[Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Wed Apr 2 16:40:33 PDT 2014
I think there is a sense in which the immediate is a "flow", as in "one
damn thing after another."
Mediation always entails an "ever-present" element, reflection or
development.
But of course: "There is nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in
mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain both immediacy and
mediation."
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm#0092
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Greg Thompson wrote:
> Michael,
> Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated?
> Or are you saying something else?
> -greg
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>wrote:
>
>
>> Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share.
>> Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of
>> immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes
>> refers to as primary experience and secondary experience.
>>
>> Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article
>> that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation
>>
>> The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used in
>> the
>> sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or
>> agent'
>> (Simpson, 2005a).
>>
>> What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural
>> historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be
>> interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions
>> yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is that
>> he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is
>> what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you
>> make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is
>> given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us forward.
>> Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience is
>> the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate
>> experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back
>> and forth but always starting with immediate experience.
>>
>> Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to try
>> and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees
>> what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of
>> the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our
>> activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the
>> sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that is
>> what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach activities
>> as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience.
>>
>> Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate
>> experience coming out of this conversation.
>>
>> Michael
>> ________________________________________
>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM
>> To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
>> Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he
>> is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is
>> sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do
>> we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world?
>>
>> Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view.
>> mike
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand,
>>> unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>>> President
>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
>>> www.mocombeian.com
>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com
>>> www.paulcmocombe.info
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: "Glassman, Michael"
>>> Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously,
>>> without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I
>>>
>> think
>>
>>> of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as
>>> overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a
>>> bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what
>>> about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take
>>> us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is
>>> happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are
>>>
>> they
>>
>>> really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone
>>> yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been
>>> controlling our behavioral trajectory.
>>>
>>> I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia
>>> Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?)
>>>
>> or
>>
>>> perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I
>>>
>> am
>>
>>> having a hard time processing.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
>>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>>
>>> Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual
>>> stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural
>>> artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other
>>>
>> but
>>
>>> are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with
>>> respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this
>>>
>> "tool"
>>
>>> and control yourself "from the outside" ??
>>>
>>> Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling.
>>>
>>> Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a
>>>
>> productive
>>
>>> person to think with. See below.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
>>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing
>>>>
>> so
>>
>>>> that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>>>> President
>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
>>>> www.mocombeian.com
>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com
>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info
>>>>
>>>> <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: "Glassman,
>>>> Michael" <glassman.13@osu.edu> </div><div>Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM
>>>> (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
>>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> </div><div>Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's
>>>> theory and symbolic interactionism </div><div>
>>>> </div>Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as
>>>>
>>> being
>>>
>>>> a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than
>>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>> might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory
>>>>
>>> taken
>>>
>>>> by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day.
>>>>
>> I'm
>>
>>>> not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>
>> ]
>>
>>>> on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole
>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>>>
>>>> At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave
>>>> dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e.
>>>> Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to
>>>> socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar
>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I
>>>>
>>> have
>>>
>>>> a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as
>>>>
>> always
>>
>>>> an element of power and domination. In essence my research question
>>>>
>> is,
>>
>>>> "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to
>>>> socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics
>>>>
>>> says
>>>
>>>> yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in
>>>>
>> her
>>
>>>> ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this
>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>> her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go
>>>>
>> into
>>
>>>> the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>>>> President
>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
>>>> www.mocombeian.com
>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com
>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info
>>>>
>>>> <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Greg Thompson <
>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> </div><div>Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM
>>>> (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>,"eXtended
>>>>
>>> Mind,
>>>
>>>> Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> </div><div>Subject:
>>>>
>>> [Xmca-l]
>>>
>>>> Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism </div><div>
>>>> </div>Paul,
>>>> And another piece you might be interested in:
>>>> Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction
>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>> the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and
>>>>
>> Kaye
>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447.
>>>> doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433
>>>>
>>>> I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead.
>>>>
>>> Mead
>>>
>>>> said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what
>>>> Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have
>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>> exact quote somewhere if you're interested.
>>>>
>>>> The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but
>>>>
>>> it
>>>
>>>> seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been
>>>> influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I
>>>>
>> think
>>
>>>> they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other
>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>> this argument...).
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and
>>>> complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat
>>>>
>> about
>>
>>>> the Mead/Vygotsky link.
>>>>
>>>> -greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion
>>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>>> Vygotsky".
>>>>>
>>>>> I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to
>>>>>
>> understand
>>
>>>>> where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework.
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
>>>>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert
>>>>>>
>>> mead's
>>>
>>>>>> symbolic interactionism with
>>>>>> vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>>>>>> President
>>>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
>>>>>> www.mocombeian.com
>>>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com
>>>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities
>>>>>> www.routledge.com/9780415714372
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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