From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 02:17:18 2014 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:17:18 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ignorance as a driver in science Message-ID: Dear colleagues, As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I plan to work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the value of Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a related question. Would you accept to share with the community here your answers to the following question: Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would dream to get an answer in the next ten years ? I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community (cognition and development). The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of things that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and (c) to compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of ignorance, (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and world. I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to an accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from engaging truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics (which is also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be crushed under them). What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological questions be ? Thanks for your help, Best, LK From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Apr 1 02:36:05 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:36:05 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: I do not know how useful my 'butting-in' here will be, but here is one view on the "If Nazi, then an invalid philosopher" question/problem: http://www.metamute.org/community/your-posts/heidegger-fuhrer-principal Tom On 31 March 2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: > Hi Mike, > I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of > Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the > philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to > elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi > worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt > that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other > philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite > naturalized. > > What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of > intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center > stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he > did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and > after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his > moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of > his writings. > > Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the end: > http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html > > David > > > > On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the > black > > notebooks, David. > > > > Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism > > t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and > its > > epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism > and > > money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? > > Or is that too simple? > > > > Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of > a > > historical German cultural narrative? > > > > (signed) > > The blind man with a stick > > mike > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > > >> Martin: > >> > >> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what > >> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the > >> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. > >> > >> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, > >> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who > >> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. > >> > >> > >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 > >> > >> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are > >> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer > >> wrote: > >>> Hi David, > >>> > >>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, > >> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was > >> working on was also important to philosophers with very different > politics. > >> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and > Lukacs > >> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was > >> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence > was > >> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. > (The > >> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) > >>> > >>> Martin > >>> > >>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. > >> Routledge and Kegan Paul. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of > >> interest or not. > >>>> DP > >>>> > >> > mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= > >>>> > >>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 02:36:51 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 05:36:51 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: Thank you charles Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Nektarios Alexi
Date:04/01/2014 1:07 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Indeed, I had a look and it seems to be a germ! -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2014 2:27 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Charles, Your book looks fascinating and is free to download. What a generous gift to the world On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > My? recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on Vygotsky > and friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic > interactionism and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they > articulate and contrast with other traditions, including some specific > comparisons with LSV. The book is downloadable at > http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ > Chuck > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Larry Purss > Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Paul > > Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko > > in his most recent article's exploring Mead's work.? Anna Stetsenko > > has also written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism > > with? her > reading > > of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical > mediations. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > > > mead's symbolic interactionism with vygotsky's theory....any > > > suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 02:39:42 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 05:39:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: Mike thus was a real big help thank you... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: mike cole
Date:03/31/2014 7:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to Vygotsky". I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. mike On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > symbolic interactionism with > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 02:40:55 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 05:40:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: Thank you greg.... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 02:58:45 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 05:58:45 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to socialization via language and symbolic interaction. ?This is similar to the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. ?I have a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always an element of power and domination. ?In essence my research question is, "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to socialization/domination by symbols and language. ?Haitian metaphysics says yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the i and me of language and symbolic interaction. ?Zora Neale hurston in her ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in her literature...it is the essence of who we are. ?I may have to go into the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From rakahu@utu.fi Tue Apr 1 03:11:23 2014 From: rakahu@utu.fi (Rauno Huttunen) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:11:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism: I, me and myself = Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself Message-ID: Hello, Also Hegel's logic can be seen in Mead's concepts of I, me and myself. They actually correspond Hegel's evolution (phenomenology) of Geist (Spirit): Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself. Rauno Huttunen -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: 1. huhtikuuta 2014 12:59 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to socialization via language and symbolic interaction. ?This is similar to the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. ?I have a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always an element of power and domination. ?In essence my research question is, "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to socialization/domination by symbols and language. ?Haitian metaphysics says yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the i and me of language and symbolic interaction. ?Zora Neale hurston in her ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in her literature...it is the essence of who we are. ?I may have to go into the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Tue Apr 1 04:37:59 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 22:37:59 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> Laure, I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" questions. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I plan to > work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the value of > Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a related > question. Would you accept to share with the community here your answers to > the following question: > > Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would dream to > get an answer in the next ten years ? > > I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community (cognition > and development). > > The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of things > that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and (c) to > compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of ignorance, > (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and world. > I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to an > accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from engaging > truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics (which is > also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be crushed > under them). > > What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological > questions be ? > Thanks for your help, > Best, > LK > > > From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 05:02:12 2014 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 14:02:12 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> Message-ID: I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? Cheers LK 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > Laure, > I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" > questions. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I plan to >> work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the value of >> Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a related >> question. Would you accept to share with the community here your answers >> to >> the following question: >> >> Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would dream to >> get an answer in the next ten years ? >> >> I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community (cognition >> and development). >> >> The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of things >> that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and (c) to >> compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of ignorance, >> (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and world. >> I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to an >> accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from engaging >> truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics (which is >> also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be crushed >> under them). >> >> What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological >> questions be ? >> Thanks for your help, >> Best, >> LK >> >> >> >> > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Apr 1 05:42:17 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 12:42:17 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism: I, me and myself = Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B191@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> I think it is important to recognize that while both Mead and Dewey read Hegel and very early in their careers (that's where they met I think) could be considered Hegelians. They, I think publicly moved away from Hegel as they entered into their more productive stages. I think some of this may have been from the goading of other Pragmatists of the time and there is a really big argument about the Hegelian deposit in both their writings, but it is important to be wary of connections with Hegel in Mead's especially later works. It also might be important to remember that symbolic interactionism was not Mead's term. I think it was coined by Herbert Blumer, definitely one of Mead's students at the University of Chicago, but after his death. I wonder what Mead would have thought especially considering Dewey's views of interactionsim (as not really explaining that much). A third thing is I think you can make a big argument about Mead putting a great deal of importance on language (at least as Andy points out as a mediating force in the way Vygotsky did). My own interpretation is that he saw individuals as developing their positions in society (self) based on their relationships with those around them, and language definitely serve as a vehicle for expressing those relationships, but it is the relationships themselves that are primary. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Rauno Huttunen [rakahu@utu.fi] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 6:11 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism: I, me and myself = Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself Hello, Also Hegel's logic can be seen in Mead's concepts of I, me and myself. They actually correspond Hegel's evolution (phenomenology) of Geist (Spirit): Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself. Rauno Huttunen -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: 1. huhtikuuta 2014 12:59 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I have a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics says yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 05:54:34 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:54:34 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> Message-ID: <814BC7DD-C24F-4702-A753-71B5B06C4B8F@gmail.com> One question that matters to me relates to the impact of schooling on human development widely understood. I growingly think that schooling is not compatible with the natural processes of cultural learning, as described by Tomasello. The question that arises is whether we can come up with scalable and inclusive alternatives that are informed by what we now know are species compatible ways of instructing and learning. David On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:02 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? > Cheers > LK > > > > 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > >> Laure, >> I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" >> questions. >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> >> Laure Kloetzer wrote: >> >>> Dear colleagues, >>> >>> As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I plan to >>> work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the value of >>> Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a related >>> question. Would you accept to share with the community here your answers >>> to >>> the following question: >>> >>> Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would dream to >>> get an answer in the next ten years ? >>> >>> I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community (cognition >>> and development). >>> >>> The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of things >>> that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and (c) to >>> compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of ignorance, >>> (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and world. >>> I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to an >>> accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from engaging >>> truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics (which is >>> also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be crushed >>> under them). >>> >>> What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological >>> questions be ? >>> Thanks for your help, >>> Best, >>> LK >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> From ablunden@mira.net Tue Apr 1 05:56:08 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 23:56:08 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> Message-ID: <533AB768.5080204@mira.net> If someone is committed to some project which entails destructive beliefs, how is it possible to "cut through" those beliefs? When people are engaged in projects or actions which cause injury to others, how is it possible to "cut through" that shield which makes them indifferent to the suffering they cause? In general, how is it possible to change deeply embedded cultural beliefs (I could list a number)? Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Laure Kloetzer wrote: > I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? > Cheers > LK > > > > 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden >: > > Laure, > I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" > questions. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > Laure Kloetzer wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > As part of an introduction course on psychology here in > France, I plan to > work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the > value of > Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask > you a related > question. Would you accept to share with the community here > your answers to > the following question: > > Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you > would dream to > get an answer in the next ten years ? > > I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community > (cognition > and development). > > The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a > lot of things > that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, > and (c) to > compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of > ignorance, > (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our > life and world. > I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open > alternatives to an > accumulative model of science, which prevents the students > from engaging > truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the > basics (which is > also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to > be crushed > under them). > > What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological > questions be ? > Thanks for your help, > Best, > LK > > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Apr 1 06:08:13 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:08:13 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B1D1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Paul, I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as being a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than you might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory taken by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. I'm not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I have a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics says yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 06:26:34 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:26:34 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Heidegger's Notebooks Renew Focus on Anti-Semitism - NYTimes.com In-Reply-To: References: <09947367-17B1-41E0-AEC6-912FBBBC0773@gmail.com> <198904F3-3452-457E-9A7C-10A06CDC7856@uniandes.edu.co> <4F25CCAE-7D8B-4DF1-BCC2-29AF853154E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FF4AA3F-55A0-4E1B-B9A5-D2E4D0150F43@gmail.com> This is a truly interesting piece, although the last sentence left an acid taste in my mouth: "But beyond that it is perhaps best to think of Heidegger?s moral evasions and somersaults as intellectually productive. Rather than trying to insulate the profundity of his thinking from the awfulness of his behaviour, the disturbing answer might be that it was a spur to his creative powers." Come on! Really? If we follow that claim, there is no way we can subject thinkers to any sort of ethical accountability of their actions (and omissions). I can't empathise with the notion that there are members of hour species that are subject to rules that will not apply to everybody else, however magnificent their contributions may be. David On Apr 1, 2014, at 6:36 AM, Tom Richardson wrote: > I do not know how useful my 'butting-in' here will be, but here is one view > on the "If Nazi, then an invalid philosopher" question/problem: > > http://www.metamute.org/community/your-posts/heidegger-fuhrer-principal > > Tom > > > On 31 March 2014 16:34, David Preiss wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> I yet don't know whether addressing the issue from the point of view of >> Heidegger's writings is relevant. I am aware that for many people in the >> philosophy departments what is attractive as a scholarly activity is to >> elucidate whether his philosophy has substantive connections with a Nazi >> worldview. I can understand why is interesting to them. And, yet, I doubt >> that the masses adhering to nazism got it from reading Heidegger or other >> philosophers as the nazism of the german populace was quite basic and quite >> naturalized. >> >> What I think is the real problem is how to judge the actions of >> intellectuals during times where the worst side of humanity takes center >> stage. Thus, I think that Heidegger has to be judged according to what he >> did, what he publicly said as regards the Holocaust (before, during and >> after). And we don't need to read the black notebooks to learn that his >> moral stature is not compatible with the sensitivity he shows in some of >> his writings. >> >> Alas, poor Celan, whom expected something different from him until the end: >> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/joris/todtnauberg.html >> >> David >> >> >> >> On Mar 31, 2014, at 2:18 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Among the many things to read, that was an interesting summary of the >> black >>> notebooks, David. >>> >>> Am i correct in interpreting the link between heidegger and anti-semitism >>> t, according to this account, to run through the sin of rationalism and >> its >>> epitome in mathematics as "calculation" presumably linking rationalism >> and >>> money lending, and hence the historical steretotype as in *Jew Suss*? >>> Or is that too simple? >>> >>> Is the anti-semitism endemic to the philosophy or contingent invasion of >> a >>> historical German cultural narrative? >>> >>> (signed) >>> The blind man with a stick >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:47 PM, David Kellogg >> wrote: >>> >>>> Martin: >>>> >>>> I've only seen short extracts from the "Black Notebooks", but what >>>> I've seen suggests that the real problem is not time but precisely the >>>> problem of "worlding" which was mentioned earlier. >>>> >>>> Jews, according to the "Black Notebooks", are an "unworlded" people, >>>> and because of that they are necessarily parasitic upon peoples who >>>> are deeply and profoundly in the world, i.e. his truly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?_r=0 >>>> >>>> It's a big world, and there are lots of other things to read. They are >>>> only short extracts, but they are more than enough. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> On 31 March 2014 10:02, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi David, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, this always the problem with Heidegger: his appalling politics, >>>> both professional and personal. However, the conceptual problem he was >>>> working on was also important to philosophers with very different >> politics. >>>> For example, Lucien Goldmann found parallels between Heidegger and >> Lukacs >>>> (ref below). I find it helpful to (try to) understand what Heidegger was >>>> trying to do, and also understand how a philosopher of human existence >> was >>>> unable to prevent himself from becoming a very unpleasant human being. >> (The >>>> problem lies in his treatment of time, in my view.) >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> Goldmann, L. (1979). Lukacs and Heidegger: Towards a new philosophy. >>>> Routledge and Kegan Paul. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 7:10 PM, David Preiss >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside to the ongoing references to Heidegger... May be of >>>> interest or not. >>>>>> DP >>>>>> >>>> >> mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/31/books/heideggers-notebooks-renew-focus-on-anti-semitism.html?referrer= >>>>>> >>>>>> Descarga la aplicaci?n oficial de Twitter aqu? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 06:27:22 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 10:27:22 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAA3C223DCB@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> References: <0h94w4durogiwosq4x215niq.1396296383789@email.android.com> <9B897406F73DDE47881BCDD887EF6EAA3C223DCB@oystercatcher.cdu-staff.local> Message-ID: This is truly great! Thank you very much! David On Apr 1, 2014, at 2:07 AM, Nektarios Alexi wrote: > Indeed, I had a look and it seems to be a germ! > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Purss > Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2014 2:27 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Charles, > > Your book looks fascinating and is free to download. What a generous gift to the world > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Charles Bazerman < bazerman@education.ucsb.edu> wrote: > >> My recent book A THEORY OF LITERATE ACTION relies heavily on Vygotsky >> and friends (see chapters 2 & 3), then discusses Mead, symbolic >> interactionism and other pragmatists in Chapter 5, showing how they >> articulate and contrast with other traditions, including some specific >> comparisons with LSV. The book is downloadable at >> http://wac.colostate.edu/books/literateaction/v2/ >> Chuck >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Larry Purss >> Date: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:32 pm >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >>> Paul >>> Jack Martin at Simon Fraser University has referenced Anna Stetsenko >>> in his most recent article's exploring Mead's work. Anna Stetsenko >>> has also written contrasting pragmatism's focus on interactionism >>> with her >> reading >>> of Vygotsky as emphasizing *transformative* cultural historical >> mediations. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert >>>> mead's symbolic interactionism with vygotsky's theory....any >>>> suggestions anyone? >>>> >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>> President >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>> >>>> Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >>>> www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 06:46:21 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 06:46:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: <814BC7DD-C24F-4702-A753-71B5B06C4B8F@gmail.com> References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> <814BC7DD-C24F-4702-A753-71B5B06C4B8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good luck in your inquiry, Laure. Here is my question: If an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, what changes in human development would be required to implement practices that privilege prevention instead of repair? David -- What is the incompatibility you see between schooling and cultural learning? My own take on this issue remains what it was a while back, as laid out in the attached. So far as I can tell, the default answer to your question widely accepted among both developmentalists and the public is the intense preparation for schooling beginning as early as possible in children's lives is the only way to go. More, not less, emphasis on school-as-we-know-it -- and lots more of it. Paradoxical, isn't it? mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:54 AM, David Preiss wrote: > One question that matters to me relates to the impact of schooling on > human development widely understood. I growingly think that schooling is > not compatible with the natural processes of cultural learning, as > described by Tomasello. The question that arises is whether we can come up > with scalable and inclusive alternatives that are informed by what we now > know are species compatible ways of instructing and learning. > David > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:02 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > > > I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? > > Cheers > > LK > > > > > > > > 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > > > >> Laure, > >> I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" > >> questions. > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> > >> Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> > >>> Dear colleagues, > >>> > >>> As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I plan > to > >>> work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the value of > >>> Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a > related > >>> question. Would you accept to share with the community here your > answers > >>> to > >>> the following question: > >>> > >>> Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would > dream to > >>> get an answer in the next ten years ? > >>> > >>> I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community > (cognition > >>> and development). > >>> > >>> The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of > things > >>> that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and (c) > to > >>> compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of > ignorance, > >>> (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and > world. > >>> I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to an > >>> accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from > engaging > >>> truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics > (which is > >>> also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be > crushed > >>> under them). > >>> > >>> What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological > >>> questions be ? > >>> Thanks for your help, > >>> Best, > >>> LK > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: coleaera.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 235775 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140401/c99a41aa/attachment.pdf From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 07:24:39 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:24:39 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as being a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than you might think.? Have you looked at labeling theory?? Also a trajectory taken by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day.? I'm not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 07:32:18 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 10:32:18 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism: I, me and myself = Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself Message-ID: Yes it is Herbert blumer who introduced the term...i was introduced to blumer and mead by my dissertation adviser the late Stanford lyman. ?Lyman and arthur vidich, influenced by sartre's existentialism, employed their sociology of the absurd to supplement symbolic interactionism. ?Lyman in his last work, "postmodernism and the sociology of the absurd," attempts to draw a parallel between the latter with the former of the title. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 8:42 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism: I, me and myself = Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself
I think it is important to recognize that while both Mead and Dewey read Hegel and very early in their careers? (that's where they met I think) could be considered Hegelians.? They, I think publicly moved away from Hegel as they entered into their more productive stages.? I think some of this may have been from the goading of other Pragmatists of the time and? there is a really big argument about the Hegelian deposit in both their writings, but it is important to be wary of connections with Hegel in Mead's especially later works. It also might be important to remember that symbolic interactionism was not Mead's term.? I think it was coined by Herbert Blumer, definitely one of Mead's students at the University of Chicago, but after his death.? I wonder what Mead would have thought especially considering Dewey's views of interactionsim (as not really explaining that much). A third thing is I think you can make a big argument about Mead putting a great deal of importance on language (at least as Andy points out as a mediating force in the way Vygotsky did).? My own interpretation is that he saw individuals as developing their positions in society (self) based on their relationships with those around them, and language definitely serve as a vehicle for expressing those relationships, but it is the relationships themselves that are primary. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Rauno Huttunen [rakahu@utu.fi] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 6:11 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism: I, me and myself = Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself Hello, Also Hegel's logic can be seen in Mead's concepts of I, me and myself. They actually correspond Hegel's evolution (phenomenology) of Geist (Spirit): Spirit in-itself, Spirit for-itself and Spirit in-and-for-itself. Rauno Huttunen -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: 1. huhtikuuta 2014 12:59 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM? (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Paul, And another piece you might be interested in: Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the exact quote somewhere if you're interested. The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of this argument...). I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about the Mead/Vygotsky link. -greg On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > Vygotsky". > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > mike > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > symbolic interactionism with > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Apr 1 08:25:10 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:25:10 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Paul At the risk of correcting your egg-blowing technique, Gramps, here is a quote which seems relevant to this problem to me: A problem of the greatest importance is raised in the passage just quoted, that of human consciousness. The crucial statement is: "It is not consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness." Marx gave a fuller statement with regard to the problem of consciousness in German Ideology: "The fact is, therefore, that definite individuals who are productively active in a definite way enter into these definite social and political relations. Empirical observations must in each separate instance bring out empirically, and without any mystification and speculation, the connection of the social and political structure with production. The social structure and the State are continually evolving out of the life-process of definite individuals, but of individuals, not as they may appear in their own or other people's imagination, but as they really are; i.e., as they are effective, produce materially, and are active under definite material limits, presuppositions and conditions independent of their will. "The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct afflux from their material behavior. The same applies to mental production as expressed in the language of the politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics of a people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc. -real, active men, as they are conditioned by the definite development of their productive forces and of the intercourse corresponding to these, up to its furthest forms. Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious existence, and the existence of men in their actual lifeprocess. If in all ideology men and their circumstances appear upside down as in a camera obscura,[*] this phenomenon arises just as much from their historical lifeprocess as the inversion of objects on the retina does from their physical life-process." [18] In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings of man's actions are unconscious to him. According to Freud, they are rooted in man's libidinal strivings; according to Marx, they are rooted in the whole social organization of man which directs his consciousness in certain directions. and blocks him from being aware of certain facts and experiences. [19] Its is important to recognize that this theory does not pretend that ideas or ideals are not real or not potent. Marx speaks of awareness, not of ideals. It is exactly the blindness of man's conscious thought which prevents him from being aware of his true human needs, and of ideals which are rooted in them. Only if false consciousness is transformed into true consciousness, that is, only if we are aware of reality, rather than distorting it by rationalizations and fictions, can we also become aware of our real and true human needs. It should also be noted that for Marx science itself and all powers inherent in man are part of the productive forces which interact with the forces of nature. Even as far as the influence of ideas on human evolution is concerned, Marx was by no means as oblivious to their power as the popular interpretation of his work makes it appear. His argument was not against ideas, but against ideas which were not rooted in the human and social reality, which were not, to use Hegel's term, "a real possibility." Most of all, he never forgot that not only do circumstances make man; man also makes circumstances. The following passage should make clear how erroneous it is to interpret Marx as if he, like many philosophers of the enlightenment and many sociologists of today, gave man a passive role in the historical process, as if he saw him as the passive object of circumstances: "The materialistic doctrine [in contrast to Marx's view] concerning the changing of circumstances and education forgets that circumstances are changed by men and that the educator himself must be educated. This doctrine has therefore to divide society into two parts, one of which is superior to society [as a whole]. "The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-changing can only be comprehended and rationally understood as revolutionary practice." Surely, while I know that my daughter and my son were clearly very different individuals when I saw them each (1970 and 19732) just several minutes after birth, their 'being' is/was shaped by us, and the rest of the totality of their society. At this moment, I reject the idea of an innate, immanent 'individual consciousness' of each human, as an idealist chimera, to be blunt. But this may be an attitude shaped by an over-reliance on those very received wisdoms I am attempting to reject - argh! Yours contradictorily Tom (Richardson) Middlesbrough UK On 1 April 2014 10:58, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I have > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics says > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: > [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > > Vygotsky". > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 08:27:04 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 08:27:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" and control yourself "from the outside" ?? Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive person to think with. See below. mike mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as being > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than you > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory taken > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. I'm > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I have > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics says > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > > Vygotsky". > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BurkeDramatism.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1555694 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140401/3120520b/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 08:37:48 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:37:48 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> <814BC7DD-C24F-4702-A753-71B5B06C4B8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: My question: On the scale of the "local" as well as the "global", what will it take to for us humans to recognize our mutuality of being? i.e., to see ourselves in others and others in ourselves? But then again, 10 years is far too short a timeline... -greg On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote: > Good luck in your inquiry, Laure. Here is my question: If an ounce of > prevention is worth a pound of cure, what changes in human development > would be required to implement practices that privilege prevention instead > of repair? > > David -- > > What is the incompatibility you see between schooling and cultural > learning? > My own take on this issue remains what it was a while back, as laid out in > the attached. > > So far as I can tell, the default answer to your question widely accepted > among both developmentalists and the public is the intense preparation for > schooling beginning as early as possible in children's lives is the only > way to go. More, not less, emphasis on school-as-we-know-it -- and lots > more of it. > > Paradoxical, isn't it? > mike > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:54 AM, David Preiss > wrote: > > > One question that matters to me relates to the impact of schooling on > > human development widely understood. I growingly think that schooling is > > not compatible with the natural processes of cultural learning, as > > described by Tomasello. The question that arises is whether we can come > up > > with scalable and inclusive alternatives that are informed by what we now > > know are species compatible ways of instructing and learning. > > David > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:02 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: > > > > > I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? > > > Cheers > > > LK > > > > > > > > > > > > 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > > > > > >> Laure, > > >> I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" > > >> questions. > > >> Andy > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Laure Kloetzer wrote: > > >> > > >>> Dear colleagues, > > >>> > > >>> As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I > plan > > to > > >>> work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the value > of > > >>> Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a > > related > > >>> question. Would you accept to share with the community here your > > answers > > >>> to > > >>> the following question: > > >>> > > >>> Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would > > dream to > > >>> get an answer in the next ten years ? > > >>> > > >>> I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community > > (cognition > > >>> and development). > > >>> > > >>> The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of > > things > > >>> that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and > (c) > > to > > >>> compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of > > ignorance, > > >>> (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and > > world. > > >>> I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to > an > > >>> accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from > > engaging > > >>> truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics > > (which is > > >>> also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be > > crushed > > >>> under them). > > >>> > > >>> What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological > > >>> questions be ? > > >>> Thanks for your help, > > >>> Best, > > >>> LK > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 08:58:26 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 11:58:26 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: Tom I agree with every bit of your reading of marx. ?However, there is absolutely something missing. ?That something is also grounded in material existence and it sparks life, whether at the atomic or subatomic level I do not know as of yet. As zora neale hurston highlighted in her ethnographic fieldwork in haiti, she came across that something, called ti bon ange, in haitian vodou. ?It is the sui generis self that can be captured and manipulated in haitian vodou. ? Doing my ethnographic fieldwork in haiti. ?I watched ceremonies in which immediately after someone's death, that aspect of their consciousness is captured and stored in a bottle to be manipulated by the houngan, vodou priest, for favor. ? I witnessed in ceremonies the priest gathering information about future and past life experiences of guests at the ceremony from the genie in the bottle.., tongue-in-cheek... As a researcher trained in western social science...I am seeking to explore this phenomenon which is not seen anywhere in marx, but the practitioners of vodou believe in this sui generis consciousness that precedes the personality and the consciousness of socialization. ?It is not the soul in the western tradition because vodou is a materialist religion. ?Max beauvior the ati of vodou argues that it is the energy of the universe...what physicists call subatomic particles..which constitutes all of us that is manipulated....in other words, we are constituted as subatomic particles, which is individuated (leibniz's monads come to mind here), to spark life and form individuals at the atomic level...it is that subatomic level that is socialized. ?The question for me is that is that conception ideological or ontological...phenomena or noeumena? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Tom Richardson Date:04/01/2014 11:25 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Hello Paul At the risk of correcting your egg-blowing technique, Gramps, here is a quote which seems relevant to this problem to me: A problem of the greatest importance is raised in the passage just quoted, that of human consciousness. The crucial statement is: "It is not consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness." Marx gave a fuller statement with regard to the problem of consciousness in German Ideology: "The fact is, therefore, that definite individuals who are productively active in a definite way enter into these definite social and political relations. Empirical observations must in each separate instance bring out empirically, and without any mystification and speculation, the connection of the social and political structure with production. The social structure and the State are continually evolving out of the life-process of definite individuals, but of individuals, not as they may appear in their own or other people's imagination, but as they really are; i.e., as they are effective, produce materially, and are active under definite material limits, presuppositions and conditions independent of their will. "The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct afflux from their material behavior. The same applies to mental production as expressed in the language of the politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics of a people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc. -real, active men, as they are conditioned by the definite development of their productive forces and of the intercourse corresponding to these, up to its furthest forms. Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious existence, and the existence of men in their actual lifeprocess. If in all ideology men and their circumstances appear upside down as in a camera obscura,[*] this phenomenon arises just as much from their historical lifeprocess as the inversion of objects on the retina does from their physical life-process." [18] In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings of man's actions are unconscious to him. According to Freud, they are rooted in man's libidinal strivings; according to Marx, they are rooted in the whole social organization of man which directs his consciousness in certain directions. and blocks him from being aware of certain facts and experiences. [19] Its is important to recognize that this theory does not pretend that ideas or ideals are not real or not potent. Marx speaks of awareness, not of ideals. It is exactly the blindness of man's conscious thought which prevents him from being aware of his true human needs, and of ideals which are rooted in them. Only if false consciousness is transformed into true consciousness, that is, only if we are aware of reality, rather than distorting it by rationalizations and fictions, can we also become aware of our real and true human needs. It should also be noted that for Marx science itself and all powers inherent in man are part of the productive forces which interact with the forces of nature. Even as far as the influence of ideas on human evolution is concerned, Marx was by no means as oblivious to their power as the popular interpretation of his work makes it appear. His argument was not against ideas, but against ideas which were not rooted in the human and social reality, which were not, to use Hegel's term, "a real possibility." Most of all, he never forgot that not only do circumstances make man; man also makes circumstances. The following passage should make clear how erroneous it is to interpret Marx as if he, like many philosophers of the enlightenment and many sociologists of today, gave man a passive role in the historical process, as if he saw him as the passive object of circumstances: "The materialistic doctrine [in contrast to Marx's view] concerning the changing of circumstances and education forgets that circumstances are changed by men and that the educator himself must be educated. This doctrine has therefore to divide society into two parts, one of which is superior to society [as a whole]. "The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-changing can only be comprehended and rationally understood as revolutionary practice." Surely, while I know that my daughter and my son were clearly very different individuals when I saw them each (1970 and 19732) just several minutes after birth, their 'being' is/was shaped by us, and the rest of the totality of their society. At this moment, I reject the idea of an innate, immanent 'individual consciousness' of each human, as an idealist chimera, to be blunt. But this may be an attitude shaped by an over-reliance on those very received wisdoms I am attempting to reject - argh! Yours contradictorily Tom (Richardson) Middlesbrough UK On 1 April 2014 10:58, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the > i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM >? (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: > [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > > Vygotsky". > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 09:04:47 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:04:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: Greg,? The answer to your question is that we have to stop privileging our humanity above all other forms of existence...including the planet we have been so privileged to inhabit. ?The self/object distinction, which heidegger attributes to the stance, present-at-hand, is the biggest perversity found in the western tradition. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: Tom Richardson Date:04/01/2014 11:25 AM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Hello Paul At the risk of correcting your egg-blowing technique, Gramps, here is a quote which seems relevant to this problem to me: A problem of the greatest importance is raised in the passage just quoted, that of human consciousness. The crucial statement is: "It is not consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness." Marx gave a fuller statement with regard to the problem of consciousness in German Ideology: "The fact is, therefore, that definite individuals who are productively active in a definite way enter into these definite social and political relations. Empirical observations must in each separate instance bring out empirically, and without any mystification and speculation, the connection of the social and political structure with production. The social structure and the State are continually evolving out of the life-process of definite individuals, but of individuals, not as they may appear in their own or other people's imagination, but as they really are; i.e., as they are effective, produce materially, and are active under definite material limits, presuppositions and conditions independent of their will. "The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct afflux from their material behavior. The same applies to mental production as expressed in the language of the politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics of a people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc. -real, active men, as they are conditioned by the definite development of their productive forces and of the intercourse corresponding to these, up to its furthest forms. Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious existence, and the existence of men in their actual lifeprocess. If in all ideology men and their circumstances appear upside down as in a camera obscura,[*] this phenomenon arises just as much from their historical lifeprocess as the inversion of objects on the retina does from their physical life-process." [18] In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings of man's actions are unconscious to him. According to Freud, they are rooted in man's libidinal strivings; according to Marx, they are rooted in the whole social organization of man which directs his consciousness in certain directions. and blocks him from being aware of certain facts and experiences. [19] Its is important to recognize that this theory does not pretend that ideas or ideals are not real or not potent. Marx speaks of awareness, not of ideals. It is exactly the blindness of man's conscious thought which prevents him from being aware of his true human needs, and of ideals which are rooted in them. Only if false consciousness is transformed into true consciousness, that is, only if we are aware of reality, rather than distorting it by rationalizations and fictions, can we also become aware of our real and true human needs. It should also be noted that for Marx science itself and all powers inherent in man are part of the productive forces which interact with the forces of nature. Even as far as the influence of ideas on human evolution is concerned, Marx was by no means as oblivious to their power as the popular interpretation of his work makes it appear. His argument was not against ideas, but against ideas which were not rooted in the human and social reality, which were not, to use Hegel's term, "a real possibility." Most of all, he never forgot that not only do circumstances make man; man also makes circumstances. The following passage should make clear how erroneous it is to interpret Marx as if he, like many philosophers of the enlightenment and many sociologists of today, gave man a passive role in the historical process, as if he saw him as the passive object of circumstances: "The materialistic doctrine [in contrast to Marx's view] concerning the changing of circumstances and education forgets that circumstances are changed by men and that the educator himself must be educated. This doctrine has therefore to divide society into two parts, one of which is superior to society [as a whole]. "The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-changing can only be comprehended and rationally understood as revolutionary practice." Surely, while I know that my daughter and my son were clearly very different individuals when I saw them each (1970 and 19732) just several minutes after birth, their 'being' is/was shaped by us, and the rest of the totality of their society. At this moment, I reject the idea of an innate, immanent 'individual consciousness' of each human, as an idealist chimera, to be blunt. But this may be an attitude shaped by an over-reliance on those very received wisdoms I am attempting to reject - argh! Yours contradictorily Tom (Richardson) Middlesbrough UK On 1 April 2014 10:58, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the > i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM >? (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: > [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > > Vygotsky". > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From tom.richardson3@googlemail.com Tue Apr 1 09:09:43 2014 From: tom.richardson3@googlemail.com (Tom Richardson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:09:43 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for your considered and considerate reply Paul, great to be in touch again. You can predict my reply. But although I resolutely stick with my operational Earth-bound materialism, at a cosmic level given the nature of the Universe (known), I acknowledge that my total rejection of the vodou 'reality' is somewhat unverifiable (au Popper) Bon jour, mon ami Tom On 1 April 2014 16:58, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Tom I agree with every bit of your reading of marx. However, there is > absolutely something missing. That something is also grounded in material > existence and it sparks life, whether at the atomic or subatomic level I do > not know as of yet. As zora neale hurston highlighted in her ethnographic > fieldwork in haiti, she came across that something, called ti bon ange, in > haitian vodou. It is the sui generis self that can be captured and > manipulated in haitian vodou. Doing my ethnographic fieldwork in haiti. > I watched ceremonies in which immediately after someone's death, that > aspect of their consciousness is captured and stored in a bottle to be > manipulated by the houngan, vodou priest, for favor. I witnessed in > ceremonies the priest gathering information about future and past life > experiences of guests at the ceremony from the genie in the bottle.., > tongue-in-cheek... > > As a researcher trained in western social science...I am seeking to > explore this phenomenon which is not seen anywhere in marx, but the > practitioners of vodou believe in this sui generis consciousness that > precedes the personality and the consciousness of socialization. It is not > the soul in the western tradition because vodou is a materialist religion. > Max beauvior the ati of vodou argues that it is the energy of the > universe...what physicists call subatomic particles..which constitutes all > of us that is manipulated....in other words, we are constituted as > subatomic particles, which is individuated (leibniz's monads come to mind > here), to spark life and form individuals at the atomic level...it is that > subatomic level that is socialized. The question for me is that is that > conception ideological or ontological...phenomena or noeumena? > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Tom Richardson > Date:04/01/2014 11:25 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Hello Paul > At the risk of correcting your egg-blowing technique, Gramps, here is a > quote which seems relevant to this problem to me: > > A problem of the greatest importance is raised in the passage just quoted, > that of human consciousness. The crucial statement is: "It is not > consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, > their social being that determines their consciousness." Marx gave a fuller > statement with regard to the problem of consciousness in German Ideology: > > "The fact is, therefore, that definite individuals who are productively > active in a definite way enter into these definite social and political > relations. Empirical observations must in each separate instance bring out > empirically, and without any mystification and speculation, the connection > of the social and political structure with production. The social structure > and the State are continually evolving out of the life-process of definite > individuals, but of individuals, not as they may appear in their own or > other people's imagination, but as they really are; i.e., as they are > effective, produce materially, and are active under definite material > limits, presuppositions and conditions independent of their will. > > "The production of ideas, of conceptions, of consciousness, is at first > directly interwoven with the material activity and the material intercourse > of men, the language of real life. Conceiving, thinking, the mental > intercourse of men, appear at this stage as the direct afflux from their > material behavior. The same applies to mental production as expressed in > the language of the politics, laws, morality, religion, metaphysics of a > people. Men are the producers of their conceptions, ideas, etc. -real, > active men, as they are conditioned by the definite development of their > productive forces and of the intercourse corresponding to these, up to its > furthest forms. Consciousness can never be anything else than conscious > existence, and the existence of men in their actual lifeprocess. If in all > ideology men and their circumstances appear upside down as in a camera > obscura,[*]< > https://www.marxists.org/archive/fromm/works/1961/man/notes.htm#n*> > this > phenomenon arises just as much from their historical lifeprocess as the > inversion of objects on the retina does from their physical life-process." > [18] > > In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later > Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings > of man's actions are unconscious to him. According to Freud, they are > rooted in man's libidinal strivings; according to Marx, they are rooted in > the whole social organization of man which directs his consciousness in > certain directions. and blocks him from being aware of certain facts and > experiences. [19]< > https://www.marxists.org/archive/fromm/works/1961/man/notes.htm#n19> > > Its is important to recognize that this theory does not pretend that ideas > or ideals are not real or not potent. Marx speaks of awareness, not of > ideals. It is exactly the blindness of man's conscious thought which > prevents him from being aware of his true human needs, and of ideals which > are rooted in them. Only if false consciousness is transformed into true > consciousness, that is, only if we are aware of reality, rather than > distorting it by rationalizations and fictions, can we also become aware of > our real and true human needs. > > It should also be noted that for Marx science itself and all powers > inherent in man are part of the productive forces which interact with the > forces of nature. Even as far as the influence of ideas on human evolution > is concerned, Marx was by no means as oblivious to their power as the > popular interpretation of his work makes it appear. His argument was not > against ideas, but against ideas which were not rooted in the human and > social reality, which were not, to use Hegel's term, "a real possibility." > Most of all, he never forgot that not only do circumstances make man; man > also makes circumstances. The following passage should make clear how > erroneous it is to interpret Marx as if he, like many philosophers of the > enlightenment and many sociologists of today, gave man a passive role in > the historical process, as if he saw him as the passive object of > circumstances: > > "The materialistic doctrine [in contrast to Marx's view] concerning the > changing of circumstances and education forgets that circumstances are > changed by men and that the educator himself must be educated. This > doctrine has therefore to divide society into two parts, one of which is > superior to society [as a whole]. > > "The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or > self-changing can only be comprehended and rationally understood as > revolutionary practice." > > > Surely, while I know that my daughter and my son were clearly very > different individuals when I saw them each (1970 and 19732) just several > minutes after birth, their 'being' is/was shaped by us, and the rest of the > totality of their society. At this moment, I reject the idea of an innate, > immanent 'individual consciousness' of each human, as an idealist chimera, > to be blunt. But this may be an attitude shaped by an over-reliance on > those very received wisdoms I am attempting to reject - argh! > > Yours contradictorily > > Tom (Richardson) > > Middlesbrough UK > > > On 1 April 2014 10:58, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > wrote: > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I > have > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics > says > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as > the > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > > Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: > > [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
Paul, > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye > to > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. > Mead > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have > the > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but > it > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > > this argument...). > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion > to > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > mead's > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Tue Apr 1 09:31:35 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:31:35 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B2CD@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Mike, I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I think of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways that individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are they really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been controlling our behavioral trajectory. I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) or perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I am having a hard time processing. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" and control yourself "from the outside" ?? Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive person to think with. See below. mike mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as being > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than you > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory taken > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. I'm > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I have > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics says > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > > Vygotsky". > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Tue Apr 1 09:28:36 2014 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:28:36 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> <001801cf4d49$4d07c560$e7175020$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: Dear Collaborators, Before this dialogue thread slows I'd like to send a warm "Thank You!" to Donna for spending her time with us. It is so precious to be able to talk with researchers/authors about their work, the thinking behind their work, what we as readers see and how that does or doesn't fit with the author's perspective. Thanks to all contributors for the time and ideas shared.!Best to all - jen On 2014-03-31, at 9:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > With respect to collusion. I was thinking of McDermott and Tylbor (below). > See reference to collusion in the attached paper. > mike > ----------------- > Necessity of Collusion (McDermott and Tylbor, 1995) *Posted* on 2008.08.29 > at 11:09 > *Tags:* collusion , > discourse, > mcdermott , > tylbor Collusion > is based on the premise of "indefiniteness and precision". Individuals have > a repertoire of unspecified knowledge in order to understand each other. > Additionally, individuals also utilise their knowledge of local context in > order to shape the previous unspecified knowledge into "mutually > perceptible and reflexively consequential chunks" (1995:200). > > Collusion is also influenced by the institutional constraints that affect > the ways in which we collude with each other. Take for instance, the > generalised gender configurations available in a culture or the "specific > institutions built around informational entanglements." (1995:221) > > > 3 ways of appreciating language > > 1. Propositional vs. illocutionary analysis talk. Literal talk is > important whereas the latter will attempt to extrapolate the "actual > conditions of the social actors so that their intentions could protrude > without anyone having very literally put them into words" (224) > 2. Collusional approach is interested in "ongoing social scenes into > which people walk and talk their lives together" (224). > > Notes: Collusion and power would therefore be useful in an analysis of > power within a given context, specifically classroom setting. What is said > or what is not said in a given classroom can be useful in understanding how > activity structures are carried out. Role play for instance has the > potential of being 'silly' but it is unsaid, and participants take part in > it, with the agreement that it is indeed silly and a one-off thing. People > as a general rule of thumb, do not actively 'play' a role, it is not > overtly stated, in fact hidden or accepted as a norm. > > Students were well aware of the fact that this is an exception, not the > norm, a suspension of 'real' classroom activities or the Hawthorne effect > can possibly explain the situation. What does this mean for the educational > structure? Participants relish the ability to act out of the norm, does > this mean the effect is a one-off scenario? Or is agency discovered and > varied methods of learning emphasised? Is the subject still subjected to > assessment despite being able to learn effectively? Or the knowledge that > content is flexible and ever-changing? How have practices change beyond > that of this implementation? IRE - Initiation, Response, Evaluation also > took place. Push backs - moving the mantle of responsibility to the > students. > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 6:25 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < > vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > >> This conversation is going too fast for me, and besides, I think it has >> shifted anyway, but... I want to grab (position) a comment that connects >> to >> much we talk about here: the roots of collusion and collaboration. >> However >> slimy and sneaky it has been passed down to us, the root of collusion is >> still from Cum (with) and ludus (play, fun) while collaboration is from cum >> (with) and labor (work). We set up a polar dialectics to make us the >> "protagonists" while the others are "antagonists" (words from drama!). We >> have to make distinctions because that is what minds, brains in bodies do. >> If we want to develop a concept we can get our teeth into, we have to say >> what it is like and what it isn't like, to begin with. Think of Dietrich >> Bonhoeffer as colluding while the Party was collaborating. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:22 PM >> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory >> >> Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word >> collaboration, Andy? >> mike >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >>> Donna, >>> I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories >> here. >>> Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are >>> positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's >>> cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite >>> enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are >>> formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it >>> seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of >>> concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active >>> instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which >>> necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, and >> "different points of view." >>> >>> Andy >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >>> >>>> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has >>>> taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline >>>> infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual >>>> level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or >>>> make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully >>>> familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research >>>> and "theory of self" here would be a useful. >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >>> dkotsopoulos> >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >>>> intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as >>>> recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is >> strictly prohibited. >>>>>>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, >>>> Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) >>>> If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask >>>> "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the >>>> artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has >>>> acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, >>>> that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these >>>> "roles" (?) are meaningful. >>>> In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a >>>> great extent before the collaborators meet. >>>> Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of >>>> collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the classroom. >>>> So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which >>>> pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. >>>> Andy >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --- >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>> Lynda, >>>>> Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the >>>> center >>>>> of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that >>>>> collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) >>>>> inevitable. On >>>> the >>>>> other hand you point out that we have to teach children to >>>>> collaborate, >>>> and >>>>> collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional >>>>> education (which is, by implication, not collaborative). >>>>> >>>>> I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is >>>> collaborative >>>>> - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a >>>>> "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in >>>>> traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration >>>>> for everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna >>>>> describes >>>> appear >>>>> not to be good for everyone. >>>>> >>>>> Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which >> "collaboration" >>>> is >>>>> everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which >>>>> it >>>> must >>>>> be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative >>>>> classrooms". >>>>> >>>>> That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks >>>> discussing >>>>> on the listserve. >>>>> >>>>> And it seems to me like there is some really important work still >>>>> to be done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of >>>> "collaboration" >>>>> and notions of "classroom collaboration". >>>>> >>>>> For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places >> (e.g. >>>>> "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different >>>>> configurations of "collaboration" can be differently productive for >> different children. >>>> And >>>>> also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom >>>>> collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! >>>>> >>>>> So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative >>>> classrooms" >>>>> might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many >>>> problems >>>>> that confront us without some form of "collaboration." >>>>> >>>>> That's just my two nickels worth. >>>>> (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). >>>>> -greg >>>>> >>>>> "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which >>>>> I >>>> can >>>>> seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity >>>>> is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material >>>>> of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the >>>>> language in >>>> which >>>>> the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and >>>> therefore >>>>> that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with >>>>> the consciousness of myself as a social being." >>>>> Marx, 1844, p. 298 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Greg! >>>>>> >>>>>> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm >>>> dropping in >>>>>> to make >>>>>> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. >>>>>> >>>>>> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the >>>>>> conversation around collaboration. Although his reason may be >>>>>> grounded in a Marxist angle, equally important is a biological >>>>>> one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we >>>> come >>>>>> with the >>>>>> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally >>>>>> collaborative process. So, each and every time peers, teachers >>>>>> and students, etc. come to some >>>> relatively >>>>>> shared >>>>>> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and >>>>>> so forth, they are engaged in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than >>>>>> one person/child taking part in >>>> an >>>>>> event/activity. And, >>>>>> because events/activities come into existence through discourse >>>> practices >>>>>> and are influenced >>>>>> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the >>>>>> larger culture), to understand collaboration from participants' >>>>>> point of view requires an >>>> understanding >>>>>> of the situation >>>>>> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, >>>> collaboration >>>>>> in educational settings >>>>>> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in >>>>>> contrast >>>> to >>>>>> traditional educational >>>>>> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental process, >>>> just >>>>>> as infants learn how over >>>>>> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at >>>> this >>>>>> moment? And, "how >>>>>> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other >>>> contextual >>>>>> questions that can >>>>>> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration >>>>>> be configured. For example, how do children come to value (or see >>>>>> as morally right) helping/coordinating behaviors? Under what >>>>>> circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is >>>>>> this related to the social norms and expectations? I have found >>>>>> that the context shapes what collaboration means and as a >>>>>> consequence influences the social processes that enable children >>>>>> to cooperate (or not) with each other. >>>>>> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a >>>>>> positioning process---one that is also influenced by the >>>>>> meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in learning >>>>>> activity with others. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out >>>>>> "collaboration"---I hope my musings on the topic contributes a >>>>>> bit. In any case, Donna's paper has >>>> certainly >>>>>> pushed my thinking-- >>>>>> >>>>>> An appreciative lurker! >>>>>> -lynda >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What KINDS of >>>>>> >>>>>>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be >>>> configured. >>>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a >>>>>>> definitional >>>>>>> >>>>>> problem >>>>>> >>>>>>> here: What is collaboration? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be >>>> human is >>>>>>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative >>>>>>> all >>>> the >>>>>>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all >>>>>>> classrooms >>>> are >>>>>>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers >> think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing >>>>>>> about education. Ed researchers start at square one that says >>>>>>> that students >>>>>>> >>>>>> begin >>>>>> >>>>>>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that >>>>>>> one >>>> must >>>>>>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that >>>> matter). >>>>>>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as >>>> exceptions to >>>>>>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. >>>>>>> And >>>> in >>>>>>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very >>>>>>> >>>>>> particular >>>>>> >>>>>>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this >>>>>>> is >>>> true >>>>>>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that >>>>>>> follows >>>>>>> >>>>>> this >>>>>> >>>>>>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, >>>>>>> this involves an active and conscious decision to do something >>>>>>> different >>>> from >>>>>>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them >>>>>>> work together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of >> interaction. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Some >>>>>> >>>>>>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's >> points). >>>>>>> >>>>>> But >>>>>> >>>>>>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is >>>>>>> something unnatural that one must "make" happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. >>>>>>> And in >>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative >>>>>>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in >>>>>>> education is >>>>>>> >>>>>> sold >>>>>> >>>>>>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of >>>>>>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to >>>>>>> pursue >>>> the >>>>>>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this >>>>>>> discourse >>>>>>> >>>>>> about >>>>>> >>>>>>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental >>>>>>> >>>>>> assumptions >>>>>> >>>>>>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative >>>> classrooms" >>>>>>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, >>>>>>> isn't collaboration always already there in the classroom - in >>>>>>> the class >>>>>>> >>>>>> clown's >>>>>> >>>>>>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring >>>>>>> against >>>> the >>>>>>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or >>>>>>> the principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find >>>>>>> that even Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive >>>>>>> collaborations in this classroom! It's just that they won't be >>>>>>> happening during those times >>>> that >>>>>>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to >>>>>>> >>>>>> collaborate >>>>>> >>>>>>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS >>>>>>> of collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be >>>> configured. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Collaboration anyone? >>>>>>> -greg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this >>>>>>>> >>>>>> invitation. I >>>>>> >>>>>>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my >>>>>>>> thinking >>>>>>>> >>>>>> in a >>>>>> >>>>>>>> number of ways. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best >>>> interest >>>>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them >>>>>>>> collaborate, may >>>>>>>> >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That >>>>>>>> student >>>>>>>> >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in >>>>>>>> such instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual >>>>>>>> well being/advancement, for example. That being said, any >>>>>>>> collaborative >>>>>>>> >>>>>> effort >>>>>> >>>>>>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very >>>>>>>> essence of >>>>>>>> >>>>>> human >>>>>> >>>>>>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>>>> must >>>>>> >>>>>>>> be weighted. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if >>>> given >>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> >>>>>> surmise >>>>>> >>>>>>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" >>>>>>>> >>>>>> students, >>>>>> >>>>>>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would >>>>>>>> have compromised her intellectual outcomes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her >>>>>>>> standards, >>>> and >>>>>>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another >>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>> >>>>>> case. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of >>>>>>>> the >>>> group >>>>>>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She >>>>>>>> would compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her >> end. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the >>>>>>>> work >>>> for >>>>>>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the >> context. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> d. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >>>>>>>> Associate Professor >>>>>>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of >>>>>>>> Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University >>>>>>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >>>>>>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >>>>>>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is >>>> intended >>>>>>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as >>>> recipient(s). >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Any >>>>>> >>>>>>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly >>>> prohibited. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message >>>>>>>>>>> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blunden wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and >>>>>>>> energy >>>> to >>>>>>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense >>>>>>>> to >>>> say >>>>>>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their >>>>>>>> best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this >>>>>>>> question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in >>>>>>>> the best interest of >>>> this >>>>>>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of >>>>>>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed >>>> mechanisms >>>>>>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be >>>> damaging >>>>>>>> to them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ------------ >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is >>>>>>>>> an instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more >>>>>>>>> realistic expectations of school based collaborations are in >>>>>>>>> order. There is compromise with every human relationship and >>>>>>>>> the same is true in collaborative activities with children and >> schools. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for >>>>>>>>> these >>>> types >>>>>>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a >>>>>>>>> school setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to >>>>>>>>> include the possibility of compromise, an open lens attending >>>>>>>>> to productive silencing and what I had referred to in earlier >>>>>>>>> drafts as productive privileging (Will's case in the article), >>>>>>>>> a critical evaluation of learning and the kinds of learning that >> has taken place. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology >>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Tue Apr 1 09:53:44 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:53:44 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Message-ID: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> Michael, Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
Mike, I wonder about the issue of tools.? If something is use unconsciously, without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool.? I think of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways that individuals are not even aware of.? It is sort of like, when riding a bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward.? But what about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is happening to us.? Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves?? Are they really tools?? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been controlling our behavioral trajectory. I don't know.? I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) or perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I am having a hard time processing. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" and control yourself "from the outside" ?? Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. Vis a vis symbolic interactionism.? Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive person to think with. See below. mike mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014? 9:08 AM >? (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as being > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than you > might think.? Have you looked at labeling theory?? Also a trajectory taken > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day.? I'm > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the > i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended Mind, > Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
Paul, > And another piece you might be interested in: > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye to > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. Mead > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > this argument...). > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > -greg > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to > > Vygotsky". > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > mike > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert mead's > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Tue Apr 1 10:38:17 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 11:38:17 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Conference - Critical Philosophy of Race: Here and Now, 5-6 June 2014 In-Reply-To: References: <43952478D8003547950FACD157EDE0DB677C13A6@EX6.adf.bham.ac.uk> <531ED738.2030505@qmul.ac.uk> <5FDE9BD9-2AC4-49F8-BC49-CD69A200375E@live.ucl.ac.uk>, <144b08ab808.27b7.50ffa72c4c62c5582d3e5146ff6140f6@qmul.ac.uk> , <532DAFE8.1070401@qmul.ac.uk>, <92726593-53B6-47D8-A7B3-C6D481B8951D@live.ucl.ac.uk>, Message-ID: in response to Paul's wondering about philosophy and racism, this may be of interest. as well, is the site address below "Philosophy is dead white, and dead wrong." Huw, perhaps you'll be able to attend this conference. enjoy, everyone! phillip Institute of Philosophy and Institute of Commonwealth Studies present Critical Philosophy of Race: Here and Now in association with UCL Thurs 5 - Fri 6 June, 2014 (ends 2pm on Friday) Senate Room, Senate House, Malet Street, WC1 Conference updates: http://t.co/r3avM8LH82 Registration On-line: http://goo.gl/HdQyom Since the publication, in 1992, of Professor Kwame Anthony Appiah's In my father's house: Africa in the Philosophy of Culture, the new discipline of the Critical Philosophy of Race has flourished among anglophone analytic philosophers. Yet, Critical Philosophers of Race have tended to confine themselves to an analysis of racial problems that arise in the politics, and against the historical background, of anglophone North America. This parochial focus has given the false impression that the Critical Philosophy of Race is irrelevant outside of the US and Canada. For this reason, in this, the first of three annual international conferences on the Critical Philosophy of Race, we will challenge this false impression, by showcasing work that demonstrates the relevance of the Critical Philosophy of Race (a) to the British Isles. Future conferences will showcase work that demonstrates the relevance of the Critical Philosophy of Race (b) to the European Union and (c) to the wider world outside of anglophone North America. The aim of these three conferences is, successively, to globalise the Critical Philosophy of Race. Confirmed speakers: Dr Robert Bernasconi (Prof of Philosophy & African American Studies, Penn State) Dr Meena Dhanda (Reader in Philosophy and Cultural Politics, Wolverhampton) Dr Brian Klug (Senior Research Fellow and Tutor in Philosophy, Oxford) Dr Gabriella Beckles-Raymond (philosopher and educational administrator) Dr Albert Atkin (Senior Lecturer in Philosophy, Macquarie) Dr Nicholas Kwesi Tsri (Postdoctoral Fellow in Social Justice, UCD) Dr Annabelle Lever (Associate Professor of Normative Political Theory, Geneva) Dr Nathaniel Adam Tobias Coleman (Fellow, ICwS & Research Associate in Philosophy, UCL) To register for the conference, please log in to this site http://goo.gl/HdQyom and identify your registration category. Fees include all tea and coffee breaks. Early registration is strongly advised. Registration Category Early Bird Rate (ends 9 May) Current UK Philosophy Faculty and Students & IP members 15.00 Academic & Student (not included above) 30.00 Standard 50.00 Programme Organiser: Dr Nathaniel Adam Tobias Coleman Enquiries to philosophy@sas.ac.uk and uctynat@ucl.ac.uk. Please put "Philosophy of Race Conference Enquiry" in subject field. This event is brought to you by the Institute of Philosophy and Institute of Commonwealth Studies at the School of Advanced Study in collaboration with UCL. We also acknowledge the generous support of the Aristotelian Society, Mind Association, Analysis Trust, UCL Department of Philosophy, UCL Joint Faculty Institute of Graduate Studies, and UCL Race Equality Steering Group. The full programme will be made available shortly. Please check back for updates. Please tweet: @IP_SAS & @ICwS_SAS & UCL @uclnews present Critical Philosophy of Race: Here and Now, 5-6 Jun 2014 Registration OPEN http://t.co/r3avM8LH82 Ends. Nathaniel Nathaniel Adam Tobias Coleman, PhD Research Associate in the Philosophy of 'Race' Department of Philosophy, University College London Gower Street, London WC1E 6BT, www.ucl.ac.uk/philosophy ___ Emerging Scholar at the Runnymede Trust http://www.runnymedetrust.org.gridhosted.co.uk/projects-and-publications/academic-forum.html Global Outreach for APA Committee on the Status of Black Philosophers http://www.apaonline.org/members/group.aspx?id=110427 Philosophy is dead white?and dead wrong http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/comment/opinion/philosophy-is-deadwhite-and-dead-wrong/2012122.article ___ No Reparation, Without Preparation! https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/research/grants/2013-14/reparation Slaveries old and new: The meaning of freedom http://www.britac.ac.uk/events/2014/Slaveries_Old_and_New_The_Meaning_of_Freedom.cfm Europe enslaved Africans in the Caribbean: A wrong to remember and to repair http://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/events/2013-14/if-ucl-memory ___ Critical Philosophy of Race: Here and Now http://philosophy.sas.ac.uk/philosophy-of-race-5-6-jun-2014 Joint Faculty Institute of Graduate Studies: Friday Forum on 'Race' http://www.ucl.ac.uk/jfigs/figs-friday-forum/race Why isn't my professor black? http://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/events/2014/03/21/whyisntmyprofessorblack/ _______________________________________________ Qstudy-l mailing list Qstudy-l@mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/qstudy-l From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 11:41:39 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 19:41:39 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Conference - Critical Philosophy of Race: Here and Now, 5-6 June 2014 In-Reply-To: References: <43952478D8003547950FACD157EDE0DB677C13A6@EX6.adf.bham.ac.uk> <531ED738.2030505@qmul.ac.uk> <5FDE9BD9-2AC4-49F8-BC49-CD69A200375E@live.ucl.ac.uk> <144b08ab808.27b7.50ffa72c4c62c5582d3e5146ff6140f6@qmul.ac.uk> <532DAFE8.1070401@qmul.ac.uk> <92726593-53B6-47D8-A7B3-C6D481B8951D@live.ucl.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 1 April 2014 18:38, White, Phillip wrote: > > > in response to Paul's wondering about philosophy and racism, this may be > of interest. > as well, is the site address below "Philosophy is dead white, and dead > wrong." > There's an unfortunate connotation in the pun. I'm not sure I'd have used that title... "Mr Wong" having difficulty with item 2: http://blog.clarity-speech.com/2013/08/the-top-10-pronunciation-problems-for.html But at least its a cultural indicator! Thanks for the heads up and consideration, Phillip. Best, Huw > > Huw, perhaps you'll be able to attend this conference. > > enjoy, everyone! > > phillip > [...] From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 12:09:08 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:09:08 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> <814BC7DD-C24F-4702-A753-71B5B06C4B8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: In the "conclusion" of Activity, Consciousness & Personality, Leontyev describes the problem of "interlevel transitions" as a future research question. http://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/1978/ch5b.htm Best, Huw On 1 April 2014 16:37, Greg Thompson wrote: > My question: > On the scale of the "local" as well as the "global", what will it take to > for us humans to recognize our mutuality of being? i.e., to see ourselves > in others and others in ourselves? > > But then again, 10 years is far too short a timeline... > -greg > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote: > > > Good luck in your inquiry, Laure. Here is my question: If an ounce of > > prevention is worth a pound of cure, what changes in human development > > would be required to implement practices that privilege prevention > instead > > of repair? > > > > David -- > > > > What is the incompatibility you see between schooling and cultural > > learning? > > My own take on this issue remains what it was a while back, as laid out > in > > the attached. > > > > So far as I can tell, the default answer to your question widely accepted > > among both developmentalists and the public is the intense preparation > for > > schooling beginning as early as possible in children's lives is the only > > way to go. More, not less, emphasis on school-as-we-know-it -- and lots > > more of it. > > > > Paradoxical, isn't it? > > mike > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:54 AM, David Preiss > > wrote: > > > > > One question that matters to me relates to the impact of schooling on > > > human development widely understood. I growingly think that schooling > is > > > not compatible with the natural processes of cultural learning, as > > > described by Tomasello. The question that arises is whether we can come > > up > > > with scalable and inclusive alternatives that are informed by what we > now > > > know are species compatible ways of instructing and learning. > > > David > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:02 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? > > > > Cheers > > > > LK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : > > > > > > > >> Laure, > > > >> I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" > > > >> questions. > > > >> Andy > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Laure Kloetzer wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Dear colleagues, > > > >>> > > > >>> As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I > > plan > > > to > > > >>> work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the > value > > of > > > >>> Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a > > > related > > > >>> question. Would you accept to share with the community here your > > > answers > > > >>> to > > > >>> the following question: > > > >>> > > > >>> Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would > > > dream to > > > >>> get an answer in the next ten years ? > > > >>> > > > >>> I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community > > > (cognition > > > >>> and development). > > > >>> > > > >>> The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of > > > things > > > >>> that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and > > (c) > > > to > > > >>> compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of > > > ignorance, > > > >>> (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life and > > > world. > > > >>> I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives to > > an > > > >>> accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from > > > engaging > > > >>> truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics > > > (which is > > > >>> also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be > > > crushed > > > >>> under them). > > > >>> > > > >>> What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological > > > >>> questions be ? > > > >>> Thanks for your help, > > > >>> Best, > > > >>> LK > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 13:02:53 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:02:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> <001801cf4d49$4d07c560$e7175020$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: Amen. Its been a great education! Thanks a lot for taking the time, Donna mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: > Dear Collaborators, Before this dialogue thread slows I'd like to send a > warm "Thank You!" to Donna for spending her time with us. It is so precious > to be able to talk with researchers/authors about their work, the thinking > behind their work, what we as readers see and how that does or doesn't fit > with the author's perspective. Thanks to all contributors for the time and > ideas shared.!Best to all - jen > > > > > > On 2014-03-31, at 9:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > With respect to collusion. I was thinking of McDermott and Tylbor > (below). > > See reference to collusion in the attached paper. > > mike > > ----------------- > > Necessity of Collusion (McDermott and Tylbor, 1995) *Posted* on > 2008.08.29 > > at 11:09 > > *Tags:* collusion , > > discourse, > > mcdermott , > > tylbor Collusion > > is based on the premise of "indefiniteness and precision". Individuals > have > > a repertoire of unspecified knowledge in order to understand each other. > > Additionally, individuals also utilise their knowledge of local context > in > > order to shape the previous unspecified knowledge into "mutually > > perceptible and reflexively consequential chunks" (1995:200). > > > > Collusion is also influenced by the institutional constraints that affect > > the ways in which we collude with each other. Take for instance, the > > generalised gender configurations available in a culture or the "specific > > institutions built around informational entanglements." (1995:221) > > > > > > 3 ways of appreciating language > > > > 1. Propositional vs. illocutionary analysis talk. Literal talk is > > important whereas the latter will attempt to extrapolate the "actual > > conditions of the social actors so that their intentions could protrude > > without anyone having very literally put them into words" (224) > > 2. Collusional approach is interested in "ongoing social scenes into > > which people walk and talk their lives together" (224). > > > > Notes: Collusion and power would therefore be useful in an analysis of > > power within a given context, specifically classroom setting. What is > said > > or what is not said in a given classroom can be useful in understanding > how > > activity structures are carried out. Role play for instance has the > > potential of being 'silly' but it is unsaid, and participants take part > in > > it, with the agreement that it is indeed silly and a one-off thing. > People > > as a general rule of thumb, do not actively 'play' a role, it is not > > overtly stated, in fact hidden or accepted as a norm. > > > > Students were well aware of the fact that this is an exception, not the > > norm, a suspension of 'real' classroom activities or the Hawthorne effect > > can possibly explain the situation. What does this mean for the > educational > > structure? Participants relish the ability to act out of the norm, does > > this mean the effect is a one-off scenario? Or is agency discovered and > > varied methods of learning emphasised? Is the subject still subjected to > > assessment despite being able to learn effectively? Or the knowledge that > > content is flexible and ever-changing? How have practices change beyond > > that of this implementation? IRE - Initiation, Response, Evaluation also > > took place. Push backs - moving the mantle of responsibility to the > > students. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 6:25 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < > > vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > > > >> This conversation is going too fast for me, and besides, I think it has > >> shifted anyway, but... I want to grab (position) a comment that > connects > >> to > >> much we talk about here: the roots of collusion and collaboration. > >> However > >> slimy and sneaky it has been passed down to us, the root of collusion is > >> still from Cum (with) and ludus (play, fun) while collaboration is from > cum > >> (with) and labor (work). We set up a polar dialectics to make us the > >> "protagonists" while the others are "antagonists" (words from drama!). > We > >> have to make distinctions because that is what minds, brains in bodies > do. > >> If we want to develop a concept we can get our teeth into, we have to > say > >> what it is like and what it isn't like, to begin with. Think of > Dietrich > >> Bonhoeffer as colluding while the Party was collaborating. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:22 PM > >> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > >> > >> Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word > >> collaboration, Andy? > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > >>> Donna, > >>> I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories > >> here. > >>> Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are > >>> positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's > >>> cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite > >>> enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are > >>> formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it > >>> seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of > >>> concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active > >>> instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which > >>> necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, > and > >> "different points of view." > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> -- > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>> > >>>> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has > >>>> taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline > >>>> infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual > >>>> level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or > >>>> make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully > >>>> familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research > >>>> and "theory of self" here would be a useful. > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >>>> dkotsopoulos> > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > >>>> intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > >>>> recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > >> strictly prohibited. > >>>>>>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, > >>>> Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > >>>> If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask > >>>> "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the > >>>> artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has > >>>> acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, > >>>> that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these > >>>> "roles" (?) are meaningful. > >>>> In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a > >>>> great extent before the collaborators meet. > >>>> Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of > >>>> collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the > classroom. > >>>> So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which > >>>> pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. > >>>> Andy > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> --- > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>>> Lynda, > >>>>> Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the > >>>> center > >>>>> of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > >>>>> collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) > >>>>> inevitable. On > >>>> the > >>>>> other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > >>>>> collaborate, > >>>> and > >>>>> collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional > >>>>> education (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > >>>>> > >>>>> I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > >>>> collaborative > >>>>> - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > >>>>> "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > >>>>> traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration > >>>>> for everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna > >>>>> describes > >>>> appear > >>>>> not to be good for everyone. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > >> "collaboration" > >>>> is > >>>>> everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which > >>>>> it > >>>> must > >>>>> be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > >>>>> classrooms". > >>>>> > >>>>> That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks > >>>> discussing > >>>>> on the listserve. > >>>>> > >>>>> And it seems to me like there is some really important work still > >>>>> to be done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > >>>> "collaboration" > >>>>> and notions of "classroom collaboration". > >>>>> > >>>>> For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places > >> (e.g. > >>>>> "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different > >>>>> configurations of "collaboration" can be differently productive for > >> different children. > >>>> And > >>>>> also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > >>>>> collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > >>>>> > >>>>> So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative > >>>> classrooms" > >>>>> might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many > >>>> problems > >>>>> that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > >>>>> > >>>>> That's just my two nickels worth. > >>>>> (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > >>>>> -greg > >>>>> > >>>>> "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which > >>>>> I > >>>> can > >>>>> seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity > >>>>> is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material > >>>>> of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the > >>>>> language in > >>>> which > >>>>> the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and > >>>> therefore > >>>>> that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with > >>>>> the consciousness of myself as a social being." > >>>>> Marx, 1844, p. 298 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > >>>>> >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Greg! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm > >>>> dropping in > >>>>>> to make > >>>>>> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the > >>>>>> conversation around collaboration. Although his reason may be > >>>>>> grounded in a Marxist angle, equally important is a biological > >>>>>> one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we > >>>> come > >>>>>> with the > >>>>>> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally > >>>>>> collaborative process. So, each and every time peers, teachers > >>>>>> and students, etc. come to some > >>>> relatively > >>>>>> shared > >>>>>> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and > >>>>>> so forth, they are engaged in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than > >>>>>> one person/child taking part in > >>>> an > >>>>>> event/activity. And, > >>>>>> because events/activities come into existence through discourse > >>>> practices > >>>>>> and are influenced > >>>>>> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the > >>>>>> larger culture), to understand collaboration from participants' > >>>>>> point of view requires an > >>>> understanding > >>>>>> of the situation > >>>>>> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > >>>> collaboration > >>>>>> in educational settings > >>>>>> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in > >>>>>> contrast > >>>> to > >>>>>> traditional educational > >>>>>> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental > process, > >>>> just > >>>>>> as infants learn how over > >>>>>> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at > >>>> this > >>>>>> moment? And, "how > >>>>>> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other > >>>> contextual > >>>>>> questions that can > >>>>>> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration > >>>>>> be configured. For example, how do children come to value (or see > >>>>>> as morally right) helping/coordinating behaviors? Under what > >>>>>> circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is > >>>>>> this related to the social norms and expectations? I have found > >>>>>> that the context shapes what collaboration means and as a > >>>>>> consequence influences the social processes that enable children > >>>>>> to cooperate (or not) with each other. > >>>>>> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a > >>>>>> positioning process---one that is also influenced by the > >>>>>> meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in learning > >>>>>> activity with others. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >>>>>> "collaboration"---I hope my musings on the topic contributes a > >>>>>> bit. In any case, Donna's paper has > >>>> certainly > >>>>>> pushed my thinking-- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> An appreciative lurker! > >>>>>> -lynda > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What KINDS of > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > >>>> configured. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a > >>>>>>> definitional > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> problem > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> here: What is collaboration? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be > >>>> human is > >>>>>>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative > >>>>>>> all > >>>> the > >>>>>>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > >>>>>>> classrooms > >>>> are > >>>>>>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers > >> think. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing > >>>>>>> about education. Ed researchers start at square one that says > >>>>>>> that students > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> begin > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that > >>>>>>> one > >>>> must > >>>>>>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that > >>>> matter). > >>>>>>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as > >>>> exceptions to > >>>>>>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. > >>>>>>> And > >>>> in > >>>>>>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> particular > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this > >>>>>>> is > >>>> true > >>>>>>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that > >>>>>>> follows > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> this > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, > >>>>>>> this involves an active and conscious decision to do something > >>>>>>> different > >>>> from > >>>>>>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them > >>>>>>> work together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of > >> interaction. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> Some > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's > >> points). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> But > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is > >>>>>>> something unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. > >>>>>>> And in > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > >>>>>>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in > >>>>>>> education is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> sold > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > >>>>>>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to > >>>>>>> pursue > >>>> the > >>>>>>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this > >>>>>>> discourse > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> about > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> assumptions > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative > >>>> classrooms" > >>>>>>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, > >>>>>>> isn't collaboration always already there in the classroom - in > >>>>>>> the class > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> clown's > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring > >>>>>>> against > >>>> the > >>>>>>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or > >>>>>>> the principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find > >>>>>>> that even Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive > >>>>>>> collaborations in this classroom! It's just that they won't be > >>>>>>> happening during those times > >>>> that > >>>>>>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> collaborate > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS > >>>>>>> of collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > >>>> configured. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Collaboration anyone? > >>>>>>> -greg > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> invitation. I > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my > >>>>>>>> thinking > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> in a > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> number of ways. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best > >>>> interest > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them > >>>>>>>> collaborate, may > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> not > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That > >>>>>>>> student > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in > >>>>>>>> such instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual > >>>>>>>> well being/advancement, for example. That being said, any > >>>>>>>> collaborative > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> effort > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very > >>>>>>>> essence of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> human > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> must > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> be weighted. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if > >>>> given > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I > >>>>>>>> would > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> surmise > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> students, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would > >>>>>>>> have compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > >>>>>>>> standards, > >>>> and > >>>>>>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another > >>>>>>>> interesting > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> case. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of > >>>>>>>> the > >>>> group > >>>>>>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She > >>>>>>>> would compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her > >> end. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the > >>>>>>>> work > >>>> for > >>>>>>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the > >> context. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> d. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>> Associate Professor > >>>>>>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > >>>>>>>> Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>>>>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>>>>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>>>>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > >>>> intended > >>>>>>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > >>>> recipient(s). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> Any > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly > >>>> prohibited. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message > >>>>>>>>>>> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Blunden wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and > >>>>>>>> energy > >>>> to > >>>>>>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense > >>>>>>>> to > >>>> say > >>>>>>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their > >>>>>>>> best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this > >>>>>>>> question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in > >>>>>>>> the best interest of > >>>> this > >>>>>>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > >>>>>>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed > >>>> mechanisms > >>>>>>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be > >>>> damaging > >>>>>>>> to them. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> ------------ > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is > >>>>>>>>> an instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more > >>>>>>>>> realistic expectations of school based collaborations are in > >>>>>>>>> order. There is compromise with every human relationship and > >>>>>>>>> the same is true in collaborative activities with children and > >> schools. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for > >>>>>>>>> these > >>>> types > >>>>>>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a > >>>>>>>>> school setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to > >>>>>>>>> include the possibility of compromise, an open lens attending > >>>>>>>>> to productive silencing and what I had referred to in earlier > >>>>>>>>> drafts as productive privileging (Will's case in the article), > >>>>>>>>> a critical evaluation of learning and the kinds of learning that > >> has taken place. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 13:12:24 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 13:12:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> Message-ID: Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Michael, > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Glassman, Michael" > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Mike, > > I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I think > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways that > individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is > happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are they > really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been > controlling our behavioral trajectory. > > I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) or > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I am > having a hard time processing. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive > person to think with. See below. > > mike > > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > wrote: > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > > theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
Paul, > > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as > being > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than > you > > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory > taken > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. I'm > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I > have > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics > says > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as > the > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > Mind, > > Culture, Activity"
Subject: > [Xmca-l] > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
Paul, > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye > to > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. > Mead > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have > the > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but > it > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > > this argument...). > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion > to > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > mead's > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: roth.mediation.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 243882 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140401/782f9e55/attachment.pdf From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Tue Apr 1 13:30:16 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 16:30:16 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory In-Reply-To: References: <53331B91.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5333DFD2.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53343B1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53345483.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <533534E2.3000307@mira.net> <5335337F.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net> <53367D1E.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <0C5EB4FE-6A1D-4C5A-BB88-696DE3D672D2@csus.edu> <53376899.7060408@mira.net> <5337BCC3.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <5338DA90.1090001@mira.net> <001801cf4d49$4d07c560$e7175020$@shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: <533AE998.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Thank you to everyone for your inspiring conversation and your interest. I have sincerely appreciated this opportunity to extend my own thinking. Kind regards, d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 4/1/2014 at 4:02 PM, in message , mike cole wrote: Amen. Its been a great education! Thanks a lot for taking the time, Donna mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer < j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca> wrote: > Dear Collaborators, Before this dialogue thread slows I'd like to send a > warm "Thank You!" to Donna for spending her time with us. It is so precious > to be able to talk with researchers/authors about their work, the thinking > behind their work, what we as readers see and how that does or doesn't fit > with the author's perspective. Thanks to all contributors for the time and > ideas shared.!Best to all - jen > > > > > > On 2014-03-31, at 9:43 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > With respect to collusion. I was thinking of McDermott and Tylbor > (below). > > See reference to collusion in the attached paper. > > mike > > ----------------- > > Necessity of Collusion (McDermott and Tylbor, 1995) *Posted* on > 2008.08.29 > > at 11:09 > > *Tags:* collusion , > > discourse, > > mcdermott , > > tylbor Collusion > > is based on the premise of "indefiniteness and precision". Individuals > have > > a repertoire of unspecified knowledge in order to understand each other. > > Additionally, individuals also utilise their knowledge of local context > in > > order to shape the previous unspecified knowledge into "mutually > > perceptible and reflexively consequential chunks" (1995:200). > > > > Collusion is also influenced by the institutional constraints that affect > > the ways in which we collude with each other. Take for instance, the > > generalised gender configurations available in a culture or the "specific > > institutions built around informational entanglements." (1995:221) > > > > > > 3 ways of appreciating language > > > > 1. Propositional vs. illocutionary analysis talk. Literal talk is > > important whereas the latter will attempt to extrapolate the "actual > > conditions of the social actors so that their intentions could protrude > > without anyone having very literally put them into words" (224) > > 2. Collusional approach is interested in "ongoing social scenes into > > which people walk and talk their lives together" (224). > > > > Notes: Collusion and power would therefore be useful in an analysis of > > power within a given context, specifically classroom setting. What is > said > > or what is not said in a given classroom can be useful in understanding > how > > activity structures are carried out. Role play for instance has the > > potential of being 'silly' but it is unsaid, and participants take part > in > > it, with the agreement that it is indeed silly and a one-off thing. > People > > as a general rule of thumb, do not actively 'play' a role, it is not > > overtly stated, in fact hidden or accepted as a norm. > > > > Students were well aware of the fact that this is an exception, not the > > norm, a suspension of 'real' classroom activities or the Hawthorne effect > > can possibly explain the situation. What does this mean for the > educational > > structure? Participants relish the ability to act out of the norm, does > > this mean the effect is a one-off scenario? Or is agency discovered and > > varied methods of learning emphasised? Is the subject still subjected to > > assessment despite being able to learn effectively? Or the knowledge that > > content is flexible and ever-changing? How have practices change beyond > > that of this implementation? IRE - Initiation, Response, Evaluation also > > took place. Push backs - moving the mantle of responsibility to the > > students. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 6:25 PM, valerie A. Wilkinson < > > vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> wrote: > > > >> This conversation is going too fast for me, and besides, I think it has > >> shifted anyway, but... I want to grab (position) a comment that > connects > >> to > >> much we talk about here: the roots of collusion and collaboration. > >> However > >> slimy and sneaky it has been passed down to us, the root of collusion is > >> still from Cum (with) and ludus (play, fun) while collaboration is from > cum > >> (with) and labor (work). We set up a polar dialectics to make us the > >> "protagonists" while the others are "antagonists" (words from drama!). > We > >> have to make distinctions because that is what minds, brains in bodies > do. > >> If we want to develop a concept we can get our teeth into, we have to > say > >> what it is like and what it isn't like, to begin with. Think of > Dietrich > >> Bonhoeffer as colluding while the Party was collaborating. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > >> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 2:22 PM > >> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article on Positioning Theory > >> > >> Could you consider substituting the word collusion for the word > >> collaboration, Andy? > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Andy Blunden > wrote: > >> > >>> Donna, > >>> I don't think there is a particular need to go in search of theories > >> here. > >>> Positioning theory, which I gather (?) is the study of how people are > >>> positioned by and for collaboration, taken together with Vygotsky's > >>> cultural psychology and the tradition of acivity theory, seems quite > >>> enough for me. :) Vygotsky gave us an approach to how concepts are > >>> formed, through the collaborative use of tools and symbols, and it > >>> seems to me, that self-concept is an important limiting case of > >>> concept formation. I tend to see every collabortion as the active > >>> instantiation of a concept of "what we are doing together," which > >>> necessarily includes a diversity of actions by different individuals, > and > >> "different points of view." > >>> > >>> Andy > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> -- > >>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>> > >>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>> > >>>> The idea of the positioning occurring before the collaboration has > >>>> taken place is consistent with Gee's idea about one storyline > >>>> infecting another - both at the group level and at the individual > >>>> level. I believe that an individual can rewrite those storylines or > >>>> make conscious choices to adopt a different version. I'm not fully > >>>> familiar with this literature but I think the theory of mind research > >>>> and "theory of self" here would be a useful. > >>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics > >>>> Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > >>>> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >>>> dkotsopoulos> > >>>> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > >>>> intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > >>>> recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is > >> strictly prohibited. > >>>>>>> On 3/29/2014 at 8:43 PM, in message <53376899.7060408@mira.net>, > >>>> Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>> I'm learning a lot from all this! :) > >>>> If (in my example of the artist hiring a technician) we were to ask > >>>> "How is the technician positioned as a technician and how is the > >>>> artist positioned as an artist?" I am assuming that my reader has > >>>> acquired the same concepts of "technician" and "artist", that is, > >>>> that they are somewhat educated citizens of a society in which these > >>>> "roles" (?) are meaningful. > >>>> In other words, "positioning" is something which takes place to a > >>>> great extent before the collaborators meet. > >>>> Likewise, as Greg pointed out, the acceptable and expected modes of > >>>> collaboration are also created before the kids walk into the > classroom. > >>>> So positioning and collaboration are cultural products which > >>>> pre-exist their instantiation in any collaborative act. > >>>> Andy > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> --- > >>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>>> Lynda, > >>>>> Your email points to an interesting tension that I think is at the > >>>> center > >>>>> of the discussion of Donna's paper. On the one hand you note that > >>>>> collaboration is hard wired, biological, and (seemingly) > >>>>> inevitable. On > >>>> the > >>>>> other hand you point out that we have to teach children to > >>>>> collaborate, > >>>> and > >>>>> collaborative classrooms can be contrasted with traditional > >>>>> education (which is, by implication, not collaborative). > >>>>> > >>>>> I take Andy's point to be that even traditional education is > >>>> collaborative > >>>>> - just a different kind of collaboration from what you find in a > >>>>> "collaborative classroom." But the kind of collaboration we find in > >>>>> traditional classrooms might not be a good type of collaboration > >>>>> for everyone just as the "collaborative classrooms that Donna > >>>>> describes > >>>> appear > >>>>> not to be good for everyone. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thus, we see two notions of collaboration. One in which > >> "collaboration" > >>>> is > >>>>> everywhere (even in traditional education!) and the other in which > >>>>> it > >>>> must > >>>>> be "accomplished" or "made" by particular means - "collaborative > >>>>> classrooms". > >>>>> > >>>>> That seems to me to be one of the central tensions between folks > >>>> discussing > >>>>> on the listserve. > >>>>> > >>>>> And it seems to me like there is some really important work still > >>>>> to be done in laying bare this contradiction between notions of > >>>> "collaboration" > >>>>> and notions of "classroom collaboration". > >>>>> > >>>>> For example, how can we find "collaboration" in unexpected places > >> (e.g. > >>>>> "traditional education")? Similarly, how the different > >>>>> configurations of "collaboration" can be differently productive for > >> different children. > >>>> And > >>>>> also important, as Donna has pointed out, how might "classroom > >>>>> collaboration" not be so "collaborative"?! > >>>>> > >>>>> So then with this distinction, we might say that "collaborative > >>>> classrooms" > >>>>> might not be a panacea, but we could hardly solve any of the many > >>>> problems > >>>>> that confront us without some form of "collaboration." > >>>>> > >>>>> That's just my two nickels worth. > >>>>> (same as yesterday's two cents but adjusted for inflation). > >>>>> -greg > >>>>> > >>>>> "But also when I am active scientifically, etc. - an activity which > >>>>> I > >>>> can > >>>>> seldom perform in direct community with others - then my activity > >>>>> is social, because I perform it as a man. Not only is the material > >>>>> of my activity given to me as a social product (as is even the > >>>>> language in > >>>> which > >>>>> the thinker is active): my own existence is social activity, and > >>>> therefore > >>>>> that which I make of myself, I make of myself for society and with > >>>>> the consciousness of myself as a social being." > >>>>> Marx, 1844, p. 298 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Stone, Lynda > >>>>> >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Greg! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Well I generally try to maintain my role as a lurker---but I'm > >>>> dropping in > >>>>>> to make > >>>>>> a comment or two--hope they make sense and are of some help. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy's point may be what is needed to shape the trajectory of the > >>>>>> conversation around collaboration. Although his reason may be > >>>>>> grounded in a Marxist angle, equally important is a biological > >>>>>> one. We are hard wired to collaborate---we > >>>> come > >>>>>> with the > >>>>>> ability to engage in intersubjectivity, a fundamentally > >>>>>> collaborative process. So, each and every time peers, teachers > >>>>>> and students, etc. come to some > >>>> relatively > >>>>>> shared > >>>>>> understandings, feelings, or interactively enact an identity, and > >>>>>> so forth, they are engaged in collaborative acts, i.e.,more than > >>>>>> one person/child taking part in > >>>> an > >>>>>> event/activity. And, > >>>>>> because events/activities come into existence through discourse > >>>> practices > >>>>>> and are influenced > >>>>>> by the local culture (its historical past & connection to the > >>>>>> larger culture), to understand collaboration from participants' > >>>>>> point of view requires an > >>>> understanding > >>>>>> of the situation > >>>>>> they are in and how this situation emerges over time---so, > >>>> collaboration > >>>>>> in educational settings > >>>>>> is not only a way of "rethinking/restructuring" engagement in > >>>>>> contrast > >>>> to > >>>>>> traditional educational > >>>>>> practices--collaboration is itself part of a developmental > process, > >>>> just > >>>>>> as infants learn how over > >>>>>> time to collaborate with their parents in different cultures. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, Andy's questions: "What kinds of collaborations are needed at > >>>> this > >>>>>> moment? And, "how > >>>>>> should they be configured?" can be combined with so many other > >>>> contextual > >>>>>> questions that can > >>>>>> help unravel what collaboration means and how should collaboration > >>>>>> be configured. For example, how do children come to value (or see > >>>>>> as morally right) helping/coordinating behaviors? Under what > >>>>>> circumstances to children collaborate (help) each other and how is > >>>>>> this related to the social norms and expectations? I have found > >>>>>> that the context shapes what collaboration means and as a > >>>>>> consequence influences the social processes that enable children > >>>>>> to cooperate (or not) with each other. > >>>>>> An essential part of any collaboration, as Donna points out, is a > >>>>>> positioning process---one that is also influenced by the > >>>>>> meaning/definition/value/moral aspects of engaging in learning > >>>>>> activity with others. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There are so many other questions to be asked to figure out > >>>>>> "collaboration"---I hope my musings on the topic contributes a > >>>>>> bit. In any case, Donna's paper has > >>>> certainly > >>>>>> pushed my thinking-- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> An appreciative lurker! > >>>>>> -lynda > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What KINDS of > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > >>>> configured. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Folks, if I may jump in here, I think that there is a > >>>>>>> definitional > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> problem > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> here: What is collaboration? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Andy seems to be coming at this from the Marx's angle that to be > >>>> human is > >>>>>>> to collaborate (man is a zoopoliticon - humans are collaborative > >>>>>>> all > >>>> the > >>>>>>> way down...). I think from Andy's point would be that all > >>>>>>> classrooms > >>>> are > >>>>>>> collaborative. But this isn't the way that most ed researchers > >> think. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The ideology of individualism runs rampant in much theorizing > >>>>>>> about education. Ed researchers start at square one that says > >>>>>>> that students > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> begin > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> as individuals. In this case "collaboration" is an activity that > >>>>>>> one > >>>> must > >>>>>>> ACTIVELY make happen in the classroom (or anywhere else for that > >>>> matter). > >>>>>>> "Group projects" and "collaborative classrooms" are seen as > >>>> exceptions to > >>>>>>> the rule of "individualized learning" that is taken as the norm. > >>>>>>> And > >>>> in > >>>>>>> theorizing about education, "collaborative classroom" has a very > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> particular > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> meaning (I'm not very familiar with this lit, but I gather this > >>>>>>> is > >>>> true > >>>>>>> from what Donna has told us - here and in her paper). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'd add that there is a counterpart in the business world that > >>>>>>> follows > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> this > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> same kind of thinking - it's called "working in teams." Again, > >>>>>>> this involves an active and conscious decision to do something > >>>>>>> different > >>>> from > >>>>>>> what people normally do (i.e. "individual work") and have them > >>>>>>> work together. Most folks in business know this genre/frame of > >> interaction. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> Some > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> are head over heels for it and some loathe it (one of Donna's > >> points). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> But > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> it seems to generally be accepted that "collaboration" is > >>>>>>> something unnatural that one must "make" happen. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It is this notion of "collaboration" that Donna is going after. > >>>>>>> And in > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> literature I'm willing to bet that people talk of "collaborative > >>>>>>> classrooms" as a panacea (this is how every "new" idea in > >>>>>>> education is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> sold > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> to people). Frankly, I think this makes for a very weak view of > >>>>>>> collaboration - and one in need of criticism (as Donna has done). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So I think that this would be a very interesting direction to > >>>>>>> pursue > >>>> the > >>>>>>> questions that Donna has raised in more depth: what is this > >>>>>>> discourse > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> about > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> "collaborative classrooms" all about? What are the fundamental > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> assumptions > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> that serve as the starting point against which "collaborative > >>>> classrooms" > >>>>>>> are seen as having to be "made"? And, to follow Andy's thinking, > >>>>>>> isn't collaboration always already there in the classroom - in > >>>>>>> the class > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> clown's > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> jokes, in the passing of notes during class, the conspiring > >>>>>>> against > >>>> the > >>>>>>> teacher or conspiring with the teacher against another class or > >>>>>>> the principal, etc. (and I bet if you looked closer, you'd find > >>>>>>> that even Mitchell is involved in some pretty impressive > >>>>>>> collaborations in this classroom! It's just that they won't be > >>>>>>> happening during those times > >>>> that > >>>>>>> are EXPLICITLY marked as "collaborative work"). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And I think this will naturally lead not to the question of "to > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> collaborate > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> or not to collaborate" but rather to Andy's question: What KINDS > >>>>>>> of collaborations are needed at this moment? How should they be > >>>> configured. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Collaboration anyone? > >>>>>>> -greg > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:58 AM, Donna Kotsopoulos > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's been a pleasure joining the group so thank you for this > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> invitation. I > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> admire the scholarly exchange and it has really stretched my > >>>>>>>> thinking > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> in a > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> number of ways. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Yes, for some students collaboration may not be in their best > >>>> interest > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> collaborate. Our objectives as teachers to have them > >>>>>>>> collaborate, may > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> not > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> be very relevant to the student or may be even harmful. That > >>>>>>>> student > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> really ought to have an option has to compromise something in > >>>>>>>> such instances - their emotional, social, and or intellectual > >>>>>>>> well being/advancement, for example. That being said, any > >>>>>>>> collaborative > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> effort > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> is a compromise of sort for each person. This is the very > >>>>>>>> essence of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> human > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> interaction. It's the degree and the damage from the compromise > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> must > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> be weighted. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Mitchell likely would have picked another person to work with if > >>>> given > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> option to work alone or work with a partner or small group. I > >>>>>>>> would > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> surmise > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> that the students he would have picked out would have been "nice" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> students, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> for lack of better words, than stars mathematically. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Alice would have picked the cool kids to work with. She would > >>>>>>>> have compromised her intellectual outcomes. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ella would have picked the smartest in the class by her > >>>>>>>> standards, > >>>> and > >>>>>>>> then should have tried to outsmart them. Ella is another > >>>>>>>> interesting > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> case. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Always the perpetrator in every group she was in regardless of > >>>>>>>> the > >>>> group > >>>>>>>> membership. Ella was also the class Victorian that year. She > >>>>>>>> would compromise social relationships to achieve her means to her > >> end. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Will would have picked those students that would have done the > >>>>>>>> work > >>>> for > >>>>>>>> him. Learning was an easy compromise for him. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Collaboration means compromise in my mind. Regardless of the > >> context. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> d. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > >>>>>>>> Associate Professor > >>>>>>>> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of > >>>>>>>> Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University > >>>>>>>> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > >>>>>>>> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > >>>>>>>> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is > >>>> intended > >>>>>>>> for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as > >>>> recipient(s). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> Any > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly > >>>> prohibited. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2014 at 9:54 AM, in message > >>>>>>>>>>> <53357F22.1070109@mira.net>, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Blunden wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thank you, Donna, BTW, for your generous use of your time and > >>>>>>>> energy > >>>> to > >>>>>>>> discuss these issues with XMCA-ers. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think this means then, Donna, that it cannot quite make sense > >>>>>>>> to > >>>> say > >>>>>>>> that "for some students... collaboration may not be in their > >>>>>>>> best interests", for the more appropriate posing of this > >>>>>>>> question must be *what type of collaboration* is or is not in > >>>>>>>> the best interest of > >>>> this > >>>>>>>> or that student. Which then poses the question of "What types of > >>>>>>>> collaboration are there?" rather than turning to the detailed > >>>> mechanisms > >>>>>>>> by which a given individual is positioned in a way which may be > >>>> damaging > >>>>>>>> to them. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What do you mean by "compromise" in this context, Donna? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> ------------ > >>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donna Kotsopoulos wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'll try to address the recent comments in one email. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Yes, I fully agree with Andy that every human relationship is > >>>>>>>>> an instance of collaboration. This should suggest that more > >>>>>>>>> realistic expectations of school based collaborations are in > >>>>>>>>> order. There is compromise with every human relationship and > >>>>>>>>> the same is true in collaborative activities with children and > >> schools. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Andy's point about the need for a conceptual framework for > >>>>>>>>> these > >>>> types > >>>>>>>>> of understanding such human relations and interactions in a > >>>>>>>>> school setting is interesting. Such a framework would have to > >>>>>>>>> include the possibility of compromise, an open lens attending > >>>>>>>>> to productive silencing and what I had referred to in earlier > >>>>>>>>> drafts as productive privileging (Will's case in the article), > >>>>>>>>> a critical evaluation of learning and the kinds of learning that > >> has taken place. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>>> Department of Anthropology > >>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > >>>>>>> Brigham Young University > >>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602 > >>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 1 15:56:54 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 15:56:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A followup on this bit of lint from the thread that led us to language/thought. The attached article is a summary of a lot of work by Lera Borditzky who is here at UCSD. Her website is full of interesting articles, but this brief one from Scientific American seems relevant to Michael's post concerning language/labelling and dual stimulation. As time permits! mike http://psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/sci-am-2011.pdf On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive > person to think with. See below. > > mike > > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so >> that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, >> Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM >> (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's >> theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
Paul, >> >> I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as >> being a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory >> than you might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a >> trajectory taken by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you >> want to day. I'm not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> >> At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave >> dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. >> Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to >> socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to >> the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I have >> a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always >> an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, >> "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to >> socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics says >> yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the >> i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her >> ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in >> her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into >> the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM >> (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended >> Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: >> [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
Paul, >> And another piece you might be interested in: >> Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in >> the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye >> to >> Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. >> doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 >> >> I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. >> Mead >> said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what >> Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the >> exact quote somewhere if you're interested. >> >> The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it >> seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been >> influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think >> they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of >> this argument...). >> >> I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and >> complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about >> the Mead/Vygotsky link. >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to >> > Vygotsky". >> > >> > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand >> > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. >> > >> > mike >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> > >> > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert >> mead's >> > > symbolic interactionism with >> > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? >> > > >> > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> > > President >> > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> > > www.mocombeian.com >> > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> > > www.paulcmocombe.info >> > > >> > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >> > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Tue Apr 1 17:14:11 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 11:14:11 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Tom Richardson wrote: > ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later > Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings > of man's actions are unconscious to him. > From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Tue Apr 1 17:37:50 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 17:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> Message-ID: <1894C512-A696-49A3-AA47-208A37CAA7CB@roadrunner.com> The ?true mainsprings of cultured man?s actions" may be unconscious to him but nevertheless are there. We experience a sense, subliminally, of how we are affected by the things that make up our world simply by the effect on us of the sounds of our words for those things. Vocal sounds are body language and words refer to specific things. We experience the emotive effects of our vocal sounds at the same instant as we are thinking about the things to which we refer with those sounds. Consequently, we associate to effects of the sounds with the things, even though the effects are a result of the sounds, not the things. In this culturally-specific way, we receive our world view. We gain a sense of how to proceed from how we seem to affected by our world. It?s all about survival, as one should know from science. Our notion of what actions constitute survival-oriented behavior is the result of the interaction between our assessment of ourselves (our self-image) and the world-view of our native culture-language. In order to change human behavior, we must change human culture and in order to do that, we must change language. ?In the beginning was the word?..?. Joseph Gilbert On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Tom Richardson wrote: >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 18:13:10 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> Message-ID: <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review of Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in Marx is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects and activity. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm ________________________________ From: Andy Blunden To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Tom Richardson wrote: > ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later > Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings > of man's actions are unconscious to him. > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 18:13:10 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> Message-ID: <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review of Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in Marx is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects and activity. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm ________________________________ From: Andy Blunden To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Tom Richardson wrote: > ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later > Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings > of man's actions are unconscious to him. > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 18:16:46 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <1894C512-A696-49A3-AA47-208A37CAA7CB@roadrunner.com> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1894C512-A696-49A3-AA47-208A37CAA7CB@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <1396401406.42649.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Sounds a bit Sapir-Whorfian... But a word--an image--is still a kind of commodity fetishism. Isn't it in the interaction of word and images in our heads that the material expression of our actions illuminate? http://www.ignatzmouse.net/pics/archives/kk/images/09-dec-1917--02-dec-1917.gif ________________________________ From: Joseph Gilbert To: ablunden@mira.net; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:37 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism The ?true mainsprings of cultured man?s actions" may be unconscious to him but nevertheless are there. We experience a sense, subliminally, of how we are affected by the things that make up our world simply by the effect on us of the sounds of our words for those things. Vocal sounds are body language and words refer to specific things. We experience the emotive effects of our vocal sounds at the same instant as we are thinking about the things to which we refer with those sounds. Consequently, we associate to effects of the sounds with the things, even though the effects are a result of the sounds, not the things. In this culturally-specific way, we receive our world view. We gain? a sense of how to proceed from how we seem to affected by our world. It?s all about survival, as one should know from science. Our notion of what actions constitute survival-oriented behavior is the result of the interaction between our assessment of ourselves (our self-image) and the world-view of our native culture-language. In order to change human behavior, we must change human culture and in order to do that, we must change language. ?In the beginning was the word?..?. ??? ??? Joseph Gilbert On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:14 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Tom Richardson wrote: >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Tue Apr 1 18:24:34 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 01:24:34 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. Martin On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: > Hi-- > > The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review of Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in Marx is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects and activity. > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > > ________________________________ > From: Andy Blunden > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by > feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the > concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > Tom Richardson wrote: >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and later >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true mainsprings >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >> From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 18:27:46 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1396402066.23769.YahooMailNeo@web164705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> An interesting article. But language is controlling only when it is invisible. Yielding to the power of language to control beliefs and recall, to trigger associations and prime opinions (the latter a much-practiced art in our poll-saturated world), the thing I take away from Dr. Boroditsky's paper is the degree to which (contra Saussure and the stronger version of Sapir-Whorf) language bends, even as it shapes.? I am playing around of course. But that is one of the things that is the mark (I think) of a certain degree of freedom, even in the bars of existing narratives, myths, words, and genres. That is for me what makes the Krazy Kat cartoons (one of which I linked to in a preceding response) a source of inspiration. Having played in the library and classroom, I will leave you to your deeper play.... Cheers, Doug ________________________________ From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:56 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism A followup on this bit of lint from the thread that led us to language/thought. The attached article is a summary of a lot of work by Lera Borditzky who is here at UCSD. Her website is full of interesting articles, but this brief one from Scientific American seems relevant to Michael's post concerning language/labelling and dual stimulation. As time permits! mike http://psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/sci-am-2011.pdf On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism.? Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive > person to think with. See below. > > mike > > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so >> that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, >> Michael"
Date:04/01/2014? 9:08 AM >>? (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's >> theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
Paul, >> >> I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as >> being a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory >> than you might think.? Have you looked at labeling theory?? Also a >> trajectory taken by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you >> want to day.? I'm not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> >> At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave >> dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. >> Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to >> socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to >> the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have >> a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always >> an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, >> "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to >> socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says >> yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the >> i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her >> ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in >> her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into >> the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM >> (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended >> Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: >> [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
Paul, >> And another piece you might be interested in: >> Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in >> the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye >> to >> Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. >> doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 >> >> I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. >> Mead >> said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what >> Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the >> exact quote somewhere if you're interested. >> >> The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it >> seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been >> influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think >> they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of >> this argument...). >> >> I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and >> complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about >> the Mead/Vygotsky link. >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to >> > Vygotsky". >> > >> > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand >> > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. >> > >> > mike >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> > >> > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert >> mead's >> > > symbolic interactionism with >> > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? >> > > >> > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> > > President >> > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> > > www.mocombeian.com >> > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> > > www.paulcmocombe.info >> > > >> > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >> > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 18:27:46 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 18:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1396402066.23769.YahooMailNeo@web164705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> An interesting article. But language is controlling only when it is invisible. Yielding to the power of language to control beliefs and recall, to trigger associations and prime opinions (the latter a much-practiced art in our poll-saturated world), the thing I take away from Dr. Boroditsky's paper is the degree to which (contra Saussure and the stronger version of Sapir-Whorf) language bends, even as it shapes.? I am playing around of course. But that is one of the things that is the mark (I think) of a certain degree of freedom, even in the bars of existing narratives, myths, words, and genres. That is for me what makes the Krazy Kat cartoons (one of which I linked to in a preceding response) a source of inspiration. Having played in the library and classroom, I will leave you to your deeper play.... Cheers, Doug ________________________________ From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:56 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism A followup on this bit of lint from the thread that led us to language/thought. The attached article is a summary of a lot of work by Lera Borditzky who is here at UCSD. Her website is full of interesting articles, but this brief one from Scientific American seems relevant to Michael's post concerning language/labelling and dual stimulation. As time permits! mike http://psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/sci-am-2011.pdf On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism.? Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive > person to think with. See below. > > mike > > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > >> Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so >> that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, >> Michael"
Date:04/01/2014? 9:08 AM >>? (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's >> theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
Paul, >> >> I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as >> being a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory >> than you might think.? Have you looked at labeling theory?? Also a >> trajectory taken by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you >> want to day.? I'm not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> >> At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave >> dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. >> Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to >> socialization via language and symbolic interaction.? This is similar to >> the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.? I have >> a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always >> an element of power and domination.? In essence my research question is, >> "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to >> socialization/domination by symbols and language.? Haitian metaphysics says >> yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as the >> i and me of language and symbolic interaction.? Zora Neale hurston in her >> ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in >> her literature...it is the essence of who we are.? I may have to go into >> the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. >> >> >> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> President >> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> www.mocombeian.com >> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> www.paulcmocombe.info >> >>
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < >> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014? 11:53 PM >> (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended >> Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: >> [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>
Paul, >> And another piece you might be interested in: >> Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in >> the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye >> to >> Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. >> doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 >> >> I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. >> Mead >> said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what >> Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have the >> exact quote somewhere if you're interested. >> >> The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but it >> seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been >> influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think >> they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of >> this argument...). >> >> I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and >> complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about >> the Mead/Vygotsky link. >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion to >> > Vygotsky". >> > >> > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand >> > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. >> > >> > mike >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >> > >> > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert >> mead's >> > > symbolic interactionism with >> > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? >> > > >> > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> > > President >> > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >> > > www.mocombeian.com >> > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com >> > > www.paulcmocombe.info >> > > >> > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >> > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> >> >> >> > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Apr 1 19:50:15 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:50:15 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes it is from Engels. On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > > Martin > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > Hi-- > > > > The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review of > Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in Marx > is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects and > activity. > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Andy Blunden > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by > > feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the > > concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > > Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > Tom Richardson wrote: > >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and > later > >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > mainsprings > >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > >> > > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Tue Apr 1 19:56:12 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:56:12 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: See highlighted phrase below :-). Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract ------------------------------ Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; Publisher: International Publishers (1968); First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; Translated: Donna Torr; Transcribed: Sally Ryanin 2000; HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. ------------------------------ London, July 14, 1893 Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to tell you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. I shall begin at the end ? the appendix on historical materialism, in which you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything which I might possibly have found out for myself ? in time ? but which Marx with his more rapid *coup d?oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered much more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with a man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at present; history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx and I always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to lay*, the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through the medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we neglected the formal side ? the ways and means by which these notions, etc., come about ? for the sake of the content. This has given our adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul Barth is a striking example. Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, indeed, but with a false consciousness. On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > > Martin > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > Hi-- > > > > The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review of > Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in Marx > is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects and > activity. > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Andy Blunden > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by > > feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think the > > concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > > Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > Tom Richardson wrote: > >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and > later > >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > mainsprings > >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > >> > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Apr 2 07:06:33 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:06:33 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com>, Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share. Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes refers to as primary experience and secondary experience. Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used in the sense that there is ?no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or agent? (Simpson, 2005a). What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is that he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us forward. Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience is the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back and forth but always starting with immediate experience. Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to try and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that is what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach activities as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience. Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate experience coming out of this conversation. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > Michael, > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "Glassman, Michael" > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Mike, > > I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I think > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways that > individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is > happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are they > really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been > controlling our behavioral trajectory. > > I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) or > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I am > having a hard time processing. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other but > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this "tool" > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a productive > person to think with. See below. > > mike > > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > wrote: > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing so > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > > theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
Paul, > > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as > being > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than > you > > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory > taken > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. I'm > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar to > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I > have > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as always > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question is, > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics > says > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as > the > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in her > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this in > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go into > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > Mind, > > Culture, Activity"
Subject: > [Xmca-l] > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
Paul, > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction in > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and Kaye > to > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. > Mead > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have > the > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but > it > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I think > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other of > > this argument...). > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat about > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion > to > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to understand > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > mead's > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 07:16:17 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 08:16:17 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Michael, Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated? Or are you saying something else? -greg On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share. > Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of > immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes > refers to as primary experience and secondary experience. > > Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article > that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation > > The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used in > the > sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or > agent' > (Simpson, 2005a). > > What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural > historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be > interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions > yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is that > he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is > what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you > make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is > given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us forward. > Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience is > the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate > experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back > and forth but always starting with immediate experience. > > Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to try > and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees > what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of > the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our > activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the > sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that is > what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach activities > as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience. > > Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate > experience coming out of this conversation. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he > is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is > sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do > we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? > > Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, > > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: "Glassman, Michael" > > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > Mike, > > > > I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, > > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I > think > > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as > > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways > that > > individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a > > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what > > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take > > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is > > happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are > they > > really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone > > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been > > controlling our behavioral trajectory. > > > > I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia > > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) > or > > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I > am > > having a hard time processing. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other > but > > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this > "tool" > > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a > productive > > person to think with. See below. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing > so > > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > > > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > > > theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
Paul, > > > > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as > > being > > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than > > you > > > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory > > taken > > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. > I'm > > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > > > > > Michael > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar > to > > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I > > have > > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as > always > > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question > is, > > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics > > says > > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as > > the > > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in > her > > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this > in > > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go > into > > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > > Mind, > > > Culture, Activity"
Subject: > > [Xmca-l] > > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
Paul, > > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction > in > > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and > Kaye > > to > > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. > > Mead > > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have > > the > > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but > > it > > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I > think > > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other > of > > > this argument...). > > > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat > about > > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion > > to > > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to > understand > > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > > mead's > > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > President > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From glassman.13@osu.edu Wed Apr 2 07:19:59 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 14:19:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5C1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Actually it was Michael Roth who seemed to be suggesting immediate experience is similar to flow (at least I think so). I think I am saying is that flow seems to be similar to Dewey's ideas of what vital immediate experience can and does look like. The difference is I think Dewey thinks it is much more common, much more integrated into learning, and can be taught - or at least should be the aim of educative processes. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:16 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism Michael, Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated? Or are you saying something else? -greg On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share. > Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of > immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes > refers to as primary experience and secondary experience. > > Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article > that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation > > The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used in > the > sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or > agent' > (Simpson, 2005a). > > What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural > historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be > interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions > yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is that > he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is > what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you > make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is > given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us forward. > Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience is > the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate > experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back > and forth but always starting with immediate experience. > > Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to try > and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees > what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of > the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our > activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the > sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that is > what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach activities > as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience. > > Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate > experience coming out of this conversation. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he > is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is > sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do > we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? > > Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, > > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > President > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > www.mocombeian.com > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: "Glassman, Michael" > > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > Mike, > > > > I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, > > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I > think > > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as > > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways > that > > individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a > > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what > > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take > > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is > > happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are > they > > really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone > > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been > > controlling our behavioral trajectory. > > > > I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia > > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) > or > > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I > am > > having a hard time processing. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural > > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other > but > > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with > > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this > "tool" > > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a > productive > > person to think with. See below. > > > > mike > > > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing > so > > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > > > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > > > theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
Paul, > > > > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as > > being > > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than > > you > > > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory > > taken > > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. > I'm > > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > > > > > Michael > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar > to > > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I > > have > > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as > always > > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question > is, > > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics > > says > > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as > > the > > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in > her > > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this > in > > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go > into > > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > > Mind, > > > Culture, Activity"
Subject: > > [Xmca-l] > > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
Paul, > > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction > in > > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and > Kaye > > to > > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. > > Mead > > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what > > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have > > the > > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but > > it > > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been > > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I > think > > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other > of > > > this argument...). > > > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and > > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat > about > > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion > > to > > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to > understand > > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > > mead's > > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > President > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 07:41:35 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 07:41:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5C1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5C1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: Greg, Michael, the question: Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated? Or are you saying something else? Is a fascinating question. Also the relation of *mediated* and *immediated* experiences and their relation to "vitality" In reflecting on "experiences" a further question is whether *immediate* or *mediated* experiences a question of "degrees? Michael, I have quiclkly looked at Bazerman's book and his exploration of literacy. Would Dewey implicate "genres" within IMMEDIATE experience? [as well as mediated experiences] What TYPE or KIND of relationship [or relationshipS] exist between immediate and mediated experience WITHIN "flow". Greg, your question is answered by Shotter in a particular way as the "flow" within the prosthetic-tool-text relationship as flowing btween mediated and immediate experiencing AS MULTIPLE relationships. Mead's exploration of taking the perspective of the other [specific and generalized other] also is exploring this relationship through the concept of "perspectives" Are perspectives immediate or mediated? On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 7:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Actually it was Michael Roth who seemed to be suggesting immediate > experience is similar to flow (at least I think so). I think I am saying > is that flow seems to be similar to Dewey's ideas of what vital immediate > experience can and does look like. The difference is I think Dewey thinks > it is much more common, much more integrated into learning, and can be > taught - or at least should be the aim of educative processes. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:16 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Michael, > Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated? > Or are you saying something else? > -greg > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael >wrote: > > > Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share. > > Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of > > immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes > > refers to as primary experience and secondary experience. > > > > Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article > > that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation > > > > The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used > in > > the > > sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or > > agent' > > (Simpson, 2005a). > > > > What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural > > historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be > > interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions > > yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is > that > > he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is > > what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you > > make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is > > given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us > forward. > > Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience > is > > the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate > > experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back > > and forth but always starting with immediate experience. > > > > Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to > try > > and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees > > what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of > > the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our > > activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the > > sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that > is > > what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach > activities > > as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience. > > > > Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate > > experience coming out of this conversation. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM > > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he > > is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture > is > > sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" > do > > we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? > > > > Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, > > > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by > heidegger > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > > From: "Glassman, Michael" > > > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, > > > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I > > think > > > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as > > > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways > > that > > > individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a > > > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what > > > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that > take > > > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is > > > happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are > > they > > > really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until > someone > > > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been > > > controlling our behavioral trajectory. > > > > > > I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia > > > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) > > or > > > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I > > am > > > having a hard time processing. > > > > > > Michael > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > > > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a > cultural > > > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other > > but > > > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position > with > > > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this > > "tool" > > > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > > > > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > > > > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a > > productive > > > person to think with. See below. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing > > so > > > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > > > > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > > > > theory and symbolic interactionism
> > > >
Paul, > > > > > > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as > > > being > > > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory > than > > > you > > > > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory > > > taken > > > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. > > I'm > > > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > ] > > > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar > > to > > > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. > I > > > have > > > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as > > always > > > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question > > is, > > > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian > metaphysics > > > says > > > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real > as > > > the > > > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in > > her > > > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about > this > > in > > > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go > > into > > > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg > Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > > > Mind, > > > > Culture, Activity"
Subject: > > > [Xmca-l] > > > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > > >
Paul, > > > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child > Interaction > > in > > > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and > > Kaye > > > to > > > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and > Mead. > > > Mead > > > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do > what > > > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I > have > > > the > > > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, > but > > > it > > > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have > been > > > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I > > think > > > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other > > of > > > > this argument...). > > > > > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links > and > > > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat > > about > > > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge > Companion > > > to > > > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to > > understand > > > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > > > mead's > > > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > > President > > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 08:01:58 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:01:58 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5C1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5C1@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: At the risk of introducing the profane into the sacred, Heidegger was saying something very similar to Dewey in his notion of "coping" (see an interesting third person discussion of Dreyfus discussing Heidegger here: http://clivebarnett.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/what-is-it-like-to-bat/) My take is that flow/absorption is mediated immediacy. It is mediated because our sense of the world is always culturally historically mediated. It is immediate because it often involves non-reflective absorption. Being absorbed in a beautiful sunset (or, for that matter, in "doing science"!) is not something that I suspect that dogs and cows and perhaps even chimpanzees do. Whether becoming absorbed in sunsets or science, the moment of being pulled into immediacy is highly mediated. -greg On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > Actually it was Michael Roth who seemed to be suggesting immediate > experience is similar to flow (at least I think so). I think I am saying > is that flow seems to be similar to Dewey's ideas of what vital immediate > experience can and does look like. The difference is I think Dewey thinks > it is much more common, much more integrated into learning, and can be > taught - or at least should be the aim of educative processes. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:16 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > Michael, > Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated? > Or are you saying something else? > -greg > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael >wrote: > > > Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share. > > Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of > > immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes > > refers to as primary experience and secondary experience. > > > > Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article > > that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation > > > > The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used > in > > the > > sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or > > agent' > > (Simpson, 2005a). > > > > What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural > > historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be > > interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions > > yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is > that > > he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is > > what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you > > make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is > > given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us > forward. > > Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience > is > > the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate > > experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back > > and forth but always starting with immediate experience. > > > > Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to > try > > and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees > > what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of > > the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our > > activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the > > sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that > is > > what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach > activities > > as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience. > > > > Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate > > experience coming out of this conversation. > > > > Michael > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM > > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he > > is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture > is > > sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" > do > > we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? > > > > Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. > > mike > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, > > > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by > heidegger > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > President > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > > From: "Glassman, Michael" > > > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, > > > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I > > think > > > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as > > > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways > > that > > > individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a > > > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what > > > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that > take > > > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is > > > happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are > > they > > > really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until > someone > > > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been > > > controlling our behavioral trajectory. > > > > > > I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia > > > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) > > or > > > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I > > am > > > having a hard time processing. > > > > > > Michael > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual > > > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a > cultural > > > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other > > but > > > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position > with > > > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this > > "tool" > > > and control yourself "from the outside" ?? > > > > > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. > > > > > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a > > productive > > > person to think with. See below. > > > > > > mike > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing > > so > > > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, > > > > Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM > > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > > > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's > > > > theory and symbolic interactionism
> > > >
Paul, > > > > > > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as > > > being > > > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory > than > > > you > > > > might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory > > > taken > > > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. > > I'm > > > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > ] > > > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave > > > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. > > > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to > > > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar > > to > > > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. > I > > > have > > > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as > > always > > > > an element of power and domination. In essence my research question > > is, > > > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to > > > > socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian > metaphysics > > > says > > > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real > as > > > the > > > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in > > her > > > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about > this > > in > > > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go > > into > > > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > President > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > >
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg > Thompson < > > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM > > > > (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended > > > Mind, > > > > Culture, Activity"
Subject: > > > [Xmca-l] > > > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > > >
Paul, > > > > And another piece you might be interested in: > > > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child > Interaction > > in > > > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and > > Kaye > > > to > > > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. > > > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 > > > > > > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and > Mead. > > > Mead > > > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do > what > > > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I > have > > > the > > > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested. > > > > > > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, > but > > > it > > > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have > been > > > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I > > think > > > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other > > of > > > > this argument...). > > > > > > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links > and > > > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat > > about > > > > the Mead/Vygotsky link. > > > > > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge > Companion > > > to > > > > > Vygotsky". > > > > > > > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to > > understand > > > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. > > > > > > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < > > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert > > > mead's > > > > > > symbolic interactionism with > > > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > > > > > > President > > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > > > > > > www.mocombeian.com > > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info > > > > > > > > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > > > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 08:27:35 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 08:27:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" by virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. The imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined world in practice in order to discover its flaws. What do others conclude? mike On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > See highlighted phrase below :-). > > Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > ------------------------------ > > Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > Translated: Donna Torr; > Transcribed: Sally > Ryanin > 2000; > HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > ------------------------------ > London, July 14, 1893 > > Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you > were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal > acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to tell > you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > > I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in which > you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced > person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you > attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything > which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which Marx > with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered much > more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with a > man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one > deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser > easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at present; > history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be > safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > > Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx and I > always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we > are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to > lay*, > the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, > juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through the > medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we > neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, > etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our > adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul > Barth is a striking example. > > Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, > indeed, but with a false consciousness. > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > > > > Martin > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > > > Hi-- > > > > > > The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review > of > > Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in > Marx > > is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects > and > > activity. > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Andy Blunden > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > > > > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by > > > feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think > the > > > concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > > > Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > > > Andy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Richardson wrote: > > >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and > > later > > >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > > >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > > mainsprings > > >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > > >> > > > > > > > From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Wed Apr 2 09:49:58 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 09:49:58 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus to chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your cohorts in an isolated ivory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs of the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, using what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! Joseph Gilbert On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > > The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" by > virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. The > imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > > In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far > as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called > "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having > criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined > world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > > What do others conclude? > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > >> See highlighted phrase below :-). >> >> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >> ------------------------------ >> >> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >> Translated: Donna Torr; >> Transcribed: Sally >> Ryanin >> 2000; >> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >> ------------------------------ >> London, July 14, 1893 >> >> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you >> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal >> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to tell >> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >> >> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in which >> you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced >> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything >> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which Marx >> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered much >> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with a >> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at present; >> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be >> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >> >> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx and I >> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we >> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to >> lay*, >> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, >> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through the >> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, >> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >> Barth is a striking example. >> >> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, >> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >> >>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: >>> >>>> Hi-- >>>> >>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review >> of >>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >> Marx >>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects >> and >>> activity. >>>> >>>> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by >>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >> the >>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>> Andy >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and >>> later >>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>> mainsprings >>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From jack@actionresearch.net Wed Apr 2 10:01:27 2014 From: jack@actionresearch.net (Jack Whitehead) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 13:01:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Joseph - I?ve enjoyed reading your posting and I agree with you about emphasizing our own questioning and holding ourselves accountable for our influences (I think this is an implication of your note). I?m here in Philadelphia at the American Educational Research Association for two presentations on the 4 & 6 th April where I?m holding myself accountable for living as fully as possible the values I identify as contributing to a flourishing of humanity. Both papers can be accessed from the What?s New section of http://www.actionresearch.net . On 2 Apr 2014, at 12:49, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus to chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your cohorts in an isolated ivory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs of the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, using what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > > Joseph Gilbert Love Jack. ----------------------------------------------------------------- When Martin Dobson, a colleague, died in 2002 the last thing he said to me was 'Give my Love to the Department'. In the 20 years I'd worked with Martin it was his loving warmth of humanity that I recall with great life affirming pleasure and I'm hoping that in Love Jack we can share this value of common humanity. Jack Whitehead , Honorary Professor in Education at the University of Cumbria. Life-time member of OMNIBUS (All Bath University Staff). Secretary of Bath and West Co-operative Party. web-site http://www.actionresearch.net with email address. See the Educational Journal of Living Theories at: http://ejolts.net From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:47:43 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 11:47:43 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, I wonder how to be critical without being "crazy"? It seems like "lunatics"* are the best at providing alternative imaginaries. But it is also true that those who are most "critical" are often considered to be "lunatics". So does it matter? -greg *Please note the scare quotes around the words crazy and lunatic - they are intended to scare! i.e. they are NOT my categories or my definitions of them, rather I use the scare quotes to indicate that they are as perceived by society - "crazy" or "lunatic" as perceived by society. On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > > The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" by > virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. The > imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > > In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far > as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called > "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having > criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined > world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > > What do others conclude? > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >wrote: > > > See highlighted phrase below :-). > > > > Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > > Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > > ------------------------------ > > > > Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > > Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > > First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > > Translated: Donna Torr; > > Transcribed: Sally > > Ryanin > > 2000; > > HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > > ------------------------------ > > London, July 14, 1893 > > > > Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you > > were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal > > acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to > tell > > you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > > > > I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in > which > > you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced > > person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you > > attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything > > which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which > Marx > > with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered > much > > more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with > a > > man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one > > deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser > > easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at > present; > > history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be > > safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > > > > Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx > and I > > always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we > > are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to > > lay*, > > the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, > > juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through > the > > medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we > > neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, > > etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our > > adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul > > Barth is a striking example. > > > > Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, > > indeed, but with a false consciousness. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > > wrote: > > > > > Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > > > > > Hi-- > > > > > > > > The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review > > of > > > Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in > > Marx > > > is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects > > and > > > activity. > > > > > > > > > > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Andy Blunden > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by > > > > feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think > > the > > > > concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > > > > Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > > > > Andy > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Richardson wrote: > > > >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza > and > > > later > > > >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > > > >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > > > mainsprings > > > >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:53:16 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:53:16 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Darwin would weigh in on the process of luniness? mike On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > I wonder how to be critical without being "crazy"? > > It seems like "lunatics"* are the best at providing alternative > imaginaries. > > But it is also true that those who are most "critical" are often > considered to be "lunatics". > > So does it matter? > > -greg > *Please note the scare quotes around the words crazy and lunatic - they > are intended to scare! i.e. they are NOT my categories or my definitions of > them, rather I use the scare quotes to indicate that they are as perceived > by society - "crazy" or "lunatic" as perceived by society. > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 9:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >> >> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" >> by >> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. >> The >> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >> >> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far >> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called >> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having >> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined >> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >> >> What do others conclude? >> mike >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake > >wrote: >> >> > See highlighted phrase below :-). >> > >> > Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >> > Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >> > Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >> > First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >> > Translated: Donna Torr; >> > Transcribed: Sally >> > Ryanin >> > 2000; >> > HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >> > ------------------------------ >> > London, July 14, 1893 >> > >> > Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you >> > were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal >> > acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to >> tell >> > you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >> > >> > I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in >> which >> > you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced >> > person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >> > attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >> everything >> > which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which >> Marx >> > with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered >> much >> > more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years >> with a >> > man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >> > deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >> > easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at >> present; >> > history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be >> > safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >> > >> > Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx >> and I >> > always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we >> > are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to >> > lay*, >> > the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, >> > juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through >> the >> > medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >> > neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, >> > etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >> > adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >> > Barth is a striking example. >> > >> > Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, >> > indeed, but with a false consciousness. >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >> > > >> > > Martin >> > > >> > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Hi-- >> > > > >> > > > The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 >> review >> > of >> > > Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >> > Marx >> > > is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects >> > and >> > > activity. >> > > > >> > > > >> > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ________________________________ >> > > > From: Andy Blunden >> > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented >> by >> > > > feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >> > the >> > > > concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >> > > > Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >> > > > Andy >> > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > > *Andy Blunden* >> > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Tom Richardson wrote: >> > > >> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza >> and >> > > later >> > > >> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >> > > >> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >> > > mainsprings >> > > >> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From ablunden@mira.net Wed Apr 2 16:40:33 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:40:33 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <0e17untu0gtm2hblhniy4st7.1396371224486@email.android.com> <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16B5A2@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <533C9FF1.3000906@mira.net> I think there is a sense in which the immediate is a "flow", as in "one damn thing after another." Mediation always entails an "ever-present" element, reflection or development. But of course: "There is nothing, nothing in heaven, or in nature or in mind or anywhere else which does not equally contain both immediacy and mediation." http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/hl/hlbegin.htm#0092 Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > Michael, > Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated? > Or are you saying something else? > -greg > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote: > > >> Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share. >> Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of >> immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes >> refers to as primary experience and secondary experience. >> >> Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article >> that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation >> >> The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used in >> the >> sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or >> agent' >> (Simpson, 2005a). >> >> What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural >> historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be >> interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions >> yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is that >> he saw the two as something of a continuum. The immediate experience is >> what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you >> make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is >> given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us forward. >> Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience is >> the experience of brutes. But mediate experience divorced from immediate >> experience is hollow and empty. We need to maintain that connection back >> and forth but always starting with immediate experience. >> >> Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to try >> and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees >> what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of >> the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our >> activities. It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the >> sake of the activity, and it can be anything. As a matter of fact that is >> what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach activities >> as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience. >> >> Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate >> experience coming out of this conversation. >> >> Michael >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM >> To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> >> Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he >> is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture is >> sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it" do >> we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world? >> >> Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view. >> mike >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >> pmocombe@mocombeian.com >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Michael, >>> >>> Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand, >>> unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by heidegger >>> >>> >>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>> President >>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>> www.mocombeian.com >>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: "Glassman, Michael" >>> Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00) >>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> I wonder about the issue of tools. If something is use unconsciously, >>> without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool. I >>> >> think >> >>> of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as >>> overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways >>> >> that >> >>> individuals are not even aware of. It is sort of like, when riding a >>> bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward. But what >>> about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that take >>> us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is >>> happening to us. Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves? Are >>> >> they >> >>> really tools? We don't even realize the grooves are there until someone >>> yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been >>> controlling our behavioral trajectory. >>> >>> I don't know. I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia >>> Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?) >>> >> or >> >>> perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I >>> >> am >> >>> having a hard time processing. >>> >>> Michael >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>> >>> Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual >>> stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a cultural >>> artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other >>> >> but >> >>> are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position with >>> respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this >>> >> "tool" >> >>> and control yourself "from the outside" ?? >>> >>> Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling. >>> >>> Vis a vis symbolic interactionism. Kenneth Burke seems to me a >>> >> productive >> >>> person to think with. See below. >>> >>> mike >>> >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing >>>> >> so >> >>>> that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>> President >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>> >>>>
-------- Original message --------
From: "Glassman, >>>> Michael"
Date:04/01/2014 9:08 AM >>>> (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >>>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's >>>> theory and symbolic interactionism
>>>>
Paul, >>>> >>>> I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as >>>> >>> being >>> >>>> a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory than >>>> >>> you >>> >>>> might think. Have you looked at labeling theory? Also a trajectory >>>> >>> taken >>> >>>> by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day. >>>> >> I'm >> >>>> not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> >> ] >> >>>> on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>> >>>> At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave >>>> dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e. >>>> Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to >>>> socialization via language and symbolic interaction. This is similar >>>> >> to >> >>>> the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno. I >>>> >>> have >>> >>>> a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as >>>> >> always >> >>>> an element of power and domination. In essence my research question >>>> >> is, >> >>>> "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to >>>> socialization/domination by symbols and language. Haitian metaphysics >>>> >>> says >>> >>>> yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real as >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> i and me of language and symbolic interaction. Zora Neale hurston in >>>> >> her >> >>>> ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about this >>>> >> in >> >>>> her literature...it is the essence of who we are. I may have to go >>>> >> into >> >>>> the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>> President >>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>> >>>>
-------- Original message --------
From: Greg Thompson < >>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Date:03/31/2014 11:53 PM >>>> (GMT-05:00)
To: Mike Cole ,"eXtended >>>> >>> Mind, >>> >>>> Culture, Activity"
Subject: >>>> >>> [Xmca-l] >>> >>>> Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>>>>
Paul, >>>> And another piece you might be interested in: >>>> Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child Interaction >>>> >> in >> >>>> the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and >>>> >> Kaye >> >>> to >>> >>>> Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447. >>>> doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433 >>>> >>>> I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and Mead. >>>> >>> Mead >>> >>>> said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do what >>>> Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I have >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> exact quote somewhere if you're interested. >>>> >>>> The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA, but >>>> >>> it >>> >>>> seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have been >>>> influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I >>>> >> think >> >>>> they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other >>>> >> of >> >>>> this argument...). >>>> >>>> I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links and >>>> complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat >>>> >> about >> >>>> the Mead/Vygotsky link. >>>> >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge Companion >>>>> >>> to >>> >>>>> Vygotsky". >>>>> >>>>> I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to >>>>> >> understand >> >>>>> where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework. >>>>> >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe < >>>>> pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert >>>>>> >>> mead's >>> >>>>>> symbolic interactionism with >>>>>> vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone? >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe >>>>>> President >>>>>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. >>>>>> www.mocombeian.com >>>>>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com >>>>>> www.paulcmocombe.info >>>>>> >>>>>> Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities >>>>>> www.routledge.com/9780415714372 >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Wed Apr 2 19:24:12 2014 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 22:24:12 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2DFDBA6F-7CA8-42E0-9206-A889C90732D2@eastsideinstitute.org> Joseph I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current "conversational thread." Lois Lois Holzman Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford Street Brooklyn, New York 11217 Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 Fax +1.718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Social Media Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter Blogs Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News Websites Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World All Stars Project On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus to chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your cohorts in an isolated ivory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs of the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, using what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > > Joseph Gilbert > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > >> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >> >> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" by >> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. The >> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >> >> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far >> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called >> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having >> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined >> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >> >> What do others conclude? >> mike >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake wrote: >> >>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>> >>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>> Transcribed: Sally >>> Ryanin >>> 2000; >>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>> ------------------------------ >>> London, July 14, 1893 >>> >>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you >>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal >>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to tell >>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>> >>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in which >>> you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced >>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything >>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which Marx >>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered much >>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with a >>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at present; >>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be >>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>> >>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx and I >>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we >>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to >>> lay*, >>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, >>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through the >>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, >>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >>> Barth is a striking example. >>> >>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, >>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi-- >>>>> >>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review >>> of >>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >>> Marx >>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects >>> and >>>> activity. >>>>> >>>>> >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by >>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >>> the >>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and >>>> later >>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>>> mainsprings >>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Apr 2 23:48:14 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 15:48:14 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <2DFDBA6F-7CA8-42E0-9206-A889C90732D2@eastsideinstitute.org> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2DFDBA6F-7CA8-42E0-9206-A889C90732D2@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. Here's what I found: "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman wrote: > Joseph > I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current "conversational thread." > Lois > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > >> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus to chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your cohorts in an isolated ivory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs of the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, using what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >> >> Joseph Gilbert >> >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>> >>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" by >>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. The >>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>> >>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far >>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called >>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having >>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined >>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>> >>> What do others conclude? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake wrote: >>> >>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>> >>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>> Ryanin >>>> 2000; >>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>> >>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you >>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal >>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to tell >>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>> >>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in which >>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced >>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything >>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which Marx >>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered much >>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with a >>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at present; >>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be >>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>> >>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx and I >>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we >>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to >>>> lay*, >>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, >>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through the >>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, >>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>> >>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, >>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi-- >>>>>> >>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review >>>> of >>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >>>> Marx >>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects >>>> and >>>>> activity. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by >>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >>>> the >>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and >>>>> later >>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>>>> mainsprings >>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Apr 3 01:46:23 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:46:23 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making Message-ID: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary decisions of daily life, not science. Any recommendations? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ From marina.everri@unipr.it Thu Apr 3 02:08:49 2014 From: marina.everri@unipr.it (Marina Everri) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:08:49 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> Message-ID: You can check the works of Moscovici and Doise: Moscovici, S & Doise, W (1994) Conflict & consensus. A general theory of collective decisions, Sage, London. Il giorno 4/3/14 10:46 AM, "Andy Blunden" ha scritto: >Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an >informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who >knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of >how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less >'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff >about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary >decisions of daily life, not science. > >Any recommendations? >Andy >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >*Andy Blunden* >http://home.mira.net/~andy/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: default.xml Type: application/xml Size: 3205 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140403/d4fc528f/attachment.rdf From mlevykh@shaw.ca Thu Apr 3 02:15:50 2014 From: mlevykh@shaw.ca (Michael) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 02:15:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net><1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2DFDBA6F-7CA8-42E0-9206-A889C90732D2@eastsideinstitute.org> Message-ID: <482562A4093341E6826CC75897E8EB6E@MichaelPC> David, But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? Michael ----------------------------------------- Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation Psycho-Educational Consultant Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach www.autisticvancouver.com 604.322.1019 Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication and Socially Appropriate Behaviour -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. Here's what I found: "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman wrote: > Joseph > I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current "conversational thread." > Lois > > Lois Holzman > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford Street > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > Social Media > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > Blogs > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > Websites > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > All Stars Project > > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > >> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus to chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your cohorts in an isolated i vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs of the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, using what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >> >> Joseph Gilbert >> >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>> >>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called thinkers" by >>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. The >>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>> >>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so far >>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be called >>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. Having >>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined >>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>> >>> What do others conclude? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake wrote: >>> >>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>> >>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>> Ryanin >>>> 2000; >>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>> >>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* you >>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare formal >>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to tell >>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>> >>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in which >>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any unprejudiced >>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in everything >>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which Marx >>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered much >>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years with a >>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at present; >>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will be >>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>> >>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx and I >>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which we >>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound to >>>> lay*, >>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of political, >>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising through the >>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these notions, >>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>> >>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker consciously, >>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi-- >>>>>> >>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 review >>>> of >>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >>>> Marx >>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real objects >>>> and >>>>> activity. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented by >>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >>>> the >>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza and >>>>> later >>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>>>> mainsprings >>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Apr 3 02:29:14 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 20:29:14 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> Message-ID: <533D29EA.6030801@mira.net> Thnaks Marina. I've ordered it! Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Marina Everri wrote: > You can check the works of Moscovici and Doise: > > Moscovici, S & Doise, W (1994) Conflict & consensus. A general theory of > collective decisions, Sage, London. > > > > > > > > Il giorno 4/3/14 10:46 AM, "Andy Blunden" ha scritto: > > >> Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an >> informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who >> knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of >> how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less >> 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff >> about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary >> decisions of daily life, not science. >> >> Any recommendations? >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > > From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 03:01:56 2014 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 10:01:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> It's not strictly 'psychological', but I think you would enjoy a piece by Marshall Ganz in American Journal of Sociology year 2000 (sorry, I don't have the precise reference to hand) - on decision-making in the Farmworkers Union in California. It includes a brilliant description of a surprising decision being made. Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: 03 April 2014 09:46 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary decisions of daily life, not science. Any recommendations? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From ablunden@mira.net Thu Apr 3 03:33:03 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:33:03 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> Message-ID: <533D38DF.4050206@mira.net> Resources and Resourcefulness: Leadership, Strategy and Organization in the Unionization of California Agriculture BY MARSHALL GANZ American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 105, No. 4, pp. 1003-1062 , 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ C Barker wrote: > It's not strictly 'psychological', but I think you would enjoy a piece by Marshall Ganz in American Journal of Sociology year 2000 (sorry, I don't have the precise reference to hand) - on decision-making in the Farmworkers Union in California. It includes a brilliant description of a surprising decision being made. > > Colin Barker > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: 03 April 2014 09:46 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making > > Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an > informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who > knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of > how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less > 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff > about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary > decisions of daily life, not science. > > Any recommendations? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > > > From dkotsopo@wlu.ca Thu Apr 3 03:51:29 2014 From: dkotsopo@wlu.ca (Donna Kotsopoulos) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 06:51:29 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> Message-ID: <533D04F1.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> I think this is the article that Colin referred to: Ganz, M. (2000). Resources and Resourcefulness: Strategic Capacity in the Unionization of California Agriculture, 1959-1966. American Journal of Sociology, 105(4), 1003-1062. I don't have a copy but I did have the reference! d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 4/3/2014 at 6:01 AM, in message <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2>, C Barker wrote: It's not strictly 'psychological', but I think you would enjoy a piece by Marshall Ganz in American Journal of Sociology year 2000 (sorry, I don't have the precise reference to hand) - on decision-making in the Farmworkers Union in California. It includes a brilliant description of a surprising decision being made. Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: 03 April 2014 09:46 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary decisions of daily life, not science. Any recommendations? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From smago@uga.edu Thu Apr 3 04:11:25 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:11:25 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <533D04F1.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> <533D04F1.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> Message-ID: <73e7df71f97e4739a2a84463e8766fcc@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3003887?uid=3739616&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103598292451 You can read it online if you register with jstor. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Kotsopoulos Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:51 AM To: CultureActivity eXtended Mind; ablunden@mira.net Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making I think this is the article that Colin referred to: Ganz, M. (2000). Resources and Resourcefulness: Strategic Capacity in the Unionization of California Agriculture, 1959-1966. American Journal of Sociology, 105(4), 1003-1062. I don't have a copy but I did have the reference! d. Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. Associate Professor Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University 75 University Avenue West, BA313K Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 (519) 884-0710 x 3953 www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos www.wlu.ca/mathbrains DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >>> On 4/3/2014 at 6:01 AM, in message <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2>, C Barker wrote: It's not strictly 'psychological', but I think you would enjoy a piece by Marshall Ganz in American Journal of Sociology year 2000 (sorry, I don't have the precise reference to hand) - on decision-making in the Farmworkers Union in California. It includes a brilliant description of a surprising decision being made. Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] Sent: 03 April 2014 09:46 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary decisions of daily life, not science. Any recommendations? Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From ablunden@mira.net Thu Apr 3 04:16:01 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:16:01 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <73e7df71f97e4739a2a84463e8766fcc@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> <533D04F1.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <73e7df71f97e4739a2a84463e8766fcc@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <533D42F1.5090609@mira.net> It's OK, I downloaded it from http://leadingchangenetwork.com/files/2012/05/Resources-and-Resourcefulness.-Strategic-Capacity-in-the-Unionization-of-California-Agriculture-1959-1966.pdf :) Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3003887?uid=3739616&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103598292451 > > You can read it online if you register with jstor. > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Kotsopoulos > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:51 AM > To: CultureActivity eXtended Mind; ablunden@mira.net > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making > > I think this is the article that Colin referred to: > > Ganz, M. (2000). Resources and Resourcefulness: Strategic Capacity in the Unionization of California Agriculture, 1959-1966. American Journal of Sociology, 105(4), 1003-1062. > > I don't have a copy but I did have the reference! > > d. > > > > Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University > 75 University Avenue West, BA313K > Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 > (519) 884-0710 x 3953 > www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos > www.wlu.ca/mathbrains > > > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. > >>>> On 4/3/2014 at 6:01 AM, in message <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2>, C Barker wrote: >>>> > > It's not strictly 'psychological', but I think you would enjoy a piece by Marshall Ganz in American Journal of Sociology year 2000 (sorry, I don't have the precise reference to hand) - on decision-making in the Farmworkers Union in California. It includes a brilliant description of a surprising decision being made. > > Colin Barker > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] > Sent: 03 April 2014 09:46 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making > > Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary decisions of daily life, not science. > > Any recommendations? > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 07:37:46 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 08:37:46 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making In-Reply-To: <533D42F1.5090609@mira.net> References: <533D1FDF.8050300@mira.net> <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2> <533D04F1.6308.0085.1@wlu.ca> <73e7df71f97e4739a2a84463e8766fcc@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <533D42F1.5090609@mira.net> Message-ID: <2F604B68-943E-429D-9345-84C39F4769DF@gmail.com> Cass sunstein has done some interesting work on polarization of opinions in decision making. Not sure if that's on point. Greg Sent from my iPhone On Apr 3, 2014, at 5:16 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > It's OK, I downloaded it from http://leadingchangenetwork.com/files/2012/05/Resources-and-Resourcefulness.-Strategic-Capacity-in-the-Unionization-of-California-Agriculture-1959-1966.pdf > > :) > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Peter Smagorinsky wrote: >> http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3003887?uid=3739616&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103598292451 >> >> You can read it online if you register with jstor. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Donna Kotsopoulos >> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:51 AM >> To: CultureActivity eXtended Mind; ablunden@mira.net >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: decision-making >> >> I think this is the article that Colin referred to: >> >> Ganz, M. (2000). Resources and Resourcefulness: Strategic Capacity in the Unionization of California Agriculture, 1959-1966. American Journal of Sociology, 105(4), 1003-1062. >> >> I don't have a copy but I did have the reference! >> >> d. >> >> >> >> Donna Kotsopoulos, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Faculty of Education & Faculty of Science, Department of Mathematics Wilfrid Laurier University >> 75 University Avenue West, BA313K >> Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 3C5 >> (519) 884-0710 x 3953 >> www.wlu.ca/education/dkotsopoulos >> www.wlu.ca/mathbrains >> >> >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file(s) transmitted with it, is intended for the exclusive use by the person(s) mentioned above as recipient(s). Any unauthorized distribution, copying or other use is strictly prohibited. >> >>>>> On 4/3/2014 at 6:01 AM, in message <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880DD4D17B9@exmb2>, C Barker wrote: >> >> It's not strictly 'psychological', but I think you would enjoy a piece by Marshall Ganz in American Journal of Sociology year 2000 (sorry, I don't have the precise reference to hand) - on decision-making in the Farmworkers Union in California. It includes a brilliant description of a surprising decision being made. >> >> Colin Barker >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] >> Sent: 03 April 2014 09:46 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] decision-making >> >> Does anyone know of any detailed psychological studies of how an informal group of people (preferably adults and certainly people who knew each other), make a collective decision. I have heard of studies of how juries work, which is interesting, but I would prefer something less 'artificial' and formal, perhaps in a work situation. I have read stuff about collective cognition (e.g. scientists) but I mean more ordinary decisions of daily life, not science. >> >> Any recommendations? >> Andy >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 08:13:53 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 08:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Fwd=3A_Assistant_professorship_in_sociocultural_p?= =?iso-8859-1?q?sychology_at_the_University_of_Neuch=E2tel?= In-Reply-To: <533BD427.8070400@unine.ch> References: <533BD2D2.4040702@unine.ch> <533BD427.8070400@unine.ch> Message-ID: Invitation to apply for a job in Europe. mike - From: Tania Zittoun Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 2:11 AM Subject: Assistant professorship in sociocultural psychology at the University of Neuch?tel -- Tania Zittoun Professeure Institut de psychologie et ?ducation Universit? de Neuch?tel FLSH - Louis Agassiz 1 CH - 2000 Neuch?tel Switzerland Bureau/office 3.21 tel +41 (0)32 718 19 89 fax +41 (0)32 718 18 51 tania.zittoun@unine.chhttp://www2.unine.ch/ipe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PA_PSYSOCIOCULT_UNINE_ENG.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 310127 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140403/534a92ed/attachment-0001.pdf From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:33:38 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:33:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Lectureships at Cardiff University In-Reply-To: <3A3165F7-FE24-481A-ADFC-3594D300E8E9@cardiff.ac.uk> References: <3A3165F7-FE24-481A-ADFC-3594D300E8E9@cardiff.ac.uk> Message-ID: more jobs - Cardiff University School of Psychology is advertising up to four posts at the Lecturer/ Senior Lecturer level. One of the specified research areas is developmental cognitive neuroscience. Please see the advertisement below for more information. http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AIM068/lecturer-senior-lecturer-in-psychology/ Merideth Gattis School of Psychology Cardiff University psych.cf.ac.uk/development _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Thu Apr 3 09:34:26 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:34:26 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Reply to Lois Holzman Message-ID: Dear Lois, You asked about me rather than about my statements. My parents were labor organizers/teachers. Some of my relatives were crafts workers; others were artists/writers, etc.. Since childhood, I asked why the world is such a mess, why people do things contrary to their own self-interest, things such as war, smoking, excessive drinking, fighting and general nastiness. Originally, I assumed the problem resided within their own personal psychology but eventually realized that the culture is the repository of our misconceptions. The question arose of how the values of culture migrate to the minds of individuals. After patiently anticipating the arrival of the answer, I realized that all we had to go on to gain an official sense of the meaning of things was the effects on us of our words for things. These effects are the stuff of our basic, bottom-line benchmarks for assessing the meaning of the things that make up our world. The meaning of any thing can only be the same as its effect on us. How a thing affects us is its meaning. Its all very survival-oriented: How could it possibly be any other way? The phones are units of body language that we use in words to communicate the basic ways in which we are affected by the things of our world. Each phone carries its own charge. These effects of the phones can be experienced by voicing them, one at a time, out loud, repeatedly. Once we separate the phone from the word, we switch our focus to the effects of the sounds rather than on the referential meaning of the words. When we verbalize, we must concentrate on what we are talking about, on the referential function of words rather than on the primal and universal effect of the phones on our emotional canvass. So we loose awareness of the primal effect of the constituents of words (the phones). Nonetheless, we are still affected by our phones when we verbalize as we are when we vocalize. In order to understand how we are affected by phones when we verbalize, we must understand how we are affected by them when we vocalize. Verbalizing is a special case of the larger category of vocalizing. Verbal communication is based on (founded on) vocal communication. We can vocalize without verbalizing but we cannot verbalize without vocalizing. What is being communicated when we vocalize? What do the sounds of words tell us about the things to which those words refer? What information can be conveyed vocally by the phones? Understanding these things clarifies how different languages present us with different cultures and foster particular behavioral patterns in different societies. Lois, I reside in Ojai, Ca. on 3 acres with about 12 others. I have been reaching out to the established academic community with these findings for a long time and have encountered a lot of resistance and denial. The tools of one?s bread-and-butter-getting are not to be challenged without stirring up resentment, or so it seems. The premise that there is no meaningful relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings, that that relationship is ?arbitrary?, is ridiculous at best and misleading. It stems from looking for the meaning of words solely in terms of what they refer to. The primary meaning of words is how they affect us as sounds, as vocalizations rather than as verbal expressions. Those of us who want to make the world a better place may be glad to know that it is possible to do that. Despair and apathy are disease states that promote self-destruction. Nature equipped species with self-culling mechanisms. If an individual ran up against too much frustration, that genetic unit was ?judged? by nature to be a liability to the species and a candidate for removal from the gene-pool. That may have worked well enough for our non-linguistic ancestors, but for us now, works against our survival. If we avoid frustration, as personal policy, we will avoid dealing with whatever issues cause us to experience frustration (the very issues we most urgently need to address). With the institutionalization of vocalizing as verbalizing (the advent of spoken-word language), an alternate reality has been created. We socialized humans inhabit a world of our own making. Our language (the product of our ancient reaction to our circumstances) keeps us within the mindset of our linguistic ancestors, for better or for worse. We need to understand how we are affected by spoken-word language and to deliberately create language that represents our best current understanding. Please get back to me on this. Joseph C. Gilbert From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:35:30 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:35:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: <482562A4093341E6826CC75897E8EB6E@MichaelPC> References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net> <1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2DFDBA6F-7CA8-42E0-9206-A889C90732D2@eastsideinstitute.org> <482562A4093341E6826CC75897E8EB6E@MichaelPC> Message-ID: I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend our time more usefully, Michael. hangin' out in southern california. mike On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: > David, > > But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? > > Michael > > ----------------------------------------- > > Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. > > Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation > > Psycho-Educational Consultant > > Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach > > www.autisticvancouver.com > > 604.322.1019 > > Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication > > and Socially Appropriate Behaviour > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be > > relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, > > more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. > > > > Here's what I found: > > > > "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. > > > > "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) > > > > "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman > wrote: > > > Joseph > > > I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current > "conversational thread." > > > Lois > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > Social Media > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > Blogs > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > Websites > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert > wrote: > > > > > >> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking > rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. > By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, > one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious > beings > to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to > remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for > your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How > about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current > knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus > to > chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to > remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established > long > ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your > wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your > cohorts in an isolated i > > vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you > should > be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs > of > the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, > using > what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think > for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > > >> > > >> Joseph Gilbert > > >> > > >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > > >>> > > >>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called > thinkers" > by > > >>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. > The > > >>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > > >>> > > >>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so > far > > >>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be > called > > >>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. > Having > > >>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined > > >>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > > >>> > > >>> What do others conclude? > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). > > >>>> > > >>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > > >>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > > >>>> ------------------------------ > > >>>> > > >>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > > >>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > > >>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > > >>>> Translated: Donna Torr; > > >>>> Transcribed: Sally > > >>>> Ryan >in > > >>>> 2000; > > >>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > > >>>> ------------------------------ > > >>>> London, July 14, 1893 > > >>>> > > >>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* > you > > >>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare > formal > > >>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to > tell > > >>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > > >>>> > > >>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in > which > > >>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any > unprejudiced > > >>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you > > >>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in > everything > > >>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which > Marx > > >>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered > much > > >>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years > with a > > >>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one > > >>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser > > >>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at > present; > > >>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will > be > > >>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > > >>>> > > >>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx > and I > > >>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which > we > > >>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound > to > > >>>> lay*, > > >>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of > political, > > >>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising > through > the > > >>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we > > >>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these > notions, > > >>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our > > >>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul > > >>>> Barth is a striking example. > > >>>> > > >>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker > consciously, > > >>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Martin > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi-- > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 > review > > >>>> of > > >>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in > > >>>> Marx > > >>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real > objects > > >>>> and > > >>>>> activity. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>> From: Andy Blunden > > >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented > by > > >>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > > >>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > > >>>>>> Andy > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: > > >>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza > and > > >>>>> later > > >>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > > >>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > > >>>>> mainsprings > > >>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:40:41 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:40:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. take care mike http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo -- From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:42:53 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:42:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: FW: Full-Time, Permanent Research Associate, Three-Year Research Assistant, and PhD Studentship Posts in social sciences/social psychology/humanities study of Science and Religion (including Non-Belief). In-Reply-To: <49791D5263BA4B438A777D5618EC69D602BA6BF84833@Franklin> References: <49791D5263BA4B438A777D5618EC69D602BA6BF84833@Franklin> Message-ID: A bountiful season! *From:* Announcement forum for the Non-religion and Secularity Research Network [mailto:NSRN-ANNOUNCE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] *On Behalf Of *Fern Elsdon-Baker *Sent:* Wednesday, April 02, 2014 7:25 AM *To:* NSRN-ANNOUNCE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK *Subject:* [NSRN-Announce] Full-Time, Permanent Research Associate, Three-Year Research Assistant, and PhD Studentship Posts in social sciences/social psychology/humanities study of Science and Religion (including Non-Belief). *Full-Time, Permanent Research Associate, Three-Year Research Assistant, and PhD Studentship Posts in social sciences/social psychology/humanities study of Science and Religion (including Non-Belief).* We are looking to recruit *four full-time permanent contract* *postdoctoral research associate* posts to work on the 'Clash Narratives in Context: Uncovering the Social and Cultural Drivers of Contemporary Science vs. Religion Debates' project within the newly created University Research Centre for Trust, Peace and Social Relations. We welcome applications from experienced, enthusiastic and creative humanities and social science early career researchers. This large scale multidisciplinary project will build an empirical and theoretical understanding of what social and cultural factors have driven, and are currently driving, the narrative in the public domain that there is a necessary clash between religious belief and belonging and acceptance of evolutionary science. It will employ four intersecting approaches: qualitative social science field research; oral history, historical and media discourse analysis; social psychology experimental research; and a large scale quantitative survey of public perceptions, attitudes and identity formation in the UK and Canada. Post 1: Qualitative Social Sciences Research Associate Post 2: History, Philosophy or Social Studies of Science Research Associate Post 3: Social/Experimental or Psychology Postdoctoral Research Associate Post 4: Quantitative social studies Postdoctoral Research Associate *Closing date: 28th April 2014* *Interviews: 6th-9th May 2014* We are looking to recruit *an experienced* *three-year research assistant*to assist with the overall delivery, communication and management of the project. Post 5: Project Research Assistant *Closing date: 28th April 2014* *Interviews: 6th-9th May 2014* We are also looking to recruit *two PhD studentships* exploring contemporary debates surrounding 'science and religion' by undertaking relevant research in: PhD 1: Social Sciences/Humanities; PhD 2: Social/Experimental Psychology . *Closing date: 25 April 2014.* *Interviews in May 2014.* In addition the university will offer *two competitive two-year postdoctoral follow on research positions* dependent on the successful submission of PhD thesis within three years/by September 2017 to enable successful PhD students to be retained and develop further as early career professionals in this field of research. *Coventry University* will lead this 3-year research project funded by the *Templeton Religion Trust* in partnership with *York University (Canada)* and *National Life Stories* at the *British Library* and *British Science Association.*The research team is led by Principal Investigators *Dr Fern Elsdon-Baker (Coventry) and Prof. Bernard Lightman (York, Canada),*and Co-Investigators Dr Carola Leicht (Coventry) and Dr Rebecca Catto (Coventry). The project will commence 1st October 2014. *Applicants should apply online, making explicit reference to how they meet the person specification provided. Specific questions can be directed to Dr Fern Elsdon-Baker by email only *(Fern.Elsdon-Baker@coventry.ac.uk) *MODERN UNIVERSITY OF THE YEAR 2014* Source: The Times and The Sunday Times Good University Guide 2014 From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 09:56:07 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:56:07 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). David On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I > hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an > institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. > > take care > mike > > > http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo > > -- From mlevykh@shaw.ca Thu Apr 3 10:03:47 2014 From: mlevykh@shaw.ca (Michael) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 10:03:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism In-Reply-To: References: <533B5653.1000102@mira.net><1396401190.34614.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><2DFDBA6F-7CA8-42E0-9206-A889C90732D2@eastsideinstitute.org><482562A4093341E6826CC75897E8EB6E@MichaelPC> Message-ID: <018AF6C00BD146EDB7EB62CB4FAA759E@MichaelPC> Thank you, Mike, for your clarification. I guess I was under the wrong impression that ecological validity is more important than "number-crunching." Oh, well... Michael ----------------------------------------- Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation Psycho-Educational Consultant Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach www.autisticvancouver.com 604.322.1019 Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication and Socially Appropriate Behaviour -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: April-03-14 9:36 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend our time more usefully, Michael. hangin' out in southern california. mike On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: > David, > > But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? > > Michael > > ----------------------------------------- > > Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. > > Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation > > Psycho-Educational Consultant > > Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach > > www.autisticvancouver.com > > 604.322.1019 > > Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication > > and Socially Appropriate Behaviour > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > > > I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be > > relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, > > more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. > > > > Here's what I found: > > > > "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. > > > > "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) > > > > "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman > wrote: > > > Joseph > > > I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current > "conversational thread." > > > Lois > > > > > > Lois Holzman > > > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > > > 104-106 South Oxford Street > > > Brooklyn, New York 11217 > > > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > > > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > > > Fax +1.718.797.3966 > > > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > > > Social Media > > > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > > > Blogs > > > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > > > Websites > > > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > > > All Stars Project > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert > wrote: > > > > > >> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking > rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. > By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, > one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious > beings > to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to > remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for > your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How > about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current > knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus > to > chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to > remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established > long > ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your > wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your > cohorts in an isolated i > > vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you > should > be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs > of > the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, > using > what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think > for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > > >> > > >> Joseph Gilbert > > >> > > >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > > >>> > > >>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called > thinkers" > by > > >>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. > The > > >>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > > >>> > > >>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so > far > > >>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be > called > > >>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. > Having > > >>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined > > >>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > > >>> > > >>> What do others conclude? > > >>> mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). > > >>>> > > >>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > > >>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > > >>>> ------------------------------ > > >>>> > > >>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > > >>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > > >>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > > >>>> Translated: Donna Torr; > > >>>> Transcribed: Sally > > >>>> Ryan >in > > >>>> 2000; > > >>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > > >>>> ------------------------------ > > >>>> London, July 14, 1893 > > >>>> > > >>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* > you > > >>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare > formal > > >>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to > tell > > >>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > > >>>> > > >>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in > which > > >>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any > unprejudiced > > >>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you > > >>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in > everything > > >>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which > Marx > > >>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered > much > > >>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years > with a > > >>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one > > >>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser > > >>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at > present; > > >>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will > be > > >>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > > >>>> > > >>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx > and I > > >>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which > we > > >>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound > to > > >>>> lay*, > > >>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of > political, > > >>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising > through > the > > >>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we > > >>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these > notions, > > >>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our > > >>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul > > >>>> Barth is a striking example. > > >>>> > > >>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker > consciously, > > >>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Martin > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi-- > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 > review > > >>>> of > > >>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in > > >>>> Marx > > >>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real > objects > > >>>> and > > >>>>> activity. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>> From: Andy Blunden > > >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented > by > > >>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on > > >>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > > >>>>>> Andy > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > > >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: > > >>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza > and > > >>>>> later > > >>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" > > >>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > > >>>>> mainsprings > > >>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > From lspopov@bgsu.edu Thu Apr 3 10:08:51 2014 From: lspopov@bgsu.edu (Lubomir Savov Popov) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 17:08:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> References: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> Message-ID: College students are evidently adults. They are smart enough to curtail particular kinds of ideas by claiming personal protection from such ideas. The principle of protection can be used both ways. After this case, I would not be astonished if students start imposing restrictions on what they are thought. The whole sociocultural situation needs to be reconsidered with a fine balance among privileged ideas, individual rights, public good, etc. I have heard that the leftist organizations in the US had manuals for organized struggle. Several years ago the Tea Party activists used these manuals to craft their own versions. People are quick learners. They can take any tool and use it to their own benefit. Tools are tools. Neutral. It is the people who used them in accepted or unacceptable ways. We need to focus more on that side. Best wishes, Lubomir -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:56 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). David On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I > hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at > an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. > > take care > mike > > > http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140 > 331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo > > -- From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 10:10:30 2014 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 12:10:30 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> References: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a different opinion. I don't think it hurts anybody to be made aware that some novels and topics trigger more intense emotions in some due to past experiences of trauma. If anything, it poises us to think about the different experiences--many of these based in deep social inequities--that people bring to education and to build a pedagogy of responsiveness as a result. Theories of trauma are rooted in feminist theory, queer studies, disability studies, and critical race theory. Too often trauma-focused research and pedagogies of trauma and responsiveness are ignored, dismissed, or attacked because of education's grounding in rationalist (eurocentric, masculinist, heterosexist, etc.) ways of conceptualizing knowledge, education, and experience. My .02. Jenna McWilliams Cultural-Historical Research SIG Communications Chair, AERA Learning Sciences Program, Indiana University ~ jenmcwil@indiana.edu jennamcjenna@gmail.com On Apr 3, 2014, at 11:56 AM, David Preiss wrote: > This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). > David > > > On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" >> >> I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I >> hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an >> institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. >> >> take care >> mike >> >> >> http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo >> >> -- > > From helenaworthen@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 10:24:49 2014 From: helenaworthen@gmail.com (Helena Worthen) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:24:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> References: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> Message-ID: There's voter suppression and then there's education suppression. Helena Worthen On 4/3/14 9:56 AM, "David Preiss" wrote: >This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a >gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the >world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what >is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate >offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty >voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). >David > > >On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" >> >> I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I >> hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an >> institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. >> >> take care >> mike >> >> >> >>http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331 >>,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo >> >> -- > > From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 10:29:34 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 14:29:34 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7EC09BC2-D3B3-46E9-9167-412D2F976289@gmail.com> The list of sensitive material I can think of include almost all the authors I love and certainly poetry as a full cultural enterprise. On Apr 3, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Helena Worthen wrote: > There's voter suppression and then there's education suppression. > > Helena Worthen > > On 4/3/14 9:56 AM, "David Preiss" wrote: > >> This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a >> gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the >> world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what >> is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate >> offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty >> voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). >> David >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" >>> >>> I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I >>> hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an >>> institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. >>> >>> take care >>> mike >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331 >>> ,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo >>> >>> -- >> >> > > From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 10:30:47 2014 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 12:30:47 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0FB1ED-E286-4253-A160-E9B7BDA464CA@gmail.com> I have a different opinion. I don't think it hurts anybody to be made aware that some novels and topics trigger more intense emotions in some due to past experiences of trauma. If anything, it poised us to think about the different experiences--many of these based in deep social inequities--that people bring to education and to build a pedagogy of responsiveness as a result. Theories of trauma are rooted in feminist theory, queer studies, disability studies, and critical race theory. Too often trauma-focused research and pedagogies of trauma and responsiveness are ignored, dismissed, or attacked because of education's grounding in rationalist (eurocentric, masculinist, heterosexist, etc.) ways of conceptualizing knowledge, education, and experience. My .02. Jenna McWilliams Cultural-Historical Research SIG Communication Chair, AERA Indiana University jennamcjenna@gmail.com jenmcwil@indiana.edu Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:08 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: > > College students are evidently adults. They are smart enough to curtail particular kinds of ideas by claiming personal protection from such ideas. The principle of protection can be used both ways. After this case, I would not be astonished if students start imposing restrictions on what they are thought. The whole sociocultural situation needs to be reconsidered with a fine balance among privileged ideas, individual rights, public good, etc. > > I have heard that the leftist organizations in the US had manuals for organized struggle. Several years ago the Tea Party activists used these manuals to craft their own versions. People are quick learners. They can take any tool and use it to their own benefit. Tools are tools. Neutral. It is the people who used them in accepted or unacceptable ways. We need to focus more on that side. > > Best wishes, > > Lubomir > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:56 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: communication@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). > David > > >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: >> >> Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" >> >> I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I >> hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at >> an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. >> >> take care >> mike >> >> >> http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140 >> 331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo >> >> -- > > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Apr 3 12:09:30 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:09:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. take care mike http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo -- From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Thu Apr 3 12:13:13 2014 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:13:13 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: public schools ( K-12 ) have never had a history of academic freedom, which higher education benefits from. phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 1:09 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. take care mike http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo -- From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 12:18:15 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 16:18:15 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can understand those rules in a school environment as you are teaching under age kids, but applying those rule within universities adhering to the standards of a liberal education is quite a different species. On Apr 3, 2014, at 4:09 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. > > Peter Smagorinsky > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education > Department of Language and Literacy Education > The University of Georgia > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, GA 30602 > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. > > take care > mike > > > http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo > > -- > From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Apr 3 12:18:03 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:18:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16BA5C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Hi Peter, You may not run into this with your subject matter but what do you do when belief systems feel threatened by the topics you actually teach. For instance should a professor teach evolution? And should that professor be willing to say that Intelligent Design is not really a scientific theory? There are many I think who would consider that an implicit critique of their beliefs (actually I have had that experience). One of issues I have run into in class is many students have only minimal contact with Darwin or Freud or some of the other really interesting, important thinkers because fear of offending belief systems. But there are real dangers to that as well. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:09 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. take care mike http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo -- From smago@uga.edu Thu Apr 3 12:18:59 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:18:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: Announcement: 60th Anniversary of Brown v. Board of Ed. Conference at NYU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6897be7dad4f441c9a75e8342992de5c@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Dear Peter Smagorinsky We would appreciate your posting the announcement of a commemorative conference at NYU on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of Brown. Please find an official invitation attached, and visit our website at brown60.org for more details. Thanks very much. Dr. LaRuth Gray -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Brown60 Invitation.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 334953 bytes Desc: Brown60 Invitation.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140403/79602203/attachment.pdf From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 12:27:19 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 16:27:19 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <411D8D60-2375-460B-8517-47F34E7A89DA@gmail.com> Agreed, indeed the whole idea of a school curriculum challenges the idea of "academic freedom", in the way it is practiced in higher education; but that's a different debate. And certainly, "trigger warnings" and censorship can be the same, as reflected by the perpetual issue of the teaching of evolution in the USA. On Apr 3, 2014, at 4:13 PM, White, Phillip wrote: > public schools ( K-12 ) have never had a history of academic freedom, which higher education benefits from. > > phillip > > Phillip White, PhD > Urban Community Teacher Education Program > Site Coordinator > Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO > phillip.white@ucdenver.edu > or > pawhite@aps.k12.co.us > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 1:09 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. > > Peter Smagorinsky > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education > Department of Language and Literacy Education > The University of Georgia > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, GA 30602 > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. > > take care > mike > > > http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo > > -- > > From smago@uga.edu Thu Apr 3 12:37:07 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 19:37:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16BA5C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: , <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16BA5C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <911e77efb3b34802850c12555e427fc7@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> I can't say I have definitive answers. Because part of my job has often concerned teaching people how to teach English (literature, grammar, composition) in secondary schools, I tend not to have to get into things like evolution, though the science ed profs might have a different answer. On the other hand, I do advocate for LGBTQ students, even among a largely Southern Baptist set of students (where not only LGBTQ but postmodernism is verboten--too relativisitic. See http://rebekah1.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/the-devastating-effect-of-a-postmodern-church-part-1/ So far, no lawsuits or grievances in 24 years at Oklahoma and Georgia. Presently my teaching includes no assigned readings, and students run the classes, so whatever comes up, comes up from them. In my service-learning course (mostly sophomores), all reading is self-selected and discussed in book clubs and club-led whole-class discussions. They take on some tough ideas and material, but on their own terms, and what they discuss is pretty impressive. See http://smago.coe.uga.edu/SL/SLSyllabus.htm The other class is the operation of our grad-student-led scholarly journal, the Journal of Language and Literacy Education, where all reading is submitted manuscripts and all writing is manuscript reviews. The students also plan a conference, which tends to have an activist orientation to social justice issues--entirely their choice. http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/ One reason I run the service-learning class in this fashion is to allow them to raise and discuss the tough issues, rather than have me "lead" their thinking in professorial manner. They are far less resistant when they pick the topics and books and engage with them outside my imposition. Students always exceed my expectations when they are invested with authority with the issues, and they inevitably use that authority with respect and responsibility. Well, sorry if this comes across as braggadocio. I'm in the lobby of the plush Holiday Inn Express Hotel in Philadelphia, waiting for my room to become available for AERA. Wish you were here. p Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education ????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Hi Peter, You may not run into this with your subject matter but what do you do when belief systems feel threatened by the topics you actually teach. For instance should a professor teach evolution? And should that professor be willing to say that Intelligent Design is not really a scientific theory? There are many I think who would consider that an implicit critique of their beliefs (actually I have had that experience). One of issues I have run into in class is many students have only minimal contact with Darwin or Freud or some of the other really interesting, important thinkers because fear of offending belief systems. But there are real dangers to that as well. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:09 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. take care mike http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo -- From daviddpreiss@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 12:43:29 2014 From: daviddpreiss@gmail.com (David Preiss) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 16:43:29 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <911e77efb3b34802850c12555e427fc7@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: , <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16BA5C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> <911e77efb3b34802850c12555e427fc7@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Wow, Peter. This sounds like a great model of university teaching. Thanks for sharing this! David On Apr 3, 2014, at 4:37 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I can't say I have definitive answers. Because part of my job has often concerned teaching people how to teach English (literature, grammar, composition) in secondary schools, I tend not to have to get into things like evolution, though the science ed profs might have a different answer. On the other hand, I do advocate for LGBTQ students, even among a largely Southern Baptist set of students (where not only LGBTQ but postmodernism is verboten--too relativisitic. See http://rebekah1.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/the-devastating-effect-of-a-postmodern-church-part-1/ So far, no lawsuits or grievances in 24 years at Oklahoma and Georgia. > > Presently my teaching includes no assigned readings, and students run the classes, so whatever comes up, comes up from them. In my service-learning course (mostly sophomores), all reading is self-selected and discussed in book clubs and club-led whole-class discussions. They take on some tough ideas and material, but on their own terms, and what they discuss is pretty impressive. See http://smago.coe.uga.edu/SL/SLSyllabus.htm > > The other class is the operation of our grad-student-led scholarly journal, the Journal of Language and Literacy Education, where all reading is submitted manuscripts and all writing is manuscript reviews. The students also plan a conference, which tends to have an activist orientation to social justice issues--entirely their choice. http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/ > > One reason I run the service-learning class in this fashion is to allow them to raise and discuss the tough issues, rather than have me "lead" their thinking in professorial manner. They are far less resistant when they pick the topics and books and engage with them outside my imposition. Students always exceed my expectations when they are invested with authority with the issues, and they inevitably use that authority with respect and responsibility. > > Well, sorry if this comes across as braggadocio. I'm in the lobby of the plush Holiday Inn Express Hotel in Philadelphia, waiting for my room to become available for AERA. Wish you were here. p > > Peter Smagorinsky > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education > Department of Language and Literacy Education > The University of Georgia > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, GA 30602 > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:18 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > Hi Peter, > > You may not run into this with your subject matter but what do you do when belief systems feel threatened by the topics you actually teach. For instance should a professor teach evolution? And should that professor be willing to say that Intelligent Design is not really a scientific theory? There are many I think who would consider that an implicit critique of their beliefs (actually I have had that experience). One of issues I have run into in class is many students have only minimal contact with Darwin or Freud or some of the other really interesting, important thinkers because fear of offending belief systems. But there are real dangers to that as well. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:09 PM > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. > > Peter Smagorinsky > Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia > 315 Aderhold Hall > Athens, GA 30602 > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" > > I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. > > take care > mike > > > http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo > > -- > > > > > From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Apr 3 13:29:29 2014 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:29:29 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <911e77efb3b34802850c12555e427fc7@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: , <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16BA5C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu>, <911e77efb3b34802850c12555e427fc7@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED6AB16BAFF@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> This is a really great model Peter. Kudos! Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:37 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I can't say I have definitive answers. Because part of my job has often concerned teaching people how to teach English (literature, grammar, composition) in secondary schools, I tend not to have to get into things like evolution, though the science ed profs might have a different answer. On the other hand, I do advocate for LGBTQ students, even among a largely Southern Baptist set of students (where not only LGBTQ but postmodernism is verboten--too relativisitic. See http://rebekah1.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/the-devastating-effect-of-a-postmodern-church-part-1/ So far, no lawsuits or grievances in 24 years at Oklahoma and Georgia. Presently my teaching includes no assigned readings, and students run the classes, so whatever comes up, comes up from them. In my service-learning course (mostly sophomores), all reading is self-selected and discussed in book clubs and club-led whole-class discussions. They take on some tough ideas and material, but on their own terms, and what they discuss is pretty impressive. See http://smago.coe.uga.edu/SL/SLSyllabus.htm The other class is the operation of our grad-student-led scholarly journal, the Journal of Language and Literacy Education, where all reading is submitted manuscripts and all writing is manuscript reviews. The students also plan a conference, which tends to have an activist orientation to social justice issues--entirely their choice. http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/ One reason I run the service-learning class in this fashion is to allow them to raise and discuss the tough issues, rather than have me "lead" their thinking in professorial manner. They are far less resistant when they pick the topics and books and engage with them outside my imposition. Students always exceed my expectations when they are invested with authority with the issues, and they inevitably use that authority with respect and responsibility. Well, sorry if this comes across as braggadocio. I'm in the lobby of the plush Holiday Inn Express Hotel in Philadelphia, waiting for my room to become available for AERA. Wish you were here. p Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Glassman, Michael Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:18 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Hi Peter, You may not run into this with your subject matter but what do you do when belief systems feel threatened by the topics you actually teach. For instance should a professor teach evolution? And should that professor be willing to say that Intelligent Design is not really a scientific theory? There are many I think who would consider that an implicit critique of their beliefs (actually I have had that experience). One of issues I have run into in class is many students have only minimal contact with Darwin or Freud or some of the other really interesting, important thinkers because fear of offending belief systems. But there are real dangers to that as well. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 3:09 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Interesting, such rules have been in place in public schools forever, so I'm not as shocked as those who haven't been schoolteachers might be (14 years as a high school English teacher). I also teach in a Red State (conservative, for non-Americans) where I have to be sensitive about certain things, especially offending Christians by making implicit or explicit critiques of their beliefs--something I do conscientiously, given my respect for their belief systems. It can get tricky when religion becomes discriminatory, but I've managed to stay out of trouble, mostly. Peter Smagorinsky Distinguished Research Professor of English Education Department of Language and Literacy Education The University of Georgia 315 Aderhold Hall Athens, GA 30602 Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; communication@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. take care mike http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo -- From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 15:08:49 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:08:49 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Inimitability of Grammar Message-ID: Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the person insulting me. Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant to my work than the way that I do. I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign language (in my case, Russian). At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to complete a high school education and used the extermination of the Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and cliche ridden. Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up Jews). Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not speak German; instead, German speaks him. Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's biggest problem. Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in sentences that cannot be readily Googled. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think for themselves. B On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: > I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend our > time more usefully, Michael. > > hangin' out in southern california. > mike > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: > >> David, >> >> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >> >> Michael >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> >> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >> >> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >> >> Psycho-Educational Consultant >> >> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >> >> www.autisticvancouver.com >> >> 604.322.1019 >> >> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >> >> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg >> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> >> >> >> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be >> >> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, >> >> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >> >> >> >> Here's what I found: >> >> >> >> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >> >> >> >> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) >> >> >> >> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >> >> >> >> David Kellogg >> >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >> wrote: >> >> > Joseph >> >> > I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current >> "conversational thread." >> >> > Lois >> >> > >> >> > Lois Holzman >> >> > Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >> >> > 104-106 South Oxford Street >> >> > Brooklyn, New York 11217 >> >> > Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >> >> > Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >> >> > Fax +1.718.797.3966 >> >> > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> >> > Social Media >> >> > Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >> >> > Blogs >> >> > Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >> >> > Websites >> >> > Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >> >> > All Stars Project >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking >> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. >> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, >> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious >> beings >> to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to >> remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for >> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How >> about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current >> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus >> to >> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to >> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established >> long >> ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your >> wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your >> cohorts in an isolated i >> >> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you >> should >> be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs >> of >> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, >> using >> what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think >> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >> >> >> >> >> >> Joseph Gilbert >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >> thinkers" >> by >> >> >>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. >> The >> >> >>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so >> far >> >> >>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be >> called >> >> >>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. >> Having >> >> >>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined >> >> >>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> What do others conclude? >> >> >>> mike >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >> >> >>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >> >> >>>> ------------------------------ >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >> >> >>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >> >> >>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >> >> >>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >> >> >>>> Transcribed: Sally >> >> >>>> Ryan> >in >> >> >>>> 2000; >> >> >>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >> >> >>>> ------------------------------ >> >> >>>> London, July 14, 1893 >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* >> you >> >> >>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare >> formal >> >> >>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to >> tell >> >> >>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in >> which >> >> >>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >> unprejudiced >> >> >>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >> >> >>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >> everything >> >> >>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which >> Marx >> >> >>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered >> much >> >> >>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years >> with a >> >> >>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >> >> >>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >> >> >>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at >> present; >> >> >>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will >> be >> >> >>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx >> and I >> >> >>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which >> we >> >> >>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound >> to >> >> >>>> lay*, >> >> >>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >> political, >> >> >>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising >> through >> the >> >> >>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >> >> >>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these >> notions, >> >> >>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >> >> >>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >> >> >>>> Barth is a striking example. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >> consciously, >> >> >>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >> >> >>>> wrote: >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Martin >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >> wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Hi-- >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 >> review >> >> >>>> of >> >> >>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >> >> >>>> Marx >> >> >>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real >> objects >> >> >>>> and >> >> >>>>> activity. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> ________________________________ >> >> >>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >> >> >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >> >> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >> >> >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented >> by >> >> >>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >> >> >>>> the >> >> >>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >> >> >>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >> >> >>>>>> Andy >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >> >> >>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >> >> >>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza >> and >> >> >>>>> later >> >> >>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >> >> >>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >> >> >>>>> mainsprings >> >> >>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 16:12:01 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 08:12:01 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" In-Reply-To: <4A0FB1ED-E286-4253-A160-E9B7BDA464CA@gmail.com> References: <4A223EB3-3C75-4ACA-B899-A2DE08CCEF82@gmail.com> <4A0FB1ED-E286-4253-A160-E9B7BDA464CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think I agree with Jenna, actually. For many years I suffered from something very like PTSD in response to fireworks (this is apparently fairly common with people who have spent time in war zones). Fortunately, when people set off fireworks, they hardly ever do it without a warning, and so when I heard the warning, I just walked away (well, okay, at first I would just run away, but I did learn to walk later). I have gradually learned to walk away more slowly and not to walk so very far, and in thisi way I have slowly overcome my visceral reactions (although going back to China during spring festival is still something of a trial). But I don't think I would have been able to overcome my symptoms without the warnings, and I like to think that this too has been something of an education. I also think that the real problem in this, as in almost all debates over what the rightwingers like to call "political correctness", the underlying question being asked is whether dialogic interaction really has to be voluntary in order to be dialogic. To me, that is like asking whether civil discourse really needs to be civil David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 4 April 2014 02:30, Jenna McWilliams wrote: > I have a different opinion. I don't think it hurts anybody to be made aware that some novels and topics trigger more intense emotions in some due to past experiences of trauma. If anything, it poised us to think about the different experiences--many of these based in deep social inequities--that people bring to education and to build a pedagogy of responsiveness as a result. > > Theories of trauma are rooted in feminist theory, queer studies, disability studies, and critical race theory. Too often trauma-focused research and pedagogies of trauma and responsiveness are ignored, dismissed, or attacked because of education's grounding in rationalist (eurocentric, masculinist, heterosexist, etc.) ways of conceptualizing knowledge, education, and experience. > > My .02. > > Jenna McWilliams > Cultural-Historical Research SIG Communication Chair, AERA > Indiana University > > jennamcjenna@gmail.com > jenmcwil@indiana.edu > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:08 PM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote: >> >> College students are evidently adults. They are smart enough to curtail particular kinds of ideas by claiming personal protection from such ideas. The principle of protection can be used both ways. After this case, I would not be astonished if students start imposing restrictions on what they are thought. The whole sociocultural situation needs to be reconsidered with a fine balance among privileged ideas, individual rights, public good, etc. >> >> I have heard that the leftist organizations in the US had manuals for organized struggle. Several years ago the Tea Party activists used these manuals to craft their own versions. People are quick learners. They can take any tool and use it to their own benefit. Tools are tools. Neutral. It is the people who used them in accepted or unacceptable ways. We need to focus more on that side. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Lubomir >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Preiss >> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 12:56 PM >> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: communication@ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" >> >> This is disgusting. Aren't college students adults? They could carry a gun, drive a car and vote for president of the main military power in the world but they have to be protected from "sensitive material"? And what is that? I doubt faculty is using tenure (if they have it) to disseminate offending material... This will destroy university life. Those faculty voting that should read a bit of Philip Roth (The human stain, may be). >> David >> >> >>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:40 PM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Things Fall Apart listed as "trigger warning" >>> >>> I hope the story below does not upset you, so if you are concerned, I >>> hereby excuse you from reading it. On the other hand, if you teach at >>> an institution of higher learning, you might brave the text. >>> >>> take care >>> mike >>> >>> >>> http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-trigger-warnings-20140 >>> 331,0,6700908.story#ixzz2xkhRnkSo >>> >>> -- >> >> >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 16:27:32 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 16:27:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Cosmos and History Message-ID: I happened upon this journal today serendipitously. While some of the papers make reaches well beyond our discourse, others seem of considerable relevance. Its open access and registration is very easy. Check it out. mike http://cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 3 18:20:25 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 02:20:25 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably, there's a grammar for clumping word-chunks together too... +1 ;) On 3 April 2014 23:08, David Kellogg wrote: > Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any > explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. > But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to > be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the > person insulting me. > > Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for > myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to > baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that > sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, > particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant > to my work than the way that I do. > > I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the > interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil > is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is > that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and > he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even > though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that > rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system > of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a > shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we > do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign > language (in my case, Russian). > > At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated > German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, > confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to > complete a high school education and used the extermination of the > Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von > Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also > subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes > exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious > awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on > memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and > cliche ridden. > > Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final > Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic > responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether > people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever > towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more > lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their > job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the > "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria > (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up > Jews). > > Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says > had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would > undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of > course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a > form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not > speak German; instead, German speaks him. > > Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, > but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many > more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he > says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big > difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, > objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires > work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical > and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, > save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) > with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's > biggest problem. > > Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and > even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of > the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very > many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only > reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for > yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do > not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in > sentences that cannot be readily Googled. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Thu Apr 3 18:55:11 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 18:55:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Dear David, I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that you?ll would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant fashion. It seems either you do not understand or do not want to understand my offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with this long-time situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven forbid, insulting anyone, it?s simply about attempting to share a discovery. I assumed, long ago, that those in the academic world would be the most likely to understand what I had found. But it eventually became evident to me that the very ones who, I had assumed it would be the most fruitful to share my work with, are the most resistant to new ideas that relate to their turf. I have yet to receive a cogent or even minimally relevant response from any person in the world of academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was denied consideration of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky?s linguistics department at MIT. She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy degree from Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran counter to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that even though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically sound, the established order would not even consider her work on its merit. She is the only one of those in academia who responded intelligently to what I shared with her. She posted my writings on her website, ?Magical Letter Page? and also put it on the web so that when one searches for ?Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism? my writing comes up. I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic writings on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none that make any sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious to me that the sounds we make with our voices express what?s going on with us. The ability to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was still persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our thinking, we are left with the sounds of our words and with the persistent uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things we may talk about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, of how things work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to any conclusion as to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds themselves of our words, that serve to inform us of how we are affected by that which makes up our world. Although this informing takes place subliminally, it is all we have to go on in our quest for a sense of meaning. That is the magic of language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell of the our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has far-reaching ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. I come from a partly Jewish background and have much appreciation for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. It?s all about asking the relevant questions and not taking any wooden nickels. Joseph C. Gilbert On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any > explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. > But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to > be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the > person insulting me. > > Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for > myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to > baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that > sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, > particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant > to my work than the way that I do. > > I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the > interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil > is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is > that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and > he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even > though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that > rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system > of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a > shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we > do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign > language (in my case, Russian). > > At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated > German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, > confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to > complete a high school education and used the extermination of the > Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von > Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also > subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes > exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious > awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on > memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and > cliche ridden. > > Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final > Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic > responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether > people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever > towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more > lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their > job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the > "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria > (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up > Jews). > > Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says > had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would > undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of > course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a > form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not > speak German; instead, German speaks him. > > Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, > but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many > more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he > says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big > difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, > objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires > work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical > and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, > save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) > with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's > biggest problem. > > Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and > even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of > the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very > many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only > reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for > yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do > not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in > sentences that cannot be readily Googled. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think > for themselves. B > > On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: >> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend our >> time more usefully, Michael. >> >> hangin' out in southern california. >> mike >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: >> >>> David, >>> >>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> >>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >>> >>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >>> >>> Psycho-Educational Consultant >>> >>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >>> >>> www.autisticvancouver.com >>> >>> 604.322.1019 >>> >>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >>> >>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg >>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>> >>> >>> >>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be >>> >>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, >>> >>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >>> >>> >>> >>> Here's what I found: >>> >>> >>> >>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >>> >>> >>> >>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) >>> >>> >>> >>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >>> >>> >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Joseph >>> >>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the current >>> "conversational thread." >>> >>>> Lois >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Lois Holzman >>> >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>> >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>> >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>> >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>> >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>> >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>> >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>> >>>> Social Media >>> >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>> >>>> Blogs >>> >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>> >>>> Websites >>> >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>> >>>> All Stars Project >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and thinking >>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the past. >>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized authorities, >>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious >>> beings >>> to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to >>> remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet for >>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How >>> about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best current >>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to Jesus >>> to >>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend to >>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established >>> long >>> ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your >>> wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among your >>> cohorts in an isolated i >>> >>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you >>> should >>> be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real needs >>> of >>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, >>> using >>> what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. Think >>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Joseph Gilbert >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >>> thinkers" >>> by >>> >>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through culture. >>> The >>> >>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, so >>> far >>> >>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be >>> called >>> >>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. >>> Having >>> >>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your imagined >>> >>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> What do others conclude? >>> >>>>>> mike >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>> >>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>> >>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>> >>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>> >>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>> >>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally >>> >>>>>>> Ryan>>> in >>> >>>>>>> 2000; >>> >>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>> >>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* >>> you >>> >>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare >>> formal >>> >>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same time to >>> tell >>> >>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical materialism, in >>> which >>> >>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >>> unprejudiced >>> >>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >>> >>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >>> everything >>> >>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but which >>> Marx >>> >>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision discovered >>> much >>> >>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years >>> with a >>> >>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks one >>> >>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the lesser >>> >>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at >>> present; >>> >>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one will >>> be >>> >>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, Marx >>> and I >>> >>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to which >>> we >>> >>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were bound >>> to >>> >>>>>>> lay*, >>> >>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >>> political, >>> >>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising >>> through >>> the >>> >>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so doing we >>> >>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these >>> notions, >>> >>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >>> >>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which Paul >>> >>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >>> consciously, >>> >>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >>> wrote: >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Hi-- >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 >>> review >>> >>>>>>> of >>> >>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The idea in >>> >>>>>>> Marx >>> >>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real >>> objects >>> >>>>>>> and >>> >>>>>>>> activity. >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>> >>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>> >>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was invented >>> by >>> >>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't think >>> >>>>>>> the >>> >>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses on >>> >>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>> >>>>>>>>> Andy >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>> >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like Spinoza >>> and >>> >>>>>>>> later >>> >>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is "false" >>> >>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>> >>>>>>>> mainsprings >>> >>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Apr 4 06:32:14 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 06:32:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Postdoctoral Fellowship Opportunity at Northwestern University In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Aubry Alvarez* Date: Wednesday, April 2, 2014 Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Postdoctoral Fellowship Opportunity at Northwestern University To: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org Hello, would it be possible to circulate the following postdoctoral fellowship opportunity advertisement? A flyer containing the same information is attached. Many thanks! *** *Postdoctoral Fellowship at the Center on Media and Human Development* Department of Communication Studies School of Communication Northwestern University Northwestern University's Center on Media and Human Development, directed by Dr. Ellen Wartella, is searching for a postdoctoral fellow with a strong interest and background in educational research. Responsibilities include working with a team of graduate and undergraduate students, as well as the PI, on a range of projects. Current studies include: exploring the impact of educational DVDs on children's STEM education; content analyses of the food marketing landscape on television, Internet, video games, and mobile devices; surveys of parents' and teachers' attitudes toward and use of media technology with children; and experiments with children and childcare providers to understand media use and effects. Experience with quantitative data analysis, content analyses, qualitative research, and study design is desirable. Appointments are for one year with potential to renew for a second year. *Qualifications:* Applicants should hold a recent Ph.D. in Education, Psychology, or a closely related field. Successful applicants will have experience conducting qualitative research and/or quantitative research as well as excellent writing and communication skills. *To Apply: * Applications will be considered starting May 1, 2014. To apply, please send a curriculum vitae and statement of research interests and goals to: Alexis Lauricella at a-lauricella@northwestern.edu with subject line: Center on Media & Human Development Postdoctoral Fellowship -- Aubry Alvarez, Ph.D. Postdoctoral Fellow Center on Media and Human Development Northwestern University -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CMHD Postdoc Flyer 2014.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 237008 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140404/b2acaa8b/attachment.bin From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Apr 4 07:25:40 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:25:40 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Joseph, >From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far as I can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you are continually faced with "academic" rejection. Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- from the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. Best, Huw On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > Dear David, > I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that you'll > would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant fashion. It > seems either you do not understand or do not want to understand my > offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with this long-time > situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven forbid, insulting > anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a discovery. I assumed, long > ago, that those in the academic world would be the most likely to > understand what I had found. But it eventually became evident to me that > the very ones who, I had assumed it would be the most fruitful to share my > work with, are the most resistant to new ideas that relate to their turf. I > have yet to receive a cogent or even minimally relevant response from any > person in the world of academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was > denied consideration of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics > department at MIT. She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy > degree from Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran > counter to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no > relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that even > though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically sound, the > established order would not even consider her work on its merit. She is the > only one of those in academia who responded intelligently to what I shared > with her. She posted my writings on her website, "Magical Letter Page" and > also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert sound > symbolism" my writing comes up. > I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic writings > on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none that make any > sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious to me that the > sounds we make with our voices express what's going on with us. The ability > to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. > So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was still > persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our thinking, > we are left with the sounds of our words and with the persistent > uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things we may talk > about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, of how things > work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to any conclusion as > to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds themselves of our words, > that serve to inform us of how we are affected by that which makes up our > world. Although this informing takes place subliminally, it is all we have > to go on in our quest for a sense of meaning. That is the magic of > language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell of the > our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has far-reaching > ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. > I come from a partly Jewish background and have much appreciation > for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. > It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking any > wooden nickels. > > Joseph C. Gilbert > > On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any > > explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. > > But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to > > be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the > > person insulting me. > > > > Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for > > myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to > > baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that > > sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, > > particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant > > to my work than the way that I do. > > > > I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the > > interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil > > is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is > > that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and > > he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even > > though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that > > rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system > > of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a > > shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we > > do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign > > language (in my case, Russian). > > > > At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated > > German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, > > confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to > > complete a high school education and used the extermination of the > > Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von > > Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also > > subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes > > exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious > > awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on > > memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and > > cliche ridden. > > > > Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final > > Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic > > responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether > > people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever > > towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more > > lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their > > job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the > > "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria > > (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up > > Jews). > > > > Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says > > had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would > > undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of > > course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a > > form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not > > speak German; instead, German speaks him. > > > > Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, > > but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many > > more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he > > says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big > > difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, > > objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires > > work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical > > and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, > > save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) > > with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's > > biggest problem. > > > > Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and > > even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of > > the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very > > many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only > > reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for > > yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do > > not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in > > sentences that cannot be readily Googled. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think > > for themselves. B > > > > On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: > >> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend our > >> time more usefully, Michael. > >> > >> hangin' out in southern california. > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: > >> > >>> David, > >>> > >>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> ----------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. > >>> > >>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation > >>> > >>> Psycho-Educational Consultant > >>> > >>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach > >>> > >>> www.autisticvancouver.com > >>> > >>> 604.322.1019 > >>> > >>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication > >>> > >>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > >>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be > >>> > >>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, > >>> > >>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Here's what I found: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Joseph > >>> > >>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the > current > >>> "conversational thread." > >>> > >>>> Lois > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Lois Holzman > >>> > >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>> > >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>> > >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>> > >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>> > >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>> > >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>> > >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>> > >>>> Social Media > >>> > >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>> > >>>> Blogs > >>> > >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>> > >>>> Websites > >>> > >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>> > >>>> All Stars Project > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and > thinking > >>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the > past. > >>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized > authorities, > >>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious > >>> beings > >>> to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to > >>> remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet > for > >>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How > >>> about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best > current > >>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to > Jesus > >>> to > >>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend > to > >>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established > >>> long > >>> ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your > >>> wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among > your > >>> cohorts in an isolated i > >>> > >>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you > >>> should > >>> be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real > needs > >>> of > >>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, > >>> using > >>> what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. > Think > >>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Joseph Gilbert > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called > >>> thinkers" > >>> by > >>> > >>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through > culture. > >>> The > >>> > >>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, > so > >>> far > >>> > >>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be > >>> called > >>> > >>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. > >>> Having > >>> > >>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your > imagined > >>> > >>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> What do others conclude? > >>> > >>>>>> mike > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > >>> > >>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > >>> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > >>> > >>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > >>> > >>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > >>> > >>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; > >>> > >>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally > >>> > >>>>>>> Ryan< > http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm > >>>> in > >>> > >>>>>>> 2000; > >>> > >>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > >>> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* > >>> you > >>> > >>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare > >>> formal > >>> > >>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same > time to > >>> tell > >>> > >>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical > materialism, in > >>> which > >>> > >>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any > >>> unprejudiced > >>> > >>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you > >>> > >>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in > >>> everything > >>> > >>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but > which > >>> Marx > >>> > >>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision > discovered > >>> much > >>> > >>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years > >>> with a > >>> > >>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks > one > >>> > >>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the > lesser > >>> > >>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at > >>> present; > >>> > >>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one > will > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, > Marx > >>> and I > >>> > >>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to > which > >>> we > >>> > >>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were > bound > >>> to > >>> > >>>>>>> lay*, > >>> > >>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of > >>> political, > >>> > >>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising > >>> through > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so > doing we > >>> > >>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these > >>> notions, > >>> > >>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our > >>> > >>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which > Paul > >>> > >>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker > >>> consciously, > >>> > >>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > >>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Hi-- > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 > >>> review > >>> > >>>>>>> of > >>> > >>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The > idea in > >>> > >>>>>>> Marx > >>> > >>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real > >>> objects > >>> > >>>>>>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> activity. > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>> > >>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden > >>> > >>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic > interactionism > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was > invented > >>> by > >>> > >>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't > think > >>> > >>>>>>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses > on > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Andy > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> > >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like > Spinoza > >>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> later > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is > "false" > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > >>> > >>>>>>>> mainsprings > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Apr 4 08:02:34 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:02:34 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ignorance as a driver in science In-Reply-To: References: <533AA517.8030102@mira.net> <814BC7DD-C24F-4702-A753-71B5B06C4B8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: See also Davydov's paper, "The content and unsolved problems of activity theory", in: Perspectives on Activity Theory. Best, Huw On 1 April 2014 20:09, Huw Lloyd wrote: > In the "conclusion" of Activity, Consciousness & Personality, Leontyev > describes the problem of "interlevel transitions" as a future research > question. > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/leontev/works/1978/ch5b.htm > > Best, > Huw > > > On 1 April 2014 16:37, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> My question: >> On the scale of the "local" as well as the "global", what will it take to >> for us humans to recognize our mutuality of being? i.e., to see ourselves >> in others and others in ourselves? >> >> But then again, 10 years is far too short a timeline... >> -greg >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote: >> >> > Good luck in your inquiry, Laure. Here is my question: If an ounce of >> > prevention is worth a pound of cure, what changes in human development >> > would be required to implement practices that privilege prevention >> instead >> > of repair? >> > >> > David -- >> > >> > What is the incompatibility you see between schooling and cultural >> > learning? >> > My own take on this issue remains what it was a while back, as laid out >> in >> > the attached. >> > >> > So far as I can tell, the default answer to your question widely >> accepted >> > among both developmentalists and the public is the intense preparation >> for >> > schooling beginning as early as possible in children's lives is the only >> > way to go. More, not less, emphasis on school-as-we-know-it -- and lots >> > more of it. >> > >> > Paradoxical, isn't it? >> > mike >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:54 AM, David Preiss >> > wrote: >> > >> > > One question that matters to me relates to the impact of schooling on >> > > human development widely understood. I growingly think that schooling >> is >> > > not compatible with the natural processes of cultural learning, as >> > > described by Tomasello. The question that arises is whether we can >> come >> > up >> > > with scalable and inclusive alternatives that are informed by what we >> now >> > > know are species compatible ways of instructing and learning. >> > > David >> > > >> > > On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:02 AM, Laure Kloetzer >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > I guess How to questions are as interesting, aren't they ? >> > > > Cheers >> > > > LK >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 2014-04-01 13:37 GMT+02:00 Andy Blunden : >> > > > >> > > >> Laure, >> > > >> I have lots of questions, but they are all "how to" not "what is" >> > > >> questions. >> > > >> Andy >> > > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > >> *Andy Blunden* >> > > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> Laure Kloetzer wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >>> Dear colleagues, >> > > >>> >> > > >>> As part of an introduction course on psychology here in France, I >> > plan >> > > to >> > > >>> work with my students partly on Stuart Firestein's book on the >> value >> > of >> > > >>> Ignorance to drive scientific research. I would like to ask you a >> > > related >> > > >>> question. Would you accept to share with the community here your >> > > answers >> > > >>> to >> > > >>> the following question: >> > > >>> >> > > >>> Which are the unsolved psychological questions on which you would >> > > dream to >> > > >>> get an answer in the next ten years ? >> > > >>> >> > > >>> I plan to ask the same question to the COGDEV online community >> > > (cognition >> > > >>> and development). >> > > >>> >> > > >>> The goal would be (a) to show the students that there are a lot of >> > > things >> > > >>> that we don't know yet, (b) that this "ignorance" is exciting, and >> > (c) >> > > to >> > > >>> compare how different researchers / fields frame the field of >> > > ignorance, >> > > >>> (d) to relate these current psychological questions to our life >> and >> > > world. >> > > >>> I guess my perspective is to wonder how we may open alternatives >> to >> > an >> > > >>> accumulative model of science, which prevents the students from >> > > engaging >> > > >>> truly in exploration, as they believe they don't know the basics >> > > (which is >> > > >>> also true. They also need to understand the basics, but not to be >> > > crushed >> > > >>> under them). >> > > >>> >> > > >>> What do you think of this ? What would your unsolved psychological >> > > >>> questions be ? >> > > >>> Thanks for your help, >> > > >>> Best, >> > > >>> LK >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 08:09:45 2014 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:09:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013EC063@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> There has been a considerable amount of work done on cross-cultural patterns in sound symbolism and on cross-modal associations (e.g. between certain vowel sounds and visually perceived size differences). It is not surprising that we perceive the differences in 'mouth shape' between 'large' sounds and 'teeny weeny' ones and associate this with words which reference amplitude (brightness and smoothness as well as size). Some examples: Bremner, A, Caparos, S, Davidoff, J, de Fockert, J, Linnell, K and Spence, C (2013) "Bouba" and "Kiki" in Namibia? A remote culture make similar shape-sound matches, but different shape-taste matches to Westerners. Cognition 126 (2) 165-172. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027712002077 Davis, R (2011) The fitness of names to drawings. A cross-cultural study in Tanganyika. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1961.tb00788.x/abstract Taylor, I. And Taylor, M.(1965) Another look at phonetic symbolism.Psychological Bulletin, Vol 64(6), Dec 1965, 413-427. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/64/6/413/ All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd Sent: 04 April 2014 15:26 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar Joseph, >From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far >as I can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you are continually faced with "academic" rejection. Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- from the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. Best, Huw On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > Dear David, > I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that > you'll would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant > fashion. It seems either you do not understand or do not want to > understand my offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with > this long-time situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven > forbid, insulting anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a > discovery. I assumed, long ago, that those in the academic world would > be the most likely to understand what I had found. But it eventually > became evident to me that the very ones who, I had assumed it would be > the most fruitful to share my work with, are the most resistant to new > ideas that relate to their turf. I have yet to receive a cogent or > even minimally relevant response from any person in the world of > academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was denied consideration > of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics department at MIT. > She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy degree from > Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran counter > to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no > relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that > even though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically > sound, the established order would not even consider her work on its > merit. She is the only one of those in academia who responded > intelligently to what I shared with her. She posted my writings on her > website, "Magical Letter Page" and also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism" my writing comes up. > I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic > writings on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none > that make any sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious > to me that the sounds we make with our voices express what's going on > with us. The ability to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. > So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was > still persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our > thinking, we are left with the sounds of our words and with the > persistent uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things > we may talk about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, > of how things work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to > any conclusion as to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds > themselves of our words, that serve to inform us of how we are > affected by that which makes up our world. Although this informing > takes place subliminally, it is all we have to go on in our quest for > a sense of meaning. That is the magic of > language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell > of the our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has > far-reaching ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. > I come from a partly Jewish background and have much > appreciation for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. > It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking > any wooden nickels. > > Joseph C. Gilbert > > On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > > > Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without > > any explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. > > But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations > > to be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the > > person insulting me. > > > > Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for > > myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing > > to baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that > > sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky > > did, particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and > > relevant to my work than the way that I do. > > > > I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of > > the interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea > > that evil is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely > > profound is that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German > > language, and he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks > > English, even though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What > > Arendt means that rather than consciously and deliberately master > > the intricate system of German articles and case endings and > > genders, Eichmann takes a shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and > > uses them whole, the way we do when we are speaking or trying to > > write a very complex foreign language (in my case, Russian). > > > > At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated > > German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, > > confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed > > to complete a high school education and used the extermination of > > the Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von > > Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also > > subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes > > exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious > > awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on > > memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless > > and cliche ridden. > > > > Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final > > Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic > > responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether > > people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever > > towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more > > lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their > > job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that > > the "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or > > Bulgaria (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to > > round up Jews). > > > > Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says > > had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would > > undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of > > course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely > > a form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not > > speak German; instead, German speaks him. > > > > Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires > > work, but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are > > many more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and > > when he says this, what he is really showing us--almost > > perfectly--is the big difference between the way we mediate reality > > and the way reality, objectively, really is). In the same way, being > > grammatical requires work, because there are infinitely many ways of > > being ungrammatical and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. > > We can, of course, save work by replacing one psychological function > > (grammaticality) with another (memory), but when we do this run up > > against Arendt's biggest problem. > > > > Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and > > even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of > > the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very > > many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only > > reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for > > yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do > > not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them > > in sentences that cannot be readily Googled. > > > > David Kellogg > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > > > > > simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think > > for themselves. B > > > > On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: > >> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend > >> our time more usefully, Michael. > >> > >> hangin' out in southern california. > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: > >> > >>> David, > >>> > >>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> ----------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. > >>> > >>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation > >>> > >>> Psycho-Educational Consultant > >>> > >>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach > >>> > >>> www.autisticvancouver.com > >>> > >>> 604.322.1019 > >>> > >>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication > >>> > >>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David > >>> Kellogg > >>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM > >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic > >>> interactionism > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" > >>> "Be > >>> > >>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, > >>> > >>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Here's what I found: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Joseph > >>> > >>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the > current > >>> "conversational thread." > >>> > >>>> Lois > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Lois Holzman > >>> > >>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term > >>>> Psychotherapy > >>> > >>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>> > >>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>> > >>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>> > >>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>> > >>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>> > >>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>> > >>>> Social Media > >>> > >>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>> > >>>> Blogs > >>> > >>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>> > >>>> Websites > >>> > >>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>> > >>>> All Stars Project > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert > >>>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and > thinking > >>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of > >>> the > past. > >>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized > authorities, > >>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, > >>> conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are > >>> yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like > >>> to have a peaceful planet > for > >>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve > >>> that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based > >>> upon our best > current > >>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward > >>> to > Jesus > >>> to > >>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state > >>> tend > to > >>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises > >>> established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish > >>> something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly > >>> engaging in "small talk" among > your > >>> cohorts in an isolated i > >>> > >>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems > >>> you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves > >>> while the real > needs > >>> of > >>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from > >>> there, using what you really believe to be true as your > >>> navigational instruments. > Think > >>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Joseph Gilbert > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called > >>> thinkers" > >>> by > >>> > >>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through > culture. > >>> The > >>> > >>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of > >>>>>> humans, > so > >>> far > >>> > >>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that > >>>>>> might be > >>> called > >>> > >>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. > >>> Having > >>> > >>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your > imagined > >>> > >>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> What do others conclude? > >>> > >>>>>> mike > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > >>> > >>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > >>> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > >>> > >>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > >>> > >>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > >>> > >>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; > >>> > >>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally > >>> > >>>>>>> Ryan< > http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm > >>>> in > >>> > >>>>>>> 2000; > >>> > >>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > >>> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing > >>>>>>> Legend* > >>> you > >>> > >>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a > >>>>>>> bare > >>> formal > >>> > >>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same > time to > >>> tell > >>> > >>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical > materialism, in > >>> which > >>> > >>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any > >>> unprejudiced > >>> > >>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is > >>>>>>> that you > >>> > >>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in > >>> everything > >>> > >>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - > >>>>>>> but > which > >>> Marx > >>> > >>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision > discovered > >>> much > >>> > >>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty > >>>>>>> years > >>> with a > >>> > >>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one > >>>>>>> thinks > one > >>> > >>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, > >>>>>>> the > lesser > >>> > >>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case > >>>>>>> at > >>> present; > >>> > >>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time > >>>>>>> one > will > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, > >>>>>>> however, > Marx > >>> and I > >>> > >>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard > >>>>>>> to > which > >>> we > >>> > >>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were > bound > >>> to > >>> > >>>>>>> lay*, > >>> > >>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of > >>> political, > >>> > >>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions > >>>>>>> arising > >>> through > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so > doing we > >>> > >>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these > >>> notions, > >>> > >>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has > >>>>>>> given our > >>> > >>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of > >>>>>>> which > Paul > >>> > >>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker > >>> consciously, > >>> > >>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > >>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams > >>>>>>>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Hi-- > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a > >>>>>>>>> 1930 > >>> review > >>> > >>>>>>> of > >>> > >>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The > idea in > >>> > >>>>>>> Marx > >>> > >>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from > >>>>>>>> real > >>> objects > >>> > >>>>>>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> activity. > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.ht > m > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>> > >>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden > >>> > >>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic > interactionism > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was > invented > >>> by > >>> > >>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I > >>>>>>>>> don't > think > >>> > >>>>>>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the > >>>>>>>>> Theses > on > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Andy > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >>> > >>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>> > >>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like > Spinoza > >>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> later > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is > "false" > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the > >>>>>>>>>> true > >>> > >>>>>>>> mainsprings > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Fri Apr 4 09:07:04 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:07:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Dear Huw, I have presented plenty to think about. I have gotten no responsive reply. My ?interest? is not a belief; it is an observation, a discovery, as plain as day to me. I discovered it BY inquiring. Once something is found, one no longer searches for it. Regarding logic; i would like to receive some logical responses to what I say. So far, I have not. Why is that? What is your logical response? This brings to mind a situation that happened when I was in middle school. During volley-ball I developed a serve that none could/would return. I did not develop it for that purpose, it just turned out that way. I would hit the ball from below and it would soar high over the court and then gracefully descend right in the middle of the other side. It was not a fast-ball. I guess it was the unusualness of it that befuddled the players. They just didm.t seem to be able to ?get? it. Please check out some of my writings which can be accessed by searching for ?Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism?. Once I saw and understood the landscape of vocal/verbal communication, there was no need for more research. I saw how the vibratory state of the speaker is transferred to the hearer along with the emotional feeling associated with that state. That was a major revelation. Look at phonograph records: The shape of the ripples within the grooves correlates to specific sounds and the specific sounds correlate to universal emotional reactions. So, there is a correlation between the shape of what is read by a stylus, sound waves imparted into the air and the experience of certain emotional states by a listener. That shape can be utilized as a storage medium for sound sheds light on human vocal communication. Rather than presenting me with suggestions of unnecessary and irrelevant roadblocks why not try to understand what I have already shown? Did you understand it? Did it make sense? Did it not make sense? If not, why not? Why do youall not present me with any rational/logical come-back? Is it that you do not want to embarrass me with your ?learned? perspectives? Is it that you have no time for ?meaningless chatter?? Or is it that you are unwilling to consider something simply and perhaps take a controversial stand? It seems this is still the Wild West and you are like the sheriff who seeks to maintain the status quo. ?There?ll be none of those new-fangled ideas around hear, not as long as I?m in charge?. Research can be a distraction from the obvious. An experiment was done with monkeys to determine whether babies prefer a bare wire ?mother? or a soft and cuddly ?mother?. Research can be done forever without ever necessitating one to take a stand. And research is never conclusive. There is always more that can be done. Let us discuss without prejudice, what is already evident. If one is truly hungry for understanding, one will not insist on unnecessary research, but will actually apply what is available now. The more I see of the establishment, the sadder does the picture become. There is not one sector of society that does not exhibit the theme of the whole. Like fractals. I identified with my quest and not with some hierarchy of established authority. What makes sense, makes sense. I would like to be received on that basis rather than with some non-responsive put-down. ?Go off and do more research?, is not responsive. The problem seems to be a genuine lack of interest and a hostility to controversy. Astonishing! Who would have guessed? I used to hold high esteem for professorial folk. That was an ideal, my ideal, and evidently not representative of what is really happening. How could I have been so naive?! Can?t you say some thing in response to what I have presented you with regarding my original reason for contributing my work to this forum? That the sounds of our voice communicate meaning is not obscure or hidden. It is obvious to everyone except, it seems to some who understand its implications and shy away from that conclusion. Joseph C. Gilbert On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:25 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Joseph, > >> From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far as I > can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your > interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not > admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you are > continually faced with "academic" rejection. > > Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such > as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? > Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of > behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of > norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? > > If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your > interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- from > the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > >> Dear David, >> I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that you'll >> would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant fashion. It >> seems either you do not understand or do not want to understand my >> offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with this long-time >> situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven forbid, insulting >> anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a discovery. I assumed, long >> ago, that those in the academic world would be the most likely to >> understand what I had found. But it eventually became evident to me that >> the very ones who, I had assumed it would be the most fruitful to share my >> work with, are the most resistant to new ideas that relate to their turf. I >> have yet to receive a cogent or even minimally relevant response from any >> person in the world of academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was >> denied consideration of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics >> department at MIT. She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy >> degree from Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran >> counter to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no >> relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that even >> though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically sound, the >> established order would not even consider her work on its merit. She is the >> only one of those in academia who responded intelligently to what I shared >> with her. She posted my writings on her website, "Magical Letter Page" and >> also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert sound >> symbolism" my writing comes up. >> I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic writings >> on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none that make any >> sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious to me that the >> sounds we make with our voices express what's going on with us. The ability >> to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. >> So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was still >> persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our thinking, >> we are left with the sounds of our words and with the persistent >> uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things we may talk >> about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, of how things >> work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to any conclusion as >> to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds themselves of our words, >> that serve to inform us of how we are affected by that which makes up our >> world. Although this informing takes place subliminally, it is all we have >> to go on in our quest for a sense of meaning. That is the magic of >> language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell of the >> our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has far-reaching >> ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. >> I come from a partly Jewish background and have much appreciation >> for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. >> It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking any >> wooden nickels. >> >> Joseph C. Gilbert >> >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any >>> explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. >>> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to >>> be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the >>> person insulting me. >>> >>> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for >>> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to >>> baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that >>> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, >>> particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant >>> to my work than the way that I do. >>> >>> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the >>> interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil >>> is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is >>> that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and >>> he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even >>> though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that >>> rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system >>> of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a >>> shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we >>> do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign >>> language (in my case, Russian). >>> >>> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated >>> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, >>> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to >>> complete a high school education and used the extermination of the >>> Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von >>> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also >>> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes >>> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious >>> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on >>> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and >>> cliche ridden. >>> >>> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final >>> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic >>> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether >>> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever >>> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more >>> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their >>> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the >>> "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria >>> (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up >>> Jews). >>> >>> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says >>> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would >>> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of >>> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a >>> form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not >>> speak German; instead, German speaks him. >>> >>> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, >>> but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many >>> more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he >>> says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big >>> difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, >>> objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires >>> work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical >>> and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, >>> save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) >>> with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's >>> biggest problem. >>> >>> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and >>> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of >>> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very >>> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only >>> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for >>> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do >>> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in >>> sentences that cannot be readily Googled. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think >>> for themselves. B >>> >>> On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: >>>> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend our >>>> time more usefully, Michael. >>>> >>>> hangin' out in southern california. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> >>>>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >>>>> >>>>> Psycho-Educational Consultant >>>>> >>>>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >>>>> >>>>> www.autisticvancouver.com >>>>> >>>>> 604.322.1019 >>>>> >>>>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >>>>> >>>>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg >>>>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be >>>>> >>>>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, >>>>> >>>>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here's what I found: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the >> current >>>>> "conversational thread." >>>>> >>>>>> Lois >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>> >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>> >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>> >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>> >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>> >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>> >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>> >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>> >>>>>> Social Media >>>>> >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>> >>>>>> Blogs >>>>> >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>> >>>>>> Websites >>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>> >>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and >> thinking >>>>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the >> past. >>>>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized >> authorities, >>>>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious >>>>> beings >>>>> to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish to >>>>> remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet >> for >>>>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? How >>>>> about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best >> current >>>>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to >> Jesus >>>>> to >>>>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend >> to >>>>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises established >>>>> long >>>>> ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with your >>>>> wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among >> your >>>>> cohorts in an isolated i >>>>> >>>>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you >>>>> should >>>>> be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real >> needs >>>>> of >>>>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from there, >>>>> using >>>>> what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. >> Think >>>>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >>>>> thinkers" >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through >> culture. >>>>> The >>>>> >>>>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of humans, >> so >>>>> far >>>>> >>>>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might be >>>>> called >>>>> >>>>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. >>>>> Having >>>>> >>>>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your >> imagined >>>>> >>>>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> What do others conclude? >>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>>> >>>>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ryan< >> http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm >>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2000; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing Legend* >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare >>>>> formal >>>>> >>>>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same >> time to >>>>> tell >>>>> >>>>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical >> materialism, in >>>>> which >>>>> >>>>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >>>>> unprejudiced >>>>> >>>>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that you >>>>> >>>>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >>>>> everything >>>>> >>>>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but >> which >>>>> Marx >>>>> >>>>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision >> discovered >>>>> much >>>>> >>>>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty years >>>>> with a >>>>> >>>>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one thinks >> one >>>>> >>>>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the >> lesser >>>>> >>>>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at >>>>> present; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one >> will >>>>> be >>>>> >>>>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, >> Marx >>>>> and I >>>>> >>>>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to >> which >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were >> bound >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> lay*, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >>>>> political, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising >>>>> through >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so >> doing we >>>>> >>>>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these >>>>> notions, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given our >>>>> >>>>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which >> Paul >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >>>>> consciously, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi-- >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 >>>>> review >>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The >> idea in >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real >>>>> objects >>>>> >>>>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> activity. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >> interactionism >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was >> invented >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't >> think >>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the Theses >> on >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like >> Spinoza >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> later >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is >> "false" >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mainsprings >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Apr 4 10:06:19 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 17:06:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <33AFA187-66AA-4251-9385-C0C83DFC18E2@uniandes.edu.co> Joseph, No, the experiment was done to determine whether babies prefer a source of milk, or a source of tactile comfort. Not such an obvious matter. Martin On Apr 4, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > Research can be a distraction from the obvious. An experiment was done with monkeys to determine whether babies prefer a bare wire ?mother? or a soft and cuddly ?mother?. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Apr 4 10:07:24 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:07:24 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: That's all from me, Joseph. If my surmising is correct, you have my sympathies. Best, Huw On 4 April 2014 17:07, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > Dear Huw, > I have presented plenty to think about. I have gotten no responsive reply. > My "interest" is not a belief; it is an observation, a discovery, as plain > as day to me. I discovered it BY inquiring. Once something is found, one no > longer searches for it. Regarding logic; i would like to receive some > logical responses to what I say. So far, I have not. Why is that? What is > your logical response? This brings to mind a situation that happened when I > was in middle school. During volley-ball I developed a serve that none > could/would return. I did not develop it for that purpose, it just turned > out that way. I would hit the ball from below and it would soar high over > the court and then gracefully descend right in the middle of the other > side. It was not a fast-ball. I guess it was the unusualness of it that > befuddled the players. They just didm.t seem to be able to "get" it. > Please check out some of my writings which can be accessed by > searching for "Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism". Once I saw and understood > the landscape of vocal/verbal communication, there was no need for more > research. I saw how the vibratory state of the speaker is transferred to > the hearer along with the emotional feeling associated with that state. > That was a major revelation. Look at phonograph records: The shape of the > ripples within the grooves correlates to specific sounds and the specific > sounds correlate to universal emotional reactions. So, there is a > correlation between the shape of what is read by a stylus, sound waves > imparted into the air and the experience of certain emotional states by a > listener. That shape can be utilized as a storage medium for sound sheds > light on human vocal communication. > Rather than presenting me with suggestions of unnecessary and > irrelevant roadblocks why not try to understand what I have already shown? > Did you understand it? Did it make sense? Did it not make sense? If not, > why not? Why do youall not present me with any rational/logical come-back? > Is it that you do not want to embarrass me with your "learned" > perspectives? Is it that you have no time for "meaningless chatter"? Or is > it that you are unwilling to consider something simply and perhaps take a > controversial stand? It seems this is still the Wild West and you are like > the sheriff who seeks to maintain the status quo. "There'll be none of > those new-fangled ideas around hear, not as long as I'm in charge". > Research can be a distraction from the obvious. An experiment was > done with monkeys to determine whether babies prefer a bare wire "mother" > or a soft and cuddly "mother". Research can be done forever without ever > necessitating one to take a stand. And research is never conclusive. There > is always more that can be done. Let us discuss without prejudice, what is > already evident. If one is truly hungry for understanding, one will not > insist on unnecessary research, but will actually apply what is available > now. The more I see of the establishment, the sadder does the picture > become. There is not one sector of society that does not exhibit the theme > of the whole. Like fractals. > I identified with my quest and not with some hierarchy of > established authority. What makes sense, makes sense. I would like to be > received on that basis rather than with some non-responsive put-down. "Go > off and do more research", is not responsive. The problem seems to be a > genuine lack of interest and a hostility to controversy. Astonishing! Who > would have guessed? I used to hold high esteem for professorial folk. That > was an ideal, my ideal, and evidently not representative of what is really > happening. How could I have been so naive?! > Can't you say some thing in response to what I have presented you > with regarding my original reason for contributing my work to this forum? > That the sounds of our voice communicate meaning is not obscure or hidden. > It is obvious to everyone except, it seems to some who understand its > implications and shy away from that conclusion. > > Joseph C. Gilbert > > On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:25 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > Joseph, > > > >> From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far > as I > > can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your > > interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not > > admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you > are > > continually faced with "academic" rejection. > > > > Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such > > as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? > > Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of > > behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of > > norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? > > > > If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your > > interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- > from > > the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > > > >> Dear David, > >> I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that you'll > >> would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant fashion. > It > >> seems either you do not understand or do not want to understand my > >> offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with this long-time > >> situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven forbid, insulting > >> anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a discovery. I assumed, > long > >> ago, that those in the academic world would be the most likely to > >> understand what I had found. But it eventually became evident to me that > >> the very ones who, I had assumed it would be the most fruitful to share > my > >> work with, are the most resistant to new ideas that relate to their > turf. I > >> have yet to receive a cogent or even minimally relevant response from > any > >> person in the world of academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was > >> denied consideration of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics > >> department at MIT. She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy > >> degree from Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran > >> counter to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no > >> relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that even > >> though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically sound, > the > >> established order would not even consider her work on its merit. She is > the > >> only one of those in academia who responded intelligently to what I > shared > >> with her. She posted my writings on her website, "Magical Letter Page" > and > >> also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert > sound > >> symbolism" my writing comes up. > >> I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic > writings > >> on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none that make any > >> sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious to me that the > >> sounds we make with our voices express what's going on with us. The > ability > >> to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. > >> So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was > still > >> persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our > thinking, > >> we are left with the sounds of our words and with the persistent > >> uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things we may talk > >> about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, of how things > >> work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to any conclusion > as > >> to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds themselves of our words, > >> that serve to inform us of how we are affected by that which makes up > our > >> world. Although this informing takes place subliminally, it is all we > have > >> to go on in our quest for a sense of meaning. That is the magic of > >> language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell of > the > >> our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has far-reaching > >> ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. > >> I come from a partly Jewish background and have much appreciation > >> for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. > >> It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking any > >> wooden nickels. > >> > >> Joseph C. Gilbert > >> > >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> > >>> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any > >>> explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. > >>> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to > >>> be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the > >>> person insulting me. > >>> > >>> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for > >>> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to > >>> baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that > >>> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, > >>> particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant > >>> to my work than the way that I do. > >>> > >>> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the > >>> interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil > >>> is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is > >>> that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and > >>> he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even > >>> though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that > >>> rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system > >>> of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a > >>> shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we > >>> do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign > >>> language (in my case, Russian). > >>> > >>> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated > >>> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, > >>> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to > >>> complete a high school education and used the extermination of the > >>> Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von > >>> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also > >>> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes > >>> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious > >>> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on > >>> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and > >>> cliche ridden. > >>> > >>> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final > >>> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic > >>> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether > >>> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever > >>> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more > >>> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their > >>> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the > >>> "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria > >>> (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up > >>> Jews). > >>> > >>> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says > >>> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would > >>> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of > >>> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a > >>> form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not > >>> speak German; instead, German speaks him. > >>> > >>> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, > >>> but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many > >>> more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he > >>> says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big > >>> difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, > >>> objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires > >>> work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical > >>> and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, > >>> save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) > >>> with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's > >>> biggest problem. > >>> > >>> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and > >>> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of > >>> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very > >>> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only > >>> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for > >>> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do > >>> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in > >>> sentences that cannot be readily Googled. > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think > >>> for themselves. B > >>> > >>> On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: > >>>> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend > our > >>>> time more usefully, Michael. > >>>> > >>>> hangin' out in southern california. > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> David, > >>>>> > >>>>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? > >>>>> > >>>>> Michael > >>>>> > >>>>> ----------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. > >>>>> > >>>>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation > >>>>> > >>>>> Psycho-Educational Consultant > >>>>> > >>>>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach > >>>>> > >>>>> www.autisticvancouver.com > >>>>> > >>>>> 604.322.1019 > >>>>> > >>>>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication > >>>>> > >>>>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg > >>>>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be > >>>>> > >>>>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, > >>>>> > >>>>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Here's what I found: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> David Kellogg > >>>>> > >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Joseph > >>>>> > >>>>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the > >> current > >>>>> "conversational thread." > >>>>> > >>>>>> Lois > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Lois Holzman > >>>>> > >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy > >>>>> > >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street > >>>>> > >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 > >>>>> > >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX > >>>>> > >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 > >>>>> > >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 > >>>>> > >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > >>>>> > >>>>>> Social Media > >>>>> > >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter > >>>>> > >>>>>> Blogs > >>>>> > >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News > >>>>> > >>>>>> Websites > >>>>> > >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World > >>>>> > >>>>>> All Stars Project > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and > >> thinking > >>>>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the > >> past. > >>>>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized > >> authorities, > >>>>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious > >>>>> beings > >>>>> to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish > to > >>>>> remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet > >> for > >>>>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? > How > >>>>> about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best > >> current > >>>>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to > >> Jesus > >>>>> to > >>>>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend > >> to > >>>>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises > established > >>>>> long > >>>>> ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with > your > >>>>> wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among > >> your > >>>>> cohorts in an isolated i > >>>>> > >>>>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you > >>>>> should > >>>>> be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real > >> needs > >>>>> of > >>>>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from > there, > >>>>> using > >>>>> what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. > >> Think > >>>>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called > >>>>> thinkers" > >>>>> by > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through > >> culture. > >>>>> The > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of > humans, > >> so > >>>>> far > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might > be > >>>>> called > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. > >>>>> Having > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your > >> imagined > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> What do others conclude? > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Ryan< > >> http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm > >>>>>> in > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 2000; > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing > Legend* > >>>>> you > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare > >>>>> formal > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same > >> time to > >>>>> tell > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical > >> materialism, in > >>>>> which > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any > >>>>> unprejudiced > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that > you > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in > >>>>> everything > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but > >> which > >>>>> Marx > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision > >> discovered > >>>>> much > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty > years > >>>>> with a > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one > thinks > >> one > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the > >> lesser > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at > >>>>> present; > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one > >> will > >>>>> be > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, > >> Marx > >>>>> and I > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to > >> which > >>>>> we > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were > >> bound > >>>>> to > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> lay*, > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of > >>>>> political, > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising > >>>>> through > >>>>> the > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so > >> doing we > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these > >>>>> notions, > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given > our > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which > >> Paul > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker > >>>>> consciously, > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi-- > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 > >>>>> review > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> of > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The > >> idea in > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Marx > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real > >>>>> objects > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> and > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> activity. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic > >> interactionism > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was > >> invented > >>>>> by > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't > >> think > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the > Theses > >> on > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Andy > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like > >> Spinoza > >>>>> and > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> later > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is > >> "false" > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> mainsprings > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Fri Apr 4 10:19:11 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 10:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <62DA893B-FB24-4AFB-8C78-BDB133AF75B2@roadrunner.com> Martin, Right, I remember that. Huw, Thanks for the consideration. Joseph On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > That's all from me, Joseph. If my surmising is correct, you have my > sympathies. > > Best, > Huw > > > On 4 April 2014 17:07, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > >> Dear Huw, >> I have presented plenty to think about. I have gotten no responsive reply. >> My "interest" is not a belief; it is an observation, a discovery, as plain >> as day to me. I discovered it BY inquiring. Once something is found, one no >> longer searches for it. Regarding logic; i would like to receive some >> logical responses to what I say. So far, I have not. Why is that? What is >> your logical response? This brings to mind a situation that happened when I >> was in middle school. During volley-ball I developed a serve that none >> could/would return. I did not develop it for that purpose, it just turned >> out that way. I would hit the ball from below and it would soar high over >> the court and then gracefully descend right in the middle of the other >> side. It was not a fast-ball. I guess it was the unusualness of it that >> befuddled the players. They just didm.t seem to be able to "get" it. >> Please check out some of my writings which can be accessed by >> searching for "Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism". Once I saw and understood >> the landscape of vocal/verbal communication, there was no need for more >> research. I saw how the vibratory state of the speaker is transferred to >> the hearer along with the emotional feeling associated with that state. >> That was a major revelation. Look at phonograph records: The shape of the >> ripples within the grooves correlates to specific sounds and the specific >> sounds correlate to universal emotional reactions. So, there is a >> correlation between the shape of what is read by a stylus, sound waves >> imparted into the air and the experience of certain emotional states by a >> listener. That shape can be utilized as a storage medium for sound sheds >> light on human vocal communication. >> Rather than presenting me with suggestions of unnecessary and >> irrelevant roadblocks why not try to understand what I have already shown? >> Did you understand it? Did it make sense? Did it not make sense? If not, >> why not? Why do youall not present me with any rational/logical come-back? >> Is it that you do not want to embarrass me with your "learned" >> perspectives? Is it that you have no time for "meaningless chatter"? Or is >> it that you are unwilling to consider something simply and perhaps take a >> controversial stand? It seems this is still the Wild West and you are like >> the sheriff who seeks to maintain the status quo. "There'll be none of >> those new-fangled ideas around hear, not as long as I'm in charge". >> Research can be a distraction from the obvious. An experiment was >> done with monkeys to determine whether babies prefer a bare wire "mother" >> or a soft and cuddly "mother". Research can be done forever without ever >> necessitating one to take a stand. And research is never conclusive. There >> is always more that can be done. Let us discuss without prejudice, what is >> already evident. If one is truly hungry for understanding, one will not >> insist on unnecessary research, but will actually apply what is available >> now. The more I see of the establishment, the sadder does the picture >> become. There is not one sector of society that does not exhibit the theme >> of the whole. Like fractals. >> I identified with my quest and not with some hierarchy of >> established authority. What makes sense, makes sense. I would like to be >> received on that basis rather than with some non-responsive put-down. "Go >> off and do more research", is not responsive. The problem seems to be a >> genuine lack of interest and a hostility to controversy. Astonishing! Who >> would have guessed? I used to hold high esteem for professorial folk. That >> was an ideal, my ideal, and evidently not representative of what is really >> happening. How could I have been so naive?! >> Can't you say some thing in response to what I have presented you >> with regarding my original reason for contributing my work to this forum? >> That the sounds of our voice communicate meaning is not obscure or hidden. >> It is obvious to everyone except, it seems to some who understand its >> implications and shy away from that conclusion. >> >> Joseph C. Gilbert >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 7:25 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> Joseph, >>> >>>> From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far >> as I >>> can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your >>> interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not >>> admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you >> are >>> continually faced with "academic" rejection. >>> >>> Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such >>> as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? >>> Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of >>> behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of >>> norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? >>> >>> If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your >>> interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- >> from >>> the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: >>> >>>> Dear David, >>>> I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that you'll >>>> would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant fashion. >> It >>>> seems either you do not understand or do not want to understand my >>>> offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with this long-time >>>> situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven forbid, insulting >>>> anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a discovery. I assumed, >> long >>>> ago, that those in the academic world would be the most likely to >>>> understand what I had found. But it eventually became evident to me that >>>> the very ones who, I had assumed it would be the most fruitful to share >> my >>>> work with, are the most resistant to new ideas that relate to their >> turf. I >>>> have yet to receive a cogent or even minimally relevant response from >> any >>>> person in the world of academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was >>>> denied consideration of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics >>>> department at MIT. She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy >>>> degree from Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran >>>> counter to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no >>>> relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that even >>>> though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically sound, >> the >>>> established order would not even consider her work on its merit. She is >> the >>>> only one of those in academia who responded intelligently to what I >> shared >>>> with her. She posted my writings on her website, "Magical Letter Page" >> and >>>> also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert >> sound >>>> symbolism" my writing comes up. >>>> I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic >> writings >>>> on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none that make any >>>> sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious to me that the >>>> sounds we make with our voices express what's going on with us. The >> ability >>>> to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. >>>> So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was >> still >>>> persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our >> thinking, >>>> we are left with the sounds of our words and with the persistent >>>> uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things we may talk >>>> about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, of how things >>>> work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to any conclusion >> as >>>> to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds themselves of our words, >>>> that serve to inform us of how we are affected by that which makes up >> our >>>> world. Although this informing takes place subliminally, it is all we >> have >>>> to go on in our quest for a sense of meaning. That is the magic of >>>> language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell of >> the >>>> our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has far-reaching >>>> ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. >>>> I come from a partly Jewish background and have much appreciation >>>> for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. >>>> It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking any >>>> wooden nickels. >>>> >>>> Joseph C. Gilbert >>>> >>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any >>>>> explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. >>>>> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to >>>>> be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the >>>>> person insulting me. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for >>>>> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to >>>>> baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that >>>>> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, >>>>> particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant >>>>> to my work than the way that I do. >>>>> >>>>> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the >>>>> interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil >>>>> is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is >>>>> that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and >>>>> he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even >>>>> though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that >>>>> rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system >>>>> of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a >>>>> shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we >>>>> do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign >>>>> language (in my case, Russian). >>>>> >>>>> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated >>>>> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, >>>>> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to >>>>> complete a high school education and used the extermination of the >>>>> Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von >>>>> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also >>>>> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes >>>>> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious >>>>> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on >>>>> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and >>>>> cliche ridden. >>>>> >>>>> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final >>>>> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic >>>>> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether >>>>> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever >>>>> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more >>>>> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their >>>>> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the >>>>> "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria >>>>> (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up >>>>> Jews). >>>>> >>>>> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says >>>>> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would >>>>> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of >>>>> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a >>>>> form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not >>>>> speak German; instead, German speaks him. >>>>> >>>>> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, >>>>> but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many >>>>> more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he >>>>> says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big >>>>> difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, >>>>> objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires >>>>> work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical >>>>> and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, >>>>> save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) >>>>> with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's >>>>> biggest problem. >>>>> >>>>> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and >>>>> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of >>>>> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very >>>>> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only >>>>> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for >>>>> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do >>>>> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in >>>>> sentences that cannot be readily Googled. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think >>>>> for themselves. B >>>>> >>>>> On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend >> our >>>>>> time more usefully, Michael. >>>>>> >>>>>> hangin' out in southern california. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> David, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Psycho-Educational Consultant >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.autisticvancouver.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 604.322.1019 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg >>>>>>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" "Be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's what I found: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the >>>> current >>>>>>> "conversational thread." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term Psychotherapy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and >>>> thinking >>>>>>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of the >>>> past. >>>>>>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized >>>> authorities, >>>>>>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, conscious >>>>>>> beings >>>>>>> to have their own wonderings/questions. What are yours? Do you wish >> to >>>>>>> remake the world in any way? Would you like to have a peaceful planet >>>> for >>>>>>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve that? >> How >>>>>>> about a new perception, an updated world-view, based upon our best >>>> current >>>>>>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward to >>>> Jesus >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state tend >>>> to >>>>>>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises >> established >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> ago. Please break free and really accomplish something useful with >> your >>>>>>> wealth of knowledge rather than mostly engaging in "small talk" among >>>> your >>>>>>> cohorts in an isolated i >>>>>>> >>>>>>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems you >>>>>>> should >>>>>>> be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves while the real >>>> needs >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from >> there, >>>>>>> using >>>>>>> what you really believe to be true as your navigational instruments. >>>> Think >>>>>>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >>>>>>> thinkers" >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through >>>> culture. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of >> humans, >>>> so >>>>>>> far >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that might >> be >>>>>>> called >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. >>>>>>> Having >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your >>>> imagined >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What do others conclude? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ryan< >>>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2000; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing >> Legend* >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a bare >>>>>>> formal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same >>>> time to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical >>>> materialism, in >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >>>>>>> unprejudiced >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is that >> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >>>>>>> everything >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - but >>>> which >>>>>>> Marx >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision >>>> discovered >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty >> years >>>>>>> with a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one >> thinks >>>> one >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, the >>>> lesser >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case at >>>>>>> present; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time one >>>> will >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, however, >>>> Marx >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard to >>>> which >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were >>>> bound >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> lay*, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >>>>>>> political, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions arising >>>>>>> through >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so >>>> doing we >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these >>>>>>> notions, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has given >> our >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of which >>>> Paul >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >>>>>>> consciously, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a 1930 >>>>>>> review >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The >>>> idea in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marx >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from real >>>>>>> objects >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> activity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" < >> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >>>> interactionism >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was >>>> invented >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I don't >>>> think >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the >> Theses >>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like >>>> Spinoza >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> later >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is >>>> "false" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the true >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mainsprings >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From dkellogg60@gmail.com Fri Apr 4 15:00:12 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 07:00:12 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw: Consider these two very different grammars for clumping word-chunks together: a) (1) Think for yourselves! (2) Be original! (3) Be relevant! (4) Be useful! b) (1) Be useful! (2) Be relevant! (3) Think for yourselves! (Be original!) It seems to me that the grammar for clumping a) together is this: a1) is reformulated as a mental process simply because that is one of the most frequent fixed formulations in our culture. I think there are good reasons for this that have to do with the marketability of individualism--doing things for yourself is both extremely appealing and completely disempowering, and both of these are highly attractive in the current model of capitalism being developed. One of the reasons why the slogan "Think for yourself!" is so common is that it it is contentless (like "Just do it!"). So a1) is then reformulated as a relational process in a2) order to say what kind of thinking I am supposed to undertake. This isn't entirely successful, because ""Be original!" is essentially synonymous with "Think for yourself!" So we have the grammatical repetition but semantic variation of a3) and a4) which serves to add some content and remain pleasingly vague. The grammar for clumping b) together is different. I essentially ordered the chunks according to frequency, going from least frequent to most frequent. A computer can do it, and in fact a computer did. I think a computer would be hard put to generate the rules for clumping a). I think that's Arendt's point. If we think of language as a three layer sandwich (semantics, lexicogrammar, and phonology/phonetics, or "meaning", "wording", and "sounding", to use Halliday's scheme), we can say that meaning interfaces with non-individual human material because semantics has to reflect context (including social context), and sounding interfaces with non-individual human material because sounding has to reflect the properties of sound waves (and their decodability by others). But wording is under individual human control exclusively, hence the inimitability of grammar. Joseph is quite right to say that that the phonology is never entirely decoupled from the semantics. But he is quite wrong when he assumes that the most direct link is the articulation of phones. If this were true there would be very few articulatory differences between languages and in fact there are very many. There are, however, far fewer prosodic differences between languages. So for example in every language I know, including child protolanguage, rising intonation implies that an exchange is incomplete and some kind of response is required, while falling intonation implies that no response is necessary. Although even here there isn't a direct link between meaning and sounding, there is always and everywhere the indirect, mediated link of grammar. The problem arises when this link becomes automatic and habitual and loses the crucial component of conscious and deliberate control. We can call this the problem of thoughtless fluency, or mindless flow. I've often wondered why humankind should have chosen English, an extreme outlier among the world's language in terms of the learnability of its phonology and its lexicogrammar, as its first true experiment in having a world language. It seems, though, that other world languages (e.g. Greek, Latin French in the eighteenth century, and German in the nineteenth century) have also had these properties. Hymes said that "feasibility" is a property of all communicative competence, but I think he underestimated the extent to which a language of prestige, hence a language prized by worldly travellers, prizes unfeasibility. The inimitability of grammar becomes a badge of exclusitivity; a kind of a linguistic Business Class Lounge. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 4 April 2014 10:20, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Presumably, there's a grammar for clumping word-chunks together too... > > +1 ;) > > On 3 April 2014 23:08, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any >> explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. >> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to >> be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the >> person insulting me. >> >> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for >> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to >> baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that >> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, >> particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant >> to my work than the way that I do. >> >> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the >> interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil >> is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is >> that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and >> he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even >> though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that >> rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system >> of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a >> shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we >> do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign >> language (in my case, Russian). >> >> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated >> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, >> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to >> complete a high school education and used the extermination of the >> Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von >> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also >> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes >> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious >> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on >> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and >> cliche ridden. >> >> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final >> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic >> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether >> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever >> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more >> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their >> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the >> "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria >> (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up >> Jews). >> >> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says >> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would >> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of >> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a >> form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not >> speak German; instead, German speaks him. >> >> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, >> but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many >> more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he >> says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big >> difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, >> objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires >> work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical >> and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, >> save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) >> with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's >> biggest problem. >> >> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and >> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of >> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very >> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only >> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for >> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do >> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in >> sentences that cannot be readily Googled. >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Apr 4 16:51:51 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 00:51:51 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 April 2014 23:00, David Kellogg wrote: > Huw: > > Consider these two very different grammars for clumping word-chunks > together: > > a) (1) Think for yourselves! (2) Be original! (3) Be relevant! (4) Be > useful! > b) (1) Be useful! (2) Be relevant! (3) Think for yourselves! (Be original!) > > It seems to me that the grammar for clumping a) together is this: a1) > is reformulated as a mental process simply because that is one of the > most frequent fixed formulations in our culture. I think there are > good reasons for this that have to do with the marketability of > individualism--doing things for yourself is both extremely appealing > and completely disempowering, and both of these are highly attractive > in the current model of capitalism being developed. > > One of the reasons why the slogan "Think for yourself!" is so common > is that it it is contentless (like "Just do it!"). So a1) is then > reformulated as a relational process in a2) order to say what kind of > thinking I am supposed to undertake. This isn't entirely successful, > because ""Be original!" is essentially synonymous with "Think for > yourself!" So we have the grammatical repetition but semantic > variation of a3) and a4) which serves to add some content and remain > pleasingly vague. > Let's not forget "Be specific". :) I think you're on to something (or, as my inimitable boy says, "sump-sump"). The conservative party better watch out for your analytics. :) Also this reminds me of a case M. H. Erickson reported in persisting at speaking back gibberish to a patient. Eventually the patient asked why he was speaking that way. Clutching at straws, am I. Best, Huw > The grammar for clumping b) together is different. I essentially > ordered the chunks according to frequency, going from least frequent > to most frequent. A computer can do it, and in fact a computer did. I > think a computer would be hard put to generate the rules for clumping > a). > > I think that's Arendt's point. If we think of language as a three > layer sandwich (semantics, lexicogrammar, and phonology/phonetics, or > "meaning", "wording", and "sounding", to use Halliday's scheme), we > can say that meaning interfaces with non-individual human material > because semantics has to reflect context (including social context), > and sounding interfaces with non-individual human material because > sounding has to reflect the properties of sound waves (and their > decodability by others). But wording is under individual human control > exclusively, hence the inimitability of grammar. > > Joseph is quite right to say that that the phonology is never entirely > decoupled from the semantics. But he is quite wrong when he assumes > that the most direct link is the articulation of phones. If this were > true there would be very few articulatory differences between > languages and in fact there are very many. There are, however, far > fewer prosodic differences between languages. So for example in every > language I know, including child protolanguage, rising intonation > implies that an exchange is incomplete and some kind of response is > required, while falling intonation implies that no response is > necessary. > > Although even here there isn't a direct link between meaning and > sounding, there is always and everywhere the indirect, mediated link > of grammar. The problem arises when this link becomes automatic and > habitual and loses the crucial component of conscious and deliberate > control. We can call this the problem of thoughtless fluency, or > mindless flow. > > I've often wondered why humankind should have chosen English, an > extreme outlier among the world's language in terms of the > learnability of its phonology and its lexicogrammar, as its first true > experiment in having a world language. It seems, though, that other > world languages (e.g. Greek, Latin French in the eighteenth century, > and German in the nineteenth century) have also had these properties. > > Hymes said that "feasibility" is a property of all communicative > competence, but I think he underestimated the extent to which a > language of prestige, hence a language prized by worldly travellers, > prizes unfeasibility. The inimitability of grammar becomes a badge of > exclusitivity; a kind of a linguistic Business Class Lounge. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > On 4 April 2014 10:20, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > Presumably, there's a grammar for clumping word-chunks together too... > > > > +1 ;) > > > > On 3 April 2014 23:08, David Kellogg wrote: > > > >> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without any > >> explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. > >> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations to > >> be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the > >> person insulting me. > >> > >> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for > >> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing to > >> baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that > >> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky did, > >> particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and relevant > >> to my work than the way that I do. > >> > >> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of the > >> interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea that evil > >> is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely profound is > >> that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German language, and > >> he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks English, even > >> though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What Arendt means that > >> rather than consciously and deliberately master the intricate system > >> of German articles and case endings and genders, Eichmann takes a > >> shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and uses them whole, the way we > >> do when we are speaking or trying to write a very complex foreign > >> language (in my case, Russian). > >> > >> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated > >> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, > >> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed to > >> complete a high school education and used the extermination of the > >> Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von > >> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also > >> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes > >> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious > >> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on > >> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless and > >> cliche ridden. > >> > >> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final > >> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic > >> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether > >> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever > >> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more > >> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their > >> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that the > >> "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or Bulgaria > >> (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to round up > >> Jews). > >> > >> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says > >> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would > >> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of > >> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely a > >> form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not > >> speak German; instead, German speaks him. > >> > >> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires work, > >> but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are many > >> more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and when he > >> says this, what he is really showing us--almost perfectly--is the big > >> difference between the way we mediate reality and the way reality, > >> objectively, really is). In the same way, being grammatical requires > >> work, because there are infinitely many ways of being ungrammatical > >> and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. We can, of course, > >> save work by replacing one psychological function (grammaticality) > >> with another (memory), but when we do this run up against Arendt's > >> biggest problem. > >> > >> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and > >> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of > >> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very > >> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only > >> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for > >> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do > >> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them in > >> sentences that cannot be readily Googled. > >> > >> David Kellogg > >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >> > >> > >> > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Mon Apr 7 14:29:37 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 06:29:37 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Intonation and Gesture Message-ID: One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which children use their hands when they speak English. We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a notable improvement in intonation. This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she places her hand low. Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies . From alex_rosborough@byu.edu Mon Apr 7 15:23:51 2014 From: alex_rosborough@byu.edu (Alex Rosborough) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 22:23:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I think your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point (rhythmic point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled with a "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we break it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those downward strokes. So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. Alex Rosborough Brigham Young University On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: > One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which >children use their hands when they speak English. > >We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will >gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when >you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come >out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent >themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more >flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a >notable improvement in intonation. > >This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene >from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see >that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go >high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she >places her hand low. > >Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, >because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; >it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's >not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 > >David Kellogg >Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > > > . From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Apr 7 16:21:39 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 23:21:39 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013EC063@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013EC063@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: I want to thank Rod for posting these links. Following them I came cross more: for example, this one caught my attention: Imai, M., Kita, S., Nagumo, M., & Okada, H. (2008). Sound symbolism facilitates early verb learning. Cognition: International Journal of Cognitive Science, 109(1), 54-65. abstract Some words are sound-symbolic in that they involve a non-arbitrary relationship between sound and meaning. Here, we report that 25-month-old children are sensitive to cross-linguistically valid sound-symbolic matches in the domain of action and that this sound symbolism facilitates verb learning in young children. We constructed a set of novel sound-symbolic verbs whose sounds were judged to match certain actions better than others, as confirmed by adult Japanese- as well as English speakers, and by 2- and 3-year-old Japanese-speaking children. These sound-symbolic verbs, together with other novel non-sound-symbolic verbs, were used in a verb learning task with 3-year-old Japanese children. In line with the previous literature, 3-year-olds could not generalize the meaning of novel non-sound-symbolic verbs on the basis of the sameness of action. However, 3-year-olds could correctly generalize the meaning of novel sound-symbolic verbs. These results suggest that iconic scaffolding by means of sound symbolism plays an important role in early verb learning. 1. Introduction Since the time of Saussure, the arbitrary relationship between the sound of a word and its meaning has been held as an important principle of language (e.g., de Saus- sure, 1916/1983; Newmeyer, 1993). In mainstream linguistics, sound symbolism, in which the sound and meaning of words are systematically related, is considered to be a marginal phenomenon in language. For example, Newmeyer (1993) says that ??the number of pictorial, imitative, or onomatopoetic non-derived words in any language is vanishingly small (p. 758)?. Such a statement, however, turns out to be too strong when one looks beyond Indo-European languages. Many languages of the world have a large grammatically defined word class in which sound symbolism is clear. ... Martin On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:09 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > There has been a considerable amount of work done on cross-cultural patterns in sound symbolism and on cross-modal associations (e.g. between certain vowel sounds and visually perceived size differences). It is not surprising that we perceive the differences in 'mouth shape' between 'large' sounds and 'teeny weeny' ones and associate this with words which reference amplitude (brightness and smoothness as well as size). > > Some examples: > > Bremner, A, Caparos, S, Davidoff, J, de Fockert, J, Linnell, K and Spence, C (2013) "Bouba" and "Kiki" in Namibia? A remote culture make similar shape-sound matches, but different shape-taste matches to Westerners. Cognition 126 (2) 165-172. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027712002077 > > > Davis, R (2011) The fitness of names to drawings. A cross-cultural study in Tanganyika. > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1961.tb00788.x/abstract > > Taylor, I. And Taylor, M.(1965) Another look at phonetic symbolism.Psychological Bulletin, Vol 64(6), Dec 1965, 413-427. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/64/6/413/ > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 04 April 2014 15:26 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar > > Joseph, > >> From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far >> as I > can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you are continually faced with "academic" rejection. > > Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? > Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? > > If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- from the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > >> Dear David, >> I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that >> you'll would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant >> fashion. It seems either you do not understand or do not want to >> understand my offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with >> this long-time situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven >> forbid, insulting anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a >> discovery. I assumed, long ago, that those in the academic world would >> be the most likely to understand what I had found. But it eventually >> became evident to me that the very ones who, I had assumed it would be >> the most fruitful to share my work with, are the most resistant to new >> ideas that relate to their turf. I have yet to receive a cogent or >> even minimally relevant response from any person in the world of >> academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was denied consideration >> of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics department at MIT. >> She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy degree from >> Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran counter >> to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no >> relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that >> even though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically >> sound, the established order would not even consider her work on its >> merit. She is the only one of those in academia who responded >> intelligently to what I shared with her. She posted my writings on her >> website, "Magical Letter Page" and also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism" my writing comes up. >> I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic >> writings on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none >> that make any sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious >> to me that the sounds we make with our voices express what's going on >> with us. The ability to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. >> So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was >> still persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our >> thinking, we are left with the sounds of our words and with the >> persistent uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things >> we may talk about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, >> of how things work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to >> any conclusion as to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds >> themselves of our words, that serve to inform us of how we are >> affected by that which makes up our world. Although this informing >> takes place subliminally, it is all we have to go on in our quest for >> a sense of meaning. That is the magic of >> language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell >> of the our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has >> far-reaching ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. >> I come from a partly Jewish background and have much >> appreciation for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. >> It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking >> any wooden nickels. >> >> Joseph C. Gilbert >> >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >> >>> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without >>> any explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. >>> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations >>> to be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the >>> person insulting me. >>> >>> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for >>> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing >>> to baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that >>> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky >>> did, particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and >>> relevant to my work than the way that I do. >>> >>> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of >>> the interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea >>> that evil is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely >>> profound is that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German >>> language, and he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks >>> English, even though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What >>> Arendt means that rather than consciously and deliberately master >>> the intricate system of German articles and case endings and >>> genders, Eichmann takes a shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and >>> uses them whole, the way we do when we are speaking or trying to >>> write a very complex foreign language (in my case, Russian). >>> >>> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated >>> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, >>> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed >>> to complete a high school education and used the extermination of >>> the Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von >>> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also >>> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes >>> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious >>> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on >>> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless >>> and cliche ridden. >>> >>> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final >>> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic >>> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether >>> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever >>> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more >>> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their >>> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that >>> the "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or >>> Bulgaria (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to >>> round up Jews). >>> >>> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says >>> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would >>> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of >>> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely >>> a form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not >>> speak German; instead, German speaks him. >>> >>> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires >>> work, but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are >>> many more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and >>> when he says this, what he is really showing us--almost >>> perfectly--is the big difference between the way we mediate reality >>> and the way reality, objectively, really is). In the same way, being >>> grammatical requires work, because there are infinitely many ways of >>> being ungrammatical and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. >>> We can, of course, save work by replacing one psychological function >>> (grammaticality) with another (memory), but when we do this run up >>> against Arendt's biggest problem. >>> >>> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and >>> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of >>> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very >>> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only >>> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for >>> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do >>> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them >>> in sentences that cannot be readily Googled. >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think >>> for themselves. B >>> >>> On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: >>>> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend >>>> our time more usefully, Michael. >>>> >>>> hangin' out in southern california. >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> >>>>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >>>>> >>>>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >>>>> >>>>> Psycho-Educational Consultant >>>>> >>>>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >>>>> >>>>> www.autisticvancouver.com >>>>> >>>>> 604.322.1019 >>>>> >>>>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >>>>> >>>>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>>>> Kellogg >>>>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >>>>> interactionism >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" >>>>> "Be >>>>> >>>>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, >>>>> >>>>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here's what I found: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joseph >>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the >> current >>>>> "conversational thread." >>>>> >>>>>> Lois >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>> >>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term >>>>>> Psychotherapy >>>>> >>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>> >>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>> >>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>> >>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>> >>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>> >>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>> >>>>>> Social Media >>>>> >>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>> >>>>>> Blogs >>>>> >>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>> >>>>>> Websites >>>>> >>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>> >>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and >> thinking >>>>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of >>>>> the >> past. >>>>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized >> authorities, >>>>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, >>>>> conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are >>>>> yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like >>>>> to have a peaceful planet >> for >>>>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve >>>>> that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based >>>>> upon our best >> current >>>>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward >>>>> to >> Jesus >>>>> to >>>>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state >>>>> tend >> to >>>>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises >>>>> established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish >>>>> something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly >>>>> engaging in "small talk" among >> your >>>>> cohorts in an isolated i >>>>> >>>>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems >>>>> you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves >>>>> while the real >> needs >>>>> of >>>>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from >>>>> there, using what you really believe to be true as your >>>>> navigational instruments. >> Think >>>>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >>>>> thinkers" >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through >> culture. >>>>> The >>>>> >>>>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of >>>>>>>> humans, >> so >>>>> far >>>>> >>>>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that >>>>>>>> might be >>>>> called >>>>> >>>>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. >>>>> Having >>>>> >>>>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your >> imagined >>>>> >>>>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> What do others conclude? >>>>> >>>>>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>>> >>>>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ryan< >> http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm >>>>>> in >>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2000; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing >>>>>>>>> Legend* >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a >>>>>>>>> bare >>>>> formal >>>>> >>>>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same >> time to >>>>> tell >>>>> >>>>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical >> materialism, in >>>>> which >>>>> >>>>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >>>>> unprejudiced >>>>> >>>>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is >>>>>>>>> that you >>>>> >>>>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >>>>> everything >>>>> >>>>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - >>>>>>>>> but >> which >>>>> Marx >>>>> >>>>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision >> discovered >>>>> much >>>>> >>>>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty >>>>>>>>> years >>>>> with a >>>>> >>>>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one >>>>>>>>> thinks >> one >>>>> >>>>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, >>>>>>>>> the >> lesser >>>>> >>>>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case >>>>>>>>> at >>>>> present; >>>>> >>>>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time >>>>>>>>> one >> will >>>>> be >>>>> >>>>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, >>>>>>>>> however, >> Marx >>>>> and I >>>>> >>>>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard >>>>>>>>> to >> which >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were >> bound >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>>>>>> lay*, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >>>>> political, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions >>>>>>>>> arising >>>>> through >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so >> doing we >>>>> >>>>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these >>>>> notions, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has >>>>>>>>> given our >>>>> >>>>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of >>>>>>>>> which >> Paul >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >>>>> consciously, >>>>> >>>>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi-- >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a >>>>>>>>>>> 1930 >>>>> review >>>>> >>>>>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The >> idea in >>>>> >>>>>>>>> Marx >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from >>>>>>>>>> real >>>>> objects >>>>> >>>>>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> activity. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.ht >> m >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >> interactionism >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was >> invented >>>>> by >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I >>>>>>>>>>> don't >> think >>>>> >>>>>>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the >>>>>>>>>>> Theses >> on >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like >> Spinoza >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> later >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is >> "false" >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the >>>>>>>>>>>> true >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mainsprings >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From joeg4us@roadrunner.com Mon Apr 7 16:57:00 2014 From: joeg4us@roadrunner.com (Joseph Gilbert) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 16:57:00 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013EC063@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Check out Margaret Magnus' book, "A Dictionary of English Sound" and her website, . She shows that word sound is related to the characteristics of the things to which words refer. Joseph Gilbert On Apr 7, 2014, at 4:21 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > I want to thank Rod for posting these links. Following them I came > cross more: for example, this one caught my attention: > > Imai, M., Kita, S., Nagumo, M., & Okada, H. (2008). Sound symbolism > facilitates early verb learning. Cognition: International Journal > of Cognitive Science, 109(1), 54-65. > > abstract > > Some words are sound-symbolic in that they involve a non-arbitrary > relationship between sound and meaning. Here, we report that 25- > month-old children are sensitive to cross-linguistically valid > sound-symbolic matches in the domain of action and that this sound > symbolism facilitates verb learning in young children. We > constructed a set of novel sound-symbolic verbs whose sounds were > judged to match certain actions better than others, as confirmed by > adult Japanese- as well as English speakers, and by 2- and 3-year- > old Japanese-speaking children. These sound-symbolic verbs, > together with other novel non-sound-symbolic verbs, were used in a > verb learning task with 3-year-old Japanese children. In line with > the previous literature, 3-year-olds could not generalize the > meaning of novel non-sound-symbolic verbs on the basis of the > sameness of action. However, 3-year-olds could correctly generalize > the meaning of novel sound-symbolic verbs. These results suggest > that iconic scaffolding by means of sound symbolism plays an > important role in early verb learning. > > 1. Introduction > > Since the time of Saussure, the arbitrary relationship between the > sound of a word and its meaning has been held as an important > principle of language (e.g., de Saus- sure, 1916/1983; Newmeyer, > 1993). In mainstream linguistics, sound symbolism, in which the > sound and meaning of words are systematically related, is > considered to be a marginal phenomenon in language. For example, > Newmeyer (1993) says that ??the number of pictorial, imitative, or > onomatopoetic non-derived words in any language is vanishingly > small (p. 758)?. > > Such a statement, however, turns out to be too strong when one > looks beyond Indo-European languages. Many languages of the world > have a large grammatically defined word class in which sound > symbolism is clear. ... > > Martin > > > On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:09 AM, Rod Parker-Rees Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > >> There has been a considerable amount of work done on cross- >> cultural patterns in sound symbolism and on cross-modal >> associations (e.g. between certain vowel sounds and visually >> perceived size differences). It is not surprising that we perceive >> the differences in 'mouth shape' between 'large' sounds and 'teeny >> weeny' ones and associate this with words which reference >> amplitude (brightness and smoothness as well as size). >> >> Some examples: >> >> Bremner, A, Caparos, S, Davidoff, J, de Fockert, J, Linnell, K and >> Spence, C (2013) "Bouba" and "Kiki" in Namibia? A remote culture >> make similar shape-sound matches, but different shape-taste >> matches to Westerners. Cognition 126 (2) 165-172. http:// >> www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027712002077 >> >> >> Davis, R (2011) The fitness of names to drawings. A cross- >> cultural study in Tanganyika. >> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j. >> 2044-8295.1961.tb00788.x/abstract >> >> Taylor, I. And Taylor, M.(1965) Another look at phonetic >> symbolism.Psychological Bulletin, Vol 64(6), Dec 1965, 413-427. >> http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/64/6/413/ >> >> All the best, >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l- >> bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd >> Sent: 04 April 2014 15:26 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar >> >> Joseph, >> >>> From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as >>> far >>> as I >> can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding >> your interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You >> are not admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which >> is why are you are continually faced with "academic" rejection. >> >> Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the >> ear, such as how movements in the air matter become translated >> into nerve pulses? >> Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous >> structure of behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in >> the establishment of norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? >> >> If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic >> of your interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable >> responses -- from the scientific perspective, you'd start to be >> useful and relevant. >> >> Best, >> Huw >> >> >> >> >> On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: >> >>> Dear David, >>> I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that >>> you'll would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some >>> relevant >>> fashion. It seems either you do not understand or do not want to >>> understand my offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated >>> with >>> this long-time situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven >>> forbid, insulting anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a >>> discovery. I assumed, long ago, that those in the academic world >>> would >>> be the most likely to understand what I had found. But it eventually >>> became evident to me that the very ones who, I had assumed it >>> would be >>> the most fruitful to share my work with, are the most resistant >>> to new >>> ideas that relate to their turf. I have yet to receive a cogent or >>> even minimally relevant response from any person in the world of >>> academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was denied >>> consideration >>> of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics department at MIT. >>> She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy degree from >>> Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran counter >>> to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no >>> relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that >>> even though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically >>> sound, the established order would not even consider her work on its >>> merit. She is the only one of those in academia who responded >>> intelligently to what I shared with her. She posted my writings >>> on her >>> website, "Magical Letter Page" and also put it on the web so that >>> when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism" my writing >>> comes up. >>> I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic >>> writings on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none >>> that make any sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious >>> to me that the sounds we make with our voices express what's >>> going on >>> with us. The ability to vocalize evolved because the ability to >>> communicate was an advantage. >>> So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was >>> still persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after >>> all our >>> thinking, we are left with the sounds of our words and with the >>> persistent uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many >>> things >>> we may talk about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with >>> words, >>> of how things work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot >>> come to >>> any conclusion as to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds >>> themselves of our words, that serve to inform us of how we are >>> affected by that which makes up our world. Although this informing >>> takes place subliminally, it is all we have to go on in our quest >>> for >>> a sense of meaning. That is the magic of >>> language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell >>> of the our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has >>> far-reaching ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of >>> human affairs. >>> I come from a partly Jewish background and have much >>> appreciation for who the Jewish people are and the role they play >>> in earthly affairs. >>> It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking >>> any wooden nickels. >>> >>> Joseph C. Gilbert >>> >>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without >>>> any explanation because I believe that people should think for >>>> themselves. >>>> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations >>>> to be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with >>>> the >>>> person insulting me. >>>> >>>> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for >>>> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing >>>> to baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that >>>> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky >>>> did, particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and >>>> relevant to my work than the way that I do. >>>> >>>> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of >>>> the interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea >>>> that evil is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely >>>> profound is that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German >>>> language, and he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself >>>> speaks >>>> English, even though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What >>>> Arendt means that rather than consciously and deliberately master >>>> the intricate system of German articles and case endings and >>>> genders, Eichmann takes a shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and >>>> uses them whole, the way we do when we are speaking or trying to >>>> write a very complex foreign language (in my case, Russian). >>>> >>>> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated >>>> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, >>>> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed >>>> to complete a high school education and used the extermination of >>>> the Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret >>>> Von >>>> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also >>>> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, >>>> makes >>>> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious >>>> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on >>>> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless >>>> and cliche ridden. >>>> >>>> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final >>>> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic >>>> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether >>>> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever >>>> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more >>>> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change >>>> their >>>> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that >>>> the "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or >>>> Bulgaria (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to >>>> round up Jews). >>>> >>>> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply >>>> says >>>> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it >>>> would >>>> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of >>>> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is >>>> precisely >>>> a form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does >>>> not >>>> speak German; instead, German speaks him. >>>> >>>> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires >>>> work, but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there >>>> are >>>> many more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and >>>> when he says this, what he is really showing us--almost >>>> perfectly--is the big difference between the way we mediate reality >>>> and the way reality, objectively, really is). In the same way, >>>> being >>>> grammatical requires work, because there are infinitely many >>>> ways of >>>> being ungrammatical and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. >>>> We can, of course, save work by replacing one psychological >>>> function >>>> (grammaticality) with another (memory), but when we do this run up >>>> against Arendt's biggest problem. >>>> >>>> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions >>>> and >>>> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of >>>> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply >>>> very >>>> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only >>>> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for >>>> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do >>>> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them >>>> in sentences that cannot be readily Googled. >>>> >>>> David Kellogg >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to >>>> think >>>> for themselves. B >>>> >>>> On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: >>>>> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we >>>>> spend >>>>> our time more usefully, Michael. >>>>> >>>>> hangin' out in southern california. >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> David, >>>>>> >>>>>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >>>>>> >>>>>> Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >>>>>> >>>>>> Psycho-Educational Consultant >>>>>> >>>>>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >>>>>> >>>>>> www.autisticvancouver.com >>>>>> >>>>>> 604.322.1019 >>>>>> >>>>>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >>>>>> >>>>>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>>>>> Kellogg >>>>>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >>>>>> interactionism >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" >>>>>> "Be >>>>>> >>>>>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has >>>>>> had, >>>>>> >>>>>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's what I found: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to >>>>>> find.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on >>>>>>> the >>> current >>>>>> "conversational thread." >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lois >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>> >>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term >>>>>>> Psychotherapy >>>>>> >>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>> >>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>> >>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>> >>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>> >>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>> >>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>> >>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>> >>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>> >>>>>>> Websites >>>>>> >>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>> >>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and >>> thinking >>>>>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of >>>>>> the >>> past. >>>>>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized >>> authorities, >>>>>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, >>>>>> conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are >>>>>> yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like >>>>>> to have a peaceful planet >>> for >>>>>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve >>>>>> that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based >>>>>> upon our best >>> current >>>>>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward >>>>>> to >>> Jesus >>>>>> to >>>>>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state >>>>>> tend >>> to >>>>>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises >>>>>> established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish >>>>>> something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly >>>>>> engaging in "small talk" among >>> your >>>>>> cohorts in an isolated i >>>>>> >>>>>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems >>>>>> you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves >>>>>> while the real >>> needs >>>>>> of >>>>>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from >>>>>> there, using what you really believe to be true as your >>>>>> navigational instruments. >>> Think >>>>>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it >>>>>>>>> there?). >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >>>>>> thinkers" >>>>>> by >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through >>> culture. >>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered >>>>>>>>> future. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of >>>>>>>>> humans, >>> so >>>>>> far >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that >>>>>>>>> might be >>>>>> called >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary >>>>>>>>> worlds. >>>>>> Having >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your >>> imagined >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What do others conclude? >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ryan< >>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm >>>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2000; >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing >>>>>>>>>> Legend* >>>>>> you >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a >>>>>>>>>> bare >>>>>> formal >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the >>>>>>>>>> same >>> time to >>>>>> tell >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical >>> materialism, in >>>>>> which >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >>>>>> unprejudiced >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is >>>>>>>>>> that you >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I >>>>>>>>>> count in >>>>>> everything >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - >>>>>>>>>> but >>> which >>>>>> Marx >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision >>> discovered >>>>>> much >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty >>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>> with a >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one >>>>>>>>>> thinks >>> one >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, >>>>>>>>>> the >>> lesser >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my >>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>> present; >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time >>>>>>>>>> one >>> will >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, >>>>>>>>>> however, >>> Marx >>>>>> and I >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard >>>>>>>>>> to >>> which >>>>>> we >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and >>>>>>>>>> *were >>> bound >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> lay*, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >>>>>> political, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions >>>>>>>>>> arising >>>>>> through >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so >>> doing we >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>> notions, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has >>>>>>>>>> given our >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of >>>>>>>>>> which >>> Paul >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >>>>>> consciously, >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi-- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a >>>>>>>>>>>> 1930 >>>>>> review >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. >>>>>>>>>>> The >>> idea in >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Marx >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from >>>>>>>>>>> real >>>>>> objects >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> activity. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/ >>> labour.ht >>> m >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >>> interactionism >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was >>> invented >>>>>> by >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>> think >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the >>>>>>>>>>>> Theses >>> on >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like >>> Spinoza >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> later >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is >>> "false" >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> true >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> mainsprings >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]> www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended >> solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If >> you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or >> other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and >> you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in >> error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from >> your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While >> we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility >> for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their >> attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility >> for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or >> its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless >> accompanied by an official order form. >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Apr 7 17:45:41 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 00:45:41 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar In-Reply-To: References: <001ED217-C89E-4368-BC13-DAC3D0044D73@roadrunner.com> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013EC063@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <34DA2A0E-ECA1-4D0A-8913-55C5C356EDE1@uniandes.edu.co> A small contribution: 'toehead' ------------------------------ A1 People /t/ 4 Young, Small People tad, teen, toots, tot, tyke Number of Words 5 ---------------------------- On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Joseph Gilbert wrote: > Check out Margaret Magnus' book, "A Dictionary of English Sound" and her website, . She shows that word sound is related to the characteristics of the things to which words refer. > > Joseph Gilbert > > On Apr 7, 2014, at 4:21 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> I want to thank Rod for posting these links. Following them I came cross more: for example, this one caught my attention: >> >> Imai, M., Kita, S., Nagumo, M., & Okada, H. (2008). Sound symbolism facilitates early verb learning. Cognition: International Journal of Cognitive Science, 109(1), 54-65. >> >> abstract >> >> Some words are sound-symbolic in that they involve a non-arbitrary relationship between sound and meaning. Here, we report that 25-month-old children are sensitive to cross-linguistically valid sound-symbolic matches in the domain of action and that this sound symbolism facilitates verb learning in young children. We constructed a set of novel sound-symbolic verbs whose sounds were judged to match certain actions better than others, as confirmed by adult Japanese- as well as English speakers, and by 2- and 3-year-old Japanese-speaking children. These sound-symbolic verbs, together with other novel non-sound-symbolic verbs, were used in a verb learning task with 3-year-old Japanese children. In line with the previous literature, 3-year-olds could not generalize the meaning of novel non-sound-symbolic verbs on the basis of the sameness of action. However, 3-year-olds could correctly generalize the meaning of novel sound-symbolic verbs. These results suggest that iconic scaffolding by means of sound symbolism plays an important role in early verb learning. >> >> 1. Introduction >> >> Since the time of Saussure, the arbitrary relationship between the sound of a word and its meaning has been held as an important principle of language (e.g., de Saus- sure, 1916/1983; Newmeyer, 1993). In mainstream linguistics, sound symbolism, in which the sound and meaning of words are systematically related, is considered to be a marginal phenomenon in language. For example, Newmeyer (1993) says that ??the number of pictorial, imitative, or onomatopoetic non-derived words in any language is vanishingly small (p. 758)?. >> >> Such a statement, however, turns out to be too strong when one looks beyond Indo-European languages. Many languages of the world have a large grammatically defined word class in which sound symbolism is clear. ... >> >> Martin >> >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 10:09 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: >> >>> There has been a considerable amount of work done on cross-cultural patterns in sound symbolism and on cross-modal associations (e.g. between certain vowel sounds and visually perceived size differences). It is not surprising that we perceive the differences in 'mouth shape' between 'large' sounds and 'teeny weeny' ones and associate this with words which reference amplitude (brightness and smoothness as well as size). >>> >>> Some examples: >>> >>> Bremner, A, Caparos, S, Davidoff, J, de Fockert, J, Linnell, K and Spence, C (2013) "Bouba" and "Kiki" in Namibia? A remote culture make similar shape-sound matches, but different shape-taste matches to Westerners. Cognition 126 (2) 165-172. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027712002077 >>> >>> >>> Davis, R (2011) The fitness of names to drawings. A cross-cultural study in Tanganyika. >>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2044-8295.1961.tb00788.x/abstract >>> >>> Taylor, I. And Taylor, M.(1965) Another look at phonetic symbolism.Psychological Bulletin, Vol 64(6), Dec 1965, 413-427. http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/64/6/413/ >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Rod >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Huw Lloyd >>> Sent: 04 April 2014 15:26 >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Inimitability of Grammar >>> >>> Joseph, >>> >>>> From scanning your occasionally posts over the last six years, as far >>>> as I >>> can see the principal problem you are having stems from holding your interest as a belief rather than an object of inquiry. You are not admitting for any thorough logic in your interest, which is why are you are continually faced with "academic" rejection. >>> >>> Have you, for example, studied some of the bio-mechanics of the ear, such as how movements in the air matter become translated into nerve pulses? >>> Have you studied how word utterances influence the nervous structure of behaviour? Have you studied the social processes in the establishment of norms and how these influence meaning of sounds? >>> >>> If you undertake such disciplined study and demonstrate the logic of your interest, then I would predict you'll get more favourable responses -- from the scientific perspective, you'd start to be useful and relevant. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4 April 2014 02:55, Joseph Gilbert wrote: >>> >>>> Dear David, >>>> I was not expecting you to agree with me, but rather hoping that >>>> you'll would grasp what I was explaining and respond in some relevant >>>> fashion. It seems either you do not understand or do not want to >>>> understand my offering. I admit, I am disappointed and frustrated with >>>> this long-time situation. For me, it is not about blaming or, heaven >>>> forbid, insulting anyone, it's simply about attempting to share a >>>> discovery. I assumed, long ago, that those in the academic world would >>>> be the most likely to understand what I had found. But it eventually >>>> became evident to me that the very ones who, I had assumed it would be >>>> the most fruitful to share my work with, are the most resistant to new >>>> ideas that relate to their turf. I have yet to receive a cogent or >>>> even minimally relevant response from any person in the world of >>>> academia, except for one Margaret Magnus. She was denied consideration >>>> of her doctorate thesis by Chomsky's linguistics department at MIT. >>>> She persisted and received her doctor of philosophy degree from >>>> Trondheim University. It seems that because her findings ran counter >>>> to the doctrine of many current linguists (that there is no >>>> relationship between the sounds of words and their meanings), that >>>> even though her method of proof of her assertion was scientifically >>>> sound, the established order would not even consider her work on its >>>> merit. She is the only one of those in academia who responded >>>> intelligently to what I shared with her. She posted my writings on her >>>> website, "Magical Letter Page" and also put it on the web so that when one searches for "Joseph Gilbert sound symbolism" my writing comes up. >>>> I was saying that, after seeing many examples of academic >>>> writings on the subject of phonosemiotics, I have found almost none >>>> that make any sense and/or offer any solid assertions. It is obvious >>>> to me that the sounds we make with our voices express what's going on >>>> with us. The ability to vocalize evolved because the ability to communicate was an advantage. >>>> So, what was being communicated by vocal utterances? Whatever it was >>>> still persists in all spoken-word languages. Ultimately, after all our >>>> thinking, we are left with the sounds of our words and with the >>>> persistent uncertainty of the final meaning of any of the many things >>>> we may talk about. We can gain an abstract understanding, with words, >>>> of how things work, but with all our reasoning we still cannot come to >>>> any conclusion as to what any of it means to us. It is the sounds >>>> themselves of our words, that serve to inform us of how we are >>>> affected by that which makes up our world. Although this informing >>>> takes place subliminally, it is all we have to go on in our quest for >>>> a sense of meaning. That is the magic of >>>> language: How we spell/pronounce our words is what creates the spell >>>> of the our language. This is very primal and quite simple, but has >>>> far-reaching ramifications. The spoken word is the driver of human affairs. >>>> I come from a partly Jewish background and have much >>>> appreciation for who the Jewish people are and the role they play in earthly affairs. >>>> It's all about asking the relevant questions and not taking >>>> any wooden nickels. >>>> >>>> Joseph C. Gilbert >>>> >>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 3:08 PM, David Kellogg wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, of course, I sent out the results of the experiment without >>>>> any explanation because I believe that people should think for themselves. >>>>> But Mike is right--I am mildly insulted when I receive exhortations >>>>> to be relevant, be useful, and think for myself by agreeing with the >>>>> person insulting me. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps I shouldn't be. The truth is that I have been thinking for >>>>> myself for so long that I actually bore myself while still managing >>>>> to baffle the reviewers of prominent journals. And it is true that >>>>> sometimes--yea, often--I would rather think the way that Vygotsky >>>>> did, particularly since the way he thought seems more useful and >>>>> relevant to my work than the way that I do. >>>>> >>>>> I would also like to think the way that Hannah Arendt did. One of >>>>> the interesting remarks she makes in support of the Kantian idea >>>>> that evil is always superficial and only moral good is genuinely >>>>> profound is that Eichman had not mastered the grammar of the German >>>>> language, and he speaks it rather the way that Arendt herself speaks >>>>> English, even though Eichmann is a native speaker of German. What >>>>> Arendt means that rather than consciously and deliberately master >>>>> the intricate system of German articles and case endings and >>>>> genders, Eichmann takes a shortcut--he simply memorizes phrases and >>>>> uses them whole, the way we do when we are speaking or trying to >>>>> write a very complex foreign language (in my case, Russian). >>>>> >>>>> At first I thought this was merely the hauteur of a very educated >>>>> German Jew, the star pupil of Martin Heidegger and Karl Jaspers, >>>>> confronted with an unsuccessful peripatetic oil salesman who failed >>>>> to complete a high school education and used the extermination of >>>>> the Jews as a way of advancing a lackluster career. But Margaret Von >>>>> Trotta, who in the course of making the film "Hanna Arendt" also >>>>> subjected herself to thousands of hours of Eichmann testimony, makes >>>>> exactly the same remark. As a consequence of a lack of conscious >>>>> awareness of the way the German language works and a reliance on >>>>> memorized phrases, Eichmann's language is necessarily thoughtless >>>>> and cliche ridden. >>>>> >>>>> Von Trotta's example is this. The judge asks Eichmann if the "Final >>>>> Solution" would have unrolled differently had their been "civic >>>>> responsibility", the judge is very clearly interested in whether >>>>> people like Eichmann, who essentially bear no ill will whatsoever >>>>> towards Jews and are simply doing a job that is somewhat more >>>>> lucrative and promising than selling oil, would want to change their >>>>> job if they were confronted with the kind of civic resistance that >>>>> the "Final Solution" encountered in, say, Denmark or Serbia or >>>>> Bulgaria (where local populations actively resisted the attempt to >>>>> round up Jews). >>>>> >>>>> Eichmann makes no attempt to understand the question. He simply says >>>>> had it benefited from sufficient hierarchical organization, it would >>>>> undoubtedly have been more efficient and more efficiacious. But of >>>>> course the result is nonsense, because in this case "X" is precisely >>>>> a form of resistance to hierarchical organization. Eichmann does not >>>>> speak German; instead, German speaks him. >>>>> >>>>> Bateson remarks that the reason why keeping a room tidy requires >>>>> work, but it just gets untidy by itself is simple entropy; there are >>>>> many more ways of being untidy than there are of being tidy (and >>>>> when he says this, what he is really showing us--almost >>>>> perfectly--is the big difference between the way we mediate reality >>>>> and the way reality, objectively, really is). In the same way, being >>>>> grammatical requires work, because there are infinitely many ways of >>>>> being ungrammatical and relatively fewer ways of being grammatical. >>>>> We can, of course, save work by replacing one psychological function >>>>> (grammaticality) with another (memory), but when we do this run up >>>>> against Arendt's biggest problem. >>>>> >>>>> Arendt is shocked that Eichmann uses Kant to justify his actions and >>>>> even gives a reasonably good, though no doubt memorized, version of >>>>> the Categorical Imperative. She concludes that there are simply very >>>>> many ways of being evil, and relatively few of being good. The only >>>>> reliable method of telling the difference is to think and speak for >>>>> yourself. Paradoxically, or perhaps not so, this is something we do >>>>> not do well unless we actually listen to others and respond to them >>>>> in sentences that cannot be readily Googled. >>>>> >>>>> David Kellogg >>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> simply want to advance their career, So the I want people to think >>>>> for themselves. B >>>>> >>>>> On 4 April 2014 01:35, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> I believe David is commenting on Joseph's exhortation that we spend >>>>>> our time more usefully, Michael. >>>>>> >>>>>> hangin' out in southern california. >>>>>> mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:15 AM, Michael wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> David, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But what exactly does your "little experiment" mean? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Therapist, Affective Speech Remediation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Psycho-Educational Consultant >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Voice Teacher, Vocal Coach >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.autisticvancouver.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 604.322.1019 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sharpening the Ear for Better Communication >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and Socially Appropriate Behaviour >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David >>>>>>> Kellogg >>>>>>> Sent: April-02-14 11:48 PM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >>>>>>> interactionism >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just tried a little experiment. I googled "Think for yourself!" >>>>>>> "Be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> relevant!" and "Be useful!" to see how many times someone has had, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more or less, these exact sentiments in these exact words. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's what I found: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be useful!" 4,030,020 matches in .32 seconds. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be relevant!" 607,000,000 in 0.26 seconds. (Much easier to find.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Think for yourself!" 717 million mentions in only .040 seconds! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3 April 2014 11:24, Lois Holzman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd like to know more about you. I appreciate your comment on the >>>> current >>>>>>> "conversational thread." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Director, East Side Institute for Group & Short Term >>>>>>>> Psychotherapy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 104-106 South Oxford Street >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brooklyn, New York 11217 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chair, Global Outreach, All Stars Project, UX >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tel. +1.212.941.8906 x324 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fax +1.718.797.3966 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Social Media >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blogs >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Psychology Today| Psychology of Becoming | ESI Community News >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Websites >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lois Holzman | East Side Institute | Performing the World >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All Stars Project >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Joseph Gilbert >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> May I suggest that you-all emphasize your own questioning and >>>> thinking >>>>>>> rather than mainly referring to great innovators and thinkers of >>>>>>> the >>>> past. >>>>>>> By concentrating on what has already been said by recognized >>>> authorities, >>>>>>> one stays mired in the past. It is natural for intelligent, >>>>>>> conscious beings to have their own wonderings/questions. What are >>>>>>> yours? Do you wish to remake the world in any way? Would you like >>>>>>> to have a peaceful planet >>>> for >>>>>>> your grandchildren? What needs to be done in order to achieve >>>>>>> that? How about a new perception, an updated world-view, based >>>>>>> upon our best >>>> current >>>>>>> knowledge of human nature? Just as many Christians look backward >>>>>>> to >>>> Jesus >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> chart their course, academicians in this current corporate state >>>>>>> tend >>>> to >>>>>>> remain stuck in the already accepted arguments and premises >>>>>>> established long ago. Please break free and really accomplish >>>>>>> something useful with your wealth of knowledge rather than mostly >>>>>>> engaging in "small talk" among >>>> your >>>>>>> cohorts in an isolated i >>>>>>> >>>>>>> vory tower. We (humanity) need all the help we can get. It seems >>>>>>> you should be able to do more than split hairs among yourselves >>>>>>> while the real >>>> needs >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the world go unaddressed. Get back to the basics and build from >>>>>>> there, using what you really believe to be true as your >>>>>>> navigational instruments. >>>> Think >>>>>>> for yourselves! Be original! Be relevant! Be useful! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 8:27 AM, mike cole wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Seems like you nailed it, Robert, (and Benjamin read it there?). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The lesson I take away from this is that we are all "so-called >>>>>>> thinkers" >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> virtue of the fact that our consciousness is mediated through >>>> culture. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> imagined present never precisely matches the encountered future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In so far as there is an antidote to this characteristic of >>>>>>>>>> humans, >>>> so >>>>>>> far >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as I can figure out, it is develop cultural practices that >>>>>>>>>> might be >>>>>>> called >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "critical" in that they diverge from the common imaginary worlds. >>>>>>> Having >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> criticized, the preferred next step would be to test out your >>>> imagined >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> world in practice in order to discover its flaws. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What do others conclude? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:56 PM, Robert Lake >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> See highlighted phrase below :-). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marx-Engels Correspondence 1893 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Engels to Franz Mehring Abstract >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Source: *Marx and Engels Correspondence*; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Publisher: International Publishers (1968); >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> First Published: *Gestamtausgabe*; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Translated: Donna Torr; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Transcribed: Sally >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ryan< >>>> http://www.marxists.org/admin/volunteers/biographies/sryan.htm >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2000; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> HTML Markup: Sally Ryan. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> London, July 14, 1893 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Today is my first opportunity to thank you for the *Lessing >>>>>>>>>>> Legend* >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> were kind enough to send me. I did not want to reply with a >>>>>>>>>>> bare >>>>>>> formal >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> acknowledgment of receipt of the book but intended at the same >>>> time to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you something about it, about its contents. Hence the delay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I shall begin at the end -- the appendix on historical >>>> materialism, in >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you have described the main things excellently and for any >>>>>>> unprejudiced >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> person convincingly. If I find anything to object to it is >>>>>>>>>>> that you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> attribute more credit to me than I deserve, even if I count in >>>>>>> everything >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> which I might possibly have found out for myself - in time - >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>> which >>>>>>> Marx >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> with his more rapid *coup d'oeil* (grasp) and wider vision >>>> discovered >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more quickly. When one has the good fortune to work for forty >>>>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>> with a >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> man like Marx, one does not usually get the recognition one >>>>>>>>>>> thinks >>>> one >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> deserves during his lifetime. Then if the greater man dies, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>> lesser >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> easily gets overrated, and this seems to me to be just my case >>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>> present; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> history will set all this right in the end and by that time >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>> will >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> safely round the corner and know nothing more about anything. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise there is only one other point lacking, which, >>>>>>>>>>> however, >>>> Marx >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> always failed to stress enough in our writings and in regard >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>> which >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are all equally guilty. That is to say, we all laid, and *were >>>> bound >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> lay*, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the main emphasis, in the first place, on the *derivation* of >>>>>>> political, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> juridical and other ideological notions, and of actions >>>>>>>>>>> arising >>>>>>> through >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> medium of these notions, from basic economic facts. But in so >>>> doing we >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> neglected the formal side -- the ways and means by which these >>>>>>> notions, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> etc., come about -- for the sake of the content. This has >>>>>>>>>>> given our >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> adversaries a welcome opportunity for misunderstandings, of >>>>>>>>>>> which >>>> Paul >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Barth is a striking example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker >>>>>>> consciously, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> indeed, but with a false consciousness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM, Martin John Packer >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia attributes the phase to Engels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Douglas Williams >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The term false consciousness is from Walter Benjamin in a >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1930 >>>>>>> review >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Kracauer's Die Angestellten, drawing from Marx. The >>>> idea in >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marx >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is described in terms of alienation and estrangement from >>>>>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>> objects >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> activity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.ht >>>> m >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 5:14 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic >>>> interactionism >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom, so far as I know, the term "false consciousness" was >>>> invented >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> feminists in the 1970s and was never used by Marx, and I >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>> think >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> concept is consistent with his ideas, as expressed in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Theses >>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Feuerbach which you quoted, for example. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Richardson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... In the first place, it should be noted that Marx, like >>>> Spinoza >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> later >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freud, believed that most of what men consciously think is >>>> "false" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, is ideology and rationalization; that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mainsprings >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of man's actions are unconscious to him. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ________________________________ >>> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] >>> >>> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. >>> >> >> > > From compernolle@gmail.com Tue Apr 8 04:24:55 2014 From: compernolle@gmail.com (=?windows-1252?Q?=22R=E9mi_A=2E_van_Compernolle=22?=) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 07:24:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> David, Alex: Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer?s gestures would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow?s work) as well as in second language learning (including Alex?s work). I think this might be something for your students to explore in their investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial learning through to some kind of ?competent? performance (whatever that might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of mediating dialogue performance? Adam R?mi A. van Compernolle Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and Francophone Studies Department of Modern Languages Carnegie Mellon University Baker Hall A60M 412-268-1122 On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough wrote: > David, > > Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with > a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was > only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. > > I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I think > your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that > occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her > rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting > rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important > "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation > but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point (rhythmic > point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled with a > "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but > we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the > camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in > capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm > quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and > the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a > second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we break > it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown > that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those downward > strokes. > > So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and > communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an > embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic > expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new > for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in > meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree > with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. > > Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. > > Alex Rosborough > Brigham Young University > > > > On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: > >> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which >> children use their hands when they speak English. >> >> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will >> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when >> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come >> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent >> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more >> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a >> notable improvement in intonation. >> >> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene >> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see >> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go >> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she >> places her hand low. >> >> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, >> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; >> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's >> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> >> >> . > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 8 08:25:09 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 08:25:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: CARTA Symposium: Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution - airing on UCSD-TV next week! In-Reply-To: <016701cf533c$34cb8510$9e628f30$@ucsd.edu> References: <01be01cf5047$14ae96c0$3e0bc440$@ucsd.edu> <01d701cf5048$298875b0$7c996110$@ucsd.edu> <016701cf533c$34cb8510$9e628f30$@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: If you can get access, this program should be of interest. mike T he public symposium on "Birth Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution," which took place on February 21, 2014, will be airing on UCSD-TV* next week. The premiere air dates are listed below, along with links to the complete TV schedule for each show. Videos of these same presentations will become available online at UCSD-TVa few days after they air on TV and can be found by clicking on the links below. There you will also find links to the CARTAwebsite, iTunes , and YouTube where the videos can be subsequently viewed. We hope you enjoy this replay of the CARTA symposium on childrearing in human evolution, in one form or the other. Please let us know if you encounter any difficulties in either locating or viewing the presentations. Thank you. Sincerely, Ingrid Benirschke-Perkins CARTA, Community Relations Director *UCSD-TV airs on Cox and Time Warner (Digital) Ch.135, Time Warner Del Mar (Analog) Ch.19, AT&T U-verse Ch.99; and UHF (no cable) Ch.35. *Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution* *First air date: April 14 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* Birth and the Newborn Infant, Infant State in Apes and Humans, and Born Human: How the Utterly Dependent Survive Talks by Wenda Trevathan, Kim Bard, and Sarah Blaffer Hrdy http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28016 *First air date: April 21 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* Breast Milk and Breastfeeding, Oxytocin Pathways and Human Evolution, and Hunter-Gatherer Childhood and Human Evolution Talks by Katie Hinde, Sue Carter, and Melvin Konner http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28017 *First air date: April 28 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* Sharing Childcare and Knowledge in Infancy, Grandmothers and the Extended Family, and Human Fathers Talks by Barry Hewlett, Kristen Hawkes, and Hillard Kaplan http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28018 From smago@uga.edu Tue Apr 8 08:35:02 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:35:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] AERA Sylvia Scribner Award Message-ID: The AERA Sylvia Scribner Award winner for 2014 is Elena Grigorenko. From ewall@umich.edu Tue Apr 8 09:14:22 2014 From: ewall@umich.edu (Ed Wall) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 11:14:22 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is a video with Elena Bodorva (I think titled Tools of the Mind) that shows a child refining (with instruction his pointing as a means to competently perform ordinal arithmetic. There is (or perhaps should be) a lot of gesturing in early mathematics. Ed On Apr 8, 2014, at 6:24 AM, R?mi A. van Compernolle wrote: > David, Alex: > > Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer?s gestures would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow?s work) as well as in second language learning (including Alex?s work). > > I think this might be something for your students to explore in their investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial learning through to some kind of ?competent? performance (whatever that might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of mediating dialogue performance? > > Adam > > R?mi A. van Compernolle > Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and Francophone Studies > Department of Modern Languages > Carnegie Mellon University > Baker Hall A60M > 412-268-1122 > > > > On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough wrote: > >> David, >> >> Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with >> a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was >> only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. >> >> I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I think >> your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that >> occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her >> rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting >> rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important >> "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation >> but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point (rhythmic >> point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled with a >> "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but >> we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the >> camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in >> capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm >> quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and >> the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a >> second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we break >> it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown >> that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those downward >> strokes. >> >> So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and >> communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an >> embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic >> expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new >> for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in >> meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree >> with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. >> >> Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. >> >> Alex Rosborough >> Brigham Young University >> >> >> >> On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: >> >>> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which >>> children use their hands when they speak English. >>> >>> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will >>> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when >>> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come >>> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent >>> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more >>> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a >>> notable improvement in intonation. >>> >>> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene >>> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see >>> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go >>> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she >>> places her hand low. >>> >>> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, >>> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; >>> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's >>> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 >>> >>> David Kellogg >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>> >>> >>> >>> . >> >> > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 10:29:14 2014 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 17:29:14 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: CARTA Symposium: Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution - airing on UCSD-TV next week! In-Reply-To: References: <01be01cf5047$14ae96c0$3e0bc440$@ucsd.edu> <01d701cf5048$298875b0$7c996110$@ucsd.edu> <016701cf533c$34cb8510$9e628f30$@ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013ECBB3@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Many thanks for these links, Mike. I really enjoyed Melvin Konner's book - 'The Evolution of Childhood' and Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's 'Mothers and Others' so I will be looking out for their talks - the others look very promising too! Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 08 April 2014 16:25 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: CARTA Symposium: Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution - airing on UCSD-TV next week! If you can get access, this program should be of interest. mike T he public symposium on "Birth Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution," which took place on February 21, 2014, will be airing on UCSD-TV* next week. The premiere air dates are listed below, along with links to the complete TV schedule for each show. Videos of these same presentations will become available online at UCSD-TVa few days after they air on TV and can be found by clicking on the links below. There you will also find links to the CARTAwebsite, iTunes , and YouTube where the videos can be subsequently viewed. We hope you enjoy this replay of the CARTA symposium on childrearing in human evolution, in one form or the other. Please let us know if you encounter any difficulties in either locating or viewing the presentations. Thank you. Sincerely, Ingrid Benirschke-Perkins CARTA, Community Relations Director *UCSD-TV airs on Cox and Time Warner (Digital) Ch.135, Time Warner Del Mar (Analog) Ch.19, AT&T U-verse Ch.99; and UHF (no cable) Ch.35. *Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution* *First air date: April 14 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* Birth and the Newborn Infant, Infant State in Apes and Humans, and Born Human: How the Utterly Dependent Survive Talks by Wenda Trevathan, Kim Bard, and Sarah Blaffer Hrdy http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28016 *First air date: April 21 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* Breast Milk and Breastfeeding, Oxytocin Pathways and Human Evolution, and Hunter-Gatherer Childhood and Human Evolution Talks by Katie Hinde, Sue Carter, and Melvin Konner http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28017 *First air date: April 28 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* Sharing Childcare and Knowledge in Infancy, Grandmothers and the Extended Family, and Human Fathers Talks by Barry Hewlett, Kristen Hawkes, and Hillard Kaplan http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28018 ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 8 11:14:45 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 11:14:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: CARTA Symposium: Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution - airing on UCSD-TV next week! In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013ECBB3@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <01be01cf5047$14ae96c0$3e0bc440$@ucsd.edu> <01d701cf5048$298875b0$7c996110$@ucsd.edu> <016701cf533c$34cb8510$9e628f30$@ucsd.edu> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC311013ECBB3@TIS104.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: It's a great CHAT topic Mike On Tuesday, April 8, 2014, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > Many thanks for these links, Mike. > > I really enjoyed Melvin Konner's book - 'The Evolution of Childhood' and > Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's 'Mothers and Others' so I will be looking out for > their talks - the others look very promising too! > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu ] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 08 April 2014 16:25 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; lchc-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: CARTA Symposium: Birth to Grandmotherhood: > Childrearing in Human Evolution - airing on UCSD-TV next week! > > If you can get access, this program should be of interest. > mike > > T > he public symposium on "Birth Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human > Evolution," which took place on February 21, 2014, will be airing on > UCSD-TV* next week. The premiere air dates are listed below, along with > links to the complete TV schedule for each show. > > > > Videos of these same presentations will become available online at UCSD-TV< > http://www.ucsd.tv/carta/>a few days after they air on TV and can be > found by clicking on the links below. There you will also find links to the > CARTAwebsite, > iTunes , and > YouTube > where the videos can be subsequently viewed. > > > > We hope you enjoy this replay of the CARTA symposium on childrearing in > human evolution, in one form or the other. Please let us know if you > encounter any difficulties in either locating or viewing the presentations. > Thank you. > > > > Sincerely, > > Ingrid Benirschke-Perkins > > CARTA, Community Relations Director > > > > > > *UCSD-TV airs on Cox and Time Warner (Digital) Ch.135, Time Warner Del Mar > (Analog) Ch.19, AT&T U-verse Ch.99; and UHF (no cable) Ch.35. > > > > > > *Birth to Grandmotherhood: Childrearing in Human Evolution* > > > > *First air date: April 14 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* > > Birth and the Newborn Infant, Infant State in Apes and Humans, and Born > Human: How the Utterly Dependent Survive > > Talks by Wenda Trevathan, Kim Bard, and Sarah Blaffer Hrdy > > http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28016 > > > > *First air date: April 21 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* > > Breast Milk and Breastfeeding, Oxytocin Pathways and Human Evolution, and > Hunter-Gatherer Childhood and Human Evolution > > Talks by Katie Hinde, Sue Carter, and Melvin Konner > > http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28017 > > > > *First air date: April 28 (Mon) at 1 pm PT* > > Sharing Childcare and Knowledge in Infancy, Grandmothers and the Extended > Family, and Human Fathers > > Talks by Barry Hewlett, Kristen Hawkes, and Hillard Kaplan > > http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=28018 > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > From smago@uga.edu Tue Apr 8 12:22:56 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 19:22:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] found while looking for something else Message-ID: http://www.learninglandscapes.ca/images/documents/ll-no11.pdf open-access journal, special themed issue on creativity From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Apr 8 15:05:02 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 15:05:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Martin last year referenced Elena's work on language AS gesture. Here is here abstract describing her doctoral thesis. She has now moved to Spain and continuing her studies on gesture WITH A TEAM OF SCHOLARS exploring this theme A DISSERTATION Presented to the Department of Philosophy and the Graduate School of the University of Oregon in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy December 2011 ii DISSERTATION APPROVAL PAGE Student: Elena Clare Cuffari Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition This dissertation has been accepted and approved in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the Doctor of Philosophy degree in the Department of Philosophy by: Mark Johnson Chairperson Ted Toadvine Member Naomi Zack Member Eric Pederson Outside Member and Kimberly Andrews Espy Vice President for Research & Innovation/Dean of the Graduate School Original approval signatures are on file with the University of Oregon Graduate School. Degree awarded December 2011 iii (c) 2011 Elena Clare Cuffari iv DISSERTATION ABSTRACT Elena Clare Cuffari Doctor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy December 2011 Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition This dissertation stages a reciprocal critique between traditional and marginal philosophical approaches to language on the one hand and interdisciplinary studies of speech-accompanying hand gestures on the other. Gesturing with the hands while speaking is a ubiquitous, cross-cultural human practice. Yet this practice is complex, varied, conventional, nonconventional, and above all under-theorized. In light of the theoretical and empirical treatments of language and gesture that I engage in, I argue that the hand gestures that spontaneously accompany speech are a part of language; more specifically, they are enactments of linguistic meaning. They are simultaneously (acts of) cognition and communication. Human communication and cognition are what they are in part because of this practice of gesturing. This argument has profound implications for philosophy, for gesture studies, and for interdisciplinary work to come. As further, strong proof of the pervasively embodied way that humans make meaning in language, reflection on gestural phenomena calls for a complete re-orientation in traditional analytic philosophy of language. Yet philosophical awareness of intersubjectivity and normativity as conditions of meaning achievement is well-deployed in elaborating and refining the minimal theoretical apparatus of present-day gesture studies. Triangulating between the most social, communicative philosophies of meaning v and the most nuanced, reflective treatments of co-speech hand gesture, I articulate a new construal of language as embodied, world-embedded, intersubjectively normative, dynamic, multi-modal enacting of appropriative disclosure. Spontaneous co-speech gestures, while being indeed spontaneous, are nonetheless informed in various ways by conventions that they appropriate and deploy. Through this appropriation and deployment speakers enact, rather than represent, meaning, and they do so in various linguistic modalities. Seen thusly, gestures provide philosophers with a unique new perspective on the paradoxical determined-yet-free nature of all human meaning. vi CURRICULUM VITAE NAME OF AUTHOR: Elena Clare Cuffari GRADUATE AND UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOLS ATTENDED: University of Oregon, Eugene, OR Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA Oxford University, Oxford, England, UK DEGREES AWARDED: Doctor of Philosophy, Philosophy, 2011, University of Oregon On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Ed Wall wrote: > There is a video with Elena Bodorva (I think titled Tools of the Mind) > that shows a child refining (with instruction his pointing as a means to > competently perform ordinal arithmetic. There is (or perhaps should be) a > lot of gesturing in early mathematics. > > Ed > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 6:24 AM, R?mi A. van Compernolle wrote: > > > David, Alex: > > > > Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer's gestures > would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their > qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of > interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the > object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow's work) as well as > in second language learning (including Alex's work). > > > > I think this might be something for your students to explore in their > investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, > i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and > their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial > learning through to some kind of "competent" performance (whatever that > might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of > mediating dialogue performance? > > > > Adam > > > > R?mi A. van Compernolle > > Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and > Francophone Studies > > Department of Modern Languages > > Carnegie Mellon University > > Baker Hall A60M > > 412-268-1122 > > > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough > wrote: > > > >> David, > >> > >> Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with > >> a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was > >> only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. > >> > >> I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I > think > >> your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that > >> occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her > >> rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting > >> rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important > >> "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation > >> but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point > (rhythmic > >> point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled > with a > >> "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but > >> we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the > >> camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in > >> capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm > >> quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and > >> the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a > >> second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we > break > >> it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown > >> that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those > downward > >> strokes. > >> > >> So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and > >> communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an > >> embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic > >> expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new > >> for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in > >> meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree > >> with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. > >> > >> Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. > >> > >> Alex Rosborough > >> Brigham Young University > >> > >> > >> > >> On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: > >> > >>> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which > >>> children use their hands when they speak English. > >>> > >>> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will > >>> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when > >>> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come > >>> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent > >>> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more > >>> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a > >>> notable improvement in intonation. > >>> > >>> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene > >>> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see > >>> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go > >>> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she > >>> places her hand low. > >>> > >>> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, > >>> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; > >>> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's > >>> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> . > >> > >> > > > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Apr 8 16:11:21 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 08:11:21 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Alex: Yes, you're absolutely right; we can't have melody without rhythm too The conductor (Evilino Pido) and the singer (Natalie Dessay) are very well coordinated. In SOME cases (e.g. when Natalie looks up at Evelino through those great green eyes at the end of a phrase), the coordination is quite obviously inter-personal, that is, a matter of what Treverthenan calls primary intersubjectivity. But in other cases (e.g. when Evilino left hand rises within a tenth of a second of the moment that Natalie's right hand rises) they are both orienting to the beat, and we have to call this secondary intersubjectivity. Adam raises the issue which I think explains this distinction perfectly when he conducts the thought experiment of seeing how the gestures change from rehearsal to performance. This isn't just a thought experiment; it's exactly what my student Kim Donggyun did, and I'll tell you about what he found in a moment. But for interpreting this clip, I think that the distinction we want isn't rehearsal to performance. What the clip shows is a RECORDING, not an operatic performance on stage, and as Natalie explains, witih a recording you concentrate entirely on getting the musical phrasing perfectly and you don't bother to try to act. That means that Natalie is really just conducting herself as part of the orchestra and not part of the cast, and that means that there is more interpersonal coordination, more primary intersubjectivity, than you would find in a stage performance, where the singers must interact with each other and above all with the script rather than with the orchestra and the conductor.(You can see something of this if you compare the earliest filmed operatic performances in the sixties and seventies with operatic performances today, or if you compare contemporary Chinese opera with western opera. In the sixties and seventies, and in Chinese opera, the singer is a musician first and a character second; in current Western performances it's the other way around.) I find this exquisite--because it is so very Brechtian. In our day of versimilitude and "method" acting, and in our cinema of "realistic" three dimension animation and computer generated graphics, it is hard to remember that one of the main purposes of art is to hold experience at arms length and contemplate it as artifice. So I actually find Natalie recording even more expressive--or perhaps I should say contemplative--than the mimetic Natalie on stage. Adam wonders if the gesture would disappear into the intonation as the children in our experiment get more fluent. What I can tell you is that the children WANTED that to happen, and that is why they locked their hands behind their backs. The other thing they did was to look at the floor during role plays rather than at each other or into air (as they tried to remember the words they were supposed to say). This kind of dispassionate recital was a kind of model of adult expertise, whereas flailing with their hands or search the air (or the whiteboard) for vocabulary was considered undignified. (We also found some evidence that the children were RIGHT in this judgment--when we translated the role plays into Korean and had them performed by absolute beginners in the Korean language in Australia, we found that there was MORE gesturing, even though the children were slightly older. So gesturing--or at least non-volitional gesturing--really was a symptom of helplessness. The gesturing did not, however, disappear. As soon as we told the children they couldn't lock their hands behind their back and we docked them points for looking at the floor, we found them gesturing again. Interestingly, though, we did find that as the children got older and more confident (we compared third graders and fifth graders in elementary school), the gestures changed qualitatively rather than quantitatively--they became much better coordinated with the stresses of what they said and they also better reflected the intonation. We also used Praat software to see if taught gestures would improve timing and intonation, and we found that, within certain limits, they did. Larry brings up the issue of "co-speech" and "embodied" communication that is raised in McNeiil's boooks ("Hand and Mind", "Gesture and Thought") and also the work of Goldin-Meadow. I have a number of objections to this work which I still haven't quite sorted out in my mind: a) All of this work really rejects the idea of internalization, and with it, mediation. b) Gesture has to co-evolve with speech; it never disappears into it. So we cannot have a theory of WRITTEN speech, and we cannot explain the close link between intonation and gesture or between intonation and information. c) The "Growth Point" that McNeill proposes as a substitute for the ZPD doesn't seem to me to distinguish between learning and development. I think, to tie this to previous threads, that "co-speech" and "embodied" communication fits too easily into a theory of language that is based on the INDIVIDUAL (specifically, the indivdual body) rather than the social. I think, actually, the Gilbert/Magnus/Gibson theory of direct perception of phonemes is a perfect illustration of why this doesn't work. If the key to the meaning of segments were in the body itself, the Tower of Babel would be nothing but a myth; we would all speak the same language, and it would be English. (Vygotsky, as usual, has a better idea--see HDHMF, p. 128! He says that the ultimate basis for word meanings really is "literal", but it is some kind of graphic-visual image which is then generalized and abstracted. So, for example, "I stand on firm ground" would once mean that your boots were dirty, and it still gives us a tiny glance at dirty boots today, before opening out into the wider and even more cultural vista of metaphor. But while the image we have in our heads feels visual and co-extensive with the body, it is culturally generated, as the very word "literal" implies!) David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 9 April 2014 07:05, Larry Purss wrote: > Martin last year referenced Elena's work on language AS gesture. > Here is here abstract describing her doctoral thesis. > > She has now moved to Spain and continuing her studies on gesture WITH A > TEAM OF SCHOLARS exploring this theme > > > A DISSERTATION > > Presented to the Department of Philosophy and the Graduate School of the > University of Oregon in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the > degree of > > Doctor of Philosophy > > December 2011 > > ii > > DISSERTATION APPROVAL PAGE > > Student: Elena Clare Cuffari > > Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition > > This dissertation has been accepted and approved in partial fulfillment of > the requirements for the Doctor of Philosophy degree in the Department of > Philosophy by: > > Mark Johnson Chairperson Ted Toadvine Member Naomi Zack Member > > Eric Pederson Outside Member > > and > > Kimberly Andrews Espy Vice President for Research & Innovation/Dean of the > > Graduate School > > Original approval signatures are on file with the University of Oregon > Graduate School. > > Degree awarded December 2011 > > iii > > (c) 2011 Elena Clare Cuffari > > iv > > DISSERTATION ABSTRACT > > Elena Clare Cuffari > > Doctor of Philosophy > > Department of Philosophy > > December 2011 > > Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition > > This dissertation stages a reciprocal critique between traditional and > marginal > > philosophical approaches to language on the one hand and interdisciplinary > studies of speech-accompanying hand gestures on the other. Gesturing with > the hands while speaking is a ubiquitous, cross-cultural human practice. > Yet this practice is complex, varied, conventional, nonconventional, and > above all under-theorized. In light of the theoretical and empirical > treatments of language and gesture that I engage in, I argue that the hand > gestures that spontaneously accompany speech are a part of language; more > specifically, they are enactments of linguistic meaning. They are > simultaneously (acts of) cognition and communication. Human communication > and cognition are what they are in part because of this practice of > gesturing. This argument has profound implications for philosophy, for > gesture studies, and for interdisciplinary work to come. > > As further, strong proof of the pervasively embodied way that humans make > meaning in language, reflection on gestural phenomena calls for a complete > re-orientation in traditional analytic philosophy of language. Yet > philosophical awareness of intersubjectivity and normativity as conditions > of meaning achievement is well-deployed in elaborating and refining the > minimal theoretical apparatus of present-day gesture studies. Triangulating > between the most social, communicative philosophies of meaning > > v > > and the most nuanced, reflective treatments of co-speech hand gesture, I > articulate a new construal of language as embodied, world-embedded, > intersubjectively normative, dynamic, multi-modal enacting of appropriative > disclosure. Spontaneous co-speech gestures, while being indeed spontaneous, > are nonetheless informed in various ways by conventions that they > appropriate and deploy. Through this appropriation and deployment speakers > enact, rather than represent, meaning, and they do so in various linguistic > modalities. Seen thusly, gestures provide philosophers with a unique new > perspective on the paradoxical determined-yet-free nature of all human > meaning. > > vi > > CURRICULUM VITAE > > NAME OF AUTHOR: Elena Clare Cuffari > > GRADUATE AND UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOLS ATTENDED: > > University of Oregon, Eugene, OR > > Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA > > Oxford University, Oxford, England, UK > > DEGREES AWARDED: > > Doctor of Philosophy, Philosophy, 2011, University of Oregon > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Ed Wall wrote: > >> There is a video with Elena Bodorva (I think titled Tools of the Mind) >> that shows a child refining (with instruction his pointing as a means to >> competently perform ordinal arithmetic. There is (or perhaps should be) a >> lot of gesturing in early mathematics. >> >> Ed >> >> On Apr 8, 2014, at 6:24 AM, R?mi A. van Compernolle wrote: >> >> > David, Alex: >> > >> > Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer's gestures >> would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their >> qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of >> interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the >> object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow's work) as well as >> in second language learning (including Alex's work). >> > >> > I think this might be something for your students to explore in their >> investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, >> i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and >> their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial >> learning through to some kind of "competent" performance (whatever that >> might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of >> mediating dialogue performance? >> > >> > Adam >> > >> > R?mi A. van Compernolle >> > Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and >> Francophone Studies >> > Department of Modern Languages >> > Carnegie Mellon University >> > Baker Hall A60M >> > 412-268-1122 >> > >> > >> > >> > On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough >> wrote: >> > >> >> David, >> >> >> >> Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with >> >> a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was >> >> only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. >> >> >> >> I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I >> think >> >> your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that >> >> occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her >> >> rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting >> >> rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important >> >> "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation >> >> but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point >> (rhythmic >> >> point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled >> with a >> >> "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but >> >> we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the >> >> camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in >> >> capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm >> >> quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and >> >> the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a >> >> second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we >> break >> >> it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown >> >> that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those >> downward >> >> strokes. >> >> >> >> So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and >> >> communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an >> >> embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic >> >> expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new >> >> for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in >> >> meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree >> >> with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. >> >> >> >> Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. >> >> >> >> Alex Rosborough >> >> Brigham Young University >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: >> >> >> >>> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which >> >>> children use their hands when they speak English. >> >>> >> >>> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will >> >>> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when >> >>> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come >> >>> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent >> >>> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more >> >>> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a >> >>> notable improvement in intonation. >> >>> >> >>> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene >> >>> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see >> >>> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go >> >>> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she >> >>> places her hand low. >> >>> >> >>> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, >> >>> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; >> >>> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's >> >>> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! >> >>> >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 >> >>> >> >>> David Kellogg >> >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> . >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> From compernolle@gmail.com Wed Apr 9 04:46:28 2014 From: compernolle@gmail.com (=?windows-1252?Q?=22R=E9mi_A=2E_van_Compernolle=22?=) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 07:46:28 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting and provocative comments, as always, David. A small clarification and then a question. I didn?t suggest that gesture would disappear, only that gesture qualities change, transform, etc. over time. Maybe some disappear some times in some contexts (e.g. if not needed anymore, internalization, etc.) but it?s pretty hard to image gesture going away altogether, which is McNeill?s point I think (small beats, flicks of the wrist, head movements, etc. are virtually always present). And the question: I don?t understand your critique of the growth point hypothesis in McNeill?s work. I don?t think he proposed it as a substitute for the ZPD, as you say, or as anything having to do with learning or development. My understanding is that it is how he defines the unit of analysis for speech-gesture activity (i.e. the point of synchronization of the stroke of a gesture and a verbal constituent), and the theory is that the growth point represents the psychological predicate of the speaker. The link to the ZPD concepts it seems is in work that extends McNeill?s approach to education, learning, development, etc., where growth points may?but not always?provide evidence that some kind of developmental process is taking place, but of course, that has to be argued empirically, case by case. You can?t, I think, simply say that since there?s a growth point, someone is learning or developing, which is what I think you said somewhere in that message. Adam R?mi A. van Compernolle Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and Francophone Studies Department of Modern Languages Carnegie Mellon University Baker Hall A60M 412-268-1122 On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > Alex: Yes, you're absolutely right; we can't have melody without > rhythm too The conductor (Evilino Pido) and the singer (Natalie > Dessay) are very well coordinated. In SOME cases (e.g. when Natalie > looks up at Evelino through those great green eyes at the end of a > phrase), the coordination is quite obviously inter-personal, that is, > a matter of what Treverthenan calls primary intersubjectivity. But in > other cases (e.g. when Evilino left hand rises within a tenth of a > second of the moment that Natalie's right hand rises) they are both > orienting to the beat, and we have to call this secondary > intersubjectivity. > > Adam raises the issue which I think explains this distinction > perfectly when he conducts the thought experiment of seeing how the > gestures change from rehearsal to performance. This isn't just a > thought experiment; it's exactly what my student Kim Donggyun did, and > I'll tell you about what he found in a moment. But for interpreting > this clip, I think that the distinction we want isn't rehearsal to > performance. What the clip shows is a RECORDING, not an operatic > performance on stage, and as Natalie explains, witih a recording you > concentrate entirely on getting the musical phrasing perfectly and you > don't bother to try to act. That means that Natalie is really just > conducting herself as part of the orchestra and not part of the cast, > and that means that there is more interpersonal coordination, more > primary intersubjectivity, than you would find in a stage performance, > where the singers must interact with each other and above all with the > script rather than with the orchestra and the conductor.(You can see > something of this if you compare the earliest filmed operatic > performances in the sixties and seventies with operatic performances > today, or if you compare contemporary Chinese opera with western > opera. In the sixties and seventies, and in Chinese opera, the singer > is a musician first and a character second; in current Western > performances it's the other way around.) > > I find this exquisite--because it is so very Brechtian. In our day of > versimilitude and "method" acting, and in our cinema of "realistic" > three dimension animation and computer generated graphics, it is hard > to remember that one of the main purposes of art is to hold experience > at arms length and contemplate it as artifice. So I actually find > Natalie recording even more expressive--or perhaps I should say > contemplative--than the mimetic Natalie on stage. > > Adam wonders if the gesture would disappear into the intonation as the > children in our experiment get more fluent. What I can tell you is > that the children WANTED that to happen, and that is why they locked > their hands behind their backs. The other thing they did was to look > at the floor during role plays rather than at each other or into air > (as they tried to remember the words they were supposed to say). This > kind of dispassionate recital was a kind of model of adult expertise, > whereas flailing with their hands or search the air (or the > whiteboard) for vocabulary was considered undignified. (We also found > some evidence that the children were RIGHT in this judgment--when we > translated the role plays into Korean and had them performed by > absolute beginners in the Korean language in Australia, we found that > there was MORE gesturing, even though the children were slightly > older. So gesturing--or at least non-volitional gesturing--really was > a symptom of helplessness. > > The gesturing did not, however, disappear. As soon as we told the > children they couldn't lock their hands behind their back and we > docked them points for looking at the floor, we found them gesturing > again. Interestingly, though, we did find that as the children got > older and more confident (we compared third graders and fifth graders > in elementary school), the gestures changed qualitatively rather than > quantitatively--they became much better coordinated with the stresses > of what they said and they also better reflected the intonation. We > also used Praat software to see if taught gestures would improve > timing and intonation, and we found that, within certain limits, they > did. > > Larry brings up the issue of "co-speech" and "embodied" communication > that is raised in McNeiil's boooks ("Hand and Mind", "Gesture and > Thought") and also the work of Goldin-Meadow. I have a number of > objections to this work which I still haven't quite sorted out in my > mind: > > a) All of this work really rejects the idea of internalization, and > with it, mediation. > > b) Gesture has to co-evolve with speech; it never disappears into it. > So we cannot have a theory of WRITTEN speech, and we cannot explain > the close link between intonation and gesture or between intonation > and information. > > c) The "Growth Point" that McNeill proposes as a substitute for the > ZPD doesn't seem to me to distinguish between learning and > development. > > I think, to tie this to previous threads, that "co-speech" and > "embodied" communication fits too easily into a theory of language > that is based on the INDIVIDUAL (specifically, the indivdual body) > rather than the social. I think, actually, the Gilbert/Magnus/Gibson > theory of direct perception of phonemes is a perfect illustration of > why this doesn't work. If the key to the meaning of segments were in > the body itself, the Tower of Babel would be nothing but a myth; we > would all speak the same language, and it would be English. > > (Vygotsky, as usual, has a better idea--see HDHMF, p. 128! He says > that the ultimate basis for word meanings really is "literal", but it > is some kind of graphic-visual image which is then generalized and > abstracted. So, for example, "I stand on firm ground" would once mean > that your boots were dirty, and it still gives us a tiny glance at > dirty boots today, before opening out into the wider and even more > cultural vista of metaphor. But while the image we have in our heads > feels visual and co-extensive with the body, it is culturally > generated, as the very word "literal" implies!) > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 9 April 2014 07:05, Larry Purss wrote: >> Martin last year referenced Elena's work on language AS gesture. >> Here is here abstract describing her doctoral thesis. >> >> She has now moved to Spain and continuing her studies on gesture WITH A >> TEAM OF SCHOLARS exploring this theme >> >> >> A DISSERTATION >> >> Presented to the Department of Philosophy and the Graduate School of the >> University of Oregon in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the >> degree of >> >> Doctor of Philosophy >> >> December 2011 >> >> ii >> >> DISSERTATION APPROVAL PAGE >> >> Student: Elena Clare Cuffari >> >> Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition >> >> This dissertation has been accepted and approved in partial fulfillment of >> the requirements for the Doctor of Philosophy degree in the Department of >> Philosophy by: >> >> Mark Johnson Chairperson Ted Toadvine Member Naomi Zack Member >> >> Eric Pederson Outside Member >> >> and >> >> Kimberly Andrews Espy Vice President for Research & Innovation/Dean of the >> >> Graduate School >> >> Original approval signatures are on file with the University of Oregon >> Graduate School. >> >> Degree awarded December 2011 >> >> iii >> >> (c) 2011 Elena Clare Cuffari >> >> iv >> >> DISSERTATION ABSTRACT >> >> Elena Clare Cuffari >> >> Doctor of Philosophy >> >> Department of Philosophy >> >> December 2011 >> >> Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition >> >> This dissertation stages a reciprocal critique between traditional and >> marginal >> >> philosophical approaches to language on the one hand and interdisciplinary >> studies of speech-accompanying hand gestures on the other. Gesturing with >> the hands while speaking is a ubiquitous, cross-cultural human practice. >> Yet this practice is complex, varied, conventional, nonconventional, and >> above all under-theorized. In light of the theoretical and empirical >> treatments of language and gesture that I engage in, I argue that the hand >> gestures that spontaneously accompany speech are a part of language; more >> specifically, they are enactments of linguistic meaning. They are >> simultaneously (acts of) cognition and communication. Human communication >> and cognition are what they are in part because of this practice of >> gesturing. This argument has profound implications for philosophy, for >> gesture studies, and for interdisciplinary work to come. >> >> As further, strong proof of the pervasively embodied way that humans make >> meaning in language, reflection on gestural phenomena calls for a complete >> re-orientation in traditional analytic philosophy of language. Yet >> philosophical awareness of intersubjectivity and normativity as conditions >> of meaning achievement is well-deployed in elaborating and refining the >> minimal theoretical apparatus of present-day gesture studies. Triangulating >> between the most social, communicative philosophies of meaning >> >> v >> >> and the most nuanced, reflective treatments of co-speech hand gesture, I >> articulate a new construal of language as embodied, world-embedded, >> intersubjectively normative, dynamic, multi-modal enacting of appropriative >> disclosure. Spontaneous co-speech gestures, while being indeed spontaneous, >> are nonetheless informed in various ways by conventions that they >> appropriate and deploy. Through this appropriation and deployment speakers >> enact, rather than represent, meaning, and they do so in various linguistic >> modalities. Seen thusly, gestures provide philosophers with a unique new >> perspective on the paradoxical determined-yet-free nature of all human >> meaning. >> >> vi >> >> CURRICULUM VITAE >> >> NAME OF AUTHOR: Elena Clare Cuffari >> >> GRADUATE AND UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOLS ATTENDED: >> >> University of Oregon, Eugene, OR >> >> Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA >> >> Oxford University, Oxford, England, UK >> >> DEGREES AWARDED: >> >> Doctor of Philosophy, Philosophy, 2011, University of Oregon >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Ed Wall wrote: >> >>> There is a video with Elena Bodorva (I think titled Tools of the Mind) >>> that shows a child refining (with instruction his pointing as a means to >>> competently perform ordinal arithmetic. There is (or perhaps should be) a >>> lot of gesturing in early mathematics. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> On Apr 8, 2014, at 6:24 AM, R?mi A. van Compernolle wrote: >>> >>>> David, Alex: >>>> >>>> Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer's gestures >>> would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their >>> qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of >>> interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the >>> object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow's work) as well as >>> in second language learning (including Alex's work). >>>> >>>> I think this might be something for your students to explore in their >>> investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, >>> i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and >>> their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial >>> learning through to some kind of "competent" performance (whatever that >>> might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of >>> mediating dialogue performance? >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> R?mi A. van Compernolle >>>> Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and >>> Francophone Studies >>>> Department of Modern Languages >>>> Carnegie Mellon University >>>> Baker Hall A60M >>>> 412-268-1122 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with >>>>> a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was >>>>> only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. >>>>> >>>>> I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I >>> think >>>>> your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that >>>>> occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her >>>>> rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting >>>>> rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important >>>>> "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation >>>>> but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point >>> (rhythmic >>>>> point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled >>> with a >>>>> "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but >>>>> we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the >>>>> camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in >>>>> capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm >>>>> quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and >>>>> the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a >>>>> second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we >>> break >>>>> it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown >>>>> that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those >>> downward >>>>> strokes. >>>>> >>>>> So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and >>>>> communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an >>>>> embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic >>>>> expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new >>>>> for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in >>>>> meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree >>>>> with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. >>>>> >>>>> Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. >>>>> >>>>> Alex Rosborough >>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which >>>>>> children use their hands when they speak English. >>>>>> >>>>>> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will >>>>>> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when >>>>>> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come >>>>>> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent >>>>>> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more >>>>>> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a >>>>>> notable improvement in intonation. >>>>>> >>>>>> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene >>>>>> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see >>>>>> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go >>>>>> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she >>>>>> places her hand low. >>>>>> >>>>>> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, >>>>>> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; >>>>>> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's >>>>>> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 >>>>>> >>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > From vygotsky@unm.edu Wed Apr 9 09:57:36 2014 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 10:57:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: found while looking for something else In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002a01cf5414$d01770f0$704652d0$@edu> Thanks, Peter. Cathrene and I enjoyed working on our chapter for this special issue, Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 1:23 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu); LEGO-L@listserv.uga.edu; LLE-L@listserv.uga.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] found while looking for something else http://www.learninglandscapes.ca/images/documents/ll-no11.pdf open-access journal, special themed issue on creativity From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Apr 9 10:27:29 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 10:27:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: found while looking for something else In-Reply-To: <002a01cf5414$d01770f0$704652d0$@edu> References: <002a01cf5414$d01770f0$704652d0$@edu> Message-ID: The book looks terrific, Peter. Thanks for forwarding. mike On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > Thanks, Peter. > Cathrene and I enjoyed working on our chapter for this special issue, > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 1:23 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity (xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu); > LEGO-L@listserv.uga.edu; LLE-L@listserv.uga.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] found while looking for something else > > http://www.learninglandscapes.ca/images/documents/ll-no11.pdf > open-access journal, special themed issue on creativity > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Wed Apr 9 14:38:32 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 06:38:32 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Adam: Yes, it was the kids who wanted the gestures to go away (not you). But to tell you the truth, I was rooting for them. In Korea, you take off your shoes when you enter the house. The role play has a child rushing off to school, and he asks his mother "Where are my shoes?" The principals are speaking English (just as Natalie Dessay is singing in Italian even though she is a French woman playing an English lady in "Lucia di Lammermoor"), and some of the kids want to pretend that when you speak English your personality morphs and you suddenly forget basic facts of Korean life, e.g. that you have to take your shoes off when you enter the house. So the long suffering mother sighs and explains that they are just where they always are, i.e. in the shoe cabinet by the threshold of the apartment. As we watched the videos of them locking their hands behind their backs to keep themselves from pointing to the door and struggling to say "Your shoes are by the door", it seemed to me that what was really at stake was not the disappearance of gesture but rather the graspture of conscious, deliberate control of gesture, and that they did this in classic Vygotskyan fashion, from the outside inwards, establishing control of their own behavior through outside means. That is, locking your hands behind your back to avoid gesturing is in itself a gesture, but it is self-directed gesture, a kind of string around your finger designed to remind you not to gesture. And where does the gesture go? It doesn't go into intonation, because the children do not intone so well when they are not using gesture. One place it goes is into lexicogrammar, and this does allow us to say something about written speech and how it differs from the spoken idiom. Some languages allow the process of internalization to continue well into the lexicogrammar, so for example Italian allows us to omit all kinds of subject pronouns, and French permits tri-transitives, neither of which is possible in English, but English allows an amazing degree of grammatical metaphor (e.g. "growth point" instead of "a point that grows"). Whether we say "Your shoes are in the cabinet by the threshold of the apartment" or "They're right over there" depends in large part on whether we can point with our hands or not. In this sense, the old joke about the Italian with a watermelon is quite a propos. (The joke, for those of you who have never heard it, is that an Italian carrying a watermelon is accosted somewhere in the vicinity of Trafalgar Square by an American tourist who is looking for the Nelson Column or the National Gallery--a pained expression crosses the Italian face, the lips begin to move but do not say anything, and finally the Italian turns in inarticulate frustration, places the watermelon in a passing baby carriage, and, with the free use of his hands, finds his voice again: "Its-a right over there!") McNeill is a Heideggerian Vygotskyan (see his discussion of his "H Model" in "Gesture and Thought", p. 101). This means, necessarily, that he rejects the concept of mediation, and with it the whole idea that the means of mediation disappears with its decontextualization/internalization. To me, that is what the "zone prochaine de de/veloppment" means; as Seth Chaiklin says, it's not about generalization, or about assistance, or even about awakening some kind of potential in the child but rather about the transformation of microgenesis into ontogenesis. That is what McNeill wants to do with the Growth Point, and that's why McNeill explicitly equates the Growth Point with the creation of inner speech "predicates". But the creation of inner speech 'predicates' happens in a specific "zone prochaine de de/veloppment" in Chapter Six of "Thinking and Speech". As I said, my objections to McNeill's objections are objections that I myself have not fully worked out. I think McNeill is one of a group of Vygotskyans who find themselves in the position of Isaac Newton after he discovered, in the process of trying to do away with a universe of "occult forces", that things really do act at a distance, else gravity is an inexplicable mystery. These post-Newtonian Vygotskyans find that the idea of mediation necessariliy imposes a kind of "theatre of the mind", which looks highly Cartesian to them, and so they try to work without it. You notice that McNeill does not use either the concept of mediation or the ZPD in his work. I don't have any trouble with a "theatre of the mind", so long as we can accept that it is just another transitional form of mediation, an imaginary construct like the imaginary friends and superheroes that children make up, a kind of gypsy caravan that passes on or a nomad's tent that melts into thin air in the process of development. The problem I have is that the concept of mediation then becomes too general and too abstract to be a concrete analytical category for any practical problem that I work with, including this one. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 9 April 2014 20:46, "R?mi A. van Compernolle" wrote: > Interesting and provocative comments, as always, David. A small clarification and then a question. > > I didn't suggest that gesture would disappear, only that gesture qualities change, transform, etc. over time. Maybe some disappear some times in some contexts (e.g. if not needed anymore, internalization, etc.) but it's pretty hard to image gesture going away altogether, which is McNeill's point I think (small beats, flicks of the wrist, head movements, etc. are virtually always present). > > And the question: I don't understand your critique of the growth point hypothesis in McNeill's work. I don't think he proposed it as a substitute for the ZPD, as you say, or as anything having to do with learning or development. My understanding is that it is how he defines the unit of analysis for speech-gesture activity (i.e. the point of synchronization of the stroke of a gesture and a verbal constituent), and the theory is that the growth point represents the psychological predicate of the speaker. The link to the ZPD concepts it seems is in work that extends McNeill's approach to education, learning, development, etc., where growth points may--but not always--provide evidence that some kind of developmental process is taking place, but of course, that has to be argued empirically, case by case. You can't, I think, simply say that since there's a growth point, someone is learning or developing, which is what I think you said somewhere in that message. > > Adam > > > R?mi A. van Compernolle > Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and Francophone Studies > Department of Modern Languages > Carnegie Mellon University > Baker Hall A60M > 412-268-1122 > > > > On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:11 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> Alex: Yes, you're absolutely right; we can't have melody without >> rhythm too The conductor (Evilino Pido) and the singer (Natalie >> Dessay) are very well coordinated. In SOME cases (e.g. when Natalie >> looks up at Evelino through those great green eyes at the end of a >> phrase), the coordination is quite obviously inter-personal, that is, >> a matter of what Treverthenan calls primary intersubjectivity. But in >> other cases (e.g. when Evilino left hand rises within a tenth of a >> second of the moment that Natalie's right hand rises) they are both >> orienting to the beat, and we have to call this secondary >> intersubjectivity. >> >> Adam raises the issue which I think explains this distinction >> perfectly when he conducts the thought experiment of seeing how the >> gestures change from rehearsal to performance. This isn't just a >> thought experiment; it's exactly what my student Kim Donggyun did, and >> I'll tell you about what he found in a moment. But for interpreting >> this clip, I think that the distinction we want isn't rehearsal to >> performance. What the clip shows is a RECORDING, not an operatic >> performance on stage, and as Natalie explains, witih a recording you >> concentrate entirely on getting the musical phrasing perfectly and you >> don't bother to try to act. That means that Natalie is really just >> conducting herself as part of the orchestra and not part of the cast, >> and that means that there is more interpersonal coordination, more >> primary intersubjectivity, than you would find in a stage performance, >> where the singers must interact with each other and above all with the >> script rather than with the orchestra and the conductor.(You can see >> something of this if you compare the earliest filmed operatic >> performances in the sixties and seventies with operatic performances >> today, or if you compare contemporary Chinese opera with western >> opera. In the sixties and seventies, and in Chinese opera, the singer >> is a musician first and a character second; in current Western >> performances it's the other way around.) >> >> I find this exquisite--because it is so very Brechtian. In our day of >> versimilitude and "method" acting, and in our cinema of "realistic" >> three dimension animation and computer generated graphics, it is hard >> to remember that one of the main purposes of art is to hold experience >> at arms length and contemplate it as artifice. So I actually find >> Natalie recording even more expressive--or perhaps I should say >> contemplative--than the mimetic Natalie on stage. >> >> Adam wonders if the gesture would disappear into the intonation as the >> children in our experiment get more fluent. What I can tell you is >> that the children WANTED that to happen, and that is why they locked >> their hands behind their backs. The other thing they did was to look >> at the floor during role plays rather than at each other or into air >> (as they tried to remember the words they were supposed to say). This >> kind of dispassionate recital was a kind of model of adult expertise, >> whereas flailing with their hands or search the air (or the >> whiteboard) for vocabulary was considered undignified. (We also found >> some evidence that the children were RIGHT in this judgment--when we >> translated the role plays into Korean and had them performed by >> absolute beginners in the Korean language in Australia, we found that >> there was MORE gesturing, even though the children were slightly >> older. So gesturing--or at least non-volitional gesturing--really was >> a symptom of helplessness. >> >> The gesturing did not, however, disappear. As soon as we told the >> children they couldn't lock their hands behind their back and we >> docked them points for looking at the floor, we found them gesturing >> again. Interestingly, though, we did find that as the children got >> older and more confident (we compared third graders and fifth graders >> in elementary school), the gestures changed qualitatively rather than >> quantitatively--they became much better coordinated with the stresses >> of what they said and they also better reflected the intonation. We >> also used Praat software to see if taught gestures would improve >> timing and intonation, and we found that, within certain limits, they >> did. >> >> Larry brings up the issue of "co-speech" and "embodied" communication >> that is raised in McNeiil's boooks ("Hand and Mind", "Gesture and >> Thought") and also the work of Goldin-Meadow. I have a number of >> objections to this work which I still haven't quite sorted out in my >> mind: >> >> a) All of this work really rejects the idea of internalization, and >> with it, mediation. >> >> b) Gesture has to co-evolve with speech; it never disappears into it. >> So we cannot have a theory of WRITTEN speech, and we cannot explain >> the close link between intonation and gesture or between intonation >> and information. >> >> c) The "Growth Point" that McNeill proposes as a substitute for the >> ZPD doesn't seem to me to distinguish between learning and >> development. >> >> I think, to tie this to previous threads, that "co-speech" and >> "embodied" communication fits too easily into a theory of language >> that is based on the INDIVIDUAL (specifically, the indivdual body) >> rather than the social. I think, actually, the Gilbert/Magnus/Gibson >> theory of direct perception of phonemes is a perfect illustration of >> why this doesn't work. If the key to the meaning of segments were in >> the body itself, the Tower of Babel would be nothing but a myth; we >> would all speak the same language, and it would be English. >> >> (Vygotsky, as usual, has a better idea--see HDHMF, p. 128! He says >> that the ultimate basis for word meanings really is "literal", but it >> is some kind of graphic-visual image which is then generalized and >> abstracted. So, for example, "I stand on firm ground" would once mean >> that your boots were dirty, and it still gives us a tiny glance at >> dirty boots today, before opening out into the wider and even more >> cultural vista of metaphor. But while the image we have in our heads >> feels visual and co-extensive with the body, it is culturally >> generated, as the very word "literal" implies!) >> >> David Kellogg >> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >> >> On 9 April 2014 07:05, Larry Purss wrote: >>> Martin last year referenced Elena's work on language AS gesture. >>> Here is here abstract describing her doctoral thesis. >>> >>> She has now moved to Spain and continuing her studies on gesture WITH A >>> TEAM OF SCHOLARS exploring this theme >>> >>> >>> A DISSERTATION >>> >>> Presented to the Department of Philosophy and the Graduate School of the >>> University of Oregon in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the >>> degree of >>> >>> Doctor of Philosophy >>> >>> December 2011 >>> >>> ii >>> >>> DISSERTATION APPROVAL PAGE >>> >>> Student: Elena Clare Cuffari >>> >>> Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition >>> >>> This dissertation has been accepted and approved in partial fulfillment of >>> the requirements for the Doctor of Philosophy degree in the Department of >>> Philosophy by: >>> >>> Mark Johnson Chairperson Ted Toadvine Member Naomi Zack Member >>> >>> Eric Pederson Outside Member >>> >>> and >>> >>> Kimberly Andrews Espy Vice President for Research & Innovation/Dean of the >>> >>> Graduate School >>> >>> Original approval signatures are on file with the University of Oregon >>> Graduate School. >>> >>> Degree awarded December 2011 >>> >>> iii >>> >>> (c) 2011 Elena Clare Cuffari >>> >>> iv >>> >>> DISSERTATION ABSTRACT >>> >>> Elena Clare Cuffari >>> >>> Doctor of Philosophy >>> >>> Department of Philosophy >>> >>> December 2011 >>> >>> Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition >>> >>> This dissertation stages a reciprocal critique between traditional and >>> marginal >>> >>> philosophical approaches to language on the one hand and interdisciplinary >>> studies of speech-accompanying hand gestures on the other. Gesturing with >>> the hands while speaking is a ubiquitous, cross-cultural human practice. >>> Yet this practice is complex, varied, conventional, nonconventional, and >>> above all under-theorized. In light of the theoretical and empirical >>> treatments of language and gesture that I engage in, I argue that the hand >>> gestures that spontaneously accompany speech are a part of language; more >>> specifically, they are enactments of linguistic meaning. They are >>> simultaneously (acts of) cognition and communication. Human communication >>> and cognition are what they are in part because of this practice of >>> gesturing. This argument has profound implications for philosophy, for >>> gesture studies, and for interdisciplinary work to come. >>> >>> As further, strong proof of the pervasively embodied way that humans make >>> meaning in language, reflection on gestural phenomena calls for a complete >>> re-orientation in traditional analytic philosophy of language. Yet >>> philosophical awareness of intersubjectivity and normativity as conditions >>> of meaning achievement is well-deployed in elaborating and refining the >>> minimal theoretical apparatus of present-day gesture studies. Triangulating >>> between the most social, communicative philosophies of meaning >>> >>> v >>> >>> and the most nuanced, reflective treatments of co-speech hand gesture, I >>> articulate a new construal of language as embodied, world-embedded, >>> intersubjectively normative, dynamic, multi-modal enacting of appropriative >>> disclosure. Spontaneous co-speech gestures, while being indeed spontaneous, >>> are nonetheless informed in various ways by conventions that they >>> appropriate and deploy. Through this appropriation and deployment speakers >>> enact, rather than represent, meaning, and they do so in various linguistic >>> modalities. Seen thusly, gestures provide philosophers with a unique new >>> perspective on the paradoxical determined-yet-free nature of all human >>> meaning. >>> >>> vi >>> >>> CURRICULUM VITAE >>> >>> NAME OF AUTHOR: Elena Clare Cuffari >>> >>> GRADUATE AND UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOLS ATTENDED: >>> >>> University of Oregon, Eugene, OR >>> >>> Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA >>> >>> Oxford University, Oxford, England, UK >>> >>> DEGREES AWARDED: >>> >>> Doctor of Philosophy, Philosophy, 2011, University of Oregon >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Ed Wall wrote: >>> >>>> There is a video with Elena Bodorva (I think titled Tools of the Mind) >>>> that shows a child refining (with instruction his pointing as a means to >>>> competently perform ordinal arithmetic. There is (or perhaps should be) a >>>> lot of gesturing in early mathematics. >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> On Apr 8, 2014, at 6:24 AM, R?mi A. van Compernolle wrote: >>>> >>>>> David, Alex: >>>>> >>>>> Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer's gestures >>>> would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their >>>> qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of >>>> interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the >>>> object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow's work) as well as >>>> in second language learning (including Alex's work). >>>>> >>>>> I think this might be something for your students to explore in their >>>> investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, >>>> i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and >>>> their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial >>>> learning through to some kind of "competent" performance (whatever that >>>> might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of >>>> mediating dialogue performance? >>>>> >>>>> Adam >>>>> >>>>> R?mi A. van Compernolle >>>>> Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and >>>> Francophone Studies >>>>> Department of Modern Languages >>>>> Carnegie Mellon University >>>>> Baker Hall A60M >>>>> 412-268-1122 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> David, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with >>>>>> a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was >>>>>> only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I >>>> think >>>>>> your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that >>>>>> occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her >>>>>> rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting >>>>>> rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important >>>>>> "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation >>>>>> but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point >>>> (rhythmic >>>>>> point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled >>>> with a >>>>>> "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but >>>>>> we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the >>>>>> camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in >>>>>> capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm >>>>>> quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and >>>>>> the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a >>>>>> second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we >>>> break >>>>>> it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown >>>>>> that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those >>>> downward >>>>>> strokes. >>>>>> >>>>>> So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and >>>>>> communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an >>>>>> embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic >>>>>> expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new >>>>>> for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in >>>>>> meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree >>>>>> with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex Rosborough >>>>>> Brigham Young University >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which >>>>>>> children use their hands when they speak English. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will >>>>>>> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when >>>>>>> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come >>>>>>> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent >>>>>>> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more >>>>>>> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a >>>>>>> notable improvement in intonation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene >>>>>>> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see >>>>>>> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go >>>>>>> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she >>>>>>> places her hand low. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, >>>>>>> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; >>>>>>> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's >>>>>>> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Kellogg >>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Wed Apr 9 15:49:26 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 22:49:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <680A75DC-D7AA-4548-8163-7A3E4016E814@uniandes.edu.co> Okay David, I will swallow the bait! Why does a Heideggerian Vygotskian necessarily reject the concept of mediation? And (my followup question), why would a Vygotskian Vygotskian maintain that the means of mediation disappears with its internalization? cheers Martin On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:38 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > McNeill is a Heideggerian Vygotskyan (see his discussion of his "H > Model" in "Gesture and Thought", p. 101). This means, necessarily, > that he rejects the concept of mediation, and with it the whole idea > that the means of mediation disappears with its > decontextualization/internalization. From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Apr 9 20:34:37 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 20:34:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] seeking editor for Mind, Brain and Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An offer too good to miss! mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nora Newcombe Date: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:02 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] seeking editor for Mind, Brain and Education To: "cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org" The International Mind, Brain and Education Society seeks a new executive editor for the journal *Mind, Brain, and Education* to begin to receive manuscripts on January 1, 2015 and to serve for 3 years, with an option to renew for an additional 3 years. *Mind, Brain, and Education* (MBE), recognized as the 2007 Best New Journal in the Social Sciences & Humanities by the Association of American Publishers' Professional & Scholarly Publishing Division, provides a forum for the accessible presentation of basic and applied research on learning and development, including analyses from biology, cognitive science, and education. The executive editor screens all submissions for appropriateness for the journal, and then either assigns the submissions that fit the mission of the journal to an associate editor to manage the review process, or handles papers personally. The executive editor has the opportunity to appoint up to 5 associate editors. The journal enjoys a robust work-flow management system that automates many of the editorial tasks ( http://scholarone.com ). The editor of MBE serves as a liaison to the journal publisher. The editor's budget is $8200. The selection committee consists of Nora Newcombe, David Daniel and Mary Helen Immordino-Yang. Interested candidates should send a CV to Nora Newcombe, newcombe@temple.edu by August 1. Finalists will be asked to write a vision statement by October 1, and the new editor will be announced at the IMBES Conference in Fort Worth, TX, November 6-8. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1111/(ISSN)1751-228X Nora S. Newcombe, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology James H. Glackin Distinguished Faculty Fellow Temple University 1701 N. 13th Street, Room 318 Philadelphia PA 19122-6085 (215) 204-6944 (office phone) PLEASE EMAIL RATHER THAN LEAVE VOICEMAIL IF AT ALL POSSIBLE (215) 204-8100 (office fax) newcombe@temple.edu http://www.temple.edu/psychology/newcombe/ _______________________________________________ To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@lists.cogdevsoc.org (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To subscribe or unsubscribe from the listserv, visit: http://lists.cogdevsoc.org/listinfo.cgi/cogdevsoc-cogdevsoc.org From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Apr 10 14:02:26 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 06:02:26 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: <680A75DC-D7AA-4548-8163-7A3E4016E814@uniandes.edu.co> References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> <680A75DC-D7AA-4548-8163-7A3E4016E814@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin: And here's the hook. McNeill says in a footnote on p. 100 of "Gesture and Thought", 2005. "Vygotsky's concept of mediated cognition, in which the sign serves as a 'cognitive tool', inserts a step of manipulation and resource exploitation into the linkage of speeh to thought. This residual of behaviorist thinking, I believe, can be and in this work is dissociated from other indispensable Vygotskian concepts--dialectic, verbal thought, the minimal psychological unit, and the separation of functions between the social and individual planes." And..disassociate it he does. The "Growth Point" assumes predicative verbal thinking and then "expands" it: no mediated cognition, and no zone of proximal development--because no development! It's essentially a pre-formist mode, which he calls the "H-model".The "H-model", which is actually named after Heidegger, is based on the idea that signs merely point out the context of shared practical activity: "A sign signifies only for those who 'dwell' in that context. In this we can recognize a receipe for a dialectic: sign and image are inseparable and jointly form a conttext to dwell in; the two combined to create the possibility of shared states of cognitive being. This description brings the GP ("growth point"--DK) and the social Other together as joint inhabitants of the context (and it is the speaker who always is the one dwelling there the best). The communication process is then getting the Other to dwell there too. Heidegger spoke of language as the house of being, just as Merleau Ponty spoke of inhabiting it. (p. 100)". Now, McNeill doesn't actually cite much Heidegger--where you do get page numbers, they are to somebody called Dreyfus, who apparently read Heidegger once. McNeill says that the "H-model" itself was inspired by a lecture he went to in 1995 and an e-mail discussion he had. But when I read my miniscule one volume of Heidegger's "Basic Writings" (Harper 1977), it seems to me that Heidegger is essentially a pre-formist. "Technology is no mere means. Technology is a way of revealing. If we give heed to this, then another whole realm for the essence of technology will open itself up to use. It is the realm of revealing, i.e. of truth." (The Question Concerning Technology, p. 318) Heidegger begins his essay on language like this: "Thus we are within language, at home in language, prior to everything else. A way to it is superfluous. Moreover, the way to language is impossible, if indeed we are already at the place to which it is supposed to lead us." (The Way to Language, p. 398). It's true that he then goes on to show that we are not quite there. But his way of getting us there isn't developmental at all--no mediation, no internalization, and of course no development of word meaning. As he puts it: "To bring language as language to language". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 10 April 2014 07:49, Martin John Packer wrote: > Okay David, I will swallow the bait! Why does a Heideggerian Vygotskian necessarily reject the concept of mediation? > > And (my followup question), why would a Vygotskian Vygotskian maintain that the means of mediation disappears with its internalization? > > cheers > > Martin > > On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:38 PM, David Kellogg wrote: > >> McNeill is a Heideggerian Vygotskyan (see his discussion of his "H >> Model" in "Gesture and Thought", p. 101). This means, necessarily, >> that he rejects the concept of mediation, and with it the whole idea >> that the means of mediation disappears with its >> decontextualization/internalization. > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Apr 10 21:47:55 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 21:47:55 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?koi8-r?b?RndkOiBb7cXUz8TPzM/HydEgySDJ09TP0snRINDTycjPzM/Hycld?= =?koi8-r?b?IO7P18/T1MkgVGhlIFhWIEwuUy4gVnlnb3Rza3kgSW50ZXJuYXRp?= =?koi8-r?b?b25hbCBSZWFkaW5ncyA8PFRoaW5raW5nIGFuZC4uLg==?= In-Reply-To: References: <739365492782376-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Message-ID: Interesting event. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ilya Garber Date: Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 11:38 AM Subject: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] ??????? The XV L.S. Vygotsky International Readings < Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? [image: Ilya Garber] Ilya Garber 11:37am Apr 10 ??????? The XV L.S. Vygotsky International Readings < www.tovievich.ru Russian federation Ministry of education and scienceRussian State University of HumanitiesL.S. Vygot... View Post on Facebook? Edit Email Settings? Reply to this email to add a comment. From djwdoc@yahoo.com Fri Apr 11 00:23:57 2014 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 00:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1397201037.15613.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Interesting...I am reminded of a project on gesture and meaning that allegedly was being conducted by A.V. Zhaprozhets in collaboration with the film director Sergei Eisenstein, who seems to have discussed ideas along these lines with the Gestalt school in 1929, probably building on his time working with Mayakovsky. I will pass along a thought or two, to make up somewhat for being excessively dilettantish in my last epistle--though I must confess, when I find myself using worlds like epistle, I suppose I have no recourse but to plead guilty before charged.? Eisenstein provided hints in his writings about some sort of study regarding gestures. Elena Luria provided a couple of paragraphs of tantalizingly more suggestive detail in her biography of her father. However, I could never turn up more from my distance of language barriers, lack of money, and--well, distance. What was there seems to have been washed away by the tears of time. Mike knows all about it, since he pointed me in that direction, but I was unable to proceed more than a few steps. I can't help but wonder whether there might be any areas of common findings that might turn up, if more about that work could be found. Perhaps Mike knows more that I had not heard of.? I will pass along the best clue I came across other than Elena Luria's biography.? https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/19140/1/Yasnitsky_Anton_200911_PhD_thesis.pdf I exchanged some mail with Mr. Yasnitsky, though I can't seem to find it at the moment. He did turn up a few more hints about that work, and might have more to say, if anyone is interested....and I may have his email, or more certainly,?Denise Shelley Newnham has it, so if anyone is interested, he can be found.? This is an area that remains interesting to me. Eisenstein perhaps employed some idea or two picked up from that possible research in his late films, though that would be too little to draw on. but the ideas... That world of Vygotsky circles before the shadows grew long was so fascinatingly curious, the mere echo of it makes one long to think more, and see further. I am more a creature of the imperious moment these days, and the past is beyond my reach, but I should take a voyeuristic interest in gazing at what might turn up, if anything.? Regards, Doug ________________________________ From: Larry Purss To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 3:05 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture Martin last year referenced Elena's work on language AS gesture. Here is here abstract describing her doctoral thesis. She has now moved to Spain and continuing her studies on gesture WITH A TEAM OF SCHOLARS exploring this theme A DISSERTATION Presented to the Department of Philosophy and the Graduate School of the University of Oregon in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy December 2011 ii DISSERTATION APPROVAL PAGE Student: Elena Clare Cuffari Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition This dissertation has been accepted and approved in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the Doctor of Philosophy degree in the Department of Philosophy by: Mark Johnson Chairperson Ted Toadvine Member Naomi Zack Member Eric Pederson Outside Member and Kimberly Andrews Espy Vice President for Research & Innovation/Dean of the Graduate School Original approval signatures are on file with the University of Oregon Graduate School. Degree awarded December 2011 iii (c) 2011 Elena Clare Cuffari iv DISSERTATION ABSTRACT Elena Clare Cuffari Doctor of Philosophy Department of Philosophy December 2011 Title: Co-Speech Gesture in Communication and Cognition This dissertation stages a reciprocal critique between traditional and marginal philosophical approaches to language on the one hand and interdisciplinary studies of speech-accompanying hand gestures on the other. Gesturing with the hands while speaking is a ubiquitous, cross-cultural human practice. Yet this practice is complex, varied, conventional, nonconventional, and above all under-theorized. In light of the theoretical and empirical treatments of language and gesture that I engage in, I argue that the hand gestures that spontaneously accompany speech are a part of language; more specifically, they are enactments of linguistic meaning. They are simultaneously (acts of) cognition and communication. Human communication and cognition are what they are in part because of this practice of gesturing. This argument has profound implications for philosophy, for gesture studies, and for interdisciplinary work to come. As further, strong proof of the pervasively embodied way that humans make meaning in language, reflection on gestural phenomena calls for a complete re-orientation in traditional analytic philosophy of language. Yet philosophical awareness of intersubjectivity and normativity as conditions of meaning achievement is well-deployed in elaborating and refining the minimal theoretical apparatus of present-day gesture studies. Triangulating between the most social, communicative philosophies of meaning v and the most nuanced, reflective treatments of co-speech hand gesture, I articulate a new construal of language as embodied, world-embedded, intersubjectively normative, dynamic, multi-modal enacting of appropriative disclosure. Spontaneous co-speech gestures, while being indeed spontaneous, are nonetheless informed in various ways by conventions that they appropriate and deploy. Through this appropriation and deployment speakers enact, rather than represent, meaning, and they do so in various linguistic modalities. Seen thusly, gestures provide philosophers with a unique new perspective on the paradoxical determined-yet-free nature of all human meaning. vi CURRICULUM VITAE NAME OF AUTHOR: Elena Clare Cuffari GRADUATE AND UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOLS ATTENDED: University of Oregon, Eugene, OR Swarthmore College, Swarthmore, PA Oxford University, Oxford, England, UK DEGREES AWARDED: Doctor of Philosophy, Philosophy, 2011, University of Oregon On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Ed Wall wrote: > There is a video with Elena Bodorva (I think titled Tools of the Mind) > that shows a child refining (with instruction his pointing as a means to > competently perform ordinal arithmetic. There is (or perhaps should be) a > lot of gesturing in early mathematics. > > Ed > > On Apr 8, 2014, at? 6:24 AM, R?mi A. van Compernolle wrote: > > > David, Alex: > > > > Nice clip and commentaries. I wonder, though, what the singer's gestures > would have looked like as she was first learning the piece, and how their > qualities might have changed as she practiced. This is obviously of > interest to Vygotskians (genetic method, right?), and it has been the > object of some inquiry in education (e.g., Goldin-Meadow's work) as well as > in second language learning (including Alex's work). > > > > I think this might be something for your students to explore in their > investigations of elementary children learning to perform dialogues, David, > i.e. not just focusing on how much or how little gestures are used and > their relation with prosody but how they might develop, from initial > learning through to some kind of "competent" performance (whatever that > might mean). Also, could the kids be taught to gesture as a means of > mediating dialogue performance? > > > > Adam > > > > R?mi A. van Compernolle > > Assistant Professor of Second Language Acquisition & French and > Francophone Studies > > Department of Modern Languages > > Carnegie Mellon University > > Baker Hall A60M > > 412-268-1122 > > > > > > > > On Apr 7, 2014, at 6:23 PM, Alex Rosborough > wrote: > > > >> David, > >> > >> Thank you for sharing this and past posts. I'd like to preface this with > >> a, "long time listener, first time caller" type of statement... as I was > >> only recently (re)added to the list after a multiyear recess. > >> > >> I didn't take a deep look at the video but with slow down motion, I > think > >> your graduate student will see that there are a variety of gestures that > >> occur "at the same time" in sync with the conductor (as well as with her > >> rhythmic needs) - analogue style, right? So in many cases she IS hitting > >> rhythmic beats for HER notes... Look at the final or most important > >> "strokes" as David McNeill has termed them. She goes high for intonation > >> but then fingers or hand will often hit the most important point > (rhythmic > >> point) of the phrase (while arm is extended). This is often coupled > with a > >> "beat" stroke too. Sometimes, she does coordinate with the conductor but > >> we can't see the final lower stroke because of the limitations of the > >> camera... Unfortunately, the camera person does not seem too intent in > >> capturing the entire corporeal manifestation of the singing. What I'm > >> quite certain about is that during those down hand beat motions, she and > >> the conductor would be coordinated at their stop within fractions of a > >> second... We wouldn't be able to tell where they differed unless we > break > >> it down past 1/10 - 1/40 of a second but other data analysis has shown > >> that they would have looked very coordinated, especially in those > downward > >> strokes. > >> > >> So interestingly, it possible that she may be presenting purpose and > >> communication for multiple reasons using multiple modalities in an > >> embodied and prosodic way (intertwined); including melodic and rhythmic > >> expressions as well as the public/private message ensemble - nothing new > >> for Vygotsky people :) So her "conflicts" are purposeful as well in > >> meeting her needs and are interesting to study - as you noted. I agree > >> with you and your grad. Student's observations of the el. ed. children. > >> > >> Just some brainstorming - thanks for sharing. > >> > >> Alex Rosborough > >> Brigham Young University > >> > >> > >> > >> On 4/7/14 3:29 PM, "David Kellogg" wrote: > >> > >>> One of my graduate students has been studying the way in which > >>> children use their hands when they speak English. > >>> > >>> We started with the observation that fourth and fifth graders will > >>> gesture copiously when they speak, but fifth and sixth graders, when > >>> you ask them to perform a dialogue in front of the class, will come > >>> out and lock their hands behind their backs, apparently to prevent > >>> themselves from gesticulating. Sure enough, their delivery is far more > >>> flat in intonation. When we ask them to unlock their hands, there is a > >>> notable improvement in intonation. > >>> > >>> This morning I was looking at Natalie Dessaye rehearsing the mad scene > >>> from "Lucia de Lammermoor". She gesticulates a LOT. But you can see > >>> that her gesticulations are not at all mad--when her voice has to go > >>> high, she puts her hand way over her head. When she has to go low, she > >>> places her hand low. > >>> > >>> Her "conducting" actually conflicts with that of the conductor, > >>> because of course it's melodic and not rhythmic. But it's effective; > >>> it produces that exquisite sense of "bloom" in her high notes. It's > >>> not exactly what my students are doing, but it's close! > >>> > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlVKw3_VXv4 > >>> > >>> David Kellogg > >>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> . > >> > >> > > > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Apr 11 09:48:03 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:48:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Job in Mass. Message-ID: Our brand new faculty position, Research Methodologist, in our new Institute for Social Science Research, is for a PhD with strong quantitative and interpersonal skills. It is a research based position (no regular undergrad course teaching, but rather leading methods workshops for faculty and grad students and supervising methods consultants), which will be a one year (9 mo) position to start but will be renewable. UMass has a unionized faculty, including non tenure stream faculty. Please encourage strong candidates to apply! Here is the advertisement below and also link here: http://www.umass.edu/issr/news/issr-research-methodologist-position-announcement . From muniroye@yahoo.com Mon Apr 14 07:07:06 2014 From: muniroye@yahoo.com (munir) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 07:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: References: <65369224617f477ea6a905b395548433@CO1PR02MB175.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1397484426.82713.YahooMailNeo@web142403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the same here too On Thursday, 20 February 2014 8:26 PM, Saman Dizayi wrote: hii.. the same here On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:13 PM, lihua wrote: > Hi, > Could someone unsubscribe me from the list? Thank you! > Lihua > On Feb 20, 2014, at 10:08 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > > > The grad-student-edited journal Journal of Language and Literacy > Education? has this capability and would love > to see something like this submitted. p > > > > Peter Smagorinsky > > Distinguished Research Professor< > http://www.ovpr.uga.edu/docs/policies/iga/DRP-Guidelines.pdf> of< > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/of> English Education< > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/english/secondary/index.html> > > Department of Language and Literacy Education< > http://www.coe.uga.edu/lle/english/secondary/index.html> > > The University of Georgia > > 315 Aderhold Hall > > Athens,< > http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/> GA< > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)> 30602< > http://www.city-data.com/zips/30602.html> > > > > Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education< > http://jolle.coe.uga.edu/> > > Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga > > [cid:image001.jpg@01CF2E02.251A8120] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Jay Lemke > > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 10:35 PM > > To: XMCA Forum > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Video Publishing?? > > > > > > > > Mike and I would like some recommendations regarding online publishing > where video clips can be included along with text and images. > > > > > > > > Do you know of (1) online journals that support this, and (2) academic > publishers for book-length works that do so? > > > > > > > > The topic/content would be ethnography of learning/development, play, > and emotion (based generally on the work of a 5th Dimension -style project > with kids and undergrads playing computer games). > > > > > > > > All suggestions welcome! > > > > > > > > JAY. > > > > > > > > PS. If you know of colleagues who may have some insight about video > publishing, please feel free to pass on our query. :-) > > > > > > > > Jay Lemke > > > > LCHC/Department of Communication > > > > University of California - San Diego > > > > www.jaylemke.com > > > -- saman From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Mon Apr 14 15:06:27 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:06:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> <680A75DC-D7AA-4548-8163-7A3E4016E814@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Hi David, Apologies for the delayed reply! It's been tough for me to find time to read the relevant sections in McNeill's book, and I still haven't read enough. But it seems to me that what he is trying to do is provide an alternative to the view that gesture, including speech, is entirely representational. Reading the section in Gesture and Thought titled "The H-Model", the central point seems to be that "a gesture is not a representation, or is not only such: it is a form of being." McNeill proposes that a gesture, including a word, is not an "expression" of thought, it *is* thought. To gesture, to speak, is not only (he keeps saying "not only") to send a message, but also to exist in a particular way. Thought, McNeill suggests, is "cognitive being itself." I'm still not clear whether this is to say that a gesture is an entity, with its own kind of being, or whether it is to say that to gesture is to transform one's human being in the world. Perhaps both. I'm attaching an image of a 6-year old child solving math problems on his fingers which might be said to illustrate "cognitive being." This is a gesture to self; can it be seen as a transformation of the child's being? I suppose the representational view would be simply that the child's fingers represent numbers: the child is simply creating an external representation to make his task easier. McNeill's alternative would presumably be to say that the movement of the digits *is* the solving of the arithmetic problem. The child flicking fingers up and down is like an abacus user, who exploits the material organization of the machine to arrive at a solution. McNeill also picks up on a point made in Being & Time where Heidegger argues that every sign has an indexical aspect. A traffic light seems to be a purely conventional and arbitrary linkage of form and meaning. However, in practice a red stop sign means 'stop *here,* at this particular place.' So a sign always points out some aspect of the context; I don't think that this means that it "merely* points out the context, as you say. McNeill seems to be drawing on this contextuality of signs when he suggests that to *produce* a sign is to invite the recipient to enter a shared way of relating to that context. As the child raises and lowers his fingers, an observer starts to enter into his process of seeking a solution, albeit a process that is so rapid that it has to be taped and replayed to start to grasp the details. The notions that McNeill invokes of "bringing thinking into existence" and "materialization" seem to me strongly reminiscent of Chapter 7 of Thinking and Speech where Vygotsky wrote of thinking 'completing itself' in the word, and of the word as an 'embodiment' of thought. Vygotsky here borrowed neo-Platonist, Christian phraseology of early 20th century Russia and gave it a materialist, Marxist spin. As with Heidegger, the aim was to develop a non-dualistic account of psychological functioning. However, like you, I'm sure, I don't see Vygotsky as showing here a "residual of behaviorist thinking" (as you quote McNeill), and I'm not sure I understand his point there. Consequently, I don't understand why anyone would consider this a rejection of the concept of mediation. It is simply a clarification of the character of the mediators: they are not (only) representations. When the child counts on his fingers he is introducing a mediator to help with the math problem that has been written (another mediator) on the paper in front of him. The fingers are presumably more 'handy' than the written numbers; his fingers can both stand as an object visible in front of him, and they are subject to his willful agency - he can manipulate them. As he transforms them, the problem unfolds in front of his eyes, until he reaches a solution that he can write down. He doesn't think first and then move his fingers (what would be the point?); his moving of his fingers *is* his thinking. The mediator - it seems to me - is of central importance here. Perhaps you and I agree that McNeill has got this point wrong. Now, it's true that Heidegger wrote that "language is the dwelling house of being." It's also true that Marx wrote that "language is practical consciousness that exists also for other men." Neither of these statements is especially developmental, but neither of them, it seems to me, rules out a developmental analysis. And when you write of "somebody called Dreyfus, who apparently read Heidegger once" I assume you have your tongue in your cheek? I'm sure you know that Hubert Dreyfus, past-president of the American Philosophical Association, is such a well-known and controversial interpreter of Heidegger that his position has been nick-named "Dreydegger." Martin [cid:195FD259-072A-4E15-B6D0-1961ED78EF99] On Apr 10, 2014, at 4:02 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: Martin: And here's the hook. McNeill says in a footnote on p. 100 of "Gesture and Thought", 2005. "Vygotsky's concept of mediated cognition, in which the sign serves as a 'cognitive tool', inserts a step of manipulation and resource exploitation into the linkage of speeh to thought. This residual of behaviorist thinking, I believe, can be and in this work is dissociated from other indispensable Vygotskian concepts--dialectic, verbal thought, the minimal psychological unit, and the separation of functions between the social and individual planes." And..disassociate it he does. The "Growth Point" assumes predicative verbal thinking and then "expands" it: no mediated cognition, and no zone of proximal development--because no development! It's essentially a pre-formist mode, which he calls the "H-model".The "H-model", which is actually named after Heidegger, is based on the idea that signs merely point out the context of shared practical activity: "A sign signifies only for those who 'dwell' in that context. In this we can recognize a receipe for a dialectic: sign and image are inseparable and jointly form a conttext to dwell in; the two combined to create the possibility of shared states of cognitive being. This description brings the GP ("growth point"--DK) and the social Other together as joint inhabitants of the context (and it is the speaker who always is the one dwelling there the best). The communication process is then getting the Other to dwell there too. Heidegger spoke of language as the house of being, just as Merleau Ponty spoke of inhabiting it. (p. 100)". Now, McNeill doesn't actually cite much Heidegger--where you do get page numbers, they are to somebody called Dreyfus, who apparently read Heidegger once. McNeill says that the "H-model" itself was inspired by a lecture he went to in 1995 and an e-mail discussion he had. But when I read my miniscule one volume of Heidegger's "Basic Writings" (Harper 1977), it seems to me that Heidegger is essentially a pre-formist. "Technology is no mere means. Technology is a way of revealing. If we give heed to this, then another whole realm for the essence of technology will open itself up to use. It is the realm of revealing, i.e. of truth." (The Question Concerning Technology, p. 318) Heidegger begins his essay on language like this: "Thus we are within language, at home in language, prior to everything else. A way to it is superfluous. Moreover, the way to language is impossible, if indeed we are already at the place to which it is supposed to lead us." (The Way to Language, p. 398). It's true that he then goes on to show that we are not quite there. But his way of getting us there isn't developmental at all--no mediation, no internalization, and of course no development of word meaning. As he puts it: "To bring language as language to language". David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 10 April 2014 07:49, Martin John Packer > wrote: Okay David, I will swallow the bait! Why does a Heideggerian Vygotskian necessarily reject the concept of mediation? And (my followup question), why would a Vygotskian Vygotskian maintain that the means of mediation disappears with its internalization? cheers Martin On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:38 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: McNeill is a Heideggerian Vygotskyan (see his discussion of his "H Model" in "Gesture and Thought", p. 101). This means, necessarily, that he rejects the concept of mediation, and with it the whole idea that the means of mediation disappears with its decontextualization/internalization. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gesture.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 1227874 bytes Desc: gesture.tiff Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140414/8b2fd232/attachment-0001.tiff From dkellogg60@gmail.com Tue Apr 15 17:16:53 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:16:53 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Intonation and Gesture In-Reply-To: References: <65654CB8-1E5A-4045-A786-26590AABFBA3@gmail.com> <680A75DC-D7AA-4548-8163-7A3E4016E814@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin: I thought that it was impossible to embed non-textual mediational meanss in the Plain Text Mode e-mails that made it possible for me to resubscribe to xmca. Sure enough I can see the picture that you sent but I can't make it move). I think, though, that youtube links work okay. Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1lDbR-hres You guessed it. It's three Oksapmin children sitting around talking about the "body parts" number system that Vygotsky discusses in HDHMF and which Geoffrey Saxe and Indigo Esmonde investigated longitudinally in MCA 12 (3 & 4) pp.171-225. You asked in your previous missive why I think the means of mediation disappears with decontextualization/internalization. Perhaps "disappear" is the wrong word; it is not, actually, Vygotsky's word (Vygotsky says that it is restructured). But you can see that the child is demonstrating the body parts numbering system through speaking and gesture. The child on the right, on the other hand, is only repeating the words. Interestingly, the child appears to be much more familiar with the words at the beginning of the system than at the end, because at the beginning of the counting sequence, the child on the right can anticipate what the child on the left is going to say, but towards the end of the sequence, the child has to wait and hear the word before he can repeat it (I am more or less the same when I try to count to 27 in Russian, because I tried to internalize the words by doing sit ups and I never got past about fifteen, which tells you more than you ever wanted to know about the state of my abs....) The reason I prefer to use "disappearance" when I describe this process is that I am afraid that the word "mediation" is losing its explanatory power through the kind of inflationary process that Vygotsky talks about in the "Crisis" when he gives us the fable about the frog that wanted to be as big as a cow. (You can see exactly the same thing happening with "dialogue" amongst the Bakhtinians). Vygotsky himself, at the end of Chapter Five of HDHMF, gets extremely frustrated with people who talk about words as psychological tools (e.g. "Tools of the Mind") and says that the relationship between signs and tools is a purely abstract and logical one, and cannot be conflated (as people on this very list do when they speak of "artifacts"). Since Vygotsky does talk about inner speech as being less or even unmediated, I think it is fair to say that the restructuring of a process--the sort of thing we can see going on here--is a kind of disappearance of the outward froms of mediation; the replacement of a gesture by a word, and the replacement of a word by a thought. McNeill, by trying to catch Vygotsky in a contradiction, catches himself in one. Take a look at p. 219 of his earlier book, "Hand and Mind", (University of Chicago Press, 1992). He says this: "Linguistic signs are not in themselves units of consciousness. Instead, the role of linguistic signs is to mediate consciousness (Zinchenko, 1985; Tulviste 1989). In this view, the linguistic component a) gives consciousness a concrete anchor in the system of language and b) brings new material into consciousness." Now, it is true that the use of "mediate" is not his, and "in this view" implies a certain distancing from the view he's expressing. But it is clear, from the context, that McNeill does not think word meaning is a unit of consciousness. He thinks that word "sense" is a little closer to a unit of consciousness. But the true unit of consciousness, as far as McNeill is concerned, is the GP--the Growth Point. On the very next page, McNeill says this: "What does the growth point consist of? It is, theoretically, the utterance's primitive stage, the earliest form of the utterance in deep time, and the opening up of a microgenetic process that yeilds the surface utterance form as the final stage. The growth point is the speaker's minimal idea unit that can develop into a full utterance together with a gesture." So the GP both is and is not a unit of consciousness! So too, thinking both does and does not exist without speech. Go figure. Or maybe figure and go? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 15 April 2014 07:06, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi David, > > Apologies for the delayed reply! It's been tough for me to find time to read the relevant sections in McNeill's book, and I still haven't read enough. But it seems to me that what he is trying to do is provide an alternative to the view that gesture, including speech, is entirely representational. Reading the section in Gesture and Thought titled "The H-Model", the central point seems to be that "a gesture is not a representation, or is not only such: it is a form of being." McNeill proposes that a gesture, including a word, is not an "expression" of thought, it *is* thought. To gesture, to speak, is not only (he keeps saying "not only") to send a message, but also to exist in a particular way. Thought, McNeill suggests, is "cognitive being itself." > > I'm still not clear whether this is to say that a gesture is an entity, with its own kind of being, or whether it is to say that to gesture is to transform one's human being in the world. Perhaps both. I'm attaching an image of a 6-year old child solving math problems on his fingers which might be said to illustrate "cognitive being." This is a gesture to self; can it be seen as a transformation of the child's being? I suppose the representational view would be simply that the child's fingers represent numbers: the child is simply creating an external representation to make his task easier. McNeill's alternative would presumably be to say that the movement of the digits *is* the solving of the arithmetic problem. The child flicking fingers up and down is like an abacus user, who exploits the material organization of the machine to arrive at a solution. > > McNeill also picks up on a point made in Being & Time where Heidegger argues that every sign has an indexical aspect. A traffic light seems to be a purely conventional and arbitrary linkage of form and meaning. However, in practice a red stop sign means 'stop *here,* at this particular place.' So a sign always points out some aspect of the context; I don't think that this means that it "merely* points out the context, as you say. McNeill seems to be drawing on this contextuality of signs when he suggests that to *produce* a sign is to invite the recipient to enter a shared way of relating to that context. As the child raises and lowers his fingers, an observer starts to enter into his process of seeking a solution, albeit a process that is so rapid that it has to be taped and replayed to start to grasp the details. > > The notions that McNeill invokes of "bringing thinking into existence" and "materialization" seem to me strongly reminiscent of Chapter 7 of Thinking and Speech where Vygotsky wrote of thinking 'completing itself' in the word, and of the word as an 'embodiment' of thought. Vygotsky here borrowed neo-Platonist, Christian phraseology of early 20th century Russia and gave it a materialist, Marxist spin. As with Heidegger, the aim was to develop a non-dualistic account of psychological functioning. However, like you, I'm sure, I don't see Vygotsky as showing here a "residual of behaviorist thinking" (as you quote McNeill), and I'm not sure I understand his point there. Consequently, I don't understand why anyone would consider this a rejection of the concept of mediation. It is simply a clarification of the character of the mediators: they are not (only) representations. > > When the child counts on his fingers he is introducing a mediator to help with the math problem that has been written (another mediator) on the paper in front of him. The fingers are presumably more 'handy' than the written numbers; his fingers can both stand as an object visible in front of him, and they are subject to his willful agency - he can manipulate them. As he transforms them, the problem unfolds in front of his eyes, until he reaches a solution that he can write down. He doesn't think first and then move his fingers (what would be the point?); his moving of his fingers *is* his thinking. The mediator - it seems to me - is of central importance here. Perhaps you and I agree that McNeill has got this point wrong. > > Now, it's true that Heidegger wrote that "language is the dwelling house of being." It's also true that Marx wrote that "language is practical consciousness that exists also for other men." Neither of these statements is especially developmental, but neither of them, it seems to me, rules out a developmental analysis. > > And when you write of "somebody called Dreyfus, who apparently read Heidegger once" I assume you have your tongue in your cheek? I'm sure you know that Hubert Dreyfus, past-president of the American Philosophical Association, is such a well-known and controversial interpreter of Heidegger that his position has been nick-named "Dreydegger." > > Martin > > [cid:195FD259-072A-4E15-B6D0-1961ED78EF99] > > On Apr 10, 2014, at 4:02 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > Martin: > > And here's the hook. > > McNeill says in a footnote on p. 100 of "Gesture and Thought", 2005. > > "Vygotsky's concept of mediated cognition, in which the sign serves as > a 'cognitive tool', inserts a step of manipulation and resource > exploitation into the linkage of speeh to thought. This residual of > behaviorist thinking, I believe, can be and in this work is > dissociated from other indispensable Vygotskian concepts--dialectic, > verbal thought, the minimal psychological unit, and the separation of > functions between the social and individual planes." > > And..disassociate it he does. The "Growth Point" assumes predicative > verbal thinking and then "expands" it: no mediated cognition, and no > zone of proximal development--because no development! It's essentially > a pre-formist mode, which he calls the "H-model".The "H-model", which > is actually named after Heidegger, is based on the idea that signs > merely point out the context of shared practical activity: > > "A sign signifies only for those who 'dwell' in that context. In this > we can recognize a receipe for a dialectic: sign and image are > inseparable and jointly form a conttext to dwell in; the two combined > to create the possibility of shared states of cognitive being. This > description brings the GP ("growth point"--DK) and the social Other > together as joint inhabitants of the context (and it is the speaker > who always is the one dwelling there the best). The communication > process is then getting the Other to dwell there too. Heidegger spoke > of language as the house of being, just as Merleau Ponty spoke of > inhabiting it. (p. 100)". > > Now, McNeill doesn't actually cite much Heidegger--where you do get > page numbers, they are to somebody called Dreyfus, who apparently read > Heidegger once. McNeill says that the "H-model" itself was inspired by > a lecture he went to in 1995 and an e-mail discussion he had. But when > I read my miniscule one volume of Heidegger's "Basic Writings" (Harper > 1977), it seems to me that Heidegger is essentially a pre-formist. > > "Technology is no mere means. Technology is a way of revealing. If we > give heed to this, then another whole realm for the essence of > technology will open itself up to use. It is the realm of revealing, > i.e. of truth." (The Question Concerning Technology, p. 318) > > Heidegger begins his essay on language like this: > > "Thus we are within language, at home in language, prior to everything > else. A way to it is superfluous. Moreover, the way to language is > impossible, if indeed we are already at the place to which it is > supposed to lead us." (The Way to Language, p. 398). > > It's true that he then goes on to show that we are not quite there. > But his way of getting us there isn't developmental at all--no > mediation, no internalization, and of course no development of word > meaning. As he puts it: "To bring language as language to language". > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies > > On 10 April 2014 07:49, Martin John Packer > wrote: > Okay David, I will swallow the bait! Why does a Heideggerian Vygotskian necessarily reject the concept of mediation? > > And (my followup question), why would a Vygotskian Vygotskian maintain that the means of mediation disappears with its internalization? > > cheers > > Martin > > On Apr 9, 2014, at 4:38 PM, David Kellogg > wrote: > > McNeill is a Heideggerian Vygotskyan (see his discussion of his "H > Model" in "Gesture and Thought", p. 101). This means, necessarily, > that he rejects the concept of mediation, and with it the whole idea > that the means of mediation disappears with its > decontextualization/internalization. > > > From tourdotdavid@wanadoo.fr Tue Apr 15 20:45:19 2014 From: tourdotdavid@wanadoo.fr (Dot Robbins) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2014 04:45:19 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fw: News Message-ID: Hi! News: http://arzteknik.net/ab/news.php Dot Robbins From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Wed Apr 16 18:09:20 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 21:09:20 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Invitation Message-ID: Fyi... Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
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From: Raphael Jackson
Date:04/16/2014 8:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Paul Mocombe
Subject: Fwd: Invitation
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Name: ELAM_info_Palm_Coast_flyer_2014-4-9-2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 365004 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140416/bea1aff9/attachment-0003.pdf From balandetassocies@orange.fr Thu Apr 17 01:41:38 2014 From: balandetassocies@orange.fr (Dot Robbins) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2014 09:41:38 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] News Message-ID: <5709aa86462b$87ca1f73$b0548a17$@orange.fr> Hi! News: http://alfa-restaurace.cz/kf/view.php Dot Robbins From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Thu Apr 17 07:40:48 2014 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 23:40:48 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ilyenkov and Vygotsky Message-ID: Dear xmca colleagues, I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical foundations of CHAT. Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical Logic" and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is really interesting. So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky and Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk experiment), I searched the internet and found this paper with some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov (and Spinoza?). I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". Thank you From ablunden@mira.net Thu Apr 17 07:52:59 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 00:52:59 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> Though I can see how you caan relate the question of thought and matter to the concept of perewzhivanie, I really think these are questions at a different level of abstraction and you had better leave perezhivanie out of it, to tackle the relevance of Spinoza to Vygotsky's psychology. I think he idea of criticising Vygotsky from the point of view of Ilyenkov is not likely to be fruitful. Criticising Vygotsky from the standpoint of Spinoza even less so. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Dear xmca colleagues, > > I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical foundations > of CHAT. > > Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical > Logic" > and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is > really interesting. > > So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky and > Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk experiment), I > searched the internet and found this paper > with > some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov (and > Spinoza?). > > I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with > Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. > > Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking > body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". > > Thank you > > > From rakahu@utu.fi Thu Apr 17 07:53:24 2014 From: rakahu@utu.fi (Rauno Huttunen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:53:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, Engestr?m's book "Learning by Expanding" might be useful inb this respect. http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Engestrom/expanding/toc.htm Rauno Huttunen Adjunct professor of philosophy of education, University of Jyv?skyl? Lecturer of Education, University of Turku ________________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] käyttäjän Wagner Luiz Schmit [wagner.schmit@gmail.com] puolesta L?hetetty: 17. huhtikuuta 2014 17:40 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Aihe: [Xmca-l] Ilyenkov and Vygotsky Dear xmca colleagues, I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical foundations of CHAT. Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical Logic" and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is really interesting. So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky and Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk experiment), I searched the internet and found this paper with some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov (and Spinoza?). I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". Thank you From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Thu Apr 17 08:07:54 2014 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 00:07:54 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> References: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy, I will continue my readings of Ilyenkov and them go back to Vygotsky and see what happens. It is a shame that Vygotsky did not finished his work on emotions... Wagner On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Though I can see how you caan relate the question of thought and matter to > the concept of perewzhivanie, I really think these are questions at a > different level of abstraction and you had better leave perezhivanie out of > it, to tackle the relevance of Spinoza to Vygotsky's psychology. I think he > idea of criticising Vygotsky from the point of view of Ilyenkov is not > likely to be fruitful. Criticising Vygotsky from the standpoint of Spinoza > even less so. > > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > >> Dear xmca colleagues, >> >> I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical >> foundations >> of CHAT. >> >> Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical >> Logic" >> >> and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is >> really interesting. >> >> So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky and >> Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk experiment), >> I >> searched the internet and found this paper >> > m2aa8edc95dfadc5e/1297190036/Ilyenkov+and+Revolution+in+ >> Psychology.pdf?px-hash=27b6c2e8e5025382eccf85932e37ac >> 586abaa5df&px-time=1397713488>with >> >> some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov >> (and >> Spinoza?). >> >> I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with >> Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. >> >> Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking >> body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> > > From rakahu@utu.fi Thu Apr 17 08:07:20 2014 From: rakahu@utu.fi (Rauno Huttunen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 15:07:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> References: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> Message-ID: Hello, I think that there could be some common elements between Vygotskian logic of ZPD and Iljenkovian dialectical logic. Rauno Huttunen ________________________________________ L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] käyttäjän Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] puolesta L?hetetty: 17. huhtikuuta 2014 17:52 Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky Though I can see how you caan relate the question of thought and matter to the concept of perewzhivanie, I really think these are questions at a different level of abstraction and you had better leave perezhivanie out of it, to tackle the relevance of Spinoza to Vygotsky's psychology. I think he idea of criticising Vygotsky from the point of view of Ilyenkov is not likely to be fruitful. Criticising Vygotsky from the standpoint of Spinoza even less so. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Dear xmca colleagues, > > I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical foundations > of CHAT. > > Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical > Logic" > and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is > really interesting. > > So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky and > Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk experiment), I > searched the internet and found this paper > with > some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov (and > Spinoza?). > > I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with > Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. > > Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking > body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". > > Thank you > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Apr 17 08:12:01 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 01:12:01 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: References: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> Message-ID: <534FEF41.6080406@mira.net> Certainly! Ilyenkov (in my view) builds on Vygotsky. My reservations were about *criticising*, i.e., using Ilyenkov against Vygotsky. Reading Ilyenkov to support a reading of Vygotsky would be most fruitful. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Rauno Huttunen wrote: > Hello, > > I think that there could be some common elements between Vygotskian logic of ZPD and Iljenkovian dialectical logic. > > Rauno Huttunen > ________________________________________ > L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] käyttäjän Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] puolesta > L?hetetty: 17. huhtikuuta 2014 17:52 > Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky > > Though I can see how you caan relate the question of thought and matter > to the concept of perewzhivanie, I really think these are questions at a > different level of abstraction and you had better leave perezhivanie out > of it, to tackle the relevance of Spinoza to Vygotsky's psychology. I > think he idea of criticising Vygotsky from the point of view of Ilyenkov > is not likely to be fruitful. Criticising Vygotsky from the standpoint > of Spinoza even less so. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > >> Dear xmca colleagues, >> >> I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical foundations >> of CHAT. >> >> Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical >> Logic" >> and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is >> really interesting. >> >> So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky and >> Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk experiment), I >> searched the internet and found this paper >> with >> some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov (and >> Spinoza?). >> >> I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with >> Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. >> >> Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking >> body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 17 08:40:26 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 16:40:26 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: <534FEF41.6080406@mira.net> References: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> <534FEF41.6080406@mira.net> Message-ID: Ch. 11, problem of the general (universal) may serve as the most direct/practical relevance to your relations between LSV & Ilyenkov. It is an important principle in the unit of analysis. Davydov's & Radzikhovskii's (1985) paper, Vygotsky's theory and the activity-oriented approach in psychology, may help you to relate LSV to Leontyev's Activity Theory via the philosophical elaboration of activity as an explanatory principle. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=inI3AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=culture+communication+and+cognition+vygotskian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hfRPU7uHG-qf7gbroYCYCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=culture%20communication%20and%20cognition%20vygotskian&f=false Best, Huw On 17 April 2014 16:12, Andy Blunden wrote: > Certainly! Ilyenkov (in my view) builds on Vygotsky. My reservations were > about *criticising*, i.e., using Ilyenkov against Vygotsky. > Reading Ilyenkov to support a reading of Vygotsky would be most fruitful. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Rauno Huttunen wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I think that there could be some common elements between Vygotskian logic >> of ZPD and Iljenkovian dialectical logic. >> >> Rauno Huttunen >> ________________________________________ >> L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd. >> edu] käyttäjän Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] puolesta >> L?hetetty: 17. huhtikuuta 2014 17:52 >> Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky >> >> Though I can see how you caan relate the question of thought and matter >> to the concept of perewzhivanie, I really think these are questions at a >> different level of abstraction and you had better leave perezhivanie out >> of it, to tackle the relevance of Spinoza to Vygotsky's psychology. I >> think he idea of criticising Vygotsky from the point of view of Ilyenkov >> is not likely to be fruitful. Criticising Vygotsky from the standpoint >> of Spinoza even less so. >> >> Andy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> >> >> Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: >> >> >>> Dear xmca colleagues, >>> >>> I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical >>> foundations >>> of CHAT. >>> >>> Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical >>> Logic" >>> and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, is >>> really interesting. >>> >>> So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky >>> and >>> Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk >>> experiment), I >>> searched the internet and found this paper >>> >> m2aa8edc95dfadc5e/1297190036/Ilyenkov+and+Revolution+in+ >>> Psychology.pdf?px-hash=27b6c2e8e5025382eccf85932e37ac >>> 586abaa5df&px-time=1397713488>with >>> some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov >>> (and >>> Spinoza?). >>> >>> I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with >>> Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if possible. >>> >>> Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking >>> body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Thu Apr 17 21:52:09 2014 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 13:52:09 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky In-Reply-To: References: <534FEACB.7080205@mira.net> <534FEF41.6080406@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you a lot Huw! Wagner On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 12:40 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Ch. 11, problem of the general (universal) may serve as the most > direct/practical relevance to your relations between LSV & Ilyenkov. It is > an important principle in the unit of analysis. > > Davydov's & Radzikhovskii's (1985) paper, Vygotsky's theory and the > activity-oriented approach in psychology, may help you to relate LSV to > Leontyev's Activity Theory via the philosophical elaboration of activity as > an explanatory principle. > > > http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=inI3AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=culture+communication+and+cognition+vygotskian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hfRPU7uHG-qf7gbroYCYCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=culture%20communication%20and%20cognition%20vygotskian&f=false > > Best, > Huw > > > > On 17 April 2014 16:12, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Certainly! Ilyenkov (in my view) builds on Vygotsky. My reservations were > > about *criticising*, i.e., using Ilyenkov against Vygotsky. > > Reading Ilyenkov to support a reading of Vygotsky would be most fruitful. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > Rauno Huttunen wrote: > > > >> Hello, > >> > >> I think that there could be some common elements between Vygotskian > logic > >> of ZPD and Iljenkovian dialectical logic. > >> > >> Rauno Huttunen > >> ________________________________________ > >> L?hett?j?: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu[xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd. > >> edu] käyttäjän Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] puolesta > >> L?hetetty: 17. huhtikuuta 2014 17:52 > >> Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Aihe: [Xmca-l] Re: Ilyenkov and Vygotsky > >> > >> Though I can see how you caan relate the question of thought and matter > >> to the concept of perewzhivanie, I really think these are questions at a > >> different level of abstraction and you had better leave perezhivanie out > >> of it, to tackle the relevance of Spinoza to Vygotsky's psychology. I > >> think he idea of criticising Vygotsky from the point of view of Ilyenkov > >> is not likely to be fruitful. Criticising Vygotsky from the standpoint > >> of Spinoza even less so. > >> > >> Andy > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Andy Blunden* > >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > >> > >> > >> Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Dear xmca colleagues, > >>> > >>> I am still struggling to learn philosophy and the philosophical > >>> foundations > >>> of CHAT. > >>> > >>> Righ now I am reading Ilyenkov "Dialetical > >>> Logic >" > >>> and the "thinking body" concept presented on chapter 2, about Spinoza, > is > >>> really interesting. > >>> > >>> So after listening to some claims of the relationship between Vygotsky > >>> and > >>> Ilyenkov (that I discovered was also involved in the Zagorsk > >>> experiment), I > >>> searched the internet and found this paper > >>> >>> m2aa8edc95dfadc5e/1297190036/Ilyenkov+and+Revolution+in+ > >>> Psychology.pdf?px-hash=27b6c2e8e5025382eccf85932e37ac > >>> 586abaa5df&px-time=1397713488>with > >>> some critics to Vygotsky and Leontiev from the perspective of Ilyenkov > >>> (and > >>> Spinoza?). > >>> > >>> I don't know much philosophy yet, and I am also not so familiar with > >>> Leontiev's theory, so I wanted some opinion on these critics if > possible. > >>> > >>> Also I was wondering if it is reasonable to approach Ilyenkov "thinking > >>> body" with Vygotsky "*perezhivanie*". > >>> > >>> Thank you > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sat Apr 19 15:00:44 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 07:00:44 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] The Wreck of the Sewol Message-ID: For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 20:14:24 2014 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 03:14:24 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?The_Wreck_of_the_Sewol?= Message-ID: Message from Francine: David, Please extend our deepest sympathies to all South Koreans. Also, the connection you have made with Vygotsky?s last lectures is right on the mark. The creative innovation person who thinks for him/herself has a chance of saving themselves (and others). Emergency preparedness training should be part of a child?s education, but it has to emphasize situational awareness and that everyone is a ?first responder.? In a Army combat simulation recently, my son took the initiative and single handedly took out a machine gun nest that was decimating dozens of people. This was a not a videogame but ?in the field.? Other people there waited passively for orders from a commander who had already been designated as ?dead? and they ?died?. Unfortunately, some of the campus security training (that I have observed) stressed student passivity - wait to be rescued. It did not teach situational awareness and action plans. Here?s a good question - When they first got on board, were the Korean students given any training on what to do in case the ship was sinking? I hope there will be an opportunity for you to share your insights with a larger audience (letter to a newspaper, publication. or conference presentation). Sent from Windows Mail From: David Kellogg Sent: ?Saturday?, ?April? ?19?, ?2014 ?5?:?01? ?PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Apr 20 05:15:21 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:15:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol Message-ID: Thank you david...well said. ?Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: David Kellogg Date:04/19/2014 6:00 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] The Wreck of the Sewol For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Apr 20 05:18:21 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:18:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol Message-ID: Why do we believe everything has to be taught...we are no different from any other species on this planet...we have allowed the "cunning of reason" to detract from our "species being." Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info? Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities? www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: larry smolucha Date:04/19/2014 11:14 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol Message from Francine: David, Please extend our deepest sympathies to all South Koreans. Also, the connection you have made with Vygotsky?s last lectures is right on the mark. The creative innovation person who thinks for him/herself has a chance of saving themselves (and others). Emergency preparedness training should be part of a child?s education, but it has to emphasize situational awareness and that everyone is a ?first responder.? In a Army combat simulation recently, my son took the initiative and single handedly took out a machine gun nest that was decimating dozens of people. This was a not a videogame but ?in the field.? Other people there waited passively for orders from a commander who had already been designated as ?dead? and they ?died?. Unfortunately, some of the campus security training (that I have observed) stressed student passivity -? wait to be rescued. It did not teach situational awareness and action plans. Here?s a good question - When they first got on board, were the Korean students given any training on what to do in case the ship was sinking? I hope there will be an opportunity for you to share your insights with a larger audience (letter to a newspaper, publication. or conference presentation). Sent from Windows Mail From: David Kellogg Sent: ?Saturday?, ?April? ?19?, ?2014 ?5?:?01? ?PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Apr 20 09:01:28 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 09:01:28 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vygotsky and Mead Message-ID: Recently a question of relating Mead's *positioning exchange* theory and sociocultural approaches was explored. I mentioned Alex Gillespie's work who has co-authored articles with Jack Martin developing a neo-Meadian approach to positioning exchange. Alex Gillespie now works at the London School of Economics and with Tania Zittoun will give the Neils Bohr lecture this next week. I am posting the article if others are interested in this approach. As I read this article I was also reflecting on Charles Brazerman's book exploring writing and *Genres* . I believe the London School of Economics is developing a new *genre* which weaves together *context/situations*, AND *experiences/mind* AND *movement/positioning exchange*. The first part of the article briefly [and simply] states this genre's approach. The method used to apply the theoretical is an extended reflection on the diary of a young woman writing while living through World War II. Gillespie's and Zittoun's article concluded with this summary: "Our approach has been to build upon dialogical and sociocultural approaches, to take a temporal view based on the human body as both moving through society and as the locus of experience. Analytically distinguishing proximal and distal experiences allowed us to analyse the diverse dynamics and negotiation that take place as people move through complex worlds, and how experiences from distal contexts interact with immediate experiences, becoming more or less integrated. Neils Bohr argued that each method of experimenting with, for example atoms, needed to be understood on its own terms. Different forms of measurement might suggest, for example, that an atom is a wave or a particle. Bohr argued that even though such accounts were logically incompatible, they had to be seen as complementary (Valsiner, 2014a). We want to conclude by suggesting that our foregoing analysis reveals two types of complementarity. First, at an empirical level, adopting a longitudinal perspective, we suggest that June in each of the three contexts above is, in a sense, a different person. In the home context she is a ?decent? girl but later she becomes ?that type of girl.? In the home context she applies for land work to avoid more dangerous and patriotic work, but in later contexts she is happy to take credit for her patriotic planting of onions. June is different in each context, and to ask which of these is ?true? is to miss the point that they are complimentary in Niels Bohr?s sense. But, psychology also goes beyond the complementarity found in quantum mechanics. Humans have memory, and thus humans experience their own contradictions. While an atom is not troubled by being a wave in one experiment (or context) and a particle in another, humans are troubled by being different in different contexts. These are the tensions which June experiences, and which propel her own development. Second, at a theoretical level, we have been examining societal contexts on the one hand and psychological experiences on the other. Invoking these two theoretical frames may well open us to accusations of logical or epistemological inconsistency. But, we begin our research not so much from first principles, but from what is empirically evident. We are willing to build an analysis without foundations (Stenner, 2009), that is, to bring into the analysis theoretical frames first and foremost because they are useful or insightful. Thus by examining the movement of June?s body in society as well as the movements of her mind, we see a complementarity between, on the one side, society, bodies and the resistance of materiality, and on the other side, semiotic dynamics and the fluidity of imagination. Research has traditionally examined one, or the other, social constraints or semiotic imagination. Our aim has been to try and hold together these incompatible, yet complementary, aspects of our social and psychological being" THIS *genre* is one attempt to extend Meadian *genres* of position exchange and the process of developing TYPES, KINDS, [Schultz] or GENERALIZED *others*. Narrative and genre are prominently featured as WAYS of internally positioning *experiences/mind* while also being externally positioned by situations/contexts.. I read Alex and Tania's article through the insights of Charles Brazerman's book which I downloaded from this site Larry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: APRIL 18 2014 GILLESPIE ALEX ZITTOUN TANIA _body-and-mind-moving-between-contexts.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 300700 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140420/b9b40f2f/attachment.pdf From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 10:56:51 2014 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 17:56:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?The_Wreck_of_the_Sewol?= Message-ID: Message from Francine: Paul, If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? Just asking. Sent from Windows Mail From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Thank you david...well said. Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: David Kellogg Date:04/19/2014 6:00 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] The Wreck of the Sewol For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Apr 20 11:38:21 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:38:21 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol Message-ID: I question that myself Francine...should I use negative dialectic to convict bourgeois society for nonidentification... (Adorno)...or offer an alternative discourse as offered by the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism of my ancestors? ? It is as though I am caught in a bhabhaian liminal space, which for me represents a bourgeois activity of a discriminated against other...similar to Du Bois' s notion of double consciousness. ?I have reverted to questioning all of my education precisely bcuz I have an alternative consciousness which rejects the majority of the foolishness, subject/object distinction, idealism/materialism, etc., of bourgeois society. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: larry smolucha
Date:04/20/2014 1:56 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
Message from Francine: Paul, If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? Just asking. Sent from Windows Mail From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Thank you david...well said.? Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: David Kellogg Date:04/19/2014? 6:00 PM? (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l]? The Wreck of the Sewol For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 14:27:11 2014 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:27:11 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?The_Wreck_of_the_Sewol?= Message-ID: Message from Francine, Yes, I can appreciate what you are saying Paul. I have a work in progress on cultural synergy (using Vygotskian concepts) that might be of interest to you (and others on XMCA). While your experience has immediate cultural tensions, I would argue that everyone has underlying cultural tensions. Most cultures have emerged as a synthesis of beliefs, tools, customs, of interacting cultures (often in oppressive conflict). But this can be the catalyst for creativity (even when originating in conflict). You are in the process of such on emergent cultural synthesis. Sent from Windows Mail From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?1?:?39? ?PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity I question that myself Francine...should I use negative dialectic to convict bourgeois society for nonidentification... (Adorno)...or offer an alternative discourse as offered by the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism of my ancestors? It is as though I am caught in a bhabhaian liminal space, which for me represents a bourgeois activity of a discriminated against other...similar to Du Bois' s notion of double consciousness. I have reverted to questioning all of my education precisely bcuz I have an alternative consciousness which rejects the majority of the foolishness, subject/object distinction, idealism/materialism, etc., of bourgeois society. Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info
-------- Original message --------
From: larry smolucha
Date:04/20/2014 1:56 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
Message from Francine: Paul, If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? Just asking. Sent from Windows Mail From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Thank you david...well said. Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com www.readingroomcurriculum.com www.paulcmocombe.info Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities www.routledge.com/9780415714372 -------- Original message -------- From: David Kellogg Date:04/19/2014 6:00 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] The Wreck of the Sewol For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, reporters, and even surviving teachers. Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship sank. Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be rescued by the arriving fishing boats? I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the faculty invisible. Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise in speech. I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw off the social environment when that social environment has become murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this rather too well. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From dkellogg60@gmail.com Sun Apr 20 15:44:44 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 07:44:44 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of the by-products of Korea being on-line 24 hours a day is that false information is extremely plentiful. Initially, for example, it was reported that the ship had struck a rock, that all the teachers had survived, and that many of the children, trapped in air pockets, were texting their parents on shore. None of this appears to be true.The accident appears to have been caused by a sudden turn of the helm by the third mate, who had less than one year of experience and was navigating a swift current at high speed while the captain was snug in his bunk below. The current seems to have seized the boat and spun it, causing the cargo to shift and the boat to list to the point where it was taking in water over the side. At that point, as any sailor knows, it is time to abandon ship. But no order to abandon ship was ever given, and the boat went down with its lifeboats and life rafts almost entirely unlaunched. Despite this, all the crew but two appear to have survived (the purser and a junior crew member stayed behind to help children, and are now missing). About a third of the children were rescued. Only three out of the fourteen teachers lived. I think that knowledge is like anything else in a stratified society; it is highly stratified, and those who make decisions are often (almost always) least qualified to do so by virtue of their isolation from the consequences, which means isolation from facts on the ground and at the gunwale. For example, the captain's reason for not abandoning ship was that the currents were very swift and he was afraid the children would be swept away if they launched the life rafts (true); he thought that the wreck would stabilize itself (as it would have if they had struck a rock) and that the kids would be better off near the floating wreck. When something like the internet temporarily replaces that stratification with atomization, this does not automatically place vital information at the disposal of those who most urgently need it. It is far more likely to give them misleading and murderous information instead. For example, the texts from trapped children, incredibly, appear to be the work of bored pranksters with too much time and a "smart" phone on their hands; already one person has died in the rush to rescue "trapped" children who probably don't exist. I don't think that Vygotsky was anti-education or opposed to equal access to educational artifacts; he would not have been against knowing how to swim or opposed to distributing life jackets. I think that Vygotsky's point was that neither a stratified empiricist-inspired social-behaviorism that was then sweeping the Soviet Union (and which is still sweeping Vygotskyan inspired education in the West) nor an atomistic naturalistic attitude to information will explain or help us to expand self-mastery, autonomy, and free will. We must somehow figure out how to replace obedience with judgment, and astonishment with foresight. As Francine says, it's a matter of creativity and imagination. But creativity and imagination is a developmental problem, and there can be no solution to it that suits every age. During the great Sichuan earthquake a few years ago, my little niece was in class. Her teacher rose to her feet and immediately rushed from the building, and most of the children followed. When I talked to Yang-yang about it, she thought the teacher did the right thing, because the children would not have left if she had just given verbal instructions; it was much better for her to demonstrate and call on the kids to follow. I can see that with very little children what Yang-yang says might be true (although of course the teacher has to go back and get the ones that didn't follow). But with older children the verbal instruction will have to suffice. By the time the children get to middle school, no verbal instruction should be necessary, and high school kids should be able to survive even the most misleading and murderous of verbal instructions. I think that's the sense in which what Paul says is true: by the time you get to be Dr. Paul Macombe, it is, as Dr. Johnson said when he was awarded a doctorate, like swimming ashore on your own and getting hit in the head with a life preserver. But how do you get all the kids safely ashore? David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 21 April 2014 06:27, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine, > > > Yes, I can appreciate what you are saying Paul. > > I have a work in progress on cultural synergy (using Vygotskian concepts) > > that might be of interest to you (and others on XMCA). While your experience > > has immediate cultural tensions, I would argue that everyone has underlying cultural > > tensions. Most cultures have emerged as a synthesis of beliefs, tools, customs, of > > interacting cultures (often in oppressive conflict). But this can be the catalyst for > > creativity (even when originating in conflict). You are in the process of such on > > emergent cultural synthesis. > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?1?:?39? ?PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > I question that myself Francine...should I use negative dialectic to convict bourgeois society for nonidentification... (Adorno)...or offer an alternative discourse as offered by the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism of my ancestors? It is as though I am caught in a bhabhaian liminal space, which for me represents a bourgeois activity of a discriminated against other...similar to Du Bois' s notion of double consciousness. I have reverted to questioning all of my education precisely bcuz I have an alternative consciousness which rejects the majority of the foolishness, subject/object distinction, idealism/materialism, etc., of bourgeois society. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: larry smolucha
Date:04/20/2014 1:56 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
>
Message from Francine: > > > Paul, > > > If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, > > why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? > > > > Just asking. > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Thank you david...well said. Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > -------- Original message -------- > From: David Kellogg > Date:04/19/2014 6:00 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] The Wreck of the Sewol > > For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The > nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of > the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last > high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. > > It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but > no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing > for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it > on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate > with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, > reporters, and even surviving teachers. > > Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done > his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for > permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the > building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. > > The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but > he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about > prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a > poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to > leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. > > There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after > impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and > talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to > remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the > intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone > recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship > sank. > > Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, > eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school > leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead > their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could > slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be > rescued by the arriving fishing boats? > > I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this > in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last > lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before > he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and > Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will > soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the > faculty invisible. > > Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that > will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. > Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically > unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal > opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure > not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. > > Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology > is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite > right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of > Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal > nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative > and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how > completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise > in speech. > > I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the > bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw > off the social environment when that social environment has become > murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And > the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this > rather too well. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From ablunden@mira.net Sun Apr 20 19:27:33 2014 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:27:33 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53548215.1060802@mira.net> Paul, making an adjective our of your name, using it to name a foundation and then calling yourself president of the foundation goes so far beyond anything in contemporary Anglo-American culture, beyond even what Jesus Christ did, that I could only take it as satirical. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > I question that myself Francine...should I use negative dialectic to convict bourgeois society for nonidentification... (Adorno)...or offer an alternative discourse as offered by the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism of my ancestors? It is as though I am caught in a bhabhaian liminal space, which for me represents a bourgeois activity of a discriminated against other...similar to Du Bois' s notion of double consciousness. I have reverted to questioning all of my education precisely bcuz I have an alternative consciousness which rejects the majority of the foolishness, subject/object distinction, idealism/materialism, etc., of bourgeois society. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: larry smolucha
Date:04/20/2014 1:56 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
>
Message from Francine: > > > Paul, > > > If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, > > why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? > > > > Just asking. > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Thank you david...well said. Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > -------- Original message -------- > From: David Kellogg > Date:04/19/2014 6:00 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] The Wreck of the Sewol > > For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The > nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of > the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last > high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. > > It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but > no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing > for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it > on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate > with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, > reporters, and even surviving teachers. > > Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done > his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for > permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the > building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. > > The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but > he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about > prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a > poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to > leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. > > There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after > impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and > talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to > remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the > intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone > recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship > sank. > > Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, > eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school > leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead > their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could > slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be > rescued by the arriving fishing boats? > > I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this > in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last > lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before > he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and > Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will > soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the > faculty invisible. > > Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that > will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. > Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically > unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal > opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure > not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. > > Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology > is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite > right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of > Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal > nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative > and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how > completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise > in speech. > > I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the > bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw > off the social environment when that social environment has become > murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And > the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this > rather too well. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Apr 20 19:40:03 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:40:03 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol Message-ID: <7sj5k7otid1k1vadr2lhl7ia.1398048003413@email.android.com> Andy, Speaks to my double consciousness and my attempt to avoid what frantz fanon refers to as a black man with "black skin and a white mask"....in molefi asantes' notion of afrocentricity, he speaks to the African mind and it's need for syncretism and balance. ?For so long i have attempted to syncretize my western bourgeois education with my vodou african/haitian culture....incompatible. ..so what is the solution. ..inactivity, nihilism, despair, apathy, etc. ? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden
Date:04/20/2014 10:27 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
Paul, making an adjective our of your name, using it to name a foundation and then calling yourself president of the foundation goes so far beyond anything in contemporary Anglo-American culture, beyond even what Jesus Christ did, that I could only take it as satirical. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > I question that myself Francine...should I use negative dialectic to convict bourgeois society for nonidentification... (Adorno)...or offer an alternative discourse as offered by the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism of my ancestors??? It is as though I am caught in a bhabhaian liminal space, which for me represents a bourgeois activity of a discriminated against other...similar to Du Bois' s notion of double consciousness.? I have reverted to questioning all of my education precisely bcuz I have an alternative consciousness which rejects the majority of the foolishness, subject/object distinction, idealism/materialism, etc., of bourgeois society. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: larry smolucha
Date:04/20/2014? 1:56 PM? (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
>
Message from Francine: > > > Paul, > > > If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, > > why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? > > > > Just asking. > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Thank you david...well said.? Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > -------- Original message -------- > From: David Kellogg > Date:04/19/2014? 6:00 PM? (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l]? The Wreck of the Sewol > > For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The > nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of > the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last > high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. > > It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but > no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing > for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it > on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate > with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, > reporters, and even surviving teachers. > > Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done > his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for > permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the > building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. > > The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but > he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about > prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a > poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to > leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. > > There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after > impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and > talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to > remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the > intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone > recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship > sank. > > Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, > eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school > leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead > their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could > slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be > rescued by the arriving fishing boats? > > I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this > in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last > lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before > he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and > Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will > soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the > faculty invisible. > > Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that > will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. > Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically > unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal > opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure > not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. > > Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology > is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite > right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of > Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal > nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative > and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how > completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise > in speech. > > I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the > bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw > off the social environment when that social environment has become > murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And > the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this > rather too well. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From pmocombe@mocombeian.com Sun Apr 20 19:58:05 2014 From: pmocombe@mocombeian.com (Dr. Paul C. Mocombe) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:58:05 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol Message-ID: <8gsm39j41wx8k4l3j3ux6itg.1398049085840@email.android.com> The solution is to reify the African mind via ideological apparatuses as the west did with their experiences. ?For example, in haiti against the white supremacist and bourgeois ideology of the mulatto elites, the africans of the provinces established vodou peristyles and lakous as ideological apparatuses to transmit the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism. ? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Paul C. Mocombe"
Date:04/20/2014 10:40 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: ablunden@mira.net,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
Andy, Speaks to my double consciousness and my attempt to avoid what frantz fanon refers to as a black man with "black skin and a white mask"....in molefi asantes' notion of afrocentricity, he speaks to the African mind and it's need for syncretism and balance. ?For so long i have attempted to syncretize my western bourgeois education with my vodou african/haitian culture....incompatible. ..so what is the solution. ..inactivity, nihilism, despair, apathy, etc. ? Dr. Paul C. Mocombe President The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. www.mocombeian.com? www.readingroomcurriculum.com? www.paulcmocombe.info?
-------- Original message --------
From: Andy Blunden
Date:04/20/2014? 10:27 PM? (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
Paul, making an adjective our of your name, using it to name a foundation and then calling yourself president of the foundation goes so far beyond anything in contemporary Anglo-American culture, beyond even what Jesus Christ did, that I could only take it as satirical. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote: > I question that myself Francine...should I use negative dialectic to convict bourgeois society for nonidentification... (Adorno)...or offer an alternative discourse as offered by the vodou ethic and the spirit of communism of my ancestors??? It is as though I am caught in a bhabhaian liminal space, which for me represents a bourgeois activity of a discriminated against other...similar to Du Bois' s notion of double consciousness.? I have reverted to questioning all of my education precisely bcuz I have an alternative consciousness which rejects the majority of the foolishness, subject/object distinction, idealism/materialism, etc., of bourgeois society. > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > >
-------- Original message --------
From: larry smolucha
Date:04/20/2014? 1:56 PM? (GMT-05:00)
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Wreck of the Sewol
>
Message from Francine: > > > Paul, > > > If education and getting ?enframed? by bourgeois logic ?threatens all life on earth?, > > why do you never-the-less use bourgeois titles like Dr., President, and Foundation, Inc. ? > > > > Just asking. > > > > > > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > > From: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > Sent: ?Sunday?, ?April? ?20?, ?2014 ?7?:?17? ?AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Thank you david...well said.? Many people should read althusser more...especially minorities, embourgeoised blacks and women, who have adopted this viewpoint that education and getting one "enframed" by bourgeois logic is the key to equality of opportunity, recognition, and distribution....it is an ideological apparatus, intended to recursively reorganize and reproduce a perverse ethos that threatens all life on earth! > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe > President > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc. > www.mocombeian.com > www.readingroomcurriculum.com > www.paulcmocombe.info > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities > www.routledge.com/9780415714372 > > -------- Original message -------- > From: David Kellogg > Date:04/19/2014? 6:00 PM? (GMT-05:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l]? The Wreck of the Sewol > > For three days, every newscaster in South Korea has worn black. The > nightly news consists of two hours of stories about the capsizing of > the ferry Sewol, with hundreds of high school students on their last > high school field trip, off of Jindo Island near Jeju. > > It's not like watching CNN when there is some heart-breaking story but > no news, and you get these callous talking heads hemming and hawing > for hours on end. No; here, when hearts break, you see see and hear it > on the evening news: teachers howling with grief, mothers prostrate > with emotion, and furious fathers attacking government officials, > reporters, and even surviving teachers. > > Yesterday the assistant principal, who had survived the wreck and done > his best to save his students, tried to apologize to parents for > permitting the trip. They did not accept his apology, and he left the > building, walked into the woods, and hanged himself. > > The captain is in custody. Nobody is sure what caused the wreck, but > he was one of the first to leave, and there is a lot of talk about > prosecuting him under a quaint maritime law, probably inspired by a > poor reading of Conrad's Lord Jim, that does not allow the captain to > leave the ship while there are still people who need assistance. > > There is a much more severe crime to consider though. Shortly after > impact, when the ship was already listing nearly 45 degrees and > talking in water over the side, the captain told the children to > remain where they were below decks and await instructions. Then the > intercom died and the lights went out. And we have cell phone > recordings of the children waiting patiently in the dark as the ship > sank. > > Why did they wait? Why didn't more of these high school students, > eleventh graders who were sixteen and seventeen years old, of school > leaving age, declare the broadcast null and void and begin to lead > their classes to the high side of the capsized ship, where they could > slide down the inclined plane of the boat into the water and be > rescued by the arriving fishing boats? > > I don't know the answer to that. But yesterday we were discussing this > in our weekly seminar on Vygotsky--we're translating Vygotsky's last > lectures to the Herzen Pedogogical Institute, only three months before > he died. Pedology has already been declared a bourgeois creed, and > Vygotsky knows that his students are learning a subject which will > soon cease to exist from a professor who is likewise about to join the > faculty invisible. > > Vygotsky deftly presents the prevailing view of education, one that > will be immediately familiar to every progressive teacher today. > Children are born equal, but they are everywhere made radically > unequal by social conditions. By providing children equal > opportunities and equal access to mediating artifacts, we can ensure > not only egalitarian development but a more equitable society. > > Vygotsky remarks mischievously that this view is bourgeois (pedology > is under attack as a bourgeois doctrine), and of course he is quite > right: it is the empiricist view of John Locke, of Thorndike, and of > Watson. He notes that it can't account for the profoundly internal > nature of development, that it deprives children of their initiative > and their active role in development, and that it doesn't explain how > completely new things, things the child has never heard before, arise > in speech. > > I think there is something even more immediate and pressing that the > bourgeois view can't account for either: the child's ability to throw > off the social environment when that social environment has become > murderous and only the child's own judgment can lead to safety. And > the problem is that it accounts for the child's inability to do this > rather too well. > > David Kellogg > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies From lpscholar2@gmail.com Mon Apr 21 01:34:38 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 01:34:38 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] VYGOTSKY AND SULLIVAN Message-ID: On page 104 of Charles Brazerman's book which he posted through this site he is exploring Harry Stack Sullivan and mentions in 1939 that Sullivan was instrumental in having Vygotsky's work introduced to North America,[in 1939] The reason I find this conjunction fascinating is the centrality of security and anxiety management within personality formation in Sullivan's theory of interpersonal psychiatry Brazerman, in the first half of his book, interweaves three distinct genres [Vygotsky, Schultz, and Mead/Sullivan] and suggests that currently there is a growing interest in engaging in all 3 traditions which can expand each genre through this cultural exchange. In the spirit of Mead's position exchange theory and Sullivan's interweaving Mead and Sapir within Sullivan's developmental line of inquiry, the centrality of *anxiety and security* management is brought to the fore in Brazerman's book. This line of inquiry then extends into the way writing can be a way of managing security and anxiety. Brazerman's book as presented in developing these 3 genres in conjunction is a valuable way of *reading* the contributions of each genre in relation to each other. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Apr 23 12:10:47 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 20:10:47 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Films of developmental education Message-ID: I have a current live enquiry with a member of staff at the library of congress with respect to a film titled "2 x 2 = X". This is following the remarks in Repkin (2003, p.83): "the Kharkov television studio shot the film 2 x 2 = x, which was broadcast with success on the programs of Central Television. *" "* This documentary was the first public introduction of Developmental Education. A copy of the film is now available in the Library of Congress. -- Ed." The librarian has been unable to find it yet, however. Does anyone know of further details, such as when the film was made? Also, more broadly, is anyone aware of other sources of films on Elkonin-Davydov "Developmental Education"? Best, Huw Repkin, V. V. (2003) From the History of Research into the Problems of Developmental Teaching in Kharkov. *Journal of Russian and East European Psychology*, 41(5), pp. 77-96. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Apr 23 14:24:21 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:24:21 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ping? Message-ID: Is it the time of year when someone sweeps behind the xmca mail server and turns it off, or are things rather quiet? Huw From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Wed Apr 23 16:39:12 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 23:39:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of Language? Martin From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Wed Apr 23 16:43:30 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 00:43:30 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Films of developmental education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a current live enquiry with a member of staff at the library of congress with respect to a film titled "2 x 2 = X". This is following the remarks in Repkin (2003, p.83): "the Kharkov television studio shot the film 2 x 2 = x, which was broadcast with success on the programs of Central Television. *" "* This documentary was the first public introduction of Developmental Education. A copy of the film is now available in the Library of Congress. -- Ed." The librarian has been unable to find it yet, however. Does anyone know of further details, such as when the film was made? Also, more broadly, is anyone aware of other sources of films on Elkonin-Davydov "Developmental Education"? Best, Huw Repkin, V. V. (2003) From the History of Research into the Problems of Developmental Teaching in Kharkov. *Journal of Russian and East European Psychology*, 41(5), pp. 77-96. From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Apr 23 21:44:30 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 21:44:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] 2x2=x Message-ID: Long live international intellectual collaboration!! http://savin-e.livejournal.com/38023.html From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Apr 23 21:48:41 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 21:48:41 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBb0JzQtdGC0L7QtNC+0LvQvtCz0LjRjyDQuCDQuNGB0YI=?= =?utf-8?b?0L7RgNC40Y8g0L/RgdC40YXQvtC70L7Qs9C40LhdIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu?= =?utf-8?q?youtube=2Ecom/watch=3Fv=3DOiYLBgJOkFI?= In-Reply-To: <38f8e6fd6812a218be1067003326fa8b@async.facebook.com> References: <747240185328240-505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> <38f8e6fd6812a218be1067003326fa8b@async.facebook.com> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ilya Garber Date: 2014-04-23 20:46 GMT-07:00 Subject: [??????????? ? ??????? ??????????] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiYLBgJOkFI To: ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? <505367082848886@groups.facebook.com> Ilya Garber posted in ??????????? ? ??????? ?????????? [image: Ilya Garber] Ilya Garber 8:45pm Apr 23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiYLBgJOkFI ???????? ???????? ???? ?????????????? ?????. ???????????, ?? ???????? (?) ? ?????????? ????????? ???, ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? "?????? ??? ????? ???" ????? ??? ???? (1969, ??????????? ?????? ???????????) ?? ????????? ???????-??????????????? ?????????... View Post on Facebook? Edit Email Settings? Reply to this email to add a comment. From bella.kotik@gmail.com Wed Apr 23 21:55:45 2014 From: bella.kotik@gmail.com (Bella Kotik-Friedgut) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:55:45 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, if you mean something like the following Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning and teaching. So if you need something more specific please ask. Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of > Language? > > Martin > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 04:16:45 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:16:45 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 2x2=x In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you. It's great to see! Best, Huw On 24 April 2014 05:44, mike cole wrote: > Long live international intellectual collaboration!! > > http://savin-e.livejournal.com/38023.html > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 06:35:51 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:35:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Hi Bella, Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more aligned with a sociocultural perspective: Martin On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut wrote: > Martin, if you mean something like the following > Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning and > teaching. > So if you need something more specific please ask. > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of >> Language? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> From agn3@lehigh.edu Thu Apr 24 07:41:01 2014 From: agn3@lehigh.edu (Ageliki Nicolopoulou) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 10:41:01 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I would be interested in something like that as well. My focus in the course tends to be narrative and psychology--not just language. I have not found anything worthwhile and I put my own readings together. But having a book, even a short one, to use along with this general topic would be a great idea.--Ageliki ________________ Ageliki Nicolopoulou Professor of Psychology & Global Studies Director, Social Science Research Center (SSRC) Personal Webpage: http://lehigh.academia.edu/AgelikiNicolopoulou/About Departmental Webpage: http://cas.lehigh.edu/CASWeb/default.aspx?id=1430 On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Bella, > > Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in > psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, > which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more > aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > > > > Martin > > On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > > > Martin, if you mean something like the following > > Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > > Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > > I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning > and > > teaching. > > So if you need something more specific please ask. > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> wrote: > > > >> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of > >> Language? > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 07:42:01 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:42:01 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, I would suggest looking at Chuck Bazerman's book on *Literate Action*. [accessed for free but very current] It explores psychology and culture and language and each chapter explores a particular theme. If not the entire book, than particular chapters such as chapter 9 on utterance and meaning. The focus is on rhetoric and writing but individual chapters may be helpful as introductions to the complexity of the field. The theme of *order* and *freedom* runs through the book. Larry On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 6:35 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Bella, > > Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in > psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, > which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more > aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > > > > Martin > > On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > > > Martin, if you mean something like the following > > Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > > Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > > I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning > and > > teaching. > > So if you need something more specific please ask. > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> wrote: > > > >> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of > >> Language? > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 07:46:45 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:46:45 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> Hi Laure, In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I need! It is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s Development." But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, so I think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: Hi Martin, We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... and no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send me your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in French, if you read French, I'll be happy to share). Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text book. If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? Cheers LK 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer >: Hi Bella, Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more aligned with a sociocultural perspective: Martin On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > Martin, if you mean something like the following > Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning and > teaching. > So if you need something more specific please ask. > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer >> wrote: > >> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of >> Language? >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 09:58:15 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 17:58:15 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text for a rich, involving and open-ended subject. Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints apply), and how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the topics...? Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about compliance with other concepts and procedures in the course...? How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a structured way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), or changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language itself and its cultural aspects. Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so students can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a good choice! Hope this helps... Huw On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Laure, > > In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my > course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I need! It > is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s Development." > But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, so I > think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! > > Martin > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... and > no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send me > your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in French, if > you read French, I'll be happy to share). > Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text book. > If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > Cheers > LK > > > > 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer >: > Hi Bella, > > Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in > psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, > which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more > aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > > > > Martin > > On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: > > > Martin, if you mean something like the following > > Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > > Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > > I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning > and > > teaching. > > So if you need something more specific please ask. > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >> wrote: > > > >> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of > >> Language? > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From ellampert@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 10:13:56 2014 From: ellampert@gmail.com (Elina Lampert-Shepel) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 13:13:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Films of developmental education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Huw, The movie was made in PS17, Kharkov Ukraine in 1968. I was in first grade when it was produced in my school...:-) PS 17 was a lab school along with PS 91 in Moscow, only 2 schools in the USSR at that particular time that were developing and implementing Elkonin-Davydov curriculum. The publication was a tribute to Kharkov laboratory, I consider Repkin and Dusavitskiy to be my teachers. They both worked with me as well as Vasiliy Davydov and Boris Elkonin when we were developing teacher education model grounded on cultural-historical psychology and activity theory in Moscow in the 1990s. I believe I have a CD with the movie if you can't locate it. It is in Russian, not sure if there is a version with English subtitles. Please let me know if you find one. There are tapes of classroom instruction made in PS 91 in Moscow. I may ask for additional tapes, but my sources are all in Russian. What makes you interested in 2x2=x? Thanks! Elina Lampert-Shepel, Ed.D. Associate Professor Director, Teacher Residency Program Touro College 43 West 23rd Street, Room 810 New York, NY 10010 elina.lampert-shepel@touro.edu 212- 463-0400 ext.5480 917-541-1593 (cell) ellampert (Skype) On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I have a current live enquiry with a member of staff at the library of > congress with respect to a film titled "2 x 2 = X". This is following the > remarks in Repkin (2003, p.83): > > "the Kharkov television studio shot the film 2 x 2 = x, which was broadcast > with success on the programs of Central Television. *" > > "* This documentary was the first public introduction of Developmental > Education. A copy of the film is now available in the Library of Congress. > -- Ed." > > The librarian has been unable to find it yet, however. > > Does anyone know of further details, such as when the film was made? > > Also, more broadly, is anyone aware of other sources of films on > Elkonin-Davydov "Developmental Education"? > > Best, > Huw > > Repkin, V. V. (2003) From the History of Research into the Problems of > Developmental Teaching in Kharkov. *Journal of Russian and East European > Psychology*, 41(5), pp. 77-96. > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 11:09:58 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:09:58 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 11:12:59 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 18:12:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <1140C654-9FA9-4D37-9E4B-69D205CAB465@mail.ubc.ca> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> <1140C654-9FA9-4D37-9E4B-69D205CAB465@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3637A495-1AC9-4BA2-9698-F44A39030EBE@uniandes.edu.co> Jen, I used Mike's text for more than 15 years! But it's a developmental text, and what I'm looking for now is a text that deals with the psychology of language. (The issue of why I'm writing my own developmental psychology text when Mike's exists is an interesting one, and one I've discussed at length with Mike.) Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer wrote: > Martin, have you seen Mike's text, The development of children? I'm using it for a course in a refugee camp, otherwise I really don't use textbooks, but the conditions in the camp are so fraught that a text seems best for the moment. It seems like quite a good start. I am using the 6th ed, the 7th is out, and the 6th has a few embarrassing typos, but ... this text or chapters from it may help. About your post on language, I really like Katherine Nelson's work, Young minds in social worlds. Just ideas here that you may already be aware of. Best to you - jen > > > On 2014-04-24, at 7:46 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Hi Laure, >> >> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I need! It is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s Development." But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, so I think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! >> >> Martin >> >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... and no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send me your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in French, if you read French, I'll be happy to share). >> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text book. >> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? >> Cheers >> LK >> >> >> >> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer >: >> Hi Bella, >> >> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more aligned with a sociocultural perspective: >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > wrote: >> >>> Martin, if you mean something like the following >>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language >>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. >>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning and >>> teaching. >>> So if you need something more specific please ask. >>> >>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of >>>> Language? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Thu Apr 24 11:32:53 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:32:53 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: It could possibly go in a book series we have with Sense Publishers if it emphasized creativity in socio-cultural language acquisition. (See attached) On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca > collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! > > Martin > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: > > If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Springer Book Series.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 177742 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140424/ce117e56/attachment.pdf From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 12:39:58 2014 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:39:58 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Hi, Martin was refering to one email exchange we had just before, where I was saying that we had a similar course at CNAM, Paris (so in French) but no textbook, just dispersed readings. And collectively editing a textbook on the psychology of language (language and mental development, language and thought, etc.) in a socio-historico-cultural perspective was indeed the suggestion... What do you think ? Best, LK 2014-04-24 20:32 GMT+02:00 Robert Lake : > It could possibly go in a book series we have with Sense Publishers if it > emphasized creativity in socio-cultural language acquisition. > (See attached) > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > wrote: > > > Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca > > collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! > > > > Martin > > > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: > > > > If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 12:43:28 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:43:28 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Films of developmental education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Elina, That's quite a heritage to grow up with. And its fabulous of you to share this history. One fairly significant motive I have in pursuing this line of study is an awareness that it is actually do-able. To run a school under these principles and foster real developments, not to waste children's time with robotic tasks or to discourage contemplation. The film(s) might help with that. There are some "tough minded" teachers for whom watching films of this sort may be enough to question their conviction in rote teaching methods. The other side to the coin is the tortuous (and torturous) administration that goes into schools. One only needs to attend to teacher based list-serves to realise that they have only time (and motive) for bread-crumb sized problems, "has anyone got a template for the make-and-sell part of module xyz" etc. If one teacher does some real design work, there'll be one hundred more asking for a copy. What's the point in design if the aim is to pass exams? The films help too in grounding my (our) studies of this aspect of the theory (learning activity). At present my point of enquiry is with respect to a technical definition and deeper appreciation of motive. I sense that Zinchenko had things to say about how the structure of activity (and motive) shows up in memory and I am looking forward to working through those papers. There is, fortunately, some good material -- more, at least, than my problematising can presently cope with. :) Mediation and memory are central parts of my PhD research. Davydovian principles play a significant part (creative appreciation of mathematical objects etc) although I am somewhat at arms length with his germ cell notion. The youtube film of "2 x 2 = x" that Mike posted ends rather abruptly, so I suspect you have a longer more complete version of this film. I'm most happy to see about creating versions of the film(s) with subtitles. I'm handicapped by not speaking Russian, but I think I can find helpers... Best, Huw On 24 April 2014 18:13, Elina Lampert-Shepel wrote: > Hello Huw, > > The movie was made in PS17, Kharkov Ukraine in 1968. I was in first grade > when it was produced in my school...:-) > > PS 17 was a lab school along with PS 91 in Moscow, only 2 schools in the > USSR at that particular time that were developing and implementing > Elkonin-Davydov curriculum. The publication was a tribute to Kharkov > laboratory, I consider Repkin and Dusavitskiy to be my teachers. They both > worked with me as well as Vasiliy Davydov and Boris Elkonin when we were > developing teacher education model grounded on cultural-historical > psychology and activity theory in Moscow in the 1990s. > > > I believe I have a CD with the movie if you can't locate it. It is in > Russian, not sure if there is a version with English subtitles. Please let > me know if you find one. > > There are tapes of classroom instruction made in PS 91 in Moscow. I may > ask for additional tapes, but my sources are all in Russian. > > What makes you interested in 2x2=x? > > Thanks! > > Elina Lampert-Shepel, Ed.D. > Associate Professor > Director, Teacher Residency Program > Touro College > 43 West 23rd Street, Room 810 > New York, NY 10010 > elina.lampert-shepel@touro.edu > 212- 463-0400 ext.5480 > 917-541-1593 (cell) > > ellampert (Skype) > > > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Huw Lloyd >wrote: > > > I have a current live enquiry with a member of staff at the library of > > congress with respect to a film titled "2 x 2 = X". This is following > the > > remarks in Repkin (2003, p.83): > > > > "the Kharkov television studio shot the film 2 x 2 = x, which was > broadcast > > with success on the programs of Central Television. *" > > > > "* This documentary was the first public introduction of Developmental > > Education. A copy of the film is now available in the Library of > Congress. > > -- Ed." > > > > The librarian has been unable to find it yet, however. > > > > Does anyone know of further details, such as when the film was made? > > > > Also, more broadly, is anyone aware of other sources of films on > > Elkonin-Davydov "Developmental Education"? > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > Repkin, V. V. (2003) From the History of Research into the Problems of > > Developmental Teaching in Kharkov. *Journal of Russian and East European > > Psychology*, 41(5), pp. 77-96. > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 14:16:27 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:16:27 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> Huw, If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see the contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by no means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. A text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and language would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, if you know what I mean! Language and its functions The nature of language What language users must know Language in relation to other cognitive processes Theories of the language-thought relationship Models of language processing The recognition of spoken words Visual word recognition Sentence processing Understanding and remembering discourse Language production and conversation Language and the brain Language acquisition: Biological foundations Language acquisition in special circumstances Language and the localization of function Conclusions On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text for a > rich, involving and open-ended subject. > > Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to > deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints apply), and > how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the topics...? > > Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about compliance > with other concepts and procedures in the course...? > > How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a structured > way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), or > changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language itself > and its cultural aspects. > > Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so students > can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a good > choice! > > Hope this helps... > Huw > > > > > On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Hi Laure, >> >> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my >> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I need! It >> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s Development." >> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, so I >> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! >> >> Martin >> >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... and >> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send me >> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in French, if >> you read French, I'll be happy to share). >> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text book. >> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? >> Cheers >> LK >> >> >> >> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer > >: >> Hi Bella, >> >> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in >> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, >> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more >> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > wrote: >> >>> Martin, if you mean something like the following >>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language >>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. >>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning >> and >>> teaching. >>> So if you need something more specific please ask. >>> >>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of >>>> Language? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 14:46:53 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:46:53 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author is reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach language to non-humans"). I would start by debunking that. Best, Huw On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer wrote: > Huw, > > If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see the > contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: > > > > And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by no > means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the > innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. A > text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and language > would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, if > you know what I mean! > > Language and its functions > The nature of language > What language users must know > Language in relation to other cognitive processes > Theories of the language-thought relationship > Models of language processing > The recognition of spoken words > Visual word recognition > Sentence processing > Understanding and remembering discourse > Language production and conversation > Language and the brain > Language acquisition: Biological foundations > Language acquisition in special circumstances > Language and the localization of function > Conclusions > > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text > for a > > rich, involving and open-ended subject. > > > > Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to > > deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints apply), > and > > how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the > topics...? > > > > Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about compliance > > with other concepts and procedures in the course...? > > > > How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a structured > > way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), or > > changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language itself > > and its cultural aspects. > > > > Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so > students > > can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a good > > choice! > > > > Hope this helps... > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >> Hi Laure, > >> > >> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my > >> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I need! > It > >> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s Development." > >> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, so I > >> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer >> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Martin, > >> > >> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... > and > >> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send > me > >> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in > French, if > >> you read French, I'll be happy to share). > >> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text book. > >> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > >> Cheers > >> LK > >> > >> > >> > >> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer >> >: > >> Hi Bella, > >> > >> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in > >> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, > >> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and > more > >> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > >> > >> < > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > bella.kotik@gmail.com > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> Martin, if you mean something like the following > >>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > >>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > >>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning > >> and > >>> teaching. > >>> So if you need something more specific please ask. > >>> > >>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology > and/of > >>>> Language? > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 14:57:03 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 21:57:03 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <3BFB5912-1940-4068-9CB0-266617885EDB@uniandes.edu.co> But the efforts to teach language to non-humans are interesting, no? And they generally employ signs rather than words. I think there's general awareness that language need not be verbal. Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author is > reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach language > to non-humans"). I would start by debunking that. > > Best, > Huw > > > > > On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Huw, >> >> If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see the >> contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: >> >> >> >> And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by no >> means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the >> innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. A >> text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and language >> would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, if >> you know what I mean! >> >> Language and its functions >> The nature of language >> What language users must know >> Language in relation to other cognitive processes >> Theories of the language-thought relationship >> Models of language processing >> The recognition of spoken words >> Visual word recognition >> Sentence processing >> Understanding and remembering discourse >> Language production and conversation >> Language and the brain >> Language acquisition: Biological foundations >> Language acquisition in special circumstances >> Language and the localization of function >> Conclusions >> >> >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text >> for a >>> rich, involving and open-ended subject. >>> >>> Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to >>> deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints apply), >> and >>> how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the >> topics...? >>> >>> Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about compliance >>> with other concepts and procedures in the course...? >>> >>> How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a structured >>> way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), or >>> changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language itself >>> and its cultural aspects. >>> >>> Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so >> students >>> can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a good >>> choice! >>> >>> Hope this helps... >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Laure, >>>> >>>> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my >>>> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I need! >> It >>>> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s Development." >>>> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, so I >>>> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Martin, >>>> >>>> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... >> and >>>> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send >> me >>>> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in >> French, if >>>> you read French, I'll be happy to share). >>>> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text book. >>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? >>>> Cheers >>>> LK >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer >>> >: >>>> Hi Bella, >>>> >>>> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in >>>> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, >>>> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and >> more >>>> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: >>>> >>>> < >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >> bella.kotik@gmail.com >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Martin, if you mean something like the following >>>>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language >>>>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. >>>>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning >>>> and >>>>> teaching. >>>>> So if you need something more specific please ask. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology >> and/of >>>>>> Language? >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 15:10:02 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:10:02 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <3BFB5912-1940-4068-9CB0-266617885EDB@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> <3BFB5912-1940-4068-9CB0-266617885EDB@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 24 April 2014 22:57, Martin John Packer wrote: > But the efforts to teach language to non-humans are interesting, no? And > they generally employ signs rather than words. I think there's general > awareness that language need not be verbal. > > Yes, but what about the history of experience evoked by the tongue or finger wagging? What will you have: language as a carrier and, oh, there's this other thing called culture? For nature of language, you could study toddlers. That's enough to indicate that "language as signing" is a phoney division. Best, Huw > Martin > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author is > > reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach language > > to non-humans"). I would start by debunking that. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >> Huw, > >> > >> If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see > the > >> contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: > >> > >> < > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >> > >> And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by no > >> means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the > >> innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. A > >> text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and language > >> would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, if > >> you know what I mean! > >> > >> Language and its functions > >> The nature of language > >> What language users must know > >> Language in relation to other cognitive processes > >> Theories of the language-thought relationship > >> Models of language processing > >> The recognition of spoken words > >> Visual word recognition > >> Sentence processing > >> Understanding and remembering discourse > >> Language production and conversation > >> Language and the brain > >> Language acquisition: Biological foundations > >> Language acquisition in special circumstances > >> Language and the localization of function > >> Conclusions > >> > >> > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> > >>> I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text > >> for a > >>> rich, involving and open-ended subject. > >>> > >>> Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to > >>> deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints apply), > >> and > >>> how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the > >> topics...? > >>> > >>> Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about > compliance > >>> with other concepts and procedures in the course...? > >>> > >>> How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a > structured > >>> way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), or > >>> changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language > itself > >>> and its cultural aspects. > >>> > >>> Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so > >> students > >>> can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a > good > >>> choice! > >>> > >>> Hope this helps... > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Laure, > >>>> > >>>> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my > >>>> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I > need! > >> It > >>>> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s > Development." > >>>> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, > so I > >>>> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Martin, > >>>> > >>>> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... > >> and > >>>> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send > >> me > >>>> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in > >> French, if > >>>> you read French, I'll be happy to share). > >>>> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text > book. > >>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > >>>> Cheers > >>>> LK > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>> >: > >>>> Hi Bella, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in > >>>> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this > text, > >>>> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and > >> more > >>>> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > >>>> > >>>> < > >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >>>> > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > >> bella.kotik@gmail.com > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Martin, if you mean something like the following > >>>>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > >>>>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > >>>>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language > learning > >>>> and > >>>>> teaching. > >>>>> So if you need something more specific please ask. > >>>>> > >>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology > >> and/of > >>>>>> Language? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 15:28:28 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:28:28 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> <3BFB5912-1940-4068-9CB0-266617885EDB@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Huw, I'm not disagreeing. It's just that I'm not sure what it is in Whitney's book that you're responding to. I have the impression it's a generally cognitive approach to language, and that's one reason I would like to find something better. What would an ideal cultural-historical textbook on language and psychology include? - language acquisition (with an emphasis on pragmatics and discourse) - language and nonverbal communication - the evolution of language - language and the brain: not simply localization, but the way lueracy transforms the brain, etc. - language and thought: LSV and newer research - language and the oher psychological functions as a dynamic system - linguistics from a systemic functional approach (plus Chomsky as a contrast?) - (cross-cultural studies of) language and perception (color?) - metaphor a la Lakoff... ...??? Laure, I would be very interested to see your syllabus, though my French is lousy! Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 24 April 2014 22:57, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> But the efforts to teach language to non-humans are interesting, no? And >> they generally employ signs rather than words. I think there's general >> awareness that language need not be verbal. >> >> > Yes, but what about the history of experience evoked by the tongue or > finger wagging? > > What will you have: language as a carrier and, oh, there's this other thing > called culture? > > For nature of language, you could study toddlers. That's enough to > indicate that "language as signing" is a phoney division. > > Best, > Huw > > > >> Martin >> >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author is >>> reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach language >>> to non-humans"). I would start by debunking that. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>>> Huw, >>>> >>>> If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see >> the >>>> contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: >>>> >>>> < >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> >>>> >>>> And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by no >>>> means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the >>>> innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. A >>>> text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and language >>>> would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, if >>>> you know what I mean! >>>> >>>> Language and its functions >>>> The nature of language >>>> What language users must know >>>> Language in relation to other cognitive processes >>>> Theories of the language-thought relationship >>>> Models of language processing >>>> The recognition of spoken words >>>> Visual word recognition >>>> Sentence processing >>>> Understanding and remembering discourse >>>> Language production and conversation >>>> Language and the brain >>>> Language acquisition: Biological foundations >>>> Language acquisition in special circumstances >>>> Language and the localization of function >>>> Conclusions >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text >>>> for a >>>>> rich, involving and open-ended subject. >>>>> >>>>> Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to >>>>> deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints apply), >>>> and >>>>> how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the >>>> topics...? >>>>> >>>>> Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about >> compliance >>>>> with other concepts and procedures in the course...? >>>>> >>>>> How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a >> structured >>>>> way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), or >>>>> changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language >> itself >>>>> and its cultural aspects. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so >>>> students >>>>> can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a >> good >>>>> choice! >>>>> >>>>> Hope this helps... >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Laure, >>>>>> >>>>>> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in my >>>>>> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I >> need! >>>> It >>>>>> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s >> Development." >>>>>> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, >> so I >>>>>> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Martin, >>>>>> >>>>>> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in French... >>>> and >>>>>> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you send >>>> me >>>>>> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in >>>> French, if >>>>>> you read French, I'll be happy to share). >>>>>> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text >> book. >>>>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> LK >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>>>> >: >>>>>> Hi Bella, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in >>>>>> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this >> text, >>>>>> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and >>>> more >>>>>> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: >>>>>> >>>>>> < >>>> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin, if you mean something like the following >>>>>>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language >>>>>>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. >>>>>>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language >> learning >>>>>> and >>>>>>> teaching. >>>>>>> So if you need something more specific please ask. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < >>>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology >>>> and/of >>>>>>>> Language? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From dkellogg60@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 15:35:17 2014 From: dkellogg60@gmail.com (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 07:35:17 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Larry-- I am still puzzling over the first sentence: "Writing, as all life is, is activity." Compare: "What life is is an activity." "What lifeness lives is activeness." I guess what puzzles me is the lack of activity in the use of "to be". Relational verbs are very strange beings, and even stranger as processes. As processes, they require two different kinds of be-ers to work, and they claim set up a tautology that really isn't one. David Kellogg Hankuk University of Foreign Studies On 24 April 2014 23:42, Larry Purss wrote: > Martin, > I would suggest looking at Chuck Bazerman's book on *Literate Action*. > [accessed for free but very current] > It explores psychology and culture and language and each chapter explores a > particular theme. > > If not the entire book, than particular chapters such as chapter 9 on > utterance and meaning. > > The focus is on rhetoric and writing but individual chapters may be helpful > as introductions to the complexity of the field. > The theme of *order* and *freedom* runs through the book. > Larry > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 6:35 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > wrote: > > > Hi Bella, > > > > Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in > > psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, > > which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and > more > > aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > > > > < > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > > > > Martin > > > > On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > bella.kotik@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Martin, if you mean something like the following > > > Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > > > Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > > > I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning > > and > > > teaching. > > > So if you need something more specific please ask. > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology > and/of > > >> Language? > > >> > > >> Martin > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Apr 24 15:51:07 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:51:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <9A89A9EB-D33B-445F-8EEB-A8885A946AFA@uniandes.edu.co> Larry, Looking at the description that Chuck posted a while ago.... " Lots of Vygotsky and Activity theory, of course, along with phenomenology, pragmatism, structurational sociology, interactionism, language, writing studies, etc." ...the books (2 vols) look great for a graduate course, perhaps interdisciplinary. But for an undergrad course that is one in a series on "basic processes in psychology" (yes, the phrase contains many dubious implications) I don't think they would work. Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Martin, > I would suggest looking at Chuck Bazerman's book on *Literate Action*. > [accessed for free but very current] > It explores psychology and culture and language and each chapter explores a > particular theme. > > If not the entire book, than particular chapters such as chapter 9 on > utterance and meaning. > > The focus is on rhetoric and writing but individual chapters may be helpful > as introductions to the complexity of the field. > The theme of *order* and *freedom* runs through the book. > Larry > > > On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 6:35 AM, Martin John Packer > wrote: > >> Hi Bella, >> >> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language in >> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this text, >> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, and more >> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: >> >> >> >> Martin >> >> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut >> wrote: >> >>> Martin, if you mean something like the following >>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language >>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. >>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language learning >> and >>> teaching. >>> So if you need something more specific please ask. >>> >>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>> wrote: >>> >>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology and/of >>>> Language? >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Thu Apr 24 15:53:27 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:53:27 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <60628791-2928-4DDA-868A-28ADEC5DD9A0@uniandes.edu.co> <94EFAD7E-CD0F-42A2-BDC2-38DED718E976@uniandes.edu.co> <3BFB5912-1940-4068-9CB0-266617885EDB@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: That would be nice. I think you'd get more than undergrads tuning in too. Huw On 24 April 2014 23:28, Martin John Packer wrote: > Huw, I'm not disagreeing. It's just that I'm not sure what it is in > Whitney's book that you're responding to. I have the impression it's a > generally cognitive approach to language, and that's one reason I would > like to find something better. > > What would an ideal cultural-historical textbook on language and > psychology include? > > - language acquisition (with an emphasis on pragmatics and discourse) > - language and nonverbal communication > - the evolution of language > - language and the brain: not simply localization, but the way lueracy > transforms the brain, etc. > - language and thought: LSV and newer research > - language and the oher psychological functions as a dynamic system > - linguistics from a systemic functional approach (plus Chomsky as a > contrast?) > - (cross-cultural studies of) language and perception (color?) > - metaphor a la Lakoff... > ...??? > > Laure, I would be very interested to see your syllabus, though my French > is lousy! > > Martin > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 24 April 2014 22:57, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >> But the efforts to teach language to non-humans are interesting, no? And > >> they generally employ signs rather than words. I think there's general > >> awareness that language need not be verbal. > >> > >> > > Yes, but what about the history of experience evoked by the tongue or > > finger wagging? > > > > What will you have: language as a carrier and, oh, there's this other > thing > > called culture? > > > > For nature of language, you could study toddlers. That's enough to > > indicate that "language as signing" is a phoney division. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > >> Martin > >> > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> > >>> Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author > is > >>> reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach > language > >>> to non-humans"). I would start by debunking that. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Huw, > >>>> > >>>> If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see > >> the > >>>> contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: > >>>> > >>>> < > >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >>>> > >>>> And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by > no > >>>> means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the > >>>> innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. > A > >>>> text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and > language > >>>> would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, > if > >>>> you know what I mean! > >>>> > >>>> Language and its functions > >>>> The nature of language > >>>> What language users must know > >>>> Language in relation to other cognitive processes > >>>> Theories of the language-thought relationship > >>>> Models of language processing > >>>> The recognition of spoken words > >>>> Visual word recognition > >>>> Sentence processing > >>>> Understanding and remembering discourse > >>>> Language production and conversation > >>>> Language and the brain > >>>> Language acquisition: Biological foundations > >>>> Language acquisition in special circumstances > >>>> Language and the localization of function > >>>> Conclusions > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text > >>>> for a > >>>>> rich, involving and open-ended subject. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to > >>>>> deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints > apply), > >>>> and > >>>>> how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the > >>>> topics...? > >>>>> > >>>>> Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about > >> compliance > >>>>> with other concepts and procedures in the course...? > >>>>> > >>>>> How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a > >> structured > >>>>> way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), > or > >>>>> changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language > >> itself > >>>>> and its cultural aspects. > >>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so > >>>> students > >>>>> can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a > >> good > >>>>> choice! > >>>>> > >>>>> Hope this helps... > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Laure, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in > my > >>>>>> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I > >> need! > >>>> It > >>>>>> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s > >> Development." > >>>>>> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, > >> so I > >>>>>> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer < > laure.kloetzer@gmail.com > >>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Martin, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in > French... > >>>> and > >>>>>> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you > send > >>>> me > >>>>>> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in > >>>> French, if > >>>>>> you read French, I'll be happy to share). > >>>>>> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text > >> book. > >>>>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > >>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>> LK > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>>>> >: > >>>>>> Hi Bella, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language > in > >>>>>> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this > >> text, > >>>>>> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, > and > >>>> more > >>>>>> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> < > >>>> > >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > >>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com > >>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Martin, if you mean something like the following > >>>>>>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > >>>>>>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > >>>>>>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language > >> learning > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>> teaching. > >>>>>>> So if you need something more specific please ask. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > >>>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology > >>>> and/of > >>>>>>>> Language? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From vygotsky@unm.edu Thu Apr 24 22:09:58 2014 From: vygotsky@unm.edu (Vera John-Steiner) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:09:58 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <001f01cf6044$9c209f60$d461de20$@edu> I would sign on to that. I do have an old chapter with Paul Tatter that appeared in a volume edited by Bruce Bain: The Sociogenesis of Language and Human Conduct with an introduction by Mike. If you end up with a book of readings this book may offer some pickings for you, including Courtney Cazden, Dell Hymes and Ivan Illich. I would also like to suggest a short book by Dan Slobin on Psycholinguistics. The chapter headings you enumerate in a previous e-mail sound a little heavy on experimental work and light on narrative and discourse analysis. Vera -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 12:10 PM To: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! Martin On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > wrote: If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Apr 25 04:56:26 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:56:26 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <001f01cf6044$9c209f60$d461de20$@edu> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> <001f01cf6044$9c209f60$d461de20$@edu> Message-ID: <163181F5-2958-43A6-A3EA-59FAD0657F1C@uniandes.edu.co> Hi Vera, Yes, of course there's Bruner's work on narrative etc. Stern is good, though his book was published in 1979. I wonder whether something like the 2011 book of the same title by Traxler might be better. Until we roll our own. The Bain book is selling for $300 on Amazon! Might you have a pdf of your chapter? Martin On Apr 25, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > I would sign on to that. I do have an old chapter with Paul Tatter that > appeared in a volume edited by Bruce Bain: The Sociogenesis of Language and > Human Conduct with an introduction by Mike. If you end up with a book of > readings this book may offer some pickings for you, including Courtney > Cazden, Dell Hymes and Ivan Illich. I would also like to suggest a short > book by Dan Slobin on Psycholinguistics. > The chapter headings you enumerate in a previous e-mail sound a little heavy > on experimental work and light on narrative and discourse analysis. > Vera > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 12:10 PM > To: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language > > Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca > collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! > > Martin > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > wrote: > > If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Apr 25 06:31:15 2014 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 06:31:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: <163181F5-2958-43A6-A3EA-59FAD0657F1C@uniandes.edu.co> References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> <001f01cf6044$9c209f60$d461de20$@edu> <163181F5-2958-43A6-A3EA-59FAD0657F1C@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Martin, The background to my recommendation of Bazerman's book goes back to my own undergraduate experience with a basic course in the *behavioural sciences* taught by *Fred Brown* who studied with John Dewey in Chicago. A key text used in the course was written by Dewey. I left that course with an enduring QUESTION of the reciprocal relation of the social to the personal. Reading Bazerman's book recast me back to that earlier undergraduate course that left me with an ABIDING QUESTION that continues to reverberate [most recently while reading Bazerman's book.]. Reading Bazerman's book I was reminded of my personal response to this particular undergraduate course which I took in the 1970's and wondered about this theme of developing *abiding questions* as a key purpose of undergraduate courses Your reference to Whitney's text as maybe too cognitive in its *genres* I read as you wanting to help the students come to QUESTION this cognitive bias in the psychological literature exploring language.. Bazerman's text itself may be too advanced, but the general theme of *genres* and *social facts* in Bazerman's book develops a central aspect of the psychology of language which offers a clear contrast with more cognitive biases. On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Martin John Packer wrote: > Hi Vera, > > Yes, of course there's Bruner's work on narrative etc. > > Stern is good, though his book was published in 1979. I wonder whether > something like the 2011 book of the same title by Traxler might be better. > Until we roll our own. > > The Bain book is selling for $300 on Amazon! Might you have a pdf of your > chapter? > > Martin > > On Apr 25, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Vera John-Steiner wrote: > > > I would sign on to that. I do have an old chapter with Paul Tatter that > > appeared in a volume edited by Bruce Bain: The Sociogenesis of Language > and > > Human Conduct with an introduction by Mike. If you end up with a book of > > readings this book may offer some pickings for you, including Courtney > > Cazden, Dell Hymes and Ivan Illich. I would also like to suggest a short > > book by Dan Slobin on Psycholinguistics. > > The chapter headings you enumerate in a previous e-mail sound a little > heavy > > on experimental work and light on narrative and discourse analysis. > > Vera > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 12:10 PM > > To: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language > > > > Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca > > collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! > > > > Martin > > > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > > wrote: > > > > If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > > > > > > > From barowy@lesley.edu Fri Apr 25 09:59:18 2014 From: barowy@lesley.edu (Barowy, William) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 16:59:18 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Teachers and Facebook Message-ID: <4c37917496c540418cd71d0367650410@BY2PR03MB428.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Hi all, There was a local incident in my area earlier this month that I've briefly described in the following blog entry. I don't have time myself to do it, but it occurred to me that this could be an excellent controversial situation for an activity theoretical analysis, perhaps for a grad student. http://www.lesley.edu/blog/technology-in-classroom/2014/04/should-teachers-be-allowed-to-friend-their-students-on-facebook/ --- William Barowy, Ph. D. Associate Professor, Lesley University 29 Everett Street, Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it." --Pablo Picasso From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Apr 25 10:06:41 2014 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (carolmacdon) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:06:41 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language Message-ID: Martin's list looks yummy. I know that my students would find that enthralling. ?It would however be put together in separate readings. Carol Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message -------- From: Huw Lloyd Date: 24/04/2014 11:53 PM (GMT+01:00) To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language That would be nice.? I think you'd get more than undergrads tuning in too. Huw On 24 April 2014 23:28, Martin John Packer wrote: > Huw, I'm not disagreeing. It's just that I'm not sure what it is in > Whitney's book that you're responding to. I have the impression it's a > generally cognitive approach to language, and that's one reason I would > like to find something better. > > What would an ideal cultural-historical textbook on language and > psychology include? > > - language acquisition (with an emphasis on pragmatics and discourse) > - language and nonverbal communication > - the evolution of language > - language and the brain: not simply localization, but the way lueracy > transforms the brain, etc. > - language and thought: LSV and newer research > - language and the oher psychological functions as a dynamic system > - linguistics from a systemic functional approach (plus Chomsky as a > contrast?) > - (cross-cultural studies of) language and perception (color?) > - metaphor a la Lakoff... > ...??? > > Laure, I would be very interested to see your syllabus, though my French > is lousy! > > Martin > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 24 April 2014 22:57, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >> But the efforts to teach language to non-humans are interesting, no? And > >> they generally employ signs rather than words. I think there's general > >> awareness that language need not be verbal. > >> > >> > > Yes, but what about the history of experience evoked by the tongue or > > finger wagging? > > > > What will you have: language as a carrier and, oh, there's this other > thing > > called culture? > > > > For nature of language, you could study toddlers.? That's enough to > > indicate that "language as signing" is a phoney division. > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > >> Martin > >> > >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Huw Lloyd > wrote: > >> > >>> Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author > is > >>> reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach > language > >>> to non-humans").? I would start by debunking that. > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> Huw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Huw, > >>>> > >>>> If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see > >> the > >>>> contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: > >>>> > >>>> < > >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >>>> > >>>> And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by > no > >>>> means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the > >>>> innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. > A > >>>> text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and > language > >>>> would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, > if > >>>> you know what I mean! > >>>> > >>>> Language and its functions > >>>>?????? The nature of language > >>>>?????? What language users must know > >>>>?????? Language in relation to other cognitive processes > >>>>?????? Theories of the language-thought relationship > >>>> Models of language processing > >>>>?????? The recognition of spoken words > >>>>?????? Visual word recognition > >>>>?????? Sentence processing > >>>>?????? Understanding and remembering discourse > >>>>?????? Language production and conversation > >>>> Language and the brain > >>>>?????? Language acquisition: Biological foundations > >>>>?????? Language acquisition in special circumstances > >>>>?????? Language and the localization of function > >>>> Conclusions > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text > >>>> for a > >>>>> rich, involving and open-ended subject. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to > >>>>> deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints > apply), > >>>> and > >>>>> how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the > >>>> topics...? > >>>>> > >>>>> Is the major issue about accessibility of content?? What about > >> compliance > >>>>> with other concepts and procedures in the course...? > >>>>> > >>>>> How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a > >> structured > >>>>> way)?? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), > or > >>>>> changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language > >> itself > >>>>> and its cultural aspects. > >>>>> > >>>>> Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so > >>>> students > >>>>> can go and look up the references.? 1st (or 2nd) hand? material is a > >> good > >>>>> choice! > >>>>> > >>>>> Hope this helps... > >>>>> Huw > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Laure, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in > my > >>>>>> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I > >> need! > >>>> It > >>>>>> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s > >> Development." > >>>>>> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, > >> so I > >>>>>> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer < > laure.kloetzer@gmail.com > >>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Martin, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in > French... > >>>> and > >>>>>> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you > send > >>>> me > >>>>>> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in > >>>> French, if > >>>>>> you read French, I'll be happy to share). > >>>>>> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text > >> book. > >>>>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > >>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>> LK > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer < > >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>>>> >: > >>>>>> Hi Bella, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language > in > >>>>>> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this > >> text, > >>>>>> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, > and > >>>> more > >>>>>> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> < > >>>> > >> > http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Martin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > >>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com > >>>>>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Martin, if you mean something like the following > >>>>>>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language > >>>>>>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. > >>>>>>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language > >> learning > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>> teaching. > >>>>>>> So if you need something more specific please ask. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < > >>>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology > >>>> and/of > >>>>>>>> Language? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Martin > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > > > From shirinvossoughi@gmail.com Fri Apr 25 11:16:50 2014 From: shirinvossoughi@gmail.com (Shirin Vossoughi) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:16:50 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> <001f01cf6044$9c209f60$d461de20$@edu> <163181F5-2958-43A6-A3EA-59FAD0657F1C@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: This may be of interest http://www.amazon.com/Applying-Linguistics-Classroom-Sociocultural-Approach/dp/0415633168/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398449690&sr=8-1&keywords=Aria+Razfar On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Martin, > > The background to my recommendation of Bazerman's book goes back to my own > undergraduate experience with a basic course in the *behavioural sciences* > taught by *Fred Brown* who studied with John Dewey in Chicago. A key text > used in the course was written by Dewey. > > I left that course with an enduring QUESTION of the reciprocal relation of > the social to the personal. > Reading Bazerman's book recast me back to that earlier undergraduate > course that left me with an ABIDING QUESTION that continues to reverberate > [most recently while reading Bazerman's book.]. > Reading Bazerman's book I was reminded of my personal response to this > particular undergraduate course which I took in the 1970's and > wondered about this theme of developing *abiding questions* as a key > purpose of undergraduate courses > > Your reference to Whitney's text as maybe too cognitive in its *genres* I > read as you wanting to help the students come to QUESTION this cognitive > bias in the psychological literature exploring language.. > > Bazerman's text itself may be too advanced, but the general theme of > *genres* and *social facts* in Bazerman's book develops a central aspect > of the psychology of language which offers a clear contrast with more > cognitive biases. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Martin John Packer < > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co > > wrote: > > > Hi Vera, > > > > Yes, of course there's Bruner's work on narrative etc. > > > > Stern is good, though his book was published in 1979. I wonder whether > > something like the 2011 book of the same title by Traxler might be > better. > > Until we roll our own. > > > > The Bain book is selling for $300 on Amazon! Might you have a pdf of your > > chapter? > > > > Martin > > > > On Apr 25, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Vera John-Steiner > wrote: > > > > > I would sign on to that. I do have an old chapter with Paul Tatter that > > > appeared in a volume edited by Bruce Bain: The Sociogenesis of Language > > and > > > Human Conduct with an introduction by Mike. If you end up with a book > of > > > readings this book may offer some pickings for you, including Courtney > > > Cazden, Dell Hymes and Ivan Illich. I would also like to suggest a > short > > > book by Dan Slobin on Psycholinguistics. > > > The chapter headings you enumerate in a previous e-mail sound a little > > heavy > > > on experimental work and light on narrative and discourse analysis. > > > Vera > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John > Packer > > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 12:10 PM > > > To: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language > > > > > > Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca > > > collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! > > > > > > Martin > > > > > > On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer > > > > wrote: > > > > > > If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Apr 25 11:25:47 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:25:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carol, I suppose collected readings would be a good product. But I think a collectively written textbook would be a Great product! Martin On Apr 25, 2014, at 12:06 PM, carolmacdon wrote: > Martin's list looks yummy. I know that my students would find that enthralling. It would however be put together in separate readings. > Carol > > > Sent from Samsung Mobile > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Huw Lloyd > Date: 24/04/2014 11:53 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language > > That would be nice. I think you'd get more than undergrads tuning in too. > > Huw > > > On 24 April 2014 23:28, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Huw, I'm not disagreeing. It's just that I'm not sure what it is in >> Whitney's book that you're responding to. I have the impression it's a >> generally cognitive approach to language, and that's one reason I would >> like to find something better. >> >> What would an ideal cultural-historical textbook on language and >> psychology include? >> >> - language acquisition (with an emphasis on pragmatics and discourse) >> - language and nonverbal communication >> - the evolution of language >> - language and the brain: not simply localization, but the way lueracy >> transforms the brain, etc. >> - language and thought: LSV and newer research >> - language and the oher psychological functions as a dynamic system >> - linguistics from a systemic functional approach (plus Chomsky as a >> contrast?) >> - (cross-cultural studies of) language and perception (color?) >> - metaphor a la Lakoff... >> ...??? >> >> Laure, I would be very interested to see your syllabus, though my French >> is lousy! >> >> Martin >> >> On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> On 24 April 2014 22:57, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>>> But the efforts to teach language to non-humans are interesting, no? And >>>> they generally employ signs rather than words. I think there's general >>>> awareness that language need not be verbal. >>>> >>>> >>> Yes, but what about the history of experience evoked by the tongue or >>> finger wagging? >>> >>> What will you have: language as a carrier and, oh, there's this other >> thing >>> called culture? >>> >>> For nature of language, you could study toddlers. That's enough to >>> indicate that "language as signing" is a phoney division. >>> >>> Best, >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Its not entirely clear from the contents, but it looks like the author >> is >>>>> reinforcing notions of language as wordiness ("Attempts to teach >> language >>>>> to non-humans"). I would start by debunking that. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Huw >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24 April 2014 22:16, Martin John Packer >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Huw, >>>>>> >>>>>> If you click on the link I included in an earlier message you can see >>>> the >>>>>> contents of this typical undergraduate text. Here it is again: >>>>>> >>>>>> < >>>> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> >>>>>> >>>>>> And here are the sections and chapter titles. Let me say that I am by >> no >>>>>> means a great fan of these themes, but there are some limits to the >>>>>> innovations that one can introduce at the undergraduate level, sadly. >> A >>>>>> text that adopted a sociocultural perspective on psychology and >> language >>>>>> would provide legitimacy to a course that was a bit less traditional, >> if >>>>>> you know what I mean! >>>>>> >>>>>> Language and its functions >>>>>> The nature of language >>>>>> What language users must know >>>>>> Language in relation to other cognitive processes >>>>>> Theories of the language-thought relationship >>>>>> Models of language processing >>>>>> The recognition of spoken words >>>>>> Visual word recognition >>>>>> Sentence processing >>>>>> Understanding and remembering discourse >>>>>> Language production and conversation >>>>>> Language and the brain >>>>>> Language acquisition: Biological foundations >>>>>> Language acquisition in special circumstances >>>>>> Language and the localization of function >>>>>> Conclusions >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:58 AM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am puzzled and curious about what constitutes an undergraduate text >>>>>> for a >>>>>>> rich, involving and open-ended subject. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you starting from the subject first, and then working out how to >>>>>>> deliver it in bite size examinable chunks (if these constraints >> apply), >>>>>> and >>>>>>> how are you (considering) dealing with the open-endedness of the >>>>>> topics...? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the major issue about accessibility of content? What about >>>> compliance >>>>>>> with other concepts and procedures in the course...? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How about taking one interesting text and critiquing it (in a >>>> structured >>>>>>> way)? E.g. how blind-deaf people learn to language (Meshcheryakov), >> or >>>>>>> changes in language due to culture (Luria), or more about language >>>> itself >>>>>>> and its cultural aspects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps the text, itself, would benefit from being quite small so >>>>>> students >>>>>>> can go and look up the references. 1st (or 2nd) hand material is a >>>> good >>>>>>> choice! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope this helps... >>>>>>> Huw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 24 April 2014 15:46, Martin John Packer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Laure, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In general I'm also in favor of dispersed readings. In addition, in >> my >>>>>>>> course in child development I've been writing the textbook that I >>>> need! >>>>>> It >>>>>>>> is (currently) titled "A Cultural Psychology of Children?s >>>> Development." >>>>>>>> But this is a new course that I need to get up and running quickly, >>>> so I >>>>>>>> think I need to start with an existing text. If one exists! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer < >> laure.kloetzer@gmail.com >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Martin, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are teaching a similar course here at CNAM, Paris. But in >> French... >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> no textbook, we suggest and comment dispersed readings. Would you >> send >>>>>> me >>>>>>>> your syllabus ? I would be very happy to compare (our plan is in >>>>>> French, if >>>>>>>> you read French, I'll be happy to share). >>>>>>>> Also interested to see if you get some answers regarding the text >>>> book. >>>>>>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>> LK >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2014-04-24 15:35 GMT+02:00 Martin John Packer < >>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>>>>>> >: >>>>>>>> Hi Bella, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, but what I'm looking for is a text on the role of language >> in >>>>>>>> psychology. I'm teaching a course that when last taught used this >>>> text, >>>>>>>> which was published in 1998. I'd like something more contemporary, >> and >>>>>> more >>>>>>>> aligned with a sociocultural perspective: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> < >>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.amazon.com/The-Psychology-Language-Paul-Whitney/dp/0395757509> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2014, at 11:55 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < >>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Martin, if you mean something like the following >>>>>>>>> Williams, M. & Burden, R. (1997). *Psychology for Language >>>>>>>>> Teachers,*Cambridge Language Library. >>>>>>>>> I am teaching a course: Psychological aspects of new language >>>> learning >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> teaching. >>>>>>>>> So if you need something more specific please ask. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Martin John Packer < >>>>>>>> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Can anyone recommend a good undergraduate textbook on Psychology >>>>>> and/of >>>>>>>>>> Language? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Apr 25 13:47:07 2014 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 20:47:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language In-Reply-To: References: <1D6FA9BE-713B-4FF4-9CDA-EAC8A90DFEBE@uniandes.edu.co> <0C71CB5B-0D16-4310-9ACE-C04CFCE0CB41@uniandes.edu.co> <001f01cf6044$9c209f60$d461de20$@edu> <163181F5-2958-43A6-A3EA-59FAD0657F1C@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <4DC5C9FD-D41F-454E-B526-3B072DB3490A@uniandes.edu.co> Hi Shirin, This looks great - Razfar, Aria; Rumenapp, Joseph C. (2013). Applying Linguistics in the Classroom: A Sociocultural Approach. I've just bought the kindle version. Have you used it in courses? Here are the chapter titles. The book works 'outward' from the brain through levels of language to narrative, identity, and ideology. Martin 1 Language as Social Practice: Sociocultural Foundations of Discourse and Learning 2 Neurolinguistics: Rethinking Language in the Flesh 3 Phonology: Why Language Sounds Different to Second Language Learners 4 Phonics and Whole Language: Linguistic Foundations 5 Syntax: English Learners Building Sentences 6 Morphology: Building Words with English Learners 7 Semantics: The Beginning of Meaning 8 Written Language: Historical Developments in Literacy 9 Language Learning: Basic Principles and Debates 10 Learning and Context: Language and Activity 11 Functions of Language: Using Language around the World 12 Narratives: Living a Narrated Life 13 Language and Identity: Who We Are and How We Speak 14 Language Ideologies On Apr 25, 2014, at 1:16 PM, Shirin Vossoughi wrote: > This may be of interest > > http://www.amazon.com/Applying-Linguistics-Classroom-Sociocultural-Approach/dp/0415633168/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398449690&sr=8-1&keywords=Aria+Razfar > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Martin, >> >> The background to my recommendation of Bazerman's book goes back to my own >> undergraduate experience with a basic course in the *behavioural sciences* >> taught by *Fred Brown* who studied with John Dewey in Chicago. A key text >> used in the course was written by Dewey. >> >> I left that course with an enduring QUESTION of the reciprocal relation of >> the social to the personal. >> Reading Bazerman's book recast me back to that earlier undergraduate >> course that left me with an ABIDING QUESTION that continues to reverberate >> [most recently while reading Bazerman's book.]. >> Reading Bazerman's book I was reminded of my personal response to this >> particular undergraduate course which I took in the 1970's and >> wondered about this theme of developing *abiding questions* as a key >> purpose of undergraduate courses >> >> Your reference to Whitney's text as maybe too cognitive in its *genres* I >> read as you wanting to help the students come to QUESTION this cognitive >> bias in the psychological literature exploring language.. >> >> Bazerman's text itself may be too advanced, but the general theme of >> *genres* and *social facts* in Bazerman's book develops a central aspect >> of the psychology of language which offers a clear contrast with more >> cognitive biases. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Martin John Packer < >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co >>> wrote: >> >>> Hi Vera, >>> >>> Yes, of course there's Bruner's work on narrative etc. >>> >>> Stern is good, though his book was published in 1979. I wonder whether >>> something like the 2011 book of the same title by Traxler might be >> better. >>> Until we roll our own. >>> >>> The Bain book is selling for $300 on Amazon! Might you have a pdf of your >>> chapter? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 12:09 AM, Vera John-Steiner >> wrote: >>> >>>> I would sign on to that. I do have an old chapter with Paul Tatter that >>>> appeared in a volume edited by Bruce Bain: The Sociogenesis of Language >>> and >>>> Human Conduct with an introduction by Mike. If you end up with a book >> of >>>> readings this book may offer some pickings for you, including Courtney >>>> Cazden, Dell Hymes and Ivan Illich. I would also like to suggest a >> short >>>> book by Dan Slobin on Psycholinguistics. >>>> The chapter headings you enumerate in a previous e-mail sound a little >>> heavy >>>> on experimental work and light on narrative and discourse analysis. >>>> Vera >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John >> Packer >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 12:10 PM >>>> To: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Psychology of Language >>>> >>>> Let me add that if Laure's suggestion is that we work on an xmca >>>> collectively-authored text(book), I would be all in favor! >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Laure Kloetzer >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> If not: why wouldn't we edit this textbook that we need ? >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Apr 26 09:00:58 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:00:58 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground Message-ID: I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other "dangerous" objects: http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there are great images and videos that describe the playground. Seems fascinating, no? What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does this fit with the CHAT view of play? -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Sat Apr 26 09:07:40 2014 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:07:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps the attached piece is offbase, but it did occur to me while reading Greg's post....Johnny Clegg is a S. African musician (currently touring the US and highly recommended) who has been incredibly courageous in fighting injustice, with a career in a banned mixed-race band during apartheid and continuing efforts to make the world more equitable. But he was also an anthropologist who wrote about Zulu stick fighting, a martial "game" that provides the basis for the Zulu dance that is part of his stage show. So here, fighting is simultaneously play that serves as the foundation for art, all within a genre grounded in preparation for battle. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2014 12:01 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other "dangerous" objects: http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there are great images and videos that describe the playground. Seems fascinating, no? What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does this fit with the CHAT view of play? -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CleggEthnoDance.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1629703 bytes Desc: CleggEthnoDance.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20140426/250c94d3/attachment-0001.pdf From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Apr 26 09:08:35 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:08:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And from that same web page, I found Penny Wilson's Playwork Primer to be rather interesting: http://www.allianceforchildhood.org/sites/allianceforchildhood.org/files/file/PlayworkPrimer_2010.pdf In particular, Wilson's notion of the "adulteration" of play made me think of Beth Ferholt's work with play in a pre-school(?) classroom where the (very talented and well-intentioned) teacher keeps trying to encourage the kids to follow a particular path but the kids manage to find a different solution. Might we say that the kids come to an "un-adulterated" solution! Here is the link to Beth's video: http://vimeo.com/15011909 -greg On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we > have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other > "dangerous" objects: > > http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ > > The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there > are great images and videos that describe the playground. > > Seems fascinating, no? > > What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How > does this fit with the CHAT view of play? > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Sat Apr 26 11:43:16 2014 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:43:16 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <614A1E89-3633-40BE-99AB-CF9AA2EA0AC0@mail.ubc.ca> Greg, is this related to Gever Tulley's work? His video surfaced in my course this term and it was provocative. Students used their own childhood experiences to argue for and against what he mentioned, with lots of qualification ... best - jen http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids On 2014-04-26, at 9:00 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we > have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other > "dangerous" objects: > > http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ > > The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there > are great images and videos that describe the playground. > > Seems fascinating, no? > > What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does > this fit with the CHAT view of play? > > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sat Apr 26 13:03:00 2014 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:03:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: <614A1E89-3633-40BE-99AB-CF9AA2EA0AC0@mail.ubc.ca> References: <614A1E89-3633-40BE-99AB-CF9AA2EA0AC0@mail.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <8B01AB08-4E8D-4DE2-A049-F0DDEDFEED31@gmail.com> Actually it was a radio interview with Hanna rosin. Here's the link: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/hey-parents-leave-those-kids-alone But same idea I think. Greg Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2014, at 12:43 PM, "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" wrote: > Greg, is this related to Gever Tulley's work? His video surfaced in my course this term and it was provocative. Students used their own childhood experiences to argue for and against what he mentioned, with lots of qualification ... best - jen > > http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids > > > > > On 2014-04-26, at 9:00 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we >> have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other >> "dangerous" objects: >> >> http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ >> >> The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there >> are great images and videos that describe the playground. >> >> Seems fascinating, no? >> >> What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does >> this fit with the CHAT view of play? >> >> -greg >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Apr 26 13:45:52 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 21:45:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 April 2014 17:00, Greg Thompson wrote: > I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we > have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other > "dangerous" objects: > > http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ > > The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there > are great images and videos that describe the playground. > > Seems fascinating, no? > > What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does > this fit with the CHAT view of play? > > Hi Greg, The chat concept of play activity attends to the development of agency in role play which is thought to be a necessary precursor to learning activity (correcting one's activity on the basis of discovering discrepancies) etc. Basically, without developing the motive (confidence in agency) there would be less of a sense of any significant problem (no learning activity) which is predicated on the students sense of being able to do things (development of agency). So, I think the sense of play here is somewhat different to "play activity" in CHAT. The kids are older and it seems much more about exposure to exploring reality principles. Of course, play is still present. It's nice filming and music, and fun to watch. It reminds me of long camping trips. Best, Huw > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sat Apr 26 13:45:52 2014 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2014 21:45:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 April 2014 17:00, Greg Thompson wrote: > I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we > have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other > "dangerous" objects: > > http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ > > The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there > are great images and videos that describe the playground. > > Seems fascinating, no? > > What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does > this fit with the CHAT view of play? > > Hi Greg, The chat concept of play activity attends to the development of agency in role play which is thought to be a necessary precursor to learning activity (correcting one's activity on the basis of discovering discrepancies) etc. Basically, without developing the motive (confidence in agency) there would be less of a sense of any significant problem (no learning activity) which is predicated on the students sense of being able to do things (development of agency). So, I think the sense of play here is somewhat different to "play activity" in CHAT. The kids are older and it seems much more about exposure to exploring reality principles. Of course, play is still present. It's nice filming and music, and fun to watch. It reminds me of long camping trips. Best, Huw > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca Sun Apr 27 11:52:10 2014 From: j.vadeboncoeur@ubc.ca (Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 18:52:10 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Interesting "post-apocalyptic" playground In-Reply-To: <8B01AB08-4E8D-4DE2-A049-F0DDEDFEED31@gmail.com> References: <614A1E89-3633-40BE-99AB-CF9AA2EA0AC0@mail.ubc.ca> <8B01AB08-4E8D-4DE2-A049-F0DDEDFEED31@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3DE820E8-A81E-4A42-959D-785E95B78A43@mail.ubc.ca> Thanks, will listen, best - jen On 2014-04-26, at 1:03 PM, wrote: > Actually it was a radio interview with Hanna rosin. Here's the link: > > http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/hey-parents-leave-those-kids-alone > > But same idea I think. > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 26, 2014, at 12:43 PM, "Vadeboncoeur, Jennifer" wrote: > >> Greg, is this related to Gever Tulley's work? His video surfaced in my course this term and it was provocative. Students used their own childhood experiences to argue for and against what he mentioned, with lots of qualification ... best - jen >> >> http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids >> >> >> >> >> On 2014-04-26, at 9:00 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >>> I thought that this was a fascinating way of taking play beyond what we >>> have imagined - allowing kids to play with fire, sharp sticks, and other >>> "dangerous" objects: >>> >>> http://transom.org/2013/of-kith-and-kin/ >>> >>> The link is about the making of a video about this playground, but there >>> are great images and videos that describe the playground. >>> >>> Seems fascinating, no? >>> >>> What do you think? Does play need to be more structured than this? How does >>> this fit with the CHAT view of play? >>> >>> -greg >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Apr 28 10:13:44 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:13:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Contributions of Laszlo Garai Message-ID: The following URL provides access to the work of Laszlo Garai, a Hungarian psychologist with deep experience of the Vygotskian tradition in Russia who is still active and writing. For your reading pleasure. mike http://www.mek.sk/12700/12752/12752.htm From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 03:25:50 2014 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:25:50 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies Message-ID: Dear colleagues, A new special issue of Outlines - critical social practice - has been released (freely available online, http://ojs.statsbiblioteket.dk/index.php/outlines, see content below). This has been a long work issued from a very dense ISCAR symposium and we are pleased that these papers are now available. We thought some papers may be of interest to some XMCA readers. Sorry if you got the info already. Best Easter wishes, Laura Sepp?nen and Laure Kloetzer Editorial: Dialogues and interaction as "the nursery for change" PDF Laura Kloetzer, Laura Sepp?nen 01-04 Examining Developmental Dialogue: the Emergence of Transformative Agency PDF Heli Heikkila, Laura Sepp?nen 05-30 Developing a Tool for Cross-Functional Collaboration: the Trajectory of an Annual Clock PDF Riikka Ruotsala 31-53 Controversy as a Developmental Tool in Cross Self-Confrontation Analysis PDF Katia Kostulski, Laure Kloetzer 54-73 Activity Clinic and Affects in Workplace Conflicts: Transformation through transferential activity PDF Livie Sheller 74-92 Pre-service Teachers' Appropriation of Conceptual Tools PDF Honorine Nocon, Ellen H. Robinson 93-118 The Interplay of Developmental and Dialogical Epistemologies PDF Ritva Engestr?m 119-138 From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 12:02:51 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:02:51 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Arne Raeithel's Genealogy Map Message-ID: I have been unable to re-re-re-locate Arne's historical graph, could someone please send it to the list? mike From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 12:24:02 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:24:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lookis GREAT! Thanks for sending, Laure. mike On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > A new special issue of Outlines - critical social practice - has been > released (freely available online, > http://ojs.statsbiblioteket.dk/index.php/outlines, see content below). > This > has been a long work issued from a very dense ISCAR symposium and we are > pleased that these papers are now available. We thought some papers may be > of interest to some XMCA readers. Sorry if you got the info already. > Best Easter wishes, > Laura Sepp?nen and Laure Kloetzer > > Editorial: Dialogues and interaction as "the nursery for change" PDF > Laura Kloetzer, Laura Sepp?nen 01-04 > > Examining Developmental Dialogue: the Emergence of Transformative Agency > PDF > Heli Heikkila, Laura Sepp?nen 05-30 > > Developing a Tool for Cross-Functional Collaboration: the Trajectory of an > Annual Clock PDF > Riikka Ruotsala 31-53 > > Controversy as a Developmental Tool in Cross Self-Confrontation Analysis > PDF > Katia Kostulski, Laure Kloetzer 54-73 > > Activity Clinic and Affects in Workplace Conflicts: Transformation through > transferential activity PDF > Livie Sheller 74-92 > > Pre-service Teachers' Appropriation of Conceptual Tools PDF > Honorine Nocon, Ellen H. Robinson 93-118 > > The Interplay of Developmental and Dialogical Epistemologies PDF > Ritva Engestr?m 119-138 > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 12:24:02 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 12:24:02 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lookis GREAT! Thanks for sending, Laure. mike On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > A new special issue of Outlines - critical social practice - has been > released (freely available online, > http://ojs.statsbiblioteket.dk/index.php/outlines, see content below). > This > has been a long work issued from a very dense ISCAR symposium and we are > pleased that these papers are now available. We thought some papers may be > of interest to some XMCA readers. Sorry if you got the info already. > Best Easter wishes, > Laura Sepp?nen and Laure Kloetzer > > Editorial: Dialogues and interaction as "the nursery for change" PDF > Laura Kloetzer, Laura Sepp?nen 01-04 > > Examining Developmental Dialogue: the Emergence of Transformative Agency > PDF > Heli Heikkila, Laura Sepp?nen 05-30 > > Developing a Tool for Cross-Functional Collaboration: the Trajectory of an > Annual Clock PDF > Riikka Ruotsala 31-53 > > Controversy as a Developmental Tool in Cross Self-Confrontation Analysis > PDF > Katia Kostulski, Laure Kloetzer 54-73 > > Activity Clinic and Affects in Workplace Conflicts: Transformation through > transferential activity PDF > Livie Sheller 74-92 > > Pre-service Teachers' Appropriation of Conceptual Tools PDF > Honorine Nocon, Ellen H. Robinson 93-118 > > The Interplay of Developmental and Dialogical Epistemologies PDF > Ritva Engestr?m 119-138 > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 16:10:19 2014 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:10:19 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Laure-- I tried to register but it would not accept my password. Very odd since I just registered. Is there a help desk?? mike On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > A new special issue of Outlines - critical social practice - has been > released (freely available online, > http://ojs.statsbiblioteket.dk/index.php/outlines, see content below). > This > has been a long work issued from a very dense ISCAR symposium and we are > pleased that these papers are now available. We thought some papers may be > of interest to some XMCA readers. Sorry if you got the info already. > Best Easter wishes, > Laura Sepp?nen and Laure Kloetzer > > Editorial: Dialogues and interaction as "the nursery for change" PDF > Laura Kloetzer, Laura Sepp?nen 01-04 > > Examining Developmental Dialogue: the Emergence of Transformative Agency > PDF > Heli Heikkila, Laura Sepp?nen 05-30 > > Developing a Tool for Cross-Functional Collaboration: the Trajectory of an > Annual Clock PDF > Riikka Ruotsala 31-53 > > Controversy as a Developmental Tool in Cross Self-Confrontation Analysis > PDF > Katia Kostulski, Laure Kloetzer 54-73 > > Activity Clinic and Affects in Workplace Conflicts: Transformation through > transferential activity PDF > Livie Sheller 74-92 > > Pre-service Teachers' Appropriation of Conceptual Tools PDF > Honorine Nocon, Ellen H. Robinson 93-118 > > The Interplay of Developmental and Dialogical Epistemologies PDF > Ritva Engestr?m 119-138 > From laure.kloetzer@gmail.com Tue Apr 29 23:54:34 2014 From: laure.kloetzer@gmail.com (Laure Kloetzer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 08:54:34 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, Normally you don't need to register - you register only if you want to submit or edit a paper. You should be able to access the papers just my clicking on the picture and then choosing one paper... Please let me know if that is not working and I'll report the problem. Cheers LK 2014-04-30 1:10 GMT+02:00 mike cole : > Laure-- I tried to register but it would not accept my password. Very odd > since I just registered. > > Is there a help desk?? > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> A new special issue of Outlines - critical social practice - has been >> released (freely available online, >> http://ojs.statsbiblioteket.dk/index.php/outlines, see content below). >> This >> has been a long work issued from a very dense ISCAR symposium and we are >> pleased that these papers are now available. We thought some papers may be >> of interest to some XMCA readers. Sorry if you got the info already. >> Best Easter wishes, >> Laura Sepp?nen and Laure Kloetzer >> >> Editorial: Dialogues and interaction as "the nursery for change" PDF >> Laura Kloetzer, Laura Sepp?nen 01-04 >> >> Examining Developmental Dialogue: the Emergence of Transformative Agency >> PDF >> Heli Heikkila, Laura Sepp?nen 05-30 >> >> Developing a Tool for Cross-Functional Collaboration: the Trajectory of an >> Annual Clock PDF >> Riikka Ruotsala 31-53 >> >> Controversy as a Developmental Tool in Cross Self-Confrontation Analysis >> PDF >> Katia Kostulski, Laure Kloetzer 54-73 >> >> Activity Clinic and Affects in Workplace Conflicts: Transformation through >> transferential activity PDF >> Livie Sheller 74-92 >> >> Pre-service Teachers' Appropriation of Conceptual Tools PDF >> Honorine Nocon, Ellen H. Robinson 93-118 >> >> The Interplay of Developmental and Dialogical Epistemologies PDF >> Ritva Engestr?m 119-138 >> > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 00:22:02 2014 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 07:22:02 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31101DA3CB5@TIS103.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Works for me in the UK! Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+rod.parker-rees=plymouth.ac.uk@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Laure Kloetzer Sent: 30 April 2014 07:55 To: Mike Cole Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Special Issue on Dialogue and Interactions in Developmental Methodologies Hi Mike, Normally you don't need to register - you register only if you want to submit or edit a paper. You should be able to access the papers just my clicking on the picture and then choosing one paper... Please let me know if that is not working and I'll report the problem. Cheers LK 2014-04-30 1:10 GMT+02:00 mike cole : > Laure-- I tried to register but it would not accept my password. Very > odd since I just registered. > > Is there a help desk?? > mike > > > On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Laure Kloetzer wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> A new special issue of Outlines - critical social practice - has been >> released (freely available online, >> http://ojs.statsbiblioteket.dk/index.php/outlines, see content below). >> This >> has been a long work issued from a very dense ISCAR symposium and we >> are pleased that these papers are now available. We thought some >> papers may be of interest to some XMCA readers. Sorry if you got the info already. >> Best Easter wishes, >> Laura Sepp?nen and Laure Kloetzer >> >> Editorial: Dialogues and interaction as "the nursery for change" PDF >> Laura Kloetzer, Laura Sepp?nen 01-04 >> >> Examining Developmental Dialogue: the Emergence of Transformative >> Agency PDF Heli Heikkila, Laura Sepp?nen 05-30 >> >> Developing a Tool for Cross-Functional Collaboration: the Trajectory >> of an Annual Clock PDF Riikka Ruotsala 31-53 >> >> Controversy as a Developmental Tool in Cross Self-Confrontation >> Analysis PDF Katia Kostulski, Laure Kloetzer 54-73 >> >> Activity Clinic and Affects in Workplace Conflicts: Transformation >> through transferential activity PDF Livie Sheller 74-92 >> >> Pre-service Teachers' Appropriation of Conceptual Tools PDF Honorine >> Nocon, Ellen H. Robinson 93-118 >> >> The Interplay of Developmental and Dialogical Epistemologies PDF >> Ritva Engestr?m 119-138 >> > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From s.franklin08@btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 02:55:57 2014 From: s.franklin08@btinternet.com (Shirley Franklin) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 10:55:57 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [LING-ETHNOG] New book: Reflexivity in Language and Intercultural Education References: <02DAD2006736104B82A5942DEF52ED310102CA663166@MAIL1.inst.ioe.ac.uk> Message-ID: <08CDAAF6-C59B-435B-8447-C8E3000CC69D@btinternet.com> For information Shirley Franklin Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: The Linguistic Ethnography Forum [LING-ETHNOG@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Julie Byrd Clark [jbyrdcla@UWO.CA] > Sent: 29 April 2014 18:24 > To: LING-ETHNOG@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > Subject: [LING-ETHNOG] New book: Reflexivity in Language and Intercultural Education > > Dear Colleagues: > > Fred Dervin and I are delighted to announce our exciting new volume with the the series of Routledge Studies in Language and Intercultural Communication. http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415716598/ > > > We hope that it will make a good contribution, and have an impact on researchers and practitioners alike in various fields, particularly ethnography. > > Please feel free to share this information with your colleagues and students, if you think they might be interested. > All best, Julie and Fred > > Reflexivity in Language and Intercultural Education: Rethinking Multilingualism and Interculturality edited by Julie S. Byrd Clark & Fred Dervin (2014) (with contributions from several LEF members) > The Table of Contents: > Introduction Julie S. Byrd Clark and Fred Dervin > > 1. The Process of Becoming Reflexive and Intercultural: Navigating Study Abroad and Reentry Experience Jane Jackson > > 2. "Or, just it?s my fault right?": Language Socialization through Reflexive Language Writing Feedback J?r?mie S?ror > > 3. Reflexivity and Self-Presentation in Multicultural Encounters: Making Sense of Self and Other Alex Frame > > 4. Researching Chinese Students? Intercultural Communication Experiences in Higher Education: Researcher and Participant Reflexivity Prue Holmes > > 5. Critical Reflexive Ethnography and the Multilingual Space of a Canadian University: Challenges and Opportunities Sylvie A. Lamoureux > > 6. Reflexivity in Motion in Language and Literacy Learning David Malinowski and Mark Evan Nelson > > 7. Uses of Digital Text in Reflexive Anthropology: The Example of Educational Workshops for Out-of-school/Educationally Excluded Adolescents Eric Chauvier > > 8. Reflexivity and Critical Language Education at Occupy L.A. Christian W. Chun > > 9. Weaving a Method: Mobility, Multilocality, and the Senses as Foci of Research on Intercultural Language Learning Ulrike Najar > > 10. Everyday Practices, Everyday Pedagogies: A Dialogue on Critical Transformations in a Multilingual Hong Kong School Miguel P?rez-Milans and Carlos Soto > > Conclusion: Reflexivity in Research and Practice: Moving On? Fred Dervin and Julie S. Byrd Clark > > Commentary Claire Kramsch > > > > -- > Julie Byrd Clark, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Director of the DELF/DALF Centre > > Faculty of Education, 1039 > Western University > 1137 Western Road > London, ON N6G 1G7, CANADA > Telephone: 1 519-661-2111, ext. 88656 > E-mail: jbyrdcla@uwo.ca > http://www.edu.uwo.ca/faculty_profiles/cssal/byrd.clark_julie/index.html > > Co-PI Researching International and Contemporary Education (RICE) Research Group > > Docent, Visiting Associate Professor, University of Helsinki, Finland > http://www.edu.uwo.ca/news-events/news/2012/docent2012.html > > Associate Editor for the International Journal Education for Diversities > http://blogs.helsinki.fi/ije4d-journal/editorial-board/ > > Director of the DELF/DALF Centre: http://www.edu.uwo.ca/programs/delfdalf/ > > New book on Reflexivity in Language and Intercultural Education (2014): http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415716598/ > > > The Institute of Education: Number 1 worldwide for Education, 2014 QS World University Rankings From Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu Wed Apr 30 12:43:41 2014 From: Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu (Kevin O'Connor) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:43:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] postdoc position at CU-Boulder In-Reply-To: <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C23728570A6B@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <617649.35892.qm@web110302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CB7E045.7020504@mira.net> <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C22EFF17FF16@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <4CB81D6C.6010304@mira.net> <42ED37FA-16EE-4779-813E-825DEC3027D8@telia.com> <4CB8F55D.90105@mira.net> <4CB94729.7080305@mira.net> <3991066.36081.1287217957415.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com> <4CB96780.1040807@mira.net> <29250490.36120.1287221262170.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com> <352144C8-35AC-40F2-AD23-189503D2FFE7@duq.edu> <4CBA413B.4000903@mira.net> <002c01cb6ec5$c5549ae0$4ffdd0a0$@johnwtowsey.co.za> <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C23728570A6B@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: From nacaveva@hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 13:19:31 2014 From: nacaveva@hotmail.com (Nacaveva Morales) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 20:19:31 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: postdoc position at CU-Boulder In-Reply-To: References: <617649.35892.qm@web110302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4CB7E045.7020504@mira.net>, <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C22EFF17FF16@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, <4CB81D6C.6010304@mira.net> , <42ED37FA-16EE-4779-813E-825DEC3027D8@telia.com>, , <4CB8F55D.90105@mira.net>, , <4CB94729.7080305@mira.net>, , <3991066.36081.1287217957415.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com>, <4CB96780.1040807@mira.net>, <29250490.36120.1287221262170.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com>, <352144C8-35AC-40F2-AD23-189503D2FFE7@duq.edu> <4CBA413B.4000903@mira.net>, , , <002c01cb6ec5$c5549ae0$4ffdd0a0$@johnwtowsey.co.za>, , <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C23728570A6B@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: Dear Kevin, There is no information. The e-mail is empty (or did I do something wrong!!) > From: Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 13:43:41 -0600 > Subject: [Xmca-l] postdoc position at CU-Boulder > > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Wed Apr 30 13:21:35 2014 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 16:21:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: postdoc position at CU-Boulder In-Reply-To: References: <617649.35892.qm@web110302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CB7E045.7020504@mira.net> <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C22EFF17FF16@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <4CB81D6C.6010304@mira.net> <42ED37FA-16EE-4779-813E-825DEC3027D8@telia.com> <4CB8F55D.90105@mira.net> <4CB94729.7080305@mira.net> <3991066.36081.1287217957415.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com> <4CB96780.1040807@mira.net> <29250490.36120.1287221262170.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com> <352144C8-35AC-40F2-AD23-189503D2FFE7@duq.edu> <4CBA413B.4000903@mira.net> <002c01cb6ec5$c5549ae0$4ffdd0a0$@johnwtowsey.co.za> <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C23728570A6B@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: ?No attachment :-(? On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Kevin O'Connor wrote: > > From Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu Wed Apr 30 13:32:35 2014 From: Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu (Kevin O'Connor) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:32:35 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: postdoc position at CU-Boulder In-Reply-To: References: <617649.35892.qm@web110302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4CB7E045.7020504@mira.net>, <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C22EFF17FF16@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, <4CB81D6C.6010304@mira.net> , <42ED37FA-16EE-4779-813E-825DEC3027D8@telia.com>, , <4CB8F55D.90105@mira.net>, , <4CB94729.7080305@mira.net>, , <3991066.36081.1287217957415.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com>, <4CB96780.1040807@mira.net>, <29250490.36120.1287221262170.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com>, <352144C8-35AC-40F2-AD23-189503D2FFE7@duq.edu> <4CBA413B.4000903@mira.net>, , , <002c01cb6ec5$c5549ae0$4ffdd0a0$@johnwtowsey.co.za>, , <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C23728570A6B@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk>, Message-ID: From Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu Wed Apr 30 13:38:47 2014 From: Kevin.Oconnor@colorado.edu (Kevin O'Connor) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 14:38:47 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: postdoc position at CU-Boulder In-Reply-To: References: <617649.35892.qm@web110302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CB7E045.7020504@mira.net> <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C22EFF17FF16@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> <4CB81D6C.6010304@mira.net> <42ED37FA-16EE-4779-813E-825DEC3027D8@telia.com> <4CB8F55D.90105@mira.net> <4CB94729.7080305@mira.net> <3991066.36081.1287217957415.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com> <4CB96780.1040807@mira.net> <29250490.36120.1287221262170.JavaMail.vpopmail@oxapp1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com> <352144C8-35AC-40F2-AD23-189503D2FFE7@duq.edu> <4CBA413B.4000903@mira.net> <002c01cb6ec5$c5549ae0$4ffdd0a0$@johnwtowsey.co.za> <6CD19ED93A7A8F4593955A11621242C23728570A6B@ILS133.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8F8BCECB-4E41-43F1-86BE-ECBBC57B6DEC@colorado.edu> hmm? the content was deleted from my previous messages. Anyone have an idea why this might be happening? Thanks, Kevin *** Kevin O'Connor Assistant Professor, Educational Psychology & Learning Sciences School of Education, UCB 249 University of Colorado Boulder CO 80309 kevin.oconnor@colorado.edu On Apr 30, 2014, at 2:21 PM, Robert Lake wrote: > ?No attachment :-(? > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Kevin O'Connor > wrote: > >> >> From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Wed Apr 30 14:45:35 2014 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:45:35 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: postdoc position at CU-Boulder References: Message-ID: I am attempting to forward this postdoc position on behalf of Kevin O'Connor, who's having some trouble getting his message through. Jenna McWilliams Cultural-Historical Research SIG Communications Chair, AERA Learning Sciences Program, Indiana University ~ jenmcwil@indiana.edu jennamcjenna@gmail.com > > > Hi all, > Please see below a listing for a postdoctoral research position at the University of Colorado, Boulder. This position is available immediately. Please contact me directly with any questions at kevin.oconnor@colorado.edu. > Kevin > > *** > Kevin O'Connor > Assistant Professor, Educational Psychology & Learning Sciences > School of Education, UCB 249 > University of Colorado > Boulder CO 80309 > kevin.oconnor@colorado.edu > > > > > RESEARCH ASSOCIATE (?Post-Doctoral Researcher?) > Learning Ethnographies of New Engineers (LENE) > > https://www.jobsatcu.com/postings/81839 > > The University of Colorado Boulder (CU) seeks applicants for a Research Associate (?post-doctoral researcher? for up to three years, starting Summer 2014. This is a research associate position working with Principal Investigator Kevin O?Connor and co-Principal Investigators Margaret Eisenhart and Daria Kotys-Schwartz at CU and with collaborating partners at Northwestern University. > The selected research associate will work on all phases of research in the Learning Ethnographies of New Engineers (LENE) project funded by the National Science Foundation (see http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=1252372). The research associate will lead data collection under the supervision of Dr. O?Connor and in parallel with a ?postdoctoral researcher? at Northwestern, and will participate with O?Connor and collaborators at CU and Northwestern on data analysis efforts. > > An earned Ph.D. or Ed.D. in Learning Sciences or related field is preferred; exceptional ABDapplicants will also be considered. Preference will be given to candidates who have one or more publications in peer-reviewed journals. We are seeking a scholar who has experience with ethnographic fieldwork, discourse analysis, and/or interaction analysis, and an interest in the organizing of learning across contexts. > Strong ethnographic skills are highly desirable. The research will take place at engineering workplaces in the Boulder/Denver metro area and in the undergraduate engineering curriculum at CU. The research associate will develop expertise at ethnographic research on situated cognition and learning, discourse analysis, and interaction analysis. The research associate will also participate in research group meetings and ongoing professional development opportunities in the target areas of the project, and will have opportunities to participate in CU?s internationally recognized Learning Sciences program. > > For questions and additional information, please contact kevin.oconnor@colorado.edu > > Compensation: This is a full-time, 12-month position with a salary beginning at $50,000/year and full benefits. The position is renewable for up to a total of three years based on performance, with the opportunity for salary increases in the second and third years. The budget also includes conference travel funds for the employee. > > Application Materials: Completed applications must include a cover letter addressing your qualifications and career history, as well as how the Research Associate (?postdoctoral researcher? position with LENE fits with your career goals; a Curriculum Vitae; the names and contact information of three scholars who can serve as references; and two samples (published or unpublished) of your scholarly work, one of which should be a research paper that represents your potential as a scholar and future career trajectory. Application materials must be submitted electronically at https://www.jobsatcu.com. > > Closing Date: The review of applications will begin immediately and will continue until the position is filled. > > > > > > > > >