From bjones@weber.ucsd.edu Wed Oct 2 08:49:32 2013 From: bjones@weber.ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 08:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] This is a test message - please delete Message-ID: <20131002154932.9957610AE1D@weber.ucsd.edu> Sorry for the additional email. Testing what might be a problem with the mailing list. No need to respond. From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:01:21 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:01:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA Message-ID: Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of message, but of course do not see them except later on the accumulated list. What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say something about what you are working on or wondering about. For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course that I visit in Colorado taught by Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple questions like that. And you?? mike From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:01:21 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:01:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA Message-ID: Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of message, but of course do not see them except later on the accumulated list. What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say something about what you are working on or wondering about. For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course that I visit in Colorado taught by Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple questions like that. And you?? mike From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:08:34 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:08:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Pass it on!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An interesting idea for these times. mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carla Seal Wanner Date: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 9:32 AM Subject: Fwd: Pass it on!!! To: Eric Wanner , Erin_Wanner@discovery.com, Noel Wanner < noel.wanner@gmail.com>, Kate Wanner , Kathleen Wilson < kswilson11@gmail.com>, Trip Swanhaus , Rob Margolin < ramargolin@ramapogroup.com>, Harold Moss , Mike Cole , Mike de Seve , David Kleeman < dkleeman@atgonline.org>, David Wilson , Kaki Ettinger , "Karin A. Lawrence" < karin.lawrence@ctcda.com>, Twila Liggett , Laurie Pincushion , Laura Martin , Laurie Meadoff , Jordan Geary < jordan@flickerlab.com>, Tom Chorlton ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kit Laybourne Date: Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 11:38 AM Subject: Fwd: Pass it on!!! To: James Wood , James Balog , Mike Salvaris , Michael Gostigian < olympian@icloud.com>, Paul Michaels , Arthur Seelbinder < gseelbinde@aol.com>, Josh Aronson , Sam Laybourne < samlaybourne@mac.com>, Greg Podunovich , John Arnold , Anne Kendall , Abby Dix < abbydix@gmail.com>, Carla Seal-Wanner , Will Kendall < will.kendall@gmail.com>, Wally Lawrence , Mark Welch , Daniel Wolf , Tom Wold < Twold@woldlaw.com>, Eli Noyes , Janet Coleman < janet.coleman@gmail.com>, Bill Hitzig , Peter Hastings < peterhastings@me.com>, Herran Bekele , Evan Baily < evanbaily@gmail.com>, Brooks Lundy , Donald Lundy < Donald.Lundy@aig.com>, Leland Bond-Upson Kit Laybourne klaybourne@mac.com cel 917-742-7077 rhi 845-516-4423 nyc 212-875-0700 Begin forwarded message: *From:* John Schenck *Date:* October 3, 2013 at 10:27:38 AM EDT *To:* Mike Hanson , Genie Trevor , Wally Lawrence , Dickson Deede < DeedeDickson@gmail.com>, Kit Laybourne , John Pinney < jpinney@pinneyassociates.com>, David Roscoe , "Charles N. Sturtevant" , lowell & frannie johnston , Sam Coale , margaret davidson , ru & sheila rauch , Steve Enroth , seth hoyt , Mello Peter , Jeff Miller , David Riley *Subject:* *Pass it on!!!* Sorry to inflict this on you -- but this is one of these ideas that's probably too sensible to ever happen. Still, it should be part of the conversation. Hope you'll share it with your contacts. Thanks -- J ------------------------------ *Winds Of Change* *Warren Buffet is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise. At least 20 if you can. It has to stop somewhere.* In three days, most people in The United States of America will have this message. This is one idea that really should be passed around *Congressional Reform Act of 2013 1. No Tenure / No Pension. A Congressman/woman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they're out of office. 2. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security. All funds in the Congressional retirement fund move to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system and Congress participates with the American people. It may not be used for any other purpose. 3. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan, just as all Americans do. 4. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%. 5. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people. 6. Congress must equally abide by all laws they impose on the American people. 7. All contracts with past and present Congressmen/women are void effective 12/31/13. The American people did not make this contract with Congressmen/women. Congressmen/women made all these contracts for themselves. Serving in Congress is an honor not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work. If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people then it will only take three days for most people (in the U.S. ) to receive the message. Don't you think it's time? THIS IS HOW YOU FIX CONGRESS! If you agree with the above, pass it on. If not, just delete. *You are one of my 20+ - Please keep it going, andthanks.* -- Penelope Jencks www.penelopejencks.com -- Carla Seal-Wanner Director of Education and Curriculum, FlickerLab Executive Director, Climate Cartoons 78 Crosby Street, #203 New York, NY 10012 212-560-9228 From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:09:37 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 15:09:37 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Which email address did you want us to send to? There are 3 in your email: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca@weber.ucsd.edu xmca-l@ucsd.edu -greg On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:09:37 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 15:09:37 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Which email address did you want us to send to? There are 3 in your email: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca@weber.ucsd.edu xmca-l@ucsd.edu -greg On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:09:37 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 15:09:37 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Which email address did you want us to send to? There are 3 in your email: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu xmca@weber.ucsd.edu xmca-l@ucsd.edu -greg On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:11:23 2013 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:11:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C209369-BC66-4726-96CE-7B8EED71B202@gmail.com> I'm getting ready to defend my dissertation proposal, which uses a CHAT framework to operationalize an approach to genderfluency and transmedia fluency that I'm calling trans*literacies. If all goes according to plan, I'll soon be getting all up in CHAT's grill, clutching some transgender theory in one fist and some empirical research in the other! Jenna McWilliams jennamcjenna@gmail.com jenmcwil@indiana.edu Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2013, at 5:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:11:23 2013 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:11:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C209369-BC66-4726-96CE-7B8EED71B202@gmail.com> I'm getting ready to defend my dissertation proposal, which uses a CHAT framework to operationalize an approach to genderfluency and transmedia fluency that I'm calling trans*literacies. If all goes according to plan, I'll soon be getting all up in CHAT's grill, clutching some transgender theory in one fist and some empirical research in the other! Jenna McWilliams jennamcjenna@gmail.com jenmcwil@indiana.edu Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2013, at 5:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike From jennamcjenna@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:11:23 2013 From: jennamcjenna@gmail.com (Jenna McWilliams) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 17:11:23 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C209369-BC66-4726-96CE-7B8EED71B202@gmail.com> I'm getting ready to defend my dissertation proposal, which uses a CHAT framework to operationalize an approach to genderfluency and transmedia fluency that I'm calling trans*literacies. If all goes according to plan, I'll soon be getting all up in CHAT's grill, clutching some transgender theory in one fist and some empirical research in the other! Jenna McWilliams jennamcjenna@gmail.com jenmcwil@indiana.edu Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2013, at 5:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:20:44 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:20:44 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe that all work, but xmca-l@ucsd.edu is most up to date. I will cc BJ who raised the concern. Looking forward to hearing more, Jenna! What's this I hear about a General Semantics MOOC, Greg? mike On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Mike, > Which email address did you want us to send to? > > There are 3 in your email: > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > -greg > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > > message, but of course do not > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > something about what you > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > Simple > > questions like that. > > > > And you?? > > mike > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From bjones@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Oct 3 14:30:16 2013 From: bjones@weber.ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA Message-ID: <20131003213016.D758210AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> >From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:09:53 2013 > >Which email address did you want us to send to? > >There are 3 in your email: >xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >xmca-l@ucsd.edu While all of those are valid addresses for the list, the only address anyone needs to use is xmca-l@ucsd.edu (and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu will go away someday) From bjones@weber.ucsd.edu Thu Oct 3 14:30:16 2013 From: bjones@weber.ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA Message-ID: <20131003213016.D758210AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> >From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:09:53 2013 > >Which email address did you want us to send to? > >There are 3 in your email: >xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >xmca-l@ucsd.edu While all of those are valid addresses for the list, the only address anyone needs to use is xmca-l@ucsd.edu (and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu will go away someday) From julianocamillo@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:35:54 2013 From: julianocamillo@gmail.com (Juliano) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 18:35:54 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello everyone! I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications of this concept of humanization for Science Education. See you! Juliano Camillo On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From julianocamillo@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:35:54 2013 From: julianocamillo@gmail.com (Juliano) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 18:35:54 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello everyone! I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications of this concept of humanization for Science Education. See you! Juliano Camillo On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From julianocamillo@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:35:54 2013 From: julianocamillo@gmail.com (Juliano) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 18:35:54 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello everyone! I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications of this concept of humanization for Science Education. See you! Juliano Camillo On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:38:29 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 15:38:29 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll send details on the General Semantics MOOC (titled something like: General Semantics: Language and Thought) once it has been set up. It is planned to start in mid-January in case anyone is interested. Lead teachers are Mary Lahman and Steve Stockdale. I'll be doing a little ditty about Benjamin Whorf. And it is, of course, free. And Jenna, I too would love to hear more on how you are using CHAT in your diss. Sounds fascinating! Best, greg On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 3:20 PM, mike cole wrote: > I believe that all work, but xmca-l@ucsd.edu is most up to date. I will cc > BJ who raised the concern. > > Looking forward to hearing more, Jenna! What's this I hear about a General > Semantics MOOC, Greg? > mike > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > Mike, > > Which email address did you want us to send to? > > > > There are 3 in your email: > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > -greg > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > > > message, but of course do not > > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > > something about what you > > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > > Simple > > > questions like that. > > > > > > And you?? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Thu Oct 3 14:48:05 2013 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:48:05 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <524DE615.40807@open.ac.uk> Now that is something I would love to hear more about. Meanwhile I am just struggling to get my new sets of students started off. And occasionally talking to my colleagues about Zones of Proximal Development. Rob On 03/10/2013 22:35, Juliano wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to > conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities > between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications > of this concept of humanization for Science Education. > > See you! > > Juliano Camillo > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). From ablunden@mira.net Thu Oct 3 16:04:27 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 09:04:27 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <524DF7FB.5010603@mira.net> I'd be interested in collaborating in constructing a Wiki section on CHAT terms, Mike. And I would add to your list: Action, Behaviour, Artefact, Mediation, Activity, Situation (apart from SSD), Consciousness, Matter and Concept. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theory?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > > From philchappell@mac.com Thu Oct 3 16:16:18 2013 From: philchappell@mac.com (Phil Chappell) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 09:16:18 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is as close to Twitter that XMCA has come :-) My 140 characters ... I'm working on my book on second language classroom interaction, framed around semiotic mediation, social semiotics (SFL) and Bernsteins's theory of pedagogic discourse. (sorry, 169 characters). Also looking forward to seeing folks in Sydney next year for ISCAR, where I believe we're inventing a future (that will hopefully, no surely, exclude backward-looking right wing politics). Cheers Phil On 04/10/2013, at 7:35 AM, Juliano wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to > conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities > between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications > of this concept of humanization for Science Education. > > See you! > > Juliano Camillo > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 16:17:18 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 16:17:18 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <524DF7FB.5010603@mira.net> References: <524DF7FB.5010603@mira.net> Message-ID: Go for it, Andy Mike On Thursday, October 3, 2013, Andy Blunden wrote: > I'd be interested in collaborating in constructing a Wiki section on CHAT > terms, Mike. And I would add to your list: > Action, Behaviour, Artefact, Mediation, Activity, Situation (apart from > SSD), Consciousness, Matter and Concept. > > Andy > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theory?? >> Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> >> >> > > From philchappell@mac.com Thu Oct 3 16:16:18 2013 From: philchappell@mac.com (Phil Chappell) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 09:16:18 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is as close to Twitter that XMCA has come :-) My 140 characters ... I'm working on my book on second language classroom interaction, framed around semiotic mediation, social semiotics (SFL) and Bernsteins's theory of pedagogic discourse. (sorry, 169 characters). Also looking forward to seeing folks in Sydney next year for ISCAR, where I believe we're inventing a future (that will hopefully, no surely, exclude backward-looking right wing politics). Cheers Phil On 04/10/2013, at 7:35 AM, Juliano wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to > conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities > between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications > of this concept of humanization for Science Education. > > See you! > > Juliano Camillo > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> From philchappell@mac.com Thu Oct 3 16:16:18 2013 From: philchappell@mac.com (Phil Chappell) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 09:16:18 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is as close to Twitter that XMCA has come :-) My 140 characters ... I'm working on my book on second language classroom interaction, framed around semiotic mediation, social semiotics (SFL) and Bernsteins's theory of pedagogic discourse. (sorry, 169 characters). Also looking forward to seeing folks in Sydney next year for ISCAR, where I believe we're inventing a future (that will hopefully, no surely, exclude backward-looking right wing politics). Cheers Phil On 04/10/2013, at 7:35 AM, Juliano wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to > conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities > between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications > of this concept of humanization for Science Education. > > See you! > > Juliano Camillo > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Thu Oct 3 17:20:41 2013 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:20:41 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <524DF7FB.5010603@mira.net> Message-ID: The trouble is always working out where to start. Which term do you discuss first without having explained any of the terms you need to explain the first one?! A wiki with lots of hyperlinks possibly makes this a lot easier. I take it you were being facetious when you called this simple? :) Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Building 902, Room 159 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 On 4 October 2013 09:17, mike cole wrote: > Go for it, Andy > Mike > > On Thursday, October 3, 2013, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > I'd be interested in collaborating in constructing a Wiki section on CHAT > > terms, Mike. And I would add to your list: > > Action, Behaviour, Artefact, Mediation, Activity, Situation (apart from > > SSD), Consciousness, Matter and Concept. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > > ------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > >> message, but of course do not > >> see them except later on the accumulated list. > >> > >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > >> something about what you > >> are working on or wondering about. > >> > >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > >> that I visit in Colorado taught by > >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theory?? > >> Simple > >> questions like that. > >> > >> And you?? > >> mike > >> > >> > >> > > > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Oct 3 17:27:52 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2013 10:27:52 +1000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <524DF7FB.5010603@mira.net> Message-ID: <524E0B88.90302@mira.net> My strength is in the fundamentals. So I would start with the fundamentals (action, artefact, consciousness,...) which don't need to refer to the higher level concepts (like zoped, learning, ...), where others would do better. I am thinking in terms of a collaborative effort, of course. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Helen Grimmett wrote: > The trouble is always working out where to start. Which term do you discuss > first without having explained any of the terms you need to explain the > first one?! A wiki with lots of hyperlinks possibly makes this a lot > easier. I take it you were being facetious when you called this simple? :) > > Helen > > > Dr Helen Grimmett > Lecturer, Student Adviser, > Faculty of Education, > Building 902, Room 159 > Monash University, Berwick campus > Phone: 9904 7171 > > > > > On 4 October 2013 09:17, mike cole wrote: > > >> Go for it, Andy >> Mike >> >> On Thursday, October 3, 2013, Andy Blunden wrote: >> >> >>> I'd be interested in collaborating in constructing a Wiki section on CHAT >>> terms, Mike. And I would add to your list: >>> Action, Behaviour, Artefact, Mediation, Activity, Situation (apart from >>> SSD), Consciousness, Matter and Concept. >>> >>> Andy >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>> ------------ >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >>>> message, but of course do not >>>> see them except later on the accumulated list. >>>> >>>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >>>> something about what you >>>> are working on or wondering about. >>>> >>>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >>>> that I visit in Colorado taught by >>>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >>>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theory?? >>>> Simple >>>> questions like that. >>>> >>>> And you?? >>>> mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > > > From Dana.Walker@unco.edu Thu Oct 3 20:30:43 2013 From: Dana.Walker@unco.edu (Walker, Dana) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 03:30:43 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just completed a book using interactional ethnography (Judith Green, David Bloome) and Tania Zittoun's semiotic prism analysis, to examine learning and development in a community-school linked youth radio program for multilingual high school students, Peter Lang publishers. Dana Walker On 10/3/13 3:01 PM, "mike cole" wrote: >Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >message, but of course do not >see them except later on the accumulated list. > >What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >something about what you >are working on or wondering about. > >For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >that I visit in Colorado taught by >Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >Simple >questions like that. > >And you?? >mike From VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za Thu Oct 3 21:47:12 2013 From: VanDerRiet@ukzn.ac.za (Mary van der Riet) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 04:47:12 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <524DE615.40807@open.ac.uk> References: <524DE615.40807@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: <671715824.3739540.1380862031780.JavaMail.rim@b13.c13.bise7.blackberry> Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device -----Original Message----- From: rjsp2 Sender: Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:48:05 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA Now that is something I would love to hear more about. Meanwhile I am just struggling to get my new sets of students started off. And occasionally talking to my colleagues about Zones of Proximal Development. Rob On 03/10/2013 22:35, Juliano wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to > conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities > between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications > of this concept of humanization for Science Education. > > See you! > > Juliano Camillo > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:49:14 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 21:49:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tantalizing information, Dana. What is the basic idea of Tanya Z's prism analysis and what does the phrase, "community-linked" mean? I find TZ's ideas very stimulating and have engaged in community-university linked programs for some kind. how the prisms and programs related? mike On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Walker, Dana wrote: > I just completed a book using interactional ethnography (Judith Green, > David Bloome) and Tania Zittoun's semiotic prism analysis, to examine > learning and development in a community-school linked youth radio program > for multilingual high school students, Peter Lang publishers. > > Dana Walker > > > > On 10/3/13 3:01 PM, "mike cole" wrote: > > >Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > >message, but of course do not > >see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > >What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > >something about what you > >are working on or wondering about. > > > >For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > >that I visit in Colorado taught by > >Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > >Simple > >questions like that. > > > >And you?? > >mike > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 21:51:21 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 21:51:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <671715824.3739540.1380862031780.JavaMail.rim@b13.c13.bise7.blackberry> References: <524DE615.40807@open.ac.uk> <671715824.3739540.1380862031780.JavaMail.rim@b13.c13.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: I gather that empty message was full of information that there you are at unkzn.ac.za Mary. What's the news from (one of ) San Diego's antipode(s)? mike On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Mary van der Riet wrote: > > Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: rjsp2 > Sender: > Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 22:48:05 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA > > Now that is something I would love to hear more about. > > Meanwhile I am just struggling to get my new sets of students started > off. And occasionally talking to my colleagues about Zones of Proximal > Development. > > Rob > > On 03/10/2013 22:35, Juliano wrote: > > Hello everyone! > > > > I am working on my doctoral research in Brazil. I am trying to > > conceptualize human development in the convergences and complementarities > > between Paulo Freire and A. N. Leont'ev. From that, to think implications > > of this concept of humanization for Science Education. > > > > See you! > > > > Juliano Camillo > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > >> message, but of course do not > >> see them except later on the accumulated list. > >> > >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > >> something about what you > >> are working on or wondering about. > >> > >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > >> that I visit in Colorado taught by > >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > Simple > >> questions like that. > >> > >> And you?? > >> mike > >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). > > > From Dana.Walker@unco.edu Thu Oct 3 23:05:55 2013 From: Dana.Walker@unco.edu (Walker, Dana) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 06:05:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike, Tania Zittoun's prism analysis (as you know) adds the fourth vector of "personal sense" to the person-object-other triangle: [cid:774E8231-EB0B-48CF-AB3A-768A74E7FC76] I was interested in how the young people made personal sense of the cultural elements and relationships afforded in the the program. Mentors from the community radio station and arts organizations introduced non-school-like artifacts to the school curriculum, such as ways of talking, writing, editing, and producing media. The students did unexpected things with the resources made available. For example, they used their own media productions to change attitudes among siblings and other youth in the school and their communities about exposing young children to drug use. In some cases these feature stories and digital narratives became cultural elements that were taken-up by other youth for their own meaning-making processes. Dana From: mike cole > Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com" > Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013 10:49 PM To: Dana Walker > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA Tantalizing information, Dana. What is the basic idea of Tanya Z's prism analysis and what does the phrase, "community-linked" mean? I find TZ's ideas very stimulating and have engaged in community-university linked programs for some kind. how the prisms and programs related? mike On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Walker, Dana > wrote: I just completed a book using interactional ethnography (Judith Green, David Bloome) and Tania Zittoun's semiotic prism analysis, to examine learning and development in a community-school linked youth radio program for multilingual high school students, Peter Lang publishers. Dana Walker On 10/3/13 3:01 PM, "mike cole" > wrote: >Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >message, but of course do not >see them except later on the accumulated list. > >What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >something about what you >are working on or wondering about. > >For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >that I visit in Colorado taught by >Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >Simple >questions like that. > >And you?? >mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 774E8231-EB0B-48CF-AB3A-768A74E7FC76.png Type: image/png Size: 21500 bytes Desc: 774E8231-EB0B-48CF-AB3A-768A74E7FC76.png Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131004/f1894315/attachment.png From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Fri Oct 4 00:51:56 2013 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 08:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <4C209369-BC66-4726-96CE-7B8EED71B202@gmail.com> References: <4C209369-BC66-4726-96CE-7B8EED71B202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1380873116.9839.YahooMailNeo@web172305.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi Bruce - Aside from dealing with the main threads , I've been receiving posts in doublets and triplets . This is the one case for triplet sample ?, Greg Thompson's , Mike's , and others , too , but not all , of course . ? Best Haydi ________________________________ From: Jenna McWilliams To: "lchcmike@gmail.com" ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: Bruce Jones ; "xmca-l@ucsd.edu" ; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, 4 October 2013, 0:41:23 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA I'm getting ready to defend my dissertation proposal, which uses a CHAT framework to operationalize an approach to genderfluency and transmedia fluency that I'm calling trans*literacies. If all goes according to plan, I'll soon be getting all up in CHAT's grill, clutching some transgender theory in one fist and some empirical research in the other! Jenna McWilliams jennamcjenna@gmail.com jenmcwil@indiana.edu Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 3, 2013, at 5:01 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit? reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G.? Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 07:53:52 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:53:52 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? Huw On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Fri Oct 4 07:55:13 2013 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:55:13 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Which Baldwin? On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. > > Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? > > Huw > > > On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > > message, but of course do not > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > something about what you > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > Simple > > questions like that. > > > > And you?? > > mike > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D. *Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* *-*John Dewey. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Oct 4 07:59:59 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 14:59:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E398EAD-BB02-486A-A083-837D19EE163A@uniandes.edu.co> Alec. :) Martin On Oct 4, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Robert Lake wrote: > Which Baldwin? > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > >> Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. >> >> Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? >> >> Huw >> >> >> On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: >> >>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >>> message, but of course do not >>> see them except later on the accumulated list. >>> >>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >>> something about what you >>> are working on or wondering about. >>> >>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >>> that I visit in Colorado taught by >>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >> Simple >>> questions like that. >>> >>> And you?? >>> mike >>> >> > > > > -- > *Robert Lake Ed.D. > *Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its > midwife.* > *-*John Dewey. From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 08:02:21 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:02:21 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James Mark Baldwin, Thought & Things. So far its all introspection and logic, so some might find it hard to follow. Huw On 4 October 2013 15:55, Robert Lake wrote: > Which Baldwin? > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd >wrote: > > > Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. > > > > Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: > > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > > > message, but of course do not > > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > > something about what you > > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > > Simple > > > questions like that. > > > > > > And you?? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > -- > *Robert Lake Ed.D. > *Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its > midwife.* > *-*John Dewey. > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 08:07:22 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:07:22 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <8E398EAD-BB02-486A-A083-837D19EE163A@uniandes.edu.co> References: <8E398EAD-BB02-486A-A083-837D19EE163A@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: On 4 October 2013 15:59, Martin John Packer wrote: > Alec. > > :) > Performative! > > Martin > > On Oct 4, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Robert Lake > wrote: > > > Which Baldwin? > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd >wrote: > > > >> Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. > >> > >> Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? > >> > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: > >> > >>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > >>> message, but of course do not > >>> see them except later on the accumulated list. > >>> > >>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > >>> something about what you > >>> are working on or wondering about. > >>> > >>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > >>> that I visit in Colorado taught by > >>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > >> Simple > >>> questions like that. > >>> > >>> And you?? > >>> mike > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D. > > *Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its > > midwife.* > > *-*John Dewey. > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Oct 4 08:22:46 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 15:22:46 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <8E398EAD-BB02-486A-A083-837D19EE163A@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: I always find those brothers hard to tell apart! James Mark was the one in 30 Rock, right? Martin On Oct 4, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > On 4 October 2013 15:59, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> Alec. >> >> :) >> > > Performative! > > >> >> Martin >> >> On Oct 4, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Robert Lake >> wrote: >> >>> Which Baldwin? >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd >> wrote: >>> >>>> Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. >>>> >>>> Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? >>>> >>>> Huw >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of >>>>> message, but of course do not >>>>> see them except later on the accumulated list. >>>>> >>>>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >>>>> something about what you >>>>> are working on or wondering about. >>>>> >>>>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course >>>>> that I visit in Colorado taught by >>>>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >>>>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >>>> Simple >>>>> questions like that. >>>>> >>>>> And you?? >>>>> mike >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >>> *Associate Professor >>> Social Foundations of Education >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>> Georgia Southern University >>> P. O. Box 8144 >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>> >>> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its >>> midwife.* >>> *-*John Dewey. >> >> >> From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 08:58:34 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:58:34 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <8E398EAD-BB02-486A-A083-837D19EE163A@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: Was he a Paris exile too? http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/james-baldwin/film-james-baldwin-the-price-of-the-ticket/2632/ On 4 October 2013 16:22, Martin John Packer wrote: > I always find those brothers hard to tell apart! James Mark was the one in > 30 Rock, right? > > Martin > > On Oct 4, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > On 4 October 2013 15:59, Martin John Packer > wrote: > > > >> Alec. > >> > >> :) > >> > > > > Performative! > > > > > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Oct 4, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Robert Lake > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Which Baldwin? > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. > >>>> > >>>> Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? > >>>> > >>>> Huw > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple > of > >>>>> message, but of course do not > >>>>> see them except later on the accumulated list. > >>>>> > >>>>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > >>>>> something about what you > >>>>> are working on or wondering about. > >>>>> > >>>>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a > course > >>>>> that I visit in Colorado taught by > >>>>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >>>>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > >>>> Simple > >>>>> questions like that. > >>>>> > >>>>> And you?? > >>>>> mike > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > >>> *Associate Professor > >>> Social Foundations of Education > >>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > >>> Georgia Southern University > >>> P. O. Box 8144 > >>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > >>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > >>> Statesboro, GA 30460 > >>> > >>> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its > >>> midwife.* > >>> *-*John Dewey. > >> > >> > >> > > > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Fri Oct 4 09:15:20 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 16:15:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <8E398EAD-BB02-486A-A083-837D19EE163A@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: He said that ?all men are brothers.? He meant, "all men are Baldwins." Back to the mines. Over and out. Martin On Oct 4, 2013, at 10:58 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Was he a Paris exile too? > > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/james-baldwin/film-james-baldwin-the-price-of-the-ticket/2632/ > > > On 4 October 2013 16:22, Martin John Packer wrote: > >> I always find those brothers hard to tell apart! James Mark was the one in >> 30 Rock, right? >> >> Martin >> >> On Oct 4, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: >> >>> On 4 October 2013 15:59, Martin John Packer >> wrote: >>> >>>> Alec. >>>> >>>> :) >>>> >>> >>> Performative! >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On Oct 4, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Robert Lake >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Which Baldwin? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. >>>>>> >>>>>> Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? >>>>>> >>>>>> Huw >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple >> of >>>>>>> message, but of course do not >>>>>>> see them except later on the accumulated list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >>>>>>> something about what you >>>>>>> are working on or wondering about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a >> course >>>>>>> that I visit in Colorado taught by >>>>>>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >>>>>>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >>>>>> Simple >>>>>>> questions like that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And you?? >>>>>>> mike >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Robert Lake Ed.D. >>>>> *Associate Professor >>>>> Social Foundations of Education >>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading >>>>> Georgia Southern University >>>>> P. O. Box 8144 >>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355 >>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382 >>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460 >>>>> >>>>> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its >>>>> midwife.* >>>>> *-*John Dewey. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> From boblake@georgiasouthern.edu Fri Oct 4 11:45:52 2013 From: boblake@georgiasouthern.edu (Robert Lake) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 14:45:52 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Huw, I will have to look it over. RL On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > James Mark Baldwin, Thought & Things. > > So far its all introspection and logic, so some might find it hard to > follow. > > Huw > > > On 4 October 2013 15:55, Robert Lake wrote: > > > Which Baldwin? > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Huw Lloyd > >wrote: > > > > > Relating dialectical logic to genetic logic. Reading Baldwin. > > > > > > Happy to help with the wiki, how's the history to be mapped? > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > On 3 October 2013 22:01, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple > of > > > > message, but of course do not > > > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > > > something about what you > > > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a > course > > > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > > > Simple > > > > questions like that. > > > > > > > > And you?? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *Robert Lake Ed.D. > > *Associate Professor > > Social Foundations of Education > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > Georgia Southern University > > P. O. Box 8144 > > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > > > *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its > > midwife.* > > *-*John Dewey. > > > -- *Robert Lake Ed.D. *Associate Professor Social Foundations of Education Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern University P. O. Box 8144 Phone: (912) 478-0355 Fax: (912) 478-5382 Statesboro, GA 30460 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its midwife.* *-*John Dewey. From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Fri Oct 4 19:40:03 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:40:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Butterflies of Zagorski Message-ID: Does anyone have this movie? I Have it in Portuguese but wanted to show it to some people here in Japan. Maybe someone could upload a English version to Vimeo? Thanks Wagner From nickrenz@uchicago.edu Sat Oct 5 10:35:01 2013 From: nickrenz@uchicago.edu (Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:35:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for undergraduates? Best, Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Department of Comparative Human Development University of Chicago ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity Cc: Bruce Jones Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of message, but of course do not see them except later on the accumulated list. What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say something about what you are working on or wondering about. For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course that I visit in Colorado taught by Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple questions like that. And you?? mike From nickrenz@uchicago.edu Sat Oct 5 10:35:01 2013 From: nickrenz@uchicago.edu (Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:35:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for undergraduates? Best, Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Department of Comparative Human Development University of Chicago ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity Cc: Bruce Jones Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of message, but of course do not see them except later on the accumulated list. What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say something about what you are working on or wondering about. For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course that I visit in Colorado taught by Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple questions like that. And you?? mike From nickrenz@uchicago.edu Sat Oct 5 10:35:01 2013 From: nickrenz@uchicago.edu (Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:35:01 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for undergraduates? Best, Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Department of Comparative Human Development University of Chicago ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity Cc: Bruce Jones Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of message, but of course do not see them except later on the accumulated list. What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say something about what you are working on or wondering about. For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course that I visit in Colorado taught by Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple questions like that. And you?? mike From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 5 11:10:54 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:10:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated in the article, "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc website in the old newsletter. In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we have an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other things, by a computer game and micro world, and another case of kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, different modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called something like "the anthropology of learning." Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are not too miserable! mike On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > undergraduates? > > Best, > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > Department of Comparative Human Development > University of Chicago > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > Cc: Bruce Jones > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 5 11:10:54 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:10:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated in the article, "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc website in the old newsletter. In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we have an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other things, by a computer game and micro world, and another case of kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, different modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called something like "the anthropology of learning." Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are not too miserable! mike On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > undergraduates? > > Best, > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > Department of Comparative Human Development > University of Chicago > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > Cc: Bruce Jones > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 5 11:10:54 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 11:10:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated in the article, "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc website in the old newsletter. In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we have an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other things, by a computer game and micro world, and another case of kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, different modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called something like "the anthropology of learning." Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are not too miserable! mike On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > undergraduates? > > Best, > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > Department of Comparative Human Development > University of Chicago > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > Cc: Bruce Jones > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > From bruce@brucerob.eu Sat Oct 5 11:55:24 2013 From: bruce@brucerob.eu (Bruce Robinson) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 19:55:24 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mike cole wrote: >Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated ...by the fact th at all my xmca marriages are arriving in triplicate. Bruce Robinson in the article, >"Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc >website in the old newsletter. > >In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on >the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we >have >an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other >things, >by a computer game and micro world, and another case of >kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions >of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the >heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. > >For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by >Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, >different >modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change >historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. > >For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, >*Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. > >David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called >something like "the anthropology of learning." > >Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are >not >too miserable! >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < >nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > >> Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human >> Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and >trying >> to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I >had a >> question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of >> "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they >have >> found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for >> undergraduates? >> >> Best, >> >> Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. >> Department of Comparative Human Development >> University of Chicago >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >[xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM >> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity >> Cc: Bruce Jones >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA >> >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple >of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a >course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From nickrenz@uchicago.edu Sat Oct 5 12:10:20 2013 From: nickrenz@uchicago.edu (Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:10:20 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: That is a wonderful mental image. But maybe in future we should respond to only these two addresses rather than the whole lot of them? Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. Department of Comparative Human Development University of Chicago ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Bruce Robinson [bruce@brucerob.eu] Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2013 1:55 PM To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA mike cole wrote: >Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated ...by the fact th at all my xmca marriages are arriving in triplicate. Bruce Robinson in the article, >"Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc >website in the old newsletter. > >In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on >the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we >have >an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other >things, >by a computer game and micro world, and another case of >kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions >of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the >heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. > >For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by >Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, >different >modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change >historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. > >For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, >*Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. > >David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called >something like "the anthropology of learning." > >Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are >not >too miserable! >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < >nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > >> Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human >> Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and >trying >> to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I >had a >> question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of >> "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they >have >> found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for >> undergraduates? >> >> Best, >> >> Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. >> Department of Comparative Human Development >> University of Chicago >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >[xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM >> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity >> Cc: Bruce Jones >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA >> >> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple >of >> message, but of course do not >> see them except later on the accumulated list. >> >> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >> something about what you >> are working on or wondering about. >> >> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a >course >> that I visit in Colorado taught by >> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >Simple >> questions like that. >> >> And you?? >> mike >> -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Sat Oct 5 12:29:38 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 19:29:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> How many xmca marriages do you have, Bruce? I'm not sure that's mediation: I think the word is polygamy. Maybe polygamediation. Martin On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:55 PM, Bruce Robinson wrote: > > > mike cole wrote: >> Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated > > ...by the fact th at all my xmca marriages are arriving in triplicate. > > Bruce Robinson > > in the article, >> "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc >> website in the old newsletter. >> >> In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on >> the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we >> have >> an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other >> things, >> by a computer game and micro world, and another case of >> kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions >> of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the >> heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. >> >> For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by >> Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, >> different >> modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change >> historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. >> >> For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, >> *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. >> >> David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called >> something like "the anthropology of learning." >> >> Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are >> not >> too miserable! >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < >> nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: >> >>> Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human >>> Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and >> trying >>> to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I >> had a >>> question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of >>> "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they >> have >>> found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for >>> undergraduates? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. >>> Department of Comparative Human Development >>> University of Chicago >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM >>> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity >>> Cc: Bruce Jones >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA >>> >>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple >> of >>> message, but of course do not >>> see them except later on the accumulated list. >>> >>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say >>> something about what you >>> are working on or wondering about. >>> >>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a >> course >>> that I visit in Colorado taught by >>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of >>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? >> Simple >>> questions like that. >>> >>> And you?? >>> mike >>> > > -- > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:09:12 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 13:09:12 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> References: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: How did the GREAT HACKER know that xmca-ites are hooked on threes? Wonder where that came from? Haydi seems to have the same problem, but maybe not everyone? As a reward, try out this quote from Dewey. Next to deadness and dullness, formalism and routine, our education is threatened with no greater evil than sentimentalism. *?John Dewey* On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > How many xmca marriages do you have, Bruce? I'm not sure that's mediation: > I think the word is polygamy. Maybe polygamediation. > > Martin > > On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:55 PM, Bruce Robinson wrote: > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated > > > > ...by the fact th at all my xmca marriages are arriving in triplicate. > > > > Bruce Robinson > > > > in the article, > >> "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc > >> website in the old newsletter. > >> > >> In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on > >> the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we > >> have > >> an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other > >> things, > >> by a computer game and micro world, and another case of > >> kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions > >> of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the > >> heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. > >> > >> For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by > >> Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, > >> different > >> modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change > >> historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. > >> > >> For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, > >> *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. > >> > >> David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called > >> something like "the anthropology of learning." > >> > >> Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are > >> not > >> too miserable! > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < > >> nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > >> > >>> Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > >>> Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and > >> trying > >>> to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I > >> had a > >>> question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > >>> "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they > >> have > >>> found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > >>> undergraduates? > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > >>> Department of Comparative Human Development > >>> University of Chicago > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > >>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > >>> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > >>> Cc: Bruce Jones > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > >>> > >>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple > >> of > >>> message, but of course do not > >>> see them except later on the accumulated list. > >>> > >>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > >>> something about what you > >>> are working on or wondering about. > >>> > >>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a > >> course > >>> that I visit in Colorado taught by > >>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > >> Simple > >>> questions like that. > >>> > >>> And you?? > >>> mike > >>> > > > > -- > > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:35:35 2013 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 21:35:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <1381005335.24810.YahooMailNeo@web172303.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Yes , there's no end to my marriages ? And I just wrote about this to the other Bruce ? Should I endure tolerating so much sentiment ? ________________________________ From: mike cole To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Cc: Bruce Jones Sent: Saturday, 5 October 2013, 23:39:12 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA How did the GREAT HACKER know that xmca-ites are hooked on threes? Wonder where that came from? Haydi seems to have the same problem, but maybe not everyone? As a reward, try out this quote from Dewey. Next to deadness and dullness, formalism and routine, our education is threatened with no greater evil than sentimentalism. *?John Dewey* On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Martin John Packer wrote: > How many xmca marriages do you have, Bruce? I'm not sure that's mediation: > I think the word is polygamy. Maybe polygamediation. > > Martin > > On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:55 PM, Bruce Robinson wrote: > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated > > > > ...by the fact th at all my xmca marriages are arriving in triplicate. > > > > Bruce Robinson > > > > in the article, > >> "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc > >> website in the old newsletter. > >> > >> In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on > >> the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we > >> have > >> an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other > >> things, > >> by a computer game and micro world, and another case of > >> kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to discussions > >> of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from the > >> heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. > >> > >> For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by > >> Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, > >> different > >> modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change > >> historically, and even some intergenerational developmental patterns. > >> > >> For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's book, > >> *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. > >> > >> David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called > >> something like "the anthropology of learning." > >> > >> Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances are > >> not > >> too miserable! > >> mike > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < > >> nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: > >> > >>> Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > >>> Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and > >> trying > >>> to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I > >> had a > >>> question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > >>> "mediation through artifacts" and/or? "practical activity" that they > >> have > >>> found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > >>> undergraduates? > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > >>> Department of Comparative Human Development > >>> University of Chicago > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________________ > >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > >> [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > >>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > >>> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > >>> Cc: Bruce Jones > >>> Subject: [Xmca-l]? Messages on XMCA > >>> > >>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple > >> of > >>> message, but of course do not > >>> see them except later on the accumulated list. > >>> > >>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit? reply and say > >>> something about what you > >>> are working on or wondering about. > >>> > >>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a > >> course > >>> that I visit in Colorado taught by > >>> Kris G.? Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > >>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > >> Simple > >>> questions like that. > >>> > >>> And you?? > >>> mike > >>> > > > > -- > > Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > > From bruce@brucerob.eu Sat Oct 5 13:40:23 2013 From: bruce@brucerob.eu (Bruce Robinson) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:40:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> References: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <6a8cf73a-96cb-4551-98e9-2d3dae249e1a@email.android.com> How funny! I must remember to read what Swype believes me to be typing. Messages, of course... Bruce Martin John Packer wrote: >How many xmca marriages do you have, Bruce? I'm not sure that's >mediation: I think the word is polygamy. Maybe polygamediation. > >Martin > >On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:55 PM, Bruce Robinson wrote: > >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >>> Mediation through artifacts is wonderfully illustrated >> >> ...by the fact th at all my xmca marriages are arriving in >triplicate. >> >> Bruce Robinson >> >> in the article, >>> "Sound of the violin" by Ernst Boesch which can be found on the lchc >>> website in the old newsletter. >>> >>> In the article by Peg Griffin and myself, this one at my web page on >>> the lchc.ucsd.edu site, called "Current activity for the future" we >>> have >>> an example of a kid whose activity is being mediated, among other >>> things, >>> by a computer game and micro world, and another case of >>> kids engaged in a form of work activity. Also relevant to >discussions >>> of "scaffolding versus zopeds", but just the examples cut out from >the >>> heavier theoretical stuff may suffice. >>> >>> For practical activity AND mediation there are some fine articles by >>> Geoff Saxe on money and trade using different counting systems, >>> different >>> modes of representing numbers using artifacts that change >>> historically, and even some intergenerational developmental >patterns. >>> >>> For play, my favorite example is Chapter 26 from Vivian Paley's >book, >>> *Boys and Girls*, all of which I find wonderful. >>> >>> David Lancy has a text full of examples from other cultures called >>> something like "the anthropology of learning." >>> >>> Always fun to teach human development classes if the circumstances >are >>> not >>> too miserable! >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < >>> nickrenz@uchicago.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human >>>> Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and >>> trying >>>> to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, >I >>> had a >>>> question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of >>>> "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that >they >>> have >>>> found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for >>>> undergraduates? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. >>>> Department of Comparative Human Development >>>> University of Chicago >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] >>>> on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM >>>> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity >>>> Cc: Bruce Jones >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA >>>> >>>> Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a >couple >>> of >>>> message, but of course do not >>>> see them except later on the accumulated list. >>>> >>>> What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and >say >>>> something about what you >>>> are working on or wondering about. >>>> >>>> For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a >>> course >>>> that I visit in Colorado taught by >>>> Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation >of >>>> development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's >theor?? >>> Simple >>>> questions like that. >>>> >>>> And you?? >>>> mike >>>> >> >> -- >> Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From ablunden@mira.net Sat Oct 5 15:09:14 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 09:09:14 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> Message-ID: <52508E0A.4090103@mira.net> Never mind the Great Hacker in the Sky. We all great triplicates because the messages are posted to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu, xmca-l@ucsd.edu and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu. Unlike with marrige, there is no mystery. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > How did the GREAT HACKER know that xmca-ites are hooked on threes? > Wonder where that came from? Haydi seems to have the same problem, but > maybe not everyone? > > As a reward, try out this quote from Dewey. > > Next to deadness and dullness, formalism and routine, > > our education is threatened with no greater evil than sentimentalism. > > *?John Dewey* > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 5 15:20:39 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 15:20:39 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: <52508E0A.4090103@mira.net> References: <41D0BAAF-9961-4933-8FFC-64173B86F967@uniandes.edu.co> <52508E0A.4090103@mira.net> Message-ID: So the problem is using reply all to some specific message that had all three addresses as a test? Seems like we should narrow down to xmca-l if that is all that is involved. Silas or BJ should be able to do that by simply disconnecting the other two options..... dead hands of the past. But if Bruce gets three of these messages, the problem may be more complex. mike On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Never mind the Great Hacker in the Sky. We all great triplicates because > the messages are posted to xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu, xmca-l@ucsd.edu and > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu. Unlike with marrige, there is no mystery. > Andy > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > mike cole wrote: > >> How did the GREAT HACKER know that xmca-ites are hooked on threes? >> Wonder where that came from? Haydi seems to have the same problem, but >> maybe not everyone? >> >> As a reward, try out this quote from Dewey. >> >> Next to deadness and dullness, formalism and routine, >> >> our education is threatened with no greater evil than sentimentalism. >> >> *?John Dewey* >> >> >> > > From bjones@weber.ucsd.edu Sat Oct 5 15:31:26 2013 From: bjones@weber.ucsd.edu (Bruce Jones) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 15:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages in threes Message-ID: <20131005223126.D978A10AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> >From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:10:36 2013 > >Recently in one message I talked about the following problem: > >Out of 11 new messages I'vejust received, 3 identical messages >belong to Mike, 3 similar ones to El izabeth Hadley Nikrenz, >and the last three ones to three persons, one to each. This >problem occurred just at the beginning of the appearance of >the listserve disorders a while ago. Last year, as I was preparing to retire, I moved the xmca mailing list from its original home on weber.ucsd.edu to the campus mail server ucsd.edu When I did, I set the list up with the address xmca-l@ucsd.edu Following standard procedure at UCSD, that is the official name for the xmca mailing list. Then I set up an alias so that mail sent to xmca@ucsd.edu (no -l) would also go to the list, just in case people were confused by the switch. Then, given many people would still try sending mail to xmca@weber.ucsd.edu, I configured weber so that mail sent to xmca@weber.ucsd.edu would automatically get forwarded to xmca-l@ucsd.edu Someone who shall remain nameless (let's call him the "Great Hacker") responded to my query of a few days ago and copied his message to all three addresses: xmca-l@ucsd.edu, xmca@ucsd.edu, and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu People who responded to his message using the "Respond to All" button or key, continued the tripling, and it began to cascade through the list. This will play out as the thread whithers. In the future, people should *ONLY* send mail to one address, preferrably to xmca-l@ucsd.edu From laires11@gmail.com Sun Oct 6 02:14:36 2013 From: laires11@gmail.com (Luisa Aires) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:14:36 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?Mediation through artifacts? opened me the way to interpret adult learning and mediated action with television, almost twenty years ago. Right now I am trying to analyze learning with digital media - locally situated literacies within local cultures. I am trying to "push" a program like Cole?s Fifth Dimension, Vasquez?s ?La clase m?gica?, in rural territories in the north of Portugal, but it?s hard ;-) Best, Lu?sa Aires, Ph.D. Department of Education and Distance Learning Universidade Aberta (Portugal) On 5 October 2013 18:35, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz wrote: > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had a > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > undergraduates? > > Best, > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > Department of Comparative Human Development > University of Chicago > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > Cc: Bruce Jones > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > message, but of course do not > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > something about what you > are working on or wondering about. > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > that I visit in Colorado taught by > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? Simple > questions like that. > > And you?? > mike > > -- From bruce@brucerob.eu Sun Oct 6 02:44:20 2013 From: bruce@brucerob.eu (Bruce Robinson) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 10:44:20 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages in threes In-Reply-To: <20131005223126.D978A10AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> References: <20131005223126.D978A10AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the explanation, Bruce. There's always one who complicates the best efforts of IT workers :-). (I used to be one.) The other Bruce bjones@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: >>From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:10:36 2013 >> >>Recently in one message I talked about the following problem: >> >>Out of 11 new messages I'vejust received, 3 identical messages >>belong to Mike, 3 similar ones to El izabeth Hadley Nikrenz, >>and the last three ones to three persons, one to each. This >>problem occurred just at the beginning of the appearance of >>the listserve disorders a while ago. > >Last year, as I was preparing to retire, I moved the xmca >mailing list from its original home on weber.ucsd.edu to the >campus mail server ucsd.edu > >When I did, I set the list up with the address xmca-l@ucsd.edu >Following standard procedure at UCSD, that is the official name >for the xmca mailing list. > >Then I set up an alias so that mail sent to xmca@ucsd.edu >(no -l) would also go to the list, just in case people were >confused by the switch. > >Then, given many people would still try sending mail to >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu, I configured weber so that mail sent >to xmca@weber.ucsd.edu would automatically get forwarded to >xmca-l@ucsd.edu > >Someone who shall remain nameless (let's call him the "Great >Hacker") responded to my query of a few days ago and copied >his message to all three addresses: xmca-l@ucsd.edu, xmca@ucsd.edu, >and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >People who responded to his message using the "Respond to All" >button or key, continued the tripling, and it began to cascade >through the list. > >This will play out as the thread whithers. > >In the future, people should *ONLY* send mail to one address, >preferrably to xmca-l@ucsd.edu -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 6 08:30:39 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 09:30:39 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Luisa, Could you say more about the "but it's hard" part of your comment? Wondering what kinds of challenges you are up against in developing a 5D/clase magica-like program in the north of Portugal. -greg p.s. apologies for my lack of diacritics! On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Luisa Aires wrote: > ?Mediation through artifacts? opened me the way to interpret adult learning > and mediated action with television, almost twenty years ago. Right now I > am trying to analyze learning with digital media - locally situated > literacies within local cultures. I am trying to "push" a program like > Cole?s Fifth Dimension, Vasquez?s ?La clase m?gica?, in rural territories > in the north of Portugal, but it?s hard ;-) > Best, > > Lu?sa Aires, Ph.D. > Department of Education and Distance Learning > Universidade Aberta (Portugal) > > On 5 October 2013 18:35, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz >wrote: > > > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and trying > > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I had > a > > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they have > > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > > undergraduates? > > > > Best, > > > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > > Department of Comparative Human Development > > University of Chicago > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > > Cc: Bruce Jones > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > > message, but of course do not > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > something about what you > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > Simple > > questions like that. > > > > And you?? > > mike > > > > > > > -- > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From laires11@gmail.com Sun Oct 6 08:57:11 2013 From: laires11@gmail.com (Luisa Aires) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:57:11 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Greg There are several constraints and I would like to point out: 1- Lack of funding. 2- The difficulty to bring together students, universities, companies, local authorities around a common goal: to participate in social inclusion processes with digital media. 3- A kind of a (political) demonization of education to digital participation, after a strong investment (in the country) in the access to digital artifacts. Best, Lu?sa On 6 October 2013 16:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > Luisa, > Could you say more about the "but it's hard" part of your comment? > Wondering what kinds of challenges you are up against in developing a > 5D/clase magica-like program in the north of Portugal. > -greg > p.s. apologies for my lack of diacritics! > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Luisa Aires wrote: > > > ?Mediation through artifacts? opened me the way to interpret adult > learning > > and mediated action with television, almost twenty years ago. Right now I > > am trying to analyze learning with digital media - locally situated > > literacies within local cultures. I am trying to "push" a program like > > Cole?s Fifth Dimension, Vasquez?s ?La clase m?gica?, in rural territories > > in the north of Portugal, but it?s hard ;-) > > Best, > > > > Lu?sa Aires, Ph.D. > > Department of Education and Distance Learning > > Universidade Aberta (Portugal) > > > > On 5 October 2013 18:35, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < > nickrenz@uchicago.edu > > >wrote: > > > > > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > > > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and > trying > > > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I > had > > a > > > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > > > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they > have > > > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > > > undergraduates? > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > > > Department of Comparative Human Development > > > University of Chicago > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > ] > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > > > Cc: Bruce Jones > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple of > > > message, but of course do not > > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > > something about what you > > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a course > > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > > Simple > > > questions like that. > > > > > > And you?? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- ---- Universidade Aberta, Porto R.Amial, n? 752 4200-055 Porto laires@uab.pt From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Oct 6 09:33:24 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 09:33:24 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Luisa and anyone contemplating some version of the out-of-school research effort such as the 5thD or LCM. In each case, these efforts rest on actual involvement of a university faculty member who is permitted to offer a theory/practice course that keeps a steady stream of students involving themselves in community-based, participatory, engagement. When I see the word "rural" in Luisa's note my first thought is -- how will the students get there and be involved? Without those reciprocal relations of exchange (a term I learned from Olga that seems appropriate to such projects), costs of such an undertaking are too great. Also, there is a quite successful 5thD innovation started many years ago at San Diego State U and now run by Deborah Poole, that is NOT focused on new digital technologies at all. Some use of such technologies is helpful and maybe necessary for purposes of inter and intra institutional communication, but not for creating development enhancing settings where undergrads and local youth are jointly involved. mike PS- Deborah has an article about her site in MCA : Mind, Culture, and Activity , vol. 18, no. 3, pp. 216-236, 2011 On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Luisa Aires wrote: > Dear Greg > There are several constraints and I would like to point out: > 1- Lack of funding. > 2- The difficulty to bring together students, universities, companies, > local authorities around a common goal: to participate in social inclusion > processes with digital media. > 3- A kind of a (political) demonization of education to digital > participation, after a strong investment (in the country) in the access to > digital artifacts. > > Best, > Lu?sa > > > On 6 October 2013 16:30, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > Luisa, > > Could you say more about the "but it's hard" part of your comment? > > Wondering what kinds of challenges you are up against in developing a > > 5D/clase magica-like program in the north of Portugal. > > -greg > > p.s. apologies for my lack of diacritics! > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Luisa Aires wrote: > > > > > ?Mediation through artifacts? opened me the way to interpret adult > > learning > > > and mediated action with television, almost twenty years ago. Right > now I > > > am trying to analyze learning with digital media - locally situated > > > literacies within local cultures. I am trying to "push" a program like > > > Cole?s Fifth Dimension, Vasquez?s ?La clase m?gica?, in rural > territories > > > in the north of Portugal, but it?s hard ;-) > > > Best, > > > > > > Lu?sa Aires, Ph.D. > > > Department of Education and Distance Learning > > > Universidade Aberta (Portugal) > > > > > > On 5 October 2013 18:35, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < > > nickrenz@uchicago.edu > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > > > > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and > > trying > > > > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, I > > had > > > a > > > > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > > > > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that they > > have > > > > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > > > > undergraduates? > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > > > > Department of Comparative Human Development > > > > University of Chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > ] > > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > > > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > > > > Cc: Bruce Jones > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > > > > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a couple > of > > > > message, but of course do not > > > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and say > > > > something about what you > > > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a > course > > > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation of > > > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's theor?? > > > Simple > > > > questions like that. > > > > > > > > And you?? > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > -- > > > > > ---- > Universidade Aberta, Porto > R.Amial, n? 752 > 4200-055 Porto > laires@uab.pt > From laires11@gmail.com Sun Oct 6 12:15:23 2013 From: laires11@gmail.com (Luisa Aires) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:15:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages on XMCA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mike You are absolutely right when you say ?When I see the word "rural" in Luisa's note my first thought is -- how will the students get there and be involved? Without those reciprocal relations of exchange (a term I learned from Olga that seems appropriate to such projects), costs of such an undertaking are too great?. As UAb (Universidade Aberta) is a distance teaching university, our students are living in rural and urban territories. However, they are working people and they do not have much time to a project like this one. In the exploratory research we have been doing, we had the participation of UAb Local learning centers network coordinators and local municipal agents. And this is a very interesting way we are going to explore because reciprocal relations of exchange may occur. In what concerns students? participation, I am optimistic, it is a question of time and motivation that may be changed if the project becomes more and more grounded. Thank you for the reference. I am going to read Deborah?s article. Best, Lu?sa On 6 October 2013 17:33, mike cole wrote: > Luisa and anyone contemplating some version of the out-of-school research > effort such as > the 5thD or LCM. In each case, these efforts rest on actual involvement of > a university faculty member who is permitted to offer a theory/practice > course that keeps a steady stream of > students involving themselves in community-based, participatory, > engagement. > > When I see the word "rural" in Luisa's note my first thought is -- how will > the students get there and be involved? Without those reciprocal relations > of exchange (a term I learned from Olga that seems appropriate to such > projects), costs of such an undertaking are too great. > > Also, there is a quite successful 5thD innovation started many years ago at > San Diego State U > and now run by Deborah Poole, that is NOT focused on new digital > technologies at all. Some > use of such technologies is helpful and maybe necessary for purposes of > inter and intra institutional communication, but not for creating > development enhancing settings where > undergrads and local youth are jointly involved. > > mike > > PS- Deborah has an article about her site in MCA > : Mind, Culture, and > Activity > , vol. 18, no. 3, pp. 216-236, 2011 > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Luisa Aires wrote: > > > Dear Greg > > There are several constraints and I would like to point out: > > 1- Lack of funding. > > 2- The difficulty to bring together students, universities, companies, > > local authorities around a common goal: to participate in social > inclusion > > processes with digital media. > > 3- A kind of a (political) demonization of education to digital > > participation, after a strong investment (in the country) in the access > to > > digital artifacts. > > > > Best, > > Lu?sa > > > > > > On 6 October 2013 16:30, Greg Thompson > wrote: > > > > > Luisa, > > > Could you say more about the "but it's hard" part of your comment? > > > Wondering what kinds of challenges you are up against in developing a > > > 5D/clase magica-like program in the north of Portugal. > > > -greg > > > p.s. apologies for my lack of diacritics! > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:14 AM, Luisa Aires > wrote: > > > > > > > ?Mediation through artifacts? opened me the way to interpret adult > > > learning > > > > and mediated action with television, almost twenty years ago. Right > > now I > > > > am trying to analyze learning with digital media - locally situated > > > > literacies within local cultures. I am trying to "push" a program > like > > > > Cole?s Fifth Dimension, Vasquez?s ?La clase m?gica?, in rural > > territories > > > > in the north of Portugal, but it?s hard ;-) > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Lu?sa Aires, Ph.D. > > > > Department of Education and Distance Learning > > > > Universidade Aberta (Portugal) > > > > > > > > On 5 October 2013 18:35, Elizabeth Hadley Nickrenz < > > > nickrenz@uchicago.edu > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > Right now I am busiest with the start of my Introduction to Human > > > > > Development course, looking back on rough spots from last year and > > > trying > > > > > to figure out how to fine-tune and improve them. Which reminds me, > I > > > had > > > > a > > > > > question I wanted to ask you all. Does anyone have any examples of > > > > > "mediation through artifacts" and/or "practical activity" that > they > > > have > > > > > found particularly helpful in illustrating these concepts for > > > > > undergraduates? > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > Elizabeth Fein, Ph.D. > > > > > Department of Comparative Human Development > > > > > University of Chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [ > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > ] > > > > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 4:01 PM > > > > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity > > > > > Cc: Bruce Jones > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages on XMCA > > > > > > > > > > Bruce is asking about absence of email on xmca. I have sent a > couple > > of > > > > > message, but of course do not > > > > > see them except later on the accumulated list. > > > > > > > > > > What's new? There sure are a lot of you out there. Hit reply and > say > > > > > something about what you > > > > > are working on or wondering about. > > > > > > > > > > For example, I have been fussing over vocabulary confusions in a > > course > > > > > that I visit in Colorado taught by > > > > > Kris G. Learning, development, practice, zoped, social situation > of > > > > > development, context...... how are they related in Vygotky's > theor?? > > > > Simple > > > > > questions like that. > > > > > > > > > > And you?? > > > > > mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > Universidade Aberta, Porto > > R.Amial, n? 752 > > 4200-055 Porto > > laires@uab.pt > > > -- ---- Universidade Aberta, Porto R.Amial, n? 752 4200-055 Porto laires@uab.pt From lchcmike@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 15:55:13 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 15:55:13 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Advertisement - Dean, College of Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Future Deans take note! mike On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > > > ** ** > Email not displaying correctly? View it in your browser > **** > > [image: College of Education] **** > *DEAN, COLLEGE OF EDUCATION***** > *The University of New Mexico***** > > The University of New Mexico invites nominations and applications for the > position of Dean of the College of Education. The University is committed > to becoming a leading force for improvement in preK-20 education for our > state and nation, and seeks a Dean with the vision to design, and the > skills to achieve, this transformational change. The desired start date is > July 2014.**** > > Founded in 1889, the University of New Mexico offers nationally-ranked > academic programs and exceptional opportunities for research. UNM is the > only university in the state designated by the Carnegie Foundation as a > Very High Research University, and it is also designated as a Hispanic > Serving Institution by the U.S. Department of Education. Nearly 36,000 > students are enrolled on six campuses, including the architecturally unique > main campus in Albuquerque.**** > > Albuquerque, New Mexico, is an ethnically-diverse city with a rich culture > and a flourishing arts community. The beautiful mountain and high desert > location provides a mild, four season climate and unparalleled > opportunities for year-round outdoor recreation. Albuquerque is the largest > city in New Mexico, with nearly 900,000 residents, and is located > approximately fifty miles south of Santa Fe.**** > > The College of Education is organized in five departments, offering a full > range of undergraduate and graduate degree programs. Each department is > composed of several program units that work together so students and > faculty make connections across fields of study. The College has strong > collaborative relationships throughout the campus and the community.**** > > The College occupies eight buildings on the main campus, with two > state-of-the-art facilities added in the past three years, and enrolls more > than 2,000 students at the main and branch campuses. Half of the students > are enrolled in graduate programs. The College employs 100 tenure-track > faculty members and is supported by an annual aggregate budget of > approximately $23 million. **** > > The Dean of the College works in collaboration with the College faculty, > UNM administration, and the New Mexico community--including educators, > business leaders, legislators, and benefactors--to set the strategic > priorities for the College. The position requires experience with the > complex issues affecting education in our nation today and a record of > achievement in improving the quality of education for teachers and > administrators. The Dean reports directly to the Provost and has a central > role in UNM academic administration.**** > > *Minimum Qualifications:***** > 1. Earned doctorate in education or in a field closely related to > education**** > 2. Earned rank of associate or full professor, with tenure, at an > accredited college or university**** > > 3. A record of at least three years senior supervisory experience > including personnel and budget management**** > > *Preferred Qualifications:***** > 1. A record of productive community partnerships and collaborative > leadership**** > 2. Demonstrated understanding of educational needs and priorities > specific to the state of New Mexico**** > 3. Demonstrated commitment to equity and inclusion for diverse > populations**** > 4. Demonstrated success in external fund-raising and donor > cultivation**** > 5. Distinguished academic credentials consistent with appointment > as a full professor in one of the College of Education departments**** > 6. Evidence of contributions to education policy and best > practices, including experience in assessing and improving student learning > outcomes**** > > 7. A record of involvement in graduate education**** > > The University of New Mexico actively seeks and encourages nominations of > and applications from individuals who are members of under-represented > groups. For information regarding the confidentiality of inquiries and > applications, call or send email to the address listed below. **** > > A complete application consists of:**** > 1. A letter of interest addressing the minimum and preferred > qualifications posted for the position**** > 2. A separate statement articulating the applicant?s vision for the > role of the College of Education in improving the quality of preK-20 > educational outcomes**** > 3. A current curriculum vitae**** > > 4. The names, addresses and contact information of four > professional references**** > > Applicants will be notified before references are contacted.**** > > Applications should be submitted online at http://unmjobs.unm.edu referencing > posting # 0822396. For best consideration, applications should be > submitted by November 15, 2013; however the position will remain open until > filled. **** > > Nominations should be submitted by email to Jennifer Love, Search > Coordinator atjenlov22@unm.edu. The University of New Mexico is an Equal > Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer, Educator.**** > > For additional information about UNM, see http://www.unm.edu. **** > [image: @UNMCOE on Twitter][image: > UNM College of Education on Facebook][image: > UNMCOE on Vimeo] **** > Copyright ? 2013 College of Education Design & Production Studio > All rights reserved.**** > ** ** > > > From joyce.duckles@warner.rochester.edu Mon Oct 7 16:00:23 2013 From: joyce.duckles@warner.rochester.edu (Duckles, Joyce) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 23:00:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Advertisement - Dean, College of Education In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: mike cole Date: 10/07/2013 6:57 PM (GMT-05:00) To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Advertisement - Dean, College of Education Future Deans take note! mike On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > > > ** ** > Email not displaying correctly? View it in your browser > **** > > [image: College of Education] **** > *DEAN, COLLEGE OF EDUCATION***** > *The University of New Mexico***** > > The University of New Mexico invites nominations and applications for the > position of Dean of the College of Education. The University is committed > to becoming a leading force for improvement in preK-20 education for our > state and nation, and seeks a Dean with the vision to design, and the > skills to achieve, this transformational change. The desired start date is > July 2014.**** > > Founded in 1889, the University of New Mexico offers nationally-ranked > academic programs and exceptional opportunities for research. UNM is the > only university in the state designated by the Carnegie Foundation as a > Very High Research University, and it is also designated as a Hispanic > Serving Institution by the U.S. Department of Education. Nearly 36,000 > students are enrolled on six campuses, including the architecturally unique > main campus in Albuquerque.**** > > Albuquerque, New Mexico, is an ethnically-diverse city with a rich culture > and a flourishing arts community. The beautiful mountain and high desert > location provides a mild, four season climate and unparalleled > opportunities for year-round outdoor recreation. Albuquerque is the largest > city in New Mexico, with nearly 900,000 residents, and is located > approximately fifty miles south of Santa Fe.**** > > The College of Education is organized in five departments, offering a full > range of undergraduate and graduate degree programs. Each department is > composed of several program units that work together so students and > faculty make connections across fields of study. The College has strong > collaborative relationships throughout the campus and the community.**** > > The College occupies eight buildings on the main campus, with two > state-of-the-art facilities added in the past three years, and enrolls more > than 2,000 students at the main and branch campuses. Half of the students > are enrolled in graduate programs. The College employs 100 tenure-track > faculty members and is supported by an annual aggregate budget of > approximately $23 million. **** > > The Dean of the College works in collaboration with the College faculty, > UNM administration, and the New Mexico community--including educators, > business leaders, legislators, and benefactors--to set the strategic > priorities for the College. The position requires experience with the > complex issues affecting education in our nation today and a record of > achievement in improving the quality of education for teachers and > administrators. The Dean reports directly to the Provost and has a central > role in UNM academic administration.**** > > *Minimum Qualifications:***** > 1. Earned doctorate in education or in a field closely related to > education**** > 2. Earned rank of associate or full professor, with tenure, at an > accredited college or university**** > > 3. A record of at least three years senior supervisory experience > including personnel and budget management**** > > *Preferred Qualifications:***** > 1. A record of productive community partnerships and collaborative > leadership**** > 2. Demonstrated understanding of educational needs and priorities > specific to the state of New Mexico**** > 3. Demonstrated commitment to equity and inclusion for diverse > populations**** > 4. Demonstrated success in external fund-raising and donor > cultivation**** > 5. Distinguished academic credentials consistent with appointment > as a full professor in one of the College of Education departments**** > 6. Evidence of contributions to education policy and best > practices, including experience in assessing and improving student learning > outcomes**** > > 7. A record of involvement in graduate education**** > > The University of New Mexico actively seeks and encourages nominations of > and applications from individuals who are members of under-represented > groups. For information regarding the confidentiality of inquiries and > applications, call or send email to the address listed below. **** > > A complete application consists of:**** > 1. A letter of interest addressing the minimum and preferred > qualifications posted for the position**** > 2. A separate statement articulating the applicant?s vision for the > role of the College of Education in improving the quality of preK-20 > educational outcomes**** > 3. A current curriculum vitae**** > > 4. The names, addresses and contact information of four > professional references**** > > Applicants will be notified before references are contacted.**** > > Applications should be submitted online at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://unmjobs.unm.edu/&k=p4Ly7qpEBiYPBVenR9G2iQ%3D%3D%0A&r=M8TphXx5%2BV%2FCnb%2FUOTBVdWa1ORLbGxyr%2B2SxoolZlC2SuEzwefNL2dRIRPwKitI0%0A&m=jXQIWr2mjIB6f4qqKG52Qc00ax0Ohheiq0ejuT9Qd1U%3D%0A&s=c096b5a7cfe1868f11d9e4ad0756c01e344658291e17b6eba51dd08641f683ec referencing > posting # 0822396. For best consideration, applications should be > submitted by November 15, 2013; however the position will remain open until > filled. **** > > Nominations should be submitted by email to Jennifer Love, Search > Coordinator atjenlov22@unm.edu. The University of New Mexico is an Equal > Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer, Educator.**** > > For additional information about UNM, see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www.unm.edu/&k=p4Ly7qpEBiYPBVenR9G2iQ%3D%3D%0A&r=M8TphXx5%2BV%2FCnb%2FUOTBVdWa1ORLbGxyr%2B2SxoolZlC2SuEzwefNL2dRIRPwKitI0%0A&m=jXQIWr2mjIB6f4qqKG52Qc00ax0Ohheiq0ejuT9Qd1U%3D%0A&s=dd131ed4cfcee25ec693abc032f747e1064b13d8d89787b71b8ee34d9b90bd4a. **** > [image: @UNMCOE on Twitter][image: > UNM College of Education on Facebook][image: > UNMCOE on Vimeo] **** > Copyright ? 2013 College of Education Design & Production Studio > All rights reserved.**** > ** ** > > > From joyce.duckles@warner.rochester.edu Mon Oct 7 16:00:23 2013 From: joyce.duckles@warner.rochester.edu (Duckles, Joyce) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 23:00:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Advertisement - Dean, College of Education In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: mike cole Date: 10/07/2013 6:57 PM (GMT-05:00) To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Advertisement - Dean, College of Education Future Deans take note! mike On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > > > ** ** > Email not displaying correctly? View it in your browser > **** > > [image: College of Education] **** > *DEAN, COLLEGE OF EDUCATION***** > *The University of New Mexico***** > > The University of New Mexico invites nominations and applications for the > position of Dean of the College of Education. The University is committed > to becoming a leading force for improvement in preK-20 education for our > state and nation, and seeks a Dean with the vision to design, and the > skills to achieve, this transformational change. The desired start date is > July 2014.**** > > Founded in 1889, the University of New Mexico offers nationally-ranked > academic programs and exceptional opportunities for research. UNM is the > only university in the state designated by the Carnegie Foundation as a > Very High Research University, and it is also designated as a Hispanic > Serving Institution by the U.S. Department of Education. Nearly 36,000 > students are enrolled on six campuses, including the architecturally unique > main campus in Albuquerque.**** > > Albuquerque, New Mexico, is an ethnically-diverse city with a rich culture > and a flourishing arts community. The beautiful mountain and high desert > location provides a mild, four season climate and unparalleled > opportunities for year-round outdoor recreation. Albuquerque is the largest > city in New Mexico, with nearly 900,000 residents, and is located > approximately fifty miles south of Santa Fe.**** > > The College of Education is organized in five departments, offering a full > range of undergraduate and graduate degree programs. Each department is > composed of several program units that work together so students and > faculty make connections across fields of study. The College has strong > collaborative relationships throughout the campus and the community.**** > > The College occupies eight buildings on the main campus, with two > state-of-the-art facilities added in the past three years, and enrolls more > than 2,000 students at the main and branch campuses. Half of the students > are enrolled in graduate programs. The College employs 100 tenure-track > faculty members and is supported by an annual aggregate budget of > approximately $23 million. **** > > The Dean of the College works in collaboration with the College faculty, > UNM administration, and the New Mexico community--including educators, > business leaders, legislators, and benefactors--to set the strategic > priorities for the College. The position requires experience with the > complex issues affecting education in our nation today and a record of > achievement in improving the quality of education for teachers and > administrators. The Dean reports directly to the Provost and has a central > role in UNM academic administration.**** > > *Minimum Qualifications:***** > 1. Earned doctorate in education or in a field closely related to > education**** > 2. Earned rank of associate or full professor, with tenure, at an > accredited college or university**** > > 3. A record of at least three years senior supervisory experience > including personnel and budget management**** > > *Preferred Qualifications:***** > 1. A record of productive community partnerships and collaborative > leadership**** > 2. Demonstrated understanding of educational needs and priorities > specific to the state of New Mexico**** > 3. Demonstrated commitment to equity and inclusion for diverse > populations**** > 4. Demonstrated success in external fund-raising and donor > cultivation**** > 5. Distinguished academic credentials consistent with appointment > as a full professor in one of the College of Education departments**** > 6. Evidence of contributions to education policy and best > practices, including experience in assessing and improving student learning > outcomes**** > > 7. A record of involvement in graduate education**** > > The University of New Mexico actively seeks and encourages nominations of > and applications from individuals who are members of under-represented > groups. For information regarding the confidentiality of inquiries and > applications, call or send email to the address listed below. **** > > A complete application consists of:**** > 1. A letter of interest addressing the minimum and preferred > qualifications posted for the position**** > 2. A separate statement articulating the applicant?s vision for the > role of the College of Education in improving the quality of preK-20 > educational outcomes**** > 3. A current curriculum vitae**** > > 4. The names, addresses and contact information of four > professional references**** > > Applicants will be notified before references are contacted.**** > > Applications should be submitted online at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://unmjobs.unm.edu/&k=p4Ly7qpEBiYPBVenR9G2iQ%3D%3D%0A&r=M8TphXx5%2BV%2FCnb%2FUOTBVdWa1ORLbGxyr%2B2SxoolZlC2SuEzwefNL2dRIRPwKitI0%0A&m=jXQIWr2mjIB6f4qqKG52Qc00ax0Ohheiq0ejuT9Qd1U%3D%0A&s=c096b5a7cfe1868f11d9e4ad0756c01e344658291e17b6eba51dd08641f683ec referencing > posting # 0822396. For best consideration, applications should be > submitted by November 15, 2013; however the position will remain open until > filled. **** > > Nominations should be submitted by email to Jennifer Love, Search > Coordinator atjenlov22@unm.edu. The University of New Mexico is an Equal > Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer, Educator.**** > > For additional information about UNM, see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www.unm.edu/&k=p4Ly7qpEBiYPBVenR9G2iQ%3D%3D%0A&r=M8TphXx5%2BV%2FCnb%2FUOTBVdWa1ORLbGxyr%2B2SxoolZlC2SuEzwefNL2dRIRPwKitI0%0A&m=jXQIWr2mjIB6f4qqKG52Qc00ax0Ohheiq0ejuT9Qd1U%3D%0A&s=dd131ed4cfcee25ec693abc032f747e1064b13d8d89787b71b8ee34d9b90bd4a. **** > [image: @UNMCOE on Twitter][image: > UNM College of Education on Facebook][image: > UNMCOE on Vimeo] **** > Copyright ? 2013 College of Education Design & Production Studio > All rights reserved.**** > ** ** > > > From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Mon Oct 7 19:30:46 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 11:30:46 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone have this movie? I Have it in Portuguese but wanted to show it to some people here in Japan. Maybe someone could upload a English version to Vimeo? Thanks Wagner From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 00:16:39 2013 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 00:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages in threes In-Reply-To: <20131005223126.D978A10AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> References: <20131005223126.D978A10AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <1381216599.97773.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- So that explains that mystery. Then again, I am just old enough to remember when looking for overdetermination in messages was a good thing.? My twitter: Currently looking for CHAT management ideas in a classical management world, and occasionally dabbling in mediation of social issues in cultural artifacts. DW ________________________________ From: Bruce Jones To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 3:31 PM Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages in threes >From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com? Sat Oct? 5 13:10:36 2013 > >Recently in one message I talked about the following problem: > >Out of 11 new messages I'vejust received, 3 identical messages >belong to Mike, 3 similar ones to El izabeth Hadley Nikrenz, >and the last three ones to three persons, one to each. This >problem occurred just at the beginning of the appearance of >the listserve disorders a while ago. Last year, as I was preparing to retire, I moved the xmca mailing list from its original home on weber.ucsd.edu to the campus mail server ucsd.edu When I did, I set the list up with the address xmca-l@ucsd.edu Following standard procedure at UCSD, that is the official name for the xmca mailing list. Then I set up an alias so that mail sent to xmca@ucsd.edu (no -l) would also go to the list, just in case people were confused by the switch. Then, given many people would still try sending mail to xmca@weber.ucsd.edu, I configured weber so that mail sent to xmca@weber.ucsd.edu would automatically get forwarded to xmca-l@ucsd.edu Someone who shall remain nameless (let's? call him the "Great Hacker") responded to my query of a few days ago and copied his message to all three addresses: xmca-l@ucsd.edu, xmca@ucsd.edu, and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu People who responded to his message using the "Respond to All" button or key, continued the tripling, and it began to cascade through the list. This will play out as the thread whithers. In the future, people should *ONLY* send mail to one address, preferrably to xmca-l@ucsd.edu From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Oct 8 13:11:45 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:11:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Postdoctoral Fellowship Position Announcement: Carolina Consortium on Human Development In-Reply-To: <27ABBF3F34D97C4EAB1A2DAED94DC18C47CC683E@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> References: <27ABBF3F34D97C4EAB1A2DAED94DC18C47CC683E@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Center for Developmental Science* Date: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 Subject: Postdoctoral Fellowship Position Announcement: Carolina Consortium on Human Development To: "CDS_Faculty@listserv.unc.edu" , " CDS_Postdoc@listserv.unc.edu" , " CDS_Predoc@listserv.unc.edu" , " CDS_Affil_Fac@listserv.unc.edu" , " CCHD_NonFac@listserv.unc.edu" Dear Colleagues: Attached is a flyer for the Carolina Consortium on Human Development Interdisciplinary postdoctoral training program that is housed at the Center for Developmental Science. As you may know, this training program is one of the longest running behavioral scientist training programs in the United States, having been funded by NICHD since 1988. In March, 2004 the Director of NICHD conferred on the Consortium a special mentor award for our excellence in research training. We are committed to maintaining the quality of our program and to training a diverse group of scholars from multiple disciplines. To this end, we will appreciate your input in identifying highly qualified candidates from a wide range of disciplines and your assistance in distributing this announcement widely to your colleagues who may have students interested in the open positions for the 2014-2015 academic year. The Consortium and Center faculty have primary appointments in over 20 departments or schools at six neighboring universities and colleges (Duke University, Meredith College, North Carolina Central University, North Carolina State University, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and University of North Carolina at Greensboro). Please have interested students get in touch with Jennifer Coffman, Associate Director for Research and Training (coffman@unc.edu), as she can answer questions and help with the application process. Sincerely, Andrea Hussong Director Center for Developmental Science www.cds.unc.edu ------------------------------ *CENTER FOR DEVELOPMENTAL SCIENCE* ------------------------------ E-mail: cds@unc.edu *UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL*Campus Box 8115 100 East Franklin Street, Suite 200 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-8115 Tel: 919.962.0333 Fax: 919.962.4250 ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CCHD Flyer 2014.final.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 238355 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131008/12aca507/attachment.pdf From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Oct 8 13:15:46 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:15:46 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?windows-1252?q?Fwd=3A_Does_=93Poverty=94_Cause_Low_Achievement?= =?windows-1252?q?=3F?= In-Reply-To: <354809211.58461.1381260242315.JavaMail.www-data@mw-press-ws-01.meltwater.com> References: <354809211.58461.1381260242315.JavaMail.www-data@mw-press-ws-01.meltwater.com> Message-ID: The poverty.development conversation. Agai/still.... And obviously relevant to long term XMCA concerns. Mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *EPI Newsflash* Date: Tuesday, October 8, 2013 Subject: Does ?Poverty? Cause Low Achievement? To: mcole@ucsd.edu From *Working Economics *, the EPI Blog Does ?Poverty? Cause Low Achievement? by Richard Rothstein Washington, DC | *Oct 8, 2013* On her ?Bridging Differences? blog, educator Deborah Meierbegan a discussion with Mike Petrilli of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute *, *on whether urging disadvantaged women to defer childbearing until they had sufficient income (whether from work or marriage) to adequately support their offspring would result in better outcomes for those children. This, in turn, led to an extended discussion (not on the blog, but widely circulated among some education policy experts and commentators by e-mail) about whether alleviating poverty would raise student achievement, whether alleviating poverty through tax reform or income redistribution might be effective for that purpose, whether poor children in the United States have worse outcomes than poor children in other countries, what the best way might be to calculate poverty levels across countries, and whether school reform in the absence of alleviating poverty can be significantly effective. The shortcoming of this discussion is that because Americans are averse to acknowledging the concept of social class and hold to a widely shared myth of unrestricted mobility (that is less and less reflective of reality), we tend to use the term ?poverty? as a proxy for lower social class status. This shortcut causes great mischief in educational policy. Lower class children are not only characterized by having families with low current money income; they also have a collection of interacting characteristics, each of which affects the ability to learn. Years ago, the Heritage Foundation published a report called *No Excuses, *by Samuel Casey Carter. Among others, one school it found enrolled a majority of children who were eligible for subsidized lunches yet who still had high achievement. According to the report, this (along with other, equally flawed examples) proved that poverty is no bar to high achievement. The school in question was in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and it turned out that the students mostly had parents who were graduate students at Harvard or MIT, whose stipends were low enough that their children were eligible for the lunch program. Of course, how much money a child?s parents earned last year (the qualifier for the lunch program) does not itself impede learning. But poverty is a good proxy, sometimes, for lower class status because it is so highly associated with other characteristics of that status. Lower class families have lower parental literacy levels, poorer health, more racial isolation, less stable housing, more exposure to crime and other stresses, less access to quality early childhood experiences, less access to good after school programs (and less ability to afford these even if they did have access), earlier childbearing and more frequent unwed childbearing, less security that comes from stable employment, more exposure to environmental toxins (e.g., lead) that diminish cognitive ability, etc. Each of these predicts lower achievement for children, but none of these (including low income) itself causes low achievement, and lower social class families don?t necessarily have all of these characteristics, but they are likely to have many of them. Sociologists used to define social class solely by assigning a reputational status to a father?s occupation. That no longer is as useful, but sometimes it might lead to less mischief than ?poverty.? Click here to read the full blog post. ### ABOUT EPI The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) is an independent, nonprofit think tank that researches the impact of economic trends and policies on working people in the United States. Economic Policy Institute Media Relations Department 1333 H Street, NW Suite 300, East Tower Washington, D.C. 20005 Contact Dan Crawford, Dont? Donald or Liz Rose news@epi.org 202-775-8810 Resources Describing EPI EPI Newsroom Connect Twitter Facebook Blog *Disclaimer: *If you do not wish to receive further e-mails from Liz Rose using Meltwater Press or from all future e-mails from Meltwater Press, please click the following link: [Remove Me]. Requests will take a maximum of 2 business days to process. If you would like to contact Meltwater Press, we can be reached at: Meltwater Press, 50 Fremont Street, Suite 200, San Francisco, CA 94105 From cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu Wed Oct 9 10:05:55 2013 From: cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu (CAITLIN WUBBENA) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 13:05:55 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher ed. Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be greatly appreciated! -Caitlin From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 10:30:30 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:30:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi-- On the home page of lchc.ucsd there is a way to google the sight. There is a TON of material there on play and development. The most recent on relation between play and symbolic development. There are some unanswered notes about that around, to which perhaps you can add a bit. mike On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > ed. > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > greatly appreciated! > > -Caitlin > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 10:30:30 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:30:30 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi-- On the home page of lchc.ucsd there is a way to google the sight. There is a TON of material there on play and development. The most recent on relation between play and symbolic development. There are some unanswered notes about that around, to which perhaps you can add a bit. mike On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > ed. > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > greatly appreciated! > > -Caitlin > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 13:12:21 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 13:12:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: New issue of Behavioral and Brain Sciences is available on Cambridge Journals Online In-Reply-To: <5589980.1381279168131.JavaMail.cjo@cjo-west-1.internal> References: <5589980.1381279168131.JavaMail.cjo@cjo-west-1.internal> Message-ID: This looks to be an unusually interesting issue of BBS for discussion of human/ environment co-constitution over time. mike On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 5:39 PM, wrote: > > > This email is sent from Cambridge Journals Online per your request. The > following issue is now available online: > > [image: Cambridge Journal Online] > [image: Behavioral and Brain Sciences] ISSN: 0140-525X, EISSN: > 1469-1825 Behavioral and Brain Sciences > http://journals.cambridge.org/BBS Volume 36/ Issue > 05 , > October 2013, pp 465 - 587 Also see FirstView article(s) > - articles available online ahead of being assigned to an issue. Published > Online on 08th October 2013 > [image: TOC in PDF format] PDF version of this Table of Contents > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *Target Article* Climato-economic habitats support patterns of human > needs, stresses, and freedoms Evert > Van de Vliert > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 465 - 480 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X12002828 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > *Open Peer Commentary* Interpersonal exchange and freedom for resource > acquisition John > Adamopoulos > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 480 - 481 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000010 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Cold climates demand more intertemporal self-control than warm climates George > Ainslie > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 481 - 482 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000022 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > How is freedom distributed across the earth? J?ri > Allik, Anu Realo > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 482 - 483 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000034 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Press freedom, oil exports, and risk for natural disasters: A > challenge for climato-economic theory? Joana > Arantes, Randolph C. Grace, Simon Kemp > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 483 - 483 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000046 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Individual identity and freedom of choice in the context of > environmental and economic conditions Roy > F. Baumeister, Jina Park, Sarah E. Ainsworth > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 484 - 484 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000058 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Play, animals, resources: The need for a rich (and challenging) > comparative environment Gordon > M. Burghardt > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 484 - 485 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X1300006X (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Cultural adaptation to environmental change versus stability Lei > Chang, Bin-Bin Chen, Hui Jing Lu > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 485 - 486 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000071 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Frontier migration fosters ethos of independence: Deconstructing the > climato-economic theory of human culture Stephanie > de Oliveira Chen, Shinobu Kitayama > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 486 - 487 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000083 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Is there a role for ?climatotherapy? in the sustainable development of > mental health? Martin > Desseilles, Catherine Duclos, Val?rie Flohimont, Fran?ois Desseilles > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 487 - 488 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000095 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Improving climato-economic theorizing at the individual level Ronald > Fischer > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 488 - 489 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000101 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Ecological priming: Convergent evidence for the link between ecology > and psychological processes Michele > J. Gelfand, Janetta Lun > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 489 - 490 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000113 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > What about politics and culture? C. > Dominik G?ss > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 490 - 491 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000125 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Unsurprising, in a good way Steven > Hrotic > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 491 - 492 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000137 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > What is freedom?and does wealth cause it? Ravi > Iyer, Matt Motyl, Jesse Graham > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 492 - 493 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000149 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Extending climato-economic theory: When, how, and why it explains > differences in nations' creativity Maciej > Karwowski, Izabela Lebuda > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 493 - 494 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000150 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Methodological suggestions for climato-economic theory Kwok > Leung, Grand H.-L. Cheng > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 494 - 495 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000162 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > The need for psychological needs: A role for social capital John > L. Locke, Catherine M. Flanagan > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 495 - 496 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000174 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Toward an integrated, causal, and psychological model of > climato-economics Steve > Loughnan, Boyka Bratanova, Peter Kuppens > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 496 - 497 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000186 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Cultural adaptations to the differential threats posed by hot versus > cold climates Damian > R. Murray > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 497 - 498 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000198 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Contextual freedom: Absoluteness versus relativity of freedom Farzaneh > Pahlavan, Ali Amirrezvani > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 498 - 499 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000204 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Shared adaptiveness is not group adaptation C?dric > Paternotte > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 499 - 500 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000216 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Fundamental freedoms and the psychology of threat, bargaining, and > inequality Adam > Sparks, Sandeep Mishra, Pat Barclay > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 500 - 501 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000228 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Personality traits, national character stereotypes, and > climate?economic conditions Antonio > Terracciano, Wayne Chan > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 501 - 502 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X1300023X (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Subtle variation in ambient room temperature influences the expression > of social cognition Jacob > M. Vigil, Tyler J. Swartz, Lauren N. Rowell > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 502 - 503 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000241 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > *Author'S Response* White, gray, and black domains of cultural > adaptations to climato-economic conditions Evert > Van de Vliert > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 503 - 521 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000277 (About doi) > Published Online on 29th August 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > *Target Article* Navigating in a three-dimensional world Kathryn > J. Jeffery, Aleksandar Jovalekic, Madeleine Verriotis, Robin Hayman > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 523 - 543 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X12002476 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > *Open Peer Commentary* Semantic sides of three-dimensional space > representation Arnaud > Badets > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 543 - 543 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000307 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Human path navigation in a three-dimensional world Michael > Barnett-Cowan, Heinrich H. B?lthoff > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 544 - 545 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000319 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Learning landmarks and routes in multi-floored buildings Alain > Berthoz, Guillaume Thibault > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 545 - 545 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000320 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Anisotropy and polarization of space: Evidence from na?ve optics and > phenomenological psychophysics Ivana > Bianchi, Marco Bertamini > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 545 - 546 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000332 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Navigating in a volumetric world: Metric encoding in the vertical axis > of space Theresa > Burt de Perera, Robert Holbrook, Victoria Davis, Alex Kacelnik, Tim > Guilford > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 546 - 547 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000344 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Navigating through a volumetric world does not imply needing a full > three-dimensional representation Claus-Christian > Carbon, Vera M. Hesslinger > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 547 - 548 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000356 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Think local, act global: How do fragmented representations of space > allow seamless navigation? Paul > A. Dudchenko, Emma R. Wood, Roderick M. Grieves > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 548 - 549 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000368 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Perceptual experience as a bridge between the retina and a bicoded > cognitive map Frank > H. Durgin, Zhi Li > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 549 - 549 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X1300037X (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Learning to navigate in a three-dimensional world: From bees to > primates Adrian > G. Dyer, Marcello G. P. Rosa > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 550 - 550 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000381 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Spatial language as a window on representations of three-dimensional > space Kevin J. > Holmes, Phillip Wolff > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 550 - 551 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000393 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Multi-floor buildings and human wayfinding cognition Christoph > H?lscher, Simon B?chner, Gerhard Strube > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 551 - 552 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X1300040X (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Applying the bicoded spatial model to nonhuman primates in an arboreal > multilayer environment Allison > M. Howard, Dorothy M. Fragaszy > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 552 - 553 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000411 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > The complex interplay between three-dimensional egocentric and > allocentric spatial representation David > M. Kaplan > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 553 - 554 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000423 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > The planar mosaic fails to account for spatially directed action Roberta > L. Klatzky, Nicholas A. Giudice > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 554 - 555 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000435 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Monkeys in space: Primate neural data suggest volumetric > representations Sidney > R. Lehky, Anne B. Sereno, Margaret E. Sereno > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 555 - 556 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000447 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Development of human spatial cognition in a three-dimensional world Kate > A. Longstaffe, Bruce M. Hood, Iain D. Gilchrist > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 556 - 556 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000459 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Has a fully three-dimensional space map never evolved in any species? > A comparative imperative for studies of spatial cognition Cynthia > F. Moss > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 557 - 557 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000460 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Making a stronger case for comparative research to investigate the > behavioral and neurological bases of three-dimensional navigation Daniele > Nardi, Verner P. Bingman > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 557 - 558 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000472 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Which animal model for understanding human navigation in a > three-dimensional world? Guy > A. Orban > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 558 - 559 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000484 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > The study of blindness and technology can reveal the mechanisms of > three-dimensional navigation Achille > Pasqualotto, Michael J. Proulx > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 559 - 560 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000496 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Augmented topological maps for three-dimensional navigation Herbert > Peremans, Dieter Vanderelst > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 560 - 561 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000502 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Navigation bicoded as functions of x-y and time? James > G. Phillips, Rowan P. Ogeil > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 561 - 562 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000514 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Vertical and veridical ? 2.5-dimensional visual and vestibular > navigation David > M. W. Powers > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 562 - 563 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000526 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Foreshortening affects both uphill and downhill slope perception at > far distances Helen > E. Ross > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 563 - 564 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000538 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > The problem of conflicting reference frames when investigating > three-dimensional space in surface-dwelling animals Francesco > Savelli, James J. Knierim > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 564 - 565 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X1300054X (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Just the tip of the iceberg: The bicoded map is but one instantiation > of scalable spatial representation structures Holger > Schultheis, Thomas Barkowsky > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 565 - 566 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000551 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > What is optimized in an optimal path? Fraser > T. Sparks, Kally C. O'Reilly, John L. Kubie > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 566 - 566 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000563 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Grid maps for spaceflight, anyone? They are for free! Federico > Stella, Bailu Si, Emilio Kropff, Alessandro Treves > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 566 - 567 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000575 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > What counts as the evidence for three-dimensional and four-dimensional > spatial representations? Ranxiao > Frances Wang, Whitney N. Street > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 567 - 568 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000587 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Are all types of vertical information created equal? Steven > M. Weisberg, Nora S. Newcombe > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 568 - 569 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000599 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Map fragmentation in two- and three-dimensional environments Homare > Yamahachi, May-Britt Moser, Edvard I. Moser > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 569 - 570 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000605 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > Does evidence from ethology support bicoded cognitive maps? Shane > Zappettini, Colin Allen > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 570 - 571 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13000617 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > ------------------------------ > *Authors' Response* A framework for three-dimensional navigation > research Kathryn > J. Jeffery, Aleksandar Jovalekic, Madeleine Verriotis, Robin Hayman > Behavioral and Brain Sciences , Volume > 36, Issue > 05, October 2013, pp 571 - 587 > doi: 10.1017/S0140525X13001556 (About doi) > Published Online on 08th October 2013 > [ abstract ] > > > > To access this issue visit: http://journals.cambridge.org/jid_BBS Tables > of contents and article abstracts are free to all on Cambridge Journals > Online. Access to the full text is available to users whose institutions > subscribe. If your institution does not subscribe why not recommend > Behavioral and Brain Sciences to your librarian today and gain access > 24-hours a day. Visit: http://journals.cambridge.org/recommend_BBS > > If you have any queries regarding this email or Cambridge Journals Online, > please email subscriptions_newyork@cambridge.org if you are located in > the USA, Canada, or Mexico and subscriptions_cambridge@cambridge.org if > you are located elsewhere. > > With best wishes > > Cambridge Journals http://journals.cambridge.org > > P.S We will continue to provide details as new content becomes available > for this journal, based on the parameters you have set on the Cambridge > Journals Online system. Please click Unsubscribeif you no longer wish to receive alerts. > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 13:17:57 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 13:17:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? mike On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Does anyone have this movie? I Have it in Portuguese but wanted to > show it to some people here in Japan. > > Maybe someone could upload a English version to Vimeo? > > Thanks > > Wagner > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 13:17:57 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 13:17:57 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? mike On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Does anyone have this movie? I Have it in Portuguese but wanted to > show it to some people here in Japan. > > Maybe someone could upload a English version to Vimeo? > > Thanks > > Wagner > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 13:20:25 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 13:20:25 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Messages in threes In-Reply-To: <1381216599.97773.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20131005223126.D978A10AE22@weber.ucsd.edu> <1381216599.97773.YahooMailNeo@web164702.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doung-- U wrote: looking for CHAT management ideas in a classical management world, Visit CRADLE and the Finnish DWR group website. Lots of articles in org development and management journals to be found in that patch. mike On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > Hi-- > > So that explains that mystery. Then again, I am just old enough to > remember when looking for overdetermination in messages was a good thing. > > My twitter: Currently looking for CHAT management ideas in a classical > management world, and occasionally dabbling in mediation of social issues > in cultural artifacts. > > DW > > > ________________________________ > From: Bruce Jones > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 3:31 PM > Subject: [Xmca-l] Messages in threes > > > >From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:10:36 2013 > > > >Recently in one message I talked about the following problem: > > > >Out of 11 new messages I'vejust received, 3 identical messages > >belong to Mike, 3 similar ones to El izabeth Hadley Nikrenz, > >and the last three ones to three persons, one to each. This > >problem occurred just at the beginning of the appearance of > >the listserve disorders a while ago. > > Last year, as I was preparing to retire, I moved the xmca > mailing list from its original home on weber.ucsd.edu to the > campus mail server ucsd.edu > > When I did, I set the list up with the address xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Following standard procedure at UCSD, that is the official name > for the xmca mailing list. > > Then I set up an alias so that mail sent to xmca@ucsd.edu > (no -l) would also go to the list, just in case people were > confused by the switch. > > Then, given many people would still try sending mail to > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu, I configured weber so that mail sent > to xmca@weber.ucsd.edu would automatically get forwarded to > xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > Someone who shall remain nameless (let's call him the "Great > Hacker") responded to my query of a few days ago and copied > his message to all three addresses: xmca-l@ucsd.edu, xmca@ucsd.edu, > and xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > People who responded to his message using the "Respond to All" > button or key, continued the tripling, and it began to cascade > through the list. > > This will play out as the thread whithers. > > In the future, people should *ONLY* send mail to one address, > preferrably to xmca-l@ucsd.edu > From amendelson@berkeley.edu Wed Oct 9 13:26:54 2013 From: amendelson@berkeley.edu (Adam Mendelson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 13:26:54 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: play In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Caitlin, Here's an article that deals with language play in foreign language learning at the university level. It discusses multiple theories of play that you might find helpful. http://llt.msu.edu/vol8num2/warner/default.html Adam -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces+amendelson=berkeley.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+amendelson=berkeley.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of CAITLIN WUBBENA Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 10:06 AM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] (no subject) Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher ed. Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be greatly appreciated! -Caitlin From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 14:42:23 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:42:23 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Caitlin, Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). -greg On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > ed. > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > greatly appreciated! > > -Caitlin > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 14:42:23 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:42:23 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Caitlin, Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). -greg On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > ed. > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > greatly appreciated! > > -Caitlin > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 15:32:07 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:32:07 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Mike, It belongs to BBC, but it is not available even in their website. So basically no access. Can't we treat it like a out of print book? If not, can you send it to me privately? I will use it inside the copyright laws (private and education non profit use). Wagner On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 5:17 AM, mike cole wrote: > I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it > belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > mike > > > On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> Does anyone have this movie? I Have it in Portuguese but wanted to >> show it to some people here in Japan. >> >> Maybe someone could upload a English version to Vimeo? >> >> Thanks >> >> Wagner >> From ablunden@mira.net Wed Oct 9 15:36:20 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:36:20 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and publish it on vimeo.com. I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for the BBC in 1990. So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although BBC is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its products. So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. But in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist which opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand it. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it > belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > mike > From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 15:48:03 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:48:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification Andy, I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. Wagner On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and > publish it on vimeo.com. > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for > the BBC in 1990. > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although BBC > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority > rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its > products. > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. But > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it > down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in > publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist which > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand it. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: >> >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it >> belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? >> mike >> > > From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 15:48:03 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:48:03 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification Andy, I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. Wagner On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and > publish it on vimeo.com. > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for > the BBC in 1990. > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although BBC > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority > rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its > products. > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. But > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it > down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in > publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist which > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand it. > > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: >> >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it >> belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? >> mike >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 16:16:22 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:16:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. mike On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Thanks for the clarification Andy, > > I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, > but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it > in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the > students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist > and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere > to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. > > Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and > > publish it on vimeo.com. > > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for > > the BBC in 1990. > > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although > BBC > > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority > > rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its > > products. > > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. > But > > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it > > down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in > > publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist > which > > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand > it. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> > >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it > >> belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > >> mike > >> > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 16:16:22 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:16:22 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. mike On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Thanks for the clarification Andy, > > I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, > but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it > in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the > students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist > and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere > to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. > > Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and > > publish it on vimeo.com. > > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for > > the BBC in 1990. > > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although > BBC > > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority > > rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its > > products. > > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. > But > > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it > > down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in > > publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist > which > > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand > it. > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> > >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it > >> belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > >> mike > >> > > > > > From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 16:28:27 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:28:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you very much Mike, Take the time you need, It will be very useful. All the best for you. Wagner On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 8:16 AM, mike cole wrote: > Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an > objection, > we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. > mike > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> Thanks for the clarification Andy, >> >> I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, >> but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it >> in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the >> students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist >> and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere >> to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. >> >> Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. >> >> Wagner >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and >> > publish it on vimeo.com. >> > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for >> > the BBC in 1990. >> > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although >> BBC >> > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority >> > rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its >> > products. >> > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. >> But >> > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it >> > down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in >> > publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist >> which >> > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand >> it. >> > >> > Andy >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > >> > >> > >> > mike cole wrote: >> >> >> >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it >> >> belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? >> >> mike >> >> >> > >> > >> From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Wed Oct 9 16:28:27 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:28:27 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: Thank you very much Mike, Take the time you need, It will be very useful. All the best for you. Wagner On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 8:16 AM, mike cole wrote: > Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an > objection, > we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. > mike > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> Thanks for the clarification Andy, >> >> I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, >> but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it >> in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the >> students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist >> and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere >> to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. >> >> Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. >> >> Wagner >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >> > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it and >> > publish it on vimeo.com. >> > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael Dean for >> > the BBC in 1990. >> > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. Although >> BBC >> > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory authority >> > rather than an arm of government so it does exercise ownership over its >> > products. >> > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. >> But >> > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could take it >> > down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only *persisting* in >> > publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal requests to desist >> which >> > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I understand >> it. >> > >> > Andy >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > *Andy Blunden* >> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > >> > >> > >> > mike cole wrote: >> >> >> >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. But it >> >> belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? >> >> mike >> >> >> > >> > >> From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Thu Oct 10 00:39:21 2013 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:39:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> 'Butterflies of Zagorsk' is the first of a series of three programmes in a short series called 'Transformers'. The other two programmes, one on the work of Reuven Feuerstein (Mediated learning and Instrumental Enrichment) and the other on Matthew Lippman's Philosophy for Children are also well worth watching. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 10 October 2013 00:16 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. mike On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Thanks for the clarification Andy, > > I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, > but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it > in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the > students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist > and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere > to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. > > Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it > > and publish it on vimeo.com. > > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael > > Dean for the BBC in 1990. > > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. > > Although > BBC > > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory > > authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise > > ownership over its products. > > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. > But > > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could > > take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only > > *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal > > requests to desist > which > > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I > > understand > it. > > > > Andy > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> > >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. > >> But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > >> mike > >> > > > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Thu Oct 10 00:39:21 2013 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:39:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> 'Butterflies of Zagorsk' is the first of a series of three programmes in a short series called 'Transformers'. The other two programmes, one on the work of Reuven Feuerstein (Mediated learning and Instrumental Enrichment) and the other on Matthew Lippman's Philosophy for Children are also well worth watching. Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: 10 October 2013 00:16 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. mike On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Thanks for the clarification Andy, > > I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, > but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it > in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the > students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist > and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere > to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. > > Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. > > Wagner > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it > > and publish it on vimeo.com. > > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael > > Dean for the BBC in 1990. > > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. > > Although > BBC > > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory > > authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise > > ownership over its products. > > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. > But > > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could > > take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only > > *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal > > requests to desist > which > > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I > > understand > it. > > > > Andy > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > *Andy Blunden* > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> > >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. > >> But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > >> mike > >> > > > > > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 08:36:53 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:36:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sounds fascinating, Rod. A great trio. Thanks Should be great for teaching as well. People know Valerie Lowe's film on Vygotsky: One man's legacy? An archive of those summative videos/films from various sources should be confusingly interesting. mike On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > 'Butterflies of Zagorsk' is the first of a series of three programmes in a > short series called 'Transformers'. The other two programmes, one on the > work of Reuven Feuerstein (Mediated learning and Instrumental Enrichment) > and the other on Matthew Lippman's Philosophy for Children are also well > worth watching. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 10 October 2013 00:16 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski > > Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an > objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. > mike > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarification Andy, > > > > I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, > > but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it > > in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the > > students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist > > and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere > > to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. > > > > Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. > > > > Wagner > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it > > > and publish it on vimeo.com. > > > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael > > > Dean for the BBC in 1990. > > > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. > > > Although > > BBC > > > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory > > > authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise > > > ownership over its products. > > > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. > > But > > > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could > > > take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only > > > *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal > > > requests to desist > > which > > > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I > > > understand > > it. > > > > > > Andy > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. > > >> But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > > >> mike > > >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 08:36:53 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:36:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sounds fascinating, Rod. A great trio. Thanks Should be great for teaching as well. People know Valerie Lowe's film on Vygotsky: One man's legacy? An archive of those summative videos/films from various sources should be confusingly interesting. mike On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > 'Butterflies of Zagorsk' is the first of a series of three programmes in a > short series called 'Transformers'. The other two programmes, one on the > work of Reuven Feuerstein (Mediated learning and Instrumental Enrichment) > and the other on Matthew Lippman's Philosophy for Children are also well > worth watching. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 10 October 2013 00:16 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski > > Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an > objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. > mike > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarification Andy, > > > > I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, > > but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it > > in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the > > students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist > > and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere > > to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. > > > > Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. > > > > Wagner > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > > > Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it > > > and publish it on vimeo.com. > > > I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael > > > Dean for the BBC in 1990. > > > So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. > > > Although > > BBC > > > is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory > > > authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise > > > ownership over its products. > > > So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. > > But > > > in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could > > > take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only > > > *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal > > > requests to desist > > which > > > opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I > > > understand > > it. > > > > > > Andy > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > > > > > > > > > mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. > > >> But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? > > >> mike > > >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif]< > http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/worldclass> > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for > the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the > information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. > If you have received this email in error please let the sender know > immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not > necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts > no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails > and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility > for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its > attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied > by an official order form. > From cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu Thu Oct 10 09:34:33 2013 From: cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu (CAITLIN WUBBENA) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:34:33 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, academic piece. My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of play as necessarily leading to productivity. As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I just received the email that it has arrived in the library. On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > -greg > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as > an > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > > ed. > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu Thu Oct 10 09:34:33 2013 From: cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu (CAITLIN WUBBENA) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:34:33 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, academic piece. My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of play as necessarily leading to productivity. As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I just received the email that it has arrived in the library. On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > -greg > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as > an > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > > ed. > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Oct 10 09:59:55 2013 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:59:55 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED69EF3FE57@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> It is funny. I am as an independent study taking a MOOC course with some students. One of the first things we have found is that the instructor wants to mix things. He wanted to establish the type of trusted user system and non-hierarchical approach to information sharing that is part of an Open Source philosophy (read my open source paper .01), but at the same time he wants to offer the type of direct, hierarchically oriented information delivery from a typical lecture class. I keep asking myself is this possible. The same thing seems true of a flipped classroom. They want an open classroom but they don't seem to want to give up control of topics and information that is so central to an open classroom. They are hoping it seems the Internet will allow them to split the baby, but is there a real argument for this or is it only wishful thinking? MIchael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of CAITLIN WUBBENA [cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 12:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, academic piece. My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of play as necessarily leading to productivity. As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I just received the email that it has arrived in the library. On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > -greg > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as > an > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > > ed. > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From glassman.13@osu.edu Thu Oct 10 10:05:19 2013 From: glassman.13@osu.edu (Glassman, Michael) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 17:05:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED69EF3FE57@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> References: , , <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED69EF3FE57@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Message-ID: <54248F6464A3874BB28FFF75F616AED69EF3FE6C@CIO-KRC-D1MBX01.osuad.osu.edu> Sorry, This was a mistake. It was supposed to be sent to a student who I was talking with about flipped classrooms. Sorry for any inconvenience. Michael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Glassman, Michael [glassman.13@osu.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 12:59 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) It is funny. I am as an independent study taking a MOOC course with some students. One of the first things we have found is that the instructor wants to mix things. He wanted to establish the type of trusted user system and non-hierarchical approach to information sharing that is part of an Open Source philosophy (read my open source paper .01), but at the same time he wants to offer the type of direct, hierarchically oriented information delivery from a typical lecture class. I keep asking myself is this possible. The same thing seems true of a flipped classroom. They want an open classroom but they don't seem to want to give up control of topics and information that is so central to an open classroom. They are hoping it seems the Internet will allow them to split the baby, but is there a real argument for this or is it only wishful thinking? MIchael ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of CAITLIN WUBBENA [cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 12:34 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, academic piece. My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of play as necessarily leading to productivity. As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I just received the email that it has arrived in the library. On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > -greg > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as > an > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > > ed. > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 13:28:29 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:28:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds fascinating, Caitlin. But also difficult and in some contexts, frought (example, in culture x ethnographers report little and/or childhood pretend play and people from culture x are said to remain in preoperational period of thought and lack empathy). You know the Mathews work on child philosophizing? It was mentioned as a movie by Rod in an earlier message. good luck and keep us posted! mike On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely > rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up > in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate > skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in > these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class > [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED > talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, > academic piece. > > My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the > theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to > trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate > the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks > and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical > aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on > play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal > will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. > > Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect > that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few > conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of > play as necessarily leading to productivity. > > As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I > just received the email that it has arrived in the library. > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > Caitlin, > > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different > thing > > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > > -greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA > >wrote: > > > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > > want > > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > as > > an > > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > to > > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > higher > > > ed. > > > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 13:28:29 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:28:29 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds fascinating, Caitlin. But also difficult and in some contexts, frought (example, in culture x ethnographers report little and/or childhood pretend play and people from culture x are said to remain in preoperational period of thought and lack empathy). You know the Mathews work on child philosophizing? It was mentioned as a movie by Rod in an earlier message. good luck and keep us posted! mike On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 9:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely > rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up > in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate > skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in > these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class > [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED > talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, > academic piece. > > My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the > theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to > trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate > the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks > and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical > aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on > play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal > will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. > > Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect > that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few > conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of > play as necessarily leading to productivity. > > As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I > just received the email that it has arrived in the library. > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > Caitlin, > > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different > thing > > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > > -greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA > >wrote: > > > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > > want > > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > as > > an > > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > to > > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > higher > > > ed. > > > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > From R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk Thu Oct 10 13:52:30 2013 From: R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk (Rod Parker-Rees) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:52:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C88A@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Hi Caitlin, You might also find Vera John-Steiner's work on 'Creative Collaboration' (2000, Oxford University Press) relevant to your study - and the book of letters to Vera edited by Robert Lake and Cathrene Connery ('Constructing a Community of Thought' Peter Lang Publishers 2013). All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of CAITLIN WUBBENA Sent: 10 October 2013 17:35 To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, academic piece. My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of play as necessarily leading to productivity. As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I just received the email that it has arrived in the library. On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different thing > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > -greg > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as > an > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > > ed. > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > ________________________________ [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. From joe.glick@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 13:53:32 2013 From: joe.glick@gmail.com (JAG) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:53:32 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: The transformers can bought for 99 pounds UK from a link from BBC. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2013, at 3:39 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: > > 'Butterflies of Zagorsk' is the first of a series of three programmes in a short series called 'Transformers'. The other two programmes, one on the work of Reuven Feuerstein (Mediated learning and Instrumental Enrichment) and the other on Matthew Lippman's Philosophy for Children are also well worth watching. > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole > Sent: 10 October 2013 00:16 > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski > > Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. > mike > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit > wrote: > >> Thanks for the clarification Andy, >> >> I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, >> but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it >> in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the >> students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist >> and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere >> to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. >> >> Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. >> >> Wagner >> >>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>> Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it >>> and publish it on vimeo.com. >>> I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael >>> Dean for the BBC in 1990. >>> So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. >>> Although >> BBC >>> is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory >>> authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise >>> ownership over its products. >>> So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. >> But >>> in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could >>> take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only >>> *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal >>> requests to desist >> which >>> opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I >>> understand >> it. >>> >>> Andy >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> *Andy Blunden* >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>> >>> >>> >>> mike cole wrote: >>>> >>>> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. >>>> But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? >>>> mike > ________________________________ > [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] > > This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. > From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 15:34:29 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 07:34:29 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski In-Reply-To: References: <5255DA64.7010505@mira.net> <8F385CC13313CC47B866739C3A4BC31102C162@TIS105.uopnet.plymouth.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Joe, Can you point the link? I could not find anything on BBC website. I tried several combinations for the search with no results. Wagner On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:53 AM, JAG wrote: > The transformers can bought for 99 pounds UK from a link from BBC. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 10, 2013, at 3:39 AM, Rod Parker-Rees wrote: >> >> 'Butterflies of Zagorsk' is the first of a series of three programmes in a short series called 'Transformers'. The other two programmes, one on the work of Reuven Feuerstein (Mediated learning and Instrumental Enrichment) and the other on Matthew Lippman's Philosophy for Children are also well worth watching. >> >> Rod >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole >> Sent: 10 October 2013 00:16 >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Butterflies of Zagorski >> >> Given that advice, we will go ahead and make a copy. If there is an objection, we will take it down. Give us a little time, but asap. >> mike >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Wagner Luiz Schmit >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the clarification Andy, >>> >>> I like that video very much, and it is easily accessible on Youtube, >>> but only in Portuguese and with a very very bad quality. I showed it >>> in my classes at Brazil to discuss development and education, the >>> students always got shocked that a blind person can be a Psychologist >>> and have a fruitful life. But now I am in Japan and looked everywhere >>> to an English copy, even with BBC, and no chance. >>> >>> Indeed most BBC documentaries are available online, but this is not. >>> >>> Wagner >>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: >>>> Who owns the VHS tape is not material to your right to digitise it >>>> and publish it on vimeo.com. >>>> I understand that Butterflies of Zagorsk was produced by Michael >>>> Dean for the BBC in 1990. >>>> So it will be Michael Dean and/or the BBC who owns the rights. >>>> Although >>> BBC >>>> is a public organisation, I understand that it is a statutory >>>> authority rather than an arm of government so it does exercise >>>> ownership over its products. >>>> So *technically* you do not have the right to publish it on vimeo.com. >>> But >>>> in reality, if Dean or the BBC were to object, then it you could >>>> take it down and that would be the end of the matter. It is only >>>> *persisting* in publishing copyrighted material contrary to legal >>>> requests to desist >>> which >>>> opens you to legal threat, not the publishing as such, as I >>>> understand >>> it. >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> *Andy Blunden* >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mike cole wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have a copy of this video in vhs format which can be digitized. >>>>> But it belongs to someone. Do I have to right to post it on vimeo? >>>>> mike >> ________________________________ >> [http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/images/email_footer.gif] >> >> This email and any files with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient then copying, distribution or other use of the information contained is strictly prohibited and you should not rely on it. If you have received this email in error please let the sender know immediately and delete it from your system(s). Internet emails are not necessarily secure. While we take every care, Plymouth University accepts no responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan emails and their attachments. Plymouth University does not accept responsibility for any changes made after it was sent. Nothing in this email or its attachments constitutes an order for goods or services unless accompanied by an official order form. >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 17:00:35 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 17:00:35 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ethnography Matters Message-ID: Saw mention of this website which looks like it should be of wide interest. mike http://ethnographymatters.net/ From joe.glick@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 20:28:28 2013 From: joe.glick@gmail.com (JAG) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 23:28:28 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Am searching Message-ID: From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 10 23:08:55 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 00:08:55 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Caitlin, I find it fascinating that you are interested in studying play in the stage of ADULTHOOD. And more fascinating that you would look in the peculiar adulthood stage that is filled with those strange and serious characters called "academics". Did I get that right? Something about putting play (informal conversation?) back into academia? If so, I say "YES"! but am not sure quite how to help... Or maybe, first, I should ask: what is "play" in adulthood? Defining by opposition, what does it oppose? Work? Seriousness? Something else? What do you think? playfully, greg On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's definitely > rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up > in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate > skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in > these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class > [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED > talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, > academic piece. > > My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the > theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to > trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate > the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED talks > and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical > aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay on > play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal > will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. > > Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I suspect > that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few > conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of > play as necessarily leading to productivity. > > As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I > just received the email that it has arrived in the library. > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > Caitlin, > > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different > thing > > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that the > > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > > -greg > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA > >wrote: > > > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > > want > > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > as > > an > > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > to > > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > higher > > > ed. > > > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu Fri Oct 11 14:59:49 2013 From: cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu (CAITLIN WUBBENA) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:59:49 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the positive feedback and great ideas! It's been really helpful for me and I think I've been more able to mentally conceptualize where I'm going. If this remains interesting, please continue to provide feedback and ideas! Greg-- Play as informal conversation is great verbiage...that gives me some direction. Let's say informal, intellectually adventurous conversation. So, I think you've hit the nail on the head...but I want to be careful to not describe play as in opposition to seriousness. In fact, using Plato's conceptualizations of play, I want to argue that the inability to play (due to lack of practice in childhood, I suppose) is precisely what hinders those strange and serious characters from engaging fully/creatively in academia. For example, I think of the overzealous grad student who bulldozes his colleagues during a debate or the uninspired post doc who is too hard on herself when a project isn't going completely according to plan. These people are successful insofar as they've arrived at a certain selective/impressive place (definite snaps to that)...still, I would argue that they would benefit from being intellectually playful/adventurous so they can produce serious and creative work that is responsive to their given context (empathy learned from play in childhood). So, a playful attitude, I will submit, results in serious (and higher quality!) academic work. How does that sound? I suppose I don't think play is in opposition to anything... -C. On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > > I find it fascinating that you are interested in studying play in the stage > of ADULTHOOD. And more fascinating that you would look in the peculiar > adulthood stage that is filled with those strange and serious characters > called "academics". > > Did I get that right? Something about putting play (informal conversation?) > back into academia? > > If so, I say "YES"! but am not sure quite how to help... > > Or maybe, first, I should ask: what is "play" in adulthood? > > Defining by opposition, what does it oppose? > Work? > Seriousness? > Something else? > > What do you think? > > playfully, > greg > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's > definitely > > rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up > > in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate > > skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in > > these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class > > [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED > > talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, > > academic piece. > > > > My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the > > theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to > > trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate > > the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED > talks > > and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical > > aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay > on > > play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal > > will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. > > > > Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I > suspect > > that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few > > conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of > > play as necessarily leading to productivity. > > > > As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I > > just received the email that it has arrived in the library. > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson > >wrote: > > > > > Caitlin, > > > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > > > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different > > thing > > > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that > the > > > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. > I > > > want > > > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > and > > > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > > as > > > an > > > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > > to > > > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > and > > > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > higher > > > > ed. > > > > > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu Fri Oct 11 14:59:49 2013 From: cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu (CAITLIN WUBBENA) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:59:49 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the positive feedback and great ideas! It's been really helpful for me and I think I've been more able to mentally conceptualize where I'm going. If this remains interesting, please continue to provide feedback and ideas! Greg-- Play as informal conversation is great verbiage...that gives me some direction. Let's say informal, intellectually adventurous conversation. So, I think you've hit the nail on the head...but I want to be careful to not describe play as in opposition to seriousness. In fact, using Plato's conceptualizations of play, I want to argue that the inability to play (due to lack of practice in childhood, I suppose) is precisely what hinders those strange and serious characters from engaging fully/creatively in academia. For example, I think of the overzealous grad student who bulldozes his colleagues during a debate or the uninspired post doc who is too hard on herself when a project isn't going completely according to plan. These people are successful insofar as they've arrived at a certain selective/impressive place (definite snaps to that)...still, I would argue that they would benefit from being intellectually playful/adventurous so they can produce serious and creative work that is responsive to their given context (empathy learned from play in childhood). So, a playful attitude, I will submit, results in serious (and higher quality!) academic work. How does that sound? I suppose I don't think play is in opposition to anything... -C. On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Caitlin, > > I find it fascinating that you are interested in studying play in the stage > of ADULTHOOD. And more fascinating that you would look in the peculiar > adulthood stage that is filled with those strange and serious characters > called "academics". > > Did I get that right? Something about putting play (informal conversation?) > back into academia? > > If so, I say "YES"! but am not sure quite how to help... > > Or maybe, first, I should ask: what is "play" in adulthood? > > Defining by opposition, what does it oppose? > Work? > Seriousness? > Something else? > > What do you think? > > playfully, > greg > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >wrote: > > > Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's > definitely > > rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up > > in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate > > skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in > > these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class > > [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED > > talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, > > academic piece. > > > > My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the > > theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to > > trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate > > the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED > talks > > and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical > > aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay > on > > play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal > > will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. > > > > Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I > suspect > > that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few > > conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of > > play as necessarily leading to productivity. > > > > As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I > > just received the email that it has arrived in the library. > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson > >wrote: > > > > > Caitlin, > > > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > > > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different > > thing > > > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that > the > > > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > > > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. > I > > > want > > > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > and > > > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > > as > > > an > > > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > > to > > > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > > > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > and > > > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > higher > > > > ed. > > > > > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > > Department of Anthropology > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > Brigham Young University > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br Fri Oct 11 20:12:36 2013 From: jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br (Joao Martins) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 00:12:36 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cec6f8$e7517f30$b5f47d90$@sercomtel.com.br> I need to find two books and would like the help of this list. The first is: Fradkin, F. A., (1990), A Search in Pedagogies. Discussions of the 1920s and the early 1930s. Moscou : Ed. du Progr?s and the second is J. loteyko (1908). Le Mouvement p?dologique, Li?ge. can someone help me? Thanks Joao Martins From jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br Fri Oct 11 20:12:36 2013 From: jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br (Joao Martins) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 00:12:36 -0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] RES: Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cec6f8$e7517f30$b5f47d90$@sercomtel.com.br> I need to find two books and would like the help of this list. The first is: Fradkin, F. A., (1990), A Search in Pedagogies. Discussions of the 1920s and the early 1930s. Moscou : Ed. du Progr?s and the second is J. loteyko (1908). Le Mouvement p?dologique, Li?ge. can someone help me? Thanks Joao Martins From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Fri Oct 11 20:18:02 2013 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (vwilk) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:18:02 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5258BF6A.8090704@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Hello, Caitlin, I'm jumping in quick before the thread vanishes. The last time I wanted to say something, it slipped away beyond reach in two days. I'm into Philosophy too. Play, Games, Education, General Systems Theory, Learning Environment, Vygotsky and I'm definitely into Vygotsky through Mike Cole, this list, and Yrjo Engestrom. So, back to play and "Play" and academics. Well, you know, "The Play's the thing...!" via Hamlet, so it is no accident a play on the stage, a simulation, an enactment, a game board, a stage, a "theatre", a scaffold are all about "representation"then to imitation and then parody. I can do an academic paper on the topic of parody using a fox and a cockrel, which would connect to literature, philosphy, history, and cognitive framing. There are big in literature, philosophy, archetypes, levels of consciousness that comparatists work with. So a few lines of keywords and concepts, and how much time do I have to unpack any of it? Well, have you ever heard of "Golf in the Kingdom" a novel by Michael Murphy? It is plainly an "homage" at the conceptual level, to Plato's Symposium, in a discussion of golf (as an example) and. ...then to mind. All you ever have to do is remember that an academic Symposium plainly has drinking and Plato's Symposium standing solidly behind it. Socrates and his friends were celebrating the reception of Agathon's play and agreed to a discussion of Eros. We ultimately go through Diotima's abstract ladder. If we take two steps forward to our own time, one to science/fantasy fiction and the other to gender, we get to a place where we have to take on paradox and absurdity, parable and allegory -- and then weaving fantastic theories for academic articles to be published in refereed journals. I'm sorry that I have not said nearly enough. My lack of linear development greatly impedes my academic career. That said, we could go back to the Medieval philosophers discussing dialectics, a typical exam question for a quodlibet: "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin." An angelic intelligence has to dance, on the head of a pin, or anywhere else, to avoid being excommunicated or burned at the stake. Then there is Shakespeare's Macbeth saying, "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player (!) That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more. It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signfiying nothing." General Systems Theory in cooperation with "set theory" (the name is not the thing named) trains one to leap from the general to the specific, one concept to another, one level of analysis to another. The ground and framing provided by one's own discipline set the stage or create the field, but with the skillful and occasional use of "abduction" new information, new models, new avenues appear to refresh the terrain. Please forgive me for "just talking in metaphors" without drawing any of the essential lines and links to hook into your work. Valerie (2013/10/12 6:59), CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Thanks everyone for the positive feedback and great ideas! It's been really > helpful for me and I think I've been more able to mentally conceptualize > where I'm going. If this remains interesting, please continue to provide > feedback and ideas! > > Greg-- Play as informal conversation is great verbiage...that gives me some > direction. Let's say informal, intellectually adventurous conversation. So, > I think you've hit the nail on the head...but I want to be careful to not > describe play as in opposition to seriousness. In fact, using Plato's > conceptualizations of play, I want to argue that the inability to play (due > to lack of practice in childhood, I suppose) is precisely what hinders > those strange and serious characters from engaging fully/creatively in > academia. For example, I think of the overzealous grad student who > bulldozes his colleagues during a debate or the uninspired post doc who is > too hard on herself when a project isn't going completely according to > plan. These people are successful insofar as they've arrived at a certain > selective/impressive place (definite snaps to that)...still, I would argue > that they would benefit from being intellectually playful/adventurous so > they can produce serious and creative work that is responsive to their > given context (empathy learned from play in childhood). So, a playful > attitude, I will submit, results in serious (and higher quality!) academic > work. > > How does that sound? I suppose I don't think play is in opposition to > anything... > > -C. > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Caitlin, >> >> I find it fascinating that you are interested in studying play in the stage >> of ADULTHOOD. And more fascinating that you would look in the peculiar >> adulthood stage that is filled with those strange and serious characters >> called "academics". >> >> Did I get that right? Something about putting play (informal conversation?) >> back into academia? >> >> If so, I say "YES"! but am not sure quite how to help... >> >> Or maybe, first, I should ask: what is "play" in adulthood? >> >> Defining by opposition, what does it oppose? >> Work? >> Seriousness? >> Something else? >> >> What do you think? >> >> playfully, >> greg >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >> wrote: >>> Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's >> definitely >>> rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew up >>> in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate debate >>> skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up in >>> these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class >>> [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like TED >>> talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, >>> academic piece. >>> >>> My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the >>> theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is to >>> trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to illustrate >>> the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED >> talks >>> and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical >>> aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay >> on >>> play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal >>> will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. >>> >>> Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I >> suspect >>> that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a few >>> conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea of >>> play as necessarily leading to productivity. >>> >>> As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in fact, I >>> just received the email that it has arrived in the library. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>>> Caitlin, >>>> Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? >>>> I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different >>> thing >>>> from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that >> the >>>> two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >>>>> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >>>>> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >>>>> >>>>> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. >> I >>>> want >>>>> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed >> and >>>>> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) >>> as >>>> an >>>>> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation >>> to >>>>> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >>>>> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky >> and >>>>> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to >>> higher >>>>> ed. >>>>> >>>>> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >>>>> greatly appreciated! >>>>> >>>>> -Caitlin >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Visiting Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 06:58:56 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 06:58:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Tenure Track Position - University of Wisconsin-Whitewater In-Reply-To: <5297B84E26A10C4595E8BF3C9D4475C6049E8513@FMB10.uww.edu> References: <5297B84E26A10C4595E8BF3C9D4475C6049E8513@FMB10.uww.edu> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Street, Sandra Y* Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013 Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Tenure Track Position - University of Wisconsin-Whitewater To: "cogdevsoc@virginia.edu" Dear Colleagues, Please see the ad below regarding a tenure-track position in Developmental Psychology at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater. Please distribute widely. Thanks, Sandra -- Sandra Y. Street, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Psychology 800 W. Main, Laurentide Hall 1224 University of Wisconsin-Whitewater 262-472-2257 streets@uww.edu Position: Tenure Track Assistant Professor, Department of Psychology. Qualifications: Candidates should have a Ph.D. or ABD in developmental psychology or developmental science. Salary: Competitive Responsibilities: Duties may include teaching undergraduate courses in adolescent development, emerging adulthood and aging, a graduate course in learning theories, and introductory courses in psychology and in our general education curriculum. The possibility for the candidate to develop a course in his or her area of interest is available. The position requires a demonstrated record or evident potential for effective teaching and for maintaining a strong program of research that involves students in meaningful ways. The ability to secure extramural funding is desirable. We have several graduate assistants available to support research efforts and an excellent university Office of Research and Sponsored Programs, and start-up funding is negotiable. We are especially interested in candidates who will enhance the diversity of our department. University: UW-Whitewater is a premier public regional university with an enrollment of over 12,000 students in 50 undergraduate majors and 11 master's degree programs. It offers high-quality, career oriented programs with a model general education curriculum. Community: Whitewater, a city of over 14,000, is located in southeastern Wisconsin near the scenic Kettle Moraine State Forest. The immediate area offers a wide variety of summer and winter recreational activities, including facilities of the nearby Whitewater Lake recreational area. Whitewater is 50 miles from Milwaukee, 45 miles from Madison, and 110 miles from Chicago. Application: Applications should be submitted electronically. Submit a letter of application, brief statements of teaching and research interests, vita, representative reprints, copies of all graduate transcripts, and three letters of recommendation to Elizabeth Olson, Ph.D., Chair, Development Search Committee at devpsychsearch@uww.edu >. Inquiries at the email address above or 262-472-5400. Review: Review of applications will begin January 6, 2014, and continue until the position is filled. UW-Whitewater is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer. We promote excellence through diversity and encourage all qualified individuals to apply. Background checks of finalist will be conducted. -------------- next part -------------- =========== To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@virginia.edu (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To leave the CDS listserv, send a message to sympa@virginia.edu. The subject line should read: "unsubscribe cogdevsoc" (no quotes). Leave the message body blank. For other information about the listserv, including how to update your email address and how to subscribe, visit http://www.cogdevsoc.org/listserv.php ============ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Developmental Psychology position description (1).docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 16263 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131012/f1a43dee/attachment.bin From djwdoc@yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 10:20:53 2013 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 10:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. ? On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as it has turned these many years:? Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more creatively? Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the poets. Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do with stories of long ago? Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of weaving such webs? Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the relation of a word like "web" to the design? Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there is no narrative there. Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would you agree that narratives might be tools, too? Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates.? Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, they selected not history, but arrant lies. Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the living, but of the future. Most terrible! Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of Internet, if I understand rightly. Plato. Surely not! Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange term. Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of crumbs they had left behind them. Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular meaning? Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the barbarians. Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their minds with lies and delusions? Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is drawn. Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one kind of adze? Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a danger to society? Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. Regards, Doug On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher ed. Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be greatly appreciated! -Caitlin From djwdoc@yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 10:20:53 2013 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 10:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. ? On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as it has turned these many years:? Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more creatively? Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the poets. Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do with stories of long ago? Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of weaving such webs? Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the relation of a word like "web" to the design? Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there is no narrative there. Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would you agree that narratives might be tools, too? Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates.? Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, they selected not history, but arrant lies. Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the living, but of the future. Most terrible! Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of Internet, if I understand rightly. Plato. Surely not! Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange term. Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of crumbs they had left behind them. Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular meaning? Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the barbarians. Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their minds with lies and delusions? Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is drawn. Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one kind of adze? Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a danger to society? Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. Regards, Doug On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher ed. Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be greatly appreciated! -Caitlin From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 11:06:20 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:06:20 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Neat, Doug. The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting and the dialogue a lot of fun. I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. But I could well be mistaken. mike On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > Hi-- > > One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's > Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > > > I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people > becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I > think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though > it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: > By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of > horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs > ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > > > On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres > of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in > the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the > other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought > begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge > out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as > it has turned these many years: > > Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you > have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more > creatively? > > > Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few > have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that > this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > poets. > > > Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do > with stories of long ago? > > Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by > devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > > > Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense > of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > > Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. > > > Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's > web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > > Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > > Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > weaving such webs? > > > Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? > > > Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > relation of a word like "web" to the design? > > > Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there > is no narrative there. > > Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would > you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > > Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest > posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, > they selected not history, but arrant lies. > > Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the > living, but of the future. Most terrible! > > Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > Internet, if I understand rightly. > > Plato. Surely not! > > Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to > navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange > term. > > Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" > that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? > > Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children > scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so > that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of > crumbs they had left behind them. > > Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to > describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > meaning? > > Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, > it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you > think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > > Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the > barbarians. > > Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case > of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their > minds with lies and delusions? > > Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of > thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free > themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is > drawn. > > Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one > kind of adze? > > Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think > with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > > Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > danger to society? > > Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in > some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > > Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, > and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, > after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that > anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in > vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > > Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > > Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > > Regards, > Doug > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > ed. > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > greatly appreciated! > > -Caitlin > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 11:06:20 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:06:20 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Neat, Doug. The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting and the dialogue a lot of fun. I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. But I could well be mistaken. mike On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > Hi-- > > One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's > Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > > > I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people > becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I > think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though > it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: > By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of > horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs > ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > > > On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres > of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in > the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the > other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought > begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge > out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as > it has turned these many years: > > Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you > have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more > creatively? > > > Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few > have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that > this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > poets. > > > Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do > with stories of long ago? > > Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by > devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > > > Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense > of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > > Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. > > > Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's > web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > > Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > > Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > weaving such webs? > > > Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? > > > Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > relation of a word like "web" to the design? > > > Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there > is no narrative there. > > Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would > you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > > Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest > posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, > they selected not history, but arrant lies. > > Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the > living, but of the future. Most terrible! > > Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > Internet, if I understand rightly. > > Plato. Surely not! > > Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to > navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange > term. > > Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" > that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? > > Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children > scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so > that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of > crumbs they had left behind them. > > Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to > describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > meaning? > > Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, > it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you > think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > > Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the > barbarians. > > Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case > of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their > minds with lies and delusions? > > Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of > thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free > themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is > drawn. > > Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one > kind of adze? > > Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think > with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > > Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > danger to society? > > Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in > some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > > Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, > and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, > after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that > anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in > vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > > Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > > Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > > Regards, > Doug > > > > > > On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > ed. > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > greatly appreciated! > > -Caitlin > From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 12:26:22 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:26:22 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Message-ID: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> Dear Mike and all, The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. What do you think? Ana mike cole wrote: >Neat, Doug. > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >But I could well be mistaken. >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > >> Hi-- >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as >> it has turned these many years: >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more >> creatively? >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >> poets. >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do >> with stories of long ago? >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there >> is no narrative there. >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange >> term. >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of >> crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >> meaning? >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the >> barbarians. >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their >> minds with lies and delusions? >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is >> drawn. >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one >> kind of adze? >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >> danger to society? >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> Regards, >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher >> ed. >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> greatly appreciated! >> >> -Caitlin >> From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 12:26:22 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:26:22 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Message-ID: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> Dear Mike and all, The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. What do you think? Ana mike cole wrote: >Neat, Doug. > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >But I could well be mistaken. >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > >> Hi-- >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as >> it has turned these many years: >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more >> creatively? >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >> poets. >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do >> with stories of long ago? >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there >> is no narrative there. >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange >> term. >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of >> crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >> meaning? >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the >> barbarians. >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their >> minds with lies and delusions? >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is >> drawn. >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one >> kind of adze? >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >> danger to society? >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> Regards, >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher >> ed. >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> greatly appreciated! >> >> -Caitlin >> From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 12:28:56 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:28:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> Message-ID: Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted his dialogic principles? mike On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike and all, > > The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > meaning "to talk in the belly" > > " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort > of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more > usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called > seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this > was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From > the online etymological dictionary. > > I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to > the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the > belly". > > Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates > ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > mike cole wrote: > > >Neat, Doug. > > > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > interesting > >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have > this > >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one > God. > >But I could well be mistaken. > >mike > > > > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > wrote: > > > >> Hi-- > >> > >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's > >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> > >> > >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people > >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > worlds. I > >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > though > >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > audience: > >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > horror of > >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > clubs > >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > genres > >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in > >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the > >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > thought > >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to > emerge > >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world > as > >> it has turned these many years: > >> > >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose > you > >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think > more > >> creatively? > >> > >> > >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few > >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune > that > >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > >> poets. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do > >> with stories of long ago? > >> > >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived > by > >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> > >> > >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > sense > >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> > >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real > world. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's > >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> > >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> > >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> weaving such webs? > >> > >> > >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > things? > >> > >> > >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> > >> > >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But > there > >> is no narrative there. > >> > >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? > Would > >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> > >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > latest > >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, > >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> > >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of > the > >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> > >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> > >> Plato. Surely not! > >> > >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft > to > >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > strange > >> term. > >> > >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > "web" > >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it > mean? > >> > >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > children > >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, > so > >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of > >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> > >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used > to > >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> meaning? > >> > >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > mistaken, > >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you > >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> > >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of > the > >> barbarians. > >> > >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a > case > >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled > their > >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> > >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form > of > >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to > free > >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > "breadcrumb" is > >> drawn. > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one > >> kind of adze? > >> > >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think > >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > >> danger to society? > >> > >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in > >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> > >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my > ears, > >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry > is, > >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know > that > >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will > be in > >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> > >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> > >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> > >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > as an > >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > higher > >> ed. > >> > >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> greatly appreciated! > >> > >> -Caitlin > >> > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 12:28:56 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:28:56 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> Message-ID: Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted his dialogic principles? mike On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike and all, > > The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > meaning "to talk in the belly" > > " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort > of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more > usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called > seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this > was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From > the online etymological dictionary. > > I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to > the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the > belly". > > Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates > ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > mike cole wrote: > > >Neat, Doug. > > > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > interesting > >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have > this > >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one > God. > >But I could well be mistaken. > >mike > > > > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > wrote: > > > >> Hi-- > >> > >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's > >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> > >> > >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people > >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > worlds. I > >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > though > >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > audience: > >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > horror of > >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > clubs > >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > genres > >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in > >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the > >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > thought > >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to > emerge > >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world > as > >> it has turned these many years: > >> > >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose > you > >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think > more > >> creatively? > >> > >> > >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few > >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune > that > >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > >> poets. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do > >> with stories of long ago? > >> > >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived > by > >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> > >> > >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > sense > >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> > >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real > world. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's > >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> > >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> > >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> weaving such webs? > >> > >> > >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > things? > >> > >> > >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> > >> > >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But > there > >> is no narrative there. > >> > >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? > Would > >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> > >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > latest > >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, > >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> > >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of > the > >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> > >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> > >> Plato. Surely not! > >> > >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft > to > >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > strange > >> term. > >> > >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > "web" > >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it > mean? > >> > >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > children > >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, > so > >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of > >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> > >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used > to > >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> meaning? > >> > >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > mistaken, > >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you > >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> > >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of > the > >> barbarians. > >> > >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a > case > >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled > their > >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> > >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form > of > >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to > free > >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > "breadcrumb" is > >> drawn. > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one > >> kind of adze? > >> > >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think > >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > >> danger to society? > >> > >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in > >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> > >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my > ears, > >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry > is, > >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know > that > >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will > be in > >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> > >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> > >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> > >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > want > >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > as an > >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > higher > >> ed. > >> > >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> greatly appreciated! > >> > >> -Caitlin > >> > From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Sat Oct 12 13:40:15 2013 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 20:40:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> There is, of course, the risk that the term might suggest that the speaker is a 'dummy', which Bakhtin, I am sure, did not mean. I've always assumed he used the term to refer to the idea that much of what we speak is *other people's* words, and indeed often their style of speech too. A friend expressed a similar idea with the observation: "Be careful with words, you don't know whose mouth they've been in" Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ana Marjanovic-Shane [anamshane@gmail.com] Sent: 12 October 2013 20:26 To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Dear Mike and all, The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. What do you think? Ana mike cole wrote: >Neat, Doug. > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >But I could well be mistaken. >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > >> Hi-- >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as >> it has turned these many years: >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more >> creatively? >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >> poets. >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do >> with stories of long ago? >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there >> is no narrative there. >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange >> term. >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of >> crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >> meaning? >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the >> barbarians. >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their >> minds with lies and delusions? >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is >> drawn. >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one >> kind of adze? >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >> danger to society? >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> Regards, >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher >> ed. >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> greatly appreciated! >> >> -Caitlin >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk Sat Oct 12 13:40:15 2013 From: C.Barker@mmu.ac.uk (C Barker) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 20:40:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy Message-ID: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> There is, of course, the risk that the term might suggest that the speaker is a 'dummy', which Bakhtin, I am sure, did not mean. I've always assumed he used the term to refer to the idea that much of what we speak is *other people's* words, and indeed often their style of speech too. A friend expressed a similar idea with the observation: "Be careful with words, you don't know whose mouth they've been in" Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ana Marjanovic-Shane [anamshane@gmail.com] Sent: 12 October 2013 20:26 To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Dear Mike and all, The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. What do you think? Ana mike cole wrote: >Neat, Doug. > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >But I could well be mistaken. >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > >> Hi-- >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as >> it has turned these many years: >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more >> creatively? >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >> poets. >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do >> with stories of long ago? >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there >> is no narrative there. >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange >> term. >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of >> crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >> meaning? >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the >> barbarians. >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their >> minds with lies and delusions? >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is >> drawn. >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one >> kind of adze? >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >> danger to society? >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> Regards, >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher >> ed. >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> greatly appreciated! >> >> -Caitlin >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:35:42 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 17:35:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> Message-ID: <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Dear Mike, I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him by others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which could be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as self-consciousness, is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if one was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices living in an inner dialogue. "And in the words of the story not only the pure intonations of the author would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. What do you think? Ana On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted his dialogic principles? > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike and all, > > The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" > > " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. > > I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". > > Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > mike cole wrote: > > >Neat, Doug. > > > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting > >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this > >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. > >But I could well be mistaken. > >mike > > > > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > >> Hi-- > >> > >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's > >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> > >> > >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people > >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I > >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though > >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: > >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of > >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs > >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres > >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in > >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the > >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought > >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge > >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as > >> it has turned these many years: > >> > >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you > >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more > >> creatively? > >> > >> > >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few > >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that > >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > >> poets. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do > >> with stories of long ago? > >> > >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by > >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> > >> > >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense > >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> > >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's > >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> > >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> > >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> weaving such webs? > >> > >> > >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? > >> > >> > >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> > >> > >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there > >> is no narrative there. > >> > >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would > >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> > >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest > >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, > >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> > >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the > >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> > >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> > >> Plato. Surely not! > >> > >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to > >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange > >> term. > >> > >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" > >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? > >> > >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children > >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so > >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of > >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> > >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to > >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> meaning? > >> > >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, > >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you > >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> > >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the > >> barbarians. > >> > >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case > >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their > >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> > >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of > >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free > >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is > >> drawn. > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one > >> kind of adze? > >> > >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think > >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > >> danger to society? > >> > >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in > >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> > >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, > >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, > >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that > >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in > >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> > >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> > >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> > >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > >> ed. > >> > >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> greatly appreciated! > >> > >> -Caitlin > >> > From anamshane@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:35:42 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 17:35:42 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> Message-ID: <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Dear Mike, I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him by others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which could be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as self-consciousness, is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if one was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices living in an inner dialogue. "And in the words of the story not only the pure intonations of the author would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. What do you think? Ana On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted his dialogic principles? > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike and all, > > The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" > > " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. > > I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". > > Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > mike cole wrote: > > >Neat, Doug. > > > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting > >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this > >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. > >But I could well be mistaken. > >mike > > > > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > >> Hi-- > >> > >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's > >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> > >> > >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people > >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I > >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though > >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: > >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of > >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs > >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres > >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in > >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the > >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought > >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge > >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as > >> it has turned these many years: > >> > >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you > >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more > >> creatively? > >> > >> > >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few > >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that > >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > >> poets. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do > >> with stories of long ago? > >> > >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by > >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> > >> > >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense > >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> > >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. > >> > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's > >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> > >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> > >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> weaving such webs? > >> > >> > >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? > >> > >> > >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> > >> > >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there > >> is no narrative there. > >> > >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would > >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> > >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest > >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, > >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> > >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the > >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> > >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> > >> Plato. Surely not! > >> > >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to > >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange > >> term. > >> > >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" > >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? > >> > >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children > >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so > >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of > >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> > >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to > >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> meaning? > >> > >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, > >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you > >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> > >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the > >> barbarians. > >> > >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case > >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their > >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> > >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of > >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free > >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is > >> drawn. > >> > >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one > >> kind of adze? > >> > >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think > >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > >> danger to society? > >> > >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in > >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> > >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, > >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, > >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that > >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in > >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> > >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> > >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> > >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> > >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want > >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an > >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to > >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher > >> ed. > >> > >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> greatly appreciated! > >> > >> -Caitlin > >> > From peterfh46@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:44:40 2013 From: peterfh46@gmail.com (Peter Hourdequin) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 06:44:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4842649B-232B-4E4E-AAC5-D03C4E8D4E0D@gmail.com> Hello everyone, I`m new to this list, but finding it a very interesting discussion. I recently read James Wertsch`s excellent book, Voices of the Mind. He discusses Bahktin`s sense of ventriloquation extensively, and parses it similar to how Colin has characterized it. It`s close to the idea of speech genre I think. The idea is that we are using other people`s words when we speak because we are speaking within a sociocultural historical context that consists of certain genres of language and creates affordances for certain kinds of speech. I don't see a contradiction with Bahktin`s notion of dialogic communication as an earlier contributor suggested. Utterances can be made up of other people`s words and still be spoken dialogically. That is, they are spoken to an other, or to a self, or to both. I believe all the complexity of speech`s vetriloquation and its dialogicality would fall within Werstch`s category of multivocality. Peter On Oct 13, 2013, at 5:40 AM, C Barker wrote: > There is, of course, the risk that the term might suggest that the speaker is a 'dummy', which Bakhtin, I am sure, did not mean. I've always assumed he used the term to refer to the idea that much of what we speak is *other people's* words, and indeed often their style of speech too. > > A friend expressed a similar idea with the observation: "Be careful with words, you don't know whose mouth they've been in" > > Colin Barker > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ana Marjanovic-Shane [anamshane@gmail.com] > Sent: 12 October 2013 20:26 > To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) > > Dear Mike and all, > > The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" > > " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. > > I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". > > Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Neat, Doug. >> >> The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting >> and the dialogue a lot of fun. >> >> I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >> ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. >> >> Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this >> hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >> But I could well be mistaken. >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: >> >>> Hi-- >>> >>> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >>> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's >>> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >>> >>> >>> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >>> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people >>> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I >>> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though >>> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >>> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >>> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of >>> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs >>> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >>> >>> >>> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >>> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres >>> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in >>> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >>> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the >>> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >>> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought >>> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge >>> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as >>> it has turned these many years: >>> >>> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >>> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you >>> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more >>> creatively? >>> >>> >>> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >>> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >>> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >>> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few >>> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that >>> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >>> poets. >>> >>> >>> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do >>> with stories of long ago? >>> >>> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >>> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >>> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by >>> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >>> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >>> >>> >>> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense >>> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >>> >>> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >>> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >>> >>> >>> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's >>> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >>> >>> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >>> >>> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >>> weaving such webs? >>> >>> >>> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >>> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >>> >>> >>> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >>> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >>> >>> >>> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there >>> is no narrative there. >>> >>> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >>> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would >>> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >>> >>> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >>> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >>> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest >>> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, >>> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >>> >>> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >>> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the >>> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >>> >>> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >>> Internet, if I understand rightly. >>> >>> Plato. Surely not! >>> >>> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to >>> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange >>> term. >>> >>> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >>> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >>> >>> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >>> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children >>> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so >>> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of >>> crumbs they had left behind them. >>> >>> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to >>> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >>> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >>> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >>> meaning? >>> >>> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, >>> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >>> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you >>> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >>> >>> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >>> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the >>> barbarians. >>> >>> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case >>> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >>> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >>> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >>> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their >>> minds with lies and delusions? >>> >>> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of >>> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free >>> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is >>> drawn. >>> >>> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >>> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one >>> kind of adze? >>> >>> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think >>> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >>> >>> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >>> danger to society? >>> >>> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in >>> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >>> >>> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >>> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, >>> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, >>> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that >>> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in >>> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >>> >>> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >>> >>> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Doug >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >>> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >>> >>> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >>> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >>> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >>> >>> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want >>> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >>> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an >>> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to >>> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >>> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >>> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher >>> ed. >>> >>> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >>> greatly appreciated! >>> >>> -Caitlin >>> > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From peterfh46@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:44:40 2013 From: peterfh46@gmail.com (Peter Hourdequin) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 06:44:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4842649B-232B-4E4E-AAC5-D03C4E8D4E0D@gmail.com> Hello everyone, I`m new to this list, but finding it a very interesting discussion. I recently read James Wertsch`s excellent book, Voices of the Mind. He discusses Bahktin`s sense of ventriloquation extensively, and parses it similar to how Colin has characterized it. It`s close to the idea of speech genre I think. The idea is that we are using other people`s words when we speak because we are speaking within a sociocultural historical context that consists of certain genres of language and creates affordances for certain kinds of speech. I don't see a contradiction with Bahktin`s notion of dialogic communication as an earlier contributor suggested. Utterances can be made up of other people`s words and still be spoken dialogically. That is, they are spoken to an other, or to a self, or to both. I believe all the complexity of speech`s vetriloquation and its dialogicality would fall within Werstch`s category of multivocality. Peter On Oct 13, 2013, at 5:40 AM, C Barker wrote: > There is, of course, the risk that the term might suggest that the speaker is a 'dummy', which Bakhtin, I am sure, did not mean. I've always assumed he used the term to refer to the idea that much of what we speak is *other people's* words, and indeed often their style of speech too. > > A friend expressed a similar idea with the observation: "Be careful with words, you don't know whose mouth they've been in" > > Colin Barker > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ana Marjanovic-Shane [anamshane@gmail.com] > Sent: 12 October 2013 20:26 > To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) > > Dear Mike and all, > > The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" > > " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. > > I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". > > Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > mike cole wrote: > >> Neat, Doug. >> >> The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really interesting >> and the dialogue a lot of fun. >> >> I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >> ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. >> >> Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have this >> hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >> But I could well be mistaken. >> mike >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: >> >>> Hi-- >>> >>> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >>> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's >>> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >>> >>> >>> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >>> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people >>> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I >>> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even though >>> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >>> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >>> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate horror of >>> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter clubs >>> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >>> >>> >>> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >>> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call genres >>> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in >>> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >>> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the >>> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >>> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where thought >>> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge >>> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as >>> it has turned these many years: >>> >>> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >>> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose you >>> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think more >>> creatively? >>> >>> >>> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >>> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >>> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >>> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few >>> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune that >>> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >>> poets. >>> >>> >>> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do >>> with stories of long ago? >>> >>> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >>> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >>> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived by >>> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >>> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >>> >>> >>> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a sense >>> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >>> >>> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >>> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >>> >>> >>> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's >>> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >>> >>> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >>> >>> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >>> weaving such webs? >>> >>> >>> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >>> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >>> >>> >>> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >>> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >>> >>> >>> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But there >>> is no narrative there. >>> >>> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >>> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? Would >>> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >>> >>> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >>> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >>> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the latest >>> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably, >>> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >>> >>> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >>> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of the >>> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >>> >>> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >>> Internet, if I understand rightly. >>> >>> Plato. Surely not! >>> >>> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to >>> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange >>> term. >>> >>> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >>> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >>> >>> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >>> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children >>> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so >>> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of >>> crumbs they had left behind them. >>> >>> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to >>> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >>> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >>> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >>> meaning? >>> >>> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, >>> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >>> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you >>> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >>> >>> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >>> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the >>> barbarians. >>> >>> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case >>> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >>> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >>> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >>> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their >>> minds with lies and delusions? >>> >>> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of >>> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free >>> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is >>> drawn. >>> >>> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >>> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one >>> kind of adze? >>> >>> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think >>> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >>> >>> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >>> danger to society? >>> >>> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in >>> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >>> >>> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >>> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my ears, >>> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry is, >>> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know that >>> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will be in >>> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >>> >>> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >>> >>> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Doug >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >>> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >>> >>> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >>> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >>> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >>> >>> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I want >>> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >>> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) as an >>> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to >>> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >>> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >>> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to higher >>> ed. >>> >>> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >>> greatly appreciated! >>> >>> -Caitlin >>> > > "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Sat Oct 12 14:45:50 2013 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:45:50 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <1381598453.98351.YahooMailNeo@web164704.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doug - the entirety of your invented Plato's and Socrates' dialogue take me back to Gregory Bateson's "Why do Frenchmen", Daughter : Daddy, why do Frenchmen wave their arms about? with un soup?on de Montaigne. quite delicious. particularly this excerpt: Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft to navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very strange term. Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These children scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, so that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of crumbs they had left behind them. Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used to describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular meaning? Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much mistaken, it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of the barbarians. Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a case of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled their minds with lies and delusions? Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form of thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to free themselves from the limits of the story from which the word "breadcrumb" is drawn. many thanks! phillip Phillip White, PhD Urban Community Teacher Education Program Site Coordinator Montview Elementary, Aurora, CO phillip.white@ucdenver.edu or pawhite@aps.k12.co.us From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:45:09 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced the notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read it back out again. What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the original sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we are flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! mike On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike, > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him by > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which could > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as self-consciousness, > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if one > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices > living in an inner dialogue. > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > his dialogic principles? > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Mike and all, >> >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek >> meaning "to talk in the belly" >> >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). >> >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From >> the online etymological dictionary. >> >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the >> belly". >> >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Ana >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >Neat, Doug. >> > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really >> interesting >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. >> > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. >> > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have >> this >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one >> God. >> >But I could well be mistaken. >> >mike >> > >> > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams >> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi-- >> >> >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric >> Havelock's >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of >> people >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary >> worlds. I >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even >> though >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the >> audience: >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate >> horror of >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter >> clubs >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call >> genres >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available >> in >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all >> the >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where >> thought >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to >> emerge >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world >> as >> >> it has turned these many years: >> >> >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose >> you >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think >> more >> >> creatively? >> >> >> >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, >> few >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune >> that >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >> >> poets. >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to >> do >> >> with stories of long ago? >> >> >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be >> derived by >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a >> sense >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real >> world. >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a >> spider's >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such >> things? >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But >> there >> >> is no narrative there. >> >> >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? >> Would >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the >> latest >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most >> disreputably, >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of >> the >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft >> to >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very >> strange >> >> term. >> >> >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about >> "web" >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it >> mean? >> >> >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These >> children >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, >> so >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path >> of >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used >> to >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >> >> meaning? >> >> >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much >> mistaken, >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do >> you >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative >> of the >> >> barbarians. >> >> >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a >> case >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled >> their >> >> minds with lies and delusions? >> >> >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative >> form of >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to >> free >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word >> "breadcrumb" is >> >> drawn. >> >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had >> one >> >> kind of adze? >> >> >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to >> think >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >> >> danger to society? >> >> >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that >> in >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my >> ears, >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry >> is, >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know >> that >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will >> be in >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I >> want >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) >> as an >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation >> to >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to >> higher >> >> ed. >> >> >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> >> greatly appreciated! >> >> >> >> -Caitlin >> >> >> > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:45:09 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced the notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read it back out again. What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the original sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we are flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! mike On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Mike, > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him by > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which could > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as self-consciousness, > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if one > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices > living in an inner dialogue. > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > his dialogic principles? > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Mike and all, >> >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek >> meaning "to talk in the belly" >> >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). >> >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From >> the online etymological dictionary. >> >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the >> belly". >> >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. >> >> What do you think? >> >> Ana >> >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >> >Neat, Doug. >> > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really >> interesting >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. >> > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. >> > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have >> this >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one >> God. >> >But I could well be mistaken. >> >mike >> > >> > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams >> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi-- >> >> >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric >> Havelock's >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of >> people >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary >> worlds. I >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even >> though >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the >> audience: >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate >> horror of >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter >> clubs >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call >> genres >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available >> in >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all >> the >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where >> thought >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to >> emerge >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world >> as >> >> it has turned these many years: >> >> >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose >> you >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think >> more >> >> creatively? >> >> >> >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, >> few >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune >> that >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the >> >> poets. >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to >> do >> >> with stories of long ago? >> >> >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be >> derived by >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a >> sense >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real >> world. >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a >> spider's >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such >> things? >> >> >> >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But >> there >> >> is no narrative there. >> >> >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? >> Would >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the >> latest >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most >> disreputably, >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of >> the >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft >> to >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very >> strange >> >> term. >> >> >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about >> "web" >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it >> mean? >> >> >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These >> children >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, >> so >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path >> of >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used >> to >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular >> >> meaning? >> >> >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much >> mistaken, >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do >> you >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative >> of the >> >> barbarians. >> >> >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a >> case >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled >> their >> >> minds with lies and delusions? >> >> >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative >> form of >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to >> free >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word >> "breadcrumb" is >> >> drawn. >> >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had >> one >> >> kind of adze? >> >> >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to >> think >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a >> >> danger to society? >> >> >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that >> in >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my >> ears, >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry >> is, >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know >> that >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will >> be in >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I >> want >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) >> as an >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation >> to >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to >> higher >> >> ed. >> >> >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> >> greatly appreciated! >> >> >> >> -Caitlin >> >> >> > > > From alefstein@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:53:32 2013 From: alefstein@gmail.com (Adam Lefstein) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 00:53:32 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work, while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. Hope this helps, adam On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced the > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > it back out again. > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the original > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we are > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him > by > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which > could > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as > self-consciousness, > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if > one > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > his dialogic principles? > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > >> > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > >> > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > >> > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling > sort > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From > >> the online etymological dictionary. > >> > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying > to > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in > the > >> belly". > >> > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Ana > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >> >Neat, Doug. > >> > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > >> interesting > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >> > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >> > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have > >> this > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one > >> God. > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > >> >mike > >> > > >> > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi-- > >> >> > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > >> Havelock's > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of > thought > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > >> people > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > >> worlds. I > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > >> though > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > >> audience: > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > >> horror of > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > >> clubs > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of > view, > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > >> genres > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available > >> in > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means > to > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all > >> the > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > >> thought > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to > >> emerge > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the > world > >> as > >> >> it has turned these many years: > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which > can > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose > >> you > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to > think > >> more > >> >> creatively? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, > >> few > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune > >> that > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by > the > >> >> poets. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to > >> do > >> >> with stories of long ago? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of > the > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > >> derived by > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to > imaginary > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > >> sense > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a > spider's > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real > >> world. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > >> spider's > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> >> weaving such webs? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > >> things? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But > >> there > >> >> is no narrative there. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose > I > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? > >> Would > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > >> latest > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > >> disreputably, > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should > describe > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds > of > >> the > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of > craft > >> to > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > >> strange > >> >> term. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > >> "web" > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it > >> mean? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > >> children > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a > forest, > >> so > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path > >> of > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is > used > >> to > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> >> meaning? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > >> mistaken, > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do > >> you > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a > signifier > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative > >> of the > >> >> barbarians. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a > >> case > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable > to > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story > about > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled > >> their > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > >> form of > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to > >> free > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > >> "breadcrumb" is > >> >> drawn. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know > such > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had > >> one > >> >> kind of adze? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > >> think > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not > always a > >> >> danger to society? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that > >> in > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of > the > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my > >> ears, > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that > poetry > >> is, > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know > >> that > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will > >> be in > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Doug > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> >> > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. > I > >> want > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > and > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > >> as an > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > >> to > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > and > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > >> higher > >> >> ed. > >> >> > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> >> greatly appreciated! > >> >> > >> >> -Caitlin > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > -- Adam Lefstein From alefstein@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 14:53:32 2013 From: alefstein@gmail.com (Adam Lefstein) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 00:53:32 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work, while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. Hope this helps, adam On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced the > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > it back out again. > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the original > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we are > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him > by > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which > could > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as > self-consciousness, > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if > one > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > his dialogic principles? > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > >> > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > >> > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > >> > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling > sort > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From > >> the online etymological dictionary. > >> > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying > to > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in > the > >> belly". > >> > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Ana > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >> >Neat, Doug. > >> > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > >> interesting > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >> > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >> > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have > >> this > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one > >> God. > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > >> >mike > >> > > >> > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi-- > >> >> > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > >> Havelock's > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of > thought > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > >> people > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > >> worlds. I > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > >> though > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > >> audience: > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > >> horror of > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > >> clubs > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of > view, > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > >> genres > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available > >> in > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means > to > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all > >> the > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > >> thought > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to > >> emerge > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the > world > >> as > >> >> it has turned these many years: > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which > can > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose > >> you > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to > think > >> more > >> >> creatively? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, > >> few > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune > >> that > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by > the > >> >> poets. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to > >> do > >> >> with stories of long ago? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of > the > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > >> derived by > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to > imaginary > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > >> sense > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a > spider's > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real > >> world. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > >> spider's > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> >> weaving such webs? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > >> things? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But > >> there > >> >> is no narrative there. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose > I > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? > >> Would > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > >> latest > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > >> disreputably, > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should > describe > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds > of > >> the > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of > craft > >> to > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > >> strange > >> >> term. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > >> "web" > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it > >> mean? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > >> children > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a > forest, > >> so > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path > >> of > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is > used > >> to > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> >> meaning? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > >> mistaken, > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do > >> you > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a > signifier > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative > >> of the > >> >> barbarians. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a > >> case > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable > to > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story > about > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled > >> their > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > >> form of > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to > >> free > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > >> "breadcrumb" is > >> >> drawn. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know > such > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had > >> one > >> >> kind of adze? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > >> think > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not > always a > >> >> danger to society? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that > >> in > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of > the > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my > >> ears, > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that > poetry > >> is, > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know > >> that > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will > >> be in > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Doug > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> >> > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. > I > >> want > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > and > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > >> as an > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > >> to > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > and > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > >> higher > >> >> ed. > >> >> > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> >> greatly appreciated! > >> >> > >> >> -Caitlin > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > -- Adam Lefstein From adammekrut@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 16:20:11 2013 From: adammekrut@gmail.com (Adam Mekrut) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 16:20:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please unsubscribe me from this email list. Thank you. On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Adam Lefstein wrote: > Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, > I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of > "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. > 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): > > Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work, > while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the > different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language > without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or > completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve > all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from > which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, > as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less > materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. > > Hope this helps, > adam > > > On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > > > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced > the > > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > > it back out again. > > > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the > original > > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we > are > > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him > > by > > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly > states > > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which > > could > > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of > the > > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as > > self-consciousness, > > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice > of > > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if > > one > > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two > voices > > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. > 73). > > > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > > his dialogic principles? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > > >> > > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > > >> > > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > >> > > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling > > sort > > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or > (more > > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so > called > > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that > this > > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." > From > > >> the online etymological dictionary. > > >> > > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or > replying > > to > > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in > > the > > >> belly". > > >> > > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > >> > > >> What do you think? > > >> > > >> Ana > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> >Neat, Doug. > > >> > > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > > >> interesting > > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > >> > > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > >> > > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I > have > > >> this > > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a > one > > >> God. > > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > > >> >mike > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Hi-- > > >> >> > > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > > >> Havelock's > > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of > > thought > > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > > >> people > > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > > >> worlds. I > > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > > >> though > > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > > >> audience: > > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the > audience > > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > > >> horror of > > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > > >> clubs > > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of > > view, > > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > > >> genres > > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools > available > > >> in > > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means > > to > > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and > all > > >> the > > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and > activity > > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > > >> thought > > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were > to > > >> emerge > > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the > > world > > >> as > > >> >> it has turned these many years: > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which > > can > > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But > suppose > > >> you > > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to > > think > > >> more > > >> >> creatively? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts > of > > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once > entered, > > >> few > > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good > fortune > > >> that > > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by > > the > > >> >> poets. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing > to > > >> do > > >> >> with stories of long ago? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of > > the > > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking > for > > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > > >> derived by > > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to > > imaginary > > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > > >> sense > > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a > > spider's > > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the > real > > >> world. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > > >> spider's > > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable > of > > >> >> weaving such webs? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know > of > > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > > >> things? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe > the > > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. > But > > >> there > > >> >> is no narrative there. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But > suppose > > I > > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative > context? > > >> Would > > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, > which > > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > > >> latest > > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > > >> disreputably, > > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should > > describe > > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds > > of > > >> the > > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of > > craft > > >> to > > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > > >> strange > > >> >> term. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > > >> "web" > > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does > it > > >> mean? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > > >> children > > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a > > forest, > > >> so > > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the > path > > >> of > > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is > > used > > >> to > > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which > one > > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in > the > > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its > particular > > >> >> meaning? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > > >> mistaken, > > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What > do > > >> you > > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a > > signifier > > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this > narrative > > >> of the > > >> >> barbarians. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is > it a > > >> case > > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and > unable > > to > > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story > > about > > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is > this > > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who > filled > > >> their > > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > > >> form of > > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able > to > > >> free > > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > > >> "breadcrumb" is > > >> >> drawn. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know > > such > > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he > had > > >> one > > >> >> kind of adze? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > > >> think > > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not > > always a > > >> >> danger to society? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede > that > > >> in > > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of > > the > > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in > my > > >> ears, > > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that > > poetry > > >> is, > > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I > know > > >> that > > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives > will > > >> be in > > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > > >> >> > > >> >> Regards, > > >> >> Doug > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with > Andrew > > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > >> >> > > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of > play/seriousness. > > I > > >> want > > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > > and > > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit > review) > > >> as an > > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this > conversation > > >> to > > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, > Kierkegaard > > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > > and > > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > >> higher > > >> >> ed. > > >> >> > > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would > be > > >> >> greatly appreciated! > > >> >> > > >> >> -Caitlin > > >> >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Adam Lefstein > -- *ADAM PHILIP **MEKRUT * 949.683.5843 adammekrut@gmail.com Twitter LinkedIn Portfolio From adammekrut@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 16:20:11 2013 From: adammekrut@gmail.com (Adam Mekrut) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 16:20:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please unsubscribe me from this email list. Thank you. On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Adam Lefstein wrote: > Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, > I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of > "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. > 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): > > Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work, > while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the > different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language > without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or > completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve > all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from > which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, > as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less > materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. > > Hope this helps, > adam > > > On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > > > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced > the > > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > > it back out again. > > > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the > original > > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we > are > > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him > > by > > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly > states > > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which > > could > > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of > the > > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as > > self-consciousness, > > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice > of > > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if > > one > > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two > voices > > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. > 73). > > > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > > his dialogic principles? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > > >> > > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > > >> > > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > >> > > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling > > sort > > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or > (more > > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so > called > > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that > this > > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." > From > > >> the online etymological dictionary. > > >> > > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or > replying > > to > > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in > > the > > >> belly". > > >> > > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > >> > > >> What do you think? > > >> > > >> Ana > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> >Neat, Doug. > > >> > > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > > >> interesting > > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > >> > > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > >> > > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I > have > > >> this > > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a > one > > >> God. > > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > > >> >mike > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Hi-- > > >> >> > > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > > >> Havelock's > > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of > > thought > > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > > >> people > > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > > >> worlds. I > > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > > >> though > > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > > >> audience: > > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the > audience > > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > > >> horror of > > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > > >> clubs > > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of > > view, > > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > > >> genres > > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools > available > > >> in > > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means > > to > > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and > all > > >> the > > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and > activity > > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > > >> thought > > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were > to > > >> emerge > > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the > > world > > >> as > > >> >> it has turned these many years: > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which > > can > > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But > suppose > > >> you > > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to > > think > > >> more > > >> >> creatively? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts > of > > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once > entered, > > >> few > > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good > fortune > > >> that > > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by > > the > > >> >> poets. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing > to > > >> do > > >> >> with stories of long ago? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of > > the > > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking > for > > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > > >> derived by > > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to > > imaginary > > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > > >> sense > > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a > > spider's > > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the > real > > >> world. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > > >> spider's > > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable > of > > >> >> weaving such webs? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know > of > > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > > >> things? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe > the > > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. > But > > >> there > > >> >> is no narrative there. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But > suppose > > I > > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative > context? > > >> Would > > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, > which > > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > > >> latest > > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > > >> disreputably, > > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should > > describe > > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds > > of > > >> the > > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of > > craft > > >> to > > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > > >> strange > > >> >> term. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > > >> "web" > > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does > it > > >> mean? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > > >> children > > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a > > forest, > > >> so > > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the > path > > >> of > > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is > > used > > >> to > > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which > one > > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in > the > > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its > particular > > >> >> meaning? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > > >> mistaken, > > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What > do > > >> you > > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a > > signifier > > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this > narrative > > >> of the > > >> >> barbarians. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is > it a > > >> case > > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and > unable > > to > > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story > > about > > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is > this > > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who > filled > > >> their > > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > > >> form of > > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able > to > > >> free > > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > > >> "breadcrumb" is > > >> >> drawn. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know > > such > > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he > had > > >> one > > >> >> kind of adze? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > > >> think > > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not > > always a > > >> >> danger to society? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede > that > > >> in > > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of > > the > > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in > my > > >> ears, > > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that > > poetry > > >> is, > > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I > know > > >> that > > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives > will > > >> be in > > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > > >> >> > > >> >> Regards, > > >> >> Doug > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with > Andrew > > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > >> >> > > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of > play/seriousness. > > I > > >> want > > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > > and > > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit > review) > > >> as an > > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this > conversation > > >> to > > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, > Kierkegaard > > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > > and > > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > >> higher > > >> >> ed. > > >> >> > > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would > be > > >> >> greatly appreciated! > > >> >> > > >> >> -Caitlin > > >> >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Adam Lefstein > -- *ADAM PHILIP **MEKRUT * 949.683.5843 adammekrut@gmail.com Twitter LinkedIn Portfolio From sukantamajumdar@aim.com Sat Oct 12 23:21:36 2013 From: sukantamajumdar@aim.com (Sukanta Majumdar) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 02:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Leontyev's activities In-Reply-To: <1376330299002.45087158@boxbe> References: <5202B8CC.3040502@mira.net><52030FD3.5010807@mira.net> <520444BA.2000808@mira.net><520460F0.5030506@mira.net>, <19E63C50-A0D2-4A0F-BBA7-63853414FDAA@gmail.com> <1376330299002.45087158@boxbe> Message-ID: <8D095F39A49B639-E9C-23436@webmail-d214.sysops.aol.com> Hello Will anybody in this group kindly tell me what is the basic difference among Activity theory, Cognitive Psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field Theory? I am not from Psychology background, but interested to learn about these for human activity purposes. Sukanta Majumdar, PhD Assistant Professor School of Planning and Architecture, Bhopal Transit Campus: MANIT campus, Sports Complex, Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, India 462051. sukantamajumdar@aim.com sukanta@spabhopal.ac.in www.spabhopal.ac.in Mo. No: +91-9479910018. Ph. No: +91-755-2670910-ext 238. Fax No: +91-755-2670908. From amendelson@berkeley.edu Sun Oct 13 01:52:08 2013 From: amendelson@berkeley.edu (Adam Mendelson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 01:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3AB46F8F718E423F93B273D4E6EF54CF@AdamNetbook> Hi all, my 2 cents on ventriloquism based on a wonderful course I did with Mike, Sarah Freedman, and Kris Gutierez a few years back: In Discourse in the Novel I do think that Bakhtin implies that the speaker is a dummy when they are ventriloquating. I understand ventrioquism as a very specific type of heteroglossia in which an authoritative discourse has also become internally persuasive. When an individuals' utterances fully embrace and reproduce institutionalized discourses, they have no voice of their own. I think Goffman's production format provides a parallel metaphor. When an individual is only the animator of his or her words, not the author nor the principal, he or she is ventriloquating. Just like a dummy. Adam -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of C Barker Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 1:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy There is, of course, the risk that the term might suggest that the speaker is a 'dummy', which Bakhtin, I am sure, did not mean. I've always assumed he used the term to refer to the idea that much of what we speak is *other people's* words, and indeed often their style of speech too. A friend expressed a similar idea with the observation: "Be careful with words, you don't know whose mouth they've been in" Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ana Marjanovic-Shane [anamshane@gmail.com] Sent: 12 October 2013 20:26 To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Dear Mike and all, The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. What do you think? Ana mike cole wrote: >Neat, Doug. > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really >interesting and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have >this hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >But I could well be mistaken. >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > >> Hi-- >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric >> Havelock's Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of >> thought through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply >> suspicious of people becoming possessed, literally, by the >> attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I think he views imaginary >> narrative as suspect always, because even though it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate >> horror of horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in >> Harry Potter clubs ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of >> view, access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might >> call genres of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual >> tools available in the external world that arm the proto-sentient >> being with the means to comprehend society, culture, genres of >> thought and activity, and all the other things that internalizing the >> patterns of language and activity around us make available to our own >> use. Ventriloquizing is where thought begins. As Socrates might say, >> in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge out of the shadows of a >> cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as it has turned these many years: >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which >> can trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But >> suppose you have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free >> someone to think more creatively? >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, >> few have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good >> fortune that this modern age has so many who are free from the evils >> created by the poets. >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to >> do with stories of long ago? >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of >> the foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking >> for oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be >> derived by devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than >> to imaginary worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a >> sense of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a >> spider's web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a >> spider's web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But >> there is no narrative there. >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose >> I find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative >> context? Would you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the >> latest posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most >> disreputably, they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should >> describe such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on >> the minds of the living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of >> craft to navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a >> very strange term. >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These >> children scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through >> a forest, so that they could find their way home again by returning >> along the path of crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is >> used to describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from >> which one started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the >> word in the context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" >> its particular meaning? >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much >> mistaken, it appears that the knowledge of this story was >> specifically the inspiration for crafting this particular kind of >> technology. What do you think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a >> signifier representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this >> narrative of the barbarians. >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a >> case of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and >> unable to think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a >> story about children who never existed to craft a way of doing >> things? Or is this modern era filled with victims of their foolish >> ancestors, who filled their minds with lies and delusions? >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative >> form of thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be >> able to free themselves from the limits of the story from which the >> word "breadcrumb" is drawn. >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know >> such stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he >> had one kind of adze? >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to >> think with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always >> a danger to society? >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that >> in some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of >> the flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in >> my ears, and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me >> that poetry is, after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other >> gift. And I know that anything more which you will say against the >> value of narratives will be in vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> Regards, >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. >> I want to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in >> higher ed and envision this particular project (it's a relatively >> short lit review) as an analysis of the historical context that has >> allowed this conversation to happen in academia. At this point, I >> plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've >> also been introduced to Vygotsky and Kendall Walton. The main >> challenge is bridging the conversation to higher ed. >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> greatly appreciated! >> >> -Caitlin >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From amendelson@berkeley.edu Sun Oct 13 01:52:08 2013 From: amendelson@berkeley.edu (Adam Mendelson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 01:52:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy In-Reply-To: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> References: <43D64DEFED150742AAEBE9D668275880D0C04DFA@EXMB2.ad.mmu.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3AB46F8F718E423F93B273D4E6EF54CF@AdamNetbook> Hi all, my 2 cents on ventriloquism based on a wonderful course I did with Mike, Sarah Freedman, and Kris Gutierez a few years back: In Discourse in the Novel I do think that Bakhtin implies that the speaker is a dummy when they are ventriloquating. I understand ventrioquism as a very specific type of heteroglossia in which an authoritative discourse has also become internally persuasive. When an individuals' utterances fully embrace and reproduce institutionalized discourses, they have no voice of their own. I think Goffman's production format provides a parallel metaphor. When an individual is only the animator of his or her words, not the author nor the principal, he or she is ventriloquating. Just like a dummy. Adam -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of C Barker Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 1:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: ventriloquy There is, of course, the risk that the term might suggest that the speaker is a 'dummy', which Bakhtin, I am sure, did not mean. I've always assumed he used the term to refer to the idea that much of what we speak is *other people's* words, and indeed often their style of speech too. A friend expressed a similar idea with the observation: "Be careful with words, you don't know whose mouth they've been in" Colin Barker ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ana Marjanovic-Shane [anamshane@gmail.com] Sent: 12 October 2013 20:26 To: Mike Cole; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Cc: Eugene Matusov; xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) Dear Mike and all, The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek meaning "to talk in the belly" " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From the online etymological dictionary. I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the belly". Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. What do you think? Ana mike cole wrote: >Neat, Doug. > >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really >interesting and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have >this hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one God. >But I could well be mistaken. >mike > > >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > >> Hi-- >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric >> Havelock's Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. >> >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of >> thought through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply >> suspicious of people becoming possessed, literally, by the >> attractiveness of imaginary worlds. I think he views imaginary >> narrative as suspect always, because even though it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the audience: >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate >> horror of horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in >> Harry Potter clubs ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. >> >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of >> view, access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might >> call genres of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual >> tools available in the external world that arm the proto-sentient >> being with the means to comprehend society, culture, genres of >> thought and activity, and all the other things that internalizing the >> patterns of language and activity around us make available to our own >> use. Ventriloquizing is where thought begins. As Socrates might say, >> in dialogue with Plato, if he were to emerge out of the shadows of a >> cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world as it has turned these many years: >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which >> can trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But >> suppose you have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free >> someone to think more creatively? >> >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, >> few have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good >> fortune that this modern age has so many who are free from the evils >> created by the poets. >> >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to >> do with stories of long ago? >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of >> the foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking >> for oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be >> derived by devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than >> to imaginary worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." >> >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a >> sense of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a >> spider's web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real world. >> >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a >> spider's web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of >> weaving such webs? >> >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such things? >> >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? >> >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But >> there is no narrative there. >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose >> I find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative >> context? Would you agree that narratives might be tools, too? >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the >> latest posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most >> disreputably, they selected not history, but arrant lies. >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should >> describe such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on >> the minds of the living, but of the future. Most terrible! >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of >> Internet, if I understand rightly. >> >> Plato. Surely not! >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of >> craft to navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a >> very strange term. >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about "web" >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it mean? >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These >> children scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through >> a forest, so that they could find their way home again by returning >> along the path of crumbs they had left behind them. >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is >> used to describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from >> which one started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the >> word in the context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" >> its particular meaning? >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much >> mistaken, it appears that the knowledge of this story was >> specifically the inspiration for crafting this particular kind of >> technology. What do you think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a >> signifier representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this >> narrative of the barbarians. >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a >> case of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and >> unable to think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a >> story about children who never existed to craft a way of doing >> things? Or is this modern era filled with victims of their foolish >> ancestors, who filled their minds with lies and delusions? >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative >> form of thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be >> able to free themselves from the limits of the story from which the >> word "breadcrumb" is drawn. >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know >> such stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he >> had one kind of adze? >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to >> think with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always >> a danger to society? >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that >> in some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of >> the flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in >> my ears, and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me >> that poetry is, after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other >> gift. And I know that anything more which you will say against the >> value of narratives will be in vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. >> >> Regards, >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. >> I want to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in >> higher ed and envision this particular project (it's a relatively >> short lit review) as an analysis of the historical context that has >> allowed this conversation to happen in academia. At this point, I >> plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've >> also been introduced to Vygotsky and Kendall Walton. The main >> challenge is bridging the conversation to higher ed. >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be >> greatly appreciated! >> >> -Caitlin >> "Before acting on this email or opening any attachments you should read the Manchester Metropolitan University email disclaimer available on its website http://www.mmu.ac.uk/emaildisclaimer " From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 08:33:20 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 09:33:20 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] searching the archives? Message-ID: Bruce J and others, Seems like there was a discusison about Bakhtin and ventriloquism some time ago but I couldn't find it with a google search. So I am just wondering if there is a way to search the XMCA archives? I have traditionally just used google and put XMCA as the first term. But it would be nice to be able to conduct searches within the archive itself so I don't have to sort out the non-XMCA stuff (interesting as it might be). When I go to either here: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/index.html or here: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ I can't find anywhere or anyway to search the archives. Any suggestions would be appreciated. -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 09:01:53 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:01:53 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Caitlin, Be careful not to give too short shrift to the overzealous grad student who bulldozes her colleagues during a debate. I think there is probably a lot more at play here than what you might imagine. For example, it could be that she has different cultural understandings about "what is play?" (cf. Gregory Bateson - and be sure to check out his "The message "This is play"'?" essay in the difficult to find Group Processes - it is critical! As is his Theory of Play and Fantasy). I know many people that see intense argumentation as a form of play (Deborah Schiffrin's paper on Jewish argument is a nice piece to help think about the culturally specific nature of the "metapragmatics of play" http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4167542?uid=3739928&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102768046393- but see also Stanton Wortham's work on local metapramatic models (I think he uses the term "metapragmatic regimentation" to capture what Bateson was after) and also R. Keith Sawyer's work on the cultural construction of local "frames"). In Bateson's piece, he describes monkeys and otters (he referred to both in different places) at the zoo and how they send a message "this is play". This message makes it possible for them to engage in kinds of behavior that would otherwise be seen as seriously threatening, such as fighting. In human life, the metalinguistic work that conveys the message "this is play" is very contingent upon the communities of practice with which we are most familiar. So, what makes you think that the "bulldozing overzealous graduate student" isn't just playing around? I mean that in all seriousness.* I appreciate your interest in opening play to something different from how we normally think of it (e.g., as strictly opposed to "seriousness"). But at the same time, I wonder if you might be heading down a slippery slope in which play can be anything. I suspect my question of "opposition" may have been taken differently than intended. To clarify, I was simply suggesting that if "play" is going to be a useful category for understanding the world around us, then one would need to say what it is. One way of saying what something is is by saying what it is not. This is what I meant by "what does it oppose?" Put slightly differently, if you take the position that everything is play, then the sun setting, a baby crying, the bombing of Hiroshima, all of these things in themselves would be play. That doesn't make much sense to me. Would you agree? If those things are not play, then "what is play?" (or, alternatively, "what is not play?"). -greg *and we could, of course, ask this very question of this email: is this an instance of me being a bit too serious with you? (and as a public display - all the more vain of me). Or Is this play? Maybe we could polls the XMCA community of those who read this? And what if they said that it sounded too serious and yet I said that I MEANT it playfully? Or vice-versa? What would it mean? How do we know if it is play or not? On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:59 PM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > Thanks everyone for the positive feedback and great ideas! It's been really > helpful for me and I think I've been more able to mentally conceptualize > where I'm going. If this remains interesting, please continue to provide > feedback and ideas! > > Greg-- Play as informal conversation is great verbiage...that gives me some > direction. Let's say informal, intellectually adventurous conversation. So, > I think you've hit the nail on the head...but I want to be careful to not > describe play as in opposition to seriousness. In fact, using Plato's > conceptualizations of play, I want to argue that the inability to play (due > to lack of practice in childhood, I suppose) is precisely what hinders > those strange and serious characters from engaging fully/creatively in > academia. For example, I think of the overzealous grad student who > bulldozes his colleagues during a debate or the uninspired post doc who is > too hard on herself when a project isn't going completely according to > plan. These people are successful insofar as they've arrived at a certain > selective/impressive place (definite snaps to that)...still, I would argue > that they would benefit from being intellectually playful/adventurous so > they can produce serious and creative work that is responsive to their > given context (empathy learned from play in childhood). So, a playful > attitude, I will submit, results in serious (and higher quality!) academic > work. > > How does that sound? I suppose I don't think play is in opposition to > anything... > > -C. > > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > Caitlin, > > > > I find it fascinating that you are interested in studying play in the > stage > > of ADULTHOOD. And more fascinating that you would look in the peculiar > > adulthood stage that is filled with those strange and serious characters > > called "academics". > > > > Did I get that right? Something about putting play (informal > conversation?) > > back into academia? > > > > If so, I say "YES"! but am not sure quite how to help... > > > > Or maybe, first, I should ask: what is "play" in adulthood? > > > > Defining by opposition, what does it oppose? > > Work? > > Seriousness? > > Something else? > > > > What do you think? > > > > playfully, > > greg > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:34 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu > > >wrote: > > > > > Thanks for your responses. A little more about the project: it's > > definitely > > > rooted in a strong experiential piece (I've noticed that kids who grew > up > > > in hyper-structured environments seem to lack empathy, appropriate > debate > > > skills, etc once they get to college. Also, more kids seem to grow up > in > > > these hyper-structured environments...at least in the middle class > > > [Lareau]. Further, this is often discussed in informal settings like > TED > > > talks [Ken Robinson, free range children]) coupled with a theoretical, > > > academic piece. > > > > > > My background is in philosophy--so I'm most immediately drawn to the > > > theorists I mentioned in my initial post. My idea with this project is > to > > > trace the history of conceptualizations of play in academia to > illustrate > > > the context of this more colloquial conversation that happens on TED > > talks > > > and the like. I will also include "examples" to ground the theoretical > > > aspect...illustrations of play in Novalis' Novices of Sais and an essay > > on > > > play/identity formation by CD Wright, for example. Ultimately, the goal > > > will be to bring the informal conversation (back) into academia. > > > > > > Long story short, I'm not quite sure where this will go yet. But I > > suspect > > > that the nature of the project might allow some room to incorporate a > few > > > conceptualizations of play, as long as they lead to this central idea > of > > > play as necessarily leading to productivity. > > > > > > As a disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to read Vygotsky yet...in > fact, I > > > just received the email that it has arrived in the library. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Greg Thompson < > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Caitlin, > > > > Maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by "play"? > > > > I suspect that you may be talking about an ontogenetically different > > > thing > > > > from what is at the heart of Vygotsky's work (that's not to say that > > the > > > > two are unrelated, simply that some elaboration is needed...). > > > > -greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 11:05 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > > cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > > > > foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with > Andrew > > > > > Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > > > > > > > > > Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of > play/seriousness. > > I > > > > want > > > > > to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > > and > > > > > envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit > review) > > > as > > > > an > > > > > analysis of the historical context that has allowed this > conversation > > > to > > > > > happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, > Kierkegaard > > > > > (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > > and > > > > > Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > > higher > > > > > ed. > > > > > > > > > > Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would > be > > > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > > > > > -Caitlin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > > > Department of Anthropology > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > > > Brigham Young University > > > > Provo, UT 84602 > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 11:38:49 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 11:38:49 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Ulvi's question about 5th D in Turkey Message-ID: Hi Ulvi-- I got in touch with Figen Karadai. Here is what she sent me showing how the germ cell of the 5th dimension has infected the practices at Maltepe University. :-)) Others might be interested in the site for its content as well. http://soyacnew.maltepe.edu.tr/?lang=tr mike From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 11:50:00 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:50:00 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: searching the archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=site%3Alchc.ucsd.edu%2Fmca%2F++Bakhtin+and+ventriloquism Or ask if you want to know how to do it using unix. Huw On 13 October 2013 16:33, Greg Thompson wrote: > Bruce J and others, > Seems like there was a discusison about Bakhtin and ventriloquism some time > ago but I couldn't find it with a google search. > > So I am just wondering if there is a way to search the XMCA archives? > I have traditionally just used google and put XMCA as the first term. But > it would be nice to be able to conduct searches within the archive itself > so I don't have to sort out the non-XMCA stuff (interesting as it might > be). > > When I go to either here: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/index.html > or here: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > I can't find anywhere or anyway to search the archives. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > -greg > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From anamshane@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 12:06:47 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 15:06:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Adam, Thank you for bringing this up! This very interesting paragraph has been interpreted by Deborah Tannen! She provides both some clues that the term "ventriloquate" was first used by Bakhtin's translators, and also a very dialogic interpretation of this paragraph. Here is a longer quote from her paper: Tannen, D. (2009). Abduction, Dialogicality and Prior Text: The Taking on of Voices in Conversational Discourse. Paper presented at the 84th annual meeting of the Linguistic Society of America, Baltimore, MD. "Interestingly, the idea of distancing is the source of the term "ventriloquize." It derives from Bakhtin's use of the term "ventriloquate." However, Bubnova and Malcuzynski (2001) explain that "ventriloquate" is actually the innovation of Bakhtin's translators.3 The passage in which the term appears in English (Bakhtin [1975]1981:299) actually reads, in their more literal translation from the original Russian, "the language through which the author speaks is more densified, objectified, as if it would appear to be at a certain distance from his lips." I particularly like the phrase "at a certain distance from his lips," because one of the effects in conversational discourse of what I call ventriloquizing -- or more generally the taking on of voices -- is precisely to make the words spoken appear to be at a certain distance from the speaker's lips, in the sense of distancing the speaker from responsibility for an utterance." (p. 6) For Tannen, the focus is not so much of the "animation" of the receiving "dummy" (other), but on the distancing of the author form the "responsibility of an utterance". I interpret this as an act of creating an imaginary character whose voice the author creates, in order to do something to it. In the next two paragraphs Tannen confirms this interpretation: "The taking on of voices, then, is a resource by which speakers negotiate relative connection and power, because it allows them to introduce a persona, then borrow characteristics associated with that persona, to, for example, downplay the relative hierarchy between themselves and interlocutors or create closeness with interlocutors or with those whose personas they reference. Put another way, I will propose that "the taking on voices" describes a discursive strategy by which meaning results from the relationship between current and previously experienced discourse. I'll demonstrate that by taking on voices, speakers create personas then borrow characteristics associated with those personas to negotiate the ambiguous and polysemous dynamics of connection and power." (pp 6-7, italics by me (Ana)). I think that Tannen's "introducing a persona" by "taking on a voice" is important for a deeper analyses of play because it provides a perspective on the relationship between the author/actor and the character/persona s/he plays. What is even more important and rarely taken into account in the research and analyses of play, is the use of this "persona" to change the relationships between the actual interlocutors (players). Thus, even if we call the whole process "ventriloquation", it has a very special meaning of changing the relationships between the people in a dialogue. What do you think? Ana PS -- See the attached Tannen's paper. On Oct 12, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Adam Lefstein wrote: > Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, > I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): > > Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work, while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. > > Hope this helps, > adam > > > On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced the > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > it back out again. > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the original > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we are > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him by > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which could > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as self-consciousness, > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if one > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > his dialogic principles? > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > >> > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > >> > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > >> > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From > >> the online etymological dictionary. > >> > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the > >> belly". > >> > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Ana > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >> >Neat, Doug. > >> > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > >> interesting > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >> > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >> > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have > >> this > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one > >> God. > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > >> >mike > >> > > >> > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi-- > >> >> > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > >> Havelock's > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > >> people > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > >> worlds. I > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > >> though > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > >> audience: > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > >> horror of > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > >> clubs > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > >> genres > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available > >> in > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all > >> the > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > >> thought > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to > >> emerge > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world > >> as > >> >> it has turned these many years: > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose > >> you > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think > >> more > >> >> creatively? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, > >> few > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune > >> that > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > >> >> poets. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to > >> do > >> >> with stories of long ago? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > >> derived by > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > >> sense > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real > >> world. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > >> spider's > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> >> weaving such webs? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > >> things? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But > >> there > >> >> is no narrative there. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? > >> Would > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > >> latest > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > >> disreputably, > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of > >> the > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft > >> to > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > >> strange > >> >> term. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > >> "web" > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it > >> mean? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > >> children > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, > >> so > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path > >> of > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used > >> to > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> >> meaning? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > >> mistaken, > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do > >> you > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative > >> of the > >> >> barbarians. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a > >> case > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled > >> their > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > >> form of > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to > >> free > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > >> "breadcrumb" is > >> >> drawn. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had > >> one > >> >> kind of adze? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > >> think > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > >> >> danger to society? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that > >> in > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my > >> ears, > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry > >> is, > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know > >> that > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will > >> be in > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Doug > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> >> > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > >> want > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > >> as an > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > >> to > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > >> higher > >> >> ed. > >> >> > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> >> greatly appreciated! > >> >> > >> >> -Caitlin > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Adam Lefstein From anamshane@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 12:06:47 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 15:06:47 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Adam, Thank you for bringing this up! This very interesting paragraph has been interpreted by Deborah Tannen! She provides both some clues that the term "ventriloquate" was first used by Bakhtin's translators, and also a very dialogic interpretation of this paragraph. Here is a longer quote from her paper: Tannen, D. (2009). Abduction, Dialogicality and Prior Text: The Taking on of Voices in Conversational Discourse. Paper presented at the 84th annual meeting of the Linguistic Society of America, Baltimore, MD. "Interestingly, the idea of distancing is the source of the term "ventriloquize." It derives from Bakhtin's use of the term "ventriloquate." However, Bubnova and Malcuzynski (2001) explain that "ventriloquate" is actually the innovation of Bakhtin's translators.3 The passage in which the term appears in English (Bakhtin [1975]1981:299) actually reads, in their more literal translation from the original Russian, "the language through which the author speaks is more densified, objectified, as if it would appear to be at a certain distance from his lips." I particularly like the phrase "at a certain distance from his lips," because one of the effects in conversational discourse of what I call ventriloquizing -- or more generally the taking on of voices -- is precisely to make the words spoken appear to be at a certain distance from the speaker's lips, in the sense of distancing the speaker from responsibility for an utterance." (p. 6) For Tannen, the focus is not so much of the "animation" of the receiving "dummy" (other), but on the distancing of the author form the "responsibility of an utterance". I interpret this as an act of creating an imaginary character whose voice the author creates, in order to do something to it. In the next two paragraphs Tannen confirms this interpretation: "The taking on of voices, then, is a resource by which speakers negotiate relative connection and power, because it allows them to introduce a persona, then borrow characteristics associated with that persona, to, for example, downplay the relative hierarchy between themselves and interlocutors or create closeness with interlocutors or with those whose personas they reference. Put another way, I will propose that "the taking on voices" describes a discursive strategy by which meaning results from the relationship between current and previously experienced discourse. I'll demonstrate that by taking on voices, speakers create personas then borrow characteristics associated with those personas to negotiate the ambiguous and polysemous dynamics of connection and power." (pp 6-7, italics by me (Ana)). I think that Tannen's "introducing a persona" by "taking on a voice" is important for a deeper analyses of play because it provides a perspective on the relationship between the author/actor and the character/persona s/he plays. What is even more important and rarely taken into account in the research and analyses of play, is the use of this "persona" to change the relationships between the actual interlocutors (players). Thus, even if we call the whole process "ventriloquation", it has a very special meaning of changing the relationships between the people in a dialogue. What do you think? Ana PS -- See the attached Tannen's paper. On Oct 12, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Adam Lefstein wrote: > Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, > I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): > > Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work, while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. > > Hope this helps, > adam > > > On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced the > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > it back out again. > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the original > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we are > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > mike > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > > > Dear Mike, > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him by > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly states > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which could > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of the > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as self-consciousness, > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice of > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if one > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two voices > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 73). > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > his dialogic principles? > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > >> > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > >> > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > >> > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From > >> the online etymological dictionary. > >> > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or replying to > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the > >> belly". > >> > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Ana > >> > >> > >> mike cole wrote: > >> > >> >Neat, Doug. > >> > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > >> interesting > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > >> > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > >> > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have > >> this > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one > >> God. > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > >> >mike > >> > > >> > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi-- > >> >> > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > >> Havelock's > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > >> people > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > >> worlds. I > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > >> though > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > >> audience: > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > >> horror of > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > >> clubs > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view, > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > >> genres > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available > >> in > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all > >> the > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > >> thought > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to > >> emerge > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world > >> as > >> >> it has turned these many years: > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose > >> you > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think > >> more > >> >> creatively? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, > >> few > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune > >> that > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the > >> >> poets. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to > >> do > >> >> with stories of long ago? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > >> derived by > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > >> sense > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real > >> world. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > >> spider's > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of > >> >> weaving such webs? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > >> things? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But > >> there > >> >> is no narrative there. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context? > >> Would > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > >> latest > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > >> disreputably, > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of > >> the > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > >> >> > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft > >> to > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > >> strange > >> >> term. > >> >> > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > >> "web" > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it > >> mean? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > >> children > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest, > >> so > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path > >> of > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used > >> to > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular > >> >> meaning? > >> >> > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > >> mistaken, > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do > >> you > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > >> >> > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative > >> of the > >> >> barbarians. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a > >> case > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled > >> their > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > >> form of > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to > >> free > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > >> "breadcrumb" is > >> >> drawn. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had > >> one > >> >> kind of adze? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > >> think > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a > >> >> danger to society? > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that > >> in > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my > >> ears, > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry > >> is, > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know > >> that > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will > >> be in > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > >> >> > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > >> >> > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > >> >> > >> >> Regards, > >> >> Doug > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > >> >> > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I > >> want > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review) > >> as an > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation > >> to > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > >> higher > >> >> ed. > >> >> > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be > >> >> greatly appreciated! > >> >> > >> >> -Caitlin > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Adam Lefstein From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 12:56:54 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 20:56:54 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Leontyev's activities In-Reply-To: <8D095F39A49B639-E9C-23436@webmail-d214.sysops.aol.com> References: <5202B8CC.3040502@mira.net> <52030FD3.5010807@mira.net> <520444BA.2000808@mira.net> <520460F0.5030506@mira.net> <19E63C50-A0D2-4A0F-BBA7-63853414FDAA@gmail.com> <1376330299002.45087158@boxbe> <8D095F39A49B639-E9C-23436@webmail-d214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Activity theory implicates a holistic developmental paradigm frequently focused upon the social genesis of mind. Cognitive psychology is an umbrella term that typically implicates a much weaker "present competence" paradigm and simpler set of practices, principally attending to individual's "processing" in relation to objects of interest, that are typically ignorant of the profound issues addressed in activity theory. However, if you wanted to you could situate activity theory within cognitive psychology as it is concerned with the genesis of cognition(which cognitive psychology typically is not). If you do the reading I think you'll find that there are no "basic differences" that would be worth bothering with. You are better off asking "What are the assumptions of these theories and what do they set out to do." Huw On 13 October 2013 07:21, Sukanta Majumdar wrote: > Hello > Will anybody in this group kindly tell me what is the basic difference > among Activity theory, Cognitive Psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field Theory? > I am not from Psychology background, but interested to learn about these > for human activity purposes. > > > > > > > Sukanta Majumdar, PhD > Assistant Professor > School of Planning and Architecture, Bhopal > Transit Campus: > MANIT campus, Sports Complex, > Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, India 462051. > sukantamajumdar@aim.com > sukanta@spabhopal.ac.in > www.spabhopal.ac.in > Mo. No: +91-9479910018. > Ph. No: +91-755-2670910-ext 238. > Fax No: +91-755-2670908. > > > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 17:49:11 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 18:49:11 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: searching the archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm going to play stupid on this one - partly because I am but also partly because it seems like it would be of general benefit if there were a user-friendly way for any average angie or joe to search the XMCA archives. (but thanks for the unix offer Huw!). Anyone have any ideas? -greg On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > https://www.google.co.uk/#q=site%3Alchc.ucsd.edu%2Fmca%2F++Bakhtin+and+ventriloquism > > Or ask if you want to know how to do it using unix. > > Huw > > > On 13 October 2013 16:33, Greg Thompson wrote: > > > Bruce J and others, > > Seems like there was a discusison about Bakhtin and ventriloquism some > time > > ago but I couldn't find it with a google search. > > > > So I am just wondering if there is a way to search the XMCA archives? > > I have traditionally just used google and put XMCA as the first term. But > > it would be nice to be able to conduct searches within the archive itself > > so I don't have to sort out the non-XMCA stuff (interesting as it might > > be). > > > > When I go to either here: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/index.html > > or here: > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ > > I can't find anywhere or anyway to search the archives. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > -greg > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 18:04:05 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:04:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ana, I think this is great and it resonates with an XMCA thread that I remember reading some time ago that said that "ventriloquates" was a poor translation of Bakhtin's words (still looking for that post). "Ventriloquates" also seems to introduce some confusion b.c. it isn't clear whether the speaker or someone else is the "dummy." Seems like neither. Also, I really appreciate the notion of "taking on a voice", that seems to resonate well with Bakhtin's larger concerns with genre and voicing. Admittedly, this latter term has some of the same confusion of "ventriloquate" - who is voicing and who or what is voiced? "Introducing personas" seems to address that confusion well. The speaker accomplishes something by voicing an other, and that voice by being enacted in an actual moment of talk then becomes realized and perpetuated as a socially recognizable voice - a persona. Oh, and I didn't see an attachment, could you resend? Many thanks, greg On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Adam, > > Thank you for bringing this up! This very interesting paragraph has been > interpreted by Deborah Tannen! She provides both some clues that the term > "ventriloquate" was first used by Bakhtin's translators, and also a very > dialogic interpretation of this paragraph. Here is a longer quote from her > paper: Tannen, D. (2009). Abduction, Dialogicality and Prior Text: The > Taking on of Voices in Conversational Discourse. Paper presented at the > 84th annual meeting of the Linguistic Society of America, Baltimore, MD. > > "Interestingly, the idea of distancing is the source of the term > "ventriloquize." It derives from Bakhtin's use of the term "ventriloquate." > However, Bubnova and Malcuzynski (2001) explain that "ventriloquate" is > actually the innovation of Bakhtin's translators.3 The passage in which the > term appears in English (Bakhtin [1975]1981:299) actually reads, in their > more literal translation from the original Russian, > "the language through which the author speaks is more densified, > objectified, as if it would appear to be at a certain distance from his > lips." > I particularly like the phrase "at a certain distance from his lips," > because one of the effects in conversational discourse of what I call > ventriloquizing -- or more generally the taking on of voices -- is > precisely to make the words spoken appear to be at a certain distance from > the speaker's lips, in the sense of distancing the speaker from > responsibility for an utterance." (p. 6) > > For Tannen, the focus is not so much of the "animation" of the receiving > "dummy" (other), but on the distancing of the author form the > "responsibility of an utterance". I interpret this as an act of creating an > imaginary character whose voice the author creates, in order to do > something to it. > > In the next two paragraphs Tannen confirms this interpretation: > > "The taking on of voices, then, is a resource by which speakers negotiate > relative connection and power, because it allows them to introduce a > persona, then borrow characteristics associated with that persona, to, for > example, downplay the relative hierarchy between themselves and > interlocutors or create closeness with interlocutors or with those whose > personas they reference. > Put another way, I will propose that "the taking on voices" describes a > discursive strategy by which meaning results from the relationship between > current and previously experienced discourse. I'll demonstrate that by > taking on voices, speakers create personas then borrow characteristics > associated with those personas to negotiate the ambiguous and polysemous > dynamics of connection and power." (pp 6-7, italics by me (Ana)). > > I think that Tannen's "introducing a persona" by "taking on a voice" is > important for a deeper analyses of play because it provides a perspective > on the relationship between the author/actor and the character/persona s/he > plays. What is even more important and rarely taken into account in the > research and analyses of play, is the use of this "persona" to change the > relationships between the actual interlocutors (players). Thus, even if we > call the whole process "ventriloquation", it has a very special meaning of > changing the relationships between the people in a dialogue. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > PS -- See the attached Tannen's paper. > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Adam Lefstein wrote: > > > Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, > > I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of > "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. > 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): > > > > Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own > work, while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from > the different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language > without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or > completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve > all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from > which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, > as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less > materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. > > > > Hope this helps, > > adam > > > > > > On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced > the > > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > > it back out again. > > > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the > original > > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we > are > > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to > him by > > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly > states > > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which > could > > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of > the > > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as > self-consciousness, > > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice > of > > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if > one > > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two > voices > > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. > 73). > > > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > > his dialogic principles? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > > >> > > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > > >> > > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > >> > > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling > sort > > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or > (more > > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so > called > > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that > this > > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." > From > > >> the online etymological dictionary. > > >> > > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or > replying to > > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in > the > > >> belly". > > >> > > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > >> > > >> What do you think? > > >> > > >> Ana > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> >Neat, Doug. > > >> > > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > > >> interesting > > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > >> > > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > >> > > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I > have > > >> this > > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a > one > > >> God. > > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > > >> >mike > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Hi-- > > >> >> > > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > > >> Havelock's > > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of > thought > > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > > >> people > > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > > >> worlds. I > > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > > >> though > > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > > >> audience: > > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the > audience > > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > > >> horror of > > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > > >> clubs > > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of > view, > > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > > >> genres > > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools > available > > >> in > > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the > means to > > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and > all > > >> the > > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and > activity > > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > > >> thought > > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were > to > > >> emerge > > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the > world > > >> as > > >> >> it has turned these many years: > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, > which can > > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But > suppose > > >> you > > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to > think > > >> more > > >> >> creatively? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts > of > > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once > entered, > > >> few > > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good > fortune > > >> that > > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by > the > > >> >> poets. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing > to > > >> do > > >> >> with stories of long ago? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of > the > > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking > for > > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > > >> derived by > > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to > imaginary > > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > > >> sense > > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a > spider's > > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the > real > > >> world. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > > >> spider's > > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable > of > > >> >> weaving such webs? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know > of > > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > > >> things? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe > the > > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. > But > > >> there > > >> >> is no narrative there. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But > suppose I > > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative > context? > > >> Would > > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, > which > > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > > >> latest > > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > > >> disreputably, > > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should > describe > > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the > minds of > > >> the > > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of > craft > > >> to > > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > > >> strange > > >> >> term. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > > >> "web" > > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does > it > > >> mean? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > > >> children > > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a > forest, > > >> so > > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the > path > > >> of > > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is > used > > >> to > > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which > one > > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in > the > > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its > particular > > >> >> meaning? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > > >> mistaken, > > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What > do > > >> you > > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a > signifier > > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this > narrative > > >> of the > > >> >> barbarians. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is > it a > > >> case > > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and > unable to > > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story > about > > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is > this > > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who > filled > > >> their > > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > > >> form of > > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able > to > > >> free > > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > > >> "breadcrumb" is > > >> >> drawn. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know > such > > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he > had > > >> one > > >> >> kind of adze? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > > >> think > > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not > always a > > >> >> danger to society? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede > that > > >> in > > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of > the > > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in > my > > >> ears, > > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that > poetry > > >> is, > > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I > know > > >> that > > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives > will > > >> be in > > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > > >> >> > > >> >> Regards, > > >> >> Doug > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with > Andrew > > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > >> >> > > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of > play/seriousness. I > > >> want > > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > and > > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit > review) > > >> as an > > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this > conversation > > >> to > > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, > Kierkegaard > > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > and > > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > >> higher > > >> >> ed. > > >> >> > > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would > be > > >> >> greatly appreciated! > > >> >> > > >> >> -Caitlin > > >> >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Adam Lefstein > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 18:04:05 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:04:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <8cqgtu1o1trmnsl7pwb0e5g5.1381605982455@email.android.com> <8704AB44-11FA-4D45-9451-85A7A2F29C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ana, I think this is great and it resonates with an XMCA thread that I remember reading some time ago that said that "ventriloquates" was a poor translation of Bakhtin's words (still looking for that post). "Ventriloquates" also seems to introduce some confusion b.c. it isn't clear whether the speaker or someone else is the "dummy." Seems like neither. Also, I really appreciate the notion of "taking on a voice", that seems to resonate well with Bakhtin's larger concerns with genre and voicing. Admittedly, this latter term has some of the same confusion of "ventriloquate" - who is voicing and who or what is voiced? "Introducing personas" seems to address that confusion well. The speaker accomplishes something by voicing an other, and that voice by being enacted in an actual moment of talk then becomes realized and perpetuated as a socially recognizable voice - a persona. Oh, and I didn't see an attachment, could you resend? Many thanks, greg On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Adam, > > Thank you for bringing this up! This very interesting paragraph has been > interpreted by Deborah Tannen! She provides both some clues that the term > "ventriloquate" was first used by Bakhtin's translators, and also a very > dialogic interpretation of this paragraph. Here is a longer quote from her > paper: Tannen, D. (2009). Abduction, Dialogicality and Prior Text: The > Taking on of Voices in Conversational Discourse. Paper presented at the > 84th annual meeting of the Linguistic Society of America, Baltimore, MD. > > "Interestingly, the idea of distancing is the source of the term > "ventriloquize." It derives from Bakhtin's use of the term "ventriloquate." > However, Bubnova and Malcuzynski (2001) explain that "ventriloquate" is > actually the innovation of Bakhtin's translators.3 The passage in which the > term appears in English (Bakhtin [1975]1981:299) actually reads, in their > more literal translation from the original Russian, > "the language through which the author speaks is more densified, > objectified, as if it would appear to be at a certain distance from his > lips." > I particularly like the phrase "at a certain distance from his lips," > because one of the effects in conversational discourse of what I call > ventriloquizing -- or more generally the taking on of voices -- is > precisely to make the words spoken appear to be at a certain distance from > the speaker's lips, in the sense of distancing the speaker from > responsibility for an utterance." (p. 6) > > For Tannen, the focus is not so much of the "animation" of the receiving > "dummy" (other), but on the distancing of the author form the > "responsibility of an utterance". I interpret this as an act of creating an > imaginary character whose voice the author creates, in order to do > something to it. > > In the next two paragraphs Tannen confirms this interpretation: > > "The taking on of voices, then, is a resource by which speakers negotiate > relative connection and power, because it allows them to introduce a > persona, then borrow characteristics associated with that persona, to, for > example, downplay the relative hierarchy between themselves and > interlocutors or create closeness with interlocutors or with those whose > personas they reference. > Put another way, I will propose that "the taking on voices" describes a > discursive strategy by which meaning results from the relationship between > current and previously experienced discourse. I'll demonstrate that by > taking on voices, speakers create personas then borrow characteristics > associated with those personas to negotiate the ambiguous and polysemous > dynamics of connection and power." (pp 6-7, italics by me (Ana)). > > I think that Tannen's "introducing a persona" by "taking on a voice" is > important for a deeper analyses of play because it provides a perspective > on the relationship between the author/actor and the character/persona s/he > plays. What is even more important and rarely taken into account in the > research and analyses of play, is the use of this "persona" to change the > relationships between the actual interlocutors (players). Thus, even if we > call the whole process "ventriloquation", it has a very special meaning of > changing the relationships between the people in a dialogue. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > PS -- See the attached Tannen's paper. > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Adam Lefstein wrote: > > > Dear Ana, Mike and everyone, > > I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of > "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p. > 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection): > > > > Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own > work, while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from > the different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language > without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or > completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve > all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from > which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks, > as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less > materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates. > > > > Hope this helps, > > adam > > > > > > On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole wrote: > > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced > the > > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read > > it back out again. > > > > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the > original > > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we > are > > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole! > > mike > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Mike, > > > > > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but > > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to > him by > > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly > states > > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which > could > > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary: > > > > > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of > the > > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity > > > of an artistic world?but only on condition that the hero, as > self-consciousness, > > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse > > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on > > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness > > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance > > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero > > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a > > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57) > > > > > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness -- where the voice > of > > > another penetrates one's own voice (which maybe had given an idea to > > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if > one > > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon, > > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two > voices > > > living in an inner dialogue. > > > > > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the > > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and > > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an > > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard > > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. > 73). > > > > > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a > > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly > > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole wrote: > > > > > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted > > > his dialogic principles? > > > mike > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane < > > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Mike and all, > > >> > > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek > > >> meaning "to talk in the belly" > > >> > > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive > > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution). > > >> > > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly," > > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling > sort > > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or > (more > > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so > called > > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that > this > > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." > From > > >> the online etymological dictionary. > > >> > > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from > > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ?and/or > replying to > > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in > the > > >> belly". > > >> > > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and > > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's. > > >> > > >> What do you think? > > >> > > >> Ana > > >> > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> >Neat, Doug. > > >> > > > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really > > >> interesting > > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun. > > >> > > > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term > > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation. > > >> > > > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I > have > > >> this > > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a > one > > >> God. > > >> >But I could well be mistaken. > > >> >mike > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Hi-- > > >> >> > > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to > > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric > > >> Havelock's > > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of > thought > > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of > > >> people > > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary > > >> worlds. I > > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even > > >> though > > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the > > >> audience: > > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the > audience > > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate > > >> horror of > > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter > > >> clubs > > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of > view, > > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call > > >> genres > > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools > available > > >> in > > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the > means to > > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and > all > > >> the > > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and > activity > > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where > > >> thought > > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were > to > > >> emerge > > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the > world > > >> as > > >> >> it has turned these many years: > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, > which can > > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But > suppose > > >> you > > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to > think > > >> more > > >> >> creatively? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it > > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts > of > > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and > > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once > entered, > > >> few > > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good > fortune > > >> that > > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by > the > > >> >> poets. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing > to > > >> do > > >> >> with stories of long ago? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of > the > > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking > for > > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be > > >> derived by > > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to > imaginary > > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative." > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a > > >> sense > > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a > spider's > > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the > real > > >> world. > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a > > >> spider's > > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable > of > > >> >> weaving such webs? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know > of > > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such > > >> things? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe > the > > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design? > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. > But > > >> there > > >> >> is no narrative there. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But > suppose I > > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative > context? > > >> Would > > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates. > > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, > which > > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the > > >> latest > > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most > > >> disreputably, > > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should > describe > > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the > minds of > > >> the > > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of > > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. Surely not! > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of > craft > > >> to > > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very > > >> strange > > >> >> term. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about > > >> "web" > > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does > it > > >> mean? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern > > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These > > >> children > > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a > forest, > > >> so > > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the > path > > >> of > > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is > used > > >> to > > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which > one > > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in > the > > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its > particular > > >> >> meaning? > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much > > >> mistaken, > > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the > > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What > do > > >> you > > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a > signifier > > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this > narrative > > >> of the > > >> >> barbarians. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is > it a > > >> case > > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and > unable to > > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story > about > > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is > this > > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who > filled > > >> their > > >> >> minds with lies and delusions? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative > > >> form of > > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able > to > > >> free > > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word > > >> "breadcrumb" is > > >> >> drawn. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know > such > > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he > had > > >> one > > >> >> kind of adze? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to > > >> think > > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not > always a > > >> >> danger to society? > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede > that > > >> in > > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of > the > > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in > my > > >> ears, > > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that > poetry > > >> is, > > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I > know > > >> that > > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives > will > > >> be in > > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say. > > >> >> > > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates. > > >> >> > > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god. > > >> >> > > >> >> Regards, > > >> >> Doug > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA < > > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in > > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with > Andrew > > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice. > > >> >> > > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of > play/seriousness. I > > >> want > > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed > and > > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit > review) > > >> as an > > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this > conversation > > >> to > > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, > Kierkegaard > > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky > and > > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to > > >> higher > > >> >> ed. > > >> >> > > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would > be > > >> >> greatly appreciated! > > >> >> > > >> >> -Caitlin > > >> >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Adam Lefstein > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From ablunden@mira.net Sun Oct 13 18:07:03 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:07:03 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: searching the archives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <525B43B7.4020107@mira.net> Huw was right, Greg. If you are using Internet Explorer, you can go to site:lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/ and then use the Site Search on the Google Search bar. But ironically, if you are using Google Chrome for your browser, the Google Search bar is unavailable. So just search for site:lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/ followed by the words you are searching for. You can insert quote marks, AND and OR to make the serch more precise. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Greg Thompson wrote: > I'm going to play stupid on this one - partly because I am but also partly > because it seems like it would be of general benefit if there were a > user-friendly way for any average angie or joe to search the XMCA archives. > (but thanks for the unix offer Huw!). > Anyone have any ideas? > -greg > > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > >> https://www.google.co.uk/#q=site%3Alchc.ucsd.edu%2Fmca%2F++Bakhtin+and+ventriloquism >> >> Or ask if you want to know how to do it using unix. >> >> Huw >> >> >> On 13 October 2013 16:33, Greg Thompson wrote: >> >> >>> Bruce J and others, >>> Seems like there was a discusison about Bakhtin and ventriloquism some >>> >> time >> >>> ago but I couldn't find it with a google search. >>> >>> So I am just wondering if there is a way to search the XMCA archives? >>> I have traditionally just used google and put XMCA as the first term. But >>> it would be nice to be able to conduct searches within the archive itself >>> so I don't have to sort out the non-XMCA stuff (interesting as it might >>> be). >>> >>> When I go to either here: >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/index.html >>> or here: >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>> I can't find anywhere or anyway to search the archives. >>> >>> Any suggestions would be appreciated. >>> -greg >>> >>> -- >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>> Department of Anthropology >>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>> Brigham Young University >>> Provo, UT 84602 >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >>> >>> > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 13 18:15:33 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:15:33 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: searching the archives? In-Reply-To: <525B43B7.4020107@mira.net> References: <525B43B7.4020107@mira.net> Message-ID: May I humbly propose that the IT powers-that-be include a little search box on that XMCA page? Too much to ask? -greg On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 7:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > Huw was right, Greg. > If you are using Internet Explorer, you can go to site: > lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/ and then use the Site Search on the Google > Search bar. > But ironically, if you are using Google Chrome for your browser, the > Google Search bar is unavailable. > So just search for site:lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/ followed by the words > you are searching for. > You can insert quote marks, AND and OR to make the serch more precise. > > Andy > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > Greg Thompson wrote: > >> I'm going to play stupid on this one - partly because I am but also partly >> because it seems like it would be of general benefit if there were a >> user-friendly way for any average angie or joe to search the XMCA >> archives. >> (but thanks for the unix offer Huw!). >> Anyone have any ideas? >> -greg >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Huw Lloyd ** >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> https://www.google.co.uk/#q=**site%3Alchc.ucsd.edu%2Fmca%2F+** >>> +Bakhtin+and+ventriloquism >>> >>> Or ask if you want to know how to do it using unix. >>> >>> Huw >>> >>> >>> On 13 October 2013 16:33, Greg Thompson >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Bruce J and others, >>>> Seems like there was a discusison about Bakhtin and ventriloquism some >>>> >>>> >>> time >>> >>> >>>> ago but I couldn't find it with a google search. >>>> >>>> So I am just wondering if there is a way to search the XMCA archives? >>>> I have traditionally just used google and put XMCA as the first term. >>>> But >>>> it would be nice to be able to conduct searches within the archive >>>> itself >>>> so I don't have to sort out the non-XMCA stuff (interesting as it might >>>> be). >>>> >>>> When I go to either here: >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/**index.html >>>> or here: >>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/ >>>> I can't find anywhere or anyway to search the archives. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions would be appreciated. >>>> -greg >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >>>> Visiting Assistant Professor >>>> Department of Anthropology >>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >>>> Brigham Young University >>>> Provo, UT 84602 >>>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From smago@uga.edu Tue Oct 15 02:42:19 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:42:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] new-study-shows-tool-use-supports-learning-nonhuman-species Message-ID: http://onlineathens.com/uga/2013-10-14/new-study-shows-tool-use-supports-learning-nonhuman-species From joe.glick@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 18:20:27 2013 From: joe.glick@gmail.com (JAG) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 21:20:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Link for Butterflies Message-ID: It took a while, but.. . found by looking for The transformers series. http://bufvc.ac.uk/dvdfind/index.php/title/21989 From wagner.schmit@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 18:53:51 2013 From: wagner.schmit@gmail.com (Wagner Luiz Schmit) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:53:51 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Link for Butterflies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, This link points to a BBC link to purchase, and you can not find the series on the BBC website. Another dead end. It is like the BBC never done this. Wagner On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:20 AM, JAG wrote: > It took a while, but.. . found by looking for The transformers series. > > http://bufvc.ac.uk/dvdfind/index.php/title/21989 From saraheag@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 01:27:12 2013 From: saraheag@gmail.com (Sarah Eagle) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:27:12 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Link for Butterflies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've done a search on COPAC and found a DVD recording. It's of the second of the series (*Out of the Wilderness* ex*plains how the teaching patterns devised by Professor Reuven Feuerstein for children in post-war refugee camps are now being used with black teenagers in New York and disadvantaged children in Jerusalem*) The DVD at Birmingham University Library - the details are here On 16 October 2013 02:53, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote: > Hello, > > This link points to a BBC link to purchase, and you can not find the > series on the BBC website. > > Another dead end. It is like the BBC never done this. > > Wagner > > On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:20 AM, JAG wrote: > > It took a while, but.. . found by looking for The transformers series. > > > > http://bufvc.ac.uk/dvdfind/index.php/title/21989 > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 07:23:15 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 07:23:15 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [commtalk] Media Fields CFP: Playgrounds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This post about play and playgrounds and digital stuff might contribute to play conversation. mike On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Chuk Moran wrote: > Hi all, MFJ likes experimental stuff even if still in development. > Their new CFP invites work on play & games > > > Submission Guidelines > > *Media Fields Journal: Critical Explorations in Media and Space* > > *Issue 8: Playgrounds* > > *Submission Deadline: Dec. 1, 2013* > > This issue of *Media Fields* investigates the connections between media, > space, power, and various approaches to ?play? across culture and society. > In this issue we seek conversations that embrace play in all its polysemy. > We invite papers that investigate how mediated play spaces can become > spaces to negotiate labor, power, resistance, agency, or subjectivity. To > that end, what is a mediated play space? What is the history of mediated > play spaces? How are non-play spaces subverted to become play spaces, and > what are the political consequences of this subversion? Moreover, what is > the political potential of play? > > In video game studies, play is often discussed as a free activity that > nonetheless is governed by structures, rules, and protocol; and driven by > clear goals or win states. This understanding is largely built upon the > theoretical work of Johan Huizinga and Roger Caillois. Although play can > often be seen as non-political, frivolous, and anathema to the serious > concerns of society and culture, play in fact constitutes - and itself > mediates - our everyday lives, (re)shaping our material world and producing > new fields of meaning and action. In Roland Barthes?s discussion of the > term, play designates a capacity for variation and change: *to have play*. > Alternatively, play enables, or is activated by, expressions of > individuality and agency: *to play*. In the first sense play is expressed > as capacity; in the second sense play is agential, a co-active engagement > of player, interface, and environment. However, software studies has > cautioned that spaces of play, in all of their manifestations, are also > bounded spaces, geographically, algorithmically, and ideologically. Indeed, > Alexander Galloway has explored both the ideological power of interfaces > and code as well as the agentive potential to resist or subvert these > forces through various forms of play. We purposefully invite a range of > submissions that continue to map these relationships between bounded > structure and playful expression, especially within, but by no means > limited to, virtual worlds and digital games. > > We are inspired by the work of those media scholars who have explored some > of these issues already. Henry Jenkins? influential article, ??Complete > Freedom of Movement?: Video Games as Gendered Play Spaces,? provides an > early and enduring example of an approach to the problem of media, space, > and play through a gendered perspective. Likewise, Bernadette Flynn?s > essay, ?Geography of the Digital Hearth,? explores the migrating play space > of the video game experience from the arcade, to the den, to its central > place in the living room, offering not only a genealogy of video game play > space but also a significant contribution to the continuing study of > changing living room dynamics explored by Lynn Spigel, Cecila Tichi, and > more recently Michael Z. Newman and Elana Levine. Finally, although digital > games lend themselves to the study of mediated play spaces, we are also > seek scholarship interested in the ways other media, including film, > television, radio, and digital culture, construct and are constructed as > fields of play. > > Thus, our approach is multivalent. We invite a wide range of submissions > that consider this complexity, possibly addressing the following topics: > > ? Military Play Space: How is play deployed to > reproduce or aestheticize positions of power and Empire? How can play > subvert and reconstruct these spaces? These questions may extend the work > of Nick Dyer-Witheford and Greig de Peuter into digital and cultural > geography. > > ? Sport, Space, and Experiences: How can we understand > the experience of viewing sporting events in relation to mediated play > spaces, either in the living room, at the sports bar, or even at the live > event itself? How does play - L.A.R.P., Parkour, or skateboarding, for > example - reclaim space and reimagine space? > > ? The Domestic Space and Video Games: Following work > by Bernadette Flynn and Ben Aslinger, how do digital games and other > entertainment technologies augment the spatial, social, and family dynamics > of the contemporary domestic space? How does play reshape the domestic > space? > > ? Gender, Sexuality, Race, Class, Identity, and Online > Spaces: How do people play with identity and power in virtual spaces? How > can virtual space be used tactically to oppose oppressive powers? > > ? Queer/Feminist Gaming: representations of gendered > and sexualized spaces in mainstream video games, gendered/queer geographies > of video game production, gendered/queer spaces of gaming culture? > > ? Spaces of Surveillance: How can play be mobilized as > a form of resistance to spaces of surveillance? Work here might follow in > the vein of projects from the Critical Art Ensemble. > > ? Play and Labor; Play and Anonymity; Play and > Resistance; Counter-Play > > We are looking for essays of 1500-2500 words, digital art projects, and > audio or video interviews exploring the relationship between media, space, > power, and play. We encourage approaches to this topic from scholars in > cinema and media studies, anthropology, architecture, art and art history, > communication, ecology, geography, literature, musicology, sociology, and > other relevant fields. > > Email submissions to Alex Chaplin and John Vanderhoef at > submissions@mediafieldsjournal.org > > > > > From bferholt@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 07:57:27 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:57:27 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: [commtalk] Media Fields CFP: Playgrounds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes -- thanks! Beth On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 4:23 PM, mike cole wrote: > This post about play and playgrounds and digital stuff might contribute to > play conversation. > mike > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Chuk Moran wrote: > > > Hi all, MFJ likes experimental stuff even if still in development. > > Their new CFP invites work on play & games > > > > > > Submission Guidelines > > > > *Media Fields Journal: Critical Explorations in Media and Space* > > > > *Issue 8: Playgrounds* > > > > *Submission Deadline: Dec. 1, 2013* > > > > This issue of *Media Fields* investigates the connections between media, > > space, power, and various approaches to ?play? across culture and > society. > > In this issue we seek conversations that embrace play in all its > polysemy. > > We invite papers that investigate how mediated play spaces can become > > spaces to negotiate labor, power, resistance, agency, or subjectivity. To > > that end, what is a mediated play space? What is the history of mediated > > play spaces? How are non-play spaces subverted to become play spaces, and > > what are the political consequences of this subversion? Moreover, what is > > the political potential of play? > > > > In video game studies, play is often discussed as a free activity that > > nonetheless is governed by structures, rules, and protocol; and driven by > > clear goals or win states. This understanding is largely built upon the > > theoretical work of Johan Huizinga and Roger Caillois. Although play can > > often be seen as non-political, frivolous, and anathema to the serious > > concerns of society and culture, play in fact constitutes - and itself > > mediates - our everyday lives, (re)shaping our material world and > producing > > new fields of meaning and action. In Roland Barthes?s discussion of the > > term, play designates a capacity for variation and change: *to have > play*. > > Alternatively, play enables, or is activated by, expressions of > > individuality and agency: *to play*. In the first sense play is expressed > > as capacity; in the second sense play is agential, a co-active engagement > > of player, interface, and environment. However, software studies has > > cautioned that spaces of play, in all of their manifestations, are also > > bounded spaces, geographically, algorithmically, and ideologically. > Indeed, > > Alexander Galloway has explored both the ideological power of interfaces > > and code as well as the agentive potential to resist or subvert these > > forces through various forms of play. We purposefully invite a range of > > submissions that continue to map these relationships between bounded > > structure and playful expression, especially within, but by no means > > limited to, virtual worlds and digital games. > > > > We are inspired by the work of those media scholars who have explored > some > > of these issues already. Henry Jenkins? influential article, ??Complete > > Freedom of Movement?: Video Games as Gendered Play Spaces,? provides an > > early and enduring example of an approach to the problem of media, space, > > and play through a gendered perspective. Likewise, Bernadette Flynn?s > > essay, ?Geography of the Digital Hearth,? explores the migrating play > space > > of the video game experience from the arcade, to the den, to its central > > place in the living room, offering not only a genealogy of video game > play > > space but also a significant contribution to the continuing study of > > changing living room dynamics explored by Lynn Spigel, Cecila Tichi, and > > more recently Michael Z. Newman and Elana Levine. Finally, although > digital > > games lend themselves to the study of mediated play spaces, we are also > > seek scholarship interested in the ways other media, including film, > > television, radio, and digital culture, construct and are constructed as > > fields of play. > > > > Thus, our approach is multivalent. We invite a wide range of submissions > > that consider this complexity, possibly addressing the following topics: > > > > ? Military Play Space: How is play deployed to > > reproduce or aestheticize positions of power and Empire? How can play > > subvert and reconstruct these spaces? These questions may extend the work > > of Nick Dyer-Witheford and Greig de Peuter into digital and cultural > > geography. > > > > ? Sport, Space, and Experiences: How can we understand > > the experience of viewing sporting events in relation to mediated play > > spaces, either in the living room, at the sports bar, or even at the live > > event itself? How does play - L.A.R.P., Parkour, or skateboarding, for > > example - reclaim space and reimagine space? > > > > ? The Domestic Space and Video Games: Following work > > by Bernadette Flynn and Ben Aslinger, how do digital games and other > > entertainment technologies augment the spatial, social, and family > dynamics > > of the contemporary domestic space? How does play reshape the domestic > > space? > > > > ? Gender, Sexuality, Race, Class, Identity, and Online > > Spaces: How do people play with identity and power in virtual spaces? How > > can virtual space be used tactically to oppose oppressive powers? > > > > ? Queer/Feminist Gaming: representations of gendered > > and sexualized spaces in mainstream video games, gendered/queer > geographies > > of video game production, gendered/queer spaces of gaming culture? > > > > ? Spaces of Surveillance: How can play be mobilized as > > a form of resistance to spaces of surveillance? Work here might follow in > > the vein of projects from the Critical Art Ensemble. > > > > ? Play and Labor; Play and Anonymity; Play and > > Resistance; Counter-Play > > > > We are looking for essays of 1500-2500 words, digital art projects, and > > audio or video interviews exploring the relationship between media, > space, > > power, and play. We encourage approaches to this topic from scholars in > > cinema and media studies, anthropology, architecture, art and art > history, > > communication, ecology, geography, literature, musicology, sociology, and > > other relevant fields. > > > > Email submissions to Alex Chaplin and John Vanderhoef at > > submissions@mediafieldsjournal.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 16 15:38:04 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:38:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [COGDEVSOC] Assistant Professor Position at UC Riverside In-Reply-To: <4A3DB06227FD1C448BDEB7AC4D838DEB3355A9D1@exch-mbox-5.exch.ucr.edu> References: <4A3DB06227FD1C448BDEB7AC4D838DEB3355A9D1@exch-mbox-5.exch.ucr.edu> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rebekah Richert Date: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 3:27 PM Subject: [COGDEVSOC] Assistant Professor Position at UC Riverside To: "cogdevsoc@virginia.edu" *Tenure Track Assistant Professor of * *Developmental Psychology* * *** The Department of Psychology, University of California, Riverside, invites applications for a tenure-track Assistant Professor position in DEVELOPMENTAL PSYCHOLOGY. Area of specialization in developmental psychology is open, though we are especially interested in candidates that can contribute to our current strengths in culture, context, and biological/familial contributions to cognitive or social development. Applicants with research experience in development either at specific age periods or across the life span are welcome. The position begins July 1, 2014. A Ph.D. degree is required at the time of the appointment and applicants should have a significant record or promise of outstanding research. Salary will be commensurate with education and experience. Applicants should be committed to excellence in undergraduate and graduate education. Review of completed applications will begin December 5, 2013 and will continue until the position is filled. Interested candidates should transmit a cover letter, their curriculum vitae, explicit research and teaching statements, reprints and preprints, and arrange to have three letters of recommendation provided, all using the following link: https://aprecruit.ucr.edu/apply/JPF00004. Questions about the position should be directed to Professor Chandra Reynolds, Chair, Developmental Area Search Committee, at chandra.reynolds@ucr.edu.**** The Riverside campus of the University of California is growing rapidly and has an excellent psychology department with a strong record of success in research, teaching, and extramural funding. For information on the Department of Psychology, see our web site at: www.psych.ucr.edu. The campus is located about 50 miles east of Los Angeles and less than an hour?s drive from the area?s mountains, deserts, and beaches. The University of California, Riverside is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer.**** ** ** Rebekah A. Richert**** Associate Professor**** Department of Psychology**** UC Riverside**** www.ccl.ucr.edu**** ** ** =========== To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@virginia.edu (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To leave the CDS listserv, send a message to sympa@virginia.edu. The subject line should read: "unsubscribe cogdevsoc" (no quotes). Leave the message body blank. For other information about the listserv, including how to update your email address and how to subscribe, visit http://www.cogdevsoc.org/listserv.php ============ -------------- next part -------------- =========== To post to the CDS listserv, send your message to: cogdevsoc@virginia.edu (If you belong to the listserv and have not included any large attachments, your message will be posted without moderation--so be careful!) To leave the CDS listserv, send a message to sympa@virginia.edu. The subject line should read: "unsubscribe cogdevsoc" (no quotes). Leave the message body blank. For other information about the listserv, including how to update your email address and how to subscribe, visit http://www.cogdevsoc.org/listserv.php ============ From bferholt@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 04:47:04 2013 From: bferholt@gmail.com (Beth Ferholt) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work thinking and reading in response! We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, can you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of it, also the work on play and narrative development, language development, and metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a 2013 literature review ? ). However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally suspicious of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of the books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget and they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds are doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long presentations to us : ). For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass was a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. They showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own just-two year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea of what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about why I think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really well to believe it ... and I did, and I do. So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal experiment that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what we still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more capable of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very young, than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which we were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our reading of VYgotsky on play. Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on the arts? Or maybe it?s both? THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine Smolucha: > Beth, > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the children to > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here for > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to use > symbol systems. > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And yes, > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think more > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are posing > to > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I think > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, above. > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask > why > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at what > it > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! > Beth > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha >wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > Beth, > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for separating > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a non-replica > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, i. > e., > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that documented > this > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > 1991documented > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that the > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another > > > (re-present another)??? > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play > allows > > > for > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what > this > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship > between > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > > > substantiate? Are > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The > path > > > is > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed > > > larger > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic > > > can be > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in > hunting > > > it > > > > > down :) > > > > > --The other Monica > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the > > > relationship > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by > Swedish > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was > > > correct > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! > > > > > Tanks, > > > > > Beth > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > School of Education > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > School of Education > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > School of Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From ablunden@mira.net Fri Oct 18 05:51:25 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 23:51:25 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52612ECD.5040505@mira.net> Well, you certainly caught my attention with this message, Beth. You wanted questions. What would you take (in the context of young children) to be the simplest unit of "symbolic thought"? And what would you take to be the simplest unit of "play"? I am out of my comfort zone here, Beth, so there is no trick or anything here. I can't make sense of these questions otherwise. Vygotsky tells us that there is preverbal intelligence and preintellectual speech. So I don't find observations of 1-year-olds decisive on the question of the relation between play and symbolic thought. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Beth Ferholt wrote: > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work > thinking and reading in response! > > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, can > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of it, > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, and > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a > 2013 literature review ? ). > > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally suspicious > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of the > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget and > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds are > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > presentations to us : ). > > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass was > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. They > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own just-two > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea of > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about why I > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really well > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal experiment > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what we > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more capable > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very young, > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which we > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on the > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > > >> Message from Francine Smolucha: >> Beth, >> I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for >> development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). >> Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool >> Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four >> domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While >> their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four >> domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the children to >> use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here for >> a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to use >> symbol systems. >> >>> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 >>> From: bferholt@gmail.com >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >>> >>> We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And yes, >>> this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think more >>> broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are posing >>> >> to >> >>> our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I think >>> we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, above. >>> I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask >>> >> why >> >>> we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at what >>> >> it >> >>> does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! >>> >> Beth >> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha >> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Message from Francine Smolucha: >>>> Beth, >>>> According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as >>>> riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for separating >>>> meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a non-replica >>>> object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial >>>> representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, i. >>>> >> e., >> >>>> line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical >>>> notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that documented >>>> >> this >> >>>> progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific >>>> components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago >>>> >> 1991documented >> >>>> how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a >>>> longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that the >>>> basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another >>>> (re-present another)??? >>>> Are you thinking of something along these lines? >>>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 >>>>> From: bferholt@gmail.com >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >>>>> >>>>> We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play >>>>> >> allows >> >>>> for >>>> >>>>> the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what >>>>> >> this >> >>>>> experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < >>>>> monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Beth, >>>>>> What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship >>>>>> >> between >> >>>>>> play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to >>>>>> >>>> substantiate? Are >>>> >>>>>> you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The >>>>>> >> path >> >>>> is >>>> >>>>>> not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed >>>>>> >>>> larger >>>> >>>>>> ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic >>>>>> >>>> can be >>>> >>>>>> framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in >>>>>> >> hunting >> >>>> it >>>> >>>>>> down :) >>>>>> --The other Monica >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the >>>>>> >>>> relationship >>>> >>>>>> between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by >>>>>> >> Swedish >> >>>>>> preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was >>>>>> >>>> correct >>>> >>>>>> in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! >>>>>> Tanks, >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> School of Education >>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>>> >>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> School of Education >>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>> >>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Beth Ferholt >>> Assistant Professor >>> School of Education >>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>> >>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>> >> > > > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 06:30:08 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 16:30:08 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=E7uradi?= Message-ID: Dear all, For your information. http://www.unesco.org/new/en/media-services/single-view/news/interview_with_ioanna_kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all cultures is a ?trap? for human rights.* **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences should not cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as they like, *so long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent themselves and their children from developing their human potentialities. The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an attempt to fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many cultures have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as an example polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due to the importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for human rights. What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. Cultural norms must be evaluated. * *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of schoolchildren or employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no girls wearing a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. *Today there is a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that prevent people, and children in particular, from developing as human beings. This revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect for all cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through education. The concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply consist in the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a negative principle which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do not determine the establishment of social relations and the administration of public affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human rights and the reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not aware that they push children to give priority to one of their various collective identities, that they push them to give priority to their cultural identity and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all this. The premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms are deduced are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. So to better protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of their concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing internationally. From sungwookim92@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 07:50:06 2013 From: sungwookim92@gmail.com (Sungwoo Kim) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 23:50:06 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] An interesting meta-analysis on the relationship between intelligence, genetics, and culture Message-ID: *The Heritability of Intelligence: Not What You Think *By Scott Barry Kaufman http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/2013/10/17/the-heritability-of-intelligence-not-what-you-think/ "One of the longest standing assumptions about the nature of human intelligence has just been seriously challenged." "To be clear: these findings do not mean that differences in intelligence are entirely determined by culture. Numerous researchers have found that the structure of cognitive abilities is strongly influenced by genes (although we haven?t the foggiest idea which genes are reliably important). What these findings do suggest is that there is a much greater role of culture, education, and experience in the development of intelligence than mainstream theories of intelligence have assumed." The original article can be downloaded at: http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ Kees-Jan-et-al.-2013.pdf Peace, Sungwoo From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 08:05:03 2013 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:05:03 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=E7uradi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From Carol, in a brave attempt to confess ignorance. This is all really very important, and we can see the negative effects of the (re-)emergence right-wing Christianity being also in conflict with these rights. What I need help with here, is the extraction of human rights in this debate. Where do we draw these human rights from, from where are they deduced? What is their discourse? I would like to know the basis of which we can determine that human rights have a moral ascendency when cultural rights are at odds with them. I also wonder where the gap is between culture and religious rights? Or is this a discourse where religious rights are subsumed under or nested in cultural rights? (Or vice-versa.) I sense this is a philosophical debate, but discussions about human rights surely impinge on any cultural or religious debates or even norms. You see I have many questions. Answering even one would help me understand better. Thanks Carol On 18 October 2013 15:30, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Dear all, > > For your information. > > > http://www.unesco.org/new/en/media-services/single-view/news/interview_with_ioanna_kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ > > > > *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all cultures is a > ?trap? for human rights.* > > **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences should not > cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as they like, > *so > long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent > themselves and their children from developing their human potentialities. > The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an attempt to > fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many cultures > have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as an example > polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due to the > importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for human rights. > What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. Cultural > norms must be evaluated. * > > *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of schoolchildren or > employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* > > **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no girls wearing > a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. *Today there is > a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that prevent > people, and children in particular, from developing as human beings. This > revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect for all > cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through education. The > concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply consist in > the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a negative principle > which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do not determine > the establishment of social relations and the administration of public > affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human rights and the > reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of > schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not aware that they > push children to give priority to one of their various collective > identities, that they push them to give priority to their cultural identity > and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote > discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all this. The > premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms are deduced > are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. So to better > protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of their > concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing > internationally. > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 08:21:40 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:21:40 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=E7uradi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Though not being sure, and this is just being a guess only, I think that the basis human rights have such an ascendency in such a situation is the universal character of human rights, e.g. the right to life, to thought and so on , whereas cultural rights , as Prof. Ku?uradi puts it, may not be universal. But please indicate if my reasoning is inadequate, I would like to know it if it is a mistaken or insufficient reasoning. On the other hand, human rights themselves can be in contradiction with each other, e.g. right to property is a human right but what about when this right opens the way to slavery, to force a person to work or to capitalist exploitation? Then, I think that, even human rights as such may not be adequate to provide a basis for ethical social relationships and they should be conceived in the context of a social, historical development of human society. Ulvi 2013/10/18 Carol Macdonald > From Carol, in a brave attempt to confess ignorance. > > This is all really very important, and we can see the negative effects of > the (re-)emergence right-wing Christianity being also in conflict with > these rights. What I need help with here, is the extraction of human rights > in this debate. Where do we draw these human rights from, from where are > they deduced? What is their discourse? I would like to know the basis of > which we can determine that human rights have a moral ascendency when > cultural rights are at odds with them. I also wonder where the gap is > between culture and religious rights? Or is this a discourse where > religious rights are subsumed under or nested in cultural rights? (Or > vice-versa.) > > I sense this is a philosophical debate, but discussions about human rights > surely impinge on any cultural or religious debates or even norms. > > You see I have many questions. Answering even one would help me understand > better. > > Thanks > > Carol > > > On 18 October 2013 15:30, Ulvi ??il wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > For your information. > > > > > > > http://www.unesco.org/new/en/media-services/single-view/news/interview_with_ioanna_kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ > > > > > > > > *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all cultures is a > > ?trap? for human rights.* > > > > **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences should not > > cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as they like, > > *so > > long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent > > themselves and their children from developing their human potentialities. > > The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an attempt to > > fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many cultures > > have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as an example > > polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due to the > > importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for human rights. > > What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. Cultural > > norms must be evaluated. * > > > > *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of schoolchildren or > > employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* > > > > **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no girls > wearing > > a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. *Today there > is > > a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that prevent > > people, and children in particular, from developing as human beings. This > > revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect for all > > cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through education. The > > concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply consist in > > the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a negative principle > > which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do not > determine > > the establishment of social relations and the administration of public > > affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human rights and the > > reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of > > schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not aware that > they > > push children to give priority to one of their various collective > > identities, that they push them to give priority to their cultural > identity > > and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote > > discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all this. The > > premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms are > deduced > > are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. So to > better > > protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of their > > concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing > > internationally. > > > > > > -- > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) > Developmental psycholinguist > Academic, Researcher, and Editor > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa > From anamshane@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 08:24:37 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:24:37 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Beth, Great insights!! We are all searching for these answers for quite a while. One of the most striking works on the crucial role of play in the physical and psychological development (and psychological would include symbolic processes) is the work of Fraser Brown and Sarah Webb on the children in Romanian orphanages. In a nutshell, one can look at it as a cruel natural experiment in depriving children of adult interaction (but not food and shelter) -- leading to a total physical and mental retardation, to the point where 10 year olds physically look like 4 and mentally like one year olds (and not "normal" one year olds). A play activity of 2 hrs a day with these children over just a few moths resulted in a visible development of the children -- both physical and mental. The article I am sending cannot present what I saw in the video documentation that Fraser Brown played in several meetings of the TASP -- however, this video is not public (Fraser will play it if invited to a conference, but will not make it available in any other way). This, of course is not a definitive answer that play is directly connected to the development of symbolic processes, but it becomes very palpable that some kind of playful relationships and playful activities are involved in the development of "higher mental processes". I also agree with a lot of what Dahlberg and Moss have to say about developmental orientation leading to a "deficit model" in the approach to children. And they are right when they provide evidence that even very little infants and toddlers use incredibly elaborated symbolically rich ways to create and represent imaginary, play worlds. However, when it comes to "symbolic processes" I think that the issues are more complex. For instance, I think that the reaction against the the connection between play and symbolic processes, is based on rejecting a simplistic understanding of the symbolic "development" as a development of an ability to "subsitute" a meaning of an object - for another "meaning". (Vygotsky's well discussed case of a "horse"-stick). I say "simplistic" -- in the reference to S. Langer's and Cassirer's studies of symbols their relationships. The so called "referential function" of the symbols -- to "point to" or to "stand for" objects/actions etc -- is just the most rudimentary relationship of any "sign". In that sense, most of the mammals and even non-mammals develop understanding of simple "signs", that unequivocally refer to something that they stand for. Even Vygotsky in his famous article "The role of play..." said that play is NOT a symbolic action. ("I believe that play is not symbolic action in the proper sense of the term,..." Vygotsky, The Role of Play in Development, in Mind in Society, 1978, p. 94). In my dissertation "Metaphor beyond play" (that you can find on the Academia. com) I have tried to show in what sense play may "play" a role in the building of the symbolic approach to the world, self, and the other, as one of the conditions for starting a symbolic construction. In other words, in my opinion "symbolic function" cannot be separated and isolated as an "unit of analysis" from the experiencing (perezhivanie) of the relational aspects (postupok) of the immediate local events. What do you think? Ana On Oct 18, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work > thinking and reading in response! > > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, can > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of it, > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, and > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a > 2013 literature review ? ). > > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally suspicious > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of the > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget and > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds are > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > presentations to us : ). > > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass was > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. They > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own just-two > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea of > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about why I > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really well > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal experiment > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what we > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more capable > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very young, > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which we > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on the > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > >> Message from Francine Smolucha: >> Beth, >> I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for >> development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). >> Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool >> Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four >> domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While >> their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four >> domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the children to >> use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here for >> a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to use >> symbol systems. >>> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 >>> From: bferholt@gmail.com >>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >>> >>> We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And yes, >>> this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think more >>> broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are posing >> to >>> our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I think >>> we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, above. >>> I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask >> why >>> we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at what >> it >>> does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! >> Beth >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha >> wrote: >>> >>>> Message from Francine Smolucha: >>>> Beth, >>>> According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as >>>> riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for separating >>>> meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a non-replica >>>> object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial >>>> representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, i. >> e., >>>> line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical >>>> notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that documented >> this >>>> progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific >>>> components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago >> 1991documented >>>> how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a >>>> longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that the >>>> basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another >>>> (re-present another)??? >>>> Are you thinking of something along these lines? >>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 >>>>> From: bferholt@gmail.com >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >>>>> >>>>> We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play >> allows >>>> for >>>>> the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what >> this >>>>> experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < >>>>> monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Beth, >>>>>> What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship >> between >>>>>> play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to >>>> substantiate? Are >>>>>> you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The >> path >>>> is >>>>>> not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed >>>> larger >>>>>> ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic >>>> can be >>>>>> framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in >> hunting >>>> it >>>>>> down :) >>>>>> --The other Monica >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the >>>> relationship >>>>>> between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by >> Swedish >>>>>> preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was >>>> correct >>>>>> in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! >>>>>> Tanks, >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> School of Education >>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>>> >>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>> School of Education >>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>> >>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Beth Ferholt >>> Assistant Professor >>> School of Education >>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>> >>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >> >> > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Fri Oct 18 08:37:02 2013 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 09:37:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Beth, last week, reading Albert Murray's "The Omni-Americans: Black experience & American culture", i came across a reference to Johan Huizinga, a dutch socio-cultural theorist (he died in 1945 under Nazi detention) who wrote "Homo Ludens" (1938) where he discussed the possibility that play is the primary formative element in human culture. this may be a seminal piece of theorizing on the cultural role of play, though different from Gregory Bateson's work on play. phillip From peg.griffin@att.net Fri Oct 18 08:41:23 2013 From: peg.griffin@att.net (Peg Griffin) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1382110883.76217.YahooMailNeo@web181204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> For what it is worth, Beth & Monica, I wanted to say that Vygotsky says Thinking and Speaking go along on their own just fine.? Then the two?mash up! That's the wonder of it! Not precursor relationship there, so why prescursor relation?between play and symbolic thought? Peg ________________________________ From: Beth Ferholt To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 7:47 AM Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work thinking and reading in response! We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, can you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of it, also the work on play and narrative development, language development, and metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a 2013 literature review ? ). However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally suspicious of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of the books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget and they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds are doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long presentations to us : ). For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass was a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. They showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own just-two year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea of what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about why I think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really well to believe it ... and I did, and I do. So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal experiment that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what we still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more capable of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very young, than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which we were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our reading of VYgotsky on play. Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on the arts?? Or maybe it?s both? THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > Message from Francine Smolucha: > Beth, > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the children to > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here for > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to use > symbol systems. > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful.? And yes, > > this is what we are thinking about.? Your response makes me think more > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are posing > to > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I think > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, above. > >? I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask > why > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at what > it > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! >? Beth > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha >wrote: > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > Beth, > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as > > > riding on a stick as if it were a? horse) are the pivot for separating > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a non-replica > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, i. > e., > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that documented > this > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > 1991documented > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that the > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another > > > (re-present another)??? > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play > allows > > > for > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what > this > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship > between > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > > > substantiate? Are > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The > path > > > is > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed > > > larger > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic > > > can be > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in > hunting > > > it > > > > > down :) > > > > > --The other Monica > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the > > > relationship > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by > Swedish > > > > > preschool teachers.? Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was > > > correct > > > > > in his claims about this relationship?? We can't find any! > > > > > Tanks, > > > > > Beth > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > School of Education > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > School of Education > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Beth Ferholt > > Assistant Professor > > School of Education > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > -- Beth Ferholt Assistant Professor School of Education Brooklyn College, City University of New York 2900 Bedford Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu Phone: (718) 951-5205 Fax: (718) 951-4816 From anamshane@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 08:49:46 2013 From: anamshane@gmail.com (Ana Marjanovic-Shane) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:49:46 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CD576A8-A16E-4A09-91EC-BE27F6F4967D@gmail.com> Forgot to attach the article, Ana -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Brown and Webb, Children without play - a research project, 2008.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 73127 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131018/f92e4965/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- On Oct 18, 2013, at 11:24 AM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Dear Beth, > > Great insights!! We are all searching for these answers for quite a while. > > One of the most striking works on the crucial role of play in the physical and psychological development (and psychological would include symbolic processes) is the work of Fraser Brown and Sarah Webb on the children in Romanian orphanages. > In a nutshell, one can look at it as a cruel natural experiment in depriving children of adult interaction (but not food and shelter) -- leading to a total physical and mental retardation, to the point where 10 year olds physically look like 4 and mentally like one year olds (and not "normal" one year olds). A play activity of 2 hrs a day with these children over just a few moths resulted in a visible development of the children -- both physical and mental. > The article I am sending cannot present what I saw in the video documentation that Fraser Brown played in several meetings of the TASP -- however, this video is not public (Fraser will play it if invited to a conference, but will not make it available in any other way). > > This, of course is not a definitive answer that play is directly connected to the development of symbolic processes, but it becomes very palpable that some kind of playful relationships and playful activities are involved in the development of "higher mental processes". > > I also agree with a lot of what Dahlberg and Moss have to say about developmental orientation leading to a "deficit model" in the approach to children. And they are right when they provide evidence that even very little infants and toddlers use incredibly elaborated symbolically rich ways to create and represent imaginary, play worlds. > > However, when it comes to "symbolic processes" I think that the issues are more complex. For instance, I think that the reaction against the the connection between play and symbolic processes, is based on rejecting a simplistic understanding of the symbolic "development" as a development of an ability to "subsitute" a meaning of an object - for another "meaning". (Vygotsky's well discussed case of a "horse"-stick). I say "simplistic" -- in the reference to S. Langer's and Cassirer's studies of symbols their relationships. The so called "referential function" of the symbols -- to "point to" or to "stand for" objects/actions etc -- is just the most rudimentary relationship of any "sign". In that sense, most of the mammals and even non-mammals develop understanding of simple "signs", that unequivocally refer to something that they stand for. > Even Vygotsky in his famous article "The role of play..." said that play is NOT a symbolic action. ("I believe that play is not symbolic action in the > proper sense of the term,..." Vygotsky, The Role of Play in Development, in Mind in Society, 1978, p. 94). In my dissertation "Metaphor beyond play" (that you can find on the Academia. com) I have tried to show in what sense play may "play" a role in the building of the symbolic approach to the world, self, and the other, as one of the conditions for starting a symbolic construction. > In other words, in my opinion "symbolic function" cannot be separated and isolated as an "unit of analysis" from the experiencing (perezhivanie) of the relational aspects (postupok) of the immediate local events. > > What do you think? > > Ana > > > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > >> Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain >> and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work >> thinking and reading in response! >> >> We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, can >> you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of it, >> also the work on play and narrative development, language development, and >> metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, >> and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a >> 2013 literature review ? ). >> >> However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: >> >> The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally suspicious >> of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of the >> books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that >> developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a >> deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget and >> they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to >> preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of >> their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or >> would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. >> >> In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us >> that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show >> us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds are >> doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long >> presentations to us : ). >> >> For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass was >> a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. They >> showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own just-two >> year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could >> identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea of >> what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about why I >> think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my >> child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to >> reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really well >> to believe it ... and I did, and I do. >> >> So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship >> between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are >> seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote >> XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal experiment >> that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of >> course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So >> perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, >> playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. >> >> Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much >> appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what we >> still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more capable >> of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very young, >> than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which we >> were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent >> toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our >> reading of VYgotsky on play. >> >> Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about >> seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on the >> arts? Or maybe it?s both? >> >> THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha wrote: >> >>> Message from Francine Smolucha: >>> Beth, >>> I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for >>> development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). >>> Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool >>> Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four >>> domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While >>> their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four >>> domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the children to >>> use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here for >>> a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to use >>> symbol systems. >>>> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 >>>> From: bferholt@gmail.com >>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >>>> >>>> We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And yes, >>>> this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think more >>>> broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are posing >>> to >>>> our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I think >>>> we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, above. >>>> I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask >>> why >>>> we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at what >>> it >>>> does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! >>> Beth >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha: >>>>> Beth, >>>>> According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as >>>>> riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for separating >>>>> meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a non-replica >>>>> object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial >>>>> representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, i. >>> e., >>>>> line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical >>>>> notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that documented >>> this >>>>> progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific >>>>> components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago >>> 1991documented >>>>> how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a >>>>> longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that the >>>>> basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another >>>>> (re-present another)??? >>>>> Are you thinking of something along these lines? >>>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 >>>>>> From: bferholt@gmail.com >>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- >>>>>> >>>>>> We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play >>> allows >>>>> for >>>>>> the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what >>> this >>>>>> experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < >>>>>> monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Beth, >>>>>>> What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship >>> between >>>>>>> play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to >>>>> substantiate? Are >>>>>>> you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The >>> path >>>>> is >>>>>>> not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed >>>>> larger >>>>>>> ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic >>>>> can be >>>>>>> framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in >>> hunting >>>>> it >>>>>>> down :) >>>>>>> --The other Monica >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >>>>>>> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the >>>>> relationship >>>>>>> between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by >>> Swedish >>>>>>> preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was >>>>> correct >>>>>>> in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! >>>>>>> Tanks, >>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>>> School of Education >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Beth Ferholt >>>>>> Assistant Professor >>>>>> School of Education >>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>>>> >>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Beth Ferholt >>>> Assistant Professor >>>> School of Education >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >>>> >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Beth Ferholt >> Assistant Professor >> School of Education >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York >> 2900 Bedford Avenue >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 >> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 >> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > From nacho.montero@uam.es Fri Oct 18 09:50:09 2013 From: nacho.montero@uam.es (nacho.montero@uam.es) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:50:09 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: <1382110883.76217.YahooMailNeo@web181204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382110883.76217.YahooMailNeo@web181204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20131018185009.Horde.pMNHC2Aflu1SYWbBZEkjtPA@webmail.uam.es> Hi Beth! How are you doing? It is friday afternoon here in Madrid, there are a lot of things to do but...I have got captured by your message (just as Andy was), and impressed by the other colleagues' answers... In addition to the pleasure of saying Hi to you, I would like to add couple of tip, most in the line of previous messages (Hi Peg!!): First, my colleague Cintia Rodr?guez has made rich description of "triadic" interaccions (adult, baby and joy) where found symbolic uses of the object as early as the begining of the second year. My second tip is logical/methodological: It is nice to realize that you and your teachers are using a view of causal reasoning in terms of just one cause for just an effect, so you would be able to say as Aristotle, "we know a phenomenom when we know its cause". Peg is very lucid when says: "so why prescursor relation between play and symbolic thought?" And you can also add, which type of play for which type of symbolism? (remember Pierce's system of symbols). My last tip, why don't you explore/describe/analyze the developmental theory that your teachers and their children's parents use in everyday activities? Have a nice weekend! NACHO From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 10:15:07 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:15:07 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: <20131018185009.Horde.pMNHC2Aflu1SYWbBZEkjtPA@webmail.uam.es> References: <1382110883.76217.YahooMailNeo@web181204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20131018185009.Horde.pMNHC2Aflu1SYWbBZEkjtPA@webmail.uam.es> Message-ID: Beth, I wonder if there would be anyway to make some of these recordings available to others on XMCA? It would be interesting to crowd-source an analysis of what sounds like really fascinating data that your teachers collected!! (and you could restrict it to a select audience if you'd like - whomever is interested or whomever has the link). And you could by-pass IRB concerns if the people in the videos put the videos up on youtube themselves. People put up video of their kids all the time, so that's kosher. Then once someone puts it up, we could all go and watch. (and if anyone has time, I'm sure there are already videos in existence on youtube that show precisely the kinds of things Beth is talking about - but finding them would be the challenge. Anyone up for that?). Happy to read/watch this conversation... -greg On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:50 AM, wrote: > Hi Beth! > How are you doing? It is friday afternoon here in Madrid, there are a lot > of things to do but...I have got captured by your message (just as Andy > was), and impressed by the other colleagues' answers... > In addition to the pleasure of saying Hi to you, I would like to add > couple of tip, most in the line of previous messages (Hi Peg!!): > First, my colleague Cintia Rodr?guez has made rich description of > "triadic" interaccions (adult, baby and joy) where found symbolic uses of > the object as early as the begining of the second year. > My second tip is logical/methodological: It is nice to realize that you > and your teachers are using a view of causal reasoning in terms of just one > cause for just an effect, so you would be able to say as Aristotle, "we > know a phenomenom when we know its cause". Peg is very lucid when says: "so > why prescursor relation between play and symbolic thought?" > And you can also add, which type of play for which type of symbolism? > (remember Pierce's system of symbols). > My last tip, why don't you explore/describe/analyze the developmental > theory that your teachers and their children's parents use in everyday > activities? > Have a nice weekend! > NACHO > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From carolmacdon@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 10:32:29 2013 From: carolmacdon@gmail.com (Carol Macdonald) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 19:32:29 +0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: <6CD576A8-A16E-4A09-91EC-BE27F6F4967D@gmail.com> References: <6CD576A8-A16E-4A09-91EC-BE27F6F4967D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Beth I think you might want to pick up Andy's point. I used an example of pretend play at one years, with my niece stacking hoops over the stick and when she was finished a set, she pretended to put another one over the hoop and then burst out laughing, aware at some level that she had made a "joke". Her own daughter is now at 3 involved in extended pretend play; she can work out sequences for shopping that even included a detail of swiping your credit card, giving it back and the shopper signing it. So your teachers are absolutely right in what they say. Children can learn the names of letters very easily - after all the word - object (referent)relationship is arbitrary. Perhaps we cold think of the hobby horse -stick as a sign, rather than a symbol? There is probably a conception of symbols that is quite complex - perhaps arbitrariness but some systemic notion implied? I am not sure how, but there would be primitive indicators in sign usage. Perhaps the sign-symbol distinction is crucial here. Extended symbol systems are of course much more difficult to master - for example the difference between able to count, in contrast with one-to-one correspondence. I don't know if this helps. I think we need to interrogate the idea of symbolic development. Carol On 18 October 2013 17:49, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote: > Forgot to attach the article, Ana > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 11:24 AM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane > wrote: > > > Dear Beth, > > > > Great insights!! We are all searching for these answers for quite a > while. > > > > One of the most striking works on the crucial role of play in the > physical and psychological development (and psychological would include > symbolic processes) is the work of Fraser Brown and Sarah Webb on the > children in Romanian orphanages. > > In a nutshell, one can look at it as a cruel natural experiment in > depriving children of adult interaction (but not food and shelter) -- > leading to a total physical and mental retardation, to the point where 10 > year olds physically look like 4 and mentally like one year olds (and not > "normal" one year olds). A play activity of 2 hrs a day with these children > over just a few moths resulted in a visible development of the children -- > both physical and mental. > > The article I am sending cannot present what I saw in the video > documentation that Fraser Brown played in several meetings of the TASP -- > however, this video is not public (Fraser will play it if invited to a > conference, but will not make it available in any other way). > > > > This, of course is not a definitive answer that play is directly > connected to the development of symbolic processes, but it becomes very > palpable that some kind of playful relationships and playful activities are > involved in the development of "higher mental processes". > > > > I also agree with a lot of what Dahlberg and Moss have to say about > developmental orientation leading to a "deficit model" in the approach to > children. And they are right when they provide evidence that even very > little infants and toddlers use incredibly elaborated symbolically rich > ways to create and represent imaginary, play worlds. > > > > However, when it comes to "symbolic processes" I think that the issues > are more complex. For instance, I think that the reaction against the the > connection between play and symbolic processes, is based on rejecting a > simplistic understanding of the symbolic "development" as a development of > an ability to "subsitute" a meaning of an object - for another "meaning". > (Vygotsky's well discussed case of a "horse"-stick). I say "simplistic" -- > in the reference to S. Langer's and Cassirer's studies of symbols their > relationships. The so called "referential function" of the symbols -- to > "point to" or to "stand for" objects/actions etc -- is just the most > rudimentary relationship of any "sign". In that sense, most of the mammals > and even non-mammals develop understanding of simple "signs", that > unequivocally refer to something that they stand for. > > Even Vygotsky in his famous article "The role of play..." said that play > is NOT a symbolic action. ("I believe that play is not symbolic action in > the > > proper sense of the term,..." Vygotsky, The Role of Play in Development, > in Mind in Society, 1978, p. 94). In my dissertation "Metaphor beyond play" > (that you can find on the Academia. com) I have tried to show in what sense > play may "play" a role in the building of the symbolic approach to the > world, self, and the other, as one of the conditions for starting a > symbolic construction. > > In other words, in my opinion "symbolic function" cannot be separated > and isolated as an "unit of analysis" from the experiencing (perezhivanie) > of the relational aspects (postupok) of the immediate local events. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Ana > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote: > > > >> Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain > >> and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work > >> thinking and reading in response! > >> > >> We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, > can > >> you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of > it, > >> also the work on play and narrative development, language development, > and > >> metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting > talk, > >> and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a > >> 2013 literature review ? ). > >> > >> However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > >> > >> The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally > suspicious > >> of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of > the > >> books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > >> developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a > >> deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget > and > >> they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to > >> preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of > >> their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, > or > >> would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > >> > >> In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us > >> that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They > show > >> us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds > are > >> doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > >> presentations to us : ). > >> > >> For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass > was > >> a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. > They > >> showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own > just-two > >> year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, > could > >> identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea > of > >> what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about > why I > >> think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my > >> child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > >> reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really > well > >> to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > >> > >> So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship > >> between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are > >> seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote > >> XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal > experiment > >> that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of > >> course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? > So > >> perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic > thought, > >> playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > >> > >> Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much > >> appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what > we > >> still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more > capable > >> of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very > young, > >> than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which > we > >> were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the > competent > >> toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our > >> reading of VYgotsky on play. > >> > >> Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about > >> seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on > the > >> arts? Or maybe it?s both? > >> > >> THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha >wrote: > >> > >>> Message from Francine Smolucha: > >>> Beth, > >>> I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > >>> development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > >>> Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > >>> Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four > >>> domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While > >>> their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > >>> domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the > children to > >>> use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here > for > >>> a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to > use > >>> symbol systems. > >>>> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > >>>> From: bferholt@gmail.com > >>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > >>>> > >>>> We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And > yes, > >>>> this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think more > >>>> broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are > posing > >>> to > >>>> our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I > think > >>>> we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, > above. > >>>> I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask > >>> why > >>>> we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at > what > >>> it > >>>> does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! > >>> Beth > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha < > lsmolucha@hotmail.com > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha: > >>>>> Beth, > >>>>> According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as > >>>>> riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for > separating > >>>>> meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a > non-replica > >>>>> object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > >>>>> representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, > i. > >>> e., > >>>>> line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical > >>>>> notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that > documented > >>> this > >>>>> progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific > >>>>> components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > >>> 1991documented > >>>>> how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a > >>>>> longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that > the > >>>>> basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another > >>>>> (re-present another)??? > >>>>> Are you thinking of something along these lines? > >>>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > >>>>>> From: bferholt@gmail.com > >>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play > >>> allows > >>>>> for > >>>>>> the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what > >>> this > >>>>>> experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > >>>>>> monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Beth, > >>>>>>> What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship > >>> between > >>>>>>> play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > >>>>> substantiate? Are > >>>>>>> you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The > >>> path > >>>>> is > >>>>>>> not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed > >>>>> larger > >>>>>>> ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic > >>>>> can be > >>>>>>> framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in > >>> hunting > >>>>> it > >>>>>>> down :) > >>>>>>> --The other Monica > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > >>>>>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >>>>>>> Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the > >>>>> relationship > >>>>>>> between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by > >>> Swedish > >>>>>>> preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was > >>>>> correct > >>>>>>> in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! > >>>>>>> Tanks, > >>>>>>> Beth > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue > >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Beth Ferholt > >>>>>> Assistant Professor > >>>>>> School of Education > >>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue > >>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Beth Ferholt > >>>> Assistant Professor > >>>> School of Education > >>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue > >>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >>>> > >>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Beth Ferholt > >> Assistant Professor > >> School of Education > >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York > >> 2900 Bedford Avenue > >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > >> > >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 > >> Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > -- Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin) Developmental psycholinguist Academic, Researcher, and Editor Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa From bazerman@education.ucsb.edu Fri Oct 18 11:13:53 2013 From: bazerman@education.ucsb.edu (Charles Bazerman) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Literacy position K-8 at UCSB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am pleased to announce the approval of this position. Feel free to contact me with questions Chuck Bazerman http://education.ucsb.edu/About/employment.htm Assistant Professor, Literacy Education Department of Education The Department of Education, Gevirtz Graduate School of Education, UC Santa Barbara seeks a faculty member for a tenure-track position in literacy education at the Assistant Professor level. We encourage applications from literacy educators with expertise in grades 3-8 serving diverse populations. The Department of Education has an interdisciplinary faculty with cognitive, linguistic, social, and cultural research programs concerned with diverse learners in educational settings. The Department offers a rich array of opportunities for research, teaching, and program development in an innovative Teacher Education Program, the McEnroe Reading & Language Arts Clinic, partnership schools, and technology-enabled learning environments. Qualifications for the position include: An earned doctorate at the time of employment A record of scholarship related to grades 3-8 teaching and learning of literacy with diverse learners At least three years of teaching grades 3-8 (preferred). Position responsibilities include: Maintaining an active research and publication program Mentoring M.A./M.Ed/Ph.D students Directing theses and dissertations Seeking extramural funding Teaching graduate-level courses in literacy. The University of California Santa Barbara, a land-grant university, is an AAU comprehensive research intensive institution. The department is especially interested in candidates who can contribute to the diversity & excellence of the academic community through research, teaching, & service. UCSB is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Address inquiries to Richard P. Dur?n, Ph.D. Search Committee Chair Department of Education Gevirtz Graduate School of Education Santa Barbara, California 93106 e-mail: duran@education.ucsb.edu Applicants should submit (1) a letter of interest addressing qualifications and interests, (2) current curriculum vitae, (3), three representative research-based articles, and (4) three letters of reference. Applications should be submitted electronically to: https://recruit.ap.ucsb.edu/apply/JPF00259 Review of completed applications will begin January 15, 2014. Anticipated start date is July 1, 2014. From ablunden@mira.net Fri Oct 18 15:51:11 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 09:51:11 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=C3=A7uradi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5261BB5F.8010109@mira.net> Ulvi, the literature on this problem is sooo extensive and sooo complex I am almost lost in trying to respond to your message, the more so because the domain is so contested and aggravated. "Human Rights" has a long history, which I think can be traced back to 1776 and the "Rights of Man and the Citizen" of the American and French Revolution and were ensconced in the founding of the United Nations in 1948. Here "human rights" were raised by advocates of liberalism against repressive or aristocratic regimes governing them. But the first time I recall "human (universal) rights" being counterposed to culturally specific conceptions of right was when Ronald Reagan introduced "human rights" into the discourse of "free trrade" in about 1982. This move reflected the shared interest of US capitalists and their employees to prevent the importation of products of cheap labour. Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew responded with the idea of "Asian Rights" which he claimed represented cultural differences in the conception of right. (also "human values" and "asian values"). So we had perfectly legitimate conceptions promoted for self-serving reactionary motives on both sides of this discussion. At the same time, Reagan was arming the religious Mujaheddin to fight the secular government in Afghanistan. Your observation, that 40 years ago women in Turkey went about their business without wearing veils, is important. Of course, Turkey has had a militantly secularist government since 1922. But even in Cairo or Tehran, it was the same. I have seen a photograph of a market place in Cairo in the 1950s, filled with women doing their shopping, and not a veil in sight, indistinguishable from a market place in London. Why has this happened? I would say that the secular, modernist, socially progressive, nationalist leaderships which led the people of the Arab world in the decades after the Second World War, to free their countries of domination by Western colonialism and imperialism, unfortunately failed to deliver the prosperity and happiness that they had promised. Oddly, even though these leaders were explicitly "anti-western" they were seen as vehicles for modernism. After the defeat of Egypt in its struggle with Israel, Egypt reconciled itself with the West, and Sadat was seen as a representative of the West. The Shah of Iran would be the classic representative of this type. Secularism by means of the torture chamber. Even without the actual overthrow of the "founding fathers" who had fought the colonial powers, these regimes became representatives of "the West"; secularism became identified with foreign domination, and the cause of people's misery. This spread from the Middle East to the European and American metropolis, where it intersected with the discourse of the various emancipatory movements which had grown up in the wake of the Civil Rights and Womens Liberation movements. And this is where the really perverse results came about. Women, blacks, homosexuals, immigrants, etc., etc., all demanded respect for *difference*. Initially these movements had begun with the demand for equality, which was usually taken on the basis of "justice is blind", but developed by separating the notions of equality and sameness, and demanding not that people be treated the same, but be accepted as different. I have friends who fervently support the French line on laiete, which seems to unite native French people from extreme left to extreme right and everything in between. I can see the logic of it. But I think to some extent we have to see the re-assertion of the right to be oppressed by one's own religion, as a *social problem* rather a matter of crime and punishment, or government regulation. It is a tragedy that the great ideals of the Enlightenment have been so discredited in the eyes of those who really need those values and forms of life. But it cannot be resolved by forcefully imposing emancipation. Apologies for all the oversimplification, inaccuracies and omissions in this sketch. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Ulvi ??il wrote: > Dear all, > > For your information. > > http://www.unesco.org/new/en/media-services/single-view/news/interview_with_ioanna_kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ > > > > *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all cultures is a > ?trap? for human rights.* > > **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences should not > cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as they like, *so > long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent > themselves and their children from developing their human potentialities. > The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an attempt to > fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many cultures > have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as an example > polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due to the > importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for human rights. > What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. Cultural > norms must be evaluated. * > > *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of schoolchildren or > employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* > > **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no girls wearing > a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. *Today there is > a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that prevent > people, and children in particular, from developing as human beings. This > revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect for all > cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through education. The > concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply consist in > the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a negative principle > which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do not determine > the establishment of social relations and the administration of public > affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human rights and the > reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of > schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not aware that they > push children to give priority to one of their various collective > identities, that they push them to give priority to their cultural identity > and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote > discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all this. The > premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms are deduced > are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. So to better > protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of their > concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing > internationally. > > From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Fri Oct 18 16:33:49 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 02:33:49 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?iso-8859-1?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=E7uradi?= In-Reply-To: <5261BB5F.8010109@mira.net> References: <5261BB5F.8010109@mira.net> Message-ID: Thanks Andy. And I can say the same for Turkey: Because secular and elitist republic did not feed the masses economically and socially also, these masses could be easily directed against the bourgeois , elitist republic. And now, we live the collapse of this republic. Ulvi 2013/10/19 Andy Blunden > Ulvi, > the literature on this problem is sooo extensive and sooo complex I am > almost lost in trying to respond to your message, the more so because the > domain is so contested and aggravated. > > "Human Rights" has a long history, which I think can be traced back to > 1776 and the "Rights of Man and the Citizen" of the American and French > Revolution and were ensconced in the founding of the United Nations in > 1948. Here "human rights" were raised by advocates of liberalism against > repressive or aristocratic regimes governing them. But the first time I > recall "human (universal) rights" being counterposed to culturally specific > conceptions of right was when Ronald Reagan introduced "human rights" into > the discourse of "free trrade" in about 1982. This move reflected the > shared interest of US capitalists and their employees to prevent the > importation of products of cheap labour. Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew responded > with the idea of "Asian Rights" which he claimed represented cultural > differences in the conception of right. (also "human values" and "asian > values"). So we had perfectly legitimate conceptions promoted for > self-serving reactionary motives on both sides of this discussion. At the > same time, Reagan was arming the religious Mujaheddin to fight the secular > government in Afghanistan. > > Your observation, that 40 years ago women in Turkey went about their > business without wearing veils, is important. Of course, Turkey has had a > militantly secularist government since 1922. But even in Cairo or Tehran, > it was the same. I have seen a photograph of a market place in Cairo in the > 1950s, filled with women doing their shopping, and not a veil in sight, > indistinguishable from a market place in London. Why has this happened? I > would say that the secular, modernist, socially progressive, nationalist > leaderships which led the people of the Arab world in the decades after the > Second World War, to free their countries of domination by Western > colonialism and imperialism, unfortunately failed to deliver the prosperity > and happiness that they had promised. Oddly, even though these leaders were > explicitly "anti-western" they were seen as vehicles for modernism. After > the defeat of Egypt in its struggle with Israel, Egypt reconciled itself > with the West, and Sadat was seen as a representative of the West. The Shah > of Iran would be the classic representative of this type. Secularism by > means of the torture chamber. Even without the actual overthrow of the > "founding fathers" who had fought the colonial powers, these regimes became > representatives of "the West"; secularism became identified with foreign > domination, and the cause of people's misery. > > This spread from the Middle East to the European and American metropolis, > where it intersected with the discourse of the various emancipatory > movements which had grown up in the wake of the Civil Rights and Womens > Liberation movements. And this is where the really perverse results came > about. Women, blacks, homosexuals, immigrants, etc., etc., all demanded > respect for *difference*. Initially these movements had begun with the > demand for equality, which was usually taken on the basis of "justice is > blind", but developed by separating the notions of equality and sameness, > and demanding not that people be treated the same, but be accepted as > different. > > I have friends who fervently support the French line on laiete, which > seems to unite native French people from extreme left to extreme right and > everything in between. I can see the logic of it. But I think to some > extent we have to see the re-assertion of the right to be oppressed by > one's own religion, as a *social problem* rather a matter of crime and > punishment, or government regulation. > > It is a tragedy that the great ideals of the Enlightenment have been so > discredited in the eyes of those who really need those values and forms of > life. But it cannot be resolved by forcefully imposing emancipation. > > Apologies for all the oversimplification, inaccuracies and omissions in > this sketch. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> For your information. >> >> http://www.unesco.org/new/en/**media-services/single-view/** >> news/interview_with_ioanna_**kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ >> >> >> >> *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all cultures is a >> ?trap? for human rights.* >> >> **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences should not >> cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as they like, >> *so >> >> long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent >> themselves and their children from developing their human potentialities. >> The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an attempt to >> fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many cultures >> have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as an example >> polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due to the >> importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for human rights. >> What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. Cultural >> norms must be evaluated. * >> >> *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of schoolchildren or >> employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* >> >> **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no girls wearing >> a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. *Today there >> is >> >> a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that prevent >> people, and children in particular, from developing as human beings. This >> revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect for all >> cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through education. The >> concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply consist in >> the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a negative principle >> which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do not >> determine >> the establishment of social relations and the administration of public >> affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human rights and the >> reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of >> schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not aware that they >> push children to give priority to one of their various collective >> identities, that they push them to give priority to their cultural >> identity >> and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote >> discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all this. The >> >> premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms are deduced >> are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. So to better >> protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of their >> concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing >> internationally. >> >> >> > > From ablunden@mira.net Fri Oct 18 16:43:26 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 10:43:26 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=C3=A7uradi?= In-Reply-To: References: <5261BB5F.8010109@mira.net> Message-ID: <5261C79E.60208@mira.net> And of course, as Vygotskyans, we understand the importance of symbols. We had a discussion once before, Ulvi, about why in a country like the US there is such a large percentage of people who reject the idea of Evolution of Species, and accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of Genesis, despite the US being such a modern, educated, technological society. My answer then was that in the US, belief or not in Evolution has become an integral part of a political agenda. You have the same problem in Turkey. People do not evaluate a belief "on the basis of evidence," but rather from the standpoint of the great social projects to which they are committed. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thanks Andy. And I can say the same for Turkey: Because secular and > elitist republic did not feed the masses economically and socially > also, these masses could be easily directed against the bourgeois , > elitist republic. And now, we live the collapse of this republic. > > Ulvi > > 2013/10/19 Andy Blunden > > > Ulvi, > the literature on this problem is sooo extensive and sooo complex > I am almost lost in trying to respond to your message, the more so > because the domain is so contested and aggravated. > > "Human Rights" has a long history, which I think can be traced > back to 1776 and the "Rights of Man and the Citizen" of the > American and French Revolution and were ensconced in the founding > of the United Nations in 1948. Here "human rights" were raised by > advocates of liberalism against repressive or aristocratic regimes > governing them. But the first time I recall "human (universal) > rights" being counterposed to culturally specific conceptions of > right was when Ronald Reagan introduced "human rights" into the > discourse of "free trrade" in about 1982. This move reflected the > shared interest of US capitalists and their employees to prevent > the importation of products of cheap labour. Singapore's Lee Kuan > Yew responded with the idea of "Asian Rights" which he claimed > represented cultural differences in the conception of right. (also > "human values" and "asian values"). So we had perfectly legitimate > conceptions promoted for self-serving reactionary motives on both > sides of this discussion. At the same time, Reagan was arming the > religious Mujaheddin to fight the secular government in Afghanistan. > > Your observation, that 40 years ago women in Turkey went about > their business without wearing veils, is important. Of course, > Turkey has had a militantly secularist government since 1922. But > even in Cairo or Tehran, it was the same. I have seen a photograph > of a market place in Cairo in the 1950s, filled with women doing > their shopping, and not a veil in sight, indistinguishable from a > market place in London. Why has this happened? I would say that > the secular, modernist, socially progressive, nationalist > leaderships which led the people of the Arab world in the decades > after the Second World War, to free their countries of domination > by Western colonialism and imperialism, unfortunately failed to > deliver the prosperity and happiness that they had promised. > Oddly, even though these leaders were explicitly "anti-western" > they were seen as vehicles for modernism. After the defeat of > Egypt in its struggle with Israel, Egypt reconciled itself with > the West, and Sadat was seen as a representative of the West. The > Shah of Iran would be the classic representative of this type. > Secularism by means of the torture chamber. Even without the > actual overthrow of the "founding fathers" who had fought the > colonial powers, these regimes became representatives of "the > West"; secularism became identified with foreign domination, and > the cause of people's misery. > > This spread from the Middle East to the European and American > metropolis, where it intersected with the discourse of the various > emancipatory movements which had grown up in the wake of the Civil > Rights and Womens Liberation movements. And this is where the > really perverse results came about. Women, blacks, homosexuals, > immigrants, etc., etc., all demanded respect for *difference*. > Initially these movements had begun with the demand for equality, > which was usually taken on the basis of "justice is blind", but > developed by separating the notions of equality and sameness, and > demanding not that people be treated the same, but be accepted as > different. > > I have friends who fervently support the French line on laiete, > which seems to unite native French people from extreme left to > extreme right and everything in between. I can see the logic of > it. But I think to some extent we have to see the re-assertion of > the right to be oppressed by one's own religion, as a *social > problem* rather a matter of crime and punishment, or government > regulation. > > It is a tragedy that the great ideals of the Enlightenment have > been so discredited in the eyes of those who really need those > values and forms of life. But it cannot be resolved by forcefully > imposing emancipation. > > Apologies for all the oversimplification, inaccuracies and > omissions in this sketch. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Ulvi ??il wrote: > > Dear all, > > For your information. > > http://www.unesco.org/new/en/media-services/single-view/news/interview_with_ioanna_kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ > > > > *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all > cultures is a > ?trap? for human rights.* > > **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences > should not > cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as > they like, *so > > long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent > themselves and their children from developing their human > potentialities. > The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an > attempt to > fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many > cultures > have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as > an example > polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due > to the > importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for > human rights. > What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. > Cultural > norms must be evaluated. * > > *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of > schoolchildren or > employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* > > **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no > girls wearing > a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. > *Today there is > > a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that > prevent > people, and children in particular, from developing as human > beings. This > revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect > for all > cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through > education. The > concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply > consist in > the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a > negative principle > which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do > not determine > the establishment of social relations and the administration > of public > affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human > rights and the > reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of > schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not > aware that they > push children to give priority to one of their various collective > identities, that they push them to give priority to their > cultural identity > and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote > discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all > this. The > > premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms > are deduced > are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. > So to better > protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of > their > concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing > internationally. > > > > > From lsmolucha@hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 19:32:04 2013 From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com (larry smolucha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 21:32:04 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , Message-ID: Message from Francine: Beth, I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over the past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a time when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had to buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained credibility. It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and then shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as a sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the towering intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze). Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object substitutions at age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass as a key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of life, does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget. As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of the blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a door perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the toddler say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the door? Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such as turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of the door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly, naming and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading the children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend play that was scaffolded by the adults. In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from 14 months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14 months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as if to drink (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible substance'). The gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with an imaginary 'ring' would be coded. In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at the invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated with Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book titled Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play). Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that Bert van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship between play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very narrow review of just Activity Theory based studies. Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of Chicago. I will see what I can do to makeit more readily available. > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200 > From: bferholt@gmail.com > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this chain > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at work > thinking and reading in response! > > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before -- Francine, can > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of it, > also the work on play and narrative development, language development, and > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting talk, > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive (a > 2013 literature review ? ). > > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma: > > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally suspicious > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of the > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports a > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before Piaget and > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared to > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because of > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children, or > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down. > > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing us > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They show > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds are > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long > presentations to us : ). > > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass was > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside. They > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own just-two > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year, could > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an idea of > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about why I > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in my > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really well > to believe it ... and I did, and I do. > > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we wrote > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal experiment > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) . Of > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right? So > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic thought, > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto ? hmmm. > > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be much > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending what we > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more capable > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very young, > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in which we > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the competent > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our > reading of VYgotsky on play. > > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky ? It may be less about > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis on the > arts? Or maybe it?s both? > > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha wrote: > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > Beth, > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological). > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these four > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of Chicago.While > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the children to > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential here for > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning to use > > symbol systems. > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200 > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful. And yes, > > > this is what we are thinking about. Your response makes me think more > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are posing > > to > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ... I think > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question, above. > > > I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need to ask > > why > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at what > > it > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank you! > > Beth > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha > >wrote: > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha: > > > > Beth, > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play (such as > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a horse) are the pivot for separating > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a non-replica > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in drawings, i. > > e., > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and numerical > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that documented > > this > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on specific > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago > > 1991documented > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't that the > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for another > > > > (re-present another)??? > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines? > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200 > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that play > > allows > > > > for > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea what > > this > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is fine! Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica < > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the relationship > > between > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to > > > > substantiate? Are > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of research? The > > path > > > > is > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts encompassed > > > > larger > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on this topic > > > > can be > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience in > > hunting > > > > it > > > > > > down :) > > > > > > --The other Monica > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the > > > > relationship > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged by > > Swedish > > > > > > preschool teachers. Is there an experiment that shows Vygotsky was > > > > correct > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship? We can't find any! > > > > > > Tanks, > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > > School of Education > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Beth Ferholt > > > > > Assistant Professor > > > > > School of Education > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Beth Ferholt > > > Assistant Professor > > > School of Education > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816 > > > > > > > > -- > Beth Ferholt > Assistant Professor > School of Education > Brooklyn College, City University of New York > 2900 Bedford Avenue > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889 > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu > Phone: (718) 951-5205 > Fax: (718) 951-4816 From haydizulfei@rocketmail.com Sun Oct 20 03:03:01 2013 From: haydizulfei@rocketmail.com (Haydi Zulfei) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Prof=2E_Ionna_Ku=C3=A7uradi?= In-Reply-To: References: <5261BB5F.8010109@mira.net> Message-ID: <1382263381.55620.YahooMailNeo@web172306.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Dear Ulvi - Capital , when facing the terrible backwardness of the countries of the Mideast (Tribalism , Clan Type Institutional Governance , long-lasting Feudal inheritance and their contradictory desire to emerge as Full Nations like what they saw in the Original West) , was too cunning and too treacherous not to try to succeed in presenting them with distorted capitalist infrastructure (base) and thereof with distorted social relations (remnants of pre-capitalist relations and backward ideologies or backward understanding of ideologies plus so-called progressive ! (as mere masks and imitations) ideologies of whom you have called as the Bourgois and ruling or elite oligarchy) . In this , the West was even ready to prevent Nationalist (local capitalists) groups from participation in the organizational agendas and social co-operation . She , for a long time , preferred to have Big Land-Owners in her bosom rather the Nationalists . I apologize I cannot come up with the historical evidence here . But when forced , she even ordered the agrarian reforms to be carried out and tried to draw the former Land-Owners to invest their money and remaining properties (still huge) in the advanced technological projects . She was too careful with the mentalities of the people not to get advanced , to render them stagnant as it were . Contradictions were to be solved . Technology and reformism demanded civil rights and popular democratic institutions proportionate to them . Capital's benefit demanded people still kept alienated from their genuine identities and national interests . This proved to end in revolutions . This time , Capital tried to curb the revolutions and to gradually liquidate them and to keep the mob to their former stance but to keep the intellectuals aloof and to make them creep to their corners and now it does . So many radios and TVs and the Mass Media and satellites are thus missioned . Here , too many Turkish TV Serials have penetrated their way to the corners of our society . I wonder if any original progressive ones are on display in your own country . Without any exception , these serials display the power and authority of the KHANS (Masters) over people's affairs . It's terrible if the phenomenon relates the Truth or the facts .? You do know people , when disturbed and ready to mobilize , move through their labyrinths of their mentalities and subjectivities . Mentalities are hard-fabricated and endure for hundreds and thousands of years . Our societies demand movement to their roots but , alas , this move is destined to pass through the dark tunnels of the minds . For you is the necessity to show the true path , to enlighten , to get Lady with the Lamp , to unite , to abandon pretentions of being the European full Citizens . This is unreachable . This is a historical long-lasting fact not to be realized through orders and circulations . Have a look at the Eastern Europe . Revival of the Nation is more crucial than false alignment . Tomorrow might be too late . Whether this bad or that good tradition (cultural norms) should be kept or discarded will get realized automatically through genuine Development out of itself not through external means and , I think , rituals and traditions are alterable but universal humanitarian norms at each epoch or era might be in accord or discord with these deep-rooted traditions . The fluidity yet relative constancy of the universal humanitarian principles is more envisioning . Just Mideasterner Haydi ?? ________________________________ From: Ulvi ??il To: ablunden@mira.net; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" Sent: Saturday, 19 October 2013, 3:03:49 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Prof. Ionna Ku?uradi Thanks Andy. And I can say the same for Turkey: Because secular and elitist republic did not feed the masses economically and socially also, these masses could be easily directed against the bourgeois , elitist republic. And now, we live the collapse of this republic. Ulvi 2013/10/19 Andy Blunden > Ulvi, > the literature on this problem is sooo extensive and sooo complex I am > almost lost in trying to respond to your message, the more so because the > domain is so contested and aggravated. > > "Human Rights" has a long history, which I think can be traced back to > 1776 and the "Rights of Man and the Citizen" of the American and French > Revolution and were ensconced in the founding of the United Nations in > 1948. Here "human rights" were raised by advocates of liberalism against > repressive or aristocratic regimes governing them. But the first time I > recall "human (universal) rights" being counterposed to culturally specific > conceptions of right was when Ronald Reagan introduced "human rights" into > the discourse of "free trrade" in about 1982. This move reflected the > shared interest of US capitalists and their employees to prevent the > importation of products of cheap labour. Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew responded > with the idea of "Asian Rights" which he claimed represented cultural > differences in the conception of right. (also "human values" and "asian > values"). So we had perfectly legitimate conceptions promoted for > self-serving reactionary motives on both sides of this discussion. At the > same time, Reagan was arming the religious Mujaheddin to fight the secular > government in Afghanistan. > > Your observation, that 40 years ago women in Turkey went about their > business without wearing veils, is important. Of course, Turkey has had a > militantly secularist government since 1922. But even in Cairo or Tehran, > it was the same. I have seen a photograph of a market place in Cairo in the > 1950s, filled with women doing their shopping, and not a veil in sight, > indistinguishable from a market place in London. Why has this happened? I > would say that the secular, modernist, socially progressive, nationalist > leaderships which led the people of the Arab world in the decades after the > Second World War, to free their countries of domination by Western > colonialism and imperialism, unfortunately failed to deliver the prosperity > and happiness that they had promised. Oddly, even though these leaders were > explicitly "anti-western" they were seen as vehicles for modernism. After > the defeat of Egypt in its struggle with Israel, Egypt reconciled itself > with the West, and Sadat was seen as a representative of the West. The Shah > of Iran would be the classic representative of this type. Secularism by > means of the torture chamber. Even without the actual overthrow of the > "founding fathers" who had fought the colonial powers, these regimes became > representatives of "the West"; secularism became identified with foreign > domination, and the cause of people's misery. > > This spread from the Middle East to the European and American metropolis, > where it intersected with the discourse of the various emancipatory > movements which had grown up in the wake of the Civil Rights and Womens > Liberation movements. And this is where the really perverse results came > about. Women, blacks, homosexuals, immigrants, etc., etc., all demanded > respect for *difference*. Initially these movements had begun with the > demand for equality, which was usually taken on the basis of "justice is > blind", but developed by separating the notions of equality and sameness, > and demanding not that people be treated the same, but be accepted as > different. > > I have friends who fervently support the French line on laiete, which > seems to unite native French people from extreme left to extreme right and > everything in between. I can see the logic of it. But I think to some > extent we have to see the re-assertion of the right to be oppressed by > one's own religion, as a *social problem* rather a matter of crime and > punishment, or government regulation. > > It is a tragedy that the great ideals of the Enlightenment have been so > discredited in the eyes of those who really need those values and forms of > life. But it cannot be resolved by forcefully imposing emancipation. > > Apologies for all the oversimplification, inaccuracies and omissions in > this sketch. > > Andy > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Ulvi ??il wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> For your information. >> >> http://www.unesco.org/new/en/**media-services/single-view/** >> news/interview_with_ioanna_**kucuradi_turkish_philosopher/ >> >> >> >> *You have even said that the promotion of respect for all cultures is a >> ?trap? for human rights.* >> >> **The differences of cultures is a fact. But these differences should not >> cause discrimination. I have nothing against people living as they like, >> *so >> >> long as their world views, ways of living and norms do not prevent >> themselves and their children from developing their human potentialities. >> The unconditional promotion of respect for all cultures as an attempt to >> fight discrimination is well-minded but very problematic. Many cultures >> have norms that are incompatible with human rights ? take as an example >> polygamy or blood feud. This escapes attention, probably due to the >> importance of culture in the singular. That is a trap for human rights. >> What we need to respect are human beings ? not cultural norms. Cultural >> norms must be evaluated. * >> >> *What is, for instance, your stand on the claim of schoolchildren or >> employees to carry symbols of religious conscience?* >> >> **When I was a student more than 40 years ago, there were no girls wearing >> a scarf in Turkey, neither in school nor in the university. *Today there >> is >> >> a revival, all over the world, of world views and norms that prevent >> people, and children in particular, from developing as human beings. This >> revival is closely connected with the promotion of ?respect for all >> cultures?. The best way to solve this problem is through education. The >> concept of la?cit? is often misunderstood. It does not simply consist in >> the separation of religion and the State. La?cit? is a negative principle >> which demands that religious and cultural norms in general do not >> determine >> the establishment of social relations and the administration of public >> affairs. This is why la?cit? is a precondition for human rights and the >> reason why it is very important. Those who agree with the claim of >> schoolchildren to carry religious symbols are probably not aware that they >> push children to give priority to one of their various collective >> identities, that they push them to give priority to their cultural >> identity >> and not their human identity, and that by doing this they promote >> discrimination.* There is a philosophical problem behind all this. The >> >> premises from which universal human rights and cultural norms are deduced >> are different, and so are the ways in which they are deduced. So to better >> protect human rights we need a philosophical understanding of their >> concepts and foundations. Unfortunately, I still see it missing >> internationally. >> >> >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 11:29:43 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 11:29:43 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Leontyev's activities In-Reply-To: References: <5202B8CC.3040502@mira.net> <52030FD3.5010807@mira.net> <520444BA.2000808@mira.net> <520460F0.5030506@mira.net> <19E63C50-A0D2-4A0F-BBA7-63853414FDAA@gmail.com> <1376330299002.45087158@boxbe> <8D095F39A49B639-E9C-23436@webmail-d214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Very Brave of you to respond to Sukanta, Huw. Very daunting question, Sukanta. There is a special issue of the journal, Mind, Culture, and Activity theory a couple of years ago that is devoted to the study of Kurt Lewin's action theory and the socio-cultural-historical school. This is a contemporary topic of concern. Do you have access to the journal? mike On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Activity theory implicates a holistic developmental paradigm frequently > focused upon the social genesis of mind. Cognitive psychology is an > umbrella term that typically implicates a much weaker "present competence" > paradigm and simpler set of practices, principally attending to > individual's "processing" in relation to objects of interest, that are > typically ignorant of the profound issues addressed in activity theory. > However, if you wanted to you could situate activity theory within > cognitive psychology as it is concerned with the genesis of > cognition >(which > cognitive psychology typically is not). > > If you do the reading I think you'll find that there are no "basic > differences" that would be worth bothering with. You are better off asking > "What are the assumptions of these theories and what do they set out to > do." > > Huw > > > > On 13 October 2013 07:21, Sukanta Majumdar > wrote: > > > Hello > > Will anybody in this group kindly tell me what is the basic difference > > among Activity theory, Cognitive Psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field > Theory? > > I am not from Psychology background, but interested to learn about these > > for human activity purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sukanta Majumdar, PhD > > Assistant Professor > > School of Planning and Architecture, Bhopal > > Transit Campus: > > MANIT campus, Sports Complex, > > Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, India 462051. > > sukantamajumdar@aim.com > > sukanta@spabhopal.ac.in > > www.spabhopal.ac.in > > Mo. No: +91-9479910018. > > Ph. No: +91-755-2670910-ext 238. > > Fax No: +91-755-2670908. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 14:50:40 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 22:50:40 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Leontyev's activities In-Reply-To: References: <5202B8CC.3040502@mira.net> <52030FD3.5010807@mira.net> <520444BA.2000808@mira.net> <520460F0.5030506@mira.net> <19E63C50-A0D2-4A0F-BBA7-63853414FDAA@gmail.com> <1376330299002.45087158@boxbe> <8D095F39A49B639-E9C-23436@webmail-d214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On 20 October 2013 19:29, mike cole wrote: > Very Brave of you to respond to Sukanta, Huw. > Very daunting question, Sukanta. > It beats the alternative. In developmental psychology we trust. H. > > There is a special issue of the journal, Mind, Culture, and Activity theory > a couple > of years ago that is devoted to the study of Kurt Lewin's action theory and > the > socio-cultural-historical school. This is a contemporary topic of concern. > > Do you have access to the journal? > mike > > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Huw Lloyd >wrote: > > > Activity theory implicates a holistic developmental paradigm frequently > > focused upon the social genesis of mind. Cognitive psychology is an > > umbrella term that typically implicates a much weaker "present > competence" > > paradigm and simpler set of practices, principally attending to > > individual's "processing" in relation to objects of interest, that are > > typically ignorant of the profound issues addressed in activity theory. > > However, if you wanted to you could situate activity theory within > > cognitive psychology as it is concerned with the genesis of > > cognition > >(which > > cognitive psychology typically is not). > > > > If you do the reading I think you'll find that there are no "basic > > differences" that would be worth bothering with. You are better off > asking > > "What are the assumptions of these theories and what do they set out to > > do." > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > On 13 October 2013 07:21, Sukanta Majumdar > > wrote: > > > > > Hello > > > Will anybody in this group kindly tell me what is the basic difference > > > among Activity theory, Cognitive Psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field > > Theory? > > > I am not from Psychology background, but interested to learn about > these > > > for human activity purposes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sukanta Majumdar, PhD > > > Assistant Professor > > > School of Planning and Architecture, Bhopal > > > Transit Campus: > > > MANIT campus, Sports Complex, > > > Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, India 462051. > > > sukantamajumdar@aim.com > > > sukanta@spabhopal.ac.in > > > www.spabhopal.ac.in > > > Mo. No: +91-9479910018. > > > Ph. No: +91-755-2670910-ext 238. > > > Fax No: +91-755-2670908. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 15:20:03 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 23:20:03 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Leontyev's activities In-Reply-To: References: <5202B8CC.3040502@mira.net> <52030FD3.5010807@mira.net> <520444BA.2000808@mira.net> <520460F0.5030506@mira.net> <19E63C50-A0D2-4A0F-BBA7-63853414FDAA@gmail.com> <1376330299002.45087158@boxbe> <8D095F39A49B639-E9C-23436@webmail-d214.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On 20 October 2013 22:50, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > On 20 October 2013 19:29, mike cole wrote: > >> Very Brave of you to respond to Sukanta, Huw. >> Very daunting question, Sukanta. >> > > It beats the alternative. In developmental psychology we trust. > > H. > > http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/16/ghost-cloud-russian-missile-test_n_4106769.html > >> There is a special issue of the journal, Mind, Culture, and Activity >> theory >> a couple >> of years ago that is devoted to the study of Kurt Lewin's action theory >> and >> the >> socio-cultural-historical school. This is a contemporary topic of concern. >> >> Do you have access to the journal? >> mike >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Huw Lloyd > >wrote: >> >> > Activity theory implicates a holistic developmental paradigm frequently >> > focused upon the social genesis of mind. Cognitive psychology is an >> > umbrella term that typically implicates a much weaker "present >> competence" >> > paradigm and simpler set of practices, principally attending to >> > individual's "processing" in relation to objects of interest, that are >> > typically ignorant of the profound issues addressed in activity theory. >> > However, if you wanted to you could situate activity theory within >> > cognitive psychology as it is concerned with the genesis of >> > cognition> > >(which >> > cognitive psychology typically is not). >> > >> > If you do the reading I think you'll find that there are no "basic >> > differences" that would be worth bothering with. You are better off >> asking >> > "What are the assumptions of these theories and what do they set out to >> > do." >> > >> > Huw >> > >> > >> > >> > On 13 October 2013 07:21, Sukanta Majumdar >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Hello >> > > Will anybody in this group kindly tell me what is the basic difference >> > > among Activity theory, Cognitive Psychology and K.L. Lewin's Field >> > Theory? >> > > I am not from Psychology background, but interested to learn about >> these >> > > for human activity purposes. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Sukanta Majumdar, PhD >> > > Assistant Professor >> > > School of Planning and Architecture, Bhopal >> > > Transit Campus: >> > > MANIT campus, Sports Complex, >> > > Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh, India 462051. >> > > sukantamajumdar@aim.com >> > > sukanta@spabhopal.ac.in >> > > www.spabhopal.ac.in >> > > Mo. No: +91-9479910018. >> > > Ph. No: +91-755-2670910-ext 238. >> > > Fax No: +91-755-2670908. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:22:16 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 21:22:16 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Do adults play? Message-ID: If so, what does it look like? I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few of the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in academia. So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is there a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there must be earlier examples of this type of play). Any ideas? -greg -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:59:34 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 20:59:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I am left wondering if we need to define what we mean by *play* What comes to mind is the relation to *metaphor* *analogy* and *models* which can be seen to be the *background* to the *systematic models* that become preoccupied with foundations and certainty. If models *mediate* experience then the seriousness that comes with foundational yearnings may be leading to literalness and formalism and disciplines as foundational constructions. Then *play* for adults may be the exploration of the texture of these foundational *models* AS *MODELS*. I'm circling around the relation of the literal as serious and the metaphorical as play. Just thinking out loud. Bahktin's perspective suggests that our social relations always find ways to break up the literalness and return to the realm of adult *play* as entering the imaginal realms. Larry On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > If so, what does it look like? > > I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked > about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few of > the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in > academia. > > So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only > interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive > world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is there > a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: > what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? > > So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? > > Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know > enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." > (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's > Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes > beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there > must be earlier examples of this type of play). > > Any ideas? > -greg > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Sun Oct 20 20:59:34 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 20:59:34 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I am left wondering if we need to define what we mean by *play* What comes to mind is the relation to *metaphor* *analogy* and *models* which can be seen to be the *background* to the *systematic models* that become preoccupied with foundations and certainty. If models *mediate* experience then the seriousness that comes with foundational yearnings may be leading to literalness and formalism and disciplines as foundational constructions. Then *play* for adults may be the exploration of the texture of these foundational *models* AS *MODELS*. I'm circling around the relation of the literal as serious and the metaphorical as play. Just thinking out loud. Bahktin's perspective suggests that our social relations always find ways to break up the literalness and return to the realm of adult *play* as entering the imaginal realms. Larry On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > If so, what does it look like? > > I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked > about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few of > the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in > academia. > > So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only > interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive > world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is there > a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: > what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? > > So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? > > Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know > enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." > (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's > Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes > beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there > must be earlier examples of this type of play). > > Any ideas? > -greg > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From helen.grimmett@monash.edu Sun Oct 20 21:14:40 2013 From: helen.grimmett@monash.edu (Helen Grimmett) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:14:40 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Lois Holzman writes about the importance of play across the lifespan - particularly using theatrical/improvisatory performance play as tools for development. Carrie Lobman has also written about her improv work with teachers. Cheers, Helen Dr Helen Grimmett Lecturer, Student Adviser, Faculty of Education, Building 902, Room 159 Monash University, Berwick campus Phone: 9904 7171 On 21 October 2013 14:22, Greg Thompson wrote: > If so, what does it look like? > > I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked > about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few of > the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in > academia. > > So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only > interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive > world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is there > a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: > what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? > > So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? > > Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know > enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." > (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's > Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes > beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there > must be earlier examples of this type of play). > > Any ideas? > -greg > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Sun Oct 20 23:52:22 2013 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (vwilk) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:52:22 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5264CF26.6070202@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Not so very long ago, October 13 in fact, Douglas Williams in answer to Caitlin's request turned his hand to a Socratic dialogue, and Phillip White followed up the same day by recalling Bateson's metalogue, "Why do Frenchmen." I myself have been working on a General Systems Theory approach to allegoresis and hermeneutics -- they said it can't be done! So, just like the guy who built "Swamp Castle" in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I just have to do it to show it can be done! In this discussion, there is a problem in the narrowness of the focus on what can be seen in the pre-verbal activities of one year olds. The discussion must be given a framework to make sense. We have to define the context in general as we home in on the "specific strip" that is to be our focus. Well, framing turns out to be quite a big deal because we have to say "framings", realizing that there is going to be a large amount of overlap, and some things will not become coherent until they are viewed through multiple frames. Gregory Bateson spoke of multiple versions of the world and multiple versions of relationship. Quite incidently, I recently saw a youtube of Allan G. Hunter discussing "Brothers Grim vs. Disney: Recovering the Wisdom Lost to Commercialism. Greg Thompson mentions Bakhtin's work with Rabelais, but we can go back to Golden Ass of Apuleius, Boccaccio, and Chaucer and for story games and not leave out mimicking, parody, satire, and other forms of representation. I put "specific strip" in quotations because I am invoking Goffman's Frame Analysis, the introduction to which in all deep scholarly seriousness is a hilarious tour de force on parenthetic reasoning. Fairy Tales and Fantasy are as much for adults, or more so, as children, and all human behavior, if it can be observed and described, can then be discussed, and who is doing the discussing? A linguist, a psychologist, a philosopher, an economist, and a physicist? We could go to Northrup Frye's Anatomy of Criticism to set up a provisional frame work, then give John Dewey a chance to frame the situation. New information would appear in the moire pattern. You would need abduction to borrow the knowledge of observed processes from one context for use in another, and yet this works. We can take Caillois' Les Jeux et Les Hommes (1952) as a starting point, although, as Phillip White pointed out Huizinga stepped in earlier with "homo ludens" (1938). Then, of course, everything about Games with players comes in with von Neumann's Theory of Games and Economic behavior. You see, as a General Systems Theorist, I see that the theories bound together by correspondences and interconnections require that a discussion begin with start point, for example, a provisional definition of the system, a sketching in, knowing that the mapping would be revised communally, though "the final (provisional!) report" would have the name of the researcher/s. Nonetheless, the system will be in a context and have subsystems and immediate, proximate, and global contexts. Moreover, we had better define the "system" and clarify the nature of the "strip" which we are discussing, and then see what wealth of insight is produced by a refining procedure and perhaps a collection of keywords. These terms I use, "strip" "keyword" "moire pattern" are a collection of random "tools". I'm sure we have gotten closer already to a discussion of play in adulthood than indicated by Greg. We have wider scope of vision, learning, and experience among ourselves than indicated by this plea for "leads on the role of play in adulthood" ... an anthropological and educational framing WITH wide general reading might help us establish a clearer sense of where we have gotten to and where we are going. (2013/10/21 12:22), Greg Thompson wrote: > If so, what does it look like? > > I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked > about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few of > the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in > academia. > > So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only > interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive > world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is there > a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: > what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? > > So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? > > Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know > enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." > (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's > Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes > beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there > must be earlier examples of this type of play). > > Any ideas? > -greg > > From barowy@lesley.edu Mon Oct 21 06:28:15 2013 From: barowy@lesley.edu (Barowy, William) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:28:15 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Feynman played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI --- William Barowy, Ph. D. Associate Professor, Lesley University 29 Everett Street, Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it." --Pablo Picasso From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 11:34:29 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 19:34:29 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 October 2013 14:28, Barowy, William wrote: > Feynman played: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI > > > It's not clear (from the video) whether the anthropomorphising is rather a rhetorical expression of his own personal joy in the task. But, personally, I think that is beside the point. It is the plasticity of play that is (for me) more interesting, and the effortful thinking he refers to is theorised (e.g. Baldwin) to be the application of this plasticity to objective circumstances. Huw > --- > William Barowy, Ph. D. > Associate Professor, > Lesley University > 29 Everett Street, > Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 > Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ > Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ > > "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how > to do it." > --Pablo Picasso > > > From jkindred@cnr.edu Mon Oct 21 11:51:51 2013 From: jkindred@cnr.edu (Kindred, Jessica) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 18:51:51 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> I wanted to point to a recent study by Dr. Jerome Siegel of U.C.L.A. that has implications about the brain and play, suggesting that a neurotransmitter that is much reduced in brains of people (and dogs) with narcolepsy has also come to be seen as a key to joy: "Release a dog into a yard to run, dig and play, and its hypocretin levels soar. But force the same dog to run on a treadmill, and its hypocretin levels remain flat." (http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/from-a-sleep-study-clues-to-happiness/?_r=0). I think it speaks to the distinction between play and other activities that some might see as leisure-like and picks up on the joy factor that Feynman is also clearly illustrating. More in line with Activity Theory though, I also wanted to add to the discussion of play a few footnotes about research done at the Workplace Technology Research Group at City University of New York, stemming originally from Sylvia Scribner's Laboratory for Cognitive Studies of Work. We made work simulation games that engaged workers in play in order to cultivate paradigm shifts in working groups with the implementation of new technologies and/or organizational reorganizations. The games were highly designed through ethnographic research about the actual workplaces; and they were structured to enable departure from the everyday while triggering default patterns of workplace behavior in the context of play so that organizational problems could be recognized by groups of participants, and new solutions could be constructed; toy-size objects resembled the real workplace products in some obvious but untechnical ways that used the doubling potential of language and enabled a point of view on the whole. And they were fun. I wrote a paper years back based on the research we were doing, called "8/18/97 Bite me": Resistance in learning and work (Mind, Culture, and Activity Volume 6, Issue 3, 1999), where there is an extensive description of the game process developed for workers in NYCTransit Bus front line maintenance depots. Similarly my dissertation focused on possessive expression in participant writing and psychological ownership in a game with gear manufacturing managers. [Possessive Expression at Work: "those Machines are Mine" (CUNY 2005) reprinted as Belonging(s) at Work: Psychological ownership at the end of the industrial age (VDM Verlag, September 6, 2009)]. Key to all of that work was the game as play, as fun and experimental spaces where individuals could engage each other in a very different way than they did in their day to day work roles. I realize games are not the essence of play, but in adult life, games that free adults from the constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and innovation can be very playful and productive in a developmental sense. I am not sure if the hypocretin levels rose while our participants played the work games, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were a lot higher than when these same people returned to their toolboxes and desks. And I did see the rise of possessive expression... Now I work with adult college students and incorporate games into my classrooms all the time. Usually these experiences take the form of the Jigsaw classroom model as a way to have students "Be the Brain" together by each researching a piece and coming together to learn about each other (as in "I'm Amygdala..."); or be the history of psychology together by each researching a theorist's life and work (as in "I'm Vygotsky"); or be a manufacturing company together using a nametag production game I developed (Workgame.org). Jessica Kindred, Ph.D. Faculty, Psychology School of New Resources The College of New Rochelle 1368 Fulton Street Brooklyn, NY 11216 718 638 2500 646 725 4459 jkindred@cnr.edu -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Barowy, William Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:28 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? Feynman played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI --- William Barowy, Ph. D. Associate Professor, Lesley University 29 Everett Street, Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it." --Pablo Picasso From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 12:04:57 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:04:57 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, another interesting point is the "as if" quality of play which carries over into social relations, e.g. the liberal regard of others as if we are all equal. Huw On 21 October 2013 19:34, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > On 21 October 2013 14:28, Barowy, William wrote: > >> Feynman played: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI >> >> >> > It's not clear (from the video) whether the anthropomorphising is rather a > rhetorical expression of his own personal joy in the task. > > But, personally, I think that is beside the point. It is the plasticity > of play that is (for me) more interesting, and the effortful thinking he > refers to is theorised (e.g. Baldwin) to be the application of this > plasticity to objective circumstances. > > Huw > > > >> --- >> William Barowy, Ph. D. >> Associate Professor, >> Lesley University >> 29 Everett Street, >> Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 >> Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ >> Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ >> >> "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how >> to do it." >> --Pablo Picasso >> >> >> > From barowy@lesley.edu Mon Oct 21 13:41:56 2013 From: barowy@lesley.edu (Barowy, William) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:41:56 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about symbolic play? Imaginary and imperceivable jiggling atoms stand in for what you can feel (hot/cold). --- William Barowy, Ph. D. Associate Professor, Lesley University 29 Everett Street, Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ ?I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it.? --Pablo Picasso On 10/21/13 2:34 PM, "Huw Lloyd" wrote: >On 21 October 2013 14:28, Barowy, William wrote: > >> Feynman played: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI >> >> >> >It's not clear (from the video) whether the anthropomorphising is rather a >rhetorical expression of his own personal joy in the task. > >But, personally, I think that is beside the point. It is the plasticity >of >play that is (for me) more interesting, and the effortful thinking he >refers to is theorised (e.g. Baldwin) to be the application of this >plasticity to objective circumstances. > >Huw > > > >> --- >> William Barowy, Ph. D. >> Associate Professor, >> Lesley University >> 29 Everett Street, >> Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 >> Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ >> Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ >> >> "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how >> to do it." >> --Pablo Picasso >> >> >> From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 13:56:00 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:56:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, Sure, we need to keep a little play in play, but at the same time, we have to have some idea of what we are talking about. Otherwise you'd have no way of making sense of my claim "Adults never play." (or alternatively, "All adults ever do is play"). If we don't define play at least in some nominal sense (even if only by what it isn't, or by examples of what it is), then how can we say anything about "play". I'm not interested in being some kind of definition-tyrant, I just want to know what we are talking about - or what we might could be talking about? Is that still too much to ask? -greg On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg, > I am left wondering if we need to define what we mean by *play* What comes > to mind is the relation to *metaphor* *analogy* and *models* which can be > seen to be the *background* to the *systematic models* that become > preoccupied with foundations and certainty. > If models *mediate* experience then the seriousness that comes with > foundational yearnings may be leading to literalness and formalism and > disciplines as foundational constructions. > Then *play* for adults may be the exploration of the texture of these > foundational *models* AS *MODELS*. > I'm circling around the relation of the literal as serious and the > metaphorical as play. > Just thinking out loud. Bahktin's perspective suggests that our social > relations always find ways to break up the literalness and return to the > realm of adult *play* as entering the imaginal realms. > Larry > > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > If so, what does it look like? > > > > I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked > > about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few > of > > the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in > > academia. > > > > So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only > > interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive > > world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is > there > > a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: > > what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? > > > > So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? > > > > Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know > > enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." > > (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's > > Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes > > beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there > > must be earlier examples of this type of play). > > > > Any ideas? > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 13:56:00 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 14:56:00 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Larry, Sure, we need to keep a little play in play, but at the same time, we have to have some idea of what we are talking about. Otherwise you'd have no way of making sense of my claim "Adults never play." (or alternatively, "All adults ever do is play"). If we don't define play at least in some nominal sense (even if only by what it isn't, or by examples of what it is), then how can we say anything about "play". I'm not interested in being some kind of definition-tyrant, I just want to know what we are talking about - or what we might could be talking about? Is that still too much to ask? -greg On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg, > I am left wondering if we need to define what we mean by *play* What comes > to mind is the relation to *metaphor* *analogy* and *models* which can be > seen to be the *background* to the *systematic models* that become > preoccupied with foundations and certainty. > If models *mediate* experience then the seriousness that comes with > foundational yearnings may be leading to literalness and formalism and > disciplines as foundational constructions. > Then *play* for adults may be the exploration of the texture of these > foundational *models* AS *MODELS*. > I'm circling around the relation of the literal as serious and the > metaphorical as play. > Just thinking out loud. Bahktin's perspective suggests that our social > relations always find ways to break up the literalness and return to the > realm of adult *play* as entering the imaginal realms. > Larry > > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Greg Thompson >wrote: > > > If so, what does it look like? > > > > I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked > > about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few > of > > the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in > > academia. > > > > So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only > > interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive > > world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is > there > > a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: > > what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? > > > > So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? > > > > Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know > > enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." > > (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's > > Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes > > beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there > > must be earlier examples of this type of play). > > > > Any ideas? > > -greg > > > > > > -- > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor > > Department of Anthropology > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > > Brigham Young University > > Provo, UT 84602 > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:18:31 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:18:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <5264CF26.6070202@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> References: <5264CF26.6070202@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> Message-ID: Valerie, Thanks much for this reply (as well as your earlier one on the other thread!). Your email makes me want to say what I just playfully said to Larry, that indeed, "all adults ever do is play." Is it not adults who are constantly at play? We adults inhabit these imagined worlds in which we fancy the Emperor to be wearing an array of beautiful and exquisite vestements. Along comes the foolish child, incapable of real play, shouting "But he isn't wearing anything at all!" Foolish child, you will soon enough to learn to play like the rest of us. A wider scope of vision indeed - so wide that we can even see what is not really there! Such vision! Mind the gap, greg On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:52 AM, vwilk wrote: > Not so very long ago, October 13 in fact, Douglas Williams in answer to > Caitlin's request turned his hand to a Socratic dialogue, and Phillip White > followed up the same day by recalling Bateson's metalogue, "Why do > Frenchmen." I myself have been working on a General Systems Theory > approach to allegoresis and hermeneutics -- they said it can't be done! > So, just like the guy who built "Swamp Castle" in Monty Python and the > Holy Grail, I just have to do it to show it can be done! In this > discussion, there is a problem in the narrowness of the focus on what can > be seen in the pre-verbal activities of one year olds. > > The discussion must be given a framework to make sense. We have to define > the context in general as we home in on the "specific strip" that is to be > our focus. Well, framing turns out to be quite a big deal because we have > to say "framings", realizing that there is going to be a large amount of > overlap, and some things will not become coherent until they are viewed > through multiple frames. Gregory Bateson spoke of multiple versions of the > world and multiple versions of relationship. Quite incidently, I recently > saw a youtube of Allan G. Hunter discussing "Brothers Grim vs. Disney: > Recovering the Wisdom Lost to Commercialism. Greg Thompson mentions > Bakhtin's work with Rabelais, but we can go back to Golden Ass of Apuleius, > Boccaccio, and Chaucer and for story games and not leave out mimicking, > parody, satire, and other forms of representation. I put "specific strip" > in quotations because I am invoking Goffman's Frame Analysis, the > introduction to which in all deep scholarly seriousness is a hilarious > tour de force on parenthetic reasoning. > > Fairy Tales and Fantasy are as much for adults, or more so, as children, > and all human behavior, if it can be observed and described, can then be > discussed, and who is doing the discussing? A linguist, a psychologist, a > philosopher, an economist, and a physicist? We could go to Northrup Frye's > Anatomy of Criticism to set up a provisional frame work, then give John > Dewey a chance to frame the situation. New information would appear in the > moire pattern. You would need abduction to borrow the knowledge of observed > processes from one context for use in another, and yet this works. We can > take Caillois' Les Jeux et Les Hommes (1952) as a starting point, although, > as Phillip White pointed out Huizinga stepped in earlier with "homo ludens" > (1938). Then, of course, everything about Games with players comes in with > von Neumann's Theory of Games and Economic behavior. You see, as a General > Systems Theorist, I see that the theories bound together by correspondences > and interconnections require that a discussion begin with start point, for > example, a provisional definition of the system, a sketching in, knowing > that the mapping would be revised communally, though "the final > (provisional!) report" would have the name of the researcher/s. > Nonetheless, the system will be in a context and have subsystems and > immediate, proximate, and global contexts. Moreover, we had better define > the "system" and clarify the nature of the "strip" which we are discussing, > and then see what wealth of insight is produced by a refining procedure and > perhaps a collection of keywords. These terms I use, "strip" "keyword" > "moire pattern" are a collection of random "tools". > > I'm sure we have gotten closer already to a discussion of play in > adulthood than indicated by Greg. We have wider scope of vision, learning, > and experience among ourselves than indicated by this plea for "leads on > the role of play in adulthood" ... an anthropological and educational > framing WITH wide general reading might help us establish a clearer sense > of where we have gotten to and where we are going. > > > > > (2013/10/21 12:22), Greg Thompson wrote: > >> If so, what does it look like? >> >> I looked back at the suggestions sent to Caitlin Wubbena who had asked >> about the role of play in places like academia. It seemed like very few of >> the responses spoke to play in adulthood and fewer spoke to play in >> academia. >> >> So I'm wondering is the problem here that CHAT theorists are only >> interested in "play" as a thing that gets the child into a more expansive >> world (cf. Beth's concurrent thread on play among 1 year-olds)? Or is >> there >> a literature on "play" across the lifespan? And to my opening question: >> what would "play" look like in adolescence or adulthood? >> >> So, does anyone have any good leads on the role of play in adulthood? >> >> Seems like Bakhtin's work on Rabelais might be a start? But I don't know >> enough about his work to know if Bakhtin was using the concept of "play." >> (and other great satirists come to mind as well - Laurence Sterne's >> Tristram Shandy seems a nice early example of "play" in writing that goes >> beyond mere "comedy" and into a really complex form of "play", but there >> must be earlier examples of this type of play). >> >> Any ideas? >> -greg >> >> >> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From bruce@brucerob.eu Mon Oct 21 14:20:23 2013 From: bruce@brucerob.eu (Bruce Robinson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 22:20:23 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Historical Materialism London Conference 2013 In-Reply-To: <52659A07.5040804@brucerob.eu> References: <52659A07.5040804@brucerob.eu> Message-ID: <52659A97.3070306@brucerob.eu> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Date: From: The following papers will be of interest to XMCAers and feature a few familiar names. *Activity Theory: from Lev* *Vygotsky to Evald Ilyenkov* Chair: Adam Hanieh Alex Levant, The Subject of Activity Theory: A CHAT with Ilyenkov Vesa Oittinen Peter Jones, Vygotsky, Marxism and Pavlov's Reflexology Brecht de Smet, Labor Struggles in Sadat City: Workplaces in/of Revolution *Soviet Marxism and Socialist* *Humanism* Chair: Gregory Schwartz Hannah Proctor, Abstraction:Utopian or Scientific? SovietPsychologists in Central Asia inthe wake of the First Five Year Plan The full programme is on the HM website. Sadly, I will miss this conference for the first time in years as I have to be in Germany. Bruce R From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:21:31 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:21:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks William, this is a great lead. I hadn't thought of Feynman, but yes, he's a perfect fit. But I still don't know what he fits into (why do we call what he does play? b.c. he is doing the unexpected? that which a physicist is not "supposed" to do? -greg On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Barowy, William wrote: > Feynman played: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI > > > --- > William Barowy, Ph. D. > Associate Professor, > Lesley University > 29 Everett Street, > Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 > Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ > Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ > > "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how > to do it." > --Pablo Picasso > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:25:31 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:25:31 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Huw, might I add that during this discussion of adult play, your profile pic on google has magically changed from playful (man's face half shaded by the sun) to serious (straight on shot of man-in-suit). Why so serious? -greg On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote: > Oh, another interesting point is the "as if" quality of play which carries > over into social relations, e.g. the liberal regard of others as if we are > all equal. > > Huw > > > On 21 October 2013 19:34, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 21 October 2013 14:28, Barowy, William wrote: > > > >> Feynman played: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI > >> > >> > >> > > It's not clear (from the video) whether the anthropomorphising is rather > a > > rhetorical expression of his own personal joy in the task. > > > > But, personally, I think that is beside the point. It is the plasticity > > of play that is (for me) more interesting, and the effortful thinking he > > refers to is theorised (e.g. Baldwin) to be the application of this > > plasticity to objective circumstances. > > > > Huw > > > > > > > >> --- > >> William Barowy, Ph. D. > >> Associate Professor, > >> Lesley University > >> 29 Everett Street, > >> Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 > >> Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ > >> Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ > >> > >> "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how > >> to do it." > >> --Pablo Picasso > >> > >> > >> > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:39:36 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:39:36 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Jessica, Awesome work that you do. From dissertation onward - really cool. (I would say something about "Kindred spirits" but I'm sure you've heard that 100 times before and so it would hardly seem playful at all. Play is in the eyes of the beholder?). Games are a nice example - different from "real life" (although we might say, paraphrasing Shakespeare, "all the world's a game"). Your comment that "in adult life, games that free adults from the constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and innovation can be very playful and productive in a developmental sense" is starting to make me think that the question of "play" is really quite fundamentally tied to ontological questions about the nature of reality. Where I am getting confused is when I put this together with Valerie's email using Bateson and Goffman. In that view, the "reality" that you mention is really already a socially transformed reality, a frame of one sort or another that is "more than" reality itself. So it seems like the very concept of "play" and "fun" and "games" seems to construct the very reality that it purports to subvert. That is, "play" makes reality "real" by opposing it. Didn't see that coming, but that is where I seem to be going, although I'm not yet able to make sense of it. Played out, greg On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica wrote: > I wanted to point to a recent study by Dr. Jerome Siegel of U.C.L.A. that > has implications about the brain and play, suggesting that a > neurotransmitter that is much reduced in brains of people (and dogs) with > narcolepsy has also come to be seen as a key to joy: "Release a dog into a > yard to run, dig and play, and its hypocretin levels soar. But force the > same dog to run on a treadmill, and its hypocretin levels remain flat." ( > http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/from-a-sleep-study-clues-to-happiness/?_r=0 > ). > I think it speaks to the distinction between play and other activities > that some might see as leisure-like and picks up on the joy factor that > Feynman is also clearly illustrating. > > More in line with Activity Theory though, I also wanted to add to the > discussion of play a few footnotes about research done at the Workplace > Technology Research Group at City University of New York, stemming > originally from Sylvia Scribner's Laboratory for Cognitive Studies of Work. > We made work simulation games that engaged workers in play in order to > cultivate paradigm shifts in working groups with the implementation of new > technologies and/or organizational reorganizations. The games were highly > designed through ethnographic research about the actual workplaces; and > they were structured to enable departure from the everyday while triggering > default patterns of workplace behavior in the context of play so that > organizational problems could be recognized by groups of participants, and > new solutions could be constructed; toy-size objects resembled the real > workplace products in some obvious but untechnical ways that used the > doubling potential of language and enabled a point of view on the whole. > And they were fun. I wrote a paper years back based on the research we were > doing, called "8/18/97 Bite me": Resistance in learning and work (Mind, > Culture, and Activity Volume 6, Issue 3, 1999), where there is an extensive > description of the game process developed for workers in NYCTransit Bus > front line maintenance depots. Similarly my dissertation focused on > possessive expression in participant writing and psychological ownership in > a game with gear manufacturing managers. [Possessive Expression at Work: > "those Machines are Mine" (CUNY 2005) reprinted as Belonging(s) at Work: > Psychological ownership at the end of the industrial age (VDM Verlag, > September 6, 2009)]. > > Key to all of that work was the game as play, as fun and experimental > spaces where individuals could engage each other in a very different way > than they did in their day to day work roles. I realize games are not the > essence of play, but in adult life, games that free adults from the > constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and innovation can > be very playful and productive in a developmental sense. I am not sure if > the hypocretin levels rose while our participants played the work games, > but I wouldn't be surprised if they were a lot higher than when these same > people returned to their toolboxes and desks. And I did see the rise of > possessive expression... > > Now I work with adult college students and incorporate games into my > classrooms all the time. Usually these experiences take the form of the > Jigsaw classroom model as a way to have students "Be the Brain" together by > each researching a piece and coming together to learn about each other (as > in "I'm Amygdala..."); or be the history of psychology together by each > researching a theorist's life and work (as in "I'm Vygotsky"); or be a > manufacturing company together using a nametag production game I developed > (Workgame.org). > > > > Jessica Kindred, Ph.D. > Faculty, Psychology > School of New Resources > The College of New Rochelle > 1368 Fulton Street > Brooklyn, NY 11216 > 718 638 2500 > 646 725 4459 > jkindred@cnr.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Barowy, William > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:28 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? > > Feynman played: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI > > > --- > William Barowy, Ph. D. > Associate Professor, > Lesley University > 29 Everett Street, > Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 > Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ > Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ > > "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how > to do it." > --Pablo Picasso > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Mon Oct 21 14:44:42 2013 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:44:42 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>, Message-ID: perhaps, Greg: That is, "play" makes reality "real" by performing it. phillip From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 15:13:32 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:13:32 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 October 2013 22:25, Greg Thompson wrote: > Huw, might I add that during this discussion of adult play, your profile > pic on google has magically changed from playful (man's face half shaded by > the sun) to serious (straight on shot of man-in-suit). > Why so serious? > Why stop at either/or. ;) At least its not a fish decorating your inbox. H. > -greg > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Huw Lloyd >wrote: > > > Oh, another interesting point is the "as if" quality of play which > carries > > over into social relations, e.g. the liberal regard of others as if we > are > > all equal. > > > > Huw > > > > > > On 21 October 2013 19:34, Huw Lloyd wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 21 October 2013 14:28, Barowy, William wrote: > > > > > >> Feynman played: > > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > It's not clear (from the video) whether the anthropomorphising is > rather > > a > > > rhetorical expression of his own personal joy in the task. > > > > > > But, personally, I think that is beside the point. It is the > plasticity > > > of play that is (for me) more interesting, and the effortful thinking > he > > > refers to is theorised (e.g. Baldwin) to be the application of this > > > plasticity to objective circumstances. > > > > > > Huw > > > > > > > > > > > >> --- > > >> William Barowy, Ph. D. > > >> Associate Professor, > > >> Lesley University > > >> 29 Everett Street, > > >> Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 > > >> Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ > > >> Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ > > >> > > >> "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn > how > > >> to do it." > > >> --Pablo Picasso > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From goncu@uic.edu Mon Oct 21 15:19:45 2013 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:19:45 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>, Message-ID: <284710936a15342112c7a656efbb6222.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Adults we have been studying said similar things. Tony Perone who is on this board and leading the work can speak to this issue. Also, as Helen mentioned before Holzman and Lobman have been doing work on the play of adolescents and adults are here. Finally, Vera and Keith Sawyer have written about play and its benefits.. best, ag On Mon, October 21, 2013 4:44 pm, White, Phillip wrote: > > > perhaps, Greg: That is, "play" makes reality "real" > by performing it. > > phillip > > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Educational Psychology College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm (312) 996-5259 From jkindred@cnr.edu Mon Oct 21 16:31:07 2013 From: jkindred@cnr.edu (Kindred, Jessica) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:31:07 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Greg, Yes, I fully agree about the reality construction through play. In fact, though, children's pretend play is the means by which they rehearse and enter the socially constructed realities such as playing school and the rest. With adults, the socially constructed reality can be so limiting, though. I focused on the nature of resistance in working with the NYCTransit mechanics because in fact the game led and let them engage their opposition to the reality of work and its conditions. As they articulated their opposition, they constructed the very tools that were being introduced to them to document their work. Before the workshops, mechanics would often say that they should not type in their own work record, suggesting that was an administrative job. However, in the resistance elicited in play they gave countless examples of how such other-made records could contribute to the problems of them not having the parts they need to fix a bus or not having good enough information about repairs done. Their resistance through the game led to the inevitable conclusion that they had much to say, that they were the best authors of their actions, that they would be better served by reviewing a record created by the one closest to the work, and that typing was a small obstacle to their authorship. Once their goal was clear to them, typing was no obstacle, even with numb fingertips from years of engine burns. So yes, as you say, "the very concept of "play" and "fun" and "games" seems to construct the very reality that it purports to subvert." Real subversion is not play; it is work! Jessie -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 5:40 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? Jessica, Awesome work that you do. From dissertation onward - really cool. (I would say something about "Kindred spirits" but I'm sure you've heard that 100 times before and so it would hardly seem playful at all. Play is in the eyes of the beholder?). Games are a nice example - different from "real life" (although we might say, paraphrasing Shakespeare, "all the world's a game"). Your comment that "in adult life, games that free adults from the constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and innovation can be very playful and productive in a developmental sense" is starting to make me think that the question of "play" is really quite fundamentally tied to ontological questions about the nature of reality. Where I am getting confused is when I put this together with Valerie's email using Bateson and Goffman. In that view, the "reality" that you mention is really already a socially transformed reality, a frame of one sort or another that is "more than" reality itself. So it seems like the very concept of "play" and "fun" and "games" seems to construct the very reality that it purports to subvert. That is, "play" makes reality "real" by opposing it. Didn't see that coming, but that is where I seem to be going, although I'm not yet able to make sense of it. Played out, greg On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica wrote: > I wanted to point to a recent study by Dr. Jerome Siegel of U.C.L.A. > that has implications about the brain and play, suggesting that a > neurotransmitter that is much reduced in brains of people (and dogs) > with narcolepsy has also come to be seen as a key to joy: "Release a > dog into a yard to run, dig and play, and its hypocretin levels soar. > But force the same dog to run on a treadmill, and its hypocretin > levels remain flat." ( > http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/from-a-sleep-study-clues-to-h > appiness/?_r=0 > ). > I think it speaks to the distinction between play and other activities > that some might see as leisure-like and picks up on the joy factor > that Feynman is also clearly illustrating. > > More in line with Activity Theory though, I also wanted to add to the > discussion of play a few footnotes about research done at the > Workplace Technology Research Group at City University of New York, > stemming originally from Sylvia Scribner's Laboratory for Cognitive Studies of Work. > We made work simulation games that engaged workers in play in order to > cultivate paradigm shifts in working groups with the implementation of > new technologies and/or organizational reorganizations. The games were > highly designed through ethnographic research about the actual > workplaces; and they were structured to enable departure from the > everyday while triggering default patterns of workplace behavior in > the context of play so that organizational problems could be > recognized by groups of participants, and new solutions could be > constructed; toy-size objects resembled the real workplace products in > some obvious but untechnical ways that used the doubling potential of language and enabled a point of view on the whole. > And they were fun. I wrote a paper years back based on the research we > were doing, called "8/18/97 Bite me": Resistance in learning and work > (Mind, Culture, and Activity Volume 6, Issue 3, 1999), where there is > an extensive description of the game process developed for workers in > NYCTransit Bus front line maintenance depots. Similarly my > dissertation focused on possessive expression in participant writing > and psychological ownership in a game with gear manufacturing managers. [Possessive Expression at Work: > "those Machines are Mine" (CUNY 2005) reprinted as Belonging(s) at Work: > Psychological ownership at the end of the industrial age (VDM Verlag, > September 6, 2009)]. > > Key to all of that work was the game as play, as fun and experimental > spaces where individuals could engage each other in a very different > way than they did in their day to day work roles. I realize games are > not the essence of play, but in adult life, games that free adults > from the constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and > innovation can be very playful and productive in a developmental > sense. I am not sure if the hypocretin levels rose while our > participants played the work games, but I wouldn't be surprised if > they were a lot higher than when these same people returned to their > toolboxes and desks. And I did see the rise of possessive expression... > > Now I work with adult college students and incorporate games into my > classrooms all the time. Usually these experiences take the form of > the Jigsaw classroom model as a way to have students "Be the Brain" > together by each researching a piece and coming together to learn > about each other (as in "I'm Amygdala..."); or be the history of > psychology together by each researching a theorist's life and work (as > in "I'm Vygotsky"); or be a manufacturing company together using a > nametag production game I developed (Workgame.org). > > > > Jessica Kindred, Ph.D. > Faculty, Psychology > School of New Resources > The College of New Rochelle > 1368 Fulton Street > Brooklyn, NY 11216 > 718 638 2500 > 646 725 4459 > jkindred@cnr.edu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Barowy, William > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:28 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? > > Feynman played: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI > > > --- > William Barowy, Ph. D. > Associate Professor, > Lesley University > 29 Everett Street, > Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 > Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ > Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ > > "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn > how to do it." > --Pablo Picasso > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp Mon Oct 21 16:51:40 2013 From: vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp (vwilk@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:51:40 +0900 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: =?utf-8?q?Do_adults_play=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>, Message-ID: <20131021235140.000061AC.0220@inf.shizuoka.ac.jp> It seems to me that the whole thing about development (finding out what you can do) starts at ground level with analog and preference. Like, don 't like. Then one starts to reach, try succeed or get burned, compare with others. Then it's a simple step to general mimicry and representation for all humans and animals ... I feel a definition of "play" would be incomplete without "joie de vivre " "con brio" "exuberance" Looking at sciences, "play in the system" has to do with elasticity, versatility, adjustment. But does play have to be "fun"? Gregory Bateson would put a table of random numbers in the Holy of Holies, reminding that life does go on, in the dialectic between rigor and imagination. Valerie ----- Original Message ----- > > > perhaps, Greg: That is, "play" makes reality "real" > by performing it. > > phillip > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Mon Oct 21 16:57:05 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:57:05 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> Jessica, So maybe we could say: "Whereas kids merely play at play, adults live it!" and, yes, i like your narrative of childhood play becoming the basis for entrance into a constructed social reality. The mystifying moment happens somewhere in middle childhood/adolescence when the world of play takes on new life as "reality". Mystifying indeed, and just as fascinating! this suggests then that adult play can become binding, appearing to become "reality" (depending on who(se) rule(s)...). When that happens, one often finds it important to recover our human ability not just to play but to play with play. Perhaps there is a reading of cultural history as well as a succession of playing with social forms until that new social form takes on a too burdensome reality, and then comes time to play with that form. Poof! revolution. Hoping the whole show doesn't fall apart. Greg Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2013, at 5:31 PM, "Kindred, Jessica" wrote: > Greg, Yes, I fully agree about the reality construction through play. In fact, though, children's pretend play is the means by which they rehearse and enter the socially constructed realities such as playing school and the rest. With adults, the socially constructed reality can be so limiting, though. I focused on the nature of resistance in working with the NYCTransit mechanics because in fact the game led and let them engage their opposition to the reality of work and its conditions. As they articulated their opposition, they constructed the very tools that were being introduced to them to document their work. Before the workshops, mechanics would often say that they should not type in their own work record, suggesting that was an administrative job. However, in the resistance elicited in play they gave countless examples of how such other-made records could contribute to the problems of them not having the parts they need to fix a bus or not having good enough information about repairs done. Their resistance through the game led to the inevitable conclusion that they had much to say, that they were the best authors of their actions, that they would be better served by reviewing a record created by the one closest to the work, and that typing was a small obstacle to their authorship. Once their goal was clear to them, typing was no obstacle, even with numb fingertips from years of engine burns. So yes, as you say, "the very concept of "play" and "fun" and "games" seems to construct the very reality that it purports to subvert." Real subversion is not play; it is work! > > Jessie > > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 5:40 PM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? > > Jessica, > Awesome work that you do. From dissertation onward - really cool. > (I would say something about "Kindred spirits" but I'm sure you've heard that 100 times before and so it would hardly seem playful at all. Play is in the eyes of the beholder?). > > Games are a nice example - different from "real life" (although we might say, paraphrasing Shakespeare, "all the world's a game"). > > Your comment that "in adult life, games that free adults from the constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and innovation can be very playful and productive in a developmental sense" is starting to make me think that the question of "play" is really quite fundamentally tied to ontological questions about the nature of reality. > > Where I am getting confused is when I put this together with Valerie's email using Bateson and Goffman. In that view, the "reality" that you mention is really already a socially transformed reality, a frame of one sort or another that is "more than" reality itself. So it seems like the very concept of "play" and "fun" and "games" seems to construct the very reality that it purports to subvert. That is, "play" makes reality "real" > by opposing it. > > Didn't see that coming, but that is where I seem to be going, although I'm not yet able to make sense of it. > > Played out, > greg > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Kindred, Jessica wrote: > >> I wanted to point to a recent study by Dr. Jerome Siegel of U.C.L.A. >> that has implications about the brain and play, suggesting that a >> neurotransmitter that is much reduced in brains of people (and dogs) >> with narcolepsy has also come to be seen as a key to joy: "Release a >> dog into a yard to run, dig and play, and its hypocretin levels soar. >> But force the same dog to run on a treadmill, and its hypocretin >> levels remain flat." ( >> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/from-a-sleep-study-clues-to-h >> appiness/?_r=0 >> ). >> I think it speaks to the distinction between play and other activities >> that some might see as leisure-like and picks up on the joy factor >> that Feynman is also clearly illustrating. >> >> More in line with Activity Theory though, I also wanted to add to the >> discussion of play a few footnotes about research done at the >> Workplace Technology Research Group at City University of New York, >> stemming originally from Sylvia Scribner's Laboratory for Cognitive Studies of Work. >> We made work simulation games that engaged workers in play in order to >> cultivate paradigm shifts in working groups with the implementation of >> new technologies and/or organizational reorganizations. The games were >> highly designed through ethnographic research about the actual >> workplaces; and they were structured to enable departure from the >> everyday while triggering default patterns of workplace behavior in >> the context of play so that organizational problems could be >> recognized by groups of participants, and new solutions could be >> constructed; toy-size objects resembled the real workplace products in >> some obvious but untechnical ways that used the doubling potential of language and enabled a point of view on the whole. >> And they were fun. I wrote a paper years back based on the research we >> were doing, called "8/18/97 Bite me": Resistance in learning and work >> (Mind, Culture, and Activity Volume 6, Issue 3, 1999), where there is >> an extensive description of the game process developed for workers in >> NYCTransit Bus front line maintenance depots. Similarly my >> dissertation focused on possessive expression in participant writing >> and psychological ownership in a game with gear manufacturing managers. [Possessive Expression at Work: >> "those Machines are Mine" (CUNY 2005) reprinted as Belonging(s) at Work: >> Psychological ownership at the end of the industrial age (VDM Verlag, >> September 6, 2009)]. >> >> Key to all of that work was the game as play, as fun and experimental >> spaces where individuals could engage each other in a very different >> way than they did in their day to day work roles. I realize games are >> not the essence of play, but in adult life, games that free adults >> from the constraints of reality and enable experimentation, fun, and >> innovation can be very playful and productive in a developmental >> sense. I am not sure if the hypocretin levels rose while our >> participants played the work games, but I wouldn't be surprised if >> they were a lot higher than when these same people returned to their >> toolboxes and desks. And I did see the rise of possessive expression... >> >> Now I work with adult college students and incorporate games into my >> classrooms all the time. Usually these experiences take the form of >> the Jigsaw classroom model as a way to have students "Be the Brain" >> together by each researching a piece and coming together to learn >> about each other (as in "I'm Amygdala..."); or be the history of >> psychology together by each researching a theorist's life and work (as >> in "I'm Vygotsky"); or be a manufacturing company together using a >> nametag production game I developed (Workgame.org). >> >> >> >> Jessica Kindred, Ph.D. >> Faculty, Psychology >> School of New Resources >> The College of New Rochelle >> 1368 Fulton Street >> Brooklyn, NY 11216 >> 718 638 2500 >> 646 725 4459 >> jkindred@cnr.edu >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Barowy, William >> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 9:28 AM >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? >> >> Feynman played: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3pYRn5j7oI >> >> >> --- >> William Barowy, Ph. D. >> Associate Professor, >> Lesley University >> 29 Everett Street, >> Cambridge, MA 02138-2790 >> Desktop: http://bill.barowy.net/ >> Mobile: http://bill.barowy.net/m/ >> >> "I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn >> how to do it." >> --Pablo Picasso > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > From Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu Mon Oct 21 17:35:25 2013 From: Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu (White, Phillip) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 18:35:25 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. Valerie and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality" - whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and 'imaginary' . it's all the same. so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a theoretical framework. phillip From garry.odell@uon.edu.au Mon Oct 21 18:54:22 2013 From: garry.odell@uon.edu.au (Garry O'Dell) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 01:54:22 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Chat Diagrams Message-ID: <6ACAA5F18ADE8A4098A26ACF64AE3EA7283BA1B7@BN1PRD0211MB663.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Dear All, I am a later in life arrival to the academic world and in particular to Cultural Historical Activity Theory. I am using CHAT as a conceptual framework to explore and understand the activity of land use assessment for events such as markets, festivals, rallies and the like in Australia, with a focus on the activity as it is applied by local government in New South Wales. My level of theoretical thinking is naive and would benefit from some elder input. My intital confusion is the Engestrom triangle. Its depiction seems to vary from a triangle with lines to double headed arrows depicting some type of relationships. Is there an agreed depiction of the triangle or is this subject to dispute and conjecture? My reading to date supports the view that learning is the key focus of CHAT with some excursions into organisation. Given the wealth of knowledge in the XCMA group, I would be interested to determine whether any researcher is currently using CHAT on land use decision making. Regards, Garry O'Dell Ph. 0412439589 Doctoral Candidate Newcastle Business School Faculty of Business and Law University of Newcastle NSW Australia From ablunden@mira.net Mon Oct 21 22:46:22 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 16:46:22 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Chat Diagrams In-Reply-To: <6ACAA5F18ADE8A4098A26ACF64AE3EA7283BA1B7@BN1PRD0211MB663.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <6ACAA5F18ADE8A4098A26ACF64AE3EA7283BA1B7@BN1PRD0211MB663.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <5266112E.10603@mira.net> Garry, see http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Engestrom/expanding/ch2.htm Figure 2.6 is the original. And in this chapter you can follow the derivation of the triangle, in which is makes a lot of sense than if you just come across it as a finished product. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Garry O'Dell wrote: > Dear All, > > I am a later in life arrival to the academic world and in particular to Cultural Historical Activity Theory. > > I am using CHAT as a conceptual framework to explore and understand the activity of land use assessment for events such as markets, festivals, rallies and the like in Australia, with a focus on the activity as it is applied by local government in New South Wales. My level of theoretical thinking is naive and would benefit from some elder input. > > My intital confusion is the Engestrom triangle. > > Its depiction seems to vary from a triangle with lines to double headed arrows depicting some type of relationships. Is there an agreed depiction of the triangle or is this subject to dispute and conjecture? > > My reading to date supports the view that learning is the key focus of CHAT with some excursions into organisation. Given the wealth of knowledge in the XCMA group, I would be interested to determine whether any researcher is currently using CHAT on land use decision making. > > > Regards, > > > > Garry O'Dell > > Ph. 0412439589 > > Doctoral Candidate > Newcastle Business School > Faculty of Business and Law > University of Newcastle NSW Australia > > From djwdoc@yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 01:31:53 2013 From: djwdoc@yahoo.com (Douglas Williams) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 01:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi-- I play bridge....does that count? :) What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents what is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of strategy, of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the real politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant is that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten army to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to win a long and terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their often wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. ...and I would add, the minds of adults. Cheers, Doug On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" wrote: Greg? -? Valerie back-channeled me: Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. Valerie and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality"? - whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and 'imaginary' .? it's all the same. so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a theoretical framework. phillip From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 06:49:02 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (greg.a.thompson@gmail.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 07:49:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities of play. Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. But maybe I've got that wrong? Greg Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > Hi-- > > I play bridge....does that count? :) > > What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents what is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of strategy, of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the real politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant is that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten army to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to win a long and > terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their often wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > > We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > > Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > > No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > > ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > > Cheers, > Doug > > > > > On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" wrote: > > > Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > > Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > > Valerie > > and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality" - > > whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > > so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a theoretical framework. > > phillip From lucarixi@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 06:59:01 2013 From: lucarixi@gmail.com (Luca Rischbieter) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:59:01 -0200 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: << Imagination is a new formation that is not present in the consciousness of the very young child, is totally absent in animals, and represents a specifically human form of conscious activity. Like all functions of consciousness, it originally arises from action. The old adage that children?s play is imagination in action can be reversed: we can say that imagination in adolescents and schoolchildren is play without action. >> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1933/play.htm 2013/10/22 > Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of > adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two > along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities > of play. > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. > > But maybe I've got that wrong? > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > Hi-- > > > > I play bridge....does that count? :) > > > > What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing > past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents what > is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be > shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and > feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available > for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because > they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of strategy, > of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the real > politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of > Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle > of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant is > that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten army > to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to win a > long and > > terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their often > wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to > treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced > familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had > come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > > > > We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of > ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form > and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and > towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And > sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we > come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > > > > > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > > > > Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to > dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. > Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > > > > No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand > years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he > will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > > > > ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > > > > Cheers, > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > > > > > Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > > > > Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > > > > Valerie > > > > and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical > mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain > perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality" - > > > > whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is > perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever > the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and > 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > > > > so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar > opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a > theoretical framework. > > > > phillip > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Tue Oct 22 07:00:23 2013 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 14:00:23 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>, <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A1CA5@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> At this point in this long and interesting thread, in resisting the thesis that adults don't play we've dissected play into its symbolic and representational elements, and therefore found it to be ubiquitous in human affairs. Doug--with wonderful examples--goes on to observe that although play may be undertaken without broader purpose, it rehearses adult competencies. Alternative to resisting the thesis that adults don't play, a poststructural analysis might recognize adulthood as a social role defined (at least in part) by abjuration of play (and more generally of all that is frivolous). The saving grace, in this case, is that few "adults," chronologically defined, occupy the subjectivity of adultness so completely as to be circumscribed by it. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Douglas Williams Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:32 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? Hi-- I play bridge....does that count? :) What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents what is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of strategy, of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the real politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant is that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten army to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to win a long and terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their often wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. ...and I would add, the minds of adults. Cheers, Doug On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" wrote: Greg? -? Valerie back-channeled me: Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. Valerie and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality"? - whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and 'imaginary' .? it's all the same. so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a theoretical framework. phillip From daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 07:04:57 2013 From: daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com (Daniel Hyman) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:04:57 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, As a musician who plays Mozart, Shostakovich, and a number of the other usual suspects, I'd like to stress that not all symbolic play is verbal, nor necessarily game-related. In many cases music has associated lyrics, or programs (e.g., the Beethoven "Pastorale" or the Berlioz "Symphonie Fantastique"), but often not. Perhaps (to paraphrase a favorite '70s poster about drugs) reality is for people who can't handle music... On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 9:49 AM, wrote: > Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of > adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two > along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities > of play. > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. > > But maybe I've got that wrong? > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > Hi-- > > > > I play bridge....does that count? :) > > > > What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing > past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents what > is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be > shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and > feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available > for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because > they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of strategy, > of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the real > politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of > Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle > of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant is > that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten army > to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to win a > long and > > terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their often > wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to > treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced > familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had > come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > > > > We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of > ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form > and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and > towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And > sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we > come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > > > > > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > > > > Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to > dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. > Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > > > > No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand > years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he > will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > > > > ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > > > > Cheers, > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > > > > > Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > > > > Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > > > > Valerie > > > > and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical > mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain > perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality" - > > > > whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is > perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever > the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and > 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > > > > so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar > opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a > theoretical framework. > > > > phillip > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 08:00:37 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:00:37 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greg, Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the question: Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* [?] of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the sake of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw recently attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, context] The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and school becomes an arena of development] In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took place, whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic functional practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, sedimented] thought." The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, THE REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, verbal, and logical level." Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there is another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and *understanding*. Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding moves FROM the internal directed outwards? I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and models. The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to the realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and understanding] Larry On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: > Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of > adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two > along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities > of play. > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. > > But maybe I've got that wrong? > Greg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > Hi-- > > > > I play bridge....does that count? :) > > > > What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing > past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents what > is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be > shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and > feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available > for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because > they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of strategy, > of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the real > politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of > Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle > of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant is > that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten army > to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to win a > long and > > terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their often > wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to > treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced > familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had > come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > > > > We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of > ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form > and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and > towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And > sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we > come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > > > > > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > > > > Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to > dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. > Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > > > > No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand > years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he > will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > > > > ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > > > > Cheers, > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > > > > > Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > > > > Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > > > > Valerie > > > > and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical > mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain > perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and "reality" - > > > > whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is > perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever > the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' and > 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > > > > so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar > opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work as a > theoretical framework. > > > > phillip > > From fkessel@unm.edu Tue Oct 22 13:54:40 2013 From: fkessel@unm.edu (Frank Kessel) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:54:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] On Vivian Paley -- Symbolic Dev and play Message-ID: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> MIKE & CO: Once-upon-a-long-time-ago -- and as you may (or may not!) remember -- we had a Vivian-P-inspired symposium at SRCD . . . coincidentally the last time it was held in Seattle. Another coincidence -- I'm teaching a course on "Play" this semester where we're reading two of her more recent books. Which is why I had easy access to this -- the LCHC Newsletter that emerged from that symposium. One or more of you may find at least the closing, audience-member comments/commentary interesting . . . if only for historical reasons! FRANK (KESSEL) ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:38 AM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Symbolic Dev and play I am still away from home, but near email. While musing in the woods I was wondering where the query on recent research in cultural historical vein had gotten to. All I saw before disappearing from the grid was references to Vyg himself. Then I started to think about the work of Vivian Paley which I should think offers a plenitude of compelling examples relevant to this issue. Was this work discussed and I missed it? Mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Paley LCHC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 3200730 bytes Desc: Paley LCHC.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131022/e75bf950/attachment-0001.pdf From fkessel@unm.edu Tue Oct 22 13:54:40 2013 From: fkessel@unm.edu (Frank Kessel) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:54:40 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] On Vivian Paley -- Symbolic Dev and play Message-ID: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> MIKE & CO: Once-upon-a-long-time-ago -- and as you may (or may not!) remember -- we had a Vivian-P-inspired symposium at SRCD . . . coincidentally the last time it was held in Seattle. Another coincidence -- I'm teaching a course on "Play" this semester where we're reading two of her more recent books. Which is why I had easy access to this -- the LCHC Newsletter that emerged from that symposium. One or more of you may find at least the closing, audience-member comments/commentary interesting . . . if only for historical reasons! FRANK (KESSEL) ________________________________________ From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:38 AM To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu Subject: [Xmca-l] Symbolic Dev and play I am still away from home, but near email. While musing in the woods I was wondering where the query on recent research in cultural historical vein had gotten to. All I saw before disappearing from the grid was references to Vyg himself. Then I started to think about the work of Vivian Paley which I should think offers a plenitude of compelling examples relevant to this issue. Was this work discussed and I missed it? Mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Paley LCHC.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 3200730 bytes Desc: Paley LCHC.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131022/e75bf950/attachment-0003.pdf From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 14:03:38 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 22:03:38 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Historical Materialism London Conference 2013 In-Reply-To: <52659A97.3070306@brucerob.eu> References: <52659A07.5040804@brucerob.eu> <52659A97.3070306@brucerob.eu> Message-ID: Thank you for this, Bruce. http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/ On 21 October 2013 22:20, Bruce Robinson wrote: > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: > Date: > From: > > > > > > The following papers will be of interest to XMCAers and feature a few > familiar names. > > *Activity Theory: from Lev* > > *Vygotsky to Evald Ilyenkov* > > Chair: Adam Hanieh > > Alex Levant, The Subject of Activity Theory: A CHAT with Ilyenkov > > Vesa Oittinen > > Peter Jones, Vygotsky, Marxism and Pavlov's Reflexology > > Brecht de Smet, Labor Struggles in Sadat City: Workplaces in/of Revolution > > *Soviet Marxism and Socialist* > > *Humanism* > > Chair: Gregory Schwartz > > > Hannah Proctor, Abstraction:Utopian or Scientific? SovietPsychologists in > Central Asia inthe wake of the First Five Year > > Plan > > The full programme is on the HM website. Sadly, I will miss this > conference for the first time in years as I have to be in Germany. > > Bruce R > > > > > From huw.softdesigns@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 14:03:38 2013 From: huw.softdesigns@gmail.com (Huw Lloyd) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 22:03:38 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fwd: Historical Materialism London Conference 2013 In-Reply-To: <52659A97.3070306@brucerob.eu> References: <52659A07.5040804@brucerob.eu> <52659A97.3070306@brucerob.eu> Message-ID: Thank you for this, Bruce. http://www.historicalmaterialism.org/ On 21 October 2013 22:20, Bruce Robinson wrote: > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: > Date: > From: > > > > > > The following papers will be of interest to XMCAers and feature a few > familiar names. > > *Activity Theory: from Lev* > > *Vygotsky to Evald Ilyenkov* > > Chair: Adam Hanieh > > Alex Levant, The Subject of Activity Theory: A CHAT with Ilyenkov > > Vesa Oittinen > > Peter Jones, Vygotsky, Marxism and Pavlov's Reflexology > > Brecht de Smet, Labor Struggles in Sadat City: Workplaces in/of Revolution > > *Soviet Marxism and Socialist* > > *Humanism* > > Chair: Gregory Schwartz > > > Hannah Proctor, Abstraction:Utopian or Scientific? SovietPsychologists in > Central Asia inthe wake of the First Five Year > > Plan > > The full programme is on the HM website. Sadly, I will miss this > conference for the first time in years as I have to be in Germany. > > Bruce R > > > > > From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 14:44:39 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:44:39 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: Larry, Deeply appreciate your thoughts here. Yes, is play lost like a child's "baby teeth" and/or what comes up in its place? -greg On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg, > Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the > question: > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. > This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* [?] > of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the sake > of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. > > I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw recently > attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, > context] > > The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of > *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and school > becomes an arena of development] > In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took place, > whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and > what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic functional > practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, > sedimented] thought." > > The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting > stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. > > Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, THE > REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL > perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, verbal, > and logical level." > > Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there is > another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? > > Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies > graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. > "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. > Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and > *understanding*. > Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding moves > FROM the internal directed outwards? > I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical > image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and > models. > The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to the > realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and > understanding] > Larry > > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: > > > Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of > > adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two > > along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities > > of play. > > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic > Development. > > > > But maybe I've got that wrong? > > Greg > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > > > Hi-- > > > > > > I play bridge....does that count? :) > > > > > > What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing > > past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents > what > > is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be > > shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and > > feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available > > for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because > > they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of > strategy, > > of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the > real > > politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of > > Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle > > of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant > is > > that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten > army > > to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to > win a > > long and > > > terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their > often > > wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to > > treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced > > familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had > > come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > > > > > > We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of > > ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form > > and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and > > towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And > > sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we > > come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > > > > > > > > > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > > > > > > Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to > > dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. > > Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > > > > > > No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand > > years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he > > will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > > > > > > ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > > > > > > Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > > > > > > Valerie > > > > > > and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical > > mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain > > perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and > "reality" - > > > > > > whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is > > perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever > > the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' > and > > 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > > > > > > so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar > > opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work > as a > > theoretical framework. > > > > > > phillip > > > > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu Tue Oct 22 14:49:27 2013 From: cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu (CAITLIN WUBBENA) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:49:27 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree that play allows us to construct realities (through play, we're able to imagine ourselves in new situations and are then able to construct realities based on that "practice"). I think Vygotsky does a good job of setting that up. Kendall Walton also states that those who play develop better people skills (empathy, etc). I'm looking forward to reading the Luria article. I'm curious, from that point, how play could be conceived as enabling people to do better work. Maybe there's a way to make a "play as developing human capital" argument. The set up is definitely there and I think we've begun to touch upon that question. But I'm curious if there is more explicit evidence that proves this suspicion I have that people who play more in childhood are more comfortable "playing" with intellectual ideas later in life and, thus, produce better academic products. On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > Greg, > Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the > question: > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. > This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* [?] > of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the sake > of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. > > I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw recently > attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, > context] > > The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of > *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and school > becomes an arena of development] > In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took place, > whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and > what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic functional > practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, > sedimented] thought." > > The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting > stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. > > Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, THE > REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL > perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, verbal, > and logical level." > > Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there is > another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? > > Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies > graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. > "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. > Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and > *understanding*. > Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding moves > FROM the internal directed outwards? > I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical > image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and > models. > The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to the > realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and > understanding] > Larry > > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: > > > Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of > > adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two > > along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities > > of play. > > Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > > developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > > development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of > > glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic > Development. > > > > But maybe I've got that wrong? > > Greg > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: > > > > > Hi-- > > > > > > I play bridge....does that count? :) > > > > > > What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing > > past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents > what > > is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be > > shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and > > feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available > > for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because > > they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of > strategy, > > of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the > real > > politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of > > Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle > > of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant > is > > that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten > army > > to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to > win a > > long and > > > terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their > often > > wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to > > treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced > > familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had > > come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > > > > > > We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of > > ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form > > and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and > > towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And > > sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we > > come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > > > > > > > > > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > > > > > > Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to > > dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. > > Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > > > > > > No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand > > years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he > > will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > > > > > > ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < > > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > > > > > > Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > > > > > > Valerie > > > > > > and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical > > mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain > > perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and > "reality" - > > > > > > whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is > > perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever > > the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' > and > > 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > > > > > > so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar > > opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work > as a > > theoretical framework. > > > > > > phillip > > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 15:41:04 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:41:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: On Vivian Paley -- Symbolic Dev and play In-Reply-To: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the reminder, Frank. One of those events I have totally forgotten about. Interesting comments all along. That was the seminar where Judy Lindfors taught me that research is re-search, is the process of searching again. A good lesson all around. And the issues in the discussion remain, of course. mike On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > MIKE & CO: Once-upon-a-long-time-ago -- and as you may (or may not!) > remember -- we had a Vivian-P-inspired symposium at SRCD . . . > coincidentally the last time it was held in Seattle. Another coincidence > -- I'm teaching a course on "Play" this semester where we're reading two of > her more recent books. Which is why I had easy access to this -- the LCHC > Newsletter that emerged from that symposium. One or more of you may find > at least the closing, audience-member comments/commentary interesting . . . > if only for historical reasons! FRANK (KESSEL) > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:38 AM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Symbolic Dev and play > > I am still away from home, but near email. While musing in the woods I was > wondering where the query on recent research in cultural historical vein > had gotten to. All I saw before disappearing from the grid was references > to Vyg himself. > > Then I started to think about the work of Vivian Paley which I should think > offers a plenitude of compelling examples relevant to this issue. Was this > work discussed and I missed it? > > Mike > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 15:41:04 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:41:04 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: On Vivian Paley -- Symbolic Dev and play In-Reply-To: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the reminder, Frank. One of those events I have totally forgotten about. Interesting comments all along. That was the seminar where Judy Lindfors taught me that research is re-search, is the process of searching again. A good lesson all around. And the issues in the discussion remain, of course. mike On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > MIKE & CO: Once-upon-a-long-time-ago -- and as you may (or may not!) > remember -- we had a Vivian-P-inspired symposium at SRCD . . . > coincidentally the last time it was held in Seattle. Another coincidence > -- I'm teaching a course on "Play" this semester where we're reading two of > her more recent books. Which is why I had easy access to this -- the LCHC > Newsletter that emerged from that symposium. One or more of you may find > at least the closing, audience-member comments/commentary interesting . . . > if only for historical reasons! FRANK (KESSEL) > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:38 AM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Symbolic Dev and play > > I am still away from home, but near email. While musing in the woods I was > wondering where the query on recent research in cultural historical vein > had gotten to. All I saw before disappearing from the grid was references > to Vyg himself. > > Then I started to think about the work of Vivian Paley which I should think > offers a plenitude of compelling examples relevant to this issue. Was this > work discussed and I missed it? > > Mike > > From lpscholar2@gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:47:45 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:47:45 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: On Vivian Paley -- Symbolic Dev and play In-Reply-To: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Frank, Thank you for this fascinating *re-search*. I took your advice and went to the discussion section. I was struck by what Vivian wrote on page 77. [it converges with our recent discussion on the transformation from the graphic functional TO the formal systematic accounts. Listen to how Vivian re-turns FROM the formal towards the graphic-functional. "I notice as I go into the older classes to discuss the issue of FAIRNESS, [formal] they first deal with it DISTANTLY, abstractly. As they get closer and closer to telling the stories in which they and the other students are PARTICIPATING, in scenes where rejection is taking place, as they can bring onto a stage, children will say, ' Well, all right, let's just pretend something. Pretend that I'm a worst friend; and on and on'" Seems to be the world of *as if* Interesting convergences Larry On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > MIKE & CO: Once-upon-a-long-time-ago -- and as you may (or may not!) > remember -- we had a Vivian-P-inspired symposium at SRCD . . . > coincidentally the last time it was held in Seattle. Another coincidence > -- I'm teaching a course on "Play" this semester where we're reading two of > her more recent books. Which is why I had easy access to this -- the LCHC > Newsletter that emerged from that symposium. One or more of you may find > at least the closing, audience-member comments/commentary interesting . . . > if only for historical reasons! FRANK (KESSEL) > > > > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu > on behalf of mike cole > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:38 AM > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu > Subject: [Xmca-l] Symbolic Dev and play > > I am still away from home, but near email. While musing in the woods I was > wondering where the query on recent research in cultural historical vein > had gotten to. All I saw before disappearing from the grid was references > to Vyg himself. > > Then I started to think about the work of Vivian Paley which I should think > offers a plenitude of compelling examples relevant to this issue. Was this > work discussed and I missed it? > > Mike > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Oct 23 04:17:38 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 11:17:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa [mailto:joselia.rosa@unisul.br] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:12 AM To: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory 9 days to the final submission deadline: October 31st: http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory ISSN 2179-2534 Poi?sis, the Journal of Graduate Program in Education (Master Degree) of University of Southern of Santa Catarina advertises those interested in publishing scientific articles on Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory that is receiving papers for a thematic dossier. The aim is disseminate scientific production addressed to the Mathematics in educational context, based on Historical-Cultural Theory, whose matrix is the historical and dialectic materialism (Vigotski, Leontiev, Galperin, Davidov, Elkonin, among others). Deadline for submissions: October, 31st 2013. The edition will be published in December 2013. The articles/issues may be sent in English, Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese. The home page is: http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis Submissions should be done only by the website, after registering, addressed in "Comments for the editor" to "Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory". E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br ORGANIZERS: Manoel Oriosvaldo de Moura - University of S?o Paulo (USP) Ademir Damazio - University of Extreme South of Santa Catarina (UNESC) Jos?lia Euz?bio da Rosa - University of Souther of Santa Catarina (UNISUL) E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Oct 23 04:40:27 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 14:40:27 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I appreciate an advice of one or two main works/books/ articles on maths education based on CHAT. Especially for primary school years. Thanks Ulvi 2013/10/23 Peter Smagorinsky > > > From: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa [mailto:joselia.rosa@unisul.br] > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:12 AM > To: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa > Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > Historical-Cultural Theory > > 9 days to the final submission deadline: October 31st: > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > Historical-Cultural Theory > > ISSN 2179-2534 > > Poi?sis, the Journal of Graduate Program in Education (Master Degree) of > University of Southern of Santa Catarina advertises those interested in > publishing scientific articles on Studies in Mathematics Education based on > Historical-Cultural Theory that is receiving papers for a thematic dossier. > The aim is disseminate scientific production addressed to the Mathematics > in educational context, based on Historical-Cultural Theory, whose matrix > is the historical and dialectic materialism (Vigotski, Leontiev, Galperin, > Davidov, Elkonin, among others). > Deadline for submissions: October, 31st 2013. > The edition will be published in December 2013. > The articles/issues may be sent in English, Spanish, French, Italian and > Portuguese. > The home page is: > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > Submissions should be done only by the website, after registering, > addressed in "Comments for the editor" to "Studies in Mathematics Education > based on Historical-Cultural Theory". > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > ORGANIZERS: > Manoel Oriosvaldo de Moura - University of S?o Paulo (USP) > Ademir Damazio - University of Extreme South of Santa Catarina (UNESC) > Jos?lia Euz?bio da Rosa - University of Souther of Santa Catarina (UNISUL) > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Wed Oct 23 06:47:59 2013 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:47:59 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A26B2@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Ulvi, V. V. Davydov addressed mathematics education directly: Davydov, V.V. (1975). The psychological characteristics of the "prenumerical" period of mathematics instruction. In L. P. Steffe (Ed.), Soviet studies in the psychology of learning and teaching mathematics (Vol. 7, pp. 109-206). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. Davydov, V. V. (1990). Types of generalization in instruction: Logical and psychological problems in the structuring of school curricula. Reston, VA: National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. (Original work published 1972). His work remains current in mathematics education thought today, owing (among others) to the work of Jean Schmittau (I'm attaching a preprint of her 2012 review): Schmittau, J. (1993). Vygotskian scientific concepts: Implications for mathematics education. In J. Schmittau & L. Taylor, (Eds.), Focus on Learning Problems in Mathematics, 15(2,3), 29-39. Schmittau, J. (2004). Vygotskian theory and mathematics education: Resolving the conceptual-procedural dichotomy. European Journal of Psychology of Education, 19, 19-43. Schmittau, J. (2005). The development of algebraic thinking: A Vygotskian perspective. Zentralblatt Fur Didaktik Der Mathematik, 37, 16-22. Schmittau, J. (2012). The challenge of developmental instruction. A review of Problems of Developmental Instruction: A Theoretical and Experimental Psychological Study, by V.V. Davydov, New York: Nova Science, 2008. Mind, Culture, and Activity, As well, Luis Radford and K. Yoshida have addressed Vygotskyan ideas in mathematics education: Radford, L. (1999). On culture and mind: A post-Vygotskian semiotic perspective with an example from Greek mathematical thought.(pre-print No. 2/1999). Ontario, Canada: Universit? Laurentienne. Yoshida, K. (2004). Understanding how the concept of fractions develops: A Vygotskian perspective. Proceedings of the 28th Conference of the International Group for the Psychology of Mathematics Education, Vol. 4, 473-480. [includes an analysis of the Vygotskyan/Hegelian idea of sublation] http://www.emis.de/proceedings/PME28/RR/RR204_Yoshida.pdf I'm sure there is much more current work, but this is a start. Please share any off-line references you receive. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:40 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory I appreciate an advice of one or two main works/books/ articles on maths education based on CHAT. Especially for primary school years. Thanks Ulvi 2013/10/23 Peter Smagorinsky > > > From: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa [mailto:joselia.rosa@unisul.br] > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:12 AM > To: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa > Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > Historical-Cultural Theory > > 9 days to the final submission deadline: October 31st: > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > Historical-Cultural Theory > > ISSN 2179-2534 > > Poi?sis, the Journal of Graduate Program in Education (Master Degree) > of University of Southern of Santa Catarina advertises those > interested in publishing scientific articles on Studies in Mathematics > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory that is receiving papers for a thematic dossier. > The aim is disseminate scientific production addressed to the > Mathematics in educational context, based on Historical-Cultural > Theory, whose matrix is the historical and dialectic materialism > (Vigotski, Leontiev, Galperin, Davidov, Elkonin, among others). > Deadline for submissions: October, 31st 2013. > The edition will be published in December 2013. > The articles/issues may be sent in English, Spanish, French, Italian > and Portuguese. > The home page is: > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > Submissions should be done only by the website, after registering, > addressed in "Comments for the editor" to "Studies in Mathematics > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory". > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > ORGANIZERS: > Manoel Oriosvaldo de Moura - University of S?o Paulo (USP) Ademir > Damazio - University of Extreme South of Santa Catarina (UNESC) > Jos?lia Euz?bio da Rosa - University of Souther of Santa Catarina > (UNISUL) > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SchmittauDavydovBkRev2012.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 71980 bytes Desc: SchmittauDavydovBkRev2012.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131023/4cbee4ed/attachment.obj From ulvi.icil@gmail.com Wed Oct 23 07:01:14 2013 From: ulvi.icil@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?VWx2aSDEsMOnaWw=?=) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:01:14 +0300 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory In-Reply-To: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A26B2@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> References: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A26B2@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thank you very much David. 2013/10/23 David H Kirshner > Ulvi, > > V. V. Davydov addressed mathematics education directly: > > Davydov, V.V. (1975). The psychological characteristics of the > "prenumerical" period of mathematics instruction. In L. P. Steffe (Ed.), > Soviet studies in the psychology of learning and teaching mathematics (Vol. > 7, pp. 109-206). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. > > Davydov, V. V. (1990). Types of generalization in instruction: Logical and > psychological problems in the structuring of school curricula. Reston, VA: > National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. (Original work published 1972). > > > His work remains current in mathematics education thought today, owing > (among others) to the work of Jean Schmittau (I'm attaching a preprint of > her 2012 review): > > Schmittau, J. (1993). Vygotskian scientific concepts: Implications for > mathematics education. In J. Schmittau & L. Taylor, (Eds.), Focus on > Learning Problems in Mathematics, 15(2,3), 29-39. > > Schmittau, J. (2004). Vygotskian theory and mathematics education: > Resolving the conceptual-procedural dichotomy. European Journal of > Psychology of Education, 19, 19-43. > > Schmittau, J. (2005). The development of algebraic thinking: A Vygotskian > perspective. Zentralblatt Fur Didaktik Der Mathematik, 37, 16-22. > > Schmittau, J. (2012). The challenge of developmental instruction. A review > of Problems of Developmental Instruction: A Theoretical and Experimental > Psychological Study, by V.V. Davydov, New York: Nova Science, 2008. Mind, > Culture, and Activity, > > > As well, Luis Radford and K. Yoshida have addressed Vygotskyan ideas in > mathematics education: > > Radford, L. (1999). On culture and mind: A post-Vygotskian semiotic > perspective with an example from Greek mathematical thought.(pre-print No. > 2/1999). Ontario, Canada: Universit? Laurentienne. > > Yoshida, K. (2004). Understanding how the concept of fractions develops: > A Vygotskian perspective. Proceedings of the 28th Conference of the > International Group for the Psychology of Mathematics Education, Vol. 4, > 473-480. [includes an analysis of the Vygotskyan/Hegelian idea of > sublation] http://www.emis.de/proceedings/PME28/RR/RR204_Yoshida.pdf > > > I'm sure there is much more current work, but this is a start. Please > share any off-line references you receive. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:40 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory > > I appreciate an advice of one or two main works/books/ articles on maths > education based on CHAT. Especially for primary school years. > Thanks > Ulvi > > > > 2013/10/23 Peter Smagorinsky > > > > > > > From: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa [mailto:joselia.rosa@unisul.br] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:12 AM > > To: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa > > Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > > Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > 9 days to the final submission deadline: October 31st: > > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > > > CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > > Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > ISSN 2179-2534 > > > > Poi?sis, the Journal of Graduate Program in Education (Master Degree) > > of University of Southern of Santa Catarina advertises those > > interested in publishing scientific articles on Studies in Mathematics > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory that is receiving papers > for a thematic dossier. > > The aim is disseminate scientific production addressed to the > > Mathematics in educational context, based on Historical-Cultural > > Theory, whose matrix is the historical and dialectic materialism > > (Vigotski, Leontiev, Galperin, Davidov, Elkonin, among others). > > Deadline for submissions: October, 31st 2013. > > The edition will be published in December 2013. > > The articles/issues may be sent in English, Spanish, French, Italian > > and Portuguese. > > The home page is: > > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > Submissions should be done only by the website, after registering, > > addressed in "Comments for the editor" to "Studies in Mathematics > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory". > > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > > > ORGANIZERS: > > Manoel Oriosvaldo de Moura - University of S?o Paulo (USP) Ademir > > Damazio - University of Extreme South of Santa Catarina (UNESC) > > Jos?lia Euz?bio da Rosa - University of Souther of Santa Catarina > > (UNISUL) > > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 23 08:47:21 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory In-Reply-To: References: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A26B2@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: That is a wondeerful sources of references, David! Shouldnt we put it on a web page somewhere, perhaps one that provides similar kinds of generative collections of different people's work? Making all the documents web accessible is a larger issue. Schmittau has an article on her use of Davydov's ideas in MCA to be added to the list. mike On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thank you very much David. > > > > 2013/10/23 David H Kirshner > > > Ulvi, > > > > V. V. Davydov addressed mathematics education directly: > > > > Davydov, V.V. (1975). The psychological characteristics of the > > "prenumerical" period of mathematics instruction. In L. P. Steffe (Ed.), > > Soviet studies in the psychology of learning and teaching mathematics > (Vol. > > 7, pp. 109-206). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. > > > > Davydov, V. V. (1990). Types of generalization in instruction: Logical > and > > psychological problems in the structuring of school curricula. Reston, > VA: > > National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. (Original work published > 1972). > > > > > > His work remains current in mathematics education thought today, owing > > (among others) to the work of Jean Schmittau (I'm attaching a preprint of > > her 2012 review): > > > > Schmittau, J. (1993). Vygotskian scientific concepts: Implications for > > mathematics education. In J. Schmittau & L. Taylor, (Eds.), Focus on > > Learning Problems in Mathematics, 15(2,3), 29-39. > > > > Schmittau, J. (2004). Vygotskian theory and mathematics education: > > Resolving the conceptual-procedural dichotomy. European Journal of > > Psychology of Education, 19, 19-43. > > > > Schmittau, J. (2005). The development of algebraic thinking: A Vygotskian > > perspective. Zentralblatt Fur Didaktik Der Mathematik, 37, 16-22. > > > > Schmittau, J. (2012). The challenge of developmental instruction. A > review > > of Problems of Developmental Instruction: A Theoretical and Experimental > > Psychological Study, by V.V. Davydov, New York: Nova Science, 2008. > Mind, > > Culture, and Activity, > > > > > > As well, Luis Radford and K. Yoshida have addressed Vygotskyan ideas in > > mathematics education: > > > > Radford, L. (1999). On culture and mind: A post-Vygotskian semiotic > > perspective with an example from Greek mathematical thought.(pre-print > No. > > 2/1999). Ontario, Canada: Universit? Laurentienne. > > > > Yoshida, K. (2004). Understanding how the concept of fractions develops: > > A Vygotskian perspective. Proceedings of the 28th Conference of the > > International Group for the Psychology of Mathematics Education, Vol. 4, > > 473-480. [includes an analysis of the Vygotskyan/Hegelian idea of > > sublation] http://www.emis.de/proceedings/PME28/RR/RR204_Yoshida.pdf > > > > > > I'm sure there is much more current work, but this is a start. Please > > share any off-line references you receive. > > > > David > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:40 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > I appreciate an advice of one or two main works/books/ articles on maths > > education based on CHAT. Especially for primary school years. > > Thanks > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > 2013/10/23 Peter Smagorinsky > > > > > > > > > > > From: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa [mailto:joselia.rosa@unisul.br] > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:12 AM > > > To: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa > > > Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > > > Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > > > 9 days to the final submission deadline: October 31st: > > > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > > > > > CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > > > Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > > > ISSN 2179-2534 > > > > > > Poi?sis, the Journal of Graduate Program in Education (Master Degree) > > > of University of Southern of Santa Catarina advertises those > > > interested in publishing scientific articles on Studies in Mathematics > > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory that is receiving papers > > for a thematic dossier. > > > The aim is disseminate scientific production addressed to the > > > Mathematics in educational context, based on Historical-Cultural > > > Theory, whose matrix is the historical and dialectic materialism > > > (Vigotski, Leontiev, Galperin, Davidov, Elkonin, among others). > > > Deadline for submissions: October, 31st 2013. > > > The edition will be published in December 2013. > > > The articles/issues may be sent in English, Spanish, French, Italian > > > and Portuguese. > > > The home page is: > > > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > > Submissions should be done only by the website, after registering, > > > addressed in "Comments for the editor" to "Studies in Mathematics > > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory". > > > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > > > > > ORGANIZERS: > > > Manoel Oriosvaldo de Moura - University of S?o Paulo (USP) Ademir > > > Damazio - University of Extreme South of Santa Catarina (UNESC) > > > Jos?lia Euz?bio da Rosa - University of Souther of Santa Catarina > > > (UNISUL) > > > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > > > > > > > From dkirsh@lsu.edu Wed Oct 23 11:10:47 2013 From: dkirsh@lsu.edu (David H Kirshner) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 18:10:47 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory In-Reply-To: References: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A26B2@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1F3A303FB8B8A9429CE2720B7C8D4B73405A2B72@BY2PRD0610MB354.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Thanks Mike. I'm not sure what you mean by providing "similar kinds of generative collections of different people's work." What I provided is (a very small beginning of) a list of references relating sociocultural scholarship to mathematics education. Perhaps it would be useful for the XMCA website to house updatable lists of this sort for the various areas in which sociocultural scholarship is applied to practice. David -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 10:47 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory That is a wondeerful sources of references, David! Shouldnt we put it on a web page somewhere, perhaps one that provides similar kinds of generative collections of different people's work? Making all the documents web accessible is a larger issue. Schmittau has an article on her use of Davydov's ideas in MCA to be added to the list. mike On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Ulvi ??il wrote: > Thank you very much David. > > > > 2013/10/23 David H Kirshner > > > Ulvi, > > > > V. V. Davydov addressed mathematics education directly: > > > > Davydov, V.V. (1975). The psychological characteristics of the > > "prenumerical" period of mathematics instruction. In L. P. Steffe > > (Ed.), Soviet studies in the psychology of learning and teaching > > mathematics > (Vol. > > 7, pp. 109-206). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. > > > > Davydov, V. V. (1990). Types of generalization in instruction: > > Logical > and > > psychological problems in the structuring of school curricula. > > Reston, > VA: > > National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. (Original work > > published > 1972). > > > > > > His work remains current in mathematics education thought today, > > owing (among others) to the work of Jean Schmittau (I'm attaching a > > preprint of her 2012 review): > > > > Schmittau, J. (1993). Vygotskian scientific concepts: Implications > > for mathematics education. In J. Schmittau & L. Taylor, (Eds.), > > Focus on Learning Problems in Mathematics, 15(2,3), 29-39. > > > > Schmittau, J. (2004). Vygotskian theory and mathematics education: > > Resolving the conceptual-procedural dichotomy. European Journal of > > Psychology of Education, 19, 19-43. > > > > Schmittau, J. (2005). The development of algebraic thinking: A > > Vygotskian perspective. Zentralblatt Fur Didaktik Der Mathematik, 37, 16-22. > > > > Schmittau, J. (2012). The challenge of developmental instruction. A > review > > of Problems of Developmental Instruction: A Theoretical and > > Experimental Psychological Study, by V.V. Davydov, New York: Nova Science, 2008. > Mind, > > Culture, and Activity, > > > > > > As well, Luis Radford and K. Yoshida have addressed Vygotskyan ideas > > in mathematics education: > > > > Radford, L. (1999). On culture and mind: A post-Vygotskian semiotic > > perspective with an example from Greek mathematical > > thought.(pre-print > No. > > 2/1999). Ontario, Canada: Universit? Laurentienne. > > > > Yoshida, K. (2004). Understanding how the concept of fractions develops: > > A Vygotskian perspective. Proceedings of the 28th Conference of the > > International Group for the Psychology of Mathematics Education, > > Vol. 4, 473-480. [includes an analysis of the Vygotskyan/Hegelian > > idea of sublation] > > http://www.emis.de/proceedings/PME28/RR/RR204_Yoshida.pdf > > > > > > I'm sure there is much more current work, but this is a start. > > Please share any off-line references you receive. > > > > David > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto: > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Ulvi I?il > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:40 AM > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: FW: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > I appreciate an advice of one or two main works/books/ articles on > > maths education based on CHAT. Especially for primary school years. > > Thanks > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > 2013/10/23 Peter Smagorinsky > > > > > > > > > > > From: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa [mailto:joselia.rosa@unisul.br] > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:12 AM > > > To: Joselia Euzebio Da Rosa > > > Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based > > > on Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > > > 9 days to the final submission deadline: October 31st: > > > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > > > > > CALL FOR PAPERS: Studies in Mathematics Education based on > > > Historical-Cultural Theory > > > > > > ISSN 2179-2534 > > > > > > Poi?sis, the Journal of Graduate Program in Education (Master > > > Degree) of University of Southern of Santa Catarina advertises > > > those interested in publishing scientific articles on Studies in > > > Mathematics Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory that is > > > receiving papers > > for a thematic dossier. > > > The aim is disseminate scientific production addressed to the > > > Mathematics in educational context, based on Historical-Cultural > > > Theory, whose matrix is the historical and dialectic materialism > > > (Vigotski, Leontiev, Galperin, Davidov, Elkonin, among others). > > > Deadline for submissions: October, 31st 2013. > > > The edition will be published in December 2013. > > > The articles/issues may be sent in English, Spanish, French, > > > Italian and Portuguese. > > > The home page is: > > > http://www.portaldeperiodicos.unisul.br/index.php/Poiesis > > > Submissions should be done only by the website, after registering, > > > addressed in "Comments for the editor" to "Studies in Mathematics > > > Education based on Historical-Cultural Theory". > > > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > > > > > ORGANIZERS: > > > Manoel Oriosvaldo de Moura - University of S?o Paulo (USP) Ademir > > > Damazio - University of Extreme South of Santa Catarina (UNESC) > > > Jos?lia Euz?bio da Rosa - University of Souther of Santa Catarina > > > (UNISUL) > > > E-mail: revistapoiesis@unisul.br > > > > > > > > From smago@uga.edu Wed Oct 23 12:37:30 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 19:37:30 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] for those dissatisfied with the current state of peer review Message-ID: I find the traditional peer review system to work fine, but I know others don't. so..... http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57608751-76/academia.edu-acquires-plasmyd-to-let-peers-review-papers/ From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 23 21:17:31 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 21:17:31 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Polls are open Message-ID: The polls are open for choosing an article for discussion from the most recent issue of MCA. Vote and then think about contributing to the discussion. mike The polls are ready at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Journal/poll.html From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 05:43:29 2013 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 08:43:29 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: for those dissatisfied with the current state of peer review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In all likely hood Academia.edu peer review will be ignored. I am intrigued by the idea of open source peer review and find academica.edu very useful as a new scholar. The SEO on academia gets my work out there. But.... It seems that basing the reviews on the clout of reviewers is open to even greater bias than traditional peer review. Is clout going to be determined within academia.edu so more active users are ranked higher? Will it base it on JIF which we know can often have inherent bias (San Francisco Deceleration on Research Assessment) and reinforce the Matthew effect. Will using just the "top scientists" w mean that female and scholars of color will not have an equal voice? Algorithms are usually proprietary and secret. I hope Academia.edu is transparent. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I find the traditional peer review system to work fine, but I know others > don't. so..... > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57608751-76/academia.edu-acquires-plasmyd-to-let-peers-review-papers/ > > > > -- J. Gregory McVerry, PhD Assistant Professor Southern Connecticut State University twitter: jgmac1106 From jgregmcverry@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 05:43:29 2013 From: jgregmcverry@gmail.com (Greg Mcverry) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 08:43:29 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: for those dissatisfied with the current state of peer review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In all likely hood Academia.edu peer review will be ignored. I am intrigued by the idea of open source peer review and find academica.edu very useful as a new scholar. The SEO on academia gets my work out there. But.... It seems that basing the reviews on the clout of reviewers is open to even greater bias than traditional peer review. Is clout going to be determined within academia.edu so more active users are ranked higher? Will it base it on JIF which we know can often have inherent bias (San Francisco Deceleration on Research Assessment) and reinforce the Matthew effect. Will using just the "top scientists" w mean that female and scholars of color will not have an equal voice? Algorithms are usually proprietary and secret. I hope Academia.edu is transparent. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > I find the traditional peer review system to work fine, but I know others > don't. so..... > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57608751-76/academia.edu-acquires-plasmyd-to-let-peers-review-papers/ > > > > -- J. Gregory McVerry, PhD Assistant Professor Southern Connecticut State University twitter: jgmac1106 From r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk Thu Oct 24 06:00:43 2013 From: r.j.s.parsons@open.ac.uk (rjsp2) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:00:43 +0100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are open In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <526919FB.4020207@open.ac.uk> There must be a reason why so often the one with the least interesting title has the most interesting abstract. Rob On 24/10/2013 05:17, mike cole wrote: > The polls are open for choosing an article for discussion from the most > recent issue of MCA. Vote and then think about > contributing to the discussion. > mike > > The polls are ready at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Journal/poll.html -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302). From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 06:17:11 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 06:17:11 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Polls are open In-Reply-To: <526919FB.4020207@open.ac.uk> References: <526919FB.4020207@open.ac.uk> Message-ID: Which is that, Rob? Mike On Thursday, October 24, 2013, rjsp2 wrote: > There must be a reason why so often the one with the least interesting > title has the most interesting abstract. > > Rob > > On 24/10/2013 05:17, mike cole wrote: > >> The polls are open for choosing an article for discussion from the most >> recent issue of MCA. Vote and then think about >> contributing to the discussion. >> mike >> >> The polls are ready at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/**Journal/poll.html >> > > -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an > exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC > 038302). > From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Thu Oct 24 08:20:56 2013 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:20:56 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: A propos this thread, I invite folks to peruse performingtheworld.org and read the attached announcement and call for proposals for the 8th Performing the World conference to be held in NYC October 10-12, 2014?with the theme "How Shall We Become?" The gathering brings together hundreds who are doing/studying (and even theorizing) play and performance with people of all ages. If you want to see adults play, this is one place to do it. Lois Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution Lois Holzman, Ph.D. Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford St. Brooklyn NY 11217 Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 fax 718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org eastsideinstitute.org performingtheworld.org loisholzman.org allstars.org http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:49 PM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > I agree that play allows us to construct realities (through play, we're > able to imagine ourselves in new situations and are then able to construct > realities based on that "practice"). I think Vygotsky does a good job of > setting that up. Kendall Walton also states that those who play develop > better people skills (empathy, etc). I'm looking forward to reading the > Luria article. > > I'm curious, from that point, how play could be conceived as enabling > people to do better work. Maybe there's a way to make a "play as developing > human capital" argument. The set up is definitely there and I think we've > begun to touch upon that question. But I'm curious if there is more > explicit evidence that proves this suspicion I have that people who play > more in childhood are more comfortable "playing" with intellectual ideas > later in life and, thus, produce better academic products. > > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Larry Purss wrote: > >> Greg, >> Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the >> question: >> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of >> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. >> This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* [?] >> of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the sake >> of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. >> >> I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw recently >> attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, >> context] >> >> The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of >> *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and school >> becomes an arena of development] >> In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took place, >> whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and >> what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic functional >> practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, >> sedimented] thought." >> >> The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting >> stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. >> >> Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, THE >> REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL >> perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, verbal, >> and logical level." >> >> Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there is >> another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? >> >> Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies >> graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. >> "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. >> Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and >> *understanding*. >> Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding moves >> FROM the internal directed outwards? >> I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical >> image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and >> models. >> The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to the >> realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and >> understanding] >> Larry >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: >> >>> Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of >>> adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two >>> along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities >>> of play. >>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of >>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic >> Development. >>> >>> But maybe I've got that wrong? >>> Greg >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: >>> >>>> Hi-- >>>> >>>> I play bridge....does that count? :) >>>> >>>> What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing >>> past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents >> what >>> is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be >>> shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and >>> feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available >>> for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because >>> they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of >> strategy, >>> of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the >> real >>> politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of >>> Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle >>> of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant >> is >>> that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten >> army >>> to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to >> win a >>> long and >>>> terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their >> often >>> wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to >>> treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced >>> familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had >>> come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. >>>> >>>> We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of >>> ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form >>> and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and >>> towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And >>> sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we >>> come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf >>>> >>>> Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to >>> dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. >>> Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: >>>> >>>> No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand >>> years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he >>> will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. >>>> >>>> ...and I would add, the minds of adults. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doug >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: >>>> >>>> Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. >>>> >>>> Valerie >>>> >>>> and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical >>> mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain >>> perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and >> "reality" - >>>> >>>> whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is >>> perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever >>> the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' >> and >>> 'imaginary' . it's all the same. >>>> >>>> so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar >>> opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work >> as a >>> theoretical framework. >>>> >>>> phillip >>> >>> >> From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Thu Oct 24 10:29:17 2013 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:29:17 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's the attachment again...seems to have been deleted. Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution Lois Holzman, Ph.D. Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford St. Brooklyn NY 11217 Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 fax 718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org eastsideinstitute.org performingtheworld.org loisholzman.org allstars.org http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ On Oct 24, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Lois Holzman wrote: > A propos this thread, I invite folks to peruse performingtheworld.org and read the attached announcement and call for proposals for the 8th Performing the World conference to be held in NYC October 10-12, 2014?with the theme "How Shall We Become?" The gathering brings together hundreds who are doing/studying (and even theorizing) play and performance with people of all ages. If you want to see adults play, this is one place to do it. > Lois > > > > Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution > > Lois Holzman, Ph.D. > Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford St. > Brooklyn NY 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX > tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 > fax 718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > eastsideinstitute.org > performingtheworld.org > loisholzman.org > allstars.org > http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:49 PM, CAITLIN WUBBENA wrote: > >> I agree that play allows us to construct realities (through play, we're >> able to imagine ourselves in new situations and are then able to construct >> realities based on that "practice"). I think Vygotsky does a good job of >> setting that up. Kendall Walton also states that those who play develop >> better people skills (empathy, etc). I'm looking forward to reading the >> Luria article. >> >> I'm curious, from that point, how play could be conceived as enabling >> people to do better work. Maybe there's a way to make a "play as developing >> human capital" argument. The set up is definitely there and I think we've >> begun to touch upon that question. But I'm curious if there is more >> explicit evidence that proves this suspicion I have that people who play >> more in childhood are more comfortable "playing" with intellectual ideas >> later in life and, thus, produce better academic products. >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Larry Purss wrote: >> >>> Greg, >>> Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the >>> question: >>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of >>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic Development. >>> This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* [?] >>> of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the sake >>> of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. >>> >>> I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw recently >>> attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, >>> context] >>> >>> The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of >>> *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and school >>> becomes an arena of development] >>> In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took place, >>> whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and >>> what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic functional >>> practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, >>> sedimented] thought." >>> >>> The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting >>> stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. >>> >>> Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, THE >>> REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL >>> perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, verbal, >>> and logical level." >>> >>> Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there is >>> another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? >>> >>> Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies >>> graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. >>> "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. >>> Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and >>> *understanding*. >>> Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding moves >>> FROM the internal directed outwards? >>> I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical >>> image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and >>> models. >>> The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to the >>> realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and >>> understanding] >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of >>>> adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or two >>>> along the way that involves a radical transformation in the possibilities >>>> of play. >>>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >>>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >>>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze of >>>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic >>> Development. >>>> >>>> But maybe I've got that wrong? >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi-- >>>>> >>>>> I play bridge....does that count? :) >>>>> >>>>> What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment echoing >>>> past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents >>> what >>>> is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to be >>>> shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and >>>> feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more available >>>> for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely because >>>> they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of >>> strategy, >>>> of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the >>> real >>>> politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of >>>> Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the Battle >>>> of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington meant >>> is >>>> that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten >>> army >>>> to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to >>> win a >>>> long and >>>>> terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their >>> often >>>> wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to >>>> treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced >>>> familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they had >>>> come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. >>>>> >>>>> We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of >>>> ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given form >>>> and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and >>>> towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And >>>> sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where we >>>> come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf >>>>> >>>>> Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to >>>> dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. >>>> Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: >>>>> >>>>> No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand >>>> years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he >>>> will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. >>>>> >>>>> ...and I would add, the minds of adults. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doug >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < >>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: >>>>> >>>>> Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. >>>>> >>>>> Valerie >>>>> >>>>> and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical >>>> mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain >>>> perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and >>> "reality" - >>>>> >>>>> whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is >>>> perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, whatever >>>> the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' >>> and >>>> 'imaginary' . it's all the same. >>>>> >>>>> so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar >>>> opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work >>> as a >>>> theoretical framework. >>>>> >>>>> phillip >>>> >>>> >>> > From mpacker@uniandes.edu.co Thu Oct 24 11:30:21 2013 From: mpacker@uniandes.edu.co (Martin John Packer) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:30:21 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: Travel Grants - Investigadores residentes en UK a Colombia References: <006001ced0ca$8945b060$9bd11120$@edu.co> Message-ID: <464D0C05-FDE4-4603-908F-FCAE0419A273@uniandes.edu.co> Any sociocultural researchers in the UK who'd like to visit Colombia for 1-3 months? Martin Travel Grants http://www.britishcouncil.org/society/science/researcher-links Call open 15th October 2013 Deadline 23:59 GMT 24th November 2013 Researchers that reside in the UK can apply for funding to spend up to 3 months at a university or research institution in one of the nineteen partner countries, and those residing in one of the partner countries (see below) can apply for funding to come to the UK. Different countries have different priority areas and these can be found in the guidelines. If no priority areas are specified, all research areas are covered. The countries involved at this stage are; Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, Morocco, Egypt, Qatar, South Africa, Nigeria, Russia (Humanities and Social Sciences only), Turkey, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Pakistan, Thailand, Indonesia, South Korea, Vietnam and Bangladesh. For this call placements involving the United States are also eligible, in specific areas which focus on using the humanities and social sciences in an interdisciplinary environment. The guidelines are available at the bottom of this page, and the application form can be accessed through this website:http://www.formstack.com/forms/?1590151-YevNGeqTmu From smago@uga.edu Thu Oct 24 11:37:19 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:37:19 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Registration is OPEN for the JoLLE 2014 Spring Conference, y'all! Message-ID: http://www.coe.uga.edu/events/2013/07/02/february-14-15-2014-jolle-2014-conference/ Register now while seats are available! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Flyer-JoLLE-Conference.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 252742 bytes Desc: Flyer-JoLLE-Conference.pdf Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131024/f72ec7ce/attachment.obj From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:08:02 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:08:02 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lois, The title reminds me of a favorite line from Lloyd Alexander's Castle of Llyr: "Child, child, do you not see? For each of us comes a time when we must be more than what we are." -greg On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Lois Holzman < lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > A propos this thread, I invite folks to peruse performingtheworld.org and > read the attached announcement and call for proposals for the 8th > Performing the World conference to be held in NYC October 10-12, 2014?with > the theme "How Shall We Become?" The gathering brings together hundreds who > are doing/studying (and even theorizing) play and performance with people > of all ages. If you want to see adults play, this is one place to do it. > Lois > > > > Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and > http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution > > Lois Holzman, Ph.D. > Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy > 104-106 South Oxford St. > Brooklyn NY 11217 > Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX > tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 > fax 718.797.3966 > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org > eastsideinstitute.org > performingtheworld.org > loisholzman.org > allstars.org > http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:49 PM, CAITLIN WUBBENA > wrote: > > > I agree that play allows us to construct realities (through play, we're > > able to imagine ourselves in new situations and are then able to > construct > > realities based on that "practice"). I think Vygotsky does a good job of > > setting that up. Kendall Walton also states that those who play develop > > better people skills (empathy, etc). I'm looking forward to reading the > > Luria article. > > > > I'm curious, from that point, how play could be conceived as enabling > > people to do better work. Maybe there's a way to make a "play as > developing > > human capital" argument. The set up is definitely there and I think we've > > begun to touch upon that question. But I'm curious if there is more > > explicit evidence that proves this suspicion I have that people who play > > more in childhood are more comfortable "playing" with intellectual ideas > > later in life and, thus, produce better academic products. > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Larry Purss > wrote: > > > >> Greg, > >> Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the > >> question: > >> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > >> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > >> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze > of > >> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic > Development. > >> This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* > [?] > >> of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the > sake > >> of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. > >> > >> I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw > recently > >> attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, > >> context] > >> > >> The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of > >> *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and > school > >> becomes an arena of development] > >> In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took > place, > >> whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and > >> what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic > functional > >> practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, > >> sedimented] thought." > >> > >> The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting > >> stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. > >> > >> Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, > THE > >> REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL > >> perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, > verbal, > >> and logical level." > >> > >> Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there > is > >> another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? > >> > >> Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies > >> graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. > >> "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. > >> Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and > >> *understanding*. > >> Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding > moves > >> FROM the internal directed outwards? > >> I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical > >> image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and > >> models. > >> The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to the > >> realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and > >> understanding] > >> Larry > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: > >> > >>> Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of > >>> adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or > two > >>> along the way that involves a radical transformation in the > possibilities > >>> of play. > >>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over > >>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the > >>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze > of > >>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic > >> Development. > >>> > >>> But maybe I've got that wrong? > >>> Greg > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi-- > >>>> > >>>> I play bridge....does that count? :) > >>>> > >>>> What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment > echoing > >>> past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents > >> what > >>> is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it to > be > >>> shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and > >>> feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more > available > >>> for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely > because > >>> they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of > >> strategy, > >>> of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the > >> real > >>> politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of > >>> Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the > Battle > >>> of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington > meant > >> is > >>> that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten > >> army > >>> to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to > >> win a > >>> long and > >>>> terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their > >> often > >>> wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders to > >>> treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with practiced > >>> familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they > had > >>> come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. > >>>> > >>>> We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of > >>> ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given > form > >>> and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, and > >>> towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. And > >>> sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where > we > >>> come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf > >>>> > >>>> Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not to > >>> dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. > >>> Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: > >>>> > >>>> No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand > >>> years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, > he > >>> will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. > >>>> > >>>> ...and I would add, the minds of adults. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Doug > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < > >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: > >>>> > >>>> Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. > >>>> > >>>> Valerie > >>>> > >>>> and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical > >>> mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain > >>> perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and > >> "reality" - > >>>> > >>>> whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is > >>> perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, > whatever > >>> the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' > >> and > >>> 'imaginary' . it's all the same. > >>>> > >>>> so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar > >>> opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work > >> as a > >>> theoretical framework. > >>>> > >>>> phillip > >>> > >>> > >> > > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From greg.a.thompson@gmail.com Thu Oct 24 20:10:41 2013 From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com (Greg Thompson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:10:41 -0600 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: Or differently playfully, Nietzsche's: "Become who you are" -greg On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Lois, > The title reminds me of a favorite line from Lloyd Alexander's Castle of > Llyr: > > "Child, child, do you not see? For each of us comes a time when we must be > more than what we are." > > -greg > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Lois Holzman < > lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: > >> A propos this thread, I invite folks to peruse performingtheworld.organd read the attached announcement and call for proposals for the 8th >> Performing the World conference to be held in NYC October 10-12, 2014?with >> the theme "How Shall We Become?" The gathering brings together hundreds who >> are doing/studying (and even theorizing) play and performance with people >> of all ages. If you want to see adults play, this is one place to do it. >> Lois >> >> >> >> Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and >> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution >> >> Lois Holzman, Ph.D. >> Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy >> 104-106 South Oxford St. >> Brooklyn NY 11217 >> Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX >> tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 >> fax 718.797.3966 >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >> eastsideinstitute.org >> performingtheworld.org >> loisholzman.org >> allstars.org >> http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:49 PM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >> wrote: >> >> > I agree that play allows us to construct realities (through play, we're >> > able to imagine ourselves in new situations and are then able to >> construct >> > realities based on that "practice"). I think Vygotsky does a good job of >> > setting that up. Kendall Walton also states that those who play develop >> > better people skills (empathy, etc). I'm looking forward to reading the >> > Luria article. >> > >> > I'm curious, from that point, how play could be conceived as enabling >> > people to do better work. Maybe there's a way to make a "play as >> developing >> > human capital" argument. The set up is definitely there and I think >> we've >> > begun to touch upon that question. But I'm curious if there is more >> > explicit evidence that proves this suspicion I have that people who play >> > more in childhood are more comfortable "playing" with intellectual ideas >> > later in life and, thus, produce better academic products. >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Larry Purss >> wrote: >> > >> >> Greg, >> >> Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the >> >> question: >> >> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >> >> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >> >> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze >> of >> >> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic >> Development. >> >> This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* >> [?] >> >> of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the >> sake >> >> of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. >> >> >> >> I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw >> recently >> >> attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, >> >> context] >> >> >> >> The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of >> >> *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and >> school >> >> becomes an arena of development] >> >> In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took >> place, >> >> whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and >> >> what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic >> functional >> >> practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, >> >> sedimented] thought." >> >> >> >> The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting >> >> stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. >> >> >> >> Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, >> THE >> >> REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL >> >> perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, >> verbal, >> >> and logical level." >> >> >> >> Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there >> is >> >> another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? >> >> >> >> Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies >> >> graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. >> >> "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. >> >> Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and >> >> *understanding*. >> >> Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding >> moves >> >> FROM the internal directed outwards? >> >> I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical >> >> image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and >> >> models. >> >> The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to >> the >> >> realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and >> >> understanding] >> >> Larry >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of >> >>> adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or >> two >> >>> along the way that involves a radical transformation in the >> possibilities >> >>> of play. >> >>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >> >>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >> >>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a >> blaze of >> >>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic >> >> Development. >> >>> >> >>> But maybe I've got that wrong? >> >>> Greg >> >>> >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi-- >> >>>> >> >>>> I play bridge....does that count? :) >> >>>> >> >>>> What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment >> echoing >> >>> past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents >> >> what >> >>> is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it >> to be >> >>> shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and >> >>> feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more >> available >> >>> for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely >> because >> >>> they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of >> >> strategy, >> >>> of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the >> >> real >> >>> politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of >> >>> Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the >> Battle >> >>> of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington >> meant >> >> is >> >>> that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten >> >> army >> >>> to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to >> >> win a >> >>> long and >> >>>> terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their >> >> often >> >>> wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders >> to >> >>> treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with >> practiced >> >>> familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they >> had >> >>> come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. >> >>>> >> >>>> We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of >> >>> ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given >> form >> >>> and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, >> and >> >>> towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. >> And >> >>> sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where >> we >> >>> come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf >> >>>> >> >>>> Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not >> to >> >>> dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. >> >>> Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: >> >>>> >> >>>> No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand >> >>> years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from >> now, he >> >>> will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. >> >>>> >> >>>> ...and I would add, the minds of adults. >> >>>> >> >>>> Cheers, >> >>>> Doug >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < >> >>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: >> >>>> >> >>>> Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. >> >>>> >> >>>> Valerie >> >>>> >> >>>> and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical >> >>> mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain >> >>> perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and >> >> "reality" - >> >>>> >> >>>> whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is >> >>> perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, >> whatever >> >>> the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' >> >> and >> >>> 'imaginary' . it's all the same. >> >>>> >> >>>> so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar >> >>> opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work >> >> as a >> >>> theoretical framework. >> >>>> >> >>>> phillip >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor Department of Anthropology 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org Fri Oct 25 05:27:05 2013 From: lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org (Lois Holzman) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:27:05 -0400 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Do adults play? In-Reply-To: References: <7322d4690c9d4b6185d993dccb4e79ac@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <3f9b8c7fee284ca0bac4f165620f830f@DM2PR06MB447.namprd06.prod.outlook.com> <6336BAD1-5442-4837-B828-F1B450C30E99@gmail.com> <1382430713.5796.YahooMailNeo@web164703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <56ED061E-4D65-4A39-9B04-109E2F86ED98@gmail.com> Message-ID: <38D785AD-378D-4992-B600-F8BCBCADC183@eastsideinstitute.org> Thanks, Greg. We thought it would be variously evocative! Some others: And, "We Shall Overcome"..but looking forward to the attitude and practice of performance ? if we are to overcome, we must become. And Vygotsky, "a head taller in play" Lois Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution Lois Holzman, Ph.D. Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy 104-106 South Oxford St. Brooklyn NY 11217 Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 fax 718.797.3966 lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org eastsideinstitute.org performingtheworld.org loisholzman.org allstars.org http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ On Oct 24, 2013, at 11:10 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > Or differently playfully, Nietzsche's: > > "Become who you are" > > -greg > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Greg Thompson wrote: > >> Lois, >> The title reminds me of a favorite line from Lloyd Alexander's Castle of >> Llyr: >> >> "Child, child, do you not see? For each of us comes a time when we must be >> more than what we are." >> >> -greg >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Lois Holzman < >> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org> wrote: >> >>> A propos this thread, I invite folks to peruse performingtheworld.organd read the attached announcement and call for proposals for the 8th >>> Performing the World conference to be held in NYC October 10-12, 2014?with >>> the theme "How Shall We Become?" The gathering brings together hundreds who >>> are doing/studying (and even theorizing) play and performance with people >>> of all ages. If you want to see adults play, this is one place to do it. >>> Lois >>> >>> >>> >>> Don't forget to check out the latest at http://loisholzman.org and >>> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/conceptual-revolution >>> >>> Lois Holzman, Ph.D. >>> Director, East Side Institute for Group and Short Term Psychotherapy >>> 104-106 South Oxford St. >>> Brooklyn NY 11217 >>> Chair, Global Outreach for All Stars Project UX >>> tel. 212.941.8906 ext. 324 >>> fax 718.797.3966 >>> lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org >>> eastsideinstitute.org >>> performingtheworld.org >>> loisholzman.org >>> allstars.org >>> http://esicommunitynews.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:49 PM, CAITLIN WUBBENA >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree that play allows us to construct realities (through play, we're >>>> able to imagine ourselves in new situations and are then able to >>> construct >>>> realities based on that "practice"). I think Vygotsky does a good job of >>>> setting that up. Kendall Walton also states that those who play develop >>>> better people skills (empathy, etc). I'm looking forward to reading the >>>> Luria article. >>>> >>>> I'm curious, from that point, how play could be conceived as enabling >>>> people to do better work. Maybe there's a way to make a "play as >>> developing >>>> human capital" argument. The set up is definitely there and I think >>> we've >>>> begun to touch upon that question. But I'm curious if there is more >>>> explicit evidence that proves this suspicion I have that people who play >>>> more in childhood are more comfortable "playing" with intellectual ideas >>>> later in life and, thus, produce better academic products. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Larry Purss >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg, >>>>> Let's follow your lead or guidance [or invitation]whaen you pose the >>>>> question: >>>>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >>>>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >>>>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a blaze >>> of >>>>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic >>> Development. >>>>> This question poses *play* as the main *character* in earlier *stages* >>> [?] >>>>> of development who then in a blaze of glory leaves the stage for the >>> sake >>>>> of *Sacred Symbolic to take over center stage. >>>>> >>>>> I would like to bring in Luria's article "The Problem" which Huw >>> recently >>>>> attached to explore this entering and leaving the stage [situation, >>>>> context] >>>>> >>>>> The hypothesis is that the dominance of "graphical-functional" forms of >>>>> *knowledge* transform when economic forces of production change [and >>> school >>>>> becomes an arena of development] >>>>> In Luria's words, "We needed to examine how REASONING processes took >>> place, >>>>> whether they were part of the subjects' DIRECT practical EXPERIENCE and >>>>> what changes they underwent when reasoning WENT BEYOND graphic >>> functional >>>>> practice and into the REALM of theoretical or FORMALIZED [systematized, >>>>> sedimented] thought." >>>>> >>>>> The next paragraph captures Greg's graphic-functional character exiting >>>>> stage left while "Sacred Symbolic" enters the *play*. >>>>> >>>>> Luria continues, "The next stage was a study of IMAGINATIVE PROCESSES, >>> THE >>>>> REMOVAL OF ONESELF from IMMEDIATE perception [?? M-P would say ALL >>>>> perception involves tradition] and operation on a PURELY symbolic, >>> verbal, >>>>> and logical level." >>>>> >>>>> Now my further question [invitation to dialogue] is to wonder if there >>> is >>>>> another *act* on this stage of consciousness?? >>>>> >>>>> Perception AS *mediated* [not immediate] implies >>>>> graphic-functional orienting as involving *traditions*. >>>>> "Sacred Symbolic" requires *imaginal realms*. >>>>> Is there a need for reflecting on the notions of *knowledge* and >>>>> *understanding*. >>>>> Knowledge appropriated FROM the external inwards while understanding >>> moves >>>>> FROM the internal directed outwards? >>>>> I am using the inside/outside as metaphorical to IMAGINE a graphical >>>>> image. In reality experience moves in EXCESS [m-p] of all metaphors and >>>>> models. >>>>> The move to distinquish knowledge and understanding may return us to >>> the >>>>> realm of *play* [Huw's reminder that play is *as if* knowledge and >>>>> understanding] >>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 AM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, Doug, you speak to the heart of the CHAT Matter, is the play of >>>>>> adults the same as the play of children? Or is there a development or >>> two >>>>>> along the way that involves a radical transformation in the >>> possibilities >>>>>> of play. >>>>>> Seems like Vygotsky and mead would suggest that play changes over >>>>>> developmental time. But it seems like vygotskys narrative of the >>>>>> development of play has the main character, play,going down in a >>> blaze of >>>>>> glory - sacrificing itself for the sake of the Sacred Symbolic >>>>> Development. >>>>>> >>>>>> But maybe I've got that wrong? >>>>>> Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 22, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Douglas Williams >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi-- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I play bridge....does that count? :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is play? In all species, a rehearsal; a symbolic enactment >>> echoing >>>>>> past and future activity. In humans, a possible world that represents >>>>> what >>>>>> is, what was, and what could be, in a symbolic form that enables it >>> to be >>>>>> shaped through thinking about rules, relationships, perceptions, and >>>>>> feelings. Games are the sum of human experience, in a form more >>> available >>>>>> for introspection and renovation than the "real" world, precisely >>> because >>>>>> they are games. Bridge, for example, is a game of coalitions, of >>>>> strategy, >>>>>> of psychology, of deception, none of which is so far distant from the >>>>> real >>>>>> politics of offices and of the streets. On another level, the Duke of >>>>>> Wellington famously (and for some, inexplicably) observed that the >>> Battle >>>>>> of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. What Wellington >>> meant >>>>> is >>>>>> that the rehearsal of adversity and courage in sport enabled a beaten >>>>> army >>>>>> to persevere in following a strategy that enabled that beaten army to >>>>> win a >>>>>> long and >>>>>>> terrible battle. Wellington meant that field sport games, in their >>>>> often >>>>>> wanton brutality and sudden reversals, prepared his field commanders >>> to >>>>>> treat the even more wanton brutality and reversal of war with >>> practiced >>>>>> familiarity and undaunted spirit, in the certain belief that as they >>> had >>>>>> come from behind to win at Eton, so they would at Waterloo. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are a symbolic species. We live and breathe symbols. We dream of >>>>>> ourselves and each other, and out of our dreams, the world is given >>> form >>>>>> and substance. Communities take shape, symbolic interactions begin, >>> and >>>>>> towers of iron and concrete expand outward and upward from doodles. >>> And >>>>>> sometimes, we just remind ourselves in games of who we are, and where >>> we >>>>>> come from. I lay an offering of that kind of play before you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~DCIII/120F%20Course%20Reader/CR5_Geertz_Deep%20Play.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Adults not play? What is the business of minds such as ours, if not >>> to >>>>>> dream of the impossible, and make it real? Or, in the words of a Mr. >>>>>> Church, who was confronted with similar doubts: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand >>>>>> years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from >>> now, he >>>>>> will continue to make glad the heart of childhood. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...and I would add, the minds of adults. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Doug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, October 21, 2013 5:38 PM, "White, Phillip" < >>>>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greg - Valerie back-channeled me: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Something quantum physics going on here in a gnomic zen sort of way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Valerie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and in considering what she wrote, i am now wondering if classical >>>>>> mechanical physics isn't being used here in xmca to explain >>>>>> perception/consciousness and the distinction between "play" and >>>>> "reality" - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> whereas, for our 'mind', in the world of quantum physics, what is >>>>>> perceived - regardless theater, performance, movies, television, >>> whatever >>>>>> the media - the mind does not discriminate between what we call 'real' >>>>> and >>>>>> 'imaginary' . it's all the same. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so perhaps it's a false duality to think of play and real as polar >>>>>> opposites, but rather multiple genres of performance would better work >>>>> as a >>>>>> theoretical framework. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> phillip >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> Visiting Assistant Professor >> Department of Anthropology >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> Brigham Young University >> Provo, UT 84602 >> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson >> > > > > -- > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor > Department of Anthropology > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower > Brigham Young University > Provo, UT 84602 > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson From lchcmike@gmail.com Fri Oct 25 11:00:42 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 11:00:42 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: A new monography about Vygotsky's theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you. I will pass along to the word to the xmca membership. mike cole On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:58 AM, ?????????? ???????????????? ?????????? (???????) wrote: > Dear Dr. Michael Cole, > please, see attachment and/or our site > http://www.app.kharkov.ua/p/blog-page_9.html#sgk1 > Best regards, > Egorova Eleonora, > president of Association of Professional Psychologists (Kharkov, Ukraine), > PhD > > > The book is published in Russian. The date-line in English: Kasvinov S. G. > (2013). *L. S. Vygotsky's system. Book 1. Teaching/learning and > development of children and teenagers*. - Kharkov (Ukraine): Rider. > > *SUMMARY* > > Only the *zone of proximal development* (ZPD) can be > fruitful and beneficial area of school and pre-school training or work for > a psychologist and psychotherapist if they work with a child or a > teenager. ZPD - it's what the child (teenager) hasn't embraced yet, but is > quite able of doing that in joint work with adults (parents, psychologists > or teachers). Education in the ZPD (developmentally appropriate) is an > essential way of reaching the full (entire) potential of your child. It's > also a way of helping him (scaffolding learning). The *zone of proximal > development* is the basic concept of Vygotsky's theory of learning and > development, which he didn't finish completely and explicitely. But his > accomplished theory can be traced in his works. And this research reveales > it in the practically applicable form. The methods to build up this theory > are borrowed from Vygotrsky. He could have done that exactly the same way. > The outcomes are published in this book, which also indicated that the > theory has a direct relevance to the development psychology data and > suggests a new look at the training and development methods researches > (including new methods of modeling). > > The study found that Vygotsky distinguished between the *individual > ZPD* of a particular child (teenager) and the *age ZPD* of children > (teenagers) at the same level of development. As opposed to the individual > ZPD, the age ZPD can be used to solve general issues (problems) of > psychology and pedagogy. That includes the designing of efficient school > innovations (innovation schools) and reforms in the educational system, the > new standards, tests, curriculum, textbooks and teaching aids. Each age ZPD > contains a certain part of culture (cultural context of child development), > including specific training (education) stage with its content and methods. > Each age ZPD of a child or an adolescent is displayed by a certain > psychological peculiarity in his behavior (all of them are mentioned in the > book). The listing of age ZPDs covers completely the training and normal > development of a child from birth to 18 years. Directly the system of the > ZPD application can bring us to resolutions of the most efficient methods > in the work of a psychologist or a teacher with children or teenagers in > the specific age. The best educational content can be identified for > children to get it easier and better, and with greater interest. Some good > examples of using of age ZPD manifest in ideas of successful innovations > for school. We consider here the most important psychological signs of > infant's readiness for school and the transition from elementary school to > the next stage of education: they are the signs of specific age ZPD. > > This work can be useful for experts in the domain of > developmental psychology, sociocultural (cultural-historical) psychology, > history of psychology, educational psychology, coaching, research and > practical pedagogy, developmental education, Kamehameha Elementary > Education Project (KEEP), home schooling, early childhood development and > education. And for employees of innovation educational content and methods > institutions, the authors (developers) of innovative schools and > educational reforms (innovations), new standards and programs, tests, > textbooks and teaching materials, methods and techniques. For creative > teachers, psychologists, coaches, psychotherapists working with children or > teenagers. For designers of psychologists and psychotherapists methods of > work with children or teenagers. For teachers of psychology (professors, > lecturers) and gifted undergraduate and graduate students. And for highly > educated parents. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kasvinov-SistemaVygotskogo-1_Oblozhka.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2004218 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131025/688c6c8f/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kasvinov-SistemaVygotskogo-1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2542265 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131025/688c6c8f/attachment-0001.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kasvinov-SistemaVygotskogo-1.doc Type: application/msword Size: 2729984 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131025/688c6c8f/attachment-0001.doc From lpscholar2@gmail.com Fri Oct 25 14:03:32 2013 From: lpscholar2@gmail.com (Larry Purss) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:03:32 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: On Vivian Paley -- Symbolic Dev and play In-Reply-To: References: <222f6d0fd3704a90b540d8600ddd7d53@DM2PR07MB255.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Frank, Not sure if I can generate [or encourage] a conversation which took a turn with your attaching the article on Vivian Gussin Paley. You mentioned you are now teaching a course which develops her ideas. I wonder if you could expand on this theme. The article mentions that at age age is when she notices the stratification that emerges in classroom culture. Has she written about why age 8 is the critical turning point [grade 3?] I also wanted to explore her comment on page 67. She wrote, "I imagine the existence of 3 F's in the lexicon of children's lives [fantasy, friendship, and fairness] - then add a fourth F-fear. Yet, it seems to me I give friendship a higher place than fairness and, in so doing, I allow certain children to be made afraid when they are told they can't play. You are not my friend, you can't play with me, certain children are told again and again throughout their school lives. What would happen, I ask myself, if a rule existed that stated clearly, 'You can't say you can't play'? .... The new rule is deceptively simple. We keep debating the loopholes: Questions concerning the ever present FACT OF REJECTION are urgent and many. And what is my story in all this? To end my ambivalence: Is fairness a HIGHER GOOD than friendship? Can the principle of open access be maintained in social choices? These are difficult concepts, played out daily in EVERY classroom. I wonder if there are different responses to her question. What I will add is how deep I believe the theme of "trust/mistrust" within our ways of orienting to the world, is a critical aspect of our well being. Paley's approach generates a sense of trust within the world. I also believe this conversation can speak to Jennifer's article we have been discussing this month on social-emotional learning. It is the composition of *cultural worlds* with principles such as *you can't say you can't play* which is the arena where social-emotional learning *develops* Larry On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Larry Purss wrote: > Frank, > Thank you for this fascinating *re-search*. > I took your advice and went to the discussion section. > I was struck by what Vivian wrote on page 77. [it converges with our > recent discussion on the transformation from the graphic functional TO the > formal systematic accounts. > Listen to how Vivian re-turns FROM the formal towards the > graphic-functional. > > "I notice as I go into the older classes to discuss the issue of FAIRNESS, > [formal] they first deal with it DISTANTLY, abstractly. As they get closer > and closer to telling the stories in which they and the other students are > PARTICIPATING, in scenes where rejection is taking place, as they can bring > onto a stage, children will say, ' Well, all right, let's just pretend > something. Pretend that I'm a worst friend; and on and on'" > > Seems to be the world of *as if* > > Interesting convergences > Larry > > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Frank Kessel wrote: > >> MIKE & CO: Once-upon-a-long-time-ago -- and as you may (or may not!) >> remember -- we had a Vivian-P-inspired symposium at SRCD . . . >> coincidentally the last time it was held in Seattle. Another coincidence >> -- I'm teaching a course on "Play" this semester where we're reading two of >> her more recent books. Which is why I had easy access to this -- the LCHC >> Newsletter that emerged from that symposium. One or more of you may find >> at least the closing, audience-member comments/commentary interesting . . . >> if only for historical reasons! FRANK (KESSEL) >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu >> on behalf of mike cole >> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 5:38 AM >> To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Symbolic Dev and play >> >> I am still away from home, but near email. While musing in the woods I was >> wondering where the query on recent research in cultural historical vein >> had gotten to. All I saw before disappearing from the grid was references >> to Vyg himself. >> >> Then I started to think about the work of Vivian Paley which I should >> think >> offers a plenitude of compelling examples relevant to this issue. Was this >> work discussed and I missed it? >> >> Mike >> >> > From ablunden@mira.net Sat Oct 26 04:32:50 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 22:32:50 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Thinking and Speech Message-ID: <526BA862.8060401@mira.net> Attached is a Word.doc of the LSV CW v.1 version of "Thinking and Speech." (The one published on marxists.org is incomplete and is partly extracted from the 1962 edition). It's easier to search for passages, extract quotes, etc. with the electronic document. It's 1.4Mb so I just hope it gets through the server. Help yourself. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Thinking-and-Speech.doc Type: application/msword Size: 1014272 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l/attachments/20131026/c4870a13/attachment-0001.doc From smago@uga.edu Sat Oct 26 05:04:38 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 12:04:38 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thinking and Speech In-Reply-To: <526BA862.8060401@mira.net> References: <526BA862.8060401@mira.net> Message-ID: Andy, is this the 1987 Plenum translation? Thx,p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 7:33 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Thinking and Speech Attached is a Word.doc of the LSV CW v.1 version of "Thinking and Speech." (The one published on marxists.org is incomplete and is partly extracted from the 1962 edition). It's easier to search for passages, extract quotes, etc. with the electronic document. It's 1.4Mb so I just hope it gets through the server. Help yourself. Andy -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ From ablunden@mira.net Sat Oct 26 05:47:19 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 23:47:19 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thinking and Speech In-Reply-To: References: <526BA862.8060401@mira.net> Message-ID: <526BB9D7.2050000@mira.net> yes ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ Peter Smagorinsky wrote: > Andy, is this the 1987 Plenum translation? Thx,p > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 7:33 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: [Xmca-l] Thinking and Speech > > Attached is a Word.doc of the LSV CW v.1 version of "Thinking and Speech." > (The one published on marxists.org is incomplete and is partly extracted from the 1962 edition). > It's easier to search for passages, extract quotes, etc. with the electronic document. > It's 1.4Mb so I just hope it gets through the server. > Help yourself. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > From goncu@uic.edu Sat Oct 26 08:05:44 2013 From: goncu@uic.edu (Goncu, Artin) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 10:05:44 -0500 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Thinking and Speech In-Reply-To: <526BA862.8060401@mira.net> References: <526BA862.8060401@mira.net> Message-ID: <7c96d2276653065fc8f1c6770678f01b.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Thank you, Andy. Best, ag On Sat, October 26, 2013 6:32 am, Andy Blunden wrote: > Attached is a Word.doc of the LSV CW v.1 version of "Thinking and Speech." > (The one published on marxists.org is incomplete and is partly extracted > from the 1962 edition). > It's easier to search for passages, extract quotes, etc. with the > electronic document. > It's 1.4Mb so I just hope it gets through the server. > Help yourself. > > Andy > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > Artin Goncu, Ph.D Professor, Educational Psychology College of Education M/C 147 1040 W. Harrison St. Chicago, IL 60607 http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm (312) 996-5259 From lchcmike@gmail.com Sat Oct 26 20:56:03 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 20:56:03 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Vote Recently? Message-ID: Seems like we ought to bring voting to a close on the article for discussion and get down to it. Last call to vote!! http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/index.html mike From smago@uga.edu Mon Oct 28 03:23:06 2013 From: smago@uga.edu (Peter Smagorinsky) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:23:06 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] FW: ISCAR 2014 - Supplementary Call for Abstracts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: ISCAR2014 Secretariat [mailto:iscar2014@icmsaust.com.au] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 1:48 AM To: Peter Smagorinsky Subject: ISCAR 2014 - Supplementary Call for Abstracts www.iscar2014.com | Trouble viewing this email? View it online. [http://www.iscar2014.com/news/images/ISCAR_ezine_header.png] In this issue: * Supplementary Call For Abstracts * Registration Now Open * Pre-Conference Workshops * Sponsorship * Key Dates * Contact Us Supplementary Call For Abstracts In response to numerous requests the ISCAR2014 Committee has agreed to add an additional Call for Abstracts opening 15 November 2013 and closing 11 December 2013 to accommodate those participants whose research findings were not complete in September 2013. The abstract program is an integral part of the Congress, it contributes to building the body of knowledge of cultural activity research in a relevant and meaningful way and supports the work of young career researchers. All accepted presenters will have the opportunity to showcase their research to their peers in an international forum, seeking input and testing theories. In addition, all abstracts will be published in the Congress abstract book which will form a lasting legacy of the Congress. Further details will be on the website in November 2013. Registration Now Open Registration is now open for the 4th International Society for Cultural and Activity Research Congress [Click here to submit your abstract] All fees are quoted in Australian Dollars (AUD) and are inclusive of 10% GST. Early Bird Rate Before 11 June 2014 Standard Rate After 11 June 2014 Onsite Rate After 23 September 2014 Member Full Registration $880 $1045 $1210 Non Member Full Registration $990 $1155 $1320 Member Student Full Registration $715 $825 $880 Non Member Student Full Registration $770 $880 $935 Registration entitlements * Entry to all congress sessions and exhibition 30 September to 3 October * Ticket to the Welcome Reception 30 September * Morning and afternoon teas 30 September to 3 October * Lunches 30 September to 3 October * Congress satchel * Congress materials including congress program book PRE-Conference Workshops PhD Day PhD students are invited to send proposals that correspond to one of the congress topics. Two types of proposals will be accepted: posters and dialogue papers (see more information on Proposal Submission for the PhD Students' Day at Congress web-site). In the PhD Students' Day special attention will be given to the PhD thesis, focusing on the different phases of doctoral research. There will be spaces/times for dialogues, presentations and debates, including the participation of Senior Researchers that will discuss parts of PhD students' work and provide some suggestions. For instance, the opportunity of discussing data analysis will be given to doctoral students who have already collected their empirical data. There are also parallel sessions, in small groups. This PhD Students' Day is the second organized by ISCAR (first was at Roma 2011 ISCAR Congress). PhD students are invited to develop further suggestions for the next PhD Students' Day (in 2017), and to send us some feedback after the Roma 2011 event. We hope that all those who will participate will be deeply engaged in this process and will participate actively in the sessions. At least 5 Senior Researchers will be invited to chair the various sessions and participate in the PhD Dialogues. Their names will be announced soon. For further information, please contact PhD Day Organizing Committee Chair Gloria Quinones. Registration entitlements * Entry to sessions on 29 September * Morning and afternoon tea 29 September * Lunch 29 September * Materials CHACDOC Pre-Congress Event for CHACDOC section (Cultural-Historical Approaches to Children's Development and Childhood) of ISCAR. The purpose of the CHACDOC section under ISCAR is to create a forum for researchers who are interested in both cultural-historical research approach and activity theory as a way to unite developmental psychology and childhood research in their research about children. Developmental psychology has often been characterised historically as the study of 'the general child', with a focus on developing a model that can be used to evaluate individual children and their changing relation to society as they grow up. Childhood studies have focused on the study of children anchored in historical time and settings; such approaches are more commonly found within anthropological and sociological traditions, especially those that focus on situated and localised practice with children. Cultural-historical approaches seek to unite the general principles in relation to historical time and place. This pre-congress event is the fifth scientific event of the CHACDOC section under ISCAR and is open to everybody interested (CHACDOC members, PhD students with a special interest in CHACDOC and everybody else). The focus of the Sydney CHACDOC day is imagination and creativity. Vygotsky (2004) wrote that "One of the most important areas of child and educational psychology is the issue of creativity in children, the development of this creativity and its significance to the child's general development and maturation" (p. 11). The relations between imagination and creativity were noted by Vygotsky in not just the arts, but also in science. He found significance of the dialectical relations between imagination and creativity in children's play, the theatre, literature, fairytales, and even in technology. How imagination is crystalised into reality as a creation was also discussed in context of the concept of perezhivanie. The dialectical concept of imagination and creativity is far reaching, and as such we invite interested scholars to attend the pre-Congress CHACDOC in order to progress this concept further, an to share in dialogue and presentation on this concept. Vygotsky, L.S. (2004). Imagination and creativity in childhood. Journal of Russian and East European Psychology, 42 (1), 7-97. CHADOC Section: Professor Mariane Hedegaard Organiser for pre-Congress event: Monash University Registration entitlements * Entry to sessions on 29 September * Morning and afternoon tea 29 September * Lunch 29 September * Materials Sponsorship Congress Supporter [http://www.iscar2014.com/images/sponsors/bes.gif] [http://www.iscar2014.com/images/sponsors/wollongong_uni.gif] The 4th Congress of the International Society for Cultural and Activity Research (ISCAR 2014) Organising Committee welcomes you to consider involvement as a sponsor or exhibitor at the upcoming congress. ISCAR 2014 hopes to attract 400 delegates made up of researchers from a variety of disciplines such as social sciences, humanities, education and health, as well as commerce, information systems, and knowledge management. We will welcome delegates and institutional representatives from more than 70 countries. We can offer a range of exposure for sponsors or exhibitors and more detail can be found in our prospectus below. [http://www.iscar2014.com/images/pdf_broch.png] Click here for the ISCAR 2014 prospectus. [http://www.iscar2014.com/images/pdf_terms.png] Click here for the ISCAR 2014 terms and conditions. For any queries or to secure your exposure at ISCAR 2014 please contact our Sponsorship and Exhibition Account Manager: ISCAR 2014 Sponsorship and Exhibition Secretariat Thomas Howden Sponsorship and Exhibition Account Manager Level 9, 234 George Street Sydney NSW 2000 Tel: 02 9254 5000 Email: thomash@icmsaust.com.au Key Dates Early Bird Registration Rate Closes 11 June 2014 Standard Registration Rate Closes 23 September 2014 ISCAR2014 29 September - 3 October 2014 Contact Us [ICMS Australasia] Congress Secretariat ICMS Australasia Pty Ltd GPO Box 3270 Sydney NSW 2001 Telephone: +61 (0) 9254 5000 Fax: +61 (0) 9251 3552 Email: info@iscar2014.com If you do not wish to receive further email news about this event from the Conference Secretariat, click here and let us know. www.iscar2014.com | Trouble viewing this email? View it online. From lchcmike@gmail.com Tue Oct 29 06:42:05 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 06:42:05 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Fwd: [Air-L] F/T Term Position in Digital Media Studies @ the University of San Francisco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: *Elisabeth Jay Friedman* Date: Monday, October 28, 2013 Subject: [Air-L] F/T Term Position in Digital Media Studies @ the University of San Francisco To: air-l@listserv.aoir.org Digital Media Studies - Full-Time Term Faculty The Department of Media Studies at the University of San Francisco invites applications for a renewable full-time term position at the Assistant Professor level in Digital Media Studies with an emphasis on social justice or civil engagement (subject to budgetary approval). The appointment will begin Fall 2014-Spring 2015. Applicants should have deep knowledge of new media theory, media history, and digital production, and the ability to teach courses in the history of communication technology, digital design, social media, and multimedia production. The successful applicant will also be able to join our full-time faculty teaching rotation for at least one core Media Studies class (such as Introduction to Media Studies, Media Institutions, Media Audience and Research, or Media Theory and Criticism). Applicants should have evidence of excellence in teaching and a research track record with potential for national impact. The position requires an earned Ph.D. in Communication, Media Studies, or a closely related field, in hand by August 31, 2014. Media Studies has 8 full-time faculty and approximately 200 undergraduate majors and minors. The teaching load for a renewable term faculty is three four-unit classes per semester. To Apply: Applicants should submit a letter of application, curriculum vitae, graduate transcripts, evidence of teaching ability (including two sample syllabi, student evaluations, and a statement of teaching philosophy), and three current letters of recommendation to https: gnosis.usfca.edu/search. All of these elements should be submitted electronically in PDF format. Any questions can be sent to MediaStudiesSearch@usfca.edu . Any remaining elements that cannot be submitted electronically should be mailed to: Digital Media Studies Search Committee c/o Bernadette Barker-Plummer Media Studies Department University of San Francisco 2013 Fulton Street San Francisco, CA 9417-1080 U.S.A. Applications must be received by November 30, 2013 in order to ensure full consideration. -- Elisabeth Jay Friedman Professor of Politics and Latin American Studies University of San Francisco _______________________________________________ The Air-L@listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ From lchcmike@gmail.com Wed Oct 30 13:28:08 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:28:08 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Selection of Article for Discussion and... Message-ID: Hi All-- The vote appears to have selected Carol Tomlin, Paul C. Mocombe & Cecile Wright, "Postindustrial capitalism, social class language, and black underachievement" as the article for discussion. We will inform T&F and post as soon as possible. This Saturday there will be a planned power outage in the building that houses the xmca server. FYI mike From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 12:13:43 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:13:43 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] a Latour MOOC Message-ID: This MOOC should be of interest to more than a few of you. Gratis. mike https://www.france-universite-numerique-mooc.fr/courses/SciencesPo/05004/Trimestre_1_2014/about From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 16:58:14 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 16:58:14 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Article for discussion up at LCHC website Message-ID: The article, "Postindustrial capitalism, social class, Language Games, and Black underachievement" is not posted for your reading and discussion pleasure at http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/index.html . Having had the opportunity to vote, now is the time to exercise your right to express your views! mike From ablunden@mira.net Thu Oct 31 17:27:14 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 11:27:14 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion up at LCHC website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5272F562.1070602@mira.net> I think Mike means it is *now* posted for your reading, and the direct link is: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-4-tomlin.pdf Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > The article, "Postindustrial capitalism, social class, Language Games, and > Black underachievement" is not posted for your reading and discussion pleasure at > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/index.html . > > Having had the opportunity to vote, now is the time to exercise your right > to express your views! > > mike > > > From ablunden@mira.net Thu Oct 31 17:27:14 2013 From: ablunden@mira.net (Andy Blunden) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 11:27:14 +1100 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion up at LCHC website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5272F562.1070602@mira.net> I think Mike means it is *now* posted for your reading, and the direct link is: http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-4-tomlin.pdf Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.mira.net/~andy/ mike cole wrote: > The article, "Postindustrial capitalism, social class, Language Games, and > Black underachievement" is not posted for your reading and discussion pleasure at > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/index.html . > > Having had the opportunity to vote, now is the time to exercise your right > to express your views! > > mike > > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 19:48:47 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:48:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion up at LCHC website In-Reply-To: <5272F562.1070602@mira.net> References: <5272F562.1070602@mira.net> Message-ID: Well, not "not" for sure! Thanks Andy. :-) mike On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think Mike means it is *now* posted for your reading, and the direct > link is: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-4-tomlin.pdf > Andy > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> The article, "Postindustrial capitalism, social class, Language Games, and >> Black underachievement" is not posted for your reading and discussion >> pleasure at >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**index.html . >> >> Having had the opportunity to vote, now is the time to exercise your right >> to express your views! >> >> mike >> >> >> >> > > From lchcmike@gmail.com Thu Oct 31 19:48:47 2013 From: lchcmike@gmail.com (mike cole) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:48:47 -0700 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Article for discussion up at LCHC website In-Reply-To: <5272F562.1070602@mira.net> References: <5272F562.1070602@mira.net> Message-ID: Well, not "not" for sure! Thanks Andy. :-) mike On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Andy Blunden wrote: > I think Mike means it is *now* posted for your reading, and the direct > link is: > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-4-tomlin.pdf > Andy > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > > mike cole wrote: > >> The article, "Postindustrial capitalism, social class, Language Games, and >> Black underachievement" is not posted for your reading and discussion >> pleasure at >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**index.html . >> >> Having had the opportunity to vote, now is the time to exercise your right >> to express your views! >> >> mike >> >> >> >> > > From stettega@illinois.edu Thu Oct 31 20:33:49 2013 From: stettega@illinois.edu (Tettegah, Sharon Y) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 03:33:49 +0000 Subject: [Xmca-l] Call for papers on Emotions and Technology Message-ID: <4A6C20A96A1B8C4DABC6911DE887B68F2A13698E@CITESMBX4.ad.uillinois.edu> Could you please distribute? Call for Chapters on: EMOTIONS AND TECHNOLOGY: COMMUNICATION OF FEELINGS FOR, WITH AND THROUGH DIGITAL MEDIA Editors: Sharon Tettegah (University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, USA) Richard E. Ferdig (Kent State University, USA) Technology, learning, cognition and the social-emotional life focus on emotions and affective interactions with and through technology. In some cases, these interactions are user to user supported by the technology. In other situations, these interactions are between the user and the technology. Emotions and social interactions here refers to anger, love, lust, jealousy, hatred demonstrated by either the human or facilitated through the technology. These interactions might happen with very human looking technologies (e.g. avatars, robots) or through everyday technologies (e.g. getting angry at an ATM machine that fails to follow directions). Understanding the ways in which technology affords the mediation of emotions is important for a more enhanced understanding of the student of the mind, learning, teaching, communicating and developing social relationships in the 21st century. A majority of the studies presented in this book will no doubt draw on some of the recent, pervasive, and ubiquitous technologies. Readers can expect to see chapters that include such tools as mobile phones, iPads, digital games, simulations, MOOCs, social media, virtual reality therapies and Web 2.0/3.0 technologies. However, the focus of this book will be at the core of psychological and educational theories and concepts. In other words, the technologies will showcase the interactions; however, the concepts will be relevant and consistent from current technologies to future tools. This will be an edited book in order to compile the best and most recent work in the field. Those areas include but are not limited to: ? Understanding emotions ? The role of affect and technology ? Virtual reality therapies involving emotions ? Modeling emotions in virtual environments ? Emoticons ? Cognitive load and emotions ? Emotions, technology and the brain ? The ways emotion is communicated within and through technology environments Website: www.emotionsandtechnology.net Individuals interested in submitting chapters (5000-8000 words) on the above-suggested topics or other related topics in their area of interest should submit via e-mail (emotionsandtechnology@gmail.com) a 2-4 paragraph manuscript proposal clearly explaining the mission and concerns of the proposed chapter by January 6, 2014. We strongly encourage other topics that have not been listed in our suggested list, particularly if the topic is related to the research area in which you have expertise. You will be notified about your proposal by January 17, 2014. Upon acceptance of your proposal, you will have until April 1, 2014, to prepare your chapter of 5,000-8000 words and 7-10 related terms and their appropriate definitions. Final accepted chapters will be due June 30th, 2014. Guidelines for preparing your paper and terms and definitions will be sent to you upon acceptance of your proposal. Elsevier schedules this book for publication with a 2015 copyright date. Sharon Tettegah, Ph.D. stettega@illinois.edu Department of Curriculum and Instruction Department of Educational Psychology College of Education Beckman Institute of Advanced Science and Technology National Center for Supercomputing, affiliate (217) 265-6206 http://illinois.academia.edu/SharonTettegah http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/faculty/stettega http://faculty.ed.uiuc.edu/stettega/virtualworlds/index.html http://www.beckman.uiuc.edu/directory/index.php?qry=BY_NETID&type=BIO&filter=stettega