestion about my project. >> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >> sincerelyJingJing >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> JingJing Chen >> >> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >> >> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >> Sciences, >> >> University of Tsukuba >> >> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >> >> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> > From hshonerd@gmail.com Mon Aug 25 12:03:32 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:03:32 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXISEbKEJpbiBz?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?b2Npby1jdWx0dXJhbCByZXNlYXJjaA==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2EA78A-844D-465F-9293-3CCF05F5295A@gmail.com> I am new to your dialog, and like very much that I am entering when hope is the focus. My take: Hope confronts despair, and despair is depression's ground. Teaching is hope, so teaching confronts despair both individually and culturally. Bloch, as I read him, contrasts hope and fantasy. All of this hits me personally and professionally. xmca rocks! Henry Shonerd On Aug 25, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Lois Holzman wrote: > For more on-the-grouod explicit "hope-oriented" programs, see the work of Akom and D'Andrade at http://iseed.org from California, > and, in particular, Duncan-Andrade, J. M. (2009). Note to educators: Hope required when growing roses in concrete. Harvard Educational Review, 79(2), 181-194. PDF > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > >> Dear XMAL community: >> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. >> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me suggestion about my project. >> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >> sincerelyJingJing >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> JingJing Chen >> >> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >> >> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >> Sciences, >> >> University of Tsukuba >> >> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >> >> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> > From h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 25 13:36:58 2014 From: h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk (peter jones) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:36:58 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?b?QWJvdXQg44CMaG9wZSDjgI3jgIBpbiBzb2Npby1jdWx0dXJh?= =?utf-8?q?l_research?= In-Reply-To: <2F2EA78A-844D-465F-9293-3CCF05F5295A@gmail.com> References: <2F2EA78A-844D-465F-9293-3CCF05F5295A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1408999018.61767.YahooMailNeo@web171501.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Context is everything as the saying goes - and in hope it is easy to polarise. So....! It may be useful to take in the socio-medical dimensions as in the cultural presence-prevalence of other possibly related concepts such as 'fatalism' and hence religious beliefs of course. Gender and age must be other factors, but these may confound what you seek? May also beg the question: "Is the 'sick-role' still a factor?" Specific assessments may as Henry suggests provide insights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck_Hopelessness_Scale Hope must also be key component of self-stigma, a concept that might prevent people from seeking help: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23883668 http://www.psy-journal.com/article/S0165-1781%2811%2900390-8/abstract Corrigan PW, Larson JE, R?sch N (2009): Self-stigma and the ?why try? effect: impact on life goals and evidence-based practices. World Psychiatry. 8(2): 75?81. Education is as Henry also notes is fundamental in the shift to general literacy and ultimately self-efficacy. Hope is included within the Recovery STAR: Dickens G, Weleminsky J, Onifade Y, et al. (2012): Recovery Star: validating user recovery. The Psychiatrist Online 2012. 36:45-50. I included hope within a recent paper on recovery and the recovery model and Hodges' model: Jones P. (2014) Using a conceptual framework to explore the dimensions of recovery and their relationship to service user choice and self-determination. International Journal of Person Centered Medicine. Vol 3, No 4, (2013) pp.305-311. The model prompts consideration of a concept in four domains: INTRA-INTERPERSONAL |? SCIENCES ---------------------------------------------- SOCIOLOGICAL???????????? |? POLITICAL + SPIRITUAL - 5th domain Table 1 The Recovery STAR dimensions mapped to Hodges? model Identity and self-esteem Managing mental health????????????????????????????? Hope Self- care Living Addictive behavior Social networks Relationships????????????????????????????????? Trust Skills Work Responsibilities Where JingJing mentions cognitive considerations then a medicalized / therapeutic stance may take in cognitive behavioural therapy? Hope within the cognitive triad? Of possible historical interest: http://www.studentmentalhealth.org.uk/ Plus: http://mhhehub.ning.com/ ? All the best, Peter Jones Lancashire, UK Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD" http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/ Hodges Health Career - Care Domains - Model http://www.p-jones.demon.co.uk/ h2cm: help 2C more - help 2 listen - help 2 care http://twitter.com/h2cm ________________________________ From: Henry G. Shonerd III To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp Sent: Monday, 25 August 2014, 20:03 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: About ?hope ??in socio-cultural research I am new to your dialog, and like very much that I am entering when hope is the focus. My take: Hope confronts despair, and despair is depression's ground. Teaching is hope, so teaching confronts despair both individually and culturally. Bloch, as I read him, contrasts hope and fantasy. All of this hits me personally and professionally. xmca rocks! Henry Shonerd On Aug 25, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Lois Holzman wrote: > For more on-the-grouod explicit? "hope-oriented" programs, see the work of Akom and D'Andrade at http://iseed.org from California, > and, in particular, Duncan-Andrade, J. M. (2009). Note to educators: Hope required when growing roses in concrete. Harvard Educational Review, 79(2), 181-194. PDF > Lois > > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:57 AM, ? ?? wrote: > >> Dear XMAL community: >> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program? in department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some help. >> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous research? are more like viewing? hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. >> I am still looking for? more information about hope research, so any published work about hope or any relational research will be very helpful for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give me? suggestion about my project. >> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. >> sincerelyJingJing >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> JingJing Chen >> >> Doctoral Program in Psychology, >> >> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human >> Sciences, >> >> University of Tsukuba >> >> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp >> >> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? > From blantonwe@gmail.com Tue Aug 26 00:13:41 2014 From: blantonwe@gmail.com (William Blanton) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:13:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A request for assistance In-Reply-To: References: <34208479-EC5A-4CC4-B2FE-FB8CC3E05679@csun.edu> <53F32CB4.304@uth.gr> Message-ID: Ageliki I intended to send the attached material earlier. Unfortunately I have moved and all the my hard drives are in a hard drive pile. I did find the material I thought might help you in your task. I have saved this bit created by Peg Griffin and Katherine Kind for a long time. I was hoping to use it in one of our 5D sites. We will soon I hope. Take a look at it. It is solid and applicable to your problem. Bill Blanton On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:34 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Someone was kind enough to point out that among the (doubless legion) > errors in my posts on this topic was a rather infelicitous phrase > which seemed to imply that only middle class parents were caring. The > point I was trying to make was that working class parents work--and > this eventually means less time for care-taking (not "caring"). This > is as much a fact of preschool life as the fact that larger classes > mean less individual time with the teacher during school life. > > And--like most facts of working class life in the last few > decades--it's getting worse, thanks to software which allows employers > to treat their minimum wage staff the way that hospitals treat > doctors--without the benefits. Take a look at this: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/starbucks-workers-scheduling-hours.html?_r=0 > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 19 August 2014 19:53, chronaki wrote: > > Dear Aggeliki > > > > I get into this line of discussion, hoping that I have something to > offer, > > as it is very close to my heart, my experiences and my current work. I > work > > in an early childhood department of education and I teach mathematics > > pedagogy and learning courses to our undergraduates -who mostly ome from > a > > working class background. I try to organize my courses around > > interdisciplinary work using digital media and expressive arts so that to > > prepare them for becoming designers of playful and art-based activity for > > the young children -so that to experience mathematical learning not as > > direct teaching but as connected and related. I realize that very often > my > > students have a very limited 'taste' of what might be aesthetically > > appropriate for the early ages, what is play, how play could be possibly > > linked to joy, how work can be joyful or even how play can require > > discipline, logic and intuition. Of course, this 'limited taste' > reflects to > > some extent a matter of working/middle class diversity (although such > > distinctions are not exactly relevant today ). Some of my students > haven't > > visited a museum in their life and know merely commercial play as it is > > advertised in shops and TV. > > > > The discussion over playful learning and how this relates to social class > > (especially in the early ages) is quite important and, perhaps, much more > > relevant today than it was a few decades ago. The topic is not new -but > > seems to come up again and again, although through different theorizing, > > empirical evidence and priorities in educational politics but also > > educational commerce (e.g.- see what is being bought today at such an > ease > > by anxious parents and educators?!!...). > > > > I can think over two publications in the field of mathematics education > that > > may be of some use here. > > One is a book by Cooper, Barry and Dunne, Mairead [see exact reference > > ....(2000) /Assessing Children's Mathematical Knowledge: social class sex > > and problem solving./ Open University > Press > > Buckingham, 215 pp. ISBN 0335-20316-7] that discusses a sociological > > analysis (based mainly on Bernstein) on how explicit/implicit ways of > > educating influence children's success and how this relates to social > class > > and gender. > > > > Another one is Valerie Walkerdine's well known book entitled 'Counting > > Girls' Out: Girls and Mathematics' published in the 80s. Although the > title > > does not disclose its relevance to social class, this book is also > closely > > related to the discussion of playful or 'progressive' education and its > > appropriation by working and middle class families (note: perhaps one > needs > > to attend to the 'new middle classes' phenomenon due to the upgrading or > > even downgrading in social classes. In the 80s, much more than it is > now, > > the family was for many households the 'mother' and the family was > extended > > into the preschool years to the teacher -who was supposed to be the > 'mother > > figure'. I have found very useful the discussion carried through the book > > over how 'playful' activity (and progressive pedagogy) influences > > differently social and working class 'mothers' and how related discourses > > tend to inscribe their interactions, behavior, pleasures, tacit > assessments > > and evaluative comments. How, then, the child can resist or appropriate > such > > discursive machinery? ?ow much play requires the 'meeting' of diverse > > discourses that, mainly relate to social class, ethnic, gendered > > diversities. Walkerdine provides some explanations throughout the book > based > > on Foucault and feminist theory. I have enjoyed this book and although > the > > book is not new it deserves an extra reading. I was recently responsible > for > > editing its translation into Greek. Perhaps you might want to have a > look in > > a lecture videotaped by Bodosakis foundation as an introduction to these > > very complex issues [ > > http://www.blod.gr/lectures/Pages/viewlecture.aspx?LectureID=786]. I > guess > > you speak Greek. If not, ignore the video... > > > > with best wishes > > anna chronaki > > > > > > > > On 19-Aug-14 8:00 AM, Tonyan, Holli A wrote: > >> > >> Hi Ageliki, > >> > >> I can think of two resources for your topic. > >> > >> Lisa Delpit's book Other People's Children directly addresses this. She > >> argues (I haven't read it in a while so forgive the fuzzy description) > that > >> a "child centered" focus harms children who are from cultural > backgrounds > >> outside of white, middle class backgrounds because they need more > explicit > >> instruction in a cultural community that is not their own. > >> > >> Carollee Howes book Culture and Child Development in Early Childhood > >> Education is relevant, but less directly so. Howes includes a number of > >> programs that she originally saw as "skill and drill" programs and she > goes > >> to some length to articulate their beliefs and practices in the context > of > >> their community. She's not arguing for "skill and drill" per se, but > she is > >> situating those approaches in local meaning through interviews with > >> directors and teachers in programs that were identified by community > members > >> as excellent programs and which surprised her from her ECE background. > >> > >> Delpit's book, particularly the second edition, is the clearest > >> articulation of the argument you present in the third paragraph below: > >> However, > >> there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > >> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > >> children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't > work > >> for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > >> instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else > is, > >> at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > >> readiness. > >> > >> The preface to the second edition includes Delpit's description of the > >> reactions that her colleagues have had to her arguments including those > who > >> agree (often in private and not in public) as well as those who oppose > her. > >> > >> Hope this helps! > >> Holli Tonyan > >> > >> On Aug 16, 2014, at 7:11 AM, Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> > wrote: > >> > >> Dear XMCA community, > >> > >> I'm looking for a piece of information, and I wonder whether someone on > >> the > >> XMCA list has it at their fingertips. > >> > >> I'm writing something that deals with Vivian Paley's storytelling and > >> story-acting practice. Among other things, that activity is an example > of > >> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist approaches to early child > >> education--the kinds of approaches that have been getting squeezed out > by > >> preschool practices that exclusively emphasize teacher-centered, > didactic > >> transmission of specific academic skills by direct instruction. > >> > >> A lot of people think that pushing down didacted/academic teaching > >> practices into preschool education is a good thing in general. However, > >> there are some people who might be willing to concede that more > >> child-centered, play-based, and constructivist might be OK for young > >> children from educated middle class families ... but that they won't > work > >> for poor and otherwise disadvantaged children. THOSE kids need direct > >> instruction to transmit "basic skills", and giving them anything else > is, > >> at best, a distraction from giving them what they need for school > >> readiness. > >> > >> My problem is this. As we all know, a lot of people think that, and > they > >> say it in conversation, and they make written arguments that rest > >> implicitly on that premise. In fact, this outlook is very widespread and > >> influential. But I've found that very few of them seem to be willing to > >> actually SAY it explicitly in their published work. I'm talking about > >> academics and policymakers. There are pro-direct-instruction websites > that > >> say it pretty straightforwardly. But journals want academic citations in > >> articles, so I'm trying to find one. > >> > >> *So does anyone out there know of any published work where someone > >> actually > >> SAYS that in writing? That is, that more child-oriented, play-based, > and > >> constructivist preschool practices (however they actually describe them) > >> might be OK for young children from educated middle-class homes, but are > >> useless or even harmful for poor and disadvantaged kids, who need more > >> teacher-centered, skill-based direct instruction?* > >> > >> I figured it couldn't hurt to ask. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> > >> ________________ > >> Ageliki Nicolopoulou > >> Professor of Psychology & Global Studies > >> Personal Webpage: > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=6a17755971ebaeca66e7a24d577fa559f5749d719fe3d9e43f0e55734c76a872 > >> Departmental Webpage: > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id%3D1430&k=eRI2VDBB0Ws5kaCopmd0GA%3D%3D%0A&r=qf%2BkY0WzGaFiU9hp3%2Bd0t5Pou2Gry2wwk%2B1QGKOKBwI%3D%0A&m=nmQJWXRp5Mwrx2ct1gjgnwNUV1KUlNHqKFvn0P33J90%3D%0A&s=83b487928946eb760073a00968fd37eb3a53224b009ff50818ea4793fe26367c > >> > >> Holli A. Tonyan, Ph.D. > >> ------------ > >> Associate Professor | Department of Psychology | California State > >> University, Northridge > >> Postal Address: 18111 Nordhoff Street | Northridge, CA 91330-8255 > >> > >> Tel: (818) 677-4970 | Fax: (818) 677-2829 > >> Office: ST322 > >> > >> http://www.csun.edu/~htonyan > >> http://csun.academia.edu/HolliTonyan > >> http://www.csun.edu/~ata20315/GE/general_experimental_psychology2.html > >> > >> **check out** > >> > >> Tonyan, H. A. (in press). Everyday routines: A window into the cultural > >> organization of family child care. Journal of Early Childhood Research. > >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1476718X14523748 > >> > >> Tonyan, H. A., Nuttall, J. (2014). Connecting cultural models of > >> home-based care and childminders? career paths: An Eco-cultural > analysis. > >> International Journal of Early Years Education, 22, 117-138, > >> http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/09669760.2013.809654 > >> > >> Tonyan, H. A., Mamikonian, A., & Chien, D. (2013). Do they practice > what > >> they preach? An Ecocultural, multidimensional, group-based examination > of > >> the relationship between beliefs and behaviours among child care > providers. > >> Early Child Development and Care, 183:12, 1853-1877. > >> http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03004430.2012.759949 > >> > >> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to > >> which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, > >> confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable federal or state > >> law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or the > >> employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended > >> recipient, please immediately notify the sender by telephone at > >> (818)677-4970, and destroy all copies of this e-mail and all > attachments. > >> > >> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can > >> change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. - Margaret > >> Mead US > anthropologist > >> & popularizer of anthropology (1901 - 1978) > >> > >> > >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: griffin_king.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 531931 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140826/db54e3aa/attachment-0001.pdf From eg100@hermes.cam.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 09:38:38 2014 From: eg100@hermes.cam.ac.uk (Esther Goody) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:38:38 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-2022-jp?b?QWJvdXQgGyRCIVYbKEJob3BlIBskQiFXGyhCIGluIHNv?= =?iso-2022-jp?b?Y2lvLWN1bHR1cmFsIHJlc2VhcmNo?= In-Reply-To: References: <76B89140-20B6-4186-895A-717D53DA51E2@umich.edu> Message-ID: <6E2D1DFE6B8E47B4ADFDC40DE8CBEC6E@EstherTOSH> Dear Mike, Can you send me your ordinary email address? Also for Sarah. I tried to do the 'Linkline' system, but for some reason it doesn't work with my system. Thanks, Esther -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 25 August 2014 16:30 To: Jan Aukes Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:About ?hope ? in socio-cultural research Thanks -- confusing generations of Blochs. The book remains highly recommended and my thanks for the correction. Mike On Monday, August 25, 2014, Jan Aukes wrote: > That should be Ernst Bloch, I suppose. > > > Op 25 aug. 2014 om 06:29 heeft mike cole > het volgende geschreven: > > > > To add to the suggestions-- I recommend that you find a copy of "The > > Principle of Hope" by Maurice Bloch. Parts of it are at marxists.org but > > a reading of the whole would be worth everyone's while. > > mike > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Zavala, Miguel < > > mizavala@exchange.fullerton.edu > wrote: > > > >> Jing Jing, > >> > >> I recommend looking at the work of Paulo Freire. There are > >> cultural-historical strands in his work, in particular the grounding in > >> Historical Materialism. > >> > >> You also might want to look at how hope is mediated and how it mediates > >> other processes. One thing I've been looking at is how hope is > generated > >> in and through the very experience of marginalization / oppression. The > >> experience of marginalization / oppression, when we 'take a distance' > from > >> it (I.e. Reflect critically) becomes a resource for transforming that > very > >> marginalization / oppression. > >> > >> I think hope is also found in the quiet corners of mediation, always > >> present, the distance between 'subject' and 'object' opening horizons of > >> possibility for learning and development. Without getting to obscure > >> here, hope is mediation. > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> > >>> On 8/24/14 2:55 PM, "Ed Wall" > wrote: > >>> > >>> JingJing > >>> > >>> Paul Ricoeur's work can be mined for a take on hope. His notion > >>> involves expectation and anticipation. For instance, "hope is the > >>> dynamism of desire projecting its own realization"; and "hope is a > >>> deep-seated human trait, constitutive of human nature itself." I (and I > >>> am sure he doesn't either) think of this as cognitive, but I don't > think > >>> he necessarily thinks of this as entirely socio-cultural either. > Anyway, > >>> Huskey has written a book pulling his thoughts on this topic together: > >>> 'Paul Riceour on Hope.' > >>> > >>> Ed Wall > >>> > >>>> On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>> > >>>> JingJing, > >>>> You should check out Lois Holzman's work (Vygotsky at Work and Play > >>>> would > >>>> be a very good place for you to start). She is working with a > >>>> population in > >>>> New York City that is roughly equivalent to the population that you > are > >>>> researching. > >>>> > >>>> I suspect that she might shy away from the word "hope" for fear that > >>>> hope > >>>> itself can be an empty thing (as in a palliative "false hope"). I > think > >>>> she > >>>> would probably prefer to speak of something like "possibilities of > >>>> becoming". But I'd rather hear from her on this matter since I'm just > >>>> making this up in the hope that she bring some of her wisdom to this > >>>> thread. > >>>> > >>>> -greg > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:57 AM, ? ?? > > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Dear XMAL community: > >>>>> My name is Jingjing Chen, a graduate student of doctoral program in > >>>>> department of Psychology.I am sending this email to search for some > >>>>> help. > >>>>> I am interested in the development of hope among high school students > >>>>> (especially whom is studying in a vocational high school , where most > >>>>> students are from poor disadvantaged family in Japan.)Previous > research > >>>>> are more like viewing hope as a cognitive and individual ingredient, > >>>>> while I am trying to describe it using socio-cultural approach. > >>>>> I am still looking for more information about hope research, so any > >>>>> published work about hope or any relational research will be very > >>>>> helpful > >>>>> for me.It will also be a great honor and pleasure if anyone can give > me > >>>>> suggestion about my project. > >>>>> Thank you for your attention.All the best wishes. > >>>>> sincerelyJingJing > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>> JingJing Chen > >>>>> > >>>>> Doctoral Program in Psychology, > >>>>> > >>>>> Graduate School of Comprehensive Human > >>>>> Sciences, > >>>>> > >>>>> University of Tsukuba > >>>>> > >>>>> E-mail:s1330355@u.tsukuba.ac.jp > >>>>> > >>>>> E-mail:chenjingjing007@hotmail.co.jp > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>> Brigham Young University > >>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >> > >> > >> > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4745 / Virus Database: 4007/8109 - Release Date: 08/27/14 From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Aug 27 16:04:48 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:04:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Job Announcement - University of Zurich In-Reply-To: <53FD7C81.2080709@psychologie.uzh.ch> References: <53FD7C81.2080709@psychologie.uzh.ch> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Moritz M. Daum* Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Job Announcement - University of Zurich To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org Dear colleagues The University of Zurich invites applications for three positions: Professorship of Economics in Child and Youth Development Professorship of Psychology in Child and Youth Development Professorship of Sociology in Child and Youth Development Applications are invited for positions as Full Professors (Chairs), starting, at the earliest, in August 2015. Further information on the profile of the open positions can be found at http://www.phil.uzh.ch/jobs.html and in the attached PDF-file. Best regards Moritz Daum, -- University of Zurich Prof. Dr. Moritz M. Daum Department of Psychology Developmental Psychology Binzmuehlestrasse 14, Box 21 CH-8050 Zuerich +41 44 635 74 86 Phone +41 44 635 74 79 Fax www.psychologie.uzh.ch daum@psychologie.uzh.ch -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UniZuerich-ProductiveYouthDevelopment.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 115219 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140827/e829bf77/attachment.pdf From jalevin@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 28 16:21:09 2014 From: jalevin@ucsd.edu (Jim Levin) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 16:21:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society Message-ID: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> Hi XMCA folks, Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. If you know of students who you think might be interested in this doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. Thanks! Jim Levin Professor Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Aug 28 18:54:54 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:54:54 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Hi Jim, Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is inspiring to me. Henry On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > Hi XMCA folks, > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. > > Thanks! > > Jim Levin > Professor > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego > From jalevin@ucsd.edu Thu Aug 28 19:10:48 2014 From: jalevin@ucsd.edu (Jim Levin) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:10:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Henry, Sorry about the disappearing attachment. I?ll append it below. Also the link is: http://eds.ucsd.edu/graduate/phd/index.html I?ve met Ron Langacker, but haven?t talked with him for a while. Jim On Aug 28, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > Hi Jim, > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is inspiring to me. > Henry > > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > >> Hi XMCA folks, >> >> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. >> >> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jim Levin >> Professor >> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >> > > From hshonerd@gmail.com Thu Aug 28 21:13:21 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 22:13:21 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <442602F7-45BA-40A7-89B0-80F98BDC0FAF@gmail.com> Thank you, Jim! On Aug 28, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > Hi Henry, > > Sorry about the disappearing attachment. I?ll append it below. Also the link is: > http://eds.ucsd.edu/graduate/phd/index.html > > I?ve met Ron Langacker, but haven?t talked with him for a while. > > Jim > > > > On Aug 28, 2014, at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > >> Hi Jim, >> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is inspiring to me. >> Henry >> >> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >> >>> Hi XMCA folks, >>> >>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. >>> >>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jim Levin >>> Professor >>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>> >> >> > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Fri Aug 29 06:43:17 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 09:43:17 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> Message-ID: ?Hi ? ?Andy, I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation of SNCC . She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times (both white and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the formation of the Freedom School Curriculum. I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography from her family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown *Ready from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly detailed with many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources from the University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be useful to you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html *Robert* ? On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, Robert. > I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called "Highlander. No > Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get > everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark was in > charge of the discussions with the students who later joined SNCC. So she > is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, > including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an autobiography she > wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Robert Lake wrote: > >> Hi Andy, >> Yes I do. Start with this . >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton >> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >> and the biography of Septima Clark. >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. >> >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles >> Horton and Paulo Freire >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >> >> More Later, >> Robert Lake >> >> >> I will send more this afternoon. >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >> >> Andy >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >> *Associate Professor >> Social Foundations of Education >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> Georgia Southern University >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> P. O. Box 8144 >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Aug 29 11:09:27 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 11:09:27 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> Message-ID: This entire line of discussion, including Highlander and Septima seems ripe for a kind of review essay for MCA. Might a couple of you involved in recuperating this important history consider creating a survey/ guide for the rest of us? Mike On Friday, August 29, 2014, Robert Lake wrote: > ?Hi ? > ?Andy, > I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation of SNCC . > She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times (both white > and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see > recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were > credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? > ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she > taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? > ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the formation of the > Freedom School Curriculum. > > I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography from her > family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown *Ready > from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon > Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly detailed with > many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources from the > University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. > > Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be useful to > you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. > > http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html > > *Robert* > > > ? > > On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" > > wrote: > > > So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, Robert. > > I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called "Highlander. No > > Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get > > everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark was in > > charge of the discussions with the students who later joined SNCC. So she > > is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, > > including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an autobiography she > > wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > Robert Lake wrote: > > > >> Hi Andy, > >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> > >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> > >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles > >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> > >> More Later, > >> Robert Lake > >> > >> > >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what > >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off > >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other > >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were > >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> > >> Andy > >> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> *Associate Professor > >> Social Foundations of Education > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> Georgia Southern University > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > >> > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Aug 29 16:15:06 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 16:15:06 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Faculty position in Developmental Psychology at University of California Merced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rose Scott Date: Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 1:36 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Faculty position in Developmental Psychology at University of California Merced To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org The University of California, Merced is seeking one new faculty member at the Assistant (tenure-track), Associate (tenured), or Full Professor (tenured) level in Developmental Psychology. This is a unique opportunity to join a growing faculty in psychology at a new University of California campus and to contribute to program building. Research focus is open, but should add to or complement areas of research of current developmental faculty, which include: cognitive, emotional, language and conversational development, cultural and interpersonal processes, and biological approaches to atypical development and learning. We are especially interested in a research focus related (directly or indirectly) to issues important to the San Joaquin Valley of California and its underserved, diverse populations. The successful candidate will have a doctorate in developmental psychology or a closely related field by the position start date; a strong record of publication; interests in program-building; and, a commitment to excellence in teaching. At the Associate/Full Professor levels, the successful candidate will have a strong record of leadership and evidence of an influential research program, and potential for grant funding or history thereof. Applications must be submitted online and must be received no later than October 17, 2014, in order to be considered. Interested applicants are required to submit 1) a cover letter; 2) curriculum vitae; 3) statement of research; 4) statement of teaching; 5) up to five reprints of publications; and, 6) a list of references with contact information including mailing address, phone number and e-mail address. Applicants for the *Assistant Professor* level should arrange to have four letters of reference submitted online. Applicants for the* Associate/Full Professor* level should include a list of four references with their applications; letters of reference are not required at this time. For additional information, please visit https://aprecruit.ucmerced.edu/apply/JPF00135. _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Aug 29 17:58:58 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 17:58:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from different national traditions. Nice idea for a review article in MCA. But more proximaly, what should we be reading? mike On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > Hi Jim, > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is > inspiring to me. > Henry > > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > > > Hi XMCA folks, > > > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. > > > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim Levin > > Professor > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Aug 29 18:10:44 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 11:10:44 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> Message-ID: <54012494.3010902@mira.net> Well, there certainly is a lot to be said about Highlander! I would be very willing to participate in a collaborative effort to recall this amazing institution to MCA readers. As it happens, its current incarnation, the Highlander Research and Education Center, is celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Summer next month, but one of the astounding features of this place is that it has survived alive through 82 years in the heart of Dixie teaching radical democracy to integrated classes and taking its students out on to picket lines and voter registration drives as part of their "course work". Absolutely astounding. It is also a "design experiment" inasmuch as Myles Horton used it to "experiment" to develop his methods of social change. And a rare case in which a school has literally changed history, and consciously so. But the fact is that I am a foreigner who only learnt that this place existed a couple of weeks ago. Robert Lake on the other hand does know a lot about it, and maybe Helena Worthen would like to contribute. The larger context in which it has arisen in my research may just be too large to introduce into a review article which does Highlander justice, but I could add a line or too on that if Robert could write the bulk of it. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > This entire line of discussion, including Highlander and Septima seems > ripe for a kind of review essay for MCA. Might a couple of you > involved in recuperating this important history consider creating a > survey/ guide for the rest of us? > Mike > > On Friday, August 29, 2014, Robert Lake > wrote: > > ?Hi ? > ?Andy, > I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation > of SNCC . > She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times > (both white > and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see > recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were > credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? > ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she > taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? > ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the > formation of the > Freedom School Curriculum. > > I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography > from her > family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown > *Ready > from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon > Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly > detailed with > many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources > from the > University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. > > Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be > useful to > you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. > > http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html > > *Robert* > > > ? > > On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" > wrote: > > > So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, > Robert. > > I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called > "Highlander. No > > Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get > > everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark > was in > > charge of the discussions with the students who later joined > SNCC. So she > > is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, > > including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an > autobiography she > > wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. > > > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > > Robert Lake wrote: > > > >> Hi Andy, > >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> > >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> > >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this > afternoon. > >> > >> > >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue > between Myles > >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> > >> More Later, > >> Robert Lake > >> > >> > >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what > >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off > >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other > >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what > they were > >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> > >> Andy > >> -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> *Associate Professor > >> Social Foundations of Education > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> Georgia Southern University > >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> > >> > >> > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 07:31:49 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 07:31:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <54012494.3010902@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> <54012494.3010902@mira.net> Message-ID: Your idea sounds like a real good idea to me, Andy- I am pretty sure there are others around XMCA with interesting connections to Highlander. The topic is certainly relevant to discussions of poverty and education, and a lot more of interest to this list. mike On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Well, there certainly is a lot to be said about Highlander! > I would be very willing to participate in a collaborative effort to recall > this amazing institution to MCA readers. As it happens, its current > incarnation, the Highlander Research and Education Center, is celebrating > the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Summer next month, but one of the > astounding features of this place is that it has survived alive through 82 > years in the heart of Dixie teaching radical democracy to integrated > classes and taking its students out on to picket lines and voter > registration drives as part of their "course work". Absolutely astounding. > It is also a "design experiment" inasmuch as Myles Horton used it to > "experiment" to develop his methods of social change. And a rare case in > which a school has literally changed history, and consciously so. > But the fact is that I am a foreigner who only learnt that this place > existed a couple of weeks ago. Robert Lake on the other hand does know a > lot about it, and maybe Helena Worthen would like to contribute. The larger > context in which it has arisen in my research may just be too large to > introduce into a review article which does Highlander justice, but I could > add a line or too on that if Robert could write the bulk of it. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> This entire line of discussion, including Highlander and Septima seems >> ripe for a kind of review essay for MCA. Might a couple of you involved in >> recuperating this important history consider creating a survey/ guide for >> the rest of us? >> Mike >> >> On Friday, August 29, 2014, Robert Lake > > wrote: >> >> ?Hi ? >> ?Andy, >> I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation >> of SNCC . >> She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times >> (both white >> and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see >> recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were >> credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? >> ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she >> taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? >> ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the >> formation of the >> Freedom School Curriculum. >> >> I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography >> from her >> family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown >> *Ready >> from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon >> Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly >> detailed with >> many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources >> from the >> University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. >> >> Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be >> useful to >> you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. >> >> http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html >> >> *Robert* >> >> >> ? >> >> On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" > > wrote: >> >> > So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, >> Robert. >> > I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called >> "Highlander. No >> > Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get >> > everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark >> was in >> > charge of the discussions with the students who later joined >> SNCC. So she >> > is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, >> > including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an >> autobiography she >> > wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. >> > >> > Andy >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> > >> > >> > Robert Lake wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Andy, >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >> >> >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/ >> 0807737003 >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark > >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >> >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >> >> >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this >> afternoon. >> >> >> >> >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue >> between Myles >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >> >> >> >> More Later, >> >> Robert Lake >> >> >> >> >> >> I will send more this afternoon. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >> > >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other >> >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what >> they were >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> -- ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> >> ------------ >> >> *Andy Blunden* >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >> >> *Associate Professor >> >> Social Foundations of Education >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >> >> Georgia Southern University >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >> >> P. O. Box 8144 >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > From rohini.ng@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 08:30:35 2014 From: rohini.ng@gmail.com (Rohini Nag) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 21:00:35 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Professors, I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. Are international students eligible to apply too? I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could at least apply? Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this can at all be pursued? I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that have been insightful. Warmly, Rohini Nag MPhil-II Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi-110067 India On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: > Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that > the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and > should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. > > On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the > articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles > Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's > ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from > different national traditions. > > Nice idea for a review article in MCA. > But more proximaly, what should we be reading? > mike > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III > wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like > > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald > > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is > > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he > > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems > > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical > > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I > > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been > > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. > > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is > > inspiring to me. > > Henry > > > > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > > > > > Hi XMCA folks, > > > > > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with > a > > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is > attached. > > > > > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this > > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall > for > > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is > > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Jim Levin > > > Professor > > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego > > > > > > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 08:56:14 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:56:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Rohini-- Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, higher education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with a louder voice than talent in many cases. Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it around to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the list? mike On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > Dear Professors, > > I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the > conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin > about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. > Are international students eligible to apply too? > I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India and > happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of > cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could > at least apply? > > Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a > discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on > Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be > developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if > such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse > analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this > can at all be pursued? > I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of your > comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that have > been insightful. > > Warmly, > Rohini Nag > MPhil-II > Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies > Jawaharlal Nehru University > New Delhi-110067 > India > On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: > >> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that >> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and >> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >> >> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's >> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >> different national traditions. >> >> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III > > >> wrote: >> >> > Hi Jim, >> > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like >> > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald >> > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with >> is >> > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >> > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >> seems >> > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >> > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >> > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >> > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >> beginning. >> > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >> > inspiring to me. >> > Henry >> > >> > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >> > >> > > Hi XMCA folks, >> > > >> > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >> with a >> > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >> attached. >> > > >> > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >> > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall >> for >> > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is >> > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >> > > >> > > Thanks! >> > > >> > > Jim Levin >> > > Professor >> > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > From rohini.ng@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 09:16:19 2014 From: rohini.ng@gmail.com (Rohini Nag) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 21:46:19 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello professor, Thank you for replying. Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the attainment of which shall be highly competitive. Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? Rohini On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > Hello Rohini-- > > Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In > general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee > structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, higher > education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then > non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with a > louder voice than talent in many cases. > > Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what > precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it around > to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the list? > mike > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > >> Dear Professors, >> >> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin >> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. >> Are international students eligible to apply too? >> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of >> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could >> at least apply? >> >> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a >> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be >> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if >> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this >> can at all be pursued? >> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that >> have been insightful. >> >> Warmly, >> Rohini Nag >> MPhil-II >> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >> Jawaharlal Nehru University >> New Delhi-110067 >> India >> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >> >>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that >>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting >>> and >>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>> >>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>> Vygotsky's >>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>> different national traditions. >>> >>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi Jim, >>> > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>> like >>> > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>> Ronald >>> > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with >>> is >>> > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >>> > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>> seems >>> > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>> > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >>> > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>> > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>> beginning. >>> > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >>> > inspiring to me. >>> > Henry >>> > >>> > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>> > >>> > > Hi XMCA folks, >>> > > >>> > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>> with a >>> > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>> attached. >>> > > >>> > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>> > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall >>> for >>> > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline >>> is >>> > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks! >>> > > >>> > > Jim Levin >>> > > Professor >>> > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 09:37:48 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:37:48 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to obtain, but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not guaranteed but frequently obtained. :-) mike On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > Hello professor, > > Thank you for replying. > Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for > international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the attainment > of which shall be highly competitive. > > Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on > Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? > Rohini > On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > >> Hello Rohini-- >> >> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In >> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee >> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, higher >> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then >> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with a >> louder voice than talent in many cases. >> >> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what >> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it around >> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the list? >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: >> >>> Dear Professors, >>> >>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin >>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. >>> Are international students eligible to apply too? >>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of >>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could >>> at least apply? >>> >>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a >>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be >>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if >>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this >>> can at all be pursued? >>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that >>> have been insightful. >>> >>> Warmly, >>> Rohini Nag >>> MPhil-II >>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >>> Jawaharlal Nehru University >>> New Delhi-110067 >>> India >>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around >>>> that >>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting >>>> and >>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>> >>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>>> Vygotsky's >>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>> different national traditions. >>>> >>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi Jim, >>>> > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>>> like >>>> > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>>> Ronald >>>> > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar >>>> with is >>>> > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >>>> > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>>> seems >>>> > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>> > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. >>>> I >>>> > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>>> > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>>> beginning. >>>> > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >>>> > inspiring to me. >>>> > Henry >>>> > >>>> > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Hi XMCA folks, >>>> > > >>>> > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>>> with a >>>> > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>>> attached. >>>> > > >>>> > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>> > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this >>>> fall for >>>> > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline >>>> is >>>> > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks! >>>> > > >>>> > > Jim Levin >>>> > > Professor >>>> > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>> >> From rohini.ng@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 09:44:15 2014 From: rohini.ng@gmail.com (Rohini Nag) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 22:14:15 +0530 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm sure I'll make the most of it. :-) On Aug 30, 2014 10:08 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to > obtain, but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not > guaranteed but frequently obtained. :-) > mike > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > >> Hello professor, >> >> Thank you for replying. >> Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for >> international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the attainment >> of which shall be highly competitive. >> >> Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on >> Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? >> Rohini >> On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: >> >>> Hello Rohini-- >>> >>> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In >>> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee >>> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, higher >>> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then >>> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with a >>> louder voice than talent in many cases. >>> >>> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what >>> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it around >>> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the list? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Professors, >>>> >>>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >>>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin >>>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. >>>> Are international students eligible to apply too? >>>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >>>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of >>>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could >>>> at least apply? >>>> >>>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a >>>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >>>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be >>>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if >>>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >>>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this >>>> can at all be pursued? >>>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >>>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that >>>> have been insightful. >>>> >>>> Warmly, >>>> Rohini Nag >>>> MPhil-II >>>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >>>> Jawaharlal Nehru University >>>> New Delhi-110067 >>>> India >>>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around >>>>> that >>>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting >>>>> and >>>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>>> >>>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of >>>>> Giles >>>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>>> different national traditions. >>>>> >>>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi Jim, >>>>> > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>>>> like >>>>> > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>>>> Ronald >>>>> > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar >>>>> with is >>>>> > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, >>>>> he >>>>> > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>>>> seems >>>>> > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>>> > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are >>>>> developing. I >>>>> > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>>>> > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>>>> beginning. >>>>> > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program >>>>> is >>>>> > inspiring to me. >>>>> > Henry >>>>> > >>>>> > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Hi XMCA folks, >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>>>> with a >>>>> > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>>>> attached. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>>> > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this >>>>> fall for >>>>> > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application >>>>> deadline is >>>>> > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Thanks! >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Jim Levin >>>>> > > Professor >>>>> > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>> > From merja.helle@aalto.fi Sat Aug 30 09:53:04 2014 From: merja.helle@aalto.fi (Helle Merja) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 16:53:04 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: cognitive linguistics and Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: <13851_1409416764_5401FE3C_13851_1069_1_CAHCnM0CSoe4HeGfALDLjLob0L+7_yWua3ZCiFC5VpiM8tE3-nQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A new article written with my colleagues combining activity theory (change laboratory) and cognitive linguistics will be published in the September issue of Discourse & Society Minna Jaakola, Maija T?yry, Merja Helle, Tiina Onikki-Rantaj??sk? Construing the reader: A multidisciplinary approach to journalistic texts Abstract In order to compare the relationship between the intended aims of journalists and the journalistic texts produced, this article develops further the notion of the reader in two directions: first, as an intended ?model reader? of a media concept that is collectively construed in the editorial process and, second, as a ?construed reader? that is analyzed from the texts. Media concept and model reader are concepts and tools for making visible and analyzing the goals, values, content and organization of work in media organizations, whereas with the concept of a construed reader it is possible to assess the texts as outcomes of the editorial process and in this way compare them with the intentions. The construed reader in the text is analyzed from the viewpoint of cognitive grammar theory and its ?dimensions of construal? in which ?specificity?, ?focusing? and ?perspective? are used as linguistic tools for analysis. The case study data come from a Finnish third-sector magazine. Keywords cognitive grammar, construed reader, dimensions of construal, discourse analysis, Finnish, focusing, implied reader, intentions, magazine texts, media concept, media studies, model reader, perspective, specificity E-mail me if you want a copy of the article Br merja Dr. Merja Helle Head of Research, Media Concepts Research Group, Aalto School of Arts, Design and Architecture H?meentie 135 C, 00560 Helsinkimerja.helle@aalto.fi tel. +358 50 4485 111 http://www.mediaconceptsrg.net/ http://mediaconceptsrg.blogspot.com/ http://taik.academia.edu/MerjaHelle On 30.8.2014 19.37, "mike cole" wrote: >The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to >obtain, >but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not guaranteed >but frequently obtained. :-) >mike > > >On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > >> Hello professor, >> >> Thank you for replying. >> Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for >> international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the >>attainment >> of which shall be highly competitive. >> >> Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on >> Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? >> Rohini >> On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: >> >>> Hello Rohini-- >>> >>> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In >>> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee >>> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, >>>higher >>> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then >>> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with >>>a >>> louder voice than talent in many cases. >>> >>> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what >>> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it >>>around >>> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the >>>list? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag >>>wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Professors, >>>> >>>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >>>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. >>>>Levin >>>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational >>>>studies. >>>> Are international students eligible to apply too? >>>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >>>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the >>>>area of >>>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I >>>>could >>>> at least apply? >>>> >>>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do >>>>a >>>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >>>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation >>>>to be >>>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to >>>>know, if >>>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >>>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if >>>>this >>>> can at all be pursued? >>>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >>>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky >>>>that >>>> have been insightful. >>>> >>>> Warmly, >>>> Rohini Nag >>>> MPhil-II >>>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >>>> Jawaharlal Nehru University >>>> New Delhi-110067 >>>> India >>>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around >>>>> that >>>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really >>>>>interesting >>>>> and >>>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>>> >>>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of >>>>>Giles >>>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>>> different national traditions. >>>>> >>>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi Jim, >>>>> > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>>>> like >>>>> > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>>>> Ronald >>>>> > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar >>>>> with is >>>>> > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent >>>>>me, he >>>>> > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>>>> seems >>>>> > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>>> > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are >>>>>developing. >>>>> I >>>>> > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have >>>>>been >>>>> > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>>>> beginning. >>>>> > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new >>>>>program is >>>>> > inspiring to me. >>>>> > Henry >>>>> > >>>>> > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Hi XMCA folks, >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>>>> with a >>>>> > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>>>> attached. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>>> > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this >>>>> fall for >>>>> > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application >>>>>deadline >>>>> is >>>>> > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Thanks! >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Jim Levin >>>>> > > Professor >>>>> > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jaakola et al 2014 construing the reader.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 734708 bytes Desc: jaakola et al 2014 construing the reader.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140830/b3a26e51/attachment-0001.pdf From djwdoc@yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 13:20:35 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 13:20:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: cognitive linguistics and Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <13851_1409416764_5401FE3C_13851_1069_1_CAHCnM0CSoe4HeGfALDLjLob0L+7_yWua3ZCiFC5VpiM8tE3-nQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1409430035.2642.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- I would be interested--particularly if you are addressing blended spaces. Thanks, Doug Williams ________________________________ From: Helle Merja To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:53 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: cognitive linguistics and Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society A new article written with my colleagues combining activity theory (change laboratory) and cognitive linguistics will be published in the September issue of Discourse & Society Minna Jaakola, Maija T?yry, Merja Helle, Tiina Onikki-Rantaj??sk? Construing the reader: A multidisciplinary approach to journalistic texts Abstract In order to compare the relationship between the intended aims of journalists and the journalistic texts produced, this article develops further the notion of the reader in two directions: first, as an intended ?model reader? of a media concept that is collectively construed in the editorial process and, second, as a ?construed reader? that is analyzed from the texts. Media concept and model reader are concepts and tools for making visible and analyzing the goals, values, content and organization of work in media organizations, whereas with the concept of a construed reader it is possible to assess the texts as outcomes of the editorial process and in this way compare them with the intentions. The construed reader in the text is analyzed from the viewpoint of cognitive grammar theory and its ?dimensions of construal? in which ?specificity?, ?focusing? and ?perspective? are used as linguistic tools for analysis. The case study data come from a Finnish third-sector magazine. Keywords cognitive grammar, construed reader, dimensions of construal, discourse analysis, Finnish, focusing, implied reader, intentions, magazine texts, media concept, media studies, model reader, perspective, specificity E-mail me if you want a copy of the article Br merja Dr. Merja Helle Head of Research, Media Concepts Research Group, Aalto School of Arts, Design and Architecture H?meentie 135 C, 00560 Helsinkimerja.helle@aalto.fi tel. +358 50 4485 111 http://www.mediaconceptsrg.net/ http://mediaconceptsrg.blogspot.com/ http://taik.academia.edu/MerjaHelle On 30.8.2014 19.37, "mike cole" wrote: >The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to >obtain, >but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not guaranteed >but frequently obtained. :-) >mike > > >On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > >> Hello professor, >> >> Thank you for replying. >> Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for >> international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the >>attainment >> of which shall be highly competitive. >> >> Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on >> Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? >> Rohini >> On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: >> >>> Hello Rohini-- >>> >>> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In >>> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee >>> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, >>>higher >>> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then >>> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with >>>a >>> louder voice than talent in many cases. >>> >>> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what >>> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it >>>around >>> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the >>>list? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag >>>wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Professors, >>>> >>>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >>>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. >>>>Levin >>>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational >>>>studies. >>>> Are international students eligible to apply too? >>>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >>>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the >>>>area of >>>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I >>>>could >>>> at least apply? >>>> >>>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do >>>>a >>>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >>>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation >>>>to be >>>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to >>>>know, if >>>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >>>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if >>>>this >>>> can at all be pursued? >>>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >>>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky >>>>that >>>> have been insightful. >>>> >>>> Warmly, >>>> Rohini Nag >>>> MPhil-II >>>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >>>> Jawaharlal Nehru University >>>> New Delhi-110067 >>>> India >>>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around >>>>> that >>>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really >>>>>interesting >>>>> and >>>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>>> >>>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of >>>>>Giles >>>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>>> different national traditions. >>>>> >>>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Hi Jim, >>>>> > Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>>>> like >>>>> > to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>>>> Ronald >>>>> > Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar >>>>> with is >>>>> > work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent >>>>>me, he >>>>> > agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>>>> seems >>>>> > to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>>> > foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are >>>>>developing. >>>>> I >>>>> > have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have >>>>>been >>>>> > thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>>>> beginning. >>>>> > My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new >>>>>program is >>>>> > inspiring to me. >>>>> > Henry >>>>> > >>>>> > On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Hi XMCA folks, >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>>>> with a >>>>> > focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>>>> attached. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>>> > doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this >>>>> fall for >>>>> > our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application >>>>>deadline >>>>> is >>>>> > December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Thanks! >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Jim Levin >>>>> > > Professor >>>>> > > Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>> From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Sat Aug 30 14:03:12 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 17:03:12 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> <54012494.3010902@mira.net> Message-ID: Dear XCMA family. I will be honoured to write a review piece if the deadline is reasonable no one else has agreed to do it so far. Robert Lake Oitn Saturday, August 30, 2014, mike cole wrote: > Your idea sounds like a real good idea to me, Andy- I am pretty sure > there are others around XMCA with interesting connections to > Highlander. The topic is certainly relevant to discussions of > poverty and education, and a lot more of interest to this list. > mike > > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > > > Well, there certainly is a lot to be said about Highlander! > > I would be very willing to participate in a collaborative effort to > recall > > this amazing institution to MCA readers. As it happens, its current > > incarnation, the Highlander Research and Education Center, is celebrating > > the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Summer next month, but one of the > > astounding features of this place is that it has survived alive through > 82 > > years in the heart of Dixie teaching radical democracy to integrated > > classes and taking its students out on to picket lines and voter > > registration drives as part of their "course work". Absolutely > astounding. > > It is also a "design experiment" inasmuch as Myles Horton used it to > > "experiment" to develop his methods of social change. And a rare case in > > which a school has literally changed history, and consciously so. > > But the fact is that I am a foreigner who only learnt that this place > > existed a couple of weeks ago. Robert Lake on the other hand does know a > > lot about it, and maybe Helena Worthen would like to contribute. The > larger > > context in which it has arisen in my research may just be too large to > > introduce into a review article which does Highlander justice, but I > could > > add a line or too on that if Robert could write the bulk of it. > > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > >> This entire line of discussion, including Highlander and Septima seems > >> ripe for a kind of review essay for MCA. Might a couple of you involved > in > >> recuperating this important history consider creating a survey/ guide > for > >> the rest of us? > >> Mike > >> > >> On Friday, August 29, 2014, Robert Lake > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> ?Hi ? > >> ?Andy, > >> I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation > >> of SNCC . > >> She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times > >> (both white > >> and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people > see > >> recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were > >> credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? > >> ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what > she > >> taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? > >> ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the > >> formation of the > >> Freedom School Curriculum. > >> > >> I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography > >> from her > >> family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown > >> *Ready > >> from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine > Mellon > >> Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly > >> detailed with > >> many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources > >> from the > >> University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. > >> > >> Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be > >> useful to > >> you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. > >> > >> http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html > >> > >> *Robert* > >> > >> > >> ? > >> > >> On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, > >> Robert. > >> > I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called > >> "Highlander. No > >> > Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can > get > >> > everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark > >> was in > >> > charge of the discussions with the students who later joined > >> SNCC. So she > >> > is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, > >> > including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an > >> autobiography she > >> > wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable > now. > >> > > >> > Andy > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ------------ > >> > *Andy Blunden* > >> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Robert Lake wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Andy, > >> >> Yes I do. Start with this . > >> >> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >> >> > >> >> And this biography of Myles Horton > >> >> > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/ > >> 0807737003 > >> >> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >> >> > >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >> >> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >> >> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >> >> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >> >> > >> >> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this > >> afternoon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue > >> between Myles > >> >> Horton and Paulo Freire > >> >> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >> >> > >> >> More Later, > >> >> Robert Lake > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I will send more this afternoon. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden > >> >> >> ablunden@mira.net >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, > what > >> >> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >> >> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed > off > >> >> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any > other > >> >> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >> >> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what > >> they were > >> >> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >> >> > >> >> Andy > >> >> -- ------------------------------ > >> ------------------------------ > >> >> ------------ > >> >> *Andy Blunden* > >> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >> >> *Associate Professor > >> >> Social Foundations of Education > >> >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >> >> Georgia Southern University > >> >> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >> >> P. O. Box 8144 > >> >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >> >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >> >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D.*Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 14:27:57 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 15:27:57 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> Message-ID: <2A41C980-4AC3-4E4C-A9EB-452B0A35750F@gmail.com> Hi Robert and Andy, Taking a biographical perspective on a smaller scale, it's interesting that an Australian Vygotskian/Hegellian/dialectic scholar would find so interesting the civil rights work of a courageous Black woman, that a white professor who gets impetus for writing while in movement (as he explains in his letter to Vera) would have a thorough knowledge of her work, and that a Black scholar (Lisa Delpit), should be associated with the "dark side" in literacy for minorities. How pun-ishingly ironic, maybe at the heart of the dialectic? Does it make sense to see such "entanglements" as consonant with a fractal model of history and culture, fractal formations at any scale being "self similar" and complex. Surely dialect thinking and fractal thinking are blendable, just as science and art are blendable. I am thinking about Fauconnier and Turner (on blending), Cantor (on fractals) and articles by Andy on metaphor and narrative, romantic science and the interaction of conceptual and pre-conceptual thinking. One more personal anecdote ties in. Two weekends ago my wife and I had lunch with Vera and Ruben in Santa Fe. She talked about the creative "leap". In her 1985 Notebooks of the Mind, Vera talks about "the joining of rapid bursts of thought with a regime of disciplined work". And finally, Anna Stetsenko in the the letters to Vera (Constructing a Community of Thought), argues that "Creativity?is an ineluctable feature of all and every person in their even utmost mundane activities and pursuits of everyday life." Vera and Vygotsky bring us creativity at all scales. Typically, "going to scale" means growth. Cancer is a growth. Destructive. Creativity is generative, nurturing. In all of this I find hope, which was got me into the xmca dialog in the first place. Henry On Aug 29, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > ?Hi ? > ?Andy, > I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation of SNCC . > She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times (both white > and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see > recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were > credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? > ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she > taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? > ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the formation of the > Freedom School Curriculum. > > I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography from her > family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown *Ready > from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon > Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly detailed with > many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources from the > University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. > > Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be useful to > you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. > > http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html > > *Robert* > > > ? > > On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > >> So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, Robert. >> I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called "Highlander. No >> Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get >> everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark was in >> charge of the discussions with the students who later joined SNCC. So she >> is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, >> including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an autobiography she >> wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >> >> >> Robert Lake wrote: >> >>> Hi Andy, >>> Yes I do. Start with this . >>> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >>> >>> And this biography of Myles Horton >>> >>> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >>> and the biography of Septima Clark. >>> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >>> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >>> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >>> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >>> >>> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. >>> >>> >>> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles >>> Horton and Paulo Freire >>> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >>> >>> More Later, >>> Robert Lake >>> >>> >>> I will send more this afternoon. >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what >>> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >>> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off >>> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other >>> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >>> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were >>> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >>> >>> Andy >>> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> *Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>> Georgia Southern University >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>> P. O. Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> >>> >>> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 14:48:44 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 15:48:44 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, I am attaching the articles that Langacker just sent me. I have not been able to read them completely yet. But he assured me that Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar are compatible and sent me the articles to back that up. I can't promise a review article?yet. That would require i have total confidence in my understanding of the articles. When you read the abstracts you'll see my hesitation. Still, in the past, I got his thinking, just took time. In any case, I am glad to put these articles out to the XMA community, since I am convinced that smart people will see the connection between Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar, if they dig deep. There may be other linguists out there ready to take it on.I say to them, "Go for it!" Vygotsky deserves all the appropriate linguistic analysis he can get, don't you think? Chomsky, whom Langacker departs from in many important ways, does not, in my opinion, provide such an analysis. Fauconnier and Lakoff both are great on metaphor and blending. But I think the nitty gritty grammatical analysis, with nouns and verbs, and all that stuff, is needed. I will let Langacker know of your interest. Who knows, he may agree to review anything I write. We'll see. Henry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: elliptic coordination.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 6418515 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140830/7ec7c664/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: interactive cognition.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 316813 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140830/7ec7c664/attachment-0003.pdf -------------- next part -------------- On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that > the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and > should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. > > On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the > articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles > Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's > ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from > different national traditions. > > Nice idea for a review article in MCA. > But more proximaly, what should we be reading? > mike > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III > wrote: > >> Hi Jim, >> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like >> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald >> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is >> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems >> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. >> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >> inspiring to me. >> Henry >> >> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >> >>> Hi XMCA folks, >>> >>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a >> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. >>> >>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for >> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is >> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Jim Levin >>> Professor >>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>> >> >> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 14:57:54 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 15:57:54 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71CED554-C3E5-4036-9A28-9BD1EB554BFD@gmail.com> Hi Rohini, Have you seen my email to Professor Cole with two articles by Langacker attached. Are you familiar with his work in Cognitive Linguistics? Henry On Aug 30, 2014, at 9:30 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > Dear Professors, > > I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the > conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin > about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. > Are international students eligible to apply too? > I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India and > happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of > cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could > at least apply? > > Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a > discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on > Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be > developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if > such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse > analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this > can at all be pursued? > I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of your > comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that have > been insightful. > > Warmly, > Rohini Nag > MPhil-II > Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies > Jawaharlal Nehru University > New Delhi-110067 > India > On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: > >> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that >> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and >> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >> >> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's >> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >> different national traditions. >> >> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jim, >>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like >>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald >>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is >>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems >>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. >>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >>> inspiring to me. >>> Henry >>> >>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>> >>>> Hi XMCA folks, >>>> >>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with >> a >>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >> attached. >>>> >>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall >> for >>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is >>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jim Levin >>>> Professor >>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From hshonerd@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 15:01:28 2014 From: hshonerd@gmail.com (Henry G. Shonerd III) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 16:01:28 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: cognitive linguistics and Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4200F3AE-4469-485F-B47D-0A58A951E568@gmail.com> Hi Minna, Perhaps you have seen the articles by Langacker that I just sent out to the XMA community. I would certainly be interested in a copy of your article. Henry On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Helle Merja wrote: > > A new article written with my colleagues combining activity theory (change > laboratory) and cognitive linguistics > will be published in the September issue of Discourse & Society > > Minna Jaakola, Maija T?yry, Merja Helle, Tiina Onikki-Rantaj??sk? > > Construing the reader: > A multidisciplinary approach > to journalistic texts > > Abstract > In order to compare the relationship between the intended aims of > journalists and the journalistic > texts produced, this article develops further the notion of the reader in > two directions: first, > as an intended ?model reader? of a media concept that is collectively > construed in the editorial > process and, second, as a ?construed reader? that is analyzed from the > texts. Media concept and > model reader are concepts and tools for making visible and analyzing the > goals, values, content > and organization of work in media organizations, whereas with the concept > of a construed reader > it is possible to assess the texts as outcomes of the editorial process > and in this way compare > them with the intentions. The construed reader in the text is analyzed > from the viewpoint of > cognitive grammar theory and its ?dimensions of construal? in which > ?specificity?, ?focusing? and > ?perspective? are used as linguistic tools for analysis. The case study > data come from a Finnish > third-sector magazine. > Keywords > cognitive grammar, construed reader, dimensions of construal, discourse > analysis, Finnish, > focusing, implied reader, intentions, magazine texts, media concept, media > studies, model > reader, perspective, specificity > > E-mail me if you want a copy of the article > > Br > > merja > > > Dr. Merja Helle > > Head of Research, Media Concepts Research Group, Aalto School of Arts, > Design and Architecture > H?meentie 135 C, 00560 Helsinkimerja.helle@aalto.fi > tel. +358 50 4485 111 > http://www.mediaconceptsrg.net/ > http://mediaconceptsrg.blogspot.com/ > http://taik.academia.edu/MerjaHelle > > > On 30.8.2014 19.37, "mike cole" wrote: > >> The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to >> obtain, >> but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not guaranteed >> but frequently obtained. :-) >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: >> >>> Hello professor, >>> >>> Thank you for replying. >>> Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for >>> international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the >>> attainment >>> of which shall be highly competitive. >>> >>> Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on >>> Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? >>> Rohini >>> On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Rohini-- >>>> >>>> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In >>>> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee >>>> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, >>>> higher >>>> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then >>>> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with >>>> a >>>> louder voice than talent in many cases. >>>> >>>> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what >>>> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it >>>> around >>>> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the >>>> list? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Professors, >>>>> >>>>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >>>>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. >>>>> Levin >>>>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational >>>>> studies. >>>>> Are international students eligible to apply too? >>>>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >>>>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the >>>>> area of >>>>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I >>>>> could >>>>> at least apply? >>>>> >>>>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do >>>>> a >>>>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >>>>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation >>>>> to be >>>>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to >>>>> know, if >>>>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >>>>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if >>>>> this >>>>> can at all be pursued? >>>>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >>>>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky >>>>> that >>>>> have been insightful. >>>>> >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Rohini Nag >>>>> MPhil-II >>>>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >>>>> Jawaharlal Nehru University >>>>> New Delhi-110067 >>>>> India >>>>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around >>>>>> that >>>>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really >>>>>> interesting >>>>>> and >>>>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of >>>>>> Giles >>>>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>>>> different national traditions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>>>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>>>>> like >>>>>>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>>>>> Ronald >>>>>>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar >>>>>> with is >>>>>>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent >>>>>> me, he >>>>>>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>>>>> seems >>>>>>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>>>>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are >>>>>> developing. >>>>>> I >>>>>>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have >>>>>> been >>>>>>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>>>>> beginning. >>>>>>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new >>>>>> program is >>>>>>> inspiring to me. >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi XMCA folks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>>>>> with a >>>>>>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>>>>> attached. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>>>>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this >>>>>> fall for >>>>>>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application >>>>>> deadline >>>>>> is >>>>>>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jim Levin >>>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 17:19:22 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 17:19:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <2A41C980-4AC3-4E4C-A9EB-452B0A35750F@gmail.com> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> <2A41C980-4AC3-4E4C-A9EB-452B0A35750F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have heard no news of deadlines about an article of the sort I thought Andy was suggesting. And it appears that at least Andy and Robert are interested, and perhaps Henry? And? No centralized organization seems appropriate here. Those interested can recognize themselves from the discussion and let the editors what emerges. The theme(s) is/are clearly generative of interest. mike On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > Hi Robert and Andy, > Taking a biographical perspective on a smaller scale, it's interesting > that an Australian Vygotskian/Hegellian/dialectic scholar would find so > interesting the civil rights work of a courageous Black woman, that a white > professor who gets impetus for writing while in movement (as he explains in > his letter to Vera) would have a thorough knowledge of her work, and that a > Black scholar (Lisa Delpit), should be associated with the "dark side" in > literacy for minorities. How pun-ishingly ironic, maybe at the heart of the > dialectic? Does it make sense to see such "entanglements" as consonant with > a fractal model of history and culture, fractal formations at any scale > being "self similar" and complex. Surely dialect thinking and fractal > thinking are blendable, just as science and art are blendable. I am > thinking about Fauconnier and Turner (on blending), Cantor (on fractals) > and articles by Andy on metaphor and narrative, romantic science and the > interaction of conceptual and pre-conceptual thinking. One more personal > anecdote ties in. Two weekends ago my wife and I had lunch with Vera and > Ruben in Santa Fe. She talked about the creative "leap". In her 1985 > Notebooks of the Mind, Vera talks about "the joining of rapid bursts of > thought with a regime of disciplined work". And finally, Anna Stetsenko in > the the letters to Vera (Constructing a Community of Thought), argues that > "Creativity?is an ineluctable feature of all and every person in their even > utmost mundane activities and pursuits of everyday life." Vera and Vygotsky > bring us creativity at all scales. Typically, "going to scale" means > growth. Cancer is a growth. Destructive. Creativity is generative, > nurturing. In all of this I find hope, which was got me into the xmca > dialog in the first place. > Henry > > > > On Aug 29, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > ?Hi ? > > ?Andy, > > I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation of > SNCC . > > She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times (both > white > > and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see > > recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were > > credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? > > ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she > > taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? > > ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the formation of > the > > Freedom School Curriculum. > > > > I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography from > her > > family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown *Ready > > from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon > > Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly detailed > with > > many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources from > the > > University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. > > > > Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be useful to > > you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. > > > > http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html > > > > *Robert* > > > > > > ? > > > > On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: > > > >> So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, Robert. > >> I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called "Highlander. > No > >> Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get > >> everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark was in > >> charge of the discussions with the students who later joined SNCC. So > she > >> is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, > >> including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an autobiography she > >> wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Robert Lake wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andy, > >>> Yes I do. Start with this . > >>> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ > >>> > >>> And this biography of Myles Horton > >>> > >>> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 > >>> and the biography of Septima Clark. > >>> > >>> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- > >>> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= > >>> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >>> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ > >>> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> > >>> > >>> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. > >>> > >>> > >>> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles > >>> Horton and Paulo Freire > >>> is one of the best books on both these leaders. > >>> > >>> More Later, > >>> Robert Lake > >>> > >>> > >>> I will send more this afternoon. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what > >>> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? > >>> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off > >>> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other > >>> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm > >>> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were > >>> doing in the 1950s and 60s. > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> ------------ > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >>> *Associate Professor > >>> Social Foundations of Education > >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >>> Georgia Southern University > >>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group > >>> P. O. Box 8144 > >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 17:21:13 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 17:21:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Henry. A lot of potential cross polinization going on. Fall pollen season for ideas. mike On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > Hi Mike, > I am attaching the articles that Langacker just sent me. I have not been > able to read them completely yet. But he assured me that Vygotsky and > Cognitive Grammar are compatible and sent me the articles to back that up. > I can't promise a review article?yet. That would require i have total > confidence in my understanding of the articles. When you read the abstracts > you'll see my hesitation. Still, in the past, I got his thinking, just took > time. In any case, I am glad to put these articles out to the XMA > community, since I am convinced that smart people will see the connection > between Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar, if they dig deep. There may be > other linguists out there ready to take it on.I say to them, "Go for it!" > Vygotsky deserves all the appropriate linguistic analysis he can get, don't > you think? Chomsky, whom Langacker departs from in many important ways, > does not, in my opinion, provide such an analysis. Fauconnier and Lakoff > both are great on metaphor and blending. But I think the nitty gritty > grammatical analysis, with nouns and verbs, and all that stuff, is needed. > I will let Langacker know of your interest. Who knows, he may agree to > review anything I write. We'll see. > Henry > > > > > On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that > > the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting > and > > should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. > > > > On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the > > articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles > > Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in > Vygotsky's > > ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from > > different national traditions. > > > > Nice idea for a review article in MCA. > > But more proximaly, what should we be reading? > > mike > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < > hshonerd@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Jim, > >> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like > >> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald > >> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with > is > >> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he > >> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It > seems > >> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical > >> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I > >> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been > >> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the > beginning. > >> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is > >> inspiring to me. > >> Henry > >> > >> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > >> > >>> Hi XMCA folks, > >>> > >>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with > a > >> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is > attached. > >>> > >>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this > >> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall > for > >> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is > >> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> Jim Levin > >>> Professor > >>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From jalevin@ucsd.edu Sat Aug 30 17:24:21 2014 From: jalevin@ucsd.edu (Jim Levin) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 17:24:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rohini, As Mike already explained, international students are welcomed to graduate programs at UCSD, including our Transforming Education in a Diverse Society Ph.D. program. Non-resident tuition is high - we will have fellowships and other graduate student support but they will be competitive. Jim Levin On Aug 30, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: > I'm sure I'll make the most of it. :-) > On Aug 30, 2014 10:08 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > >> The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to >> obtain, but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not >> guaranteed but frequently obtained. :-) >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: >> >>> Hello professor, >>> >>> Thank you for replying. >>> Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs for >>> international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the attainment >>> of which shall be highly competitive. >>> >>> Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address on >>> Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? >>> Rohini >>> On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Rohini-- >>>> >>>> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In >>>> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee >>>> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, higher >>>> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then >>>> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with a >>>> louder voice than talent in many cases. >>>> >>>> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what >>>> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it around >>>> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the list? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Professors, >>>>> >>>>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the >>>>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. Levin >>>>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational studies. >>>>> Are international students eligible to apply too? >>>>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, India >>>>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the area of >>>>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I could >>>>> at least apply? >>>>> >>>>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do a >>>>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on >>>>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation to be >>>>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to know, if >>>>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse >>>>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if this >>>>> can at all be pursued? >>>>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of >>>>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky that >>>>> have been insightful. >>>>> >>>>> Warmly, >>>>> Rohini Nag >>>>> MPhil-II >>>>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies >>>>> Jawaharlal Nehru University >>>>> New Delhi-110067 >>>>> India >>>>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around >>>>>> that >>>>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting >>>>>> and >>>>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of >>>>>> Giles >>>>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in >>>>>> Vygotsky's >>>>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>>>> different national traditions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < >>>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>>>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would >>>>>> like >>>>>>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with >>>>>> Ronald >>>>>>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar >>>>>> with is >>>>>>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, >>>>>> he >>>>>>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It >>>>>> seems >>>>>>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>>>>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are >>>>>> developing. I >>>>>>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>>>>>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the >>>>>> beginning. >>>>>>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program >>>>>> is >>>>>>> inspiring to me. >>>>>>> Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi XMCA folks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program >>>>>> with a >>>>>>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is >>>>>> attached. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>>>>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this >>>>>> fall for >>>>>>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application >>>>>> deadline is >>>>>>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jim Levin >>>>>>>> Professor >>>>>>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 17:27:49 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 17:27:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: cognitive linguistics and Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: <4200F3AE-4469-485F-B47D-0A58A951E568@gmail.com> References: <4200F3AE-4469-485F-B47D-0A58A951E568@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also would like to see a copy of the article, Minna mike On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > Hi Minna, > Perhaps you have seen the articles by Langacker that I just sent out to > the XMA community. I would certainly be interested in a copy of your > article. > Henry > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Helle Merja wrote: > > > > > A new article written with my colleagues combining activity theory > (change > > laboratory) and cognitive linguistics > > will be published in the September issue of Discourse & Society > > > > Minna Jaakola, Maija T?yry, Merja Helle, Tiina Onikki-Rantaj??sk? > > > > Construing the reader: > > A multidisciplinary approach > > to journalistic texts > > > > Abstract > > In order to compare the relationship between the intended aims of > > journalists and the journalistic > > texts produced, this article develops further the notion of the reader in > > two directions: first, > > as an intended ?model reader? of a media concept that is collectively > > construed in the editorial > > process and, second, as a ?construed reader? that is analyzed from the > > texts. Media concept and > > model reader are concepts and tools for making visible and analyzing the > > goals, values, content > > and organization of work in media organizations, whereas with the concept > > of a construed reader > > it is possible to assess the texts as outcomes of the editorial process > > and in this way compare > > them with the intentions. The construed reader in the text is analyzed > > from the viewpoint of > > cognitive grammar theory and its ?dimensions of construal? in which > > ?specificity?, ?focusing? and > > ?perspective? are used as linguistic tools for analysis. The case study > > data come from a Finnish > > third-sector magazine. > > Keywords > > cognitive grammar, construed reader, dimensions of construal, discourse > > analysis, Finnish, > > focusing, implied reader, intentions, magazine texts, media concept, > media > > studies, model > > reader, perspective, specificity > > > > E-mail me if you want a copy of the article > > > > Br > > > > merja > > > > > > Dr. Merja Helle > > > > Head of Research, Media Concepts Research Group, Aalto School of Arts, > > Design and Architecture > > H?meentie 135 C, 00560 Helsinkimerja.helle@aalto.fi > > tel. +358 50 4485 111 > > http://www.mediaconceptsrg.net/ > > http://mediaconceptsrg.blogspot.com/ > > http://taik.academia.edu/MerjaHelle > > > > > > On 30.8.2014 19.37, "mike cole" wrote: > > > >> The answers to both questions are yes. Grants are very difficult to > >> obtain, > >> but not impossible. Constructive suggestions from XMCA are not > guaranteed > >> but frequently obtained. :-) > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Rohini Nag > wrote: > >> > >>> Hello professor, > >>> > >>> Thank you for replying. > >>> Can grants be applied for and obtained at the UCSD doctoral programs > for > >>> international students specific to a research area? I'm sure the > >>> attainment > >>> of which shall be highly competitive. > >>> > >>> Also, can I send the abstract, or the concept I was trying to address > on > >>> Vygotsky and discourse analysis here on the mailing list? > >>> Rohini > >>> On Aug 30, 2014 9:26 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello Rohini-- > >>>> > >>>> Jim can answer more definitively concerning the new grad program. In > >>>> general, non-citizens are welcome in our graduate programs but the fee > >>>> structure works heavily against them. Even for native Californians, > >>>> higher > >>>> education has become expensive, but for not residents, and then > >>>> non-citizens it is very expensive. As a rule, sadly, money speaks with > >>>> a > >>>> louder voice than talent in many cases. > >>>> > >>>> Concerning Vygotsky and discourse analysis. It is not clear to me what > >>>> precisely you have been writing about and how, but why not send it > >>>> around > >>>> to xmca to see what you can learn from the extensive expertise on the > >>>> list? > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Rohini Nag > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Dear Professors, > >>>>> > >>>>> I have been following the xmca mail for quite a while now and the > >>>>> conversations always keep me interested. This reply is to ask Prof. > >>>>> Levin > >>>>> about the flyer I just read on the doctoral program in educational > >>>>> studies. > >>>>> Are international students eligible to apply too? > >>>>> I'm a research scholar in educational studies in JNU, New Delhi, > India > >>>>> and happen to be trained in Linguistics, MA. I wish to work in the > >>>>> area of > >>>>> cognition and language in future and well, just writing to know if I > >>>>> could > >>>>> at least apply? > >>>>> > >>>>> Another question- I had written a course paper last year trying to do > >>>>> a > >>>>> discourse analysis on Vygotsky's Thought and Language, commenting on > >>>>> Vygotsky's own discourse as much as read in light of its translation > >>>>> to be > >>>>> developmental, as in a developmental discourse. I just wanted to > >>>>> know, if > >>>>> such work has been previously done including the tools for discourse > >>>>> analysis? I wanted to build on this conceptually, any suggestions if > >>>>> this > >>>>> can at all be pursued? > >>>>> I have only started reading a lot of Vygotsky a year ago, and most of > >>>>> your comments/conversations have dealt with many theories of Vygotsky > >>>>> that > >>>>> have been insightful. > >>>>> > >>>>> Warmly, > >>>>> Rohini Nag > >>>>> MPhil-II > >>>>> Zakir Husain Centre for Educational Studies > >>>>> Jawaharlal Nehru University > >>>>> New Delhi-110067 > >>>>> India > >>>>> On Aug 30, 2014 6:32 AM, "mike cole" wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really > >>>>>> interesting > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see > the > >>>>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of > >>>>>> Giles > >>>>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in > >>>>>> Vygotsky's > >>>>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming > from > >>>>>> different national traditions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. > >>>>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? > >>>>>> mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III < > >>>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Jim, > >>>>>>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would > >>>>>> like > >>>>>>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with > >>>>>> Ronald > >>>>>>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar > >>>>>> with is > >>>>>>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent > >>>>>> me, he > >>>>>>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It > >>>>>> seems > >>>>>>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical > >>>>>>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are > >>>>>> developing. > >>>>>> I > >>>>>>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have > >>>>>> been > >>>>>>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the > >>>>>> beginning. > >>>>>>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new > >>>>>> program is > >>>>>>> inspiring to me. > >>>>>>> Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi XMCA folks, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program > >>>>>> with a > >>>>>>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is > >>>>>> attached. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this > >>>>>>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this > >>>>>> fall for > >>>>>>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application > >>>>>> deadline > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Jim Levin > >>>>>>>> Professor > >>>>>>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > > > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Aug 30 17:39:14 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 10:39:14 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> <2A41C980-4AC3-4E4C-A9EB-452B0A35750F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54026EB2.8000801@mira.net> Helena Worthen and Greg Thompson have responded off-line, in addition to Robert Lake and you who proposed it, Mike. And Helena wants to involve someone on the Highlander faculty. When does a collaborative review article become a broth with too many cooks? Pretty soon I think. I will send a message to this group off-line to see if we can get a plan. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > I have heard no news of deadlines about an article of the sort I thought > Andy was suggesting. And it appears that at least Andy and Robert are > interested, and perhaps Henry? And? > > No centralized organization seems appropriate here. Those interested can > recognize themselves from the discussion and let the editors what emerges. > > The theme(s) is/are clearly generative of interest. > mike > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III > wrote: > > >> Hi Robert and Andy, >> Taking a biographical perspective on a smaller scale, it's interesting >> that an Australian Vygotskian/Hegellian/dialectic scholar would find so >> interesting the civil rights work of a courageous Black woman, that a white >> professor who gets impetus for writing while in movement (as he explains in >> his letter to Vera) would have a thorough knowledge of her work, and that a >> Black scholar (Lisa Delpit), should be associated with the "dark side" in >> literacy for minorities. How pun-ishingly ironic, maybe at the heart of the >> dialectic? Does it make sense to see such "entanglements" as consonant with >> a fractal model of history and culture, fractal formations at any scale >> being "self similar" and complex. Surely dialect thinking and fractal >> thinking are blendable, just as science and art are blendable. I am >> thinking about Fauconnier and Turner (on blending), Cantor (on fractals) >> and articles by Andy on metaphor and narrative, romantic science and the >> interaction of conceptual and pre-conceptual thinking. One more personal >> anecdote ties in. Two weekends ago my wife and I had lunch with Vera and >> Ruben in Santa Fe. She talked about the creative "leap". In her 1985 >> Notebooks of the Mind, Vera talks about "the joining of rapid bursts of >> thought with a regime of disciplined work". And finally, Anna Stetsenko in >> the the letters to Vera (Constructing a Community of Thought), argues that >> "Creativity?is an ineluctable feature of all and every person in their even >> utmost mundane activities and pursuits of everyday life." Vera and Vygotsky >> bring us creativity at all scales. Typically, "going to scale" means >> growth. Cancer is a growth. Destructive. Creativity is generative, >> nurturing. In all of this I find hope, which was got me into the xmca >> dialog in the first place. >> Henry >> >> >> >> On Aug 29, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >> >> >>> ?Hi ? >>> ?Andy, >>> I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation of >>> >> SNCC . >> >>> She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times (both >>> >> white >> >>> and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see >>> recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were >>> credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? >>> ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she >>> taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? >>> ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the formation of >>> >> the >> >>> Freedom School Curriculum. >>> >>> I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography from >>> >> her >> >>> family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown *Ready >>> from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon >>> Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly detailed >>> >> with >> >>> many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources from >>> >> the >> >>> University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. >>> >>> Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be useful to >>> you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. >>> >>> http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html >>> >>> *Robert* >>> >>> >>> ? >>> >>> On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >>> >>> >>>> So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, Robert. >>>> I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called "Highlander. >>>> >> No >> >>>> Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get >>>> everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark was in >>>> charge of the discussions with the students who later joined SNCC. So >>>> >> she >> >>>> is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, >>>> including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an autobiography she >>>> wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Robert Lake wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>> Yes I do. Start with this . >>>>> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >>>>> >>>>> And this biography of Myles Horton >>>>> >>>>> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >>>>> and the biography of Septima Clark. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >>>>> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >>>>> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >>>> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >>>>> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >>>>> >>>>> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles >>>>> Horton and Paulo Freire >>>>> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >>>>> >>>>> More Later, >>>>> Robert Lake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I will send more this afternoon. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >>>> >> > >>>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what >>>>> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >>>>> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off >>>>> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other >>>>> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >>>>> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were >>>>> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> *Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>>>> Georgia Southern University >>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>>>> P. O. Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Aug 30 18:55:27 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 01:55:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Can someone tell me the similarities and differences between Langacker's Cognitive Grammar and Halliday's Systemic Functional Linguistics? Martin On Aug 30, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > Hi Mike, > I am attaching the articles that Langacker just sent me. I have not been able to read them completely yet. But he assured me that Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar are compatible and sent me the articles to back that up. I can't promise a review article?yet. That would require i have total confidence in my understanding of the articles. When you read the abstracts you'll see my hesitation. Still, in the past, I got his thinking, just took time. In any case, I am glad to put these articles out to the XMA community, since I am convinced that smart people will see the connection between Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar, if they dig deep. There may be other linguists out there ready to take it on.I say to them, "Go for it!" Vygotsky deserves all the appropriate linguistic analysis he can get, don't you think? Chomsky, whom Langacker departs from in many important ways, does not, in my opinion, provide such an analysis. Fauconnier and Lakoff both are great on metaphor and blending. But I think the nitty gritty grammatical analysis, with nouns and verbs, and all that stuff, is needed. I will let Langacker know of your interest. Who knows, he may agree to review anything I write. We'll see. > Henry > > > [The attachment elliptic coordination.pdf has been manually removed] > > > > [The attachment interactive cognition.pdf has been manually removed] > > > > > On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that >> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and >> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >> >> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's >> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >> different national traditions. >> >> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jim, >>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like >>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald >>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is >>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems >>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. >>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >>> inspiring to me. >>> Henry >>> >>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>> >>>> Hi XMCA folks, >>>> >>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a >>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. >>>> >>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for >>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is >>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Jim Levin >>>> Professor >>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>> >>> >>> >>> > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Aug 30 21:03:40 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 13:03:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Halliday and Langacker Message-ID: Martin: Langacker was here at my uni not long ago, and I was rather struck by the similarity between his work and Halliday's. Halliday is, of course, not at all a cognitivist: he believes that cognition just one mode of social being. But Langacker shares (at least) three important points with Halliday: a) Neither H nor L see that "words" and "rules" are separate things. The rule is just a word's eye view of the clause, and a rule is a clause-eye view of the word. Both are quite explicitly influenced by Gestaltist ideas. b) Both H and L see that the grammar has a kind of "grounding" function (e.g. the word "the" grounds you in your context, the "Does" in "Does Martin care?" grounds you in the present). For H, it grounds you in a set of choices where the things not said are as important to your choice as the things that are said, while for L it grounds you in a set of structures that are (a little too close to stereotypes or prototypes for my taste, but I have rather strong prejudices here). c) Neither H nor L sees that language is innate or that language structures are intrinsically universal. H is somewhat more open to the idea that a language structure can be ubiquitous without being intrinsically universal; L seems somewhat more of a cultural relativist (to me). For my work, though, H is a lot more congenial; H takes a very militant developmentalist view, writes brilliantly on child language, and he's always interested in what he calls "appliable" theories, hence his work with genre-based teaching in Australia. (I just got this neat little code from Elsevier, which allows anybody in my social network to click on my article for free until October: it's about a rather fetching and somewhat abstruse bit of Korean data, but it does include a fairly extended discussion of H's compatibility with Vygotsky in it!) http://authors.elsevier.com/a/1Pcct_KRdigetj David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Aug 31 07:58:03 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 07:58:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Highlander Center in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <54026EB2.8000801@mira.net> References: <53F9E94F.4060506@mira.net> <5400424D.4070208@mira.net> <2A41C980-4AC3-4E4C-A9EB-452B0A35750F@gmail.com> <54026EB2.8000801@mira.net> Message-ID: Good luck, all. Mike On Saturday, August 30, 2014, Andy Blunden wrote: > Helena Worthen and Greg Thompson have responded off-line, in addition to > Robert Lake and you who proposed it, Mike. And Helena wants to involve > someone on the Highlander faculty. When does a collaborative review article > become a broth with too many cooks? Pretty soon I think. > I will send a message to this group off-line to see if we can get a plan. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> I have heard no news of deadlines about an article of the sort I thought >> Andy was suggesting. And it appears that at least Andy and Robert are >> interested, and perhaps Henry? And? >> >> No centralized organization seems appropriate here. Those interested can >> recognize themselves from the discussion and let the editors what emerges. >> >> The theme(s) is/are clearly generative of interest. >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III > > >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Robert and Andy, >>> Taking a biographical perspective on a smaller scale, it's interesting >>> that an Australian Vygotskian/Hegellian/dialectic scholar would find so >>> interesting the civil rights work of a courageous Black woman, that a >>> white >>> professor who gets impetus for writing while in movement (as he explains >>> in >>> his letter to Vera) would have a thorough knowledge of her work, and >>> that a >>> Black scholar (Lisa Delpit), should be associated with the "dark side" in >>> literacy for minorities. How pun-ishingly ironic, maybe at the heart of >>> the >>> dialectic? Does it make sense to see such "entanglements" as consonant >>> with >>> a fractal model of history and culture, fractal formations at any scale >>> being "self similar" and complex. Surely dialect thinking and fractal >>> thinking are blendable, just as science and art are blendable. I am >>> thinking about Fauconnier and Turner (on blending), Cantor (on fractals) >>> and articles by Andy on metaphor and narrative, romantic science and the >>> interaction of conceptual and pre-conceptual thinking. One more personal >>> anecdote ties in. Two weekends ago my wife and I had lunch with Vera and >>> Ruben in Santa Fe. She talked about the creative "leap". In her 1985 >>> Notebooks of the Mind, Vera talks about "the joining of rapid bursts of >>> thought with a regime of disciplined work". And finally, Anna Stetsenko >>> in >>> the the letters to Vera (Constructing a Community of Thought), argues >>> that >>> "Creativity?is an ineluctable feature of all and every person in their >>> even >>> utmost mundane activities and pursuits of everyday life." Vera and >>> Vygotsky >>> bring us creativity at all scales. Typically, "going to scale" means >>> growth. Cancer is a growth. Destructive. Creativity is generative, >>> nurturing. In all of this I find hope, which was got me into the xmca >>> dialog in the first place. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 29, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Robert Lake >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> ?Hi ? >>>> ?Andy, >>>> I am so glad you are intrigued by Septima's role in the formation of >>>> >>>> >>> SNCC . >>> >>> >>>> She was often overlooked in the chauvinist culture of the times (both >>>> >>>> >>> white >>> >>> >>>> and black) and that is why began researching her life. Most people see >>>> recognize Rosa Parks and Ella Baker's role and later those who were >>>> credited for the "Freedom School curriculum? >>>> ?". If you look at Clark's life and the manner and content of what she >>>> taught on John's Island and other parts of South Carolina, ? >>>> ?you can easily recognize that her work was seminal in the formation of >>>> >>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>> Freedom School Curriculum. >>>> >>>> I have tried to get permission to reprint Septima's autobiography from >>>> >>>> >>> her >>> >>> >>>> family, but I have been unsuccessful. The book by Cynthia Brown *Ready >>>> from Within *has a lot of primary source interviews. Catherine Mellon >>>> Charon's book, *Septima Clark: Freedom's Teacher *is richly detailed >>>> >>>> >>> with >>> >>> >>>> many interviews of her friends and documents from primary sources from >>>> >>>> >>> the >>> >>> >>>> University of Wisconsin Highlander collection. >>>> >>>> Here is a link to a recorded interview with Septima that may be useful >>>> to >>>> you. I enjoyed hearing her voice at least. >>>> >>>> http://docsouth.unc.edu/sohp/G-0017/menu.html >>>> >>>> *Robert* >>>> >>>> >>>> ? >>>> >>>> On Aug 29, 2014 5:05 AM, "Andy Blunden" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> So you are placing Septima Clark right up there in importance, Robert. >>>>> I am part way through a "chronicle" of Highlander, called "Highlander. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> No >>> >>> >>>> Ordinary school, 1932-1962". It is very useful for me, so I can get >>>>> everything in sequence. So here I discovered that Septima Clark was in >>>>> charge of the discussions with the students who later joined SNCC. So >>>>> >>>>> >>>> she >>> >>> >>>> is coming into focus for me. I have just ordered two books on her, >>>>> including the one you recommended. Unfortuantely, an autobiography she >>>>> wrote in 1962 seems to be out of print and entirely unavailable now. >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Robert Lake wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Andy, >>>>>> Yes I do. Start with this . >>>>>> http://highlandercenter.org/about-us/history/ >>>>>> >>>>>> And this biography of Myles Horton >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-Haul-An-Autobiography/dp/0807737003 >>>>>> and the biography of Septima Clark. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima- >>>>>> Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid= >>>>>> 1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark >>>>> Freedoms-Teacher-Life-Septima-Clark/dp/0807872229/ref=sr_1_ >>>>>> 2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1408889271&sr=1-2&keywords=septima+clark> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have written a piece on her as well and will send it this afternoon. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the book We Make the Road by Walking: A dialogue between Myles >>>>>> Horton and Paulo Freire >>>>>> is one of the best books on both these leaders. >>>>>> >>>>>> More Later, >>>>>> Robert Lake >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I will send more this afternoon. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone on this list know about the Highlander Center, what >>>>>> used to be called the Highlander Folk School? >>>>>> The people there are very helpful, but they're also rushed off >>>>>> their feet (like everyone, I guess) and if there were any other >>>>>> sources of information about it, that would be helpful. I'm >>>>>> particularly interested if anyone is familiar with what they were >>>>>> doing in the 1950s and 60s. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> -- ------------------------------ >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> ------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>>> *Associate Professor >>>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>>>>> Georgia Southern University >>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group >>>>>> P. O. Box 8144 >>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From ewall@umich.edu Sun Aug 31 17:23:35 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 19:23:35 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8630C26B-2F48-4BAF-AFFB-2805ADADCDE5@umich.edu> Martin I have used SFL over time to frame some thinking about classroom discourse, but I know little about cognitive grammar. However, glancing at the attachments I can see that the bibliography seems to have a very different slant. In fact, as I was reading the articles, I felt like I was reading something from somewhat the same genre as the philosophy of language (which is not next necessarily a problem). Anyway, I don't see large incompatibilities and there has been some discussion on the SFL list about a greater emphasis on cognition (although there are counter arguments that it is already there). My only large hesitation is that the 'systemic' part seems missing from cognitive grammar (at least what I can see in these articles) and it seems a little less flexible. However, I really can't judge from only two articles by a single author. I guess I wonder how cognitive grammar has been used to think about actual text or discourse as has been the case with SFL. Ed On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Can someone tell me the similarities and differences between Langacker's Cognitive Grammar and Halliday's Systemic Functional Linguistics? > > Martin > > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> I am attaching the articles that Langacker just sent me. I have not been able to read them completely yet. But he assured me that Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar are compatible and sent me the articles to back that up. I can't promise a review article?yet. That would require i have total confidence in my understanding of the articles. When you read the abstracts you'll see my hesitation. Still, in the past, I got his thinking, just took time. In any case, I am glad to put these articles out to the XMA community, since I am convinced that smart people will see the connection between Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar, if they dig deep. There may be other linguists out there ready to take it on.I say to them, "Go for it!" Vygotsky deserves all the appropriate linguistic analysis he can get, don't you think? Chomsky, whom Langacker departs from in many important ways, does not, in my opinion, provide such an analysis. Fauconnier and Lakoff both are great on metaphor and blending. But I think the nitty gritty grammatical analysis, with nouns and verbs, and all that stuff, is needed. I will let Langacker know of your interest. Who knows, he may agree to review anything I write. We'll see. >> Henry >> >> >> [The attachment elliptic coordination.pdf has been manually removed] >> >> >> >> [The attachment interactive cognition.pdf has been manually removed] >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that >>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and >>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>> >>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's >>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>> different national traditions. >>> >>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jim, >>>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like >>>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald >>>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is >>>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >>>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems >>>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >>>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. >>>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >>>> inspiring to me. >>>> Henry >>>> >>>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi XMCA folks, >>>>> >>>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a >>>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. >>>>> >>>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for >>>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is >>>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Jim Levin >>>>> Professor >>>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sun Aug 31 18:02:29 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 01:02:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: a new Ph.D. program at UC San Diego with a focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society In-Reply-To: <8630C26B-2F48-4BAF-AFFB-2805ADADCDE5@umich.edu> References: <99DE8B11-CAD6-42FC-9C99-2A53C435152F@ucsd.edu> <0257A250-54BD-4050-AC59-B7597C6918A3@gmail.com> <8630C26B-2F48-4BAF-AFFB-2805ADADCDE5@umich.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Ed, and David, I was enchanted by Halliday's book Learning How to Mean when it was published in 1975, and then he moved to Australia and at that time, without internet, that meant he disappeared from my radar. Now catching up on his work, I do find that his emphasis on system strikes me as important - as we talk we are continually making the choices that lead to a produced utterance. Formal models of language seem to me to construe the language faculty as in essence running itself, generating grammatical sentences of infinite variety but little practice relevance. I don't know Langacker's work well enough to know if he has a similar emphasis. I'm now wondering what is meant by being "compatible" with Vygotsky. What I wonder are the features of LSV's account of language that accord with SFL or CG? Martin On Aug 31, 2014, at 7:23 PM, Ed Wall wrote: > Martin > > I have used SFL over time to frame some thinking about classroom discourse, but I know little about cognitive grammar. However, glancing at the attachments I can see that the bibliography seems to have a very different slant. In fact, as I was reading the articles, I felt like I was reading something from somewhat the same genre as the philosophy of language (which is not next necessarily a problem). Anyway, I don't see large incompatibilities and there has been some discussion on the SFL list about a greater emphasis on cognition (although there are counter arguments that it is already there). > My only large hesitation is that the 'systemic' part seems missing from cognitive grammar (at least what I can see in these articles) and it seems a little less flexible. However, I really can't judge from only two articles by a single author. I guess I wonder how cognitive grammar has been used to think about actual text or discourse as has been the case with SFL. > > Ed > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Can someone tell me the similarities and differences between Langacker's Cognitive Grammar and Halliday's Systemic Functional Linguistics? >> >> Martin >> >> >> On Aug 30, 2014, at 4:48 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I am attaching the articles that Langacker just sent me. I have not been able to read them completely yet. But he assured me that Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar are compatible and sent me the articles to back that up. I can't promise a review article?yet. That would require i have total confidence in my understanding of the articles. When you read the abstracts you'll see my hesitation. Still, in the past, I got his thinking, just took time. In any case, I am glad to put these articles out to the XMA community, since I am convinced that smart people will see the connection between Vygotsky and Cognitive Grammar, if they dig deep. There may be other linguists out there ready to take it on.I say to them, "Go for it!" Vygotsky deserves all the appropriate linguistic analysis he can get, don't you think? Chomsky, whom Langacker departs from in many important ways, does not, in my opinion, provide such an analysis. Fauconnier and Lakoff both are great on metaphor and blending. But I think the nitty gritty grammatical analysis, with nouns and verbs, and all that stuff, is needed. I will let Langacker know of your interest. Who knows, he may agree to review anything I write. We'll see. >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> [The attachment elliptic coordination.pdf has been manually removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> [The attachment interactive cognition.pdf has been manually removed] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:58 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Henry-- As you will see from the attachment that Jim sent around that >>>> the developing education department here at UCSD is really interesting and >>>> should be of interest to a lot of MCA members. >>>> >>>> On the issue of Langackerr and Vygotsky, it would be great to see the >>>> articles you are referring to. His work along the with the work of Giles >>>> Faulconier are clearly relevant to people who are interested in Vygotsky's >>>> ideas and those of related scholars such as Halliday, all coming from >>>> different national traditions. >>>> >>>> Nice idea for a review article in MCA. >>>> But more proximaly, what should we be reading? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>> Nothing attached, I think. Sounds very interesting, so I sure would like >>>>> to get the flyer. By chance, I am in an email correspondence with Ronald >>>>> Langacker, emeritus prof in linguistics at UCSD. Are you familiar with is >>>>> work in Cognitive Linguistics? In several articles he just sent me, he >>>>> agrees with me that Vygotsky and his work are highly compatible. It seems >>>>> to me that CG and Vygotsky could help provide a great theoretical >>>>> foundation for a doctoral program such as the one you are developing. I >>>>> have been a teacher educator in New Mexico for 25 years and have been >>>>> thinking about the connection between CG and Vygotsky from the beginning. >>>>> My dissertation is on L2 learning, so the focus of your new program is >>>>> inspiring to me. >>>>> Henry >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 28, 2014, at 5:21 PM, Jim Levin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi XMCA folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Education Studies at UC San Diego is starting a new Ph.D. program with a >>>>> focus on Transforming Education in a Diverse Society - a flyer is attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you know of students who you think might be interested in this >>>>> doctoral program, please encourage them to consider applying this fall for >>>>> our inaugural cohort to start in Fall 2015 - the application deadline is >>>>> December 1, 2014. I?m happy to answer any questions they may have. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim Levin >>>>>> Professor >>>>>> Department of Education Studies, UC San Diego >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> > >